There are 21 messages totalling 487 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. the uuencoded stuff

 2. ADS-ANS deadline September 1 (5)

 3. knee high to ? (2)

 4. ADS-ANS deadline September 1 -Reply (4)

 5. secret codes (2)

 6. Knee High

 7. Pot-house politicians (fwd)

 8. My Final Post on uuencoding

 9. pothouse (2)

 10. NOT: ADS-ANS deadline September 1

 11. Fwd: knee-high



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Sep 1995 14:53:49 +1000

From:  Baden Hughes <h9405049[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STUDENT.ANU.EDU.AU>

Subject: the uuencoded stuff



To the rest of the world



To all the rest of those out there on the Linguist list, I'm not sure about

you but no-one seems to have gotten to the bottom of this uuencoded problem

yet. I'm sure there's one simple solution, *don't send uuencoded messages*

then we don't have to fill up our list with a lot of unnecessary rubbish.



If problems do arise with stuff like this I'm sure individuals could mail

individuals.



Baden Hughes



B.HUGHES[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]student.anu.edu.au



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 31 Aug 1995 23:59:30 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: ADS-ANS deadline September 1



At 4:26 PM 8/31/95, Allan Metcalf wrote:

>Dear Betty,

> I don't know what's in your mail. I don't have Pegasus, and I have no idea

>how to decode it manually. Can you send plain text?

> Thanks - Allan Metcalf

Hey, folks; get any version of the uudecoders (uuUndo, uuLite are fine).

UUencoding is becoming a standard for long files that won't fit in the

limited space used by email programs. If you have a Mac, get a copy of

BinHex 4 as well. Use your FTP (Archie?) fetcher.  If the term FTP is

nonsense to you, get any one of the Internet manuals (I use _Internet for

Dummies_) Check your manuals for "attachments". (Welcome to the 'Net!)



On the other hand, we just tried to decode the message and nothing came up

at all. So obviously there is a problem somewhere. Are we all using the

same Captain Video Decoder Rings?



r mckinzey



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Sep 1995 04:55:36 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: ADS-ANS deadline September 1



>   As to why anyone sending a message would send it in a

> uueoncoded format, I'm afraid I haven't figured that one out.



The only reason to use uuencode is to mail a non-text file: either an

executable file (an application of some kind) or a file in a format

like regular Wordperfect (not ASCII). If you have something like a

Wordperfect document that you want to e-mail to somebody without losing

features like underlining, you can uuencode it. The person who receives

it uudecodes it and has the full-featured document, not an ASCII version.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Sep 1995 04:58:13 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: ADS-ANS deadline September 1



> UUencoding is becoming a standard for long files that won't fit in the

> limited space used by email programs.



Uuencode does not compress. There is no reason to use it except for

e-mailing binary files. IT WILL NOT MAKE YOUR FILE SHORTER.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Sep 1995 06:49:32 -0500

From:  wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject: knee high to ?



"a grasshopper" is standard and the only form listed in Wentworth and

Flexner.

Chapman also lists 'bumblebee', 'spit', and 'splinter'. Spears 1st ed.

doesn't list the item and I don't have his 2nd ed. here at home.



Maybe Joan Hall has something from the DARE files.



Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Sep 1995 09:28:00 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer <dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM>

Subject: Re: ADS-ANS deadline September 1 -Reply



For those of you who are also wordslers, does this coded message

business remind you of the Wild man? I repeat: in my opinion, the

majority of the burden of being understood in a written communication

lies on the writer, not the reader. This is why we have composition

101. I just refuse to worry about reading it. I think it's rude,

even.

Molly Dickmeyer

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Sep 1995 10:04:41 -0400

From:  Al Futrell <awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOMER.LOUISVILLE.EDU>

Subject: Re: ADS-ANS deadline September 1



On Fri, 1 Sep 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



> > UUencoding is becoming a standard for long files that won't fit in the

> > limited space used by email programs.

>

> Uuencode does not compress. There is no reason to use it except for

> e-mailing binary files. IT WILL NOT MAKE YOUR FILE SHORTER.

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

Indeed, usually uuencoding makes the file longer!!!





Al Futrell

-- al[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]spieler.comm.louisville.edu

-- http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01

Dept of Communication -- University of Louisville



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Sep 1995 09:13:38 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: ADS-ANS deadline September 1 -Reply



> lies on the writer, not the reader. This is why we have composition

> 101. I just refuse to worry about reading it. I think it's rude,

> even.



I think it was an accident in this case. I also think that it was

probably meant to go just to Allan, not to the whole list. I meant

to say that earlier this morning.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Sep 1995 09:58:01 -0400

From:  "Williams, Kitty" <kwilliams[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RINET.HUNTON.COM>

Subject: secret codes



It may be because I am not particularly interested in information about the

September 1 deadline, but I laughed out loud while reading the messages

about the uuencoded document. Y'all (youse guys) have to admit - it's a

pretty funny saga!

By the way, if those long messages about NEH funding fit into an e-mail

(message), that ADS-ANS deadline message ought to as well.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Sep 1995 10:16:44 -0400

From:  Dennis R Preston <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: ADS-ANS deadline September 1 -Reply



I am especially fond of some of the most recent reponses to coded messages

which suggest that the sender is rude. For old childhood bilinguals like me, I

feel they are uncomfortably close to generally unfortunate US responses to

bilingualism.

If one says something to his or her own speech community, another (even if

only an unratified overhearer [a term I am especially fond of, by the way]),

often responds angrily.

One of my favorite anecdotes comes from an Ann Arbor friend (just to show that

such xenophobia is not limited to what the hoity-toity may think of as

backwater areas). He was out for a stroll in one of the many public green

areas of Ann Arbor. Two young women speaking Arabic (which my friend is capable

of identifying, by the way) came strolling along the path in the other

direction. A local, walking near the young women and in the same direction,

turned to them and said (in what my friend decribed as a most unpleasant tone,

probably an understatement), SPEAK ENGLISH!

While we are on this general topic, did others see in their local newspapers

the notice that a judge in Amarillo TX found a woman guilty of child abuse

because she spoke only Spanish to her pre-school age child at home? Her avowed

purpose (since she is fluent in English) is to create a bilingual child.

Bilinguals, aint no bilinguals around these parts, pardner. What did a former

president say? Millions for elitist second language teaching but not one

penny for lower-status language preservation. If we are not careful, we may

succeed in English Only and end up with the peaceful and unified culture which

Serbo-Croatian provided the former Yugoslavia.

Wow! I must have got up on the Ann Arbor side of the bed today.

[dInIs]

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Sep 1995 09:37:12 CST

From:  Luanne von Schneidemesser <lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>

Subject: Re: knee high to ?



In Message Fri, 1 Sep 1995 06:49:32 -0500,

 wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU> writes:



>"a grasshopper" is standard and the only form listed in Wentworth and

>Flexner.

>Chapman also lists 'bumblebee', 'spit', and 'splinter'. Spears 1st ed.

>doesn't list the item and I don't have his 2nd ed. here at home.

>

>Maybe Joan Hall has something from the DARE files.

>

>Bob Wachal





We are entering 'knee-high to a grasshopper' in vol. 3. It appears

throughout the country, but the form 'knee-high to a duck' is found

chiefly in the South and South Midland.  We also cite 'knee-high to

a pup, jackrabbit, toad, bumblebee, cock-sparrow, June-bug, nothing.'



Luanne



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Sep 1995 09:44:44 CDT

From:  Randy Roberts <robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Knee High



   Like others, knee high to a grasshopper, was most familiar to me in

   Kansas. Maybe it's because we had so many hoppers.



   I've looked through Peter Tamony's files on the phrase and his notes

   lead to several other interesting examples, as follows:



   "Who was it kilt that danged black bull of Pete Darby's, away back

   that when the devil warn't no more than knee high to a toad frog?"

   Thames Williamson, The Woods Colt, A Novel of the Ozark Hills, New

   York, 1933, page 6.



   "Swinging Indian clubs filled the interludes, and two or three artists

   at this business won applause, particularly a 'knee high to a load'

   boy, who was an expert of the first water." The Spirit of the Times,

   New York, 24 March 1877, page 179, column 2.



   R. H. Thornton, An American Glossary, London, 1912. Gives a number of

   variations such as knee high to a bantam, to a duck, and to a toad.



   Slang and Its Analogues has knee high to a mosquito, to a toad, to a

   chaw of tobacco, and others.



   Carey Woofter, "Dialect Words from West Virginia," American Speech,

   May 1927, records knee high to a duck and to a grasshopper.



   Chancey M'Govern, Sarjint Larry An' Friends, Manila, P.I., 1906, page

   95. "Well, sirr, not since I was a shirt-tail kid not knee-high to a

   lame duck . . . "



   Randy Roberts

   University of Missouri-Columbia

   robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Sep 1995 08:29:09 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: ADS-ANS deadline September 1



It's really too bad this comedy act posing as a thread was under such a

misleading title. I almost dumped them before reading! Bethany's is a

voice of sanity in an increasingly jargonized and polarized society --

and I used to do software tech support! It's little enough understood

that each computer domain becomes its own world ("PC" -- ambiguous enough

these days indeed, logically meaning just a personal computer but more

usually found in "what do you have, a PC or a Mac?"; those who are hooked

into networks, usually at work, have yet another terminological overlay;

some go thru a university but others thru commercial providers, etc.). I

say let's send the Bethany/Larry show on the road to perform at computer

faires!



On Thu, 31 Aug 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:



> Thanks, Larry. Let me be sure I understand:

>

> I should find a program called UULite on something called a university

> file server, download it, then -- what/ How do I get the computer

> garbage I received INTO the thing that is going to decode it?

>

> I'm certain you computer literates are sick of reading how little I

> know about all this. But if someone can just help me get started ...

>

> Thanks,

> Bethany

>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Sep 1995 10:22:04 -0600

From:  Marianna Di Paolo <m.dipaolo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M.CC.UTAH.EDU>

Subject: Re: ADS-ANS deadline September 1 -Reply



>If one says something to his or her own speech community, another (even if

>only an unratified overhearer [a term I am especially fond of, by the way]),

>often responds angrily.

>One of my favorite anecdotes comes from an Ann Arbor friend (just to show that

>such xenophobia is not limited to what the hoity-toity may think of as

>backwater areas). He was out for a stroll in one of the many public green

>areas of Ann Arbor. Two young women speaking Arabic (which my friend is capable

>of identifying, by the way) came strolling along the path in the other

>direction. A local, walking near the young women and in the same direction,

>turned to them and said (in what my friend decribed as a most unpleasant tone,

>probably an understatement), SPEAK ENGLISH!

>While we are on this general topic, did others see in their local newspapers

>the notice that a judge in Amarillo TX found a woman guilty of child abuse

>because she spoke only Spanish to her pre-school age child at home? Her avowed

>purpose (since she is fluent in English) is to create a bilingual child.

>Bilinguals, aint no bilinguals around these parts, pardner. What did a former

>president say? Millions for elitist second language teaching but not one

>penny for lower-status language preservation. If we are not careful, we may

>succeed in English Only and end up with the peaceful and unified culture which

>Serbo-Croatian provided the former Yugoslavia.

>Wow! I must have got up on the Ann Arbor side of the bed today.

>[dInIs]

><preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>





Since this recent court decision seems to me to be a more pertinent topic

for this list than uudecoding, I thought I would take the opportunity to

jump in. I was just interviewed by a local radio talk show host about this

incident. Although he is an avowed right-winger and is on a conservative

radio station that broadcasts throughout the region dominated by Salt Lake

City, he agreed with me that it is good to promote early childhood

bilingualism and that it is very unreasonable to call it "child abuse" as

the judge in the custody hearing did. Unfortunately, I didn't get to hear

the subsequent discussion between the host and the callers, but my guess is

that it was largely pro-bilingualism. Why? Because the LDS (Latter Day

Saints/Mormon) Church promotes second language learning and seems to be

(recently??) also promoting language maintenance. I am fairly sure that

this is connected to the missionary functions of the LDS Church. But maybe

someone out there can say more about this. In spite of the supposed

positive regard for bilingualism, I still get more xenophobic responses to

my name here than I remember getting in Texas and it would also be no

surprise to hear that Dennis' Ann Arbor incident actually happened in Salt

Lake City. And like Dennis, I may be more sensitive to the contradictory

attitudes towards bilingualism because I am an early childhood bilingual.



Anyway, I think that it's important to keep in mind that Amarillo is

probably one of the least bilingual of the Texas cities of its size because

of its social history. I think that it would have been very unlikely for a

judge south of the "language line" in Texas to decide that the mother's use

of Spanish was abusive.







Marianna Di Paolo

m.dipaolo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]m.cc.utah.edu

Linguistics Program

2300 LNCO

University of Utah

Salt Lake City, UT  84112



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Sep 1995 13:09:21 -0400

From:  Jerry Miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pot-house politicians (fwd)



I don't actually know the answer, but my instincts tell me a "pot-house" was

exactly what it implies -- an outhouse. I'll now see if I can find something

that confirms or invalidates that common-sense response, okay?



Jerry Miller



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Sep 1995 13:13:09 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: My Final Post on uuencoding



I wrote our univ. helpdesk this query:



> I keep being sent uuencoded files that look like garbage. If I am

> working on a Macintosh and I want to figure out what one of those files says,

 > what do I do? Someone suggested that I find a program called UULite on my

> "university file server," down load it --but then did not tell me what

> to do next? What do I turn to for help?



The helpdesk responded:



I looked all through our mac server called Promethius. I could not find

a uudecoder. You may want to check with some of your friends that have

macs. You may be able to access a bulletin board and down load a file

that will do it.

If you have other questions you can call us here. Have a good weekend.



I think I can live without uuencoding for now. That's all, follks.



Enjoyed the thread, irrelevant as it was.

Bethany Dumas

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Sep 1995 14:13:33 +0000

From:  "E. W. Gilman" <egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>

Subject: pothouse



Pothouse is entered in W3 with the meaning "alehouse, tavern". The

similar-sounding word for an outhouse is "boghouse".



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Sep 1995 13:37:09 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: NOT: ADS-ANS deadline September 1



> It's really too bad this comedy act posing as a thread was under such a

> misleading title. I almost dumped them before reading!



INDEED! I dumped nearly all of mine before I discovered what I had

done. Am I going to have to open every file on every topic now?





Tom Uharriet

Springville, Utah

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admin.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Sep 1995 20:24:47 -0400

From:  "Aaron E. Drews" <DREWSA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU>

Subject: Re: pothouse



> Pothouse is entered in W3 with the meaning "alehouse, tavern". The

> similar-sounding word for an outhouse is "boghouse".

    In Scotland, I heard referred to just as "bog".... kind of a

nice place to be after visiting the pothouses (according to W3's

definition) too much.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Sep 1995 21:15:37 -0400

From:  Douglas Mazanec <MAZMAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DELPHI.COM>

Subject: Re: Fwd: knee-high



In Cleveland, it's been (and still is) knee-high to a grasshopper.



Douglas Mazanec (Mazman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]delphi.com)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 1 Sep 1995 23:53:25 EDT

From:  Terry Lynn Irons <t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: secret codes



If we don't understand uuencoding and the other things that new technologies

allow us to do, do we really have any right to say that the NEH should

give us money?



Increasingingly I find technology being used by humans who are not in control

of it and it scares me. I don't know why, but I still think the people

using the machines should be smarter than the machines.



As objections arise, I need to point out that the <we> of my first sentence

emcompasses a wide group of people. Some of you already know, I hope, that

my comments do not apply to you.



Pardon me, while I go back to work. I accidentally whipped out my

config.sys and autoexec.bat files when I meant to delete files on my

a: drive. It was at first a frustration, but now I see it as an

opportunity to rethink what I do. Now if I can only configure the

programs I have been loading. Something to do with mapping.

Bye the bye, thanks, Don and Virginia.



PS: Natalie, I need to ask you to force remove a group of people from

ADS-L. Our domain name here has been changed to direct mail to more than

1 machine via a nameserver, and so people can't unsub because of the

reply-to header in the messages. (And they don't know how to

customize headers or use EMACS--the god command application of all

applications in UNIX). Last year I asked students in a class to

sub to ADS-L as a class requirement and either post or reply to a

query. At semester's end many did not unsub and they donh't

read their mail and our usemail dir is filling up with stuff.

BE WARNED: I am using the same assignment this fall with a new

group of students. BUt I need to clean things up both here and

there first. Reply to let me know what info you need to do the

purging.



Terry

--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 31 Aug 1995 to 1 Sep 1995

***********************************************





There is one message totalling 23 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. uuencoded files, etc.



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 2 Sep 1995 14:16:32 -0400

From:  ALICE FABER <faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: uuencoded files, etc.



With regard to the whole uuencoding fiasco, a few comments. My problem with

the message was not its being uuencoded (if someone sends me something in a

format I can't read, I won't read it; if they want me to read it, they'll send

it in a format I *can* read, like good old text!), but its length. I get ADS-L

in digest form, to keep my mailbox from being cluttered up with 20-30 messages

a day. When the second message in the digest is 20-30 screens long and

gibberish, there is a very strong likelihood that I'm not going to hit return

that many times but instead will trash the whole digest. If I'd done that this

time, I would have missed a lot of interesting stuff. For this reason, I very

much appreciate Allan Metcalf's offer to created a mailing list for the NEH

messages; they're important, but I often don't have time to deal with them,

and they decrease the likelihood that I'll see the rest of what's in the ADS-L

digest for that day.



Alice Faber

faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haskins.yale.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Sep 1995 to 2 Sep 1995

**********************************************





There is one message totalling 48 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. ADS-L Digest - 1 Sep 1995 to 2 Sep 1995



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 3 Sep 1995 09:13:29 -0500

From:  wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 1 Sep 1995 to 2 Sep 1995



I second as strongly as I can the following message, for I also am a

digester.



Bob Wachal



On Sun, 3 Sep 1995, Automatic digest processor wrote:



> There is one message totalling 23 lines in this issue.

>

> Topics of the day:

>

>  1. uuencoded files, etc.

>

> ----------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> Date:  Sat, 2 Sep 1995 14:16:32 -0400

> From:  ALICE FABER <faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU>

> Subject: uuencoded files, etc.

>

> With regard to the whole uuencoding fiasco, a few comments. My problem with

> the message was not its being uuencoded (if someone sends me something in a

> format I can't read, I won't read it; if they want me to read it, they'll send

> it in a format I *can* read, like good old text!), but its length. I get ADS-L

> in digest form, to keep my mailbox from being cluttered up with 20-30 messages

> a day. When the second message in the digest is 20-30 screens long and

> gibberish, there is a very strong likelihood that I'm not going to hit return

> that many times but instead will trash the whole digest. If I'd done that this

> time, I would have missed a lot of interesting stuff. For this reason, I very

> much appreciate Allan Metcalf's offer to created a mailing list for the NEH

> messages; they're important, but I often don't have time to deal with them,

> and they decrease the likelihood that I'll see the rest of what's in the ADS-L

> digest for that day.

>

> Alice Faber

> faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haskins.yale.edu

>

> ------------------------------

>

> End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Sep 1995 to 2 Sep 1995

> **********************************************

>



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Sep 1995 to 3 Sep 1995

**********************************************





There are 13 messages totalling 301 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Fwd: knee-high (fwd)

 2. English-only (5)

 3. secret codes

 4. ADS-ANS deadline September 1 -Reply (2)

 5. pothouse

 6. English-only (fwd)

 7. hung dogs

 8. Pan-Scandinavian dialects



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Sep 1995 06:35:34 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen <jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Fwd: knee-high (fwd)



It's subject to a very wide variation. For one tribe in Panama, it is

"knee-high as a blade of grass".



JEFF



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Thu, 31 Aug 1995 16:25:26 GMT

From: Barnhart <Lexik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]highlands.com>

To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Fwd: knee-high



I have been doing some looking about at Americanism lately. One I found

listed with several variants was _knee-high to a toad_ and _knee-high to a

mosquito_ and _knee-high to a frog_ and _knee-high to a duck_ and even

_knee-high to nothing_. I was born in the Chicaog area and spent most of my

childhood in the New York City area. The expression for me was always

_knee-high to a grasshopper_.



My query to anyone interested is: Is this regional or just subject to wild

variation?



David K. Barnhart

Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Sep 1995 07:02:00 CDT

From:  Tom Murray <TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.KSU.EDU>

Subject: English-only



According to a New Hampshire newspaper, that state became the 22nd to pass Engl

ish-only legislation (making English the "official" language of those states).

 Now, does anyone happen to know what the other 21 states are? Thanks.



         --Tom Murray <TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.KSU.EDU>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Sep 1995 08:32:05 -0400

From:  David Muschell <dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: secret codes



Terry Lynn Irons recently wrote:

>If we don't understand uuencoding and the other things that new technologies

>allow us to do, do we really have any right to say that the NEH should

>give us money?

>

>Increasingingly I find technology being used by humans who are not in control

>of it and it scares me. I don't know why, but I still think the people

>using the machines should be smarter than the machines.



That's quite a leap in logic. Since when is computer programming part of

the humanities? Must we pass a computer skills test as part of the grant

application process now? My instincts tell me that technology has always

been used by humans who are not in control of it: from the bow and arrow

to the musket to the "smart bomb." I have some idea how the air

conditioner cooling my office works, but I couldn't take it apart and fix

it if it broke. It has only been a few years since I was dragged into

using the device that is sending this mail, and I resist getting too deeply

caught in its web (world-wide or otherwise). I don't necessarily believe I

have to be "machine smart" to be an effective teacher or to make fair use

of a computer. I'm certainly no language chauvinist when it comes to a

computer code being sent to me as a message, but I do believe in an

audience-centered communication process and that one missed the mark for

me.



David



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Sep 1995 07:20:18 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-only



Since I make sure MY students know that spoken English and written

English are two different languages, I'm curious what the good voters of

22 states thought they were voting for -- written English only, spoken

English only, or "it don't matter!"? Can anyone in one of those 22 states

tell us if it was aimed at written only in their state?



On Tue, 5 Sep 1995, Tom Murray wrote:



> According to a New Hampshire newspaper, that state became the 22nd to pass Engl

> ish-only legislation (making English the "official" language of those states).

> Now, does anyone happen to know what the other 21 states are? Thanks.

>

>          --Tom Murray <TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.KSU.EDU>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Sep 1995 10:13:19 -0600

From:  Bruce Gelder <bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM>

Subject: Re: English-only



I happened to see a headline in this morning's USA today saying that Bob

Dole is sponsoring yet another piece of legislation attempting to make

English the national language.



Does anyone happen to have a copy of the bill or know anything more about

it than what it said in USA Today?



Thanks,

Bruce Gelder

bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]es.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Sep 1995 12:11:49 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: English-only



Yes, it was in his speech to the American Legion convention yesterday in

Indianapolis. He came out for ELA and against bilingual ed. There are wire

service reports on clari.news. and in today's NY Times, p. A8. --"Dole

Attacks Liberals"



The race is on . . .





Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Sep 1995 12:57:52 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: ADS-ANS deadline September 1 -Reply



Good letter in today's NYT: "Bilingual Americans Are Role Models"



beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Sep 1995 15:31:32 EDT

From:  Shani Walker <s.walker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: pothouse



>

> > Pothouse is entered in W3 with the meaning "alehouse, tavern". The

> > similar-sounding word for an outhouse is "boghouse".

>     In Scotland, I heard referred to just as "bog".... kind of a

> nice place to be after visiting the pothouses (according to W3's

> definition) too much.

>





I think the defintion depands upon the person perceiving the phrase

"pot-house". For instance, if you are form a small town or community, you

may take the defintion given to you by Webster. However, if you are from

a big city, then you may see the phrase "pot-house" under negative

connotations, such as a place where persons who engage in illegal smoking

activity go, and hang-out. It all depends upon the perceiver.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Sep 1995 14:54:58 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen <jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-only (fwd)



Dole was on the News last night where he addressed the issue. His point

was about English being the means of economic potential for children in

school who would later need jobs. I was shocked to see him slamming

language programs. Another ethnocentric American. Guess that means that

if he becomes president he won't be speaking with diplomatic leaders of

other countries in their languages.



JEFF



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 10:13:19 -0600

From: Bruce Gelder <bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM>

To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-only



I happened to see a headline in this morning's USA today saying that Bob

Dole is sponsoring yet another piece of legislation attempting to make

English the national language.



Does anyone happen to have a copy of the bill or know anything more about

it than what it said in USA Today?



Thanks,

Bruce Gelder

bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]es.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Sep 1995 15:30:28 CDT

From:  Barbara Need <barbara[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAPIR.UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-only



I was at a joint meeting of the LSA and MLA in San Francisco some years

back when California was considering such a law. Supporters of English

Only were there as part of a panel. I asked, pointing out that, as a

composition instructor I had become aware of the differences between

my English and that of my students, [sorry, a comma is missing above]

which English would be official. The answer: " Well, English English",

of course! was the subtext. Meaing, I suppose, well English--there is

only ONE English and it is the right one and it is mine (that is the

speaker's).



> Since I make sure MY students know that spoken English and written

> English are two different languages, I'm curious what the good voters of

> 22 states thought they were voting for -- written English only, spoken

> English only, or "it don't matter!"? Can anyone in one of those 22 states



> tell us if it was aimed at written only in their state?



[above from Dan Alford]



Barbara Need

University of Chicago--Linguistics



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Sep 1995 16:16:45 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: ADS-ANS deadline September 1 -Reply



What I particularly loved about that bilingualism story was that

the judge's avowed reason why the mother should speak only English

to her child was so that the child would "Do good in school" [sic].

I love the English language, but I don't think it guarantees virtue,

as he implies.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 5 Sep 1995 17:07:25 EDT

From:  Arnold Zwicky <zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.OHIO-STATE.EDU>

Subject: hung dogs



a shape-note singer in minneapolis (sooner or later all the

disparate threads of my life seem to come together) writes

to ask about the origins of "when all the dogs are hung"

meaning 'when things are over'. lighter under DOG gives

citations from 1867 on for "till/until all the dogs were

hung" meaning 'until the end or resolution', which i'll

take to be close enough to the original queried phrase

not to matter.



joan, i didn't find anything in DARE under DOG, but then

i did a very quick search and might have missed it. is there

anything in your files, maybe under TILL or UNTIL, or

possibly HUNG?



i would guess that the dogs in question are not our

canine friends but one of the many inanimate sorts of

dogs, capable of being hung (up). but which one, and

how did hanging them (up) come to signify the end of some

event?



arnold (zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ohio-state.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 09:42:54 +1000

From:  Baden Hughes <h9405049[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STUDENT.ANU.EDU.AU>

Subject: Pan-Scandinavian dialects



I'm currently doing some research on Pan-Scandinavian (hereafter P-Sc)

languages, and their historical development since Ivar Aasen started

standardising Norwegian in the mid 19th century. I would be interested to

hear from anyone who has expertise in this area.



My main questions are :

1. How have individual dialects contributed to the now standardised

languages of Scandinavia ?

2. Can the current P-Sc languages be considered *dialects* of a wider P-Sc

grouping ?

3. If the answer to 2 is affirmative, then can one be justified in

conducting a dialect-oriented comparative survey of the P-Sc languages ?

Any ideas on methodology ?



I'd be very grateful of anyone's thoughts on these questions. Any replies

please direct to me personally :



Baden Hughes (B.Hughes[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]student.anu.edu.au)



Thanks



Baden



B.HUGHES[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]student.anu.edu.au



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Sep 1995 to 5 Sep 1995

**********************************************





There are 22 messages totalling 520 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Bounced Mail

 2. hung dogs -Reply

 3. Pronounciation of Oxymoron (4)

 4. English-only (10)

 5. English-only (fwd)

 6. hung dogs

 7. English-only legislation (again) (2)

 8. courses on language and gender or language and power

 9. add to courses on language and gender



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 05:32:01 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Bounced Mail



****************************************************************

 REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING

 YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES

 TO ADS-L IN THE HEADERS.

****************************************************************

> Date:     Tue, 5 Sep 1995 22:09:43 -0400

> From: "L-Soft list server at UGA (1.8b)" <LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

> Subject:   ADS-L: error report from BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU

>

>The enclosed message, found in the ADS-L mailbox and shown under the spool ID

>2199 in the system log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice

>for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to

>the list has been found in mail body.

>

> -------------- Message in error (60 lines) --------------------------

> From: "H. Stephen STRAIGHT (Binghamton University/SUNY)" <sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bingsuns.cc.binghamton.edu>

> Subject: Re: English-only (fwd)

>

> Thank you, jeffrey howard allen, for sharing these latest Dole-ful

> tidings.

>

> It's a mark of the ethno-/linguo-/racio-centric tendencies of the world

> today that the primary candidate of the primary party of the primary

> nation can out of one side of his mouth condemn efforts to help people who

> _already know_ a language other than English (LOTE) while out of the other

> side of his mouth encouraging efforts to make that same nation more

> effective in the world economy/culture/polity, which would at a minimum

> require that we increase our proficiency in LOTEs (presumably through

> schooling, though he doesn't offer funding for it).

>

> Haven't we wasted enough generations of multilingual immigrants to realize

> that they and their children may hold the key to a new international

> comity? I look forward to the day when the president of the U.S. speaks

> to a world leader in a LOTE that is the first language of _both_ of

> them. (Sort of like the day the current pope first spoke to the

> president of Poland!)

>

> So many languages, so few linguists, so little time! Languaculture rules!

>

> On Tue, 5 Sep 1995, jeffrey howard allen wrote:

> > Date: Tue, 5 Sep 1995 14:54:58 -0500

> > From: jeffrey howard allen <jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INDIANA.EDU>

> > Subject: Re: English-only (fwd)

> >

> > Dole was on the News last night where he addressed the issue. His point

> > was about English being the means of economic potential for children in

> > school who would later need jobs. I was shocked to see him slamming

> > language programs. Another ethnocentric American. Guess that means that

> > if he becomes president he won't be speaking with diplomatic leaders of

> > other countries in their languages.

> >

> > JEFF

>

>    Best.          Bye.          Steve

> signature =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> H Stephen STRAIGHT        LxC      Binghamton University (SUNY)

> Assoc Prof, Anthro and Ling        Box 6000, Binghamton NY 13902-6000

> Dir, Langs Across the Curriculum    Tel: 607-777-2824  Fax: 607-777-2889

> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 09:39:39 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer <dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM>

Subject: hung dogs -Reply



Just a guess, but I know that the iron latches that hold back

shutters and are sometimes quite decorative are known as dogs. Could

these be the dogs in question?

Molly Dickmeyer

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 06:54:24 PDT

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Pronounciation of Oxymoron



I heard a newsclip on the radio of Marcia Clark (OJ trial) pronouncing Oxymoron

as AWK-sim-ar-ron. Until then I've always heard and used OX-ee-mor-on (kind of

like the first half of Oxygen followed by moron.).



Since my paperback Webster New World doesn't have it, can anyone tell me which

is the preferred?



Thanks,

-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 11:10:54 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Oxymoron



I would say OX-ee-MOR-on, and that's the only way I've ever heard it.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 12:37:04 -0400

From:  MICHAEL M FARRELL <mmfarr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-only



English should never become a second language in America. If it were not

so, the founding fathers would have written the constitution in several

other languages. I feel it is a disgrace when considerations to alter

American society for the betterment of the less fortunant is ridiculous.

My grandparents came from Italy, and had to learn English if they wanted

to succeed in life. Thus, I feel if someone does not know or want to

learn English...TOUGH! Furthermore, it is disgusting to go down towards

Miami or Southern California and seeing all those Spanish signs. It

almost makes me feel as if I were in mexico (yes thats a small 'm').

Also, it is a waste of my tax dollars on teaching young immigrants their

native languages rather than the English language. The breakdown of one

source of communication is another aspect of how this country is falling

apart.



To continue, conservatives attacking the liberals......poor baby! Hello,

wake-up call! The liberals have attacked the conservative viewpoints for

over 30 years, right? And, they have had this country in their control

for that longer, or longer, right? And, finally they have been forcing

their liberal views on this society long enough. It is way past due for

America to stand up again and realize what this countrys core values are.

I am not against homosexuals, women who feel they need abortions, or

against any viewpoint the liberals might have. I just feel we need to

re-evaluate how we deal with teen-age sex, drugs, crime, and racism. I

am so tired of everybody crying foul, and saying this group offended this

group. Come on WAKE-UP AMERICA......pitts off!





Still a Patriot!

Mikey



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 12:46:41 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-only



"the betterment of the less fortunant is ridiculous"



evidence of nasalization of unstressed vowel following a nasal consonant















Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 12:47:51 -0400

From:  MICHAEL M FARRELL <mmfarr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-only (fwd)



Why would he communicate in a foreign language our foreign policy? Come on

don't you think English should be the primary language in America? If

not, which do you prefer....how about Russian or Chinesse? I heard those

are good foreign languages to know. We should make all our road signs in

those languages side by side, so we don't offend that one person who

doesn't know Russian or vice versa. Also, lets go ahead and switch our

currency over to the.....lets see.....the peso! I bet our Economy would

do wonders with that. Furthermore lets change our cultural history and

habits to make those who are not from America feel right at home.

Lastly, lets just rename America to The United Spanish, Russian,

Japanese, Chinese, African, Tibetan, Indian, etc. States of the World.



The only good thing about all this would be maybe we wouldn't have to

vote for Bill or Bob and just ask some other leader from another nation

to sit in the White House. Why not, huh?



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 11:15:58 CST

From:  Joan Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>

Subject: Re: hung dogs



DARE will enter this under "last dog is hung, until the". I'll send you a

copy of the entry, Arnold.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 13:43:03 -0400

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr." <billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Oxymoron



OK- and AWK- first syllables are possible for speakers who neutralize the

distinction between *cot* and *caught*, as common in the West. Strong

initial stress with no primary or secondary stress on the -mor- syllable

is possible with American speakers as an alternate pronunciation in

polysyllabic Latinate words; it is the rule for British speakers in

words like laboratory and secretary, with syncopation of the penultimate

syllable on which Americans would put secondary stress: Br SE-kre-try

vs. Am SE-kre-TAR-y. I suppose somebody might even stress the the second

syllable, ok-SIM-a-run, by analogy with such similarly unfamiliar words

as pen-TAM-e-ter or de-KAM-er-on. I would judge the most frequent AM

pronunciation to be OK(or AWK)-se-MOR-on, and will so report it for Oxford.



Regards, Bill

******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English (Park 317)   FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Atlas Web Page: http://hyde.park.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 12:59:00 CDT

From:  Tom Murray <TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.KSU.EDU>

Subject: English-only legislation (again)



>From several folks who responded to my earlier query regarding the 22 states th

at have passed English-only legislation, I've been able to piece together that

the following 21 states have such legislation in place: Alabama, Arizona, Arka

nsas, California, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Illinois, Indiana, Kentuc

ky, Michigan, Mississippi, Nebraska, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakot

a, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, and Virginia. (Actually, Hawaii re

cognizes both Hawaiian and English as "official" languages, though the recognit

ion of Hawaiian, I think, is more honorary than anything.) Now, can someone PL

EASE tell me the 22nd state?



Many thanks.



               --Tom Murray <TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.KSU.EDU>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 15:20:55 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-only



In response to Michael Farrell (mmfarr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu), I could

equally well ask why the leader of Russia, or France, or Japan should

have to communicate her foreign policy in English. If the leader of

the US is speaking to the leader of a non-English-speaking country,

either one of them will have to use a language other than that of his

or her country, or they'll have to use translators. Why shouldn't the

United States elect a few multi-lingual leaders.



And yes, I think English is a fine _primary_ language for the United

States. But that doesn't mean it should be the only language we use:

Spanish, Navaho, Cherokee, French (to pick a few examples from among

our great wealth) are also good languages.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 12:57:19 PDT

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: English-only legislation (again)



... (Actually, Hawaii recognizes both Hawaiian and English as "official"

languages, though the recognition of Hawaiian, I think, is more honorary than

anything.) ...



Don't bet the ranch on it!!! A significant group in Hawaii has some serious

intentions on seceding from the USofA and taking their state with them. For

more information use your WEB browser to check out the URL

http://hawaii-nation.org/nation/



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 16:35:43 -0400

From:  Michael Elkins <MELKINS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADVOCATE.COM>

Subject: English-only



Perhaps English isn't being taught in our schools after all. Otherwise,

we wouldn't have people confusing patriotism with what sounds more like

bigotry. What an "unfortunant" state of affairs.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 16:58:06 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Oxymoron



And just this afternoon on our local Public Radio station, I heard

the pronunciation 'num ri cal for what I call nu 'me ri kl



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 17:01:24 -0400

From:  "Christopher R. Coolidge" <ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-only



 To all you alarmists out there, declaring one obviously predominantly spo-

ken language the "official" language of a country does not mean the kiss of

death for other languages spoken in that country. It merely officially states

what's self-evident. On the other hand, I am strongly against language ever

becoming a legal question; you only have to look at Quebec, where you prac-

tically need a law degree specialising in language law to understand the le-

gal ramifications of displaying a public sign in English in Quebec. In a nut-

shell, an English sign can be posted indoors(in a store, for example)if ac-

companied by a French translation where the letters are at least twice as big

as those in the English print; outdoors, a sign may be displayed in French

along with any other, but only one other language. This could be Chinese,

English, Italian, Cree, Inuit...There are many exceptions depending on the

size of the store or establishment. The only place where English and French

get equal treatment is in federal government buildings; in provincial go-

vernment buildings, everything's in French, with English translations

available on request.

 Gee, don't we have it good down here? So what if we have an official lan-

guage. The official language of Holland is Dutch, in Norway it's Norwegian,

and so on. There are other languages spoken besides the predominant langu-

age in any country. Try granting official status to the several thousand

different dialects and languages in India, ALL of them, and see what hap-

pens. Chaos. Those who want to keep a language alive will never let it die.

We don't need governments legislating language.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 16:11:23 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-only



Does anyone know about this:



A student said that "recently" there had been a move to make part of

Florida officially "SPanish only". I didn't know anything of such

a proposition.

Does anyone know about a "Spanish" language proposition in Florida?



Thanks,



Beth

Beth Simon

Dept. of English and Linguistics

IPFW



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 21:05:59 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-only



 It is interesting to note how a political issue brings out an extreme

overload of misinformation. (I thought we made enough mistakes when we were

just talking about distributions, etymologies, etc....)



I am really very interested in hearing opinions about the offical language

question, but I am really not interested in the slightest in hearing people

justify whatever their position might be with glaring inaccuracies of fact.

Those who write the list should have some sense that most of us are

professional linguists, and we will be little impressed by arguments which

include such glaring inaccuracies as, for example, the claim that Norwegian

is the official language of Norway. Let us at least fulminate with facts or

join political discussion list where there is apparently less regard for

accuracy.



Dennis Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 21:34:08 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-only



"Mikey," calling himself "Still a Patriot," wrote some fascinating

sentences, to wit:



1. If it were not

so, the founding fathers would have written the constitution in several

other languages.



I do admire those who can read the minds of individuals who have been dead

many decades!



2. I feel it is a disgrace when considerations to alter

American society for the betterment of the less fortunant is ridiculous.



I also feel that it is a disgrace when "considerations ... is ridiculous."

(But I don't usually say so in public!)



3. Furthermore, it is disgusting to go down towards

Miami or Southern California and seeing all those Spanish signs.



Ah, yes -- one might even think that some Americans are actually smart

enough to learn more than one language! And we all now that that ain't true!



Etc. etc. etc. Thank you, Mikey, for your highly revealing post!



(But just which language were you writing in? I couldn't tell.)



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 20:57:39 -0400

From:  "Aaron E. Drews" <DREWSA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-only



    I guess it's time for my two-bits worth. My brother and I hav

have often discussed this issue.

    First of all, language, as of yet, is a State's right, (not to

be confused with States' rights). Let the other 27-odd odd states decide

for themselves. Kentucky, for example, doesn't have a lot of Chinese

immigrants, whereas California does. A national law as such wouldn't

encompass different States' needs. I apologise for this part.... I've

been reading a novel on the Civil War.

    Now, the largest argument I have heard is "my grandparents had

to learn English when coming here" etc. I fell safe in assuming that

all of us on this list had ancestors that *had* to learn English or they

would have had some serious troubles. Yet, several communities were

able, and still are able, to maintain a non-English environment. They

have managed to do with *without* English-only legislation. My great-

grandparents learned English (as far as I know without an "accent" of

the old country) because they would have been ridiculed back to the

old country if they hadn't. THose were social rules. I admit

today's climate is sensitive to everyone's needs, but by printing

official documents, road signs, menus, shoelace instructions, ad

naseum only in English, one maintains English-only without need for

new laws (which is the last thing this country needs. Sorry, I'm

confusing that with lawyers).

    From my understanding of Dole's comments, bilingual education

would find no government funding (not that it doesn't already) and

other such programmes would be hurt as well. Well, we pride ourselves

on capitalism, we could promote private schools of culture and language.

I don't know how many times I was disappointed as a kid because most

of my Asian friends had to go to Japanese school or Chinese school after

regular school and on the weekends. I have a distinct feeling, call

it fear, that, were an English-only legislation to pass, a xenophobic

sentiment would be aimed at the private schools along the lines of

"damned foreigners don't have no respect for our school...." even

though English speaking private schools are just fine and dandy.

    I don't think language should have anything to do with

politics.... except for new laws being understandable by the

common citizen.

    That was more than I intended to say.....

Aaron Drews







P.S. I'm just happy Ben Franklin's fettish for Latin didn't become

a national language.

Gen 11:9 "...From Babel the Lord scatter them over the face of

the whole eart and sent those that spoke Babel to Washington"

(Reduced Shakespear Company).



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 19:40:04 -0700

From:  Milton Azevedo <ctlntt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-only



Mikey wrote a message which not everyone on this list

agrees with, and it is perfectly appropriate to take

exception with his ideas. Criticism, however, seems

to degenerate into a kind of commentary (such as

"just which language were you writing in? I couldn't tell")

that is not only inappropriate, but also entirely out of

keeping with what should be the professional tenor of

a list like this one. If we are here to discuss ideas,

decorum is essential --and not just a minimum of it. If

some participants choose to ignore this norm, the best

thing others can do is to ignore them altogether

instead of taking pot-shot at them in a manner that

does not contribute to clarify the issues at hand.



Milton Azevedo

---------------------------------------------------------------

Prof. Milton Azevedo       Dept of Spanish & Portuguese

Univ of California, Berkeley   Berkeley CA 94720 - USA

E-MAIL: ctlntt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu Tel. (510) 642-0471 or -2116

---------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 21:56:39 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: courses on language and gender or language and power



I'd like to hear from anyone who has taught a course on language and

gender, or on language and power. Thanks,



beth

Beth Simon

Dept of English and Linguistics

IPFW



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 21:57:40 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: add to courses on language and gender



Sorry, forgot to say,



please respond to

simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu



thanks again

beth



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Sep 1995 to 6 Sep 1995

**********************************************





There are 23 messages totalling 625 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. English-only (4)

 2. Bounced Mail

 3. Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply (2)

 4. language legislation conference

 5. nuclear

 6. Pronounciation of Oxymoron

 7. patriots, etc. (2)

 8. /a:I/ vs. /[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]I/ (2)

 9. English-Only States (2)

 10. Correction:Bigots, not Conservatives (2)

 11. Attacks on reasonable people (2)

 12. Anachronistic usage? (2)

 13. Lolita



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 6 Sep 1995 22:00:49 -0700

From:  Gail Stygall <stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-only



Then you are perhaps unaware of the deluge of litigation on just such

matters after California passed its ELA in 1986, cases such as Asian

Business Owners Assn. vs. City of Pomono? That case (and there were

plenty of similar cases) contested the city requirement that owners of

various businesses, specifically those having bilingual customers, make

sure that the English on their signs was bigger than the Chinese or

Vietnamese. These were, needless to say, successful businesses. The

business owners won on First Amendment grounds if I remember correctly.

So perhaps we could say that Californians making signs must have higher

degrees in the arcana of language law?



Having vacationed in Vancouver this summer, I found the English-French

combination a welcome recognition of historical and contemporary

diversity.

Cheers,

Gail



______________________________________________________________________________

Gail Stygall <stygall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu>       (206) 685-2384

English, Box 354330, University of Washington, Seattle WA 98195-4330

______________________________________________________________________________



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 08:06:58 -0400

From:  Heilan Yvette Grimes <HEP2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: English-only



>Mikey wrote a message which not everyone on this list

>agrees with, and it is perfectly appropriate to take

>exception with his ideas. Criticism, however, seems

>to degenerate into a kind of commentary (such as

>"just which language were you writing in? I couldn't tell")

>that is not only inappropriate, but also entirely out of

>keeping with what should be the professional tenor of

>a list like this one. If we are here to discuss ideas,

>decorum is essential --and not just a minimum of it. If

>some participants choose to ignore this norm, the best

>thing others can do is to ignore them altogether

>instead of taking pot-shot at them in a manner that

>does not contribute to clarify the issues at hand.

>

>Milton Azevedo



I believe the person commenting on Mikey's English usage was pointing out the

ridiculousness of someone being so adamantly opposed to second languages

while being so grammatically incorrect in his own language. It is obvious

Mikey doesn't speak a second language, and obvious he barely speaks a first.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 08:29:43 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Bounced Mail



****************************************************************

 REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING

 YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES

 TO ADS-L IN THE HEADERS.

****************************************************************

> Date:     Thu, 7 Sep 1995 09:11:31 -0400

> From: "L-Soft list server at UGA (1.8b)" <LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

> Subject:   ADS-L: error report from VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU

>

>The enclosed message, found in the ADS-L mailbox and shown under the spool ID

>7952 in the system log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice

>for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to

>the list has been found in mail body.

>

>------------------ Message in error (51 lines) --------------------------

> Date: Thu, 7 Sep 1995 06:11:31 -0700

> From: ctlntt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu

> Subject: Re: English-only

>

>    Date:     Thu, 7 Sep 1995 08:06:58 -0400

>    From: Heilan Yvette Grimes <HEP2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

>    Subject:   Re: English-only

>

>>Mikey wrote a message which not everyone on this list

>>agrees with, and it is perfectly appropriate to take

>>exception with his ideas. Criticism, however, seems

>>to degenerate into a kind of commentary (such as

>>"just which language were you writing in? I couldn't tell")

>>that is not only inappropriate, but also entirely out of

>>keeping with what should be the professional tenor of

>>a list like this one. If we are here to discuss ideas,

>>decorum is essential --and not just a minimum of it. If

>>some participants choose to ignore this norm, the best

>>thing others can do is to ignore them altogether

>>instead of taking pot-shot at them in a manner that

>>does not contribute to clarify the issues at hand.

>>

>>Milton Azevedo

>

>I believe the person commenting on Mikey's English usage was pointing out the

>ridiculousness of someone being so adamantly opposed to second languages

>while being so grammatically incorrect in his own language. It is obvious

>Mikey doesn't speak a second language, and obvious he barely speaks a first.

>

>

> Yes siree, maybe "obvious he barely speaks a first" but he shore ain't alone.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 10:29:15 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer <dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply



Bethany:

At about the same time on my version of NPR, I heard my personal

favorite (mis)pronunciation--nuke-u-lar. Who snuck that second "u" in

there?

Molly



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 09:44:01 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply



On Thu, 7 Sep 1995, Molly Dickmeyer wrote:



> Bethany:

> At about the same time on my version of NPR, I heard my personal

> favorite (mis)pronunciation--nuke-u-lar. Who snuck that second "u" in

> there?

> Molly



Jimmy Carter.



Actually, that's probably not fair to say. People were saying nuke-u-lar

before Carter landed in the White House, but that's one thing that many

people remember about him.





>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 10:16:01 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: language legislation conference



NOTE REVISED DATES   NOTE REVISED DATES  NOTE REVISED DATES



CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT/CALL FOR PAPERS



"Language Legislation and Linguistic Rights": An International Conference



Organizers:



Dennis E. Baron, English

Eyamba Bokamba, Division of English as an International Language

C. C. Cheng, Language Learning Laboratory

Braj B. Kachru, Linguistics

Douglas A. Kibbee, French



Dates:



March 21-23, 1996.  (Revised from earlier post!)





The University of Illinois will host a colloquium on Language Legislation

and Linguistic Rights on March 21-23, 1996. A select group of speakers from

around the world will address linguistic issues such as language and

culture, language and power, bilingualism; and the linguistic aspects of

social issues such as community vs. individual rights, cultural survival,

and free trade. It is expected that the conference proceedings will be

published.

    Language legislation and the concept of linguistic human rights have

moved to the forefront of national and international news. In the United

States, language legislation has taken the form of the national English

Language Amendment, and a variety of state and local ordinances. In the US,

legal solutions to perceived threats have quickly found their way to the

courts, with appeals leading all the way to the United States Supreme

Court.  Many other countries around the globe have erected legal barriers

against the penetration of English or other languages perceived as threats.

These laws often conflict with guarantees of individual human rights,

such as the UN Charter or the D=E9claration des Droits de l'Homme. In the

realm of international law, language protection has colored debate on such

issues as the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) and has

influenced the structure of international institutions like the European

Community and the United Nations.



=46or further information, contact:



            Douglas A. Kibbee

            Language Legislation Conference

            Department of French

            University of Illinois

            2090 Foreign Languages Building/ MC-158

            707 South Mathews Avenue

            Urbana IL 61801

            USA



=46AX: (1) (217) 244-2223

email: dkibbee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ux1.cso.uiuc.edu



Those wishing to participate should send a 1-2 page proposal to the

organizers at the address listed above.



DEADLINE FOR ABSTRACTS: NOVEMBER 1, 1995



------------------------------------------------------



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 08:38:37 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-only



A penetrating critique of Farrell's position, Wayne! :-) And, much as we

hate to admit it, he's RIGHT -- as conservatives usually are

metaphorically. ;-)



On Wed, 6 Sep 1995, Wayne Glowka wrote:



> "the betterment of the less fortunant is ridiculous"

>

> evidence of nasalization of unstressed vowel following a nasal consonant

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 11:54:37 +0000

From:  "E. W. Gilman" <egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>

Subject: nuclear



For the rundown on the pronunciation of nuclear, see

Merriam-WQebster'd Dictionary of English Usage, page 673.



Gil



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 08:57:38 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Oxymoron



Speaking of which, where does Chris Darden (OJ Prosecution team) get his

pronunciation for "cumulative" as k[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] 'm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]l [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] tIv instead of 'kju mju l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] tIv?



On Wed, 6 Sep 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:



> And just this afternoon on our local Public Radio station, I heard

> the pronunciation 'num ri cal for what I call nu 'me ri kl

>

> Bethany Dumas

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 12:54:42 -0400

From:  Ellen Johnson <ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU>

Subject: patriots, etc.



First, in a nod to accuracy, I am pleased to report that Georgia's

governor, Zell Miller, vetoed the English-only legislation that passed

there this year, fortunately in time for the Olympics.



(Gee, I am getting paranoid now about going back to correct my typos,

somthing I don't always do on e-mail!)



Second, isn't it interesting how we non-prescriptivists fall back on

prescriptive grammar as a means of defense when someone less educated (at

least who writes that way) invades our domain. Still, having grown up in

the South, I learned long ago that rational arguments have no effect on

bigots, since their positions are not based on reason, but emotion,

usually fear of some sort. Sometimes I'm brave enough to state outright

that I disagree, sometimes I just ignore it; usually leaving the room

gets the point across and gets me to a place with better company.



Ellen Johnson

new address: ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 14:52:58 EDT

From:  Douglas Bayer x3701 3NW <dbayer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YUKON.HQ.ILEAF.COM>

Subject: /a:I/ vs. /[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]I/



I'd like any information about the geographical distribution

of the /[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]I/ allophone of AY, and similar centering/raising or

shortening of other vowels and diphthongs before voiceless

consonants.



Could anyone point me to papers, maybe even URLs on the 'Net?



dbayer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ileaf.com



---------- LONG --------------



I've heard that distinction in the following pairs described

as "Northern" or even "chiefly Canadian." And I haven't seen

or heard it implemented in any speech generation systems:



     /a:I/ = /[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]I/  (AAH-ey vs. UH-ey)

      eyes = ice

     rider = writer

 high/hind/hide = height

 why/wine/wide = white



Yet it's obligatory for me. Isn't it "General American"?



It's the sole distinguishing feature in the pair

rider = writer, and often even in eyes = ice

(because the voicing of the final "s" can't always be heard).



The rule seems to be long, open /a:I/ when the vowel is

followed by no consonant, a voiced consonant, or a nasal;

and short, mid /[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]I/ before a voiceless consonant.



But in the Great Lakes region, even "-ire" can go to /[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]jR/.

This seems less wide-spread. (I'm acutely aware because I

pronounce my German name /ba:jR/ but many people say /b[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]jR/)



Does similar centering/raising occur with other vowels or

diphthongs? For example, is there a region where "OH"

differentially goes to /o:w/ or /[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]w/ in the same environments?



Any pointers appreciated.

(And I'll gladly accept uuencoded or .ps.Z files by email... :)



Doug Bayer, Techdoc Toolsmith

Interleaf Inc.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 12:46:20 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: English-Only States



Although I haven't tried any kind of formal investigation, I've been

asking around informally ever since I saw Tom Murray's list of twenty-one

states with "English-only legislation in place," and I have yet to find a

single Mississippian who was aware we had such a law. At lunch today we

concluded that maybe Mississippi was on that list because such a law was

passed many, many years ago. Is that likely? What was that list of the

twenty-one states based on?

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 14:48:46 PDT

From:  tom creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>

Subject: Re: patriots, etc.



Are you quite positive, Ellen, that only conservatives have opinions based

on emotion?



Tom Creswell



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 14:59:35 PDT

From:  tom creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>

Subject: Correction:Bigots, not Conservatives



Sorry, so many of the other emails had castigated conservatives

that I had them in my mind when replying to Ellen's message. However,

now that I think it over, it seems that many of the messages casting

scorn on those who do not support legislation mandating bilingualism

or who believe that the public affairs of the United States should be

conducted in English implied that the reasons for supporting such

 positions are based in xenophobia which is, I believe, an emotion.



All supporters of bilingualism, of course, base their position on unim-

peachably solid, objective, unchallengeably _rational_ assumptions.



Tom Creswell-------------------------------------

Name: tom creswell                              Morality is simply the

E-mail: creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dodo.crown.net (tom creswell)  attitude we adopt toward

Date: 06/27/95                                    people we dislike.

Time: 12:24:20

                                                  --Oscar Wilde

This message was sent by Chameleon

-------------------------------------



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 17:53:47 -0400

From:  "Christopher R. Coolidge" <ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-only



 Point taken. It's good to know that the Quebecois don't have a monopoly

on asinine language policies. Glad to hear you enjoyed Vancouver; it's a

beautiful city. As far as their bilingual signs are concerned, they're a

great courtesy to the occasional Quebecois tourist, but they're a rather

empty tip of the hat to the status of French as Canada's other official

language. They don't reflect the reality that Vancouver has maybe slightly

more native French-speaking residents than Haida Indian residents. As far

as sheer numbers are concerned, Chinese would be more appropriate as a se-

cond language, or Japanese.

 Though I could live with an official language policy if it happens, I re-

tract yesterday's statement on the subject. I'd rather not see any legisla-

tion on language in the USA at all. It's so tempting to think that passing

a law will solve an difficult problem, but it usually doesn't; I'd tempo-

rarily forgotten that. I'm all for some sort of official confirmation of

fact that a certain predominant language is the predominant language, but

I'd stop short of signing it into law. Besides, what if the Iroquois and

Cherokee, for example, had passed such a law on our ancestors?



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 18:00:07 -0400

From:  "H. Stephen STRAIGHT (Binghamton University/SUNY)"

     <sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Attacks on reasonable people



Ooops! I must have deleted some messages without reading them. Could

someone please send me copies of the postings described in the following?

I'd like to share them with the students in my introductory linguistics

class this semester when we get to our planned discussion of the political

sociolinguistics of the U.S. English movement.

Thanks.



 On Thu, 7 Sep 1995, tom creswell wrote:

> messages casting

> scorn on those who do not support legislation mandating bilingualism

> or who believe that the public affairs of the United States should be

> conducted in English



signature =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

H Stephen STRAIGHT        LxC      Binghamton University (SUNY)

Assoc Prof, Anthro and Ling        Box 6000, Binghamton NY 13902-6000

Dir, Langs Across the Curriculum    Tel: 607-777-2824  Fax: 607-777-2889

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 17:41:33 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Attacks on reasonable people



> Ooops! I must have deleted some messages without reading them. Could

> someone please send me copies of the postings described in the following?



Logs of all ADS-L mail (except for the first year) are available via

ftp (ftp.msstate.edu/pub/archives/ADS), gopher (gopher.msstate.edu --

follow the menus), and the web (http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/ADS/).



The files are monthly logs except for the current month, which has daily

logs (always running one day behind -- e.g., the log of today's mail will

be in place early tomorrow morning).

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 17:13:46 -0400

From:  "Aaron E. Drews" <DREWSA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU>

Subject: Re: /a:I/ vs. /[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]I/



Walking down the street one day, I discovered this [ai] vs [[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]i]

phenomenon in myself. I'm from LA, and this is a feature I had

*before* being influenced by the Scots and the English of Edinburgh

Univ. It was only enhanced there, due mostly to the Scots.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 18:45:12 -0500

From:  Nancy Dray <nancy_dray[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNEWS.UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Anachronistic usage?



            Subject:                Time:4:56 PM

 OFFICE MEMO     Anachronistic usage?          Date:9/7/95

******Please note that I'm no longer on ADS-L, so EVEN IF YOU POST RESPONSES TO

THE LIST, PLEASE ALSO E-MAIL ME DIRECTLY; my address is n-dray[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu.

********



The Linguistics Department at the University of Chicago got a call yesterday

(which I fielded) from someone working on a new film version of "Lolita,"

directed by Adrian Lyne. The caller was trying to find out whether certain

words and phrases in the screenplay are plausible for speech by characters in a

film set in 1947, or if they should be changed to avoid anachronism.  The

items are as follows (I've given glosses or context when she gave it to me):



(1) zit ('pimple')

(2) cool

(3) guy

(4) the use of "major" in the phrase "that's a MAJOR option"

(5) "get fucked"  (They know that "fuck" is an old term, but they're wondering

about "get fucked," in the following odd context: two girls are talking, one

says, "see you later, alligator," the other replies "in a while, crocodile,"

and the first comes back with "get fucked, Daffy Duck" (which of course also

raises the questions of when the "see you later, alligator" exchanges were in

vogue and when Daffy Duck appeared...).



I have some quick guesses for all of these, but I haven't checked any sources

yet (no time until the weekend). I wish I had asked for more context,

especially for "cool" and "guy"; the use of "cool" she's referring to may even

be the most recently fashionable one-word clipped response, but I don't know

for sure.



One idea I mentioned to her off the top of my head was to be mindful of

intonation, too, since I've seen a lot of historical shows involving teenagers

that had comically anachronistic intonation patterns, as well as some

anachronistic usage of current catch phrases. (I must admit, though, that some

of my awareness of anachronism is based on the Hollywood world, not the real

world---i.e., language from the 1950s and '60s sounds normal in a western,

because that's the way people talk in old westerns, whether or not it's the way

they actually talked in the Old West; language from the '90s, on the other

hand, sounds really funny in westerns.) I also will suggest that she be

cautious about accepting just any early attestation as confirming that a usage

is okay for any character in the movie, since some usages may have appeared

first in a very different context (e.g., there may be some early attestations

of a phrase among jazz musicians, but that doesn't mean a young white country

girl would be saying it).



But I think it's great that she bothered to check this, and that she knew to

seek out a linguist, so I'm trying to be as much help as I can. (Perhaps this

is an area where opportunities could be created for linguistic consultants and

public awareness could be raised concerning dialects, language change, etc.?)

The caller wanted the info ASAP (of course), and I promised I'd call or fax her

by Monday, Sept. 11, with whatever I had then. I'd therefore be tremendously

grateful for any help ADS-L readers might offer, including suggested references

(preferably on-line). Of course, if anyone feels like actually tracking this

down and sending me an answer I can simply fax to her, I'd be even more

grateful!



In any case, thanks much, greetings to all, and I hope to be seeing many of you

at the winter meetings in Chicago.



  Nancy L. Dray

n-dray[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu



*****Please note that I'm no longer on ADS-L, so EVEN IF YOU POST RESPONSES TO

THE LIST, PLEASE ALSO E-MAIL ME DIRECTLY******



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 21:24:43 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Correction:Bigots, not Conservatives



I thought things were weird when I read that the official language of

Norway was Norwegian. Now I hear that people oppose legislation mandating

bilingualism. I admit that I have not read every bill offered in every

state legislature, but I would be very much surprised by one which mandated

bilingualism. (I take that to mean legislation which decrees that any or

all of the citizens of a state must be or become bilinguals.)

Please let me know if there is such a proposal. If it reaches Michigan, I

want to start cranking up my whatever-langauge-it-is before I am sent to

the language hoosegow (sp?).

Dennis Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 22:17:02 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-Only States



I have not checked on the status of the TN law recently, but I recall

that in 1985 the legislature passed an "English-only" law. One of my

law school classmates took a look at it and said that it was clearly

unconstitutional (at the state level). The reason? TN had a law that

made it illegal for a law to have a title longer than it was, and the

English-only law had such a title. Someone else did a little research

and announced that in such a case prior law obtianed and there was some

evidence that Cherokee had once been an "official" of the area occupied

by TN, so it followed that from 1985 to the present (unless the law

has changed again) the official language of TN is Cherokee.



(Yes, I'm joking, but just barely.)



Bethany Dumas

English/UTK



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 22:17:27 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Lolita



Amazing. I got the same call (or our department at Yale did and I fielded

it), and like Nancy (hi, Nancy!) I tried my best, mostly off the cuff with a

little help from some slang dictionaries I had lying around. I tried pushing

the same warnings on context as Nancy did (although I suspect not as

fluently), but I did end up suggesting that they'd be OK on 1947 uses of

'cool' and 'guy', while 'zit' was pretty unlikely. I thought 'major' in

'major option' MIGHT have been OK, unless it represents the currently

prevalent slang use, but since even if it doesn't, members of the audience

might think it did, they'd be safer to avoid it. I was also skeptical about

'get fucked', in the context

    [SOMEONE:] See you later, alligator!

    [LOLITA:]  Get fucked, Daffy Duck!

Fucked, yes. Fucked out, fucked up, yes; get fucked, probably not. Of course

I was winging it, since I probably wouldn't recall this particular item being

used in 1947 (when I was 2) even if it was around, and I couldn't find any

clear citations even afterward. (I did check with an owner of the Historical

Dictionary of American Slang later, who at least didn't DISconfirm any of my

guesses; she did note, though, that the relevant volume for 'zit' hasn't yet

appeared in print.

  I second Nancy's bravo for Hollywood in checking with us on these things,

even if our responses are not fully informed.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 7 Sep 1995 22:27:49 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Anachronistic usage?



At a minimum, I'd suggest that Lighter's entries (Vol 1 of his Random House

Dictionary of Slang) be carefully checked. He would be quite useful as a

consultant, I think.



Bethany Dumas

English/U of TN, Knoxville

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Sep 1995 to 7 Sep 1995

**********************************************





There are 23 messages totalling 537 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. English-only

 2. Lolita

 3. DEG ADJ of a N (3)

 4. English-Only States (4)

 5. Correction:Bigots, not Conservatives

 6. contempt vs. content (10)

 7. English Only

 8. "contempt" or "content"?

 9. ADS-ANS deadline September 1



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 00:02:57 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood <dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM>

Subject: English-only



> English should never become a second language in America. If it were not

> so, the founding fathers would have written the constitution in several

> other languages. [ . . . ]



Which ones? (They could not have predicted a need for Spanish or Chinese!)



> My grandparents came from Italy, and had to learn English if they wanted

> to succeed in life. Thus, I feel if someone does not know or want to

> learn English...TOUGH! Furthermore, it is disgusting to go down towards

> Miami or Southern California and seeing all those Spanish signs.



If you hate to be reminded that there are other peoples in the world,

or that some shops care more about serving their customers efficiently

than about enticing _you_, why not just stay home?



Florida and California were Spanish for centuries. I don't imagine

the then residents of those lands wanted to be ruled in English any

more than you want to learn Spanish. (I've even heard that the treaty

with Mexico made Spanish the official language of California!)



> It almost makes me feel as if I were in mexico (yes thats a small 'm').



Lots of place names have become common nouns, but this is the first

time I've seen "mexico" used as such -- what does it mean?



> Also, it is a waste of my tax dollars on teaching young immigrants their

> native languages rather than the English language. [ . . . ]



Agreed. And it's a waste of my tax dollars to imprison children and

teach them to love Big Brother and hate learning. Separation of school

and state will make a lot of divisive issues fade away.



> The breakdown of one source of communication is another aspect

> of how this country is falling apart.



More a symptom than a cause. The country-as-institution is no longer

inclusive or attractive.



Anton Sherwood  *\\*  +1 415 267 0685  *\\*  DASher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com

(in San Francisco, where almost everyone still speaks English)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 09:40:00 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Lolita



 Get fucked is OK for 1947 (at least Louisville area). I'm older than Larry

Harn, and although I was not a frequent user in 1947, I was a frequent

unratified overhearer (I get to say this twice in only a week or two!) or

target:



ME: Hey you guys, can I play basketball?

OLDER GUYS: Get fucked kid.



Dennis Preston (who ended up getting to play anyhow)

preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 10:33:48 EDT

From:  Arnold Zwicky <zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.OHIO-STATE.EDU>

Subject: DEG ADJ of a N



in my work on exceptional degree modifiers - those, like

HOW, SO, and TOO, that occur with a+N (HOW BIG A DOG) rather

than the bare N (VERY BIG DOG) - i have had to say a bit

about the variant with OF (HOW BIG OF A DOG), which is

nonstandard but fairly widespread in the u.s. i do *not*

need examples. but i would like to be sure that i haven't

disregarded any literature on the subject. this is not

easy to search for, given that the relevant crucial word

is OF. does anyone know of published articles of any

substance on the construction?



arnold (zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ohio-state.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 10:23:37 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: English-Only States



According to my records, Natalie, MS does have an official language law.

Or it did as of 1989. I hope that's not wrong. You'll need to check your

state statutes to confirm when it was passed and what it said. CAll your

law library for help in that.



Dennis

--



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 11:22:41 CST

From:  Joan Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>

Subject: Re: DEG ADJ of a N



See 1989 American Speech 64.94-95 and 1991 American Speech 66.213-230.



Joan Hall, DARE



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 14:36:20 -0400

From:  "Christopher R. Coolidge" <ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: Correction:Bigots, not Conservatives



 I don't think you need to worry; we just need to look at Canada to see

that mandated bilingualism doesn't work. Trouble is, they're afraid to

dismantle it because the lack of any law might have worse consequences.

As if a law that doesn't work is better than no law at all. Consider this:

most of Canada's bilingual people are in Quebec; most of the remainder are

originally from Quebec.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 13:09:49 PDT

From:  tom creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>

Subject: Re: DEG ADJ of a N



See the entry "of a" in Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage, p. 680.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 13:40:24 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: contempt vs. content



Hello,



I just received a message from someone in Virginia who is familiar

with the expression,



          "Familiarity breeds contempt,"



but has never heard,



          "Familiarity breeds content."



I, who have lived primarily in the western states (CA, WA, and UT),

had only heard the "content" version. Are both versions in common

usage now or has one of us merely misheard something?







Tom Uharriet

Springville, Utah

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admin.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 14:53:47 -0500

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



On Fri, 8 Sep 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



> I just received a message from someone in Virginia who is familiar

> with the expression,

>

>          "Familiarity breeds contempt,"

>

> but has never heard,

>

>          "Familiarity breeds content."







I've only heard the former version, never the latter. I've lived mostly in

the south and Texas but have northerner parents (UT, MN).



Kate Catmull          kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 14:07:20 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: English Only



We all learn more of our own languages by studying others'. Whatever

the law, we should all learn to speak outside of our own back yards.



As far as legislation goes, I believe that an English Only law could

help immigrants to integrate. Sometimes a little added motivation is

a good thing. I am particularly thinking of the children. In the

name of fairness, we have been seeking to teach them in their own

language so that we would not leave them out of the education system.

The result is that we teach the standard subjects and leave them out

of the whole Engllish speaking society. Until they learn English,

they will always be as foreigners (even if they and their parents

were born here). Living in the US without being taught English

certainly hurts them more than letting other academic subjects suffer

for a few semesters.



Some argue that theaching them English should be limited to their ESL

(English as a Second Language) class. However, it is clear that

total imersion in a language is the best way to teach it. It is

learned much faster, much more completely, and much more

permanantly. The entire educational system breaks down for these

disadvantaged children when we drag out the English learning while

teaching other subjects in other languages.







Tom Uharriet

Springville, Utah

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admin.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 14:11:22 -0600

From:  Bruce Gelder <bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



>I just received a message from someone in Virginia who is familiar

>with the expression,

>

>          "Familiarity breeds contempt,"

>

>but has never heard,

>

>          "Familiarity breeds content."

>

>I, who have lived primarily in the western states (CA, WA, and UT),

>had only heard the "content" version. Are both versions in common

>usage now or has one of us merely misheard something?



I've mainly lived in Utah, and I've never heard the "content" version--only

the "contempt" version.



--Bruce Gelder

bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]es.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 15:53:24 EDT

From:  Bruce Southard <ENSOUTHA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ECUVM.CIS.ECU.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-Only States



USA Today's Thursday edition (9/7/95) had a map identifying the

twenty-two states with English-only laws. The map also gave the year the

legislation was passed. I was surprised to see North Carolina on the

list; evidently the legislation passed in 1987, a couple of years before

I moved here. There is currently litigation involving the state's

lackluster performance in providing ESL instruction. I'm surprised that

one side or the other hasn't raised the English-only issue.



Bruce Southard

English Department

East Carolina University

ensoutha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecuvm1

ensoutha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecuvm.cis.ecu.edu

919-328-6041

919-328-4889 (FAX)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 13:13:03 PDT

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



"Familiarity breeds contempt" is the one of the two that makes sense to me, and

the only way I've ever interpreted it.



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 16:20:57 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



 "Familiarity breeds content."



Never heard it before.



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 10:01:31 -0600

From:  Larry Davis <DAVIS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WSUHUB.UC.TWSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-Only States



Kansas is not one of the English Only States, but, a number of years ago, the

state legislature did pass a law establishing "pi" at 3.0.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 16:33:40 -0400

From:  Virginia Clark <vpclark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: "contempt" or "content"?



    I agree with Katherine Catmull; I've heard only



        "Familiarity breeds contempt,"  never



        "Familiarity breeds content."



    I've lived mostly in New England.







Department of English

University of Vermont

Burlington, VT 05405



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 16:03:34 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



> I, who have lived primarily in the western states (CA, WA, and UT),

> had only heard the "content" version. Are both versions in common

> usage now or has one of us merely misheard something?



The only one I've ever heard is "familiarity breeds contempt." Until

now if I had heard somebody say "familiarity breeds content," I would

have assumed the person was playing around with the expression for fun.



  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

   native Mississippian still in Mississippi (with a few years spent

   in other Southern states)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 13:37:47 -0700

From:  David Harnick-Shapiro <david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BUCKAROO.ICS.UCI.EDU>

Subject: Re: ADS-ANS deadline September 1



On Thu, 31 Aug 1995 14:23, Betty Phillips writes:



> * This message contains the file 'PHILLIPS.ADS', which has been

> * uuencoded. If you are using Pegasus Mail, then you can use

> * the browser's eXtract function to lift the original contents

> * out to a file, otherwise you will have to extract the message

> * and uudecode it manually.



and all hell breaks loose. Some good things did come out of this

affair -- an increase in the number of humanists who appreciate the

difficulties in file exchange, for example. And I'll bet there's

quite a few who will think twice before assuming, "I use <insert

favourite word processor>, so *everyone* must use it"; they may

even disabuse a few colleagues.



So why am I dragging this up again? I *did* bother to try to find

out what the original post was, and thought I'd share with those more

noted for their morbid curiousity than for their reason.



Here we go: message comes in as a digest; program number one is my

mail reader. Burst the message out of the digest: that's program

number two. Three: an editor to remove the mail headers and other

non-uuencoded stuff (this step was probably not actually necessary).

Four: uudecode. This is the first step where an error is reported;

the file was probably not uuencoded properly, or the uuencoded version

may have been clobbered, but let's press on regardless. Five and six:

the Unix "file" and "less" commands, to try to figure out what kind of

file was created; decide it's not a Unix or text file (which was

unlikely, anyway), so I'll try a Mac. Seven: 'Fetch', to copy the file

from Unix to a Macintosh. Eight: MS Word for Mac. Word, when coerced

into opening the file, announced that it was converting a WordPerfect 5.1

file, but was unable to finish.



So: eight programs, two platforms, several machines and several networks

later, I have: an unreadable portion of a WordPerfect file. I love

the way computers empower me.



:-)



--------

   David Harnick-Shapiro   Information and Computer Science

     david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu   University of California, Irvine



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 16:14:26 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



I'm familiar with "familiarity breeds contempt" as a common phrase;

I've heard "breeds content" once or twice in contexts that suggested

it was intended as a rejoinder to "breeds contempt." Born, raised,

and living in New York City; attended college in Connecticut.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 14:18:36 PDT

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: English-Only States



>> Kansas ... but, a number of years ago, the

>> state legislature did pass a law establishing "pi" at 3.0.



Is this an urban myth? I've heard the same thing, but it was legistated by

either Kentucky or Tennessee.



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 18:11:17 -0400

From:  E Wayles Browne <ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORNELL.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



On Fri, 8 Sep 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



> Hello,

>

> I just received a message from someone in Virginia who is familiar

> with the expression,

>

>          "Familiarity breeds contempt,"

>

> but has never heard,

>

>          "Familiarity breeds content."

>

> I, who have lived primarily in the western states (CA, WA, and UT),

> had only heard the "content" version. Are both versions in common

> usage now or has one of us merely misheard something?

>

>

>

> Tom Uharriet

> Springville, Utah

> utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admin.712.nebo.edu



I know only "contempt"--I've lived in Massachusetts, Maryland, and now

New York State.

Wayles Browne, Cornell U. Dept. of Linguistics



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 22:04:52 EDT

From:  David Bergdahl <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783          <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX>

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



I've only lived in the east and have never heard the "content" one.



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens

"Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 22:16:35 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



This is a question that particularly interests me, since one of my recent

research programs has exploited this very contrast. Let me explain and

illustrate.

  In a paper I gave at a conference in Helsinki in 1993 (following earlier

oral presentations of the same material) and wrote up for the proceedings, I

sponsored a slogan of the form "Familiarity Breeds CNTNT". The paper,

called "Economy and Redundancy in a Dualistic Model of Natural Language", was

published in SKY 1993 ("SKY" is, of course, an acronym for the Linguistic

Association of Finland--don't ask), edited by Maria Vilkuna and Susanna Shore.

  The first section of the paper is called



I. FAMILIARITY BREEDS CNTNT: an overview



and a relevant passage refers notes that



 "...the inverse correlation of familiarity and linguistic form--the

  principle I dub Familiarity Breeds CNTNT--is reflected by minimal pairs

  in which the locally more familiar or frequent member retains or comes

  to acquire reduced expression."

(This principle, unlike its cover label, is hardly my invention; it was iden-

tified by Paul, Martinet, and especially Zipf. I'll spare you the details,

since this isn't a pragmatics list, but sample illustrations of its effects

include the degree of vowel reduction in frequent words [astronomy vs.

gastronomy]; the initialization of OSU with different interpretations in the

midwest, southwest, and northwest; and the "marking reversals" noted by

Witkowski and Brown in their Language paper in 1983.)



   So a few months after the paper appeared, I received an outraged note

from a friend and colleague, who (while not a native speaker) evidently shares

the majority dialect of ADSers...



>Date: Mon, 25 Apr 1994 11:36:07 -0500

>From: Knud Lambrecht <lambrec[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]emx.cc.utexas.edu>

>To: lhorn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yalevm.ycc.yale.edu

>Subject: breeds cntNt ???



>I hve nthng bt cntMPt fr yr ignrnce, lrry.

>Or is it the Finns that screwed up?



You can all see where this is heading, and you can probably anticipate my

response to Knud...



>No, no, it's intentional, and in any case it's not the Finns' fault. Now I'll

>admit that the more standard and no doubt the original form of the adage is

>the -MP- version. But I've heard the other quite a bit too, and assume it

>responds to "Out of sight, out of mind", just as the other (your) version

>responds to "Absence makes the heart grow fonder". (Sort of like "Look

>before you leap" and "Fools go in where angels fear to tread" vs. "He

>who hesitates is lost".) In any event, since it's got to represent the

>idea that the more familiar or predictable the expression is, the more

>compressed the content can be, while keeping the form

>constant (cnstnt?), I need it to be my version.  Of course, this assumes a

>finesse over CONtent and conTENT as well as over familiarity's breedee, but I

>assume you'll let that one pass. Too bad there's no OED for adages.



My background is New York City > Rochester > Southern California > Northern

California >...  I have no idea where I might have picked up the "content"

version, and I freely acknowledge that I'm not the most impartial source.

In any case, I'm mr thn cntnt to welcome a few speakers with no career stake in

their judgment to my side of the isogloss.





--Larry



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Sep 1995 to 8 Sep 1995

**********************************************





There are 9 messages totalling 231 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. contempt vs. content (5)

 2. English-Only States (2)

 3. English Only (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 8 Sep 1995 21:53:39 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



I've lived in and out of Utah. I knew "contempt" before I lived there,

but I've heard "content" used by old husbands who know better than to

rile their wives. But Marianna Dipaolo will be able to set us all right.

Cheers,

tlc



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 9 Sep 1995 11:00:29 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-Only States



 Last night I was told that Indiana legislated a figure for pi, (but I was

told this by a generativist syntactician, so I ignored the data, assuming

it only fit his dialect anyhow).

Dennis Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 9 Sep 1995 09:31:24 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



I've lived my entire life in California except for 5 yrs in Montana, and

in neither place have I heard the "content" phrase, though I can see its

'logic'. Somehow it reminds me of sitting in church as a child and

hearing about other children who drew pictures of "Gladly, the cross-eyed

bear" on hearing "...gladly the cross I'd bear".



On Fri, 8 Sep 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



> Hello,

>

> I just received a message from someone in Virginia who is familiar

> with the expression,

>

>          "Familiarity breeds contempt,"

>

> but has never heard,

>

>          "Familiarity breeds content."

>

> I, who have lived primarily in the western states (CA, WA, and UT),

> had only heard the "content" version. Are both versions in common

> usage now or has one of us merely misheard something?

>

>

>

> Tom Uharriet

> Springville, Utah

> utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admin.712.nebo.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 9 Sep 1995 10:00:05 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: English Only



I have a major problem with this English Only thread/t, and it has to do

with my four years in the early '70s as Administrator and Linguist for

the Northern Cheyenne Bilingual/Bicultural Education Program in Montana.



Not only is English Only an insult to the original inhabitants of this

country (except for administrative purposes?), it endangers their very

way of being in the world. As one Native American told me, "If we had

known then what we know now, we would have set up STRICTER immigration

laws!" And then, had they set up Native Language Only laws, so that by

their very speech the immigrants were always mindful of respect for life

and environment and mystery, unlearning their ancient European fear of

the forest and learning to go there for spiritual insight, unlearning

linear time and relearning curved cycles -- wow, what a different place

this would be! Problem is, if we lock English Only into place now, with

its insistence on static nouns and things instead of paying attention to

dynamic processes and relationships ("how can you tell the dancers from

the dance?"), I'm afraid our planet is doomed. The most chilling

statistic I ever heard (to nonsensically jump from language to culture)

is that if today China decided to use toilet paper the way we do, it

would take only about a year to deplete the rest of the planet's forests!



Finally, back to the comments below: they make so much 'surface sense',

true, but only from a MONOLINGUAL perspective! "You'll only confuse

them." There's a pernicious fallacy underlying this which analogizes

bilingualism to schizophrenia or something, that pathologizes that which

is normally quite healthy to those who have it. Effective language

learners often create new personalities for themselves in their new

languages (primarily to take the heat off their 'ego' for being grown up

but sounding like a 3 yr-old) -- what we can call POSITIVE multiple

personalities (again, usually pathologized in a MONOLINGUAL culture,

which insists on us ignoring the obvious and acting as though we have a

MONOPERSONALITY. The difference between healthy multiple personality

people and those with a disorder is that in the latter, the multiples

don't communicate, are closed off from each other, while in the former

they can easily pass information and knowledge to their other

personalities -- what normally happens to those who know more than one

language and culture.



Enuf.                  --Moonhawk



On Fri, 8 Sep 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



> We all learn more of our own languages by studying others'. Whatever

> the law, we should all learn to speak outside of our own back yards.

>

> As far as legislation goes, I believe that an English Only law could

> help immigrants to integrate. Sometimes a little added motivation is

> a good thing. I am particularly thinking of the children. In the

> name of fairness, we have been seeking to teach them in their own

> language so that we would not leave them out of the education system.

> The result is that we teach the standard subjects and leave them out

> of the whole Engllish speaking society. Until they learn English,

> they will always be as foreigners (even if they and their parents

> were born here). Living in the US without being taught English

> certainly hurts them more than letting other academic subjects suffer

> for a few semesters.

>

> Some argue that theaching them English should be limited to their ESL

> (English as a Second Language) class. However, it is clear that

> total imersion in a language is the best way to teach it. It is

> learned much faster, much more completely, and much more

> permanantly. The entire educational system breaks down for these

> disadvantaged children when we drag out the English learning while

> teaching other subjects in other languages.

>

>

>

> Tom Uharriet

> Springville, Utah

> utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admin.712.nebo.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 9 Sep 1995 10:04:02 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: English-Only States



Ah, Larry! I'd forgotten about that one -- to make it easier for the

children in math classes, if I remember. It's one of those things that

when you see it staring you in the face again, it just makes you sit back

and draw a deep breath and contemplate the world. Thanks for the inspiration!





On Fri, 8 Sep 1995, Larry Davis wrote:



> Kansas is not one of the English Only States, but, a number of years ago, the

> state legislature did pass a law establishing "pi" at 3.0.

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 9 Sep 1995 15:20:09 -0400

From:  "Christopher R. Coolidge" <ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: English Only



 I must confess I'm not even sure what the English language is any more. You

put the following people in a room together: a gang member from Harlem, a

Cockney from East London, an older person from a Kentucky mining town, a

shipyard worker from the Virgin Islands, a college professor from Harvard

Univ., a fisherman from Newfoundland,...OK, that's enough. All of them sup-

posedly speak the same language, but they'll all have a challenge trying to

understand each other.(I can't wait for the Cockney to ask the gang member

if he has any fags)Now, whose English are the powers that be proposing to

prescribe here? The English language will not stay still for anybody, laws

or no laws; if all 50 states pass an English only law, then we'll confound

them by speaking 50 different dialects and pidgins. If we passed a Cherokee-

only law, we'd all speak our own form of pidgin Cherokee colored by our eth-

nic background. What's the difference?



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 9 Sep 1995 14:59:01 -0700

From:  Sylvia Swift <madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



i've heard only the contempt version in my WY>RI>OR>CA life, and assumed

(before i read about the helsinki paper) that it was a joking version

along the lines of "abcess makes the heart grow fonder." out of

curiousity, i checked _bartlett's familiar quotations_, where most of the

stuff i used to think my mom made up turns out to be. there are no

content cites, four for contempt:

publius syrius, maxim 640

aesop, "the fox and the lion"

shakespeare, _the merry wives of windsor_, act i, scene i, line 258

cervantes, _don quixote_



sylvia swift

madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 9 Sep 1995 19:09:02 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



 No. No. Not 'Abcess makes the heart grow softer.' 'Absinth makes the brain

grow softer.'



As for the rest of what y'all are talking about (except for Larry Horn's

cutesy Helsinki title), I swear I don't know if y'all mean conTENT or

CONtent. If the latter, I think it was Foucault or Bakhtin who said it.



So what! They ain't linguists.



Dennis Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>



P.S.: I apologize for an earlier reference to Larry 'Harn.' Y'all should

assume it was my fingers not my vowels. I haven't been in Michigan that

long.



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 9 Sep 1995 18:52:58 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



On Sat, 9 Sep 1995, Dennis R. Preston wrote:



> No. No. Not 'Abcess makes the heart grow softer.' 'Absinth makes the brain

> grow softer.'



Actually, Absinth makes the heart grow Fonda (as in J).



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Sep 1995 to 9 Sep 1995

**********************************************





Topics of the day:



 1. contempt vs. content (6)

 2. Familiarity

 3. Absinthe

 4. Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply (4)

 5. pi=4



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 9 Sep 1995 23:52:43 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



Sylvia Swift writes:



>i've heard only the contempt version in my WY>RI>OR>CA life, and assumed

>(before i read about the helsinki paper) that it was a joking version

>along the lines of "abcess makes the heart grow fonder." out of

>curiousity, i checked _bartlett's familiar quotations_, where most of the

>stuff i used to think my mom made up turns out to be. there are no

>content cites, four for contempt:

>publius syrius, maxim 640

>aesop, "the fox and the lion"

>shakespeare, _the merry wives of windsor_, act i, scene i, line 258

>cervantes, _don quixote_





Now wait just a minute, here. Shakespeare, OK. But I'm prepared to wager

that not a single one of his mates--Publius Syrius, Aesop, Cervantes--wrote or

said "Familiarity breeds contempt". Since we're talking about the sentence

and not the proposition--I take it that both sides of the coin are sentiments

widely attested and indeed registered elsewhere in adages, as I mentioned in

my earlier note ("Absence makes the heart grow fonder" vs. "Out of sight, out

of mind")--the fact that Publius Syrius, Aesop or Cervantes might have written

something in Latin, Greek, or Spanish that translates as "Familiarity breeds

contempt" doesn't strike me as compelling evidence. I'm willing to grant that

when people mention familiarity breeding something, it's usually contempt

(or, as Mark Twain noted, children), but I'm still not sure whether the

occurrence of 'content' (and that's conTENT, not CONtent, except to make a

point) in this frame is an instance of a "pullet surprise" or simply a

variant. It doesn't appear to be a geographical variant, in any case; nor is

it (necessarily) a joke.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 9 Sep 1995 23:23:06 -0700

From:  Sylvia Swift <madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



On Sat, 9 Sep 1995, Larry Horn wrote:

> Now wait just a minute, here. Shakespeare, OK. But . . . .

> the fact that Publius Syrius, Aesop or Cervantes might have written

> something in Latin, Greek, or Spanish that translates as "Familiarity breeds

> contempt" doesn't strike me as compelling evidence . . . .

> when people mention familiarity breeding something, it's usually contempt

> . . . . but I'm still not sure whether the

> occurrence of 'content' in this frame is an instance of a "pullet

> surprise" or simply a variant. It doesn't appear to be a geographical

>variant, in any case; nor is it (necessarily) a joke.



actually, his name was publius syrus. my typing is far from perfect.

i'm not trying to offer compelling evidence of anything. but because

i've lived in the west most of my life and never heard it, i doubt the first

tentative hypothesis offered, that "content" may be the western variant.

publius syrus is also the guy who gave us a version of "strike while the

iron is hot" (maxim 262), which _bartlett's_ enters under john heywood

(who edited the first collection of english colloquial sayings), with

footnotes for rabelais and syrus. probably most americans encounter

"strike while the iron is hot" as the slogan on the cream of wheat box.

that doesn't mean that it didn't enter the language, and stay there for

awhile, in a popular/preferred translation. my mother's family (the older

generations anyway) pepper their speech with _bartlett's_y commonplaces.

none of them ever read cervantes, but their biblical aphorisms are always

in king james, their shakespeare (even though they seldom realize that's

what it is) is frozen in word order, and their classical allusions run to

what i imagine were british-schoolboy norms before 1920.



if i did want to offer my own hypothesis about this phenomenon (which i

emphatically don't--i'm going right back to lurking in three shakes of a

lamb's tail), i would guess this will not turn out to be a regional

variant, and that you won't find a body of written attestations for it

that turn out to be very old. further, i would guess that most americans

now add to the stock of proverbs they know at least as much from

television and radio as from dusty old books and things grandma used to

say. that means that if ricki lake decides to say "kneehigh to a

walkman," or "since hector was a puppy," it has, at least potentially, a

huge effect. i wonder if the real isogloss for content/contempt is not a

geographical but a temporal marking; that the usage will turn out to

begin after a paul harvey broadcast from 1962.



final attempts to ward off the blows i feel coming: i love this list

because of the possibilities it opens up. i don't want to defend a

position on this topic, and i look forward to further evidence which

points in other directions. i am a bookworm from a family of bookworms;

when i see a post about a mid-nineteenth century usage of pothouse

politician, i know from something i read somewhere that a pothouse is a

place where you get a pot of something restorative like soup or ale, that

it reminds me of dickens and penguin translations of stendhal, but i

can't put my finger on it. it makes me sad that we have to go to the _oed_

or _webster's third_ to remember what this meant; the suggestion that

since it means something like "a place where people smoke pot" in one

poster's speech community makes that meaning more likely in 1850 makes me

sadder still. and it makes me nervous that it makes me sad--how can i be

such a descriptivist about form and such a prescriptivist about content!



sylvia swift

madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 10 Sep 1995 00:56:49 -0700

From:  Sylvia Swift <madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



preemptive self-flaming of my last post: ok, so the isogloss metaphor

doesn't work.



sylvia swift

madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 10 Sep 1995 10:46:02 -0400

From:  David Muschell <dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



>Hello,

>

>I just received a message from someone in Virginia who is familiar

>with the expression,

>

>          "Familiarity breeds contempt,"

>

>but has never heard,

>

>          "Familiarity breeds content."

>

>I, who have lived primarily in the western states (CA, WA, and UT),

>had only heard the "content" version. Are both versions in common

>usage now or has one of us merely misheard something?

>

>

>

>Tom Uharriet

>Springville, Utah

>utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admin.712.nebo.edu



"Absence makes the heart grow fonder."

"Absence makes the false heart wander."



David



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 10 Sep 1995 11:13:37 -0400

From:  "E. Wayles Browne" <ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORNELL.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



If _comptroller_ can be pronounced _controller_, one would think that

_contempt_ could be pronounced _content_ (though I still wouldn't want

to pronounce it content, myself). Does anyone know how the first

pair of words came to resemble each other?



Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics

Morrill Hall, Cornell University

Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A.

tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h)

e-mail ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu (1989 to 1993 was: jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.bitnet //

jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.cit.cornell.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 10 Sep 1995 11:25:56 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



 The information Wales wants on 'comptroller' is in Pyles (The Origins and

Development of the English Language), p. 72.



'Comptroller' is a pseudolearned respelling of 'controller,' taken by

English from Old French. The fancy spelling is doubtless due to an

erroneous association with French 'compte' "count." The word has fairly

recently acquired a new pronunciation based on the misspelling.



Dennis Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 10 Sep 1995 11:20:54 -0500

From:  wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject: Familiarity



Was it Dorothy Parker who said. "Familiarity breeds"?



Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 10 Sep 1995 11:19:51 -0500

From:  wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject: Absinthe



And then there was the health problem that only a Japanese

gastrointestinal specialist was able to solve. The punch line that he

uttered to the person who had the problem was "Absinthe makes the farts

go 'Honda'."



Bob :-( Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 10 Sep 1995 18:56:36 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply



Pres Carter said "noo-key-er", not "noo-cue-ler".    DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 10 Sep 1995 18:21:26 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply



I thought it was LBJ who said "noo kya ler."



On Sun, 10 Sep 1995, Donald M. Lance wrote:



> Pres Carter said "noo-key-er", not "noo-cue-ler".    DMLance

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 10 Sep 1995 20:25:08 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply



Lotsa people say noo-cue-ler, but few say noo-key-er. Recently I noticed

'noo-cue-ler' in a 1950s film on the development of these "ultimate toys."

A clip from the 1950s film was used in a TV documentary. When I was in the

Army, in the Basic Officers Course in 1952-53 the major assigned to teach

us about atomic energy referred to what was dropped on the Japanese

cities as an "Adam bum." I think I've heard 'new-cue-ler' in British

speech too. I don't think there was an "originator" of this pronunciation,

as some postings have seemed to imply. There are some phonotactic rules

at work here, not disfluencies or bad imitations of standard speech or

unfortunate imitations of bad speech. The major taught us just the

fundamentals of nuclear fission and fusion and consequences thereof.

He had different medial consonants in these two words, as I do, and as

spelling suggests (analogous to poisson and poison in French).



It just occurred to me as I reread my text that Jimmy Carter probably

says nyu- rather than noo- in 'new-key-er' (Southern pronunciation of

'new'/'nu-').       DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 10 Sep 1995 22:26:23 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply



Is it safe to assume (as I always have, safely or not) that 'n(y)u-cue-lar'

comes from analogizing that particular adjective to others with the relatively

prevalent -(c)ular ending (popular, vernacular, spectacular, ocular)? This

would mean it's not exactly a matter of phonotactics per se. Evidence for

this line would be people who differentiate 'nucular' from 'nucleus' (vs.

*nuculus), where the phonotactics would be similar but the tendency for

analogizing would be less (given the relatively infrequent -(c)ulus ending for

nominals).



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 10 Sep 1995 20:35:24 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood <dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM>

Subject: pi=4



In 1897, Indiana's lower house passed "A bill introducing a new

Mathematical truth" which made some dubious claims about pi and

related matters. (It doesn't _directly_ give pi a value.) A

professor of mathematics from Purdue happened to visit the capitol

while the upper house was debating the bill. By his intervention,

it was referred to the Committee on Temperance and never seen again.

(This from "A History of pi" by Petr Beckmann, 1970.)



Anton Sherwood  *\\*  +1 415 267 0685  *\\*  DASher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Sep 1995 to 10 Sep 1995

***********************************************





There are 38 messages totalling 952 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. nuclear pron

 2. write/write to (2)

 3. Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply (5)

 4. nuclear (2)

 5. FOR English Only (9)

 6. CD-ROM Bibliographies

 7. pronunciation: jewelry (6)

 8. English-only (one last time)

 9. DEG ADJ of a N (2)

 10. Thank you (re Lolita)

 11. contempt vs. content (2)

 12. sugar and spice (4)

 13. English only cartoon

 14. Internet Term Stumper (fwd)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 10 Sep 1995 23:21:37 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: nuclear pron



In this household, the MidWestern Ph.D. husband (Ok, Dad's from

Oklahoma...) pronounces nuclear "atomic" whenever in hearing of the

pronchick wife (Oxford Desk Dict now out!)



rkm



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 08:30:02 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: write/write to



A colleague on another list asks whether the ff. construction would raise

the eyebrows of any American linguist:



I wrote Bethany.



(compare: "I wrote to Bethany")



And, what about the ff: "I wrote back to him." vs. "I wrote him back."



Comments?



Thanks,

Bethany K. Dumas, J.D.., Ph.D. | Applied Linguistics, Language & Law

Dep't of English, UT, Knoxville | EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu

415 McClung Tower        | (615) 974-6965 | FAX (615) 974-6926

Knoxville, TN 37996-0430    | See Webpage at http://hamlet.la.utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 08:44:55 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply



People who say 'nucular' also tend to say 'relator' for 'realtor' and

several others that I can't remember at the moment. They also tend to

misspell these words. The -er seems to be a factor in the phonotactics.

I'm sure I've also heard 'nuculus'.     DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 09:07:17 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: write/write to



> I wrote Bethany.

> (compare: "I wrote to Bethany")

>

> And, what about the ff: "I wrote back to him." vs. "I wrote him back."

>

> Comments?



All four sound perfectly normal to me.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 10:13:50 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply



Donald Lance just wrote:



>People who say 'nucular' also tend to say 'relator' for 'realtor' and

>several others that I can't remember at the moment. They also tend to

>misspell these words. The -er seems to be a factor in the phonotactics.

>I'm sure I've also heard 'nuculus'.     DMLance



Is the former claim one there's any empirical evidence for? I tend to think

each of these tendencies (along with others--I have always said 'jewlery' for

'jewelry' but don't do any of the aforementioned bits) goes its own way and

has its own constituency. My impression is that mine (jew-le-ry) is (of

course) more common than 'nucular', which in turn is more frequent than

'feb-u-ary', which in turn is heard more often than 'liberry'. I'm not sure

where 'relator' (for 'realtor') fits in, but I think there may be a number of

different factors responsible for the variation in these forms, including

phonological and phonetic tendencies (ease of articulation, least effort,

whatever), analogizing (see my line on 'nucular'), and variation in underlying

form (which would be supported by Don's point about the variant spellings).



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 11:58:42 -0400

From:  "H. Stephen STRAIGHT (Binghamton University/SUNY)"

     <sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply



On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Larry Horn wrote:

> Donald Lance just wrote:

> >People who say 'nucular' also tend to say 'relator' for 'realtor' and

> >several others that I can't remember at the moment. They also tend to

> >misspell these words. The -er seems to be a factor in the phonotactics.

> >I'm sure I've also heard 'nuculus'.     DMLance

>

> Is the former claim one there's any empirical evidence for? I tend to think

> each of these tendencies (along with others--I have always said 'jewlery' for

> 'jewelry' but don't do any of the aforementioned bits) goes its own way and

> has its own constituency. My impression is that mine (jew-le-ry) is (of

> course) more common than 'nucular', which in turn is more frequent than

> 'feb-u-ary', which in turn is heard more often than 'liberry'.



Well, for what it's worth, the American Heritage Dictionary, known for its

heavily prescriptive cast, explicitly condones 'feb-u-ary' but not

'nu-cu-lar' or 'li-ber-ry', and it's silent on 'jew-ler-y'. Larry's

probably right to doubt that all these non-orthographic pronunciations

hang together, but he's probably wrong to assert that they're

implicationally scaled. Instead, these variants seem to exhibit a rather

complex geo- and socio-lectal distributional diversity.



H Stephen STRAIGHT, Anthro/Ling/Lgs Across the Curric, Binghamton U (SUNY)

Box 6000, Binghamton NY 13902-6000  Tel: 607-777-2824  Fax: 607-777-2889



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 09:21:05 PDT

From:  tom creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>

Subject: nuclear



May I respectfully suggest to all you linguistic scholars our there that you

consult Merrian Webster's Dictionary of English Usage--available at about

$20..00 per copy --for well-informed, data-supported, non-anecdotal inform-

ation about such matters as the variant pronunciations of _nuclear_, .



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 10:31:27 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: FOR English Only



Christopher R. Coolidge <ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU> wrote:



> If all 50 states pass an English only law, then we'll confound

> them by speaking 50 different dialects and pidgins. If we passed a Cherokee-

> only law, we'd all speak our own form of pidgin Cherokee colored by our eth-

> nic background. What's the difference?

>



Was that an emotional appeal or merely innocent confusion of issues?



Aside from educational objectives to teach Standard American English

grammar/usage, I know of no current drive to mandate the use of any

particular dialect. That is a different issue altogether. English

Only legislation eliminates states' requirements to provide education

and state materials in any language that is spoken (as a native

language) within those states. When California, for example (unless

I am mistaken), originates public materials, they must be available in

several languages at the expense of the tax payer. When printing in

English, however, they do not write one version in the South Central

L.A. Black English dialect, another in the East L.A. Hispanic English

dialect, another the dialects of Chinatown, desert towns, mountain

regions, beach teens, San Fernando Vallians, etc. Instead, they

write their material (as closely as they know how) in Standard

American English--that language that is found in most of our school's

grammar books.



This so-called "Standard" English is not morally superior or more

legitimate than any other dialect. Nor is English morally superior

to other languages. English Only legislation does not discourage

people from using their own dialects. Nor does it prevent one from

learning a second or third language. It simply says that those

states are able to publish in English without being required to make

multiple language versions. Likewise, they can teach in English

without protecting their students from needing to learn this

language.



We all contribute to this e-mail discussion without difficulty even

though we speak very different dialects. I have no more problem

understanding entries from South Africa, Texas, New York, Alabama,

Boston, or Watts than I do from any other country, state, or city.

Why? Because no matter what we have learned to speak, we all come

close enough to being able to write in Standard American English to

be able to freely communicate. English Only legislation has nothing

to do with dialects. What is does have to do with is eliminating our

mandated non-expectation of immigrants to learn to communicate as

freely in Standard American English as we do.







Tom Uharriet

Springville, Utah

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admin.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 12:42:49 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply



Stephen Straight writes:



>>            ...My impression is that mine (jew-le-ry) is (of

>>course) more common than 'nucular', which in turn is more frequent than

>>'feb-u-ary', which in turn is heard more often than 'liberry'.



>Well, for what it's worth, the American Heritage Dictionary, known for its

>heavily prescriptive cast, explicitly condones 'feb-u-ary' but not

>'nu-cu-lar' or 'li-ber-ry', and it's silent on 'jew-ler-y'. Larry's

>probably right to doubt that all these non-orthographic pronunciations

>hang together, but he's probably wrong to assert that they're

>implicationally scaled. Instead, these variants seem to exhibit a rather

>complex geo- and socio-lectal distributional diversity.



I agree entirely, and apologize for the false impression that I was making any

such claim (of implicational scaling). I was just trying to indicate my

(admittedly impressionistic) sense of relative frequency of these innovative

phonologies (if innovative they are). As for Tom Creswell's suggestion, OK.

Mea culpa. I'll try to track down a copy of Merriam-Webster Dict. of English

usage to get the real dope on how 'nucular' got to be pronounced that way and

how that relates or fails to relate to 'jewlery', 'Febuary', 'liberry',...



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 13:13:01 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: CD-ROM Bibliographies



After reading the exchanges here and listening to some lackluster debate on

Jesse Jackson's show yesterday in regard to English Only, I had to fire off

a piece this morning for the local newspaper about my failure to see the

unified culture of America, but now I have to go to work.







The Problem: The CD-ROM version of the MLA Bibliography is horribly

expensive. Indeed, it is so expensive (over $2000 per year) that my

college (and I'm sure many others) has has not been able to purchase it.

My university system has tried to get it licensed for the entire system,

but no one's had any success in budging the MLA.



The Question: When I was in graduate school, I always double-checked my

bibliography work in literature against the entries in the MHRA annual

bibliography, which seemed to be as thorough as the MLA bibliography was in

the late 1970s. Is the MHRA bibliography available on CD-ROM? Is it

cheaper than the MLA bibliography?









Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 13:12:14 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: pronunciation: jewelry



I've always pronounced it as "jewl-er-ee," and occasionally wondered

why it's pronounced that way, but I've never heard any other pronunciation.

How do the rest of you pronounce "jewelry"?



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 14:09:22 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: pronunciation: jewelry



>I've always pronounced it as "jewl-er-ee," and occasionally wondered

>why it's pronounced that way, but I've never heard any other pronunciation.

>How do the rest of you pronounce "jewelry"?

>

>Vicki Rosenzweig

>vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

>New York, NY



I say it the way that you do. A common pronunciation in Central Georgia

sounds like "jewry."







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 12:14:20 -0700

From:  Milton Azevedo <ctlntt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



All other issues aside, I wish people would remember, when

they talk about FL materials produced at tax payers' expenses,

that the FL speakers who use those materials --electoral

information and ballots or driving learners'manuals, to mention

only two categories-- also pay taxes, so it isn't as if they

were benefitting from monolinguals' unvoluntary largesse.



---------------------------------------------------------------

Prof. Milton Azevedo       Dept of Spanish & Portuguese

Univ of California, Berkeley   Berkeley CA 94720 - USA

E-MAIL: ctlntt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu Tel. (510) 642-0471 or -2116

---------------------------------------------------------------



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 14:22:06 -0500

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: pronunciation: jewelry



On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Vicki Rosenzweig wrote:



> I've always pronounced it as "jewl-er-ee," and occasionally wondered

> why it's pronounced that way, but I've never heard any other pronunciation.

> How do the rest of you pronounce "jewelry"?



"Jewl-ree."



I'm trying to think if I've ever heard it pronounced your way--I think I

have, and thought "That person is Not From Here." ;-)



Kate Catmull      kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 14:21:00 CDT

From:  Tom Murray <TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.KSU.EDU>

Subject: English-only (one last time)



In a recent post to this list, I incorrectly identified Michigan as a state tha

t had passed English-only legislation. Sorry about that. The other 20 states

I listed were correct; numbers 21 and 22 are Louisiana and Montana.



                --Tom Murray <TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.KSU.EDU>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 15:49:34 -0400

From:  "H. Stephen STRAIGHT (Binghamton University/SUNY)"

     <sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: pronunciation: jewelry



> Subject: pronunciation: jewelry

> I've always pronounced it as "jewl-er-ee," and occasionally wondered

> why it's pronounced that way, but I've never heard any other pronunciation.

> How do the rest of you pronounce "jewelry"?

> Vicki Rosenzweig

> New York, NY



JEWL-ry (two syllables), every time. But then I'm from Shuh-KAW-go, so

what can you expect?



H Stephen STRAIGHT, Anthro/Ling/Lgs Across the Curric, Binghamton U (SUNY)

Box 6000, Binghamton NY 13902-6000  Tel: 607-777-2824  Fax: 607-777-2889



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 16:06:05 -0400

From:  "H. Stephen STRAIGHT (Binghamton University/SUNY)"

     <sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply



My apologies to Larry Horn for misrepresenting his statement of subjective

impressions of the relative frequency of particular non-orthographic

pronunciations as a claim that they were implicationally scaled. A less

polite list-er might have taken me to task for the misrepresentation.

Thank you, Larry.



Even relative-frequency judgments are, however, suspect. For example, my

own experience growing up in a houseful of English teachers in the Midwest

found feb-yu-air-ee, but NONE of the other examples cited in this thread.



Presumably, by the way, it's not at all a matter of not knowing how to

spell. After all, there are innumerable examples of words that no one

ever pronounces in accordance with their spelling (take the word "word",

for example). And, interestingly, all of the realtors I know say

reel-a-ter and reel-a-tee, but most of them seem to spell these words in

the prescribed manner. By the way, remember that Jimmy Carter has a degree

in nuclear engineering. Education and expertise don't make the

difference, either.



H Stephen STRAIGHT, Anthro/Ling/Lgs Across the Curric, Binghamton U (SUNY)

Box 6000, Binghamton NY 13902-6000  Tel: 607-777-2824  Fax: 607-777-2889



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 15:42:51 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: nuclear



>May I respectfully suggest to all you linguistic scholars our there that you

>consult Merrian Webster's Dictionary of English Usage--available at about

>$20..00 per copy --for well-informed, data-supported, non-anecdotal inform-

>ation about such matters as the variant pronunciations of _nuclear_, .



OK, so this linguistic scholar consulted (a bit tricky, since the Yale library

system has not seen fit to order a copy of M W's D of E U) and read its well-

informed, data-supported, non-anecdotal entry for 'nuclear', from which I

learned that speakers who pronounce it 'nucular' "have succumbed to the gravi-

tational tug of a far more prevalent pattern" of words ending in -cular

('particular', 'spectacular', 'vernacular', etc.). Gee, I could have sworn

that's what I had mumbled (anecdotally). I'm not sure what makes Merriam-

Webster's opinion  more 'well-informed', 'data-supported', or 'non-anecdotal'

than mine, but I am forced to admit that "succumbing to the gravitational tug

of a far more prevalent pattern" certainly SOUNDS more impressive than "analo-

gizing that particular adjective [nuclear] to others with the relatively pre-

valent -(c)ular ending". Unlike my posting, M-W's D of E U does give other in-

stances of the same analogic--oops, sorry, GRAVITATIONAL--reasoning, including

'similar' pronounced 'simular' (gravitating toward 'cellular', 'angular',

'fabulous'), which I find not entirely convincing (I suspect the existence of

'simulate' might be involved as well), and 'nuptual' (tugged toward 'con-

ceptual', although I'd have thought 'actual', 'factual' would be stronger

forces).  Oh, and 'jewlery' and 'relator' are both listed as (equally) non-

standard metatheses, which I assume doesn't imply that they're equally

frequent. No data cited anywhere along the way, as far as I can tell, but

interesting reading on the level of (dare I say) anecdotal speculation.



 Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 14:08:52 PDT

From:  tom creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



My thanks and admiration to Mr. Uharriet for shining the clear light of

reason into the emotional murk of this "discussion."



Tom Creswell



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 14:08:47 -0600

From:  POLSKY ELLEN S <Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLORADO.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



Can anyone really define STANDARD American English? We can't say that

it's what the newscasters use, because they speak on t.v. in a variety of

dialects. To say it's what the grammar books in school use is not

satisfactory because there are many traditionally ungrammatical

structures in the grammar books. So, what is "standard" English?



If the Official English movement is in favor of having non-native

speakers of English communicate in English, do they also support,

and will the government, then, fund ESL programs across the country? As

an ESL instructor, I can report that our programs are being CUT, not

expanded!



Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 14:45:54 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



Milton Azevedo <ctlntt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU> writes,



> All other issues aside, I wish people would remember, when

> they talk about FL materials produced at tax payers' expenses,

> that the FL speakers who use those materials --electoral

> information and ballots or driving learners'manuals, to mention

> only two categories-- also pay taxes, so it isn't as if they

> were benefitting from monolinguals' unvoluntary largesse.



While of course it is true that they all contribute to the tax base

of each state, there is a significant difference in operating costs

--and in educational costs--between English Only guidelines and FL

mandates. Everyone pays more without English Only legislation.



On the other hand, what evidence do we have that non-English speakers

are collectively better off in the long run by not being expected to

learn English? It is often argued that they are better served, at

least economically, by helping them to assimilate.





Tom Uharriet

Springville, Utah

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admin.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 15:13:16 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



POLSKY ELLEN S <Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU> writes:



> Can anyone really define STANDARD American English? We can't say

> that it's what the newscasters use, because they speak on t.v. in

> a variety of dialects.  . . .  So, what is "standard" English?



Let's not kid ourselves. All across the country, at least on a most

basic level, we tell our students to recognize the difference between

sentence fragments and complete sentences. Even though local

dialects may permit these fragments, they are generally less welcome

in school papers. I have only taught in three states, but I have

good reason to believe that the rules are the same across the

continent. Local influences may impact our writing styles, and even

dictate which aspects of the school grammar books are ignored, but

they do not usually lead us to produce writing books to promote our

own dialects.



There are many shades of blue. Calling one shade "blue" does not

require us to rename every other shade. There are many shades of

Standard American English. Aren't we beyond trying to name a

particular dialect as the true standard? It was mentioned that some

grammar books contain errors. The fact that we can recognize those

errors supports the idea that we know the standard--or that we can be

educated to know it. We cannot then pretend that such a standard

does not exist. Such pretence may be PC, but we know better.







Tom Uharriet

Springville, Utah

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admin.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 17:21:50 EDT

From:  Douglas Bayer x3701 3NW <dbayer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YUKON.HQ.ILEAF.COM>

Subject: Re: DEG ADJ of a N



Arnold,



Do you have a simple explanation for the OF in these

"how long of a drive" constructions?



Many speakers object strongly to the intrusive "of."

Yet to my ear its quite natural. I'd love to learn

a defense...



--Doug Bayer



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 18:25:43 -0400

From:  "Cynthia L. Moore" <CLM777[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: pronunciation: jewelry



I grew up in Cleveland Ohio and pronounce it JOO WOOL RY. I'm not certain,

however, whether that is the standard pronciation in that area. Cindie

Moore, now of Arlington, VA.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 17:43:34 -0500

From:  Nancy Dray <nancy_dray[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNEWS.UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Thank you (re Lolita)



            Subject:                Time:5:16 PM

 OFFICE MEMO     Thank you (re Lolita)         Date:9/11/95

I just wanted to thank all those who responded to my query regarding possible

linguistic anachronisms in an upcoming Adrian Lyne film of "Lolita." I faxed

Mr. Lyne's assistant a summary, with excerpts from OED cites and ADS-L replies.

 I also suggested she consider ADS if she is ever seeking language consultants

in the future (I gave her Allan Metcalf's address as a contact for the

society). Needless to say, she was very pleased--and eager to get on-line and

explore the 'Net herself.  So, how can we encourage other movie directors and

TV producers to check this sort of thing (and pay us, too)? And can this be

useful in creating good p.r. for dialectology, lexicography, linguistics? Just

a thought...

  Nancy L. Dray (n-dray[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 16:57:56 -0600

From:  Marianna Di Paolo <m.dipaolo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M.CC.UTAH.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



>I've lived in and out of Utah. I knew "contempt" before I lived there,

>but I've heard "content" used by old husbands who know better than to

>rile their wives. But Marianna Dipaolo will be able to set us all right.

>Cheers,

>tlc





Well, I wish I could, Tom, but I have never heard the expression with

anything other than "contempt". But so far the discussion suggests that

"content" only occurs in Utah and maybe only in small towns. Is that

right?









Marianna Di Paolo

m.dipaolo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]m.cc.utah.edu

Linguistics Program

2300 LNCO

University of Utah

Salt Lake City, UT  84112



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 16:06:13 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: pronunciation: jewelry



I've always said 'jew-[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]l-ri as long as I can remember.



On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer wrote:



> I've always pronounced it as "jewl-er-ee," and occasionally wondered

> why it's pronounced that way, but I've never heard any other pronunciation.

> How do the rest of you pronounce "jewelry"?

>

> Vicki Rosenzweig

> vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

> New York, NY

>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 16:08:56 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



STANDARD English is written. There is no spoken standard. Those are

really two different languages.



On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, POLSKY ELLEN S wrote:



> Can anyone really define STANDARD American English? We can't say that

> it's what the newscasters use, because they speak on t.v. in a variety of

> dialects. To say it's what the grammar books in school use is not

> satisfactory because there are many traditionally ungrammatical

> structures in the grammar books. So, what is "standard" English?

>

> If the Official English movement is in favor of having non-native

> speakers of English communicate in English, do they also support,

> and will the government, then, fund ESL programs across the country? As

> an ESL instructor, I can report that our programs are being CUT, not

> expanded!

>

> Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU)

>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 19:23:07 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



What an incredible question. Of course I can (and have). Standard English

is the English spoken in Michigan. If you don't believe it, ask the people

of Michigan.

Dennis Preston



<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>



P.S.: One of my nastiest local tricks is to chuckle when Michiganders

speak. When thay ask me what's so damn funny, I say 'They way y'all talk

just tickles the shit out of me' (with my native South Midland phonology,

of course). The range of emotions goes from puzzlement to anger, but

similar comments from Michiganders to 'real' dialect speakers (that is,

speakers of English from practically everywhere else) never raises a local

eyebrow. Fun, huh?





>Can anyone really define STANDARD American English? We can't say that

>it's what the newscasters use, because they speak on t.v. in a variety of

>dialects. To say it's what the grammar books in school use is not

>satisfactory because there are many traditionally ungrammatical

>structures in the grammar books. So, what is "standard" English?

>

>

>Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 19:51:10 EDT

From:  Arnold Zwicky <zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.OHIO-STATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: DEG ADJ of a N



what i am about to say in print about this is that this

use of OF is presumably an extension of the rule for NPs

with quantity (rather than degree) modifiers like MORE,

LESS, ENOUGH, A BIT, in combination with singular count

nouns: MORE OF A LIAR, ENOUGH OF A LINGUIST, A BIT OF A

CHARMER.



people who have the OF A i talked about have it *exactly*

where others have modifiers with A (HOW BIG A DOG etc.).

so what i'm saying is that there is no "intrusive" OF

at all, but rather an extension of a widespread rule

for "special" modifiers of N (those that don't just

combine with bare N, but take indef.art + N): use the

"flag" OF. what i'm saying is that those of us who say

HOW BIG A DOG etc. have an extra wrinkle in our grammars;

the OF-flagged NP is what we should expect for a dependent

that combines with a full NP, but instead there is no flag.



arnold



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 19:23:18 EDT

From:  Ahmen Dodd <Ahmen_Dodd[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NOTES.CCH.COM>

Subject: sugar and spice



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------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 19:31:04 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: sugar and spice



Uh oh. Spammers are beginning to figure out ways to fool the listserv

spam-filter.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 20:33:17 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: sugar and spice



Natalie, can you elaborate? On spammers and spam-filters?



Thanks,

Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 19:41:34 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: sugar and spice



> Natalie, can you elaborate? On spammers and spam-filters?



Spam is junk mail sent to multiple lists. A spammer is one who sends

such mail. The latest version of listserv has a filter that catches most

spam and bounces it to the listowner, who can forward it on to the list

if it turns out to be a legitimate posting. I'm not sure exactly how

the filter works (exactly what it looks for as an indicator of likely

spamming -- ain't morphology great), but it seems to work quite well.

So far I haven't seen the spam-filter catch anything but real spam.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 22:38:11 EDT

From:  David Bergdahl <bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: English only cartoon



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 11-Sep-1995 10:34pm EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614) 593-2783



Subject: English only cartoon





Am I the only lister who noticed the cartoon in the News of the Week in Review

section of the Sunday [NY] Times? Senator Dole, holding up a loaf of what

appears to be Wonder Bread, declares that White Bread is the OFFICIAL bread of

the U.S. and that pumpernickel, pita, &c. &c. should no longer be bought, eaten,

enjoyed &c. &c.



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens

"Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"







Received: 11-Sep-1995 10:38pm



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 22:52:47 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



Marianna di Paolo writes (in response to Tom Clark),



>>I've lived in and out of Utah. I knew "contempt" before I lived there,

>>but I've heard "content" used by old husbands who know better than to

>>rile their wives. But Marianna Dipaolo will be able to set us all right.

>>Cheers,

>>tlc



>Well, I wish I could, Tom, but I have never heard the expression with

>anything other than "contempt". But so far the discussion suggests that

>"content" only occurs in Utah and maybe only in small towns. Is that

>right?

>



Well, Marianna, I can assure you that while my "content" may have been picked

up in New York (Manhattan or Long Island--the source, no doubt, of my

"jew-le-ry"), or perhaps in California (L.A. or Berkeley), or even in the

midwest (Ann Arbor or Madison), it most definitely was not contracted in a

small town in Utah.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 23:12:18 -0400

From:  TERRY IRONS <t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



> particular dialect. That is a different issue altogether. English

> Only legislation eliminates states' requirements to provide education

> and state materials in any language that is spoken (as a native

> language) within those states.

>... English Only legislation does not discourage

> people from using their own dialects. Nor does it prevent one from

> learning a second or third language. It simply says that those

> states are able to publish in English without being required to make

> multiple language versions. Likewise, they can teach in English

> without protecting their students from needing to learn this

> language.

>

> be able to freely communicate. English Only legislation has nothing

> to do with dialects. What is does have to do with is eliminating our

> mandated non-expectation of immigrants to learn to communicate as

> freely in Standard American English as we do.

>

>

>

Question: who is the "we" above?



English Only legislation is also a veiled position stating that

monolinguals need not learn to communicate as freely in another language

just as its adherents would have non-native speakers of English lects do.



The Equal Protection Clause of one of them-thar emendationments to that

that-thar constituation thang that them guys writ in Anglish whan they

shud of knowed to use some really good langage likes Latin or Iroquois

(and why they din't use Frenchy is beyond me cuz Jefferson writed lots of

stuff in Frenchy) is the impetus underlying multilingual documents and

bilingual education in the US of A (WAVE THAT FLAG HIGH, GOOD OLE BOYS!)

There was some Supreme Court case to that effect. I do not have my

materials on it at home so I cannot give the exact citation. It involved

the Board of Education of San Francisco and the local Chinese community.

For a public institution to fail to communicate to a citizen constitutes

a violation of equal protection before the law. The burden of

communication rests in the public institution, not the five year old who

has grown hearing only Spanish, which has been spoken continuosly on this

continent longer than English. (Or insert Chinese in the above sentence

to get closer to the original case. For dialects and the burden of

communication there is an appellate (I believe) court decision from Ann

ARbor.



But these are facts that are known and I would presume respected by all

members of this list. If not, I humbly say, get the F*** off. SO much

for my flame this week.



My point in raising these facts is this: can state legislation, as the

posting that I cite above suggests, in fact overturn the Supreme Court

decision of 1974 mentioned above. Can a state pass legislation that

violates the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment to the US

Constitution? English first maybe, but I question that. English Only?

NEVER.



Terry





(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 22:34:15 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Internet Term Stumper (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Mon, 11 Sep 1995 09:27:19 -0400

From: Terry L. Wirick <af278[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]freenet.Buffalo.EDU>

To: stumpers-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU

Subject: Internet Term Stumper







Fellow Stumpers,



I hope I don't get spammed for this, but does anyone know how the

term 'spamming' got coined for mass e-mailing?



I checked the Internet books that are available in my library, but

spamming is not mentioned.



Thanks,



Terry Wirick

Erie County Library System

Erie, PA



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Sep 1995 to 11 Sep 1995

************************************************





There are 24 messages totalling 856 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Internet Term Stumper (fwd) (6)

 2. Pronounciation of ...

 3. spam: can't help it

 4. Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply (2)

 5. nuclear (2)

 6. sugar and spice

 7. pronunciation of oxymoron, jewelry, etc.

 8. FOR English Only (5)

 9. contempt vs. content (2)

 10. English Only

 11. please send info (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 11 Sep 1995 21:45:58 -0700

From:  Sylvia Swift <madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Internet Term Stumper (fwd)



On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Daniel S Goodman forwarded:



> I hope I don't get spammed for this, but does anyone know how the

> term 'spamming' got coined for mass e-mailing?



i read that it's from the metaphor of spam (yes, the trademarked pork

product) hitting a fan, and the resulting havoc. i don't have a copy at

home, but i think it's mentioned in _internet for dummies_.



sylvia swift

madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 00:41:29 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of ...



The folks I know who say "relator" also tend to say "joolery" for jewelry -

but they're not necessarily the folks who say nucular. Also, of those I've

heard say nucular - they usually say nucleus just fine.



I wrote the above before I read all the other responses which also included

the jewelry example. So responding to the thread, I say joolree usually,

although occasionally I actually say jooalree. Grew up in NY.



Re the other examples; I (as pron editor) included febyooery in AHD (hadn't

realized I was considered all that prescriptive) because it is so prevalent

and accepted - whereas liberree isn't. When I was still in school, we were

taught that the definition of "correct" speech and pronunciation was that

which was spoken by the educated folks in any given area.



Sometimes, however, we more-or-less descriptivist pronchics still get

unhappy. At Random House, we put in the nucular pron because Carter said

it (referencing The President's Speech theory), and originally were going

to put a pronunciation modifier along with it: "nookleear, often nookular"

to be really read as, "and entirely too often".



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 08:46:45 -0500

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: Internet Term Stumper (fwd)



On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Sylvia Swift wrote:

> On Mon, 11 Sep 1995, Daniel S Goodman forwarded:

>

> > I hope I don't get spammed for this, but does anyone know how the

> > term 'spamming' got coined for mass e-mailing?

>

> i read that it's from the metaphor of spam (yes, the trademarked pork

> product) hitting a fan, and the resulting havoc. i don't have a copy at

> home, but i think it's mentioned in _internet for dummies_.



On Usenet, where spam is a much greater problem than it is on e-mail

lists, there is a group called news.admin.net-abuse.misc (I think--maybe

no "admin" in the name) to discuss and deal with the problem.



They have an excellent and informative FAQ which among other things gives

a very presice definition of spam. And I believe it was in that FAQ

I read that the term "spam" is a reference to the ancient Monty Python

skit about the restaurant where you can't order anything that doesn't

include spam--and where a chorus of men keeps leaping up to chant "SPAM

SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM . . ." endlessly.



It's an apt and amusing etymology and I hope it's true.



Kate Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 09:29:37 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Internet Term Stumper (fwd)



I can't find a citation for this (I thought it was in "The New

Hacker's Dictionary," but all that says is "from the MUD

community"), but I think "spam" in its net sense derives from

the Monty Python skit about spam, spam, eggs, and spam, probably

via science fiction fandom.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 10:00:58 EDT

From:  Douglas Bayer x3701 3NW <dbayer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YUKON.HQ.ILEAF.COM>

Subject: Re: Internet Term Stumper (fwd)



Every discussion of this that I've read eventually comes to

the conclusion that the fan story, however compelling to

all who know the old saloon joke, is a "reinterpretation."



Wired and others "in-the-know" would have us believe "spam" is

based on the incessant chant in the Monty-Python song of the

same name (sung to the Charge! tune familiar to hockey fans):



    "SPAM-SPAM-SPAM-SPAM! SPAM-SPAM-SPAM-SPAM! ..."



--LONG---



(Doesn't ring a bell for you either?)



Most "Did you know...?" column-fillers state one version or the

other as plain fact.



But a few cast doubt on the "fan" story and state that those

"in the know" claim the MP song is the real origin, then ask

the reader to decide...



So the whole story is that people tell both versions.

And just as a jazz pianist can play a chord with one finger--

by setting you up to expect a different note that e plays--

the word is the richer for both, and for the debate.



Members of this list may be qualified to judge which is more

plausible.



Personally, I'm intrigued by the idea that it started with the

cult song, but as it gained currency, it outran its obscure

reference. Far more people have heard, or even told, the

s***-hit-the-fan joke at least once in their lifetime than have

ever heard or sung the MP song.



--Doug





> > I hope I don't get spammed for this, but does anyone know how the

> > term 'spamming' got coined for mass e-mailing?

>

> i read that it's from the metaphor of spam (yes, the trademarked pork

> product) hitting a fan, and the resulting havoc. i don't have a copy

at

> home, but i think it's mentioned in _internet for dummies_.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 08:02:23 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Internet Term Stumper (fwd)



On Tue, 12 Sep 1995, Douglas Bayer x3701 3NW wrote:



> Personally, I'm intrigued by the idea that it started with the

> cult song, but as it gained currency, it outran its obscure

> reference. Far more people have heard, or even told, the

> s***-hit-the-fan joke at least once in their lifetime than have

> ever heard or sung the MP song.

>

> --Doug

>



Problem is, Doug, it only takes ONE PROGRAMMER or whatnot to get such a

term started. Besides, I'm still not sure what s*** hitting the fan, in

either joke (?) or formulaic speech form, has to do with spam.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 11:28:01 EST

From:  Boyd Davis <FEN00BHD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU>

Subject: spam: can't help it



A story in the Charlotte (NC) Observer last year explained that Charlotte

was the spam-capital of the universe in that more people either actually

ate Spam, or were willing to confess to such, than anywhere else. I do not

expect this thrilling tidbit to explain variation or isogloss shift, but

thought you'd want to know...



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 09:28:14 -0700

From:  David Harnick-Shapiro <david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BUCKAROO.ICS.UCI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Internet Term Stumper (fwd)



On Mon, 11 Sep 1995 22:34, Daniel S Goodman forwarded:



> I hope I don't get spammed for this, but does anyone know how the

> term 'spamming' got coined for mass e-mailing?

>

> I checked the Internet books that are available in my library, but

> spamming is not mentioned.



THE source for computer-related slang is the "Jargon file"; while

not the work of trained lexicologists, at least native speakers tend

to agree with its pronouncements. And it says:



    spam vt. [from "Monty Python's Flying Circus"] 1. To crash a

    program by overrunning a fixed-size buffer with excessively

    large input data. See also buffer overflow, overrun screw, smash

    the stack. 2. To cause a newsgroup to be flooded with

    irrelevant or inappropriate messages. You can spam a newsgroup

    with as little as one well- (or ill-) planned message (e.g.

    asking "What do you think of abortion?" on soc.women). This is

    often done with cross-posting (e.g. any message which is

    crossposted to alt.rush-limbaugh and alt.politics.homosexuality

    will almost inevitably spam both groups).



    The second definition has become much more prevalent as the

    Internet has opened up to non-techies, and to many Usenetters it

    is probably now (1995) primary. .



(I happened to look at the copy at

http://www.fwi.uva.nl/~mes/jargon/s/spam.html; as far as I am aware, the

original is somewhere at MIT. Now here's quality scholarship for you! :-)



I actually first heard the term used to describe intentionally flooding

someone's mailbox with nuisance email (a sense which is clearly related

to those given above). Further, it was clear that this sense always

implied the activity was done as a form of vigilante justice.



Oh, and if the etymology is a little unclear to non-Python fans: there

is a skit in one of the Monty Python episodes where a couple in a

restaurant, attempting to discuss their order, are repeatedly interrupted

and overwhelmed by a chorus of Vikings singing "Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam!

Wonderful Spam, Lovely Spam!...".



--------

     David Harnick-Shapiro  Information and Computer Science

       david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu  University of California, Irvine



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 13:02:19 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply



Remember that what's REAL is idiolect, not dialect, the latter being a

construct hypothesized by linguists or school teachers or politicians

or whoever. Phonotactic rules are real, thus in idiolect. And idiolects

vary. Forces such as analogy certainly do influence idiolect, but only to

the extent and in the ways in which the language-acquirer's idiolectal

phonotactics allow. It shoud not be surprising that some people might use

some of the "metathesized" forms like 'relator', 'nucular,' nuculus',

'jewlery', and others that aren't hovering above my keyboard at the moment --

but not use all of them, and behave differently when tired, drunk, irritated,

feeling cool, being facetious, burdened by linguistic anxiety, whatever.

Larry asked about empirical evidence for my claim that people who nuculate also

relatate. That's a really good thing to investigate; one might even find

some interesting statistical tendencies in individual behaviors. When I,

so filled with confidence, posted my insight, I had in memory the behavior

of a vast sample of 1.0 native speakers: a former Chair of the English

Department at the U of MO. When I noted his 'relator' he said he was aware

that he said 'nucular' (and maybe 'nuculus') but he'd never noticed 'relator'.

He also says 'jewlery'. One needs larger samples, of course, to make

heavy claims.

We tend to use the term "metathesis" for these forms as if we are somehow

subconcsiously aware of the form in which these forms exist out there in

the ether, alongside phlogyston, and then screw them up when we speak.

                                DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 12:45:53 PDT

From:  tom creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>

Subject: Re: nuclear



I wish to apologize for having made it seem, due to my inexperience

with email and listserv protocol, that my observation regarding the use-

fulness of MWDEU seemed to apply to Larry Horn's message, to which

it was attached. To the contary, I regarded his message as extremely

reasonable, well-informed, and thoughtful. I was reacting, instead, to

numerous messages that appear on the ADSlist which do not have

those qualities, and which might be improved by reference to the work

cited.



However, I must now express regret that, having apparently believed that

his message was the one under attack, Horn replied with an _ad linguam_

attack of a sort that has characterized numerous messages about "English

Only."



 MDEU is not written with an audience made up specifically of linguists

and other academics in mind. Its use of "gravitational" rather than "analogic"

in describing the forces leading to such variant pronunciations as those

under discussion is consistent with its aim toward a larger, less specialized,

audience. It is also, moreover, indisputably "data based," being derived from

a study of the more than 14 million citations, including pronunciation records, in

the Merriam Webster citation file.



Again, my apologies to Larry Horn, but my recommendation of MWDEU stands.

It is an excellent source of thoughtful,well-informed, data-based _non -anecdotal_

information about English usage, and anyone with an interest in usage should find

it a most useful source of information.



Tom Creswell



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 12:21:01 PDT

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: sugar and spice



Other than the fact that this spamadvertisement is a waste of time and money,

did anyone else catch the following error in its text:



Order within the next week and receive also Sights I Never Knew Existed. This

                      ^^^^^^



Unless maybe he's also selling pictures too.



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 15:11:54 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: pronunciation of oxymoron, jewelry, etc.



D. M. Lance makes some interesting points, but I want to add that while

we may subconsciously be aware of an alternate form to the one we're using

when we say things like "nucular," that awareness may be buried very deeply.

I was not being facetious when I asked how people pronounce "jewelry":

I've only ever heard it as three syllables. On the other hand, many

native speakers are aware that there are people out there who will correct

some of our pronunciations, and may thus alter our speech to avoid this

(including avoiding certain words altogether if there's an alternative

that we're confident of our pronunciation of).



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 14:00:53 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



TERRY IRONS <t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU> wrote:



> But these are facts that are known and I would presume respected by all

> members of this list. If not, I humbly say, get the F*** off.





Where do you get off telling those who do not share your views to get

the F*** off? If your views cannot stand the scrutiny of friendly

disagreement, maybe you should reconsider your argument before

resorting to ***'s.



Now, back to the issue:

Terry asks,



> can state legislation . . .

> overturn the Supreme Court

> decision of 1974 mentioned above [?]



Terry,



You obviously know they CAN pass English Only legislation. That

capacity is well established by those who have done so already. The

question we have been addressing is whether they SHOULD. A growing

number of states say they should. Others say the whole nation

should. There are solid, well thought out reasons for it. There are

also good reasons not to do it. We have heard both from thinking

members of our group. It is not a good guys vs. bad guys issue. We

simply see the benefits and the drawbacks and weigh them according to

what we see is the most relavent. What more can we do? I hope you

have found enough diversity of thought on this issue to make the

discussion meaningful. To the credit of all of us, there is nothing

that any of us can say to make all of us feel the same way about this

issue. We are all too intelligent for that to happen. We think for

ourselves. A primary purpose of this discussion is to hear views

that are not our own. We gain understanding that way.







Tom Uharriet

Springville, Utah

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admin.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 14:11:56 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



Marianna Di Paolo <m.dipaolo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M.CC.UTAH.EDU> writes,





> Well, I wish I could, Tom, but I have never heard the expression with

> anything other than "contempt". But so far the discussion suggests that

> "content" only occurs in Utah and maybe only in small towns. Is that

> right?





 Marianna,



 I apreciate your attempt to identify a pattern for this usage. I

don't think you've quite found it; but we don't get anywhere without

at least trying. Although I live in Utah now, I think I picked that

phrase up before moving here. Most likely, I got it from Los

Angeles (where I've lived most of my life). Please let me know if you

ever hear it used at the University of Utah.



Thanks,





Tom Uharriet

Springville, Utah

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admin.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 16:23:28 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: English Only



This issue has turned a normally polite and friendly forum into a nasty,

face-scratching free-for-all. It has been difficult to stay calm. We have

moved out of linguistics and into politics and maybe religion.



It is interesting that our local paper (the Milledgeville _Union-Recorder_)

devoted the whole editorial page today to the issue--without my column,

which will probably appear on one of the days reserved for community

people. I guess I should prepare for some foul responses.



So why does this issue get so emotional? Why does my grammar class for

English-education majors get so emotional? I guess we're all idiots armed

with idiolects.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 15:33:57 CST

From:  salikoko mufwene <mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply



In Message Tue, 12 Sep 1995 13:02:19 CDT,

 "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU> writes:



>Remember that what's REAL is idiolect, not dialect, the latter being a

>construct hypothesized by linguists or school teachers or politicians

>or whoever.

 Is 'idiolect" really more REAL than 'dialect'? Aren't both abstractions

relative to speech? Or are you just speaking about levels of abstraction?

Sali.

***********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene

University of Chicago

Dept. of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 13:45:23 -0700

From:  "christina.myers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ucop.edu" <christina.myers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCOP.EDU>

Subject: please send info



Sorry to clutter everyone's mailbox with this request.



Can someone please forward the information for unsubscribing from this list?



Thanks very much.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 16:12:49 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: please send info



> Can someone please forward the information for unsubscribing from this list?



I'm answering on the list in case anybody else has the question. To

unsubscribe, send this command to listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu:



unsub ADS-L



(Case doesn't matter. I normally use upper case when telling somebody

what to do because a lower-case l looks like a 1.)



To stop mail temporarily, send this command:



set ADS-L nomail



To start it again, send this:



set ADS-L mail



To see a list of subscribers, send this:



review ADS-L



To change to digest, send this:



set ADS-L digest



  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 17:46:46 -0400

From:  TERRY IRONS <t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



On Tue, 12 Sep 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



>

> Where do you get off telling those who do not share your views to get

> the F*** off? If your views cannot stand the scrutiny of friendly

> disagreement, maybe you should reconsider your argument before

> resorting to ***'s.





My position, by analogy, is very similar to the intent of English Only

Legislation. It basically says, You no speak the English, You get the

Hell out. WHo are the ENGISH ONLY people to be saying this to other

americans. I was not presenting views. I was reminding people of

some facts. Mandating one language in America is a violation of the

constitution. Then after one language is mandated, they start telling us

what we can say in it.



>

> You obviously know they CAN pass English Only legislation. That

> capacity is well established by those who have done so already. The

> question we have been addressing is whether they SHOULD. A growing

> number of states say they should. Others say the whole nation

> should. There are solid, well thought out reasons for it. There are

> also good reasons not to do it. We have heard both from thinking

> members of our group. It is not a good guys vs. bad guys issue. We

> simply see the benefits and the drawbacks and weigh them according to

> what we see is the most relavent. What more can we do? I hope you

> have found enough diversity of thought on this issue to make the

> discussion meaningful. To the credit of all of us, there is nothing

> that any of us can say to make all of us feel the same way about this

> issue. We are all too intelligent for that to happen. We think for

> ourselves. A primary purpose of this discussion is to hear views

> that are not our own. We gain understanding that way.



I used the wrong modal. Dennis Baron pointed out to me that one such

state statute was found to be unconstitutional, on 1st amendment

grounds. Others have been upheld or not challenged. Does anyone know of

cases in which state mandates for one language only have been upheld.



I have seen no thoughtful reasons in support of ENGLISH ONLY. Only

bigoted provincialism. ANd I still don't know who this "we" and "our

group" is. From my perspective, the issue is a good guys vs. bad guys

issue. Those who wish to impose their language on other citizens of this

nation are quite simply imperialist oppressors. What benefit accrues to

the hispanic or navaho or chinese child who is denied equal access to our

society because he or she did not happen to be born in a white middle

class suburb where SAE is spoken? What are these solid reasons?



But my ire rises again. As Wayne suggests, this discussion has gone from

polite to nasty. I fear I am to blame. But I cannot abide bigotry

masquerading as rational thought. And I must speak. Where reason does

not suffice, I have found insult to work.



Terry





(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 17:50:39 -0400

From:  "Christopher R. Coolidge" <ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



On Sat, 9 Sep 1995, THOMAS CLARK wrote:



> On Sat, 9 Sep 1995, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

>

> > No. No. Not 'Abcess makes the heart grow softer.' 'Absinth makes the brain

> > grow softer.'

>

> Actually, Absinth makes the heart grow Fonda (as in J).

>

 Uh...It isn't abcess makes the heart grow fungus?



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 17:08:49 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



They can _pass_ anything, including a law stating that only

red-haired Masons with degrees from the University of North Dakota

can vote if it rains on Election Day. The question is whether, if

the law they pass is challenged, it will stand up to the Constitution.

Does anyone here know whether an English-only law has been tested in

the courts?





Vicki Rosenzweig

Associate Editor, Computing Reviews

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

1-212-626-0666



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 17:46:04 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



Did anyone catch the irony of TERRY IRONS calling ALL English Only

people bigots?



This discussion has really gotten out of control. Where before we

were all seeing evidence of valid thought on both sides, it has

degenerated to sensationalism and abuse. I had hoped that in spite

of it all, we were at least all seeking to understand both sides of

the issue. However, statements such as



> I have seen no thoughtful reasons in support of ENGLISH ONLY.



suggest to me that this exchange is not really a discussion at all.

If we close our eyes to others' views and scream our own as the only

true American way, we have lost sight of the worth of open exchange.



The same individual who told me to get the F*** off of this network

if I don't share his views now brings the first amendment into the

argument. Would he eliminate my freedom of speech here? Am I

abusing this freedom by not sharing his view?



Any legislation that is poorly written is likely to be overturned.

It doesn't make the primary concept behind the legislation wrong.

Nor does allowing the law to stand make it right.



Sensationalism was employed in suggesting that the EOL will open a

way for the government to control what we say. Also, if the EOL

is written as it should be, it does not prevent people from speaking

their own languages. It merely establishes a language for conducting

state business. Either way, it is totally unrelated to what people

have the right to say. There are enough reasonable arguments against

EOL. We don't need this kind of emotionalism. Likewise, speaking of

emotionalism, contrary to what was written, English Only proponents

are certainly not un-American. To the contrary, I have already

argued that EOL facilitates assimulation of immigrants into main

stream America. That concept of American unity does not fall under

the heading of un-American. On the other hand, neither does the

anti-EOL position. A common language facilitates and preserves

national unity. We, of all people, recognize the power of language.

That's what makes EOL such a hot topic for us.



I suggest that a national language has the potential of preserving

our national unity. In light of the growing rate of immigration of

non-English speakers, we need to use language to hold us together.

Canada is getting close to a breaking point--divided by language. We

too are building non-English communities which we are subsidising--to

keep them non-English speaking. By subsidising, I mean our taxes are

being spent to keep them comfortable in their non-English American

lives. EOL does not give anyone the right to complain about their

native languages. It simply gives states the right to work in a

single language. I am NOT suggesting that non-English states will

seek to break away from the union. I am suggesting that they are

already broken away in the sense that they--because of language

differences--are distanced from main stream America.



No other nation that I am aware of is facing the language challenge

that we are up against. In spite of our technological advances, such

as this e-mail, communication is breaking down due to language

diversification. With the rate of growth of non-English communities,

it is increasingly difficult to maintain viable communication.



As I reflect on how awful it was for the common people a couple

thousand years ago to have the Greek language spread across the

world, I feel for them. It was not comfortable. It was not fair.

It was not nice. But without it, it would have been impossible to

run the empire. We open our doors to people of all languages. I do

not object to that. If I were born in some of their native lands, I

would probably want to move here too. But now that they are here, we

have a country to run. I see EOL as a way to help hold it all

together.



Are we speaking the same language? To the extent that we do, we can

commune. If, after all that has been written, you still see no

thoughtful reasons for EOL (whether or not you agree with them), then

we must not be speaking the same language. If we are divided by

language, consider how fragmented American society is becoming with

the tax-supported preservation of non-English speaking.



Whether it is fair, nice, or comfortable, Americans need to be able

to freely communicate with most other Americans. On that point, I

think we all agree. The question is how to reach that end. The

Non-EOL approach is for the government to pay to communicate with

everyone in their own language--even if that means that those people

cannot in turn communicate with most other Americans. The EOL

approach is to have everyone learn a common language so that everyone

can communicate with everyone and be thereby united in language--even

though many people may be offended by needing to pay for their own

translators until they themselves learn the national language. Both

approaches have merit. Both have serious flaws. As you know, I

would rather empower them with a second (or third, . . .) language

then protect them from it. I see it as giving them fishing poles

instead of more fish. I wish it were possible to teach them all

English. If not that, I would settle for making it more politically

comfortable for them to learn it.



As with all things, we can find examples of things not working as

they should. I wish we could be sure that ESL programs would

increase with EOL. The truth is, because of all the factors involved

in funding anything, we would propbaly see it increase in some

districts and decrease in others. Perhaps, people in those states

which have passed EOL should lobby for aggressive ESL programs for

young and old alike. In states where such legislation is yet coming,

if you cannot block it (if you believe you should), maybe you can

work ESL funding into the same bill.



One last quote from Terry:

> Where reason does not suffice, I have found insult to work.



Does this tactic really work among thinking people? I hope not.

When reason does not suffice, let's open our minds to see the other

side. When our views are not shaken by that broader understanding,

let's try better reasoning. But even then, we won't convince anyone

who isn't willing to be convinced--insults or no insults.





Tom Uharriet

Springville, Utah

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admin.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 17:02:10 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: nuclear



Okay, Tom -- I don't know about anyone else, but you piqued my interest

the first time with "gravitational," and the second time moved me to

action. Can you explain this linguistic usage of the term? Since Whorf

has one or two unpublished papers on gravity in the Yale Archives, it

sounds like something he would have done, blending physics and

linguistics. Explain please. (Tho if you don't do it quickly I won't see

it until Monday.)



                    -- moonhawk



On Tue, 12 Sep 1995, tom creswell wrote:



> MDEU is not written with an audience made up specifically of linguists

> and other academics in mind. Its use of "gravitational" rather than "analogic"

> in describing the forces leading to such variant pronunciations as those

> under discussion is consistent with its aim toward a larger, less specialized,

> audience. It is also, moreover, indisputably "data based," being derived from

> a study of the more than 14 million citations, including pronunciation records, in

> the Merriam Webster citation file.

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 20:45:18 -0400

From:  TERRY IRONS <t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



On Tue, 12 Sep 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



> This discussion has really gotten out of control. Where before we

> were all seeing evidence of valid thought on both sides, it has

> degenerated to sensationalism and abuse. I had hoped that in spite

> of it all, we were at least all seeking to understand both sides of

> the issue. However, statements such as



I will admit that I do not seek to understand the other side at all. I

intend to do what I can to frustrate its efforts at every turn.



> Sensationalism was employed in suggesting that the EOL will open a

> way for the government to control what we say. Also, if the EOL



In telling us what language we have to use to be heard in our

communities, government is de facto controlling what we say.



>

> I suggest that a national language has the potential of preserving

> our national unity. In light of the growing rate of immigration of

> non-English speakers, we need to use language to hold us together.



WHY? This is not a thoughtful argument. It is an unsupported assumption.





> Canada is getting close to a breaking point--divided by language. We

> too are building non-English communities which we are subsidising--to

> keep them non-English speaking. By subsidising, I mean our taxes are

> being spent to keep them comfortable in their non-English American

> lives. EOL does not give anyone the right to complain about their



Again, who is this "we"? Each of my posts has asked this question and

yet you do not respond. Your use of "we" is a rhetorical manipulation

that implies exclusion of the non-we, who are, of course, in your world,

non-English speaking. As someone pointed out, "they" pay taxes too.







> When reason does not suffice, let's open our minds to see the other

> side. When our views are not shaken by that broader understanding,

> let's try better reasoning. But even then, we won't convince anyone

> who isn't willing to be convinced--insults or no insults.

>



Yes, I have used non-logical rhetoric in my posts. But I have also

stated two very important facts about EOL that you have not responded to

in the least. (1) EOL violates equal protection under the law. Did you

even see my next to last paragraph about the situaiton in education?

Your response does not address it. (2) EOL amounts to

exclusion/economic domination based on language cultural heritage.



These last two points are facts that suggest EOL is therefore wrong.

You have presented no argument in favor of EOL based on facts. You

make some vague assertions (which are not facts) about national unity

crap, some american identity crap, and some confused comments about

communication and taxpayer expense. The cost of multiple language

publications, for all of its benefits, is nothing near what we spend

perhaps weekly developing things to kill people.



I have considered your position and I find it to lack support.

I would expect you to consider the two powerful reasons against EOL that

I have presented in my posts. I do not, however, seek to convince you. I

only hope that others see through the deception going on here, that EOL

is somehow good for AMerica. It is not, and this conclusion is not

really open to debate. SOme people know what is right and others don't.



I would prefer to ignore all of this and get on with studying language

variation in AMerica, the purpose of the AMerican Dialect Society. But I

can't stick my head in the sand and ignore the politics going on. ANd

the mood in AMerika seems to be growing nasty again. Especially when

those on one side tell us we are being sensational and ignoring their

position, when the truth is exactly the opposite.



Tom, I am not part of your "we."





Terry Irons



(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Sep 1995 to 12 Sep 1995

************************************************





There are 30 messages totalling 936 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. jewelry

 2. not much of an answer

 3. Internet Term Stumper

 4. FOR English Only (13)

 5. nuclear

 6. FOR English, AGAINST Closed Minds

 7. Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply (4)

 8. for English only

 9. Bounced Mail

 10. SED Volumes

 11. Quick, Dumb Question

 12. contempt vs. content

 13. Pronounciation of ... (2)

 14. English Only



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 12 Sep 1995 22:09:11 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood <dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM>

Subject: jewelry



> How do the rest of you pronounce "jewelry"?



Two syllables, jule-ri.



*\\* Anton                       Ubi scriptum?



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 00:23:29 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood <dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM>

Subject: not much of an answer



Doug Bayer scripsit:

> Do you have a simple explanation for the OF in these

> "how long of a drive" constructions?

> Many speakers object strongly to the intrusive "of."

> Yet to my ear its quite natural. I'd love to learn

> a defense...



How about this: it's the partitive "of" in "a pint of beer"

or the French "des cailloux" (`some pebbles', lit. `of the pebbles').



Not much of an answer, I admit.



--

Nancy Dray says:

>    [...] So, how can we encourage other movie directors and

> TV producers to check this sort of thing (and pay us, too)? [...]



I dunno, but I can think of no end of subjects

on which I wish they would consult *some*body.



Anton Sherwood  *\\*  +1 415 267 0685  *\\*  DASher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 00:25:26 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood <dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Internet Term Stumper



> I hope I don't get spammed for this, but does anyone know how the

> term 'spamming' got coined for mass e-mailing?



An explanation that I find plausible cites a Monty Python skit

set in a coffee-shop where every item on the menu contains Spam.

"Egg and Spam; egg, bacon and Spam; egg, bacon, sausage and Spam;

Spam, egg, sausage and Spam; egg, bacon, Spam and sausage; ..."



As the waitress recites the menu, a group of Vikings, sitting at a table

in the background, chant: "Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam, lovely Spam, wonderful

Spam...." increasing in volume until they drown out the waitress.



The aptness of the allusion is enhanced by the image of Spam hitting a fan.



*\\* Anton                       Ubi scriptum?



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 07:42:40 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



> No other nation that I am aware of is facing the language challenge

> that we are up against. In spite of our technological advances, such

> as this e-mail, communication is breaking down due to language

> diversification. With the rate of growth of non-English communities,

> it is increasingly difficult to maintain viable communication.



I assume you're talking about the number of different languages spoken

in the US. Right? Has anybody established a maximum number of different

languages appropriate for maintaining viable communication? Obviously it

has to be four or more since Switzerland seems to do ok.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 08:46:26 PDT

From:  tom creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>

Subject: Re: nuclear



I respectfully suggest that Dan Alford consult almost any English dictionary.

At random, I looked in the nearest at hand, the _Random House Unabridged

Dictionary_. S.v. "gravitation, I find this: " 3. a movement or tendency toward

something or someone: [example] the gravitation of people toward the sub-

urbs. At the end of the entry, the derived form _gravitational_ is given.



I have found in the past that reading too much of the work of Benjamin Lee Whorf

can often result in a gravitational pull toward muddlement.



Hope this clears up your puzzlement, Dan.



Tom Creswell



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:05:21 PDT

From:  tom creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



I wonder if Terry Irons can tell me what part of the US Constitution forbids

the mandating of English as the national language



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:02:51 CST

From:  salikoko mufwene <mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



>> No other nation that I am aware of is facing the language challenge

>> that we are up against.



  Perhaps not as hysterically? The development of the Sociology of Language

is in part attributable to misguided promises to help Third World countries

solve their economic and political development problems by eliminating

societal multilingualism. The literature dealt with the epiphenomenon and

ignored almost everything that mattered for the "development" of those

countries. Of course, there was also the hypermetropic illusion that those

problems were characteristic of the Third World in the wake on "political

independence."



>>In spite of our technological advances, such

>> as this e-mail, communication is breaking down due to language

>> diversification. With the rate of growth of non-English communities,

>> it is increasingly difficult to maintain viable communication.



>I assume you're talking about the number of different languages spoken

>in the US. Right? Has anybody established a maximum number of different

>languages appropriate for maintaining viable communication? Obviously it

>has to be four or more since Switzerland seems to do ok.



 Could you both start by explaining what you mean by "viable

communication?" at what level of interaction?



Sali.

***********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene

University of Chicago

Dept. of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:20:11 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: FOR English, AGAINST Closed Minds



TERRY IRONS writes:



> I will admit that I do not seek to understand the other side at all.



That says it all. I see no reason to continue this discussion. We

(yes, Terry, including yourself) will continue to differ on this one

until I come across more compelling evidence than has been presented

by this group (Terry, by "this group," to answer one of your earlier

questions, I mean subscribers to ADS-L). Until I change my view, if

I ever do, let's (you and me) understand that it is okay for us to

differ in our views of what is best for the United States.



Best Wishes,

















Tom Uharriet

Springville, Utah

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admin.712.nebo.edu









Tom Uharriet

Springville, Utah

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admin.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:39:50 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply



Yes, Sali, clearly constructs such as 'dialect' are real, as are

observable patterns of behavior of all sorts. Individuals have neurons

that do something physical when they speak, as well as when they understand

language. That's the "reality" I was referring to.  One's concept

of a neuron may be a construct, but a neuron is a concrete physical

entity. Likewise the size and contour of the vocal tract is "real" and

surely plays a part in the production of speech -- as well as the musculature

in the chest and larynx that is activated as syllables are produced.



The "reality of the phoneme" is another instance of something that is

real, though probably with no single, specifiable physical locus. Here I'm

thinking of the 1920s or 30s article (by Sapir?).   DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 11:09:48 CDT

From:  Barbara Need <barbara[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAPIR.UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



The question was raised about whether English Only laws have

reached the Supreme Court. As far I know, not in this go-round.

However (I think I read it in an _English Today_ article

sometime in 88-89--I can check when I go home), laws of

this nature were passed in the early part of the century

(mostly relating to use of German) and one of those DID make

it to the Supreme Court. It was declared unconstitutional

(but I don't remember on what grounds).



Barbara Need

University of Chicago--Linguistics



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:14:50 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



> >> In spite of our technological advances, such

> >> as this e-mail, communication is breaking down due to language

> >> diversification. With the rate of growth of non-English communities,

> >> it is increasingly difficult to maintain viable communication.

>

> >I assume you're talking about the number of different languages spoken

> >in the US. Right? Has anybody established a maximum number of different

> >languages appropriate for maintaining viable communication?

>

>  Could you both start by explaining what you mean by "viable

> communication?" at what level of interaction?

>



Back to basics, communication at all levels of interaction is easier

to establish and maintain when a language is shared. The greater the

diversification, the more complicated the problem of communication

becomes. This line of thought is nothing new. Who among us finds it

as easy to communicate with people whom they do not share a common

language? Why complicate the obvious? If I moved to Poland, I would

need to find someone to translate for me. (Notice, I would take

responsibility for that. I would not expect the Polish government to

pay for it--even if I do pay taxes there.) Until I learn their

language, I would be an outsider. My ability to communicate--and to

become one with those people--would only increase as I aquired

Polish. At what level of communication does my language skills not

matter?

Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 12:23:08 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply



>Yes, Sali, clearly constructs such as 'dialect' are real, as are

>observable patterns of behavior of all sorts. Individuals have neurons

>that do something physical when they speak, as well as when they understand

>language. That's the "reality" I was referring to.  One's concept

>of a neuron may be a construct, but a neuron is a concrete physical

>entity. Likewise the size and contour of the vocal tract is "real" and

>surely plays a part in the production of speech -- as well as the musculature

>in the chest and larynx that is activated as syllables are produced.

>

>The "reality of the phoneme" is another instance of something that is

>real, though probably with no single, specifiable physical locus. Here I'm

>thinking of the 1920s or 30s article (by Sapir?).   DMLance



You may be thinking of something else, but you can get close with



de Saussure, Ferdinand. "The Object of Linguistics." Ch. III of _Course

in General Linguistics_. Ed. Charles Bally and Albert Sechehaye. 1915.

Trans. Wade Baskin. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1959. See p. 15: "4) Language

[langue?] is concrete, no less so than speaking [parole?] . . . .

Linguistic signs, though basically psychological, are not abstractions;

associations which bear the stamp of collective approval--and which added

together constitute language--are realities that have their seat in the

brain . . . .Besides, linguistic signs are tangible; it is possible to

reduce them to conventional written symbols . . . ." [Untangle that

syntax!]



Sapir, Edward. "The Sounds of Language." Ch. III of _Language_. 1921.

Rpt. New York: Harcourt, 1949. See p. 55: "The inner sound-system,

overlaid though it may be by the mechanical or the irrelevant, is a real

and immensely important principle in the life of a language."





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 12:20:28 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: for English only



Here's a copy of my note on the court question:



Can a state pass legislation that

>violates the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th amendment to the US

>Constitution? English first maybe, but I question that. English Only?



Federal law takes precedence over state law. In Meyer v. Nebraska (1923),

the US Supreme Court ruled that Nebraska could not prohibit the teaching of

foreign languages in its public and private schools.  The case was decided

on equal protection, in this case the right of f.l. instructors to pursue

their profession, and the right of parents to decide their children's

education.



A couple of years ago the US Court of Appeals (9th circuit?) ruled

Arizona's official English law unconstitutional on First Amendment grounds:

the law prohibited state employees from conducting business in any language

other than English. The governor of Arizona, who opposed the law anyway,

did not appeal that decision.



Other state official language laws have withstood constitutional tests or

have not been challenged.



Dennis

--



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 13:03:42 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



> >>In spite of our technological advances, such

> >> as this e-mail, communication is breaking down due to language

> >> diversification. With the rate of growth of non-English communities,

> >> it is increasingly difficult to maintain viable communication.

>

> >I assume you're talking about the number of different languages spoken

> >in the US. Right? Has anybody established a maximum number of different

> >languages appropriate for maintaining viable communication? Obviously it

> >has to be four or more since Switzerland seems to do ok.

>

>  Could you both start by explaining what you mean by "viable

> communication?" at what level of interaction?

> Sali.



My response assumed that "viable communication" in the original posting

meant communication sufficient to maintain some sort of national identity.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 13:05:49 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Bounced Mail



****************************************************************

 REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING

 YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES

 TO ADS-L IN THE HEADERS.

****************************************************************

> Date:     Wed, 13 Sep 1995 11:20:59 -0400

> From: "L-Soft list server at UGA (1.8b)" <LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

> Subject:   ADS-L: error report from ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU

>

>The enclosed message, found in the ADS-L mailbox and shown under the spool ID

>3266 in the system log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice

>for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to

>the list has been found in mail body.

>

> --------------- Message in error (53 lines) --------------------------

> From:     Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu>

> Organization: Springville High School

> Date:     Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:17:03 MST

> Subject:    Re: FOR English Only

>

> > Date sent:   Tue, 12 Sep 1995 17:08:49 EDT

> > Subject:    Re: FOR English Only

>

> > They can _pass_ anything, including a law stating that only

> > red-haired Masons with degrees from the University of North Dakota

> > can vote if it rains on Election Day. The question is whether, if

> > the law they pass is challenged, it will stand up to the Constitution.

> > Does anyone here know whether an English-only law has been tested in

> > the courts?

> >

> >

> > Vicki Rosenzweig

>

> If they do not hold up, we have no need to fear them. I believe it

> was Terry that said one was already overturned. The issue of why it

> was overturned is relavant. I do not know the reason, but it

> probably went too far. It is one thing to give states the right to

> decide how many languages they will print their material in. It is

> quite another to tell residents that they cannot have Chinese

> billboards. The former seems very reasonable to me, the latter would

> excite the kind of anger in me that Terry has been expressing.

>

> Best Wishes,

>

>

>

>

> Tom Uharriet

> Springville, Utah

> utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admin.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 13:05:49 -0500

From:  "Gregory J. Pulliam" <HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



Tom,

Why have you STILL not responded to Terry's points? Why are you so eager

to latch on to her anger and so unwilling to engage the primary arguments

against EOL? I think many of us assume it's because you have no reasonable

response, and therefore, choose to make no response at all.



Additionally, several people have taken Terry's "get the f*** off this list"

out of context, it seems to me. The ADS-L is a list for people who are in

favor of linguistic diversity--both within the English-speaking community, and

within and between other languages. Most of us celebrate diversity, so to

come online and start talking about "national unity" and other such notions

is by nature inflammatory. It would be analogous to joining a list for

baseball lovers and continuously dissing the sport, and then when confronted

with numerous flames from baseball-lovers, claiming to be the victim of an

unfair assault.



There are forums for people interested in language issues in general to

exchange ideas. I wish you'd write to them.



Greg Pulliam

Illinois Institute of Technology, Chicago

humpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minna.acc.iit.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 13:15:17 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: SED Volumes



Dear Subscribers,



I have been in contact with Dr. David Parry of the English Department of

the University College, Swansea, Wales. He reports that he has

"literally hundreds of copies" of the Survey of English Dialects West

Midlands 1 & 2 and East Midlands 2 & 3. Dr. Parry, who was a

fieldworker for the SED, is retiring soon and would like these books to

find good homes, rather than being simply dumped. He is willing to GIVE

away the volumes in return for postage, which ran around 15 pounds when

I got the volumes earlier this year. He can be reached at:



Dr. David Parry, Department of English

University College, Singleton Park

Swansea SA2 8PP, Great Britain



Here is an opportunity to pickup for yourself or your school library

several volumes of the SED at a very good price. Dr. Parry is eager to

have this information passed on to anyone who might be interested.

My apologies to those who may have read this message on another list.

Fritz Juengling

Program Germanic Philology

U of MN



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 15:05:29 CST

From:  salikoko mufwene <mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply



Don:

  For a moment I thought I read you wrong yesterday. I reread the

statement which I questioned but think I read you right. You said:

<<Remember that what's REAL is idiolect, not dialect, the latter being a

construct hypothesized by linguists or school teachers or politicians

or whoever.>>

Now I read you saying:

<<Yes, Sali, clearly constructs such as 'dialect' are real, as are

observable patterns of behavior of all sorts.>>

 Has your position changed? Also, aren't you contradicting yourself in

this second statement? If a dialect is a construct (presumably out of some

reality--I assume speech), can it be real in the same way as the reality

from which it has been projected? As we go back to perception, I perceive

speech/utterances, not a language, though I identify utterances as

instantiations of a category called language L. Are categories realities in

the same way that their members are? (I am not quite happy with this analogy

either, because languages are not clusters of utterances, but I hope you get

my point). I think you are off track in your other considerations, except in

referring me to the notion of phoneme. I do not think a phoneme is as real

as a speech sound is. A phoneme is a construct, but a speech sound is not. I

perceive the latter not the former.

 Now, since Wayne refers me to Saussure, I'd like to point out that

although he helped linguistics in distinguishing between "langue" and

"parole" (among several other good things), he still did not conceptualize

everything right about language, especially its relation to individual

speakers. For instance, he insisted so much on the institutional aspect of

language, an institution to which native speakers are born, that he could

not reconcile this view with the role of native speakers in innovating and

bringing about changes. Claude Hagege does a better job than Saussure on

this matter (in his book THE LANGUAGE BUILDER, 1993). Native speakers both

use inherited principles and modify some of them as they speak, and thus

a language is constantly being rebuilt, which I find very normal/natural

because I know of no school where native speakers are sent to be certified

native speakers... And I'd like to claim that some native speakers are more

skilled than others in using their language, but then I would be opening a

Pandora's box I am very reluctant to get into.

 Anyway, my question yesterday was intended to suggest that idiolect,

dialect, and language are all constructs, perhaps with different degrees of

remoteness from reality, nonetheless very useful constructs.

Sali.

***********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene

University of Chicago

Dept. of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 15:40:30 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Quick, Dumb Question



Sorry to bother everybody with the question, but I need a quick answer.

(And this is ADS-related since it involves the nomination of a chair

for next year's SAADS metting.) Where is SAMLA going to meet in '96?

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 15:05:30 CST

From:  salikoko mufwene <mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



Natalie and Tom:

 I am glad I asked the question about "viable communication," because I

realize now that you both did not assume the same thing, at least based on

the answers I just read. In concession to Tom, I should have asked the

question in terms of "scale of communication," not "level of communication."

Natalie, as you answer the question in terms of

<<communication sufficient to maintain some sort of national identity,>>

should I assume that mutilingual nations would have identity problems?

 But I'll go back to Tom's reply, very briefly, the need for having a common

language for communication at the level of a few individuals does not

translate empirically into the need for one single nationwide language for

communication. There are a host of sociohistorical factors to take into

account in this case. Besides, there are problems of communication (mutual

intelligibility) in monolingual countries. Even here in the United States, I

have witnessed native speakers of English failing to communicate successful

in their own native English! You may as well follow some incidents on this

list too, but the experiences I referred to involve nonlinguists.

Sali.

***********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene

University of Chicago

Dept. of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 16:44:42 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



> Natalie, as you answer the question in terms of

> <<communication sufficient to maintain some sort of national identity,>>

> should I assume that mutilingual nations would have identity problems?



Yes -- that was the point of my sarcasm. Poor Switzerland, for example,

just can't quite make it in the world because it has all those people

speaking different languages.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 15:55:46 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



Gregory J. Pulliam writes:



> Tom,

> Why have you STILL not responded to Terry's points?



I have responded to many of Terry's points. I never attempted to

respond to everything Terry said. Though I am flattered that you

would want me to. Some of those "points" were simply too absurd to

deserve a response. Others didn't elicit a response because I agreed

with them and had nothing to add. In spite of Terry's harsh words

toward me, not everything in those messages was emotional dribble. A

lot of it was valid. I have never intentionally given the message

that this issue is entirely a black and white one. There are good

reasons on both sides. Both sides have poor ones too. I have not

always favored EOL. I still have many reasons for opposing it. I

have not argued that way because the reasons I have for supporting it

weigh heavier in me than my reasons against it. Most of us ADS-L

subcribers would weigh it heavier the other way. That's okay. I do

appreciate the messages, open and private, that have been supportive.

But it's been fun going the rounds with the rest of you too.



> Why are you so eager

> to latch on to her anger . . . ?



His "anger" was hard to resist. Being told to get the F*** off the

network caught my attention--as he intended. I don't recommend this

method, but it did work for him.



> Most of us celebrate diversity,



Good! I certainly do. That's why in spite of my EOL position, I

would feel a loss to our country if we ever lost Chinatown and the

many other non-English communities. Our nation is much richer

because of them. Of course, well written EOL would not hinder

preserving those centers of ethnic variety. It merely gives those

people added incentive to aquire English as a second or third

language. Even if they knew English (as many of them already do),

they would still be who they are. But this leads us back to what I

have already explained.



> to come online and start talking about "national unity" and other

> such notions is by nature inflammatory.



You missed the point completely. To the extent that we truly do

celebrate our diversity, we are united. I do not suggest that anyone

loses his/her native language. I do, however, believe that everyone

can benefit by learning a second language. For those whose native

tongue is English, I cannot recommend any particular language over

any other. Again, the more variety the better. But for those who do

not speak English, who live in most parts of the world, I certainly

recommend that they learn English. It is rapidly becoming the

international language of commerce and technology. In our country,

if they do not understand English, with or without EOL, they are

missing out on too much of what this nation has to offer.



> There are forums for people interested in language issues in

> general to exchange ideas.



Yes, that's why I'm in this circle. Until last month, I have not

contributed very often because my views did not differ enough to

really contribute much. I did not subscribe for political reasons.

If my views radically oppose yours, you are welcome. I'm glad I

could stimulate some thought in you.



If your intention is to tell the network that you support Terry's

messages, so be it. So do I in a large measure. Some of our

exchanges have been too hostile for this forum. But at the heart of

it all, we are not far apart. His professional background in

language far surpasses my own. He has my respect. I am glad that he

has yours as well. Whether we agree with his position or not,

whether we agree with his tactics or not, whether we've been

comfortable with his messages or not, he has done a lot to stir some

thought on this issue. With his background and his zeal, he has a

lot to add to this group. He and I have communicated outside of this

forum; and he really is a decent guy. Thanks anyway, but you really

don't need to excuse, explain, or defend his words. We both enjoy a

good argument now and then. This issue gave us that opprotunity.



Thanks,



Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 16:24:58 -0600

From:  Marianna Di Paolo <m.dipaolo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M.CC.UTAH.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



>Marianna di Paolo writes (in response to Tom Clark),

>

>>>I've lived in and out of Utah. I knew "contempt" before I lived there,

>>>but I've heard "content" used by old husbands who know better than to

>>>rile their wives. But Marianna Dipaolo will be able to set us all right.

>>>Cheers,

>>>tlc

>

>>Well, I wish I could, Tom, but I have never heard the expression with

>>anything other than "contempt". But so far the discussion suggests that

>>"content" only occurs in Utah and maybe only in small towns. Is that

>>right?

>>

>

>Well, Marianna, I can assure you that while my "content" may have been picked

>up in New York (Manhattan or Long Island--the source, no doubt, of my

>"jew-le-ry"), or perhaps in California (L.A. or Berkeley), or even in the

>midwest (Ann Arbor or Madison), it most definitely was not contracted in a

>small town in Utah.

>

>Larry





Sorry, Larry, I didn't remember your contribution when I tried to respond

to Tom Clark. I must say that I enjoyed Tom's contextualization of his

first hearing of "Familiarity breeds conTENT". Have the rest of you only

heard it used facetiously as well or is it used in other types of contexts

as well?









Marianna Di Paolo

m.dipaolo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]m.cc.utah.edu

Linguistics Program

2300 LNCO

University of Utah

Salt Lake City, UT  84112



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 16:22:27 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



Thanks Salikoko,



> The need for having a common

> language for communication at the level of a few individuals does not

> translate empirically into the need for one single nationwide language for

> communication.



True. The nation could go on for quite awhile without non-English

speakers comfortably communicating with the government. We are

nowhere near such a breaking point. On the other hand, there is a

point at which that can become a serious problem. It seems that we

may be headed in that direction--though a long way from getting

there. More significant in my mind is the isolation that these

people are living in by not speaking the language of the nation. As

much as I favor EOL, I favor teaching ESL far more. I would like to

see these issues combined in any EOL legislation. Too many people

living in a country that they do not feel fully a part of is, in my

mind, dangerous for the health of that country.



> Besides, there are problems of communication (mutual

> intelligibility) in monolingual countries. Even here in the United States, I

> have witnessed native speakers of English failing to communicate successful

> in their own native English!



Absolutely! I think I made that point in an earlier message. It is

tough enough to communicate within our own language. It is even

tougher to communicate across languages. Thus, I wish everyone knew

more than one language. In the United States, I would like one of

everyone's languages to be English. To borrow some lines from a

great, musically gifted, philosopher, "You may say I'm a dreamer. But

I'm not the only one. I hope someday you'll join us [via language]

and the world will live as one [or, at least a step closer to it]."



Thanks again for your message,



Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 17:31:04 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of Oxymoron -Reply



Sali:

No, my position has not changed. All of the "real" that we have _conscious_

access to is a product of some sort of construct-building, because thinking

is construct-building. When we produce syllables (e.g., in the string

'nu-cu-lar' or the string 'nu-klee-ar') we are using "physically real"

neurons and muscles without "thinking" about how or where precisely to

place peaks and valleys in the amount of muscular energy applied to the

speech mechanisms. What I was doing was playing around the dichotomy

between "physical reality" and "mental reality." You're absolutely on

target in your comments about degrees or "remoteness" in abstractions.

The article on the psychological reality of the phoneme was written by

Sapir, in French; I haven't looked at it in years, but my recollection

is that he was attempting to deal with what we do _un_consciously as we

differentiate between phonemes. Recent work with infant perception of

speech tries to get at that phenomenon by pairing a "high" vowel (/i/ or

/e/) with a low vowel (/a/ or /o/) [second formant having high versus

low frequency]. When the infant looks at the light when it hears /i/

and looks at the ball when it hears /a/, it is not engaging in the

kind of abstraction that we adults do when we differentiate between /nit/

and /nat/, but both the infant and the adult respond to something

"physically real" in the vowel sound uttered. The adult can assign the

sound to a phoneme class but the infant can't. And go from one idiolect

to another and adults might mis-hear "not" as "naught" because of the

different "hard-wired" phonological systems in the two idiolects. DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 17:44:37 PDT

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



I suspect one of the reasons for taking a position against English-Only laws,

is the fear that some languages (Native-American possibly) will become

unnecessary, and eventually extinct.



This seems to be a good forum to ask the question, What is the downside of a

language becoming extinct? Are there upsides?



Not necessarily dumb, but curious,

-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 17:48:58 PDT

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



>> ... Poor Switzerland, for example,

>> just can't quite make it in the world because it has all those people

>> speaking different languages.



For example, having too many languages, has forced Switzerland into being a

military midget. No way could they become a military power like the US because

everyone talks different.



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 21:37:38 -0400

From:  "Cynthia L. Moore" <CLM777[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of ...



While we are on the subject of various pronciations (e.g., jewelry), I

thought I'd mention some English words with difficult to pronounce final

consonants.  In the following, I commonly hear one or more of the final

consonants dropped:



twelfth, pron'd TWELF ("th" dropped)

sixth, pron'd SIKST ("h" dropped)

months, pron'd MUNTS ("h" dropped)

wreaths, pron'd REEZ ("th" dropped)



Have other people noticed this? Maybe pronchick Rima Mc has.



Cindie Moore, Arlington, VA



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 20:01:35 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: English Only



Ok, I'll stick my 2 cents into this mess.



I was taught that the purpose of speech (or writing) was communication. It

is therefore mostly the responsibility of the speaker/writer to take care

of that communication. Assuming communication to be a good and important

thing, and I do, it is therefore incumbent upon the speaker/writer to

achieve it.



If I were in an other language speaking country, I would do my utmost to

learn that language. I would find it crucial to be able to talk to and

understand people/signs/ and what was going on around me. I would not

think it reasonable for everyone there to necessarily accomodate my

linguistic limitations.



On the other hand, if there were an emergency or legal issue, I would very

much want to find someone who spoke English and would go out of my way to

do so. I would also appreciate it if emergency/danger/warning type signs

were in English as well as other languages. If I wanted to function in

that country, it would be my responsibility to learn their language. It

would be their responsibility to make that learning accessible and

inexpensive (if not free).



I think it very important for people in this country to be able to

communicate with each other. This creates at least some understanding and

the possibility for friendship/goodwill/neighborliness/etc.



This says nothing at all about what I would speak at home, teach my

children, write in my diary.



Like so many other things in this country, the English Only issue seems to

be gone at backwards. ESL classes should be readily accessible, funded,

popular. It should be abundantly clear to non-English speakers that their

employment/educational/financial futures are severely limited by not

speaking the predominant language used here. Yes, there are many more or

less monolingual non-English speaking communities around the country, and

if I were living in one of them - and had to function at all - I would try

to gain at least a rudimentary knowledge of that language. But they should

also learn English.



It's a difficult issue that needs to be approached from both directions -

the teaching and the learning.



I know I'm not offering a solution, but at least I'm adding to the confusion.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 22:04:56 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of ...



On Wed, 13 Sep 1995, Cynthia L. Moore wrote:



> While we are on the subject of various pronciations (e.g., jewelry), I

> thought I'd mention some English words with difficult to pronounce final

> consonants.  In the following, I commonly hear one or more of the final

> consonants dropped:

>

> twelfth, pron'd TWELF ("th" dropped)

I've never heard this pronunciation, but I have heard 'TWELTH' and 'FITH'

(5th). How many people out there say 'clothes' exactly as they say

'close'? (BTW, are there any 'tloze' speakers left anywhere?)

Fritz Juengling

> sixth, pron'd SIKST ("h" dropped)

> months, pron'd MUNTS ("h" dropped)

> wreaths, pron'd REEZ ("th" dropped)

>

> Have other people noticed this? Maybe pronchick Rima Mc has.

>

> Cindie Moore, Arlington, VA

>



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Sep 1995 to 13 Sep 1995

************************************************





There are 26 messages totalling 720 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. FOR English Only (6)

 2. Pronounciation of ...

 3. English Only (2)

 4. Consonant Cluster Reduction (4)

 5. Consonant Cluster Reduction/Busleft (2)

 6. Consonant Cluster Reduction: Corrected

 7. with a bullet (6)

 8. Contempt vs Content

 9. Quick, dumb question: SAMLA (2)

 10. ?Mice/Mouses (fwd)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 22:42:48 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



On Wed, 13 Sep 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



[snip]



> I assume you're talking about the number of different languages spoken

> in the US. Right? Has anybody established a maximum number of different

> languages appropriate for maintaining viable communication? Obviously it



California State Legislature in Sacramento recognized 220 different

languages used in the state, according to the San Jose Mercury News. I

could name 78 before I gave up.

Cheers,

tlc



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 13 Sep 1995 22:49:25 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: Pronounciation of ...



Cindie,



I've heard twelf and munts, but not sikst or reez (of course, in the

general scheme of things, I haven't heard wreaths much either). I have,

however, heard many many fiths for fifths.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 01:49:32 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: English Only



When I spent a year in Germany on exchange, I had hoped to develop

more than a modicum of fluency in the language. But I was around

university people most of the time, and they wanted to practice their English.

Occasionally I had an opportunity to use German with someone who knew no

English. Then I learned some German fairly fast and it was relatively

fast in my brain afterward, whereas schoolbooks put some German into my

brain only temporarily.

But that was Germany, not the good ole U. S. of A. And just look:

They've got Helmut Kohl, but we've got Bill Clinton and Bob Dole and

Newty! Ah for a Helmut Schmidt!      DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 05:49:07 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



> > in the US. Right? Has anybody established a maximum number of different

> > languages appropriate for maintaining viable communication? Obviously it

>

> California State Legislature in Sacramento recognized 220 different



I'm beginning to think that not everybody realized I was being sarcastic

in asking my question about a maximum number of different languages. (But

that's ok -- I found this one an interesting response.)

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 06:56:37 -0500

From:  Dennis Baron <debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



EOL sure does generate some heat, even among informed types like us. Some

points I'd like to add:



a major problem with EOL is that it will not ensure compliance: just how do

you _make_ someone learn/use a language? Anyone who survived foreign

language requirements in school knows that it just doesn't work for most

people. Complicating things further is the fact that historically in the

US there has never been more than a token ESL opportunity compared to the

number of people who need/want ESL courses (for children or adults).



Furthermore, my fear is that EOL will become a barrier to learning English,

make it more threatening, make non-English speakers or limited English

speakers feel more isolated from the mainstream than they already do.



Finally, why not leave well enough alone? The US has achieved without

official language legislation a far higher percentage of majority language

use than any other nation with official language mandates. More than 97% of

the US population reports using English according to the last Census.

Non-English speakers actually WANT to learn English to get ahead. It is

minority languages, not English, that are endangered species in this

country.



The problem for some OEL advocates, of course, is that there is a

relatively high percentage of people who ALSO use a language other than

English or live in a household where someone else does. So what else is

new? That percentage may be up from the inter-war years (when immigration

was curtailed drastically and the Census didn't ask language questions

anyway), but in the long run it's nothing unusual for this country. Does

this mar our cherished image of monolingualality?



My daughter, who is in 7th grade, has to choose a pen pal for a school

project from a list of approved countries. She told me the other day, of

course the pen pal has to speak English before they let them join the

program. Then she added, how come they always have to use our language and

we never have to use theirs?



The same supporters of EOL are telling immigrants to lose their native

tongue. Then they turn around and complain that monolingual Americans

can't compete in a multilingual world economy.



Dennis

--



Dennis Baron                    debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu

Department of English           office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois              fax: 217-333-4321

608 S. Wright Street             home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, IL 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 08:37:55 EDT

From:  Terry Lynn Irons <t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Consonant Cluster Reduction



>

> While we are on the subject of various pronciations (e.g., jewelry), I

> thought I'd mention some English words with difficult to pronounce final

> consonants.  In the following, I commonly hear one or more of the final

> consonants dropped:

>

> twelfth, pron'd TWELF ("th" dropped)

> sixth, pron'd SIKST ("h" dropped)

> months, pron'd MUNTS ("h" dropped)

> wreaths, pron'd REEZ ("th" dropped)

>

> Have other people noticed this? Maybe pronchick Rima Mc has.

>



This kind of final consonant cluster reduction is quite common in much of

spoken American English. Various scholars have pointed to it as a feature

of African American English Vernacular. It is a function of the basic

tendency in language to move toward ease of articulation.





Terry Irons



--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 09:04:32 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Consonant Cluster Reduction



My favorite plural of that type is _sixths_, which I believe is the only in-

stance of a tautosyllabic 4 obstruent cluster. I have a feeling I pronounce it

(at least in fast speech) with a very long [s], i.e. [sIks::].



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 09:10:59 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Consonant Cluster Reduction/Busleft



>>

>> While we are on the subject of various pronciations (e.g., jewelry), I

>> thought I'd mention some English words with difficult to pronounce final

>> consonants.  In the following, I commonly hear one or more of the final

>> consonants dropped:

>>

>> twelfth, pron'd TWELF ("th" dropped)

>> sixth, pron'd SIKST ("h" dropped)

>> months, pron'd MUNTS ("h" dropped)

>> wreaths, pron'd REEZ ("th" dropped)

>>

>> Have other people noticed this? Maybe pronchick Rima Mc has.

>>

>

>This kind of final consonant cluster reduction is quite common in much of

>spoken American English. Various scholars have pointed to it as a feature

>of African American English Vernacular. It is a function of the basic

>tendency in language to move toward ease of articulation.

>

>

>Terry Irons



Yes, my favorite white Central Georgian locution is "fifty cents," which

comes out [fIti + sInt]. (Read nasalization for [n]. I don't think I can

send a tilde)



Speaking of Central Georgian: one of the history professors from Ohio was

waylaid when his eight-year-old son exclaimed the other day, "I was

busleft!" Did an earlier discussion establish that this guiltless

expression for missing the bus was also used in North Georgia?





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 09:26:26 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Consonant Cluster Reduction



>My favorite plural of that type is _sixths_, which I believe is the only in-

>stance of a tautosyllabic 4 obstruent cluster. I have a feeling I pronounce it

>(at least in fast speech) with a very long [s], i.e. [sIks::].

>

>Larry



The Guiness Book of World Records used to have the following as the record

tongue twister:



The sixth sick sheiks sixth sheep's sick.



I like to give it on transcription tests, although some students just give

up in the attempt.









Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 09:43:23 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Consonant Cluster Reduction: Corrected



>>My favorite plural of that type is _sixths_, which I believe is the only in-

>>stance of a tautosyllabic 4 obstruent cluster. I have a feeling I pronounce

>>it

>>(at least in fast speech) with a very long [s], i.e. [sIks::].

>>

>>Larry

>

>The Guiness Book of World Records used to have the following as the record

>tongue twister:

>

>The sixth sick sheik's sixth sheep's sick.

>

>I like to give it on transcription tests, although some students just give

>up in the attempt.

>

>

>

>

>Wayne Glowka

>Professor of English

>Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

>Georgia College

>Milledgeville, GA 31061

>912-453-4222

>wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 09:47:54 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: with a bullet



OK, now that we've settled the English Only dispute and the issues of meta-

theses and related non-standard pronunciations and consonant cluster

simplification, I wonder if it's time to introduce a new topic. Can anyone

help me pin down the above? I did check a few recent slang dictionaries (and

regular ones) to no avail, although one contained a related verb in a citation

from the Rolling Stone about a song that was "bulleting its way to the top of

the charts". I think the first uses I recall involved "No. n with a bullet",

and I understood them to mean something like "No n. [on the charts, said of a

popular song] but moving up rapidly". This would then constitute an instance

of D.J. lingo, but where did it start? Does this 'bullet' have anything to do

with the kind that shoots, or with the typographic symbol (Opt-8 on my Mac

keyboard)? Is the use expanding to different contexts? (There was a subhead

in Tuesday's N. Y. Times reading "Giants and Jets: 0-4 with a bullet", which

I interpreted as meaning that the teams' combined 0-4 record was likely to be-

come even worse.)  Can anyone help? (I did notice it wasn't in DARE, but

then it may not count as a specialized regional use.)



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 10:32:50 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: with a bullet



i believe the origins of the bullet are of the typographical sort.

the bullet is from _billboard_ magazine, whose top forty list is, if

not the original (i don't know), at least the one that is taken to be

the most authoritive (sp?). the typographical bullet is placed in

the margin (i think--it' been a while since i've seen this) next to

items on the list that are moving particularly quickly, often those

that enter the charts at a relatively high point (i.e., a low number).



i think the success of the phrase, however (as spread through

deejays), is based on its metaphorical power. lots of people don't

know what a typographical bullet is (i certainly didn't when i first

heard the phrase as a kid), so the interpretation might be (as

it was for me) that the item is shooting toward the top of the list

as on a bullet. of course, this could've been on the minds of the

billboard people when they originated the bullet, or on those of

deejays, if they were the ones who originated the phrase.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 09:43:08 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Consonant Cluster Reduction/Busleft



> Speaking of Central Georgian: one of the history professors from Ohio was

> waylaid when his eight-year-old son exclaimed the other day, "I was

> busleft!" Did an earlier discussion establish that this guiltless

> expression for missing the bus was also used in North Georgia?



I don't know, but I was surprised recently to hear one of my colleagues

objecting to the use of "weedeat" as a verb. Sounds like a perfectly

normal verb to me: weedeat, weedate, weedeaten, weedeating.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 08:14:00 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood <dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: with a bullet



Doesn't "# with a bullet" come from the Billboard charts?



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 11:35:43 -0400

From:  ALICE FABER <faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Contempt vs Content



Previous Postings:



Tom Clark:

I've lived in and out of Utah. I knew "contempt" before I lived there,

but I've heard "content" used by old husbands who know better than to

rile their wives. But Marianna Dipaolo will be able to set us all right.



Marianna Di Paolo:

Well, I wish I could, Tom, but I have never heard the expression with

anything other than "contempt". But so far the discussion suggests that

"content" only occurs in Utah and maybe only in small towns. Is that

right?



Larry Horn:

Well, Marianna, I can assure you that while my "content" may have been picked

up in New York (Manhattan or Long Island--the source, no doubt, of my

"jew-le-ry"), or perhaps in California (L.A. or Berkeley), or even in the

midwest (Ann Arbor or Madison), it most definitely was not contracted in a

small town in Utah.



Marianna Di Paolo:

Sorry, Larry, I didn't remember your contribution when I tried to respond

to Tom Clark. I must say that I enjoyed Tom's contextualization of his

first hearing of "Familiarity breeds conTENT". Have the rest of you only

heard it used facetiously as well or is it used in other types of contexts

as well?



******************************************************************************



Has anyone considered the possibility that this is *purely* phonological?

On ESPN's early SportsCenter (Weds. 13 Sept), I heard (in the summary of the

day's OJ developments) that Marcia Clark had been cited for "conTENT of

court".





Alice Faber



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 11:07:17 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: with a bullet



I`m fairly sure it's "bullet" in the typographic rather than the

firearms sense, but Larry's query is the first time I've heard

"bulleting" used in this sense of a verb.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 11:36:00 CDT

From:  Randy Roberts <robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: with a bullet



   I have checked in the cite files of Peter Tamony and Clarence Barnhart

   held here in Missouri. Each has a number of examples of bullet used

   in this sense from the mid-1970s to early 1980s. Includes examples of

   bulleting to the top and bulleted at the top, etc. The earliest

   example, however, is from Tom Wolfe's THE KANDY-KOLORED TANGERINE

   FLAKE STREAMLINE BABY of 1965. Tamony lifted a quote from page 62:

   "His latest record, 'You've Lost that Lovin' Feelin',' by the

   Righteous Brothers, rose from the 70's to No. 37 with a 'bullet'

   beside it ----- meaning 'going up fast'." Sorry, but I don't see

   anything which addresses the origin of the phrase.







   Randy Roberts

   University of Missouri-Columbia

   robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 12:14:05 -0700

From:  Sylvia Swift <madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: with a bullet



casey kasem (sorry if that's not the right spelling, i haven't seen the

tony robbins infommercial in a while)'s syndicated radio show, "american

top forty" probably did a great deal to popularize this phrase. the

statistics for that show were drawn from _billboard_ magazine, especially

their lists of best-selling/most played-on-the-air records broken down by

market. the last time i looked at an issue of _billboard_, they still

maintained such lists. a bullet (typographical symbol, that is)

appearing next to a number meant something like "fast-moving"; there was

an explanatory note at the bottom of the chart (cf. _the new york times

book review_ chart, where an asterisk denotes little difference between

an entry and its neighbor).



on the etymology of bullet (looks like a bullet-hole?) in its

typographical sense, you might try _pocket pal: a graphic arts

production handbook_, published (and updated every year or so) by

international paper company or _the chicago manual of style_.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 15:30:52 -0400

From:  Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Quick, dumb question: SAMLA



Natalie's question about where SAMLA will meet in the future is the kind that

the Newsletter of the American Dialect Society always tries to have an answer

for. The answer is 1996 Nov. 8-10 Savannah; 1997 (dates not determined)

Atlanta. In the most recent (May) issue you'll find this information on page

9.



The newsletter is not even the most important benefit of membership in ADS,

which costs $30 a year, $15 for students. If you're not a member but would

like to know more, send me your s-mail address for a copy of the newsletter

and a membership form.



- Allan Metcalf, ADS executive secretary <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 13:50:40 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: English Only



Rima <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET> writes:



> I was taught that the purpose of speech (or writing) was communication. It

> is therefore mostly the responsibility of the speaker/writer to take care

> of that communication.



Isn't the hearer/reader as responsible as the speaker/writer?



> I know I'm not offering a solution, but at least I'm adding to the

confusion.



Write On!



Tom



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 16:20:17 -0500

From:  Donald Larmouth <LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



I thought it might be useful to review exactly what is involved in the proposed

"English only" legislation--especially since the author of H.R. 739 is Toby

Roth, the congressman from my district here in Wisconsin. Mr. Roth and I have

traded guest editorials on the subject in the local paper, and I presented a

mock debate to the Wisconsin TESOL group last spring. (Mr. Roth couldn't come,

so I quoted his remarks from the Congressional Record to represent his side of

the debate.)



Here are the particulars of the proposed Declaration of Official Language Act,

word for word (minus the various section numbers and headings):



English is the official language of the government of the United States.

English is the preferred language of communication among citizens of the United

States. The Government of the United States shall promote and support the use

of English for communications among United States citizens. Communications by

officers and employees of the Government of the United States shall be in

English. All United States citizens should be encouraged to read, write, and

speak English to the extent of their physical and mental abilities. It has been

the long-standing national belief that full citizenship in the United States

requires fluency in English. English is the language of opportunity for all

immigrants to take their rightful place in American society.



The Immigration and Naturalization Service shall enforce the established

English language proficiency standard for all applicants for United States

citizenship and conduct all naturalization ceremonies entirely in English. This

chapter does not apply to the use of a language other than English for

religious purposes, training in foreign languages for international

communication, or use of non-English terms of art in government documents. This

chapter preempts any State or Federal law which is inconsistent with this

chapter. This Act is not intended to affect programs in schools designed to

encourage students to learn foreign languages. Whoever is injured by a

violation of this chapter may, in a civil action, obtain appropriate relief. In

any action under this chapter, the court may allow a prevailing party, other

than the United States, a reasonable attorney's fee as part of costs.



The table of chapters for Title 4, United States Code, is amended by adding at

the end the following new item: Repeals: (1) Bilingual education: Title VII of

the Elementary and Secondary Education Act of 1965 (other than Sections 7201

through 7309) is repealed. (2) Bilingual ballot: Section 203 of the Voting

Rights Act of 1965 (42 U.S.C. 1973aa-1a) is repealed.



[end of quotation]



Thus, H.R. 739 would not only identify English as the official language of the

government of the United States; it would repeal the present requirements for

bilingual education and for ballots in languages other than English and would

exclude the use of languages other than English in providing government

services (Mr. Roth calls them "non-English languages.")



For me, then, the key questions are these: 1) what is the effect of identifying

English as the official language of the United States (does it, for example,

diminish other languages--and will their speakers also feel diminished); 2)

what is the effect of repealing the a/m sections of Title VII (Mr. Roth claims

that bilingual education is ineffective); 3) what is the effect of prohibiting

government workers from providing services in any language other than English

(does this include medical services, for example); and 4) what is the effect of

abolishing the use of ballots in languages other than English (are anyone's

voting rights compromised)?



I know that other bills are also before the Congress, but I am less familiar

with their details. However, I hope that the details of H.R. 739 will be

helpful to our discussion.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 16:31:40 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Quick, dumb question: SAMLA



> Natalie's question about where SAMLA will meet in the future is the kind that

> the Newsletter of the American Dialect Society always tries to have an answer

> for. The answer is 1996 Nov. 8-10 Savannah; 1997 (dates not determined)

> Atlanta. In the most recent (May) issue you'll find this information on page

> 9.



He's right. And that issue of NADS was sitting about three feet away

from me when I posted the question yesterday. <sigh>. But thanks for

the answer, Allan.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 17:22:27 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



Thank you Donald Larmouth <LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU> for the most

useful English Only info. yet!



This legislation goes further than saying that government business

CAN be conducted in English Only. It says it HAS TO. While the

former removes restrictions, the latter adds it. One of the many

points that won me over to English Only was its lessoning of Big

Brother control.



> Communications by

> officers and employees of the Government of the United States shall be in

> English.



This line troubles me. It is one thing to say that the government

does not have to provide materials in every one of the hundreds of

languages in this country. (I hope by now you all know that I find

that requirement absurd, wasteful, and counter-productive.) But it

is quite another thing to suppose that the CIA, FBI, IRS, TFA, etc.

would NOT BE ALLOWED to speak other languages. We should be removing

restrictions, not adding them. Taken to an extreem--which would be

possible with the poor wording of this bill--a bi-lingual applicant

could not be favored over an English only speaker to do field work in

non-English communities! The way this bill is worded, the government

agancy could be sued for hiring the more qualified candidate.



I hope my remarks on this bill, which I would have to vote against,

do not turn any of you off to better English Only legislation. So

often in legislation, the drafters go too far. Most of what is in

this bill is very reasonable. I hope it is improved be worthwhile.



> I know that other bills are also before the Congress, but I am less

> familiar with their details.



Let's hope they are better than this one.



Thanks again,

Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 20:28:27 -0400

From:  Robert Howren <howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EMAIL.UNC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Consonant Cluster Reduction



On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Terry Lynn Irons wrote:



> Subject: Consonant Cluster Reduction

>

> > While we are on the subject of various pronciations (e.g., jewelry), I

> > thought I'd mention some English words with difficult to pronounce final

> > consonants.  In the following, I commonly hear one or more of the final

> > consonants dropped:

> >

> > twelfth, pron'd TWELF ("th" dropped)

> > sixth, pron'd SIKST ("h" dropped)

> > months, pron'd MUNTS ("h" dropped)

> > wreaths, pron'd REEZ ("th" dropped)

> >

>

    It should be pointed out that while the first and fourth of these

words do indeed illustrate "dropped" consonants, the second and third

don't. "h" is dropped in these two only in an orthographic sense. The

dental fricative in "sixth" pronounced as SIKST and in "months" pronounced

as MUNTS is >replaced< by a different consonant, not deleted.



--rh



    |>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>|

    |        Robert Howren howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]email.unc.edu    |

    |            Hillsborough, NC          |

    |<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<|



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 21:42:02 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: ?Mice/Mouses (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 12:05:39 -0400 (EDT)

From: David Stanley <dstanley[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]stewart.waynesburg.edu>

To: stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU

Subject: ?Mice/Mouses



I've had two patrons stump me recently with this question: What is the

correct plural term for the mouse that is used with a computer? The

people I've polled seem to be equally divided between mice and mouses.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks,

David Stanley



\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/



David H. Stanley              Phone (412) 852-3278

Library Systems Administrator       Fax  (412) 627-4188

Waynesburg College Library         email dstanley[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]waynesburg.edu

Waynesburg, PA 15370



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 22:15:18 -0500

From:  Dennis Baron <debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



For Don Larmouth (and others): do you think your Rep. who proposed the OE

legislation would be interested in speaking to our language and legislation

conference in March? We are trying to find intelligent speakers to

represent the official English position and are coming up pretty empty --

we don't really want a party-line US English representative, but would like

someone who could communicate effectively to the academics and lawyers

attending the conference. Anybody on this list is welcome to submit an

abstract -- if anyone missed my earlier post on the conference and call for

papers, let me know and I'll repeat it.



Dennis

--



Dennis Baron                    debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu

Department of English           office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois              fax: 217-333-4321

608 S. Wright Street             home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, IL 61801



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Sep 1995 to 14 Sep 1995

************************************************





There are 22 messages totalling 806 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. English Only

 2. Neologism needed?

 3. ADS-L Digest - 13 Sep 1995 to 14 Sep 1995

 4. ?Mice/Mouses

 5. ?Mice/Mouses (fwd) (3)

 6. EOL legislation

 7. FOR English Only (4)

 8. Consonant Cluster Reduction

 9. Mouses (3)

 10. English-only

 11. contempt vs. content (2)

 12. *** No Subject *** (2)

 13. bullets



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 14 Sep 1995 23:55:41 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: English Only



Tom,



I think the responsibility is on the one most motivated. In most cases, my

guess is that the speaker/writer is generally the initiator and the more

motivated for communicative understanding. Obviously, if the hearer/reader

is the more motivated, it would be up to that person to work on the

communication.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Sep 1995 00:02:41 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Neologism needed?



The following was forwarded to me by a friend and I thought this was the

appropriate venue to which to pass it along.

Rima



>Dorothy Schwartzberg was here on Sunday and gave me a massage.

>In the midst of my ullulations we decided to write an article on

>"authentic massage pleasure sounds". Here is the list so far...

>

>Yeep! -------- Sound made when going over a hot spot.

>

>Airt' -------- Exclamation associated with pressure on a lymph node,

>         specifically in the armpit.

>

>EeeeSha! ----- Two syllable plosive associated with first bunching a

>         long muscle and then releasing it as the massage stroke

>         continues.

>

>Nmrnym ------- Murmur generated by spreading the pectorals

>

>

>Thought you would like it, or have something to add. I've asked a

>linguist friend for a techno term describing such nonlanguage, meaning

>carrying utterances, but he is stumped. Too bad. It would have been so

>nice to be highbrow.

>

>    Daniel



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Sep 1995 06:47:29 -0500

From:  wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 13 Sep 1995 to 14 Sep 1995



I get the ADS msgs in digest form, but I've stopped reading them because

of all the diatribes about "English only." If things don't calm down

soon, I'll probably quit the list. Yes, I know, I can go to NODIGEST and

then deal with screenfuls beclouding the stuff I want from other sources

as well as from ADS. I'd especially hate to miss Don Lance's thoughtful

comments and some others too.



Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Sep 1995 06:56:23 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen <jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: ?Mice/Mouses



I teach technical writing systems and translation system with many folks

who have always used DOS applications and are now starting to use the

windows-based environment with a mouse. If you notice in the tutorials

and manuals for many applications on the market today, only the singular

"mouse" is used because you will only have 1 mouse connected to your

computer/workstation. So there is no standard that I know of set up in

technical documentation.



As for the users, I have heard more the natives of the central Illinois

area here at work use "mouses". This is difficult to judge as they are

from the socio-cultural spectrum. I even know one person who has been a

teacher for a number of years and is familar with computers a bit that

uses "mouses"



I always have used "mice" because I was always told that it was the

irregular plural of "mouse" and taught it that way overseas for a number

of years. However, I do see myself divert to the plural "mouses"

if I am doing one-on-one mentoring with a person who uses that form,

though I continue to use "mice" in the classroom. Call me schizophrenic

about rodents or computer accessories, but I do find that it lets my

customer feel more comfortable. Now, what will happen when I use "mice"

in class, and I mentor that person later and use "mouses". Will need to

find out.



Just yesterday evening my wife used the same kind of construction in

French as we were talking about a foreigners who come to the States and

kill themselves by working several part-time jobs the same day. My wife

said "Elle a trois travails par jour". I looked at her and said that

this seemed funny because in theory the plural is "travaux" but the

semantic content of "travaux" means global construction work or even a

collection of research studies that one does. The French language,

standard French that is, allows "aller au travail" (go to work) or "j'ai

du travail a faire" (I've got work to do), but it sounds really weird to

try and put that in the regular plural form "travaux" when talking about

several jobs that one does during the day. So my wife used the word

"travails". I thought about it even more with respect to a better plural

to use with a different word. What about "emploi"? Even "emplois" to

mean "jobs" as in several part-time jobs sounds a bit funny. Putting the

slang word "boulot" in the plural doesn't sound much better. Maybe it is

just a semantic issue that cannot be resolved so quickly. The French

always have an "employeur principal" (main employer) if they choose to

have some kind of secondary teaching job where they work for "heures

supplementaires" where the word "job" or "employer" is not used and

happens to overlap with the word for overtime work "heures

supplementaires". This may be something to investigate.



So, I don't think that a Mice/Mouse standard is set. It might reflect

regional uses, social levels, or something else. I've just learned to

adapt to my environment and use both.



JEFF



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 21:42:02 -0500

From: Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: ?Mice/Mouses (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 12:05:39 -0400 (EDT)

From: David Stanley <dstanley[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]stewart.waynesburg.edu>

To: stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU

Subject: ?Mice/Mouses



I've had two patrons stump me recently with this question: What is the

correct plural term for the mouse that is used with a computer? The

people I've polled seem to be equally divided between mice and mouses.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.



Thanks,

David Stanley



\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/



David H. Stanley              Phone (412) 852-3278

Library Systems Administrator       Fax  (412) 627-4188

Waynesburg College Library         email dstanley[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]waynesburg.edu

Waynesburg, PA 15370



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Sep 1995 07:48:29 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?Mice/Mouses (fwd)



> I've had two patrons stump me recently with this question: What is the

> correct plural term for the mouse that is used with a computer? The

> people I've polled seem to be equally divided between mice and mouses.

> Any input would be greatly appreciated.

>

> Thanks,

> David Stanley



Mice have my vote.

Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Sep 1995 08:17:52 -0600

From:  Bruce Gelder <bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM>

Subject: EOL legislation



I apologize for not letting this thread die (quite yet).



On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Donald Larmouth wrote:



>I thought it might be useful to review exactly what is involved in the proposed

>"English only" legislation--especially since the author of H.R. 739 is Toby

>Roth, the congressman from my district here in Wisconsin.



Actually, there are at least six bills before the House right now having

to do directly with such legislation (including H.J. Res. 87, a

constitutional amendment sponsored by Steve Stockman of Texas that requires

everyone over the age of five to be able to communicate in English in order

to obtain citizenship). One of the six bills (H. Con. Res. 83) opposes the

establishment of an official language (while at the same time recognizing

that English is the dominant language); the other five favor it.



There are also bills dealing indirectly with the concept, including (for

example) one that provides tax deductions to employers who pay to have

English taught to their employees.



The four remaining bills attempting to establish English as the official

language (H.R. 123, H.R. 345, H.R. 739, and H.R. 1005) all state that they

are amending title 4 of the U.S. Code (I don't know what title 4 says), and

they also all state that English is to be considered the official language

of government. H.R 739, the one sponsored by Congressman Roth, is typical

of them; I'm including the complete text below for anyone who's interested.

I'm also including the texts of the bill opposing EOL and of the proposed

constitutional amendment.



-----------------------------------------------

H.R. 739



104th Congress H. R. 739 As Introduced in the House



Note: This document is the unofficial version of a Bill or Resolution.

   The printed Bill and Resolution produced by the Government Printing

   Office is the only official version.



VERSION  As Introduced in the House

CONGRESS 104th CONGRESS

      1st Session

BILL                  H. R. 739

TITLE   To amend title 4, United States Code, to declare English as the

       official language of the Government of the United States.

                 --------------------

              IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                  JANUARY 30, 1995

     Mr. Roth (for himself, Mr. Packard, Mr. Doolittle, Mr. Bartlett of

       Maryland, Mr. Parker, Mr. Burton of Indiana, Mr. Coble, Mr.

       Archer, Mr. Callahan, Mr. Bunning of Kentucky, Mr. Goodlatte,

       Mr. Stump, Mr. Inglis of South Carolina, Mr. Rogers, Mr.

       Sensenbrenner, Mr. Lipinski, Mr. Hancock, Mr. Royce, Mr.

       Hutchinson, Mr. Ney, Mr. Forbes, Mr. Solomon, Mr. Kingston, Mr.

       Rohrabacher, Mr. Oxley, and Mr. King) introduced the following

       bill; which was referred to the Committee on Economic and

       Educational Opportunities

                 --------------------

TEXT                   A BILL

     To amend title 4, United States Code, to declare English as the

       official language of the Government of the United States.

      Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the

     United States of America in Congress assembled,

     SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

      This Act may be cited as the `Declaration of Official Language

     Act of 1995`.

     SEC. 2. ENGLISH AS OFFICIAL LANGUAGE.

      (a) In General . - Title 4, United States Code, is amended by

     adding at the end the following new chapter:

            `CHAPTER 6 - LANGUAGE OF THE GOVERNMENT

     `Sec.

     `161. Declaration of official language.

     `162. Preferred language of communication

     `163. Preserving and enhancing the role of the official language

     `164. Duties of citizenship.

     `165. Reform of naturalization requirement.

     `166. Exceptions.

     `167. Preemption.

     `168. Construction.

     `169. Enforcement.

     `Sec. 161. Declaration of official language

      `English is the official language of the Government of the United

     States.

     `Sec. 162. Preferred language of communication

      `English is the preferred language of communication among

     citizens of the United States.

     `Sec. 163. Preserving and enhancing the role of the official

           language

      `The Government of the United States shall promote and support

     the use of English for communications among United States

     citizens. Communications by officers and employees of the

     Government of the United States with United States citizens shall

     be in English.

     `Sec. 164. Duties of citizenship

      `All United States citizens should be encouraged to read, write,

     and speak English to the extent of their physical and mental

     abilities.

     `Sec. 165. Reform of naturalization requirements

      `(a) It has been the long-standing national belief that full

     citizenship in the United States requires fluency in English.

     English is the language of opportunity for all immigrants to take

     their rightful place in American society.

      `(b) The Immigration and Naturalization Service shall -

        `(1) enforce the established English language proficiency

       standard for all applicants for United States citizenship, and

        `(2) conduct all naturalization ceremonies entirely in

       English.

     `Sec. 166. Exceptions

      `This chapter does not apply to the use of a language other than

     English for -

        `(1) religious purposes,

        `(2) training in foreign languages for international

       communication, or

        `(3) use of non-English terms of art in government documents.

     `Sec. 167. Preemption

      `This chapter preempts any State or Federal law which is

     inconsistent with this chapter.

     `Sec. 168. Construction

      `This Act is not intended to affect programs in schools designed

     to encourage students to learn foreign languages.

     `Sec. 169. Enforcement

      `(a) Cause of Action . - Whoever is injured by a violation of

     this chapter may, in a civil action, obtain appropriate relief.

      `(b) Attorney`s Fees . - In any action under this chapter, the

     court may allow a prevailing party, other than the United States, a

     reasonable attorney`s fee as part of costs.`.

      (b) Clerical Amendment . - The table of chapters for title 4,

     United States Code, is amended by adding at the end the following

     new item:

     `6. Language of the Government                 161`.

      (c) Repeals . -

        (1) Bilingual education . - Title VII of the Elementary and

     Secondary Education Act of 1965 (other than sections 7201 through

     7309) is repealed.

        (2) Bilingual ballot . - Section 203 of the Voting Rights

     Act of 1965 (42 U.S.C. 1973aa-1a) is repealed.

..

-----------------------------------------------

H. Con. Res. 83 (opposes EOL)



104th Congress H. CON. RES. 83 As Introduced in the House



Note: This document is the unofficial version of a Bill or Resolution.

   The printed Bill and Resolution produced by the Government Printing

   Office is the only official version.



VERSION  As Introduced in the House

CONGRESS 104th CONGRESS

      1st Session

BILL                H. CON. RES. 83

TITLE   Entitled, the `English Plus Resolution`.

                 --------------------

              IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                   JULY 13, 1995

     Mr. Serrano (for himself, Mr. Pastor, Ms. Ros-Lehtinen, Ms. Vela

       1zquez, Mr. Underwood, Mr. Romero-Barcelo 1, Mr. Gutierrez, Mr.

       Richardson, Mr. Torres, Mr. Becerra, Ms. Roybal-Allard, Mr.

       Gonzalez, Mr. Ortiz, Mr. Tejeda, Mr. Menendez, Mr. Towns, Mr.

       Owens, Mr. Farr, Mr. McDermott, Mr. Moran, Mrs. Meek of

       Florida, Ms. Jackson-Lee, Mr. Fattah, Mr. Scott, Mr. Dellums,

       Ms. Pelosi, Mr. Miller of California, Mr. Lewis of Georgia, Mr.

       Nadler, Mr. Rangel, Mr. Mineta, Mrs. Mink of Hawaii, and Mr.

       Abercrombie) submitted the following concurrent resolution;

       which was referred to the Committee on Economic and Educational

       Opportunities

                 --------------------

TEXT               CONCURRENT RESOLUTION

     Entitled, the `English Plus Resolution`.

     Whereas English is the primary language of the United States, and

       all members of the society recognize the importance of English

       to national life and individual accomplishment;

     Whereas many residents of the United States speak native languages

       other than English, including many languages indigenous to this

       country, and these linguistic resources should be conserved and

       developed;

     Whereas this Nation was founded on a commitment to democratic

       principles, and not on racial, ethnic, or religious

       homogeneity, and has drawn strength from a diversity of

       languages and cultures and from a respect for individual

       liberties;

     Whereas multilingualism, or the ability to speak languages in

       addition to English, is a tremendous resource to the United

       States because such ability enhances American competitiveness

       in global markets by permitting improved communication and

       cross-cultural understanding between producers and suppliers,

       vendors and clients, and retailers and consumers;

     Whereas multilingualism improves United States diplomatic efforts

       by fostering enhanced communication and greater understanding

       between nations;

     Whereas multilingualism has historically been an essential element

       of national security, including the use of Native American

       languages in the development of coded communications during

       World War II, the Korean War, and the Vietnam War;

     Whereas multilingualism promotes greater cross-cultural

       understanding between different racial and ethnic groups in the

       United States;

     Whereas there is no threat to the status of English in the United

       States, a language that is spoken by 94 percent of United

       States residents, according to the 1990 United States Census,

       and there is no need to designate any official United States

       language or to adopt similar restrictionist legislation;

     Whereas `English-only` measures, or proposals to designate English

       as the sole official language of the United States, would

       violate traditions of cultural pluralism, divide communities

       along ethnic lines, jeopardize the provision of law

       enforcement, public health, education, and other vital services

       to those whose English is limited, impair government

       efficiency, and undercut the national interest by hindering the

       development of language skills needed to enhance international

       competitiveness and conduct diplomacy; and

     Whereas such `English-only` measures would represent an unwarranted

       Federal regulation of self-expression, abrogate constitutional

       rights to freedom of expression and equal protection of the

       laws, violate international human rights treaties to which the

       United States is a signatory, and contradict the spirit of the

       1923 Supreme Court case Meyer v. Nebraska, wherein the Court

       declared that `The protection of the Constitution extends to

       all; to those who speak other languages as well as to those

       born with English on the tongue`: Now, therefore, be it

      Resolved by the House of Representatives (the Senate concurring),

     That the United States Government should pursue policies that -

        (1) encourage all residents of this country to become fully

       proficient in English by expanding educational opportunities;

        (2) conserve and develop the Nation`s linguistic resources by

       encouraging all residents of this country to learn or maintain

       skills in a language other then English;

        (3) assist Native Americans, Native Alaskans, Native

       Hawaiians, and other peoples indigenous to the United States,

       in their efforts to prevent the extinction of their languages

       and cultures;

        (4) continue to provide services in languages other than

       English as needed to facilitate access to essential functions

       of government, promote public health and safety, ensure due

       process, promote equal educational opportunity, and protect

       fundamental rights; and

        (5) recognize the importance of multilingualism to vital

       American interests and individual rights, and oppose

       `English-only` measures and similar language restrictionist

       measures.

..

-----------------------------------------------

H.J. Res. 87 (proposed constitutional amendment)



104th Congress H. J. RES. 87 As Introduced in the House



Note: This document is the unofficial version of a Bill or Resolution.

   The printed Bill and Resolution produced by the Government Printing

   Office is the only official version.



VERSION  As Introduced in the House

CONGRESS 104th CONGRESS

      1st Session

BILL                 H. J. RES. 87

TITLE   Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States

       regarding citizenship in the United States.

                 --------------------

              IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

                   MAY 3, 1995

     Mr. Stockman (for himself, Mr. Jones, Mr. Funderburk, Mrs.

       Chenoweth, Mr. Burton of Indiana, and Mr. Salmon) introduced

       the following joint resolution; which was referred to the

       Committee on the Judiciary

                 --------------------

TEXT                JOINT RESOLUTION

     Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States

       regarding citizenship in the United States.

      Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United

     States of America in Congress assembled (two-thirds of each House

     concurring therein), That the following article is proposed as an

     amendment to the Constitution of the United States, which shall be

     valid to all intents and purposes as part of the Constitution when

     ratified by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several States

     within seven years after the date of its submission for

     ratification:

                    `ARTICLE -

      `Section 1. Citizens of the United States shall only be persons

     born to a parent who is a citizen of the United States, persons

     born within the United States and to a parent who was lawfully

     present in and subject to the jurisdiction of the United States at

     the time of that parent`s entry into the United States, and all

     persons naturalized according to the laws of the United States.

      `Section 2. Nothing in this Constitution shall require either

     the Congress or the States to provide payments or services to any

     person who is not a citizen of the United States.

      `Section 3. No person shall become a naturalized citizen of the

     United States who is not conversant in the English language, except

     for persons under the age of five, and who has not sworn allegiance

     to the United States over and above allegiance to any other polity.

      `Section 4. Representatives shall be apportioned among the

     several States according to their respective numbers, counting only

     the number of citizens of each State.`.

..



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Sep 1995 09:25:01 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



My immediate thought is that some people's voting rights are compromised:

the problem isn't naturalization, but people who are born citizens and

have another native language, including many Puerto Ricans and First

Nations people.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Sep 1995 11:04:55 EDT

From:  David Bergdahl <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Consonant Cluster Reduction



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783          <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX>

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



The "sixths" discussion reminds me of the following grade school riddle:



There were [twEntisIk] sheep and one died. How many were left? Ans: 25 :-)



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens

"Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Sep 1995 11:21:01 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: ?Mice/Mouses (fwd)



> > I've had two patrons stump me recently with this question: What is the

> > correct plural term for the mouse that is used with a computer? The

> > people I've polled seem to be equally divided between mice and mouses.

> > Any input would be greatly appreciated.

> >

> > Thanks,

> > David Stanley





i think the natural plural is "mouses"--when people say "mice" it is

usually remarked on or giggled at. just like people have walkmans

instead of walkmen (but the trademark lawyers say you have sony

walkman personal stereos).



lynne m.



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Sep 1995 09:48:45 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



> My immediate thought is that some people's voting rights are compromised:

> the problem isn't naturalization, but people who are born citizens and

> have another native language, including many Puerto Ricans . . . .

>

> Vicki Rosenzweig



I was under the impression that Puerto Ricans neither have the right

to vote nor have the burdon of federal taxes (since they can have

no taxation w/o representation).







Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Sep 1995 11:11:31 CST

From:  salikoko mufwene <mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?Mice/Mouses (fwd)



>> I've had two patrons stump me recently with this question: What is the

>> correct plural term for the mouse that is used with a computer? The

>> people I've polled seem to be equally divided between mice and mouses.

>> Any input would be greatly appreciated.

>>

  In some computer literature I have read but cannot identify specifically

at the moment, the plural is "mice." The same literature also uses "rodent"

in relation to the category of computer "mice."

Sali.

***********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene        s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

University of Chicago       312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861

Dept. of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

**********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Sep 1995 05:56:59 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



> abstract -- if anyone missed my earlier post on the conference and call for

> papers, let me know and I'll repeat it.



It's also in the ADS web pages. The job ads and calls for papers seem to

be very popular web pages, btw. The access logs show that they're looked

at quite often by people all over the world.



When looking at our web pages, if any of you notice errors or oddities,

please let me know. I use lynx to check additions or revisions most of

the time, sometimes because I have no choice, sometimes because I don't

have enough time to fool with Netscape or Mosaic (which I understand are

faster on ethernet than by modem but I have to use them by modem since my

office computer can't run such applications). Lynx is fine for checking

text but can't show any images, even things like the colored lines

separating job announcements or conferences. So if you notice messed-up

images on our web pages, please let me know. Thanks.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



P.S. In case you've forgotten, our URL is http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/

ADS/.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Sep 1995 13:32:43 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Mouses



Just last month I was in Orem, Utah and saw a computer store that was

advertising 'mice.' It seemed strange. I think this situation is

analogous to 'fly out' in baseball-- 'Smith flied out to right last

inning', not 'flew out.' Altho a word might already have a past or

plural, a new meaning for the word might effect a new past or plural form.

My vote goes to 'mouses.'

Fritz Juengling



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Sep 1995 14:11:38 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: English-only



Residents of Puerto Rico, regardless of where they were born, do not

vote in federal elections, but they do vote for the local government.

And all Puerto Ricans are US citizens: a citizen born in San Juan who

moves to Milwaukee has the same right to vote as any other citizen who

lives there. While Puerto Rico is not a state, its residents are US

citizens.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Sep 1995 16:04:19 -0500

From:  jeffrey howard allen <jhallen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Mouses



I think that our discussion of mice/mouses might lead someone to do a

linguistic study on irregular forms that have recent regular counterparts

due to specific domains and/or expressions. Anybody know of references

on the subject?



JEFF

 ---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Fri, 15 Sep 1995 13:32:43 -0500

From: Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Mouses



Just last month I was in Orem, Utah and saw a computer store that was

advertising 'mice.' It seemed strange. I think this situation is

analogous to 'fly out' in baseball-- 'Smith flied out to right last

inning', not 'flew out.' Altho a word might already have a past or

plural, a new meaning for the word might effect a new past or plural form.

My vote goes to 'mouses.'

Fritz Juengling



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Sep 1995 16:23:29 -0500

From:  Donald Larmouth <LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU>

Subject: Re: FOR English Only



I doubt that Mr. Roth would be eager to come, but it may be worth a try. The

Wisconsin TESOL group invited him to participate in a debate in May (with me,

as it happens), and he declined. When I was invited, there was some concern

that Mr. Roth might not accept, and I had jokingly suggested that I could

represent his position as well as my own. When the TESOL group took me up on

that suggestion, I extracted his remarks from the Congressional Record,

rearranged them somewhat, and set up the debate, moving from one podium to the

other as I changed roles. Mr. Roth no doubt realized that the TESOL group might

be unfriendly, whereas polls in the district indicate popular support for his

initiative--so why take the risk? However, when the local paper subsequently

invited guest editorials from Mr. Roth and myself, he did contribute an

editorial.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Sep 1995 16:22:51 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mouses



One of the tech writing people here, who does a lot of work onthe

side for the Ma Bells, says "mice" and "mouses" are equally used. His

preference is for "mouses."

He says "rodent" is not used in this context, neither genus nor species.



beth simon



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Sep 1995 15:39:17 -0600

From:  Marianna Di Paolo <m.dipaolo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M.CC.UTAH.EDU>

Subject: contempt vs. content



>up in New York (Manhattan or Long Island--the source, no doubt, of my

>"jew-le-ry"), or perhaps in California (L.A. or Berkeley), or even in the

>midwest (Ann Arbor or Madison), it most definitely was not contracted in a

>small town in Utah.

>

>Marianna Di Paolo:

>Sorry, Larry, I didn't remember your contribution when I tried to respond

>to Tom Clark. I must say that I enjoyed Tom's contextualization of his

>first hearing of "Familiarity breeds conTENT". Have the rest of you only

>heard it used facetiously as well or is it used in other types of contexts

>as well?

>

>******************************************************************************

>

>Has anyone considered the possibility that this is *purely* phonological?

>On ESPN's early SportsCenter (Weds. 13 Sept), I heard (in the summary of the

>day's OJ developments) that Marcia Clark had been cited for "conTENT of

>court".

>

>

>Alice Faber

>



Yeah, I thought we were assuming that it was at least partially

phonological (like a pullet surprise is) and partially semantic. I was

wondering, however, if it was only a nonce form or if it actually had some

social group connection.







Marianna Di Paolo

m.dipaolo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]m.cc.utah.edu

Linguistics Program

2300 LNCO

University of Utah

Salt Lake City, UT  84112



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Sep 1995 17:59:26 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: contempt vs. content



What is a "pullet surprise"???



Thanks,

Bethany

Bethany K. Dumas, J.D.., Ph.D. | Applied Linguistics, Language & Law

Dep't of English, UT, Knoxville | EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu

415 McClung Tower        | (615) 974-6965 | FAX (615) 974-6926

Knoxville, TN 37996-0430    | See Webpage at http://hamlet.la.utk.edu

(Hamlet is asleep for a few days, I think.)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Sep 1995 15:25:00 -0700

From:  Sheila Brennan <sbrennan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAILHOST.HOOKED.NET>

Subject: *** No Subject ***



Does anyone have an e-address for a human being associated with the running

of this list? I am having a problem that neither I nor my internet

provider can solve.  Thank you



sbrennan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hooked.net



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Sep 1995 18:43:08 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: *** No Subject ***



> Does anyone have an e-address for a human being associated with the running

> of this list?



Will a dog do? Bernard Chien Perro, a fine half-beagle, runs the list.

You can see his picture and hear him bark by going to http://walt.cs.

msstate.edu/~maynor/.



Sorry, gang. It's just the late-Friday crazies at work on my brain. I've

sent a note to Sheila asking what the problem is. Meanwhile, any time

anybody wants to find out various details of the list settings, including

my address and my dog's address as listowners -- and the addresses of all

the subscribers, send this command to listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu:



review ADS-L



  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 15 Sep 1995 21:34:52 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: bullets



Well, it was a nice suggestion. What's funny is that the lexicons seem to

list the derived meanings (I take it that this 'bullet' is a secondary forma-

tion from the PP 'with a bullet', as is the verb listed elsewhere) but for the

most part not the expression they derive from. Maybe Billboard magazine has

that one copyrighted :)

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

Sorry, J. E. Lighter's _Random House Historical Dictionary of American

Slang_ (vol. 1, A-G) is not any help. Meaning 12. Says (in its entirety)

"_Music Industry_. A recording that rapidly becomes a hit. 1974

_Night-Stalker_ (ABC-TV): A _bullet_ is a tune that goes right to the top,

that's gonna be a hit. 1979 Homer _Jargon_ 119: _Bullet_. A record

believed to be a potential success."



I guess for "with a bullet" we'll have to wait until they get to the volume

that has W in it.



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Sep 1995 to 15 Sep 1995

************************************************





There are 13 messages totalling 306 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. length of postings (2)

 2. Mondegreens (2)

 3. Going postal (7)

 4. ?Pea Turkey Squat (fwd)

 5. email address



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Sep 1995 00:28:34 -0400

From:  ALICE FABER <faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: length of postings



Robert Wachal wrote:



>> I get the ADS msgs in digest form, but I've stopped reading them because

>> of all the diatribes about "English only." If things don't calm down

>> soon, I'll probably quit the list. Yes, I know, I can go to NODIGEST and

>> then deal with screenfuls beclouding the stuff I want from other sources

>> as well as from ADS. I'd especially hate to miss Don Lance's thoughtful

>> comments and some others too.



I sympathize completely. In my mind, however, the problem is not the topic per

se--I think English only legislation, pro and con--is well within the

"charter" of ADS-L. Rather, the problem is the *length* of postings. For

example, in tonight's digest there were complete copies (at least, I think

they were complete, but I don't know, since I scrolled through them as quickly

as my modem connection will allow) of two pieces of proposed English only

legislation.



Since there are clearly people on the list who are interested in such

things--the discussion clearly wouldn't be continuing if there weren't--can we

perhaps think of a way to shift the burden of such postings to those who *are*

interested from those of us who are seriously overwhelmed by them? I can think

of two ways to do this:

    i) instead of posting something lengthy (say > 100 lines), post a two

line summary, ending "email me if you want a copy".

    ii) work out a way to link such things to the ADS web page, and

announce that they're there.



I think the first of these is preferable, since it wouldn't add to Natalie's

work load and it doesn't presuppose technological access and expertise beyond

what all ADS-L subscribers already have.



Perhaps some other subscribers can add to my suggestions. Note that I

*haven't* suggested that we convert ADS-L to something more like Linguist List

(moderated postings grouped together by topic [by an actual editor] and

circulated as much as 2 weeks after they're sent in); this option would

require a lot of volunteer work. And, in any case, another subscriber has

reminded me that one of the benefits of ADS-L is that any one of us can post a

question in the morning and have extensive feedback and response by the time

we go home for the evening (or the next morning, for us Digest readers).



Alice Faber

faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haskins.yale.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Sep 1995 00:29:04 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: Mondegreens



"pullet surprise" is what many of us call Mondegreens, those mishearings

we've all had at one time or another. This one is a mishearing of

Pullitzer Prize.



The term Mondegreen is from the old English ballad "The Earl of Murray."

The line in question goes something like "and they killed the Earl of

Murray and laid him on the green" which was heard as the killing of two

people, the poor Earl of Murray and Lady Mondegreen.



They include "Gladly, the cross-eyed bear," "Lead us not into Penn

Station" etc. I remember as a kid hearing what I thought was Notor

Republic. I knew what a republic was, but had never heard of one that was

Notor. And my grandmother used to say someone looked "Pale as a goat."



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Sep 1995 05:10:23 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: length of postings



>     ii) work out a way to link such things to the ADS web page, and

> announce that they're there.



That would be no problem at all. I'm always happy to find new material

to put in our web, ftp, and gopher files.



> I think the first of these is preferable, since it wouldn't add to Natalie's

> work load and it doesn't presuppose technological access and expertise beyond

> what all ADS-L subscribers already have.



Don't worry about my "work load." I don't think of anything net-related

as being work-related. It's all fun. As for people's technological access

and expertise, it would be unusual these days to find many people in the

academic world without at least ftp and gopher access, and probably most

have some kind of web access, although perhaps text-only (which is all I

have at my office -- I have to come home to use Netscape). And technical

expertise has a way of developing quickly when there's something in

particular that somebody wants to do. Almost everything I've ever learned

about net life, or about computers in general, has been prompted by a

sudden need or desire to do something in particular.



> Perhaps some other subscribers can add to my suggestions. Note that I

> *haven't* suggested that we convert ADS-L to something more like Linguist List

> (moderated postings grouped together by topic [by an actual editor] and

> circulated as much as 2 weeks after they're sent in); this option would



Good. I hate moderated lists. About the only thing I do with LINGUIST is

grab job ads and calls for papers from it to put on our web pages.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Sep 1995 06:27:15 -0500

From:  "Becky Howard, Department of Interdisciplinary Writing,

     Colgate University" <BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU>

Subject: Going postal



Heard a new version of "going ballistic" yesterday: "going postal"

(i.e., postal workers' violence). Like "going ballistic," "going postal"

means having a strong reaction--usually an excessively strong reaction--

to a situation.



I heard this one from a colleague who heard it from a student. Is it a

Colgate quirk, or have some of you heard it, too?



Becky Howard

Department of Interdisciplinary Writing

Colgate University

Hamilton NY 13346

Voice (315) 824-7315; FAX (315) 824-7121

BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Sep 1995 07:11:48 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Going postal



> I heard this one from a colleague who heard it from a student. Is it a

> Colgate quirk, or have some of you heard it, too?



I've been hearing it for a good while now -- ever since shortly after

the post-office shootings back whenever. (I hesitate to make a guess

about how long ago that was, having noticed lately that my sense of time

has become very screwed up. Several times lately I've claimed that

something was "a few months ago" only to discover that it was five years

ago. Tempus fugit.)

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Sep 1995 10:12:39 -0400

From:  "H. Stephen STRAIGHT (Binghamton University/SUNY)"

     <sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Going postal



On Sat, 16 Sep 1995, Becky Howard, Department of Interdisciplinary

Writing, Colgate University wrote: > Heard a new version of "going

ballistic" yesterday: "going postal"



What a coincidence! I heard it for the first time this week, from a

colleague. I didn't ask where he heard it, but Hamilton is just up the

road from here, and he lives in Ithaca, so it may be a phenom of the

Cornell-Binghamton-Hamilton triangle.



H Stephen STRAIGHT, Anthro/Ling/Lgs Across the Curric, Binghamton U (SUNY)

Box 6000, Binghamton NY 13902-6000  Tel: 607-777-2824  Fax: 607-777-2889



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Sep 1995 09:24:28 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: Going postal



>On Sat, 16 Sep 1995, Becky Howard, Department of Interdisciplinary



>What a coincidence! I heard it for the first time this week, from a

>colleague. I didn't ask where he heard it, but Hamilton is just up the

>road from here, and he lives in Ithaca, so it may be a phenom of the

>Cornell-Binghamton-Hamilton triangle.



I don't think so--I live in Texas and I've been hearing it for at least a

year. It's even beginning to take on variations ("Watch out--the boss looks

postal this morning.")



Kate Catmull          kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Sep 1995 11:05:12 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood <dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Going postal



> Heard a new version of "going ballistic" yesterday: "going postal"



My friend Vince Miller (head of the International Society for

Individual Liberty here in San Francisco) claims to have coined it.

Certainly I first heard it from him or someone near him.



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Sep 1995 11:16:44 -0700

From:  Sylvia Swift <madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: Going postal



> Heard a new version of "going

> ballistic" yesterday: "going postal"



i first started hearing this phrase in california in about december 1994,

in connection with a public lecture on violence in the work place

sponsored by the american studies working group at berkeley. the speaker,

whose name escapes me (i could probably dig it out of our website, if

anyone's interested), reportedly used the phrase to mean something like,

"to take weapons into one's place of current or former employment and

commit a violent act." i missed the talk, but in the following months i

heard several speakers use the phrase in what i thought was this same

sense. i heard it recently on the radio, and that time it may have had

the broader (variation of ballastic) sense. i've also seen it in print

at least once, probably in _the bay guardian_ or _east bay express_, our

free weeklies.



sylvia swift

madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Sep 1995 15:28:41 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?Pea Turkey Squat (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Sat, 16 Sep 1995 11:00:59 -0700 (PDT)

From: Marian Drabkin <drabk#mm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak2.ci.oakland.ca.us>

To: "Curtis R. Rogers" <CURTIS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]leo.scsl.state.sc.us>

Cc: stumpers-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU, CURTIS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]leo.scsl.state.sc.us

Subject: Re: ?Pea Turkey Squat



It's probably related to the term "diddly squat" for the same meaning.

I'd hazard a guess (don't flame me for guessing, please!) that "squat"

here is only a euphemism for excrement, as in "aw, he don't know s__t!"

-- Marian

On

Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Curtis R. Rogers wrote:



>

> Patron is asking for the origin of what we believe to

> be a southern colloquialism - but cannot locate.

> to be used in the phrase:

> You don't know 'pea turkey squat' about that!

> meaning you don't know anything about that...

> Thanks in advance!

> Curtis Rogers

> SC State Library

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Sep 1995 19:28:35 -0400

From:  "William H. Smith" <Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: email address



Does anyone have the email addres for Texas A & M? I am trying to reach

Barbara Johnstone, but I have the wrong address.

Bill Smith

Piedmont College

Demorest, GA



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Sep 1995 21:54:57 -0400

From:  James C Stalker <stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Going postal



My first awareness of "going postal" is from a bit in <Time>, 9/4/95 which

quotes several terms from a publication called <USA Phrasebook> published by

Lonely Planet for Australian tourists who plan to visit the US. They are listed

as slang, and are presented as "being in use in various corners of the US."

The definition given for "going postal" is "euphemism for being totally stressed

out." I have not checked this one with my classes, but I have checked another,

"flip a bitch," 'make a u-turn,' which my midwestern students claim to have

never heard. Given the Australian publication source, is this likely to be

California (or West Coast) in origin. What are the likely dissemination

patterns for US slang getting to Australia? I will check "flip a bitch" and

the other quoted terms on Tuesday.



James C. Stalker

Dept. of English

Michigan State University

stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 16 Sep 1995 23:16:46 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mondegreens



Rima McKinzey writes:

>"pullet surprise" is what many of us call Mondegreens, those mishearings

>we've all had at one time or another. This one is a mishearing of

>Pullitzer Prize.



Right, as in the possibly apocryphal student examinee who wrote that so-and-so

won a pullet surprise. I've adopted this term for this particular variety of

folk-etymological reanalysis (e.g. four-stair furnace, spitting image) since

coming across it in Fromkin & Rodman, who cite an eponymous compilation. I

don't know if there's a term for the orthographic variety (e.g. shoe-in).



             Larry



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Sep 1995 to 16 Sep 1995

************************************************





There are 7 messages totalling 140 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. going postal

 2. Usage: "any more" (fwd) (3)

 3. Flip a (was Going Postal)

 4. Mondegreens (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 17 Sep 1995 00:17:16 -0400

From:  ALICE FABER <faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: going postal



With regard to "going postal", someone related to the most recent (or most

recent -1) episode of a former postal worker taking out his outrage by

shooting up his former post office. Unfortunately, a data-base search over the

past 10-15 years would reveal a number of episodes of this sort. I think the

expression "going postal" reflects in part a stereotype that this behavior is

much more typical of former postal workers than of former insurance

salespeople. As for dating the expression, I'm sure I heard it before 1994.

I'm also sure that I heard it first from my sister, whom I used to think of as

the source of all new expressions in English. She now works in north central

Connecticut, but before 1992 she lived in eastern NY, with extensive work

contacts (through the state office for her department) in Syracuse, NY.



Alice Faber



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 17 Sep 1995 13:16:03 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Usage: "any more" (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Sun, 17 Sep 95 11:56:28 EWT

From:DYSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cluster.ucs.indiana.edu

To: Stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU

Subject: Usage: "any more"



Can anyone supply me with a first-seen-in-print cite for the usage of "any

more" not in its customary sense of "no longer" or "any longer" (Bob does not

live here any more), but meaning "nowadays" (Any more you can't tell the

difference)? I assume it is an Americanism, though I never heard it as I was

growing up. Perhaps our British and Australian colleagues can indicate whether

they hear it used that way as well. Thanks.



John Dyson

Spanish and Portuguese

Indiana University



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 17 Sep 1995 16:32:07 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Usage: "any more" (fwd)



I don't know if I can track down the last two or three flurries of postings

about positive (non-polarity) 'anymore' from my old ADS and Linguist List

files, but the earliest citation I've personally attested is from Lawrence,

_Women in Love_, when Birkin announces "Suffering bores me any more". This

also demonstrates pretty clearly that it's not (just) an Americanism. I seem

to recall other citations from the British Isles, but (as you may have

discovered) research along the usual lines is a bit hampered by the fact that

the OED doesn't consider 'anymore' a word, so there's no way to check for

first citings/sightings.    --Larry Horn



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 17 Sep 1995 18:32:09 EDT

From:  Terry Lynn Irons <t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: Usage: "any more" (fwd)



If memory serves me correctly (and betimes it doesn't) Gilbert Youmans

has an article in some issue in _American Speech_ that considers positive

anymore and its distribution. The article may point to any early citation.

If it doesn't, the people at the University of Missouri (where Gilbert

teaches, where Don Lance retired from, where I went to school, where a

colleague of mine recently accepted a position, where they have the

Tammony archives and other cool stuff, where the guy named Randy (excuse

me for not getting this right) often presents some good information

to us works) might be able to provide a citation. Labov writes about

this somewhere, but I doubt that he or his students are careful about

detailed data.



The last remark was intended to be incendiary.



Terry Irons

--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 17 Sep 1995 17:45:26 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Flip a (was Going Postal)



Re : James C. Stalker's...



I saw that TIME mag article and was surprised at "flip a bitch", which

has been "flip a Brodie" as attested in both DAS (Lighter) and DARE, long

as I remember. Since Lighter attributed it to Southern Californiacs, I

assumed that the Aussies had gotten it from there too. The main interest

of the OZ MTV-copiers seems to be So. Cal.

Cheers,

tlc



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 17 Sep 1995 17:48:55 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mondegreens



Uh, Larry, There is a BOOK of such "aural/oral-spelling" gaffes named

_Pullet Surprise_

Cheers,

tlc



On Sat, 16 Sep 1995, Larry Horn wrote:



> Rima McKinzey writes:

> >"pullet surprise" is what many of us call Mondegreens, those mishearings

> >we've all had at one time or another. This one is a mishearing of

> >Pullitzer Prize.

>

> Right, as in the possibly apocryphal student examinee who wrote that so-and-so

> won a pullet surprise. I've adopted this term for this particular variety of

> folk-etymological reanalysis (e.g. four-stair furnace, spitting image) since

> coming across it in Fromkin & Rodman, who cite an eponymous compilation. I

> don't know if there's a term for the orthographic variety (e.g. shoe-in).

>

>              Larry

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 17 Sep 1995 22:21:42 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mondegreens



But what happens to the glide in the first syllable of "Pulitzer"?



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Sep 1995 to 17 Sep 1995

************************************************





There are 27 messages totalling 434 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. reasonably bizarre anymore! (5)

 2. Mondegreens (2)

 3. Pullet Surprises (3)

 4. no mishaps (4)

 5. Not to be prescriptive, but...

 6. Consonant Cluster Reduction

 7. Consonant Cluster Reduction/Busleft

 8. A coinage worth keeping

 9. Usage: "any more" (fwd) (3)

 10. The Quayling of American Usage? (2)

 11. Mondegreens (Pulitzer)

 12. Inaugurations: Ohio, Staten Island, Grand Rapids

 13. Going postal (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 00:04:05 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood <dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM>

Subject: reasonably bizarre anymore!



Possibly analogous to the positive use of "anymore":

any comment on this use of "reasonably"? (seen on stumpers-l)



> the show has never been on Masterpiece Theatre. It was called Nice Town

> and was a British show dealing with race in a reasonably bizarre manner.

> It was difficult to make out whether the show was a surreal commedy, a

> black comedy, or a serious narrative dealing with modern issues in the

> UK. The show was enjoyable although passing strange.



"reasonably bizarre" is a phrase I never expected to see used in a sentence.

Is "reasonably" used here as a synonym for "considerably"?

Or does it mean "not too bizarre"?



--

> But what happens to the glide in the first syllable of "Pulitzer"?



What glide?



*\\* Anton                       Ubi scriptum?



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 06:44:44 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: reasonably bizarre anymore!



>"reasonably bizarre" is a phrase I never expected to see used in a sentence.

>Is "reasonably" used here as a synonym for "considerably"?

>Or does it mean "not too bizarre"?



I'd read it (and probably use it, actually) to mean "fairly bizarre,"

though come to think of it that doesn't make much more immediate sense than

"reasonably."



Kate Catmull      kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 08:37:37 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mondegreens



>But what happens to the glide in the first syllable of "Pulitzer"?

>

>Bethany Dumas



There's a glide there? I misspelled it on a flyer once with two l's

because I rhyme the first syllable with "pull."



Wayne Glowka



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 09:07:06 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: reasonably bizarre anymore!



Where I come from, we say /pyulitzer/. What do the rest of you say?



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 09:55:59 -0400

From:  ALICE FABER <faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Pullet Surprises



But what happens to the glide in the first syllable of "Pulitzer"?



Bethany Dumas



******************************************************************************



Uh, not to be facetious or anything, but *what* glide? For me, the first

syllables of both Pulizer and pullet is /pUl/. So, for you, the first syllable

of Pulitzer rhymes with _few_, Bethany?



Alice Faber



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:08:55 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mondegreens



Tom Clark writes:



>Uh, Larry, There is a BOOK of such "aural/oral-spelling" gaffes named

>_Pullet Surprise_



in reference to my mentioning of the term that I first



>>[came] across it in Fromkin & Rodman, who cite an eponymous compilation.







I know--that's what I had intended to refer to with the reference to an

eponymous compilation (sorry for not having been more specific, but 'eponymous'

seemed too pompous and formal to follow it with just plain 'book'). I didn't

have my Fromkin & Rodman on me at home, but now I can tell anyone interested

that the book is called "Pullet Surprises" and it was written (or compiled) by

Amsel Greene (Glenview, Ill: Scott,Foresman, 1969). (There may be follow-ups

of the usual sort--More Pullet Surprises, Still More... I can't check because

they're evidently not scholarly enough for the Yale library, whose on-line

catalog doesn't list Pullet or Amsel Greene.)

  As for the pun, I'm in Wayne's dialect and not in Bethany's; I've always

pronounced the prize as   "PULLitzer", but now that you mention it, I've

heard it pronounced both ways. I don't know how Joseph & family did so.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:21:15 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pullet Surprises



Alice Faber asked:



"Uh, not to be facetious or anything, but *what* glide? For me, the first

syllables of both Pulizer and pullet is /pUl/. So, for you, the first syllable

of Pulitzer rhymes with _few_, Bethany?"



Right!



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:24:41 -0400

From:  Merri Lisa Johnson <mj906388[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: no mishaps



There is a phrase that I use and yet am not sure what the exact words are. Has

anyone heard: Borrowing no mishaps / Barring no mishaps. Which one is the

original? My grandma says it's the second one, but that one doesn't make sense.

Context example: "I will visit you at Christmas, barring / borrowing no

mishaps." "I graduate in June, barring / borrowing no mishaps." Etc. Does

anyone have any information?



Merri Lisa Johnson

Ohio University



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 09:30:07 -0500

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: no mishaps



On Mon, 18 Sep 1995, Merri Lisa Johnson wrote:



> There is a phrase that I use and yet am not sure what the exact words are. Has

> anyone heard: Borrowing no mishaps / Barring no mishaps. Which one is the

> original?



Hmmm. I've always said and heard "barring any mishap," or sometimes

"mishaps," plural.



Kate Catmull      kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 09:32:25 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: reasonably bizarre anymore!



> Where I come from, we say /pyulitzer/. What do the rest of you say?



"Pulitzer" to me definitely is [ju] not [u] -- same vowel as in a cat

sound, not a cow sound.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 08:24:18 -0700

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: reasonably bizarre anymore!



I always heard it as /pyulitzer/ when I was growing up but now

commonly hear /pulitzer/. I still tend to say /pyulitzer/ .

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Mon, 18 Sep 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



> > Where I come from, we say /pyulitzer/. What do the rest of you say?

>

> "Pulitzer" to me definitely is [ju] not [u] -- same vowel as in a cat

> sound, not a cow sound.

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 11:30:42 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Not to be prescriptive, but...



>From my Webster's New Collegiate, 7th (1967) ed. but I assume still valid,

under Biographical Names, p. 1082,



 PULITZER \|pUl-#t-s#r\ (family's pronunication), |pyu-l#t-\ Joseph 1847-1911

  Am. (Hung.-born) journalist



...where U, #, and u are my feeble ascii renderings of the vowels of 'pull,

wool' [u with a dot on it], 'cOllect' [schwa], and 'youth, rule' [u with an

umlaut over it] respectively.

That is, the family would have called it the PULL-itzer prize, however others

may glide.

--Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:48:55 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Consonant Cluster Reduction



I once ordered two Pabsts and managed, with little difficulty, to

lengthen the vowel sufficiently for the second stop to be perceived as

voiced. Others at the table tried to do the same but not all of them

could control airsteam and laryngeal musculature well enough to

accomplish this simple little feat. But when I was an undergraduate and

has occasion to refer to Sbisa Dining Hall, I always managed voice-onset

of the vowel so that there was a clear [sb-] cluster. Maybe I don't

really speak English and need some EOL.    DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:55:33 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Consonant Cluster Reduction/Busleft



Some time ago I had a Black student who had attended a Catholic high

school. He said the nuns would haze the Black kids by asking what

Jesus did from the tomb. They knew they were supposed to give a one-

word answer. Their consonant cluster reduction and prenasal vowel

yielded a response that merited a sound slap across the hand with a

wooden ruler. Ascend.        DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 12:46:40 -0400

From:  Jerry Miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: A coinage worth keeping



>Someone I know at one of the PBS stations tells me the people at the

station (and maybe other PBS stations) refer to their periodic telethons to

raise money to pay for some of their programming as "beg-athons." Now

there's a coinage worth keeping, in my opinion, since it comes closer to

reflect the real tone of those things. Agree?



Jerry Miller



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 11:52:34 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Usage: "any more" (fwd)



On positive 'anymore' --

"Positive _anymore_ in the Midwest" Heartland English. ed. Timothy Frazer.

  U of Alabama P, 1993. pp. 173-86. Article written by Thomas E. Murray.



"Any More on Anymore? Evidence from a Missouri Dialect Survey." American

 Speech 61 (1986) 61-75.  Article written by Gilbert Youmans.



And others, some of which are cited in these articles.    DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 14:37:31 -0400

From:  Jerry Miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: The Quayling of American Usage?



A colleague of mine from the English department asked over lunch today if I

remembered what Indiana's illustrious bad-speller, Dan Quayle, once tried to

do as a U.S. senator to make Merriam-Webster drop the second definition of

"hoosier" (as a general term for an uncouth, unpolished person) from its

dictionary.

Does anybody out there remember that? I'd appreciate hearing what you recall

of that incident, which I did not recall but, of course, was not at all

surprised to hear. I did remember a thread on this list sometime back about

the origins of the word "hoosier" (for residents of our fair state--you may

interpret "fair" any way you wish), but I don't intend to open that one up

again (although my colleague is convinced that the tale of it deriving from

a boating term, "hoozer," used along the north side of the Ohio River, is

the most likely origin, not the "whooosthere?" theory.

Any illumination will be greatly appreciated.



Jerry Miller

Pulliam School of Journalism

Franklin College (Ind.)

millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]franklincoll.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 13:50:55 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: no mishaps



Maybe "barring no mishaps" is a shortened form of "not barring no mishaps."

I'm serious here. The augmented negative is the norm in so many people's

speech that this, to me, would be a logical development for speakers of

dialects with augmented negation.

                 DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 13:57:27 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: The Quayling of American Usage?



DARE has a superb entry on 'hoosier'      DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 15:11:42 -0400

From:  GWENDOLYN RENAE SMALL <grsmal01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: no mishaps



Merri,



   I always thought the correct phrase was "barring no mishaps" as in

excluding any complications. I had never heard the term "borrowing no

mishaps" until your inquiry. I apologize if I sent this reply twice.



Gwen Small

Morehead State University



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 15:32:38 -0400

From:  Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Mondegreens (Pulitzer)



"But what happens to the glide in the first syllable of "Pulitzer"?"



The Pulitzer family themselves are said (according to an authoritative but

alas now forgotten journalistic source) to pronounce the first syllable as

"pull."



- Allan Metcalf



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 15:37:00 -0400

From:  Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Inaugurations: Ohio, Staten Island, Grand Rapids



Volunteers would be welcome to represent the American Dialect Society at

three inaugurations:



Kenyon College, Gambier, Ohio, Saturday, Oct. 21



College of Staten Island, CUNY, Friday, Oct. 27



Calvin College, Grand Rapids, Michigan, Monday, Oct. 30



You would get a forward place in the academic procession, and various meals

and receptions and other honors. You would have to provide your own academic

attire and travel expenses. Interested? Please let me know as soon as

possible!



Thanks - Allan Metcalf, ADS executive secretary <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 15:12:46 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Usage: "any more" (fwd)



I don't have either of Don's references on me at the moment, but one point I

had meant to add in my earlier posting is that there was some discussion of

positive 'anymore' in American Speech back in the early 1930's. Maybe the

recent references cite those earlier ones more specifically.



           Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 19:07:22 -0400

From:  RACHEL A CALDWELL <racald01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: Usage: "any more" (fwd)



Hello everyone my name is Rachel. I have been quiet like a mouse. I

listen to everyone but I don't share my thoughts. I am here to say hello.

I don't really know what to say so maybe I will go for now. I will be back.





Rachel Caldwell



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 19:53:25 -0400

From:  "H. Stephen STRAIGHT (Binghamton University/SUNY)"

     <sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pullet Surprises



Just so Bethany isn't left out to dry on this one, I too confess to

having grown up rhyming the first syllable of Pulitzer with "few". I've

since (largely) grown out of it, but I agree with Larry that I gave up my

pronunciation out of pure peer pressure: What do the Pulitzers say, anyway?

    Best.          Bye.          Steve



H Stephen STRAIGHT, Anthro/Ling/Lgs Across the Curric, Binghamton U (SUNY)

Box 6000, Binghamton NY 13902-6000  Tel: 607-777-2824  Fax: 607-777-2889



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 23:55:33 -0400

From:  Laura Hensley <hensley8[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MARSHALL.EDU>

Subject: Re: Going postal



Never heard it, but I LIKE IT!



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 23:59:18 -0400

From:  Laura Hensley <hensley8[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MARSHALL.EDU>

Subject: Re: Going postal



If it was heard in California in 1984, and I have just recently heard it

(from this list). . .Does that mean that it takes over 10 years to get

from coast to coast?



Laura Hensley

Huntington, WV



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Sep 1995 to 18 Sep 1995

************************************************





There are 24 messages totalling 626 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. ?Gordon Bennett (fwd)

 2. Usage: "any more" (fwd) (3)

 3. Mondegreens (4)

 4. Going postal

 5. Bounced Mail

 6. Positive "anymore"

 7. reasonably bizarre anymore (2)

 8. ?Gordon Bennett

 9. NWAVE schedule revisions, abstracts on WWW

 10. bizzing (3)

 11. Speaking the Same Language, Multiple SOC Model of Language

 12. Consonant Cluster Reduction

 13. English Only (2)

 14. ?Gordon Bennett & PEW litzer

 15. ?Mice/Mouses (fwd)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 20:36:20 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: ?Gordon Bennett (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 08:29:14 -0700 (MST)

From: Jan Pike <jpike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ci.phoenix.az.us>

To: stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU

Subject: ?Gordon Bennett



This is a personal query, so there is no time limit for the answer. It's

just bugging me. My Brit husband has always used the phrase Gordon

bennett! as an exclamation. He has no idea who Gordon Bennett was or if

he existed. I recently discovered that there is a Gordon Bennett hot air

balloon race in Europe. So, who was he and why is he an exclamation? TIA.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 20:41:37 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Usage: "any more" (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 09:58:15 -0700 (PDT)

From: Janet Harader <jharader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLASS.ORG>

To: DYSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cluster.ucs.indiana.edu

Cc: Stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU

Subject: Re: Usage: "any more"



"The Random House Dictionary of the English Usage" states that anymore is

commonly spelled as one word. They give two definitions. The second,

which is "nowadays; presently" gives the date of 1350-1400; Middle

English "ani more any longer". The dictionary does not give a source of

a book or quote where the word originated, only a date.



- - -

Janet Harader              E-mail: jharader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]class.org

Reference Librarian           Voice: (209) 582-0261

Kings County Library          Fax: (209) 583-6163

- - -



On Sun, 17 Sep 1995 DYSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cluster.ucs.indiana.edu wrote:



> Can anyone supply me with a first-seen-in-print cite for the usage of "any

> more" not in its customary sense of "no longer" or "any longer" (Bob does not

> live here any more), but meaning "nowadays" (Any more you can't tell the

> difference)? I assume it is an Americanism, though I never heard it as I was

> growing up. Perhaps our British and Australian colleagues can indicate

 whether

> they hear it used that way as well. Thanks.

>

> John Dyson

> Spanish and Portuguese

> Indiana University

>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 18 Sep 1995 23:39:14 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: Mondegreens



If you say pyulitzer, you would never have misheard the prize as "Pullet

Surprise." Guess this whole thing didn't make much sense, then.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 04:48:56 -0600

From:  "Salikoko S. Mufwene" <s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Going postal



Sorry, folks. I've got to use this medium to reach Allan Metcalf, whose mail

has been bouncing back to me. Allan, can you please send me your e-mail

address?

Sali.

**********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene        s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

University of Chicago       312-702-8531; FAX: 312-702-9861

Department of Linguistics

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

**********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 05:59:24 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mondegreens



> If you say pyulitzer, you would never have misheard the prize as "Pullet

     ^^^                  ^^^^^

> Surprise." Guess this whole thing didn't make much sense, then.



I say pyulitzer but don't have any trouble recognizing pullitzer as a

yankee variation of the same word. So "pullet surprise" works fine.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 06:03:04 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Bounced Mail



****************************************************************

 REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING

 YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES

 TO ADS-L IN THE HEADERS.

****************************************************************

> Date:     Tue, 19 Sep 1995 02:15:53 -0400

> From: "L-Soft list server at UGA (1.8b)" <LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

> Subject:   ADS-L: error report from MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU

>

>The enclosed message, found in the ADS-L mailbox and shown under the spool ID

>3575 in the system log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice

>for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to

>the list has been found in mail body.

>

> ----------------- Message in error (64 lines) --------------------------

> Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 20:20:51 -0500 (CDT)

> From: Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu>

> Subject: Re: Usage: "any more" (fwd)

>

> ---------- Forwarded message ----------

> Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 22:40:40 -0400 (EDT)

> From: Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu>

> To: Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu>

> Cc: stumpers <stumpers-List[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU>

> Subject: Re: Usage: "any more" (fwd)

>

> On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Daniel S Goodman wrote:

>

> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------

> > Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 16:32:07 EDT

> > From: Larry Horn <LHORN%YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vm1.spcs.umn.edu>

> > Subject: Re: Usage: "any more" (fwd)

> >

> > I don't know if I can track down the last two or three flurries of postings

> > about positive (non-polarity) 'anymore' from my old ADS and Linguist List

> > files, but the earliest citation I've personally attested is from Lawrence,

> > _Women in Love_, when Birkin announces "Suffering bores me any more". This

> > also demonstrates pretty clearly that it's not (just) an Americanism. I seem

> > to recall other citations from the British Isles, but (as you may have

> > discovered) research along the usual lines is a bit hampered by the fact that

> > the OED doesn't consider 'anymore' a word, so there's no way to check for

> > first citings/sightings.    --Larry Horn

>

> Yes, _any more_ is in the OED, s.v. _more_ 4.a. The OED notes that "The

> phrase _any more_ (freq. written as _anymore_) is also used in

> affirmative as well as negative contexts in the sense `now, now-a-days,

> at the present time; from now on'. _dial._ (chiefly U.S.)." The

> earliest citations given are:

>

> 1898 _Eng. Dial. Dict._ I. 63/1 A servant being instructed how to act,

> will answer `I will do it any more.'

>

> 1903 _McClure's Mag._ Dec. 215/1 There's just only this one any more.

>

> I have not checked other sources, such as DARE; there may be earlier evidence

> there.

>

> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

> + Fred R. Shapiro               Editor            +

> + Associate Librarian for Public Services   OXFORD DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN +

> + Yale Law School               LEGAL QUOTATIONS       +

> + e-mail: shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minerva.cis.yale.edu    (Oxford University Press)   +

> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 06:59:35 -0500

From:  wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject: Positive "anymore"



Yes there is an interesting article in _Heartland English_, but it has a

few serious problems. (see my forthcoming review in _American Speech_,

next issue, I think)



Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 08:57:16 -0400

From:  "Winfield, Laurie" <lwinfield[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RINET.HUNTON.COM>

Subject: Re: Mondegreens



Yeah, but what the heck is a mondegreen? Am I dense or what?

 ----------

From: American Dialect Society

To: Multiple recipients of list ADS

Subject: Re: Mondegreens

Date: Tuesday, September 19, 1995 8:12AM



> If you say pyulitzer, you would never have misheard the prize as "Pullet

     ^^^                  ^^^^^

> Surprise." Guess this whole thing didn't make much sense, then.



I say pyulitzer but don't have any trouble recognizing pullitzer as a

yankee variation of the same word. So "pullet surprise" works fine.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 08:10:54 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mondegreens



> Yeah, but what the heck is a mondegreen? Am I dense or what?



Lady Mondegreen

Laid him on the green



  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:02:43 EDT

From:  DANIELLE L LEVITT <dllevi01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: reasonably bizarre anymore



 I also say "pulitzer" as pyulitzer. There is a glide in there, isn't there?

 Or am I just crazy?



 Danielle Levitt

 dllevi01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:10:47 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Usage: "any more" (fwd)



Thanks to Fred Shapiro for this useful information. Somehow after being dis-

appointed at 'any', I never thought of persisting and checking under 'more'.

But while the 1898 citation is a clear example,



>Yes, _any more_ is in the OED, s.v. _more_ 4.a. The OED notes that "The

>phrase _any more_ (freq. written as _anymore_) is also used in

>affirmative as well as negative contexts in the sense `now, now-a-days,

>at the present time; from now on'. _dial._ (chiefly U.S.)." The

>earliest citations given are:

>

>1898 _Eng. Dial. Dict._ I. 63/1 A servant being instructed how to act,

>will answer `I will do it any more.'

The 1903 one is not. There's a negative polarity trigger here, viz. _only_.



>1903 _McClure's Mag._ Dec. 215/1 There's just only this one any more.



While _only_ (and notice its pleonastic support by _just_ here) doesn't

license any old negative polarity item, it does license some, and there's known

to be idiolectal variation as to just which ones. Consider, inter alia,



  I've only ever been there once.

  My nose and my lungs are only alive at all because they are part of my

   body and share its common life.  [C.S. Lewis]

  Of all your friends, only Chris would lift a finger to help you.

  Only Kim ate any of the baklava.



These are all impeccable for me (but would be impossible without the _only_),

and indeed so were

  The only thing you do anymore is complain.

  You're the only one I care about anymore.

even before I was exposed to the "positive 'anymore'" dialect. The McClure's

example is not that great for me, but I can imagine other non-pos-anymore

speakers accepting and using it.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:34:59 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Usage: "any more" (fwd)



   Janet Harader <jharader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLASS.ORG> writes



>"The Random House Dictionary of the English Usage" states that anymore is

>commonly spelled as one word. They give two definitions. The second,

>which is "nowadays; presently" gives the date of 1350-1400; Middle

>English "ani more any longer". The dictionary does not give a source of

>a book or quote where the word originated, only a date.



Sorry for being skeptical again, but I'm not convinced that this is our

quarry. The standard dialect _anymore_ can also be glossed (more or less) as

'nowadays' or 'presently', if the latter is taken (as I imagine was intended)

as 'now' (could 'anymore' ever have meant 'presently' in the sense of 'soon'?).

The problem is that dictionaries don't in general have syntactic diacritics,

such as [NPI] for negative polarity items. In most dictionaries, you can't

look up 'much' and 'many' and find a diacritic or comment to indicate that the

former but not the latter is restricted (in its general, non-pre-comparative

use) to negative and related contexts--

    He eats many vegetables.

    He doesn't eat many vegetables.

    ?He drinks much milk.

    He doesn't drink much milk.)

Or _budge_ may be glossed as 'move, shift', but this doesn't tell us that we

say 'She moved' or 'He shifted', but not 'They budged', only 'They didn't

budge'.

So the fact that _The Random House Dictionary of the English Usage_ [can that

be right?] gives 1350-1400 as a date at which the 'nowadays, presently' sense

of _anymore_ is attested can't necessarily be taken at face value without

knowing whether the contexts of occurrence were really those forcing the

positive use.



--Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 11:14:37 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: reasonably bizarre anymore



>  I also say "pulitzer" as pyulitzer. There is a glide in there, isn't there?

>  Or am I just crazy?



now, i would think that anyone on this list would know better than to

call anyone (selves includes) "crazy" for pronouncing something

differently (from/than the mainstream)!



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 12:24:20 -0400

From:  Jerry Miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?Gordon Bennett



James Gordon Bennett was the publisher of the New York Herald, founding it

in 1835. It was a fairly sensational rag for its time, but it also pioneered

in the field of covering religion and generally is credited for creating

"beats" for reporters to cover.

While Bennett Sr. did some pretty outrageous things in his day, it probably

was his son, James Gordon Bennett Jr., who outdid him and, perhaps, produced

the exclamation you asked about. It was Bennett Jr., for example, who sent

Henry Stanley to Africa to find Dr. Livingstone, I presume. I'm not sure who

started the balloon race, however.

Hope this helps a little.



Jerry Miller

Pulliam School of Journalism

Franklin College (Ind.)

millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]franklincoll.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 13:22:41 EDT

From:  Naomi Nagy <nagy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNAGI1K.CIS.UPENN.EDU>

Subject: NWAVE schedule revisions, abstracts on WWW



(Sorry for duplicate mailings.)



The NWAVE homepage on the WorldWideWeb has been updated. Abstracts are now

available for perusal and a revised schedule has been added.



The address is: http://babel.ling.upenn.edu/~nagy/nwav



Please let me know if there are any technical problems.





Naomi Nagy



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 12:46:55 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: bizzing



Has anyone heard this word used anywhere other than in Utah county,

Utah?

The word _Bizzing_is commonly used here referring a pedestrian

hanging on to the back of an automobile while being pulled accross

snow/ice covered streets.









Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 13:21:38 -0600

From:  Bruce Gelder <bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMEL.SIM.ES.COM>

Subject: Re: bizzing



>Has anyone heard this word used anywhere other than in Utah county,

>Utah?

>The word _Bizzing_is commonly used here referring a pedestrian

>hanging on to the back of an automobile while being pulled accross

>snow/ice covered streets.



We called that "hooky bobbing" when I grew up in Davis County, Utah

(late sixties, early seventies). I've never heard "bizzing," even

though I lived in Utah County for five years (81-86). Of course, though,

I didn't do a whole lot of it anymore by then. :-)



Bruce Gelder

bgelder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]es.com



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 12:35:16 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Speaking the Same Language, Multiple SOC Model of Language



Tom Uharriet writes:



>It is tough enough to communicate within our own language. It is even

>tougher to communicate across languages.



Perhaps, in light of that, y'all might enjoy an excerpt from Russell

Hoban's _The Lion of Boaz-Jachin, Jachin-Boaz_ (a book I highly

recommend). I use it in my classes as an example of when meaning can

actually get through even when neither speaker recognizes it.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



    The van ... pulled up beside him. The large gentle face of the

driver looked out of the window, spoke as a question the name of a

channel port. Boaz-Jachin repeated the name, said "Yes." The driver

opened the door and he got in.

    In his own language the driver said, "I don't suppose you speak

my language."

    Boaz-Jachin smiled, lifted his shoulders, shook his head. "I

don't speak your language," he said in English.

    "That's what I thought," said the driver, understanding the

gesture rather than the words. He nodded, sighed, and settled down to

driving....

    "All the same," said the driver, "I feel like talking."

    "I know what you mean," said Boaz-Jachin, understanding the voice

but not the words. Now he spoke not English but his own language, and his

voice was more subtly inflected. "I feel like talking too."

    "You too," said the driver. "So we'll talk. It'll be just as good

as many of the conversations I've had with people who spoke the same

language. After all, when you come right down to it, how many people

speak the same language even when they speak the same language?"

    "After all," said Boaz-Jachin, "it won't be the first time I've

spoken to someone who couldn't understand what I was saying. And when you

come right down to it, how many people speak the same language even when

they speak the same language?"

    They looked at each other, shrugged, raised their eyebrows.

    "That's how it is," said the driver.

    "That's how it is," said Boaz-Jachin.



>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



Somehow, I can't read that without remembering something Whorf said: "My

own studies suggest, to me, that language, for all its kingly role, is in

some sense a superficial embroidery upon deeper processes of

consciousness, which are necessary before any communication, signalling,

or symbolism whatever can occur, and which also can, at a pinch, effect

communication (though not true AGREEMENT) without language's and without

symbolism's aid." (p239)



Linguistics is in dire need of an evolutionary model of language which

encompasses different states of consciousness (somatic, emotional,

idiomatic/formulaic and informational between strangers), all but the

last of which humans share with most animals. My own studies suggest to

me that an overlooked basis for these four types of language is to be

found in brainwave-rhythm levels (delta, theta, alpha, beta) of humans

and animals, which correspond as 'home frequencies' for the reptilian

brain, the limbic system, the lateralized right hemisphere and the

lateralized left hemisphere.

    In this system, any animal (including human) with a lateralized

left hemisphere for beta waves (reversed for some left-handers and

Basques) is going to have dynamic structured systems (such as phonology

-- or its equivalent in Sign --, morphology, syntax) common to human

language systems. The others are still language, but shared and not

particular to human language.

    I say 'idiomatic/formulaic' for the alpha/RH level because, as I

mentioned in a Linguist-List posting on speciesism, I claimed that the

definitions in our textbooks for such in human language (the meaning

cannot be gotten from analysis of the parts, but belongs to the utterance

as a whole: "He didn't have a leg to stand on, but nonetheless ran

circles around his opponents.") is almost exactly the same about what we

claim about the utterances of animals -- the meaning belongs to the whole

utterance, not its parts. Until now, because we put humans and animals on

different maps, we have not been able to see this crucial similarity.



This multiple states of consciousness model of language has the added

advantage of following tribal people's conception of human speech and how

it is different from the way the rest of nature speaks, as shown in a

"Cheyenne Tower of Babel" legend told me by Sakej Youngblood Henderson:

    "Long ago, men & animals & spirits & plants all communicated in

the same way. Then something happened. After that, we had to communicate

in human speech. But we retained 'The Old Language' for dreams, and for

communicating with spirits & animals & plants."

    This view of The Old Language is found as well half a continent

away from the Cheyennes in an entirely different language family. The

Wishram Indians believe that Wishram is their second language, their

first being the one shared by babies, coyotes, and shamans who speak with

spirits.



I could go on, but not unbidden. Does this make sense to anyone? Am I

speaking the same language as anyone else?



    -- Moonhawk



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 13:12:02 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Consonant Cluster Reduction



Of course, it's not like "ease of articulation" is an easy concept to

articulate in other than an ad-hoc manner.



On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Terry Lynn Irons wrote:



> This kind of final consonant cluster reduction is quite common in much of

> spoken American English. Various scholars have pointed to it as a feature

> of African American English Vernacular. It is a function of the basic

> tendency in language to move toward ease of articulation.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 20:29:04 -0400

From:  "Cynthia L. Moore" <CLM777[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: English Only



The discussion's gotten so polite over the past few days that I thought it

might be good to mix it up with the English Only topic again. I had my law

clerk look for some law review articles on the subject. He came up with

"Declaring English the Official Language: Prejudice Spoken Here." It

appeared in the Harvard Civil Rights-Civil Liberties Law Review, Vol.24,

1989. It's somewhat old, but the background it provides is good. It

includes an equal protection analysis of legislation introduced by Rep.

Norman Shumway (R-CA). (I believe someone had mentioned the English Only

might create eq.pro problems.)  The article opens with: "If English was

good enough for Jesus Christ, it's good enough for me!" (tongue in cheek) and

does not present a balanced view of the issue, but a strongly anti-English

Only position.  Nonetheless, it makes for very interesting reading.



Cindie Moore

Attorney at Law

Arlington, VA



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 21:39:36 -0400

From:  RACHEL A CALDWELL <racald01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: bizzing



I've never heard bizzing before.











                   Sorry Rachel Caldwell



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 22:17:55 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: English Only



Thank you for your post, Cindie. Two of my students will prepare reports

on the EOM for the final class session of my course in Sociolinguistics

this semester, and I'll add your cites to those I already have.



I'd be glad to receive other suggestions. And I'll be glad to post material

from my students later.



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 20:41:35 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?Gordon Bennett & PEW litzer



[snip]



> Jerry Miller

> Pulliam School of Journalism



Is that /PULL yem/ or /PEWL yem/?



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 20:59:42 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: ?Mice/Mouses (fwd)



I was doing software tech support in the early '80s when the first Mac

came out and popularized the electronic rodents, and although there was

initial flux ('mice' because it's regular, 'mouses' because 'mice' is

taken for living rodents already), but I'm pretty sure when the dust

settled, 'mice' won.



On Thu, 14 Sep 1995, Daniel S Goodman wrote:



> ---------- Forwarded message ----------

> Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 12:05:39 -0400 (EDT)

> From: David Stanley <dstanley[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]stewart.waynesburg.edu>

> To: stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU

> Subject: ?Mice/Mouses

>

> I've had two patrons stump me recently with this question: What is the

> correct plural term for the mouse that is used with a computer? The

> people I've polled seem to be equally divided between mice and mouses.

> Any input would be greatly appreciated.

>

> Thanks,

> David Stanley

>

> \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

>

> David H. Stanley              Phone (412) 852-3278

> Library Systems Administrator       Fax  (412) 627-4188

> Waynesburg College Library         email dstanley[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]waynesburg.edu

> Waynesburg, PA 15370

>



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Sep 1995 to 19 Sep 1995

************************************************





There are 41 messages totalling 920 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. ?Movie/T.V. dumb laugh ending (fwd)

 2. bilectal commercial

 3. Mouse/Mice=House/Hice (7)

 4. Pulitzer Prze (6)

 5. bizzing (3)

 6. irreg plurals

 7. budge

 8. add me to the discussion group

 9. Positive Anymore (3)

 10. Terminology of unexcused absences (5)

 11. tardys vs. tardies (3)

 12. plural of "tardy"

 13. no mishaps

 14. reasonably bizarre anymore! (2)

 15. ?Gordon Bennett & PEW litzer (2)

 16. SES in sociolinguistics

 17. A coinage worth keeping

 18. Going postal



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 23:10:33 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: ?Movie/T.V. dumb laugh ending (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 15:10:18 -0700 (PDT)

From: Kirsten Edwards <kirstedw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rain.kcls.lib.wa.us>

To: Stumpers List <stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU>

Subject: ?Movie/T.V. dumb laugh ending



Okay stumperites, here's one that seems pretty tough to me:



What, asks the client, is the stupid laugh everyone does at the end of nearly

every T.V. show/sit-com (and a few movies) at the very end? For example, in

Star Trek, Dr. McCoy makes some crack about Spock, crew chuckles,

end-of-show. He wonders, if, in scripts, they have a phrase for this,

such ask "Cut to the gerplax" or "finish with a gerplax" where gerplax,

of course is the stupid laugh everyone does &etc.?



Kirsten Edwards             E-mail to kirstedw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rain.kcls.lib.wa.us

Young Adult Librarian          Voice: 206-243-3490

KING COUNTY LIBRARY SYSTEM       Fax: 206-296-5045

Burien Library

14700 6th S.W., Burien, WA 98166



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 00:28:57 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: bilectal commercial



It just occurred to me that the jingle I hear many times too often on radio

commercials for the (regional?) discount electronics chain The Wiz, a.k.a. No-

body Beats the Wiz (I think that may be their official name) is bilectal. The

refrain--to a tune catchy enough to stick in one's head long after one wishes

one could evict it on behalf of worthier entries--goes like this:



  Nobody beats the Wiz

  (Ain't nobody gonna beat the Wiz)

  Nobody beats the Wiz

  (Ain't nobody gonna beat the Wiz)



A poor (wo)man's Rosetta Stone...



        Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 01:22:43 EDT

From:  Terry Lynn Irons <t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Mouse/Mice=House/Hice



We are just becoming too technological. The Kluge people can't keep

up with the Wired people and the Provincial people offer job opportunities

at cut rates.



Unfortunately, the Kluge people are the bureacracies around government and

education jobs (an entrenched crowd--is tenure REALLY a good thing?); the

Provincial people are providing 5 buck an hour jobs to people who don't

realize that the exchange value of their labor is greater.



Now exactly where does our concern about what is happening to the

mouse/mice irregular plural, the result of a Germanic vowel harmony

reduction rule (Yes, I'm practising for my spring HEL course!), place

us?



There is a change in progress here. It could be a regularisation

process, a function of a Wired crowd that does not abide anomalies.



Or it could be the result of semantic disambiguation.

"Mice" is the plural of "mouse1," the rodent.

"Mouses" is the plural of "mouse2," the whateveritisthing.



Works for me. The plural of "mouse2" in the computernerdcrowdi'vecometoknow

set is "mouses."



My question is, has anyone heard of "house" being pluralised as "hice"?



I've heard, without citation, that the British are doing this.



Can anyone verify?



Terry



--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 04:31:12 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: Mouse/Mice=House/Hice



> My question is, has anyone heard of "house" being pluralised as "hice"?



no, but i've heard a couple of times (in u.s. and south africa)

"spouse" being pluralized as "spice." i believe the use is self-

conscious, but the last time i heard it (sunday), it was said as if

everyone would automatically understand it--no special intonation

around it or anything. (friend telling his wife that getting their

kids spice should be a higher priority than becoming grandparents.)

the other time was on an invitation to a potluck "bring your spice",

so it was a bit more confusing (especially since none of the guests

were polygamists, as far as i know).



lynne

---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 08:29:03 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Pulitzer Prze



1. Last night on "Hudson Street" (don't ask me what it's about; I saw only the

last sever or so minutes) a character said "pyulitzer."



2. I realized that before yesterday I had never actually heard a live

person say "pulitzer".



3. SOME of us perceive "pulitzer" as a hyper-correction.



4. BUT -- all my Jefferson Co. (TN) students say "pulitzer."



Age-grading?



Go figure.



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 08:29:38 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: bizzing



>Has anyone heard this word used anywhere other than in Utah county,

>Utah?

>The word _Bizzing_is commonly used here referring a pedestrian

>hanging on to the back of an automobile while being pulled accross

>snow/ice covered streets.

>

>

>

>

>Tom Uharriet



When I was a teenager in S. A., Tex., my parents were always reluctant to

let me use the car. We never had ice, but my friends thought it was funny

to open the car door, hang on to it, and slide with leather soles on the

pavement as I stopped for stop signs. They called what they were doing

"skiing," I believe. I called it stupid.



I hung around with some real losers for a while who used to drive around in

a big old station wagon with a luggage rack on the top. They took turns

getting on the roof, holding on to the luggage wrack, and flopping over the

windshield onto the hood of the car as the driver applied the old-time

power brakes. I was too chicken to do such a thing and soon lost these

"friends." I want to say that they just called this "flopping," but some

of the informants are now dead not due to natural causes and I can't

confirm my memories.



This crazy game reminds me too of one I read about in a freshman paper. A

group of Georgia girls entertained themselves one summer by taking turns

holding on to windshield wipers and flopping across the hood of the car as

the driver swerved back and forth down lonely Georgia highways. One night

a car was passing an on-coming semitruck. The driver flopping another girl

drove into the ditch, and the flopper flew off with the wipers into a wire

fence. I don't know what the girls called the game. They quit playing it

after that incident.



Is my two-year-old daughter going to become a teenager too? Help.









Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 07:49:22 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pulitzer Prze



Did someone already ask this?



Are pyulitzer people also kyupon people? And, pulitzer people ku-?



I think I was a pulitzer/kup)n, and now I'm a pyu/kyu-

And I'm beginning to suspect that I palatalized "coupon" (a word

I rarely say, and haven't heard much) when I moved to a kyu

- area,

and have dragged the pulitzer prize along with it.



A student corrected my "between you and me" yesterday. "I guess you

were being informal" he said.

How widespread is "PREP PRO CONJ I"?



beth



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 08:55:15 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pulitzer Prze



>Did someone already ask this?

>

>Are pyulitzer people also kyupon people? And, pulitzer people ku-?

>

>I think I was a pulitzer/kup)n, and now I'm a pyu/kyu-

>And I'm beginning to suspect that I palatalized "coupon" (a word

>I rarely say, and haven't heard much) when I moved to a kyu

>- area,

>and have dragged the pulitzer prize along with it.

>

>A student corrected my "between you and me" yesterday. "I guess you

>were being informal" he said.

>How widespread is "PREP PRO CONJ I"?

>

>beth



I'm generally not a palatalizer, but coupon is a big exception in my pattern.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 09:26:57 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mouse/Mice=House/Hice



What can we learn from all these mouses?



I regard 'mice' in the computer world as an exception to the following

general rule:



GENERAL RULE: When an irregular form takes on extended, especially

metaphoric, meaning, regularize it.



Consider the following.



The bird flew out - The batter flied out. *flew out

The oxen pulled the wagon - They're a bunch of dumb oxes *dumb oxen



And on and on (including the relatively bizarre fact that if someone went

around sticking their thumb between a lot of people's legs up by their

butts, they would be said to have given a lot of 'gooses,' certainly not

'geese.').



Note that 'mice' was already waffling in an earlier metaphoric sense ('Be

men, not mice' ['mouses'?]), although, as with all good general rules there

are numerous exceptions (e.g., 'drove' in golf, 'froze' in sports).



Would a feature-based semantic analysis show which of these are most likely

to preserve irregularity or would such preservation more likely be based on

the phonological and/or morphological status of the item in question? Nice

project, huh?



Dennis Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 10:02:48 -0400

From:  Ellen Johnson <ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU>

Subject: irreg plurals



I don't think anyone has mentioned the Canadian (hockey? pardon my

ignorance) team the Maple Leafs.



A couple of weeks ago my 4-year-old son, after saying "flied" numerous

times and beginning to follow the model and say "flew", made an analogy

to cry and told me about someone who "crew" at his school.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 10:08:53 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pulitzer Prze



This pyulitzer person is also a kyupon person. And to me "ku:pan" is

definitely heard as a hyper-correction.



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 10:16:50 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: Pulitzer Prze



> Are pyulitzer people also kyupon people? And, pulitzer people ku-?



no, i'm a pull-itzer, kyupon person. always have been.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 09:20:05 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pulitzer Prze



> Are pyulitzer people also kyupon people? And, pulitzer people ku-?



I'm a pyulitzer/kyupon person.



> A student corrected my "between you and me" yesterday. "I guess you

> were being informal" he said.

> How widespread is "PREP PRO CONJ I"?



Without having any formal data, I'd say it's growing by leaps and bounds.

I hear it more and more often.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 09:21:31 CST

From:  Luanne von Schneidemesser <lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>

Subject: budge



Re Larry's comment that 'They budged' is not acceptable...



"They budged" is perfectly normal here in Madison, at least in the school

system. The first year my daughter was in school I tried to correct her on

this usage, but soon realized that all the kids in at least 3 schools here

use it, meaning they cut in front of us in line. I would have said "they

cut in", but now I also say "they budged".



Luanne von S



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 10:57:36 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: Mouse/Mice=House/Hice



> The bird flew out - The batter flied out. *flew out

> The oxen pulled the wagon - They're a bunch of dumb oxes *dumb oxen



it's not just that they're extended meanings, but that they have

been conventionalized to the extent that they have separate lexical

entries. let me cheat and point out what stephen pinker points out

in _the language instinct_: for "fly" in the baseball sense, it's

not an extension of the verb "fly", but a zero-derivation of the noun

"fly" (in baseball terminology), so since it is a new verb, it gets

regular morphology. the same applies to "goose". "dumb ox" is an

idiom which doesn't seem to get analysed at the morphological level

as being an irregular.



other metaphorical uses that are not lexicalized don't get

regularized. "we're an effective team of hard-working oxen (*oxes)."



the computer ate (*eated) my disk.

there are 3 men (*mans) left on the chessboard.

my table has four feet (*foots).

 (but: *?at the feet of mountains, flowers often grow.)



it seems for "mouse" that the computer meaning has for some reason

or other been associated with a different lexical entry than the

rodent meaning. my assumption is that the ones that get put into

separate lexical entries are just too different from the source

meaning to share mapping to the conceptual domain(s). computer mice

don't do any mousy things. mountains don't stand on their feet.



and as long as we're on the subject. i was reading _longman language

review_ no. 1 today, which is a pseudo-journal dedicated to promoting

longman reference materials. in an article about the british

national corpus it said that the corpus (which is the basis of the

_longman dictionary of contemporary english_) can answer questions

like, "which plural of mouse is more frequently used for the computer

sense?" (better phrased than that, though). so, presumably, the

answer to the original question can be found in the latest edition of

LDOCE, which includes frequency information. does anyone have this

who could check it out for us?



> And on and on (including the relatively bizarre fact that if someone went

> around sticking their thumb between a lot of people's legs up by their

> butts, they would be said to have given a lot of 'gooses,' certainly not

> 'geese.').



incidentally, this is not what i use 'goose' to mean. to me, a goose

is a many-fingered pinch at the bottom of the buttocks (i.e., at the

fold above the thigh). have i been improperly goosed in both senses

of the phrase?



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 10:59:53 -0600

From:  Larry Davis <DAVIS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WSUHUB.UC.TWSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mouse/Mice=House/Hice



Sometimes a little linguistic history can help. House and mouse (both /hus/

and /mus/ in OE) had different histories. /mys/ (the OE plural) came about via

umlaut. A dative (I think) /musi/ in IE got umlauted to /mysi/ in Gmc. Then the

suffix -i (which conditioned the umlaut) was dropped in OE. /mis/ came about

between OE and ME, when the high front round vowel got unrounded.And, of

course, blouse has still another history--although blouse-blice sounds kind of

nice.



Possible?



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 11:41:33 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mouse/Mice=House/Hice



Oops. My thunder was just stolen (*stealed), as it often is, by Lynne. I was

about to cite Pinker's discussion in Chapter 4 of _The Language Instinct_ too,

with his distinction between the "headless" cases (fly out, Maple Leafs, Walk-

mans, low-lifes, sabertooths, Mickey Mouses [= people promoting Mickey Mouse

regulations],...) and the metaphorical extensions. I can but second Lynne's

reflections on why _mouse_, whose technological use is a fairly dead metaphor,

allows the two plural versions we have attested. Other metaphorical extensions

seem (to me) to vary depending on how distant the metaphor is: Webster's 2b

'a timid person' for me can only pluralize as _mice_, and I assume the same

would be the case for anyone who, unlike me, is familiar with 2a '[slang]

woman'. But 3, 'a dark-colored swelling caused by a blow, spec. a black eye',

is different:

    The boxer had {?mouses/#mice} under both his eyes.

(Of course the latter is OK, if a bit unlikely, on the rodentary reading.)

Pinker has a nice discussion of why both 'Walkmans' and 'Walkmen' are so weird;

he notes that the officially sanctioned plural is 'Walkman Personal Stereos',

given Sony's fear of copyright dilution.

  For what it's worth, I've heard 'The batter flew out to right'; I don't know

if this represents a change in progress (perhaps speakers no longer treat 'to

fly out' as derived from the noun and thus as being headless). On the other

hand, the only comparative and superlative I can imagine for the positive 'bad'

--that is, BAAAAAD--are the regular ones:

   Michael Jackson may be baaad, but I'm even {baaaader/#worse}.

  As for gooses, I think both glosses--'[instances of]  sticking [one's]

thumb between a lot of people's legs up by their butts' and 'many-fingered

pinch(es) at the bottom of the buttocks (i.e., at the fold above the thigh)

[Lynne Murphy]'--fall within the extension. I'm not sure whether this is a

difference in the lexical entry or, as I suspect, a difference in method.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 11:22:48 CST

From:  Joan Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>

Subject: Re: bizzing



See DARE at bizzing.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 13:29:26 -0500

From:  Elizabeth Martinez <MARTINEZE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COFC.EDU>

Subject: add me to the discussion group



Please include me to the discussion group. martineze[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ashley.cofc.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 12:38:03 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Positive Anymore



I tried to explain positive anymore in my Descriptive English Grammar

class this morning, and some of the students were totally mystified.

At least one student never could figure out what the example sentences

were trying to say. The positive anymore rendered them meaningless to

her.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 15:23:55 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Terminology of unexcused absences



RE: Terminology for unexcused absences.



In California (70's), we _cut_ school. We were _cutting_ class. We

also called it _ditching_. Administrators said we were _truant_. In

some districts, _truancy_ officers went after repeat offenders.



In Utah (then and now), students and administrators call it

_sluffing_. A student may "get a sluff" if s/he is caught out of

class.



Outside of Utah, which states use sluff, sluffed, sluffing, or sluffs?





Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 19 Sep 1995 15:34:24 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: tardys vs. tardies



A student is marked tardy again for being late to class. Does s/he

ask, "How many _tardys_ do I have now?" or

   "How many _tardies_ do I have now?"



I see it in local print both ways. Neither is in the dictionary. Is

one spelling "right"?





Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 14:39:28 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: tardys vs. tardies



Tom Uharriet asks:



>A student is marked tardy again for being late to class. Does s/he

>ask, "How many _tardys_ do I have now?" or

>   "How many _tardies_ do I have now?"

>

>I see it in local print both ways. Neither is in the dictionary. Is

>one spelling "right"?



This hinges on the use/mention distinction (see Quine, at your own risk).

Both plurals are "right", but they're plurals of different objects. If 'tardy'

is a noun with the meaning of 'an instance of tardiness' or 'a record of an

instance of tardiness', its plural is _tardies_, as with virtually any -y-

final noun. If you're pluralizing not _tardy_ but "tardy", i.e. a notation of

that form, the plural will be essentially _"tardy"s_, although the quotes may

not appear. Thus more than one floppy (disk) is (or are) floppies, but more

than one "sloppy" or "crappy" will be "sloppy"s or "crappy"s, as in

     Teacher gave me back my paper with 8 red "sloppy"s scrawled on it.

     You use too many "lousy"s and "crappy"s in your speech.

The hesitation in "tardy" suggests that for at least some writers, _tardy_--

unlike _crappy_ or _lousy_--has become lexicalized as a noun.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 14:06:58 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: plural of "tardy"



Where I grew up (New York City) the question never arose, because

we were marked "late" rather than "tardy." Nonetheless, wearing

my copyediting hat for a moment, I'd vote for "tardies" because

"-ies" is the normal form for plurals of words ending in a consonant

followed by y, and "-ys" looks odd and causes me to stop and wonder

why the word has been spelled that way.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 14:54:35 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Positive Anymore



Natalie Maynor writes,



>I tried to explain positive anymore in my Descriptive English Grammar

>class this morning, and some of the students were totally mystified.

>At least one student never could figure out what the example sentences

>were trying to say. The positive anymore rendered them meaningless to

>her.



This is, I think, an interesting phenomenon, especially since others have

reported similar reactions in their own classes, and the particularly

vitriolic ire of prescriptivists confronted with this well-attested variant

form reinforces my sense that there's more going on than just unfamiliarity

with the occurrence of a given form with a given meaning. Obviously the

concept of positive anymore is not intrinsically difficult; it's pretty close

(while not identical) to that of 'nowadays' or even 'now', which don't seem

all that hard for speakers to master. Maybe it's the overlap between the

negative polarity sense and the unrestricted one, but I suspect that's not the

whole story. Nor is the occurrence of 'any' without any negation or other

operator to license it, since 'anyhow', 'anyway', and even "free-choice" 'any'

(Anyone can whistle; Anyone knows that) are all found in standard (majority

dialect) English. Does Labov or anyone else working with the sociolinguistics

of language attitude have an explanation for the bewildered or disgusted re-

actions speakers evince when confronted with "Anymore, I do"?



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 16:07:23 EDT

From:  David Bergdahl <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Terminology of unexcused absences



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783          <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX>

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



I never sloughed off a class. . . but played hookey; but then again, Long Island

where I grew up, was originally as Dutch as the the Hudson Valley [which I keep

seeing referred to now as the Hudson RIVER Valley--is this new?]



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens

"Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 16:36:16 EDT

From:  David Bergdahl <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Positive Anymore



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783          <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX>

To:   MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX



Labov does mention that positive anymore is strictly midland, and that northern

and southern dialect speakers respond with a "huh?!" He also notes that 90% of

the tokens of ANYMORE are found in complaints; if a person doesn't whine, s/he

doesn't use it!



Wm Labov, What Is A Linguistic Fact? which corresponds to "Empirical Foundations

of Linguistic Theory"



"Faced with a sentence like JOHN IS SMOKING A LOT ANYMORE they said they had

never heard it before, did not recognize it as English, thought it might mean

'not smoking', and showed the same signs of bewilderment that we get from

Northern speakers outside the dialect area. (34)



footnote to above: "See Labov 1972c for evidence of the persistent confusion of

non-ANYMORE speakers who revert to the wrong semantic interpretation of 'still'

even after many years of exposure to the anymore dialect." (35)



footnote 39 (34)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 13:51:50 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: no mishaps



>"I graduate in June, barring / borrowing no mishaps." Etc. Does

>anyone have any information?"



I'm surprised (PULL-itzer-like) that anyone uses 'borrowing' in this

context. But then life surprises me a lot. Could this have anything to

do, semantically, with 'borrowing trouble'??



 -- Moonhawk



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 13:58:18 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: reasonably bizarre anymore!



Natalie! It's the vowel of 'foot', not 'boot'! Nobody (I hope) says

"POOL-its-er"! No wonder it doesn't sound good to you!



On Mon, 18 Sep 1995, Natalie Maynor wrote:



> > Where I come from, we say /pyulitzer/. What do the rest of you say?

>

> "Pulitzer" to me definitely is [ju] not [u] -- same vowel as in a cat

> sound, not a cow sound.

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 16:37:49 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: reasonably bizarre anymore!



> Natalie! It's the vowel of 'foot', not 'boot'! Nobody (I hope) says

> "POOL-its-er"! No wonder it doesn't sound good to you!



I didn't say it didn't sound good to me -- just that I say it [pju].

Either [pu] or [pU] would sound unusual to me, although now that you

mention it, I realize that I've probably heard [pU] and never [pu].

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 17:48:31 -0400

From:  "Cynthia L. Moore" <CLM777[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: ?Gordon Bennett & PEW litzer



Just a note on "Gordon Bennett." I ran across it last night just by

coincidence in Made in America by Bill Bryson. The book is about the history

of American English. Bennett was an eccentric newspaper baron who would

"announce his arrival in a resturant by yanking the tablecloths from all the

tables he passed." In England, he became a celebrity because of this

behavior, and the expression "Gordon Bennett!" is used there by someone who

has just been drenched by an incompetent waiter or exposed to some other

indignity.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 15:13:50 PDT

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: ?Gordon Bennett & PEW litzer



I'd like to suggest that the exclamation "Gordon Bennett" has survived so long

because it has the same feel as exclaiming "God Dammit", but without the onus

of using a Name in vain. Particularly if Gordon is prounounced as one

syllable, Gord'n.



I know my sweet old grandmother would have used it, had she known of it.



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 18:10:32 -0500

From:  Vera Horvath <00v0horvath[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BSUVC.BSU.EDU>

Subject: SES in sociolinguistics



Dear ADS-L-ers,



I am looking for a very "orthodox" measurement of SES / social class for

the purposes of a sociolinguistic study. Ideally, what I would like to find

is a published questionnaire or a study where the questionnaire that was

used to assess SES is recoverable. I would also like to hear from you if you

have designed or used such a questionnaire for the assessment of SES and

willing to share it with me.



I would like to be able to say that this questionnaire (and the study) is fairly

typical of its kind, (i.e. of studies which use SES to assess social standing), so

that I can compare it with my own measurement of social class and see which one

correlates better with linguistic data.



Any ideas, suggestions?



Thanks in advance,



Vera Horvath

00v0horvath[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bsuvc.bsu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 20:39:15 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Terminology of unexcused absences



Just checked with our resident 7th grader (Hamden Middle School, CT), who

immediately volunteered 'cut' and after some thought (i.e. during a

commercial) came up with 'ditching a class' (of course that could have come

from a TV show), but when I asked him about sluffing (or sloughing), his

response was basically that of Natalie's students or Bill Labov's subjects

confronted with positive 'anymore'.  I guess 'cutting a class' is, like

'cool', one of those slang terms that seem to last forever (half a century,

anyway) without losing their status as slang. Permanent ephemera...



 Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 21:34:31 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mouse/Mice=House/Hice



Add to Larry's list the nickname of two or more Oregonians:

One webfoot, two webfoots

Fritz Juengling



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 21:39:35 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: tardys vs. tardies



Tom,

When I was in grade school, we learned the rule, "drop the <y>, add <ies>.

For years, when I was studying German, there were two "Germanies." Then

about 5 years ago, when the Germanies were reuniting, I saw nothing in

the papers except 'Germanys.' This violated everything I had ever

learned, both in English and German classes.

My first reaction to 'tardys' would be to say [tardIs]

Fritz Juengling



On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



> A student is marked tardy again for being late to class. Does s/he

> ask, "How many _tardys_ do I have now?" or

>   "How many _tardies_ do I have now?"

>

> I see it in local print both ways. Neither is in the dictionary. Is

> one spelling "right"?

>

>

> Tom Uharriet

> utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 22:45:00 -0400

From:  Al Futrell <awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOMER.LOUISVILLE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Terminology of unexcused absences



On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



> Outside of Utah, which states use sluff, sluffed, sluffing, or sluffs?

>

I have heard sloughing off ever since I can remember, but then maybe I

have been hanging with too many gamblers....and it was often a matter of

sloughing off a class to imbibe in some sport.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 22:53:12 -0400

From:  Robert Kelly <kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Terminology of unexcused absences



Forty years ago, Montana railroad workers were said to "slope" off, and

"sloping off" was their version of sloughing/sluffing. It meant both

absenteeism and lateness, as well as slack performance.



==================================================

Robert Kelly

Division of Literature and Languages, Bard College

Annandale-on-Hudson NY 12504

Voice Mail: 914-758-7600 Box 7205

kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bard.edu



On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Al Futrell wrote:



> On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:

>

> > Outside of Utah, which states use sluff, sluffed, sluffing, or sluffs?

> >

> I have heard sloughing off ever since I can remember, but then maybe I

> have been hanging with too many gamblers....and it was often a matter of

> sloughing off a class to imbibe in some sport.

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 22:52:49 -0400

From:  "Kevin A." <Ash2Ash[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: A coinage worth keeping



I have heard the term "beg-a-thon" quite a great deal. However, it is most

commonly used in a negative sense. (Most odd is that fact that the greater

instance of use come from my conservative friends.



Words for thought.



Ash2Ash[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 23:02:39 -0400

From:  "Kevin A." <Ash2Ash[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: bizzing



What you call bizzing I grew up in SE MI saying bumper surfing, or bumper

sleding.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 23:10:05 -0400

From:  "Kevin A." <Ash2Ash[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Re: Going postal



Perhaps this term "Going Postal" is used most by younger people. I have heard

it for some time. Although its connotation is quite serious, it is used in a

(dark) humorous sense. Since seeing it on this list I began to ask around to

see what reaction or understanding I could get from this.



>From 15 year olds to 30 year olds (I asked 10 friends in all) they all

understood the term. Some had never heard it, but could instantly understand

it if I said: "Tom was so mad, I thought he'd go postal on us." No question

as to what it means. But none of us would use it without a wry smile and lilt

in our voice.



Ash2Ash[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Sep 1995 to 20 Sep 1995

************************************************





There are 38 messages totalling 830 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. /k(y)upanz/

 2. Pulitzer Prze (2)

 3. /ku/ /kju/ and coupon (3)

 4. hice

 5. stupid laugh

 6. Mouse/Mice=House/Hice (11)

 7. ?Movie/T.V. dumb laugh ending (fwd)

 8. Positive Anymore (4)

 9. Geesed by Low-lives

 10. positive anymore

 11. Consonant Cluster Reduction/Busleft

 12. teeth/tooths

 13. Polygamists' wives

 14. LAGS (3)

 15. SES in sociolinguistics (2)

 16. Plural Proper Nouns

 17. Mouse/Mice=House/Hice (fwd)

 18. bizzing

 19. ? Comanche language (fwd)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:34:06 -0400

From:  ALICE FABER <faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: /k(y)upanz/



Beth Simon asked:



* Did someone already ask this?

*

* Are pyulitzer people also kyupon people? And, pulitzer people ku-?

*

* I think I was a pulitzer/kup)n, and now I'm a pyu/kyu-

* And I'm beginning to suspect that I palatalized "coupon" (a word

* I rarely say, and haven't heard much) when I moved to a kyu

* - area,

* and have dragged the pulitzer prize along with it.



Various people answered:



Wayne Glowka:



* I'm generally not a palatalizer, but coupon is a big exception in my pattern.



Bethany Dumas:



* This pyulitzer person is also a kyupon person. And to me "ku:pan" is

* definitely heard as a hyper-correction.



Lynne Murphy:



* no, i'm a pull-itzer, kyupon person. always have been.



Natalie Maynor:



* I'm a pyulitzer/kyupon person.



******************************************************************************



I'm definitely a "pull-itzer" "coo-pon" person. Didn't we have a go round last

year some time about the first consonant in _coupon_ and what it has to do

with more general /du/ vs /dyu/ palatalization? I definitely remember trying

to figure out the affect associated with /kyupan/, which sounds to me like

fingernails grating against a blackboard, I'm embarrassed to say. As best I

can reconstruct, I grew up in the NY area with /kyupan/ and then moved south

where I really didn't want to sound like a NY'er. (It was a revelation to me

to read about Labov's linguistic insecurity index and to realize that I was

being a typical NY'er when I didn't want to *sound* like a NY'er.)



So, I honestly don't remember whether I ever said /kyupan/. I suspect that

both pronunciations were around in my home town, a NY City suburb populated

equally by long-timers, ex-city people moving to the suburbs, and

Midwesterners working at corporate headquarters in the area. I remember

playground fights about which is right, _soda_ or _pop_, for instance. And, in

response to Bethany's intuition, I definitely don't feel as if I'm

hyper-correcting when I say /kupan/; I'm just selecting the existing alternant

that doesn't grate.



Alice Faber



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 22:14:52 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pulitzer Prze



On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Beth Lee Simon wrote:



[snip]



> A student corrected my "between you and me" yesterday. "I guess you

> were being informal" he said.

> How widespread is "PREP PRO CONJ I"?





You must look the spit an' image of Miss Fidditch! He was helping you

out in your "old-timers'" state.



Actually, he reminds me of converts to any religion. They gently help us

to remember the "basics."



Cheers,

tlc



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 20 Sep 1995 22:26:15 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: /ku/ /kju/ and coupon



Around here (Las Vegas) we have the most powerful union of all (step back

AFL-CIO, geddawdahere Teamsters!): the CULINARY union.



Each year the Nevada Language Survey conducts a survey on:

  /K[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]l/ (schwa)

  /KYUL/

  /KOO/ (/ku/ for those in the know)



Nearly every year since 1976 the results have changed. I suspect it is

due to the local television news broadcasters or the blue-jowled leaders

of the union who change every few months. But each year it has been

different. Almost each year.

Cheers,

tlc



On Wed, 20 Sep 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:



> This pyulitzer person is also a kyupon person. And to me "ku:pan" is

> definitely heard as a hyper-correction.

>

> Bethany

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:20:04 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood <dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM>

Subject: hice



Terry Irons asks:

> My question is, has anyone heard of "house" being pluralised as "hice"?

> I've heard, without citation, that the British are doing this.

> Can anyone verify?



I've heard "house" pronounced in Britain with a vowel shift that makes it

sound almost like "hice".



*\\* Anton                       Ubi scriptum?



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:20:23 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood <dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM>

Subject: stupid laugh



> What, asks the client, is the stupid laugh everyone does at the end of nearly

> every T.V. show/sit-com (and a few movies) at the very end? For example, in

> Star Trek, Dr. McCoy makes some crack about Spock, crew chuckles,

> end-of-show. He wonders, if, in scripts, they have a phrase for this,

> such ask "Cut to the gerplax" or "finish with a gerplax" where gerplax,

> of course is the stupid laugh everyone does &etc.?



tag?



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 02:26:48 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mouse/Mice=House/Hice



Have you noticed the increasing frequency of the use of -s- in the

plural of 'house'? Lots of people say 'housses' these days. People

from all over. I notice it on tv. Hice, no, housses yes.

You can plug this one into your problem too, Terry. Over the last 37

years of teaching I observed 'blouzes' give way to 'blousses' and now

the last one is going.    DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:38:05 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: ?Movie/T.V. dumb laugh ending (fwd)



The new Star Treks (TNG, DS9, Voyager) don't do that so much anymore, but I

know what you mean. As a side note, I do know that when there's something

technical/scientific in the script - but the scriptwriter doesn't really

know what it is - they write tech. That is, e.g., someone will say "The

tech isn't teching, and we need to tech the tech before it blows up."



I do like gerplex, however, and will pass it along to a friend who works on

the Voyager set.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:38:13 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: Mouse/Mice=House/Hice



I, too, have never heard hice as house plural, but have heard spice as

plural for spouse. It has always been done facetiously, though. It is

often accompanied by offsprouts as plural for offspring - but that's

another issue.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 00:38:19 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: Positive Anymore



>Labov does mention that positive anymore is strictly midland, and that northern

>and southern dialect speakers respond with a "huh?!"



There are only two people of my acquaintance who regularly use the positive

anymore - one from Arkansas and one from Oklahoma. From this limited

sample, I would have assumed it to be more southern rather than midland.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 02:36:16 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pulitzer Prze



Some time within the past two years I came across clear evidence that

'coupon' does not pattern like other palatalizations. That is, thre is no

implicational relationship. It's not in the Webster's Guide to

Usage, but I don't recall where. Both kyu/kupon and pyu/pullitzer

are mavericks, because the palatalization "rule" applies only to

-peripheral consonants.                     DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 06:06:41 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Positive Anymore



> There are only two people of my acquaintance who regularly use the positive

> anymore - one from Arkansas and one from Oklahoma. From this limited

> sample, I would have assumed it to be more southern rather than midland.



Almost all of my students who were mystified by positive anymore yesterday

are native Mississippians. I, also a native Mississippian, also do a sort

of double-take when I hear it. The first time I ever heard it was in the

late '60s when I was teaching school on the east central coast of Florida.

I found it fascinatingly "peculiar."

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 07:54:25 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Positive Anymore



Positive 'anymore' is alive and well in East Tennessee. I get the same

reaction in classes to a disc. of positive anymore that I do to a

disc. of "don't care to" meaning "don't mind." I.e., all natives

wonder why we are bothering to have a discussion about something

everyone knows, while all non-natives say, "Oh, you mean when my roommate

said last week tat what s/he really meant was ..." And the light

dawns.



Bethany Dumas

who doesn't care to discuss this topic anymore!



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:20:41 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Positive Anymore



Hopelessly old-fashioned dialectologist that I am in part, I would have

placed much of Arkansas and all of Oklahoma (except, perhaps, for its

westernmost parts) in the 'South Midland.' In my experience, however,

positive 'anymore' is more firmly established in North Midland rather than

South Midland areas.

Dennis Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>



>>Labov does mention that positive anymore is strictly midland, and that

>>northern

>>and southern dialect speakers respond with a "huh?!"

>

>There are only two people of my acquaintance who regularly use the positive

>anymore - one from Arkansas and one from Oklahoma. From this limited

>sample, I would have assumed it to be more southern rather than midland.

>

>Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:29:07 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Geesed by Low-lives



No, I didn't hear the words in the header, but I did hear a reporter on NPR

this morning say "low-lifes"--one of those regularized plurals we've been

tossing around lately.









Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 09:45:11 EDT

From:  Douglas Bayer x3701 3NW <dbayer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YUKON.HQ.ILEAF.COM>

Subject: Re: Mouse/Mice=House/Hice



On a PBS show listed in the paper as "Wolves and Artist" last night,

the narrator used both /wUlfs/ and /wUlvz/ in one sentence.



And the plural "dwarfs" has fully replaced "dwarves" in kid-vid.



Also, spelling aside, no voicing survives in "wolf's" "wife's" "life's"

etc. (By contrast, ME "-ende" /In/, respelled "-ing", is just

thrivin'.)



So what are young urban polygamists callin' their other halfs anymore?



--Doug Bayer



PS: Don't forget "moose/meese."





On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Donald M. Lance wrote:



> Have you noticed the increasing frequency of the use of -s- in the

> plural of 'house'? Lots of people say 'housses' these days. People

> from all over. I notice it on tv. Hice, no, housses yes.

> You can plug this one into your problem too, Terry. Over the last 37

> years of teaching I observed 'blouzes' give way to 'blousses' and now

> the last one is going.    DMLance

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 10:04:19 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mouse/Mice=House/Hice



Don writes



>Have you noticed the increasing frequency of the use of -s- in the

>plural of 'house'? Lots of people say 'housses' these days. People

>from all over. I notice it on tv. Hice, no, housses yes.

>You can plug this one into your problem too, Terry. Over the last 37

>years of teaching I observed 'blouzes' give way to 'blousses' and now

>the last one is going.    DMLance



Paradigm leveling strikes again. But there's one little datum of revenge for

the [+voiced] crowd: A linguist friend of mine insists she has always

pluralized 'housewife' [HAWSwayf] as 'houZewives' [HAWZwayvz].

 On a related topic, perhaps the unexpected palatalization of 'Pulitzer'--

which as some of us have observed was evidently pronounced PULLitzer by the

family--is a mere spelling pronunciation. If they'd just spelled it right,

even the most avid palatalizers would have curbed their instincts. I don't

think the linguist Geoff Pullum has trouble with anyone pronouncing his last

name PYU-lum, and I can't recall ever hearing about PYU-leys (as in ropes and

___) or, for that matter, PYU-lets (as in those surprising chickens).



 Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 10:24:09 +0000

From:  "E. W. Gilman" <egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>

Subject: positive anymore



You folks should check out DARE.



E.W.Gilman

----------------------------------------------------------

E. W. Gilman

Director of Defining

Merriam-Webster Inc.

47 Federal St.

Springfield, MA 01102



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 07:35:01 PDT

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: Mouse/Mice=House/Hice



Well, for completeness, since I haven't seen it mentioned, I thought I'd throw

in louse/lice.



For myself, knowing the mouse/mice relationship goes way back to the dawn of

learning to speak. However, the louse/lice association seems to have arrived

somewhere between the years of 10 and 15, and was quite a revelation. Until

that point the words were independent of each other.



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 10:09:53 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mouse/Mice=House/Hice



Hm. I do voice the f in "wolf's" and "wife's."



Also, "dwarfs" is at least as valid as "dwarves"; in fact, I believe

Tolkien included a note explaining his use of "dwarves" as the plural,

in one of the appendices to Lord of the Rings.



By the way, the young urban polygamists I know are calling their other

halves "spouses" (note regular plural) or "partners," but this is a

small sample.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:55:51 PST

From:  Jessica Sklar <sklar[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EUCLID.UOREGON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mouse/Mice=House/Hice



Hmm... kinda mysterious... Does the message mean "One webfoot" is the nickname

of one Oregonian, and "two webfoots" is the nickname of two? Specific

Oregonians, or Oregonians in general? My only guess is that it has to do with

the U. of O., whose sports mascot is the Duck... is this a possibility?



Jess



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 09:09:07 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Consonant Cluster Reduction/Busleft



how twisty!



On Mon, 18 Sep 1995, Donald M. Lance wrote:



> Some time ago I had a Black student who had attended a Catholic high

> school. He said the nuns would haze the Black kids by asking what

> Jesus did from the tomb. They knew they were supposed to give a one-

> word answer. Their consonant cluster reduction and prenasal vowel

> yielded a response that merited a sound slap across the hand with a

> wooden ruler. Ascend.        DMLance

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 10:13:02 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: teeth/tooths



On an animated dinosaur movies (Land Before Time?) there are repeated

references to sharp-tooths.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 12:31:55 EDT

From:  Douglas Bayer x3701 3NW <dbayer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YUKON.HQ.ILEAF.COM>

Subject: Re: Mouse/Mice=House/Hice



[Vicki Rosenzweig of New York, NY wrote:]

> Hm. I do voice the f in "wolf's" and "wife's."



Hm. One of *live's little mysteries...



Is your "wife's" closer to "wuh-aves" or "wah-eves"?

(Do you raise or center /ay/ before voiceless consonants,

but not in free syllables or before voiced consonants?)



Born to Eastun New Englandas but raised and educated in

Greeat Laeekes Cities, I have:



wife/wife's  |  wives/wives'  why/wise

[w[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ef]    |  [wa:Ivz]    [wa:I]

[w[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]efs]    |         [wa:Iz]



life/life's  |  lives/lives'  lie/lies

[l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ef]    |  [la:Ivz]    [la:I]

[l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]efs]    |         [la:Iz]



--Doug (Boston)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 10:49:45 U

From:  cbooth <cbooth[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SMTPGW.SIM.ES.COM>

Subject: Polygamists' wives



Out here in Utah where we still have 'em, young urban male polygamists who I

know say /wayvz/. So do the old ones, and so do the rural ones, regardless of

age. The wives are also polygamists-participants in what we quaintly

euphemize as 'plural marriage' are polygamists regardless of their gender.



C. G. Booth

cbooth[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]es.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:25:12 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mouse/Mice=House/Hice



The vowel I use in "wife's" is a diphthong, similar to but slightly

shorter than the sound (which is what I think is meant by your notation

a:I) I use in "wise" or "eyes"). (Note that this is what I'm getting

by pronouncing the words singly, not as part of normal conversation.)



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:04:13 -0500

From:  "Timothy C. Frazer" <mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>

Subject: Re: LAGS



I am doing some research with the LAGS volumes and need some help. I'm

not always sure about the LAGS phonetic notation:



"girl" <ur> --articulartory description of what this is?

March <r> is this a retroflex r? Or just opposed to r-lessness?

fog <{o}> open ?

rice <{ie}> ??????



More later.



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 14:00:01 -0500

From:  Vera Horvath <00v0horvath[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BSUVC.BSU.EDU>

Subject: SES in sociolinguistics



I apologize if this posting appears twice on the list. I sent the same

message out about 24 hours ago, and I don't know what happened to it,

so I am reposting.





Dear ADS-L-ers,



I am looking for a very "orthodox" measurement of SES / social class for

the purposes of a sociolinguistic study. Ideally, what I would like to find

is a published questionnaire or a study where the questionnaire that was

used to assess SES is recoverable. I would also like to hear from you if you

have designed or used such a questionnaire for the assessment of SES and

willing to share it with me.



I would like to be able to say that this questionnaire (and the study) is fairly

typical of its kind, (i.e. of studies which use SES to assess social standing), so

that I can compare it with my own measurement of social class and see which one

correlates better with linguistic data.



Any ideas, suggestions?



Thanks in advance,



Vera Horvath

00v0horvath[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bsuvc.bsu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:39:42 -0400

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr." <billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: LAGS



While LAGS phonetics are described within LAGS, some may find it easier

to read the stand-alone descriptions of systematic phonetics and the ABC

codes in JEngL 18 and JEngL 20, respectively.



Regards, Bill

******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English (Park 317)   FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Atlas Web Page: http://hyde.park.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:11:24 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Plural Proper Nouns



Fritz Juengling writes:



> When I was in grade school, we learned the rule,

> "drop the <y>, add <ies>. For years, when I was studying

> German, there were two "Germanies." Then about 5 years ago,

> when the Germanies were reuniting, I saw nothing in the papers

> except 'Germanys.' This violated everything I had ever

> learned, both in English and German classes.



Did that <ies> rule apply to proper nouns?

In a room full of people named either Wendy or Terry, do we have . . .

     six Wendies and seven Terries

   or, six Wendy's and seven Terry's

   or, six Wendys and seven Terrys?





Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:20:10 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mouse/Mice=House/Hice (fwd)



The following message is from Prof. Paul Coggle of the Univ of Kent:



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 08:43:09 +0100

From: pc1 <P.A.Coggle[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukc.ac.uk>

To: Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gold.tc.umn.edu>

Cc: P.A.Coggle[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukc.ac.uk

Subject: Re: Mouse/Mice=House/Hice (fwd)



Hi Fritz



`hice' as the plural of `house' is just

a joke and is rarely found in the UK,

because `hice' (singular) for `house'

is the way that the royal family

pronounce this word.



They have a `hice' in London (Buck Pal)

a `hice' in Windsor (Windsor Castle)

a `hice' in Norfolf (Sandringham)

and a `hice' in Scotland (Balmoral).



I hope this clarifies the issue

as far as theUK is concerned!



By all means pass this message on

to the uninitiated.



Cheers,



Paul



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:21:44 -0500

From:  Vera Horvath <00v0horvath[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BSUVC.BSU.EDU>

Subject: SES in sociolinguistics



This is the third time I am trying to get this message through. I apologize for

the eventual multiple postings, but there is no indication (for me that the

first two got posted.





Dear ADS-L-ers,



I am looking for a very "orthodox" measurement of SES / social class for

the purposes of a sociolinguistic study. Ideally, what I would like to find

is a published questionnaire or a study where the questionnaire that was

used to assess SES is recoverable. I would also like to hear from you if you

have designed or used such a questionnaire for the assessment of SES and

willing to share it with me.



I would like to be able to say that this questionnaire (and the study) is fairly

typical of its kind, (i.e. of studies which use SES to assess social standing),

 so

that I can compare it with my own measurement of social class and see which one

correlates better with linguistic data.



Any ideas, suggestions?



Thanks in advance,



Vera Horvath

00v0horvath[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bsuvc.bsu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 16:29:54 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mouse/Mice=House/Hice



On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, //www.usa.net/~ague wrote:



> Well, for completeness, since I haven't seen it mentioned, I thought I'd throw

> in louse/lice.



But there is also 'louses'= deadbeats.





> For myself, knowing the mouse/mice relationship goes way back to the dawn of

> learning to speak. However, the louse/lice association seems to have arrived

> somewhere between the years of 10 and 15, and was quite a revelation. Until

> that point the words were independent of each other.

>

> -- Jim

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:31:11 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: /ku/ /kju/ and coupon



I've heard both variants for culinary often enough, the first sy\llable of

one rhyming with "dull" and the other with "few"- but I've never heard one

rhyming with "too." Is this really common in Nevada?



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:41:31 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: /ku/ /kju/ and coupon



/ku/ is rare and seems to me to be a hypercorrection or

hyperurbanization. I've noticed it when someone is trying to be VERY

articulate in an interview or on TV.

tlc



On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Rima & Kim McKinzey wrote:



> I've heard both variants for culinary often enough, the first sy\llable of

> one rhyming with "dull" and the other with "few"- but I've never heard one

> rhyming with "too." Is this really common in Nevada?

>

> Rima

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 15:46:44 -0700

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mouse/Mice=House/Hice



The term Web-foot predates the U of O (founded 1876, if I remember correctly)

Earliest example in Dictionary of American English (Univ. of Chicago,

1938-1944) is from 1864 in the Oregon State Journal. Term is also used in

Nash's "Two Years in Oregon" (1882).

Seems to refer more to the high amount of rainfall than to anything else.

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu

Native Web-foot



On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Jessica Sklar wrote:



> Hmm... kinda mysterious... Does the message mean "One webfoot" is the nickname

> of one Oregonian, and "two webfoots" is the nickname of two? Specific

> Oregonians, or Oregonians in general? My only guess is that it has to do with

> the U. of O., whose sports mascot is the Duck... is this a possibility?

>

> Jess

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:15:41 EDT

From:  Terry Lynn Irons <t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: LAGS



>

> I am doing some research with the LAGS volumes and need some help. I'm

> not always sure about the LAGS phonetic notation:

>

> "girl" <ur> --articulartory description of what this is?

> March <r> is this a retroflex r? Or just opposed to r-lessness?

> fog <{o}> open ?

> rice <{ie}> ??????

>



The AAM Phonology to which Bill refers has the following about the

representations you mention.

<u> is the sound in Pederson's "putt"

<r> is "  "   "   "    "race"

(Syllabic r is <R> as in "batter")

<o> is the vowel in "pot" Definitely low central, not open back

<ie> is the dipthong in "pie" for those who have one.



LAGS phonological notation does not have the same degree of phonetic

gradation indicated in the LAMSAS work, as far as I can tell.



Terry



--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 19:07:58 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: bizzing



My friend from Chicago, linguist Ray West, knows this by the terms

flippin' cqrs or skitchin'.



On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



> Has anyone heard this word used anywhere other than in Utah county,

> Utah?

> The word _Bizzing_is commonly used here referring a pedestrian

> hanging on to the back of an automobile while being pulled accross

> snow/ice covered streets.

>

>

>

>

> Tom Uharriet

> utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 22:04:47 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: ? Comanche language (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:10:52 -0700 (PDT)

From: John Riffe <jriffe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]billings.lib.mt.us>

To: stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU

Subject: ? Comanche language



I have a patron who is looking for the Comanche word for vision? Any help

will be appreciated.



*******************************************************************************

John V. Riffe           "A library is not a luxury but one

Parmly Billings Library        of the necessities of life."

510 N. Broadway            -- Henry Ward Beecher --

Billings MT 59101

jriffe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]billings.lib.mt.us      Voice: (406) 657-8248  Fax: (406) 657-8293

******************************************************************************



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Sep 1995 to 21 Sep 1995

************************************************





There are 36 messages totalling 882 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. culinary excesses (2)

 2. teeth/tooths

 3. Positive 'anymore'

 4. acceptability/grammaticality judgments, please (6)

 5. Plural Proper Nouns (4)

 6. 'dental dam' (8)

 7. Conference: Atlantic Provinces Linguistic Association

 8. cunnilingus (3)

 9. acceptability/grammaticality judgments, please -Reply (2)

 10. Pulitzer Prze

 11. tardys vs. tardies

 12. Terminology of unexcused absences

 13. 'dental dam' (fwd)

 14. copy-ed re web usage urrl (fwd) (2)

 15. Gordon Bennett and friends

 16. cunning



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 00:06:48 -0400

From:  ALICE FABER <faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: culinary excesses



Tom Clark wrote:



| Around here (Las Vegas) we have the most powerful union of all (step back

| AFL-CIO, geddawdahere Teamsters!): the CULINARY union.

|

| Each year the Nevada Language Survey conducts a survey on:

|  /K[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]l/ (schwa)

|  /KYUL/

|  /KOO/ (/ku/ for those in the know)

|

| Nearly every year since 1976 the results have changed. I suspect it is

| due to the local television news broadcasters or the blue-jowled leaders

| of the union who change every few months. But each year it has been

| different. Almost each year.



Rima McKinzey wrote:



| I've heard both variants for culinary often enough, the first sy\llable of

| one rhyming with "dull" and the other with "few"- but I've never heard one

| rhyming with "too." Is this really common in Nevada?



Tom Clark wrote:



| /ku/ is rare and seems to me to be a hypercorrection or

| hyperurbanization. I've noticed it when someone is trying to be VERY

| articulate in an interview or on TV.



******************************************************************************



I can see I'm going to have to pay attention to how the CIA is referred to

next time I visit my parents; in the Hudson Valley (which, btw, is a non South

Midlands or any other kind of Midlands enclave of postive _anymore_), of

course, CIA refers to the _Culinary Institute of America_, training ground for

high-priced members of the union about which Tom writes. [[note for tourists:

it's in Hyde Park NY, near the FDR Library, and has several restaurants on

premises, so the budding chefs can practice...]] Now that I'm thinking about

it, I don't know whether I'd say /kyu/-linary or /kull/-inary (as in _cull_ or

_pull_, which have the same vowel for me); I can't imagine /ku/-linary.



Alice Faber



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 21 Sep 1995 21:47:00 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: culinary excesses



[snip]

Alice Faber writes:



 of course, CIA refers to the _Culinary Institute of America_, training ground for

> high-priced members of the union about which Tom writes. [[note for tourists:

> it's in Hyde Park NY, near the FDR Library, and has several restaurants on

> premises, so the budding chefs can practice...]] Now that I'm thinking about

> it, I don't know whether I'd say /kyu/-linary or /kull/-inary (as in _cull_ or

> _pull_, which have the same vowel for me); I can't imagine /ku/-linary.



Alice: Just think of all those pigeons in Hyde Park: coo-coo-coo! They

were all trained by the CIA. :-)



tlc



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:37:03 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: teeth/tooths



Only a month or two ago a 50-ish, EA, Chicago-born-and-raised Ann Arbor

woman said 'All my family are sweet tooths.'



For all the examples we have been discussing, I'm still not so sure that

Pinker's characterization covers the field, although I certainly recognize

the possibility of the idiomatic status of some of the 'folk' or

'performance.' I'd still like to see a little more careful analysis of the

processes (i.e., phonological and morphological status of the units

involved in each case). But where would we be without those sweeping

genralizations that us socio-dialecto-types can't follow up after and clean

up the mess. Sort of like the last guys in the circus parade, huh?



Dennis Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:33:16 -0500

From:  wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject: Positive 'anymore'



Tim Frazer's excellent collection of articles, _Heartland English_,

contains a paper on positive 'anymore' which is well worth reading. I

took issue with one or two points in the paper when I reviewed the volume

but it is a very good article nonetheless.



Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:38:55 -0500

From:  wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject: acceptability/grammaticality judgments, please



Would anyone care to comment on the acceptability or grammatically of

the following two sentences, either privately or on ADS-L?



1. Kim and Dale think that each other is the best.



2. Who does she think said ate the cake?



Just an answer with '*', '?', or 'OK' would be fine, but commnetary is

also welcome.



Thanks in advance. Bob



robert-wachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiowa.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:42:49 -0400

From:  Merri Lisa Johnson <mj906388[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Plural Proper Nouns



On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



> Fritz Juengling writes:

>

> > When I was in grade school, we learned the rule,

> > "drop the <y>, add <ies>. For years, when I was studying

> > German, there were two "Germanies." Then about 5 years ago,

> > when the Germanies were reuniting, I saw nothing in the papers

> > except 'Germanys.' This violated everything I had ever

> > learned, both in English and German classes.

>

> Did that <ies> rule apply to proper nouns?

> In a room full of people named either Wendy or Terry, do we have . . .

>     six Wendies and seven Terries

>   or, six Wendy's and seven Terry's

>   or, six Wendys and seven Terrys?

>

>

> Tom Uharriet

> utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu





Hi. I just wanted to add that I hate that crazy "change y to ies" rule.

As a matter of fact, I refused to observe it as an English major

undergraduate. Can we change it?



Merri Lisa

Ohio University>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:46:29 -0500

From:  wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject: 'dental dam'



What is a dental dam?



Note the following from Charles McGrath, "Empty Nest Blues," _The New

Yorker_, 9/18/95, p. 112:



"Or what would they [author's parents, now dead] have made of the safe-sex

display in my son's dormitory, featuring not only free dental dams and

instructions in dental-dam etiquette?"



I can somewhat imagine what it might mean, but I am curious to know the

facts.



Thanks in advance. Bob



If you know but are shy about posting to ADS-L, please let me know privately:



robert-wachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiowa.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:54:32 -0400

From:  Terry Pratt <TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA>

Subject: Conference: Atlantic Provinces Linguistic Association



The annual conference of the Atlantic Provinces Linguistic

Association will be held in Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island,

Canada, on November 10 and 11, 1995, co-sponsored by the University

of Prince Edward Island.



For program, abstracs, and registration details, contact Dr. Terry

Pratt, University of Prince Edward Island, Charlottetown, P.E.I. C1A

4P3. E-mail "tpratt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]upei.ca." Telephone (902) 566-0677.



Some program highlights:



THEME: MAKING LINGUISTICS ACCESSIBLE



FEATURED SPEAKER: Katherine Barber, Editor-in-Chief, Canadian Oxford

Dictionary: "SIN and Jambusters: What makes a Canadian dictionary

Canadian?"



OTHER PAPERS directly on this theme include "On Making

Linguistics Useful for Teachers," "Making Saussure Accessible,"

"Drawing Connections between Language and Film Music," "The Case of

Yiddish: Preservation or Revival."



YET OTHER papers are of the kind traditionally found at this

conference, which will visit the theme indirectly: "Historical

Evidence and the Verb System of Newfoundland Vernacular English,"

"Script Switching in Written Japanese," "The Control Parameter:

Evidence from Slavic and Romance."



AND SOME NEED NO EXPLANATION: "Stall Wars: A Gendered Comparison of

Latrinalia at York University," "Ms. Revisited: She's still a bitch,

only now she's older!", "Is McLuhan a Linguist?"



SOME SPEAKERS are from the region; others are 'from away': Toronto,

Ottawa, Quebec, Boston, Miami, Honolulu, Tokyo, and the Ukraine

(Valentina Skibina, "On Nucleus Vocabulary of English").



OTHER ASPECTS INCLUDE a round table on linguistics applied to

language teaching, a publishers' display, a BYOBAA table (bring your

own book, abstract, article), a banquet in the beautiful

Charlottetown Prince Edward Hotel, where the whole

conference takes place (includes terrific three-mustard sauce).



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:58:52 EST

From:  David Beach <BEACH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CMC.CZ>

Subject: Re: 'dental dam'



Bob Wachal asks:

> What is a dental dam?

>

A dental dam is a prophylactic device that can be used for oral sex

with either a man or a woman, but it's primarily used for oral sex

with a woman. It is made of latex and is anywhere from four to seven

inches square.



Another Bit of Trivia from David's Font of Knowledge





 + David Beach * Business English * Czech Mgmt Center

 + namesti 5. kvetna 2 * 250 88 Celakovice * Czech Rep

 + ph: +42 202 891441 fax: +42 202 891997

 + "That so few now dare to be eccentric marks

 + the chief danger of our time." - John Stuart Mill



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:12:30 -0400

From:  Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>

Subject: Re: 'dental dam'



>

> What is a dental dam?



Effectively it's a flat piece of latex used to cover the vagina

so that cunnilingus can be performed without exchanging body

fluids.



Jesse Sheidlower

<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:09:21 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Plural Proper Nouns



> Hi. I just wanted to add that I hate that crazy "change y to ies" rule.

> As a matter of fact, I refused to observe it as an English major

> undergraduate. Can we change it?

>

> Merri Lisa



Sure! That's the great thing about living languages!





Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:21:51 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Re: acceptability/grammaticality judgments, please



Bob Wachal writes



> Would anyone care to comment on the acceptability or grammatically of

> the following two sentences, either privately or on ADS-L?

>

> 1. Kim and Dale think that each other is the best.

>

> 2. Who does she think said ate the cake?



I don't know where conventions leave off and style begins.

I'm not sure what is meant by #2. For #1, I'd prefer,

   Kim and Dale each think the other is the best.







Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:30:00 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: cunnilingus



> >

> > What is a dental dam?

>

> Effectively it's a flat piece of latex used to cover the vagina

> so that cunnilingus can be performed without exchanging body

> fluids.

>

> Jesse Sheidlower



Cunnilingus? By the context that I see it in here, I can guess what

it means. But it's not a word I am familiar with. Is it in common

usage? Or is Jesse being inventive?







Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:56:14 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer <dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM>

Subject: acceptability/grammaticality judgments, please -Reply



Bob:



As an editor, if I ran across these sentences I would edit thusly:



1. Kim and Dale think that each other is the best.



Note that two meanings could be derived from the above:

Kim and Dale each think that the other is the best.

Kim and Dale like each other.



But of course, written English is not spoken English. In

conversation, I would find this acceptable and inflection would

indicate which meaning was meant.



2. Who does she think said ate the cake?



This one is harder for me to understand. Perhaps:

Who does she think said "ate the cake"?



Or is there an understood "you" here?

Who does she think that you said ate the cake?

(still not sparkling prose, but...)



If there's another meaning I'm not getting, please do explain.





Molly D.

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 10:55:22 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: cunnilingus



Not only is Jesse not being inventive, but I (and I think every other

linguist I know) am sick and tired of being called a 'cunninglinguist'

(which seems to be independently thought up by every 'wag' I meet.



For a while (perhaps even now?) this was helped along by the linguists at

CUNY (who, you guessed it, called themselves CUNYlinguists).



Dennis (who would even rather be asked how many languages he speaks) Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot,msu.edu>





>> > What is a dental dam?

>>

>> Effectively it's a flat piece of latex used to cover the vagina

>> so that cunnilingus can be performed without exchanging body

>> fluids.

>>

>> Jesse Sheidlower

>

>Cunnilingus? By the context that I see it in here, I can guess what

>it means. But it's not a word I am familiar with. Is it in common

>usage? Or is Jesse being inventive?

>

>

>

>Tom Uharriet

>utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 08:37:07 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Pulitzer Prze



THE INMATES ARE RUNNING THE ASYLUM !!!!



> > A student corrected my "between you and me" yesterday. "I guess you

> > were being informal" he said.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:57:09 -0400

From:  Jerry Miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: cunnilingus



I suppose this will show just how naive I am, but I thought a "dental dam"

was something a dentist put in your mouth to keep the area he/she was

working on dry and accessible. I have had such a device (fairly

uncomfortably, I might add)

used on me several times, and my dentist referred to it as a "dam." Given the

newer meaning that has been posted here, I don't know if I will ever be able to

accept that explanation again without laughing in my dentist's face.



Jerry Miller



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:54:25 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: 'dental dam'



Jesse's definition of "dental dam" is fine, but I'd like to add that

they were originally introduced for use in certain kinds of dental

surgery (hence the name), I think to reduce the risk of infection by

protecting an open wound in the mouth from infection by the dentist's

hand and/or to protect any microscopic cuts on the dentist's hand from

possible infection by the patient's blood. (My dentist wears rubber

gloves instead, which is much easier for me to deal with.)



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:31:13 -0500

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: acceptability/grammaticality judgments, please -Reply



On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Molly Dickmeyer wrote:



> 2. Who does she think said ate the cake?

>

> This one is harder for me to understand. Perhaps:

> Who does she think said "ate the cake"?

>

> Or is there an understood "you" here?



Perhaps it's just my natural cavalier approach to spoken grammar, but

this sentence made immediate sense to me. I read it as "Who does she think

said [he or she] ate the cake?", with the "who" doing double-duty

referring to the person who ate the cake and the person who said they ate

the cake--which would of course be the same person.



However, the more I re-read it, the more uncertain I get. It doesn't do

to think too hard about on-the-fly grammatical constructions.



Kate Catmull          kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:33:51 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: tardys vs. tardies



Fascinating, Tom! This is a direct analogy in *spelling* to the whole

discussion on mouses/mice in pronunciation.



The real sticker, of course, is why would a word like this resist the

powerful rule for a majority of cases, where y -> ies. What has

historically made writers hesitate here? Visual analogy to 'todays', as

in "All our todays are fleeting"?



What are some other, perhaps less arcane, -y words that -> -ys? Do they

form a class of some sort?



On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



> A student is marked tardy again for being late to class. Does s/he

> ask, "How many _tardys_ do I have now?" or

>   "How many _tardies_ do I have now?"

>

> I see it in local print both ways. Neither is in the dictionary. Is

> one spelling "right"?

>

>

> Tom Uharriet

> utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 09:42:43 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Terminology of unexcused absences



Definitely not Placerville CA (in the Sierras), according to my 18-yr old

language consultant, Melanie Alford.



On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



> RE: Terminology for unexcused absences.

>

> In California (70's), we _cut_ school. We were _cutting_ class. We

> also called it _ditching_. Administrators said we were _truant_. In

> some districts, _truancy_ officers went after repeat offenders.

>

> In Utah (then and now), students and administrators call it

> _sluffing_. A student may "get a sluff" if s/he is caught out of

> class.

>

> Outside of Utah, which states use sluff, sluffed, sluffing, or sluffs?

>

>

> Tom Uharriet

> utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 11:48:00 EST

From:  Electronic Products Magazine <0004276021[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MCIMAIL.COM>

Subject: acceptability/grammaticality judgments, please



Here is my assessment of Bob's sentences:



1. Kim and Dale think that each other is the best.

OK. There are two clauses: "Kim and Dale" is the subject of the first,

think the verb, that the conjunction before the second clause, each

other is the subject of the second and is singular, is is the second-

clause verb (a copula), and the best is the object. Of course, since

is is a copula, the last clause would be as correct, though awkward,

as "the best is each other."



2. Who does she think said ate the cake?

Something is missing here. "Who does she think" is OK, by the above

analysis. The rest is confusing: "Who does she think ate the cake?"

would be OK. "Who does she think said, `I ate the cake'?" would also

be OK. However, what function does "said" perform in the current

sentence?









Leonard Schiefer            lschiefer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mcimail.com

Chief Copy Editor

Electronic Products Magazine

Garden City, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 12:36:31 -0500

From:  wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject: Re: 'dental dam' (fwd)



Posted to the list at Lynne's suggestion

RSW



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:52:02 GMT + 2:00

From: M. Lynne Murphy <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za>

To: wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]blue.weeg.uiowa.edu>

Subject: Re: 'dental dam'



> What is a dental dam?



it's a sheet of latex that dentists use for isolating particular

parts of the mouth to work on. dental dams are used for "safer"

cunnilingus. one hears about them a lot in lesbian safer sex

workshops/literature, but one rarely hears of them in heterosexual

safer sex education. (draw your own conclusions.)



in the earlier days of safer sex education, dams were difficult to

come by, but now they come in various colors, flavors, &c. even

though the lavender or minty ones are not used by any dentists i've

ever heard of, they're still called "dental dams."



yours from the sexual underground,

lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 13:47:38 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Plural Proper Nouns



I'm not sure whether the plural of "Wendy" is "Wendys" or "Wendies"

but I'm sure it's _not_ "Wendy's": that's the possessive, and there's

nothing to gain by confusing the two.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:18:03 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: acceptability/grammaticality judgments, please



1. Kim and Dale think that each other is the best.



That does not sound like native speaker English to me.



2. Who does she think said ate the cake?



??? Doesn't make any sense to me.



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:26:00 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: 'dental dam'



 (My dentist wears rubber

gloves instead, which is much easier for me to deal with.)



--said Vicki.



I'm curious as to why Vicki finds gloves easier to deal with -- but of

course I would not ask such a personal question. I just want to comment

that when dentist all started wearing those gloves a few years ago,

,y highly competent and very droll dentist called them

"handoms" I discovered.



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:45:17 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: acceptability/grammaticality judgments, please



I've probably been too brainwashed by generations of syntax screeds to have

objective views of my own idiolect on this,

>1. Kim and Dale think that each other is the best.

but I do recall   that when I encountered the star that this always gets,

from "Standard Theory" treatments of reciprocals as clause-restricted (and

ruled out in subject position) to the Tensed-S condition of Chomsky 1973 and

its heirs, I never had any problems with the star. On the other hand, I've

also heard such sentences many, many times (always registering it in the back

of my mind) in informal speech. I assume it's used party because there's no

alternative "grammatical" way to say it except for the stilted "each think

that the other...", which gets written but, I wager, rarely spoken.



>2. Who does she think said ate the cake?

Interesting that respondents have taken this to be essentially a typo for "Who

does she think YOU said ate the cake?" or "Who does she think said 'Ate the

cake'?" I think it's quite impossible on what I assume is the intended

reading, 'For which person x, she thinks x said x ate the cake', as most syn-

tactic theories have no trouble predicting.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:57:16 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Plural Proper Nouns



OK, OK, this discrimination has gone on for far too long...



>>Hi. I just wanted to add that I hate that crazy "change y to ies" rule.

>>As a matter of fact, I refused to observe it as an English major

>>undergraduate. Can we change it?

>>

>>Merri Lisa



>Sure! That's the great thing about living languages!

>Tom Uharriet



What is this business about a 'crazy change y to ies rule'? The -ies plurals

are perfectly fine and well-behaved. It's that crazy 'change -ies to -y in the

singular--BUT ONLY SOMETIMES; the rest of the time leave it as -ie' rule. What

we really SHOULD insist on is not reforming the -y -> -ie/___ + PLURAL rule,

unnatural as it undeniably is. But just think how it would simplify our lives

if we just regularized the singular! That way we would all know that the

singular of 'tardies' is 'tardie'.



Best,

Larrie



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 12:00:35 PDT

From:  "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>

Subject: Re: 'dental dam'



Now that we know what to do with a "Dental Dam", who knows what we do with a

"Hoover Dam"?



To have sex with a vacuum cleaner, of course....



-- Jim



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 14:16:40 -0500

From:  wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject: copy-ed re web usage urrl (fwd)



              COPYEDITING-L Digest 1088



 -----------------------------



Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 23:09:24 -0500

From: "Keith Calvert Ivey" <kcivey[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cpcug.org>

To: COPYEDITING-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu

Subject: Re: "they" as the new gender neutral pronoun

Message-ID: <199509220307.XAA23057[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cpcug.org>



Jordana Kanee Signer <jkaneesigner[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inforamp.net> writes:



>Personally, I think that "they" should always take a plural

>verb. Other languages that use pronouns interchangeably as

>either singular or plural, depending on the context, always

>conjugate the verb in the plural. E.g. "Vous" in French is

>always conjugated the same way (root + "ez", e.g. "chantez"),



You don't need to go to other languages for examples. The

English pronoun "you" was originally plural only. Now it's

plural and singular, but the verb is still plural. I see no

reason to believe that "they" will behave differently if it

becomes standard as a singular. "They is" doesn't seem to be

catching on.



The only change I think likely with singular "they" is the

development of the reflexive "themself" (versus "themselves"

in the plural), parallel to "yourself".



Keith C. Ivey <kcivey[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cpcug.org>

Washington, DC

English Usage Page  http://www.webcom.com/kcivey/engusage/

The Editorial Eye   http://www.eei-alex.com/eye/



 -----------------------------



End of COPYEDITING-L Digest 1088

********************************



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 15:38:22 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: copy-ed re web usage urrl (fwd)



>>Personally, I think that "they" should always take a plural

>>verb. Other languages that use pronouns interchangeably as

>>either singular or plural, depending on the context, always

>>conjugate the verb in the plural. E.g. "Vous" in French is

>>always conjugated the same way (root + "ez", e.g. "chantez"),



>You don't need to go to other languages for examples. The

>English pronoun "you" was originally plural only. Now it's

>plural and singular, but the verb is still plural. I see no

>reason to believe that "they" will behave differently if it

>becomes standard as a singular. "They is" doesn't seem to be

>catching on.

>The only change I think likely with singular "they" is the

>development of the reflexive "themself" (versus "themselves"

>in the plural), parallel to "yourself".

Not just _themself_ and _yourself (sg.)_ but also _ourself_, for reflexives

whose antecedent is the editorial or royal _we_: "We do not consider ourself

above the law". Here again, verb agreement is obviously plural.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 16:09:42 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: 'dental dam'



I find gloves easier to deal with because they're only in my mouth

while the dentist is actually doing something, and only where his

hand is--it reduces the amount of rubber I have to deal with. (I

don't consider dentistry a particularly personal matter; this may

be a regional difference.)



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 07:17:56 -0700

From:  Mary Bucholtz <bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: Re: 'dental dam'



It's a small square of latex (sometimes flavored) that's used during

cunnilingus, to prevent the spread of disease. I think they're also used

by dentists, but presumably not for the same purpose. I've also heard of

"finger cots"--little condoms for the finger. The safe sex industry has

1,001 ways to shape (and name) latex.



Mary Bucholtz

Department of Linguistics

University of California

bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]garnet.berkeley.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 19:29:03 -0400

From:  "E. Wayles Browne" <ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORNELL.EDU>

Subject: Re: acceptability/grammaticality judgments, please



>1. Kim and Dale think that each other is the best.

This is ungrammatical for me, however I am aware that there are

speakers (I call them "loose each-other-ers") for whom the

use of "each other" in subject position of a subordinate

clause is possible. Robert Pirsig is one such person; you

will find a number of examples like this in ZEN AND THE ART OF

MOTORCYCLE MAINTENANCE.

>

>2. Who does she think said ate the cake?

>

Ungrammatical.



Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics

Morrill Hall, Cornell University

Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A.

tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h)

e-mail ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu (1989 to 1993 was: jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.bitnet //

jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.cit.cornell.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 19:03:24 -0500

From:  Nancy Dray <nancy_dray[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNEWS.UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Gordon Bennett and friends



            Subject:                Time:6:42 PM

 OFFICE MEMO     Gordon Bennett and friends       Date:9/22/95

Regarding ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM(Jim?)'s suggestion (Sept. 20) that "Gord'n

Bennett!" is used as an exclamation because it resembles "God Dammit!" I was

delighted to hear that his sweet old grandmother would have used it----which

led me to wonder also about his sainted aunt, and what sweet Fannie Adams would

say! More to the point, when I hear people say "My Sainted Aunt" and "Sweet

Fannie(y?) Adams" on those British PBS shows, do they mean what I think they

mean? I always thought these shared initials with exclamations that they

bowdlerized, but for the former at least OED seems to imply not. Cf. also

"CHI-huahua!" as an exclamation in Mexico, to resemble various other

exclamations that would start out with "CHI-" but end differently.

Enlightenment appreciated.

  --Nancy L. Dray, n-dray[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 21:36:01 -0400

From:  Ellen Johnson <ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU>

Subject: cunning



Aw, come on, Dennis. Me, I always thought it would be kinda neat to have

a bumper sticker that said "linguists use their tongues".



Ellen, who had to settle for How Bout Them Dawgs instead



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Sep 1995 to 22 Sep 1995

************************************************





There are 17 messages totalling 440 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Plural Proper Nouns

 2. menu (2)

 3. cunning

 4. One more judgment please (5)

 5. X-Post from LINGUIST: Lang Policy

 6. acceptability/grammaticality judgments, please (2)

 7. Mouse/Mice=House/Hice

 8. Gen Ed Linguistics (3)

 9. Could I please ask...



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Sep 1995 00:06:35 -0400

From:  Virginia Clark <vpclark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: Plural Proper Nouns



    But there are usually (often?) exceptions, which we tend to forget.



At 03:11 PM 9/21/95 MST, you wrote:

>Fritz Juengling writes:

>

>> When I was in grade school, we learned the rule,

>> "drop the <y>, add <ies>. For years, when I was studying

>> German, there were two "Germanies." Then about 5 years ago,

>> when the Germanies were reuniting, I saw nothing in the papers

>> except 'Germanys.' This violated everything I had ever

>> learned, both in English and German classes.

>

>Did that <ies> rule apply to proper nouns?

>In a room full of people named either Wendy or Terry, do we have . . .

>     six Wendies and seven Terries

>   or, six Wendy's and seven Terry's

>   or, six Wendys and seven Terrys?

>

>

>Tom Uharriet

>utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu

>

>

    Most handbooks used in first year English classes (e.g., the

_Harbrace College Handbook_) tuck away somewhere the information that the

plural of proper names (I think they mean nouns) ending in _y_ are formed by

adding just _s_. The old edition (the tenth) that I have gives as examples

"the Dudleys and the Berrys." Students don't notice this, and I keep

forgetting it.



Virginia Clark

University of Vermont

<vpclark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]moose.uvm.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 22 Sep 1995 21:42:23 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: menu



In the local paper a while back, there was mention of the menu at the

Radisson Hotel in Santa Fe, wherein the dining room featured a "Prefix

Dinner."



Presumably they sell subs, but what else?



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Sep 1995 08:18:40 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: cunning



Aw, come on, Ellen. I'm sure you know that I object to it only becuase I'm

tired of it, not because of prudishness. In fact, I own a t-shirt (from the

not-so-long-ago Arizona LSA Institute) which bears the slogan 'Linguists Do

It Orally.' Not quite what you want, but close. I think, however, it was

not the official Institute shirt, but one my class prepared for me.



While I am on this matter, does anyone recall seeing an extensive list of

'X's do it Y-ly' (when that trope was popular not so long ago)? I have a

vague memory of a huge list, but have repressed it and would now like to

find it. (These are distinct from 'Tom Swifties,' of course, which are more

ancient. [E.g., '"I can't remember that list," Dennis said, forgetfully.')



Dennis Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>





Aw, come on, Dennis. Me, I always thought it would be kinda neat to have

>a bumper sticker that said "linguists use their tongues".

>

>Ellen, who had to settle for How Bout Them Dawgs instead



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Sep 1995 10:32:00 -0500

From:  wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject: One more judgment please



Anyone care to comment on the acceptability/grammaticality of



    Who do you believe Daria said left early?



Again, just * ? or OK would be fine, but if you can't resist comment...



Thanks in advance.



Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Sep 1995 09:32:01 -0700

From:  Sylvia Swift <madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: X-Post from LINGUIST: Lang Policy



i decided to cross-post this from LINGUIST, since many of you seem to be

interested in english-only legislation, linguistic "child abuse," etc.



sylvia swift

madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu

---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 23:41:56 -0500

From: The Linguist List <linguist[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tam2000.tamu.edu>

To: Multiple recipients of list LINGUIST <LINGUIST[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU>

Subject: 6.1293, Qs: Syntactic Particle,Applied Ling,Lang Policy,Questionnaire



---------------------------------------------------------------------------

LINGUIST List: Vol-6-1293. Thu Sep 21 1995. ISSN: 1068-4875. Lines: 162

Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 22:04:11 +0200

From: shimizu[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]let.kumamoto-u.ac.jp

Subject: Linguistic Human Rights



   Dear Linguists!



   I am posting this for one of my final year students, who is writing

   her dissertation on the global situation concerning Linguistic Human

   Rights. Please address your replies to me.



   K. Shimizu: shimizu[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]let.kumamoto-u.ac.jp



   -------------------------------------------------------------------



   I am a student working for my dissertation on linguistic human rights.

   My supervisor showed me some of your articles on this topic, and I

   have found them very interesting. So, if anybody could be so kind to

   offer any current information in his/her country, it would be greatly

   appreciated. I will post a summary, when I have got sufficient number

   of replies.

   I look forward to your quick, and many many replies.

   Thank you very much.



   Aine Ono



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Sep 1995 12:02:03 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: acceptability/grammaticality judgments, please



Could it be that "Kim and Dale think that each other is the best" is an

example of a "performance error"? That is, it's sort of anacoluthal.

One would have to have more than one instance of this sentence from the

utterer to make a proper generalization, but it is possible that the

speakeris tooling along in the sentence and gets to "each" and says

"other" somewhat automatically. Then it's too much trouble to back up

and self-correct.      What I'm suggesting might apply to some

people but not necessarily to others. I think I might produce it as

what I would, post hoc, term an anacoluthon.



So far no one has commented on the obvious gaffe that Miss Fidditch would

jump on: One uses 'better' in comparisons of two, 'best' is appropriate

only when there are at least three persons to compare.



And another schoolbook matter: With three we use 'one another' rather

than 'each other'. So there's something strange and strained about this

"lexical item" to begin with.



The other sentence in the original posting (Who does she think said ate the

cake) violates Wh-movement in my grammar, though of course I can do

a Reed-Kellog diagram of the sentence and understand it.  DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Sep 1995 10:20:31 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Mouse/Mice=House/Hice



Nice posting, Donald. I checked with my 18 yr old and while she can go

either way on houzes/housses, absolutely no way with blouzes (Northern

California).



On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Donald M. Lance wrote:



> Have you noticed the increasing frequency of the use of -s- in the

> plural of 'house'? Lots of people say 'housses' these days. People

> from all over. I notice it on tv. Hice, no, housses yes.

> You can plug this one into your problem too, Terry. Over the last 37

> years of teaching I observed 'blouzes' give way to 'blousses' and now

> the last one is going.    DMLance

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Sep 1995 13:43:45 -0400

From:  "H Stephen STRAIGHT (Binghamton University,

     SUNY)" <sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: acceptability/grammaticality judgments, please



On Sat, 23 Sep 1995, Donald M. Lance wrote:

> speakeris tooling along in the sentence and gets to "each" and says

> "other" somewhat automatically. Then it's too much trouble to back up

...

> jump on: One uses 'better' in comparisons of two, 'best' is appropriate

> only when there are at least three persons to compare.



Until Donald M. Lance's posting came through it hadn't occurred to me

that, regardless of grammaticality or acceptability judgments, anyone

would think that "Kim and Dale think that each other is the best" meant

anything other than that Kim thinks Dale is the best and Dale thinks Kim

is the best. Donald, however, appears to believe that, rather than

describing a Kim and Dale Mutual Admiration Society, the utterance might

be a mangled way of expressing the belief that Kim thinks she is better

than Dale and Dale thinks that she is better than Kim! Is this what you

meant to say, Donald? If so, I strongly doubt that anyone would ever come

out with that sentence on the basis of that propositional intention. Do

we have any data on instances of "each other" and "best" that would

support Donald's interpretation?



    Best.          'Bye.         Steve

signature =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

H Stephen STRAIGHT        LxC      Binghamton University (SUNY)

Assoc Prof, Anthro and Ling        Box 6000, Binghamton NY 13902-6000

Dir, Langs Across the Curriculum    Tel: 607-777-2824  Fax: 607-777-2889

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Sep 1995 14:24:46 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: One more judgment please



Re:



" Who do you believe Daria said left early?"



--sounds okay to me.



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Sep 1995 16:04:09 -0400

From:  Virginia Clark <vpclark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: One more judgment please



    For me, it's a ? (I can resist commenting).



At 10:32 AM 9/23/95 -0500, you wrote:

>Anyone care to comment on the acceptability/grammaticality of

>

>    Who do you believe Daria said left early?

>

>Again, just * ? or OK would be fine, but if you can't resist comment...

>

>Thanks in advance.

>

>Bob Wachal

>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Sep 1995 18:16:14 EDT

From:  Terry Lynn Irons <t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Gen Ed Linguistics



I posted this request on LINGUIST last week, but I didn't get the

kind of response that will be extremely helpful. Some people on

LINGUIST (among the top ten lists globally) just don't read anything

other than job and conference announcements! Really missing out on

some interesting threads. (I know, we don't have time for everything.)



So I am asking this crew, who are really a group I identify with more

even if they don't identify with me.



We are currently undergoing gen ed reform at our university, and some

of my colleagues and I want to propose linguistics courses to satisfy

general education area requirements. We are thinking of an intro

linguistics/human language as a humanities and/or natural science

elective and a language&society/language&culture course as a social

science elective.



What will help our efforts is information about programs across the country

that include similar courses in some way in general education requirement/

electives. So could those of you who know of or participate in programs

that include linguistics in general education please send information about

your course/program to me?  I would appreciate information not only on

the nature of the course but also on the nature of the gen ed program and

how the linguistics course fits in.



If memory serves me correctly (and it usually does but it just doesn't

give me the details), the question was discussed last spring. Can someone

point me to the correct archives?





I know that Univ of Colorado, Ohio State, and Carnegie Mellon include

linguistics in gen ed. Does anyone know details?



Terry

--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Sep 1995 18:25:44 -0400

From:  "Alfred F. Rosa" <arosa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: menu



Our local eatery proudly advertised their special

Monte Crisco sandwich!







^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^

Professor Alfred Rosa         ||

Department of English         ||

P.O. Box 54030             ||

University of Vermont         ||  "The limits of my language

Burlington, VT 05405-0114       ||   mean the limits of my

Telephone: 802-656-4139        ||   world."

Fax: 802-656-3055           ||

e-mail: arosa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]moose.uvm.edu      ||      --Ludwig Wittgenstein

Prodigy: kgdx32a            ||

AOL: Sassari              ||



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Sep 1995 17:39:40 EST

From:  Beth Lee Simon <simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Gen Ed Linguistics



Dear Terry,



Our one hundred level (although anyone seems able to take it) Introduction

The Study Of Language was approved for our GenEd. You can contact me

about it if you like.



beth simon

indiana university-purdue university at fort wayne



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Sep 1995 18:44:11 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Gen Ed Linguistics



We (U of TN, Knoxville) do not have a Gen Ed progam by that -- or, so far

as I am aware, any other --name. However, our very popular

Ling 200, Language, Linguistics & Society, carries distributional

credit as a social science course.



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Sep 1995 18:51:58 EDT

From:  Terry Lynn Irons <t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: One more judgment please



These sentences are all prototypical of strings that have been the

basis for recent concerns in GB or PP or whatever you call it, which

support the various government and binding principles. Reminds me

of the Specified Subject Constraint argument that Chomsky used to

try to prove Piaget's view of how language is acquired is wrong in the

famous debate.



My response is, I am not going to be a test subject for your test, unless

you tell me what your purpose is. It's the informed consent thing,

which my institution's IRB is giving me a lot of crap about, even

though I point out to them that US Code regulations exempt this kind

of survey/interview from regulation. But that's another battle.



Some of them I think are not anything someone would utter. The

acquisition question is, what is the source of the language knowledge

that leads the language learner to conclude that these sentences are

ungrammatical. Certainly, there is no evidence in the environment

or stimulus. Thus we have the poverty of stimulus argument. SO

we must posit some innate principles.



Wrong question. The acquisition problem is not one of why a learner

does not do something, but one of what motivates

the learner to do what she does. The learner would never produce

these utterances because no one uses them. That simple. Has nothing

to do with a biological endowment ruling them out.



I am not ruling out a biological organ for language, an LAD.

I am only questioning what Chomsky thinks is part of it.



For all of his insights, he is wrong on this point.



Terry



PS: I think Dan Slobin agrees.



--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Sep 1995 21:38:15 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: One more judgment please



>Who do you believe Daria said left early?



Fine for me, in the sense that it's grammatical. Whether I'd ever utter a

sentence of this form when I wasn't just using it to get my students

to work on deriving wh-questions--in GB or GPSG or whatever--is another

question.



Larry Horn



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Sep 1995 22:12:17 EDT

From:  RENEA C BEELER <rcbeel01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Could I please ask...



...what the advantages would be if Lig. would be a requirement?? The point

would be...? (okay, T. Irons, don't go off on me :-) Although I haven't

taken Lig. ( I might in the next couple of semesters), I just don't see the

point of requiring another English course.



R.

--



    ________________________________  __________________________

                     |   "Two men walking up a

    Renea Beeler          --|--  hill, one disappears,

    rcbeel01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu |  and one's left standing

    Morehead State University    |   still. I wish We'd all

                     | been ready."--Larry Norman

    --------------------------------  --------------------------



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Sep 1995 to 23 Sep 1995

************************************************





There are 15 messages totalling 408 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Could I please ask... (7)

 2. Help! What's fluming?

 3. regularized plurals

 4. Gen Ed Linguistics

 5. acceptability/grammaticality judgments, please (2)

 6. ? Comanche language (fwd)

 7. Plural Proper Nouns

 8. acceptability/grammaticality judgments



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Sep 1995 00:00:39 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Could I please ask...



What do we mwan by "Lig."??? (Ling.?)



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Sep 1995 00:26:41 -0400

From:  "E. Wayles Browne" <ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORNELL.EDU>

Subject: Help! What's fluming?



For a refugee who is under a doctor's care, I am translating a "Sodium-

restricted diet plan" from English to Bosnian. It runs in part:



"List I: foods with low sodium content.

....

List II: foods with moderate sodium content--These foods must be limited

in amounts as specified.

...

*Meat/fish/fowl (other than those in List III)--Limit to 6 oz. cooked weight

daily.

...

[the footnote says:] *Fresh crab, lobster, shrimp, scallops, brains,

kidneys, and frozen fish which have been flumed in brine contain higher

amounts of sodium than other fresh meats. These foods should be chosen

infrequently.



List III: foods with high sodium content--These foods should be avoided.

..."



Can anyone tell me what "flumed in brine" means? And what does it modify

in the sentence--just the fish[es], or also the fresh crab, lobster, ...

kidneys?



Many thanks for all suggestions.

Wayles





Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics

Morrill Hall, Cornell University

Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A.

tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h)

e-mail ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu (1989 to 1993 was: jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.bitnet //

jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.cit.cornell.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Sep 1995 00:18:30 EDT

From:  RENEA C BEELER <rcbeel01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: Could I please ask...



>

> What do we mwan by "Lig."??? (Ling.?)

>

> Bethany Dumas

>

    yes, I can't spell so I abbreviate. (Lingistics)





--



    ________________________________  __________________________

                     |   "Two men walking up a

    Renea Beeler          --|--  hill, one disappears,

    rcbeel01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu |  and one's left standing

    Morehead State University    |   still. I wish We'd all

                     | been ready."--Larry Norman

    --------------------------------  --------------------------



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 23 Sep 1995 22:25:14 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood <dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM>

Subject: regularized plurals



> And the plural "dwarfs" has fully replaced "dwarves" in kid-vid.



Didn't Tolkien write that he used "dwarves" in place of the standard

"dwarfs", to help distance them from the cute dwarfs of fairytales?



*\\* Anton                       Ubi scriptum?



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Sep 1995 09:44:17 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Gen Ed Linguistics



Terry,



Sorry I didn't answer your earlier request on LINGUIST. I was out of town.



General Education Linguistics at MSU



A few years ago, the College of Arts and Letters at Michigan State

Univertisty started a Center for Integrative Studies in the Arts and

Humanities (parallel to Centers in other Colleges). Part of the 'mandate'

for these Centers was to provide a series of General Education courses

(options and requirements). The full general education requirements are

relatively arcane, but one of the options for a '2nd-level' course in the

Arts and Humanities area (to be taken after the 'basic' course, essentially

one in history) is one called 'Themes and Issues: Roles of Language in

Society.' It has been fully enrolled (300 students) every semester it has

been offered (now in its third year), a perhaps surprising fact since it is

one of several courses students might select.



The course meets twice a week for lectures and films or other activities

appropriate to the entire group and once a week in sections of 25 with 3

TA's (12 sections, 4 per TA) for discussion and for group and individual

'collection projects.'



The course 'belongs' to the Center but was proposed and is staffed by

Linguistics faculty, and the TA's are Linguistics graduate students.



The course is also identified as one which helps meet a requirement that

some of the general ed courses taken have a multicultural component.



Within Linguistics, we distinguish between a general survey 'Into to

Language' and an 'Into to Linguistics.' The former, although it does not

satisfy the specific general education requirements of the Centers courses,

can be used for various elective plans and is popular. (We usually offer

two sections per semester, and each easily reaches 50 or more enrollment. A

quarter- or half-time TA is assigned to each faculty member who teaches

this course.)



It is, by the way, simply an accident of history that Linguistics at MSU is

in the College of Arts and Letters.



Hope this helps.



Dennis Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Sep 1995 09:22:41 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: acceptability/grammaticality judgments, please



I doubt that anyone would interpret "Kim and Dale think each other is best"

saying that Kim thinks Dale is best and Dale thinks Kim is best. The

word 'other' accomplishes that meaning. The meaning that Stephen Straight

thought I might have had in mind would derive from "Kim and Dale think

each is best." (Or substitute the word 'better' to please old-fashioned

English teachers, a matter that is totally irrelevant to the discussion at

hand.) I doubt that anyone would not understand reciprocality in 'each

other'.



Import the "singular they" into the sentence and see the result:

Kim and Dale think they're best. / Kim and Dale think they're better than the

other. / Kim and Dale each think they're best / better. Ambiguity galore.DML



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Sep 1995 10:06:27 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: ? Comanche language (fwd)



Since, technically speaking, Native American languages do not 'naturally'

emphasize nouns (unless specifically asked for a translation, which 'can'

be done), you might be better off searching for a Comanche word for 'seeing'.



On Thu, 21 Sep 1995, Daniel S Goodman wrote:



> ---------- Forwarded message ----------

> Date: Thu, 21 Sep 1995 13:10:52 -0700 (PDT)

> From: John Riffe <jriffe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]billings.lib.mt.us>

> To: stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU

> Subject: ? Comanche language

>

> I have a patron who is looking for the Comanche word for vision? Any help

> will be appreciated.

>

> *******************************************************************************

> John V. Riffe           "A library is not a luxury but one

> Parmly Billings Library        of the necessities of life."

> 510 N. Broadway            -- Henry Ward Beecher --

> Billings MT 59101

> jriffe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]billings.lib.mt.us      Voice: (406) 657-8248  Fax: (406) 657-8293

> ******************************************************************************

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Sep 1995 13:15:15 -0400

From:  RACHEL A CALDWELL <racald01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: Plural Proper Nouns



I do not believe this rule was meant for proper nouns! That is a good

question. Rachel Caldwell



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Sep 1995 10:25:11 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: acceptability/grammaticality judgments, please



Why does this remind me of the good-old days of the early '60s at UCLA,

heyday of the Air Force Syntax Project, when in the fervor of filling out

the Chomskyan paradigm the grad students would gather around the natural-

gas-fed-yule-log fire and sing the "Tranformationelle" -- "O-oh, see if

you can say..."?!



On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, wachal robert s wrote:



> Would anyone care to comment on the acceptability or grammatically of

> the following two sentences, either privately or on ADS-L?

>

> 1. Kim and Dale think that each other is the best.

>

> 2. Who does she think said ate the cake?

>

> Just an answer with '*', '?', or 'OK' would be fine, but commnetary is

> also welcome.

>

> Thanks in advance. Bob

>

> robert-wachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiowa.edu

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Sep 1995 13:24:11 CDT

From:  Barbara Need <barbara[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAPIR.UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Could I please ask...



Well, for starters, Linguistics is NOT an English course (unless it

happens to be taught in an English Dept). It has value for persons

studying ANY language. It teaches you not how to use language, but

to understand how language is used: what its buidling blocks are,

how it changes, how society and societies use it to shape their

being.



I think it is VERY important for students training to become

teachers of English to take Linguistics because there is material

and a perspective in Linguistics that you will not find in ANY

OTHER English class: the idea that language is important, not

for the images it conveys, but for itself--and that language is

powerful--and that it is infinitely variable--and that THIS IS A

GOOD THING! You may learn about how an autor uses language to

create an effect, but you will not learn much about HOW to do that

if you do not learn what language is--and that does not seem to

be taught in the usual sorts of English classes (or French or

German or Chinese).



It is also important to recognize that just because you SPEAK English

(or at least one variety of it), you may not be able to TEACH it

without first understanding it: and speakers do NOT have an intuitive

ability to teach their language (I know, I've tried).



I hope this makes sense--and that others will respond. This is some-

thing which is very important to me and something which I hope to

be able to work on in the future.



Barbara Need

University of Chicago--Linguistics



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Sep 1995 14:56:53 -0400

From:  Virginia Clark <vpclark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU>

Subject: Re: Could I please ask...



At 12:18 AM 9/24/95 EDT, you wrote:

>>

>> What do we mwan by "Lig."??? (Ling.?)

>>

>> Bethany Dumas

>>

>    yes, I can't spell so I abbreviate. (Lingistics)

>

>

Why do you think that linguistics is another English course?



Virginia Clark



    ________________________________  __________________________

                     |   "Two men walking up a

>    Renea Beeler          --|--  hill, one disappears,

>    rcbeel01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu |  and one's left standing

>    Morehead State University    |   still. I wish We'd all

>                     | been ready."--Larry Norman

>    --------------------------------  --------------------------

>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Sep 1995 13:10:22 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Could I please ask...



On Sat, 23 Sep 1995, RENEA C BEELER wrote:



> ...what the advantages would be if Lig. would be a requirement?? The point

> would be...? (okay, T. Irons, don't go off on me :-) Although I haven't

> taken Lig. ( I might in the next couple of semesters), I just don't see the

> point of requiring another English course.

>

Well, this brings up some interesting points which I find in my undergrad

students all the time. 1) because it's offered by an English department,

in an institution that has no Linguistics department, an IntroLing course

is seen as "another English course" even when it's about principles of

language. 2) Teachers of IntroLing in English departments, it seems to

me, have a different task than those in Linguistics departments; that is,

IntroLing in a Ling Dept funnels newcomers into the program -- and that's

how many/most of us got our original impetus. But otherwise, should we be

training our students to be linguists when 99.9% won't be, and therefore

will not find that much relevance to such rigor when it's required? I've

chosen, with my co-teacher Matthew Bronson, to create a new mix called

'Linguistic Mindfulness' which grades about 40% on the technical levels

and 60% on their own relationship to language as they begin noticing new

things about language and writing about them in their journals --

encouraging them, in a Piagetian way, to work on the world with their new

concepts and vocabulary. The results are dramatic. One student told me

about her friend seeing a linguistics book on her bed and saying, "That

was the absolute worst class I ever took in my life!", to which my

student replied, "Well, you obviously didn't take it from Professor Alford!"



But seriously: do you want to teach an Intro class to wake students up to

the beauty and power of language in their own lives, or merely to funnel

a very small number of potential students into Linguistics? If you do the

first properly, you will still do the second.



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Sep 1995 19:55:37 EDT

From:  RENEA C BEELER <rcbeel01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: Could I please ask...



>

> At 12:18 AM 9/24/95 EDT, you wrote:

> >>

> >> What do we mwan by "Lig."??? (Ling.?)

> >>

> >> Bethany Dumas

> >>

> >    yes, I can't spell so I abbreviate. (Lingistics)

> >

> >

> Why do you think that linguistics is another English course?



    I assumed it was, but by the responses I"m getting Linguistics is

NOT in the English Dept. I haven't taken it, so I don't know...



>

> Virginia Clark

>

>     ________________________________  __________________________

>                     |   "Two men walking up a

> >    Renea Beeler          --|--  hill, one disappears,

> >    rcbeel01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu |  and one's left standing

> >    Morehead State University    |   still. I wish We'd all

> >                     | been ready."--Larry Norman

> >    --------------------------------  --------------------------

> >

> >

>





--



    ________________________________  __________________________

                     |   "Two men walking up a

    Renea Beeler          --|--  hill, one disappears,

    rcbeel01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu |  and one's left standing

    Morehead State University    |   still. I wish We'd all

                     | been ready."--Larry Norman

    --------------------------------  --------------------------



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Sep 1995 17:32:07 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood <dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM>

Subject: acceptability/grammaticality judgments



> 1. Kim and Dale think that each other is the best.



OK, though unusual enough to seem affected.



> 2. Who does she think said ate the cake?



Three verbs (think, said, ate) with two subjects (she, who). No good.



*\\* Anton                       Ubi scriptum?



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Sep 1995 19:26:19 -0600

From:  POLSKY ELLEN S <Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLORADO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Could I please ask...



I agree wholeheartedly with Barbara Need that Linguistics is a must for

prospective ESL (and other language) teachers. I work with many ESL

teachers with no linguistics background, and they often have trouble

explaining structures and pronunciation problems to students. I teach a

course called English Phonology for TESOL, and the students really

appreciate having that basic knowledge. I strongly believe that a basic

knowledge of linguistics is helpful to the general public and necessary

for language teachers.



Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Sep 1995 to 24 Sep 1995

************************************************





There are 19 messages totalling 454 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Sweet Fannie Adams (3)

 2. Linguistics as GE

 3. Gen Ed Linguistics (4)

 4. copy-ed re web usage urrl (fwd)

 5. Could I please ask... (2)

 6. gen ed

 7. fokall

 8. acceptability/grammaticality judgments, please -Reply

 9. sweet fannie adams

 10. One more judgment please

 11. Plural Proper Nouns (2)

 12. Plural 'they'



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Sep 1995 23:26:15 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Sweet Fannie Adams



At 7:03 PM 9/22/95, Nancy Dray wrote:

>When I hear people say "My Sainted Aunt" and "Sweet

>Fannie(y?) Adams" on those British PBS shows, do they mean what I think they

>mean?



As it turns out (we have a folk song expert as a friend; she refers us to

Kraft-Ebbing), Fannie Adams was a child victim of an especially grewsome

dismemberment in Victorian England. The renowned event gave rise to an

especially syrupy song, much heard in English music halls (think

vaudville). The use of "Sweet Fanny Adams!" therefore came to mean, "What

an unspeakable, scandalous horror!" A similar current example is the

aforementioned "going postal."



Now, what did you think it meant? :-)



r mckinzey



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 24 Sep 1995 23:26:40 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Linguistics as GE



At 1:24 PM 9/24/95, Barbara Need wrote:

>Well, for starters, Linguistics is NOT an English course (unless it

>happens to be taught in an English Dept). It has value for persons

>studying ANY language. It teaches you not how to use language, but

>to understand how language is used: what its buidling blocks are,

>how it changes, how society and societies use it to shape their

>being.

A suggestion: consider "Linguistics for the non-major." Do any of you word

types remember having to take physics/calculus/chemistry courses designed

for majors-and having to compete with pre-med majors?  Profs in those

areas were challenged to create courses around the question, "What about

your subject does ANY Educated Person need to know?"



kim



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Sep 1995 08:19:16 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Gen Ed Linguistics



I posted the question last spring and got a few replies. There was nothing

particularly consistent about how institutions use linguistics in the

general education requirements. In the Univ. System of GA, we can use

linguistics in Area IV of the core--the miscellaneous section in which

courses are chosen by individual departments. The assistant dean at UGA

explained that no one has ever tried to make linguistics count as a social

science because the course is taught by members of the English department.



So, counting as practically nothing, my new class this fall was allowed to

make with a dozen students.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Sep 1995 09:36:34 -0400

From:  Merri Lisa Johnson <mj906388[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: Re: copy-ed re web usage urrl (fwd)



On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, wachal robert s wrote:



>               COPYEDITING-L Digest 1088

>

> ------------------------------

> Jordana Kanee Signer <jkaneesigner[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inforamp.net> writes:

>

> >Personally, I think that "they" should always take a plural

> >verb. Other languages that use pronouns interchangeably as

> >either singular or plural, depending on the context, always

> >conjugate the verb in the plural. E.g. "Vous" in French is

> >always conjugated the same way (root + "ez", e.g. "chantez"),

>

> The only change I think likely with singular "they" is the

> development of the reflexive "themself" (versus "themselves"

> in the plural), parallel to "yourself".

>

> ------------------------------

Ok I'm confused as to who said what originally, but I just wanted to cast

my vote for the singular "they"--already in use and a drain on red

markers everywhere. Also, I came across the reflexive "themself" in a

student paper this very weekend, and had an ethical crisis: to mark or

not to mark. Of course I marked. But I don't know that I stand behind

that mark.



Merri Lisa

Ohio University>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Sep 1995 08:02:05 CDT

From:  Erin McKean <emm2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Sweet Fannie Adams



Another data point in the "going postal" discussion:



I was walking down the hall in my 600 person + midwestern

publishing company and heard one manufacturing manager

say to another:



"Just think how postal she's going to be when she gets

out of that meeting!"



I have to tell you, it made my day.



Erin McKean



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Sep 1995 10:41:16 -0400

From:  RACHEL A CALDWELL <racald01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: Could I please ask...



I agree with Barbara need. She was talking about Linguistics and how it

is great for any area of study. It doesn't need to be limited to English.

Rachel Caldwell



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Sep 1995 09:55:46 -0500

From:  Donald Larmouth <LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU>

Subject: Re: Gen Ed Linguistics



At the University of Wisconsin-Green Bay, three linguistics courses count

toward general education requirements. Introduction to Language is a "standard

issue" introductory linguistics course which meets part of the humanities/fine

arts distribution requirement for general education. Language and Human

Conflict, a case-study course in sociolinguistics, meets part of the

University's minority culture studies requirement, which is included in general

education. Language: Power & Style is an interdisciplinary seminar in language

issues which meets the University's capstone senior seminar requirement.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Sep 1995 09:51:46 -0600

From:  "Salikoko S. Mufwene" <s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Gen Ed Linguistics



In message Mon, 25 Sep 1995 08:19:16 -0400,

 Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU> writes:



> The assistant dean at UGA

> explained that no one has ever tried to make linguistics count as a social

> science because the course is taught by members of the English department.

>

  Then it must depend on where the class instructor is headquartered. When

I was at UGA and taught the "Study of Language" and "Languages of the

World," a lot of my students were Social Science and Education majors, often

more of them than Language majors. I was in the Department of Anthropology

and reviewed for promotion and tenure through the Social Sciences. I also

taught "Language and culture," which appealed to social science majors. I

had no more than two Language majors in several years of teaching this

class.

 Here at Chicago there was, until last year, a course called Language,

which was intended for non-linguists and designed with more emphasis (at

least as I taught it) on aspects of language that would be appealing to

non-linguists. I covered language and culture/society (including language

and gender), language contact (including problems that dialectologists

seldom discuss about development of American English--but you got to like

heresies to do this!), child language, pragmatics, and a couple of other

things. I found Wardaugh's INVESTIGATING LANGUAGE a useful starting point

for discussions and assigned readings in Clark, Escholz, & Rosa's LANGUAGE,

before referring students to some other more specialized sources for

projects to work on.

Sali.

**********************************************************************

Salikoko S. Mufwene          s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu

University of Chicago         312-702-8531

Department of Linguistics       FAX: 312-702-9861

1010 East 59th Street

Chicago, IL 60637

**********************************************************************



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Sep 1995 10:36:29 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Sweet Fannie Adams



I've also heard "fannie adams" explained as a euphemism for "fuck all,"

which is British slang for "nothing."



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Sep 1995 11:10:08 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: gen ed



when i was at umass (amherst) as an undergrad, some ling courses

counted as humanities credits, some as social science, and some as

natural science/math in the gen ed system. that, i think, is how it

should be! here at wits, i'm trapped in the faculty of arts, which

they are thinking of reorganizing into "nodes" and our tiny

department is heard crying through the halls of academe "no! no! don't

put us with literature!"



when i was at illnois (urbana), we got gen ed recognition for (i

believe) two classes: the intro to language science course and the

intro to psycholinguistics course. the main thing that was necessary

was to make it a writing-heavy course, which is rewarding enough to

do in itself (except for all the weekends spent marking).



here, there is no such thing as general education or even liberal

arts. alas and alack.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Sep 1995 11:15:50 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: fokall



(you may be getting this note twice--i foked up.)



> I've also heard "fannie adams" explained as a euphemism for "fuck all,"

> which is British slang for "nothing."



this is properly spelt "fokall" --as in, "i've done fokall today

except write to the ads list."



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Sep 1995 08:19:37 -0700

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: acceptability/grammaticality judgments, please -Reply



1. seems normal. 2. seems odd. I understand 2. to imply that someone said

who ate the cake, the question is: Who does she think said it?

I read it as: Who does she THINK said ate the cake? As if she could well

imagine who said it.

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



On Fri, 22 Sep 1995, Molly Dickmeyer wrote:



> Bob:

>

> As an editor, if I ran across these sentences I would edit thusly:

>

> 1. Kim and Dale think that each other is the best.

>

> Note that two meanings could be derived from the above:

> Kim and Dale each think that the other is the best.

> Kim and Dale like each other.

>

> But of course, written English is not spoken English. In

> conversation, I would find this acceptable and inflection would

> indicate which meaning was meant.

>

> 2. Who does she think said ate the cake?

>

> This one is harder for me to understand. Perhaps:

> Who does she think said "ate the cake"?

>

> Or is there an understood "you" here?

> Who does she think that you said ate the cake?

> (still not sparkling prose, but...)

>

> If there's another meaning I'm not getting, please do explain.

>

>

> Molly D.

> dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com

>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Sep 1995 11:50:31 -0400

From:  "H Stephen STRAIGHT (Binghamton University,

     SUNY)" <sstraigh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGSUNS.CC.BINGHAMTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: Gen Ed Linguistics



At Binghamton University (SUNY) for over 15 years now most of the

Linguistics Program's 100-level offerings, and several of its higher-level

offerings as well, have satisfied either a humanities or a social sciences

distribution requirement -- at the student's choice -- in the Harpur

College of Arts & Sciences and, because of their linkage to Harpur's three

divisions, also in the Gen Ed requirements of Binghamton's other schools

(of Education and Human Development, Engineering and Applied Science,

Management, and Nursing). In particular, Anthro/Ling 112, Language in

Human Behavior, which surveys the findings (as opposed to the methods) of

linguistics -- required for the major but not a prerequisite for

higher-level courses -- has drawn up to 480 enrollees a year.



Under Harpur's -- and by extension Binghamton's -- divisionally defined

distribution requirements, which is all Binghamton has had in the way of

Gen Ed except for separately defined language and writing requirements,

any course whatsoever in a divisionally-grounded department's listings

could count toward humanities, social sciences, or science and mathematics

requirements. As an interdivisional program, Linguistics used a

combination of cross-listings and mere fiat to define the divisional

rubrics for its courses, many of which have counted in more than one

division (but with no divisional double-counting for an individual

student). For example, historical linguistics counts as Hum or Soc Sci,

sociolinguistics as Soc Sci, psycholinguistics as Soc Sci or Sci & Math,

and neurolinguistics as Sci & Math.



Beginning soon, in addition to Harpur's continuing distribution

requirements, Harpur students will have to meet a two-course "Diversity"

requirement, while Binghamton students at large will have to meet a new

set of Gen Ed requirements that include such headings as "US Pluralism",

"Global Interdependencies", and "Laboratory Science". It remains to be

seen how linguistics courses will mesh with these new requirements, but

precedent suggests that individual courses -- with our without new or

revamped titles and descriptions -- will eventually find their way into

all four of the mentioned rubrics and perhaps some others as well.

Linguistics easily vies for honors as the most interdisciplinary of

disciplines.



    Best.          'Bye.         Steve

signature =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

H Stephen STRAIGHT        LxC      Binghamton University (SUNY)

Assoc Prof, Anthro and Ling        Box 6000, Binghamton NY 13902-6000

Dir, Langs Across the Curriculum    Tel: 607-777-2824  Fax: 607-777-2889

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Sep 1995 08:48:48 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood <dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM>

Subject: sweet fannie adams



Nancy L. Dray wrote:



> [...] which led me to wonder also about his sainted aunt, and what sweet

> Fannie Adams would say! More to the point, when I hear people say "My

> Sainted Aunt" and "Sweet Fannie(y?) Adams" on those British PBS shows, do

> they mean what I think they mean? I always thought these shared initials

> with exclamations that they bowdlerized, but for the former at least OED

> seems to imply not. [...]



Partridge says "Fannie Adams" stands for "fuck-all",

but what would the other be?



Anton Sherwood  *\\*  +1 415 267 0685  *\\*  DASher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Sep 1995 11:10:00 EST

From:  Electronic Products Magazine <0004276021[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MCIMAIL.COM>

Subject: One more judgment please



Here is my assessment of Bob's new sentence:



    Who do you believe Daria said left early?



OK. This is a better sentence than "Kim and Dale think that each other

is the best."





Leonard Schiefer            lschiefer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mcimail.com

Chief Copy Editor

Electronic Products Magazine

Garden City, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Sep 1995 17:05:44 EDT

From:  DANIELLE L LEVITT <dllevi01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: Plural Proper Nouns



I have to agree! I don't know why we didn't think of it earlier. Just think of how much simpler our lives would be? So when can we put it into motion?



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Sep 1995 18:36:52 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Plural Proper Nouns



I just love those mysterious posts that proess enthusiasm for some

UNNAMED practice! Ex:



I have to agree! I don't know why we didn't think of it earlier. Just think of

 how much simpler our lives would be? So when can we put it into motion?



(That was the entire message I received.)



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Sep 1995 20:16:27 -0400

From:  Jerry Miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>

Subject: Re: Could I please ask...



>...what the advantages would be if Lig. would be a requirement?? The point

>would be...? (okay, T. Irons, don't go off on me :-) Although I haven't

>taken Lig. ( I might in the next couple of semesters), I just don't see the

>point of requiring another English course.

>

>R.

>--

>

>    ________________________________  __________________________

>                     |   "Two men walking up a

>    Renea Beeler          --|--  hill, one disappears,

>    rcbeel01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu |  and one's left standing

>    Morehead State University    |   still. I wish We'd all

>                     | been ready."--Larry Norman

>    --------------------------------  --------------------------

>



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 25 Sep 1995 23:13:29 -0400

From:  "William H. Smith" <Wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Plural 'they'



Just to add to the confusion. Last spring I asked on a British lit test

dealing with Pope's

"Rape of the Lock," "How did coquettes preserve their virginity?" One

student wrote,

"A virgin did not stay with one man long enough to lose their virginity."

Bill Smith



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Sep 1995 to 25 Sep 1995

************************************************





There are 6 messages totalling 314 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Fw: NEH/NSF Cutbacks

 2. 6.1313, Qs: Logic/Pragmatics, Dialect Samples, Russian Velars

 3. NEH revised deadlines

 4. "Whimmy Diddle" (fwd) (2)

 5. Sweet Fannie Adams



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Sep 1995 09:18:55 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Fw: NEH/NSF Cutbacks



If you are filling out all those forms for an NEH summer stipend or living

off NSF funds, you may want to read the following.



Wayne Glowka



>X-UIDL: 812118536.000

>X-Nupop-Charset: English

>Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 08:13:15 -0600 (CST)

>From: "Bryan McCullar" <bmcculla[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu>

>Sender: bmcculla[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

>Reply-To: bmcculla[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

>To: wglowka

>Subject: Fw: NEH/NSF Cutbacks

>Content-Type: text

>Content-Length: 3434

>

>

>------------------------------

>From: llapins[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]seraph1.sewanee.edu (Laura M. Lapins)

>Tue, 26 Sep 1995 04:00:11 -0400

>To: Multiple recipients of list <cfrnet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gibbs.oit.unc.edu>

>Subject: NEH/NSF Cutbacks

>

>Dear CFNetters:

>

>Many of you don't deal with federal programs, but for those of us in

>one-person shops, I thought you'd be interested in the following notices.

>Thanks a lot, Newt!

>

>-- Laura

>

>

> Subject: NEH Summer Stipend Program: $ for 1996 = cancelled

>

>   Due to a probable significant reduction in the US National

>   Endowment for the Humanities' appropriation for fiscal year,

>   1996, the October 2, 1995 deadline for NEH Summer Stipends has

>   been suspended. There will be no new deadline between October,

>   1995 and October, 1996.

>

>   For further information on NEH deadlines, please call the NEH

>  Public Information Office at 202 606 8400.

>

>   Please notify your colleagues.

>   From: rbolin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEH.FED.US

>

>

> GUIDANCE FOR NSF GRANTEES, CONTRACTORS AND OTHER AWARDEES IN THE

> EVENT OF AN NSF SHUTDOWN

>

> 1.   Awardees (grantees, recipients of cooperative agreements, contractors,

> etc. - EXCEPT those working on-site at NSF) should continue performance under

> their NSF awards during any NSF shutdown period to the extent funds are

> available under their awards. (This should apply to over 95% of NSF awards.)

>

> 2.   Payments by NSF to its awardees are expected to continue to be made,

> using normal procedures, during any NSF shutdown period to the extent funds

> are available under NSF awards.

>

> 3.   Contractors who DO NOT have sufficient funds to continue operations

> during any NSF shutdown period should notify their cognizant Contracting

> Officer as soon as this is known. Continuation of any activity in the absence

> of additional funding will be solely at their own risk.

>

> 4.   Other awardees (grantees, recipients of cooperative agreements, etc.)

> who DO NOT have funds available under their awards to continue activities

> during any NSF shutdown period also are cautioned that continuation of

> performance under their NSF awards is at the awardees own risk. It is

> expected that after any NSF shutdown is over, NSF will obligate funds to those

> awards that would have otherwise been funded. NSF cannot now authorize costs

> exceeding available award amounts nor obligate the NSF to cover such costs.

>

> EXCEPTION: Awardees undertaking or providing services or activities involving

> the safety of human life or the protection of U.S. Government property, are

> authorized to continue those limited functions necessary to meet those

> responsibilities. NSF will obligate funds to cover those reasonable costs

> after any NSF shutdown period is over.

>

> 5.   Contractors, IPAs and others working on-site at NSF have been or will

> be provided with other specific guidance.

>

> 6.   Questions related to this guidance should be directed to NSF's

> Division of Grants and Agreements or the Division of Contracts, Policy &

> Oversight, as appropriate.

>

>

>

>******************************************************

>Laura M. Lapins

>Director, Foundation and Corporate Relations

>The University of the South

>735 University Avenue

>Sewanee, Tennessee 37383

>615/598-1128 or 1-800/367-1179

>615/598-1199 - fax

>llapins[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]seraph1.sewanee.edu

>

>J Bryan McCullar

>Institutional Advancement

>Georgia College

>Campus Box 96

>Milledgeville, GA 31061

>912 453 5771 voice/912 453 5744 fax

>bmcculla[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

>

>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Sep 1995 13:09:19 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: 6.1313, Qs: Logic/Pragmatics, Dialect Samples, Russian Velars



A cross-posting from Linguist List of possible interest...



----------------------------Original message----------------------------

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

LINGUIST List: Vol-6-1313. Tue Sep 26 1995. ISSN: 1068-4875. Lines: 127



Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 10:25:16 CDT

From: wendi[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csd.uwm.edu (Wendi K Halstead)

Subject: Russian Velars



---------------------------------Messages------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 15:50:03 BST

From: kuehnle[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]str.daimler-benz.com ("KUEHNLE")

Subject: American English Dialect Samples



Dear Linguist Subscribers,



I am posting this for a colleague here at Daimler-Benz research who is

interested in quantifying the performance of a speech recognition system for

cars.



We are interested in getting a representative sample of American English

dialects to train the system and wonder how to do this. Ideally, we would like

to record speakers at less than 10 locations in the US and accumulate between

50 and 100 samples. The speakers will all read from the same list of target

words.



Our question is: at what locations should we do this ? Do you feel that a

representative sampling is possible with this number of speakers ? Any other

hints ?



Please reply directly to my colleague: reh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]str.daimlerbenz.com.



We will post a summary to the list.



Many thanks for your help,



A. Kuehnle

------------------------------------------------------------------------

LINGUIST List: Vol-6-1313.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Sep 1995 17:14:15 -0400

From:  Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: NEH revised deadlines



If you are interested in applying for a grant from the National Endowment for

the Humanities, you will want to know this revised list of deadlines, the

result of the brave new funding. - Allan Metcalf

************************

From: info[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neh.fed.us

September 19, 1995



N.E.H ANNOUNCES CHANGES IN APPLICATION DEADLINES



Due to the uncertain funding level of the National Endowment for

the Humanities at the beginning of the new fiscal year (October),

there is a need to reorganize the agency's application review

process.



The following list indicates all application deadline changes to

date. For all NEH programs not listed here, previously published

application deadlines apply.



                   Old deadline  New deadline

Division of Public Programs

Projects in Media          Oct. 1, 1995  Jan. 12, 1996

(planning, scripting and production) March 1, 1996  Jan. 12, 1996



Projects in Museums and Historical Orgns.

(planning and implementation)    Dec. 1, 1995  Jan. 12, 1996



Projects in Libraries and Archives

(planning and implementation)    Nov. 1, 1995  Jan. 12, 1996



Special Projects           Nov. 1, 1995  Jan. 12, 1996

                   March 1, 1996  Jan. 12, 1996



National Conversation Special Comp. Nov. 24, 1995  NO CHANGE



Division of Education Programs

Higher Education

 No applications will be accepted for the Oct. 1, 1995, deadline.

 Applications for national summer institutes only will be accepted

 for the Feb. 1, 1996, deadline.



Elementary and Secondary Education

 No applications will be accepted for the Oct. 1, 1995, deadline.

 Applications for national summer institutes only will be accepted

 for the Feb. 1, 1996, deadline.



Science and Humanities: Integrating

 Undergraduate Education      February 1, 1996 (Canceled)



Division of Research Programs

Archaeology Projects         Oct. 1, 1995   (Suspended)



Conferences             Dec. 1, 1995   (Suspended)



Dissertation Grants         Oct. 16, 1995  (Suspended)



Humanities Studies of Science/Tech. Oct. 1, 1995   (Suspended)



Publication Subvention        Feb. 1, 1996   (Suspended)



Summer Stipends           Oct. 1, 1995   (Suspended)



Reference Materials (will be moved to Div. of Preservation and

Access Dec. 1, 1995)         Nov. 1, 1995   July 1, 1996



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Sep 1995 19:08:43 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: "Whimmy Diddle" (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 14:38:54 -0500 (CDT)

From: Reference Staff <ref[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rand.lcl.lib.ne.us>

To: Stumpers <stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU>

Subject: RE: "Whimmy Diddle"





I had a patron ask me today if I could give him a definition of the term

"Whimmy Diddle". All I found out is that it is a World Contest in

Asheville, NC. And it is also a festival in Scott City, KS. I still am

not sure what it means. Does anyone know??



Thanks,



Kandi M. Gordon Thomas

Lincoln City Libraries/Reference Department

Lincoln, Nebraska



P.S. If anyone does have an answer for me--could you E-mail me directly

since I do not subscribe to Stumpers--Thanks. Kandi <ref[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rand.lcl.lib.ne.us>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Sep 1995 19:39:24 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: "Whimmy Diddle" (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Tue, 26 Sep 1995 10:15:43 -0500 (CDT)

From: Daphne Drewello <drewello[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sendit.sendit.nodak.edu>

To: Reference Staff <ref[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rand.lcl.lib.ne.us>

Cc: Stumpers <stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU>

Subject: RE: "Whimmy Diddle"



Kandi---

 According to the _Encyclopedia of Southern Culture_ (The University

of North Carolina Press, 1989) p. 524 (under the heading "Toys"):

"Children spent hours rubbing their notched, propeller-ended

whimmy-diddle sticks---also called whammydiddle sticks, hooey

sticks, or gee-haw whimmydiddles."



 Volume 20 of _The Family Creative Workshop_ (Plenary Publications

International, 1976) pp 2550-2551, gives instructions for a gee-

haw whimmy-diddle, which consists of a notched wooden stick with

a propeller in the shape of an x on one end. (Traditional ones

were made of branches, but dowels can also be used.) There is a

skill to rubbing the whimmy-diddle in such a way that the propeller

will either spin to the right when you command it to 'gee' and to

the left when you command it to 'haw.' Geeing and hawing techniques

are also given in the article.



 I can fax/mail the appropriate pages which will be probably make

things clearer than my explanation. In these parts we mostly toss

buffalo chips around for fun. These not only are simpler in design,

but have the added advantage of coming ready-made, no assembly required.



Daphne



Daphne Drewello

Alfred Dickey Library

Jamestown, ND



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 26 Sep 1995 18:59:55 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Sweet Fannie Adams



As it turns out, we have a folk-song expert as a friend, & she tells us

(referring us to Kraft-Ebbing) that Fannie Adams was a Victorian child

victim of an especially gruesome sexual murder & dismemberment. The case

gave rise to a syrupy song that was much in vogue in English Music Halls.

"Sweet Fannie Adams!" thus arose to mean "Oh, what a scandalous horror!"

in the same fashion of "going postal".





r mckinzey



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Sep 1995 to 26 Sep 1995

************************************************





Topics of the day:



 1. candy bars and measurements (9)

 2. candy bars and measurements -Reply (3)

 3. address needed

 4. Nova

 5. going metric (2)

 6. intense linguists with messy offices

 7. Going Decimal (3)

 8. ? Phrase: "Johnny at the rathole" (fwd)

 9. Phrase

 10. driving on the left



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 06:59:29 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: candy bars and measurements



a couple of questions for those with the inclination to respond:



candy bars

i was a bit surprised to find that "candy bar" is not in any of my

american english dictionaries, since, for me, this is not entirely

compositional in meaning. candy bars are chocolate bars (or bars

involving chocolate at least on the outside, like a mars bar or a kit

kat). it would be weird (for me) to refer to a bar of licorice or

nougat or peanut brittle as a "candy bar." do others share this

intuition? or is a chocolate bar a prototypical candy bar, but

the others are still candy bars? (maybe my intuitions are fading.)

and is there any part of the u.s. in which "candy bar" is not used?



measurement

what do you call the system of measurement that americans use (i.e.,

the non-metric system). it seems to me i've heard "english", but

this isn't in my dictionaries. i think "imperial" refers to another

system altogether (isn't an imperial gallon different than a u.s.

gallon?). does the system even have a name?



thanks in advance,

lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 08:10:28 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: candy bars and measurements



M. Lynne Murp[hy asks:>



>candy bars

>i was a bit surprised to find that "candy bar" is not in any of my

>american english dictionaries, since, for me, this is not entirely

>compositional in meaning. candy bars are chocolate bars (or bars

>involving chocolate at least on the outside, like a mars bar or a kit

>kat). it would be weird (for me) to refer to a bar of licorice or

>nougat or peanut brittle as a "candy bar." do others share this

>intuition? or is a chocolate bar a prototypical candy bar, but

>the others are still candy bars? (maybe my intuitions are fading.)

>and is there any part of the u.s. in which "candy bar" is not used?

>



In the dim past, before I discovered Cabernet Savignon, I ate candy bars. I

remember eating one horror called a 'Baby Ruth.' It had an (UGH!) peanut

covering and, as I recall, no chocolate at all. I agree it might be less

'prototypical' than such putatively chocolate but tasteless abominations as

the 'Three Musketeers,' but it was, nevertheless, a 'candy bar.' Shape and

packaging seem to be nearly as important as other factors (except, of

course, for the ubiquitous gob of sugar). Looks like a victory for fuzzy

sets and prototypes to me.

Odd, however (at least to me) is the fact that 'candy bar' is not a subset

of the class 'candy.' I would have to go up to the higher class 'sweets' to

include both.



Dennis who-don't-eat-no-candy-no-more Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 08:19:40 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: candy bars and measurements



Fascinating Q, Lynne. As I pondered it, I realized that I have not heard

the term "canday bar" in years and years and years. I can't remember the

last time I heard it. I hear "bar of candy" ocasionally, and I hear

"candy" -- but no "candy bar." I think I say "some cady" on the very

rare occasioans when I can't stay away from the machine in my

building.



Bethany Duas

[candy, Dumas]



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 08:34:02 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: candy bars and measurements



> In the dim past, before I discovered Cabernet Savignon, I ate candy bars. I

> remember eating one horror called a 'Baby Ruth.' It had an (UGH!) peanut

> covering and, as I recall, no chocolate at all. I agree it might be less

> 'prototypical' than such putatively chocolate but tasteless abominations as

> the 'Three Musketeers,' but it was, nevertheless, a 'candy bar.' Shape and

> packaging seem to be nearly as important as other factors (except, of

> course, for the ubiquitous gob of sugar). Looks like a victory for fuzzy

> sets and prototypes to me.



actually, baby ruths do have a chocolate covering, but it tends to

fall off after you take the first bite.



lynne, who knows way too much about candy



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 07:36:12 -0600

From:  Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>

Subject: Re: candy bars and measurements



At 8:10 AM 9/27/95 -0500, Dennis R. Preston wrote:



>In the dim past, before I discovered Cabernet Savignon, I ate candy bars. I

>remember eating one horror called a 'Baby Ruth.' It had an (UGH!) peanut

>covering and, as I recall, no chocolate at all.



I beg to differ. Baby Ruths are covered in chocolate, and, as I recall, are

fabulously delicious. The one covered in peanuts is a Pay Day, and when you

have it for breakfast along with a Diet Dr. Depper in graduate school it

allows you the illusion that you're getting a little protein.



I would describe a Pay Day as a candy bar, despite its chococatelessness.



Kate Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 08:34:51 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: candy bars and measurements



I guess you have to be kid, Dennis, to love candy bars. In this day of

low-fat regimens, it is sometimes difficult to remember what a candy bar

is. For me, a candy bar is always chocolate, and I would agree that I do

not relate candy bars to candy--that hard, pure-sugar stuff that rots the

teeth and spares the heart (to a point).



However, the last Friday night I was craving a sweet, and my mother-in-law,

bless her, who disregards all that cholestrol stuff, had a box of Mr.

Goodbars in the refrigerator. Since one candy bar had 18 grams of fat, I

contented myself with only half a bar. It was wonderful!



Speaking of wine and candy, I once judged an impromptu speaking event at

which the topic was "candy is dandy but liquor is quicker." Not one of the

eight college students knew what the expression meant. I got a sermon

about how liquor will send you to hell more quickly than candy will, but I

did get an interesting speech from a young woman of healthy proportions who

said that a box of chocolate (= candy) eaten in a hot bath will help a

person relax, but not as quickly as a bottle of wine consumed in a hot

bath.



Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 08:55:24 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: candy bars and measurements



I took a walk around the block and realized that for me a "box of candy" is

full of chocolates, but that a "bag of candy" is usually full of the hard

stuff--kisses and minibars excepted. I was in my 20s before I saw a box of

taffy and can't think of any other candy that comes in a box, although I

imagine rich people could get enough fudge and divinity to fill a box.



Anyone else ever see one of those sampler boxes filled with wrapped horse

apples?



Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 09:40:32 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer <dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM>

Subject: candy bars and measurements -Reply



>measurement what do you call the system of measurement that

>americans use (i.e., the non-metric system). it seems to me i've

>heard "english", but this isn't in my dictionaries. i think

>"imperial" refers to another system altogether (isn't an imperial

>gallon different than a u.s. gallon?). does the system even have a

>name?

>thanks in advance, lynne



Lynne:

I've been looking for an elegant way of stating "non-metric" for

years--it comes up every time I need an author to confirm a metric

conversion (I have yet to figure out to what measurement system "two

finger breadths from the sternum" belongs). _Websters_ indicates

"U.S. equivalent" as opposed to metric. My _Dorland's Medical_ has

conversion tables that call it the "British-US system".

"Conventional" cannot be used (at least, with scientific precision)

because it is used in opposition to SI, or standard international

units--which is a whole 'nother ball game. I prefer to use the term

associated with the type of measurement. For example: in temperature,

it would be "Fahrenheit"; in weight, it would be apothecaries',

Avoirdupois, or Troy; in length or distance, there doesn't appear to

be an alternative other than "US or British".



But I'm always looking for some new alternatives!!



Molly.

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 08:40:00 CDT

From:  Edward Callary <TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MVS.CSO.NIU.EDU>

Subject: address needed



Does anyone have the e-dress of the listserv (or

moderator) of editor-l?



Thanks



Edward Callary



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 09:44:17 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: candy bars and measurements



The inches/pounds/etc. system of measurement used in the US, and to

some extent elsewhere, is referred to, I think, as either the

"English" system (although while an inch is an inch, a pint in

England is not the same as a pint in the US) or simply as the

"common" or "conventional" system: it more or less grew rather than

being codified the way the metric system was. Of course, everything is

now done in metric terms: the official definition of the inch is

that it equals 25.4 millimeters. (By the way, Britain will be officially

converting to the metric system on Sunday.)



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 10:44:49 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer <dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM>

Subject: Re: candy bars and measurements -Reply



>The inches/pounds/etc. system of measurement used in the US, and to

>some extent elsewhere, is referred to, I think, as either the

>"English" system (although while an inch is an inch, a pint in

>England is not the same as a pint in the US) or simply as the

>"common" or "conventional" system: it more or less grew rather than

>being codified the way the metric system was. Of course, everything

>is now done in metric terms: the official definition of the inch is

>that it equals 25.4 millimeters.



Vicki--guess we crossed posts. See my previous post on "conventional"

and on "US-British" vs. "English".



>(By the way, Britain will be officially converting to the metric

>system on Sunday.)



By the way, didn't the US officially convert to the metric system

about 15 or 20 years ago? (I remember the hoopla when I was in

school). It just didn't take--will it be more likely to do so in

Britain?



Molly

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ph.lrpub.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 13:14:57 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Nova



The list has been quiet today. Did anyone else see _Nova_ last night? The

show was called something like "In Search of Language." It was about

language families and language change. I enjoyed it immensely. My wife,

however, thought that it was a yawner, but we both enjoyed the interviews

with intense linguists with messy offices.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 12:32:00 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: going metric



Is going metric like going postal, only more so? When I spent a year in

France we went metric in a big way. Distance, liquid measure, even the

24-hour clock and decimal currency were no problem. The only problem I had

with metric was the temperature. I know there's an easy formula, and I was

always perfectly comfortable doing centigrade in science labs. But somehow

it was all meaningless when it came to the weather (or sick children, tho

we did bring along a fahrenheit oral thermometer). So every time I

listened to the meteo on the radio, I would have to stick my head out the

window to really know how to dress the family.



Dennis

--



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 17:02:39 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: candy bars and measurements



Thanks Kate. PayDay is the abomination I remember, but, as you note, we

called it a candy bar (in spite of its lack of chocolate), and that was my

point.

I continue (obviously) to have my own opinion about whether any of them

were 'fabulously delicious.

Dennis Preston

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>



>At 8:10 AM 9/27/95 -0500, Dennis R. Preston wrote:

>

>>In the dim past, before I discovered Cabernet Savignon, I ate candy bars. I

>>remember eating one horror called a 'Baby Ruth.' It had an (UGH!) peanut

>>covering and, as I recall, no chocolate at all.

>

>I beg to differ. Baby Ruths are covered in chocolate, and, as I recall, are

>fabulously delicious. The one covered in peanuts is a Pay Day, and when you

>have it for breakfast along with a Diet Dr. Depper in graduate school it

>allows you the illusion that you're getting a little protein.

>

>I would describe a Pay Day as a candy bar, despite its chococatelessness.

>

>Kate Catmull  kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 20:17:00 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: candy bars and measurements -Reply



> (By the way, Britain will be officially converting to the metric

> system on Sunday.)



I thought they did that years ago. I had been under the impression that

the U.S. was just about the only non-metric country left in the world.

I think I remember seeing one other country listed somewhere as non-metric

-- a small island I had never heard of. (No, the island wasn't the U.K.)

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 20:24:29 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: going metric



> 24-hour clock and decimal currency were no problem. The only problem I had

> with metric was the temperature. I know there's an easy formula, and I was



Just think 21=perfect; a little higher than 21=good if you like warm

weather, which I do; a lot higher than 21=fine in Mississippi, where we

know how to live in hot weather, too hot in Europe (or the northern US),

where life isn't designed for hot weather; a little lower than 21=colder

than I like but perfect in some people's opinions; a lot lower than 21=

pile up the blankets and hibernate. In other words, all you need to do

is remember 21. No need to worry about a complicated formula.



I love the 24-hour clock, btw. On the few clocks that I own that offer

the choice between 12-hour and 24-hour, I choose 24-hour. It makes much

more sense to me.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 22:01:39 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: intense linguists with messy offices



Oh, what a wonderful phrase!



Just today one of my colleagues commented that mine is much worse than

usual (which is baaaaad). I think I'll make a sign for the door. The

only question is, should it be in the form of a warning label?



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 22:08:26 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Going Decimal



I have not yet gone postal, and I do not think I will live long enough

to see this coutry truly go metric, but I have gone decimal. I lived in

London from August 1970-August 1971 (my excuse was that I was

studying Swahili at SOAS, which I actually did for two terms). which is

the period in which the "new" currency was establised as the only

legal tender. When I arrived, the new coins were already in circulation

and both "old

" and "new" tender were legal. In January, after a 3-day bank holiday

weekend in which ALL checking accounts in the coutnry were converted,

the "old" currency became no good and only the "new" could be used.

(Discussing this now is sort of like referring to the Book of Common

Prayer adopted by the Episcopal Church in 1978 as the "new"

prayerbook.) I heard some fascinating conversations between

shopkeepers and little old ladies on fixed incomes (of both

sexes). That same year, Scandinavia or some part of it (Sweden?)

switched from driving on one side of the street to the other (I forget

whcih direction the move was in) -- that is an experience I do not

hope to have.



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 22:03:30 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: ? Phrase: "Johnny at the rathole" (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 10:28:29 -0700 (PDT)

From: Serra Coop. Library System <serra[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLASS.ORG>

To: Stumpers-list <Stumpers-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRF.CUIS.EDU>

Subject: ? Phrase: "Johnny at the rathole"





We have another colloquial expression for which the patron wants to know

the *origin*!!!! We know the meaning; _Dictionary of Contemporary Slang_

defines it as meaning "an exceptionally enthusiastic, greedy person".



DCS cites Runyon, Damon. _Runyon on Broadway_ (Constable, 1950, no page #)

which we do not own.



Wall/Words & Phrases Index has references to _Dialect Notes_ 3:545+, 1911

and 5:167, 1922, which we do not have access to either at our library or

the two university libraries locally.



Patron heard as a child and still uses it. Her parents were of Irish

ancestry and she grew up in Ohio & Oklahoma; she thought it might relate

to the potato famine. Does anyone have access to the above sources or

something else that might help us out? TIA



    Judy Swink/serra[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]class.org



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 23:11:34 -0400

From:  crissie trigger <crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPOF.FLA.NET>

Subject: Re: Going Decimal



Today I read your exchanges for the first time (normally the are read by my

friend at my address), I am English living in America (16yrs) as Bethany

Dumas said Britain 's currency went metric in the early 70's and by the mid

70's so had the weights & measures, it wasn't easy but we adapted and the

manufacturers helped by printing both imperial and metric weights on

packages, so I was vey surprised to read that it becomes official this year

(according to one of the corrispondent on this line).I suspect it wil not be

so easy for America to go metric , there's a lot more resistance here and a

much bigger area to cover and convert.

    As for "Candy Bars", I think it's just another American Slang catch

all term for anything sweet to eat that's not a cookie or cake.In Great

Britain "Sweeties" does the same thing in most dialects in most areas of the

country.

    Imperial measure in both weights and liquidswas developed way back

in history and was used world wide fo many years before metric came in and

the histry of both are very interesting.though at this moment I cannot

recite it , I do know that the American gallon is unique to the

Americas!.Why I don't remember, when I remember this part of my History

lessons maybr I'll join in again. Till then thanks and Bye



Crissie Trigger



PS The Swedish experiance was interesting too, made for great conversation

for years I was there, again it was relatively easy due ot the size of the

country and number of people involved.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 17:44:05 -0800

From:  Michael Elkins <MELKINS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADVOCATE.COM>

Subject: Phrase



The following sentence was posted in a message on another list:



Have we any garment-district editors who, like me, have nothing better

to do than chase up ancient usages?



Is anyone else familiar with this usage of "chase up"? For me, growing

up in central Texas, it has always been "chase down."



Michael Elkins, Managing Editor

The Advocate, Los Angeles

melkins[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]advocate.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 22:32:15 -0500

From:  Dennis Baron <debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Going Decimal



That same year, Scandinavia or some part of it (Sweden?)

>switched from driving on one side of the street to the other (I forget

>whcih direction the move was in) -- that is an experience I do not

>hope to have.

>

>Bethany Dumas



The year I was in France my students were telling lots of Belgian jokes.

One I remember: The Belgians decided they were going to imitate the British

and drive on the left side of the road. First they were going to have the

trucks do it, and if that worked, then the cars would do it too.



Dennis

--



Dennis Baron                    debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu

Department of English           office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois              fax: 217-333-4321

608 S. Wright Street             home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, IL 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 20:42:57 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood <dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM>

Subject: driving on the left



> The year I was in France my students were telling lots of Belgian jokes.

> One I remember: The Belgians decided they were going to imitate the British

> and drive on the left side of the road. First they were going to have the

> trucks do it, and if that worked, then the cars would do it too.



Dad (who isn't French and, as far as I know, has never set foot

in Belgium) told me one about the Belgian who decided against taking

his vacation in England because he heard they drive on the left there,

and on experiment he found it just too nerve-wracking.



Anton Sherwood  *\\*  +1 415 267 0685  *\\*  DASher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netcom.com



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Sep 1995 to 27 Sep 1995

************************************************





There are 43 messages totalling 1235 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. going metric

 2. ? Phrase: "Johnny at the rathole" (fwd)

 3. Masters programs and beyond (9)

 4. candy bars and measurements -Reply (2)

 5. Going Decimal (3)

 6. Phrase (3)

 7. Metric? Bah! Humbug!

 8. candy bar (3)

 9. from Lynne re candy (3)

 10. jobs and pragmatism

 11. candy bars and measurements (2)

 12. reese's cups

 13. Query about Language Concentrations in English Depts. (5)

 14. X-Post from LINGUIST: Varieties of English

 15. What Can You Do with a Degree in X (2)

 16. metrification

 17. Language in the Judicial Process: Issue 2 will be online shortly

 18. from Lynne re candy -Reply

 19. What Can You Do with a Degree in X -Reply

 20. metrification -Reply



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 01:12:58 -0400

From:  ALICE FABER <faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: going metric



Dennis Baron asks:

 |

 | Is going metric like going postal, only more so? When I spent a year in

 | France we went metric in a big way. Distance, liquid measure, even the

 | 24-hour clock and decimal currency were no problem. The only problem I had

 | with metric was the temperature. I know there's an easy formula, and I was

 | always perfectly comfortable doing centigrade in science labs. But somehow

 | it was all meaningless when it came to the weather (or sick children, tho

 | we did bring along a fahrenheit oral thermometer). So every time I

 | listened to the meteo on the radio, I would have to stick my head out the

 | window to really know how to dress the family.



This is getting off topic, but...when I studied in Israel, the way I coped

with metric temperatures was simply to memorize a few points:

    0 freezing

    21 room temperature

    38 body temperature

    40 stinking hot

Everything else was proportions (halfway between room temp and body temp is 84

F). This was kind of an operational calibration (ie, 21C is slightly cooler

than 72F), but it was the only practical way to do things.



Now distance/speed limits I could do conversions for on the fly...Go figure.



Alice Faber



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 02:25:49 EDT

From:  Kev <krkefg01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: ? Phrase: "Johnny at the rathole" (fwd)



> Patron heard as a child and still uses it. Her parents were of Irish

> ancestry and she grew up in Ohio & Oklahoma; she thought it might relate

> to the potato famine. Does anyone have access to the above sources or

> something else that might help us out? TIA

>

>     Judy Swink/serra[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]class.org

>

Hi there y'all...

I've been lurking around here for a week or two, just learning from

everyone on here... I guess now is a good time to post, no?

Anyhoo, as for "Johnny at the rathole," I grew up in south central Ohio

and heard this phrase from a few of the older folks there... However, unless

the potato famine hit hard in Ohio (since I can't think of anywhere where

they grow potatoes there), I don't think it involves that... Of course,

that's just a lay-opinion, remember. I don't have the above clipped info

on hand either... Just thought I'd surface with this one!



--

Thanks for reading!

KVK III (R/TV Major, Linguistics minor)



"Once, there was this boy whose

 Parents made him come directly home right after school, and

 When they went to their church,

 They'd jump

 And lurch all over the church floor.

 He couldn't quite explain it,

 They'd always just gone there"

    Mmmm, Mmmm, Mmmm, Mmmm

    Crash Test Dummies



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 02:31:24 EDT

From:  Kev <krkefg01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Masters programs and beyond



Hey there again!

Since I've quit slothing around, I'll ask a question I've been meaning

to ask for a while here...



Most of y'all have at least a masters, some probably in Linguistics.

Three questions...



1) I have to convince my father that Grad School is worth it... I am

  really interested in Linguistics, which would be my choice for

  a masters, and perhaps a doctorate degree. However, my father, the

  ultimate pragmatist, wants to know what the hell I'd do with the

  degree... aside from teach. I said research, but I really couldn't

  give him a good answer... Anyone have any ideas?



2) Does anyone have a suggestion as to where I should go? Is there any place

  that's inherently (sp?) better that everywhere else?



3) I lied... The truth value of the above statement is false since I only

  had two questions, I guess!



--

Thanks for reading!

KVK III (a Moreheadlian... just like Terry! Don't hold it against me! :-)



"Let it rock,

 Let it roll!

 Let the bible belt come and

 Save my sould!"

    Jack and Diane

    John Cougar Mellencamp



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 27 Sep 1995 23:41:56 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: candy bars and measurements -Reply



Just read in the paper today, that when the UK changes systems on Oct. 1,

it will be an offense not to change. Retailers will be fined if caught

selling produce by the pound or cloth by the yard. Only beer will still be

allowed to be sold by the pint (Imperial). Somehow, I don't think that

would work here.



As far as candy bars go, if it isn't chocolate, why bother? My feeling,

terminology-wise, is that if it's about the right shape, it's a candy bar.

Who else remembers the Big Daddy taffy candy bars that we got in the movies

because they would last the whole time?



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 06:02:32 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Going Decimal



>     As for "Candy Bars", I think it's just another American Slang catch

> all term for anything sweet to eat that's not a cookie or cake.In Great



No. Yesterday, for example, I went down to the vending machine to get

a candy bar (I was planning on getting a Milky Way), but I changed my

mind at the last minute and got a bag of M&Ms instead. M&Ms are not a

candy bar; a Milky Way is a candy bar. A candy bar has to be a bar --

a loosely defined bar in that it's possible to have a square candy bar

or possibly even a roundish one, although I can't think of any examples

of that. A bag of small items like M&Ms can't be a candy bar.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 06:10:25 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Masters programs and beyond



>  a masters, and perhaps a doctorate degree. However, my father, the

>  ultimate pragmatist, wants to know what the hell I'd do with the

>  degree... aside from teach. I said research, but I really couldn't

>  give him a good answer... Anyone have any ideas?



Do you have web access? If so, go to http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/ADS/

and look at the job ads. At least several of them are for non-teaching

jobs in linguistics.



> 2) Does anyone have a suggestion as to where I should go? Is there any place

>  that's inherently (sp?) better that everywhere else?



I don't think there's any one place that's inherently better than everywhere

else. Do you know yet which branch of linguistics you're most interested

in? That could make a difference in your choice of where to go. Again,

the web might be useful to you. You can get some ideas of what's going on

at different places by looking at their web pages. And, of course, you can

look at books and articles and see where the people are who are publishing

the kinds of work you're interested in.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 07:59:16 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Phrase



It's "chase down" for me -- I grew up in southeast Texas.



Bethany Dumas

Bethany K. Dumas, J.D.., Ph.D. | Applied Linguistics, Language & Law

Dep't of English, UT, Knoxville | EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu

415 McClung Tower        | (615) 974-6965 | FAX (615) 974-6926

Knoxville, TN 37996-0430    | See Webpage at http://hamlet.la.utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 08:07:08 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: Masters programs and beyond



> >  a masters, and perhaps a doctorate degree. However, my father, the

> >  ultimate pragmatist, wants to know what the hell I'd do with the

> >  degree... aside from teach. I said research, but I really couldn't

> >  give him a good answer... Anyone have any ideas?

>

> Do you have web access? If so, go to http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/ADS/

> and look at the job ads. At least several of them are for non-teaching

> jobs in linguistics.



i have serious ethical debates (mostly with myself) about whether to

 encourage people to pursue linguistics. yes, there are linguistics-

oriented jobs that are not academic, but they are generally not

given to linguists. a lot of the stuff these days is for computer

scientists with some familiarity with other languages or linguistics.

other things that advertise for linguists (e.g., the annual search

by caterpiller for linguists) are based on misapprehensions of what

linguists do (i base this on the experiences of several friends who

have applied for that job). many, if not most, lexicographers are

not linguists by training, but people who have worked their ways up

through the publishing organization.



for the jobs that exist, there is intense competition. i'm not

living in the city with the highest murder, rape, and carjacking rates

in the world for kicks--this was the only job _in the world_ in my

(albeit unfashionable with hiring committees) specialty in the year i

was applying -- and i was damned lucky to get it (perhaps b/c others

were not so keen on living here).



grad school in linguistics, i think, is just not for the pragmatic!

(i can think of 2 ph.d. friends who are selling real estate and one

who's doing secretarial work.) my advice is: do it if you love it--

if doing it is enough reward in itself. to be more pragmatic, go

into artificial intelligence and work on linguistic problems from

there. or do an ma-tesl.



ok, now everyone can take me to task for my disaffection.

lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 07:16:53 -0500

From:  wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject: Metric? Bah! Humbug!



Dennis Baron was glad that he had an oral thermometer when he was in

France. Sure, and if it had broken then he might have found out what

kind of pain the metric half-system can be. The decimal stuff is just

fine, but going to a 24-hour clock is not enough. One still has to cope

with units of 60 and 24 in going from one point to another. Maybe that's

why I hit the Cabernet way too early when timing out and preparing

Thanksgiving dinner.



Does the metric system lead to the total abolition of knots and nautical

miles? If so, maybe it's not as wanting as I thought.



Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 08:25:35 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Masters programs and beyond



>1) I have to convince my father that Grad School is worth it... I am

>  really interested in Linguistics, which would be my choice for

>  a masters, and perhaps a doctorate degree. However, my father, the

>  ultimate pragmatist, wants to know what the hell I'd do with the

>  degree... aside from teach. I said research, but I really couldn't

>  give him a good answer... Anyone have any ideas?



So what's wrong with teaching? It sure beats working.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 08:48:04 -0500

From:  "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Going Decimal



AHA! Is a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup (not roundish even; flat out round) a

candy bar?

Trying to stretch the prototype.

Dennis Preston (who confesses to liking these awful things in spite of all

the crappy things he said earlier)

<preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu>



>>     As for "Candy Bars", I think it's just another American Slang catch

>> all term for anything sweet to eat that's not a cookie or cake.In Great

>

>No. Yesterday, for example, I went down to the vending machine to get

>a candy bar (I was planning on getting a Milky Way), but I changed my

>mind at the last minute and got a bag of M&Ms instead. M&Ms are not a

>candy bar; a Milky Way is a candy bar. A candy bar has to be a bar --

>a loosely defined bar in that it's possible to have a square candy bar

>or possibly even a roundish one, although I can't think of any examples

>of that. A bag of small items like M&Ms can't be a candy bar.

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 07:53:18 -0500

From:  wachal robert s <rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU>

Subject: candy bar



According to the SHORTER OED (1993) 'candy bar' is N. Amer. for "a bar of

toffee or other sweet substance, a bar of chocolate"

Sounds like Heath Bara and Hershey Bars have the inside track. Like

Lynne, I have not been able to find it in a U.S. dictionary.



Does anyone remember Candy Barr?



Bob Wachal



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 08:53:04 -0400

From:  David Muschell <dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Masters programs and beyond



>>1) I have to convince my father that Grad School is worth it... I am

>>  really interested in Linguistics, which would be my choice for

>>  a masters, and perhaps a doctorate degree. However, my father, the

>>  ultimate pragmatist, wants to know what the hell I'd do with the

>>  degree... aside from teach. I said research, but I really couldn't

>>  give him a good answer... Anyone have any ideas?

>

>So what's wrong with teaching? It sure beats working.

>

>

>Wayne Glowka

>Professor of English

>Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

>Georgia College

>Milledgeville, GA 31061

>912-453-4222

>wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



Hold it, Wayne! I need to answer this one, too. After this sixty hour

week, no pay for four months, and a twenty hour weekend of work ahead, I

must say that if our inquirer above wants to teach, he must be prepared

give many hours of life for a very small stack of our current medium of

exchange.  I have delivered newspapers (11-12), flipped burgers (13-15),

bagged groceries (16-18), worked in a factory (18 [summer]), been in sales,

taught public school, worked all areas of radio, and _must_ say teaching on

the college level takes the most energy, dedication, and self-discipline.

I know you were being light-hearted, but it's been a long month (and this

medium is about the only place I have time to take a moment to say hi to

you even though you're two doors down the hall).



David



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 09:07:18 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: candy bar



So far as I cam concerned, ther are only two candy bars wrth

[worth] discussing: Snickers and (a distant second) Hershey.



Bethany Dumas



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 08:25:16 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: from Lynne re candy



Lynne asked me to forward the following message, which she accidentally

sent to me instead of to the whole list:



> From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za>

> Organization: University of the Witwatersrand

> Date:     Thu, 28 Sep 1995 13:46:13 GMT + 2:00

> Subject:    round candy bars

>

>  A candy bar has to be a bar --

> > a loosely defined bar in that it's possible to have a square candy bar

> > or possibly even a roundish one, although I can't think of any examples

> > of that. A bag of small items like M&Ms can't be a candy bar.

> >  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>

> well, we certainly have roundish--as in round cornered--candy bars

> (baby ruth, mounds, etc. right?), but is one of those big york

> peppermint patties a candy bar?

>

> the reason i was wondering about this (in case you were wondering) is

> that i discuss chocolates with my semantics students here when

> working on mass/count distinctions. a peculiarity of s.a. english

> (the branford dictionary lists this as "substandard"--not every s.

> african does it) is that a bar of chocolate (here: a slab) is "a

> chocolate." i discovered this by accident after assigning anna

> wierzbicka's article on "oats and wheat" which has an extensive

> argument that "a chocolate" is something that you can pop into your

> mouth (other criteria too) but anything larger is "some chocolate" or

> "a X of chocolate". the students, of course, thought w. didn't know

> english. so, i got to thinking about what we do with chocolates in

> amurkin english.

>

> thanks to everyone for all the responses on candy bars and

> measurements. re: centigrade temperatures: the trick is to move to

> a place where the weather is usually pretty much the same, so you

> don't have to worry about it.

>

> lynne

>

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

> M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

> Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

> University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

> Johannesburg 2050

> SOUTH AFRICA



*********************

End of forwarded message. Re "roundish," I was thinking more of circle

(circlish?) than of rectangles with rounded edges. A Baby Ruth is

definitely a candy bar to me. The big, round peppermint patties I'm

not so sure about. They're borderline.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 09:23:08 EDT

From:  Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer

     <owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: candy bars and measurements -Reply



I mentioned Britain going to metric on Sunday in part because I'd also

been told that only the US and (I think it was) South Yemen hadn't

adopted it, as part of the campaign for metrification. I happen to

think the metric system is a fine thing, but I resent having been lied

to _and_ I now wonder how many other countries use something other than

the metric system.



Vicki Rosenzweig

vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com

New York, NY



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 10:17:43 EDT

From:  Arnold Zwicky <zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.OHIO-STATE.EDU>

Subject: jobs and pragmatism



the advice i've given, for thirty years now, to undergraduates

who are thinking about getting a graduate degree in (theoretical)

linguistics is that linguistics is like poetry and mathematics - things

you should get into out of love and fascination, things you *have*

to do, not because you want to get a certain kind of job.

i gave this advice even when there were plenty of university jobs

to be had.



arnold (zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ohio-state.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 09:19:06 CDT

From:  Erin McKean <emm2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Masters programs and beyond



RE: MA in Linguistics



Well, I'm working as a lexicographer with an MA from the University

of Chicago in Linguistics. Do I need the stuff I learned? No. Did I

enjoy getting the degree? Yes. Was it better than doing a BA or MA in

English? Hell, yes!



I find that English degrees in publishing seem to be like

belly buttons. Everyone's got one, so it's nothing special. I find

that a linguistics background while not essential for doing

dictionaries for schoolchildren, is certainly more interesting than

an English or teaching background. And interesting sometimes equals

hired.



Of course, take this with a grain of salt. I've always wanted to be

a lexicographer, and I really enjoyed getting my MA. . .but all

my research for my thesis and my independent study classes were

about dictionaries. If I had to do it over again, though, I'd

probably get a degree in computer science, with a minor in Linguistics.



So I agree with Lynne. If you love linguistics, then go for it. If you

just want to do research with a linguistical bent, try computer science.





Erin McKean

Thorndike-Barnhart Dictionaries

alternate email address: erin.mckean[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]harpercollins.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 09:56:40 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Masters programs and beyond



>>>1) I have to convince my father that Grad School is worth it... I am

>>>  really interested in Linguistics, which would be my choice for

>>>  a masters, and perhaps a doctorate degree. However, my father, the

>>>  ultimate pragmatist, wants to know what the hell I'd do with the

>>>  degree... aside from teach. I said research, but I really couldn't

>>>  give him a good answer... Anyone have any ideas?

>>

>>So what's wrong with teaching? It sure beats working.

>>

>>

>>Wayne Glowka

>>Professor of English

>>Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

>>Georgia College

>>Milledgeville, GA 31061

>>912-453-4222

>>wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu

>

>Hold it, Wayne! I need to answer this one, too. After this sixty hour

>week, no pay for four months, and a twenty hour weekend of work ahead, I

>must say that if our inquirer above wants to teach, he must be prepared

>give many hours of life for a very small stack of our current medium of

>exchange.  I have delivered newspapers (11-12), flipped burgers (13-15),

>bagged groceries (16-18), worked in a factory (18 [summer]), been in sales,

>taught public school, worked all areas of radio, and _must_ say teaching on

>the college level takes the most energy, dedication, and self-discipline.

>I know you were being light-hearted, but it's been a long month (and this

>medium is about the only place I have time to take a moment to say hi to

>you even though you're two doors down the hall).

>

>David



I have done all of the above except for teach public school and be a radio

personality, and I still think teaching beats working. Hi, by the way.



Wayne



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 08:10:50 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: candy bars and measurements



It's *avoirdupois* weight -- the series of units of weight based on the

pound of 16 oz and the ounce of 16 drams (acc. to Webster's 9th). For

gallons & quarts, it's *US liquid measure*, then also *US dry measure*

and *British Imperial liquid and dry measures*.



On Wed, 27 Sep 1995, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:



> measurement

> what do you call the system of measurement that americans use (i.e.,

> the non-metric system). it seems to me i've heard "english", but

> this isn't in my dictionaries. i think "imperial" refers to another

> system altogether (isn't an imperial gallon different than a u.s.

> gallon?). does the system even have a name?



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 08:24:41 -0700

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: from Lynne re candy



Here in the northwest we have a candy bar called the "Mountain Bar" which

is neither bar shaped nor longer than wide. It's more like a lump. Never

heard it refered to as anything but a candy bar.

I would not refer to M&Ms or Reese's Pieces or even Reese's Peanut Butter

Cups as candy bars. At first I thought the distinction had to do with the

fact that the items in question had to be individually wrapped and come in

one piece--but then I remembered Almond Joy, which I consider a candy bar.

Back to the drawing board.

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu



> The big, round peppermint patties I'm

> not so sure about. They're borderline.

>  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 08:42:30 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Phrase



Sounds like a possible British usage -- reversed from ours the way "It's

up to me" in America comes out "It's down to me" in Brit (df Rolling Stones).



On Wed, 27 Sep 1995, Michael Elkins wrote:



> The following sentence was posted in a message on another list:

>

> Have we any garment-district editors who, like me, have nothing better

> to do than chase up ancient usages?

>

> Is anyone else familiar with this usage of "chase up"? For me, growing

> up in central Texas, it has always been "chase down."

>

> Michael Elkins, Managing Editor

> The Advocate, Los Angeles

> melkins[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]advocate.com

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 08:56:02 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Masters programs and beyond



On Thu, 28 Sep 1995, Kev wrote:



> 1) I have to convince my father that Grad School is worth it... I am

>  really interested in Linguistics, which would be my choice for

>  a masters, and perhaps a doctorate degree. However, my father, the

>  ultimate pragmatist, wants to know what the hell I'd do with the

>  degree... aside from teach. I said research, but I really couldn't

>  give him a good answer... Anyone have any ideas?



On meeting my linguistics buddy Ray West, who had just received his BA,

the first words out of my mom's mouth was: "So, what'd you tell YOUR mom

you was goin' to do with a degree in linguistics?!"



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 09:11:25 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Going Decimal



On Thu, 28 Sep 1995, Dennis R. Preston wrote:



> AHA! Is a Reese's Peanut Butter Cup (not roundish even; flat out round) a

> candy bar?

> Trying to stretch the prototype.



Perfect. It's only barely a candy bar for me, if that much. But it brings

up another question. It clearly says "cup" and not "bar" in its title,

which in this case seems to refer to its shape (roundish rather than

rectangular). Now I understand what a "fruit cup" is because it's often

served in cup-like servers; but what does cup mean for Reese's? I guess

not having a vaguely rectangular (even if rounded like Payday) shape

disqualifies candy from being a candy bar. But size has something to do

with this too -- I can imagine inch-long, chocolate covered rectangular

morsels that could not be called candy bars -- even "bite-sized".



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 12:30:37 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: reese's cups



> Perfect. It's only barely a candy bar for me, if that much. But it brings

> up another question. It clearly says "cup" and not "bar" in its title,

> which in this case seems to refer to its shape (roundish rather than

> rectangular). Now I understand what a "fruit cup" is because it's often

> served in cup-like servers; but what does cup mean for Reese's? I guess

> not having a vaguely rectangular (even if rounded like Payday) shape

> disqualifies candy from being a candy bar. But size has something to do

> with this too -- I can imagine inch-long, chocolate covered rectangular

> morsels that could not be called candy bars -- even "bite-sized".



i think it's a cup because (it looks like) you start out with a dish-

shaped bit of chocolate, put pb in it, then seal it off. (i realize

that they may actually start out w/ a bit of pb & put choc around

it, but that's not what it looks like.)



also, it's in a piece of paper that looks like a baking cup.



this is torture, since i can't get them here. think i saw them at a

gourmet chocolate place once for around the equivalent of $3.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 12:52:11 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET>

Subject: Query about Language Concentrations in English Depts.



A colleague at the U of Tenn asks this question:



"Do you know if there are other English departments in the country that

house linguistics or English language programs so that students can

graduate with BAs in English with a concentration in language like we want

to propose? I don't feel uncomfortable sayng we'd be the only ones, the

Wegbereiters, but it seems like a question people will ask. If there are

such programs elsewhere, what kinds of requirements do they have for their

concentrations, do you know?"



Can you help us?



Thanks,

Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 10:33:15 -0700

From:  Sylvia Swift <madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU>

Subject: X-Post from LINGUIST: Varieties of English



i thought this would be of interest to the list.



sylvia, who would rather have a fibar than a big hunk



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Wed, 27 Sep 1995 21:45:03 -0500

From: The Linguist List <linguist[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tam2000.tamu.edu>

To: Multiple recipients of list LINGUIST <LINGUIST[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU>

Subject: 6.1318, Qs: Varieties of Eng, Francis & Kucera, Russian velars



---------------------------------Messages------------------------------------

1)

Date: Mon, 25 Sep 1995 17:57:42 EDT

From: cregan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grovestocktn.com (Charles Regan)

Subject: request for survey participants



September 25, 1995



Macmillan Publishers Ltd. (London)/Stockton Press (New York) is considering

publishing, in both book and CD ROM formats, a comprehensive reference work

that will examine the different varieties of English as they are spoken

throughout the world. We would like to conduct a survey to help us assess

the linguistic community's views of such a work, and would be interested in

hearing from individuals with an interest in this subject area, who would

be willing to complete a survey. If you would like to take part in this

survey please contact Charles Regan at cregan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grovestocktn.com. Thank you.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 13:12:12 -0500

From:  Dennis Baron <debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU>

Subject: Re: from Lynne re candy



re: Lynne's last comments on (bar of) chocolate--

I've been thinking about Peppermint Patties (by York, not Chas. Schulz),

which are round, about 2.5 in in diameter (how many cm?), wrapped in silver

foil....I can almost taste them....anyway, to me they are definitely not

bars. But what then are they? Patties, I guess, though that doesn't seem

like a label I would use in informally discussing them.



Dennis

--



Dennis Baron                    debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu

Department of English           office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois              fax: 217-333-4321

608 S. Wright Street             home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, IL 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 13:25:18 -0500

From:  Cynthia Bernstein <bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Query about Language Concentrations in English Depts.



The English Department at Auburn offers undergraduate concentrations in 5

areas: linguistics/rhetoric; literature; technical & professional

writing; creative writing; individually designed concentration. The

concentration consists of 20 hours (4 courses on a quarter system).

Introduction to Linguistics and Interpreting Texts are taken, in

addition, by all majors (for another 10 hours). The rest of the major

includes 20 hours of electives, for a total of 50 hours.



Cynthia Bernstein

Director of Undergraduate Studies

Auburn University, AL 36849-5203



On Thu, 28 Sep 1995, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote:



> A colleague at the U of Tenn asks this question:

>

> "Do you know if there are other English departments in the country that

> house linguistics or English language programs so that students can

> graduate with BAs in English with a concentration in language like we want

> to propose? I don't feel uncomfortable sayng we'd be the only ones, the

> Wegbereiters, but it seems like a question people will ask. If there are

> such programs elsewhere, what kinds of requirements do they have for their

> concentrations, do you know?"

>

> Can you help us?

>

> Thanks,

> Bethany

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 14:24:55 EST

From:  mai <MAINGR01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject: Re: candy bar



>Does anyone remember Candy Barr?

>Bob Wachal



I sure do, but I shouldn't oughta admit to it. She was advertised heavily

ahem, in the 60s(?). Didn't I see her ads in the Louisville CJ?

This has little to do with dialect or candy.

Mark Ingram

maingr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 14:27:59 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: What Can You Do with a Degree in X



The discussion about what you can do with a degree in linguistics is too

close to the question about what you can do with a degree in English for me

to pass up the opportunity (to share with those interested in reading a

long post) an article I wrote for the local paper last year after someone

in the business school popped off a "humorous" question about what someone

with a degree in English and religion could do for a living. (NOTE:

Knight-Ridder owns the copyright on this piece, so make fair use. I may be

wrong about Jim Morrison's undergraduate education. Our present chancellor

and last chancellor have been English majors.)



By the way, one of my ex-debaters majored in political science but took the

history of the English language from me. She ended up in the linguistics

graduate program at UGA-Athens. She now works as a technical writer for

the state in an environmental office.



Please trash this if you are not interested.



Wayne Glowka











An English major could become your boss



By Wayne Glowka





    When I was in the fifth grade, my parents provided me with a

dissection kit and a book on the colostomy procedure, hoping that I would

become a surgeon and help them with their outrageous medical bills.

    But my interest in medical science soon wandered to paleontology

and then to electronic engineering, interests that later disappeared in the

hormonal chaos of high school.

    When I got to college, I made a decision to major in philosophy, a

decision that left my parents telling people that I was majoring in

psychology--hoping, I guess, that I would get a cushy job prescribing

expensive psychotic drugs.

    When I dropped philosophy and took up English, I became an enigma

to almost everyone I met, especially since I had no plans to be a high

school English teacher.

    When asked about my plans for the future, I would answer that I was

going to become a professor, an answer that left everyone wondering why I

would choose a profession that required years and years of preparation, all

for a job that would pay less than plumbing.

    All of these questions and worries, however, seemed irrelevant to

someone with a passion to read and to write books--whether money was

involved or not.

    And now I teach students with a major in English, a major that is

less than appealing to most other students, especially students who want

specific jobs at the end of four or more years of specific study.

    Now, some of my students, of course, are being trained to be

secondary English teachers, but many of my students--like me in my student

days--have very open-ended senses of their futures and do not necessarily

have specific jobs in mind for the future.

    I am sure, however, that they are constantly questioned about what

they intend to do with themselves when they graduate. Indeed, I am

constantly questioned about what they will do.

    Last night, for example, somebody flippantly asked me what someone

with a double major in religion and English could do for a living.

    At the time, I laughed along with the joke, but after some thought,

I came up with an answer: any job that required a sensitive, ethical

response to the complexities in human intellectual and emotional

experience.

    This person could apply information from a variety of serious

academic areas to specific problems and then communicate his or her

conclusions in clear, concise writing.

    I should have given this short answer: "Well, this person could

become your boss."

    People wonder about what we do in the English department beside

correct one another's grammar and "analyze poetry." In short, our job is

to train students how to apply what they know of the arts, philosophy,

social and political history, the physical and social sciences, and common

sense to the problems of real life as presented in the works of the finest

minds to use our language.

    Such training makes these students valuable in a variety of

careers, and in the last few days, I have come up with a list of jobs that

I know that English majors have succeeded in getting.

    First, many English majors end up teaching in all kinds of academic

institutions.

    Some English majors end up writing for a living, doing either

imaginative or technical writing.

    But English majors are often hidden in other professions. Some,

like John Wayne and Burt Reynolds, become famous actors who--despite the

stereotype of the sissy male English major--have come to symbolize

twentieth-century American notions of manhood.

    One English major I know has become a law enforcement administrator

and a city councilman.

    Other English majors I know have become educational administrators.

 I have personally known a curriculum director, a dean, an associate

provost, and a vice president with English degrees. I also understand that

English majors do well as chancellors of state university systems.

    Indeed, I am not sure that I even have room enough here to list all

of the jobs that I remember English majors getting. But here is a sample:

personal banker, editor, lead singer in the Doors, pharmaceutical

salesperson, lawyer, librarian, Peace Corps basketball coach, chef,

computer center administrator, insurance worker, theatre director, and

television news anchor/reporter.

    Obviously, a degree in English--or any other liberal art--is worth

something.

    Indeed, if a student really had a burning desire to become the

governor of a southeastern state, a secretary of state who negotiated the

end of a war in southeast Asia, or a president who started something like

the League of Nations, I would send that student down the hall to the

history department, where statesmanship seems to be strength of that

discipline.

    But down here in the English department, we have our own strengths.



Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 15:10:03 EDT

From:  David Bergdahl <bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: metrification



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 28-Sep-1995 03:07pm EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614) 593-2783



Subject: metrification





Am I the only one to remember that metrification was well under way in the U.S.

(with some interstate hwys posting speed limits and distances metrically) until

Reagan was elected in 1980 and stopped the conversion process by--as they

say--defunding it?



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens

"Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"







Received: 28-Sep-1995 03:10pm



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 15:18:59 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Language in the Judicial Process: Issue 2 will be online shortly



It's time to mail citations to the editors if they are to be included in

the second issue of LANGUAGE IN THE JUDICIAL PROCESS,

An Electronic Newsletter Now Available On The World Wide Web.



(To access LJP, you will need a World Wide Web browser (Netscape 1.1N

is recommended) and an Internet connection. (If you are not familiar with

the WWW, please contact your computing help center or online service

provider for details.))



Citations should provide full names (not just initials) and exact page

nos.



Mail items to dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ASAP.



Thanks for your cooperation,

Bethany Dumas



Bethany K. Dumas, J.D.., Ph.D. | Applied Linguistics, Language & Law

Dep't of English, UT, Knoxville | EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu

415 McClung Tower        | (615) 974-6965 | FAX (615) 974-6926

Knoxville, TN 37996-0430    | See Webpage at http://hamlet.la.utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 15:39:26 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer <dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM>

Subject: Re: from Lynne re candy -Reply



>I've been thinking about Peppermint Patties (by York, not Chas.

>.Schulz), which are round, about 2.5 in in diameter (how many cm?)

>Dennis



Dennis: about 6.25 cm (inches to cm, multiply by 2.5)



Also, I don't know if it says it on the wrapper or not, but we always

called "Clark bars", well, "Clark _bars_". No dilemma there.



Molly



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 15:42:34 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer <dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM>

Subject: What Can You Do with a Degree in X -Reply



Wayne:



Loved your post about what English majors can do for a living. Don't

forget Joe Paterno!



Molly

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 15:43:22 -0500

From:  Molly Dickmeyer <dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM>

Subject: metrification -Reply



David:



like I needed something else to blame Reagan for.



Molly

dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com





>>> David Bergdahl <bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU> 9/28/95, 02:10pm

>>>

          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 28-Sep-1995 03:07pm EST



   To: Remote Addressee           (

_MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614)

593-2783



Subject: metrification





Am I the only one to remember that metrification was well under way

in the U.S.

(with some interstate hwys posting speed limits and distances

metrically) until

Reagan was elected in 1980 and stopped the conversion process by--as

they say--defunding it?



BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens

"Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"







Received: 28-Sep-1995 03:10pm



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 14:54:42 -0600

From:  "Garland D. Bills" <gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNM.EDU>

Subject: Re: Masters programs and beyond



On Thu, 28 Sep 1995, Kev wrote:

> 2) Does anyone have a suggestion as to where I should go? Is there any place

>  that's inherently (sp?) better that everywhere else?



    The University of New Mexico is better than everywhere else, but

maybe not inherently so.



Garland D. Bills                E-mail: gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unm.edu

Department of Linguistics            Tel.:  (505) 277-7416

University of New Mexico            FAX:  (505) 277-6355

Albuquerque, NM 87131-1196 USA



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 17:56:59 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: What Can You Do with a Degree in X



Here's something Harry Donaghy, my dept head, put together a few years

ago to hand out to prospective English majors. I have a copy online

because I included it in the department's web pages.



X-within-URL: http://www.msstate.edu/Dept/English/names.html



    A PUBLIC SERVICE MESSAGE FROM THE MISSISSIPPI STATE UNIVERSITY

               ENGLISH DEPARTMENT



  Some students who enjoy English courses hesitate to major in the

  subject because they think that few career options are open to English

  majors. Nothing could be further from the truth.



  The stereotype of the English major as a grammar-spouting schoolmarm

  or wild-eyed poet has always been a convenient myth for people who

  have trouble with the first two of the three R's. Like many

  stereotypes, this one has a grain of truth. Some English majors choose

  a career in teaching. And some go the way of Douglas (Hitchhiker's

  Guide to the Galaxy) Adams, Gwendolyn ("We real cool") Brooks, Tom

  (Clear and Present Danger) Clancy, Allen ("Howl") Ginsberg, Joseph

  (Catch 22) Heller, David Henry (M. Butterfly) Hwang, Stephen (Master

  of Horror) King, Arthur (Death of a Salesman) Miller, Toni (Beloved)

  Morrison, Amy (Joy Luck Club) Tan, and Eudora Welty (to name but a few

  creative writers with English degrees). But thousands of English

  majors choose to employ their communication and problem-solving skills

  in a wide variety of other career fields.



  Although it is loath to meddle with a myth, the English Department at

  Mississippi State feels obliged to do so for the sake of students who

  would like to major in English but are concerned about it's practical

  value. By way of reassuring this group, we offer the names of a few

  English majors who have prominently offended against the stereotype.



  Alan Alda--actor, writer

  Russell Baker--journalist

  Dave Barry--humorist writer, actor

  Linda Bloodworth-Thomason--television writer/producer (Designing

  Women, Evening Shade)

  Carol Browner--Head of the Environmental Protection Agency

  Chevy Chase--comedian, actor, writer

  Mario Cuomo--Governor of New York

  Michael Eisner--Walt Disney CEO

  Jodi Foster--actress, filmmaker

  Kathryn Fuller--World Wildlife Fund CEO

  A. Bartlett Giamatti--President, Yale University and Commissioner of

  Baseball

  Cathy Guisewite--cartoonist (Cathy)

  Chris Isaak--songwriter, singer

  Stephen King--novelist

  Paul Newman--actor, food entrepreneur

  Joe Paterno--football coach (Penn State)

  Sally Ride--astronaut

  Joan Rivers--comedienne

  Diane Sawyer--broadcast journalist

  Paul Simon--songwriter, singer

  Steven Spielberg--filmmaker

  Marty Shottenheimer--Coach of Kansas City Chiefs

  Superman (Christopher Reeve)--journalist, superhero

  Brandon Tartikoff--television executive

  Clarence Thomas--U.S. Supreme Court Justice

  Granhma Tinker--TV Executive and Producer

  Harold Varmus--Nobel laureate in medicine, Director of National

  Institutes of Health

  Barbara Walters--broadcast journalist

  Sigourney Weaver--actress

  Pete Wilson--Governor of California

  Bob Woodward--journalist, writer (All the President's Men)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 17:53:53 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Query about Language Concentrations in English Depts.



> "Do you know if there are other English departments in the country that

> house linguistics or English language programs so that students can

> graduate with BAs in English with a concentration in language like we want

> to propose? I don't feel uncomfortable sayng we'd be the only ones, the



Are you including things like TESOL concentrations? An English major

at MSU (that's my MSU, not Dennis's) gets a TESOL certificate by taking

at least four TESOL courses.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 21:51:56 -0400

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr." <billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Query about Language Concentrations in English Depts.



I have not been following this thread, I'm sorry to say, but Georgia has

its Linguistics Program housed primarily in English, and graduates MA and

PhD students with degrees in Linguistics. English Language is one of the

Ph.D. areas within English proper (not necessarily proper English---that's

for the highbrows), and we regularly graduate students on a "language

track" at the MA level. Undergraduate English majors don't get anything

special for taking several language-oriented courses; undergraduate

Linguistics majors can take both theory and more philological courses.



Regards, Bill

******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English (Park 317)   FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Atlas Web Page: http://hyde.park.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 22:00:06 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: Query about Language Concentrations in English Depts.



Thanks

Thanks, Bill -- that is helpful. I'll post a summary later.



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 19:05:10 -0700

From:  Anton Sherwood <dasher[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM>

Subject: Re: Phrase



> Sounds like a possible British usage -- reversed from ours the way "It's

> up to me" in America comes out "It's down to me" in Brit (df Rolling Stones).



(but not Jethro Tull.)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 20:37:36 -0700

From:  THOMAS CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: candy bars and measurements



On Wed, 27 Sep 1995, Dennis R. Preston wrote:



> In the dim past, before I discovered Cabernet Savignon, I ate candy bars. I

> remember eating one horror called a 'Baby Ruth.' It had an (UGH!) peanut

> covering and, as I recall, no chocolate at all.



Dennis remembers "Payday"  "Baby Ruth" Always (and still) has CHOCOLATE



Ask a choc-o-holic, next time!



Cheers,

tlc



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Sep 1995 to 28 Sep 1995

************************************************





There are 19 messages totalling 464 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. What Can You Do with a Degree in X (4)

 2. 3rd Candy Bar (H****** Oilers Fans, Take Note) (2)

 3. Eng Only: US News & World Report

 4. reese's cups (2)

 5. from Lynne re candy (2)

 6. 3rd Candy Bar (H****** Oilers Fans, Take Note) (fwd) (2)

 7. Switched Candy Names

 8. stove/range (2)

 9. Dropping letters from alphabets

 10. candy & measurements - take 3 (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 28 Sep 1995 23:00:37 -0500

From:  Dennis Baron <debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU>

Subject: Re: What Can You Do with a Degree in X



Wayne:



I'd check about that copyright. When I've written for the papers I've

always been told I retain the copyright, even tho it can be construed as

work for hire. When I reprint something, my editors always want a letter

from the paper granting permission. But when the paper is asked for

permission to reprint by someone else, they refer the petitioner to me.



Dennis

--



Dennis Baron                    debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu

Department of English           office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois              fax: 217-333-4321

608 S. Wright Street             home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, IL 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Sep 1995 08:15:37 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: What Can You Do with a Degree in X



>Wayne:

>

>I'd check about that copyright. When I've written for the papers I've

>always been told I retain the copyright, even tho it can be construed as

>work for hire. When I reprint something, my editors always want a letter

>from the paper granting permission. But when the paper is asked for

>permission to reprint by someone else, they refer the petitioner to me.

>

>Dennis



My only experience with reprinting concerned an article I wrote about a

conference on La3amon's _Brut_ in Germany. Since the anthology of La3amon

articles was not likely to make a profit, the newspaper editor saw no

reason to make a formal request for permission from the parent company to

reprint.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Sep 1995 08:16:40 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: What Can You Do with a Degree in X



>Here's something Harry Donaghy, my dept head, put together a few years

>ago to hand out to prospective English majors. I have a copy online

>because I included it in the department's web pages.

>

Please tell Harry thanks for such a wonderful list.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Sep 1995 09:07:34 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET>

Subject: 3rd Candy Bar (H****** Oilers Fans, Take Note)



(uuummmmmm) there is actually a third American candy bar worth discussing.

Not always available outside the South (it is made in Nashville, which

is apparently about to be the home of the ex-H****** Oilers), it is

worth trying if you can get it. It comes in two versions. The original is the

GooGoo Cluster (I am NOT making this up); it is made of peanuts, caramel,

and marshmallow. The new kid on the block is the GooGoo Supreme; it has

pecans instead of peanuts.



A technicality: it is sort of round rather than oblong, but it is really

not a patty.



I had one instead of a Snickers last night, because it contains about

half the calories and fat of a Snickers. That's not because it's less

dense -- it's just smaller.



I likethe peanuts/caramel part of the GooGoo Cluster (the Supreme is not

really as interesting), but I am not a marshmallow fan, so I don't have one

of these very often.



Care packages can ocasionally be arranged for those of you who live outside

the area served by the South (my hostess gift to my e-friend in Sydney this

summer contained both GooGoo Clusters and GooGoo Supremes).



Bethany Dumas

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Sep 1995 07:58:07 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Eng Only: US News & World Report



Greetings ADS friends,



Just when we have cleansed ourselves of our Eng Only discussion,

here's more! See what is being said about it now in the 9/25/95

issue of _US_News_&_World_Report_. The cover story, "One Nation, One

Language: The Battle Over English in America," begins on p 38.







Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Sep 1995 08:06:02 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: reese's cups



On Thu, 28 Sep 1995, M. Lynne Murphy wrote:



> this is torture, since i can't get them here. think i saw them at a

> gourmet chocolate place once for around the equivalent of $3.

>

> lynne

>

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------

> M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

> Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

> University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

> Johannesburg 2050

> SOUTH AFRICA

>

Well, group -- our task is clear, a new raison-d'etre for ADS: if, the

next time we're at the grocery or convenience store, we pick up an extra

Reese's Cup JUST BECAUSE WE CAN ;-), then we can at least think about it,

weigh the options (i.e., postal rate to S. Africa, the chances of it

arriving there in an eatable condition, the chances of someone going

postal while we're posting it, etc.) and perhaps send poor Lynne a bite

of American joy! What a sad state to be in, Lynne!



     --moonhawk



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Sep 1995 11:15:08 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: reese's cups



> Well, group -- our task is clear, a new raison-d'etre for ADS: if, the

> next time we're at the grocery or convenience store, we pick up an extra

> Reese's Cup JUST BECAUSE WE CAN ;-), then we can at least think about it,

> weigh the options (i.e., postal rate to S. Africa, the chances of it

> arriving there in an eatable condition, the chances of someone going

> postal while we're posting it, etc.) and perhaps send poor Lynne a bite

> of American joy! What a sad state to be in, Lynne!

>

>      --moonhawk





a very very sweet (groan) thought, but instead we can just institute

the lynne murphy reese's cup countdown: 47 days til i get to visit

hershey country. if you all haven't eaten all the reese's peanut

butter cups by then, i will definitely take advantage of the

situation.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Sep 1995 08:18:12 -0700

From:  Dan Alford <dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: from Lynne re candy



On Thu, 28 Sep 1995, Dennis Baron wrote:



> re: Lynne's last comments on (bar of) chocolate--

> I've been thinking about Peppermint Patties (by York, not Chas. Schulz),

> which are round, about 2.5 in in diameter (how many cm?), wrapped in silver

> foil....I can almost taste them....anyway, to me they are definitely not

> bars. But what then are they? Patties, I guess, though that doesn't seem

> like a label I would use in informally discussing them.

>

Fascinating comment, which points I think to what the real weirdness is

with these terms. Bar, cup and patty seem to mean very little by

themselves; they have to be modified to make any sense. That's candy, we

can say. But that's a bar, meaning milky way, that's a cup, meaning a

fruit cup, or that's a patty, meaning hamburger, all sound a little weird

since for us the shape of something is not always its primary aspect.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Sep 1995 11:24:39 -0400

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: from Lynne re candy



>On Thu, 28 Sep 1995, Dennis Baron wrote:

>

>> re: Lynne's last comments on (bar of) chocolate--

>> I've been thinking about Peppermint Patties (by York, not Chas. Schulz),

>> which are round, about 2.5 in in diameter (how many cm?), wrapped in silver

>> foil....I can almost taste them....anyway, to me they are definitely not

>> bars. But what then are they? Patties, I guess, though that doesn't seem

>> like a label I would use in informally discussing them.

>>

>Fascinating comment, which points I think to what the real weirdness is

>with these terms. Bar, cup and patty seem to mean very little by

>themselves; they have to be modified to make any sense. That's candy, we

>can say. But that's a bar, meaning milky way, that's a cup, meaning a

>fruit cup, or that's a patty, meaning hamburger, all sound a little weird

>since for us the shape of something is not always its primary aspect.



Yes, the first thing "patty" reminds me of is what my cats did all over the

carpet when they were kittens and had terrible aim. "Peppermint patty" is

just plain gross. I always ask for a mint.











Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Director of Research and Graduate Student Services

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Sep 1995 10:40:16 +0100

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: 3rd Candy Bar (H****** Oilers Fans, Take Note)



Weren;t goo goo bars sponsors of Grand Old Opry?



Dennis

--

\



Dennis Baron                      debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English             office: 217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street            home: 217-384-1683

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Sep 1995 12:08:27 -0400

From:  DANIELLE L LEVITT <dllevi01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: 3rd Candy Bar (H****** Oilers Fans, Take Note) (fwd)



---------- Forwarded message ----------

Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 09:07:34 -0400

From: Bethany Dumas, UTK <DUMASB%UTKVX.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

Subject: 3rd Candy Bar (H****** Oilers Fans, Take Note)



(uuummmmmm) there is actually a third American candy bar worth discussing.

Not always available outside the South (it is made in Nashville, which

is apparently about to be the home of the ex-H****** Oilers), it is

worth trying if you can get it. It comes in two versions. The original is the

GooGoo Cluster (I am NOT making this up); it is made of peanuts, caramel,

and marshmallow. The new kid on the block is the GooGoo Supreme; it has

pecans instead of peanuts.



A technicality: it is sort of round rather than oblong, but it is really

not a patty.



I had one instead of a Snickers last night, because it contains about

half the calories and fat of a Snickers. That's not because it's less

dense -- it's just smaller.



I likethe peanuts/caramel part of the GooGoo Cluster (the Supreme is not

really as interesting), but I am not a marshmallow fan, so I don't have one

of these very often.



Care packages can ocasionally be arranged for those of you who live outside

the area served by the South (my hostess gift to my e-friend in Sydney this

summer contained both GooGoo Clusters and GooGoo Supremes).



Bethany Dumas

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



*****************************************************************************



I must disagree that googoo clusters are a regional sweet. I am from New

York, and I have been enjoying them all my life. And now that you have

mentioned them, I'll need to go get one!





Danielle

dllevi01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Sep 1995 13:46:32 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Switched Candy Names



I hope this switch hasn't already been mentioned.

I've heard that the Snickers and Milky Way bar are reversed in

England (and probably the rest of GB). In the US, the Snickers is

the one with nuts.



Tom





Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Sep 1995 18:02:36 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: Re: 3rd Candy Bar (H****** Oilers Fans, Take Note) (fwd)



Danielle said:



"I must disagree that googoo clusters are a regional sweet. I am from New

York, and I have been enjoying them all my life. And now that you have

mentioned them, I'll need to go get one!"



Obviously, Nashville is more of a (chocolate|peanut|marshmallow) focal

point than I realized. All the way to New York!



Bethany



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Sep 1995 16:23:23 -0600

From:  POLSKY ELLEN S <Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLORADO.EDU>

Subject: stove/range



Is the stove/range distinction purely regional, or is there a difference

in meaning? Also, do those of you living on the East Coast use the term

"swamp cooler" for an air conditioner-like device that cools using

water? (It's very popular out here in Colorado.) I use the term "stove"

exclusively (I come from Philadelphia), but "range" seems to be a much more

popular term out here.



Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Sep 1995 16:21:56 MST

From:  Tom Uharriet <UTOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMN.712.NEBO.EDU>

Subject: Dropping letters from alphabets



What's this I'm hearing about certain letters being dropped from the

Spanish and German alphabets this week?





Tom Uharriet

utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Sep 1995 18:47:14 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: What Can You Do with a Degree in X



That's a pretty impressive list of English majors compiled by Mississippi

State, however, I'm not sure of it's accuracy. While I can't honestly say

anything about most folks on the list, Paul Simon was a history major if I

remember correctly. When he went to Queens College he was planning to go

on to law school if the music didn't work out.



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Sep 1995 18:47:19 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: Re: stove/range



I grew up in NY and have lived in CA for years. I've always said stove -

but I hear range more here. On the other hand, it has seemed as if range

were used more formally, as it were, with appliance stores using it. Kind

of reminded me of commercials using "bathroom tissue" instead of "toilet

paper."



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Sep 1995 18:51:37 -0700

From:  Rima & Kim McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>

Subject: candy & measurements - take 3



I've tried to send this darn thing twice now, and for some reason it didn't

go through. Not that it's the Great American E-Mail Message or anything,

but it's frustrating!



Just read in the paper today, that when the UK changes systems on Oct. 1,

it will be an offense not to change. Retailers will be fined if caught

selling produce by the pound or cloth by the yard. Only beer will still be

allowed to be sold by the pint (Imperial). Somehow, I don't think that

would work here.



As far as candy bars go, if it isn't chocolate, why bother? My feeling,

terminology-wise, is that if it's about the right shape, it's a candy bar.

Who else remembers the Big Daddy taffy candy bars that we got in the movies

because they would last the whole time?



Rima



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 29 Sep 1995 22:29:08 EDT

From:  RENEA C BEELER <rcbeel01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: candy & measurements - take 3



> As far as candy bars go, if it isn't chocolate, why bother? My feeling,

> terminology-wise, is that if it's about the right shape, it's a candy bar.

> Who else remembers the Big Daddy taffy candy bars that we got in the movies

> because they would last the whole time?

>

> Rima

>

    I remember the Big Daddy taffy. My dad has a grocery store back home,

and he sells them. I can't believe those things are still being sold. I

think that the theatre downtown sells it, but I'm not for sure.



    Someone mentioned the stove/range usage. I am from Louisville. And

back home if we want a drink we say "coke". It basically due to the fact that

whatever product is out first, that is the name that you use (ex. Klennex for

tissue or Xerox for a copier). Well, at school, which is a small town, they

say "pop" cause of the sound that a can makes when you open it. I can't get

use to the change. I am starting to say "pop" instead of "coke" because I am

down here more than I am back home and my friends say it.



R.



--



    ________________________________  __________________________

                     |   "Two men walking up a

    Renea Beeler          --|--  hill, one disappears,

    rcbeel01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu |  and one's left standing

    Morehead State University    |   still. I wish We'd all

                     | been ready."--Larry Norman

    --------------------------------  --------------------------



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Sep 1995 to 29 Sep 1995

************************************************





There are 13 messages totalling 321 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Dropping letters from alphabets

 2. Stove/Range (2)

 3. H****** Oilers

 4. stove/range (5)

 5. Switched Candy Names

 6. WWW NWAVE abstracts improved

 7. 3rd Candy Bar (H****** Oilers Fans, Take Note) (fwd)

 8. What Can You Do with a Degree in X



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Sep 1995 00:53:56 -0400

From:  Aaron Drews <drewsa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Dropping letters from alphabets



On Fri, 29 Sep 1995, Tom Uharriet wrote:



> What's this I'm hearing about certain letters being dropped from the

> Spanish and German alphabets this week?

>

>

> Tom Uharriet

> utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.712.nebo.edu

>

    I heard the Academia Real of Spain decided to get rid of the "ll"

and the "ch" graphs. For some reason or another, I seem to remember it

being under some sort of pressure from the EU. The same pressure

probably hit Germany and Austria. I'm just glad I'm not the dictionary

pubishers......



Aaron Drews



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Sep 1995 00:56:35 -0400

From:  ALICE FABER <faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Stove/Range



Ellen Polsky asked:

|

| Is the stove/range distinction purely regional, or is there a difference

| in meaning? Also, do those of you living on the East Coast use the term

| "swamp cooler" for an air conditioner-like device that cools using

| water? (It's very popular out here in Colorado.) I use the term "stove"

| exclusively (I come from Philadelphia), but "range" seems to be a much more

| popular term out here.



For me, 'stove' and 'range' refer to different kinds of appliances. A stove

has an oven underneath it, whereas a range doesn't, the oven being mounted on

a wall. I suspect that interior decorator-speak for what I call a range is

'cook top' or some such (I'm drawing a blank right now).



As for swamp coolers and airconditioners, I can't imagine using a swamp cooler

in the humid east. The last thing we need is more humidity in the air in the

summer (as a rule; this summer a little humidity would have been good, if it

had actually brought rain, and my tomatoes wouldn't still be green on the

vine).



Alice Faber



PS Do I gather from the H****** Oilers comments that Nashville is soon to have

a second professional sports team, alongside the N** J***** Devils???



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Sep 1995 01:32:16 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.UTK.EDU>

Subject: H****** Oilers



The guv is scrounging up money as fast as his little Republican hands

will let him do it so that Nashville can indeed move the Oilers from

Texas to Tennessee. Remember: I did it first!



Bethany Dumas

dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Sep 1995 06:41:36 -0500

From:  Ellen Johnson <EJOHNSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU>

Subject: Re: stove/range



Sorry for repeating everything. This program does it automatically.



Just last week, in order to get help with my pilot light, I had to admit to the

landlord that I hadn't used the oven since I moved in almost 2 months ago! (I

have used the toaster oven, but mostly for canned biscuits and pop tarts, I'm

sorry to say). We agreed that most of the cooking we did was either in the

microwave or on the stove, corrected for clarity,

 if I remember right, to "on top of the stove". I think I would only

use the term range in talking about buying appliances, etc. For some reason,

It seems to especially fit those that are not above an oven.



By the way, teenagers seem to have extended the meaning of the verb "to nuke"

from microwaving to heating of any kind. Did we have this discussion before?



I no longer live on the East Coast, but in Memphis. I'm a native of Atlanta.

   Ellen Johnson  ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu







>From: IN%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" "American Dialect Society" 29-SEP-1995 17:46:58.89

>Subj: stove/range

>

>Is the stove/range distinction purely regional, or is there a difference

>in meaning? Also, do those of you living on the East Coast use the term

>"swamp cooler" for an air conditioner-like device that cools using

>water? (It's very popular out here in Colorado.) I use the term "stove"

>exclusively (I come from Philadelphia), but "range" seems to be a much more

>popular term out here.

>

>Ellen S. Polsky (Ellen.Polsky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Colorado.EDU)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Sep 1995 08:37:58 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: Switched Candy Names



> I hope this switch hasn't already been mentioned.

> I've heard that the Snickers and Milky Way bar are reversed in

> England (and probably the rest of GB). In the US, the Snickers is

> the one with nuts.



in south africa, there is no milky way, but the mars bar doesn't have

its almonds. snickers is as in u.s. when i said something to a

class about the almondlessness of mars, one student (who had been to

u.s.) said "the americans ruin everything with nuts." (pleasantly

ambiguous statement on its own.)



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Sep 1995 08:41:28 -0400

From:  "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA>

Subject: Re: Stove/Range



> For me, 'stove' and 'range' refer to different kinds of appliances. A stove

> has an oven underneath it, whereas a range doesn't, the oven being mounted on

> a wall. I suspect that interior decorator-speak for what I call a range is

> 'cook top' or some such (I'm drawing a blank right now).

>

> Alice Faber



i was about to write the same thing... i'm from upstate new york,

but i think someone else from my region has indicated that they found

it to be a registral difference instead. for me, a stove is a range

(since it has a cooktop), but a range isn't necessarily a stove.



lynne



---------------------------------------------------------------------

M. Lynne Murphy              104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za

Department of Linguistics            phone: 27(11)716-2340

University of the Witwatersrand          fax: 27(11)716-4199

Johannesburg 2050

SOUTH AFRICA



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Sep 1995 11:37:51 EDT

From:  Naomi Nagy <nagy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNAGI1K.CIS.UPENN.EDU>

Subject: WWW NWAVE abstracts improved



Attention all NWAVE fans,



First of all, if you haven't yet received a program for this year's NWAVE

either by mail or by e-mail, and you would like to, please contact me.



Second, if you tried to browse the abstracts for this year's conference on the

WWW site and were unable to because I made such big files, try again now with

the new and improved abstract files. One caveat, they are improved from a

computing standpoint, but they are not entirely up to date with corrections

that have been requested. Those corrections that I have received will,

however, appear in the printed version of the abstract booklet that will be

distributed at the meeting.



Once again, the WWW address is http://babel.ling.upenn.edu/~nagy/nwav/nwav.html



Third, sorry for duplicate mailings.



Naomi Nagy



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Sep 1995 12:56:55 -0500

From:  Gerald Walton <vcgw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>

Subject: Re: 3rd Candy Bar (H****** Oilers Fans, Take Note) (fwd)



--=====================_812509015==_

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"



>Obviously, Nashville is more of a (chocolate|peanut|marshmallow) focal

>point than I realized. All the way to New York!



I happen to have the _Encyclopedia of Southern Culture_ in my office. If the

scanner worked and you get this dos version, here is the entry on Goo Goo

Clusters.





--=====================_812509015==_

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"



Goo Goo Clusters

"A Good Ole Southern Treat," announces the six-pack box of Standard Candy

Company's Goo Goo Clusters. Often advertised as "the South's favorite candy"

and "the Goodest Bar in town," the Goo Goo Cluster has been a candy staple in

the Nashville, Tenn., area and throughout the South for over 70 years.First

created by William H. Campbell in Nashville in I9I2, the Goo Goo Cluster is a

combination of caramel, marshmallow, peanuts, and pure miLk chocolate. (Re-

cently the company has been making Goo Goo Supremes, which substitute pecans

for peanuts.} Though the packaging and distbution techniques have changed with

modernization and company expansion, the ingredients, cooking methods, and

essential southem identity have remained the same.



The Goo Goo Cluster has been a curiosity since its origin. One account says

that Campbell settled on the name because his son, only a few months old at

the time, uttered those words when first introduced to the new candy. Another

version suggests that Campbell was struck with his son's first utterance and

decided it was an appropriate name. Whatever the true version, Standard Candy

Company has contended for years that a Goo Goo is the first thing a southem

baby requests.Along with the Goo Goo, the company, founded in I901, produces the

ever-popular King Leo stick candy, a staple in many southern homes and a common Christ mas treat and gift.

Since I968 the Grand Ole Opry has been singing the praises of the GooGoo, sharing

the wise culinary advice with those in attendance and reaching thousands more

over W S M radio. So closely associated is the candy with the Opry, some have

suggested that "Goo" stands for Grand Ole Opry. Grant Turner continues to let

listeners know how to order the candy by mail, encouraging them further with

the familiar slogan: "Go Get a Goo Goo.... It's Good."

Tom Rankin Southem Arts Federation Atlanta, Georgia

Margaret Loelo, Wall Street Journal l8 December I982; John F. Persinos, Inc.

(MaY 1984).

--=====================_812509015==_

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"





--=====================_812509015==_--



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Sep 1995 13:00:20 -0500

From:  Gerald Walton <vcgw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SUNSET.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>

Subject: Re: What Can You Do with a Degree in X



A fellow (Linwood Orange) at the University of Southern Mississippi wrote a

booklet entitled "English: The Pre-Professional Major" several years ago. It

was published by the Modern Language Association of America. I don't know

whether it is still available. I still have a marked up copy. GWW



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Sep 1995 15:05:38 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: stove/range



'Stove' and 'range' may have originated as a technical distinction made

by manufacturers or designers.  I remember my mother talking (in Texas)

of wanting to buy a range, which I understood from store window displays

or Sears catalogues to be cook stoves (the old generic) with more elaborate

designs, including areas on top where pots and pans could be placed without

being directly over heat. For a time in the mid-1940s we has a kerosene

stove that I think was called a range. The finish on the ranges tended to

be enamel or some other glossy finish. Of course, what I'm saying does

not rule out the possibility of regionality. It will be interesting

to see what others say on the List.    DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Sep 1995 20:30:13 -0400

From:  BARBARA HILL HUDSON <BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU>

Subject: Re: stove/range



re: stove/range

  I grew up in New Jersey and Chicago and we always said "stove" and sometimes

"kitchen stove" although I never knew of any other type.



bhhudson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Sep 1995 21:24:51 EDT

From:  Terry Lynn Irons <t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: stove/range



Ohio Valley South Midlander Here,



Stove all the way.



The occurance of "range" is a new distribution.



Dahlia Lama

--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 30 Sep 1995 21:31:37 EDT

From:  Terry Lynn Irons <t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>

Subject: Re: stove/range



Ohio Valley here again,



Now that I reflect on it, it strikes me that the term "range" may

ivolve an appliance that has a flame that cooks food.



Or else "stove" refers to the oven itself. As in on the/over the

stove, which is the Campbell's soup pans I do.



"stove" and "range" have overlap but are in some ways distinct semantically.



Wilting Flowers

--

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)

Terry Lynn Irons    t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu

Voice Mail:       (606) 783-5164

Snail Mail:       UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351

(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Sep 1995 to 30 Sep 1995

************************************************



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