Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1993 16:37:18 -0400
From: Cathy Ball CBALL%GUVAX.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Diversity of accents
I've just had a call from a Washington Post researcher ... there's a
column called 'Why Things Are', and a reader has written in asking:
Can you tell me why there is such a diversity of accents in the
USA?
(this is a column that answers *any questions* on any topics, including
why dogs bark, why the sun rises, etc.). They'd like to have an answer by
early next week. Would anyone care to have a shot at this? I'll fax the
answers to the Post on Tuesday, and will send you a copy of the column
when it appears. Thanks!
-- Cathy Ball (cball[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1993 16:44:51 EDT
From: Alphonse Vinh VINH%YALEVM.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: Diversity of accents
Cathy,
That's quite a difficult question to answer! Speaking purely and
strictly of the traditional American accents spoken traditionally in the
various American regions, the different dialects/accents are due to the
various immigration patterns of settlers from the British isles. The various
Southern accents were derived from immigrants from the South and Southwestern
regions of the British isles. In the 18th century, the London accent spoken by
the upper classes were also adopted by the colonial Southern gentry and
modified to home use. Other variants in Southern speech can be traced to
migratory patterns of the Scotch-Irish who began to arrive in the American
colonies during the 18th century. Their influence can be seen in the accents
of the Southern hill people. New England was settled by British settlers from
another part of England. Other European immigrant groups such as the Germans
and Irish have influenced local accents in regions and cities where they
came in large enough numbers to be a cultural force. The influence of
African-Americans on the speech of the South cannot be underestimated either.
Before the advent of mass media, Americans probably had more distinct regional
patterns of speaking. There were less movements of people from region to
region, and not only accents but vocabularies were distinct. Of course, the
modern age has broken down a lot of regional differences but Americans still
speak with some diversity thank goodness! Another thing I want to point out is
the conservatism of American pronunciation of English. Colonials tend to
retain the speech patterns of their forebears as they had known it. The
Southern accent is a charming holdover from 17th and 18th century English. The
Norman English, for example, spoke as late as the 13th and 14th century, a
French dialect which had its roots in the 11th century, whilst continental
French continued to evolve and change. One last thing about American accents
that I'd like to stress is the importance of the period in American history
in which immigrants arrived from the British isles had impact on regional
accents.
--Alphonse Vinh
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 1993 20:45:56 -0400
From: DARWIN%UNCG.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: New List: Historical Sciences
DARWIN-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UKANAIX.CC.UKANS.EDU
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Date: Sun, 5 Sep 1993 11:45:08 -0400
From: Cathy Ball CBALL%GUVAX.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: Diversity of accents
Thank you very much, Alphonse! Well put. May I include your message in my
FAX to the Post? The columnist is good about attribution. What is your
departmental affiliation at Yale, by the way?
-- Cathy
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1993 11:46:00 GMT
From: ENG0997[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX2.QUEENS-BELFAST.AC.UK
Subject: Conference on Irish English
FIRST CIRCULAR
INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON
LANGUAGE IN IRELAND
June 22-24 1994
University of Ulster at Jordanstown
As part of the University's 1 0th Anniversary celebrations, the Department of
Communication is organizing an International Conference on Language in Ireland.
Papers and posters are invited that deal with Irish, English (including Hiberno-
English) and other languages within Ireland from any linguistic, phonetic or
related standpoint. It is also intended to run a workshop with local community
groups on the promotion of Irish across communities.
Keynote speakers will include Professor J. McCloskey (University of California),
Dr
John Harris (University College London) and Professor Ken Hale (MIT).
It is expected that the Conference fee (including three nights accomodation, mea
ls
and registration) will be under #100. Reductions will be available for students,
part
attendance, and attendance without accomodation.
Please fill in and return the form below if you wish to receive further details
in due
course. The closing date for abstracts (3 copies of no more than one side of A4)
will
be 1 February 1994. Return form to: International Conference on Language in
Ireland, Department of Communication, University of Ulster at Jordanstown,
Newtownabbey, Co Antrim, BT37 OQB. Northern Ireland. Tel: +44 (0)232
365131x2649/2544. Fax: +44 (0)232-362806. E-mail: febh23[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ujvax,ulster.ac.uk /
fehn23[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ujvax.ulster.ac.uk
PARASESSION ON THE GENERATIVE LINGUISTICS OF IRISH
25 June 1994, University of Ulster at Jordanstown
Preliminary call for abstracts of 30-minute papers on all aspects of the generat
ive
grammar of Irish. Abstracts should not exceed one page and should be sent to Pao
lo
Acquaviva, Department of Italian OR Maire Ni Chiosain, Department of Linguistics
,
Universitv College Dublin, Belfield, Co. Dublin, Republic of Ireland. Abstract
deadline: 1 February 1994.
Further enquiries should be addressed to acquaviv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccvax.ucd.ie OR
chiosain[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ollamh.ucd.ie
International Conference on Language in Ireland
I wish to receive further details
Name:
Address:
Tel: Fax:
E-mail:
I expect / do not expect to present a paper / poster
Date: Mon, 6 Sep 1993 11:48:00 GMT
From: ENG0997[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX2.QUEENS-BELFAST.AC.UK
Subject: Conference on Scots
FOURTH INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON THE LANGUAGES OF SCOTLAND
AND ULSTER
Sabhal Mor Ostaig, August 1-5 1994
First Circular and Call for Papers.
The Forum tor Research in the Languages of Scotland and Ulster
is pleased to announce that the fourth in this series of conferences,
inaugurated at Aberdeen Uni^,-ersity in 1985, will be held at the Gaelic
College of Sabhal Mor Ostaig, on the Isle of Skye, in August 1994.
These conferences have now an established reputation for providing a
meeting-ground on which scholars engaged in research on all the
indigenous languages of Scotland and Ulster - Gaelic, Scots and English
- may profitably exchange ideas and information.
This Fourth Conference in the series will focus particularly on
two themes:
1. 'Let us now praise famous men': pioneers in Scottish and
t.ilster language study.
2. 'Familiar dialects of the meanest vulgar': the social
dimension, past and present.
Offers of papers, on these or on any other aspect of Scottish or Ulster
language study, are cordially invited, and should be sent by 30
November to the following address:
J. Derrick McClure,
Department of English,
King's College,
Aberdeen University,
Old Aberdeen AE9 2UB,
Scotland.
Accommodation for conference delegates will be in the new
residential buildings on the Sabhal Mor campus. Details of the
conrerence's social programme, and of the fee (which will probably be
in the region of 60 pounds), will be announced in future circulars of which
the ne^t will be sent in January 1994.
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1993 08:56:47 EDT
From: Alphonse Vinh VINH%YALEVM.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: Diversity of accents
Cathy,
You sure can use my musings. I am a Fellow of Berkeley College, Yale
University--that's one of my titles. I am also of the Yale Univesity Library.
--Alphonse
Date: Tue, 7 Sep 1993 14:33:40 -0400
From: Cathy Ball CBALL%GUVAX.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: Diversity of accents
Many thanks to those who sent their contributions on this topic - I
have faxed them to the Post, and fervently hope that the result will be
something sensible, with everything properly attributed!!
-- Cathy Ball (cball[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu)
Date: Sun, 12 Sep 1993 20:37:21 EDT
From: TERRY IRONS t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU
Subject: Defining Dialects
As a newcomer to the ADS-L discussion network, I feel it
would be appropriate to introduce myself before I stir up any
hornet's nest that may make me look the fool. I am Terry Lynn
Irons and I teach some linguistics in the English department at
Morehead State University (in Kentucky, where we speaks wif an
accent).
After reading Davis and Houck's article in the Spring
issue of American Speech 92, I have a nagging question into
which I am doing some background historical reading and about
which I, quite frankly, want your help and opinions. The
question is, how do we define a dialect? This question is
at once quite simple but it is very important when placed
in the context of research that disputes the findings of such
luminaries in our field as Kurath and McDavid.
The idea underlying the work of Kurath and McDavid,
it seems to me, is that a dialect is a bundling of lexical items
and phonological isoglosses. Davis
and Houck, in their article, try to show that there is nothing
particularly unique about a Midland dialect area in terms of lexical
and phonological features. They would have us believe that there
is no Midland dialect, only a vast "linear transition area."
In their article Davis and Houck cite an ERIC paper by
C.J. Bailey, who early challenged the notion of a midland dialect.
What Bailey also does in that paper is introduce a new way
of looking at what defines a dialect. Rather than saying
there is no such thing as a MIdland dialect, it seems to
me that what Bailey was trying to do is to point out the
inadequacies of defining a dialect as a "unique configuration
of phonemic, phonic and incidental features," and drawing
upon the excitement generated by the work of Chomsky, he saw
the possibility of defining a dialect in terms of a set of
ordered morphophonemic rules. This is clearly the approach
to defining a dialect that we can see in the recent ongoing
work of Labov.
In a sense, then, Davis and Houck fall into the same trap
as did Kurath and McDavid. They try to say there is not
a Midland dialect simply based on an analysis of 12 lexical
items and 4 phonological items in a limited (yet valuable)
database representing the speech of mid-century. The failing
of their analysis is that they start with no clear definition
of what constitutes a dialect.
Which brings me back to my question after my long
digression (I speak Midland English and refuse to be told
that I am a linear transition), how do we define a dialect?
I may end up using simply the elegant phrase (a title of
an article by Marckwardt) regional and social variation in
English and dispense with the notion of dialect altogether,
unless speaking of perhaps AAE or a Creole.
I invite your responses, your views on what constitutes
a dialect of English, either to me personally or over the list.
I am also searching for discussions of this issue in the history
of dialect literature and any references you could send me would
be most appreciated.
Dialectally yours,
Terry Lynn Irons
Morehead State University
email: t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 09:38:16 EDT
From: Bill Kretzschmar WAKJENGL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: Defining Dialects
Terry's question about how to define dialect is a hot one, and I think crucial
to effective research in language variation. Unfortunately there is no
single answer. For that reason, I think all of us are obligated to reject
easy assumptions and say exactly what we mean when we use the word `dialect'.
Kurath and McDavid do not use any single sharp definition of `dialect' in their
work, though they often described `dialect' in very attractive ways.
I can recommend the lead article in the SIL C. J. Bailey festschrift (1990)
for an interesting recent discussion of the question (by Roy Harris?).
Bill Kretzschmar 706-542-2246
University of Georgia FAX 706-542-2181
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 09:40:49 -0500
From: wachal robert s rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMAXC.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU
Subject: Re: Defining Dialects
Well, maybe you're a non-linear transition. Actually, aren't we all
transitions unless we live on the Canadian or Mexican borders?
Bob Wachal
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 09:56:41 -0500
From: wachal robert s rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMAXC.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU
Subject: Re: Defining Dialects
I always thought a dialect was a set of shared speech patterns that could
be linked to the biography of the speakers, e.g., region of upbringing or
residence, socioeconomic class, ethnicity, gender.
Bob Wachal
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 10:02:35 -0500
From: wachal robert s rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMAXC.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU
Subject: Re: Defining Dialects
Oops! Forgot to mention age.
Bob
On Mon, 13 Sep 1993, wachal robert s wrote:
I always thought a dialect was a set of shared speech patterns that could
be linked to the biography of the speakers, e.g., region of upbringing or
residence, socioeconomic class, ethnicity, gender.
Bob Wachal
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 15:09:21 -0500
From: 00v0horvath%BSUVAX1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Davis & Houck
I am a grad. student at Ball State University and I am coming to
the defense of my professors (if defense they need at all).
I don't think Davis & Houck fell into any trap. The point of
their paper was, if I understood it well, that they operated with
the same notion of dialect ("bundling of lexical items
and phonological isoglosses") and used the same "limited (yet
valuable) database representing the speech of mid-century" that
Kurath & McDavid did when they posited the existence of a Midland
dialect. Using the same data Davis & Houck failed to find what
Kurath and McDavid claimed to have found. This doesn't mean, however, that
their analysis "failed". What they found instead
was a "linear transition".
I think the article does provoke some thoughts about the
necessity for (re)defining the notion of dialect -- but this was
simply out of the scope of that paper.
Dialectally yours,
Vera Horvath
Date: Mon, 13 Sep 1993 15:48:05 -0500
From: wachal robert s rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMAXC.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU
Subject: Re: Davis & Houck
Yes, i know their work and even was the reader for an AMERICAN SPEECH
article. You are entirely correct except that No one has yet said why
dialect is hard to define or needs redefining.
bob wachal
On Mon, 13 Sep 1993 00v0horvath%BSUVAX1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu wrote:
I am a grad. student at Ball State University and I am coming to
the defense of my professors (if defense they need at all).
I don't think Davis & Houck fell into any trap. The point of
their paper was, if I understood it well, that they operated with
the same notion of dialect ("bundling of lexical items
and phonological isoglosses") and used the same "limited (yet
valuable) database representing the speech of mid-century" that
Kurath & McDavid did when they posited the existence of a Midland
dialect. Using the same data Davis & Houck failed to find what
Kurath and McDavid claimed to have found. This doesn't mean, however, that
their analysis "failed". What they found instead
was a "linear transition".
I think the article does provoke some thoughts about the
necessity for (re)defining the notion of dialect -- but this was
simply out of the scope of that paper.
Dialectally yours,
Vera Horvath
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 15:42:26 EDT
From: Robert Kelly kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU
Subject: Re: Defining Dialects
I would like it to be as simple as: a dialect is that form of speech which
identifies the speaker as coming from a definite region, as perceived by native
hearers. As one of the last living speakers of a micro-dialect (Northside,
a pre-turn of the century Englishy New York City pattern preserved till World
War II in some parts of Williamsburgh), alas, I can't define my own by that
simple rule, since I can walk down the street where I was born and be asked:
Are you from England? (In England, I'm supposed Canadian.)
So tell us what you find out, a practical definition (almost by definition
non-Chomskyan, I fear) that at the same time is true to the experience of
living speakers. If it isn't that, what can linguistics be?
rk
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1993 15:10:13 -0500
From: wachal robert s rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMAXC.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU
Subject: Re: Defining Dialects
Why limit "dialect" to region when people frequently speak of social dialects?
Bob Wachal
On Tue, 14 Sep 1993, Robert Kelly wrote:
I would like it to be as simple as: a dialect is that form of speech which
identifies the speaker as coming from a definite region, as perceived by native
hearers. As one of the last living speakers of a micro-dialect (Northside,
a pre-turn of the century Englishy New York City pattern preserved till World
War II in some parts of Williamsburgh), alas, I can't define my own by that
simple rule, since I can walk down the street where I was born and be asked:
Are you from England? (In England, I'm supposed Canadian.)
So tell us what you find out, a practical definition (almost by definition
non-Chomskyan, I fear) that at the same time is true to the experience of
living speakers. If it isn't that, what can linguistics be?
rk
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 11:37:00 -0500
From: Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU
Subject: A Dialectal Insult?
Between kindergarten and 3rd grade in southwestern Pennsylvania
in the early 50's, the worst insult we could hurl at a playmate
was to call them "a white south African cootie." I've been
thinking of using "cootie" and "cute" for transcription in Intro,
but now I'm wondering about the phrase in two ways.
I always assumed that a cootie was a bug, maybe like lice (this
child's prototype of a bad bug). I'm wondering now if there is some
racist origin that I ought to be aware of. (H-m-m, I just now
remembered the game Cootie, with the shiney plastic bug, which was
also part of the same child culture.)
Secondly, I'm wondering if this was a regional as well as age
related phrase. (Adults never used it. When we moved from that
neighborhood after 3rd grade, I don't think I heard it again. But
we moved to a neighborhood with few children.) It was a true
insult--I would never have called it to a big kid or a grown up,
and it was always used in direct address. It never took a third person
subject.
Anyone else know the phrase?
--
Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu
"It's hard to work with a group when you're omnipotent." -Q, TNG
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 13:33:32 CDT
From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: A Dialectal Insult?
Cooties are head lice. And of course references to them are sensitive.
It's an excellent word to use in talking about transcription. Last Friday,
for instance, when I was pointing out that my students has mistranscribed
a [yu] word, I told them I was going to violate all kinds of political
correctness and ask them a question -- Would they rather be a cooties or
cuties? Another good pair is booty and beauty. The fact that the name of the
letter is [yu] makes them think they have transcribed the "long u" when they
transcribe [u]. But then they'd rather be cuties than cooties, so maybe they
will remember the distinction a little better.
It's also interesting to ask them what cooties are. They have some interesting
ideas, going back to all kinds of repressed memories of insults during
childhood, insults just like those Joan mentioned. DMLance, U of Mo
Date: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 22:39:21 -0700
From: "Thomas L. Clark" tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU
Subject: Re: A Dialectal Insult?
Your message dated: Wed, 15 Sep 1993 11:37:00 -0500
--------
--on cooties, cutey!
Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu
"It's hard to work with a group when you're omnipotent." -Q, TNG
A song from boy scout camp included the verses:
Oh it ain't gonna rain no more, no more,
It ain't gonna rain no more.
How in the heck
Can I wash my neck
If it ain't gonna rain no more.
Oh I woke up in the morning
And looked up on the wall
The cooties and the bedbugs
Were having a game of ball.
The score was six to nothing,
The cooties were a head,
I got so durned excited,
I fell right out of bed.
Of course we found the pun on 'ahead' and 'a head' absolutely hilarious.
Sophisticated bunch, those scouts.
-------------------------------------------------------
Thomas L. Clark English Department UNLV 89154
tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 09:34:58 RSA
From: lynne murphy 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WITSVMA.WITS.AC.ZA
Subject: white south african cootie
i showed this "white south african cootie" insult to some of the
white south africans in my dept., and they were amazed. the head of
my dept. tells me that when his kids were going to school in the u.s.
for a time in the '70s, they were taunted for being "african south
africans" (they're white). i wonder to what extent 'african' is now
used as an insult to whites in the u.s.
m. lynne murphy
dept. of linguistics
university of the witwatersrand, johannesburg
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 09:19:52 -0500
From: Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU
Subject: Re: A Dialectal Insult?
I'm interested in the reply from south Africa. As far as I'm
concerned, there was no political awareness in this 5 year old
in 1952 yelling, "You're a white south African cootie." (Was
there a political entity referred to as "South Africa" in 1952?)
I also
haven't heard the insult since about 1955. But I'm wondering
where or how the "south African" entered as a modifier that makes
a phrase an insult. As far as I know, it is not current anymore.
--
Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu
"It's hard to work with a group when you're omnipotent." -Q, TNG
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 12:16:24 -0400
From: "J. Chambers" chambers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPAS.UTORONTO.CA
Subject: Momentos
Readers of the ADS-List should know that two of our colleagues died recently.
Ossi Ihalainen died yesterday, of injuries sustained in a one-car
automobile accident. (This news comes from Sheila Embleton, on
sabbatical in Helsinki.)
Murray Kinloch, one of the gentlest men in our profession, died of a
heart attack in New Brunswick on August 25.
RIP.
--Jack Chambers
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 11:51:51 EDT
From: TERRY IRONS t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU
Subject: More Cooties
An entry on "cootie" may be found on page 770 ov Volume I of
DARE. Term is not listed as a regionalism, but the entry speculates
that the term might be derived from Malay kutu, for a biting insect.
Any thoughts on that? There are no entries for a phrase african cootie,
but a "west african cootie" might need to show up in a later volume.
"Coot" is listed as a clipping for "cootie" and also as a name
for a duck. I know the word "coot" in the phrase "old coot" to refer
to a cantankerous or lecherous older man or some such, yet I see no
entry. Does anyone else have such a usage or am I misremembering
something? Or does this "coot" mean 'lazy, indolent person' and thus
is a clipped form of entry 5 under "cooter" on page 769?
Terry Irons
PS: "booty" is now boodilicous in rap music
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 23:55:19 CDT
From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: More Cooties
I think that cootness and white-collar status can intersect. Even a
professor of English literature can be an old coot in his behavior. And
didn't you (not me, of course) sometimes think one of our former presidents
behaved like an old coot on occasion?
DMLance, U of Mo
Date: Thu, 16 Sep 1993 11:20:39 -0500
From: Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU
Subject: Re: More Cooties
For me, an "old coot" is rustic sounding and means something
on the order of old codger or old geyser. It doesn't imply
lazy but something more like he's (invariably he) been
around these parts a while, he's probably 50 or older, and
he probably was never a white collar worker. He leans on
fence (on a farm or around a construction site) and does
sidewalk superintending. (But he's more quaint than lazy.)
My grandfather is an old coot and he might even actively use
the term. (He is a repository of south midland relics. It is
a dialect, you know. He speaks it.)
I had thought of using coot and cute, but I wondered if anyone
in my class would have heard coot. In North Dakota, a coot
is a little black duck often seen in the water in roadside
ditches, hanging out, just like an old coot would.
--
Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu
"It's hard to work with a group when you're omnipotent." -Q, TNG
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 07:08:44 -0500
From: wachal robert s rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMAXC.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU
Subject: Re: More Cooties
On most occasions, I believe.
I qualify by age, but I'm not an old coot. I'm a curmudgeon. Right, Don?
Bob Wachal
On Thu, 16 Sep 1993, Donald M. Lance wrote:
I think that cootness and white-collar status can intersect. Even a
professor of English literature can be an old coot in his behavior. And
didn't you (not me, of course) sometimes think one of our former presidents
behaved like an old coot on occasion?
DMLance, U of Mo
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 07:12:39 -0500
From: wachal robert s rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMAXC.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU
Subject: air-controllers' goodbyes
On a recent trip from Las Vegas to Iowa City I listened to the pilots'
channel. When a conversation was finished, it di not conclude with "over
and out" but with "g'day". This was true at LV, at Denver, and from the
regional tower at Mpls. When did this start and is it nationwide?
international? I'll do a squib for American Speech after I get some
responses.
Thanks in advance.
Bob Wachal
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 09:50:59 -0700
From: "Thomas L. Clark" tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU
Subject: Re: More Cooties
Your message dated: Fri, 17 Sep 1993 07:08:44 -0500
--------
On most occasions, I believe.
I qualify by age, but I'm not an old coot. I'm a curmudgeon. Right, Don?
Bob Wachal
No, no, no, Bob. One of the quaint characteristics of the curmudgeon is that
he (there are no female curmudgeons) never uses the term to describe
himself; indeed, appears not to know the word. Relish your coothood.
Cheers,
tlc
-------------------------------------------------------
Thomas L. Clark English Department UNLV 89154
tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1993 11:06:37 -0400
From: "David Bergdahl (614) 593-2783" BERGDAHL%OUACCVMB.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
I remember reading somewhere that "cootie" was brought back to the US
from France after WWI.
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1993 09:49:25 PDT
From: Roger Vanderveen rvander[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ICHIPS.INTEL.COM
Subject: air-controllers' goodbyes
On a recent trip from Las Vegas to Iowa City I listened to the pilots'
channel. When a conversation was finished, it di not conclude with "over
and out" but with "g'day". This was true at LV, at Denver, and from the
In my experience as a private pilot for the last fifteen years, "good day" or
even "good day, sir" has been a common signoff message. This is probably
more true after an extended conversation, such as with a regional traffic
controller, rather than with a control tower during departure or landing
(in which case the last three letters or numbers of the aircraft identification
is the usual acknowledgment, e.g.: "three zulu foxtrot").
In civilian flying I have never heard "over and out". (Just another
misconception from the reality of television.)
Roger
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1993 09:54:46 PDT
From: Roger Vanderveen rvander[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ICHIPS.INTEL.COM
Subject: Cooties
In my great uncle's autobiography, he describes the time he spent as a some
sort of group leader in France in WWI. He mentions having noticed lice in
the hair of one of his men, and asked him, "Vernon, have you got cooties?"
Struck me funny, as I'd always thought of cooties as something imaginary that
girls had.
I suspect from this that the term was in common usage in the US before the war.
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1993 12:32:57 -0500
From: wachal robert s rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMAXC.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU
Subject: Re: air-controllers' goodbyes
I didn't hear "good day" only "g'day" and no "sir"
Wacgal
On Sat, 18 Sep 1993, Roger Vanderveen wrote:
On a recent trip from Las Vegas to Iowa City I listened to the pilots'
channel. When a conversation was finished, it di not conclude with "over
and out" but with "g'day". This was true at LV, at Denver, and from the
In my experience as a private pilot for the last fifteen years, "good day" or
even "good day, sir" has been a common signoff message. This is probably
more true after an extended conversation, such as with a regional traffic
controller, rather than with a control tower during departure or landing
(in which case the last three letters or numbers of the aircraft identification
is the usual acknowledgment, e.g.: "three zulu foxtrot").
In civilian flying I have never heard "over and out". (Just another
misconception from the reality of television.)
Roger
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1993 14:35:07 CDT
From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: More Cooties
Yeah, Bob. I take back part of what I said. Professors of English and/or
Linguistics would be curmugeons rather than old coots.
More seriously: 'young coot' would be figurative, but is 'middle-aged coot'
less figurative. That is, is figurativeness scalar, as seems to me to be
the case in terms describing age-graded characteristics. Or is there a better
term to describe the use of 'coot' in 'young coot'?
DMLance
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1993 16:32:53 EST
From: Boyd Davis FEN00BHD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU
Subject: Re: More Cooties
I remember, in elementary school, making 'cootie-catchers' by folding
paper in such a way that you could insert the thumb and middle finger
into the 'pointy-caps' and wiggle the paper up and down. To waggle a
cootie-catcher (they look somewhat like one of Madonna's bustiers) at
someone was a grave insult, and all us girls thought it hilarious.
This may have been gender-specific; I never saw anyone but girls
make or waggle them.
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1993 17:26:34 -0400
From: Scott R Knitter knitters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STUDENT.MSU.EDU
Subject: Re: More Cooties
I remember, in elementary school, making 'cootie-catchers' by folding
paper in such a way that you could insert the thumb and middle finger
into the 'pointy-caps' and wiggle the paper up and down. To waggle a
cootie-catcher (they look somewhat like one of Madonna's bustiers) at
someone was a grave insult, and all us girls thought it hilarious.
This may have been gender-specific; I never saw anyone but girls
make or waggle them.
Perhaps my elementary school was on the progressive side, but for a year or so,
cootie-catcher-making was an equal-opportunity pastime. We boys never waggled
them, but I remember making them. They were compelling in the same way those
plastic 8-balls with the little future-telling window were.
Scott Knitter
knitters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]student.msu.edu
East Lansing, MI
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1993 19:11:00 EDT
From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: More Cooties
Boyd if you'd ever have come across the river to Nawbknee, you would of found
plenty of us male cootie-catcher makers. (I still make 'em for nieces and
nephews and draw horrible cooties on the inside.)
Dennis Preston
Date: Sat, 18 Sep 1993 19:48:47 -0700
From: Donald Livingston deljr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU
Subject: Re: Cootie-catchers
On Sat, 18 Sep 1993, Boyd Davis wrote:
I remember, in elementary school, making 'cootie-catchers' by folding
paper in such a way that you could insert the thumb and middle finger
into the 'pointy-caps' and wiggle the paper up and down.
In grade school in Arizona in the early 70's such cootie-catchers were
common. The inner leaves were inscribed with various messages, while the
outer-lives contained colors and numbers. The colors and numbers were
used to open and close the CC in such a way as to tell fortunes.
Talk about semantic drift!
All the best, DL.
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1993 10:22:13 -0500
From: wachal robert s rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMAXC.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU
Subject: Re: More Cooties
Your examples certainly suggest that figurativeness is scalar.
Bob
On Sat, 18 Sep 1993, Donald M. Lance wrote:
Yeah, Bob. I take back part of what I said. Professors of English and/or
Linguistics would be curmugeons rather than old coots.
More seriously: 'young coot' would be figurative, but is 'middle-aged coot'
less figurative. That is, is figurativeness scalar, as seems to me to be
the case in terms describing age-graded characteristics. Or is there a better
term to describe the use of 'coot' in 'young coot'?
DMLance
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1993 13:44:05 -0400
From: "ALAN E. MAYS, PERIODICALS, HARRISBURG" AEM%PSULIAS.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: Cootie-catchers
On childhood play involving cooties, cootie-catchers, and fortune-tellers,
see Sue Samuelson's articles "The Cooties Complex," _Western Folklore_ 39 (
1980): 198-210, and "How to Make a Paper Fortuneteller," _Cobblestone_,
July 1983, pp. 24-25. Simon Bronner also mentions "Fortune-Tellers" in
_American Children's Folklore_, annotated ed., (Little Rock, Ark.: August
House, 1988), pp. 210. 213.
Alan Mays
Penn State Harrisburg
AEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]psulias.psu.edu
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1993 12:18:16 EDT
From: Robert Kelly kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU
Subject: Re: More Cooties
I have to say a word about the root IMAGE in "old coot" -- whatever else it is,
a coot is a black duck-like bird with a very conspicuous white blaze on the
forehead. That seems to equal "white haired old man" -- so while a curmudgeon
might be any age (at least after you're old enough to register Republican), a
coot is, at least imagistically, of advanced years.
Incidentally, a coot-like bird with a RED blaze is the gallinule---should we
save that word for those who in late life dye their hair to prevent being
perceived as o.c.'s?
Agedly,
rk
Date: Mon, 20 Sep 1993 12:49:04 -0500
From: Anita Henderson HEND%UKANVAX.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: A Dialectal Insult?
I am a black female from southeastern Pennsylvania
(Philadelphia area). We used to say something
gave us the cooties, meaning gave us the creeps. But
I am also familiar with the cooties as lice use.
Anita Henderson
KU Lawrence, KS
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 15:41:50 -0500
From: Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU
Subject: Re: Cootie-catchers
In western PA in about 1957, these things were not called cootie-
catchers. I don't recall ever hearing them named. But we used them
to tell fortunes, by writing a fortune under each flap and
having the tellee pick numbers that we opened and closed to the
count of before lifting the flap to tell the fortune. In the early
80's I taught this to my children in North Dakota.
On Sat, 18 Sep 1993, Boyd Davis wrote:
I remember, in elementary school, making 'cootie-catchers' by folding
paper in such a way that you could insert the thumb and middle finger
into the 'pointy-caps' and wiggle the paper up and down.
In grade school in Arizona in the early 70's such cootie-catchers were
common. The inner leaves were inscribed with various messages, while the
outer-lives contained colors and numbers. The colors and numbers were
used to open and close the CC in such a way as to tell fortunes.
Talk about semantic drift!
All the best, DL.
--
Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu
"It's hard to work with a group when you're omnipotent." -Q, TNG
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 1993 19:47:44 -0500
From: 00v0horvath%BSUVAX1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: Cootie-catchers
Well, I can't help providing a piece of evidence from overseas.
We also played "cootie-catchers" in Hungary in the 70s ...
I don't remember whether we called it by any name. If we did, it certainly was
in Hungarian, though.
Vera Horvath
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 09:45:25 -0500
From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU
Subject: Digests
Somebody recently asked about the digest option on ADS-L. I had assumed
ever since that feature was added to LISTSERV that a list without LISTSERV
logs couldn't use it. I just found out that's not the case and have
set the digest option for ADS-L on now. If you'd prefer to have a whole
day's list mail compiled into one mailing, send this command to the
listserv:
set ads-l digests
--Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 18:39:44 RSA
From: Lynne Murphy 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WITSVMA.WITS.AC.ZA
Subject: cabinet etymology
i promised my students i'd research this for them, so if anyone has
an answer, please let me know:
does anyone know how 'cabinet' came to mean 'milkshake' (or 'frappe'
or 'velvet' or whatever you want to call it) in the rhode island
area? the american heritage dictionary suggests that it might be
from the cabinet that housed the mixer, but that doesn't sound too
definite (and besides, it's not that interesting a story! i need to
entertain the masses!) either confirmation of the ahd or other
etymologies would be appreciated.
thanks in advance,
lynne murphy
dept. of linguistics
university of the witwatersrand, johannesburg
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 14:43:23 EDT
From: TERRY IRONS t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU
Subject: cabinet etymology
When I saw your query about "cabinet," I first ran to my trusty
bible--DARE--where I find the following, which isn't the fun story
you want, but....
1968 DARE File MA (as of 1920s), Cabinet is said by Dorothy
Cahill of Fall River to have originated in a drugstore there, named
by a pharmacist who concocted it. The ice cream was kept in those
days in a cabinet that was part of the soda-fountain set-up.
(p 500)
The terms frappe, milk shake, and cabinet supposedly have
regional distribution. As a youngster I must admit I never
heard the word used with this kind of sense. I wonder if
the word is active in RI vocabulary anymore.
Even though the etymology is uncertain, deriving the name
from the cabinet wherein the ice cream was kept can be explained
as a metonymic process, whereby that which is contiguous is substituted
for that to which we actually refer. CF: The White House announced
today...
Does anyone know what the White House announced today?
Terry Irons
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 14:31:56 CDT
From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: cabinet etymology
The White House announced today that a cabinet somewhere in the world
underwent a great shake-up. There was a great sucking sound, followed
by ffrraaaappe!
In the 1940s in South Texas drug stores had malts and shakes. I think in
other regions the malt was called a malted. What regional patterns are
out there now, and what changes have taken place. Now, with franchises,
blizzards, frostys, and other concoctions are protected by trademark
laws. Has anyone noticed genericness trends in some of this terminology?
I don't shop around enough to do primary research on these items, but it seems
to me that the franchises make them sufficiently differently to keep the
names distinct. DMLance
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 1993 22:03:07 EST
From: Boyd Davis FEN00BHD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU
Subject: how do cooties tell fortunes?
Somebody must be in mid-article, because everything useful in folklore
is checked out. How do you use cootie-catchers to tell fortunes? I'm
used to the monsters Dennis makes, and I get a 'picture' from the 8-ball
that was mentioned - what's the discourse routine? and how did the
cootie-catcher become a fortune-telling device?
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 00:04:50 EDT
From: Robert Kelly kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU
Subject: Re: cabinet etymology
A better story. "Cabinet" is more likely to have meant, in genteel 19th
centuryese, a parlor or small apartment --- Step into my cabinet...---
and thus have been chosen to dignify the premiere (=most expensive) ice
cream concoction, somewhat the way "club" (from country club) was used for
steaks and sandwiches. Thus a cabinet would have been short for (I'd bet)
a cabinet float or the like. We now can at least see Rhode Islanders smug
in their parlors, sipping. The Elizabeth in Providence might give the flavor
of how it was...
rk
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 08:30:59 RSA
From: lynne murphy 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WITSVMA.WITS.AC.ZA
Subject: cabinet
in response to terry iron's wondering about whether 'cabinet' is still
used in rhode island. i do know that it's used in some parts of mass.
still (or as of 7 years ago, when i went to college at umass/amherst).
thought it's not regularly used in amherst, there were students from the
eastern part oft he state who did use it.
also, one of my favorite stories is about a restaurant in hadley, mass
(between amherst and northampton on the connecticut river), which lists
on its menu "frappes". just in case you're an out-of-towner who doesn't
know what a frappe is, they give a translation in parentheses:
'(cabinets)'.
thanks for the research...i don't have a DARE here so your troubles are
much appreciated.
lynne murphy
dept. of linguistics
u of the witwatersrand, johannesburg
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 1993 09:38:03 EDT
From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU
Subject: More cabinets
I have nothing to contribute to the etymology query, interesting as it is, but
I can vouch for the continued existence of cabinets in luncheonettes. On my
last visit to Misquamicut/Watch Hill (a beach resort just over the Connecticut
line), cabinets did appear on the menu, unglossed, and ice-cream cone
buyers could pay 10 cents extra for shots (i.e. sprinkles, jimmies). Maybe it
was all a show for tourists, like the authentic Rhode Island version of clam
chowder (no milk, no tomatoes). As to other regional variants, New York in
the 1950's of my youth distinguished 'malted milks' from '(milk) shakes', and
as Donald Lance suggests, the former (chacterized extensionally by [+malt])
were also regularly called 'malteds', at least in my largely Jewish set. But
the vowel would then have to be more of a schwa ('malted' thus rhymed with
'stulted' or 'exulted') and the stops dental. This phonology was especially
mandatory for performing a local joke of the period, which for some reason
struck us all as hilarious:
GENIE: Your vish is my command.
GUY WITH LAMP: Make me a malted.
GENIE: Pfffft! [puff of smoke] You're a malted!
Doesn't work without Yinglish inflection, or I suspect with cabinets.
--Larry Horn
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 13:12:15 +22305606
From: "Ellen Johnson Faq. Filosofia y Hdes." ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ABELLO.SECI.UCHILE.CL
Subject: tesol and dialects
I'm back on-line after a couple of months with no access to e-mail and it's
nice to be back in touch. (I'm teaching in Chile this semester.) I have a
question to pose to all of you. If anyone has done any work on this topic, I
would appreciate some advice.
I've been asked to give a talk at the annual TESOL conference in Santiago on
dialects of American English. For learners of English as a foreign language,
mwhat do you think is the most important thing for them to consider regarding
lg. variation in the US? Obviously, standard, nonstandard, and regional
standards are topics to discuss. Something about passive versus productive
competence is also in order. What else?
The hidden political agenda here is that of British vs. American. Most
teachers have been trained (and prefer to teach) with the RP model. Now they
are expected to teach American English and are understandably apprehensive
about the notion of multiple "correct" pronunciations. In addition, the
variety their students are most motivated to learn is a nonstandard one, i.e.,
those they hear in movies and from rap and other music. The prescriptivists
nightmare!
This is a subject I haven't researched before and there are few materials
available to
me here. The list has been pretty quiet lately and I like getting mail from
home, so I thought I'd throw it out for discussion. I want to let the audience
know about the interesting speech/cultural differences in a way that can be
helpful pedagogically rather than seeming to add complex demands to an already
difficult task.
Ellen JOhnson ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]abello.seci.uchile.cl
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1993 19:48:24 -0700
From: Donald Livingston deljr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU
Subject: Re: tesol and dialects
On Wed, 29 Sep 1993, Ellen Johnson Faq. Filosofia y Hdes. wrote:
For learners of English as a foreign language,
what do you think is the most important thing for them to consider regarding
lg. variation in the US? Obviously, standard, nonstandard, and regional
standards are topics to discuss. Something about passive versus productive
competence is also in order. What else?
As a Slavicist I'm out of my field in responding to this question, but as
one who has dealt with many non-native speakers of English I imagine my
comments won't be completely without common sense. Some Slavs I have
known have been taken aback when traveling through the South where
pronunciation and grammar differ from traditional text-book presentations,
therefore ...
It strikes me that it would be valuable to comment on the widespread
pronoun "y'all" and its possessive "y'all's". Some references to Southern
US English that I have seen comment that "y'all" is invariably plural; my
experience contradicts that assertion. Certainly there are many places in
Arkansas, at least, where "y'all" is applied to a single individual with
no other individual or group implied.
In terms of general variation of English (not just the South), the
ubiquitous "ain't" should be noted as acceptable in many social circles,
though not in academia nor in formal circumstances. And speakers of ESL
should be made aware that colloquial English changes with profound
rapidity. For example, in Spring of 1980 the first time I heard someone
say, "Do you wanna go with?" I did a double-take, absolutely convinced
that no native speaker of English could ever produce such a sentence.
("Do you wanna go" sounded fine to me, but the "with" at the end seemed
incredibly unnatural. Does anyone out there have an earlier record of
it?) But now the construction seems nation-wide and sitcom-acceptable.
All the best to you, Ms. Johnson, on your upcoming presentation. Hope my
thoughts are helpful, if not in substance, then at least in provoking more
thought. DL.
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 08:09:00 EDT
From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: tesol and dialects
I was so completely focused on the British versus American English for export
question in my first answer to Ellen Johnson's request that I completely
overlooked another resource she will have in Chile (and that any other ESL
professionals abroad will have).
In the mid-1970's, Roger Shuy and I did a series for USIA called. The
Varieties of American English.' It is quite specifically a collection of
materials for the introduction of lanaguge variation concerns to TESOL
practitioners (specifically, non-native ESL teachers).
The series consists of three video tapes (also in film format): Regional
Dialects; Social Matters; and Stylistic Concerns. These films are accompanied
by both a handbook for the local presenter and an audio tape of more examples
to work on.
Perhaps more directly to Ellen's request, there is also a reader (Varieties of
American English) in the series which contains a number of more advanced
articles on the matter of world and local US varieites as concerns in ESL as
well as general articles on other aspects of variation. Each article is
accompanied by a rather extensive set of suggestions for research and/or
discussion.
A local consular officer should be able to arrange for the use of these
materials.
Dennis R. Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 07:50:00 EDT
From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: tesol and dialects
So far as I know the only systematic study of the results of teaching British
English, American English, and 'mixed' English (in which variability was both
taught and tolerated) was carried out in Poland at Adam Mickiewicz University
in the early 1970's. The research focused on attitudinal results as well as
production and comprehension matters. Although there are a number of in-house
and unpublished reports associated with this research, a summary of results is
given in W. Marton and D. Preston, 'British and American English for Polish
University Students: Research Report and Projections' Glottodidactica
(Poznan), Vol. VIII, 1975, pp. 27-43.
Please let me know if Glottodidactica is a big seller in Chile.
The late Harold Allen, Rudolph Troike, and I have all written about dialect
variation and ESL at various times in the TESOL Quarterly (which ought to be
available) and in other places. Much of this stuff is summarized in my
Sociolinguistics and Second Language Acquisition, Blackwell, 1989.
Those things ought to be a little more available, and the TESOL Quarterly also
has some good articles sprinkled over the years on the matter of social and
other aspects of variation and ESL.
Dennis Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 08:46:56 -0500
From: wachal robert s rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMAXC.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU
Subject: Re: tesol and dialects
"Do you want to go woth?" is a loan translation construction from other
Germanic languages and has been common in IA MN and WI (and probably
elsewher) since the immigration from non-English Germanic lg countries.
It is alive and well today
Bob Wachal
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 19:29:00 EDT
From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu
Subject: Re: tesol and dialects
Bob Wachal's surmise that "Do you want to go with?" (and such other glaringly
object-less constructions) as a loan translation form other Germanic languages
is more widespread than IA, MN, and WI is certainly correct. It is a
commonly-known form in Western MI which, of course, has it from Dutch. It is
interesting to note, however, that it seems to be known as a Dutch sub-speech
community form there. In many parts of Wisconsin, it is a norm not suspected
to be German at all. My Milwaukee-Sicilian father-in-law has it but does not
known that its pedigree is slightly differnt from run-of-the-mill standard
English constructions.
Dennis Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 1993 22:18:07 -0700
From: Roger Vanderveen vdveen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETCOM.COM
Subject: tesol and dialects
Bob Wachal says:
"Do you want to go with?" is a loan translation construction from other
Germanic languages and has been common in IA MN and WI (and probably
elsewher) since the immigration from non-English Germanic lg countries.
It is alive and well today
I was going to state that the first times I heard that expression was from a
immigrant from Chicago to California about 1969, when I read the above message;
I then realized that this person had grown up (well, he was about 10 years old)
ina Dutch community there. Dutch has the word "mee", which means "with" with
and implied pronoun. "Wil je mee gaan?" "You want to go with?"
-- Roger van der Veen
.