There are 14 messages totalling 725 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Katie Bar the Door/Get Up and Bar the Door 2. oppies 3. Naming of the "New York Yankees" 4. Get up and bar the door 5. Who's Who Guide 6. Get up and bar the door -Reply 7. Who's Who Guide -Reply 8. RE Get up and bar the door 9. "Michigan Handshake" 10. Katie and A.K.Davis papers 11. ADS Workshops at Annual Meeting 12. Subway Guide 13. RE Subway Guide 14. DITKA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 23:35:34 -0500 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: Katie Bar the Door/Get Up and Bar the Door The folksong about the old couple and barring the door is NOT connected to "Katie bar the door". Title is "Get Up and Bar the Door" -- and the woman's name isn't given. (Nor the man's.) Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Sep 1996 23:58:14 -0500 From: Cynthia Bernstein bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU Subject: oppies This is from page B1 of the Wall Street Journal, Monday, 9/30/96: "Material status symbols aren't about to disappear. They have simply changed as yuppies became oppies (that's older professional parents)." Is that usage widespread? Cynthia Bernstein Dept. of English Auburn University, AL 36849-5203 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 01:10:17 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Naming of the "New York Yankees" "The new team was called the Highlanders, primarily because their ball park was built on a tract of land in Washington Heights, Manhattan Island's most elevated point. The name was never very popular with the fans (nor with linotype operators, who had trouble squeezing it into headlines), and gradually the more American-sounding 'Yankees' became attached to the club. It is unclear when, how, and where the name originated." ---THE NEW YORK YANKEES: An Illustrated History by Donald Honig, Crown Publishers, Inc., NY, 1981, pg. 4. This is the story of how the New York Yankees franchise got its name. For over four generations, no one has known who named them and no one has known why. Now, as the team enters the playoffs, we'll solve it. This project was started earlier this year. In February, I briefly lectured before a local section of the Society for American Baseball Research (SABR) on the "Origin of the Fan." A SABR newsletter announced the publication of a new book--The Yankee Encyclopedia by Mark Gallagher (1996). This would HAVE to have the answer! Actually, it didn't have it. On pg. 326 under "1913" it merely stated: "Now officially know as the Yankees (the name by which they were commonly known since 1903), New York's American Leaguers abandoned Hilltop Park and moved into the Polo Grounds as tenants of the Giants." No who, nor why, nor exactly when. I checked the New York Public Library, the Library of Congress, and the National Baseball Library in Cooperstown, NY. They were called "Yankees" in 1903, or 1904, or 1908, or 1911. The best citation I could find--clearly not the first--was mid-summer of 1904 from a Boston newspaper. The book The Yankees Reader (1991) contains an excerpt of a Sept. 1951 Sport Magazine article on the Yankees by the legendary sportswriter Grantland Rice. "It was in the spring of 1904 that I first saw the New York Yankees, or Highlanders as they were known then.... The American League first started boasting about the Yankees 48 years ago. They weren't the Yankees then, of course. In that first year of their history, 1903, the newspapers referred to them as the Greater New York Club of the American League.... (I'll refer to them as the Yankees from now on, because that nickname became popular around 1908, especially with the newspapermen who had a hard time fitting 'Highlanders' into one-column heads.)" The team's uniforms. of course, simply stated "New York," and manager Frank Chance was happy with just that. In a letter to President Frank Farrell that was published in many newspapers on January 16, 1913, Chance wrote "Wouldn't it be a good idea to call our team the New Yorks instead of the Highlanders, Yankees, Hilltops, Hillmen or Kilties? McGraw's men have a copyright on the nickname Giants, and they deserve it, for they have accomplished big things in the National League. They always will be Giants in the full sense of the word. "Therefore, in calling our team the New Yorks we are not appropriating something that doesn't belong to us. The nicknames 'Highlanders,' 'Yankees' and others are meaningless. In cities outside of New York they attract no attention. In fact, I think that this nickname business in baseball has been overdone. We are going to try to bring New York to the top of the heap in the American League, and we will have 'New York' on our uniforms. I hope the newspapers and the baseball public will call us the New Yorks in the future; also that we will be worthy of the name." In 1903--that very first year--'Highlanders' of course was used, but sparingly. They were the New York club, or the Americans, or the Greater New Yorks. "INVADERS OPEN WITH SENATORS" wrote the April 22, 1903 New York Evening Journal. Yes, they were called the Invaders! The Evening Journal (owned by one William Randolph Hearst) regularly used "Invaders" that first year; so did the New York Evening World. Then, in the spring of 1904, the Evening Journal started using "Highlanders" as the team began practicing in the South. The Atlanta Constitution of 14 March 1904 called them the "New York Team" and the "New York Americans." The Richmond Times-Dispatch of 8 April 1904 called them the "New Yorkers." The New Orleans Daily Picayune of a week before used all three of these names. The Atlanta Constitution of 17 March 1904 mentioned that they were the "Gothamites." No one in the South--in print, at least--called them "Yankees." On April 6, 1904, William Randolph Hearst's Evening Journal ran an editorial called "Are We Really 'The Ungrateful Yankees?" It continued: "The Moscow Gazette publishes a historical review of the relations between Russia and America, and remarks: "Henceforth the Americans will be styled 'the ungrateful Yankees!'" Moscow's view was that it was losing a war with Japan and needed the United States' help. Hearst's view was that we like the Russian people, but we don't like the Czar, so we ain't helpin' ya. On April 7, 1904, pg. 15, the gold mine appeared! A wrestling article is headlined "RUSSIAN LION DODGES YANKEE." A photo header reads "CONROY AND BROWNE, WHO LEAD BATTING LISTS OF GOTHAM NINES./CONROY, OF THE AMERICANS./BROWNE, OF THE GIANTS." In the middle of this is "HIGHLANDERS CANCEL GAMES. The games between the New York American League team and the nines of Columbia and Manhattan Colleges scheduled for to-morrow and Saturday have been called off...." And then, on the far right hand side of the page: "YANKEES WILL START HOME FROM SOUTH TO-DAY. RICHMOND, Va., April 7.--The Highlanders and Montreals play here again this afternoon. After the game the New Yorkers will jump aboard a train bound for Gotham and their training trip in the South will be over...." In this one page we have Gotham Nines, New York American League Team, Americans, Highlanders, and for the first time ever, "Yankees." The top of the page states that the sports section is "Written by Experts and Edited for the EVENING JOURNAL by HARRY BEECHER." On April 13, 1904, a pre-season score of the "YANKEES" made the top of page one. The season opener was that day. The next day, April 14, 1904, in three-inch type that you can see across a room, there appeared "YANKEES BEAT BOSTON." The Yankees were born that month, in a Hearst newspaper, care of "Harry Beecher." I have written to the Harriet Beecher Stowe house in Hartford, Ct., and this person's full name was "Henry Ward Beecher." He was the grandson of the Preacher Henry Ward Beecher, and the grand-nephew of Harriet Beecher Stowe, who wrote Uncle Tom's Cabin. Unfortunately, he is no longer with us to explain the naming. In American Speech of about fifty years ago (Dec. 1947), H. L. Mencken wrote a piece called "Names For Americans." On pp. 251-252 about Connecticut names, "...a correspondent named Larry B. Murphy suggested _Connectican_,but admitted that he had never heard citizens of Connecticut called anything save 'just plain _Yankees_.'" It is interesting to compare the "Connecticut Yankee" and its influence on the "New York Yankees." Anyone who has been to the Harriet Beecher Stowe house in Hartford knows that Mark Twain's house is right next door. Perhaps Twain's last major novel was A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, which Harry Beecher had surely read. Twain was a famous speaker, and he had often watched little Harry Beecher's grandfather's sermons. It was also a Beecher preacher who conducted Mark Twain's marriage. Mark Twain held the publishing rights to Henry Ward Beecher's autobiography, but Beecher died before completing it. I would very much like help in contacting any surviving Beechers. We can learn much about what Harry Beecher thought, and why he named the team as he did. There's not a moment to lose in these matters. New York City newspapers and politicans can help greatly. A final note concerns the Yankee pinstripes. These were added in 1911--before the team name became official. This comes from GALAXY, 15 Sept. 1866, pp. 189-190: The origin of the air, and we believe of the words, of "Yankee Doodle" is yet undiscovered. We venture to assert, however, that we have found the origin of one of the most striking passages in that wonderful performance--to wit, of these lines: 'Yankee Doodle went to town And wore his striped trouses; Said he couldn't see the town There was so many houses." The questions cannot but present themselves--nay, without doubt have presented themselves, somewhat importunately to the minds of men for nearly three-quarters of a century--Why should "Yankee Doodle," at a time when breeches were almost your only wear, have indued himself with striped trousers? and as no town was so large in this country before 1776 as to suggest that wonderful assertion with which this stanza closes, whence did the author get this idea? To the last question there is this very sufficient answer: He got it, directly or indirectly, from Etienne Tabourot, Seigneur d'Accords. This gentleman published, among other trifles, the "Apophthegmes du Sieur Gaulard," which appeared in 1586. The Sieur Gaulard is represented as a rustic-bred, blundering gentleman, not without drollery and mother with. Among his sayings is this one, uttered, the author tells us, as he was passing through Paris: Chascun me disoit que je verrois une si grande et belle ville; mais on se mocquait bien de moi; car on ne la peut a cause de la multitude des maisons qui empeschent la veue. That is, Everyone told me that I should see such a large and beautiful city; but they were making fun of me; for one could not see the town by reason of the multitude of houses which hid the view. This is unmistakably the origin of the stanza of "Yankee Doodle" above quoted. It is indeed so probable as to be almost certain that the author of "Yankee Doodle" never read or even heard of the "Apophthemes" of Gaulard. But the story we may be sure had been handed down verbally from Tabourot's time to that of our author, and the latter had heard it, and remembering it, used it in this stanza. And as in poetry of much more pretension than "Yankee Doodle" one couplet is often written for sense and one for rhyme, it is more than probable that the need of a rhyme for "houses" caused the hero of the song to be indued with those striped trousers which he still preserves in all caricatures--the more that he thereby seems, like Kirby, to wrap himself up in the American flag. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- My papers on this subject are in the National Baseball Library in Cooperstown, NY. Public services librarian Tim Wiles thanked me for them. Copies were also sent to Lawrence Ritter, who told me that he'll update his "Yankees" entry in the Encyclopedia of New York CIty. He also stated that he enjoyed a recent New York Times article about me concerning "Miss Manhattan." Finally, papers were sent months ago to New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, who's contemplating building a new stadium for the Yankees that could cost taxpayers half a billion dollars. He never wrote back. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 03:51:29 +1608 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Get up and bar the door From ENGLISH AND SCOTTISH POPULAR BALLADS, ed. Helen Child Sargent and George Lyman Kittredge (Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co., 1904, 1932), pp. 600-601. ------------------ GET UP AND BAR THE DOOR This tale is one of a group which may or may not have had a single archetype. Of the varieties, that which comes nearest is the first story in Straparola's Eighth Day. The story is well known in the East (see, for example Forty Vezirs, Gibb, p. 171) and elsewhere (see Crane, Italian Popular Tales, p. 284). a. Herd, 'Get up and bar the Door,' The Ancient and Modern Scots Songs, 1769, p. 330; Ancient and Modern Scottish Songs, 177ff, 159. b. [Pinkerton], Select Scotish Ballads 1783, II, 150. 1 IT fell about the Martinmas time, And a gay time it was then, When our good wife got puddings to make, And she's boild them in the pan. 2 The wind sae cauld blew south and north, And blew into the floor; Quoth our goodman to our goodwife, 'Gae out and bar the door.' 3 'My hand is in my hussyfskap, Goodman, as ye may see; An it should nae be barrd this hundred year, It's no be barrd for me.' 4 They made a paction tween them twa, They made it firm and sure, That the first word whaeer shoud speak, Shoud rise and bar the door. 5 Then by there came two gentlemen, At twelve o clock at night, And they could neither see house nor hall Nor coal nor candle-light. 6 'Now whether is this a rich man's bouse, Or whether is it a poor?' But neer a word wad ane o them speak, For barring of the door. 7 And first they ate tbe white puddings, And then they ate the black; Tho muckel thought the goodwife to hersel, Yet neer a word she spake. 8 Then said the one unto the other, 'Here, man, tak ye my knife; Do ye tak aff the auld man's beard, And I'll kiss the goodwife.' 9 'But there 's nae water in the house, And what shall we do than?' 'What ails ye at tbe pudding-broo, That boils into the pan?' 10 O up then started our goodman, An angry man was he: 'Will ye kiss my wife before my een, And scad me wi pudding-bree?' 11 Then up and started our goodwife, Gied three skips on the floor: 'Goodman, you've spoken tbe foremost word Get up and bar tbe door.' B 'John Blunt,' Macmath MS., p. 74. "From the singing of Miss Jane Webster, 15th Octo- ber, 1886, and 20th August, 1887, who learned in in Airds of Kells, Kirkendbrightshire, many years ago, from James McJannet." 1 THERE leeved a wee man at the fit o yon hill, John Blunt it was his name, O And he selld liquor aud ale o the best And bears a wondrous fame. O Tal lara ta lilt, tal lare a lilt, Tal lara ta lilt, tal lara 2 The win it blew frae north to south It blew into the floor; Says auld John Blunt to Janet the wife Ye maun rise up and bar the door. 3 'My hans are in my husseyskep, I canna weel get them free And if ye dinna bar it yersel It'll never be barred by me.' 4 They made it up atween them twa, They made it unco sure That the ane that spoke the foremost word Was to rise and bar the door. 5 There was twa travellers travelling late, Was travelling cross the muir And they cam unto wee John Blunt's Just by the light o the door. 6 'O whether is this a rich man's house Or whether is it a puir?' But never a word would the auld bodies speak, For the barring o the door. 7 First they bad good een to them, And syne they bad good morrow; But never a word would the auld bodies speak, For the barring o the door, O. 8 First they ate the white puddin, And syne they ate the black, And aye the auld wife said to hersel May the deil slip doun wi that! 9 And next they drank o the liquor sae strong, And syne they drank o the yill: 'Now since we hae got a house o our ain I'm sure we may tak our fill.' 10 It's says the ane unto the ither, Here, man, tak ye my knife, An ye 'll scrape aff the auld man's beard While I kiss the gudewife. 11 'Ye hae eaten my meat, ye hae drucken my drink, Ye'd make my auld wife a whore!' 'John Blunt, ye hae spoken the foremost word, Ye maun rise up and bar the door.' ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 09:06:26 -0400 From: Mail Man Djsa121851[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Who's Who Guide If you would like a copy of the 1997 edition of the Who's Who Guide, which is packed with hundreds of WWW Sites from all over the world, then just visit....... http://206.136.141.254 If you have a web site you would like to list in the 1997 edition of the Who's Who Guide, go to our Registration Site.......... http://206.136.141.254/register.htm If you need to set up a Web Site of your own, and you need a Web Host, telnet://206.136.141.254 We also offer a one week FREE TRIAL. You'll also get FULL INTERNET and thousands of SHAREWARE GAMES! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 09:56:26 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Get up and bar the door -Reply Whee! Thanks, Donald. Does that source include music as well? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 10:06:48 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Who's Who Guide -Reply AOL has a mailbox for spam complaints: abuse[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com. I have forwarded this degraded lunchmeat to that address, with the following version of my usual intro: This junk mail was sent to the American Dialect Society email list. Please eviscerate the sender. Thank you. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 10:21:23 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Get up and bar the door That's it! As good as I remember, too. Sorry it's not got our K-k-k-katie, beautiful Katie, in it, but I nice break in the morning nonetheless. Thanks. Grant Barrett ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:20:22 -0400 From: Elizabeth Gibbens gibbens[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NYTIMES.COM Subject: "Michigan Handshake" A few months ago, Ann Landers included in her column the phrase "Michigan handshake." She received 5,000 letters on the expression, and Mr. Safire has decided to write about it. Does anyone know anything about its meaning or coinage? Ms. Landers reports hearing it in the Traverse City, MI, area. I've called several Michigan English and American Studies Departments, and I've had no luck. Please share your ideas--thanks. Elizabeth Gibbens Research Assistant Mr. William Safire, The New York Times ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 11:57:42 -0400 From: "Winfield, Laurie" lwinfield[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HUNTON.COM Subject: Katie and A.K.Davis papers For those looking for the old ballads that could shed light on Katie and her door, A.K. Davis might point the way with the wax recordings he collected in the field and other achives. The information below was tracked down by Kitty Williams of WebPointers, not a member of this list but one who finds Katie's story fascinating. lwinfield[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hunton.com ---------- From: Kitty Williams To: Winfield, Laurie Cc: Lind, Robin Subject: Location of A.K.D.'s papers Date: Tuesday, October 01, 1996 9:12AM I decided to look a little further, and I found it: A. K. Davis Papers, Accession #9829, (in Manuscripts Division): Arthur Kyle Davis(1897-1972) was a former UV English professor and archivist for the Virginia Folklore Society. The Davis papers include the ballads collected by the Folklore Society, typescripts of Davis' books about folk music, various folklore files, correspondence about collecting, and recordings of Virginians singing the ballads handed down to them (the A. K. Davis collection of field-recorded Virginia music is housed in the Kevin Barry Perdue Archive of Traditional Culture). Finding Aid: A reference guide is available (location: control folder). The Kevin Barry Perdue Archive of Traditional Culture, Accession #10493, (housed and maintained ln Brooks Hall, room 303): A collection of textual, audio, and visual materials related primarily to the folk culture of Virginia. Includes 300 33-1/3 rpm records Anglo-American and African-American music (early "country" and "race" music), the A. K. Davis collection of field-recorded Virginia music, and 65 original field-recorded tapes of African American secular and church music recorded in Rappahannock-Culpeper County, Virginia, 1966-1972. http://www.lib.virginia.edu/MusicLib/cannon.html Kitty ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 14:04:32 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: ADS Workshops at Annual Meeting WORKSHOPS IN STATISTICAL METHODS FOR LINGUISTIC ANALYSIS Sponsored by the AMERICAN DIALECT SOCIETY January 2, 1997 Chicago, Illinois Sheraton Chicago Hotel and Towers LINGUISTIC SOCIETY OF AMERICA ANNUAL MEETING The American Dialect Society, to celebrate its first general meeting held jointly with LSA, is sponsoring six workshops on the quantificational (statistical) treatment of a variety of kinds of linguistic data. Each workshop, conducted by an internationally-recognized authority, will be presented twice, and participants may attend the full day's sessions, attending as many as four different workshops. These workshops are open to all who register for the LSA meeting and are free of charge (except for a small fee for some workshops in which materials are distributed). There will be a limit on participation in these workshops. If you want to be assured a place, please send a letter, enclosing a self-addressed stamped post card, to American Dialect Society Allan Metcalf, Executive Secretary English Department MacMurray College Jacksonville, Illinois 62650 or an e-mail message to him at AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com For each workshop you wish to attend, please list the name of the presenter and the time (e.g., Kretzschmar 8:00, Finegan 1:30). Do not forget the time, since each workshop will be given twice. The workshops were organized by Dennis Preston of Michigan State University. Schedule: 8:00-10:00 Kretzschmar Cichocki Berdan 10:30-12:30 Bayley Labov Berdan 1:30-3:30 Bayley Finegan Cichocki 4:00-6:00 Labov Kretzschmar Finegan THE WORKSHOPS: 1) VARBRUL analysis of linguistic variation Robert Bayley University of Texas, San Antonio This session will provide a rationale for and demonstration of the VARBRUL computer programs (Pintzuk 1988; Rand and Sankoff, 1990; Sankoff 1988). The demonstration uses data from a study of consonant cluster reduction in Mexican-American English (Bayley 1994) and relative pronoun choice in speech and writing (Guy and Bayley, 1995) to show the steps in the heuristic process of hypothesis generation, testing, and revision as it is carried out with the help of VARBRUL, including the following: 1) generating initial hypotheses to account for observed variation; 2) coding the data for the potentially large number of independent factors affecting variation; 3) conducting the initial VARBRUL run and interpreting the factor probabilities generated; 4) recoding the data to refine hypotheses on the basis of factor probabilities generated in step 3; 5) testing of significance of individual factors and factor groups by means of log likelihood estimation. In addition, the workshop will consider several questions that are likely to arise when conducting a VARBRUL analysis, including dealing with suspected interaction among factors and choosing between competing analyses. 2) The analysis of vowel systems William Labov University of Pennsylvania This workshop will deal with the display and analysis of vowel formant data, with particular emphasis on the study of change in progress, through use of the Macintosh program PLOTNIK 03. Workshop participants should have a body of formant measurements in hand, or the opportunity to acquire them, through the use of such programs as Kay Elemetric CSL, Eric Keller's Signalyze, GSW Soundscope, or Cornell Ornithology Lab's Canary. The workshop will show how vowel tokens are plotted, normalized, and automatically analyzed for segmental environment; how relevant sub-sets of vowels may be selected, plotted or highlighted; how means and standard deviations are plotted; how to carry out t-tests on the difference of any two means; how subsets of vowels may be plotted or highlighted by any combination of segmental environment, stress, or style. Particular attention will be given to methods for determining the extent to which vowel systems participate in the Northern Cities Shift, the Southern Shift, the Canadian Shift, or the low back merger. Participants will receive copies of PLOTNIK 03 along with tutorial and full documentation. PLOTNIK 03 includes several dozen features introduced following the NWAVE 24 workshop with PLOTNIK 02, including adaptation to other languages, shift from color to black and white, and the addition of vectors from nuclei to glide targets. In addition, methods for superimposing large numbers of vowel systems will be introduced through the use of the program PLOTNIK MAJOR 3) Computer plotting and mapping of areal linguistic data William A. Kretzschmar, Jr. University of Georgia This session will present a discussion of methods of computer plotting and mapping of linguistic data drawn from American Linguistic Atlas surveys. We will begin with the basic issues of the possible relationships between linguistic data and geographical locations, and of the nature of GIS (Geographical Information Systems). Computer plotting, and generalizations to be made from observation of plots, will be illustrated with the Graphic Plotter Grid from the Linguistic Atlas of the Gulf States, the LAMSASplot program from the Linguistic Atlas of the Middle and South Atlantic States (LAMSAS), and the LAMSAS Internet plotter. We will then consider use of statistical procedures to assess geographical distribution of linguistic features drawn from LAMSAS: t-test, chi-square, and multiple comparison for fixed regions; spatial autocorrelation; and density estimation. Finally, we will consider uses of GIS software to assist in visualization of distributions. 4) Advanced multivariate analyses of linguistic data Robert Berdan California State University Long Beach. This session will focus principally on logistic regression, the general statistical approach underlying VARBRUL analyses. The generalized application is particularly useful for data sets that are well described by both categorical and continuous variables, a frequent situation both for language acquisition and for historical data sets, in which time is best considered as a continuous variable, but various linguistic and demographic characteristics are categorical (or continuous). The SPSS implementation of logistic regression will be demonstrated in the workshop. The workshop will demonstrate the progression of analysis from text files to reportable graphics and statistics. Topics considered will be the optimizing coding to the data set, hypothesis developing and testing, evaluating competing analyses, treatment of interactions among factors, and the interpretation of error and reliability. We will also compare assumptions of continuous change over time, versus discontinuities and restructuring. The SPSS graphics tools will be explored both as analytic techniques and for reporting findings. Where comparable, SPSS reporting will be converted to VARBRUL terms. 5) Factor analytic procedures in language analysis Ed Finegan University of Southern California In its linguistic applications, the statistical technique called factor analysis can be used to uncover patterned variation by deriving a relatively small set of underlying variables (called 'factors') from large sets of variable linguistic features. The workshop demonstrates the use of this technique for identifying factors that underlie large-scale variation of linguistic features across texts and for interpreting those factors as linguistic constructs (usually called 'dimensions'). Also included: the Promax rotation technique for minimizing the number of factors on which any linguistic feature loads; appropriateness of factor analysis to different kinds of linguistic investigations; pros and cons of factor analysis for linguistic inquiry in general. 6) Correspondence (Dual Scaling) Analysis Wladyslaw Cichocki University of New Brunswick This session demonstrates correspondence analysis (CA), a statistical technique which is closely related to multidimensional scaling and factor analysis. CA is particularly helpful in studying the type of categorical, ordinal and frequency data commonly found in empirical linguistic investigations. While CA is predominantly a data exploratory technique, it can be used to formulate hypotheses. The presentation will avoid complicated algebraic formulas and will emphasize instead the simple graphical displays that are used to interpret and understand data structure. Applications will be chosen from dialectology, phonetics, sociolinguistics and syntax. Discussion will include issues of interpretation, stability and statistical significance as well as a review of available computer software. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 14:59:00 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: Subway Guide Cindy said: So, Grant, does this mean you can help me find the right subway stops when I go orienteering my way through Noo Yawk City next summer? Absolutely! I hereby volunteer to be your personal guide, except if I'm in South America. What are you going to be doing in New York City? The best way to see the Statue of Liberty is to take a boat by the island, rather than to it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 15:33:30 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Subway Guide Erp. Did it again. Sorry. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Oct 1996 22:43:58 -0500 From: "Albert E. Krahn" krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US Subject: DITKA DITKA could stand for "double income, two kinds, and an animal" but I doubt it. akra Al Krahn Milwaukee Area Technical College 700 W. State St. Milwaukee WI 53233 414 /W297-6519/F297-7990/H476-4025 Owner PUNCT-L : a mailing list for discussing punctuation. Send for subscription instructions. krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]milwaukee.tec.wi.us !()":;'?.,!-!()-'";:?.,!-)("':;?.,!-)('";:?.,!-_)("':;?.,!_-)("':;?.,!-) ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Sep 1996 to 1 Oct 1996 *********************************************** There are 6 messages totalling 104 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. DITKA -Reply 2. Chinese Fire Drill 3. pojo fly 4. Get up and bar the door -Reply 5. trade-like and trade-last (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 10:11:03 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: DITKA -Reply Albert E. Krahn krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US 1001.2243 wrote DITKA could stand for "double income, two kinds, and an animal" but I doubt it. Hmm... could the "a" be epenthetic to make it pronounceable? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 11:05:51 EDT From: "Timothy M. Ennis" 72120.2224[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: Re: Chinese Fire Drill While I don't claim to know the origin of Chinese Fire Drill, I can attest to its popular use on Wall Street in the 1980's. It was used to describe a situation where some piece of news would cause the market to lurch violently in one direction. Then as traders were buying at the highs a reinterprtation of the original info would cause massive selling as traders liquidated and tried to get short at the bottom. Finally the market would reorient itself to unchanged prices with traders licking their wounds and counting their losses. This type of market action was also called "pigs in space." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 14:47:31 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: pojo fly Is anyone familiar with "pojo fly" (probably for "Poor Joe fly"), in reference to a large fly that swarms around carrion? We have other evidence for "Poor Joe" for two plants and two birds, but just a single cite for the fly. Any information will be appreciated. Joan Hall, DARE jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 15:00:16 +1608 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Get up and bar the door -Reply Whee! Thanks, Donald. Does that source include music as well? No, no music. Just lots of Child ballads (songs from a larger collection done by Francis James Child, with numbers that have become standard references to the old English/Scottish border ballads). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 12:18:24 EDT From: Orin Hargraves 100422.2566[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: trade-like and trade-last Many years ago my stepmother said she had a "trade-like" for me. I'd never heard of this, and she explained that it was a compliment someone had paid me, which she offered to repeat if I would tell her something complimentary I'd heard about her. To me this sounded like a bizarre, manipulative ritual that could only have developed in her family. I was surprised then when I found in MW10 the other day the following: trade-last: a complimentary remark by a third person that a hearer offers to repeat to the person complimented if he or she will first report a compliment made about the hearer. Are either of these terms in anyone's active vocabulary? Does anyone actually do this? Where do these terms come from? Any info appreciated. Orin Hargraves 438 Bankard Road Westminster, MD 21158 100422.2566[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Oct 1996 20:46:19 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Re: trade-like and trade-last On Wed, 2 Oct 1996, Orin Hargraves wrote: Are either of these terms in anyone's active vocabulary? Does anyone actually do this? Where do these terms come from? Any info appreciated. I don't have time to check any dictionaries tonight. However, I have known the term "trade-last"for most of my life. Haven't heard it in the past 10 years or so. Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA http://ljp.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Oct 1996 to 2 Oct 1996 ********************************************** There are 21 messages totalling 558 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Name This Decade! (2) 2. election words (5) 3. New word? playdate (8) 4. trade-like and trade-last 5. SECOL and Y'all 6. headlights/lamps (2) 7. headlights/lamps -Reply 8. playdate clarification ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 02:10:14 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Name This Decade! This comes from this week's Village Voice, 8 October 1996, p. 46, The Heimel Maneuver by Cynthia Heimel: Slouching Toward the Millennium So here it is October 1996, and we still haven't named our decade. I know we've been busy, but this is ridiculous. This is a very big decade! We've got a millennium coming up, for God's sake, and if we're not careful this could end up being the Waiting Decade, which doesn't have nearly the ring of the Me Decade, the Greed Decade, the Roaring Twenties, or the Gay Nineties. THE GAY NINETIES! You know, maybe this could work. It's already been done, which, let's face it, is perfect for right now, when everything's been done to death.... THE DIGITAL DECADE. Are we not all online? Do we not spend hours each day waiting for AOL to add the fucking art already? [I think I love this woman--ed.] THE RECYCLED DECADE. ... THE SPIN DECADE. ... THE O. J. DECADE. I only put this one in to scare you. If someone doesn't come up with a name soon, this one may win by default. .... What the article ignores is that The New York Times ran just such a contest just last year. I entered it. My entry made the final article, "Names for an Era," 2 April 1995, section 4, p. 7. A James Atlas article "Pinpointing a Moment on the Map of History" started it all off. Now, some contests create new words and phrases, and some don't. "Scofflaw" was originally a contest winner to come up with a Prohibition term for an illegal drinker. There are contests for city nicknames, such as Seattle's "Emerald City," and for sports team nicknames, such as the Washington Wizards (formerly the Bullets). A few years ago, I entered a contest sponsored by the National Cristina Foundation to replace the words "handicap" and "disabled." My suggestion--based on a name from world mythology--didn't win, and the winning entry ("People With Differing Abilities") was probably deservedly forgotten, but contests for words and phrases are not unusual. If the contest is for a team nickname (such as the Baltimore Ravens), the winning name will stick, because it HAS to. Words are different. They have to fill some sort of recognizable need for the user. Also, the sponsor should have clout. A President has an audience and perhaps can name a New Deal or a New Frontier, but still, there's room for everybody. "Me Decade" never came from Ronald Reagan! My entry for our new era was "Cyberia." The entry reflected not only a point in time, but also a place and a people ("cyberians"). It comes from the Greek root "to steer." The New York Times' article featured these suggestions: The Age of Chuck, The Muddle Ages, The Internetcine Era, E-Poch, The Sandpaper Era, The Cold War Lite Era, The Transnational Era, The Era of the New Meanies, Kokusaika, The Great Opening, The Gray Nineties, Hot Peace, The Age of Haste, The Citizens' Century, Awaiting Death, Silicon Age, The Age of Kakistocracy, Fin De (Hammer &) Sickle, The Post Hoc Age, The Age That Even Historians From Harvard Can't Name, The Age of Prejudice Begins, and The Present. On 31 March 1995, at 16:08, I had received an e-mail from review[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nytimes.com: "Dear Sir: Your submission is being considered for publication. Please e-mail you full: Name, Address, Work and home phone number, And credentials if any. The Week In Review needs this material as soon as possible. Thank you for your time and effort. Ty Ahmad-Taylor, The New York Times." This was on a Friday! It was too late to respond with my credentials. We're naming a decade--who has credentials? Actually, I was part of the American Name Society--I _did_ have credentials! The article stated: "The word 'global' appeared in more than 40 of the names; the prefixes 'dis-,' 're-,' 'post-,' 'fin de,' and 'cyber-' (including two cyberias and one cy-barbaric) popped up repeatedly. ... Here are some of the editors' favorites. History will name the winner." Two cyberias? No winner? History will name the winner? Huh? The Times really blew it. History doesn't name a winner! You don't throw fifty names up for grabs! You pick a winner YOURSELF, and it's either accepted or its not accepted. And so, it's a year later, and there's another "Name the Decade" article.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------- THE LOST GENERATION: a borrowed phrase? Along with the decade or era, we name generations, such as Generation X. "The Lost Generation" is featured on the first page of Ernest Hemingway's THE SUN ALSO RISES. He may have "borrowed" the idea. In the New York Herald, 11 September 1921, section 7, pg. 4. an article is titled "OUR GENERATION ARRAIGNED AS WASTERS BY AUTHOR/Owen Johnson, Novelist, Sees Americans' Heritage Passing to Foreign Born Unless Parents and Educators Institute Noteworthy Reforms." It continued: "War's effects are considered only lightly by Owen Johnson in the accompanying interview about his new book, 'The Wasted Generation,' and the object he had in writing it. Rather does his message apply to American civilization as a whole, and his indictment of our educational methods is particularly specific." The New York Herald published a Paris edition. If Gertrude Stein and Ernest Hemingway had somehow missed that, how about the Herald of 9 October 1921, section 7, pg. 2: IS THIS "THE WASTED GENERATION"? STIRS DENIALS By TORREY FORD. FOLLOWING along with the "wasted generation" idea, a nickname applied fondly by Owen Johnson to the rising young sons who refuse to rise.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 16:12:56 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: election words Does anyone have any suggestions on where I can start looking for information on words or phrases that (may have) started or at least become more popular during elections, particularly U. S. presidential elections? (Like the "okay" thing, for example.) I have kinda limited reference resources here. . . References, or just examples in general would be appreciated. Danny Long P.S. This sounds like a Barry A. Popik kind of question, or maybe Jesse will have some ideas for me. . . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 09:59:21 -0400 From: "Dale F.Coye" CoyeCFAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: New word? playdate My kids have been playing with other kids for the past 10 years, but just within the last year mothers have started saying "Let's arrange a playdate--" a time when the kids can play. Even my daughter picked it up as a new term, at least for our circle of friends. Is this really new or are we leading sheltered lives? Dale Coye The Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching Princeton, NJ. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 09:00:42 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: election words Does anyone have any suggestions on where I can start looking for information on words or phrases that (may have) started or at least become more popular during elections, particularly U. S. presidential elections? (Like the "okay" thing, for example.) I have kinda limited reference resources here. . . References, or just examples in general would be appreciated. At a most basic level, you could try looking in a book about political language, such as Safire's _Safire's New Political Dictionary_ (full disclosure: Random House book). No doubt many of the terms in there were popularized during elections. This'll only concentrate on actual political stuff--OK isn't in there, for example--but it's a place to start. No doubt someone else will have better ideas. JTS ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 09:18:17 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: trade-like and trade-last An article by John L. Clark in 1983 American Speech (58.20-30) lays out the evidence DARE has collected for "trade last" and its many variants, and includes maps for trade last (with 208 Informants), TL (116), trade (34), and last-go-trade (37). The earliest citation Clark mentions is from 1896 Dialect Notes 1.426; since he wrote the article, we've come across an 1892 citation as "trade-lash," probably a typo rather than a variant. David Shulman provides a Kipling citation and other comments in 1985 American Speech 60.308 and 1992 American Speech 67.223. Joan Hall, DARE jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 08:20:31 -0600 From: "Garland D. Bills" gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNM.EDU Subject: Re: election words Danny: George Lakoff's new book (U Chicago Press, 1996), _Moral politics: What conservatives know that liberals don't_, is a fascinating extension of his explorations in metaphor. It's not exactly what you had in mind, but you'll find it interesting. Garland D. Bills E-mail: gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unm.edu Department of Linguistics Tel.: (505) 277-7416 University of New Mexico FAX: (505) 277-6355 Albuquerque, NM 87131-1196 USA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 10:32:19 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: SECOL and Y'all could someone send me email address for Marvin Ching? thanks --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 10:34:08 -0400 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: New word? playdate My kids have been playing with other kids for the past 10 years, but just within the last year mothers have started saying "Let's arrange a playdate--" a time when the kids can play. Even my daughter picked it up as a new term, at least for our circle of friends. Is this really new or are we leading sheltered lives? Dale Coye I do not remember the exact term employed by the bulletin at my church, but a new group is now meeting once a week in the middle of the day in the middle of the week so that children who are at home with their mothers (how do they afford this?) can meet together and play--just like "normal" kids in day care/child care. I would have appreciated this group in the summer when I was babysitting and trying to finish my book with Barney blaring in the background four times a day via direct satellite TV. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College & State University Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 FAX: 912-454-0873 Office: Arts & Sciences 3-04 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 10:54:57 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: New word? playdate sayeth dale: My kids have been playing with other kids for the past 10 years, but just within the last year mothers have started saying "Let's arrange a playdate--" a time when the kids can play. Even my daughter picked it up as a new term, at least for our circle of friends. Is this really new or are we leading sheltered lives? at least a little sheltered. this goes back at least 5 years (when my friends started having kids), but i would guess longer. i've only heard it with reference to pre-schoolers. the phenomenon of playdates i associate with the social changes that have resulted in women not having kids at the same times as their friends or not having women friends living near them--so the playdate is a sort of artificial substitute for the former type of more casual interaction w/ other families. so, when i was a kid, my mom didn't arrange playdates--she took me along to her koffee klatch (or bridge game or whatever) and put me in the backyard w/ the other kids. but nowadays, the playdate focus is on the kids--you make a playdate for your kids, but you and the other parent are there. so, that's another relevant feature of playdates--it's not the same as sending the kid to someone else's house to play--parents of both kids are there. to some extent they do serve the purpose of koffee klatches (or however you're supposed to misspell that)--letting the parents (usu. moms) get some parenting support. the twist is that the focus is on the kids, so helps to relieve abstract parental guilts as well. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 10:11:32 +0100 From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: New word? playdate Playdate has been around for a least a few years here in central IL. Random House Webster's College Dictionary dates it 1985-90. Dennis. Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English office: 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 11:37:05 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: New word? playdate My kids have been playing with other kids for the past 10 years, but just within the last year mothers have started saying "Let's arrange a playdate--" a time when the kids can play. Even my daughter picked it up as a new term, at least for our circle of friends. Is this really new or are we leading sheltered lives? This is entered in the _Random House Webster's College Dictionary._ Our earliest evidence is from the mid-1980s. I have little doubt that it's at least somewhat earlier than this. Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 10:32:57 CDT From: Mike Picone MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU Subject: Re: election words On Thu, 3 Oct 1996 16:12:56 +0900 Daniel Long said: Does anyone have any suggestions on where I can start looking for information on words or phrases that (may have) started or at least become more popular during elections, particularly U. S. I don't know about sources, but one expression comes to mind right away: "born again," which had been around in various church circles for a long time previous, became popularized during Jimmy Carter's first run at the presidency and then took on secularized uses as well as it was made to apply to non-Christian, non-relgious fields of human ambition and experience. Mike Picone ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 09:55:23 -0700 From: Allen Maberry maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: headlights/lamps for some reason this pair popped into my head yesterday while driving home and preparing to turn on my headl----s. i recalled that my grandfather always called them "headlamps" rather than "headlights". is this distinction regional or age-based or merely a usage peculiar to my grandfather? DARE has an entry for "headlights" but not in this context. allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 13:30:00 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: headlights/lamps -Reply I sometimes call them "headlamps", too. (I'm 47.) I don't think I learned it from anyone; rather, I think I picked it up from written sources. Maybe the owner's manual or some technical document, but as I think about it, what seems most likely is the Commonwealth's* study book for the driver's license. * Massachusetts is not a State, you know! -- But the texts in question might equally have been NY State or California. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 13:39:32 -0400 From: "Dale F.Coye" CoyeCFAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: playdate clarification The way playdate is being used here in Princeton now is somewhat different than the way some on the list are using it. It does not involve the parents, and the age I'm involved with is 1st and 2nd grade, not preschool. "Let's arrange a playdate" means "can your child come over and play with mine" and the parent would be expected to drop off and go back home. Dale Coye Princeton, NJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 14:00:29 PDT From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: headlights/lamps --- On Thu, 3 Oct 1996 09:55:23 -0700 Allen Maberry maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU wrote: for some reason this pair popped into my head yesterday while driving home and preparing to turn on my headl----s. i recalled that my grandfather always called them "headlamps" rather than "headlights". is this distinction regional or age-based I recall the term growing up in the '50s being used by then elderly people. I also remember "parking field" rather than "parking lot". In earlier days, when cars were not plentiful, there was no need in my small town for a paved area for regular use as a car park. But occasional events such as the fair or an auction drew crowds from miles around and a nearby field was pressed into service just for the day and then returned to the cows. By the 50's when we had actual municipal parking lots, the old timers still called them parking fields. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net When I die and go to Hell, at least I can get my same ISP. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 13:30:50 -0600 From: Luanne von Schneidemesser lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: New word? playdate In message Thu, 3 Oct 1996 10:54:57 -0400, "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA writes: at least a little sheltered. this goes back at least 5 years (when my friends started having kids), but i would guess longer. i've only heard it with reference to pre-schoolers. the phenomenon of playdates i associate with the social changes that have resulted in women not having kids at the same times as their friends or not having women friends living near them--so the playdate is a sort of artificial substitute for the former type of more casual interaction w/ other families. so, when i was a kid, my mom didn't arrange playdates--she took me along to her koffee klatch (or bridge game or whatever) and put me in the backyard w/ the other kids. but nowadays, the playdate focus is on the kids--you make a playdate for your kids, but you and the other parent are there. so, that's another relevant feature of playdates--it's not the same as sending the kid to someone else's house to play--parents of both kids are there. to some extent they do serve the purpose of koffee klatches (or however you're supposed to misspell that)--letting the parents (usu. moms) get some parenting support. the twist is that the focus is on the kids, so helps to relieve abstract parental guilts as well. My kids, born 1982 and 1984, had playdates with other kids, but it basically was nothing but getting together to play with them as I did with other kids when I was young -- the difference was that my children lived in a neighborhood with few children, so that the other parent or I had to drive one of the kids to the other kid's house. These were usually other children from preschool or school (this was not just a neighborhood school, but a paired school, one combined with another so that minority balance could be maintained). Parents of both kids were usually not there, however. I dropped the child off and picked him or her up later. Luanne von Schneidemesser Dictionary of American Regional English 6129 H.C. White Hall, 600 N. Park St. University of Wisconsin-Madison Madison WI 53706 (608) 263-2748 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 19:38:44 EDT From: "Timothy M. Ennis" 72120.2224[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: Re: New word? playdate I am familiar with playdate since the mid eighties when as 30-something yuppies living in NYC, my wife and I had our first child. My daughter was in fulltime daycare, but my wife would arrange to meet other wives with kids at the local playgroundand talk while the kids played. When we moved to the burbs, and put the two kids in private school we would arrange playdates or overnights where the kids would visit a friend which required a drive to and a later pickup. I think the term specifies only that it is a prescheduled event which requires the parents setting it up. This is very different from my own growing up, where the kids left the house in the morning and might not return home till dinner. Even though my kids are 10 an 12 now and we live in a very good suburb, my wife is uncomfortable if she doesn't see the kids on the property every 15 minutes or so. I think this has some economic basis given the size of families today with 1 or 2 children versus 4 or 6 40 years ago. In the past if something bad happened to a child it was tragic, but there were other children to carry on. This also explains how drug using yuppies are so hypocritically imposing alcohol and tobacco restrictions on the upcoming generation which will probably backfire. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 19:38:38 EDT From: "Timothy M. Ennis" 72120.2224[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: Name This Decade! Put my entry in for "THE 'SO WHAT!' DECADE". This was the phrase reiterated by Sen Dodd of CT and the other Clinton apologists. The American people now think that Bill and Hillary are cheats and liars but plan to vote for them anyway. Meanwhile OJ is plainly guilty of murdering two people in cold blood, but since Fuhrman used the N-word, he gets off while the cop is convicted. I'll wager that neither Cochran, Bailey, Shapiro or the jurors could swear they never used the N-word in 10 years. The idiot jurist Itoh escapes impeachment for allowing such an irrelevancy into the trial. My second choice is the "through the Looking Glass Decade", since every previous standard of judgement has been overthrown and perverted. See the recent stories of first graders being suspended from school for sexual harassment, while highschoolers carrying guns are reinstated by the NY State Appeals court due to their rights against illegal search being infringed. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 19:51:30 -0400 From: Donna Metcalf Ddonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: New word? playdate Yes definitely in central Illinois playdate has been around for a while. It was a nice way for mothers and babies to get together. My baby is 19 and in college and the term was used when he was a baby. And I had nine friends in 1983 who had babies within about four months. We had a baby group for a long time when mothers and babies would get together. And then we would make individual playdates for just two moms and their babies. In no way was it a chance to drop off your baby somewhere. The moms enjoyed the playdate possibly more than the babies! Here this had nothing to do with preschool but rather two babies-two moms. Donna Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 00:00:01 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: election words The best book by far for election words is AMERICAN POLITICAL TERMS, An Historical Dictionary, by Hans Sperber and Travis Trittschuh, Wayne State University Press, Detroit, 1962. Safire's book is more recent and is mildly helpful, but is less informative in most every entry. Check it out! For historical purposes, you may also want to see the Political Americanisms articles in the Magazine of American History, from 1884-1885. My "political" citation of the day comes from the Washington Post, 31 May 1932, pg. 5 (actually, it's a cigarette ad): DO YOU INHALE? Is this question too revealing for other cigarettes? We do not criticize others. We merely call your attention to the fact that the vital subject of inhaling has been generally avoided in cigarette advertising. Why? What's there to be afraid of? _Everybody inhales!_ ... ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Oct 1996 to 3 Oct 1996 ********************************************** There are 9 messages totalling 245 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. -- For Sale: Cheap Pitney Bowes Postage meter supplies / will take best offer 2. New word? playdate 3. playdate clarification (2) 4. New word? playdate -Reply 5. -- For Sale: Cheap Pitney Bowes Postage meter supplies / 6. FW: Name This Decade! (2) 7. headrights/ramps ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 3 Oct 1996 14:13:47 -0500 From: mb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BIGFOOT.COM Subject: -- For Sale: Cheap Pitney Bowes Postage meter supplies / will take best offer We have upgraded the two postage meters we were using to larger machines and have some leftover supplies we will see very cheaply, for best offer. We have two packages. Will break up or sell as whole package(s). Package #1: Pitney Bowes Postage Meter Model #5700 Supplies: 2 Brand-New Red Rollers, never used. (Pitney Bowes currently sells them for $30.10 plus shipping). Package #2: (retail from Pitney Bowes = $195.87) Pitney Bowes Postage Meter Model #6900 Supplies: 2 brand-new red ink rollers, never used (Pitney Bowes currently sells them for $31.99 plus shipping). 2 red ink rollers, used only once each for 1 envelope each, for testing. (Pitney Bowes currently sells them for $31.99 plus shipping). 2 red/black ink roller, freshly inked, makes like-new imprints (Pitney Bowes currently sells them for $31.99 plus shipping). 1 "smiley face" ad plate to cheer up your mail! (Pitney Bowes price = $49.95 plus shipping). 1 bulk rate ad plate for when you do bulk rate mailings (Pitney Bowes price = $49.95 plus shipping). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:03:14 -0400 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: New word? playdate This is very different from my own growing up, where the kids left the house in the morning and might not return home till dinner. Even though my kids are 10 an 12 now and we live in a very good suburb, my wife is uncomfortable if she doesn't see the kids on the property every 15 minutes or so. I live in the middle of hundreds of acres of woods and can't bear for my child to be out of my sight while she is outside. But then I worry about rattlesnakes, scorpions, fire ants, wild dogs, rabid raccoons, escaped prisoners, . . . . I think this has some economic basis given the size of families today with 1 or 2 children versus 4 or 6 40 years ago. In the past if something bad happened to a child it was tragic, but there were other children to carry on. This also explains how drug using yuppies are so hypocritically imposing alcohol and tobacco restrictions on the upcoming generation which will probably backfire. There was an interesting report on NPR last night about the means parents employ to keep their children safe from car accidents and drugs. Their are monitoring devices you can put in the car. The drug test performed on stolen hair can tell the frequency and level of use! These devices are indeed used by yuppies who used to be hippies. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College & State University Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 FAX: 912-454-0873 Office: Arts & Sciences 3-04 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 09:15:46 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: playdate clarification Dale, Is the last line of your message something you would say (or only write in a 'quick' message)? I do not have 'drop off' as an object-deleting verb. I find this object deletion (and origin) especially interesting from a generational point of view. For example (in the opposite direction), I have the verb 'babysit' only in the 'intrasitive' (obviously, historically, since it already incorporated the object), but nearly everyone younger than me (a large percentage of the population) has such (for me *-ed) strings as 'he came over to babysit us,' etc... (where I would need prepositional support). (My classification, in the particular case, is so strong that I first quickly read this message to mean that the parent had 'gone to sleep' until some pragmatic urge led me to realize that it would be hard to 'go back home' - especially in a car - in that state.) Does anyone know of any surveys (of authentic or experimental usage) on object presence and/or deletion? Dennis (who always has to drop something off) PS: Maybe the object deletion in this particular case is a response to the difficulty in finding a suitable pronoun. Since the referent is 'child,' there is both the gender problem and the apparently-offensive-to-parents 'it.' (Not to mention the apparently-offensive-to-prescriptivists 'them.') ' ... expected to drop him/her [him or her] off ... ' ' ... expected to drop it off ... ' ' ... expected to drop them off ... ' Dale wrote, The way playdate is being used here in Princeton now is somewhat different than the way some on the list are using it. It does not involve the parents, and the age I'm involved with is 1st and 2nd grade, not preschool. "Let's arrange a playdate" means "can your child come over and play with mine" and the parent would be expected to drop off and go back home. Dale Coye Princeton, NJ Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 10:18:29 -0400 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: playdate clarification Dennis Preston wrote: ... I first quickly read this message to mean that the parent had 'gone to sleep' until some pragmatic urge led me to realize that it would be hard to 'go back home' - especially in a car - in that state.) Not if you are a yuppy who used to be a hippy. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College & State University Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 FAX: 912-454-0873 Office: Arts & Sciences 3-04 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 11:02:35 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: New word? playdate -Reply I kept thinking "I know that faceXXXXword, but not in this context." The penny just dropped. I'm thinking of "playdate" as used for the date (and time?) on which a radio or TV station plays (will play) a given specific program ("What's your playdate for the interview with X?"). Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 11:05:30 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: -- For Sale: Cheap Pitney Bowes Postage meter supplies / will take best offer -Reply What does this have to do with American dialects?! mb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BIGFOOT.COM 1003.1413 We have upgraded the two postage meters we were using to larger machines and have some leftover supplies we will see very cheaply, for best offer. [rest deleted] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 15:23:33 -0400 From: "Winfield, Laurie" lwinfield[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HUNTON.COM Subject: FW: Name This Decade! How about the Shrinking Nineties? Think of corporate downsizing, the world becoming even smaller than ever with all our technology, and the prevalent "so-whatness" that shrinks our aspirations, our civility, and our ethics. lwinfield[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hunton.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Oct 1996 16:39:04 EDT From: Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: FW: Name This Decade! I doubt "the shrinking nineties" would catch on. Politics aside (for example, many corporations are in fact growing, they're just firing people because it makes the stock market happy), people want a neutral to upbeat view of the present. I don't think we even named the 1970s and 1980s, though: the idea seems to have gone out of fashion. Vicki Rosenzweig vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com | rosenzweig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acm.org http://members.tripod.com/~rosvicl ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 10:55:18 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: headrights/ramps I found this topic interesting because the word "heddo rampu" (headlamp) is used in Japan. I had never heard it used in the US and so thought it was a Japanese formation. The longer I am in Japan, the more of these strange "Japlish" words I find are not "Japlish" at all, but in fact bonified English words that, for whatever reason (changes in time, areal usages, etc), just simply not in use when and where I grew up. Several years ago, an English magazine here ran a column where readers sent in pictures of strange "Japlish" usages. One such picture was a train with "deadhead" written on it. The contributor and the editors had a good time lampooning the stupid Japanese for their incompetent use of English. . . but they should have taken the time to look up "deadhead" in an English dictionary first. Now it seems "heddo rampu" is actually of this category as well. Allen Maberry wrote: for some reason this pair popped into my head yesterday while driving home and preparing to turn on my headl----s. i recalled that my grandfather always called them "headlamps" rather than "headlights". is this distinction regional or age-based or merely a usage peculiar to my grandfather? DARE has an entry for "headlights" but not in this context. allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Oct 1996 to 4 Oct 1996 ********************************************** There is one message totalling 35 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Headlamps ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 5 Oct 1996 14:27:48 EDT From: Charles & Mary Boewe boewes[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JUNO.COM Subject: Headlamps Allen Maberry's grandfather probably remembered cars that were hand-cranked to start, got their ignition spark from a magneto rather than a storage battery, and illuminated the roadway ahead by means of gas-powered headlamps. Most lighting devices that burn hydrocarbons have been called lamps. Whale oil lamps, kerosene lamps, gas lamps. Early automobiles--when they had lights at all, for headlamps at first were an add-on accessory--burned acetylene in their large, brass headlamps. This colorless gas (which has a foul odor) was generated in the lamps themselves, by water dripping on a lump of calcium carbide. It was a process not without hazards; harmless but loud 4th-of-July canons generate acetylene by the same process, then cause it to explode. Some notion of how effective acetylene lamps could be comes from remembering that welding torches still burn acetylene (though under pressure and in the presence of pressurized oxygen). Early cars (especially closed ones) sometimes also had small oil-burning lamps on each side. These, of course, descended from the carriage lamps formerly affixed to the sides of horse-drawn carriages, where they served no other purpose than to make known the presence of the carriage, somewhat as running lights do ships (or, for that matter, airplanes). They did not illuminate the road. This form comes down to us as "carriage lamps" mounted beside the door of a house. Charles Boewe ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Oct 1996 to 5 Oct 1996 ********************************************** There are 4 messages totalling 143 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. You'll catch Jessie! 2. Roosevelt is a ROSE-a-velt is a RUSE-a-velt 3. dialects that might have been 4. English 100 years from now ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 03:16:21 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: You'll catch Jessie! I've gotta call someone named Jesse at his office next week, and maybe I'll catch him in. Which brings me to the phrase, "You'll catch Jessie!" In the Magazine of American History's series on Political Americanisms (vol. 13, 1885, pg. 201), you'll see this: "GIVE 'EM JESSIE." A party war cry current in the Presidential campaign of 1856. Fremont, the Republican candidate, had fifteen years before made a runaway match with Jessie, daughter of Thomas H. Benton, and the popular favor with which runaway matches are apt to be regarded was made much of in this case, the lady's name being freely used in song and story by her husband's political supporters. A reply was on pg. 302: GIVE 'EM JESSE [Yes, without the "i"--ed.]--_Editor of Magazine of American History_: Pardon me if I point out one unquestionable inaccuracy in Mr. Norton's valuable paper on "Political Americanisms" in your last number {x111. 201]. The phrase "Give 'em Jesse" [sic] was a familiar New England objurgation in my boyhood, twenty years before the Fremont campaign, to which he attributes it. The application to that campaign and the change in spelling proceeded first, I believe, from Dr. William Francis Channing (afterwards the inventor of the telegraphic fire alarm), who devised for that campaign a series of motto wafers, on one of which was inscribed "Give 'em Jessie." I remember well the amusement created by this new application of an old phrase, and am not surprised that the new form has driven out the old one. T. W. H., CAMBRIDGE, Mass. T. W. H. is probably correct about the antiquity of this American phrase. This item comes from the New Orleans Daily Picayune, 24 June 1842, pg. 4, col. 1. For those of you from Boston, I'll also include the "Hub" reference: Origin of Old Expressions A great many quaint and useful sayings are floating about, the point and peculiar expression of which are universally understood, while true paternity of any one of them is about as questionable as the riddle of the spynx. In consequence of this unfortunate state of things we have gone into a series of profound antiquarian researches, and now endeavor to offer the "heraldry" of a few. _You'll catch Jessie!_--This is a prophecy of coming danger or trouble. Jessie was the uglist girl in the village, with the sourest temper, the sharpest tongue, the shrillest voice, the thinnest lips _and_ the _curliest_ nose that was ever seen or heard of; and blind-man's-bluff was at length abandoned in the village, because the lads were afraid to be blind-folded, lest they should "catch Jessie." Here the phrase originated, for the lads would tease each other when tying the handkerchief by whispering mischievously--_"You'll catch Jessie!"_ ... _Up to the Hub._--This phrase is of very simple and local origin. A dull country fellow was driving a heavy ox team over a piece of swampy land. when the waggon suddenly settled down into an impassable quagmire. "Well," said the master, when he came many hours after to view the mischief--"well, you seem to have done it now pretty essentially." _"Up to the hub!"_ said the innocent driver, with so droll an expression of countenance as rivetted, unconsciously to himself, immortality upon the expression. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 09:15:54 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Roosevelt is a ROSE-a-velt is a RUSE-a-velt First Lady Hillary Rodham Clinton dedicated a statue of Eleanor Roosevelt yesterday at Riverside Park. Franklin D. Roosevelt III attended. This is from the Boston Evening Transcript, 28 September 1901, pg. 22, col. 3, and applies to Theodore Roosevelt: There seems to be a doubt as to the correct pronunciation of our new President's name. What is it? STATE STREET [Several other correspondents ask the same question. We wrote the President, and his private secretary replied that the name is pronounced as if spelled Rosyvelt. A resident of Washington, who is intimate with those immediately about the President, writes that the name is pronounced as if spelled Ro-zuh-v'lt--the accent strongly on the first syllable, with long o as in rose; the second syllable very short, the third much contracted.] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 20:06:19 -0500 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: dialects that might have been One problem with such questions as "How would the English language be different if the Confederacy had won?" is the problem of "What comes after that?" If the US and the Confederacy live relatively peacefully thereafter, that's one thing. But what if, twenty years later, there's the Second War Between the States? And twenty years after that, the Third War Between the States? Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Oct 1996 20:25:30 -0500 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: English 100 years from now What the English language as a whole will be like a century from now depends partly on the relative prestige of English-speaking countries; whether there's a civil war in Mexico which sends refugees north, or the Mexican economy improves enough that it's not worthwhile going to the US for work; and a few other things which are difficult to predict. I will predict this: Most major American metropolitan areas which have distinctive local dialects now will still have them -- but they'll be different. The New York Metropolitan dialect, for example, will probably include a fair number of Somali words and at least a few less Yiddish words. Newer metropolitan areas which don't now have distinctive local dialects will develop them. I don't know how differently Salt Lake City people speak than people from the nearest parts of rural Utah -- but there will be a detectable difference a century from now. The dialect used in country music will be increasingly different from any spoken dialect. The Hudson Valley dialect will either have succumbed completely to the New York Metropolitan dialect and Upstate New York dialect, or will survive only in small, remote areas. The Canadian border will be increasingly less of a border between dialects. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Oct 1996 to 6 Oct 1996 ********************************************** There are 12 messages totalling 424 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. AUTOMOBILE: an antedate 2. American Name Society 3. Roosevelt is a ROSE-a-velt is a RUSE-a-velt (2) 4. drop off (4) 5. bonified (was: Headramps/rights) (2) 6. Ching 7. Come with? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 05:28:17 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: AUTOMOBILE: an antedate "Automobile" is a crazy combination of Greek ("auto") and Latin ("mobile"). The French probably thought it up. OED has one 1883 citation. This comes from Harper's Weekly, 10 February 1883, pg. 91, col. 3: The Hartford _Courant_ takes the law-makers in Washington to task for using the alleged word "auto-mobile" with reference to torpedoes. It says that "auto-mobile" is an improper combination of Greek and Latin roots, and suggests that "self-moving" would convey the meaning which the etymological monstrosity is intended to convey. The Congressional Record--House, 47th Congress, 23 January 1883, pg. 1518, states: "For the purchase, after full investigation and experiment of automobile torpedoes of the latest and best American invention, manufacture, and construction, with appliances for their use, $100,000." Pg. 1519 continues "that this Whitehead torpedo is a fraud, that it is the only torpedo that goes by the name of 'automobile'" and "But the term 'automobile torpedo' has never been used except with reference to the Whitehead torpedo." One Congressman objected that the thing was a waste of money and would never work, and that other torpedoes could do the same job cheaper. Where have we heard that before? One item on pg. 1518 interested me to bring this up now: "For necessary repairs to ordnance buildings, magazines, gun-parks, boats, lighters, wharves, machinery, and other objects of the like character, including breakwaters at the magazine, Ellis Island, New York...$15,000." The U. S. Supreme Court is meeting today, and one of the cases being considered is whether Ellis Island is in New York or New Jersey. Of course, this item comes from 1883, and the major issue is the landfill created from building the subways at a later date. But the Ellis Island magazine and its breakwaters would appear to be in "New York." New York City is basing its case on the uncontested usage of the term "Ellis Island, New York" for over 100 years, but to the best of my knowledge, Mayor Giuliani is not using ANYONE from the American Dialect Society, nor the American Name Society. I'd like to be involved with the brief. Anyway, there it all is, in the Congressional Record, pg. 1518, of January 23, 1883. Damn these automobile torpedoes! Full speed ahead!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 08:27:13 -0500 From: "Randal D. Williams" RDW2101[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU Subject: American Name Society Would someone be so kind as to send me some information and the address of the American Name Society? Thanks. Randal D. Williams RDW2101[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tn.tech.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 10:45:18 -0400 From: David Bergdahl bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Roosevelt is a ROSE-a-velt is a RUSE-a-velt On Sun, 6 Oct 1996, Barry A. Popik wrote: col. 3, and applies to Theodore Roosevelt: There seems to be a doubt as to the correct pronunciation of our new President's name. What is it? STATE STREET [Several other correspondents ask the same question. We wrote the President, and his private secretary replied that the name is pronounced as if spelled Rosyvelt. A resident of Washington, who is intimate with those immediately about the President, writes that the name is pronounced as if spelled Ro-zuh-v'lt--the accent strongly on the first syllable, with long o as in rose; the second syllable very short, the third much contracted.] This interests me because in my suburban LI community in the 1940s the pronuciation given here was used for FDR and the RUSE-a-velt pronunciation for TR. Are both presidents' names then pronounced the same or differently? Inquiring minds. . . &c. _____________David Bergdahl Ellis Hall 114c hrs: MTThF 10-11 & by appt. Bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu tel: 593-2783 fax: 593-2818_____________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 12:20:48 -0400 From: "Dale F.Coye" CoyeCFAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: drop off Dennis- Now I find myself flipping through the entire lexicon trying to figure out what I can and can't say... take off, take down, put off, put down, get down, pipe down... You ask about: the parent would be expected to drop off and go back home When I think about it, I would normally say "Drop them off" but I guess intransitive "drop off," though not the usual construction, is comparable to pick up: When shall I pick them up? What time is pick up? When shall I pick up? None of which get the asterisk for me. However, in a different construction, I've got a friend from California who makes me shudder every time she says: Do your kids want to come with? Where I would say, Do they want to come with us? Maybe German influence from mitkommen- Kommen die Kinder mit? Also consider...To everything there is a season...A time to drop off and a time to pick up. Dale Coye Princeton, NJ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 11:42:04 -0600 From: Luanne von Schneidemesser lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: drop off In message Mon, 7 Oct 1996 12:20:48 -0400, "Dale F.Coye" CoyeCFAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM writes: However, in a different construction, I've got a friend from California who makes me shudder every time she says: Do your kids want to come with? Very common here in Wisconsin. I've even started saying it since I've lived here. Where I would say, Do they want to come with us? Maybe German influence from mitkommen- Kommen die Kinder mit? Definitely German influence. Also consider...To everything there is a season...A time to drop off and a time to pick up. Dale Coye Princeton, NJ ____________________ Luanne von Schneidemesser Dictionary of American Regional English 6129 H.C. White Hall, 600 N. Park St. University of Wisconsin-Madison Madison WI 53706 (608) 263-2748 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 14:19:26 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: bonified (was: Headramps/rights) From Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP 1004.2055 [...] The longer I am in Japan, the more of these strange "Japlish" words I find are not "Japlish" at all, but in fact bonified English words that, for whatever reason (changes in time, areal usages, etc), just simply not in use when and where I grew up. I've seen this reanalysis before. Here's my take on its history: (1) The origin is Latin "bona fide" (four syllables in Latin, roughly BO-nah FEE-day) 'in good faith'. (2) The phrase got repronounced by eye, from people reading the spelling out by English rules and getting, roughly, BO-nuh FIED. (3) This pronunciation then got respelled by ear, from people hearing it and identifying the termination "uh-FIED" as the past participle of a verb ending in "-ify", such as "identified", producing this spelling "bonified". Daniel, have you ever used the word in any other form, such as "bonify" or "bonifying", or heard it so used? Do you have a sense of what it would mean? Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 13:44:35 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU Subject: Ching mklching[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu or is it chingmkl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu? one of these ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 14:28:54 -0600 From: Kat Rose Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPOT.COLORADO.EDU Subject: Come with? Dale Coye considered: Do your kids want to come with? ...Maybe German influence from mitkommen- Kommen die Kinder mit? ---------------- My maternal grandfather came from a German neighborhood in Dubuque; some German was spoken in his home. He said, and we picked up, "...come with." I can't remember how common this usage was in my Quint City neighborhoods, but it was common enough that our use didn't sound strange to other folks. I know there was some German settlement in the Iowa/Illinois Mississippi Valley, but I don't know how much. [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] -- --- Kat Rose Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]spot.Colorado.edu My words, my rights, my responsibility ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 16:41:11 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: drop off Dale, You're right about the Germanness of the 'come with'; my Milwaukee wife has it solidly. Any number of things you seem to be able to rather freely delete in 'transitive' object position, I can't. Smells like age to me (since it can't hardly be prescriptivism on my part). I hope to get a student to play with this. Since the minimalists tell us all the grammar is in the lexicon, it ought to be easy to show generationally. Best, Dennis ( Dennis- Now I find myself flipping through the entire lexicon trying to figure out what I can and can't say... take off, take down, put off, put down, get down, pipe down... You ask about: the parent would be expected to drop off and go back home When I think about it, I would normally say "Drop them off" but I guess intransitive "drop off," though not the usual construction, is comparable to pick up: When shall I pick them up? What time is pick up? When shall I pick up? None of which get the asterisk for me. However, in a different construction, I've got a friend from California who makes me shudder every time she says: Do your kids want to come with? Where I would say, Do they want to come with us? Maybe German influence from mitkommen- Kommen die Kinder mit? Also consider...To everything there is a season...A time to drop off and a time to pick up. Dale Coye Princeton, NJ Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 16:15:49 -0500 From: Michael Linn mlinn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]D.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: drop off Dennis, You are right about the German, but the "want to come with" can also be a literal translation from Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, and Finnish as well. That is why it is so common in Minnesota. Mike On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Dennis R. Preston wrote: Dale, You're right about the Germanness of the 'come with'; my Milwaukee wife has it solidly. Any number of things you seem to be able to rather freely delete in 'transitive' object position, I can't. Smells like age to me (since it can't hardly be prescriptivism on my part). I hope to get a student to play with this. Since the minimalists tell us all the grammar is in the lexicon, it ought to be easy to show generationally. Best, Dennis ( Dennis- Now I find myself flipping through the entire lexicon trying to figure out what I can and can't say... take off, take down, put off, put down, get down, pipe down... You ask about: the parent would be expected to drop off and go back home When I think about it, I would normally say "Drop them off" but I guess intransitive "drop off," though not the usual construction, is comparable to pick up: When shall I pick them up? What time is pick up? When shall I pick up? None of which get the asterisk for me. However, in a different construction, I've got a friend from California who makes me shudder every time she says: Do your kids want to come with? Where I would say, Do they want to come with us? Maybe German influence from mitkommen- Kommen die Kinder mit? Also consider...To everything there is a season...A time to drop off and a time to pick up. Dale Coye Princeton, NJ Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 11:22:45 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: bonified (was: Headramps/rights) Daniel, have you ever used the word in any other form, such as "bonify" or "bonifying", or heard it so used? Do you have a sense of what it would mean? Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com It would mean "to give someone an erection". At least where I could from. Danny ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Oct 1996 22:43:46 -0400 From: dennisr dennisr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MGL.CA Subject: Re: Roosevelt is a ROSE-a-velt is a RUSE-a-velt This interests me because in my suburban LI community in the 1940s the pronuciation given here was used for FDR and the RUSE-a-velt pronunciation for TR. Are both presidents' names then pronounced the same or differently? Inquiring minds. . . &c. _____________David Bergdahl Ellis Hall 114c hrs: MTThF 10-11 & by appt. Bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu tel: 593-2783 fax: 593-2818_____________ --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Roosevelt, Franklin D(elano) Pronunciation: [rohzuhvelt, roozvelt] Roosevelt, Theodore Pronunciation: [rohzuhvelt, roozvelt] THE CAMBRIDGE BIOGRAPHICAL ENCYCLOPEDIA I have seen this question posed several times before. I am a prig for history and particularly for both FDR who had six Scottish Terriers in his lifetime (The most famous was the "second" FALA : I also breed Scottish Terriers) and TR who was a Rat Terrier fancier. Rat terriers are the backbone breeding of Squirrel Dogs and Feist dogs. I am the list owner of The Earthdog-Squirrel Dog e-mail discussion list and homepage. Scottish Terriers are earthdogs. Tonight Historian David McCullough on the PBS "Teddy Roosevelt- American Experience" broadcast stated that the Roosevelt's have always prefered to have their name pronounced as RUSE-a-velt not ROSE-a-velt. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Oct 1996 to 7 Oct 1996 ********************************************** There are 15 messages totalling 472 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. The Germanic Separable Prefix "mit 2. American Name Society (2) 3. drop off 4. Come with? 5. drop off -Reply 6. Roosevelt is a ROSE-a-velt is a RUSE-a-velt -Reply 7. American Name Society -Reply (2) 8. bonified (was: Headramps/rights) 9. come with (2) 10. Southern hospitality Oct. 18 (2) 11. DITKA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 00:42:24 -0600 From: Samuel Jones smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: The Germanic Separable Prefix "mit The "dangling" or separable prefix WITH is primarily a product of Germanic construction; however, the German "mit" [as well as the Norwegian, Swedish, Danish equivalents] is also found in countless verbs, such as mitmachen (= to go along with, follow suit), mitlaufen (= to run with, participate), mitarbeiten (= to work with, collaborate), mithelfen (= to help with, assist), mitgehen (= to go along with, accompany), and so forth. In our home, German is spoken on a daily basis. It was for my children their 1st language and, early on, as they gradually added English vocabularly and construction to their language skills, the "come with" appeared quite often. smjones Dennis, You are right about the German, but the "want to come with" can also be a literal translation from Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, and Finnish as well. That is why it is so common in Minnesota. Mike On Mon, 7 Oct 1996, Dennis R. Preston wrote: Dale, You're right about the Germanness of the 'come with'; my Milwaukee wife has it solidly. Any number of things you seem to be able to rather freely delete in 'transitive' object position, I can't. Smells like age to me (since it can't hardly be prescriptivism on my part). I hope to get a student to play with this. Since the minimalists tell us all the grammar is in the lexicon, it ought to be easy to show generationally. Best, Dennis ( Dennis- Now I find myself flipping through the entire lexicon trying to figure out what I can and can't say... take off, take down, put off, put down, get down, pipe down... You ask about: the parent would be expected to drop off and go back home When I think about it, I would normally say "Drop them off" but I guess intransitive "drop off," though not the usual construction, is comparable to pick up: When shall I pick them up? What time is pick up? When shall I pick up? None of which get the asterisk for me. However, in a different construction, I've got a friend from California who makes me shudder every time she says: Do your kids want to come with? Where I would say, Do they want to come with us? Maybe German influence from mitkommen- Kommen die Kinder mit? Also consider...To everything there is a season...A time to drop off and a time to pick up. Dale Coye Princeton, NJ Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ____________________________________________________________________________ DR. SAMUEL M. JONES INTERNET: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu Prof. of Music & Latin American Studies TELNET: samjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu 5434 Humanities Building FAX: 608 + 262-8876 (UW) 455 North Park Street __________________________________________ University of Wisconsin-Madison TELEPHONES: 608 + 263-1900 (UW-Lv. message) Madison, WI 53706-1483 * 608 + 263-1924 * (UW-Office - * VOICE MAIL--Lv message) ____________________________________________________________________________ "Pen-y-Bryn" TELEPHONES: 608 + 233-2150 (Home) 122 Shepard Terrace 608 + 233-4748 (Home) Madison, WI 53705-3614 ____________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 03:35:38 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: American Name Society The American Name Society has a homepage and a listserv ANS-L (Listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu). It publishes the journal NAMES. Interested people with $30 can send it to Prof. Wayne H. Finke, Executive Secretary-Treasurer, American Name Society, Modern Languages, Box 340, Baruch College, NY, NY 10010. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 04:59:49 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: drop off luanne said: In message Mon, 7 Oct 1996 12:20:48 -0400, "Dale F.Coye" CoyeCFAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM writes: However, in a different construction, I've got a friend from California who makes me shudder every time she says: Do your kids want to come with? Very common here in Wisconsin. I've even started saying it since I've lived here. Definitely German influence. this seems to be something that slips very easily into english from different sources in different places. (interesting to think about why some things are easier to get into english than others. are our germanic roots showing?) it's a feature of south african english, where it comes from afrikaans, but is not limited (as it seems to be in some people's amerenglish) to constructions with "with". here, you can drop any object, given sufficient context, as in: "do you want?" "no thanks, i've got." i actually like this. i feel so racy saying such incomplete things. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 05:46:15 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: American Name Society The American Name Society has a homepage The ANS homepage is linked to ours (ADS -- http://www.msstate.edu/ Archives/ADS/) in the "Net Resources of Interest to ADS Members." and a listserv ANS-L ^^^^^^^^^^ Has this usage change become pretty much complete now? Do most of y'all think of a list as "a listserv"? When people first started calling lists "listservs," it drove me crazy because of the resulting confusion among net newbies who would read something about sending whatever command "to the listserv" and think it meant to the list -- thus causing list clutter. But so many people seem to be using "listserv" to mean "list" now that I'm wondering if listserv documents should be revised in an attempt to get rid of potential confusion. (Listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu). It publishes the journal NAMES. ^^^^^^^^ Mail to that address doesn't go to a particular list. It goes to Binghamton's copy of LISTSERV, a computer program written by Eric Thomas and used all over the world to run mailing lists. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 09:37:59 -0400 From: Fraser Sutherland frasers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]THE-WIRE.COM Subject: Re: Come with? "Come with" is also fairly common in Lunenburg, Nova Scotia, which was largely settled by Germans. Dale Coye considered: Do your kids want to come with? ...Maybe German influence from mitkommen- Kommen die Kinder mit? ---------------- My maternal grandfather came from a German neighborhood in Dubuque; some German was spoken in his home. He said, and we picked up, "...come with." I can't remember how common this usage was in my Quint City neighborhoods, but it was common enough that our use didn't sound strange to other folks. I know there was some German settlement in the Iowa/Illinois Mississippi Valley, but I don't know how much. [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] -- --- Kat Rose Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]spot.Colorado.edu My words, my rights, my responsibility ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 09:44:38 -0500 From: Molly Connors dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JBLSMTP.PHL.LRPUB.COM Subject: Re: drop off -Reply And me, with my PA Dutch background. Molly Connors dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com Dennis R. Preston preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU 10/07/96 03:41pm Dale, You're right about the Germanness of the 'come with'; my Milwaukee wife has it solidly. Any number of things you seem to be able to rather freely delete in 'transitive' object position, I can't. Smells like age to me (since it can't hardly be prescriptivism on my part). I hope to get a student to play with this. Since the minimalists tell us all the grammar is in the lexicon, it ought to be easy to show generationally. Best, Dennis ( Dennis- Now I find myself flipping through the entire lexicon trying to figure out what I can and can't say... take off, take down, put off, put down, get down, pipe down... You ask about: the parent would be expected to drop off and go back home When I think about it, I would normally say "Drop them off" but I guess intransitive "drop off," though not the usual construction, is comparable to pick up: When shall I pick them up? What time is pick up? When shall I pick up? None of which get the asterisk for me. However, in a different construction, I've got a friend from California who makes me shudder every time she says: Do your kids want to come with? Where I would say, Do they want to come with us? Maybe German influence from mitkommen- Kommen die Kinder mit? Also consider...To everything there is a season...A time to drop off and a time to pick up. Dale Coye Princeton, NJ Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 10:21:32 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: Roosevelt is a ROSE-a-velt is a RUSE-a-velt -Reply I read that the different branches of the family had different preferences, either going with the original Dutch pron (ROSE) or following the spelling by English rules (RUSE). And that, in fact, Eleanor (FDR's cousin as well as his wife) was Eleanor RUSE-a-velt ROSE-a-velt. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 10:30:44 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: American Name Society -Reply Barry A. Popik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 1008.0235 The American Name Society has a homepage and a listserv ANS-L (Listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bingvmb.cc.binghamton.edu). It publishes the journal NAMES. [...] Where's the homepage? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 11:42:34 -0400 From: "Dale F.Coye" CoyeCFAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: bonified (was: Headramps/rights) "The phrase got repronounced by eye, from people reading the spelling out by English rules and getting, roughly, BO-nuh FIED." It was not repronounced by eye, but rather this is the older, anglicized pronunciation (actually BOH nuh FY dee) following the normal development of Latin words in English (cf, bonus, or the dog's name Fido; festina lente is /fes TY nuh LEN tee/. Fairly recently this has been reduced to BOH nuh fide or altered to BON uh fide. I believe the original form has pretty much died out. Dale Coye Princeton, NJ. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 10:56:00 CDT From: Edward Callary TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MVS.CSO.NIU.EDU Subject: Re: American Name Society -Reply The homepage of the American Name Society: http://ssie.binghamton.edu/admin/anshomep.html Let me know if you have problems accessing the home page, if you have questions about names, or if you would like a sample copy of the journal. ****************************************************************** Edward Callary Phone: 815-753-6627 Editor, NAMES: Fax: 815-753-0606 A Journal of Onomastics e-mail: ecallary[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu English Department Northern Illinois University DeKalb, Il 60115-2863 ****************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 13:31:40 -0400 From: KENNETH SETZER KSETZE01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SERVAX.FIU.EDU Subject: Re: come with I'm told "come with" is typical of Chicagoans ,which supports the German influence hypothesis, since a lot of Germans settled there. As a matter of fact, I hear this construction at home every day from my Chicago-born wife. Personally, I've only heard "do you want?" and "I got" objectless construc- tions from speakers with a Yiddish background, who happened to live in New York, but German and Yiddish syntax are certainly similar enough. Has anyone else heard these kinds of things in New York? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 11:10:13 -0700 From: Lex Olorenshaw lexo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LSI.SEL.SONY.COM Subject: Re: come with I'm told "come with" is typical of Chicagoans ,which supports the German influence hypothesis, since a lot of Germans settled there. As a matter of fact, I hear this construction at home every day from my Chicago-born wife. Personally, I've only heard "do you want?" and "I got" objectless construc- tions from speakers with a Yiddish background, who happened to live in New York, but German and Yiddish syntax are certainly similar enough. Has anyone else heard these kinds of things in New York? I'd say my wife's speech supports the Norwegian influence hypothesis. She lived in L.A. from age 2 to 29, but spent summers in northern Utah with grandparents from Norway. I was never quite sure if "come with"/"go with" was an L.A. thing or family influence. I am fairly sure of family influence on certain phonological traits, since my in-laws also use these (but others from L.A. don't): - "tour" is homophonous with "tore" - "pillow" rhymes with "yellow" Does anyone think these are also related to Norwegian influence? And what about the following sentence, which in my speech would be considered a dropping of the word 'space': - "I couldn't find a parking." =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Lex Olorenshaw E-mail: lexo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lsi.sel.sony.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 16:50:44 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Southern hospitality Oct. 18 Is there an ADS member who would like to represent ADS at the inauguration of Clinton Bristow Jr. as the 16th president of Alcorn State University in Lorman, Mississippi? It's very soon: Friday Oct 18 at 1 p.m. There's a luncheon before, a reception after; and on Saturday evening the 19th an Inaugural Dinner and Ball. I post this so late because the invitation itself just arrived. To be included, we'd have to make up for their lateness by acting very promptly. So if you would enjoy this opportunity for collegiality, please let me know immediately. (Just send a message directly to me at AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com.) (ADS does not have the resources to pay expenses, so you'd be donating money as well as time. In return you'd get a chance to meet all sorts of other members of the Greater Academic Community; and you would be invited to write a very short memoir for the ADS newsletter.) Thanks - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 19:47:16 -0500 From: "Albert E. Krahn" krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US Subject: DITKA Albert E. Krahn krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US 1001.2243 wrote DITKA could stand for "double income, two kinds, and an animal" but I doubt it. Hmm... could the "a" be epenthetic to make it pronounceable? -------------------------------- akra corrects himself: It should have read, of course, "two kids." I suppose Mark's suggestion is a possiblity. It's certainly hard to end it otherwise. Hm. How often does epenthesis get adopted into the spelling of a word? Does anyone have a written example besides the oral "athalete" and "oh ho say can you see . . ." ? akra ---------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Oct 1996 20:53:17 -0400 From: "ads-l Conference [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] highlands.com" XINCLXads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM Subject: Re: Southern hospitality Oct. 18 Hello out there! I have just done this at Bank Street College of Education in New York City. It's fun. Try it, you just might like it. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Oct 1996 to 8 Oct 1996 ********************************************** There are 9 messages totalling 326 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "AMERICA" and Columbus Day 2. Grand Old Man (G.O.M.) 3. Southern hospitality Oct. 18 -Reply 4. Re(2): Southern hospitality Oct. 18 -Reply 5. Re(2): Southern hospitality Oct. 18 -Reply -Reply 6. Available by calling 7. Reminder: photos needed 8. Mahen Hell (was Southern hospitality) 9. Mahen Hell (was Southern hospitality) -Reply ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 01:31:38 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "AMERICA" and Columbus Day For those interested in the American Name Society, the first article in NAMES is about the naming of "America." It's a good article, but it's far from being complete. Of all the papers on various subjects I've compiled, none exceeds my "America Papers." I've got a book on 16th century maps from the Newberry Library in Chicago that cost me $125. I've got a Map Portfolio from the Clements Library at the University of Michigan. I recently went to Bristol, England and walked up the Cabot monument (no big deal). In today's New York Post, 9 October 1996, pg. 44, "Newspaper in Education" program (In the Post??), you'll see this: How America Got Its Name The continent America [There are two--ed.] received its name in 1507, just one year after Columbus died. A French geographer [He was German--ed.] had read an account of the explorer Amerigo Vespucci's voyage down the coast of South America [Not "South America," because it wasn't named yet!--ed.]. This account was dated 1497 [I have a book of texts called LETTERS FROM A NEW WORLD: AMERIGO VESPUCCI'S DISCOVERY OF AMERICA (1992). The first letter states "Today is 18 July 1500." The other letters are not earlier--ed.], a year before Columbus traveled to South America, instead of 1499, when Vespucci's voyage actually occurred [This is disputed by some--ed.]. This geographer gave Vespucci the credit for the discovery and honored him by writing "America" on the new map he was making [Actually, the geographer's partner deserves the credit or blame for this--ed.], the first time the name was set in type and printed. Unfortunately for Columbus, this is the name that stuck to the new continent and was later extended to North America, whose mainland neither Vespucci or Columbus [Either/or, neither/nor--ed.] ever saw! Several serious errors and a grammatical error to boot! Guess those kids are gonna learn good!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 01:34:12 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Grand Old Man (G.O.M.) The "Grand Old Man" or "G.O.M." inspired the naming of the "Grand Old Party," or "G.O.P." The Grand Old Man was William E. Gladstone, who was named this in 1882. He was born 29 December 1809 and died 19 May 1898. He served as Prime Minister of England 1868-1874, 1880-1885, 1886, and 1892-1894. When he was nicknamed the G.O.M., he was about the same age as Bob Dole. The OED is surely authoritative on this and says: 'The Grand Old Man' (jocularly 'G.O.M.') was from 1882 a current journalistic appellation for W. E. Gladstone. It appears (in quotation marks) in _Punch_ 17 June 280/I. Again, surely no one can beat the Oxford English Dictionary on the naming of the great English Prime Minister. The editors of the OED had probably known Gladstone personally! No way I can beat that!! This is from Judy, of the London Serio-Comic Journal, 25 January 1882, pg. 37: Don'tee cry, now, my poppet--ketchy, ketchety, ketch-- Or black Bogie will come, or that nasty bad BRADLAUGH--the wretch! Who says that if _he_ had his way he'd clip British Royalty's wings, Abolish all queens from the land, and put down all princes and kings; And I daresay he'd like to, the rubbidge, so pompous, conceited, and grim, Unless somebody meanwhile ups and puts down and abolishes _him!_ To take his seat in Parliament on the 8th he's sworn to do all he can, And has even patronized GLADSTONE, and called him "That Grand Old Man!" I'll continue later with the "G. O. P." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 10:13:01 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: Southern hospitality Oct. 18 -Reply And what in a mahen hell is this garbage, and what is it doing on the American Dialect Society list??! ads-l Conference [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] highlands.com XINCLXads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM 1008.1953 Hello out there! I have just done this at Bank Street College of Education in New York City. It's fun. Try it, you just might like it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 11:19:33 -0400 From: Barnhart Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM Subject: Re(2): Southern hospitality Oct. 18 -Reply There was, for your information, a similar opportunity to represent the American Dialect Society at the installation of the new president of Bank Street College of Education in New York City. It was my honor to do so. And "what in the mahen hell" this is doing on the ADS-L is to let people know that, at least, I had a good time doing it. THAT'S WHAT IN THE MAHEN HELL! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 11:39:19 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re(2): Southern hospitality Oct. 18 -Reply -Reply I'm sorry for the reaction I provoked. Without the context, I didn't know what the message was about. I'm glad that the ADS was represented and I'm glad that you had a good time. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 10:17:11 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Available by calling The following sentence appears in a message I received today on another list: "The 1996 Nonprofit Law Dictionary is available by calling John Wiley Sons Inc. in Somerset, NJ at 800-225-5945." I hear the same construction repeatedly on NPR ("Music heard on NPR is available by calling [no.]"). I would immediately remove this construction from any text I was editing, and I don't think I'm just being prescriptive: it actually feels wrong to me. For me, the construction "by x-ing" has to represent a transformation of an embedded sentence with a subject and verb, with the subject identical with the one in the main sentence, and as far as I can tell, the verb in the main sentence has to be in the active voice, e.g., "You can obtain it by calling..." --- You can obtain it by [you call...]. I can't decide whether "The dictionary can be obtained by calling..." is permissible in my grammar or not: maybe the transformational relationship between active and passive voices makes it possible but marginal. But hanging a "by x-ing" construction on a predicate adjective really seems impossible for me, since there's no source for x. Has anybody else noticed this development, and is it a new phenomenon? Or has my natural grammar been polluted by pernicious prescriptivism? Or will someone cite an American Speech article from 50 years ago proving that the construction is nearly as old as I am? Or from last year proving that I haven't done my homework... Peter McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, OR ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 10:36:02 -0800 From: Mary Bucholtz bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU Subject: Reminder: photos needed Just a reminder that COSWL still needs photos of women linguists, to be exhibited at January's LSA meeting. *We are especially in need of photos of female past presidents of the LSA. We also strongly encourage departments to take group photos of current female faculty and students.* A final legal issue: if you are not the subject of a photo you submit, please secure permission for us to use it. Thanks very much! We appreciate your help. *************************************************************** * THE COMMITTEE ON THE STATUS OF WOMEN IN LINGUISTICS (COSWL) * * OF THE LINGUISTIC SOCIETY OF AMERICA * * * * announces a * * * * C A L L F O R P H O T O G R A P H S * *************************************************************** One charge of the LSA's Committee on the Status of Women in Linguistics (COSWL) is to gather and distribute information about and for women in linguistics. During the past several years, COSWL has worked toward meeting these goals by sponsoring a number of ongoing projects that track and guide women's career paths: an institutional questionnaire, a personal questionnaire, mentoring workshops, and a women's narrative project. For the 1997 LSA Annual Meeting in Chicago (January 2-5), COSWL will be organizing a special presentation entitled "The Lives of Women Linguists: Words and Images", an audio- visual forum for documenting and celebrating the lives of women in the field. The audio portion of the presentation will comprise dramatic readings based on edited and anonymous interviews of women linguists, excerpted from the newly created database for the COSWL Narrative Project. The visual presentation will consist of photographs of women linguists -- to be supplied by women and men in the field today. COSWL is asking all members of the linguistics community to help us prepare for this important event. The committee is thus soliciting photographs of women linguists from all levels of the discipline, from undergraduate students to professors emeritae. Photos should feature women in linguistics, either alone or in groups. COSWL is especially interested in collecting photographs of all of the LSA's past women presidents, as a tribute to their important contributions to the society. COSWL invites all interested parties to contribute to the project by lending up to 7 photographs consistent with the theme of the exhibit. (Anyone with a larger number of photos that they believe would be of special value to the project should contact David Silva before submitting them.) To submit photos, please follow these instructions: 1. Select up to seven photographs depicting women in linguistics and label the back of each with your name, phone #, and e-mail address. We suggest that you use a mailing label to do this; do not write directly on the back of the photo, as the pressure of the pen may damage the print. (If you are not the subject of a photo, please secure permission for us to use it.) 2. Also attach to the back of the photograph the names of all identifiable subjects; this can be done with either a label (preferred) or with a "post-it". If there is more than one person in the photo, please clearly identify each. 3. Place (a) the photographs and (b) a self-addressed stamped envelope (with sufficient postage and clearly marked "PHOTOS: DO NOT BEND") into a [slightly] larger envelope (also marked "DO NOT BEND") and send to: David Silva or Mary Bucholtz Attn: COSWL Photos Attn: COSWL Photos UTA Linguistics -- Box 19559 Dept of Linguistics, UC Berkeley Arlington, TX 76019-0559 2337 Dwinelle Hall Berkeley, CA 94720-2650 Selected photographs will be digitally enlarged and reproduced for the January exhibit. All photographs will be returned in the self-addressed stamped envelopes you provide. After the Chicago meeting, the materials from the LSA exhibit will be archived on the World Wide Web, thereby allowing greater access to the words and images of women in the field. PLEASE SUBMIT YOUR PHOTOS NO LATER THAN FRIDAY, NOVEMBER 1, 1996. If you have questions, please contact a member of COSWL or e-mail Mary Bucholtz at bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]garnet.berkeley.edu or David Silva at DAVID[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTA.EDU. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 14:17:18 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: Mahen Hell (was Southern hospitality) Am I the only person on this list who never heard the expression "mahen hell" before this exchange? I also didn't find it in my AHD, the only dictionary I have handy at the moment. Can someone enlighten me about it? Peter McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, OR On Wed, 9 Oct 1996, Barnhart wrote: There was, for your information, a similar opportunity to represent the American Dialect Society at the installation of the new president of Bank Street College of Education in New York City. It was my honor to do so. And "what in the mahen hell" this is doing on the ADS-L is to let people know that, at least, I had a good time doing it. THAT'S WHAT IN THE MAHEN HELL! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 18:05:08 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: Mahen Hell (was Southern hospitality) -Reply Oh, dear. Oh, my. Okay. In reply to Peter McGraw's query, and in apology to all whom I may have offended and/or confused, I attach after his question the reply I sent to another list member who asked me by email. Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU 1009.1617 Am I the only person on this list who never heard the expression "mahen hell" before this exchange? I also didn't find it in my AHD, the only dictionary I have handy at the moment. Can someone enlighten me about it? [quotation of preceding exchange deleted; it was under the subject "Southern hospitality" and various "Reply" forms thereof] Yah. I'm kinda red-faced now; I delete ADS-L items after reading (unless I especially want to follow the thread), and the header line alone wasn't enough of a cue to the context of the invitation that I read yesterday or the day before. I have had it up to here and beyond with spammers, junk emailers, flamers, and irrelevant cross-posters in my office and home mailboxes and on the unmoderated newsgroups I subscribe to, and I just popped off at what appeared to be yet another one. "What in a mahen hell...?" is from C.J.Cherryh's sf "Chanur" series. The POV characters are felinoid *hani*; humans are rare interlopers in the space controlled by the seven species of the Compact. The hani don't seem to believe in a hell, but the anthropoid and often religion-besotted *mahendo'sat* (Cherryh plays a lot with languages ;-)\ ) have hundreds of weird sects and beliefs, many incomprehensible to a non-mahen. This is a common interjection among the spacegoing hani. I should have left it with them as far as this issue was concerned. -- Mark Mandel Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------- Postnote on initialisms, in hope of forestalling further extensions of this off-topic issue: "POV" = point-of-view, borrowed I believe from film/video script terminology. I used it here to indicate that the story is told from the point of view of these characters. "sf", in case anyone doesn't know, is "science fiction", and generally preferred by the aficionados thereof to "sci-fi", which many take as condescending. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Oct 1996 to 9 Oct 1996 ********************************************** There are 18 messages totalling 460 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. An early "Jack Frost" 2. Available by calling (2) 3. E-mail address for Language (2) 4. come with 5. push the envelope etc (2) 6. come with and mergers 7. Stoled (4) 8. Sorry! 9. Mary, full of grapes 10. mairzie dotes, etc. 11. Mary, full of grapes/Mondegreens 12. === For Sale - Best offer: Pitney Bowes Model 6900 Supplies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 01:55:49 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: An early "Jack Frost" Is it too early to bring out my "Jack Frost" items and antedate? In the Philadelphia Inquirer, 10 December 1909, pg. 1 there's a nice picture of him as "Santa's Advance Agent." In the Inquirer of 9 December 1906, pg. 1, he's "On Time." On 18 December 1906, pg. 5, col. 1, the Inquirer explained, "The frozen-bearded being in Fred Morgan's cartoon for last Sunday's Inquirer is, of course, the artist's impersonation of 'Jack Frost,' the spirit of cold and frost in nursery mythology, whom Robert Burns described in his 'Bigs of Ayr,' as he 'beneath the silent beam, Crept, gently-crustling, o'er the glittering stream.'" In the Mercury Illustrated Alamanc for 1879 (Newport, RI), there's an illustration of "Jack Frost Pinching a Boy's Nose." In Punch of 10 December 1898, pg. 267, he's "Mr. John Frost." In Vanity Fair of 23 November 1861, pg. 238, he's "Old Daddy Frost." A long Jack Frost poem can be found in the Lincoln Journal (VT), 22 January 1846, pg. 4, col. 1. Robert Hendrickson's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF WORD AND PHRASE ORIGINS says Jack Frost "has been the personification of frost or cold weather since at least 1826, when the term is first recorded in a British sporting magazine." For those who want an early Frost, this comes from The Scourge (London), 1 February 1814 (first page of issue): THE DIVINE AND THE DONKEY; or, PETWORTH FROLICS ... My loyalty is unquestionable, for I once got my head broke in defending the "right divine" of kings against a noted republican, who figured away when Jack Frost first rose into popularity.... What does this "Jack Frost" mean?? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 10:41:57 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Available by calling My emotions are totally in agreement with you about this particular construction--it has been around for a long time, and it has always troubled me at a sort of subconscious level. I guess what distresses me is the "dangling modifier" aspect: "It is available through calling . . ." has the same "flaw" as "Calling 1-800-682-0819, it will be available." Or "Seeing the growling dog, it bit me." People who regularly read and grade student essays keep lists of dangling-modifier howlers that their students have created. Having taught such courses myself, I am conditioned to think of such constructions as "bad"--even though the descriptive linguist in me tells me that they are often pretty much natural and normal and even sometimes communicate quite effectively (if one can lay aside the prescriptiveproscrsiptive rules). Or should I say, *"Having taught such courses myself, such constructions make my purist spine crawl, . . ."?! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 09:38:31 -0500 From: allenjh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAT.COM Subject: E-mail address for Language Does anyone know the e-mail address for Language (LSA journal)? I need to make an address change and know that this can be done via e-mail. Please reply to me directly rather than to the list. Thanks, Jeff ALLEN Translation Services Caterpillar Inc East Peoria, Illinois, USA Tel: (+1) 309-675-0712 Fax: (+1) 309-675-9773 E-mail: allenjh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cat.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 09:15:14 -0600 From: Kat Rose Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPOT.COLORADO.EDU Subject: Re: Available by calling Peter McGraw asked about the construction "is available by calling." I can't tell you anything about the history of the phrase, but I write and edit for a living, and I change this to a simple "is available from...at..." at every opportunity. "...may be ordered by calling" would be on less shaky ground, grammatically, but "from" would still be the better choice, on the KISS principle. [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] -- --- Kat Rose Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]spot.Colorado.edu My words, my rights, my responsibility ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 11:37:54 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: come with The uhr/ohr and ihr/ehr (or ihl/ehl, as Lex noted it) mergers are a very common pattern in English phonological change which Bill Labov has written about, among others (Labov Yaeger & Steiner 1972 has lots of charts showing it, and Labov 1994 "Princ. of Ling. Change" updates this line of research). ihr/ehr occurs in a variety of dialects of English from Norwich, England to the SW US, eg Albuquerque and NYC, but is generally a near-merger rather than a true merger. Labov's Principle II of chain-shifting governs both: lax nuclei fall along a non-peripheral track, i.e. here the Ihr and Uhr are lax and begin to fall towards Ehr and Ohr respectively, resulting in apparent merger in perception, though not generally in production (in casual speech). So this is a general pattern that applies to Western Us dialects as well as others, but not a lexical or L.A.-specific one. (Dennis P. or others will surely correct me if I've got it wrong!) --peter patrick georgetown u. linguistics dept. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 10:44:27 -0500 From: Scott Ann M ams8950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USL.EDU Subject: push the envelope etc Can anyone tell explain the phrase "push the envelope?" I've been hearing it for some time in contexts where it appears to mean something like "to push or stretch one's limits." Also, I need to know about any published work on such speech errors as "Hail Mary full of grapes, The Lord's whisky" for Hail Mary full of grace, The Lord is with you, or "frost teeth" for floss teeth, or Mary had a little lamb, her fleas (or feets) was white as snow. I know Victoria Fromkin has done speech error work, but not this sort I think. Anybody know anything or have any ideas on this kind of error. It appears common among the illiterate or semi-literate, and of course children. Cases where the speaker is not familiar with the written version of the song, prayer, phrase or whatever. Ann Martin Scott ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 16:51:24 -0400 From: Bob Haas rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: push the envelope etc Ann, The phrase, to my knowledge, came into popular use following the publication of Tom Wolfe's _The Right Stuff_, the story of the Mercury Astronauts and the ranks of test pilots from which they were drawn. The pilots talked of "pushing the edge of the envelope," i.e., the edge of the aerodynamic envelope which kept them aloft. Sometimes they lost their envelope, and their planes became non-aerodynamic--just pieces of metal twisting around in the sky until the pilot either (or his plane) regained control or smashed into the ground. The pilots Wolfe discusses date back to just after WWII, when aerodynamic engineering became more technical and deadly. The book came out . . . 1980? I read it in paperback in '84 after seeing the Phillip Kaufman movie, which is very entertaining in its own right. Bob Haas UNCG Department of English rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu "No matter where you go, there you are." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 18:07:07 -0400 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: come with and mergers As others have noted, "come with" is similar to the separable prefix (or verb+particle) constructions common in German, Norwegian, etc.; I heard it regularly growing up in Minnesota and still use it (much to the consternation of my non-Minnesotan son). This must be kept distinct from the "drop off" construction, however. The latter deletes a direct object, whether pre- or post-particle (in the child examples cited, that is, not in the intransitive usage in, e.g., "He dropped off the face of the earth"). If the verb+particle form is derived from an object-focused construction (as my syntactician colleague claims it does), it is from the prep.+object one ("come with me"), not the verb+D.O. construction. And this syntactic form has nothing to do, of course, with the uhr/ohr and ihr/ehr (near) mergers, which I never heard in Minnesota. Both are common in Baltimore and, I believe, Philadelphia--and D.C., Peter? Beverly Flanigan Ohio University ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 17:23:47 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: Stoled I found myself using the word "stoled" as the past tense of "steal" and was corrected by a smart friend. Anybody have any ideas on usage? I don't have any decent reference guides here, but I am fairly certain this is not a word. I am from Missouri, and I'm pretty sure that's standard usage among my peers. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]jerrynet.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 17:38:24 -0500 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: E-mail address for Language Amazing to see notice of another linguist within 100 miles of Macomb. What do you do at Caterpiller? Tim Frazer English Dept. Western Illinois University Macomb IL 61455 On Thu, 10 Oct 1996 allenjh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cat.com wrote: Does anyone know the e-mail address for Language (LSA journal)? I need to make an address change and know that this can be done via e-mail. Please reply to me directly rather than to the list. Thanks, Jeff ALLEN Translation Services Caterpillar Inc East Peoria, Illinois, USA Tel: (+1) 309-675-0712 Fax: (+1) 309-675-9773 E-mail: allenjh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cat.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 17:51:30 -0500 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Sorry! Woops, I pushed the wrong button and sent my message to Jeff to the whole list. Sorry, Jeff; sorry, everyone. Damn newfangled technology! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 17:33:47 -0600 From: Kat Rose Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPOT.COLORADO.EDU Subject: Mary, full of grapes Ann Scott asked about expressions that result from mishearing. The Copyeditors List had quite a thread going on this topic a few months ago. These mishearings are called *mondegreens*: "A _mondegreen_ is a concept that takes shape in someone's mind as spoken (or sung) words run together without being understood. I believe it comes from a delightful and literate essay--title, author, and publication forgotten, alas, ...--that described a number of instances, including the elision of lines from a ballad "They have killed the Earl of Murray and laid him on the green" to "... and Lady Mondegreen." (Hilary Powers, CopyEditors-L, August 1996) I only kept a few snippets, but these include two sources: --Jon Carrol's "Near-Life Experiences," has a whole section on Mondegreens: Chronicle Books, San Francisco, 1993. ISBN 0-8118-0307-4 --William Safire's _On Language_, pages 166-72 and 252 --Web pages on mondegreens: Most of them deal with the lyrics of rock songs. http://clever.net/quinion/words/monde.htm includes links to other mondegreen pages. Two of the examples given were "Have an iced A" and a song based on mondegreens, Mairzie Dotes: "Oh, mairzie dotes and dosey dotes, en liddle amsie divey. A kiddley divey, too; wooden you...Oh, Cowzie tweet and sowsie tweet and liddel sharksie doisters. A kiddley doisters, too; wooden you?" If you have trouble finding sources, Ann, let me know, and I'll ask if someone else saved more than I did. (There was enough on the topic that it might even have been saved as a FAQ.) [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] -- --- Kat Rose Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]spot.Colorado.edu My words, my rights, my responsibility ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 21:31:50 -0400 From: TERRY IRONS t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: Stoled On Thu, 10 Oct 1996, Grant Barrett wrote: I found myself using the word "stoled" as the past tense of "steal" and was corrected by a smart friend. Anybody have any ideas on usage? I don't have any decent reference guides here, but I am fairly certain this is not a word. I am from Missouri, and I'm pretty sure that's standard usage among my peers. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]jerrynet.com You say that you use "stoled" as the past tense of "steal," but that this was corrected by someone. Question What did this person suggest was the correct usage? In natural speech the dental preterit marker of past tense is generally lost after a liquid consonant. [a second order constraint] But the question remains. WHat did someone tell you that you should say? Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 21:52:10 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: mairzie dotes, etc. Concerning "mairzie dotes and dosey dotes, en liddle amsie divey. A kiddley . . ." Dale Randall published a wonderful article on the history of this song in a very recent issue of AMERICAN SPEECH. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 19:58:45 -0600 From: Kat Rose Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPOT.COLORADO.EDU Subject: Mary, full of grapes/Mondegreens Mondegreens just came up again on the Copyediting list: "...a two-tier system where, if you could afford to *jump the cue*, you should be allowed to" was presented by Claudette Upton (COPYEDITING-L, 10-8-96), from a piece she was editing, as an example of "homophonophobia." I can imagine an explanation for "jump the cue" instead of "jump the queue," albeit a weak one. Jumping the cue could be the same as a false start -- going off half-cocked, if you will. As in, starting before the cue to start has been given. __Madeline Koch, COPYEDITING-L, 10-9-96. Unless anyone has already come up with a 'blessed' definition for mondegreens, I think we're making progress. I would offer that a true mondegreen would not only be a misheard word or phrase but one for which some explanation for the erroneous version--however weak--is offered to justify one's belief in the validity of the alternative. "Jump the cue" is now a worthy candidate, IMHO. __Paul Witheridge, COPYEDITING-L, 10-10-96 IMO, "jumping the cue" and "one in the same" are mondegreens....These are, as Paul suggests, cases of misunderstanding the spoken word, transferring it to written form, and seeing it as--however weakly--explicable, albeit odd-looking. __Dan A. Wilson [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] -- --- Kat Rose Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]spot.Colorado.edu My words, my rights, my responsibility ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 22:55:28 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: Stoled I once had an educated Jamaican informant say "stoled" in an interview. I remember it because it was one of only two consonant cluster hypercorrections with past "-t" in several thousand that I analyzed (the other was "camed"), so I felt pretty justified concluding that hypercorrection was not rampant and that people who used past "-t/-d" knew what they were doing. This is of course an unusual direction of regularization. What usually happens is that doubly-marked or semi-weak verbs such as "tol-d", "lef-t" get regularized and bleed the category of semi-weak verbs, which has been steadily shrinking in English, I believe. Thus for "dreamt" you get "dreamed", for "leapt" "leaped", etc. Guy & Boyd 1990 in Language Variation & Change list 17 semi-weak verbs, to which one could add at least "cleave/cleft". They also propose that as people get older, right on into middle-age, they change their pattern, only gradually reanalyzing the final -t as a past morpheme; if true, then extending it by analogy is not impossible. The trouble is, most of the verbs are so common that one could hardly get to middle age without knowing the correct form (even if one didn't analyze it as an affix). So I don't know-- why DID my speaker say "stoled"? [or Grant Barrett, for that matter!] --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 22:59:12 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: Stoled Oh yeah. I started cause I was gonna point out that, though Terry quite rightly says final preterite -d is often deleted after /l/, it's less often deleted than either mono-morphemic -d ("cold") or than -d after any other consonant. /l/ is the least favoring preceding environment for TD-Deletion, both in empirical findings and in terms of the sonority hierarchies often invoked to explain them. --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Oct 1996 12:04:00 +0700 From: mb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BIGFOOT.COM Subject: === For Sale - Best offer: Pitney Bowes Model 6900 Supplies === For Sale - Best offer: Pitney Bowes Model 6900 Supplies Pitney Bowes Postage Meter Model #6900 Supplies: Will sell the below supplies for the best offer, individually or as a package. 2 brand-new red ink rollers, never used.......... WILL TAKE BEST OFFER (Pitney Bowes currently sells them for $31.99 plus shipping). 2 red ink rollers, used only once each for 1 envelope each, for testing.........WILL TAKE BEST OFFER (Pitney Bowes currently sells them for $31.99 plus shipping). 2 red/black ink roller, freshly inked, makes like-new imprints........WILL TAKE BEST OFFER (Pitney Bowes currently sells them for $31.99 plus shipping). 1 "smiley face" ad plate to cheer up your mail!...........WILL TAKE BEST OFFER (Pitney Bowes price = $49.95 plus shipping). 1 bulk rate ad plate for when you do bulk rate mailings..........WILL TAKE BEST OFFER (Pitney Bowes price = $49.95 plus shipping). Will sell above individually or as a package deal, for best offer(s). Thanks, -- mb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bigfoot.com ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Oct 1996 to 10 Oct 1996 *********************************************** There are 32 messages totalling 817 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. [BB] === For Sale - Best offer: Pitney Bowes Model 6900 Supplies 2. Hail Mary, Full of Grapes (2) 3. LIMERICK STANZA: an antedate 4. M/MLA and ADS in Mpls 5. obnoxious junk mail 6. Stoled (4) 7. American Dialect Society newsletter 8. obnoxious junk mail -Reply 9. Mary, full of grapes (2) 10. Mondegreens (4) 11. Bounced Mail 12. Mondegreens -Reply (2) 13. No subject given 14. bull-pucky and horse-pucky 15. Mondegreens -Reply -Reply 16. I'm always ready to come with! 17. RE Re: Stoled 18. slown (2) 19. %Irish speech 20. Irish slang 21. a whole nother (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 23:17:25 CDT From: Gary McClellan gary[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GDMA.COM Subject: Re: [BB] === For Sale - Best offer: Pitney Bowes Model 6900 Supplies Please cease posting these ads to the business-basic list. They do not fall within the range of acceptable postings. --- Gary McClellan | Gary D. McClellan and Associates Ltd. Internet: gary[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gdma.com | The Business Basic Specialists http://www.gdma.com | P.O. Box 476 Clinton, WI 53525 Phone: +1.608.676.5495 | Fax: +1.608.676.5838 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Oct 1996 23:35:53 -0500 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: Hail Mary, Full of Grapes 1. There's a song about Jesse James which has the line "And he plowed on the Rocky Mountain shore." (Which is all I remember of the song.) Does anyone have any idea what this is mondegreened from? 2. Heard while half-listening to a public radio newscast: "Dinosaurs and the crime rate." Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 01:31:42 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: LIMERICK STANZA: an antedate "Limerick stanza" eluded me during my short stay in Limerick, Ireland, but my stuff is still better than the standard references. OED: "Said to be from a custom at convivial parties, according to which each member sang an extemporized 'nonsense-verse', which was followed by a chorus containing the words 'Will you come up to Limerick?'" The earliest cite is May 1896, and it doesn't provide much meaning. In 1846, Edward Lear's book of "nonsense verse" came out. In Judy: The London Serio-Comic Journal of 23 October 1895, pg. 193, there are four "Romantic Rhymes" starting "Quoth a musical Old Maid of Lee," "A certain masher of Pandy," "A bloodthirsty brigand of Greece," and "'Observe,' cried a man from Penang." In Judy's Almanac for July 1894, it's called a "rhymelet." In FUN (London) of 15 January 1895, pg. 91, it's titled "Geography in the Nursery." In FUN of 14 January 1896, it's "Nursery Rhymes." The earliest "Limerick stanza" is a month away from OED's "Limerick" and is in Judy of 24 June 1896, pg. 615, col. 1, in a story about the "Guest of the Hour: The G. O. M.": ...I propose to call 'Recreations of a Retired Life.' It's a collection of little poems scribbled on spoiled post-cards, and mainly autobiographical in character, though not invariably so. The metre is presumably an Irish one, commonly called the "Limerick stanza." It does not occur in Horace. Shall I begin?" "If you please," said Judy eagerly. The young men were also eager. The Ancient arranged a bundle of post-cards on the table, and then, selecting one, proceeded to read aloud, with fine elocution :-- "There lives an old Woodman in Wales Who cut Parliamentary pales, And fled from the bustle Of politic tussle To annotate nursery tales." "Therein," said Judy, "I find at least one essential of great poetry--Truth. Pray proceed." ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------- O. K., I got it! Here goes-- "There once was a man on the Internet...." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 01:34:15 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hail Mary, Full of Grapes Jose, can you see? (Our National Anthem.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 01:18:37 -0500 From: "Albert E. Krahn" krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US Subject: M/MLA and ADS in Mpls Does anyone know where I could access the full program and registraton form for the Minneapolis meeting Nov. 7-9 online? akra ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:52:31 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: obnoxious junk mail The junk mail that you are sending to the ADS-L (American Dialect Society) mailing list is obnoxious and unwanted. Please stop. This is the second time I have written to complain. Is there some reason why you continue to be so rude and obnoxious? Danny Long mb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BIGFOOT.COM wrote: === For Sale - Best offer: Pitney Bowes Model 6900 Supplies Pitney Bowes Postage Meter Model #6900 Supplies: Will sell the below supplies for the best offer, individually or as a package. 2 brand-new red ink rollers, never used.......... WILL TAKE BEST OFFER (Pitney Bowes currently sells them for $31.99 plus shipping). 2 red ink rollers, used only once each for 1 envelope each, for testing.........WILL TAKE BEST OFFER (Pitney Bowes currently sells them for $31.99 plus shipping). 2 red/black ink roller, freshly inked, makes like-new imprints........WILL TAKE BEST OFFER (Pitney Bowes currently sells them for $31.99 plus shipping). 1 "smiley face" ad plate to cheer up your mail!...........WILL TAKE BEST OFFER (Pitney Bowes price = $49.95 plus shipping). 1 bulk rate ad plate for when you do bulk rate mailings..........WILL TAKE BEST OFFER (Pitney Bowes price = $49.95 plus shipping). Will sell above individually or as a package deal, for best offer(s). Thanks, -- mb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bigfoot.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 08:06:54 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: Stoled Terry is right about the second-order constraint, but what if it doesn't apply to Grant? Is Grant from the 'right' part of Missouri to be an l-vocalizer? If so, his 'stoled' would be (nearly) homophonous with 'stowed.' /d/ would not be lost since it is no longer part of a final cluster. (My Milwaukee wife regularly makes fun of my homophonous 'told' and 'toad.') mimbr, ahtoadjuhsew DInIs On Thu, 10 Oct 1996, Grant Barrett wrote: I found myself using the word "stoled" as the past tense of "steal" and was corrected by a smart friend. Anybody have any ideas on usage? I don't have any decent reference guides here, but I am fairly certain this is not a word. I am from Missouri, and I'm pretty sure that's standard usage among my peers. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]jerrynet.com You say that you use "stoled" as the past tense of "steal," but that this was corrected by someone. Question What did this person suggest was the correct usage? In natural speech the dental preterit marker of past tense is generally lost after a liquid consonant. [a second order constraint] But the question remains. WHat did someone tell you that you should say? Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:07:47 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: American Dialect Society newsletter On October 11, copies of the 32-page Newsletter of the American Dialect Society went out in first-class US Mail (and airmail overseas) to the 500 odd scholars and language savants who belong to the American Dialect Society. The newsletter is where you'll find program details of coming regional and national meetings; calls for papers for meetings next year; directory of members; notices of new books by members; and the latest news about the Dictionary of American Regional English, whose third volume is to be published next month. The back page of this issue features a coupon that will save you $15 on the price of DARE III - as well as the two previous volumes, if you don't have them yet. If you aren't yet an ADS member, you can get an invitation and a copy of this issue by sending me your s-mail address. Or you can leap directly into membership by sending $30 annual dues ($15 for students) to American Dialect Society Allan Metcalf, Executive Secretary MacMurray College English Department Jacksonville, Illinois 62650 AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com Here is just one of the many announcements in the newsletter: --------------------- The 11th Biennial meeting of the Dictionary Society of North America will be hosted by the Dictionary of American Regional English at the University of Wisconsin, Madison, Thursday through Saturday, May 29-31, 1997. For many years, ADS has been happy to designate DSNA as our own official Summer Meeting, since membership and interests of the two societies happily intertwine. Attendance is about 75 and there is only one session at a time, allowing opportunity for everyone to get acquainted. Most of the makers of American dictionaries attend, as do most of the scholars who study them. The banquet will be a "Traditional Wisconsin Picnic, including a Door County Fish Boil." January 31 is the deadline for two copies of a one-page abstract to co-chairs Joan Houston Hall and Luanne von Schneidemesser at DARE, 6125 Helen White Hall, 600 N. Park St., Madison, WI 53706, or by e-mail to jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu. Papers may address any aspect of dictionaries or lexicography, either historical or contemporary. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 10:21:24 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: obnoxious junk mail -Reply People, take note: Our list is set up in such a way that replies go to the list, not to the original sender. If you reply with the REPLY option of your mailer, you are talking to all of us list subscribers, and not to the jerk who is sending us this $#!+. That is pointless, since it doesn't get to the abuser and adds more junk to OUR mailboxes. Look through the message and the headers. Write to the [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]$$#01{ him/her/itself (who will probably just ignore it anyway), and to the postmasters of the source systems, not to the list. Here is the message that I just sent. The moron's email address appears as mb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bigfoot.com, so I sent it to postmaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bigfoot.com and to abuse[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com (AOL has this special address for complaints of Net abuse), with a copy to the boor. --------- quoted message --------- This jerk is repeatedly spamming this piece of crud to our list (American Dialect Society). It is irrelevant and out of place here. Please stuff his machinery into his throat, from the back end, and then read him the rules of Netiquette and cancel his account. Thank you. I am not sure whether my mailer will include the header, so I append it here. The "comments-to" line lists an AOL address, so I am sending this note to abuse[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com as well. ------- end of quoted message ------------ Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 10:30:20 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: Re: Stoled Dennis Preston said; Is Grant from the 'right' part of Missouri to be an l-vocalizer? Yes, I am an l-vocalizer. I used to live in Little Dixie, up in Audrain County, and that area is rife with told/toad, cold/code, bold/bode, etc., but I, thank God, did not pick it up. Drives me nuts. Terry Irons said: What did this person suggest was the correct usage [of steal, pt]? Stole, I believe. The only definition I can find for "stoled" is to be wrapped in a mink stole. Peter Patrick said: why DID my speaker say "stoled"? [or Grant Barrett, for that matter!] I have no idea. I first encountered a problem with this word earlier in the year when I tried to spell it and realized, looking at it, that it was not a word. I continue to use it, however. I like it. Grant Barrett ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 09:01:06 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: Mary, full of grapes Kat Rose's message reminds me of a book I had as a kid. Titled "Sillynyms," it was a whole book of what I now realize are Mondegreens - that is, if you count facetious ones (like "Mairzy doats and dozy doats") as genuine, as some contributors to this discussion seem to. I can't remember the author, and the book seems to be long gone. Examples include a "quote" from a poem (by Hawthorne?): "....comes a pause in the day's occupations That is known as the chilled wren's hour." Others probably don't qualify as mondegreens, since they were too far-fetched and nonsensical to have any plausibility as genuine mis-hearings, e.g.: "She'll be common ground amounting winshield comes." Some were furnished with elaborate explanations. With others, such as the latter, none was even attempted. Peter McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, OR ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 12:02:34 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Mondegreens So "take it for granite" surely qualifies, eh? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 11:03:16 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Bounced Mail **************************************************************** REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES TO ADS-L IN THE HEADERS. **************************************************************** Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 11:54:39 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at UGA (1.8b)" LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: ADS-L: error report from CS.HAMPTONU.EDU The enclosed message, found in the ADS-L mailbox and shown under the spool ID 0473 in the system log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to the list has been found in mail body. -------------------- Message in error (27 lines) -------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 12:04:46 -0400 (EDT) From: "Margaret G. Lee -English" mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cs.hamptonu.edu Subject: Re: Hail Mary, Full of Grapes "... and to the Republic, for Richard Stans..." (Pledge to the Flag) Margaret Lee On Fri, 11 Oct 1996, Barry A. Popik wrote: Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 01:34:15 -0400 From: Barry A. Popik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hail Mary, Full of Grapes Jose, can you see? (Our National Anthem.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 12:11:52 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: Stoled Grant, How can you be an l-vocalizer and also one who did not pick it up? I'm confused. (Gid thayng ah kin tahp e-mail to yih; mah pronunsayshun would drahv yih nuts.) DInIs Dennis Dennis Preston said; Is Grant from the 'right' part of Missouri to be an l-vocalizer? Yes, I am an l-vocalizer. I used to live in Little Dixie, up in Audrain County, and that area is rife with told/toad, cold/code, bold/bode, etc., but I, thank God, did not pick it up. Drives me nuts. Terry Irons said: What did this person suggest was the correct usage [of steal, pt]? Stole, I believe. The only definition I can find for "stoled" is to be wrapped in a mink stole. Peter Patrick said: why DID my speaker say "stoled"? [or Grant Barrett, for that matter!] I have no idea. I first encountered a problem with this word earlier in the year when I tried to spell it and realized, looking at it, that it was not a word. I continue to use it, however. I like it. Grant Barrett ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 12:07:15 PDT From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: Mary, full of grapes An old example -- A first grade teacher asked the class to draw a picture illustrating the carol, Silent Night. Back when you could do that. One picture was all stick figures except for one rotund guy standing at the manger. Asked who that was, the child said, "Round John Virgin" Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net When I die and go to Hell, at least I can get my same ISP. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 12:53:02 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Mondegreens -Reply I think William Safire coined the name "mondegreen", from a personal example: They have slain the Earl of Morrey and Lady Mondegreen. [... laid him on the green] Since some of Safire's assistants read this list (or at least query it), we may get confirmation / disconfirmation soon. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 13:53:41 EDT From: Michael Montgomery N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM.SC.EDU Subject: No subject given _Stoled_ sounds pretty natural to me, whether because I'm a convicted l- vocalizer or for some other reason, but there's another verb principal part I heard myself using recently that caught me up short. It's not in any of the three reference works on usage I have consulted so far. Here it is: If you weren't going so fast, you could have slown down. Sound familiar to y'all or is it just my hillbilly English? Michael Montgomery Dept of English Univ of South Carolina Columbia SC 29208 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 14:10:51 -0400 From: Bill Spruiell 3lfyuji[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU Subject: Re: Mondegreens A former colleague of mine had a boyfriend who was a doctor and who collected misapprehensions of medical terms (which proved to be common, since most people find medical jargon only slightly more comprehensible than Linear A). The items that stuck in my mind were: Texas Cyclone = tetracycline precious pills = blood pressure pills spiral many-Jesus = spinal meningitis The second item, according to a pharmacist relative, is quite common. It looks as though speakers are trying to analyze strings that are incomprehensible to them as if they were made up of comprehensibe items, but without any requirement that the expression as a whole is comprehensible. For example, one would have to wonder about the religious world-view of someone who approached "Hail Mary full of grapes" and "spiral many-Jesus" as being meaningful in the normal sense. This doesn't rule out the possibility of also trying to make sense of the expression in the normal way -- "precious pills" makes a kind of sense if one has to take them to stay healthy -- but sense doesn't seem to be a requirement. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 14:49:24 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Mondegreens The last time we discussed mondegreens, according to my files, was in October '95. During this discussion, someone mentioned that Steven Pinker (_Language Instinct_) attributes this coinage to the columnist Jon Carroll, based on his own mishearing of the ballad "The Bonnie Earl O'Moray" ('They have slain the Earl O'Moray/And laid him on the green'). They are essentially equivalent to what Fromkin and Rodman (following a different coinage) call Pullet Surprises. Another compilation appeareed a while further back on Linguist List (March '94) --both the Linguist and the ADS-L discussions should be available on the appropriate archives. Just within the medical diagnostic realm, besides the spinal meningitis (which I've heard mondegreenized as 'sighs of baby Jesus' rather than 'spiral many-Jesus', and it does parse a bit better), there's 'very-close veins', 'roaches of the liver', 'sick-as-hell anemia', and of course 'old-timer's disease'. It's always difficult to tell which are genuine mishearings and which are self-conscious reanalyses (a la 'monokini'). --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:00:59 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: bull-pucky and horse-pucky An inquiry has just come in that I can't begin to answer. Can anyone on ADS-L give a try? Please reply to Professor Yamada as well as to the list. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------- I wanted to understand the etymological explanation of the "pucky" in "bull-pucky" and "horse-pucky". I just wondered if the coming volume of DARE includes "pucky" or not, but no dictionary refers to its etymological explanation. Does it have any relation to "hocky"? A sort of rhyming slang? Then, what is the origin of "hocky"? I wanted to have some clue to the above questions badly, and I wanted to ask for your help with my question. Thank you very very much, and I am looking for your kind advice. Masayoshi Yamada Chair/Professor of Linguistics Dept. of English Faculty of Education Shimane University 1060 Nishikwatsu-cho Matsue City, Shimane-ken fax:0852-32-6279 690 JAPAN e-mail: masa-ya[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]edu.shimane-u.ac.jp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:06:08 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: Mondegreens -Reply You wrote to ADS-L: A former colleague of mine had a boyfriend who was a doctor and who collected misapprehensions of medical terms (which proved to be common, since most people find medical jargon only slightly more comprehensible than Linear A). You wouldn't be able to put me in touch with that doctor, would you? Believe it or not, that list could be useful here! BTW, how do you pronounce your last name? That particular sequence of vowel letters (Dutch in origin??) defeats me. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 13:29:41 -0600 From: Jason Krantz jasonk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHADOW.SJCSF.EDU Subject: Re: Stoled Hey all. I don't understand (but I don't necessarily object to) the use of "stoled." The -ed seems redundant. One already has the past in "stole." Why add the same sense again with "-ed?" This is about as comprehensible to my East Coast sensiblities as "roded"would be for the past tense of "ride." . (An aside: I'm from near Baltimore, MD. Having a large number of American dialects is a beautiful thing. That doesn't make the Baltimore accent any less ugly.) I suppose it makes sense if one drops the L. BTW, "l-vocalizer." seems to be used in two different senses. Which is correct? Regards, Jason jasonk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.sjcsf.edu I first encountered a problem with this word earlier in the year when I tried to spell it and realized, looking at it, that it was not a word. I continue to use it, however. I like it. Grant Barrett ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:59:04 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: Mondegreens -Reply -Reply GRRRR!! I'm SURE I doctored the To: field of that last message to contain only the name of the one person it was meant for! Murphy rules, after all. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:27:23 -0500 From: Ed Deluzain bethed[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.INTEROZ.COM Subject: Re: Mondegreens One of my former students wrote this to me today: I have a potential Mondegreen for you. In crew, when the coxswain wants the rowers to stop the boat they say, "Weigh enough". But until I saw it written down on a rowing web page, I thought they were saying "Wain up". Ed Deluzain [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] Ed Deluzain bethed[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]interoz.com--Home deluzhe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dolphin1.mosley.bay.k12.fl.us--School http://interoz.com/usr/bethed--Home Page [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 17:00:32 -0400 From: Donna Metcalf Ddonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: I'm always ready to come with! After living here (central Illinois) for more than 20 years, I am always shocked when someone says "Where's it at?" I used to tell my students "It's behind the at." They never got it. However, growing up on Chicago and to this day "Do you want to come with?" sounds just right to me. Donna Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 17:27:36 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Re: Stoled Ummm... I'm an amateur. I figgered an "l-vocalizer" meant "someone who pronounces the Ls". I do pronounce the "l" in cold, old, told, bold, etc. Grant Barrett -------------------------------------- Denis said: How can you be an l-vocalizer and also one who did not pick it up? I'm confused. (Gid thayng ah kin tahp e-mail to yih; mah pronunsayshun would drahv yih nuts.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 17:36:13 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: slown If you weren't going so fast, you could have slown down. Sound familiar to y'all or is it just my hillbilly English? I've had precisely the same experience you just described: it has come out of my mouth, feeling quite natural, and then I've stopped and thought, "Slown? There's no such word. Where did that come from?" --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:47:38 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: slown Where it probably comes from is an analogy with known-mown-blown-shone. (Hmm, let's see, is it cline-clone-clone or clow-clew-clown??) TGIF. Peter On Fri, 11 Oct 1996, Natalie Maynor wrote: If you weren't going so fast, you could have slown down. Sound familiar to y'all or is it just my hillbilly English? I've had precisely the same experience you just described: it has come out of my mouth, feeling quite natural, and then I've stopped and thought, "Slown? There's no such word. Where did that come from?" --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 17:48:14 -0500 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: %Irish speech Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 10:14:22 -0700 (PDT) From: MOBAC Library Cooperative mobachq[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]scilibx.ucsc.edu To: stumpers list stumpers-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]crf.cuis.edu Subj: Irish slang Can anyone recommend any titles that would contain Irish phrases, expressions, slang, colloquiallisms, etc. in English. Patron is writing a book and wants to have characters talk authentically "Irish" - I think he's actually looking for dialect. Rosy Brewer There are books and recordings for actors who need to put on various accents; the main Minneapolis library has a number of them, but you should be able to find them at a library closer to you. I'm forwarding this to the American Dialect Society list; it's not their territory, but someone there may be able to suggest suitable works. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 19:03:56 EDT From: Michael Montgomery N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM.SC.EDU Subject: Irish slang The book your patron needs if Patrick W Joyce's _English as We Speak It in Ireland_, originally published in 1910 and reprinted in 1979/1988/ 1995 by Wolfhound Press, Dublin. Michael Montgomery ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 16:24:14 -0700 From: Lex Olorenshaw lexo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LSI.SEL.SONY.COM Subject: a whole nother This "slown down" discussion reminds me of something I caught myself saying, which surprised the bejeebers [sp?] out of me: "That's a whole nother problem." In writing it looks totally proposterous, but it sounds quite natural to me. Since noticing it in my own speech, I now hear it quite frequently (in the San Francisco Bay Area). Is this common elsewhere? Does anyone know of similar constructions? =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Lex Olorenshaw E-mail: lexo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lsi.sel.sony.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 19:36:26 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: a whole nother Is this common elsewhere? I say it quite often. Does anyone know of similar constructions? Although not exactly the same, it's not unlike "a newt." --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Oct 1996 to 11 Oct 1996 ************************************************ There are 14 messages totalling 380 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. correction 2. a whole nother (5) 3. medical Mondegreens and a legal one (2) 4. slown down (2) 5. Bejeebers 6. No subject given 7. Stoled (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 23:07:12 -0500 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: correction That misheard bit from a newscast should have been "Baby dinosaurs and the crime rate." Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 04:28:08 EDT From: "David A. Johns" daj000[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FOX.WAY.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: a whole nother At 04:24 PM 10/11/96 -0700, you wrote: This "slown down" discussion reminds me of something I caught myself saying, which surprised the bejeebers [sp?] out of me: "That's a whole nother problem." In writing it looks totally proposterous, but it sounds quite natural to me. Since noticing it in my own speech, I now hear it quite frequently (in the San Francisco Bay Area). Is this common elsewhere? Does anyone know of similar constructions? Recently I saw a commercial enticing the gentle couch potato to visit Texas. It ends with "Texas -- a whole other country." Now *that* sounds preposterous. David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 07:18:56 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: medical Mondegreens and a legal one A collegue from the Duke medical school and I did an article on such medical terms a decade ago in the _North Carolina Medical Journal_--if anybody would like a copy, lete me know--I still have a couple of offprints around. By the way, there is a bilingual case of this sort of thing that has been ossified in the protocols of the North Carolina Courts. As many of us know, in the English tradition court is opened with the bailiff or somebody shouting "Oyez! Oyez! Oyez!" (meaning, I guess, roughly 'Listen up!'). The official printed directions for opening court in Raleigh, requires the bailiff to shout, "Oh yes! Oh yes! Oh yes!" My theory is that "Oyez!" sounded like "Oh yeah!"--and somewhere along the way some misguided purist decided this should be made "more formal." To my ears, the opening of court sounds like something out of the soundtrack of a porn film. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 07:19:01 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: slown down "If I hadn't dranken so much water, I wunta slown down"--overheard in Duke University locker room, spoken by a male undergraduate discussing a mistake he had made in pick-up basketball game ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 09:30:51 -0400 From: e carlson ecarlson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LON.HOOKUP.NET Subject: Re: a whole nother Lex, "That's a whole nother problem." was a common saying in our family in Pittsburgh, PA. It was always used to emphasize that there was a problem, but in a humorous way. I would not be surprised if a 50's comedian coined that phrase. Saying "bejeebers" would have gotten me in trouble, but I don't know why. Edie ecarlson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lon.hookup.net This "slown down" discussion reminds me of something I caught myself saying, which surprised the bejeebers [sp?] out of me: "That's a whole nother problem." In writing it looks totally proposterous, but it sounds quite natural to me. Since noticing it in my own speech, I now hear it quite frequently (in the San Francisco Bay Area). Is this common elsewhere? Does anyone know of similar constructions? =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Lex Olorenshaw E-mail: lexo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lsi.sel.sony.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 10:13:02 -0500 From: Scott Ann M ams8950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USL.EDU Subject: Re: a whole nother I saw a whole nother and hear it fairly frequently. I grew up in Tenn. and have lived in Louisiana for 20 years. I always notice how odd it is, but it comes out naturally anyway. Thanks for the extended mondegreen discussion. There seems to be a differenct of opinion on the originator of the term though. Hope someone can clear it up. Ann Scott ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 10:17:12 -0500 From: Scott Ann M ams8950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USL.EDU Subject: Re: a whole nother When I heard the "a whole other country" Texas ad, I assumed the writers first said "a whole nother" and then realized nother isn't a word and changed it. I do believe this phrase is in general use in the south at least. Which raises questions about whether or not nother IS a word, huh? Ann ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 12:48:35 -0400 From: Robert Kelly kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BARD.EDU Subject: Re: medical Mondegreens and a legal one No, I don't think Oh Yes is a hypercorrection of Oh Yeah --- oyez, as good Anglo-Norman, was pronounced anciently and still so in England as oy-yeZ or o-yeZ, that is, the z was always pronounced. It never lost the terminal consonant as standard modern French has. (It must please the British to mispronounce schoolboy French, and do it in a loud voice!) So the pronunciation adduced is instead likely to be a replacement of the unfamiliar and unique syllable -yez by the common word 'yes' RK ================================================== Robert Kelly Division of Literature and Languages, Bard College Annandale-on-Hudson NY 12504 Voice Mail: 914-758-7600 Box 7205 kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bard.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 13:53:10 EDT From: "David A. Johns" daj000[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FOX.WAY.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Bejeebers At 09:30 AM 10/12/96 -0400, you wrote: "That's a whole nother problem." was a common saying in our family in Pittsburgh, PA. It was always used to emphasize that there was a problem, but in a humorous way. I would not be surprised if a 50's comedian coined that phrase. Saying "bejeebers" would have gotten me in trouble, but I don't know why. Edie ecarlson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lon.hookup.net I suspect it's a euphemism for "bejeesus," which I heard a lot growing up in western Massachusetts: "to beat the bejeesus out of someone," "he was going faster than billy bejeesus" ("Billy B. Jesus," like "Jesus H. Christ"?), etc. I wouldn't have dared say it in front of my parents either. I've also heard "bejabbers," but it sounds Irish to me. David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 17:10:21 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: No subject given Michael, On participial 'slown': If it's not in any 'principal' works on usage, the books should be burned. How else could it be said? (But since this is me, you can probably advance the hillbilly hypothesis one (bare)foot farther. dInIs (who seems to be flaunting this ethnicity a lot lately; cain't nobody say nothing about us Hungarians?) _Stoled_ sounds pretty natural to me, whether because I'm a convicted l- vocalizer or for some other reason, but there's another verb principal part I heard myself using recently that caught me up short. It's not in any of the three reference works on usage I have consulted so far. Here it is: If you weren't going so fast, you could have slown down. Sound familiar to y'all or is it just my hillbilly English? Michael Montgomery Dept of English Univ of South Carolina Columbia SC 29208 Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 17:27:01 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: Stoled Well, shucks, Jason, see us Mid-southerners and Midwesterners, we jist don't understand East Coast logic. See, we got us a whole passel of them redundants that I guess y'all don't have. Why, we even say 'felt' for the preterite of 'feel' (which has already got a vowel-stem change so shouldn't need no dental preterite marker). Reckon we're so slow out here though that we'll hang on to them redundancies (particularly since it seems to be a predictable and necessary feature of natural language). By the way, us Hungarians (farther East than y'all) find phrases like 'two houses' or 'three chickens' pretty silly too. Redundant as all hell. Why put a plural marker on a noun with a number sittin' out thar in front of it? Oh, by the way, I'm right about 'vocalization.' It means 'gets to look like a vowel' (or 'stops being a consonant'). I guess this was misunderstood as 'is pronounced.' If you want fancier words for the 'disappearances' of nonprevocalic /r/ and /l/ in Southern States English, you caould go for /r/ 'desulcalization' and /l/ 'delateralization,' but them's mighty biguns. dInIs I don't understand (but I don't necessarily object to) the use of "stoled." The -ed seems redundant. One already has the past in "stole." Why add the same sense again with "-ed?" This is about as comprehensible to my East Coast sensiblities as "roded"would be for the past tense of "ride." . (An aside: I'm from near Baltimore, MD. Having a large number of American dialects is a beautiful thing. That doesn't make the Baltimore accent any less ugly.) I suppose it makes sense if one drops the L. BTW, "l-vocalizer." seems to be used in two different senses. Which is correct? Regards, Jason jasonk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.sjcsf.edu I first encountered a problem with this word earlier in the year when I tried to spell it and realized, looking at it, that it was not a word. I continue to use it, however. I like it. Grant Barrett Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 17:39:20 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: slown down Is this the time to remind people to re-read Harol Allen's 'On accepting participial drank'? Wasn't it a golden oldie in American Speech? Dennis "If I hadn't dranken so much water, I wunta slown down"--overheard in Duke University locker room, spoken by a male undergraduate discussing a mistake he had made in pick-up basketball game Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 17:41:53 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: a whole nother Lex, "That's a whole nother problem." was a common saying in our family in Pittsburgh, PA. It was always used to emphasize that there was a problem, but in a humorous way. I would not be surprised if a 50's comedian coined that phrase. Saying "bejeebers" would have gotten me in trouble, but I don't know why. Edie ecarlson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lon.hookup.net This "slown down" discussion reminds me of something I caught myself saying, which surprised the bejeebers [sp?] out of me: "That's a whole nother problem." In writing it looks totally proposterous, but it sounds quite natural to me. Since noticing it in my own speech, I now hear it quite frequently (in the San Francisco Bay Area). Is this common elsewhere? Does anyone know of similar constructions? =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Lex Olorenshaw E-mail: lexo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lsi.sel.sony.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Oct 1996 18:33:54 -0600 From: Jason Krantz jasonk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHADOW.SJCSF.EDU Subject: Re: Stoled At 05:27 PM 10/12/96 -0400, you wrote: Well, shucks, Jason, see us Mid-southerners and Midwesterners, we jist don't understand East Coast logic. See, we got us a whole passel of them redundants that I guess y'all don't have. Why, we even say 'felt' for the preterite of 'feel' (which has already got a vowel-stem change so shouldn't need no dental preterite marker). Reckon we're so slow out here though that we'll hang on to them redundancies (particularly since it seems to be a predictable and necessary feature of natural language). By the way, us Hungarians (farther East than y'all) find phrases like 'two houses' or 'three chickens' pretty silly too. Redundant as all hell. Why put a plural marker on a noun with a number sittin' out thar in front of it? I didn't say that redundants were _wrong,_ just that they sounded odd to me. As I'm sure you know, most Britons would judge a person who spoke with a Cockney accent to be less educated than one who spoke with a BBC accent. As I explained before, I wasn't passing a judgement of this sort at all. I also wanted to explain my perspective, which is that of one who grew up speaking with a generic "news anchor" accent. I would never postulate that language always adheres to the simplest rules. If you want to talk about other languages, Attic Greek uses what might be called "cumulative negatives," (i.e. more negatives increases the emphasis placed on something _not_ being something else) which would be called double negatives or worse in English. But to be honest, I don't see what other languages have to do with what's considered correct in American (or generic Ameican) English. If every language followed English rules, they would all be the same language with different vocabularies, no? BTW, I was born in Kentucky and lived for several years in southern Illinois. I may not speak that way, but I do have some idea of what I'm talking about. Respectfully hoping not to sound like I think anyone's stupid just because I don't talk the same way they do, Jason jasonk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.sjcsf.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Oct 1996 to 12 Oct 1996 ************************************************ There are 10 messages totalling 651 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. POLITICAL CLIMATE; LOO; AUTOMOBILE; HIGH BALL 2. No subject given 3. Stoled 4. G. O. P. 5. John Esling (2) 6. oyez--oh yes! 7. Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 01:50:52 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: POLITICAL CLIMATE; LOO; AUTOMOBILE; HIGH BALL Some stuff on some topics of interest: POLITICAL WEATHER (or CLIMATE) Politicians check out the "political weather" or "climate" for political races, bills, and such, yet Safire's New Political Dictionary doesn't even have this. This is from Punch, 18 September 1897, pg. 124, col. 1, and is accompanied with a drawing of William Harcourt in Roman robes opening an umbrella: SIR WILLIAM HARCOURT ON "POLITICAL WEATHER." (With apologies to the Young Person of the "Daily Graphic.") ["The political weather is very much like the natural weather.....I believe that in public affairs you will see a great change before long."--Recent Speech at Malwood.] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------ LOO For whatever it's worth, enter the following item in the "loo" etymological sweepstakes. It's from Punch, 7 November 1896, pg. 219, col. 2: "The Chateau of Loo," where the two queens were recently staying, sounds uncommonly like a house of cards. Unless "Loo" is short for "LOUISA," and if so, who is LOUISA at whose chateau the two queens were staying? By the way, asks the quiet gamble singing-- "Loo! Loo! I love you!" is there anywhere about a "Chateau of Unlimited Loo"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------- AUTOMOBILE In my discussion of a few days ago on the "automobile" torpedoes of 1883, I didn't have the original article, which appears in the Hartford (CT) Courant, 26 January 1883, pg. 2, col. 2: AUTOMOBILE When the congress of the United States demands that a chance be given to "auto mobile" torpedoes, the people of the United States should be given a chance to ask where the word can be found. It is not in Webster's dictionary. It is not of Geeek (sic) origin or of Latin origin, but is an improper combination of Greek and Latin roots, not allowable in etymology. The Greek half "auto" carries the meaning of self and the Latin half "mobile" carries the significance of motion. Laying aside Greek and Latin, abandoning the art of word making and the polysyllabic grandeur of imported and defunct speech, let the congress talk about self-moving torpedoes, and show their constituents that though we haven't any navy we still have a language of our own. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------ HIGH BALL I was recently asked what I had on "high ball." It's a drink in a tall glass--a "high" (or tall) "ball" (or drink). A fascinating article is "WILD ENGLISH. Professional and Otherwise." in the New York Clipper, 5 June 1875, pg. 76, col. 3: "A BALL."--A name of much power and comfort. "Let's have a ball!" invariably brings the immediate answer: "Don't care if I do!" The answer will be easily explained when we state that "a ball" in such a case is synonymous with "whiskey." Other items in this very important article are: The Main Guy, The Ghost, Cully, Nixey Weeden, Stag His Nibbs, An Awful Death, Nixey Jim!, Walk Off!, So Long!, Solid, Brack Up!, Peck, Nobby, Racket, Rounders and Senators, Crank, Jonah, A Terror!, Daisy, Oh Chuck Me In the Gutter!, Keep Your Shirt On!, and A-La-Ga-Zam! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 07:49:58 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: No subject given I need some help. I looked up John Esling (at University of Victoria) and found pdb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uvm.uvic.ca ; trouble is, ain't no anybody[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uvm.uvic.ca cause it ain't no uvm.uvic.ca, and I've tried a number of permutations. Can anybody help? Thanks, Dennis Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 07:56:53 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: Stoled Time makes it mpossible to reply to lengthy comments from members of the list who haven't had Ling 101, but I will continue to be surly with the linguistically prejudiced, whether it stems from ill-will or ignorance. Dennis At 05:27 PM 10/12/96 -0400, you wrote: Well, shucks, Jason, see us Mid-southerners and Midwesterners, we jist don't understand East Coast logic. See, we got us a whole passel of them redundants that I guess y'all don't have. Why, we even say 'felt' for the preterite of 'feel' (which has already got a vowel-stem change so shouldn't need no dental preterite marker). Reckon we're so slow out here though that we'll hang on to them redundancies (particularly since it seems to be a predictable and necessary feature of natural language). By the way, us Hungarians (farther East than y'all) find phrases like 'two houses' or 'three chickens' pretty silly too. Redundant as all hell. Why put a plural marker on a noun with a number sittin' out thar in front of it? I didn't say that redundants were _wrong,_ just that they sounded odd to me. As I'm sure you know, most Britons would judge a person who spoke with a Cockney accent to be less educated than one who spoke with a BBC accent. As I explained before, I wasn't passing a judgement of this sort at all. I also wanted to explain my perspective, which is that of one who grew up speaking with a generic "news anchor" accent. I would never postulate that language always adheres to the simplest rules. If you want to talk about other languages, Attic Greek uses what might be called "cumulative negatives," (i.e. more negatives increases the emphasis placed on something _not_ being something else) which would be called double negatives or worse in English. But to be honest, I don't see what other languages have to do with what's considered correct in American (or generic Ameican) English. If every language followed English rules, they would all be the same language with different vocabularies, no? BTW, I was born in Kentucky and lived for several years in southern Illinois. I may not speak that way, but I do have some idea of what I'm talking about. Respectfully hoping not to sound like I think anyone's stupid just because I don't talk the same way they do, Jason jasonk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.sjcsf.edu Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 14:05:17 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: G. O. P. "G. O. P. spells 'Gop'." "Don't step in the gop!" ---wall graffiti at Harvard University, Harvard Lampoon, pg. 31, The Someday-Son-This-Will-All-Be-Yours Issue (1969?). "G. O. P." is a term that deserves at least some of the glory and the study that was received by "O. K." To my knowledge, this is the only study by anyone. Existing references, as usual for these things and as will be shown, are putrid. The first place to look is a 1996 book by John Calvin Batchelor called "AIN'T YOU GLAD YOU JOINED THE REPUBLICANS?"--A SHORT HISTORY OF THE GOP (Henry Holt and Co.). It's gotta have it--it's in the title! On pg. 101, under the 1888 campaign, he writes "For the first time _Grand Old Party_--used ten years before about the Southern Democracy--entered the lexicon of electioneering as a pet name of the Republican party." On pg. 108, the author states the term was popularized in 1894. H. L. Mencken, in AMERICAN LANGUAGE, SUPPLEMENT I, mentions only briefly on pg. 410 that the DAE has it to 1887. In Stuart Berg Flexner's I HEAR AMERICA TALKING and LISTENING TO AMERICA, G. O. P. is barely mentioned! William Safire's NEW POLITICAL DICTIONARY has this: In the 1870s, "grand old party" and "gallant old party" were in use, mostly referring to Republicans. Meanwhile, in England, Prime Minister William Gladstone was being dubbed "the Grand Old Man," first used in 1882. Soon after, Gladstone was "the G. O. M." Soon after that, GOP made its bow. "'The G. O. P. Doomed,' shouted the _Boston Post_," wrote the _New York Tribune_ on October 13, 1884; nobody has yet found the earlier _Boston Post_ use. In early motorcar days, the letters also stood for "get out and push".... The DA, on pg. 730, states that "Grand Old Party" was the DEMOCRATIC party in an 1879 cite and an 1888 cite, and the Republican party in 1888 and 1948 cites. For "G. O. P.," its cites are 1887, 1890, 1947, and 1949. Robert Hendrickson's ENCYCLOPEDIA OF WORD AND PHRASE ORIGINS states that G. O. P. was "First used in 1887, when it also meant 'get out and push' (your own horse or car), it was probably suggested by G. O. M., which the English called their Grand Old Man, Prime Minister Gladstone." Actually, "get out and push" was much later and has nothing to do with the origin of the phrase. G. O. P. was popularized in the James G. Blaine vs. Grover Cleveland Presidential campaign of 1884. There are scads of G. O. P.s to be found also in 1885 and 1886. An 1887 cite in any book is just awful! THE BLAINE AND LOGAN COLLECTION OF CAMPAIGN SONGS, found in the Library of Congress, was copyrighted July 4, 1884. I had looked at just about every 1880 campaign songbook--Democrat and Republican--and had failed to find the phrase. This songbook had the songs "My Grandfather's Party" and "Our Party," which contains the phrase "The grand old Republican party." Also, this song: The Grand Old Party. (Tune: Glory Hallelujah.) The grand old party is as true as ever in the past; It came to stay through thick and thin, and from the first to last; 'Twill sail the good old Ship of State through every treach'rous blast-- And we'll go marching on! ... A songs "Stand by the Grand Old Party" was also published in 1884. This is the key year. In the book AMERICAN POLITICAL TERMS by Hans Sperber and Travis Trittshuh (1962), there are three 1884 cites. One is October (NY Tribune, as above) and one is November; one from Harper's Weekly (which is also in OED) supposedly comes from a Cincinnati newspaper of 1876, but the cite given must be the wrong page. The 1879 cite (referring to Democrats) is also mentioned. An 1878 and an 1880 cite are interesting to show that the phrase was in circulation even before G. O. M., which I discussed a few days ago. I have much stuff, and I'll list it chronologically. December 1, 1883--The Hatchet (D.C.), pg. 4, col. 3. "ST. EDMUNDS on _How to Square your Conscience on a Readjuster's Platform._ A work of most rare cunning and of the utmost importance to the G. O. P." This is the earliest "G. O. P." I found, smashing the 1887 date and even the 1884 dates. I looked for "dude" in many early 1883 newspapers, and didn't recall seeing an earlier "G. O. P." there. December 26, 1883--Puck, pg. 268. A cartoon of Benjamin Butler tells followers in a Jesus-like fashion to "Cast off the Old Parties and Follow Me!" March 8, 1884--Harper's Weekly, pg. 149. There is a cartoon of "The Sacred Elephant" and it has "Republican Party" on it, but not "G. O. P." March 15, 1884--Harper's Weekly, pg. 179. "THE OLD TICKET" in the cartoon is the Democratic one. An old man or "OLD PARTY" is being interviewed. April 25, 1884--New York Evening Post, pg. 4, col. 1. "Mr. Gilbert was next demanded. He made the ball ring with a brief address, in which he expressed confidence in the rejuvenation of the 'grand old party.'" This took place at a Republican convention in Albany, NY. May 22, 1884--Life (weekly humor and news magazine), pp. 288-289. The cartoon about fraud features an elephant and is titled "DISCOURAGING TO THE 'GRAND OLD PARTY.'" May 24, 1884--The Hatchet, pg. 5, col. 2. Prime Minister Gladstone is "The Grand Old Pharisee" or "A Grand Old Hypocrite." May 29, 1884--The World (NY), pg. 4, cols. 2-3. "With LINCOLN, whose nomination was accidental, the Grand Old Party associated ANDY JOHNSON, whom it afterwards impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors." "JOE HAWLEY is right. The Grand Old Party, with its army of Federal office-holders, its swarms of Government contractors, its aid from the treasuries of monopolies, corporations and favored millionaires, its sale of patronage, its machines, its frauds and its forgeries, its audacity, hypocrisy and genius for lying and corruption, can elect a wooden Indian or a jail-bird, provided the Democrats will help them by stupendous blundering, as they have done already." May 30, 1884--The World, pg. 4, col. 2. "What a remarkable convocation it will be! Judging from the preliminaries of the contest, what a loving and amiable family group the Grand Old Party will make!" May 31, 1884--The World, pg. 4, col. 2. "Money is the god of the 'leaders' of the Grand Old Party." June 5, 1884--The Sun (NY), pg. 2, col. 3. "The Same Old Party." It states that "the same old party" is on trial again this year. June 11, 1884--The World, pg. 4, col. 3. "A vote for BLAINE is a vote to strike the Republican colors and to destroy the Old Party." June 19, 1884--Life, cover, "G. O. P." spelling out "Grand Old Party" is worn by an elephant for the first time in any cartoon I could find. On pp. 344-345 (the centerfold) of this issue, this is drawn again! On pg. 338 cols. 2&3, Grand Old Party is twice mentioned. June 26, 1884--Life, pg. 353, col. 1. "No, Amarantha, 'P. P. C.' does not mean "Private, Personal, and Confidential.' It is rather a symbol explanatory of the action of the Republican party on the 4th of next March." July 3, 1884--Life, pg. 3, col. 2. "MR. FLOWER has just sent out sample copies of his campaign song. One verse reads: "The G. O. P. has got to go, 'T is money makes the mar' go; And I'm the boy what's got the bar'l To run things at Chicago." Also, in the cartoon on pg. 5, a person has "The G. O. P." on the back of his cape. Also, on pg. 12, col. 1: "YES, sirree," said the Independent, "I ain't no servile critter. I'm a going to bolt Blaine!" "Indeed," said the machine man, "Going to bolt, eh! How do you spell it, B-O-L-T?" ...When he recovered he went out and took the stump for the G. O. P. July 4, 1884--Washington Post, pg. 2, col. 4. "The Grand Old Party's Only Hope" is a header. July 10, 1884--Life, pg. 26, col. 2. Under "Charade" can be read the following poem: "I'm colder than ice; I'm madder than hops; My awfullest vice; Indulgence in S. O. Ps." July 16, 1884--Puck, cover page (305). The title is expanded for the first time as, under the "STRANGE, BUT TRUE" cartoon, there appears "The Three Last Speakers of the 'Untrustworthy and Disreputable Democratic Party,' and the Three Last Speakers of the 'Grand Old Republican Party of Moral Ideas.'" Pg. 306 has the following poem: "You may cheer for the Grand Old Party, As you did in the grand old days; But the cheer will be far from hearty, And weak the faltering praise. For rather than put Corruption In Lincoln's chair of state-- The honest citizen casts his vote For the Other Candidate." "In these days of late dishonor For the head that was held so high, With her glory and shame upon her, Let the Grand Old Party die. But the spirit that gave her grandeur, Survives with the strength of Fate In the breasts of the men who will vote this Fall For the Other Candidate." Most important is page 315, an essay title "THE GRAND OLD PARTY": "Nevertheless, he did not hesitate to wave his booty--now labeled 'The Grand Old Party' to prevent mistake--and to summon adventurers and hirelings of all sorts to rally around it. ... 'Surely this must be the right place, for there is the flag of the 'Grand Old Party' waving over it.'" July 20, 1884--Washington Post, pg. 1, col. 3. A Manhattan Club member used the expanded phrase: "Let me introduce to you a Republican notable and his environment, just to show what the grand old party of morality actually contains." July 21, 1884--Chicago Tribune, pg. 5, col. 5. A cartoon features "THE GRAND OLD BARREL $." July 28, 1884--The World, pg. 4, col. 7. "Some Suggestions on the G. O. P." August 20, 1884--Puck, pg. 400. A cartoon is titled "THE GRAND OLD PARTY OF MORAL IDEAS 'KEEPING UP APPEARANCES.'" The appearances in the woman's dress are "political purity" and "high moral ideas." The "moral ideas," of course, were that Grover Cleveland (of the other party) had had an illegitimate child. ("Ma, ma, where's my pa? Gone to the White House, ha-ha-ha!") October 2, 1884--Life, pp. 190-191. A cartoon shows a "G. O. P." on the elephant that apparently dates from Egyptian antiquity! October 11, 1884--Evening Telegram (NY), pg. 1. A cartoon shows a Republican parade, and the elephant reads "Some of the G. O. P." October 15, 1884--Evening Post (NY), pg. 2, col. 5. This item, "Brother Gardner Gives Some Political Advice," was reprinted from the Detroit Free Press. "De grand old principles of grand old parties am hurled at your heads from ebery co'ner, but dey won't pay rent nor buy soup bones." October 17, 1884--Cincinnati Enquirer, pg. 4, col. 2. "The Poetry of It. The G. O. P. Is G-O-N-E, As N E 1 of cts. can C." This was reprinted in the Boston Daily Globe, 23 Oct. 1884, pg. 4, col. 2, under "R. I. P." October 30, 1884--Life, pp. 246-247. The cartoon features Ben Butler (their Ross Perot) barking a "Side Show to Blaine's Great MORAL Circus." A "G. O. P." is again on Blaine's elephant. A child is encouraged to watch the "Great Moral Exhibition Beyond." So, from the examples, G. O. P. was certainly in use before 1887, before October 1884, and even before the Republican and Democratic conventions of that summer. September 8, 1886--St. Louis Post-Dispatch, pg. 4, col. 5. "Which Is the Party?" headlines this item from the Baltimore Sun, which reads "The 'party of moral ideas' at present is undoubtedly the Prohibition party, the inspiration of the old organization having become exhausted." October 15, 1886--St. Louis Post-Dispatch, pg. 4, col. 3. This is important: "And yet some years ago Hans Breitmann described the Republican party as, 'De party von de great moral idee.'" December 29, 1886--Puck, pp. 300-301. The cartoon is "THE GREAT FAIR IN AID OF THE 'GRAND OLD PARTY OF MORAL IDEAS'--THE PATRONAGE IS NOT UP TO THE EXPECTATIONS OF THE MANAGERS." May 17, 1888--Life, pg. 275, col. 2. "MOTTO of the G. O. P.: 'In galls we trust.'" June 27, 1888--Puck, pg. 293, cover. "THE GRAND OLD ELEPHANT" of the cartoon is urged to "Get up and dance for Monopoly and High Tariff!" October 10, 1888--Puck, pg. 98, col. 2. "It is difficult to associate such methods and motives with a Grand Old Party, and we are forced to the conclusion that this appellation is a misnomer. It was a Grand Young Party...." I hope all of the above will enlighten everyone on an important phrase in American speech that is used in almost every newspaper almost every day. I send this out into Internet air; it lands, I know not where. August 2, 1888--St. Louis Post-Dispatch, pg. 3, cols. 2-3. The cartoon from the New York News shows "AN UP-TO-DATE ELEPHANT"--one made only of money! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 14:16:43 -0400 From: TERRY IRONS t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: John Esling On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Dennis R. Preston wrote: I need some help. I looked up John Esling (at University of Victoria) and found pdb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uvm.uvic.ca ; trouble is, ain't no anybody[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uvm.uvic.ca cause it ain't no uvm.uvic.ca, and I've tried a number of permutations. Can anybody help? Thanks, Dennis Sorry to broadcast on entire list. I found him listed on www.uvic.ca with the following address esling[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uvic.ca If you check at www.uvic.ca you can get the phone number. Where you had [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uvm.uvic.ca, I suspect uvvm would have worked (for university of victoria vax machine). Good luck Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 14:52:03 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: John Esling That's what I thought; I tried uvic.ca also with no luck. Thanks, Dennis On Sun, 13 Oct 1996, Dennis R. Preston wrote: I need some help. I looked up John Esling (at University of Victoria) and found pdb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uvm.uvic.ca ; trouble is, ain't no anybody[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uvm.uvic.ca cause it ain't no uvm.uvic.ca, and I've tried a number of permutations. Can anybody help? Thanks, Dennis Sorry to broadcast on entire list. I found him listed on www.uvic.ca with the following address esling[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uvic.ca If you check at www.uvic.ca you can get the phone number. Where you had [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uvm.uvic.ca, I suspect uvvm would have worked (for university of victoria vax machine). Good luck Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 15:32:25 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: oyez--oh yes! Thanks to Robert Kelly for the correction concerning the pronunciation of Norman French and English Law French. I wonder if anyone knows if the "Oh yes!" relexification is a fluke in North Carolina, or if this is widespread. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Oct 1996 17:52:30 PST From: Simonie Hodges sjhodges[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCGATE.HAC.COM Subject: Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola I am a first year Computational Linguistics graduate student at Georgetown University, starting my first project/paper, which I have chosen to be about North American isoglosses for sweet carbonated beverages. In particular, I was considering following Labov's study on "sandwich" and drawing inferences between the two, possibly even taking cues from his methods of research. I have discovered that this is a classic dialectology issue, and was wondering if I could get suggestions from this list on applicable resources, methods of study/research and how I could involve the Web and/or general computing in this topic. I have seen in the archives, discussions on range/stove, icebox/ refrigerator, green beans/string beans, etc., so if someone on the list could point me to a particular archive on soda/pop, that would be most helpful. This is only about a 15 page paper, and is due at the end of the semester, so although I know I could spend much more time on it, I probably need to keep a narrow scope in mind. If necessary, perhaps I could expand upon it in future semesters. Thanks for any help in advance. Simonie Hodges simonie[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mitchell.hitc.com hodgessj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu The following is an attached File item from cc:Mail. It contains information that had to be encoded to ensure successful transmission through various mail systems. To decode the file use the UUDECODE program. --------------------------------- Cut Here --------------------------------- begin 644 rfc822.txt M4F5C96EV960Z(&)Y(&-C;6%I;"!F F]M(&5D96XN:&%C+F-O;0T*1G)O;2!O M=VYE BUA9',M;$!51T$N0T,N54=!+D5$50T*6"U%;G9E;&]P92U& F]M.B!O M=VYE BUA9',M;$!51T$N0T,N54=!+D5$50T*4F5C96EV960Z(&9R;VT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]=6=A M+F-C+G5G82YE9'4[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*#$R."XQ.3(N,2XU*2!B 2!%1$5.+DA!0RY#3TT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*%!- M1$8[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]5C0N,RTW(",U.#[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]T*0T*(&ED(#PP,4E!2UE15EDP-D\P,#9"25=`141% M3BY(04,N0T]-/CL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]4W5N+"`Q,R!/8W0[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE],3DY-B`P-#HU-#HP."!04U0-"E)E M8V5I=F5D.B!F F]M(%5'02Y#0RY51T$N1415(&)Y('5G82YC8RYU9V$N961U M("A)0DT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]5DT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]4TU44"!6,E(S*0T*('=I=&[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]0E--5%`[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]:60[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE],C0W,SL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]4W5N M+"`Q,R!/8W0[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE].38[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE],# Z-3(Z,S [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]1414#0I296-E:79E9#H[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]9G)O;2!51T$N M0T,N54=!+D5$52`H3DI%(&]R:6=I;B!,25-44T525D!51T$I#0H[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]8GD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]54=! M+D-#+E5'02Y%1%4[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*$Q-86EL(%8Q+C)A+S$N.&$I('=I=&[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]0E--5%`[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]:60[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] M-#DV,SL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]4W5N+`T*(#$S($]C="`Q.3DV(#`W.C4R.C,V("TP-#`P#0I$871E M.B!3=6XL(#$S($]C="`Q.3DV(#`W.C4V.C4S("TP-#`P#0I& F]M.B`B1&5N M;FES(%(N(%!R97-T;VXB(#QP F5S=&]N0%!)3$]4+DU352Y%1%4^#0I3=6)J M96-T.B!293H[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]4W1O;&5D#0I396YD97(Z($%M97)I8V%N($1I86QE8W0[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]4V]C M:65T 2`\0413+4Q`=6=A+F-C+G5G82YE9'4^#0I4;SH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]375L=&EP;&4[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] F5C M:7!I96YT R!O9B!L:7-T($%$4RU,(#Q!1%,M3$!U9V$N8V,N=6=A+F5D=3X- M"E)E &QY+71O.B!!;65R:6-A;B!$:6%L96-T(%-O8VEE='D[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/$%$4RU,0'5G M82YC8RYU9V$N961U/[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]T*365S V%G92UI9#H[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/#`Q24%+65%7-S0T,C`P-D)) M5T!%1$5.+DA!0RY#3TT^#0I#;VYT96YT+71R86YS9F5R+65N8V]D:6YG.B`W %0DE4#0H` end ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 10:59:48 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola As you have apparently discovered now, they do use funny words for cokes (pop, soda, etc.) in parts of the US that speak with an accent (i.e. anywhere but the south). There was Simonie Hodges wrote: I am a first year Computational Linguistics graduate student at Georgetown University, starting my first project/paper, which I have chosen to be about North American isoglosses for sweet carbonated beverages. In particular, I was considering following Labov's study on "sandwich" and drawing inferences between the two, possibly even taking cues from his methods of research. I have discovered that this is a classic dialectology issue, and was wondering if I could get suggestions from this list on applicable resources, methods of study/research and how I could involve the Web and/or general computing in this topic. I have seen in the archives, discussions on range/stove, icebox/ refrigerator, green beans/string beans, etc., so if someone on the list could point me to a particular archive on soda/pop, that would be most helpful. This is only about a 15 page paper, and is due at the end of the semester, so although I know I could spend much more time on it, I probably need to keep a narrow scope in mind. If necessary, perhaps I could expand upon it in future semesters. Thanks for any help in advance. Simonie Hodges simonie[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mitchell.hitc.com hodgessj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:03:06 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola Sorry, for the last (incomplete) message. Pushed the wrong button. I plan to send my reply directly to Simonie Hodges anyway, since this subject has been done to death on the list. Danny (two left thumbs) Long ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Oct 1996 to 13 Oct 1996 ************************************************ There are 10 messages totalling 309 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Irish /ai/au/ merger? 2. a whole nother (2) 3. disk version? 4. Mondegreens 5. "in difference to" 6. oyez, oyes 7. Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola 8. John Esling 9. Stoled ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 04:05:03 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU Subject: Irish /ai/au/ merger? I heard a lecture by a woman from Ulster this weekend and was struck by what seems to be a merger in her speech between /ai/ and /au/. It was striking because it led to so many misinterpretations in my own head: "grind" for "ground" and (the one that reminded me of this list) "a night building" for "an out building". The only possible diff in the way she pronounced /ai/ was that the onset may have been lower and backer (for /ai/). Is this a common feature of Irish Eng? Did I miss a subtle differentiation of the two sounds? I must have, because it seems that widespread miscommunication would result from such a merger. ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 09:25:35 -0400 From: "Winfield, Laurie" lwinfield[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HUNTON.COM Subject: Re: a whole nother Yes, in fact both my daughters, when they were tiny, thought "nother" was a separate word apart from the article that usually precedes it. "Where's my nother shoe?" "Go get your nother sock." Always used with things that come in pairs, though, never anything like "I want the nother dress." Anybody else run into this? ---------- From: American Dialect Society To: Multiple recipients of list ADS Subject: Re: a whole nother Date: Friday, October 11, 1996 8:40PM Is this common elsewhere? I say it quite often. Does anyone know of similar constructions? Although not exactly the same, it's not unlike "a newt." --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 10:10:31 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: disk version? I've decided not to bring a copy of the Ocracoke/PADS book to Las Vegas--do you think we'll need one there? I'd like it if I could have a disk version--we'll need one eventually anyway, at least of the finl version. If you think we could need to consult the book at NWAVE, bring along a disk version in a couple of different IBM formats and I'm sure I can open at least one of them on my Mac. We are leaving in a few hours; stayilng aty the conference hotel. Our old friend KathyWorld is going with us. Tomorrow night we are havingdnnerwith one ofmy former undergraduates who is now on thefaculty at UN:LV--a Chaucer specialist. Itught hilm his first Chaucer at Duke! We have tickets for a couple of LV shows--in fact, we have an extr ticket ifyou know of anybody who wants to go. See yuz dere! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 10:05:54 +0600 From: Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INTERPORT.NET Subject: Re: Mondegreens At 02:49 PM 10/11/96 EDT, Larry Horn wrote: The last time we discussed mondegreens, according to my files, was in October '95. During this discussion, someone mentioned that Steven Pinker (_Language Instinct_) attributes this coinage to the columnist Jon Carroll, based on his own mishearing of the ballad "The Bonnie Earl O'Moray" ('They have slain the Earl O'Moray/And laid him on the green'). This may be helpful -- from Jon Carroll's home page at http://www.sfgate.com/columnists/carroll/ (column dated 2/16/95) THIS IS AN odd-numbered year, so it is once again time for a complete explication of the origin of the word ``mondegreen.'' Some of you are new to the area or to this column; some of you have shockingly bad memories; some of you just like hearing the story told over and over again. And I love typing it. Don't get me wrong. As a child, the writer Sylvia Wright heard a plaintive Scottish ballad titled ``The Bonny Earl of Murray.'' One stanza, she believed, went like this: Ye Highlands and Ye Lowlands/ Oh Where hae you been?/ They hae slay the Earl of Murray/ And Lady Mondegreen. How romantic, she thought, Lady Mondegreen perishing with her lord in the fierce, romantic wars of medieval Scotland. It was only much later that she realized that they had actually slain the Earl of Murray and ``laid him on the green.'' She began to collect similar mishearings of song lyrics, poems, patriotic utterances and the like, and in 1954 published a small article about them, coining the word ``mondegreen.'' Then she died and 30 years passed and, voila, a columnist in San Francisco discovered the term and founded a small cottage industry -- the collection and dissemination of mondegreens. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 10:04:23 -0500 From: Gregory Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: "in difference to" Yesterday on the ALCS broadcast on NBC Bob Uecker several times used the phrase "in difference to" in the same position in which "as opposed to" might have been used. For example, he said something like "I think Torre's gonna bunt here, in difference to Johnson's hit-and-run move in the 3rd." Uecker did this at least three times in yesterday's game, and has said the phrase at other times during other games--I thought I had heard him say "in deference to" on the previous occassions. Is this a standard usage I just haven't heard, or a regional usage, or is it idiosyncratic--a confusion of _difference/deference_ in the "in ____ to" context? Greg Pulliam Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.iit.edu Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 12:24:51 -0400 From: "Dale F.Coye" CoyeCFAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: a whole nother I think whole nother is widespread across the United States. Anyone disagree? Dale Coye Princeton,NJ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 12:24:54 -0400 From: "Dale F.Coye" CoyeCFAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: oyez, oyes Oyes, oyez was one of the words on a list I recently used for a pronunciation survey of words from Shakespeare. Here's the results from a fairly random sample of Shakespeare professors (It was given to them with both spellings, asking them how they would pronounce it in a prose passage): UK oh YAY-3 oh YEZ-8 oh YES-1 OH yez-1 US oh YAY-2 oh YEZ-2 oh YES-0 OH yez-7 OH yay-3 Reinterpretation of this old Anglo-Norman word as mod. French is evident in both countries, but only one used the /s/. In Shakespeare it is stressed on the first syllable. Dale Coye The Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching Princeton, NJ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 13:59:22 -0400 From: "J. Chambers" chambers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHASS.UTORONTO.CA Subject: Re: Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola I should have added my results on POP/SODA/SOFT DRINK a few months ago, when it was being bruited about generally. So here's a 2nd chance. The Dialect Topography of the Golden Horseshoe is a survey of 1,015 people around the western tip of Lake Ontario, from Oshawa to Buffalo, including Scarborough, Toronto, Mississauga, Oakville, Burlington, Hamilton, St. Catharines, Welland and Niagara Falls. Over 5m people, more than one-sixth of Canada's pop, live in this 250km strip and more than a million more live on the U.S. side of Niagara. The survey includes 935 Canadians and 80 Americans. They were asked, "What do you call a carbonated soft drink?" The wording of the question was intended to discourage their use of "soft drink" as an answer, since it seems like the kind of bloodless generic we might use to avoid the more homely words we really use. In fact, 2% answered "soft drink"--all were Cdn rather than Amn. Otherwise, the responses came out like this: Cdns NYers pop 85.7% 54.4% soda 6.4 40.5 coke 2.0 1.3 sftdrk 2.0 -- Other brand names besides coke came up: 1 Cdn & 1 NY said "pepsi", 8 Cdns said "cola" (0.7%), 4 said "ginger ale", and 1 each said diet coke, 7-Up, soda water, club soda. 1 said he called a soft drink the "brand name on label". There were a couple of miscellaneous answers: ade, ale, box drink, fizzy, effervescent drink. (Oh sure, "May I please have 3 effervescent drinks?") And one person said "milk". This is the only response in the survey that shows the NYers divided in their usage when the Cdns are not. The NY responses may be regional: Americans right at the Niagara border tend to say "pop" (86%) and those further away (Syracuse, Oswego, etc.) tend to say "soda" (67%). Typically, in other questions,the Cdns offer more variants than NYers, and often offer several where NYers have only one. Jack Chambers ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 14:02:25 -0400 From: "J. Chambers" chambers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHASS.UTORONTO.CA Subject: Re: John Esling The address I have for John Esling is vqplot[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uvvm.uvic.ca ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Oct 1996 11:10:30 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: Stoled O.k., Dennis, but historically speaking "felt" is not redundant, while "stoled" is. I.e. "feel-felt" is historically a weak verb which had the dental as its tense marker from the beginning, whereas "steal-stole" is historically a strong verb which originally had the vowel alternation as its tense marker (and no dental suffix), with the dental of "stoled" added redundantly (and so far by a minority of speakers) later. I'm too lazy to track down the origin of the vowel alternation in "feel-felt" just now, but I see the verb was a regular weak verb in Old English, as the German cognate "fuehlen-fuehlte-gefuehlt" is still today, and I assume the alternation arose in Middle English, creating an apparent hybrid like the products of so-called "Rueckumlaut" in German (e.g., "kennen-kannte- gekannt"). In spite of the advanced decay of the strong verb class in English, I think there are still enough such verbs in the language for its speakers to be aware that they don't normally have the dental suffix to mark the preterite and participle. So it's perfectly possible for the same native speakers to find double-marked forms like "stoled" redundant without being the least bit prescriptivist, Eastern elitist, or whatever it is you're being sarcastic about. Peter McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, OR On Sat, 12 Oct 1996, Dennis R. Preston wrote: Well, shucks, Jason, see us Mid-southerners and Midwesterners, we jist don't understand East Coast logic. See, we got us a whole passel of them redundants that I guess y'all don't have. Why, we even say 'felt' for the preterite of 'feel' (which has already got a vowel-stem change so shouldn't need no dental preterite marker). Reckon we're so slow out here though that we'll hang on to them redundancies (particularly since it seems to be a predictable and necessary feature of natural language). By the way, us Hungarians (farther East than y'all) find phrases like 'two houses' or 'three chickens' pretty silly too. Redundant as all hell. Why put a plural marker on a noun with a number sittin' out thar in front of it? Oh, by the way, I'm right about 'vocalization.' It means 'gets to look like a vowel' (or 'stops being a consonant'). I guess this was misunderstood as 'is pronounced.' If you want fancier words for the 'disappearances' of nonprevocalic /r/ and /l/ in Southern States English, you caould go for /r/ 'desulcalization' and /l/ 'delateralization,' but them's mighty biguns. dInIs I don't understand (but I don't necessarily object to) the use of "stoled." The -ed seems redundant. One already has the past in "stole." Why add the same sense again with "-ed?" This is about as comprehensible to my East Coast sensiblities as "roded"would be for the past tense of "ride." . (An aside: I'm from near Baltimore, MD. Having a large number of American dialects is a beautiful thing. That doesn't make the Baltimore accent any less ugly.) I suppose it makes sense if one drops the L. BTW, "l-vocalizer." seems to be used in two different senses. Which is correct? Regards, Jason jasonk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.sjcsf.edu I first encountered a problem with this word earlier in the year when I tried to spell it and realized, looking at it, that it was not a word. I continue to use it, however. I like it. Grant Barrett Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Oct 1996 to 14 Oct 1996 ************************************************ There are 15 messages totalling 400 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. a whole nother 2. Hail Mary, Full of Grapes (2) 3. nother and other stuff 4. Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola (4) 5. Queen City 6. "in difference to" -Reply 7. Wow 8. wow 9. inclusive vs. exclusive pronouns 10. "WOW" and Scots English-- not too early! 11. 'Nother "nother" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 13:06:22 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: a whole nother Dale F.Coye wrote: I think whole nother is widespread across the United States. Anyone disagree? Dale Coye Princeton,NJ And across the world as well! (I say it even here in Japan). My only question is: How else are ya s'pposed to say it!!? (of course, there is "a whole dam nuther". . .) Danny Long ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 07:17:14 -0400 From: "Christopher R. Coolidge" ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOOSE.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: Hail Mary, Full of Grapes On Fri, 11 Oct 1996, Barry A. Popik wrote: Jose, can you see? (Our National Anthem.) Oh, the rompers they washed were so gallantly streaming ditto While we're on the subject: 'Scuse me while I kiss this guy(Jimi Hendrix) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 07:28:48 -0400 From: Kendra Banks banks[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ANDREWS.EDU Subject: Re: nother and other stuff I first became aware of people saying 'a whole nother' about a year ago when someone in Nebraska asked me how to spell it. Since then, I've been paranoidly aware of it and have heard it very frequently in all sorts of places. I've even heard it in lectures from my English professors at the University I attend in Michigan. Sounds to me like something similar to, if slightly reversed from, what happened to the whole napron/apron thing. On another note...I'm a senior at Andrews University this year, and I'm doing an honors research project on teachers' and students' attitudes toward dialect usage in secondary schools. I'm comparing attitudes people in an American school to those of people in an Austrian (German-speaking) school. I'm wondering if anyone can put me in touch with information on whether American dialects are becoming more similar or more different. I think this has a lot to contribute to the issue, given the amazing diversity of German dialects and the relatvie similarity of most American dialects. Anyone have info on this? Any tips would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance for your help. I've also been enjoying lurking on this list. I find it fascinating. Kendra Banks ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:58:54 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Hail Mary, Full of Grapes And lest we forget... "There's a hurricane a-blowin' There's a bathroom on the right." (Creedence Clearwater Revival) ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Fri, 11 Oct 1996, Barry A. Popik wrote: Jose, can you see? (Our National Anthem.) Oh, the rompers they washed were so gallantly streaming ditto While we're on the subject: 'Scuse me while I kiss this guy(Jimi Hendrix) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:51:52 -0400 From: "Dale F.Coye" CoyeCFAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola Jack Chambers writes about his survey: They were asked, "What do you call a carbonated soft drink?" The wording of the question was intended to discourage their use of "soft drink" as an answer, since it seems like the kind of bloodless generic we might use to avoid the more homely words we really use. In fact, 2% answered "soft drink"--all were Cdn rather than Amn. Otherwise, the responses came out like this: I'm interested in your survey. How did you pick informants and administer the survey instrument? I also think you probably should not assume that "soft drink" covers up the more homely word they really use. Don't you think that's prejudicial to your results? I for one say soft drink, and a survey I conducted found it was the most favored choice around Ottawa and Montreal for 18 year olds. There is a boundary somewhere west of Buffalo, New York where "pop" ends in favor of soda. Dale Coye Princeton, NJ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:12:16 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola dale sayeth: There is a boundary somewhere west of Buffalo, New York where "pop" ends in favor of soda. this confuses me, since i lived places east and west of buffalo (newark, new york and central illinois) where "pop" was used. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 10:41:10 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: Queen City Lee Crocker, your tag lines says "Queen City of the Ozarks." Which city is it? You, me and Jerry seem to be the only obvious Missourians on the list. Grant Barrett My territory includes Wayne County, Audrain County, Lincoln County, St. Louis County and Boone County. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:10:34 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: "in difference to" -Reply I wonder if part of its history is a failure to understand, and metanalysis of, the phrase "one's indifference to X". Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Gregory Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU 1014.1004 Yesterday on the ALCS broadcast on NBC Bob Uecker several times used the phrase "in difference to" in the same position in which "as opposed to" might have been used. For example, he said something like "I think Torre's gonna bunt here, in difference to Johnson's hit-and-run move in the 3rd." Uecker did this at least three times in yesterday's game, and has said the phrase at other times during other games--I thought I had heard him say "in deference to" on the previous occassions. Is this a standard usage I just haven't heard, or a regional usage, or is it idiosyncratic--a confusion of _difference/deference_ in the "in ____ to" context? Greg Pulliam Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.iit.edu Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 11:36:32 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Wow I've been asked about a possible connection between the interjection "Wow!" and the Wolof affirmative answer (i.e., 'yes'). Merriam-Webster 3rd Int'l gives no etym. for "wow", simply labeling it "interj." as if that were sufficient. The (AmE-speaking) person who spoke to me is quite impressed with not only the phonology of Wolof wa:w (my transcription from this person's pronunciation), but also the intonation they have commonly observed on it, which sounds to them very much like American "wow!" Noting further that Senegal and Gambia were a major source of slaves, they speculated that some of these kidnappees could have introduced Wolof wa:w to North America, where it became "wow!". Any comments? Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 12:15:13 +0000 From: "E. W. Gilman" egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WEBSTER.M-W.COM Subject: wow The OED shows _wow_ first attested in 1513 in Scots English. A tad early for Wolof influence, I think. ---------------------------------------------------------- E. W. Gilman Director of Defining Merriam-Webster Inc. 47 Federal St. Springfield, MA 01102 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:50:51 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: inclusive vs. exclusive pronouns The following appeared in LINGUIST #7.1431 Please do NOT reply to me. I repost it here because of the final paragraph. -------------------------------------------- 1) Date: Fri, 11 Oct 1996 15:11:11 MDT From: kearsy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.utexas.edu (Kearsy Cormier) Subject: incl/excl pronouns: summary Many thanks to those of you who responded to my question about inclusive and exclusive pronouns. It turns out that there many, many languages that do have this distinction. They include most if not all of the following language families: Algonquian, Austronesian and Austroasiatic, among others. I can supply you with a more complete list if you are interested. Also, thanks to those of you who pointed out that American Sign Language also distinguishes between incl/excl pronouns. ASL is the language I am currently studying with regard to this topic. (I was curious how the distinction worked in spoken languages.) Several of you pointed out that some non-standard varieties of American English carry this incl/excl distinction - e.g. "weuns" and "usuns". I was not aware that these forms differed in meaning from the standard "we" and "us". Any comments? -Kearsy - ----------- Kearsy Cormier kearsy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.utexas.edu University of Texas at Austin PhD student, Department of Linguistics ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 15:56:25 -0400 From: "Dale F.Coye" CoyeCFAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola Lynne writes: dale sayeth: There is a boundary somewhere west of Buffalo, New York where "pop" ends in favor of soda. this confuses me, since i lived places east and west of buffalo (newark, new york and central illinois) where "pop" was used. I meant that there is a word boundary somewhere to the west of Buffalo, perhaps near Rochester, running north and south. West of this boundary, ie. in Buffalo, (and I take it from Lynne's comment, Newark,NY which though east of Buffalo, is still west of the boundary) and covering most of the midwest, people say pop. East of this boundary, ie. Syracuse and points east, they might say soda or soft drink, but never pop, which sounds rather quaint to them (i.e., me), like something from a 30s movie staring Mickey Rooney. I wish someone would study this issue in detail, pinpointing the boundary and also querying people on their reaction to the word not used. Dale Coye Princeton ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 16:54:23 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: "WOW" and Scots English-- not too early! Two things about "wow". 1) Anything is possible, but is does seem unlikely to me. In creole studies, esp. the Atlantic region, it's long been known that there is a potential etymon in SOME Africanlanguage for just about any one or two syllable word in any existing variety of a creole or Europena language. People spent years suggesting them and getting shot down (or, occasionally, not) until a standard suggested by Derek Bickerton (for grammatical transfers, primarily-- he was and is a great suspecter of any African influences in New World creoles, unlike myself) took informal hold: such suggestions need to have a plausible accompanying description of the route which might have been taken to establish them. Not just: "Gee! this looks like it might be Wolof!", but demographics, slave transportation records, accounts of the contact situation, etc. Not a bad criterion, really. 2) That leads to the next point. I don't have evidence for Wolof wa:w. But E. W. Gilman is wrong to take the date 1513 as self-evidently too early for contact, even in chilly Scotland. Ronald Sanders's marvelous book "Lost Tribes and Promised Lands" quotes as an early example of gross racial caricature a poem by Scottish poet William Dunbar which "celebrates a jousting contest held in 1506 or 1507 at the court of King James IV of Scotland, at which the ironic guest of honor is one of the undoubtedly very rare pieces of human cargo from the African slaving ships of the day to have made her way this far north". I won't quote the offensive bits, which don't contain anything interesting anyway, but it begins: Lang heff I maed of ladyes quhytt, Nou of ane blak I will indytt, That landet furth of the last schippis; Quhoy fain wald I descryve perfytt, ..." and then come the nasty bits. For more see Sanders, or W.M. Mackenzie's "The Poems of William Dunbar" (1970), "Of Ane Blakmoir". --peter patrick georgetown univ. PS. I'll sign off ("nomail") for a few days in Las Vegas, so please send any responses of direct interest to me personally. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 19:48:29 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: 'Nother "nother" While we're on "nother" and Lady Mondegreen, this comes from Judy, 5 September 1894, p. 118, col. 2: Nonsense Names. When Annie-Body kindly came With Peter-Oleum's brother, And asked me Amos-Quito's name I answered "Oscar-Nother!" Said Arthur-Moniter, at lunch, "There's Evelyn-Potater," And Percy-Verance gave a punch To Abraham-Bulator. Now, Ewart-Urn has come to rise And ask me, "Why, oh, why, sir! These names do you thus analyze?" "It's 'cos I'm Ann-Eliza." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- GOP, cont'd. Under October 15, 1886, I cited the St. Louis Post-Dispatch that Hans Breitmann had once described the Republican party as, "De barty von de great moral idee." Hans Breitmann was not his real name. It was Charles G. Leland. You probably have at least one of his books. He wrote a book on slang and cant with some French guy named Barrere that supposedly is helpful to some of them entomologists. :-) I couldn't find the quote, though. Can anyone? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 21:13:20 -0400 From: David Carlson Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola Informants from the Pacific Northwest Atlas have the following responses: pop --28 informats soda pop -- 7 informants sody pop -- 1 informant soda -- 4 informants soft drink -- 6 informants soft drinks -- 2 informants sody drink -- 1 informant soda water -- 1 informant coke (general -- 2 informants coca cola -- 1 informant by name -- 1 informant David R. Carlson Springfield College Springfield MA ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Oct 1996 to 15 Oct 1996 ************************************************ There are 20 messages totalling 484 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. that carbonated stuff 2. Canadian use of "klicks"? (3) 3. Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola (5) 4. Mondegreens 5. Japanese sociolinguistics 6. "klicks": further questions (3) 7. Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola -Reply 8. "klicks": further questions -Reply 9. Canadian use of "klicks"? -Reply 10. Hanged vs. hung (2) 11. lady ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:33:45 -0500 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: that carbonated stuff About ten years ago, I tried finding out what supermarket ads in various parts of the US called carbonated beverages. I looked through out-of-town newspapers in the main Minneapolis library. Is there a term for such things as radio announcers saying "twenty minutes in front of the hour" -- to avoid saying to/till? None of the supermarket ads used ANY of the terms. They advertised flavors or brands. Digression: one ad had a special on a brand of dog food and said "Veterinarians use it themselves." Didn't say whether they fed it to their dogs. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Oct 1996 23:40:45 -0500 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: Canadian use of "klicks"? I thought the use of "klick" for kilometer was confined to the US military and to science fiction stories. Now I'm told that it's commonly used in Canada by people between around 25 and 35 years old -- in both English and French. This is from an anglophone Canadian. Is this accurate for Canada as a whole, or for one section of Canada, or what? Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 00:28:04 -0700 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET Subject: Re: Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola At 11:12 AM 10/15/96, M. Lynne Murphy wrote: dale sayeth: There is a boundary somewhere west of Buffalo, New York where "pop" ends in favor of soda. this confuses me, since i lived places east and west of buffalo (newark, new york and central illinois) where "pop" was used. lynne I'm confused too. Growing up in NYC, I only ever heard/said "soda." Where in NY state is the boundary between "pop" and "soda"? Rima ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:19:05 -0400 From: Suzanne Cadwell scadwell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EMAIL.UNC.EDU Subject: Re: Mondegreens Although Jon Carroll popularized the term "mondegreen" in his 6+ columns compiling them (late eighties, early nineties, I think) in the San Francisco Chronicle, he did not coin it. Sylvia Wright coined the term in a November 1954 essay in Harper's, "The Death of Lady Mondegreen." This amusing bit of childhood recollection involves several mishearings of Wright's, the eponymous one being from the refrain of the ballad "The Earl of Murray." To Wright's childish ears "They killed the Earl of Murray/ And laid him on the green," became "They killed the Earl Amurray/ and Lady Mondegreen." Carroll credits Wright in one of his columns, but gives the wrong journal and only the decade of publication. I used the Reader's Guide to locate the original source. Suzanne Cadwell Ph.D. Candidate Department of English University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:30:39 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola dale says: I meant that there is a word boundary somewhere to the west of Buffalo, perhaps near Rochester, running north and south. West of this boundary, ie. in Buffalo, (and I take it from Lynne's comment, Newark,NY which though east of Buffalo, is still west of the boundary) and covering most of the midwest, but rochester is east of buffalo. that's why i was confused. so, the boundary is to the east of buffalo, right? lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 07:21:22 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola rima said-- I'm confused too. Growing up in NYC, I only ever heard/said "soda." Where in NY state is the boundary between "pop" and "soda"? since my cousins in watertown say "pop", i'm under the impression that the boundary is more easterly than dale says, but i think there's also a north-south thing going. i doubt the boundary is straight north-south, but instead might be made crooked by the upstate-downstate divide. (i know we've done upstate/downstate here before, but what i mean to say is that perhaps the (eastern) southern tier and hudson valley areas are more influenced by nyc, thereby messing up attempts to make an east-west classification of the words, since north and south are relevant to the state's linguistic geography.) however, many would claim nyc is a different planet from most of nys. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:16:34 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Japanese sociolinguistics I wanted to let everyone on ADS-L know that we (at the Japanese Language Research Center) are working on a bibliography of works in English on Japanese sociolinguistics. At this point, we only have a few hundred entries (and probably a few dozen errors), but we decided to make the data available as we were working on it. We have also begun a listing of linguistics meetings, and plan to have a page of links for websites relating to Japanese linguistics and linguistics in general in the near future. Y'all tell your friends and neighbors. Daniel Long (dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp) Osaka Shoin Women's College Japanese Language Research Center http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/jlrc/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 06:57:30 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: Canadian use of "klicks"? While I was living in India in the early eighties, I heard "klick" from a variety of Common Wealth passport holders, and Canadians. beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 09:17:39 -0400 From: "Dale F.Coye" CoyeCFAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola Yikes. Right, the boundary is east of Buffalo. Dyslexia kills. Dale Coye ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:14:17 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: "klicks": further questions Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM 1015.2340 I thought the use of "klick" for kilometer was confined to the US military and to science fiction stories. I've always associated it with NASA and sf, the latter presumably from the former -- and, I suppose, the former could be from the military. But I think I've also heard it as a measure of speed = kilometers/second. Confirm? Deny? While we're on the subject, let's start a religious war ;-)\ : is the stress in "kilometer" on the LOM, or on the KIL (with 2ndary on ME.... no, don't KIL ME!) Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 10:17:40 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola -Reply I b'lieve I recall (in Appalachian Kentucky, in ... summer 1966) that people called any carbonated sweetened beverage a "coke". But I may be confusing that experience with another place and time. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:04:24 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: "klicks": further questions While we're on the subject, let's start a religious war ;-)\ : is the stress in "kilometer" on the LOM, or on the KIL (with 2ndary on ME.... no, don't KIL ME!) prescriptively, it's on the kil, just as it's on the cent and the mil. the LOM pronunciation is on analogy w/ thermometer, barometer, pentameter. but the meaning of "meter" in those is a bit different. in my experience, the distinction is not regional (except that it's an american problem--not so much british, etc., probably because americans are confused as it is about km). i think i say both. i try to avoid it and say "kay". never heard of "klicks". lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 11:09:18 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: "klicks": further questions i said: americans are confused as it is about km). i meant: americans are confused as they are about km). i apologize. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:40:40 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: "klicks": further questions -Reply M. Lynne Murphy 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA 1016.1004 prescriptively, it's on the kil, just as it's on the cent and the mil. the LOM pronunciation is on analogy w/ thermometer, barometer, pentameter. but the meaning of "meter" in those is a bit different. A-HA! Thank you. I knew the KIL pron was more regular, but you have supplied the rationale I lacked. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:29:47 -0400 From: e carlson ecarlson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LON.HOOKUP.NET Subject: Re: Canadian use of "klicks"? "Klick" is commonly used here in south-west Ontario by people of all ages. I even hear it on local news reports. Edie ecarlson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lon.hookup.net At 11:40 PM 10/15/96 -0500, Dan Goodman wrote: I thought the use of "klick" for kilometer was confined to the US military and to science fiction stories. Now I'm told that it's commonly used in Canada by people between around 25 and 35 years old -- in both English and French. This is from an anglophone Canadian. Is this accurate for Canada as a whole, or for one section of Canada, or what? Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 13:52:43 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: Canadian use of "klicks"? -Reply e carlson ecarlson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LON.HOOKUP.NET 1016.1229 "Klick" is commonly used here in south-west Ontario by people of all ages. I even hear it on local news reports. Edie ecarlson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lon.hookup.net = "km" or "km/h"? Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 15:22:53 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola SUpporting what Lynne says below, when I left my native N.Y.C. to attend college in Rochester in the early 1960's, one of the sources of linguistic culture shock I experienced (besides the open-o vowel, rather than a, used for 'corridor', 'moral, 'forest' and the fact that 'salads' were opposed to liquids and gases rather than to sandwiches and soups) was the use of 'pop' for what I thought (and still think) of as soda. Rochester is southwest of Watertown, and both are far beyond the Gothamite sphere of influence. --Larry ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- rima said-- I'm confused too. Growing up in NYC, I only ever heard/said "soda." Where in NY state is the boundary between "pop" and "soda"? since my cousins in watertown say "pop", i'm under the impression that the boundary is more easterly than dale says, but i think there's also a north-south thing going. i doubt the boundary is straight north-south, but instead might be made crooked by the upstate-downstate divide. (i know we've done upstate/downstate here before, but what i mean to say is that perhaps the (eastern) southern tier and hudson valley areas are more influenced by nyc, thereby messing up attempts to make an east-west classification of the words, since north and south are relevant to the state's linguistic geography.) however, many would claim nyc is a different planet from most of nys. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 18:57:34 -0500 From: "Russell, Matthew R" MRRUSSELL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSBSJU.EDU Subject: Hanged vs. hung As part of my coursework for an upper-division course titled "The English Language," I am currently attempting to discover how the word _hang_ is currently being used in standard English. During my research, however, I've encountered one problem: What is the proper way to write the transitive and intransitive simple past tense forms of the verb _hang_? Is it _hanged_ or _hung_? I appreciate any help that anyone can give me with this. Sincerely, Matt Russell senior English major at St. John's University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 20:26:21 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: Hanged vs. hung I believe the old prescriptivist rule is this: All uses (transitive and intransitive) except one have hang - hung - hung. The exception is with reference to execution by a rope around the neck, which is (transitive they hanged him or intransitive he hanged by the neck) hang - hanged - hanged. You can tell right away it is a prescriptivist rule; it makes you memorize stuff that sounds funny (kinda like 'whom'). A dead giveaway. (You might want to check some usage books or even consult the advice standard dictionaries give. Ain't y'all got none of them up there in St. John's? I think I remember right though.) My rule is much simpler (if you want ot know what a 55+ white, northern Kentuckian says): hang - hung - hung for everything I do one exception; if a hanging went off without a hitch, I have a disinclination to say that the victim was 'well-hung.' Dennis As part of my coursework for an upper-division course titled "The English Language," I am currently attempting to discover how the word _hang_ is currently being used in standard English. During my research, however, I've encountered one problem: What is the proper way to write the transitive and intransitive simple past tense forms of the verb _hang_? Is it _hanged_ or _hung_? I appreciate any help that anyone can give me with this. Sincerely, Matt Russell senior English major at St. John's University Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 21:23:29 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: lady Overheard on taxicab company radio whilst riding in a cab in Las Vegas: "Please someone pick up three young ladies at X Shopping Center. Three young ladies, middle-aged, will be standing outside waving. . . . Three young black ladies." Obviously some pretty complex sociolinguistics going on here. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Oct 1996 to 16 Oct 1996 ************************************************ There are 11 messages totalling 358 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. soda, pop, & upstate NY (4) 2. Hanged vs. hung (2) 3. Defining upstate (2) 4. Canadian use of "klicks"? -Reply 5. Canadian use of "klicks"? -Reply -Reply 6. "Addressed to a New Yorker Who Scoffed at Yankees" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 00:07:39 -0400 From: ALICE FABER faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU Subject: soda, pop, & upstate NY Larry Horn observe with regard to _soda_ and _pop_ as terms for carbonated sweet drinks: | SUpporting what Lynne says below, when I left my native N.Y.C. to attend | college in Rochester in the early 1960's, one of the sources of linguistic | culture shock I experienced (besides the open-o vowel, rather than a, used | for 'corridor', 'moral, 'forest' and the fact that 'salads' were opposed to | liquids and gases rather than to sandwiches and soups) was the use of 'pop' for | what I thought (and still think) of as soda. Rochester is southwest of | Watertown, and both are far beyond the Gothamite sphere of influence. I grew up in the 50's and 60's in Westchester County, just north of New York City. The demographics were complex, approximately 1/3 natives, 1/3 people who had moved out to the suburbs, and 1/3 families who had moved in from elsewhere in the country so that the breadwinner could take a job at corporate HQ for such companies as Shell Oil, IBM, American Can, etc. An awful lot of the culture clash that this demographic mix engendered was reflected in what, in retrospect, I would call "linguistic playground wars". People who said coffee and chocolate with too much of a diphthong in the first syllable were fair game, and I remember serious shouting matches in elementary school about which was right, _soda_ or _pop_. Again in retrospect, I suspect that the natives and the exurbanites used _soda_, while the corporate immigrants brought _pop_ with them. I could easily imagine high school classmates of mine insisting that they grew up with (imported) _pop_, not even realizing that it was an imported term. And now an aside with regard to "upstate" New York. I swear, I wasn't going to bring this up again, but someone else already did, so here goes. After the last time we discussed this, I asked my parents. My father, a native New Yorker who was an Assistant National News Editor at the NY Times in the 1960's recalls that for many years, perhaps through the 50's (though I'm not sure of the exact date), the Times had a tripartite division of election coverage: National, City (the 5 boroughs), and Upstate (including all of NY State except for the 5 boroughs). I would expect that other news coverage followed the same schema. Subsequently, a Suburban division was added (that would have, I expect, included Long Island, Westchester, and Rockland Counties, as well as, perhaps, Fairfield County in Connecticut and the various counties of Northeast New Jersey). So, while there's a chicken and egg quality to the question, it's at least possible that the New York City perception that Upstate begins at the end of the subway lines in the Bronx is a consequence of the way the Times, and perhaps other, now defunct, newspapers divided the news. And this account would explain the disparities between the upstate and downstate definitions of upstate. Alice Faber ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 04:15:17 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: soda, pop, & upstate NY alice faber said: New Jersey). So, while there's a chicken and egg quality to the question, it's at least possible that the New York City perception that Upstate begins at the end of the subway lines in the Bronx is a consequence of the way the Times, and perhaps other, now defunct, newspapers divided the news. And this account would explain the disparities between the upstate and downstate definitions of upstate. (can of worms ahead): i think it's become clear in our old discussions of this that we can't even say there are 2 (upstate and downstate) sets of definitions of "upstate" and "downstate"--many people consider themselves upstaters who other upstaters don't consider to be upstaters. so, to me, anything south of albany isn't upstate. i think central/western new yorkers use "upstate" to mean central/western new york (perhaps i got this idea from the old _rochester democrat and chronicle_ sunday magazine, _upstate_, which only dealt with things including and west of the finger lakes.) when i tell people i'm from upstate new york, an awful lot say "oh, the adirondacks!", which i wouldn't describe as "upstate new york" but as "the adirondacks". (i guess for me, "upstate new york" means `part of the state that doesn't have its own other name'.) i had a friend from dekalb, illinois, who liked to point out that rockford, il is part of downstate, although it's north of chicago. lynne, who can't figure out whether it's p.c. to say i live in the transvaal --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:39:50 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: soda, pop, & upstate NY Lynne employs her worm-can-opener as follows: (can of worms ahead): i think it's become clear in our old discussions of this that we can't even say there are 2 (upstate and downstate) sets of definitions of "upstate" and "downstate"--many people consider themselves upstaters who other upstaters don't consider to be upstaters. so, to me, anything south of albany isn't upstate. i think central/western new yorkers use "upstate" to mean central/western new york (perhaps i got this idea from the old _rochester democrat and chronicle_ sunday magazine, _upstate_, which only dealt with things including and west of the finger lakes.) when i tell people i'm from upstate new york, an awful lot say "oh, the adirondacks!", which i wouldn't describe as "upstate new york" but as "the adirondacks". (i guess for me, "upstate new york" means `part of the state that doesn't have its own other name'.) This last point, on "Upstate N.Y." being restricted to those north-of-West- chester (or whatever the necessary geographical constraint is) places that don't have their own monikers can't really be part of the MEANING of "upstate", but only a factor which affects its use under certain conditions, in the way that 'finger' may be used so as to exclude 'thumb' (the lexical pragmatic analogue of the elsewhere principle). Under other conditions, such as when Upstate is contrasted with Downstate (or whatever we want to call it--perhaps that same principle leads us to generally abjure "Downstate" in favor of "the City", "the Metropolitan area", etc.), "Upstate" does indeed include the Adirondacks. Thus Edmund Wilson's book of reminiscences about his days spent at his home in Lewis County, in the foothills of the Adirondacks, is called "Upstate: Records and Recollections of Northern New York" (Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 1971). On Lynne's point (not reproduced above) that Rockford, Illinois --a little north but mostly west of Chicago--can count as "downstate", I wonder if in the possible world in which the secessionists of Staten Island are successful and they get the fifth borough to incorporate as a separate unit from the City, Staten Island will then come to count as part of upstate N.Y. geographically, as some would say it already is psychically. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 10:05:48 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: soda, pop, & upstate NY larry said: This last point, on "Upstate N.Y." being restricted to those north-of-West- chester (or whatever the necessary geographical constraint is) places that don't have their own monikers can't really be part of the MEANING of "upstate", but only a factor which affects its use under certain conditions, in the way that 'finger' may be used so as to exclude 'thumb' (the lexical pragmatic analogue of the elsewhere principle). larry's right. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 09:24:16 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: Hanged vs. hung My usage (likewise acquired, through correction during childhood) is the same as Dennis's, except I would use "hanged" only transitively -- e.g., "They hanged him," or "He was hanged," but "He hung by the neck." (55, white, grew up on the West Coast but parents from Iowa and Oklahoma.) Yes, it's prescriptive, but it's also a genuine relic of a historical pairing of transitive weak verbs and intransitive strong verbs that once had many more representatives.=20 Peter McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, OR=20 On Wed, 16 Oct 1996, Dennis R. Preston wrote: I believe the old prescriptivist rule is this: =20 All uses (transitive and intransitive) except one have hang - hung - hung= .. =20 The exception is with reference to execution by a rope around the neck, which is (transitive =D5they hanged him=FE or intransitive =D5he hanged b= y the neck=FE) hang - hanged - hanged. =20 You can tell right away it is a prescriptivist rule; it makes you memoriz= e stuff that sounds funny (kinda like 'whom'). A dead giveaway. =20 (You might want to check some usage books or even consult the advice standard dictionaries give. Ain't y'all got none of them up there in St. John's? I think I remember right though.) =20 My rule is much simpler (if you want ot know what a 55+ white, northern Kentuckian says): hang - hung - hung for everything =20 I do one exception; if a hanging went off without a hitch, I have a disinclination to say that the victim was 'well-hung.' =20 Dennis =20 =20 =20 As part of my coursework for an upper-division course titled "Th= e English Language," I am currently attempting to discover how the word _hang_ is currently being used in standard English. During my research, however, I've encountered one problem: What = is the proper way to write the transitive and intransitive simple past tense forms of = the verb _hang_? Is it _hanged_ or _hung_? I appreciate any help that anyone= can give me with this. Sincerely, Matt Russell senior English major at St. John's University =20 Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 =20 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 15:04:30 -0400 From: "David Bergdahl (614) 593-2783" BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Defining upstate Unless I misremember, in the '50s the primary difference between upstate and downstate was political: upstate voted Republican and downstate Democratic. ________________________________________________________________________ David Bergdahl tel: (614) 593-2783 fax: (614) 593-2818 BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Ohio University/Athens "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs ________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 14:27:33 -0400 From: e carlson ecarlson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LON.HOOKUP.NET Subject: Re: Canadian use of "klicks"? -Reply I'm still learning to speak Canadian, so I asked for an explanation from the first person I heard use the term. According to a 39 year old female, "klick" always means km. I asked if anyone used the term to refer to km/h and got a funny look and was advised that one might say that, but it wouldn't be right. Edie ecarlson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lon.hookup.net At 01:52 PM 10/16/96 -0500, Mark Mandel wrote: e carlson ecarlson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LON.HOOKUP.NET 1016.1229 "Klick" is commonly used here in south-west Ontario by people of all ages. I even hear it on local news reports. Edie ecarlson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lon.hookup.net = "km" or "km/h"? Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 13:49:38 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: Hanged vs. hung Volume II of DARE has an entry for "hang," showing the choices of past and past participial forms for 926 Informants across the country. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 16:01:21 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: Canadian use of "klicks"? -Reply -Reply Reacting to my question (='km' or = 'km/h'?), Edie Carlson wrote e carlson ecarlson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LON.HOOKUP.NET 10/17/96, 01:27pm I'm still learning to speak Canadian, so I asked for an explanation from the first person I heard use the term. According to a 39 year old female, "klick" always means km. I asked if anyone used the term to refer to km/h and got a funny look and was advised that one might say that, but it wouldn't be right. Edie ecarlson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lon.hookup.net My impression is that I heard "klick" = 'km/h' in live usage from the surface of the Moon, referring to the speed of the surface explorer vehicle. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 22:54:16 -0400 From: "Bernard W. Kane" bkane[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TIGGER.JVNC.NET Subject: Re: Defining upstate David Bergdahl writes: Unless I misremember, in the '50s the primary difference between upstate and downstate was political: upstate voted Republican and downstate Democratic. ________________________________________________________________________ The political division holds true for other states. Also: undersigned former Philadelphian always believed that "Upstate Pennsylvania" was every place in the Commonwealth north and west of Philadelphia. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Oct 1996 23:56:45 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "Addressed to a New Yorker Who Scoffed at Yankees" Abby Allin wrote a popular poem for the Boston Journal that was later republished in HOME BALLADS: A BOOK FOR NEW ENGLANDERS in 1851. The poem illustrates that "Yankees" were NOT "New York Yankees," but rather "New England Yankees," or "Connecticut Yankees." I didn't cite the poem in my "Origin of the New York Yankees" essay, but here it is: A YANKEE BALLAD. ADDRESSED TO A NEW YORKER WHO SCOFFED AT YANKEES Yes, Sir, I am a Yankee girl, I glory in the name! You spake it in contemptuous scorn, To me it breathes of fame; I'm proud of my nativity-- New England good and great, Is head and shoulders taller, sir, Than your boasted Empire State! ... ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Oct 1996 to 17 Oct 1996 ************************************************ There are 5 messages totalling 126 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Upstate (2) 2. pronunciation of Mandarin loanwords 3. Hanged vs. hung 4. "to" and "with" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 00:47:47 -0500 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: Upstate The newsgroup alt.culture.ny-upstate is, officially, concerned with New York State north of Westchester. (The charter was written by a native of Buffalo.) However, what is "really" upstate gets discussed there. At one extreme, some claim that you're not really upstate if you're not within easy walking distance of the Canadian border. And -- is my memory faulty, or don't some dialect maps show Long Island as being in the Upstate New York dialect area? As for the old political division, actually it was a bit more complicated. New York City voted Democratic, against rural Upstate. Rural Upstate voted Republican, against the City. The Upstate cities made various choices of party -- there not being a suitable third party. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 08:38:25 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Upstate Dan Goodman writes, And -- is my memory faulty, or don't some dialect maps show Long Island as being in the Upstate New York dialect area? I can't address what dialect maps show, but I'd be surprised. I spent my high school years on the south shore of Long Island (1957-61) and my undergraduate years (as mentioned yesterday) in real, upstate upstate territory (Rochester, 1961-65), and the isoglosses separating the two--both phonological and lexical--were as numerous as they were hefty. Now this was Nassau, and what I've heard of Suffolk County, the eastern half of Long Island, always struck me as more like New England in dialect terms than either New York City or Upstate N. Y. This was especially true of the rural parts of Suffolk, the potato farmers, etc. Sorry for the anecdotage of these remarks. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 10:29:04 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: pronunciation of Mandarin loanwords The following appeared in LINGUIST #7.1460. Perhaps some readers of this list can help the querent with at least the second half of his/her question. Please do NOT reply to me. -------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Oct 1996 12:17:18 BST From: wcli[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vax.ox.ac.uk Subject: Q: English/Mandarin loanword phonology Dear all, I am looking for references on English/Mandarin and Mandarin/English loanword phonology, in particular, how speakers of northern varieties of Chinese accommodate English "j" and "ch" (as in "jam" and "cheese"), and how speakers of English (or other European languages) accommodate the Chinese retroflex and alveopalatal consonants in the phonological system of their mother tongue. I would be grateful if anyone could point me to work already done on the subject, or if you are a native speaker of northern Chinese, whether you use the Mandarin retroflex consonants for English "j" and "ch", or if you know of any Mandarin speakers who do, and how common you think it is, or if you are a native speaker of English (or any other European language) learning Mandarin Chinese, whether you use the sounds "j" and "ch" to replace the Mandarin retroflex initials, or if you have heard this done by other learners of Mandarin, and how common you think it is. Thanks! Wenchao Li Lady Margaret Hall Oxford University ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 12:03:56 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hanged vs. hung At the risk of carrying coals to Newcastle, it's always appropriate to remind researchers in English usage that the first stop should be: _Webster's Dictionary of English Usage_. Edited by E. Ward Gilman. Merriam-Webster, 1989. For hanged/hung (as for many other items), it has a full page of historical and contemporary citations and discussion. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 16:21:57 +0000 From: Mary Bridget Breun mary[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ISR0998.URH.UIUC.EDU Subject: "to" and "with" I am researching the usage of the words "to" and "with." The questions I have regarding this project include: 1) What exactly do you call these words when they are used in comparing one thing to another? Ex: "I will compare my sweater to her sweater." Are they prepositions in this case? 2) Which word is appropriate to use in a comparison situation? Should I have used "I will compare my sweater with her sweater?" How do you distinguish between "to" and "with" in this case? 3) When using the words "to" and "with" after the verbs talk or speak, which is appropriate? Ex: I am talking to you; I am talking with you; I am speaking to you; I am speaking with you. 4) Again, would these words be classified as prepositions in this case? Thank you for your responses! -Mary B. Breun ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Oct 1996 to 18 Oct 1996 ************************************************ There are 6 messages totalling 224 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. science-fictional question (2) 2. "Jazz" and "Hokum" in the Library of Congress 3. Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola (2) 4. The Grapes of Wrath ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Oct 1996 23:51:35 -0500 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: science-fictional question This is the general case: Given someone who claims his native dialect is one previously unknown, how would you test this claim? More specifically: The person claims to be from an alternate world whose history diverged from ours a bit over 200 years ago. His native language is English. He claims to have grown up in southern California. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html I have always depended on the kindness of stranglers ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 01:13:42 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "Jazz" and "Hokum" in the Library of Congress Just came back from a day trip to the Library of Congress. I did a whole bunch of stuff, mainly on "jazz" and "hokum," but also "I'm from Missouri--Show Me." VON TILZER / GUMM COLLECTION What you do when you go down to the L. of C. is that you first check out the computer catalog. Then, in the Performing Arts Division, you check out the card catalog. Then you ask a librarian, and he or she tells you about other catalogs and collections that you almost missed, and you go completely batty! The Von Tilzers (Harry and Albert) wrote an amazing number of popular songs around the turn of the century. My favorite is "Take Me Out to the Ball Game"--which I can still enjoy listening to once a game. I looked through six boxes of the Von Tilzers, and THEN the librarian told me about this special collection. It was "acquired in 1982 by a purchase through the Heritage Bookshop in Los Angeles from an unidentified owner." A special collections guide was made in 1993, but it was made on TWO sides of the page, and the guide I was given was some idiot's copy of just the ODD pages. (Good enough for government work, I guess.) Harry Von Tilzer wrote a song called "Chief Hokum" in 1923; Jesse Sheidlower told me he now dates this term to 1908. However, the Von Tilzer / Gum Collection had ANOTHER one, called "Hokem." Performers included "Laugh Provokers--Red Nosed Jokers" and "Hokey Pokers--Slap Stick Soakers." The song goes: Oh, you've gotta give the folks a little hokum You've gotta soak 'em--to make them laugh... And if you ever find your act is slipping Start ripping--...I feel a draft... Now if a maiden says that she's not well sir Use selzer--in the mush... Oh you've gotta give the folks a little jokum You've gotta soak 'em to get the cash. Also in the Von Tilzer/Gum Collection was a song called "I Just Came From Old Missouri." It's incomplete, but goes: I just came from old Missouri and you got to--show me I am lonely awful lonely and So I asked the librarian--WHAT IS THIS STUFF? ARE THERE ANY DATES? COPYRIGHTS? I was told it is what it is. WHAT IS IT?? The Von Tilzers wrote many songs that are very similar to the 1898 song that we have as the origin of "I'm From Missouri--Show Me." Their song predate that one. When was this piece written? When was "Hokem" or "Hokum" written? No one knows?? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ---------------------------------------------- EVERYBODY LOVES A "JAZZ" BAND This song, published in January 1917 but sung much earlier in Chicago, is vital for the origin of "jazz." The Lincoln Center Performing Arts Library didn't have it. So I went to the L. of C., and the song wasn't in the card file. I was going nuts! There are about four audio version (with "jass" and "jazz" alternating in the title), and I heard two of them--both by the same singer. It's a peppy tune--understandably a hit--and it went like this: I heard a band the other day And let me tell you they can play In such a funny metre That your feet are Gonna make your body sway [Just what I need, a limerick!--ed.] I heard them down in New Orleans They play a rag called pork and beans Say you can't get enough Of that raggy stuff Although I don't know what it means CHORUS: Everybody loves a Jazz Band Everybody loves a Jazz Band They play a classy tune You will croon They make you think of Alabama! You'll get right on your feet And holler out "Repeat!" 'Cause the Jazz Band can't be beat! They got a funny claronet And there's a man that plays coronet In such a funny manner The piana Has to show a lot of pep In every big town cabaret They find a place where they can play And if you take the chance You'll want to dance Right through the night till break of day [Spoken] Say, mister piano man! What's this jazz stuff they're all talking about? Tickle them ivories and show me some! ....Mmman! I don't wonder--[Repeat chorus twice] Hot dog! Hot dog! You gotta go! Some jazz! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 00:41:28 +1608 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola Where in NY state is the boundary between "pop" and "soda"? The soda/pop isogloss has been discussed on this list before, with similar sketchiness. Ever since I tabulated some Missouri data in the mid-1970s and found a north-south isogloss that follows US Hwy 63 fairly closely, I've been interested in what others have found (but unfortunately haven't bothered to keep records of anecdotal [or "scientific"] stuff I've come across. They drink pop on Kansas City and soda in St Louis. It seems to me that there are pockets of usage rather than some sort of national division; maybe not even systematic regional divisions. I understand there's a soda/pop isogloss in Michigan -- like Missouri, with pop being west of soda, and the latter being urban in flavor. Maybe in Minnesota or Wisconsin too. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 09:02:15 -0400 From: "David A. Johns" djohns[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PEACHNET.CAMPUS.MCI.NET Subject: Re: Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola At 12:41 AM 10/19/96 +1608, Donald M. Lance wrote: I understand there's a soda/pop isogloss in Michigan -- like Missouri, with pop being west of soda, and the latter being urban in flavor. Maybe in Minnesota or Wisconsin too. When I moved from Chicago to Burlington, Wisconsin (75 miles NW of Chicago), in 1975, I crossed a soda/pop boundary, but I'm not sure which way. I think it was pop in Chicago and soda in Burlington -- oldtimers disease, you know. David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 10:08:25 -0500 From: Joseph Claro claro1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EARTHLINK.NET Subject: The Grapes of Wrath There's a scene in The Grapes of Wrath in which Steinbeck tosses off several wise-guy remarks found on those signs that (used to) hang on the wall near the cash register of diners, bars, and the like. The next-to-last in his series is "Eat Here and Keep Your Wife as a Pet." It's followed by a puzzling final entry: IITYWYBAD? (The question mark is Steinbeck's.) Does anyone know what those letters stand for? My guess is that it's something bawdy (by 1939 standards), and I've even worked out a few sentences that make some sense. But I'd like to find out if anyone knows what it really means. Please send responses to the list or to claro1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]earthlink.net. Thanks. Joe Claro ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Oct 1996 19:31:03 -0700 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET Subject: Re: science-fictional question At 11:51 PM 10/18/96, Dan Goodman wrote: This is the general case: Given someone who claims his native dialect is one previously unknown, how would you test this claim? More specifically: The person claims to be from an alternate world whose history diverged from ours a bit over 200 years ago. His native language is English. He claims to have grown up in southern California. Before we leave for a vacation (yeah!), a few first thoughts. Wouldn't you question this person on _his_ American history for the last 200 years? Wouldn't the answers give you some indication of the language influence differences if any? If he grew up in southern "California," with English as his native language, the alternate world history didn't seem to change the statehood and remain Mexican or something completely other. A start? Back in a couple of weeks. Rima ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Oct 1996 to 19 Oct 1996 ************************************************ There are 4 messages totalling 172 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Grand "Opportunity" Party; "Lady" 2. "MARATHON" and "-ATHON": Dance Marathons, Walkathons, Telethons, etc. 3. A Polite Spammer 4. correction - Japanese sociolinguistics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 05:21:56 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Grand "Opportunity" Party; "Lady" GOP, continued: In 19 October 1996, pg. A6, cols. 1-4 of the New York Post, a headline reads: "Kemp: 'O' in GOP for 'Opportunity'." Said Jack Kemp, "We're talking about a Grand Opportunity Party, not just for some, but for everybody." Opportunity? Let me recheck my GOP papers. I could have sworn the "O" in "GOP" was NOT "opportunity." I have it right here! The "O" in "GOP" stands for ........................... "old." LADY: A few days ago, Ron Butters made a posting about the use of "lady." The following cites should be of great interest. WHEN "LADY," WHEN "WOMAN"--World (NY), 15 June 1884, pg. 10, col. 7. THE WORD "LADY" (letter by "A LADY")--Boston Evening Transcript, 21 February 1891, pg. 12, col. 5. THE WORD "LADY" ("Ladies" at American Colleges and Elsewhere--A Lexicographer's Array of Ancient and Modern Instances, by Albert Matthews)--Boston Evening Transcript, 25 November 1899, pg. 17, cols. 5-6. I am a tremendous fan of Albert Matthews's work (he also did "Uncle Sam" and "Brother Jonathan"), and the last cite is especially useful. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 06:08:42 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "MARATHON" and "-ATHON": Dance Marathons, Walkathons, Telethons, etc. One hundred years ago, an event called the "marathon" was held for the 1896 Olympic Games. In less than two weeks, the New York City Marathon will be run. "Marathon" became well known as a test for endurance. I'll discuss this by beginning with the second part first, and start with the "dance marathon." There are two new books on this subject: DANCE MARATHONS: PERFORMING AMERICAN CULTURE IN THE 1920s AND 1930s, by Carol Martin. Jackson, Mississippi, University Press of Mississippi, 1994. DANCE OF THE SLEEP-WALKERS: THE DANCE MARATHON FAD, by Frank M. Calabria. Bowling Green, Ohio: Bowling Green State University Popular Press, 1993. Surprisingly, you won't find this in the Encyclopedia of New York City, but the Great American "Dance Marathon" Fad started in New York City, many years before the New York City Marathon road race. On 18 February 1923, Sunderland, England had started it all, and the Sunderland Magistrate later refused to permit any more endurance tests, remarking, "It is an idiotic idea, verging on lunacy" (NY Times, 11 April 1923, pg. 3). New York City responded. In the Audubon Ballroom--now famous as the murder site of Malcolm X--32-year-old Alma Cummings danced from March 30, 1923 at 6:57 p.m. until March 31, 1923 at 9:57 p.m.--27 straight hours. She exhausted six male partners in the process. The dance marathon was born. It was from the start called a "marathon." The phenomenon was later depicted in the novel and film, THEY SHOOT HORSES, DON'T THEY? On 10 June 1928, promoter and publicist Milton Crandall held the "Dance Derby of the Century" at Madison Square Garden. Health Commissioner Louis I. Harris shut down the contest in its 482nd hour on July 1. Some years later, many states (including NY) banned such contests after the deaths of some of the participants. That's why it's called a "marathon," right? The term "walkathon" dates from the early 1930s and is in the Dictionary of Americanisms from 1932. (I have 1931.) It is the same as "dance marathon," but was used to more accurately reflect what the "dancers" REALLY did. The dance marathon clippings file in the NY Public Library's Lincoln Center Performing Arts Library has a release that states "'OUR PLACE' INAUGURATES WORLD'S FIRST 'DISCOTHON' ON SUNDAY, DECEMBER 5" [1965]. Nora Hayden, the proprietor of "Our Place" at 148 East 48th Street, said, "I heard enough about the great publicity and acceptance given the marathon dancing of the late 20's and early 30's and some sports-minded friends of mine recall the fabulous days of 6-day bike racing. So I thought it was about time to kick off with a discotheque marathon. For want of a better name, I coined 'Discothon.' To my knowledge, no one else in the country has come up [with] this idea." Wentworth & Flexner's DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG contains a listing of suffixes and suffix words, but "-thon" is not there! Flexner's LISTENING TO AMERICA and I HEAR AMERICA TALKING also miss the "marathon" and "-thon" idea completely. Jerry Lewis, of course, popularized the telethon. The "walkathon" no longer involves dancing at all, but is a marathon for non-runners. There are "talkathons" and many other "-thons." All emphasize extreme endurance. Now for the first part, the origin of the marathon.... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Oct 1996 08:05:23 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: A Polite Spammer I have no idea whether any of y'all are interested in this information, but I'm forwarding it to the list because I appreciate the fact that instead of spamming lists this person has sent the mailings to listowners, asking them to consider posting it to their lists. From: "NewOnTheWeb.Com" newonweb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet-access.net Date: Sat, 19 Oct 96 22:19:23 -0400 To: ads-l-request[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: A Service for your Readers Dear Administrator, We would like to offer a News and Information source which will be of great value to you and your readers. This is a FREE! News and Information service which provides the latest on categories which you or your readers have personally selected from our list. (Create your own personal profile.) This information will be delivered to you and your subscribers' desktops every day. We will not send unsolicited mail and it's quick and easy to unsubscribe if your readers decide to. Please visit our site at: http://www.inet-access.net/~newonweb Once you have previewed our service, we're sure you'll want to share it with your subscribers. Our categories continue to grow and in the future we may have categories directly related to the subject of your mailing list. There will also be opportunities for free promotion of your site/mailing list. Please send us a brief outline about your site or subject of your mailing/newsletter. We have a circulation of about 250,000 subscribers, some of whom may be interested in the subject matter of your mailing, and may be qualified subscribers for your list. We would appreciate your passing this on to your readers by informing them of our service which is available at: http://www.inet-access.net/~newonweb HIGHLY RECOMMEND VISIT! Thank you. David Bartle president NewOnWeb.com dbartle[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet-access.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:15:45 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: correction - Japanese sociolinguistics I botched the address for the Japanese Language Research Center website that I announced on the ADS list last week. Here is the correct address: http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/index-e.htm I apologize for the error. Below is included the text of the message last week for those of you who are interested. Daniel Long (dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp) Osaka Shoin Women's College Japanese Language Research Center ============================================== I wanted to let everyone on ADS-L know that we (at the Japanese Language Research Center) are working on a bibliography of works in English on Japanese sociolinguistics. At this point, we only have a few hundred entries (and probably a few dozen errors), but we decided to make the data available as we were working on it. We have also begun a listing of linguistics meetings, and plan to have a page of links for websites relating to Japanese linguistics and linguistics in general in the near future. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Oct 1996 to 20 Oct 1996 ************************************************ There are 13 messages totalling 491 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola (3) 2. science-fictional question 3. a taste of mla 4. Need Roomie for LSA/ADS 5. RE science-fictional question 6. $250 cookie recipe. (3) 7. recipe. 8. recipe. -Reply 9. science-fictional question -Reply ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 08:32:16 -0500 From: Lou Maris marisl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US Subject: Re: Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola Southeastern Wisconsin is "soda" country. Occasionaly, "soda pop" or "soda water". Growing up in the 50's, I can't remember hearing pop at all. Of course here in Milwaukee we use the terms "bubbler" for drinking fountain. It's one way you can spot a native Milwaukeean. Lou Maris At 12:41 AM 10/19/96 +1608,. Donald M. Lance wrote: I understand there's a soda/pop isogloss in Michigan -- like Missouri, with pop being west of soda, and the latter being urban in flavor. Maybe in Minnesota or Wisconsin too. When I moved from Chicago to Burlington, Wisconsin (75 miles NW of Chicago), in 1975, I crossed a soda/pop boundary, but I'm not sure which way. I think it was pop in Chicago and soda in Burlington -- oldtimers disease, you know. David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA Lou Maris (414) 297-7368 Sociology Department Milwaukee Area Technical College 700 W. State Street Milwaukee, Wisconsin 53233 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:13:06 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola Lou Maris [appropriate name for the week the Yankees are in the world series] writes, ... Of course here in Milwaukee we use the terms "bubbler" for drinking fountain. It's one way you can spot a native Milwaukeean. I don't have a DARE on me, but I suspect the isogloss for "bubbler" is a lot broader than greater Milwaukee. We always included that item on our dialect questionnaires in Intro Ling at the U of Wisconsin - Madison, and most of the respondents from all over the state reported "bubbler" as the first choice (sometimes along with "fountain"). Maybe someone with a DARE on them can fill us in on how far within and beyond Wisconsin the "bubbler" area extends. --Larry\ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:53:44 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: Student Q: pop/soda/coke/cola lou maris said: Of course here in Milwaukee we use the terms "bubbler" for drinking fountain. It's one way you can spot a native Milwaukeean. unless, of course, you're dealing with tourists from boston. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:17:45 EDT From: Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: science-fictional question Dan raises an interesting question. Given someone who claimed his native dialect to be previously unknown, I would try to get as much material from him as possible: recorded conversations, writings, and the like. In this particular science fictional case, I might also ask him for any documents he might have from his childhood. For example, does he have any elementary school records, and if so, does the school whose name is on them exist in our world? Vicki Rosenzweig vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com | rosenzweig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acm.org http://members.tripod.com/~rosvicl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 10:22:34 +0100 From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: a taste of mla Dear ADSers: I am interested in the issue of the increased demand for standards of behavior (linguistic, social, digital) on email, listservs, and newsgroups--in fact I'm doing a paper on it at the ADS MLA in a session. The ADS session is called " :) when you say that: Debating Usage Standards for Electronic Communication" -- and this is both a reminder to ADS members at MLA (in Washington DC, a bit too early for the cherry blossoms) to come to the session, and a call for some discussion of the issues on this list. One of the tropes that I thought was dying out lately was one that we could call "patience/impatience with newbies" -- how experienced users respond to the errors of omission or commission of the less technically endowed. One of the early email phenomena, flaming, isn't dead yet (I glad I'm glad about that, so long as I'm not the flamee, that is). Another trope concerns the apparently increasing concern with standard English/correct usage -- to the point where even spelling errors, which formerly were taken for granted, are now regularly chastised (or is it chastized?). Another is an apparent increased concern with matters of correct format. With the spread of computers to desks all over the country, people want to know _how_ to begin or end messages (is there a salutation? a farewell? an inside address?); how to cite them in bibliographies (isn't the point of bibliographies to recover information? doesn't most digital information vanish when we try to revisit it?); whether to begin sentences with and . . . . Does this signal the death of the electronic frontier? Is it another sign that the millennium is at hand? the end of western civilization as we know it (in this busy modern world of today, as our students might put it)? Or what? I apologize in advance for opening up a thread that others might conceivable find silly, objectionable, or statistically unsound, and look forward (tentatively) to any responses, or flames, either personal or on the list. Yours truly, dennis - should I put my sigfile? oh, I guess so. -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English office: 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:32:19 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Need Roomie for LSA/ADS Are you a friendly, poised, sophisticated, entertaining, non-smoking female ADS member who is going to be at the LSA/ADS meeting in Chicago? Would you like to share one of the Sheraton Chicago's lovely $78 rooms (that's $39 + taxes each) with a FPSENSF who will be atttending her first national ADS meeting in many years? If so, lemme hear from you. I plan to stay there R - Sun, Jan 2-5. Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA http://ljp.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 11:55:25 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE science-fictional question Dan Goodman said: This is the general case: Given someone who claims his native dialect is one previously unknown, how would you test this claim? When did his history rejoin ours? The obvious problem is that he has since had an opportunity to pick up any distinguishing phrases and words that might differentiate the two histories. I remember reading a story that has the solution to a similar problem, although the solution probably is not usable in your case. Here's the story anway. The story takes place in India, a land of many languages. There was a particularly successful traveling showman who had a special trick among all of his others: he could speak any language, and without an accent. He had a standing offer: for a smal price you could guess his native language. If you got it right, he would give you 100 pieces of gold, which was a lot of money in that time and place. The performer was so adept that every village thought that he must, of course, speak *their* language as his first. He could recite poetry, tell tales, present orations, just about anything. In village after village people paid their money and in village after village they got it wrong. Finally, in the the northern mountains, the performer met his match. Late one night, as he was sleeping, the village headman snuck into the showman's room and poured ice cold water on him. "Aaaaaaugh! What in the name of the Gods?!" the showman cried out... in his first and native language, of course! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 15:21:12 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU Subject: $250 cookie recipe. I guess this is not too relevant here, but it DOES deal with a case of miscommunication. And anyone who bakes might appreciate it. Hope it's not illegal. Ellen _______________________ Forward Header _______________________ Subject: $250 cookie recipe. Author: Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU at INETGW Date: 10/21/96 2:46 PM _______________________ Forward Header _______________________ Subject: $250 cookie recipe. Author: JLLOTT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU at INETGW Date: 10/18/96 1:11 PM ************************************************************ This is a true story that was forwarded to me. Read it and learn. Bake the cookies and enjoy them and then forward this to all you know! My daughter & I had just finished a salad at Neiman-Marcus Cafe in Dallas & decided to have a small dessert. Because both of us are such cookie lovers, we decided to try the "Neiman-Marcus Cookie". It was so excellent that I asked if they would give me the recipe and the waitress said with a small frown, "I'm afraid not." Well, I said, would you let me buy the recipe? With a cute smile, she said, "Yes." I asked how much, and she responded, "Only two fifty, it's a great deal!" I said with approval, just add it to my tab. Thirty days later, I received my VISA statement from Neiman-Marcus and it was $285.00. I looked again and I remembered I had only spent $9.95 for two salads and about $20.00 for a scarf. As I glanced at the bottom of the statement, it said, "Cookie Recipe - $250.00." That's outrageous!! I called Neiman's Accounting Dept. and told them the waitress said it was "two-fifty," which clearly does not mean "two hundred and fifty dollars" by any *POSSIBLE* interpretation of the phrase. Nieman-Marcus refused to budge. They would not refund my money, because according to them, "What the waitress told you is not our problem. You have already seen the recipe - we absolutely will not refund your money at this point." I explained to her the criminal statutes which govern fraud in Texas, I threatened to refer them to the Better Business Bureau and the State's Attorney General for engaging in fraud. I was basically told, "Do what you want, we don't give a crap, and we're not refunding your money." I waited, thinking of how I could get even, or even try and get any of my money back. I just said, "Okay, you folks got my $250, and now I'm going to have $250.00 worth of fun." I told her that I was going to see to it that every cookie lover in the United States with an e-mail account has a $250.00 cookie recipe from Neiman-Marcus... for free. She replied, "I wish you wouldn't do this." I said, "Well, you should have thought of that before you ripped me off, and slammed down the phone on her. So, here it is!!! Please, please, please pass it on to everyone you can possibly think of. I paid $250 dollars for this... I don't want Nieman-Marcus to *ever* get another penny off of this recipe.... (Recipe may be halved.): 2 cups butter 4 cups flour 2 tsp. soda 2 cups sugar 5 cups blended oatmeal** ** Measure oatmeal and blend in a blender to a fine powder 24 oz. chocolate chips 2 cups brown sugar 1 tsp. salt 1 8 oz. Hershey Bar (grated) 4 eggs 2 tsp. baking powder 3 cups chopped nuts (your choice) 2 tsp. vanilla Cream the butter and both sugars. Add eggs and vanilla; mix together with flour, oatmeal, salt, baking powder, and soda. Add chocolate chips, Hershey Bar and nuts. Roll into balls and place two inches apart on a cookie sheet. Bake for 10 minutes at 375 degrees. Makes 112 cookies. Have fun!!! This is *not* a joke --- this is a true story.. Ride free, citizen! Wanda Vasey enjoy! -j ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 15:36:05 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU Subject: recipe. I was just informed by someone on another list that the cookie story was an urban legend that has been circulating for years (and of course has been refuted by N-M). But they said the cookies were great! Gee, I'd rather still be in Vegas, but I guess I'd better get back to work. 'twas good to see some of you. ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 16:59:50 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: recipe. -Reply Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU 10/21/96, 04:36pm I was just informed by someone on another list that the cookie story was an urban legend that has been circulating for years (and of course has been refuted by N-M). But they said the cookies were great! (Grumble.) _Amer.Her._ says "refute" can mean "rebut", but I'd rather preserve the distinction between PROVING it ain't so and just SAYING it ain't so. -- Dr. Whom: Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 17:14:44 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: science-fictional question -Reply Shortly after posting here his earlier question about possible alternate dialects of English, Daniel Goodman posted a song lyric in such a dialect to a newsgroup I also belong to... and, not recognizing his name across contexts, I asked if I could post it here and mail it to the person who had asked about alternate dialects of English! He said OK; perhaps modesty detained him from doing it in the first place, or maybe he felt it was too far off-topic here. Well, here it is. I like it, and I'm working on pronunciations evolved from Middle English to sing it with. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------------------------------- From: dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com (Daniel Goodman) Newsgroups: alt.music.filk,soc.history.what-if Subject: new -- alternate world filk Date: 19 Oct 1996 05:39:25 GMT Note: This is not a song _about_ alternate history, but a song _from_ an alternate history; one whose brand of English is at least a bit different from ours, and one in which different songs survived in folk tradition. I Have a Young Sister I have a young sister Who lives beyond the sea. Many a fine present She has given me. She gave me the cherry Without a stone. She gave me the dove Without a bone. She gave me the briar Without a rind. She bade me love my true love Without longing. How can the cherry Grow without a stone? How can the dove Fly without a bone? How can the briar Grow without a rind? How can a maid love Without longing. When the cherry was a flower, Then had it no stone. When the dove was an ey, Then had it no bone. When the briar was unbred, Then had it no rind. When a maid has what she loves, She has no longing. Tune? "I Gave my Love a Cherry" works. Note -- the e in dove is pronounced; not common in that brand of English, but just usual enough to be acceptable. "Stone" and "bone" are pronounced closer to "stane" and "bane". ----------------------------------------------------- MM: Is "rind" supposed to rhyme, exactly or closely, with "longing" & "ring"? DG: No, it isn't. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 17:27:14 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: $250 cookie recipe. Hope it's not illegal. Ellen Not illegal, but it's an Urban Legend that has been making the rounds of the net for years. The four most famous net hoaxes are the Neiman- Marcus cookie storie, Craig Shergold's quest for business cards or postcards (based on something that did happen, but it was long ago, he's alive and well and an adult and is *not* soliciting cards), the proposed modem tax, and the Good Times virus. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Oct 1996 18:41:42 -0400 From: Barbara Nelson BDN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SOFTBREW.COM Subject: Re: $250 cookie recipe. My daughter will probably try the recipe--it's a little different than (or is it from?) her usual. Fix that phrase--it's not the same as her usual. We did decide it was a "tall tale" because no one but an idiot would have signed the charge slip and if one did, it would have been very easy to get it credited. What about the disgruntled boy/girl friend who has a load of pre-mixed concrete dumped in the convertible of two-timing lover? Now that one I can picture! bn At 05:27 PM 10/21/96 -0500, you wrote: Hope it's not illegal. Ellen Not illegal, but it's an Urban Legend that has been making the rounds of the net for years. The four most famous net hoaxes are the Neiman- Marcus cookie storie, Craig Shergold's quest for business cards or postcards (based on something that did happen, but it was long ago, he's alive and well and an adult and is *not* soliciting cards), the proposed modem tax, and the Good Times virus. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) Barbara Nelson E-Mail bdn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]softbrew.com ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Oct 1996 to 21 Oct 1996 ************************************************ There are 5 messages totalling 204 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. $250 cookie recipe. 2. a taste of mla (4) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 00:20:50 +1608 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: $250 cookie recipe. This is an urban legend, and Jan Brunvand has collected lots of versions. He has a section on it in CURSES! BROILED AGAIN: THE HOTTEST URBAN LEGENDS GOING (Norton, 1989). The fact that this one is in the first person makes it bogus -- gotta be a friend of a friend who had the experience. As it turns out, Nieman Marcus doesn't make or sell cookies, Brunvand says. He also says this story is probably a new version of the 1950s urban legend about Red Velvet Cake at the Waldorf-Astoria. A couple of friends of mine here in Columbia came across this recipe several years ago (long story) and tried it. Experienced cookie-bakers and tasters, they noticed immediately that the measurement of baking soda and baking powder is wrong. It should be 2T, not 2t. [So, Ellen, there's more miscommunication here than you were aware of.] The cookies are wonderful. Becky and Ruth use Hershey's Baking Chocolate rather than a Hershey bar. They also noticed that this is a double recipe, so they cut it in half. Becky bakes them often, and I like them too much. The oatmeal flour gives them a silky texture, and the grated chocolate folded into the dough makes them, as Becky says, "chocolate chocolate-chip cookies," a chocoholic's dream. -------------------- I guess this is not too relevant here, but it DOES deal with a case of miscommunication. And anyone who bakes might appreciate it. Hope it's not illegal. Ellen _______________________ Forward Header _______________________ Subject: $250 cookie recipe. Author: Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU at INETGW Date: 10/21/96 2:46 PM _______________________ Forward Header _______________________ Subject: $250 cookie recipe. Author: JLLOTT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX1.MEMPHIS.EDU at INETGW Date: 10/18/96 1:11 PM ************************************************************ This is a true story that was forwarded to me. Read it and learn. Bake the cookies and enjoy them and then forward this to all you know! My daughter & I had just finished a salad at Neiman-Marcus Cafe in Dallas & decided to have a small dessert. Because both of us are such cookie lovers, we decided to try the "Neiman-Marcus Cookie". It was so excellent that I asked if they would give me the recipe and the waitress said with a small frown, "I'm afraid not." Well, I said, would you let me buy the recipe? With a cute smile, she said, "Yes." I asked how much, and she responded, "Only two fifty, it's a great deal!" I said with approval, just add it to my tab. Thirty days later, I received my VISA statement from Neiman-Marcus and it was $285.00. I looked again and I remembered I had only spent $9.95 for two salads and about $20.00 for a scarf. As I glanced at the bottom of the statement, it said, "Cookie Recipe - $250.00." That's outrageous!! I called Neiman's Accounting Dept. and told them the waitress said it was "two-fifty," which clearly does not mean "two hundred and fifty dollars" by any *POSSIBLE* interpretation of the phrase. Nieman-Marcus refused to budge. They would not refund my money, because according to them, "What the waitress told you is not our problem. You have already seen the recipe - we absolutely will not refund your money at this point." I explained to her the criminal statutes which govern fraud in Texas, I threatened to refer them to the Better Business Bureau and the State's Attorney General for engaging in fraud. I was basically told, "Do what you want, we don't give a crap, and we're not refunding your money." I waited, thinking of how I could get even, or even try and get any of my money back. I just said, "Okay, you folks got my $250, and now I'm going to have $250.00 worth of fun." I told her that I was going to see to it that every cookie lover in the United States with an e-mail account has a $250.00 cookie recipe from Neiman-Marcus... for free. She replied, "I wish you wouldn't do this." I said, "Well, you should have thought of that before you ripped me off, and slammed down the phone on her. So, here it is!!! Please, please, please pass it on to everyone you can possibly think of. I paid $250 dollars for this... I don't want Nieman-Marcus to *ever* get another penny off of this recipe.... (Recipe may be halved.): 2 cups butter 4 cups flour 2 tsp. soda 2 cups sugar 5 cups blended oatmeal** ** Measure oatmeal and blend in a blender to a fine powder 24 oz. chocolate chips 2 cups brown sugar 1 tsp. salt 1 8 oz. Hershey Bar (grated) 4 eggs 2 tsp. baking powder 3 cups chopped nuts (your choice) 2 tsp. vanilla Cream the butter and both sugars. Add eggs and vanilla; mix together with flour, oatmeal, salt, baking powder, and soda. Add chocolate chips, Hershey Bar and nuts. Roll into balls and place two inches apart on a cookie sheet. Bake for 10 minutes at 375 degrees. Makes 112 cookies. Have fun!!! This is *not* a joke --- this is a true story.. Ride free, citizen! Wanda Vasey enjoy! -j ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 11:15:16 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: a taste of mla I apologize in advance for opening up a thread that others might conceivable find silly, objectionable, or statistically unsound, and look forward (tentatively) to any responses, or flames, either personal or on the list. Since nobody has responded yet (at least on the list), I'm responding simply to say that I don't find the topic at all silly or objectionable and that I don't see how discussing such matters necessarily requires statistical soundness. One problem you may run into with this topic is the different personalities of different lists. That was one of many problems I faced when writing a rather wispy paper on net language in the late '80s. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 13:01:23 -0400 From: Bill Spruiell 3lfyuji[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU Subject: Re: a taste of mla It occurs to me that demographic changes among email-users might account for some of the changes in "custom", in addition to any "evolution" of the field. In the mid eighties, email users were primarily academics (from the physical sciences) and engineers/programmers, etc.; not groups you would expect to be grammatically or formally punctilious. Once email started to become part of the standard operating procedure of large businesses, one could expect some of the same concerns that those businesses had about their written communications to be applied to their electronic ones. Since most large corporations want to focus on anything but actual content [I don't know of an emoticon to mark a gratuitious dig, but insert one here] form becomes a driving issue. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 12:20:43 -0500 From: Tom Beckner TMBECKNER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAYLORU.EDU Subject: Re: a taste of mla As long as e-mail was only used by a few folks, as a more or less private communication, there was little concern re: standards, appropriateness, etc. This concerns you observe stem, I feel, from a growing awareness that e-mail is now used for more formal and official communications. As it replaces snail mail or as it becomes the permanent document of record, these concerns will increase. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Oct 1996 12:42:34 +0100 From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: a taste of mla I agree, Bill, that demographics plays an important role. There were quite a few humanities types using computers in the mid-80s, and a lot of the participants in newsgroups like alt.usage.english, which is concerned with proper language and conventions, are in fact computer nerds rather than corporate types. But it does seem to me interesting that as the electronic frontier recedes toward the horizon, the city slickers have taken over from the pioneers. Dennis -- It occurs to me that demographic changes among email-users might account for some of the changes in "custom", in addition to any "evolution" of the field. In the mid eighties, email users were primarily academics (from the physical sciences) and engineers/programmers, etc.; not groups you would expect to be grammatically or formally punctilious. Once email started to become part of the standard operating procedure of large businesses, one could expect some of the same concerns that those businesses had about their written communications to be applied to their electronic ones. Since most large corporations want to focus on anything but actual content [I don't know of an emoticon to mark a gratuitious dig, but insert one here] form becomes a driving issue. Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English office: 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Oct 1996 to 22 Oct 1996 ************************************************ There are 10 messages totalling 406 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. a taste of mla (2) 2. Archiving Question (4) 3. Archiving Question - Reply/Answer/Response/Rejoinder/Riposte (4) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 08:53:43 -0500 From: Scott Ann M ams8950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USL.EDU Subject: Re: a taste of mla Editing programs are more available for email now than they used to be. This makes it much easier to clean up our communications. I, however, am still using the basic unix mail command and have only a backspace key (sometimes not even that for mysterious reasons) with which to correct the many typing errors I make. If I hit enter and make a new line before I catch the error, there is no way to correct it. As a technical communicator though, I applaud any move in the direction of more careful electronic speech - not because of any prescriptivist leanings for I have few, but in the interest of quick, clear communication of content. Even online, for me anyway, errors call attention away from the message and thus slow or impede the flow. Ann Martin ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 09:29:34 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: a taste of mla This makes it much easier to clean up our communications. I, however, am still using the basic unix mail command and have only a backspace key (sometimes not even that for mysterious reasons) with which to correct the many typing errors I make. If I hit enter and make a new line before I catch the error, there is no way to correct it. There may be something odd about your specific system, but it's not because you're using the basic unix mail command. Unix mail is by far my favorite mail program. People frequently tell me I'm weird for preferring it to the alternatives like mush, pine, and elm, but I still love the plain vanilla mail program. It does everything I want it to do -- and it certainly allows editing. Specify the editor of your choice (my choice is vi) in your .mailrc file and enter ~e any time you want to invoke it. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 16:27:30 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Archiving Question Am I correct in assuming that ADS-L should *not* be so archived? Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:14:31 -0700 (PDT) To: maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu From: List Archive Manager list-manager[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Reference.COM Subject: request to archive mailing lists Hi, InReference, Inc. has developed a search service (Reference.COM) that provides the Internet community fast, easy, and free access to Usenet and electronic mailing lists. The service is made possible in large part by the contributions (software, hardware, communications infrastructure) of NASA Ames, Sun, Oracle, Verity, Pacific Bell, Storage Computer and others. The service includes paid advertising from corporate sponsors, in addition to free advertising space for non-profits. The service is both Web and e-mail accessible. It is expected to be the largest online repository of Usenet and electronic mailing list archives. InReference's goal is to provide users with fairly complete coverage of Usenet and electronic mailing lists. To this end, we would like to subscribe to the following lists that you manage: ADS-L WORDS-L By allowing us access to your lists, you will be making your content (current and historical) easily accessible to the Internet community, as well as your own subscribers. As an example, we archive the INDIA-L mailing list from indnet.bgsu.edu. Subscribers to this mailing list can search and browse its contents at URL: http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=INDIA-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indnet.bgsu.edu [the rest of the message deleted since the info above should be plenty for you to say yes or no to -- I'll assume no as the default] --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 20:04:02 -0600 From: Samuel Jones smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: Archiving Question - Reply/Answer/Response/Rejoinder/Riposte Hi! From here, "No!" would indeed seem to be the proper response. Thank you for asking. smjones Am I correct in assuming that ADS-L should *not* be so archived? Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:14:31 -0700 (PDT) To: maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu From: List Archive Manager list-manager[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Reference.COM Subject: request to archive mailing lists Hi, InReference, Inc. has developed a search service (Reference.COM) that provides the Internet community fast, easy, and free access to Usenet and electronic mailing lists. The service is made possible in large part by the contributions (software, hardware, communications infrastructure) of NASA Ames, Sun, Oracle, Verity, Pacific Bell, Storage Computer and others. The service includes paid advertising from corporate sponsors, in addition to free advertising space for non-profits. The service is both Web and e-mail accessible. It is expected to be the largest online repository of Usenet and electronic mailing list archives. InReference's goal is to provide users with fairly complete coverage of Usenet and electronic mailing lists. To this end, we would like to subscribe to the following lists that you manage: ADS-L WORDS-L By allowing us access to your lists, you will be making your content (current and historical) easily accessible to the Internet community, as well as your own subscribers. As an example, we archive the INDIA-L mailing list from indnet.bgsu.edu. Subscribers to this mailing list can search and browse its contents at URL: http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=INDIA-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indnet.bgsu.edu [the rest of the message deleted since the info above should be plenty for you to say yes or no to -- I'll assume no as the default] --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ____________________________________________________________________________ DR. SAMUEL M. JONES INTERNET: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu Prof. of Music & Latin American Studies TELNET: samjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu 5434 Humanities Building FAX: 608 + 262-8876 (UW) 455 North Park Street __________________________________________ University of Wisconsin-Madison TELEPHONES: 608 + 263-1900 (UW-Lv. message) Madison, WI 53706-1483 * 608 + 263-1924 * (UW-Office - * VOICE MAIL--Lv message) ____________________________________________________________________________ "Pen-y-Bryn" TELEPHONES: 608 + 233-2150 (Home) 122 Shepard Terrace 608 + 233-4748 (Home) Madison, WI 53705-3614 ____________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 21:51:51 PDT From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: Archiving Question - Reply/Answer/Response/Rejoinder/Riposte Am I correct in assuming that ADS-L should *not* be so archived? From here, "No!" would indeed seem to be the proper response. Thank you for asking. I have checked this web site, rummaged around in it a bit. It seems totally legitimate and a valuable addition to search engines for the Internet. I would think that a true scholar would applaud an effort that makes information more readily available. I simply cannot understand why one would _assume_ that ADS-L members should *not* associate themselves with the dissemination of their knowledge and information or why "No!" would be a proper response. Is it possible that the academics on this erudite list, who disdain lowly outsiders who are not paid acolytes of the language biz, would be embarrassed by endless debate on the soda vs. pop issue or where barefoot-and-pregnant originated? Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net When I die and go to Hell, at least I can get my same ISP. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 21:49:27 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Archiving Question - Reply/Answer/Response/Rejoinder/Riposte I have checked this web site, rummaged around in it a bit. It seems totally legitimate and a valuable addition to search engines for the Internet. I would I agree that it's probably a valuable addition to the net. think that a true scholar would applaud an effort that makes information more readily available. I simply cannot understand why one would _assume_ that ADS-L members should *not* associate themselves with the dissemination of their knowledge and information or why "No!" would be a proper response. For the same reasons that we decided not to announce the existence of ADS-L except to ADS members when the list was first started. Since then its existence has shown up in various indexes without ill effect, of course. And my guess is that these days the risks are smaller of having a list like ADS-L turn into a babble-fest than they were back when there were fewer lists around. But I still am guessing that most ADSers will prefer not to publicize the list unnecessarily. Is it possible that the academics on this erudite list, who disdain lowly outsiders who are not paid acolytes of the language biz, would be embarrassed by endless debate on the soda vs. pop issue or where barefoot-and-pregnant originated? Embarrassed? I don't think so. Maybe bored -- if you do mean "endless debate" on these topics. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 22:12:23 EDT From: Charles & Mary Boewe boewes[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JUNO.COM Subject: Re: Archiving Question I have used Reference.com with pleasure and satisfaction. Choosing not to pay for a commercial internet server and retired without institutional access to e-mail, I have exploited freenets and advertising-supported e-mail such as the Juno system that is going to transmit this message. Of them, Reference.com has such low key advertising that one is scarcely conscious of it. With it I was able to locate the "easter egg" in Windows95--and how else might one come by such interesting but ephemeral knowledge? I say, let it archive away. Charles Boewe ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 12:20:10 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: Archiving Question I wonder if you (or someone) could (very briefly) give some reasons for the "no" response. As someone who uses search engines a lot, my reaction would have been "yes". There must be some disadvantages that I am not aware of. Is it going to cost us anything? Since the archives are already "open" in the sense that anyone on the web can look into them, wouldn't it be helpful to have them searchable? Danny Natalie Maynor wrote: Am I correct in assuming that ADS-L should *not* be so archived? Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:14:31 -0700 (PDT) To: maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu From: List Archive Manager list-manager[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Reference.COM Subject: request to archive mailing lists Hi, InReference, Inc. has developed a search service (Reference.COM) that provides the Internet community fast, easy, and free access to Usenet and electronic mailing lists. The service is made possible in large part by the contributions (software, hardware, communications infrastructure) of NASA Ames, Sun, Oracle, Verity, Pacific Bell, Storage Computer and others. The service includes paid advertising from corporate sponsors, in addition to free advertising space for non-profits. The service is both Web and e-mail accessible. It is expected to be the largest online repository of Usenet and electronic mailing list archives. InReference's goal is to provide users with fairly complete coverage of Usenet and electronic mailing lists. To this end, we would like to subscribe to the following lists that you manage: ADS-L WORDS-L By allowing us access to your lists, you will be making your content (current and historical) easily accessible to the Internet community, as well as your own subscribers. As an example, we archive the INDIA-L mailing list from indnet.bgsu.edu. Subscribers to this mailing list can search and browse its contents at URL: http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=INDIA-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indnet.bgsu.edu [the rest of the message deleted since the info above should be plenty for you to say yes or no to -- I'll assume no as the default] --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) -- Daniel Long Japanese Language Research Center Osaka Shoin Women's College 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 tel and fax +81-6-729-1831 email dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 20:38:22 -0700 From: Anna Peden psu11403[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ODIN.CC.PDX.EDU Subject: Re: Archiving Question I vote yes...Even though a lot of these messages are trivial, I still find some worthwhile (hence my continued subscription) and why NOT hook up to a wide range search engine. None of these messages are private and could at some point in the future be of aid to a curious wordster. On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, Daniel Long wrote: I wonder if you (or someone) could (very briefly) give some reasons for the "no" response. As someone who uses search engines a lot, my reaction would have been "yes". There must be some disadvantages that I am not aware of. Is it going to cost us anything? Since the archives are already "open" in the sense that anyone on the web can look into them, wouldn't it be helpful to have them searchable? Danny Natalie Maynor wrote: Am I correct in assuming that ADS-L should *not* be so archived? Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 14:14:31 -0700 (PDT) To: maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu From: List Archive Manager list-manager[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Reference.COM Subject: request to archive mailing lists Hi, InReference, Inc. has developed a search service (Reference.COM) that provides the Internet community fast, easy, and free access to Usenet and electronic mailing lists. The service is made possible in large part by the contributions (software, hardware, communications infrastructure) of NASA Ames, Sun, Oracle, Verity, Pacific Bell, Storage Computer and others. The service includes paid advertising from corporate sponsors, in addition to free advertising space for non-profits. The service is both Web and e-mail accessible. It is expected to be the largest online repository of Usenet and electronic mailing list archives. InReference's goal is to provide users with fairly complete coverage of Usenet and electronic mailing lists. To this end, we would like to subscribe to the following lists that you manage: ADS-L WORDS-L By allowing us access to your lists, you will be making your content (current and historical) easily accessible to the Internet community, as well as your own subscribers. As an example, we archive the INDIA-L mailing list from indnet.bgsu.edu. Subscribers to this mailing list can search and browse its contents at URL: http://www.reference.com/cgi-bin/pn/listarch?list=INDIA-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indnet.bgsu.edu [the rest of the message deleted since the info above should be plenty for you to say yes or no to -- I'll assume no as the default] --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) -- Daniel Long Japanese Language Research Center Osaka Shoin Women's College 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 tel and fax +81-6-729-1831 email dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 12:51:35 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: Archiving Question - Reply/Answer/Response/Rejoinder/Riposte My two yen: I would propose (if anybody asked, and nobody did) that the solution to the (potential) problem is not to make the archives "closed" (they are already browsable if someone knows where to look -- on the ADS website), but to make the ADS-L a forum for ADS members only. This should be easy enough to do. When someone applies to the listserv whose name is not on the ADS membership list, they would be turned down. (I know that this is possible, because another list that I belong to "approves" it applicants first.) This would limit those who want to participate on a daily basis to ADS members. But the archives could still be made available to every Tom, Dick and Harriet. Next question: What if every Tom, Dick and Harriet then decides they want to join the ADS just to get on the list? Let 'em, if they're that determined. Allan'd get their 30 bucks. Who cares. Anyone is free to (pay $30 to) join the ADS as it is now anyway. I say, bring us your tired (topics of discussion) and your poor (souls who flunked lingusitics 101), your masses yearning for a babble-fest. Take 'em for thirty bucks, and maybe there'd be enough money left over that we could get free coffee and donuts in Chicago instead of having to pay twenty dollars. Danny (who hasn't paid his '96 dues yet) Long Natalie Maynor wrote: For the same reasons that we decided not to announce the existence of ADS-L except to ADS members when the list was first started. Since then its existence has shown up in various indexes without ill effect, of course. And my guess is that these days the risks are smaller of having a list like ADS-L turn into a babble-fest than they were back when there were fewer lists around. But I still am guessing that most ADSers will prefer not to publicize the list unnecessarily. -- Daniel Long Japanese Language Research Center Osaka Shoin Women's College 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 tel and fax +81-6-729-1831 email dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Oct 1996 to 23 Oct 1996 ************************************************ There are 14 messages totalling 475 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Archiving Question (5) 2. bang (5) 3. Archiving Question - Reply/Answer/Response/Rejoinder/Riposte 4. Research Fellowship in London 5. bubblers everywhere (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 00:09:54 -0400 From: TERRY IRONS t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: Archiving Question If I understand correctly (but I haven't been looking lately), daily logs are archived at Mississipi State. If I am wrong, perhaps the rest of my argument is moot. Given that archives are available, what are the benefits of using this new service? Easy access to what we discuss? Is that important? The more important question is, what is in it for this company to archive the ADS-L emissives at no charge to us? Something free is not usually all that free. I have not looked at this service, but I understand that they are in business to make a profit. I have visited web pages that have advertising marquees (sp). If the ADS-L material is placed on such pages, the list will lose all control of the context in which the information is viewed. Who knows what will be advertised along with our discussions of the social/spatial distribution of the popa/soda variable (And by the by, I am driving myself crazy, and perhaps people where I live because for some reason I am now using soda and sack much more frequently than pop and bag, when I have always been a good pop/bag man which is also appropriate to where I live. GO figure. Wait. THis may be the twaddle that I am ashamed to let the world see.). I can see now a Pepsi can scrolling across the top of the page as someone retrieves this very message. My point is this: allowing the ADS logs to be placed into a commercial server will result in a loss of control of what happens to the material and these people will be able to use OUR words for their profit goals. And as I believe in the ephemerality of the electronic world, forever re-configured anew, I see no benefit to ADS-L in this request. NO Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 06:38:28 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Archiving Question I wonder if you (or someone) could (very briefly) give some reasons for the "no" response. As someone who uses search engines a lot, my reaction would have been "yes". There must be some disadvantages that I am not aware of. Is it going to cost us anything? Since the archives are already "open" in the sense that anyone on the web can look into them, wouldn't it be helpful to have them searchable? When Bill Krestzschmar and I, standing at some kind of SAMLA reception five years ago, conceived the idea for ADS-L, we discussed the potential problems involved in starting such a list. The main problem we saw was that (at least back then) it was quite common for a list with serious purposes to be taken over by babblers and turned into something quite different from what it started out to be. I think I even mentioned Words-L, which happens to be my favorite list on the net but which is 100% recreational. As much as I love Words-L, a list that was started as a discussion of the English language but evolved into a discussion of anything anybody wants to discuss, I don't see any point in having two such lists in my life. I like having Words-L for discussing recipes and animals and politics and blue M&Ms and having ADS-L for discussing dialectology and sociolinguistics. Bill and I talked briefly about the measures that can be taken to prevent a list from changing in such a way. One obvious one, of course, is to make it a moderated list. I told Bill that night (and I haven't changed my mind) that that would be fine if somebody else is willing to be listowner but that I personally hate moderated lists and would never be listowner of one. (I don't like getting spurts of old mail in clumps. I think one of the beauties of e-mail is the immediacy of it, which is taken away when somebody holds the mail for several days before distributing it.) Another measure that might cut down on list-crashers is making it a closed list in that new subscribers send the subscription request to the listowner and are manually added. That, of course, doesn't really rule out list-hoppers. It could if membership in ADS were a requirement -- something else I think Bill and I talked about five years ago. But there are several problems with that, including the problem faced by any list that requires listowner intervention for subscription -- if the listowner is away from the computer, the request sits and waits. And when the listowner logs on, there are more list-related tasks to take care of (which is not really a big deal with me most of the time but can be a problem when I'm traveling -- e.g., I spent $200 on online time while traveling last July, much of that for time spent dealing with things like errors messages for subscribers). This is getting too long for the brief answer you asked for, and I just looked at the clock and see that I'm already past my turn-off-the-computer and-get-ready-for-the-day deadline. More later, if anybody wants more. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 07:49:22 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: bang is "bang" as slang for shooting up heroin just brit english or also amerenglish? lynne, who's never shot up heroin in america --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 08:34:40 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: bang Lynne, We are definitely going to use your message in semantics/pragmatics classes to determine if most people believe - a) you have never shot up anywhere, b) related possibilities: 1) you have shot up (probably in England), 2) you have shot up (anywhere outside America), or c) you were fully aware of the ambiguity of a) and b) and did it jokingly Of course, we will not use your name. Who knows how long the arm of the narcs is? Dennis is "bang" as slang for shooting up heroin just brit english or also amerenglish? lynne, who's never shot up heroin in america --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 07:39:45 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Archiving Question In my rush to move from computer to shower to car to campus while ago, I don't think I ever finished answering Danny's questions. I'll make the end of the story of the history of the list brief: The end of the story is that Bill and I decided that night at SAMLA that we could try sort of a compromise -- that ADS-L could be an open list but that we wouldn't announce its creation in all the usual places like NEWLIST-L. As I mentioned earlier, it has been picked up by various index-compilers through the years since then, but so far there haven't been any problems. I think it's good to have some non-ADS members on ADS-L, especially since some of them get interested enough to join ADS. As for what Danny said about the availability of the list archives right now, it's true that they're sitting there on the web for anybody who wants to read them (all except the first year of the list's life, for which we have no archives). They're also available via gopher and anonymous ftp. Although I didn't read the announcement about the new search tool carefully, I think our inclusion in the lists it covers would bring attention some of you might not like. Because Words-L is gatewayed to usenet, its discussions are included in DejaNews, the web search tool for usenet articles. (There's a way an individual can create headers to stay out of DejaNews, btw, although sometimes that person is quoted in list replies of people who have not created the headers to stay out of it.) A web cruiser hunting for the famous net porno sometimes stumbles upon Words-L because somebody might use the word "fuck." The net cruiser might decide to hang around the list or might send direct mail to the poster of the "fuck" message -- regardless of how the word might have been used (e.g., it might have been used in a discussion of male/female differences in language use or whatever). We were once discussing on Words-L the distribution of the terms "underpants" versus "panties." I said something on that topic and ended up getting e-mail from a couple of weirdos who found it via DejaNews, weirdos who wanted to discuss underpants, not dialectal variation. And this reply is also getting too long. I need to get ready for my 8:00 class. I think I've said enough to indicate why I personally don't think ADS-L wants to be involved with the new archiving tool. But what I personally think on this topic doesn't matter. My very strong philosophy on "list ownership" is that the list owner takes care of mechanical matters only and does not try to exert any kind of "control." --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 09:02:35 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: bang is "bang" as slang for shooting up heroin just brit english or also amerenglish? According to the Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang, _bang_ v. 'to inject (or, occ. inhale) a narcotic' has been current in the U.S. since 1926. It has been in relatively wide use. Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 09:03:14 -0500 From: Tom Beckner TMBECKNER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAYLORU.EDU Subject: Re: bang Bang, meaning to shoot up a narcotic is certainly a current term in U.S. prisons and has been for some time. W. Thomas Beckner Taylor university University--Ft. Wayne tmbeckner[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tayloru.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 09:31:46 EDT From: Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer owner-LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Archiving Question - Reply/Answer/Response/Rejoinder/Riposte I have no problem with our posts being archived--I sort of assume that anything I send to a mailing list might be landing on someone;s hard disk somewhere. But I do want to comment on the remarks about "academics on this erudite list" and alleged "outsiders." My total academic background is a B.A. in history--I took a couple of linguistics courses, and have studied three foreign languages (and forgotten two), but it was by no means my main study. I came over here looking for a balance--I'm a copyeditor by trade and was worried about a tendency to overly prescriptive editing, the sort of thing that has me mumbling "that's not a word!" at my desk-- and found it valuable, enough so that I have in fact joined ADS. In other words, there doesn't seem to be a distinction here between academics and outsiders. There is some attempt to explain that "My cousin Pat said it came from X" isn't really good evidence for an etymology, but I hope nobody feels excluded by that. Vicki Rosenzweig vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com | rosenzweig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acm.org http://members.tripod.com/~rosvicl ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 11:43:51 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: Archiving Question 1. I like the idea of the additional archive. It's true that ADS-L is archived elsewhere, but that archive is not searchable. Last week I looked for a word discussion on the current archive and it took forever to download the sections and then do a search in my text editor. 2. I dislike the idea of a members-only list. Of course, I am not yet an ADS member, so I naturally wouldn't. I am an amateur who learns a thing or three. 3. I don't see additional traffic being a problem. I believe that the tone and professionalism of most of the posts is enough to encourage the same from new subscribers and that trash posts can be kept to a minimum. Like Vicki, I joined the list to provide stimulation I can't get elsewhere. I back up ADS-L with the EDIE-CECTAL and NAT-LANG lists and am quite content, although God forbid I take a couple days off. So I am, technically, and outsider on this erudite elite list, and glad of it. I get the mental tickles I miss from when I was in journalism. Nothing like good wordplay. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]jerrynet.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 13:39:47 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Re: bang On Thu, 24 Oct 1996, M. Lynne Murphy wrote: is "bang" as slang for shooting up heroin just brit english or also amerenglish? lynne, who's never shot up heroin in america I've heard the expression used in America. Bethany, who has never shot up heroin anywhere, but who DID inhale in the 60s and slightly beyond Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA http://ljp.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 12:02:11 -0800 From: Mary Bucholtz bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GARNET.BERKELEY.EDU Subject: Research Fellowship in London FYI. RESEARCH FELLOW at THE CENTRE FOR APPLIED LINGUISTIC RESEARCH THAMES VALLEY UNIVERSITY,LONDON We wish to appoint a research fellow for the period January to July 1997 at the Centre for Applied Linguistic Research (CALR). CALR is based around a cohesive group of researchers focussing on two overlapping areas: (i) language across social,cultural and ethnic boundaries (ii) second language learning and teaching. Ideally,we would like to appoint a fellow with interests spanning both these areas. In addition to pursuing their own research,the fellow will be expected to: - contribute to the programme of weekly research seminars - write a paper for CALR Working Papers - be available for advice and consultation from time to time. There will also be some light teaching committments on the MA in English Language Teaching and the MA in Language in the Multi-cultural Community (a maximum of 40 hours over the period). The salary is negotiable. If you know anyone who is interested,could you please let us know or pass this notice on to them directly. Contacts: email: Peter.Skehan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tvu.ac.uk Ben.Rampton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tvu.ac.uk Celia.Roberts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tvu.ac.uk Or we can be contacted on the same fax number: + 181 231 2900 Dr Ben Rampton Centre for Applied Linguistic Research Thames Valley University 18-22 Bond Street London W5 5AA Tel: 0181 231 2137 Fax: 0181 231 2900 Email: ben.rampton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tvu.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 15:12:07 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: bubblers everywhere lou maris said: Of course here in Milwaukee we use the terms "bubbler" for drinking fountain. It's one way you can spot a native Milwaukeean. unless, of course, you're dealing with tourists from boston. Or Pittsburgh, I believe ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 11:01:00 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP Subject: Re: Archiving Question Natalie Maynor wrote: I would like to retract my former proposal that we make our list archives open to this company, for two reasons. One is that I have read Natalie's last two messages and she told me exactly the kinds of information I had requested, and I understand the reasons for her "no" now. The other is that I don't want to increase her work load (by making this a monitored list, etc.). I have just started a home page at the Japanese Language Research Center where I work (plug! plug!) and for the last week or so I have averaged two email questions a day (about Japanese linguistics, etc.) from people in the U.S., Australia and (today) the Channel Islands. (I'm the moron who put the part on our home page that says "contact us", so I got nobody to blame, but me.) So I'm realizing a LITTLE bit of the work Natalie has to do. I wonder if I could float one more suggestion and then I'll shut up. Is there any way we could hook up some kinda search engine tool of our own directly to the archives, so that WE could search them from the home page? That's all I want, is to be able to search those (ever-growing) archives. This might even in the end cut down on having to discuss the same topics over and over, cause we questioners could start by looking in the archives first. Danny In my rush to move from computer to shower to car to campus while ago, I don't think I ever finished answering Danny's questions. I'll make the end of the story of the history of the list brief: The end of the story is that Bill and I decided that night at SAMLA that we could try sort of a compromise -- that ADS-L could be an open list but that we wouldn't announce its creation in all the usual places like NEWLIST-L. As I mentioned earlier, it has been picked up by various index-compilers through the years since then, but so far there haven't been any problems. I think it's good to have some non-ADS members on ADS-L, especially since some of them get interested enough to join ADS. As for what Danny said about the availability of the list archives right now, it's true that they're sitting there on the web for anybody who wants to read them (all except the first year of the list's life, for which we have no archives). They're also available via gopher and anonymous ftp. Although I didn't read the announcement about the new search tool carefully, I think our inclusion in the lists it covers would bring attention some of you might not like. Because Words-L is gatewayed to usenet, its discussions are included in DejaNews, the web search tool for usenet articles. (There's a way an individual can create headers to stay out of DejaNews, btw, although sometimes that person is quoted in list replies of people who have not created the headers to stay out of it.) A web cruiser hunting for the famous net porno sometimes stumbles upon Words-L because somebody might use the word "fuck." The net cruiser might decide to hang around the list or might send direct mail to the poster of the "fuck" message -- regardless of how the word might have been used (e.g., it might have been used in a discussion of male/female differences in language use or whatever). We were once discussing on Words-L the distribution of the terms "underpants" versus "panties." I said something on that topic and ended up getting e-mail from a couple of weirdos who found it via DejaNews, weirdos who wanted to discuss underpants, not dialectal variation. And this reply is also getting too long. I need to get ready for my 8:00 class. I think I've said enough to indicate why I personally don't think ADS-L wants to be involved with the new archiving tool. But what I personally think on this topic doesn't matter. My very strong philosophy on "list ownership" is that the list owner takes care of mechanical matters only and does not try to exert any kind of "control." --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) -- Daniel Long Japanese Language Research Center Osaka Shoin Women's College 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 tel and fax +81-6-729-1831 email dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Oct 1996 21:37:00 -0500 From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: bubblers everywhere They're bubblers in Providence RI, too. dennis Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English office: 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 S. Wright Street home: 217-384-1683 Urbana, IL 61801 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Oct 1996 to 24 Oct 1996 ************************************************ There are 17 messages totalling 632 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "Vamp"; "30" (2) 2. California abbreviatin' (Ca., Cal., Calif.) 3. Archiving Question 4. bubblers everywhere -Reply 5. American epenthetic "r" (5) 6. No tickee, no washee (4) 7. Oprah and Sonya Live videos on AAVE 8. epenthetic "r" and RTFM 9. "Handy" cell phone ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 02:57:35 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "Vamp"; "30" VAMP: This word came up recently (probably among Uma Thurman PULP FICTION fans), and I have lots of stuff on the V.A.M.P.s, or volunteer firefighters. True "vamp" seekers should check out the San Francisco Chronicle, 19 January 1919, Magazine, pg. 3: What is a "VAMP"? Is She a Real Menace or Just a Pretty Joke? Why Is a Clinging Velvet Dress Under Suspicion? And Does "Vamp" Really Mean Anything as Dreadful as "Vampire" After All? By Clive Marshall ... "Vamping" What do they mean? One naturally turns to Kipling's famous poem. Probably that started the rough-house. "A rag, a bone and a band of hair"--oh, yes! She is terribly painted there--and she is called by the short syllable. Kipling surely did hit hard at the lady who goes into the vampire business. But does anybody mean anything quite so bad as that when he says "vamp"? Is a vamp a kind of diminutive of a vampire--a kind of soft version of the real thing? Is it like "pash"--a flippant allusion to the more impressive dimensions of passion? What does history do to help us? Was Cleopatra a vampire? ... Speaking of looking the part, can there be a blonde vampire? Aren't they all brunettes? (Sigh of relief from all the blondes!) Screen vamps are generally dark-haired, and dark-eyed, too. But then you can't put light eyes on the screen. There have been perfectly devilish light eyes-- However, this question may, perhaps, have to be left open. Yet there is another. How about height? At least one screen vamp is not tall--not very tall. There has to be that sinuous stuff--you can't fancy a fat vamp. But it may be that vamping can be done on very moderate inches. It depends. Maybe it depends a good deal on dressing talents. There's a way of wearing clothes--not too much of them--that somehow conveys a vamp impression. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- 30: If a "vamp" gets you, it's "30." This is also from the San Francisco Chronicle, 12 March 1919, pg. 18, cols. 6-7: WHAT "30" SIGNIFIES By frequent reference to it, noted by newspaper readers, doubtless the meaning of that cabalistic symbol "30" has become familiar to many, but this incident and explanation, printed in connection with the obsequies of Sir Wilfred Laurier make an item in the Montreal La Patrie and is thence translated: "What does that signify?" was asked by thousands who filed past the casket of Sir Wilfred Laurier and had remarked the bouquet of flowers upon which lay the symbol "30" in red figures. This floral tribute was given by members of the press gallery in the Dominion Parliament. For them this number means the same as the words which the great departed pronounced some days after being stricken by his malady: "It is ended." (C'est fini.) The origin of this conventional symbol has been lost in the traditions of journalism, but here is what the older operators declare it was: Many years ago the old Western Union Telegraph Company published a code of signs for their operators. The figure "1," for example, signified "Wait a minute"; the figure "3," the "I'm busy on a line"; the number "17," "I'm sending an important message, it ought to have precedence," and so on until finally "30" indicated the end of the message. Journalists have never been able to devise a better symbol in all the companies of the world having telegraph codes. After each night and at the end of every day the conventional "30" traversed the continent from end to end. Editors in time adopted the sign "30" to inform the staff of the various news departments and the composing room that all the "copy" was finished and that there would be nothing additional. Finally, for newspaper men, the number "30" became the symbol of the end of all things of earth, and even of life. For Sir Wilfred, the number "30" meant "It is the end." For us, who every day collect the news of the entire world, "30" signifies also "C'est fini."--Pittsburgh Dispatch. Telegraph operators did "30"? O. K.! However, the usual explanation of "30" is "xxx"--not "poison" or "kisskisskiss," but as an endnote. Who knows what is correct? I'll have to call Western Union! -30- X X X ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 03:51:35 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: California abbreviatin' (Ca., Cal., Calif.) The G. O. P. wants California. I've gotta help them abbreviate it. The following items all come from the San Francisco Chronicle. 23 February 1919, pg. E8, col. 3. WHY "CALIF" FOR "CAL"? Editor The Chronicle--Sir: From the beginning when California was named naturally the abbreviation was simply "cal." For the last few years many people write it "Calif." This looks bad. Now and then we see it written "Cala.," and along with it Colorado is written "Colo." Let us all hold on to the original abbreviation "Cal." It looks well and is easily distinguished from "Colo." A clerk in the Postoffice Department in Washington is responsible for the change from "Cal." to "Calif." It is hoped that we will go back to the original abbreviation "Cal." A PRINTER. Sacramento, February 19, 1919. 1 March 1919, pg. 18, cols. 3-4. WHY "CALIF?" Editor The Chronicle--Sir: If the people would take in consideration the handling of the mails they would understand why Calif. is an absolute necessity to distinguish from Colorado. Had the said printer received the calling down that I did from a higher-up in Washington, D. C., relative to why I didn't answer a petition in regard to a mail route, and a few days later received the same petition from Manitou, Col., where it had been opened by the P. M. there by mistake, he would understand why all people in the U. S. should use Calif. Any postal employe or postmaster would earnestly request people to distinguish Calif. Lots of mail matter is confused between these two states, and it is to be hoped the people will adhere to the use of Calif. to facilitate postal matters. ALICE DINES, Postmaster. Manton, February 25, 1919. 3 March 1919, pg. 14, col. 3. [Letter to San Miguel, California probably went to San Miguel, Colorado. The writer recommends "Calif."] 7 March 1919, pg. 18, col. 4. THE POSTMASTER SAYS "CALIF" AND "CALIF" GOES Editor The Chronicle--Sir: In a recent letter to your Safety Valve was a recommendation to use "Calif" as an abbreviation for California, because when using "Cal" or "Cala" on the mails it would be delivered for "Col" or "Colo." I always use "Cala" for said prevention, as it is a Spanish word meaning "small bay," and although the bay of San Francisco is large, it is small comparedwith the immense state of California. California became a State in the early fifties and Colorado many years later; therefore Colorado should change the contraction of its name instead of California. If Colorado would adopt "Color" there would be no possibility of mistaking its mail to California, which would prevent any misdelivery of the mail. However, I would suggest that the business men of both California and Colorado have the name of their State printed in full on all of their business stationary, as it would advertise their State. CHARLES G. MINIFIE. San Francisco, March 5, 1919. 9 March 1919, pg. E8, col. 3. SO LONG AS WE ARE NOT CALLED "CAFETERIA" ["Cal." could mean "Caledonia." Favors "Calif."] 9 March 1919, pg. E8, col. 4. AN ADVOCATE OF "CALI" [Calls Cali "just as distinctive and effective as clumsy Calif."] 16 March 1919, pg. E8, col. 3. VERBAL SOOTHING SYRUP FOR CALIFORNIANS Editor The Chronicle--Sir: Your correspondents who object to the abbreviation of "Calif" for California because it resembles the title of Oriental rulers, should have their feelings soothed by the information that Kh-a-l-i-f-a (mispronounced Calif.) in the Arabic signifies the same as prince. The Khalif is the first, the leader, the best. R. LAWRENCE WARD. Tracy, March 10, 1919. 23 March 1919, pg. E8, col. 3. CALIFORNIA IS A LONG DISTANCE FROM WASHINGTON Editor The Chronicle--Sir: Why should the department at Washington saddle the cumbersome abbreviation on us of "Calif." for California when Colorado could have been changed with so much less cause for complaint. Coldo. or Cldo. is simple and easy to write, while the abbreviation "Calif." is not only harsh but awkward to write, in that it contains a letter dropping below the line. Let us protest with all vehemence at the authority that abrogates to itself the power to label a great State against the sentiment of its people. A DEMOCRAT. Forest Hill, March 18, 1919. Cal? Calif? Ca? Cala? Cali? A Hindu goddess, a Moslem ruler--who cares? Alas., for Me., it's a Wash. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 06:19:23 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: "Vamp"; "30" barry p. notes: VAMP: This word came up recently (probably among Uma Thurman PULP FICTION fans), and I have lots of stuff on the V.A.M.P.s, or volunteer firefighters. True "vamp" seekers should check out the San Francisco Chronicle, 19 January 1919, Magazine, pg. 3: one reason why the word "vamp" came up a lot in the wake of _pulp fiction_ is that the chanel nail polish that thurman wore in it is called "vamp" and after the movie came out there was a big craze for vamp, with lots of fashion magazines (well, at least a couple that i read in the dr's ofc or someplace) doing pieces on the nail polish and celebrities who were now wearing it. also, the word is used a fair amount with reference to madonna. lynne, vamp wannabe --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 06:32:34 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Archiving Question I wonder if I could float one more suggestion and then I'll shut up. Is there any way we could hook up some kinda search engine tool of our own directly to the archives, so that WE could search them from the home page? That's all I want, is to be able to search those (ever-growing) archives. This The fact that searchable databases exist at various sites leads me to believe that the answer to your question is yes. But I don't have any idea of the technical details. I assume they involve writing some kind of search program. I meanwhile still haven't even gotten around to learning how to write perl scripts, which means I'm still compiling our ftp/gopher/web archives manually every morning. Soon we need to discuss what to do about next year (starting in late April '97) when I'm not going to be able to do these daily net tasks. Here's a quick list of changes that need to be made sometime within the next several months: (1) Can one of you take over as listowner of ADS-L? You can either do it permanently or do it temporarily until I return in May '98. (2) What should we do about updating the web pages and other files? (Do any of you ever use the ftp files, btw? We might not need them anymore.) Because maintaining these files requires an account on a machine here at MSU and because there's a university policy prohibiting non-MSU-related people from having accounts, there's no way that any other ADSer could simply take over and maintain the files. That means that the options seem to be (a) Moving everything to another site -- wherever one of you could take over and become our webmaster/gopher keeper/etc., (b) Putting a message on the web page and at the top of the first gopher and ftp pages saying that the material will not be updated between April 1997 and May 1998, (c) Putting a link on the primary web page to another site where one of you is adding new info while I'm gone (e.g., if one of you might be willing to take over for a year but not forever). Are there other solutions? (3) If any of you know perl scripting, could you write a script that would automate these tasks that I do every morning: -- get the ADS-L digest out of mail and save it with previous day's date as its name -- edit out the unnecessary headers -- move the edited file to the gopher directory and the ftp directory (I would need to tell you the paths, of course) -- make a .cap file for the gopher file (if you've never maintained gopher files, I could tell you exactly what a .cap file is) Then at the end of each month I compile all the daily files into one file for the month and move them to the appropriate directories (the parent directories of where the daily files live), making another .cap file for the new gopher file, of course. I used to have to change the ADS-L page in the web documents every month also, but then I changed it to go into the gopher directory at a level that keeps me from having to change ads-l.html every month. All I have to do is change it once a year. I know I'm forgetting things, but it seems to be turn-off-computer time again. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) P.S. Yes, everything I've mentioned could be done by telnet from Japan, which is where I'll be for the year. No, I can't do that. I will be paying by the minute for online time and for the phone call to connect with the ISP and therefore need to keep the time I spend on net activities as short as possible. I will also be traveling off and on throughout the year. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 12:00:19 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: bubblers everywhere -Reply Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU 10/24/96, 09:37pm They're bubblers in Providence RI, too. And babblers here. Like me. :-)\ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 13:26:45 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: American epenthetic "r" The following appeared on the LINGUIST list (#7.1493). Please do NOT reply to me. -------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 19:16:04 EDT From: Zman890[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com Subject: the American epenthetic "r" Dear fellow linguists, I am desperately searching for information about the epenthetic "r" found in words like "warsh" (wash) and Warshington (Washington). I know that this phenomena is only found in certain American dialects (perhaps in Northern California, Oregon, and Idaho), however that is as much as I have been able to find. I would really appreciate any anecdotal, as well as quantitative information concerning this linguistic variation. Thank you in advance, Jennifer van Vorst Portland State ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 13:31:50 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: No tickee, no washee An item in LINGUIST #7.1499 put me in mind of the old line "No tickee, no washee", i.e. "If you don't have a ticket, you don't get the clean laundry back". I learned it as a fixed phrase with no context; presumably it originated with reference to the turn-of-the-century stock figure of the "Chinese laundryman". Was it a punch line that outlived the joke, like "That was no lady, that was my wife"? (I remember as a child puzzling over the latter, and over a period of years reconstructing the original from allusions and take-offs that all presumed the reader/listener's familiarity with the original.) Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 11:15:20 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: No tickee, no washee Sorry, I can't help with the origin, but the variant I grew up with was "No tickee, no shirtee." Peter McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, OR ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 14:15:12 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: No tickee, no washee I've actually used this line (in Mark's rather than Peter's 'no shirtee' variant) precisely to illustrate the conditional, as opposed to conjunctional, interpretation of the "no X, no Y" construction. Here's the relevant passage, for anyone who might be interested: The formula 'No X, no Y' may be filled in--depending on context and contour--either conjunctively or conditionally: (40)a. No retreat, no surrender. No smoking, No drinking. (P & Q) b. No pain, no gain. No tickee, no washee. (P-- Q) Even here, the context is paramount in determining context [oops, that should have been "content"]: 'No vegetables, no dessert' will be taken as a conditional or a conjunction depending on whether it's uttered as a parent's warning or a maitre d's apology. But the sign posted on the Yale commons cafeteria door reproduced in (41) must first be assigned a conditional content; only at the bottom does this content get erased and replaced by that of a loony conjunction. (41) NO SHIRT, NO SHOES NO SERVICE ALSO -- NO SKATES (This appears in "The Said and the Unsaid", SALT II (1992), p. 186, in the context of a discussion of retroactive accomodation in which I also consider the behavior of Retro-NOT.) This said, I really have no idea to what extent other languages exploit this ambiguity/indeterminacy. But I understand that positive statements of the form "P...Q." can be interpreted as conditionals in many languages, including Chinese, where the disambiguation (cf. You want it...You got it.) is typically provided by intonation and pause duration. I wonder if this is discussed in depth somewhere. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 14:34:28 -0400 From: Barbara Nelson BDN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SOFTBREW.COM Subject: Re: American epenthetic "r" I know someone who was born and raised in Oklahoma who says warsh. She left there at about 20 and has lived in several other places in the US but has not lost that "r". She also pronounces "uncle" differently than I have heard before. Can't describe it as none of the "Os" listed in FAQ quite fit. At 01:26 PM 10/25/96 -0500, you wrote: The following appeared on the LINGUIST list (#7.1493). Please do NOT reply to me. -------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 19:16:04 EDT From: Zman890[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com Subject: the American epenthetic "r" Dear fellow linguists, I am desperately searching for information about the epenthetic "r" found in words like "warsh" (wash) and Warshington (Washington). I know that this phenomena is only found in certain American dialects (perhaps in Northern California, Oregon, and Idaho), however that is as much as I have been able to find. I would really appreciate any anecdotal, as well as quantitative information concerning this linguistic variation. Thank you in advance, Jennifer van Vorst Portland State Barbara Nelson E-Mail bdn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]softbrew.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 14:36:12 -0400 From: Barbara Nelson BDN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SOFTBREW.COM Subject: Re: American epenthetic "r" PS She does not say "Warshington". Maybe because she lived on DC for a few years in her early 20s? At 01:26 PM 10/25/96 -0500, you wrote: The following appeared on the LINGUIST list (#7.1493). Please do NOT reply to me. -------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 19:16:04 EDT From: Zman890[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com Subject: the American epenthetic "r" Dear fellow linguists, I am desperately searching for information about the epenthetic "r" found in words like "warsh" (wash) and Warshington (Washington). I know that this phenomena is only found in certain American dialects (perhaps in Northern California, Oregon, and Idaho), however that is as much as I have been able to find. I would really appreciate any anecdotal, as well as quantitative information concerning this linguistic variation. Thank you in advance, Jennifer van Vorst Portland State Barbara Nelson E-Mail bdn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]softbrew.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 15:22:49 -0400 From: Marie Nigro NIGRO[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LU.LINCOLN.EDU Subject: Re: American epenthetic "r" The epenthetic "r" is also found in areas of western PA. Marie Nigro Lincoln University,PA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 15:17:17 EDT From: Sonja Lanehart LANEHART[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Oprah and Sonya Live videos on AAVE I've been trying for a while to purchase copies of an Oprah episode and a Sonya Live episode in which AAVE was the topic of interest for various reasons. I saw the Oprah episode when it first appeared and have seen it since several times. I have never seen the Sonya Live episode. I only found out about it when I had one of my grad R.A.s doing some database searches for me. The Oprah episode I'm interested in purchasing is, rooughly titled, "Standard English and the So-Called Black English." It aired November 1987. The Sonya Live episode (a show that was replaced with Talkback Live), from what I have gathered so far, was about Eleanor Wilson Orr's book _Twice As Less_. Orr and Geneva Smitherman were 2 (if not all) of the guests. It is Program #46 and aired 5 May 1992. If there is anyone who might know of other ways I can purchase this tape I would be most grateful. I didn't realize either would be so difficult to obtain. I have anxious students who want to see both videos (I'm teaching a separate grad and undergrad course entitled "Language Use in the African American Community") before classes end at the end of November. If you have any helpful information, please e-mail me at: lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu *********************************************************************** Sonja L. Lanehart Dept. of English (300 Park Hall) Phone: (706) 542-2260 University of Georgia Fax: (706) 542-2181 Athens, GA 30602-6205 E-mail: Lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu *********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 17:06:23 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: epenthetic "r" and RTFM I don't know (can't tell from the headers I see) whether people are mailing their comments on epenthetic "r" to the questioner, who I'm sure would welcome them, or not. She is Zman890[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, and doesn't read this list (or she would have posted the question here herself). Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 14:49:02 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: "Handy" cell phone I have just learned that the German word for celular phone (an item that was little known the last time I was in a daily German-speaking environment) is "Handy". This was reported by a native speaker of German living in the U.S., who heard it from another native speaker, who is Austrian. There was mutual perplexity: in the one direction, at what the Austrian was talking about, and in the other direction, that anyone who spoke both German and English wouldn't understand this obvious, everyday word. I don't know whether this is a Scheinentlehnung (=false borrowing? like "Twen" by analogy with "Teen") that arose in a contemporary German language that is saturated with real borrowings from English, or perhaps a brand name that became generic, or whether it may be a genuine borrowing from British English. My query to the list is: Are there any Brits out there who can tell me whether this term is in use in Britain? Peter McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, OR ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 22:49:41 +1608 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: American epenthetic "r" The following appeared on the LINGUIST list (#7.1493). Please do NOT reply to me. -------------------------------------------- I am desperately searching for information about the epenthetic "r" found in words like "warsh" (wash) and Warshington (Washington). I know that this phenomena is only found in certain American dialects (perhaps in Northern California, Oregon, and Idaho), however that is as much as I have been able to find. I would really appreciate any anecdotal, as well as quantitative information concerning this linguistic variation. Thank you in advance, Jennifer van Vorst Portland State --------------------- I'm replying to the List with a copy to Zman, because I think ADS people will be interested in my response. -- DML --------------------- This item has come up in lots of discussions, even on ADS-L if I'm not mistaken, but I'm not in the mood at present to do any digging for sources. But I did think of Tom Murray's data in THE LANGUAGE OF ST LOUIS, MISSOURI: VARIATION IN THE GATEWAY CITY (Peter Lang, 1968). Murray cites interesting local evidence: signs in laundromats (p. 17). In one case, a "would-be grammarian" corrected a sign saying "warsher don't work" by changing the verb to "doesn't" with no indication that the correctionist found anything amiss in the identity of the machine that didn't work. Murray has a table (p. 18) summarizing data he collected in St Louis: Table 3 CONDITIONED VARIATION OF INTRUSIVE [r] (as in 'wash') context in which heard socio-econ class informal midformal formal % no. % no. % no. upper 83 1446 68 1185 39 669 middle 92 1657 76 1369 52 937 lower 99 1766 82 1463 68 1213 It is interesting that this phonological bit of Americana, known by dialectologists as an Ohio Valley phenomenon (but not limited to this area), is also thought by someone to exist to some extent (primarily?) in CA, OR, ID. My students from St. Louis would always mention this "awful" pronunciation when I would ask about features of St Louis speech; they hung their heads in shame for not being to erase it from their phonological systems -- only they thought it was a feature of a single lexical item rather than a phonological rule in their heads/behavior. I've always suspected it was more widespread than limited dialectological reports have suggested. When the last volume of DARE comes out we'll probably get a nice map and a better answer than we had before. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Oct 1996 22:55:04 +1608 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: No tickee, no washee interpretation of the "no X, no Y" construction. Also in the affirmative: You say that one more time, I'll tell your mother! You hit me, I'll hit you back! You vote for Perot, you get Clinton. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Oct 1996 to 25 Oct 1996 ************************************************ There are 8 messages totalling 257 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. A whole nother _nother_ 2. No tickee, no washee (fwd) 3. Arthur the Rat 4. American epenthetic "r" 5. A few questions from an interested student . . . (2) 6. QUERY 7. Sea change on the Internet ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 09:41:05 -0500 From: "Thomas J. Creswell" creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET Subject: A whole nother _nother_ -- [ From: Thomas J. Creswell * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- I realize the _nother_ thread has now gone to Archive, but I ran across the following the other day and thought it might be of interest. Notice especially the "scare" quotes: Satellite DNA is, as they say, a "whole 'nother" story waiting to be told. Stephen Jay Gould. "What Happens in Bodies" in _Hen's Teeth and Horse's Tails_, Norton, NY, p. 168. OED1 has _nother_ as both adj. and pron., with earliest cite in the 9th century, W3 also has both adj and pron uses; etymology: misdivision from _an other_ or _none other_. In modern use, according to NSOED, the expression "a whole nother" is of 20th century US origin. Tom Creswell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 12:00:22 EDT From: Brad Grissom BGRISSOM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UKCC.UKY.EDU Subject: No tickee, no washee (fwd) Forwarded from another list: According to the -Dictionary of American Proverbs- the earliest recorded citation of this expression is in Archer Taylor's -The Proverb- (1931). But here's all he has to say there: ... A few instances will show how erroneous is Tylor's notion that the age of proverb-making is past. "We can collect and use the old proverbs," he says, "but making new ones has become a feeble, spiritless imitation, like our attempts to invent new myths or new nursery rhymes." Certainly -Put up or shut up!- possesses as much vitality as can be demanded of a proverb, and from the metaphor we can safely conclude that it is not many generations old. -No tickee, no washee-, i.e. 'without the essential prerequisite, a desired object cannot be obtained,' with its evident allusion to the Chinese laundryman, bespeaks for itself a still more recent origin. Mencken, in -The American Language-, renders the "pungent proverb" as "No tickee, no shirtee," and reminds us that although Chinese lexical items are scarce in the English language, this remnant of the early waves of Chinese immigration certainly counts for a great deal. The Chinese laundry phenomenon is described by Ronald Takaki in -Strangers from a Different Shore: A History of Asian Americans- (1989). Pushed out of other occupations, Chinese men retreated into laundry work to such an extent that, by 1900, one in four employed Chinese males in the United States was a laundryman, a livelihood that did not exist in their native country. Lee Chew, who came to America in the early 1860s, describes (in -The Life Stories of Undistinguished Americans as Told by Themselves- [1906]) some of the conditions that existed in the rougher milieus: "We had to put up with many insults and some frauds, as men would come in and claim parcels that did not belong to them, saying they had lost their tickets, and would fight if they did not get what they asked for.... We made plenty of money in gold dust, but had a hard time, for many of the miners were wild men who carried revolvers and after drinking would come into our place to shoot and steal shirts." Is it then any wonder that Sing Fong, in the Western movie -Tex Rides with the Boy Scouts- (1937), explains to a claimless customer: "You bling tickee, you catchem washee." Listen to the WAV file at http://www.lava.net/~mem/paas.html ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 12:50:57 -0400 From: ALICE FABER faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU Subject: Arthur the Rat A colleague of mine not on this list has asked me to post the following query: Can anyone provide a citation to a source for the complete text of the "Arthur the Rat" passage? You can reply directly to him (Leigh Lisker: llisker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.upenn.edu) or to me (faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haskins.yale.edu). Thanks very much. Alice Faber ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 13:08:52 -0400 From: "Christopher R. Coolidge" ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ZOO.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: American epenthetic "r" On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, Mark Mandel wrote: The following appeared on the LINGUIST list (#7.1493). Please do NOT reply to me. -------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Oct 1996 19:16:04 EDT From: Zman890[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com Subject: the American epenthetic "r" Dear fellow linguists, I am desperately searching for information about the epenthetic "r" found in words like "warsh" (wash) and Warshington (Washington). I know that this phenomena is only found in certain American dialects (perhaps in Northern California, Oregon, and Idaho), however that is as much as I have been able to find. I would really appreciate any anecdotal, as well as quantitative information concerning this linguistic variation. Thank you in advance, Jennifer van Vorst Portland State My wife's Aunt Jackie's from Bloomington, IN, and she says "warsh." So, I hear, do other Hoosiers. In her area, anyway. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 15:45:34 EDT From: bruce taylor 76504.1330[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: A few questions from an interested student . . . I am a student at the University of Massachusetts-Amherst. I'm currently taking a course called History of the English Language which is taught by Miss Duckert, an ADS member. I disovered your listserv address while reading through some ADS Newsletters in the library. I have a few questions that I'm hoping I can get a little input on from listmembers. 1) Has anyone heard the word "lowery" used to mean lurking, dark and sinister (as in 'a lowery sky' before a storm) 2) Where you live, what do you call the strip of land between the sidewalk and the street, if anything? 3) Does ADS have a webpage or list of FAQ's somewhere that might be useful to me? Also, any suggestions regarding other lists/webpages that deal with dialect or words in general? I'd appreciate any input or suggestions I could get on the questions above. ________________________________________ Christine Palmer Taylor, Univ. of Mass.-Amherst, 76504.1330[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 15:27:00 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: A few questions from an interested student . . . 3) Does ADS have a webpage or list of FAQ's somewhere that might be http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/ADS/ --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 20:18:21 -0400 From: Toni Buzzeo buzzeocyll[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIX-NET.NET Subject: QUERY I posted a private email to Natalie who graciously suggested that I post the query to this list as well. As I am not a list subscriber, I would ask anyone who has an answer to my question to please respond privately to my email address. I am a children's author living and writing in Maine. My current project is a picture book that revolves around varying tooth loss rituals from around the world. The grandmother of each of my protagonist's friends tells her the ritual from her country or region of origin. The children address the Taiwanese Grandmother as Ah-ma, the German Grandmother as Oma, etc. My question is this. Is there a common form of address among Southern African Americans for Grandmother? Someone has suggested Big Ma and someone else Grandmary, but I have had no confirmation of either. Do any of you know if there is a colloquial form of address? Thank you for any help you can offer. Toni Buzzeo buzzeocyll[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mix-net.net ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Oct 1996 20:16:46 -0500 From: "Albert E. Krahn" krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US Subject: Sea change on the Internet Dennis said: From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: a taste of mla Dear ADSers: I am interested in the issue of the increased demand for standards of behavior (linguistic, social, digital) on email, listservs, and newsgroups--in fact I'm doing a paper on it at the ADS MLA in a session. ----------- I can't get to the session you're presenting this at, Dennis, but I can put down a few lines for your database. I certainly see some changes in online (on-line Online On-line OL on line On line) behavior since I logged on in mid-1993. I recall that there was a greater rift between the oldies (who had logged on a few months earlier) and the newbies. They seemed to fall into two piles, the Crankshaft (cf. the comic strip) types, who joyed in insulting newbies and would tell them to rtfm and flame them in myriad manners, and the Marian the Librarian types, who would spend endless electrons helping others over tiny barriers in a very polite way. Certainly, the electronic culture is wide and varied. I was on one list until recently which was about as "no nonsense" as you can get. It was like entering an all-male machine shop with girlie calendars on the walls. It was all business, and the rhetoric was plain and to the point, with a touch of "we are special because we are more experienced and know something that a lot of others on line don't know" about it. Indeed, every list I'm on has a different flavor. It seems to derive from a combination of the topic, the time the participants have been on line, how much they have interacted in person as well as virtually, and how they have been educated. Add some more of your own observations into the formula. I spent some time on a moderated list and felt stifled, despite the generous benevolence of the list owner, and finally unsubbed. On most lists I have been on in the last year I have not seen an emoticon. They seem to have lost their cachet on serious lists peopled by oldies. I've seen less of FAQs and netiquettes lately though certain lists could benefit from them still. Also, lists seem to have certain behaviors because of their relative permanence while newsgroups seem to be more hit and run and tolerate a greater quantity of less-than-perfect behavior. That's enough for now. Maybe more later. For discussions of those finer details of punctuation, see below. akra Al Krahn Milwaukee Area Technical College 700 W. State St. Milwaukee WI 53233 414 /W297-6519/F297-7990/H476-4025 Owner PUNCT-L : a mailing list for discussing punctuation. Send for subscription instructions. krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]milwaukee.tec.wi.us !()":;'?.,!-!()-'";:?.,!-)("':;?.,!-)('";:?.,!-_)("':;?.,!_-)("':;?.,!-) ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Oct 1996 to 26 Oct 1996 ************************************************ There are 8 messages totalling 313 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Z-Texas 2. Z-Tejas: Querying with a Foreign Accent 3. "Nothing special" 4. "The Boss"; other stuff 5. "NO TICKEE, NO SHIRTEE!"--an antedate 6. A few questions from an interested student . . . 7. University of Tennessee Martin seek Asst. Prof. 8. Multiple Personality and Dialect/Language Variation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 07:48:40 -0600 From: Salikoko Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Z-Texas One evening in Las Vegas, a group of us linguists were looking for a restaurant called "Z-Texas". After a while we decided to stop and ask for more information. I approached a doorman in front of one of the casinos and asked whether he knew where Z-Texas was. He said it was upstairs. I could not contain my surprise and observed that we had been told that it was on Flamingo Street--this Casino was on a different street. He replied: "Didn't you ask for the Steakhouse?" I knew I probably do not say "the" natively, but I did not know I could not say "house" natively either. Well, we finally rode a cab to Z-Texas and started our dinner very amused not only by the incident but also by the fact that the definite article at the beginning of several entrees on the menu was represented by "Z". One also asks for "Z-restroom". Have a nice Sunday. Sali. *************************************************** Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu University of Chicago (312)702-8531 Department of Linguistics Fax: (312)834-0924 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637, USA *************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 09:11:30 -0600 From: Salikoko Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Z-Tejas: Querying with a Foreign Accent This is a revision of my earlier posting in which I mistakenly substituted the phonetic symbol [x] for the letter "j" in the English rendition of the sound. Hope you see the other funny part of the story now. One evening in Las Vegas, a group of us linguists were looking for a restaurant called "Z-Tejas". After a while we decided to stop and ask for more information. I approached a doorman in front of one of the casinos and asked whether he knew where Z-Tejas was. He said it was upstairs. I could not contain my surprise and observed that we had been told that it was on Flamingo Street--this Casino was on a different street. He replied: "Didn't you ask for the Steakhouse?" I knew I probably do not say "the" natively, but I did not know I could not say "house" natively either. Well, we finally rode a cab to Z-Tejas and started our dinner very amused not only by the incident but also by the fact that the definite article at the beginning of several entrees on the menu was represented by "Z". One also asks for "Z-restroom". Have a nice Sunday. Sali. *************************************************** Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu University of Chicago (312)702-8531 Department of Linguistics Fax: (312)834-0924 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637, USA *************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 13:32:38 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "Nothing special" Dana Carvey hosted Saturday Night Live last night. Isn't that special? This is from the New-York Mirror and Ladies' Literary Gazette, 23 September 1826, pg. 70, col. 1: _"Nothing special"_--This is the most _fashionable_ expression in town--Every _gentleman_ of _importance_ has it! If a person inquires "What news this morning, sir?" "Nothing special" is the answer. If you are asked "What the last arrivals bring?" (no matter whether you know any thing about them or not) "nothing special" is all that you are required to utter to satisfy the person who addresses you. Meeting a learned and celebrated professor of medicine in the street the other day, (who, by-the-bye, has contracted the practice of using this sentence on all occasions--can you take a hint, doctor?) we asked him "If he had heard Signorina sing?"--but before we had named the song to which we referred, he answered "nothing special!" We asked another "what reason he had for for abusing Cooper's Damon?" "Nothing special." Now the reader will perceive that these words are made use of without any regard being paid to their meaning, which renders them, as the Bob Logics have it, "_quite a bore_". We hear them so frequently, that we are compelled to avoid asking an acquaintance the news, or where he resides, for fear of "nothing special." The use of this expression has become so annoying recently that we are induced thus publicly to notice it, with the hope, we confess, of eradicating a custom which would "be more honoured in the breach than the observance." We know of but one remedy for this _disease_, (if we may be allowed the expression00and what expression is not allowed in this enlightened age?) which we most _seriously_ recommend to the public: In the first place, let _every_ person subscribe for the New-York Mirror, (always _paying_ for it in advance, otherwise the _charm_ possibly may fail,) and then in the second place, let it be read thoroughly every week, and if it don't always furnish _"something special"_ to interest the feelings and refine the taste, we will acknowledge that we know nothing about the matter. Give our _prescription_ a year's trial, (it will cost less than a bottle of many quack medicines,) and if the _patient_, whoever he be, is not completely cured of --"nothing special," his case is hopeless. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:37:40 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "The Boss"; other stuff George Steinbrenner, like Bruce Springsteen, is THE BOSS. This is from The Brooklyn Daily Times, 3 May 1856, pg. 2, col. 2: THE AMERICAN IDIOM ...The long sound of "i" in "genuine," "engine," &c., and the shortening of the same sound in the middle syllable of the word "inquiry," do not escape remark. So with the indiscriminate use of "fix," "guess," "calculate," &c. To the infusion of Dutch blood in the locality of New York is attributed the words "stoop" and "boss," the latter being derived from the Batavian _baas_, a master workman. ... And this is from the San Francisco Bulletin, 24 May 1906, pg. 6, col. 5: WHAT "BOSS" MEANS. A South African correspondent of the London Spectator, Ernest H. S. Schwartz, of the Rhodes University College, figures out that the word "boss" may mean Vulcan, the blacksmith god of mythology. The Egyptians called Vulcan "Obas," as indeed Cicero mentions. To this day the Hottentot addresses his Boer employer as "ou baas," and the oldest son as "ou baas." But "ou baas" is a term of respect generally. Says Mr. Schwartz: "I have so frequently come across classical customs among the natives of South Africa that to me the connection does not seem improbable. I have seen the wailing for the dead Adonis among the Basutos performed as ceremoniously as among the ancient Greeks, while some of the folklore tales of this nation, given by Cassalis, can be paralleled, incident for incident, with some of the Greek tales, which in many instances were borrowed from the Egyptians. I should explain that I am thinking of the god Obas (Vulcan) not as the blacksmith of later mythology, but as the very essence of supreme being ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------- PERSONAL MATTERS: I did not hear back from the Chicago Historical Society on my paper on the origin of the "Windy City." It was sent in July, and I was told to wait eight weeks. So I'm still unsure if I'll meet y'all in Chicago in December. The American Political Items Collectors (APIC) magazine still hasn't come out. "O. K." was announced in the last issue for the next one. Next postings here should be "Origin of the Marathon" (the NYC Marathon is this Sunday--I'm gathering together my Athens Gazette clippings from 400 B. C. :-) ); "New York's Finest (police), Bravest (fire), Strongest (sanitation), and Boldest (corrections)," "soap," "soft soap," and "no soap!"; and the "Origin of Jazz." The Wednesday after the election (Nov. 6), I go before the City Council's Parks Committee for a permanent sign blade reading "Big Apple Way" for Broadway and West 54th Street, right next to David Letterman's place in the Ed Sullivan Theater. A plaque was put up last May on the Ameritania Hotel at this site, and the street sign should have been done simultaneously. The measure was unanimously approved by the local community board, and Councilman Thomas Duane's office has taken a year to simply bring it before a city council committee. When The New York Post ran a story about this over a year ago, it began "Poor Barry Popik..." I'll tell the City Council Committee that Charles Gillette, the NYC Conventional & Visitors Bureau President who revived "the Big Apple" in 1970, DIED LAST DECEMBER! Perhaps the city council will recognize my name in the Voters Guide under a statement endorsing term limits--which these idiots thoroughly deserve and were voted in three years ago (the city council president is trying to change the existing law, and unfortunately, its confusing the voters and it might be successful). And then, after I tell them of my pathetic five-year struggle (and resist the urge to personally strangle everyone in the room), I'll quietly, calmly, read this letter, which was sent to me by a sportswriter who is enshrined in the Baseball Hall of Fame: Jan. 14, 1996 Dear Mr. Popik, My name is Shirley Povich, and I joined The Washington Post in 1922, first as a city room reporter and then sports writer, sports editor and columnist. I am now ninety. Ostensibly I retired in 1974, but it seems I have been behind in my work every (sic) since, having written a column for The Post last Sunday. Your letter to The Post asking if perchance if perchance (sic) anybody here had knowledge of James V. FitzGerald, it was referred to me. I am pleased to tell you that I worked for James FitzGerald as a reporter in 1922-23 and then became a sports writer. He was then city editor. May I say, too, he was my great benefactor. I was directed to The Post's city room to find a job in 1922 when this bewildered 17-year-old was suddenly recognized and hugged by Mr. FitzGerald, who was the city editor. He knew me as a boy in Bar Harbor, Maine, when he came there to play golf with the publisher, Edward B. McLean, for whom I caddied, and on occasion I caddied for Mr. FitzGerald. He adjusted my hours so I could attend Georgetown University. I knew he used to be a sports writer, but I am not certain that he ever became Managing Editor, if so, briefly. but we were good friends and I had great admiration for him. I recall that he leter did public relations for Georgetown. I was aware, too, of his brother, John (we called him Jack) FitzGerald, who was probably the finest racing writer of his time (N.Y. Telegraph), and I encountered him often at the tracks. Like James V., Jack FitzGerald was also very literate and a cut above the other racing writers of that era. His Big Apple Column was so well known and well-read. Unlike James V. he was a rotund chap and a fine story teller who was not averse to bellying up to a bard. I find it most fascinating that he was responsible for affixing Big Apple to the Big Apple. On my next visit to the Big Apple I will take delight in strolling the soutwest corner of 54th and Broadway and contemplating the story of Jack FitzGerald and his new immortality. I trust that some of this information has been helpful to you. Sincerely, Shirley Povich (signed) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 14:57:00 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "NO TICKEE, NO SHIRTEE!"--an antedate The earliest citation had been 1931. This is from The Brooklyn Times, 29 July 1886, pg. 2, col. 2: "NO TICKEE, NO SHIRTEE!" The New York Board of Aldermen, having been shorn of its powers for good or evil in other directions, is naturally exercising its activity in new and strange ways. Yesterday, for instance, the following startling resolution was passed: _Resolved_, That hereafter all proprietors of Chinese laundries, in giving receipts for the reception of goods left to be laundried in their respective establishments shall, in writing such receipts, use either the English language or the language understood and spoken by the person to whom every such receipt is given, under a penalty of $10 for every violation of the provisions of this resolution. A Chinaman who should have Irish, German, Bohemian, French, and Russian customers would need to be something of a linguist to make out checks which all customers could understand. The resolution was introduced by Alderman Robert Lang, who if report be true had eleven laundry checks in his hat when it blew overboard on a recent trip to Long Branch, thereby causing him to lose twenty-two shirts and other articles in proportion. And yet the rule "no tickee, no washee" is a perfectly good and vaild one, which is paralleled in many other lines of business besides that of cleansing Aldermanic linen. If Alderman Lang's head was swelled so that his hat wouldn't stay on, that surely wasn't the fault of the eleven industrious Chinamen. Of course such an ordinance won't hold water if any Chinaman has gumption enough to make a test case of it even if Mayor Grace don't veto it which he doubtless will. But the asinine qualities which occasionally come to the surface even in a New York Alderman were never better illustrated than by this resolution. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 17:21:09 -0500 From: Tom Beckner TMBECKNER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAYLORU.EDU Subject: Re: A few questions from an interested student . . . re: the strip of land between the sidewalk and the street is called a "tree lawn" in northern Indiana. I also have heard some call it a "park." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 20:30:46 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: University of Tennessee Martin seek Asst. Prof. The following comes from a colleague at UT Martin (please do NOT reply to me): ----- The University of Tennessee at Martin invites applications for the following position: English: One tenure-track Assistant Professor position in Linguistics, British Renaissance lit., or Modern American lit. Position begins August 1997. 12 hour load. PhD in English or Linguistics req. All applicants must be committed to teaching composition and have demonstrated ability in the area of specialization. Ability to teach technical writing desirable. Send letter and c.v. to Daniel Pigg, Search Committee Chair, Department of English, University of Tennessee at Martin, Martin, TN 38238, by December 2, 1996, when initial screening will begin, but applications will be accepted until the position is filled. UTM is an EEO/AA/Title VI/Title IX/ Section 504/ADA/ADEA employer and encourages applications from women and minorities. ___________________________ Daniel F. Pigg Department of English University of Tennessee at Martin Martin, TN 38238 ph. 901-587-7284 e-mail: danielp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utm.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Oct 1996 21:14:43 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Multiple Personality and Dialect/Language Variation I am seeking items, published or unpublished, on research into variation in language (at the level of dialect of language) as used by different "personalities" of a "multiple." I'll be glad to summarize to the list. Thanks, Bethany Dumas Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA http://ljp.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Oct 1996 to 27 Oct 1996 ************************************************ There are 16 messages totalling 532 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Hanged / Hung; Mr. Right (3) 2. Multiple Personality and Dialect/Language Variation 3. text query (2) 4. text query-American Language 5. A few questions from an interested student . . . -Reply (2) 6. Hanged / Hung; Mr. Right -Reply 7. No subject given 8. E-Mail Addresses 9. American epenthetic "r" 10. American epenthetic "r" -Reply (and RT(F)M(A)) 11. "don't" with 3rd-sg subj (was: NO TICKEE, NO SHIRTEE 12. A few questions from an interested student . . . ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 02:36:51 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Hanged / Hung; Mr. Right HANGED / HUNG: Hanged / Hung was discussed a few days ago. The following brief abstract is from "THE FEDERAL LANGUAGE" (BEING A CHAPTER ON AMERICANISMS) by Richard Grant White, Galaxy magazine, November 1877, pp. 686-687. It's wonderful--absolutely check the whole thing out: HUNG. HANGED. ... The points here are, that English speakers and writers say that men who are strangled, or who strangle themselves by hanging, are hanged; that the same writers say that articles--inanimate things which are suspended--are hung; and that Americans say that strangled people are hung. ... That point is settled. It is clear that in England great offenders are _hanged_, and that to say that they are _hung_ is a gross and abominable Americanism. ... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------- MR. RIGHT: Comedian Ellen DeGeneres is in a tv sitcom called ELLEN, and her character is rumored to be a lesbian. DeGeneres also starred in a recent movie called MR. WRONG. If she's still looking for Mr. Right, she need look no further than right here. I did "G. O. P." a few days ago--I've gotta be Mr. "Right"! "Mr. Right" has two lives--one in 1840 and one in the 1940s-1950s. The second life is too far apart from the first one to be connected. I consider the more recent Mr. Right to be part of Mr. Coffee, Mr. Donut, Miss Perfect, etc. I found an essay on "Mr. Right" in the Harvard Lampoon of 1952. The first "Mr. Right," however, should still be noted for historical purposes. It can be found in THE CYCLOPAEDIA OF BRITISH SONG, VOL. II (1840), pp. 30-32: SWEET MISTER RIGHT! (AIR.--_Mrs. Goose_.) ... Mr. Right! Mr. Right! O sweet Mr. Right! The girls find they're wrong when they find Mr. Right. There's some love the young and the young love the old, There's some love for love, and some love for gold. Many pretty young girls get hold of a fright, And all their excuse is--I've found Mr. Right. ... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 07:53:01 -0500 From: "Christopher R. Coolidge" ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ZOO.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: Hanged / Hung; Mr. Right "There goes the runner... he SLUD into third base!" -Dizzy Dean They say, the dirt durn near drug him down... -Bert and I ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:41:14 -0500 From: hdry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EMUNIX.EMICH.EDU Subject: Re: Multiple Personality and Dialect/Language Variation I am seeking items, published or unpublished, on research into variation in language (at the level of dialect of language) as used by different "personalities" of a "multiple." I'll be glad to summarize to the list. There was a paper on this at the Georgetown Roundtable last year, in the parasession on Computer-Mediated Communication. I don't have the presenter's name, but Susan Herring, who organized the session, could probably tell you who it was. Herring's email is susan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utafll.uta.edu Good luck! -helen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:08:16 -0600 From: Gregory Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: text query I'm teaching a course for the first time next semester--"The American Language." It's a no pre-requisite introductory course, the first half of which will deal with history of the English language, and the second will be devoted to English in North America--more or less an intro to regional/social dialects here. Does anyone have an text suggestions--especially for the dialect portion of the course, but I'm also open to suggestions for the HotEL portion. I understand Wolfram's "Dialects and American English" is out of print--I had been planning on using it, but now am somewhat perplexed. Thank you in advance for any and all suggestions. Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.iit.edu Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:37:13 -0500 From: Mary Brown Zeigler engmez[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANTHER.GSU.EDU Subject: Re: text query-American Language I teach a similar course and have used a combination of texts and some personally generated handouts. Milward for the HEL Early MOdern English portion, Dillard"s History of American English--with my help-- for some hard to find examples and source info (even though Dillard has not been easy for students to read), Wolfram's book (our bookstore has managed to find copies) and Lawrrence Davis English Dialectology Mary B. Zeigler Georgia State University Department of English mzeigler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gsu.edu Atlanta, GA 30303 (404) 651-2900 On Mon, 28 Oct 1996, Gregory Pulliam wrote: I'm teaching a course for the first time next semester--"The American Language." It's a no pre-requisite introductory course, the first half of which will deal with history of the English language, and the second will be devoted to English in North America--more or less an intro to regional/social dialects here. Does anyone have an text suggestions--especially for the dialect portion of the course, but I'm also open to suggestions for the HotEL portion. I understand Wolfram's "Dialects and American English" is out of print--I had been planning on using it, but now am somewhat perplexed. Thank you in advance for any and all suggestions. Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.iit.edu Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:49:30 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: A few questions from an interested student . . . -Reply bruce taylor 76504.1330[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM 10/26/96, 02:45pm 1) Has anyone heard the word "lowery" used to mean lurking, dark and sinister (as in 'a lowery sky' before a storm) Haven't heard this, but it sounds like a variant of "lowering" (which I have only ever read, not heard). _Am.Her.Dictionary_ gives "lower"1 (rhyming with "sour") as: 1. To look angry, sullen, or threatening. See Synonyms at "frown". 2. To appear dark or threatening, such as the sky. 2) Where you live, what do you call the strip of land between the sidewalk and the street, if anything? I don't know a *vernacular* name for it, but I have learned the allegedly technical word "berm". This may have been from my father, who grew up in NYC but was in WW2 and then traveled all over the country for the Agriculture Dept before I was born; we lived in Westchester County, NY, just north of NYC. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:59:01 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Hanged / Hung; Mr. Right -Reply Do you mean that a search has been made of the intervening century (1840 - 1940s) for evidence of "Mr. Right" in that period, and none found? Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Barry A. Popik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 10/28/96, 02:36am MR. RIGHT: "Mr. Right" has two lives--one in 1840 and one in the 1940s-1950s. The second life is too far apart from the first one to be connected. I consider the more recent Mr. Right to be part of Mr. Coffee, Mr. Donut, Miss Perfect, etc. I found an essay on "Mr. Right" in the Harvard Lampoon of 1952. The first "Mr. Right," however, should still be noted for historical purposes. ... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 11:24:13 -0600 From: Leslie Abadie leslie-abadie[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIOWA.EDU Subject: No subject given Suscribe Leslie Abadie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 14:18:11 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: E-Mail Addresses If you are an editor of one of the following dictionaries or if you know the e-mail address of an editor of one of the following dictionaries, I would appreciate receiving a private post from you to wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu Chambers English Dictionary Collins Concise Dictionary Collins Dictionary Concise Oxford Dictionary Longman Dictionary Longman Guardian New Words Longman Register of New Words New New Words Dictionary Oxford English Dictionary Reader's Digest Great Illustrated Dictionary 12,000 Words Webster's New World Dictionary Websters' nth New Collegiate Dictionary Webster's Third New International Dictionary World Book Dictionary If you are on a list more likely to be read by dictionary editors, please forward this request to that list. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College & State University Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 FAX: 912-454-0873 Office: Arts & Sciences 3-04 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 10:24:53 -0800 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALVIN.LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: American epenthetic "r" On Fri, 25 Oct 1996, Donald M. Lance wrote: But I did think of Tom Murray's data in THE LANGUAGE OF ST LOUIS, MISSOURI: VARIATION IN THE GATEWAY CITY (Peter Lang, 1968). Murray cites interesting local evidence: signs in laundromats (p. 17). In one case, a "would-be grammarian" corrected a sign saying "warsher don't work" by changing the verb to "doesn't" with no indication that the correctionist found anything amiss in the identity of the machine that didn't work. Murray has a table (p. 18) summarizing data he collected in St Louis: That's interesting, since it indicates that the anonymous "correctionist" was aware of the r even to the point of assuming it should be reflected in spelling. I heard anecdotal evidence of the opposite from a fellow grad student years ago. This colleague, who was from Kansas, told of remarking to an acquaintance that the acquaintance must also be from Kansas since she used an r in "warsh." "R?!!" replied the other woman in perplexity. "There's no r in 'warsh'!" Peter McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, OR Table 3 CONDITIONED VARIATION OF INTRUSIVE r (as in 'wash') context in which heard socio-econ class informal midformal formal % no. % no. % no. upper 83 1446 68 1185 39 669 middle 92 1657 76 1369 52 937 lower 99 1766 82 1463 68 1213 It is interesting that this phonological bit of Americana, known by dialectologists as an Ohio Valley phenomenon (but not limited to this area), is also thought by someone to exist to some extent (primarily?) in CA, OR, ID. My students from St. Louis would always mention this "awful" pronunciation when I would ask about features of St Louis speech; they hung their heads in shame for not being to erase it from their phonological systems -- only they thought it was a feature of a single lexical item rather than a phonological rule in their heads/behavior. I've always suspected it was more widespread than limited dialectological reports have suggested. When the last volume of DARE comes out we'll probably get a nice map and a better answer than we had before. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:36:46 -0500 From: Bill Spruiell 3lfyuji[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CMUVM.CSV.CMICH.EDU Subject: Re: Hanged / Hung; Mr. Right I can't help but remark that including under one header the topics of whether or not it is correct to say that criminals are "hung" and of "Mr. Right" might lead outside readers to think that this list is rather more colorful than they might have expected..... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 17:08:09 -0500 From: Mark Mandel mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: American epenthetic "r" -Reply (and RT(F)M(A)) Amazing. Simply amazing. I saw a query on LINGUIST that I thought the readership of this list would be interested in and able to help with, and I posted it here complete with the asker's address and with a two-line header of my own, of which the second line was Please do NOT reply to me. So far I have gotten five replies by direct email, none of which seem to have been cc'ed to the original asker. I have forwarded them all, but it is frankly $%&* irritating to be wasting my time this way. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:10:55 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: "don't" with 3rd-sg subj (was: NO TICKEE, NO SHIRTEE antedate) An early citation posted by Barry Popik re "no tickee, no shirtee!" raises a different question. "... even if Mayor Grace don't veto it ..." clanged hard on my sense of register as a harsh nonstandard intrusion in what was otherwise a literate though colloquial style of writing (more evident in the full citation than in the single sentence I have copied below). Is this usage actually as inconsistent as it seems to me 110 years later, or is it really typical of the source and consistent in its time and place? Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Barry A. Popik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM 10/27/96, 02:57pm This is from The Brooklyn Times, 29 July 1886, pg. 2, col. 2: Of course such an ordinance won't hold water if any Chinaman has gumption enough to make a test case of it even if Mayor Grace don't veto it which he doubtless will. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 15:08:39 -0800 From: James Arthurs jarthurs[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVIC.CA Subject: Re: A few questions from an interested student . . . re: the strip of land between the sidewalk and the street is called a "tree lawn" in northern Indiana. I also have heard some call it a "park." In Victoria, B.C. and various other parts of Canada it is usually called "the boulevard". James Arthurs, Linguistics Department, University of Victoria, P.O.Box 3045, VICTORIA, B.C., Canada V8W 3P4 Tel: (250) 721-7432 (Home) (250) 478-8295 Fax: (250) 721-7423 (Home) (250) 474-1205 E-mail: jarthurs[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVic.CA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 18:07:58 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: A few questions from an interested student . . . -Reply Volume III of DARE has an entry for "lower" (rhymes with sour): Of the weather or sky: to become dark or threatening; hence ppl adj _lowering_, adj _lowery_, also sp _loury_ meaning dark, threatening. The entry is labelled "chiefly NEng, Upstate NY," and there's a good map to justify the label. With respect to terms for the strip of grass between the sidewalk and the street, here are those collected by DARE in response to Qu. N44: BANK 1 BANQUETTE 1 BAR DITCH 1 BEHIND THE CURB 1 BERM 7 (especially Great Lakes) BORDER 4 BOULEVARD 42 (chiefly Upper Midwest, North Central) BOULEVARD STRIP 3 BURN 1 CARPET STRIP 1 CENTER STRIP 1 CURB 16 CURB AND GUTTER 1 CURB AREA 1 CURB LAWN 3 (Responses with "curb" are scattered, but CURB LINE 14 chiefly North, North Midland) CURB SIDE 1 CURB STRIP 10 CURB WAY 1 CURBING 11 DEVIL STRIP 1 (Akron and northeastern Ohio) DIVIDANCE 1 DIVIDER 1 DOG-WALKING AREA 1 EASEMENT 1 EDGE 1 EDGING 2 END GATES 1 FLOWER STRIP 2 FORE LAWN 1 FRONT LAWN 1 GRASS 3 GRASS CURBING 1 GRASS PLOT 14 (chiefly Atlantic States) GRASS STRIP 5 GREEN 3 GREEN STRIP 2 GUTTER 1 HEDGE 1 HEDGE ROW 1 INTER-STRIP 1 ISLAND 7 ISLAND STRIP 1 LAWN 47 LAWN EXTENSION 1 LAWN STRIP 1 LOVERS' LANE 1 MALL 6 MEDIAN 2 MEDIUM 2 MOAT 1 NEUTRAL GROUND 6 (chiefly Louisiana, southern Mississippi) NEUTRAL STRIP 1 NH 7 NO-MAN'S-LAND 1 NR 566 OUT BY THE CURB 1 PARK 7 PARK STRIP 1 PARKAGE 1 PARKING 55 (chiefly NW, Plains, esp Iowa; also N Cent, sCA) PARKING AREA 5 PARKING LOT 1 PARKING STRIP 17 (chiefly NW, esp WA) PARKING TERRACE 1 PARKWAY 55 (scattered, but esp Mississippi-Ohio Valleys, West) PART OF THE YARD 3 PATH 1 PLANTING-STRIP 1 PLOT 4 PLOT OF GRASS 1 PRODDA 1 RIGHT-O'-WAY 1 RIGHT-OF-WAY 3 SHOULDER 3 SHOULDER GRASS 1 SIDE BOARD 1 SIDEWALK 4 SIDEWALK GRASS 1 SIDEWALK PLOT 7 SIDEWALK STRIP 1 STATE LAND 1 STREET LAWN 1 STRIP 4 STRIP OF GRASS 3 TERRACE 13 (esp N Cent) TOWN LAND 1 TREE BANK 3 (esp w Massachusetts) TREE BELT 3 TREE BOX 1 TREE LAWN 14 (esp Great Lakes) TREE PLOT 1 TREE SPACE 1 TREE STRIP 2 TREE ZONE 1 UNPAVED PAVEMENT 1 WATERING PLOT 1 YARD 2 Joan Hall, DARE jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 00:38:19 -0500 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: text query The practically-venerable Chambers and Trudgill is not meant to survey US dialects, and doesn't. But it has several other excellent and still-unsurpassed qualities, I think. One is its very clear writing which informs without condescending-- challenging for undergrads, perhaps, but not too much. I'd only use several chapters, but you might want to consider it. J. Chambers & P. Trudgill, Dialectology. 1980. Cambridge UP. I've been waiting for Walt (and Natalie Schilling-Estes) to revise the 1991 book so we can all use it again! but I guess it won't be this year... --peter patrick georgetown u. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Oct 1996 to 28 Oct 1996 ************************************************ There are 21 messages totalling 545 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "don't" with 3rd-sg subj (was: NO TICKEE, NO SHIRTEE 2. A few questions from an interested student . . . -Reply (2) 3. hurl v.i. (5) 4. Re2: text query 5. lowery, grass strip, etc (3) 6. don't -Forwarded 7. (don't) oops 8. right colorful hung ideas seep furiously, mister 9. flush with 10. case coin (2) 11. case Ucoin~ 12. Help 13. Guanxi! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 01:07:05 -0500 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: "don't" with 3rd-sg subj (was: NO TICKEE, NO SHIRTEE I don't think it's as inconsistent as it sounds now to Mark, no. 3rd person "don't" was actually quite posh in turn-of-the-century and 1920s British English as far as I know-- though I haven't studied it any further than reading Dorothy Sayers's Lord Peter Wimsey novels and such-like. There it co-occurred with -in' esp. in the well-known huntin'/shootin'/fishin' words. These may well have been quite informal then too, but don;t seem to have been automatic class indicators or Wimsey wouldn't have used 'em (he said "'em" quite a bit too). Perhaps it was hasty to call these locutions "posh"-- they may have occurred only in breezy colloquial speech of upper-class scions such as Wimsey-- but they definitely didn't seem to align style with social class as we tend to assume nowadays. I *have* wondered whether they might not be associated with leisure domains that brought the peers into contact with rural dialect speakers, eg games-keepers on their country estates. Anyone know? --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 07:40:46 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: A few questions from an interested student . . . -Reply joan hall said: With respect to terms for the strip of grass between the sidewalk and the street, here are those collected by DARE in response to Qu. N44: BANQUETTE 1 does "banquette" also mean "sidewalk" in new orleans? that's what i thought it was. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:52:19 EST From: Orin Hargraves 100422.2566[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: hurl v.i. The current issue of "The Net" magazine has a page of parody haikus culled from the WWW, among which is: Angst-ridden poet Can this guy be serious? I think I might hurl What does hurl mean? With best wishes, Orin Hargraves ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 09:18:01 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: hurl v.i. Angst-ridden poet Can this guy be serious? I think I might hurl What does hurl mean? 'to vomit' Popularized in Australia in the 1960s by commedian Barry Humphries; U.S. currency stems from the film Wayne's World (1992). Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:59:51 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: hurl v.i. To hurl - to upchuck, to toss your cookies, to hug the great white whale, to pray before the alabaster god, to barf. In short, to throw up. Dennis (who alays hopes it is the last time) The current issue of "The Net" magazine has a page of parody haikus culled from the WWW, among which is: Angst-ridden poet Can this guy be serious? I think I might hurl What does hurl mean? With best wishes, Orin Hargraves ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 07:50:05 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU Subject: Re2: text query Peter and others might be interested to know that a second edition of the Wolfram and Christian book "Dialects and Education" is in the works and will come out through Columbia Teacher's Press. It is at a perfect level for the elementary ed majors I teach. I taught a course called "the American Lg" last year and put together my own reader including a range of materials from classics like Mencken and Marckwardt and McDavid to modern variationist studies to one of Crawford's books on bilingual education. Started with Colonial English, moved on to History of BVe and Southern Eng (the course was at the Univ of Memphis)then to a couple of articles from Tim Frazer's excellent collection on prestige and Yankee cultural imperialism and ended with the dialect and education and biling ed material. It was a lot of fun. If anyone wants specific references, you can write to me- ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:47:16 CST From: mpicone MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU Subject: Re: A few questions from an interested student . . . -Reply On Tue, 29 Oct 1996 07:40:46 -0500 M. Lynne Murphy said: joan hall said: With respect to terms for the strip of grass between the sidewalk and the street, here are those collected by DARE in response to Qu. N44: BANQUETTE 1 does "banquette" also mean "sidewalk" in new orleans? that's what i thought it was. I don't know about New Orleans usage, but I do know that the Cajun French speakers use _banquette_ for sidewalk (maybe in Engish, too; I haven't noticed). This is a very natural extention of usage for Continental French _banquette_, which can mean a kind of pedestrian pathway along a canal or road, harkening back to the lane atop a rampart. Mike Picone University of Alabama MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 10:11:43 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: hurl v.i. To hurl - to upchuck, to toss your cookies, to hug the great white whale, to pray before the alabaster god, to barf. In short, to throw up. Dennis (who alays hopes it is the last time) a non-linguistic note: a friend just informed me that on an oprah show about phobias the fear of vomiting was somewhere around number 4 in the top ten (or whatever) list of common phobias. (she sent this info to me because i'm well-known in certain circles for this fear. one takes one's fame any way one can get it.) a linguistic note: in south africa (if you're unfortunate), you kotch. lynne, who recently used "they threw up the apples" in an ambiguity assignment --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 08:47:52 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU Subject: lowery, grass strip, etc LAMSAS received quite a few responses of Lowery, as I recall. I was hoping to find its file "clouding up" among the databases on the map-generating web page at http://hyde.park.uga.edu but it doesn't seem to be there yet. Ck the LANE also, but I'm sure your teacher has suggested that. By the way, you may not realize that Audrey Duckert is well-known among dialectologists. In fact, her name and that of Virginia McDavid are about the only women whose work I am familiar with from that generation. The "rogues gallery" in the LAMSAS office is too full of old white men (who well deserve to be there, don't get me wrong; I have a couple on my office wall). Speaking of which, if anyone has a photo of Guy Lowman, who would be old if he were alive, I'd love to have a copy. I have no word for the strip of grass beside the sidewalk. There weren't many sidewalks in the suburbs of Atlanta where I grew up in the 60s and 70s, and those that did exist were flush with the street. I think the LAGS urban supplement asked that question, besides DARE. ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:03:18 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: don't -Forwarded E.W.Gilman sent me privately a long list of citations of "don't" with 3rd-singular subject spanning many centuries. With permission, I am forwarding it to the list. Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Received: from pluto.dragonsys.com (pluto.dragonsys.com 204.165.62.2) by ishtar.dragonsys.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id JAA08629 for mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ishtar.dragonsys.com ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 09:46:30 -0500 Received: (from smap[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]localhost) by pluto.dragonsys.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) id JAA24992 for Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com ; Tue, 29 Oct 1996 09:46:23 -0500 Received: from unknown(206.98.43.4) by pluto.dragonsys.com via smap (V2.0beta) id xma024982; Tue, 29 Oct 96 09:46:03 -0500 Received: from mw045 (mw045.m-w.com) by m-w.com (NeXT-1.0 (From Sendmail 5.52)/NeXT-2.0) id AA10860; Tue, 29 Oct 96 09:44:43 EST Message-Id: 9610291444.AA10860[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]m-w.com Comments: Authenticated sender is egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]webster.m-w.com From: "E. W. Gilman" egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]webster.m-w.com Organization: Merriam-Webster, Inc. To: Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:04:13 +0000 Subject: don't Reply-To: egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]webster.m-w.com Priority: normal X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail for Windows (v2.33) There"s a pretty good backgrounder on 3d person singular don't in MWDEU. I have been collecting stuff ever since, and besides the examples shown there I have: Samuel Johnson: the wolf don't count the sheep John Adams (1779): the World dont know this Charles Dickens (1842): he is an ass and an imposter and clearly don't know anything at all about it Edward Lear (1851):that don't mend the mastter Herman Melville (1876): See if Kate dont agree with me Louisa May Alcott (1869): Theodore Tilton, who dont seem to be grown up yet Abraham Lincoln (1848): they think our candidate for the Presidency dont suit us Mark Twain (1856): But that don't suit me H. Rider Haggard (1904): he don't drive himself Rudyard Kipling (1923): Paul don't see George Bernard Shaw (1926): and HE don't matter Louisa May Alcott also used doesn't in her letters, but don't more often. So even in the US the prestige of 3d person singular don't was not completely gone until the end of the 19th century, and it hung in in British English for quite a while longer. Doesn't has now been dated back to around 1675, but it didn't catch on very quickly, and it took the schoolmarms a half centry or more to install it in place of don't in American usage. E.W.Gilman ---------------------------------------------------------- E. W. Gilman Director of Defining Merriam-Webster Inc. 47 Federal St. Springfield, MA 01102 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:05:59 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: (don't) oops I said "Many centuries"; 2 and a bit is more like it. My Windows 95 mail access is on the fritz, and I can't look at a piece of mail while forwarding it. -- Mark Mandel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:15:07 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: right colorful hung ideas seep furiously, mister I can't help but remark that including under one header the topics of whether or not it is correct to say that criminals are "hung" and of "Mr.Right" might lead outside readers to think that this list is rather more colorful than they might have expected..... well, this list _IS_ MORE COLORFUL than they might have expected! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:13:34 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: flush with From Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU 10/29/96, 09:47am I have no word for the strip of grass beside the sidewalk. There weren't many sidewalks in the suburbs of Atlanta where I grew up in the 60s and 70s, and those that did exist were flush with the street. To me, "flush" in this domain means "directly adjoining and at the same level": "The sign must be flush with the wall, so we have to carve out a recess to set it in." But this usage seems to mean just "directly adjoining"; if the sidewalk and the street were also at the same level, there would be no curb, which seems dangerous. Am I understanding correctly? Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 11:04:34 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: lowery, grass strip, etc I have no word for the strip of grass beside the sidewalk. There weren't many sidewalks in the suburbs of Atlanta where I grew up in I've often wondered when hearing people discuss terms for this grassy strip why I don't have any name for it and don't remember ever hearing anybody else call it anything. Ellen's posting made me wonder if maybe this is significant in itself -- maybe Southerners or at least Southerners who grew up in cities form a sort of "zero isogloss" in not having a term? Or maybe my reason for not having one is like Ellen's -- there weren't many sidewalks in north Jackson. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 12:10:55 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: lowery, grass strip, etc I've often wondered when hearing people discuss terms for this grassy strip why I don't have any name for it and don't remember ever hearing anybody else call it anything. Ellen's posting made me wonder if maybe this is significant in itself -- maybe Southerners or at least Southerners who grew up in cities form a sort of "zero isogloss" in not having a term? Or maybe my reason for not having one is like Ellen's -- there weren't many sidewalks in north Jackson. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) there were lots of these grassy things in my northeastern environs, but i never had a word for it, and i don't think my folks did either. my dad would say "you did a lousy job mowing the part next to the street." no special name. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: +27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: +27(11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 14:26:34 -0600 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: case coin From the Stumpers list -- help a librarian, and maybe suggest some books which answer such questions. Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 12:30:18 +0000 (UT) From: THOMPSON.TRACI.WILSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DCC001.ncdcc.cc.nc.us To: stumpers-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]crf.cuis.edu Subj: ? case nickels and quarters Hello! How good is anyone out there with dialect and/or slang questions? This is not for a patron, just for the curiosity (and adding of knowledge) of the librarians here. Several of our patrons use the term "case nickel" or "case quarter" when asking for change. For example, someone will give us two dimes and a nickel and ask for a "case quarter." No one who works here has ever heard this expression before, and we think perhaps it is a colloquialism, especially since everyone but me is not from this area. I am from one county over, and I've never heard anyone use this term either. We have gathered that the meaning is a "whole quarter" or nickel versus the smaller change, but we would love to know more about the origins of this. Does anyone have any knowledge that might help? We have checked dictionaries, including slang and unconventional english, with no luck. We are too small and poor to have an OED. (Does anyone know if OED is on the net?) If it helps, we are located in Wilson, North Carolina. Please send any responses directly to me, if possible. Thank everyone very much! :) Traci Thompson, Assistant Librarian, Wilson Technical Community College *-------------------------------------------------------------------------* | Wilson Technical Community College | | Wilson, NC | | thompson.traci.wilson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dcc001.ncdcc.cc.nc.us | | Telephone: (919) 291-1195 Fax: (919) 243-7148 | *-------------------------------------------------------------------------* Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html When the death penalty is outlawed, only outlaws will die. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:44:13 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: case coin On case quarters, nickels, etc.: I'm not familiar with that usage, but it strikes me as somehow evocative of the card (at least poker) player's use of "case X" (case queen, six, ace, etc.), meaning the last one in the deck. If I have three deuces I might (although no doubt I shouldn't) stay in the hand with the hope of drawing the case deuce, or if you're showing a pair of kings in stud poker and Kim is showing one, I can still hope to draw the case king. I'm not sure how or why this should be related to your case nickel, but it seems to me it is. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:55:55 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: case Ucoin~ Hello! How good is anyone out there with dialect and/or slang questions? This is not for a patron, just for the curiosity (and adding of knowledge) of the librarians here. Several of our patrons use the term "case nickel" or "case quarter" when asking for change. For example, someone will give us two dimes and a nickel and ask for a "case quarter." No one who works here has ever heard this expression _DARE_ has an entry for this, defined as "A coin of a particular denomination as against the same amount of money comprised of several coins," with cites back to 1954. It's identified as chiefly South Carolina, with additional informants from Alabama and Georgia. I have only heard it personally in the last several years, generally from black informants. Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 17:41:57 -0500 From: Steven Gearhart GusMahl707[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Help Can someone help me to get off this list please?? Peace, Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 19:24:28 -0500 From: Joseph Claro claro1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EARTHLINK.NET Subject: Re: hurl v.i. The "hurl" in the haiku (not a bad title for a book) means "to vomit." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 20:12:03 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Guanxi! This is from Christopher Caldwell's column "Hill of Beans" in the New York Press, October 30-November 5, 1996, pg. 14, cols. 3-4: My favorite rationalization is that we have to understand Chinese folkways in order to understand the Lippo scandal. "Five hundred thousand bucks? That's nothin'," _The New York Times_ and _Washington Post_ tell us. "It costs a million to join a businessmen's golf club in Hong Kong. In Guangzhou, businessmen give their associates' wives diamond tiaras for Christmas--even though they don't celebrate Christmas. In Beijing, it's customary for businessmen to pay for politicans' houses. It's just _Guanxi!_" _Guanxi?_ Leaving aside that it's the linchpin of this particular elaborate rationalization, the thing I'm sickest of is the sudden omnipresence of this word _Guanxi_. Here is a word no one ever heard of two weeks ago, which appears set to take its place in the language alongside samizdat, chutzpah, esprit de corps, sprezzatura, intifada, glasnost, glog and Schwarzwalderkirschentorte. And now, people who don't even know the Chinese word for egg foo yung are writing about "the importance of _Guanxi_, or connections"--and pronouncing it, in impeccable pseud fashion, _with a Chinese accent!_ You hear it on television and radio as "hwannnn-shhhi" and you can almost see the announcers bowing as they say it, just as, when NPR newsmen pronounce Bosnia ("Bwooznia") or Chechnya ("Chitch-_nyar_"), you can picture people puckering their lips and pursing their brows. Rather than call them "_Guanxi_, or connections," why not just call them "connections"? If Chuck Woollery ever needs guests for the LOVE GUANXI, count me in. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Oct 1996 to 29 Oct 1996 ************************************************ There are 23 messages totalling 619 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. 10.0374 Smithsonian fellowships 2. Oprah video (3) 3. ollie, ollie, oxen free 4. Tards (2) 5. Tards -Reply 6. "don't" with 3rd-sg subj (was: NO TICKEE, NO SHIRTEE 7. case coins--thanks (3) 8. flush with 9. Natalie, how 'bout this idea? (7) 10. hurl v.i. 11. Mondegreens, again 12. phenomen-a/-on ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 06:07:00 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: 10.0374 Smithsonian fellowships Humanist Discussion Group, Vol. 10, No. 374. Center for Electronic Texts in the Humanities (Princeton/Rutgers) Centre for Computing in the Humanities, King's College London Information at http://www.princeton.edu/~mccarty/humanist/ 1 From: Pamela Hudson OASBB001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SIVM.SI.EDU (75) From: DARWIN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]iris.uncg.edu (12) Subject: Smithsonian Institution Fellowships (fwd) *************************************************** Please forward to appropriate lists and individuals. Apologies for any cross-posting. *************************************************** The Smithsonian Institution encourages access to its collections, staff specialties, and reference resources by visiting scholars, scientists, and students. The Institution offers in-residence appointments for research and study using its facilities, and the advice and guidance of its staff members. SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTION FELLOWSHIP PROGRAM The Smithsonian Institution offers fellowships for research and study in fields which are actively pursued by the museums and research organizations of the Institution. At present these fields are: Animal behavior, ecology, and environmental science, including an emphasis on the tropics Anthropology, including archaeology, Astrophysics and astronomy Earth sciences and paleobiology Evolutionary and systematic biology History of science and technology History of art, especially American, contemporary, African, and Asian art, twentieth-century American crafts, and decorative arts Social and cultural history of the United States Folklife POSTDOCTORAL FELLOWSHIPS are offered to scholars who have held the degree or equivalent for less than seven years. SENIOR FELLOWSHIPS are offered to scholars who have held the degree or equivalent for seven years or more. The term is 3 to 12 months. Both fellowships offer a stipend of $25,000 per year plus allowances. PREDOCTORAL FELLOWSHIPS are offered to doctoral candidates who have completed preliminary course work and examinations. Candidates must have the approval of their universities to conduct doctoral research at the Smithsonian Institution. The term is 3 to 12 months. The stipend is $14,000 per year plus allowances. GRADUATE STUDENT FELLOWSHIPS are offered to students formally enrolled in a graduate program of study, who have completed at least one semester, and not yet have been advanced to candidacy if in a Ph.D. Program. The term is 10 weeks; the stipend is $3,000. These fellowships support research in residence at all Smithsonian facilities except the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory (see below). Postmark deadline for submission - January 15, 1997 Stipends are prorated for periods of less than twelve months. FELLOWSHIPS AT THE SMITHSONIAN ASTROPHYSICAL OBSERVATORY Applicants interested in conducting research at the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory should write to the Office of the Director, Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory, 60 Garden Street, Cambridge, MA 02138 for program information, application materials, and deadlines. Fellowship Applications, supporting materials, and information on other Smithsonian Institution fellowhsip and internship programs can be retrieved at the following address (but they must be submitted by postal mail): http://www.si.edu/research+study or by contacting: Office of Fellowships and Grants Smithsonian Institution 955 L'Enfant Plaza, Suite 7000 Washington, D.C. 20560 (202) 287-3271 or E-mail: siofg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sivm.si.edu (Please include mailing address for requested materials) *************************************************************** Pamela E. Hudson, Academic Programs Specialist Office of Fellowships and Grants Smithsonian Institution oasbb001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sivm.si.edu phone: (202) 287-3271 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:51:43 EST From: Sonja Lanehart LANEHART[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Oprah video I few days ago I sent out a message asking for help in obtaining videos of the 1987 Oprah show on AAVE and SE as well as a 1992 Sonya Live show on AAVE and Orr's book _Twice as Less_. So far, no one has even indicated they've heard of the latter. However, a couple of people have e-mailed me off list about the Oprah episode. They have their own copies of the Oprah episode and are willing to make copies of it. That willingness to make copies was an offer to me. Since then, 3 people have also asked about getting copies. I've mailed them the e-mail addresses of the people who have the video, but I thought I should send out this message in case there were others who wanted the video. I don't know what making multiple copies will do to the quality of the video. Both people have expressed some concern about the demand for the video as well as the possible problems that could result from having and/or sharing a"bootlegged" copy. If anyone else is interested in getting the Oprah video, send your message to ADS-L and let those that have a copy of the tape contact you if they choose--which is how it usually goes anyway. So, we're all no worse or better off than before. *********************************************************************** Sonja L. Lanehart Dept. of English (300 Park Hall) Phone: (706) 542-2260 University of Georgia Fax: (706) 542-2181 Athens, GA 30602-6205 E-mail: Lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu *********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:01:00 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: ollie, ollie, oxen free ****************************** * PLEASE DO NOT REPLY TO ME. * ***************************************************** * REPLY DIRECTLY TO mschildk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]greens1.elgin.cc.il.us * ***************************************************** From LINGUIST 7.1528: --------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1996 13:10:04 CST From: mschildk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]greens1.elgin.cc.il.us (Marge Schildknecht) Subject: ollie, ollie, oxen free I am writing on behalf of an english instructor at our college. He is interested in knowing the origin and/or meaning of the phrase "ollie, ollie, oxen free" (or one of the variations.) We discovered your list using Alta Vista to search "children's games" on the web. We have exhausted the sources available in our library and would appreciate any information you may have. Thank you, in advance, for your help. Marge Schildknecht Reference Librarian Elgin Community College Elgin, IL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 09:51:12 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Oprah video If anyone else is interested in getting the Oprah video, send your message to ADS-L and let those that have a copy of the tape contact you if they choose--which is how it usually goes anyway. So, we're all no worse or better off than before. I know nothing about the technicalities/legalities but would like a copy if those details are figured out by somebody who knows about such matters. You might have already mentioned this, but is it not possible to buy a legal copy from the tv people (vague term there because I'm not sure exactly which "tv people" I'm talking about)? --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 10:55:39 EST From: Sonja Lanehart LANEHART[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Oprah video You might have already mentioned this, but is it not possible to buy a legal copy from the tv people (vague term there because I'm not sure exactly which "tv people" I'm talking about)? I tried getting a legal copy from Oprah's studio and Journalgraphics. The former doesn't sell them and the latter only sells them for up to 1 year after they appear on television. In this case, that was about 9 years ago. *********************************************************************** Sonja L. Lanehart Dept. of English (300 Park Hall) Phone: (706) 542-2260 University of Georgia Fax: (706) 542-2181 Athens, GA 30602-6205 E-mail: Lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu *********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:15:36 +0000 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: Tards The TARDIS is the machine that Doctor Who travels in, but I believe there is an actual word "tardis", possibly used by Scots. Any ideas? Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]jerrynet.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 11:38:06 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: Tards The TARDIS is the machine that Doctor Who travels in, but I believe there is an actual word "tardis", possibly used by Scots. Any ideas? Dr. Who's Tardis is an acronym for Time And Relative Dimension In Space. I am not aware of any other word _tardis._ There is a word _tards,_ which is Scots for 'a strap used to beat students with as a punishment', and American slang _tards,_ pl. of _tard_ 'an offensive person; fool; jerk', front-clipped from _retard,_ but these are unrelated to Dr. Who's machine. Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:50:24 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: Tards -Reply I don't know if the "Dr. Who" writers were aware of it, but the root "tard" in Latin means "slow" or "late". In Esperanto, "tardis" is the past tense of the verb "tardi" 'to be late'. Relevance possible but marginal. -- Dr. Whom Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, & Philological Busybody ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:56:38 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: "don't" with 3rd-sg subj (was: NO TICKEE, NO SHIRTEE If I remember correctly Lord Peter Wimsey used both "don't" and "et" as the past form for eat. They were in some sense upper class usage (and hunting and fishing as sport would go along with that class). Jeutonne Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 14:05:16 -0600 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: case coins--thanks Thanks -- I've passed this along to the Stumpers list, where the original question was asked. I did have to "translate" DARE; otherwise, some of the people on that list would probably have thought of the anti-drug group and a couple might have wondered if it referred to a novel by Philip Jose Farmer. And now I should probably find out where in North Carolina Wilson is. Date: Tue, 29 Oct 1996 15:55:55 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: case Ucoin~ Hello! How good is anyone out there with dialect and/or slang questions? This is not for a patron, just for the curiosity (and adding of knowledge) of the librarians here. Several of our patrons use the term "case nickel" or "case quarter" when asking for change. For example, someone will give us two dimes and a nickel and ask for a "case quarter." No one who works here has ever heard this expression _DARE_ has an entry for this, defined as "A coin of a particular denomination as against the same amount of money comprised of several coins," with cites back to 1954. It's identified as chiefly South Carolina, with additional informants from Alabama and Georgia. I have only heard it personally in the last several years, generally from black informants. Jesse Sheidlower Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html When the death penalty is outlawed, only outlaws will die. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:42:36 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU Subject: Re: flush with Yes, Mark, there was a curb. Sorry for my imprecise usage. Too bad, Lynne (that you were aware of such things but had no name for them). So much for that part of my hypotheses on ling. relativity. Ellen _______________________ Reply Separator _______________________ Subject: flush with Author: American Dialect Society ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU at INETGW Date: 10/29/96 10:19 AM From Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU 10/29/96, 09:47am I have no word for the strip of grass beside the sidewalk. There weren't many sidewalks in the suburbs of Atlanta where I grew up in the 60s and 70s, and those that did exist were flush with the street. To me, "flush" in this domain means "directly adjoining and at the same level": "The sign must be flush with the wall, so we have to carve out a recess to set it in." But this usage seems to mean just "directly adjoining"; if the sidewalk and the street were also at the same level, there would be no curb, which seems dangerous. Am I understanding correctly? Mark A. Mandel : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 13:52:13 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU Subject: Natalie, how 'bout this idea? The several requests I received for syllabi for the Am. Lg. course, combined with a conversation with a colleague, have made me wonder if this would work for us. She is on a discussion list where a part of the archives consists of syllabi that several people have sent in. There is another section with bibliographies. And a film review section. Could we solicit syllabi for dialect-related courses and set up a place for them on the web page. Not being a veteran teacher, myself, I would find this very helpful. Ellen ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:08:19 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Natalie, how 'bout this idea? The several requests I received for syllabi for the Am. Lg. course, combined with a conversation with a colleague, have made me wonder if this would work for us. She is on a discussion list where a part of the archives consists of syllabi that several people have sent in. There is another section with bibliographies. And a film review section. Could we solicit syllabi for dialect-related courses and set up a place for them on the web page. Not being a veteran teacher, myself, I would find this very helpful. Ellen If you undertook this project in a big way and added vowel and consonant charts, bibliographies, exercises, useful photographs, maps, and click-and-hear-dialect-variation icons, you could apply for an NEH technology development grant of $25,000. The deadline for the next go around is April 18, I believe. I am working on one such grant locally on a different topic, but I would be willing to help develop such a useful Web site. It would be nice to have a site that covered the entire history of the English language and provided a plethora of useful materials. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College & State University Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 FAX: 912-454-0873 Office: Arts & Sciences 3-04 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 15:46:51 -0600 From: Ed Deluzain bethed[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.INTEROZ.COM Subject: Re: Natalie, how 'bout this idea? For what it's worth, I think Wayne Glowka has a great idea. The kind of Web site he suggests would be enormously useful to me and my students. Ed Deluzain At 04:08 PM 10/30/96 -0500, you wrote: The several requests I received for syllabi for the Am. Lg. course, combined with a conversation with a colleague, have made me wonder if this would work for us. She is on a discussion list where a part of the archives consists of syllabi that several people have sent in. There is another section with bibliographies. And a film review section. Could we solicit syllabi for dialect-related courses and set up a place for them on the web page. Not being a veteran teacher, myself, I would find this very helpful. Ellen If you undertook this project in a big way and added vowel and consonant charts, bibliographies, exercises, useful photographs, maps, and click-and-hear-dialect-variation icons, you could apply for an NEH technology development grant of $25,000. The deadline for the next go around is April 18, I believe. I am working on one such grant locally on a different topic, but I would be willing to help develop such a useful Web site. It would be nice to have a site that covered the entire history of the English language and provided a plethora of useful materials. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College & State University Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 FAX: 912-454-0873 Office: Arts & Sciences 3-04 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] Ed Deluzain bethed[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]interoz.com--Home deluzhe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dolphin1.mosley.bay.k12.fl.us--School http://interoz.com/usr/bethed and http://www.geocities/Athens/Acropolis/1912/--Home Pages [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:28:13 -0500 From: "Christopher R. Coolidge" ccoolidg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ZOO.UVM.EDU Subject: Re: hurl v.i. On Tue, 29 Oct 1996, Orin Hargraves wrote: The current issue of "The Net" magazine has a page of parody haikus culled from the WWW, among which is: Angst-ridden poet Can this guy be serious? I think I might hurl What does hurl mean? Blow chunks. Woof cookies. Ralph. Worship the porcelain altar. Get the idea? (See Wayne's World for cool hurl reference) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:33:58 EST From: Charles Boewe cboewe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JUNO.COM Subject: Mondegreens, again Lovers of mondegreens may wish to know they have gone commercial. A company called Worldwide Games in its Christmas catalog advertises a game called Mad Grab. As far as one can tell from the illustration, this consists of a pack of fifty to sixty cards, each of which bears two printed mondegreens. Two of the mondegreens that can be made out from the illustration are "piece sun-up odd" and "egg sighting dimes." The game is rated as suitable for ages "12 to adult." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:23:18 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Natalie, how 'bout this idea? Could we solicit syllabi for dialect-related courses and set up a place for them on the web page. Not being a veteran teacher, myself, I would find this very helpful. Ellen Sounds like a great idea to me. If anybody wants to contribute syllabi, just e-mail them to me and I'll set up the page immediately. HTML would be desirable, but plain ASCII will do. The syllabi and handouts that I have on my classes' web pages are just ASCII copies of the WP originals that I've added the very basic HTML markings to, including pre , which means you don't have to go through and mark things like lines breaks and paragraph breaks. The pre means "just use the spacing etc. of the ASCII document." I couldn't live without pre in doing the job ads and calls for papers on our web pages. But keep in mind that we're moving toward the time when I'm going to be gone for a little over a year. So far nobody has volunteered to take over ADS-L or suggested what to do about the web, gopher, and ftp files. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 18:25:19 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Natalie, how 'bout this idea? If you undertook this project in a big way and added vowel and consonant charts, bibliographies, exercises, useful photographs, maps, and click-and-hear-dialect-variation icons, you could apply for an NEH technology development grant of $25,000. The deadline for the next go around is April 18, I believe. This is an excellent idea. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 16:37:16 -0800 From: Lex Olorenshaw lexo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LSI.SEL.SONY.COM Subject: Re: Natalie, how 'bout this idea? If you undertook this project in a big way and added vowel and consonant charts, bibliographies, exercises, useful photographs, maps, and click-and-hear-dialect-variation icons, Funny...I was just thinking when that "Oprah video" stream went around that I didn't want a copy of the entire video, but it would be neat to see some of the most interesting parts as video clips on a web site... =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Lex Olorenshaw E-mail: lexo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lsi.sel.sony.com =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 19:39:49 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: case coins--thanks I ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 19:51:28 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: phenomen-a/-on For the record, it 'should' be "this phenonmenon" not "this phenomena"; the "-a" ending is plural. (Why do I find this solecism so maddening? I'm supposed to be a trained professional. . . .) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 19:51:52 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: case coins--thanks I first heard this term ("case quarter") in eastern North Carolina in the early 1970s. A friend of mine--native of near Wilmington whose ancestors moved to the area in colonial days--said how weird and alien he found the expression--had heard it in White Lake, NC (also eastern NC) from teenagers. My friend was in his early 20s at that time. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Oct 1996 19:57:41 -0500 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: Natalie, how 'bout this idea? I also think it's a great idea. I'd be happy to contribute syllabi. But I hesitate to add to natalie's burden until it's been relieved, esp. of the jobs that are necessary to ADS-L's continuation. Should we wait until that gets resolved first? --peter ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Oct 1996 to 30 Oct 1996 ************************************************ There are 6 messages totalling 191 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Wimps; Mothers-in-Law; Dominoes 2. ghoti 3. Re2: Natalie, how 'bout this idea? (3) 4. ReU2~: Natalie, how 'bout this idea? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 02:44:48 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Wimps; Mothers-in-Law; Dominoes I've been going through the Chicago Tribune. Here are three antedates. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------- WIMP: OED has 1920 from George Ade's HAND-MADE FABLES. Ade was from Chicago. The Chicago Tribune had an editorial page column called "A Line O' Type Or Two" by "B.L.T." (Burton L. Thayer). From 24 February 1917, pg. 6, col. 3: Pres. Wimp, Meet Mr. Skidmore. Sir: If the Line is equipped with chains, please record the nomination of "Hefty" Skidmore, of Denver, tire salesman. L. R. B. From 6 March 1917, pg. 6, col. 3: MR. OBE GOODE of St. Augustine, Fla., desires it known that he has answered the Academy roll call. Pres. Wimp will forward the new brother's credentials. From 24 August 1917, pg. 6, col. 3: PASSED Sir: Kindly inform Dean Wimp that Miss Waiva Finger of Brandon, Wis., has been nominated as angel to the signal corps of the Academy. R. 106. (I'll probably find many more--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------- MOTHERS-IN-LAW: A headline of 11 July 1917, pg. 6, col. 3. reads "Variant of the Mother-in-Law Joke." The joke-coiner's name is quoted on 13 August 1917, pg. 8, col. 3: AS TO ORIGINS Sir: Talking about origins, this seems rather an original origin of the original mother-in-law joke. Tom Prior is responsible: Alcibiades while walking one day with his wife on the hills of Acropolis espied a she-wolf in the distance. Stooping, Alcibiades picked up a large rock, which he hurled at the she-wolf, but, missing, struck his mother-in-law, whereupon Alcibiades exclaimed: "Ah, not so bad!" H. O. (Thank goodness this genre died--ed.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------- DOMINOES: The OED traces the domino theory to a speech by Dwight Eisenhower that was quoted in the NY Times of 8 April 1954. William Safire's NEW POLITICAL DICTIONARY discusses it in detail and adds "The phrase has currency." In the Chicago Tribune of 21 June 1917, pg. 13, col. 2, there is a drawing of dominoes. A hand represents "The People." The dominoes about to fall include a czar, a king, and a kaiser. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 11:28:25 +0000 From: "E. W. Gilman" egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WEBSTER.M-W.COM Subject: ghoti Can anyone tell me where George Bernard Shaw said that _fish_ could be soelled ghoti? It is not in the collection of his writings on language, and the editor of that collection says only that Shaw was associated with the story of the ghoti spelling. I have found a few references to this spelling (in Pinker, for instance), but nobody mentions where Shaw actually said this, if indeed he did. I begin to suspect an apocryphal tale. E.W.Gilman ---------------------------------------------------------- E. W. Gilman Director of Defining Merriam-Webster Inc. 47 Federal St. Springfield, MA 01102 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 12:21:05 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INETGW.WKU.EDU Subject: Re2: Natalie, how 'bout this idea? This is an excellent idea, Wayne, but don't hold your breath waiting for me to do it. I haven't figured out how to make my own web page yet. Anybody else? Could it be that the possibility of getting a grant for further development on our site might motivate someone to take it over while Natalie is gone? Bringing in grant money goes a long way toward tenure these days. Ellen ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 13:39:34 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: ReU2~: Natalie, how 'bout this idea? Could it be that the possibility of getting a grant for further development on our site might motivate someone to take it over while Natalie is gone? Bringing in grant money goes a long way toward tenure these days. My thoughts exactly. When I read that posting last night, I started thinking that the timing was good -- that somebody could take what we've already got to use as a start and could build on it, ideally grabbing some grant money along the way, involving grad students, etc. Sometime soon I'll post something clear and simple about the different tasks I've been talking about. Running ADS-L is quite easy, btw. The only part that takes any time is not something that has to be part of the job -- compiling daily archives by hand. But let me not let myself turn this into another long ramble. This is a very quick login in the midst of a very hectic day. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:42:50 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re2: Natalie, how 'bout this idea? This is an excellent idea, Wayne, but don't hold your breath waiting for me to do it. I haven't figured out how to make my own web page yet. Anybody else? Could it be that the possibility of getting a grant for further development on our site might motivate someone to take it over while Natalie is gone? Bringing in grant money goes a long way toward tenure these days. Ellen Basically what we are doing here is having English faculty collaborate with someone in computer science. We're going to ask for money for a server devoted to an O'Connor project and for release time for the participants. Projects recently funded by the NEH include a site for the teaching of classical studies. If we weren't sitting on an O'Connor goldmine, I'd be fast at work on this language project. I cannot tell you how much I could use a site like this and a basic picture encyclopedia every time I teach class. Wayne P.S. I just ordered your book. It looked good in the advertisement. I also used your name in vain yesterday at a department meeting when I said that we ought not hire any more lit professors; we should make the new positions teach film, English language, and folklore. Since I had just read your book ad, I used you as an example of a linguist who could teach courses in things like Southern American--classes sure to make in this town left intact by Sherman. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College & State University Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 FAX: 912-454-0873 Office: Arts & Sciences 3-04 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 14:52:42 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re2: Natalie, how 'bout this idea? Dear ADS-L'ers, I apologize for sending a personal note to Ellen to all of you. I will read my header next time. Wayne ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Oct 1996 to 31 Oct 1996 ************************************************ .