Subject: ADS-L Digest - 31 Oct 1997 to 1 Nov 1997 There are 12 messages totalling 283 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. RE>Re: What does the "n" word mean? (was PC dictionaries) 2. dialect coaches 3. Neck Hue (2) 4. "my bad" (2) 5. rat's ass, nigger, redneck,... 6. Ast for Ask (2) 7. "race" (was PC Dictionaries?the N word? racism? race?) 8. "it's all good" 9. apologies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 04:09:50 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Subject: Re: RE>Re: What does the "n" word mean? (was PC dictionaries) In a message dated 10/30/97 10:57:15 AM, you wrote: <> Fuck yeah.... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 04:12:37 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Subject: Re: dialect coaches In a message dated 10/30/97 2:09:16 PM, you wrote: <> How do I get a copy? Monk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:11:07 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: Neck Hue Beverly, When I was an undergrad at IU (before you were born), the locals were called 'cutters' (for the same stone-cutting reasons you mention). When did it change to 'stoneys'? Dennis > A similar label in Bloomington, Indiana was "stoney," for the kids > whose parents worked in the limestone quarries south of town, and for > all non-town, non-IU kids. Cf. "farmer," "plowboy," etc. up North. > > The social stereotyping extends beyond schoolkids, unfortunately. An > ESL teacher here was sneering at the speech of local kids just the > other day, noting in particular a neighboring town called Chauncey (how > do you all pronounce that name, by the way?) and adding, "Thank > goodness my kids are out of school" (presumably to avoid coming "under > the influence" any longer). Sadly, a linguist colleague commented that > Ohio elementary school teachers should all be required to take courses > in teaching ESL so they could teach Standard English as a Second > Dialect to these kids. Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:38:21 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: Neck Hue "Cutters" was the term in the film _Breaking Away_. beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 11:07:43 -0500 From: "Margaret G. Lee -English" Subject: Re: "my bad" "Bust a move" also means to dance, to get into the rhythm of the music--a term originating with black music/black musicians. Rapper Young MC had a hit song entitled "Bust a Move" a few years ago. On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Monkmag wrote: > Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 21:09:49 EST > From: Monkmag > To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "my bad" > > In a message dated 10/30/97 3:53:00 AM, you wrote: > > < fault or my embarrassment maybe even coming from "to bus someone out" > to show them up. > > Ditra > D-Henry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neiu.edu > >> > > Actually, I've also heard "bust" used favorably. Especially in basketball. > "Nice bust" means nice shot or nice basket. And to "bust a move" is to make a > sexual advance on someone, usually a woman. However, a "buster" is a wannabe > gang member. There's more, but others can take it from here. > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 10:19:23 -0600 From: Thomas Creswell Subject: Re: rat's ass, nigger, redneck,... Monkmag wrote: > " And by Italian-Americans when they speak of other "dagos" and "______" > (ah, the term escapes me now).... Perhaps folks out there can think of other > examples of this tendency, say from Irish or Jews or Latinos. How about "wops" or "wallios" to filll in the blank? In Chicago, when I was growing up, it was common for Irish-Americans to refer to other Irish-Americans as "turkeys." I do not find this sense of _turkey_ recorded in any of the many dictionaries I have. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 12:33:54 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: "my bad" Calvin Wiley, choreographer (and director?) of the Rainbow Dance Company, developed an instructional video to teach dance instructors how to teach funk moves. He called his routine, "Bust a move". beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 13:54:11 -0500 From: Ron Butters Subject: Re: Ast for Ask someone writes: >>>>>Isn't ast for ask fairly easy to understand just in articulatory terms? When you pronounce the s, you then have to move your tongue way back in your mouth to do the velar k. But if (without really thinking about it) you kind of naturally slip into making things a bit easier on yourself, tonguewise, then from an "s" tongue-position in the mouth, the nearest voiceless stop for an English speaker is t, not k.<<<<< Yes. This is a the phonologial process known as ASSIMILATION. It is why we say MARBLE instead of MARMOL (B > M under the influence of the surrounding nonasal sounds--as well as under the influence of the initial M). ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 14:13:49 -0500 From: Evan Morris Subject: Re: "race" (was PC Dictionaries?the N word? racism? race?) At 05:50 AM 10/30/97 , Duane Campbell wrote: > >In biology and taxonomy (which is what we are discussing here, whether we >know it or not), race is a subdivision of a species, that is, an organism >that has recognizable genetically transmitted attributes but is not >different enough from others of its ilk to constitute a separate species. >There are races of house sparrows and lab rats and begonias. Another word >for the same thing is sub-species, but I suspect that applied to humans >that could be even more offensive. My understanding is that race (or subspecies) is defined in terms of differential reproductive success. Inasmuch as there not different rates of reproductive success in "interbreeding" between the various human "races," there is no such thing, technically speaking, as a human subspecies or "race." The social category of "race" is, of course, another matter entirely, but there's no biological basis for it. -- Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 20:53:52 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: Ast for Ask >>>>>>Isn't ast for ask fairly easy to understand just in articulatory terms? >When >you pronounce the s, you then have to move your tongue way back in your >mouth to do the velar k. But if (without really thinking about it) you kind >of naturally slip into making things a bit easier on yourself, tonguewise, >then from an "s" tongue-position in the mouth, the nearest voiceless stop >for an English speaker is t, not k.<<<<< You guys may be making a little too much of "ease of articulation." Ron seemed to say that we move the apex of the tongue way back to make the [k]. I doubt that he meant quite that; I also doubt that all of his brain was in gear as he was typing - like I am sometimes. Do the people who say ast for ask also say bast for bask? And bastet for basket? Some, maybe. "Is he basking in the sun?" "I'll ast him. He's a real bastet case." When an adult says bastet, we assume some sort of defect in maturation, but we attribute ast to dialect or ease-of-articulation assimilation. What gives? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 22:21:01 -0600 From: Tom Head Subject: "it's all good" Does anyone know where the phrase "it's all good" came from? I've heard it used a lot in grunge culture and have seen it gradually make its way to mainstream youth slang (almost exclusively in males, in my experience). I'd be just about ready to bet that this phrase actually originated in the jazz era, but I have no proof. The phrase is used to shrug off an apology for a minor inconvenience (ex: "Sorry I spilled your drink." "Hey, don't worry, man, it's all good."). Tom Head tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netdoor.com http://www2.netdoor.com/~tlh "The first duty in life is to be as artificial as possible. What the second duty is, no one has yet discovered." -- Oscar Wilde ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 22:58:14 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy Subject: apologies just realized that i sent a note to the mad monk, jim crotty, to the whole list. mea culpa. but apologizing just gives you another annoying messages to delete. mea maxima culpa. lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 31 Oct 1997 to 1 Nov 1997 *********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 1 Nov 1997 to 2 Nov 1997 There are 11 messages totalling 308 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. thank you . . . thank you 2. rat's ass, nigger, redneck,... 3. "it's all good" (8) 4. reflexives ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 22:56:24 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy Subject: Re: thank you . . . thank you Monkmag wrote: > > Lost your last missive to me, Lynn. > > Just giving you a hard time. Yes, banal banter drives me nuts too. Unless, of > course, I am the one who wants to engage in banal banter. Don't make like or > dislike, as the Zen patriarchs seem to indicate, is probably the best > solution. Since the more we cling to our need for silence and privacy, the > more the world wants to invade. > > Monk well, thanks for the hard time. even if i bitch about it, i do like attention. ah, the contrary nature of life. (it ain't for nothin' that my specialty is antonyms.) best, lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 00:31:55 -0800 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey Subject: Re: rat's ass, nigger, redneck,... Perhaps folks out there can think of other >examples of this tendency, say from Irish or Jews or Latinos. There's "freaks" from the 60's. Rima ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 04:34:41 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Subject: Re: "it's all good" In a message dated 11/2/97 1:06:29 AM, you wrote: <> Like a lot of youth slang, it probably comes from black culture. I've heard it primarily from black kids.... Don't know more than that, though I could wildly conjecture..... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 10:29:46 -0800 From: Judi Sanders Subject: Re: "it's all good" I can't speak to the origin of "it's all good" except to say that it is not in RHDAS, Major's "Juba to Jive" nor Smitherman's "Black Talk." I can say that it is widely used by youths (both male and female, and of all races) across the country. Connie Eble collected it this year at UNC, Pam Munro collected it this year at UCLA (as she did in 1994), and we collected it at CPP. I've also collected it from Cincinatti in an internet survey. Not quite an answer to the origins. I'd be interested to hear if anyone's traced it. Judi Sanders Dr. Judi Sanders email: jasanders[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csupomona.edu Department of Communication phone: (909) 869-3527 Cal. State Polytechnic U., Pomona fax: (909) 869-4823 3801 W. Temple Blvd. dept: (900) 869-3522 Pomona, CA 91768 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Web: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The College Slang Page: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders/slang ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:27:08 -0500 From: STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN Subject: Re: "it's all good" Why does everything have to originate from AAVE or "Black Talk?" Some phrases or sayings are just that, not because they originated from black people, but just sayings. Damn!, why cant it come from "White talk" and what exactly would white talk be? I'm not trying to offend anybody its just that this "black talk" issue is kind of touchy for me. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:39:07 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: "it's all good" At 04:27 PM 11/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >Why does everything have to originate from AAVE or "Black Talk?" >Some phrases or sayings are just that, not because they originated from >black people, but just sayings. Damn!, why cant it come from "White >talk" and what exactly would white talk be? I'm not trying to offend >anybody its just that this "black talk" issue is kind of touchy for me. > I'd be sympathetic in a general way with these sentiments. The issue at hand is what the actual origin and usage-history of "it's all good" is, and that's an open question absent empirical research into the early usage (which someone out there may yet produce). I suspect that when a locution sounds authentic it might seem tempting to say "urban vernacular," i.e., cool, new, with-it, etc. But one could argue (just prima facie, without the empirical evidence that is the only crucial thing) that "it's all good" sounds as much like a new-agey or pop-buddhist phrase (or something like that) as it does like an AAVE phrase. People of African and of European descent are probably more or less equally likely to come up with authentic-sounding vernacular locutions.... Nobody has a monopoly on one type of linguistic innovation or another.... Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:41:45 -0500 From: STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN Subject: Re: "it's all good" Thank you Greg man, thank you. Youre so budiful. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 13:48:38 -0800 From: Judi Sanders Subject: Re: "it's all good" At 04:27 PM 11/2/97 -0500, STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN wrote: >Why does everything have to originate from AAVE or "Black Talk?" Perhaps I should make my conclusions more explicit. At this point, I would doubt that "it's all good" does originate from AAVE since it is not listed in reference works describing the lexicon and since it has been found on university campuses across the country that are not HBCUs nor primarily populated by African American students. None of these data are conclusive one way or the other . . . just tracks. I think people often assume that the sources of slang are AAVE because AAVE has contributed to slang -- especially among youths. Actually, to me, it sounds like the kind of phrase my Texas grandmother would have used . . . but I don't actually recall her using it. Judi Sanders outDr. Judi Sanders email: jasanders[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csupomona.edu Department of Communication phone: (909) 869-3527 Cal. State Polytechnic U., Pomona fax: (909) 869-4823 3801 W. Temple Blvd. dept: (900) 869-3522 Pomona, CA 91768 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Web: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The College Slang Page: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders/slang ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 17:35:07 +0000 From: Al Futrell Subject: Re: "it's all good" > At 04:27 PM 11/2/97 -0500, you wrote: > >Why does everything have to originate from AAVE or "Black Talk?" > >Some phrases or sayings are just that, not because they originated from > >black people, but just sayings. Damn!, why cant it come from "White > >talk" and what exactly would white talk be? I'm not trying to offend > >anybody its just that this "black talk" issue is kind of touchy for me. Well, everything doesn't come from "Black Talk" but generally a term becomes "interesting" when we have never heard it before or don't understand the metaphor which informs it. This is what some ethnographers would call a 'breakdown' - that is, when the researcher's culture and some other culture don't seem to jibe. On this list most of the people are white, so it is logical that "white talk" would be more familiar to them and thus less interesting. Fewer breakdowns and thus the tendency to notice terms foreign to their worldview. --Al Futrell, Dept of Comm, Univ of Louisville --al[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]louisville.edu --http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 18:14:33 -0500 From: Carrie Crockett Subject: reflexives In response to the request for information concerning dialect differences and reflexives, I can say that I've certainly found people from my region (Memphis) and maybe from the South in general to use reflexives in more contexts and sometimes in more forms than people from other regions of this country. I myself frequently say things like "Get you some," "I'm gon eat me a ton of X tonight," or "Order you whatever you want," where speakers of a different dialect might not have a reflexive at all or else might have yourself or myself instead of me or you. These are my perceptions, but I don't know of any references on the subject. Carrie Leigh Crockett Sociolinguistics, Georgetown crocketc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 21:30:25 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" Subject: Re: "it's all good" The phrase can, of course, come from any one of a number of sources. Everything doesn't originate from AAVE--or from any other single source. As someone state, these are just tracks or guesses about where to look. Jeutonne On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN wrote: > Why does everything have to originate from AAVE or "Black Talk?" > Some phrases or sayings are just that, not because they originated from > black people, but just sayings. Damn!, why cant it come from "White > talk" and what exactly would white talk be? I'm not trying to offend > anybody its just that this "black talk" issue is kind of touchy for me. > ********************************************** Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27412 email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer *********************************************** ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Nov 1997 to 2 Nov 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 2 Nov 1997 to 3 Nov 1997 There are 44 messages totalling 1410 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. reflexives 2. "it's all good" (8) 3. Neck Hue (2) 4. Reflexives in American dialects of English 5. The Full Monty (2) 6. origins of slang (3) 7. i.e.4 warning (4) 8. "my bad" 9. TAN: folk etymology of copasetic 10. "black talk vs. white talk" (was "origins of slang") 11. Indian giver 12. "so do me something" 13. "race" (was PC Dictionaries?the N word? racism? race?) (4) 14. "stoked" (5) 15. Smell of this! 16. "race" 17. Nominations for Words of the Year (2) 18. Ast for Ask 19. sorry RE: ie4 20. Muskrat Root- poisonous plant 21. "Stoked" 22. Rumorazzi ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:25:54 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Subject: Re: reflexives In a message dated 11/2/97 3:15:45 PM, you wrote: <> I have noticed this too.... Michael Lane, a southerner from Arkansas, might say, "fix you some greens?" Is that what you mean? Since I am not a trained linguist, I am interested in knowing how you define a reflexive. Any short answers on that subject appreciated. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:34:26 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Subject: Re: "it's all good" In a message dated 11/2/97 6:31:11 PM, you wrote: < Why does everything have to originate from AAVE or "Black Talk?" > Some phrases or sayings are just that, not because they originated from > black people, but just sayings. Damn!, why cant it come from "White > talk" and what exactly would white talk be? I'm not trying to offend > anybody its just that this "black talk" issue is kind of touchy for me.>> Well, this notion of "black talk" is, in part, fostered by "black" writers. I have a book on my shelf by Geneva Smitherman called Black Talk, which argues that there is definitely a uniquely "black" way of speech. Though she doesn't have "all good," she does have "all that." But I agree, I prefer to be color-blind in most things, including vernacular. Though there are times when words or expressions clearly come from a very specific racial group. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 07:25:53 -0500 From: Robert Ness Subject: Re: Neck Hue The term in Carlisle, PA is "hooftie." It's cited in DARE. On Fri, 31 Oct 1997, Beverly Flanigan wrote: > A similar label in Bloomington, Indiana was "stoney," for the kids > whose parents worked in the limestone quarries south of town, and for > all non-town, non-IU kids. Cf. "farmer," "plowboy," etc. up North. > > The social stereotyping extends beyond schoolkids, unfortunately. An > ESL teacher here was sneering at the speech of local kids just the > other day, noting in particular a neighboring town called Chauncey (how > do you all pronounce that name, by the way?) and adding, "Thank > goodness my kids are out of school" (presumably to avoid coming "under > the influence" any longer). Sadly, a linguist colleague commented that > Ohio elementary school teachers should all be required to take courses > in teaching ESL so they could teach Standard English as a Second > Dialect to these kids. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 07:34:52 -0500 From: Robert Ness Subject: Re: Reflexives in American dialects of English Now I lay me down to sleep; I had me some supper; etc. This was the Old English way of expressing reflexivity, and still exists in some PDE dialects. On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Daniel Long wrote: > I have been waiting for someone to respond to this person's question. > Perhaps someone has replied off the list. This sounds like an area > where regional variation is significant. Phrases like "Sit yourself > down.", "I had myself some supper", is this not what she is referring > to? Isn't there regional variation in these types of expressions? > Certainly there is someone on the list who knows more about the subject > than me. > > Danny Long > > elisa vazquez iglesias > > I am interested in finding out if there are any variations with respect to > > the usage of reflexives in the different dialects of English. I would > > appreciate it if you could give me detailed information for the dialect > > you speak or if you could direct me to any relevant reading you are > > aware of. > > -- > Daniel Long, Associate Professor NEW tel +81-6-723-8297 > Japanese Language Research Center NEW fax +81-6-723-8302 > Osaka Shoin Women's College dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp > 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/ > Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:46:50 +0000 From: Aaron Drews Subject: The Full Monty Apparently, the writer of the film (or one of the head honchos), was at a roadside cafe one morning in England. He ordered a "cooked breakfast", with everything that comes along with an English cooked breakfast. The waitress asked him, "oh, the Full Monty?" This could be one of those folk origins, of course. I'll ask around and see if there is an actual, recorded interview with the writer about the title. Cheers, Aaron ===================================================================== ====== Aaron E. Drews http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron Ph.D. Candidate +44 (0)131 650-3485 The University of Edinburgh fax: +44 (0)131 650-3962 Departments of Linguistics and English Language ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:39:11 CST From: Ellen Johnson Subject: origins of slang My research on vocabulary slang suggests that words and phrases often do NOT originate in any particular ethnic or social group these days and spread from there. Television, radio, and the many other ways language is communicated to a wide variety of people at once make another type of explanation more likely: its use by an icon of popular culture. I agree we are too quick to ascribe slang to AfAm origins. "It's all good" does sound new-agey to me, but no way is it pop-Buddhist. For Buddhists, all of us here confined to the wheel of birth and death are suffering in various degrees depending on our level of attachment to this illusion we call "reality". Ellen ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 08:54:31 -0600 From: Greg Pulliam Subject: i.e.4 warning I've gotten a warning about Internet Explorer 4 for windows95--apparently if you remove the program after integrating it into your desktop, it will fry W95. Personally, I'm a mac person, but I thought some of you folks might like to know about this. Gregory J. Pulliam Illinois Institute of Technology Lewis Department of Humanities Chicago, IL 60616 gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.cns.iit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:09:55 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: origins of slang At 08:39 AM 11/3/97 CST, you (Ellen Johnson ) wrote: > "It's all good" does sound new-agey to me, but no way is it > pop-Buddhist. For Buddhists, all of us here confined to the wheel of > birth and death are suffering in various degrees depending on our > level of attachment to this illusion we call "reality". > Yes, you're right -- sukkha and all that. Maybe "it's all indifferent" would have been the phrase to label pop-Buddhist.... Sorry -- I dashed my note off within ten minutes of the note I was responding to, and in no way was I trying to sound normative: just trying to point out that (absent the evidence obtainable through heavy lifting) there were other sources at least as likely as AAVE for the phrase "it's all good".... And I absolutely agree with your other point (which I clipped out -- whoops) that a lot of these catch phrases come into wide usage via popular culture -- TV and movies etc.--, just as a century ago they'd have done so through music-hall songs or routines, or political sloganeering, etc. (Examine the clear, or hazy, origins of many items in Partridge's _Dictionary of Catch-Phrases_.) Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:03:46 EST From: Julia Cochran Subject: Re: "it's all good" >Why does everything have to originate from AAVE or "Black Talk?" >Some phrases or sayings are just that, not because they originated from >black people, but just sayings. Damn!, why cant it come from "White >talk" and what exactly would white talk be? I'm not trying to offend >anybody its just that this "black talk" issue is kind of touchy for me. All historical factors being equal -- which of course they never are -- I suspect that in a society where whites had never constituted the numerical and/or power majority, many "majority" members might feel "touchy" about "white talk" as well. Not to oversimplify the matter, but it's kind of a human thang. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 09:48:20 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: i.e.4 warning >I've gotten a warning about Internet Explorer 4 for windows95--apparently >if you remove the program after integrating it into your desktop, it will >fry W95. Sounds like cyber-era (anti-Gates) folklore. Will there be a Gatesgate? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:05:10 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: Re: "my bad" Around 1990, my nephews (at the time they were 17/18) started using the term. They didn't play basketball, but they did watch sports on T.V., and they listened to Rap music (this is where I think they got the term, simply because they used many terms heard in the music). Maybe it is not just a "court-distributed" phrase? Jessie Emerson Jim Crotty wrote: > > In the hoops section of my recent book, How to Talk American, I talk > about its > use in street basketball. I'll bet you that white guy in the Atlanta > Airport > was a basketball player or coached basketball or had a son who played > regular > basketball. It's definitely heard quite frequently on the courts. For > example, > you drive down the court on a three and one. Rather than pass to one > of your > wide open teammates under the basket, you instead choose to shoot a > three- > pointer, which you miss. Everyone knows you made a bonehead play, but > will cut > you some slack, if in running back down court you say, "I'm sorry > guys, my > bad." > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:18:01 -0500 From: Alan Baragona Subject: TAN: folk etymology of copasetic Recently, there were separate discussions on this list about the nature of folk etymology and about the mysterious etymology of "copasetic". They dovetailed for me this morning while talking to a colleague, and I thought I'd share an accidental folk etymology with the list. Whether this is one model for how folk etymologies arise I would not venture to say. My friend used "copasetic," and when I mentioned that it had been the topic of conversation here, he said he'd always dimly assumed that it was the name of a laxative that had been extended to mean anything that went as smoothly as crap through a goose. I pointed out that he was confusing "copasetic" with "Kayopectate" (sp?), but he admitted that even if he had remembered the real name of the laxative, he might have thought that "copasetic" was just a variation of it. This is probably as reasonable an etymology as Partridge's joke that it comes from "cope" and "antiseptic" by way of Amerindian. Alan B. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 11:16:07 -0500 From: Al Futrell Subject: Re: origins of slang On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Ellen Johnson wrote: > My research on vocabulary slang suggests that words and phrases often > do NOT originate in any particular ethnic or social group these days > and spread from there. Television, radio, and the many other ways > language is communicated to a wide variety of people at once make > another type of explanation more likely: its use by an icon of > popular culture. I agree we are too quick to ascribe slang to AfAm > origins. Ellen: I would have to respectfully disagree with you on this -- at least slightly. No doubt the mass media makes for quicker dissemination, which in turn makes for more difficulty in tracking origins. H.L. Mencken made a claim similar to yours above except that he suggested that certain journalists were the top coiners of slang (I don't have the quotation handy, sorry). Maybe I am old fashioned -- though I am not as old as Mencken would be -- but I think much slang originates socially and not individually. That is, I think most of it comes from subcultural jargon, cant, argot, etc., that becomes popular (often thanks to music, tv, radio, internet, etc.) among large segments of the general population. The meanings, of course, quite frequently do not diffuse with the actually locutions; frequently, they change because the subcultural metaphors make no sense to the new users. But then I have had this argument before..... Al Futrell -- al[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]louisville.edu -- http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01 Dept of Communication -- University of Louisville ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:42:27 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: "black talk vs. white talk" (was "origins of slang") How slang is distributed is another question (the first being where slang originates). Slang originates in many places, including AAVE, Southern speech (as we've seen on this list), the speech of varying immigrants through the years (as we've also seen on this list), etc., etc. "Popular" culture watches certain T.V. programs/movies and listens to certain music, "college" culture watches/listens to other types, "country" culture watches/listens to still other types, etc., etc. Thus, the distribution of slang doesn't have to be limited to "popular culture." In the "country" culture of North Alabama, you don't hear young people say "my bad" or "bust a move." You do hear it in North Alabama in other "culture" groups. It seems to me that people don't immediately think about slang coming from "white talk" because in many areas of the country Standard American English is the norm (and I suspect this is what everyone on the list is refering to as "white talk"), not because it is "white talk", but because T.V. and radio news and other non-entertainment programs have become widespread. It sounds very similar to the situation that has been going on for decades in Great Britain. I just don't think the average citizen of the U.S. is aware of it, because dialects here are not so vastly different over such relatively small areas (as they are in GB). My opinion, based on aging college notes, Jessie Emerson Greg Downing wrote: > And I absolutely agree with your other point (which I clipped out -- > whoops) > that a lot of these catch phrases come into wide usage via popular > culture > -- TV and movies etc.--, just as a century ago they'd have done so > through > music-hall songs or routines, or political sloganeering, etc. (Examine > the > clear, or hazy, origins of many items in Partridge's _Dictionary of > Catch-Phrases_.) > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:54:51 +0200 From: Jan Strunk Subject: Re: "it's all good" Dear listmembers, I don't know whether it is very likely, but the expression "it's all good" sounds a little bit like the German "Es ist schon gut" meaning "it's OK", "you don't have to be sorry" and "don't mention it" to me. "schon" means "already". I don't know whether it's possible to use "all" instead of "already" in English. What I do know is that "all" is used in Low Saxon to say "already". I hope this is useful. Jan Strunk strunk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]t-online.de Jeutonne P. Brewer wrote: > The phrase can, of course, come from any one of a number of > sources. Everything doesn't originate from AAVE--or from any > other single source. As someone state, these are just tracks > or guesses about where to look. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:24:52 -0700 From: Kat Rose Subject: Re: Indian giver Billy Hamilton considers the term "indian giver" derogatory and offensive to Native Americans. Because of such feelings, I quit using the term by junior high. I am wondering, however,... The phrase was in fairly common use during my grade school days, but I didn't understand it as pejoritive of Native Americans. I thought it came from the history of broken treaties and the repeated relocation of "Indians" (my elementary school days predate the common use of "Native Americans") from land that was considered worthless when "given" to them but later found to have some exploitable value. Hence, an "Indian giver" was someone who gave, but took back, someone who promised, but reneged--as the U.S. government did to the Indians. Was my perspective unusual? Did I learn too much history too soon? Or was this a valid understanding of the term as it was used 40 years ago? [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]>-->--- Kat Rose Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]spot.Colorado.edu My words, my rights, my responsibility ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:35:36 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: "so do me something" Is anyone familiar with the phrase, "So do me something" used as a retort? Know anything about the origin? thanks, beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:50:34 EST From: Billy Hamilton Subject: Re: "it's all good" I don't know about all this black talk vs. white talk stuff. I have heard this phrase mainly from white males. I have never heard it in the context of an apology though. Every time I've ever heard it, it has been in a sexual\dating context. As in: "I don't want to date her because I don't find her attractive." reply: "Oh, but man, it's all good." In my experience, this is used often by white males who are labeled, in this area at least, as "hicks" or "rednecks." Billy Hamilton ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 12:53:30 +0000 From: Duane Campbell Subject: Re: "race" (was PC Dictionaries?the N word? racism? race?) At 02:13 PM 10/31/97 -0500, you wrote: > >My understanding is that race (or subspecies) is defined in terms of >differential reproductive success. You have been misinformed. Specific races of plants are often used in hybridizing programs. The truth is that the term race is not very well defined (nor is species, which puts meat and potatoes on taxonomists' tables) and may be used slightly differently by different botanists or zoologists. Most commonly it is expressed geographically. A race or subspecies of some plant may be slightly different from another race growing in another isolated area, but not yet evolved far enough to constitute a different species. Brought together they are quite compatable. > Inasmuch as there not different rates >of reproductive success in "interbreeding" between the various human >"races," there is no such thing, technically speaking, as a human >subspecies or "race." Quite the contrary. One homogeneous species expanding out of Africa (according to this week's theory) gradually became geographically isolated and evolved into slightly different strains with identifiable genetic characteristics. Races. That is the biology of it. As a social issue the word obviously takes on other nuances. But attempts to solve a problem by simply denying it have seldom been successful. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 10:15:24 -1000 From: Norman Roberts Subject: "stoked" Aloha e Listers "I'm stoked it was only my leg and that everybody was there for me." "He's just stoked that God lets him live, and he's thankful for his friends." These statements appeared in a Honolulu Stat-Bulletin, 10/31/97: A-3 report of a young man who had been bitten by a shark while surfing. The first statement is by the victim; the second is by his sister. Both grew up on Kauai and lived two years (1993-1995) in New Zealand. This usage of "stoked" is new to me. I don't think it's local surfing jargon or Hawaiian Creole English. The term seems to mean "relieved" or "glad" in these contexts. Has anyone heard or seen it elsewhere? The dictionary definition "to stoke the fire" probably doesn't apply here, although it might be an extnsion of the meaning "to fill up on food." Aloha N ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:00:06 -0600 From: "Salikoko S. Mufwene" Subject: Re: "race" (was PC Dictionaries?the N word? racism? race?) I couldn't resist commenting on the present exchange on 'species', although I should know better than butting my nose into things I understand minimally. Duane Campbell wrote: >The truth is that the term race is not very well >defined (nor is species, which puts meat and potatoes on taxonomists' >tables) and may be used slightly differently by different botanists or >zoologists. > Actually biologists define the term "species", except that there are about three definitions of it, of which I remember only two: 1) individuals claiming the same ancestry (but not necessarily sharing features--at least not the same ones among them all) may be grouped in the same species; 2) individuals sharing the same features (regardless of their ancestry) may be grouped together under the same species. Theoretically one may collapse the two criteria and be more strict about their notion of 'species'. I suppose much of this variation depends on the kind of work one is doing and what kind of classification interests them, and for what purpose. >> Inasmuch as there not different rates >>of reproductive success in "interbreeding" between the various human >>"races," there is no such thing, technically speaking, as a human >>subspecies or "race." > >Quite the contrary. One homogeneous species expanding out of Africa >(according to this week's theory) gradually became geographically isolated >and evolved into slightly different strains with identifiable genetic >characteristics. Races. > This is actually where variation within the original species, ecology, and selective success in reproduction come to work hand in hand. If there were no variation within the original species, the migrating population would either adapt to the new ecology and develop no new biological features that would distinguish it from the population left behind, or it would fail to adpt and perish. It can of course interbreed with a population belonging to a different species (related or unrelated) and they can produce descendants of a different kind, leaving it up to ecology to throw the dice and give selective advantage to some members of the new population. External ecology won't introduce new features into a population but in will work on variation within a population to favor some features/genes and produce out of it a population which may be identified as a separate species later. This situation ultimately leads to the question of whether we humans descended from some ape ancestor or whether there is a missing link and the current apes would just be our cousins. >That is the biology of it. You presented one interpretation of it that dismisses the role of ecology, which has increasingly become more and more signifant in studies if evolution. Sali. ******************************************************* Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu University of Chicago 773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924 Department of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html ******************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:13:50 -0500 From: Ron Butters Subject: Smell of this! Michael Montgomerey writes: >Nary a one of the citations is an imperative. "Smell of this!" (= "Smella this!") "Tastea this!" and "Feela this!" all sound very natural to me from my memories of adolescence (and maybe before) in eastern Iowa. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:17:38 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: Re: "stoked" The only usage I know of "stoked" is fired up; e.g., the team was stoked because they won the game. That's from the late '80s/ early '90s, I suppose. Jessie Emerson Norman Roberts wrote: > "I'm stoked it was only my leg and that everybody was there for me." > > "He's just stoked that God lets him live, and he's thankful for his > friends." > > These statements appeared in a Honolulu Stat-Bulletin, 10/31/97: A-3 > report > of a young man who had been bitten by a shark while surfing. The first > statement is by the victim; the second is by his sister. Both grew up > on > Kauai and lived two years (1993-1995) in New Zealand. > > This usage of "stoked" is new to me. I don't think it's local surfing > jargon or Hawaiian Creole English. The term seems to mean "relieved" > or > "glad" in these contexts. Has anyone heard or seen it elsewhere? > > The dictionary definition "to stoke the fire" probably doesn't apply > here, > although it might be an extnsion of the meaning "to fill up on food." > > Aloha > > N ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 14:39:14 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy Subject: Re: "stoked" Norman Roberts wrote: > > Aloha e Listers > > "I'm stoked it was only my leg and that everybody was there for me." > > "He's just stoked that God lets him live, and he's thankful for his friends." > > These statements appeared in a Honolulu Stat-Bulletin, 10/31/97: A-3 report > of a young man who had been bitten by a shark while surfing. The first > statement is by the victim; the second is by his sister. Both grew up on > Kauai and lived two years (1993-1995) in New Zealand. > > This usage of "stoked" is new to me. I don't think it's local surfing > jargon or Hawaiian Creole English. The term seems to mean "relieved" or > "glad" in these contexts. Has anyone heard or seen it elsewhere? > > The dictionary definition "to stoke the fire" probably doesn't apply here, > although it might be an extnsion of the meaning "to fill up on food." well, it's been around long enough and widely enough to get into the _american heritage_ with no regional marking--just a 'slang' label: "1. exhilarated or excited; 2. being or feeling high or intoxicated, especially from a drug". so, i'd guess (and i bet jesse has the real story) that it's come to its more general meaning from drug culture. interesting that it's so close to 'toked'. lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 21:25:29 -0000 From: Evan Morris Subject: Re: i.e.4 warning There is some truth to this, but only some. The problem seems to arise if you are running Office 97 -- MSIE4 overwrites necessary Office files, and, when uninstalled, fails to restore them... or something. I do know people who have turned off desktop integration with no problems at all. Go figure. There's an official microsoft.public.inetexplorer.ie4 usenet newsgroup that deals with all these questions. Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com Semper Ubi Sub Ubi -----Original Message----- From: Greg Pulliam To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Date: Monday, November 03, 1997 3:04 PM Subject: i.e.4 warning >I've gotten a warning about Internet Explorer 4 for windows95--apparently >if you remove the program after integrating it into your desktop, it will >fry W95. > >Personally, I'm a mac person, but I thought some of you folks might like to >know about this. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:37:49 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: Re: i.e.4 warning Just a note: When installing ie4, you have the option to install it as an individual program (like ie3) or as an integrated desktop. JE ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 15:24:00 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy Subject: Re: "race" i haven't been paying a lot of attention to the 'race' conversation, although i should have been doing just that (as i've done a bit of writing on the subject and will likely do more before someone decides to stop me). so, i hope i don't repeat what's been said already but here are a bunch of vaguely related thoughts on the topic: 1. stephen jay gould has some very accessible arguments against racial classification on any kind of biological basis, especially in his book _the mismeasure of man_. 2. one thing that argues against the existence of biological races is the fact that there is more genetic variation within races than across them, which is to say that any member of one 'race' probably has more in common (genetically speaking) with the average characteristics of another 'race' than with any other individual in her/his own 'race'. 3. similarly, some of the things that are seen as 'markers' of 'races' are actually found only partially in some 'races' and often across 'races'. for instance, whites have prominent noses, but you could probably find some prominent nosed black africans as well. a better example: sickle cell anemia is considered to be a "negroid" disease, but the gene for it is not found in the xhosa people of south africa (nelson mandela's ethnic group) but it IS found in many mediterranean ('white') people. 4. many, if not most, anthropologists (the people who brought us 'race' as a science--or at least their precursors did) today do not believe that human races exist. cultural anthropologists, not surprisingly, are much less inclined to believe in 'race' than physical anthropologists. sorry, i don't have the exact figures, but work on anthropologists' views on race has been published in several places by reynolds and lieberman (and by one or the other alone as well--can't think of their first names either--my books and files are still not here from my move in july). back to work; thanks for the break. lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:53:24 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf Subject: Nominations for Words of the Year Barry Popik sends these: --RAZZI (as in paperazzi, videorazzi, stalkerazzi, chopperazzi, et al.) The Word-of-the-Year need not be a "new" word during the year. The most influential word of the year will do. "Ebonics" was two decades old, but was still a WOTY contender last year. "Soccer mom" also was older than a year. "Show Me the Money!" is the Phrase-of-the-Year. The movie JERRY MAGUIRE came out for the Christmas season of 1996, but the movie's catchphrase became popular in January 1997. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:18:39 -0600 From: Ditra Henry Subject: Re: "race" (was PC Dictionaries?the N word? racism? race?) Maybe you have the origin of the word but how it came to be used in this country has nothing to do with either of those etymologies. Ask your self what race really means and try and define it sensibly and out of the way it is being used in this country and in this century and even for the last 500 plus years. Then look for an article by Lerone Bennett called the road not taken. Not the poem itra On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Emerson, Jessie J wrote: > I believe the word race used in this context derives from Middle French > or Italian and means something like "generation" (please correct me on > this). And if I can remember anything from my anthropology courses, I > think that in the early or mid 19th century (before anthropology became > a science) that this term was used in conjunction with the division of > the world's population into Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid. Of > course, the Caucasians made up the divisions, so they got to be number > one. > > Jessie > > > >From Ditra Henry > > > The origin of all the derogatories that we all are so familiar with of > > course then stems back to the word race itself. Was this word just > > a convenient development to set up slavery in this country? or did it > > have > > other meanings before this? I doubt it. However just the emotions > > that > > have been aroused from this discussion is proof that racism is not a > > thing > > fo the past and that it is still thriving as a meaningful and integral > > part of this country. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 16:27:56 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: Re: "race" (was PC Dictionaries?the N word? racism? race?) It was my point that the division into races of pre-anthropologists was, indeed, exactly how the word "race" as a "racist" term came to be used in this country (and in Britain, as well); and not just against anyone who happened to be black, but against anyone who happened not to have "caucasian" features (Native American, Jewish, Asian, etc.). This same application of "race" was one of the primary arguments of the Nazi party in Germany, as well. I don't think it is possible to separate the use of the word "race" in this country in this century from its origins in the history of anthropology. I will look for the article, thank you. Jessie Emerson > Maybe you have the origin of the word but how it came to be used in > this > country has nothing to do with either of those etymologies. Ask your > self > what race really means and try and define it sensibly and out of the > way > it is being used in this country and in this century and even for the > last > 500 plus years. Then look for an article by Lerone Bennett called the > road not taken. Not the poem > > > On Thu, 30 Oct 1997, Emerson, Jessie J wrote: > > > I believe the word race used in this context derives from Middle > French > > or Italian and means something like "generation" (please correct me > on > > this). And if I can remember anything from my anthropology courses, > I > > think that in the early or mid 19th century (before anthropology > became > > a science) that this term was used in conjunction with the division > of > > the world's population into Caucasoid, Mongoloid, and Negroid. Of > > course, the Caucasians made up the divisions, so they got to be > number > > one. > > > > Jessie > > > > > > >From Ditra Henry > > > > > The origin of all the derogatories that we all are so familiar > with of > > > course then stems back to the word race itself. Was this word > just > > > a convenient development to set up slavery in this country? or did > it > > > have > > > other meanings before this? I doubt it. However just the > emotions > > > that > > > have been aroused from this discussion is proof that racism is not > a > > > thing > > > fo the past and that it is still thriving as a meaningful and > integral > > > part of this country. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:54:52 -0500 From: Ron Butters Subject: Re: Ast for Ask >Ron seemed to say that we move >the apex of the tongue way back >to make the [k] Ron didn't say this (at least not this Ron). I _did_ say that ASK --> AST can be explained as phonemic assimilation at the word level. Why doesn't it also happen with BASK (if it doesn't)? Well, historically, phonological processes such as assimilation, dissimilation, and methesis are by no means always regular. *****cf.: someone writes: >>>>>Isn't ast for ask fairly easy to understand just in articulatory terms? When you pronounce the s, you then have to move your tongue way back in your mouth to do the velar k. But if (without really thinking about it) you kind of naturally slip into making things a bit easier on yourself, tonguewise, then from an "s" tongue-position in the mouth, the nearest voiceless stop for an English speaker is t, not k.<<<<< [Ron answers]: Yes. This is a the phonologial process known as ASSIMILATION. It is why we say MARBLE instead of MARMOL (B > M under the influence of the surrounding nonasal sounds--as well as under the influence of the initial M). ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:27:01 -0500 From: "Margaret G. Lee -English" Subject: Re: "it's all good" As with much slang that eventually enters mainstream usage, "It's all good" originated in the African American community about four years ago, essentially a product of hip-hop/rap culture. That and "my bad," "dis," hood," "git-go," "squat," and many other expressions underscore the long rich tradition of the linguistic creativity of African Americans. Margaret Lee Hampton University On Sat, 1 Nov 1997, Tom Head wrote: > Date: Sat, 1 Nov 1997 22:21:01 -0600 > From: Tom Head > To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU > Subject: "it's all good" > > Does anyone know where the phrase "it's all good" came from? I've heard > it used a lot in grunge culture and have seen it gradually make its way to > mainstream youth slang (almost exclusively in males, in my experience). > I'd be just about ready to bet that this phrase actually originated in the > jazz era, but I have no proof. > > The phrase is used to shrug off an apology for a minor inconvenience (ex: > "Sorry I spilled your drink." "Hey, don't worry, man, it's all good."). > > Tom Head > tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netdoor.com > http://www2.netdoor.com/~tlh > > "The first duty in life is to be as artificial as possible. > What the second duty is, no one has yet discovered." > -- Oscar Wilde > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:35:21 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Subject: Re: Nominations for Words of the Year In a message dated 11/3/97 1:53:58 PM, you wrote: <> It's hard to argue with "azzi" (no doubt it's popularity as a negative word due to sounding like "Nazi"), but there are some strong runner-ups.... "Indie" is still hanging around, especially in relation to films (though most so-called "indie films" aren't "indie" at all), though indie magazines and music are now useless concepts. A major consolation prize should be granted to "don't go there," which was a big early 90's gay culture term that has swept the nation, and, still maintains its popularity within gay culture, despite its use by everyone from Ricki Lake and Whoopi Goldberg to those frat boys rooting for the Seminoles. That expression has some legs. There's also "it's a girl thing," and the use of "thing" in all sorts of different scenarios (a holdover from George Bush--perhaps his major contribution to American culture period), and, yes, "da bomb" (as in, "MJ is da bomb"). It's been around awhile, but keeps hanging in there. It remains to be seen whether it will have the staying power of "cool," or groooooovy" (given a huge boost by Austin Powers) or "what---EVer" (the Val girl term I've heard used by straight car salesman in Omaha and practically everywhere else in the country). Other runner-ups include a slew of Buddhist terms ("nirvana," "satori,"), "boutique" (boutique cities, boutique beers), and, believe it or not, "dude" (still strong after all these years, dude) and "kewl" (formerly "cool"). I love this topic, and hope at the end we can ascertain an ADS Top 20 (akin to the top twenty in other "sports").... But I don't want to just limit to words, but expand to influential expressions. Maybe we can also vote for Most Improved, Biggest Loser, and more. Oh, I've never received a very clear definition of a "soccer mom." Is she Republican, Democrat? Democratic Centrist? Liberal Republican? All of the above? Jim Crotty (aka Monk) How to Talk American Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com www.monk.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:01:16 -0500 From: "Margaret G. Lee -English" Subject: Re: "it's all good" On Sun, 2 Nov 1997, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: Exactly what are "authentic-sounding vernacular locutions"? Who or what determines authenticity? While no one has a monopoly on linguistic innovation, the linguistic contributions of African-Americans cannot be overlooked. > Date: Sun, 2 Nov 1997 16:39:07 -0500 > From: Gregory {Greg} Downing > To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "it's all good" > > authentic-sounding vernacular locutions.... Nobody has a monopoly on one > type of linguistic innovation or another.... > > Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:19:08 -0500 From: "Margaret G. Lee -English" Subject: Re: "it's all good" If we could truly be "color blind" as far as vernacular is concerned, there would not be such a big deal about "Ebonics." The fact is that as, Claerbaut so accurately noted, "Whites rarely imitate black grammar or black pronunciation except in derison." But as most of us know, black slang is liberally and readily imitated. On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Jim Crotty wrote: > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:34:26 -0500 > From: Jim Crotty > To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "it's all good" > > In a message dated 11/2/97 6:31:11 PM, you wrote: > > < > have "all good," she does have "all that." But I agree, I prefer to be > color-blind in most things, including vernacular. Though there are times when > words or expressions clearly come from a very specific racial group. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:24:05 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: "it's all good" At 07:01 PM 11/3/97 "Margaret G. Lee -English" wrote: >Exactly what are "authentic-sounding vernacular locutions"? Who or what >determines authenticity? While no one has a monopoly on linguistic >innovation, the linguistic contributions of African-Americans cannot be >overlooked. > I was responding to a rather impassioned and I thought, as a general idea, perhaps well-taken protest against the occasional tendency to assume that any new slang not otherwise identifiable is AAVE. Linguistic innovation happens in lots of ways, he seemed to be implying, and I thought I agreed. I hope no-one on the list would overlook *any* kinds of contributions to linguistic innovation, but the person to whom I was responding felt that there was maybe a reflexive attitude at times about linguistic innovations and AAVE. Maybe you'd quote his post and address his points if you disagree with him; I can forward you a copy, if you like. You mentioned in your last post in this thread that, "as with much slang that eventually enters mainstream usage, "It's all good" originated in the African American community about four years ago, essentially a product of hip-hop/rap culture." I think tracking the phrase to ground wherever that leads is the point of the exercise, and if you know for sure where and how it originated, post the citations and the thread will naturally close. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 18:45:30 -0600 From: Greg Pulliam Subject: sorry RE: ie4 Sorry to take up ads-l space with more of this this, but the internet explorer warning came from my brother, whose system did crash after removing ie4 from his W95 desktop. And he was NOT running Office, as was suggested by E Morris. He spoke with another relative (a Windows-relative, unlike my-mac-self) who told him of other, similar problems with ie4, and told him how to fix his W95 system. The upshot--it did not totally "fry" his system as i suggested earlier, but it IS about 10 hours later and he's still repairing the damage. I think Jessie Emerson's point about installing ie4 as an individual program rather than an integrated desktop is probably the sagest advice. Again, sorry for this use of the list--maybe we should backchannel further discussion about this. Greg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:05:56 -0500 From: Blue Roses Subject: Re: "stoked" I still use and still hear "stoked" whenever I go home. I'm from the Cocoa Beach area (Central Florida). To me, "stoked" means extremely happy or "fired up". "Dude, I was so stoked last night--the waves were totally awesome!" I always associated it with "coked," which came into use during the '80's. Angela Schmidt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 17:09:48 -0800 From: Judi Sanders Subject: Re: "stoked" Chapman (NDAS,'86) reports "stoked" as excited or happily surprised. Munro (Slang U, '89) reports both excited and happy meanings for the term and notes it's been collected at UCLA since '83 (when it meant embarrassed). Dalzell (Flappers 2 Rappers,'97) traces it from surfing slang and says it entered mainstream youth slang to mean "excited" in the '60s. I had several students this year report the "happy" meaning in addition to the "excited" meaning. Judi Sanders Dr. Judi Sanders email: jasanders[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csupomona.edu Department of Communication phone: (909) 869-3527 Cal. State Polytechnic U., Pomona fax: (909) 869-4823 3801 W. Temple Blvd. dept: (909) 869-3522 Pomona, CA 91768 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The Web: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The College Slang Page: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders/slang ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:52:55 -0500 From: "(Dale F. Coye)" Subject: Muskrat Root- poisonous plant I was reading the story of Mary Jemison, captured by the Indians in 1755 or so, became a full member of the Senecas in Western NY. Great story if anyone wants to check it out. Each of her sons was murdered in the early 1800s, and in one case the murderer commits suicide by eating a large quantity of muskrat root. DARE tells us that it is the same as the plant sweet flag, with a Delaware cite, but sweet flag, I find is edible, used in making candy in fact. Maybe it was the quantity he ate, or maybe it was a different plant. Anybody know where to go to find out more about the alternative names of plants? Just curious, I have nothing in mind. Dale Coye The College of NJ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 20:10:38 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen Subject: "Stoked" I see that "stoked" is treated in _The Surfinary: A Dictionary of Surfing and Surfspeak_, by Trevor Cralle (Berkeley, CA: Ten Speed Press), l991: "stoked, adv., adj. l) excited, thrilled, jazzed--usually about the surf; chock-full of enthusiasm or satisfaction. 2) Feeling the ultimate in exhilaration; feeling high on life--can't wait to go surfing. 3) An impressed reaction to something "boss." 4) A reaction to the ultimate ride on the ultimate wave. ..." Cralle then quotes John Grissom's _Pure Stoke_ (l982) concerning the etymology of the term: "To catch a wave was (and is) to stoke the fires of the heart and soul. Hence the terms: to be stoked, the stoked life, degrees of stoke, and pure stoke." --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 19:14:03 -0800 From: "Thomas L. Clark" Subject: Re: Neck Hue Beverly Flanigan asks how we pronounce "Chauncey." Well, we pronounce it just the way it is spelled -- to rhyme with "Nancy." Thomas L. Clark Department of English University of Nevada, Las Vegas Las Vegas NV 89154-5011 702/895-3473 FAX 702/895-4801 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:47:09 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: The Full Monty > Apparently, the writer of the film (or one of the head honchos), > was at a roadside cafe one morning in England. He ordered a "cooked > breakfast", with everything that comes along with an English cooked > breakfast. The waitress asked him, "oh, the Full Monty?" > This could be one of those folk origins, of course. I'll ask > around and see if there is an actual, recorded interview with the writer > about the title. I thought someone had posted this before, but the phrase _the full monty_ meaning 'everything possible; the works; the whole nine yards' (and only meaning 'complete nudity' contextually in the film) is a British slang expression that's found back to (IIRC) 1986 in print. If this anecdote is true it could only suggest where the writer may have been reminded (or perhaps first heard of) the expression; it doesn't originate from there. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:51:11 -0500 From: Gareth Branwyn Subject: Re: Rumorazzi In a message dated 11/3/97 9:53:58 PM, AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM wrote: >Barry Popik sends these: > >--RAZZI (as in paperazzi, videorazzi, stalkerazzi, chopperazzi, et al.) [deletia] There's also the rarely used "rumorazzi," for aggressive and stealthy gossip mongers in the computer publishing biz. "Be careful at Comdex, you never know when the rumorazzi may be listening." I suppose it could be applied to gossip columnists in other spheres, but I've only heard it in the computer biz. --------------------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn Street Tech http://www.streettech.com/ "We have a website and we're not afraid to use it!" Email: garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]earthlink.net Email pager: pagegareth[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]infohwy.com ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Nov 1997 to 3 Nov 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Nov 1997 to 4 Nov 1997 There are 19 messages totalling 512 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. alternative names of plants 2. "stoked" 3. "Stoked" 4. "stoked" etc. 5. "it's all good" (6) 6. Nominations for Words of the Year 7. "so do me something" (4) 8. "git go" 9. reflexives 10. English Language Position (fwd) 11. sorry RE: ie4 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:26:16 -0600 From: Dan Goodman Subject: alternative names of plants The largest agricultural college in each state is likely to have a school of Natural Resources. (Probably formerly a school of Forestry.) Either the associated library or someone at the school/college/department of Natural Resources should be able to recommend books giving alternate names of plants. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 00:40:37 -0500 From: Robert Swets Subject: Re: "stoked" On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Emerson, Jessie J wrote: > The only usage I know of "stoked" is fired up; e.g., the team was stoked > because they won the game. That's from the late '80s/ early '90s, I > suppose. Hash smokers in the sixties stoked the bowl (added fuel, i.e., hashish). Stoked meant both the bowl and the smoker. ****************************************************************************** * __ __ COLOR ME ORANGE | | | | Voice: 954-782-4582 + Fax: 954-782-4535 R. D. Swets | | | | Dir. of Music Ministries, Boca West Com- 170 N.E. 18th Street ______| | | |______ munity UMC + http:/www.awebs.com/ Pompano Beach, FL 33060 (________) (________) bocawest/ Sun-Sentinel: bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bc.seflin.org 954-356-4635; Fax: 954-356-4676 ****************************************************************************** * ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 02:07:35 EST From: Monkmag Subject: Re: "Stoked" In a message dated 11/3/97 9:54:47 PM, you wrote: <<"To catch a wave was (and is) to stoke the fires of the heart and soul. Hence the terms: to be stoked, the stoked life, degrees of stoke, and pure stoke." --Gerald Cohen>> still, the origins might be hash-related from the 60's.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 23:42:15 -0800 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey Subject: Re: "stoked" etc. My 2 cents on some recent threads: I've only heard stoked used to mean excited about something, i.e., I'm really stoked about the game/going on the trip/ whatever. I, too, only knew "Indian giver" as somebody who gave something but didn't really mean it, and later wanted it back. I must admit, though, that when I learned it as a child (sometime between 6 & 10) I wasn't sure whether it was "Indians" who did that, or somebody who did that _to_ Indians. Yes, I have heard "so do me something." I grew up in NYC in the 1950s. The sense I have is that it's like "So sue me." Rima ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 07:54:05 -0600 From: Mary Bucholtz Subject: Re: "it's all good" Margaret Lee's explanation that "it's all good" originated in hip hop is the most likely one. Certainly when I was doing fieldwork in a California high school two years ago the kids who used it were those who were into hip-hop culture. Also, "A2Z: The Book of Rap and Hip-Hop Slang" includes the expression; unfortunately, no cites are provided. A likely place to start looking is the hip-hop magazine "The Source," based in New York. Mary Bucholtz Texas A&M University bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tamu.edu >At 07:01 PM 11/3/97 "Margaret G. Lee -English" wrote: >>Exactly what are "authentic-sounding vernacular locutions"? Who or what >>determines authenticity? While no one has a monopoly on linguistic >>innovation, the linguistic contributions of African-Americans cannot be >>overlooked. >> > >I was responding to a rather impassioned and I thought, as a general idea, >perhaps well-taken protest against the occasional tendency to assume that >any new slang not otherwise identifiable is AAVE. Linguistic innovation >happens in lots of ways, he seemed to be implying, and I thought I agreed. I >hope no-one on the list would overlook *any* kinds of contributions to >linguistic innovation, but the person to whom I was responding felt that >there was maybe a reflexive attitude at times about linguistic innovations >and AAVE. Maybe you'd quote his post and address his points if you disagree >with him; I can forward you a copy, if you like. > >You mentioned in your last post in this thread that, "as with much slang >that eventually enters mainstream usage, "It's all good" originated in the >African American community about four years ago, essentially a product of >hip-hop/rap culture." I think tracking the phrase to ground wherever that >leads is the point of the exercise, and if you know for sure where and how >it originated, post the citations and the thread will naturally close. > >Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:35:32 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka Subject: Re: Nominations for Words of the Year >Oh, I've never received a very clear definition of a "soccer mom." Is she >Republican, Democrat? Democratic Centrist? Liberal Republican? All of the >above? > >Jim Crotty (aka Monk) >How to Talk American >Monkmag[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com >www.monk.com Here is a well developed opinion of what "soccer mom" might mean: 1997 6 Mar Dolores Curran The Georgia Bulletin 5/1-3 She Finds 'Soccer Mom' Definitions Hogwash [Title]/I was emotionally geared up to write a stinging column belittling what I perceived to be a derogatory term, "soccer mom," when truth did me in. I was surprised to discover that it was coined years ago by a Denver woman running for city council. When asked for her credentials, she proudly replied, "soccer mom," and a sound byte was born./ . . . . All yuppies are not selfish, all white males are not angry, and all soccer moms do not live for and through their children./I know. I was a soccer mom, only back then we were called little league moms, a phrase often used condescendingly. I drove kids to practice and attended some of their games, but I did not put aside my life for their sports activities, which appears to be one of the interpretations of soccer mom./Another demeaning definition is that of the at-home mother who is anything but at home because she's driving her 1.8 children to ballet, orthodontist and success. The implication is that she is so frenzied that she will vote for anyone who acknowledges her existence./A third definition depicts the soccer mom in the tired stereotype of the little woman who naively feels that she can change the world by voting for a candidate who is attractive, charismatic and seems to care about home and hearth over more significant world issues./All these definitions are hogwash. Soccer mom is simply a convenient label put on the women's vote./. . . .The joke has become reality. Those little old women in tennis shoes had little girls who became soccer moms. Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:57:05 -0500 From: ALICE FABER Subject: Re: "so do me something" Beth Simon asked: | Is anyone familiar with the phrase, "So do me something" used | as a retort? Know anything about the origin? Yes..it sounds familiar. And when I read it, I "hear" it with a Yiddish accent, so perhaps it's a calque of a Yiddish expression. Just a guess, but...ya never know. Alice Faber ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:10:04 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: "so do me something" Yes, I'm wondering whether it's a Yiddish calque, or perhaps a pseudo Yiddish calque, on the order of "to know nothing about nothing". Anyone else familiar with it? beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:12:55 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: Re: "it's all good" The phrase "from the git-go" (get-go?) has been around far longer than hip-hop or rap, if that was the implication from Margaret's message. The phrase means "from the beginning" and has been used in the South for a number of years. I don't know about the origins, and it certainly could've originated from the African American community here decades ago. Jessie Emerson Margaret Lee wrote: > As with much slang that eventually enters mainstream usage, "It's all > good" originated in the African American community about four years > ago, > essentially a product of hip-hop/rap culture. That and "my bad," > "dis," hood," "git-go," "squat," and many other expressions underscore > the > long rich tradition of the linguistic creativity of African Americans. > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:22:50 -0600 From: Bonnie Briggs Subject: Re: "it's all good" That's not really true in the South were you have both white and black speakers using similar if not identical speech patterns (including grammar) in many instances. This is not an act of imitation however, it is part of the dialect. Bonnie Briggs The University of Memphis > If we could truly be "color blind" as far as vernacular is concerned, > there would not be such a big deal about "Ebonics." The fact is that as, > Claerbaut so accurately noted, "Whites rarely imitate black grammar or > black pronunciation except in derison." But as most of us know, black > slang is liberally and readily imitated. > > On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Jim Crotty wrote: > > > Date: Mon, 3 Nov 1997 02:34:26 -0500 > > From: Jim Crotty > > To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: "it's all good" > > > > In a message dated 11/2/97 6:31:11 PM, you wrote: > > > > < > > > have "all good," she does have "all that." But I agree, I prefer to be > > color-blind in most things, including vernacular. Though there are times when > > words or expressions clearly come from a very specific racial group. > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:44:22 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: "it's all good" The phrase, "from the git-go," which may be better known now from televised sports, wasn't used in (urban--such as it is) Iowa. It is common in Wisconsin, and I'm here to say, unknown in neIndiana . beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 10:07:24 -0600 From: Katherine Catmull Subject: Re: "so do me something" >| Is anyone familiar with the phrase, "So do me something" used >| as a retort? Know anything about the origin? > >Yes..it sounds familiar. And when I read it, I "hear" it with a Yiddish >accent, so perhaps it's a calque of a Yiddish expression. Just a guess, >but...ya never know. I'm reminded of Nathan Detroit in _Guys & Dolls_ singing "Sue Me"--"Call a lawyer and sue me, sue me, what can ya do me, I love you . . ." Kate Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 11:52:44 -0500 From: Linda Urschel Subject: Re: "git go" Beth, I've heard this expression many times, and it is, in fact, in my own vocabulary. I live about 25 miles west of Ft. Wayne. Linda Urschel Huntington College At 10:44 AM 11/4/97 EST, you wrote: >The phrase, "from the git-go," which may be better known now >from televised sports, wasn't used in (urban--such as it is) Iowa. >It is common in Wisconsin, and I'm here to say, unknown in neIndiana >. > >beth simon >assistant professor, linguistics and english >indiana university purdue university >simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 13:28:05 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: reflexives In connection with the below: Just a short observation, since the long answer would take a dissertation (or two): grammarians find it useful to distinguish reflexives from other anaphoric expressions on formal grounds. In English, reflexives all have the form "X-self"; other (pronominal) expressions may occur in the same syntactic frame with the same referential interpretation (i.e., as coreferential to the antecedent), but are not reflexive if they do not have the "X-self" shape. That way we can talk about whether a given speaker or a given dialect allows or requires a reflexive in a context like "I'm gonna get {me/myself} a beer" or "John complained to me about that story about {him [= John]/himself}". Briefly, reflexives and non-reflexive pronouns tend to show up in comple- mentary distribution (where you get one, you don't get the other) as markers of coreference, the distinction defined by whether the anaphor and antecedent are in the same minimal domain, e.g. within the same clause (I shaved {myself/*me}, I want you to shave {me/*myself}). But various other semantic and stylistic factors play a role as well, as the cases below (and the variation governing them) show. A recent discussion in American Speech is worth consulting: Parker et al. (1990), "Untriggered reflexive pronouns in English", Am. Sp. 65: 50-69. Hope this helps. ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- In a message dated 11/2/97 3:15:45 PM, you wrote: <> I have noticed this too.... Michael Lane, a southerner from Arkansas, might say, "fix you some greens?" Is that what you mean? Since I am not a trained linguist, I am interested in knowing how you define a reflexive. Any short answers on that subject appreciated. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 15:07:59 -0800 From: Gail Stygall Subject: English Language Position (fwd) The English Department of the University of Washington is seeking applicants for a position in English Language Studies at the Assistant Professor rank. Ph.D. is required by the date of appointment; demonstrated excellence in teaching. Areas of English language study: discourse analysis, stylistics, historical linguistics, language acquisition and pedagogy. Teaching duties include the full range of English languages courses in the undergraduate curriculum, primarily to English major planning for teaching certification; graduate teaching in Language and Rhetoric track in M.A. and Ph.D. program. Letter and vita only by November 10, 1997, to Professor Shawn Wong, Chair, Department of English, Box 354330, University of Washington, Seattle WA 98195-4330. The University of Washington is building a culturally diverse faculty and strongly encourages applications from female and minority candidates. AA/EOE. ______________________________________________________________________________ Gail Stygall (206) 543-2190 Director, Expository Writing Program Editor, _CCCC Bibliography of Composition and Rhetoric_ English, Box 354330, University of Washington, Seattle WA 98195-4330 ______________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 18:36:20 -0500 From: Peggy Smith Subject: Re: "so do me something" There is a line from the song "Sue Me" in the musical "Guys and Dolls" where Nathan Detroit sings to Adelaide: "Sue me, sue me, what can ya do me? I love you!" In the song, the Yiddish expression , "Nu?" is also used. The slang in the show is very much mixed up with New York Yiddish slang, not so much due to Ring Lardner, the author of the original Broadway gangster stories, but whoever adapted it for the stage- and I can't remember offhand who that was. MIght there be a connection to "so do me something"? Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 20:57:52 -0500 From: "Margaret G. Lee -English" Subject: Re: "it's all good" To be true to its African-American/"Ebonics" pronunciation, the phrase is git-go. Mainstream speakers have tried to "standardize" or correct it by pronouncing it "get-go." On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Emerson, Jessie J wrote: > Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:12:55 -0600 > From: Emerson, Jessie J > To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: "it's all good" > > The phrase "from the git-go" (get-go?) has been around far longer than > hip-hop or rap, if that was the implication from Margaret's message. > The phrase means "from the beginning" and has been used in the South for > a number of years. I don't know about the origins, and it certainly > could've originated from the African American community here decades > ago. > > Jessie Emerson > > Margaret Lee wrote: > > As with much slang that eventually enters mainstream usage, "It's all > > good" originated in the African American community about four years > > ago, > > essentially a product of hip-hop/rap culture. That and "my bad," > > "dis," hood," "git-go," "squat," and many other expressions underscore > > the > > long rich tradition of the linguistic creativity of African Americans. > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 21:39:30 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" Subject: Re: sorry RE: ie4 Internet Explorer 4 is a new program. Always be wary and careful with a new computer program--no matter what brand of computer you use. Jeutonne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 22:40:31 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: "it's all good" >To be true to its African-American/"Ebonics" pronunciation, the phrase is >git-go. Mainstream speakers have tried to "standardize" or correct it by >pronouncing it "get-go." Not necessarily AAVE pronunciation. General Southern. There's even a chain of convenience stores called Git-n-Go. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Nov 1997 to 4 Nov 1997 ********************************************** 06 Nov 1997 00:00:14 -0500 eply-to: American Dialect Society Message-id: <0EJ700NAXKMQ8S[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACS2.BYU.EDU> Status: U X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 There are 22 messages totalling 530 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "so do me something" - Reply to Beth Simon's Inquiry (3) 2. "so do me something" 3. /gIt/ v. /gEt/ for "from the git-go" 4. reflexives 5. /gIt/ vs. /gEt/ 6. "it's all good" (2) 7. "git-go and southernisms" 8. Garbage In, Garbage Out (fwd) 9. Guys and Dolls author (2) 10. RE>Garbage In, Garbage Out (fwd) (2) 11. Copyediting query (2) 12. 13. Nominations for Words of the Year (2) 14. Bee's Knees 15. Indian giver ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 23:29:26 -0600 From: Samuel Jones Subject: Re: "so do me something" - Reply to Beth Simon's Inquiry >Is anyone familiar with the phrase, "So do me something" used >as a retort? Know anything about the origin? > >thanks, >beth simon >assistant professor, linguistics and english >indiana university purdue university >simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ______________________________________________________ Nu (a Russian word meaning "well"), so I'll tell you . . . The form of the expression "So do me something" is fundamentally German; however, Hochdeutsch (High German) would never employ such expressions as "Tu mir etwas" or "Also,tu mir etwas" or "Denn, tu mir 'was," because these expressions mean "Do something TO me" and not "FOR me." The equivalent of "So, do me something" in Modern High German would be "Also, [bitte] tu etwas fuer mich [bitte]." Yiddish employs primarily German as its basis, plus a "bissel" Russian, Hebrew, and, so who knows what else? Such a Mischung! (The Yiddish word "mish," meaning "mixture" or "mix," is also derived from German.) I. too, suspect that the English is a sort of translation from some not-too kosher German? It is quite possible and plausible that Ms. Simon's inquired-about expression is indeed derived out of German and comes to English via Yiddish, as is seen in a number of responses to her inquiry. Still, we have a bunch of expressions, like "So, tell me something." "So, do me a favor?" "So, sing me a couple more verses." "So., give me a little more time." "So, how's by you?" "So, give me another helping cheesecake?" "So, you didn't like my challah?" So, Simon, say maybe I'm a schlump, but don't sue me IF my shtik is shrecklich! _______________________________ DR. SAMUEL M. JONES Professor Emertitus Music & Latin American Studies University of Wisconsin-Madison "Pen-y-Bryn" - 122 Shepard Terrace Madison, WI 53705-3614 USA _______________________________ EMAIL: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu _______________________________ TELEPHONE: 608 + 233-2150 _______________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 00:32:53 -0500 From: ALICE FABER Subject: Re: "so do me something" from beth again: | Yes, I'm wondering whether it's a Yiddish calque, or perhaps | a pseudo Yiddish calque, on the order of "to know nothing | about nothing". ^^^^^ Please, beth, in authentic pseudo-Yiddish, this is "to know nothing FROM nothing". Believe me, I know from pseudo-Yiddish. Alice Faber ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 01:20:19 +0000 From: Ashlea Allen Subject: Re: /gIt/ v. /gEt/ for "from the git-go" >> Not necessarily AAVE pronunciation. General Southern. There's even a chain of convenience stores called Git-n-Go.>> General Southern, and also South Midland (Lower North?/Upper South?) -- or at least in southern/Appalachian Ohio -- the pronunciation of get is /gIt/. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 11:49:12 +0100 From: elisa vazquez iglesias Subject: Re: reflexives Could you say "Shall I fix yourself a sandwich?"? What about "Shall I fix himself a sandwich?"? Do you find any grammatical difference between these two sentences? Elisa Vazquez ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 07:55:29 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: "so do me something" - Reply to Beth Simon's Inquiry Dear Sam Jones, Yes, and, no. "So do me something" is -so do something to me- -- a rhetorical challenge, on the order of "You don't like what I just said? Tough." beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:56:06 +0000 From: Jim Rader Subject: Re: /gIt/ vs. /gEt/ The articulation of with [I] is recorded in Peter Levins rhyme dictionary (1570) and by Christopher Cooper (1685). Dobson includes it in instances of early raising of Middle English to between [g] or [j] and a dental; other examples occur in , , , and . There are plenty of examples of /gIt/ in English dialects (see Wright and the Survey of English Dialects dictionary). Despite the antiquity of this pronunciation it still seems to be some sort of register marker when people actually spell it as in .. Jim Rader ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 08:48:29 -0600 From: Bonnie Briggs Subject: Re: "it's all good" I've heard this expression all of my life. It was common to here someone say something like "You were wrong from the git-go." It was usually used to mean "from the beginning". It is probably more a product of Southern English than what people refer to as Ebonics. Bonnie Briggs The University of Memphis > To be true to its African-American/"Ebonics" pronunciation, the phrase is > git-go. Mainstream speakers have tried to "standardize" or correct it by > pronouncing it "get-go." > > On Tue, 4 Nov 1997, Emerson, Jessie J wrote: > > > Date: Tue, 4 Nov 1997 09:12:55 -0600 > > From: Emerson, Jessie J > > To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU > > Subject: Re: "it's all good" > > > > The phrase "from the git-go" (get-go?) has been around far longer than > > hip-hop or rap, if that was the implication from Margaret's message. > > The phrase means "from the beginning" and has been used in the South for > > a number of years. I don't know about the origins, and it certainly > > could've originated from the African American community here decades > > ago. > > > > Jessie Emerson > > > > Margaret Lee wrote: > > > As with much slang that eventually enters mainstream usage, "It's all > > > good" originated in the African American community about four years > > > ago, > > > essentially a product of hip-hop/rap culture. That and "my bad," > > > "dis," hood," "git-go," "squat," and many other expressions underscore > > > the > > > long rich tradition of the linguistic creativity of African Americans. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:03:08 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing Subject: Re: "it's all good" >As with much slang that eventually enters mainstream usage, "It's all >good" originated in the African American community about four years ago.... By odd coincidence, actually, I just heard the phrase used in real life (whatever that is...!) for the first time this morning, on the subway in Manhattan, from a young male about 20 or so (who seemed primarily of Asian not of African descent, though that says absolutely nothing about the phrase's origin of course -- I did see the generalized citation stating AAVE origin that was posted yesterday). Quite openly and at some length, he was explaining to a young woman, with vivid examples, that he and his current namorada bicker a lot etc. etc. etc., "but hey, it's all good," and then he was off like a shot onto another topic. Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 10:18:12 -0500 From: Carol Andrus Subject: Re: "git-go and southernisms" I grew up in Manatee County Florida just after the 2nd WW, and all our neighbors were southern whites, with roots up in Georgia and Alabama. They frequently used the term "from the git-go." Very rich speech -- they'd go up to Georgia for a family reunion and see a lot of their "shirttail folk" -- distant relatives, and an old aunt who was "older than dirt." "B.J.--you're storifying ta me agin (lying)!" We were always invited to come set a "spell on the porch." My childhood friend Sylvia attended my daughter's wedding in England last summer, and, while talking to a London woman, Sylvia said, "Oh, let's go set a spell out on the patio and chew the fat." I hurriedly explained that it meant just to "sit a while and chat." The British woman's reply was a quick classic: "Oh," she said, "I thought it had something to do with witchcraft." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 13:02:26 -0500 From: "MELISSA S. SMITH" Subject: Re: "so do me something" - Reply to Beth Simon's Inquiry Since we are talking about unusual sayings, I'd like someone to tell me the origin of "What can I do ya for?" I've heard this a lot lately and it gets on my nerves. It has a rude undertone that I don't like. Where did this come from? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 14:29:22 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Garbage In, Garbage Out (fwd) Barry Popik has asked me to forward this message to ADS-L about the expression "garbage in, garbage out." (This is, in fact, found in RHHDAS under "GIGO"; we consider the abbreviation, but not the proverbial expression, to be slang, but our earliest is the 1964 cite from Oxford.) Jesse Sheidlower ----------------- Begin forwarded message from Barry Popik ------------ > > The Concise Oxford Dictionary of Proverbs has 1964. It's not in RHHDAS. > > I found it (with an illustration) on page 28, Aerospace Accident and > Maintenance Review, May 1961. > > --Barry > (who went to the dentist again and is now in pain, causing him to be an > antidentite) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 15:21:46 -0600 From: Dan Goodman Subject: Guys and Dolls author I believe the author of the stories was Damon Runyon, not Ring Lardner. Runyon was, by the way, born in Manhattan -- Kansas. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:33:29 -0500 From: Grant Barrett Subject: RE>Garbage In, Garbage Out (fwd) What, pray tell, has become of Mr. Popik and his contributions to the list? -------------------------------------- From: Jesse T Sheidlower Barry Popik has asked me to forward this message... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:47:06 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: RE>Garbage In, Garbage Out (fwd) > What, pray tell, has become of Mr. Popik and his contributions to the list? He's still subscribed to the list, but for now he has decided to stop participating actively. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:08:35 -0500 From: Orin Hargraves Subject: Copyediting query Would someone be kind enough to supply me with the proper name of and subscription information for the list devoted to copy editors? I believe it's copyediting-l or some such, but I've lost all record of it. Any help= most appreciated. If there are any lists devoted to regional or other sub-dialects of American English, it would also be very useful to know about these. with best wishes, Orin Hargraves OKH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:14:27 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: Copyediting query > Would someone be kind enough to supply me with the proper name of and > subscription information for the list devoted to copy editors? I believe > it's copyediting-l or some such, but I've lost all record of it. Any help= > most appreciated. It is copyediting-l, and it's based at Cornell. To subscribe, send E-mail to listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu. In the body of your message, include only the command sub copyediting-l your name where your name is your real name (e.g., J. Q. Public), not your E-mail address. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:09:30 -0600 From: Anna C Paschal Subject: I'm trying to find information about the expression "the bee's knees" which is used in the same manner as "the cat's pajamas". For example, one might say "He's the bee's knees"--meaning he's the greatest, attractive, or any other positive attribute. If anyone is familiar with this expression or any variation of it, please let me know. Anna Paschal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 17:28:08 -0600 From: Cynthia Bernstein Subject: Re: Nominations for Words of the Year Has "cookies"--that is, those crumbs that get left on your computer after various internet communications--been considered for WOTY? Cynthia Bernstein Auburn Univ. On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Allan Metcalf wrote: > Barry Popik sends these: > > --RAZZI (as in paperazzi, videorazzi, stalkerazzi, chopperazzi, et al.) > > The Word-of-the-Year need not be a "new" word during the year. The most > influential word of the year will do. "Ebonics" was two decades old, but was > still a WOTY contender last year. "Soccer mom" also was older than a year. > > "Show Me the Money!" is the Phrase-of-the-Year. The movie JERRY MAGUIRE came > out for the Christmas season of 1996, but the movie's catchphrase became > popular in January 1997. > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 1956 21:22:13 +0000 From: Tom Dalzell Subject: Re: Bee's Knees Anna: In FLAPPERS 2 RAPPERS: 20th CENTURY AMRICAN YOUTH SLANG, at pages 20-22, I spend a fair amount of time with the animal expressions of the Flapper era. "Cat's pajamas" and "cat's meow" were the most popular of the dozens of animal-based slang expressions of approval of the 1920's. Ranking words or expressions by popularity is often an exercise in futility, but "bee's knees" was certainly a strong contender for third place after its cat cousins. The list was nearly endless, but by the end of the decade the construction had largely burned itself out. One still hears or reads an occasional "cat's meow" or "cat's pajamas", usually in affected advertising or headlines. Tom Dalzell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:28:50 -0500 From: Peggy Smith Subject: Re: Guys and Dolls author Dan, Duh! My bad. Of course Damon Runyon wrote the stories that went into "Guys and Dolls". I had just come from another listserv where Ring Lardner was being discussed, and I guess I had him on the brain. Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 16:55:48 -0800 From: "A. Maberry" Subject: Re: Nominations for Words of the Year > > On Mon, 3 Nov 1997, Allan Metcalf wrote: > > > Barry Popik sends these: > > > > --RAZZI (as in paperazzi, videorazzi, stalkerazzi, chopperazzi, et al.) > > > > The Word-of-the-Year need not be a "new" word during the year. The most > > influential word of the year will do. "Ebonics" was two decades old, but was > > still a WOTY contender last year. "Soccer mom" also was older than a year. > > > > "Show Me the Money!" is the Phrase-of-the-Year. The movie JERRY MAGUIRE came > > out for the Christmas season of 1996, but the movie's catchphrase became > > popular in January 1997. > > > Maybe the Jerry Maguire phrase of the year could be reduced to simply "Show me the ________!" In Seattle during the baseball playoffs there were bumper stickers "Show me the Pennant!" (This phrase has fallen out of favor, for obvious reasons.) Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 5 Nov 1997 19:55:50 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen Subject: Re: Indian giver Recently there have been some queries about "Indian giver." I see that the Dear Abby column treated the expression earlier this year; my copy is from the _St. Louis Post-Dispatch_, Feb. 4, 1997, sec. D, p.2/1-2; title: "'Indian Giver' Definition Opens Up Culture Clash." I have no idea about the accuracy of the replies Abby received and printed; is there a specialist on Indian cultures out there who can confirm or dismiss the suggestions advanced? Here are two of the replies she printed: 1) "The term 'Indian giver' has to do with honor. Indians were great gift givers. If the person receiving the gift did something that was dishonorable or otherwise brought shame, the giver could ask for the gift to be returned. The giver did not want to be guilty by association." 2) "In the Indian culture on the East Coast, you could "borrow" a tool, use it and return it in the Golden Rule tradition. ...When the Indian would "give" an item to someone because it was praised or needed, the settlers complained when the owner wanted it back--hence the name 'Indian giver'." --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Nov 1997 to 5 Nov 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 5 Nov 1997 to 6 Nov 1997 There are 35 messages totalling 884 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. bee's knees 2. "so do me something" - Reply to Beth Simon's Inquiry (2) 3. (2) 4. "it's all good" (2) 5. Nominations for Words of the Year (3) 6. new subject (5) 7. "my bad" 8. "cookies" (3) 9. subscription 10. "my bad" and other bounceball terminology (2) 11. RE>Garbage In, Garbage Out (fwd) 12. Cookies (3) 13. Reflexives 14. reflexives 15. Bring Back Barry (2) 16. good travel (2) 17. "git-go and southernisms" 18. peach-orchard 19. Barry Popik ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 00:30:01 -0500 From: Donna Metcalf Subject: Re: bee's knees College romance, 1962. I still have a silver charm bracelet of a beehive. My then boyfriend, a Richard Gere look alike from Franklin Square New York, always said "It's the bee's knees." I think it's a great expression. Now high school kids and college kids say "It's the bomb." Meaning the best! Donna ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 01:31:14 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: "so do me something" - Reply to Beth Simon's Inquiry >Since we are talking about unusual sayings, I'd like someone to tell me >the origin of "What can I do ya for?" It has been around a long time, at least in Texas. Just a playful switching of words to get under someone's skin if it's thin. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:25:59 +0300 From: derya karapinar Subject: Subscribe / American dialect society/Derya Karapinar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 15:28:49 +0300 From: derya karapinar Subject: Subscribe/American dialect society/Derya Karapinar ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:07:49 -0500 From: Jim Crotty Subject: Re: "it's all good" In a message dated 11/5/97 7:04:57 AM, you wrote: <<>As with much slang that eventually enters mainstream usage, "It's all >good" originated in the African American community about four years ago.... By odd coincidence, actually, I just heard the phrase used in real life (whatever that is...!) for the first time this morning, on the subway in Manhattan, from a young male about 20 or so (who seemed primarily of Asian not of African descent, though that says absolutely nothing about the phrase's origin of course -- I did see the generalized citation stating AAVE origin that was posted yesterday). Quite openly and at some length, he was explaining to a young woman, with vivid examples, that he and his current namorada bicker a lot etc. etc. etc., "but hey, it's all good," and then he was off like a shot onto another topic.>> Perhaps he's what might termed a "yo boy" or a "wigga"--a non-black person imitating the speech, mores, and gestures of black men, often black rap stars and "b-boys." As I note in How To Talk American, lots of so-called "black talk," and especially black rap talk, has migrated beyond that culture. Coo? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:19:41 -0600 From: Tom Head Subject: Re: "it's all good" On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, Bonnie Briggs wrote: > I've heard this expression all of my life. It was common to here someone say > something like "You were wrong from the git-go." It was usually used to mean > "from the beginning". It is probably more a product of Southern > English than what people refer to as Ebonics. I've heard it all of my life as well, as a Mississippian. Then again, there is a massive mutual influence between what people refer to as Ebonics and Southern English, which has (I would imagine) increased a great deal over the past twenty years due largely to integration. Of course, as a Southerner, I'm trying to figure out how "git-go" is pronounced differently from "get-go". ;o) Tom Head tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netdoor.com http://www2.netdoor.com/~tlh "The first duty in life is to be as artificial as possible. What the second duty is, no one has yet discovered." -- Oscar Wilde ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 08:21:15 -0600 From: Tom Head Subject: Re: "so do me something" - Reply to Beth Simon's Inquiry On Wed, 5 Nov 1997, MELISSA S. SMITH wrote: > Since we are talking about unusual sayings, I'd like someone to tell me > the origin of "What can I do ya for?" I've heard this a lot lately and > it gets on my nerves. It has a rude undertone that I don't like. Where > did this come from? I think it's a corruption of "What can I do for ya?", an informal business greeting. Tom Head tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netdoor.com http://www2.netdoor.com/~tlh "The first duty in life is to be as artificial as possible. What the second duty is, no one has yet discovered." -- Oscar Wilde ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:39:15 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka Subject: Re: Nominations for Words of the Year >Has "cookies"--that is, those crumbs that get left on your computer after >various internet communications--been considered for WOTY? > >Cynthia Bernstein >Auburn Univ. > Do you mean the downloaded copies of Telnet and what not that Web sites send you automatically--or something else? Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:30:56 -0500 From: STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN Subject: Re: new subject Has anyone ever figured out the origin of the phrase "hell fire?" As used by Jeff Foxworthy. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:25:14 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: "my bad" First of all, thanks for the input. The Bob Greene column has in fact appeared, in last Monday's Chicago Tribune. A colleague writing on a different topic appends the note >p.s. We read your name quoted in Bob Greene's article on 'my bad'. I >think it's a good sign when linguists are quoted in the same section of >the paper where Cathy vaunts her neuroses, Brenda Starr gets her man, and >Ann Landers excretes advice. Unfortunately, while I was waiting for the smoking gun before calling Greene back, he put the column to press. Evidently (I haven't seen it yet, but it will eventually be posted on the archives at http://www.chicago.tribune.com/ columns/greene/archives/97/archives.htm) his conclusion coincides with the general consensus here: origin in pick-up basketball games, gradual incorpor- ation from AAVE to general youth culture through other sports contexts, helped along by that occurrence in the movie "Clueless". --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:36:02 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: Re: new subject I've always assumed it was some sort of shortened biblical reference relating to "hellfire and brimstone." Jessie Emerson From Steve Alan Nolden > Has anyone ever figured out the origin of the phrase "hell fire?" As > used by Jeff Foxworthy. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 09:37:05 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: "cookies" "Cookies" are files that are downloaded to your hard drive when you connect to certain Web sites. These files contain your computer information that the Web site has recorded. When you return to a site that has loaded a "cookie" on your machine, the site can use your "cookie" information for various and sundry site documentation purposes. Internet Explorer has a folder called "Cookies". You can remove them if it bothers you. Jessie > >Has "cookies"--that is, those crumbs that get left on your computer > after > >various internet communications--been considered for WOTY? > > > >Cynthia Bernstein > >Auburn Univ. > > > > Do you mean the downloaded copies of Telnet and what not that Web > sites > send you automatically--or something else? > > Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:53:06 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka Subject: Re: "cookies" >"Cookies" are files that are downloaded to your hard drive when you >connect to certain Web sites. These files contain your computer >information that the Web site has recorded. When you return to a site >that has loaded a "cookie" on your machine, the site can use your >"cookie" information for various and sundry site documentation purposes. > >Internet Explorer has a folder called "Cookies". You can remove them if >it bothers you. > >Jessie It seems to me that a better choice of terms would be "ticks" or "fleas" or even "stickers." Thanks for the information. Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:19:00 -0500 From: "W. Randolph Beckford" Subject: subscription Subscribe / American dialect society/Derya Karapinar Thanks! Randy Beckford Dickinson College Carlisle, PA ***************** "Explicit hoc totum; pro Christo da mihi potem." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:37:19 -0600 From: Cynthia Bernstein Subject: Re: Nominations for Words of the Year Exactly, I mean the stuff that Web sites leave on your hard drive. Cynthia Bernstein Dept. of English Auburn University, AL 36849-5203 On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Wayne Glowka wrote: > >Has "cookies"--that is, those crumbs that get left on your computer after > >various internet communications--been considered for WOTY? > > > >Cynthia Bernstein > >Auburn Univ. > > > > Do you mean the downloaded copies of Telnet and what not that Web sites > send you automatically--or something else? > > Wayne Glowka > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 10:39:27 -0600 From: Cynthia Bernstein Subject: Re: "cookies" Netscape, too, has a cookies folder. You can set Netscape not to receive cookies. Cindy On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, Wayne Glowka wrote: > >"Cookies" are files that are downloaded to your hard drive when you > >connect to certain Web sites. These files contain your computer > >information that the Web site has recorded. When you return to a site > >that has loaded a "cookie" on your machine, the site can use your > >"cookie" information for various and sundry site documentation purposes. > > > >Internet Explorer has a folder called "Cookies". You can remove them if > >it bothers you. > > > >Jessie > > It seems to me that a better choice of terms would be "ticks" or "fleas" or > even "stickers." > > Thanks for the information. > > Wayne Glowka > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:39:51 -0500 From: "MELISSA S. SMITH" Subject: Re: new subject I think that "hell fire" is self explanitory. It's just an expression that describes just how bad something is. How better to do this then to compare it to Hell's fire? I've heard this for years. My grandparents said this constantly. Melissa S. Smith mssmit01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN wrote: > Has anyone ever figured out the origin of the phrase "hell fire?" As > used by Jeff Foxworthy. > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:08:33 -0600 From: "Dickie M. Heaberlin" Subject: Re: "my bad" and other bounceball terminology In addition to "my bad" there are many other words and phrases used on the basketball court that weren't used when I started playing in 1945. And there are some that have been lost. Back then when someone stayed back on offense in order to get a long pass and make an easy basketball, he was called a "radioman" or "snowbird." I never hear "radioman" any more and haven't for many years, and "snowbird" isn't used much any more either. We used to play "bounceball." Now people "shoot some hoops." The phrases "pick-up" and "make it, take it" came in, I think, about the same time as "my bad." Since the sixties we have new names for positions, too--point guard, shooting guard, wings, and power forwards. And sports announcers have added accounting terms such as "triple double" Rule changes have led us to coin "three pointer," "possession arrow," "twenty-four second clock," and "lane violation." Dick Heaberlin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 11:02:42 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" Subject: Re: new subject Related to "hell fire" are "shit fire" and "shoot fire" (all with with fire pronounced similar to far) in the South. > -----Original Message----- > From: MELISSA S. SMITH [SMTP:mssmit01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu] > Sent: Thursday, 06 November, 1997 10:40 AM > To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU > Subject: Re: new subject > > I think that "hell fire" is self explanitory. It's just an expression > that describes just how bad something is. How better to do this then > to > compare it to Hell's fire? I've heard this for years. My > grandparents > said this constantly. > > Melissa S. Smith > mssmit01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu > > On Thu, 6 Nov 1997, STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN wrote: > > > Has anyone ever figured out the origin of the phrase "hell fire?" > As > > used by Jeff Foxworthy. > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:22:27 -0600 From: "Dickie M. Heaberlin" Subject: Re: RE>Garbage In, Garbage Out (fwd) >> What, pray tell, has become of Mr. Popik and his contributions to the list? > >He's still subscribed to the list, but for now he has decided to >stop participating actively. > >Jesse Sheidlower > I miss his wit and research. I wish he would reconsider and participate actively again. Dick Heaberlin ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 6 Nov 1997 12:17:44 -0500 From: Gareth Branwyn Subject: Re: Cookies >Do you mean the downloaded copies of Telnet and what not that Web sites >send you automatically--or something else? > >Wayne Glowka Cookies are preference files that a website keeps on *your* computer. For instance, if you set up an account on the New York Times site, the password that you've asked them to remember is stored on your end via a cookie. If you define a series of preferences on a customizable website, all th