There are 30 messages totalling 808 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Preferred Terms (5) 2. naming of RU486 (2) 3. Relics (2) 4. Hallowe'en greetings? (5) 5. offending idioms (5) 6. Boulder Dam 7. Happy Halloween (4) 8. relics (2) 9. Response to Terms (2) 10. Felicitations 11. NEW: POS302-L - Race/Ethnicity Book Review List (fwd) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: Preferred Terms i think more than region, age is a factor in preferred term--see papers by geneva smitherman and john baugh in _american speech_ wrt "african american". polls about terms for people of african descent are highly age-differentiated, due, i'm sure, to the fact that older people lived through more positive usages of what are now considered pejorative terms. of course, the opposite can be observed in the reclamation of pejorative terms, such as the word "queer", which is much more enthusiastically embraced by younger people. older people are stereotyped as claiming they can't get over the pejorative use of it--perhaps because when they were subject to taunts of "queer" (as youngsters), there were no positive role models who were openly not heterosexual. of course, anyone whose long-evolved self-concept is very based in "race", "ethnicity", "sexual orientation", etc. will be more resistant to accepting new terms, since this may call into question their self- concept and interaction with the group, or may seem to invalidate experience they've already had. e.g., if some people claim "we're not american indians--that's white people's terminology, based on their own ignorance", then if i've been living my (esp. adult) life thinking of myself as "american indian", i've just been told that my identity (which is nearly all that i am) is, in part, the construction of someone other than myself, and, in particular, someone who i define myself in contrast (and perhaps, polysemously, in opposition) to. i find the issue of prefered terms particularly troubling in dictionaries. while i see the necessity of usage notes for terms that are likely to offend, usage notes stating preference for a term are a bit orwellian, i think, and, more importantly, often inaccurate. (i argue this point in _dictionaries_ 1991.) for example, the random house webster's college dictionary (1991) states in the usage note for _black_ that "by the close of the 1980s, African-American, urged by leaders in the American black community, had begun to supplant _black_ in both print and speech, esp. as a term of self-reference." now, i won't argue that "african(-)american" is now used instead of "black" in some contexts. however, a few other ill-supported assumptions are allowed here. first, the "esp. as self-reference" part. as RHWCD was going to press, the joint center for political and economic studies was publishing the results of a survey showing that only 22-28% of registered voters with predominantly black african ancestry prefered "african american" over "black"--with the young, educated, and northern u.s. respondents preferring it most. however, the "mainstream" media replaced "black" with "african(-)american" at a much faster rate, with _time_, _newsweek_, _the new york times_ and many other newspapers making editorial statements explaining their adoption of the term within 6 months (usu. less) of jesse jackson's speech that introduced people from outside the community to "african(-)american". (remember, it took _the new york times_ nearly 20 years to give in to pressure to use "ms." for women who prefer it.) jackson, in that speech, continues to use "black" after stating a preference for "african american", as do most people i know who identify as "african american". however, it is not at all uncommon in liberal white circles for a (white) person to be corrected by a white person when s/he says "black" (saying "you mean, 'african american'"). whereas "african american" seems to have been adopted as a companion term to "black" in self-reference, it is supplanting "black" in certain white circles. witness _self_ magazine's usage of "african-american hair", as if hair has nationality and "african" or "afro- caribbean" hair is not suited to the same kind of treatment. (i have a lot of hair stories!) the other issue is the orthography in this usage note. this is just based on impression, but i've found that while many "mainstream" media outlets hyphenate "african-american" (and some don't), most of the media owned/edited/aimed at black americans and writing by individual african americans (not subject to the editorial conventions of mainstream media) don't (in my experience) hyphenate. so, is "african-american" really supplanting "black" as a term of self-reference? or is "african american" joining "black" as a term of self-reference, while "african-american" is supplanting "black" in use by some outgroup members? didn't mean to write an entire paper here, but get me started and i have a hard time stopping. references: baugh, john. 1991. the politicization of changing terms of self- reference among american slave descendants. _american speech_ 66:2.133-46. murphy, m. lynne. 1991. defining racial labels: problems and promise in american dictionaries. _dictionaries_ 13:43-64. [no author] 1991. poll says blacks prefer to be called "black". _jet_ 78(11 feb):8. smitherman, geneva. 1991. what is africa to me? language, ideology, and african american. _american speech_ 66:2.115-32. ______________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 South Africa "Language without meaning is meaningless." --Roman Jakobson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 06:46:34 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: Preferred Terms Dr. Murphy - An extraordinary summary! Birrell Walsh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 08:57:00 CST From: Edward Callary TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MVS.CSO.NIU.EDU Subject: naming of RU486 Does anyone know the reasons for the naming of the abortion-inducing drug RU486? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 09:03:34 -0600 From: Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU Subject: Relics Until CD's came out, I never noticed my own use of the word "album." I think it's because a cassette also has a flip side. With CD's all around, album (and flip side) sound weird. Well, my kids correct me! A stero is no longer a turntable + amp and speakers. With technology, relics don't have to go back a generation--or else a generation has become so foreshortened that we can live through, oh, a dozen or so generations in one lifetime. On a walk recently, I said, "That dog sounds like she's in an iron lung." And someone else said, oh I remember those. The relics are also in metaphors and similes, not just direct reference. -- Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu "What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other." -Clifford Geertz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 08:51:44 -0800 From: David Harnick-Shapiro david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BUCKAROO.ICS.UCI.EDU Subject: Re: Preferred Terms On Mon, 31 Oct 1994 14:21, Michael Linn writes: In Northern Minnesota, indigenous people want to be called *American Indian*, not *Native American* and ... What are the preferred terms in other parts of the country? In reading a Canadian publication from about four years ago, I recently came across "First Peoples". Maybe someone nearer the border (than Southern California :-) can provide more info -- like, who uses it, and for whom? -------- David Harnick-Shapiro david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu Information and Computer Science University of California, Irvine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 09:10:19 -0800 From: David Harnick-Shapiro david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BUCKAROO.ICS.UCI.EDU Subject: Hallowe'en greetings? Last night was my first Hallowe'en as a homeowner. Apart from a disappointingly low turnout (anyone want several pounds of left- over candy? :-) it all went quite well. I was struck, though, by one thing: in addition to the recitation of "Trick or treat!" and "Thank you!", a number of children (more toward the 8-10 age range?) shouted out "Happy Hallowe'en!" as they left our door. Is saying "Happy Hallowe'en" customary in other parts of the country? (I grew up here, so I'm disinclined to think it a local custom of which I was unaware.) Maybe I just got a bunch of polite trick-or-treaters. (For some reason I still can't put my finger on, the way these kids said "Happy Hallowe'en!" reminded me of people shouting "Merry Christmas!" as they left a Christmas celebration. Maybe the September onset of Christmas advertising is having an effect...) -------- David Harnick-Shapiro david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu Information and Computer Science University of California, Irvine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: Preferred Terms Dr. Murphy - An extraordinary summary! Birrell Walsh thanks for the compliment! lynne ______________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 South Africa "Language without meaning is meaningless." --Roman Jakobson ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 12:32:15 -0400 From: Bob Lancaster SLANCASTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU Subject: offending idioms Sali writes Having lived in the South for 10 years with African-American and White American friends, I have a hard time contextualizing Roger Vanderveen's claim that the term "Nigger" is acceptable and used by lots of people in the South. Although I suspect that a lot of people here are getting pretty tired of this topic (as I am) I guess I can't let it go without saying how ridiculous the term "African American" sounds to me. Many of the persons so denominated haven't been anywhere near Africa for a hundred and fifty years. And I have to add that if I saw it paired with "White Americans" on a freshman theme I'd mark it "Parallelism !". White American goes with Brown American, Red American, Yellow American, Black American--if we believe in UFO's maybe Green American. Actually, this may be better than the geographical division, though. Here we are forced into a denominational thicket--European American (probably a bare majority these days), Scandanavian American, Southeast Asian American, Phillipine Island American, South American American. And we're still not out of the woods, since we don't know if Sali includes Egyptians, Moroccans, Algerians, et al., among African Americans. What's wrong with blacks? Most of the people I know have have used it since the sixties, and in those halcyon days it was beautiful. In my opinion, no offensive term is less abusive than any other. If a person resents any term used in reference to them [sic], then users of the term should discontinue using it. It is a simple matter of civility. Of course, this sounds great, and civility and good manners are the foundation of a society worth living in. But its universality here is disturbing. Are we truly barred from any language that anyone might find unpleasant? No one can feel good about being crippled, but should we really expunge the word from the vocabulary? Do we stop reading Shakespeare and Chaucer, or Bowdlerize them? Many people without hair don't like to hear the work "bald." What do we call them? Hair Challenged? It is all too possible to sanitize language until it's essentially dead, and it seems to me we're well on the way. I am deeply embarrassed to hear someone say "nigger," I think mostly mostly because it carries such a historical freight of hatred and contempt. (Same for "faggot," though, and quite a few others.) But I think we need to be very careful about PCing words just because they might upset someone. There's a lot of hypocrisy in PC, and language shapes thought. If we can only think in abstractions we've lost touch with reality. Bob Lancaster SUNY-emeritus, English slancaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]colgate.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 13:15:23 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: Hallowe'en greetings? In Message Tue, 1 Nov 1994 09:10:19 -0800, David Harnick-Shapiro david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]buckaroo.ics.uci.edu writes: Last night was my first Hallowe'en as a homeowner. (...) I was struck, though, by one thing: in addition to the recitation of "Trick or treat!" and "Thank you!", a number of children (more toward the 8-10 age range?) shouted out "Happy Hallowe'en!" as they left our door. Is saying "Happy Hallowe'en" customary in other parts of the country? Last night I took my six-year old daughter trick-or-treating. Several of the people we visited wished us "Happy hallowe'en." None of the authors of the phrase sounded foreign to me. Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 10:29:10 -0800 From: THOMAS CLARK tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Re: Boulder Dam On Mon, 31 Oct 1994, James Beniger wrote: [snip] I'd like to hear Thomas Clark clarify/elaborate the sentence "Local media are careful to make the distinction between Boulder and Hoover" When newspaper writers talk about the construction phase, they use "Boulder." When they refer to anytime later than 1947 they use "Hoover." Television people (we can't really call them reporters around here) are clueless. They usually use "Hoover" for everything. Part of the confusion stems from an interesting political spat. In 1928, the paperwork was signed into law for "Boulder." In 1931, the structure was dedicated as "Hoover." In 1933, Hoover was out of the picture. The Democrats, seizing the opportunity, CHANGED the name back to "Boulder." In 1947, Congress officially (!) made the name "Hoover." A group of Boulder City old-timers who worked on the dam call themselves The '33 Club. This was the year they rid themselves of the hated sobriquet "Hoover." These are also the folks that the local newspapers used to interview. But our major regional newspaper, the Las Vegas Review Journal runs columns only by George Wills, Wm Buckley, Sobran, R. Emmet Tyrrell and others from The American Spectator. This weekend it endorsed political candidates by name and named only Republicans. It made no mention of Democrats or anyone running in non-partisan races. The RJ now has a policy of referring only to Hoover Dam in all contexts. This policy has been in effect for only about two years. (In the words of one reporter friend, "due to the failed Clinton Administration, we must use only 'Hoover Dam.'") Media watching here is interesting. Cheers, tlc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 14:59:10 -0500 From: Martha Howard UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU Subject: Happy Halloween I, too, last night was thanked and then wished a Happy Halloween by nearly everyone of the fifty or more trick or treaters who knocked on my door. I don't recall ever having heard it before. Where did it come from? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 11:20:50 -0500 From: Steve Harris etnibsd!vsh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET Subject: Re: Preferred Terms Michael Linn writes: We have had a discussion about abusive terms, but I would like to know more about preferred terms. What is the best way to address groups one is a member of. "Colleagues". -- Steve Harris - Eaton Corp. - Beverly, MA - vsh%etnibsd[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uunet.uu.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 15:22:45 EST From: Beth Simon SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET Subject: relics I just came from teaching The Study of English and a discussion of discourse routines/telephone conversations. Someone said "First you dial a number." I asked, "How many of you have dial phones?" A moment of silence, then everyone cracked up. beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 16:17:18 EST From: Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: Hallowe'en greetings? David Harnick-Shapiro writes, Last night was my first Hallowe'en as a homeowner. Mine also Apart from a disappointingly low turnout Not here--they came in by the carload: 150 kids in little over an hour (anyone want several pounds of left- over candy? :-) Sure!!! I was struck, though, by one thing: in addition to the recitation of "Trick or treat!" and "Thank you!", a number of children (more toward the 8-10 age range?) shouted out "Happy Hallowe'en!" as they left our door. Is saying "Happy Hallowe'en" customary in other parts of the country? (I grew up here, so I'm disinclined to think it a local custom of which I was unaware.) Maybe I just got a bunch of polite trick-or-treaters. (For some reason I still can't put my finger on, the way these kids said "Happy Hallowe'en!" reminded me of people shouting "Merry Christmas!" as they left a Christmas celebration. Maybe the September onset of Christmas advertising is having an effect...) I noticed the same thing. Most kids walked off saying nothing, some said thank you, some wandered through my frost bitten flowers, a little girl skipped gaily along my stepping stone path, but the curiosity was the six or seven who said "Happy Hallowe'en." This is Eastern Kentucky, folks, so I don't think it is regional. I, too, suspect an influence from advertising. Terry -- (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 17:36:22 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: Re: Hallowe'en greetings? I had never thought about the custom of saying "HH," but I noticed that I said it several times yesterday and I had to said to me several times, including at a grocery store (clerk) and a gas stattion (also clerk). Bethany Dumas = dumasb! make that dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 16:42:16 -0600 From: Michael Linn mlinn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]D.UMN.EDU Subject: Response to Terms Lynn Murphy's interesting and perceptive analysis of attitude self reference terms. But it doesn't address the regional influence on the terms. In Minnesota, and particularly Northern Minnesota, indigenous people of all ages resent being called Native American. In 1979, and reaffirmed 1994, the American Indian Affairs Council of Minnesota stated that American Indian was the term to use in all references to indigenous people. To see if this attitude was widely accepted, I polled the other members of the American Indian Advisory Board, a group of American Indian faculty, staff, students and community leaders. Everyone strongly prefered American Indian so it does not merely reflect the "elders being more resistant to change." None of my colleagues here want to be called Native American. Since I see Native American written elsewhere, I wonder if the term is being adopted in other parts of the country. Here it certainly boarders on being a racist term because the whites refer to themselves as Native Americans at the boat landings when they harass American Indians for exercising our fishing rights. My American Indian friends here prefer to be called Anishinabe, not colleague. As they prefer to call me Assiniboine, or other informal names. Michael Linn ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 14:10:36 PST From: "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs, CO" ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM Subject: Re: offending idioms The term African-American referring to blacks of African heritage, reminds me of a good friend of mine and his wife who have recently moved back to Zimbabwe. They were both born in Northern Rhodesia about 40 years ago, before the country became Zimbabwe. When they reached their 20's, they travelled to England and worked there for a few years before moving to the US. While here, he received his US citizenship, and of course considered himself a true African-American, born in one, naturalized in the other. The twist to the story is that Darryl, and Mattie, were descendants of British Colonialists that had settled in in Northern Rhodesia several generations ago. -- Jim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 18:03:03 -0600 From: Daniel S Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: relics On Tue, 1 Nov 1994, Beth Simon wrote: I just came from teaching The Study of English and a discussion of discourse routines/telephone conversations. Someone said "First you dial a number." I asked, "How many of you have dial phones?" A moment of silence, then everyone cracked up. Some relics don't seem to bother anyone. Brooms aren't usually made out of broom, these days. Both eyeglasses and drinking glasses can be made out of plastic. And how long is it since anyone made marshmallows from marshmallow plants? But when I say "icebox" people look at me funny. Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 16:18:42 -0800 From: Janice Kammert jkammert[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: Happy Halloween Doesn't anyone know to say "trick or treat" anymore? On Tue, 1 Nov 1994, Martha Howard wrote: I, too, last night was thanked and then wished a Happy Halloween by nearly everyone of the fifty or more trick or treaters who knocked on my door. I don't recall ever having heard it before. Where did it come from? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 19:26:48 -0500 From: PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: Re: Response to Terms Michael Linn's comments on "Native American" vs. "American Indian" were really interesting news to me. But what, literally, do "Anishinabe" and "Assiniboine" mean? in what language? ADS members are well-read, I know, but this I can't parse without help... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 19:27:00 EST From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU Subject: offending idioms Did I actually see someone on ADS-L use [sic] on a singular they/them referen ce to a singular prior reference which was unspecified for sex? Should we rename this list MR/MS.FIDDITCH-L? What is one to do when they dont know the sex of a prior referent? Dennis Preston ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 19:48:43 -0500 From: PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: Re: offending idioms The Baugh & Smitherman articles in 1991 American Speech have been mentioned several times in this discussion, but in response to Jim Ague's comments about Rhodesian-born friends, let me quote the Baugh article again. I'm not sure whether Ague's point was to show that "African American" is illogical, or just to note a curiosity, but: [Baugh, fn. 1:] "I have adopted the term 'American Slave Descendants' (ASD) for two reasons. First, since this discussion looks at terms of self-reference, ASD strives for terminological neutrality in a text that must refer to Americans with African ancestors. The second justification grows from Edmund Morris's [1989, Wash. Post ref] self- identification as an "African American". Morris is a naturalized American, and a white native of Kenya; he labeled himself as an "African American" in order to mock Jesse Jackson's plea. Morris cannot claim to be be a descendant of American slavery, and the adopted terminology excludes people like him." Morris's situation is of course analogous to Ague's friends', though the motives may well be different. Anyway, who says that terms of self-reference must be logical in any truth-value sense? Much of lkanguage, indeed of reference, is non- literal. Does "American Indian" refer to naturalized Bombay-born citizens of the US? sure it COULD, but that's not what it DOES. Nor does usage have to be symmetrical, ie you don't have to call me what _I_ call me to satisfy any standard of truth; in fact deixis is asymmetrical by nature. No, the whole point of address terms is (a) to avoid confusion and (b) to conventionally express attitudes and relationships. By that standard, there can't really be any confusion over who "African American" refers to; and it is now perceived as the most civil and respectful way for non-ASD to address ASD. What have logic, symmetry, and ASD-to-ASD preferences got to do with it? As Spike Lee says, just "do the right thing"... --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 19:51:30 -0500 From: PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: Re: naming of RU486 The RU stands for the initials of the drug company, which I can't remember offhand but it's hyphenated: "Rxxx-Uxxx", maybe "Roussel-Uclaf" or something like that? 486, who knows... [perhaps their computer used that brusque phrase too often?] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 18:08:56 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Felicitations OK, riddle me this: Is there a greeting, equivalent to Happy Halloween and Merry Christmas, for the Day of the Dead (Dia de los Muertos)? If so, is there a standard English translation, or equivalent, of the Spanish? Birrell Walsh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 18:20:10 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: Hallowe'en greetings? San Francisco reporting here. Our visitors all said "Trick or Treat". A number said "Thank you," when prompted by Mom. Three greeted our dog by name. None said "Happy Halloween." (N = about 15, I'd say.) Birrell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 18:25:51 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: NEW: POS302-L - Race/Ethnicity Book Review List (fwd) OK, folks - you know who you are! Go get 'em ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 15:58:44 CST From: Gary Klass gmklass[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu To: Multiple recipients of list NEW-LIST NEW-LIST[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM1.NODAK.EDU Subject: NEW: POS302-L - Race/Ethnicity Book Review List POS302-L on listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ilstu.edu POS302-L is a discussion list constructed for the Race, Ethnicity and Social Inequality seminar to be held for the second time this Spring (1995) at Illinois State University. Subscription to the list is open to all faculty and students at any University or College. The discussion on the list consists of book reviews and commentaries on book reviews submitted by the subscribers. Subscribers will receive a "welcome" message indicating a schedule for each of the twenty-seven books on the reading list. Reviews of other related books are also welcome. To subscribe to POS302-L send a message to listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ilstu.edu with the following command in the body: SUBSCRIBE POS302-L Your Name Note: listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ilstu.edu identifies itself as UNIX ListServer 6.0 and is not an L-Soft LISTSERV of the same name. All the previous POS302-L reviews are archived on the ilstu.edu gopher under: /Information about Colleges and Departments /Department of Political Science/COURSES/POS302-L. (or Path=1/depts/polisci/COURSES/POS302) The new books on the list for the Spring 1995 semester are: * Thomas Sowell, RACE AND CULTURE: A WORLD * James Crawford, HOLD YOUR TONGUE * Ruth Sidel, BATTLING BIAS * Dana Takagi, THE RETREAT FROM RACE * Stephen CORNELL, THE RETURN OF THE NATIVE * Vine Deloria and Clifford M. Lytle, THE NATIONS WITHIN * Nathan McCall, MAKES ME WANNA HOLLER * Ellis Cose, THE RAGE OF A PRIVILEGED CLASS * Mitchell Duneier, SLIM'S TABLE * Ruth Frankenberg, WHITE WOMEN, RACE MATTERS * Douglas S. Massey and Nancy Denton, AMERICAN APARTHEID * Robert D. Bullard, ed., UNEQUAL PROTECTION * Jared Taylor, PAVED WITH GOOD INTENTIONS * R. Feagin and Melvin P. Sikes, LIVING WITH RACISM Owner: Gary Klass gmklass[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ilstu.edu Associate Professor (309) 438-7852 4600 Political Science (fax) 438-5310 Illinois State University Normal, Illinois 61790-4600 --------------------------------------------------------------------- DISCLAIMER: NEW-LIST announcements are edited from information provided by the original submitter. We do NOT verify the technical accuracy nor any claims made in the announcements nor do we necessarily agree with them. We do not warranty or guarantee any services which might be announced - use at your own risk. For more information send e-mail to LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM1.NoDak.EDU with the command GET NEW-LIST README in the body. mgh ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 21:51:31 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: Happy Halloween I, too, last night was thanked and then wished a Happy Halloween by nearly everyone of the fifty or more trick or treaters who knocked on my door. I don't recall ever having heard it before. Where did it come from? I personally find this quite odd--the fact that it strikes some people as unusual, that is. I don't have any great insight based on exhaustive corpus analysis or anything like that. All I can say is that "Happy Halloween" is as familiar to me as "Merry Christmas," "Happy New Year," or anything else. I'm sure that I used it as a child and ever since (when the occasion arises). I'm from and remain in New York, if that helps. Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 11:17:41 GMT From: "Warren A. Brewer" NCUT054[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWNMOE10.BITNET Subject: Relics My favorite "relic" is telephone terminology. We still say, "Your phone's off the hook," "Hang up and redial." I've never even seen an old-fashioned telephone where the receiver had to be hung up on a hook, except on tv or in movies. Haven't used a dial since I can't remember when. Suppose this is semantic shift with loss of original referent. Cf. to ship goods by plane/truck/train, as well as by boat still. To (set) sail -- ? affix sails on a boat? ---Wab. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 22:49:28 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Happy Halloween From the New Haven, CT front: The party I was co-escorting (assorted Status: RO kids ages 7 to 12), and others we overlapped with, standardly employed "Happy Hallowe'en", as on previous years within memory. It's not used instead of "Trick or Treat" (which I have a feeling is pretty opaque to kids anymore), but instead of or alongside "Thanks", AFTER the goodies have made their way into the sacks. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 03:51:04 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms In all respect, Professor Lancaster, I don't think you are responding to my contribution to the discussion that was going on some time ago. Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 31 Oct 1994 to 1 Nov 1994 *********************************************** There are 35 messages totalling 784 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Hallowe'en greetings? (2) 2. Response to Terms 3. NEW: POS302-L - Race/Ethnicity Book Review List (fwd) 4. who is african american (4) 5. offending idioms (6) 6. Preferred Terms (2) 7. Relics (5) 8. new york city and upstate 9. dia de los muertos (6) 10. HT 11. relics 12. No subject given 13. Happy Halloween 14. set out 15. TESOL Job 16. Judy's Carbon Copy ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 21:02:23 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: Hallowe'en greetings? My wife was peradventure in Arlington VA last night, first escorting a squad of trick-or-treating young, and then receiving them when they came to her hosts' house. She reports that she heard HH in both situations, from both kids and householders. Birrell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 21:06:17 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: Response to Terms On Tue, 1 Nov 1994 PPATRICK%GUVAX.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU wrote: Michael Linn's comments on "Native American" vs. "American Indian" were really interesting news to me. But what, literally, do "Anishinabe" and "Assiniboine" mean? in what language? ADS members are well-read, I know, but this I can't parse without help... Well, related (sort of) is the fact that both "Navajo" and "Apache" are hispanicizations of what the Pueblos called the peoples in question, both of whom call themselves "Dine'" in their own Athebascan languages... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 00:18:40 -0800 From: THOMAS CLARK tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Re: NEW: POS302-L - Race/Ethnicity Book Review List (fwd) On Tue, 1 Nov 1994, Birrell Walsh wrote: OK, folks - you know who you are! Go get 'em [snip] Thank you Mr. Walsh. I'd read six of these, but will get busy on the rest. Vine Deloria was especially good, don't you think? Cheers, tlc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: who is african american did anyone else see the article in the chronicle of higher ed a few months ago about a white guy who checked "african american" on his application to law school (at johns hopkins, i think)? his paternal grandparents are white zambians, so he reasoned that he could count as "african american" since he can trace his family tree, rather recently, into africa. the school accepted him, then noticed that he had checked "white" on his financial aid form, found out he was indeed of european stock, and rescinded his acceptance. he's suing, claiming that they must've just accepted him because they thought he was black. they say they'd do the same to anyone who answered their forms inconsistently. he says it wasn't inconsistent-- "african american" makes no reference to race. lynne ______________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 South Africa "Language without meaning is meaningless." --Roman Jakobson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: offending idioms bob lancaster said: Of course, this sounds great, and civility and good manners are the foundation of a society worth living in. But its universality here is disturbing. Are we truly barred from any language that anyone might find unpleasant? No one can feel good about being crippled, but should we really expunge the word from the vocabulary? Do we stop reading Shakespeare and Chaucer, or Bowdlerize them? Many people without hair don't like to hear the work "bald." What do we call them? Hair Challenged? It is all too possible to sanitize language until it's essentially dead, and it seems to me we're well on the way. i think that this is missing the point of sali's claim and the issues that i raised that he was responding to. no one said anything about deleting words from the language. we were speaking of the value judgments that go into making dictionary usage labels. my interpretation of sali's call for civility and politeness boils down to: some people are more offended by some words (for some reasons) than others. some words (e.g., "nigger") are given special status by outgroup members as the "really bad words", but other words can be used just as harmfully, sometimes through thoughtlessness. thus, it's not enough to have a list of bad words cited for their horrificness by the mainstream culture. somethings have to be done on a case-by-case basis, and the mainstream culture is a bad gauge of what offends people who are, in some of their facets, outside of the mainstream. lynne ______________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 South Africa "Language without meaning is meaningless." --Roman Jakobson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 01:32:30 PST From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: who is african american I know that biologically speaking, there is no such thing as "race." Is there a another use of the term "race" other than in bigotry (and government)? This is a serious question -- no humor this time. Chuck Coker CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu PS: I was accepted into college because of "Native American," I believe. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 03:31:40 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: Preferred Terms M. Lynne Murphy mentioned the hyphen in 'African-American'. I remember that in the late 60s Chicanos objected to the hyphen in 'Mexican-American', saying they didn't appreciate being labeled as hyphenated Americans. It seemed to me that these comments, along with the general tendency to omit the old-fashioned hyphen, speeded up acceptance of lots of hyphenless forms in print media by the early 1970s. Now it's rare for a student to know the old rules of hyphenation of compound modifiers etc. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 03:36:45 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: Relics Joan L-W's comments about CDs etc. reminded me of an interchange I had at Sears while looking at cable-ready VCRs. One model was labeled "hi-fi" and I wondered what that meant in this (commercial) context. In this type of audio machinery the term refers to "surround sound" that feeds 4 speakers if you have them. I happened to hear the very first stereo broadcast -- in early 1953, when the FM station in Woburn and an AM station in Boston simulcast the two channels of stereo recordings. Such fun stuff as a train running through the room, or through the wall between two rooms in the place where I was. At that time the term 'high fidelity' was used for monaural recordings that were produced by technology that produced a "flat curve," that is, the same relative loudness for frequencies from 20 to 20,000 Hz. When stereo recordings (and phonographs) came in a few years later, the term 'hi-fi' was popularly applied to stereo recordings (and equipment), in contrast to monaural. London Records were proud of their new technology, which they called 'ffrr' for "full frequency-range response." Placement of microphones in stereo recording added complications to how 'ffrr' might be achieved. At any rate, London's ffrr hi-fi recordings were consiered "lo-fi" within a couple of years after they were produced. And now we have 'hi-fi' taking on another shift. An irony was that many of the stereo recordings (and equipment) were in fact lo-fi, but the general public did not understand enough about the technology to make a distinction between lo-fi hi-fi stuff and hi-fi mono (classical) recordings. This all happened as Elvis was loosening up his pelvis in preparation for the now- famous assault on American culture. I don't know why I ran on and on. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: who is african american I know that biologically speaking, there is no such thing as "race." Is there a another use of the term "race" other than in bigotry (and government)? This is a serious question -- no humor this time. some physical anthropologists are interested in figuring out about "races"--but i believe their use of the term is somewhat different from the popular use, and their interests are often highjacked for political reasons. but, the relevant thing is that the caucasoid/mongoloid/negroid classification was only ever one of a number of conflicting theories, but it got popularized in a way that other theories (including that there's only one race) never did. the interest in physical anthropology is to trace the origins of the species. did anyone else see the program "ape man" on arts and entertainment network? (a friend sent me the one re: language.) it discussed the possibility that physical differences from the rest of humanity in europeans (protrusion of the nose, in particular) are partly accounted for by the hypothesis that homo-whatever (can't remember my ancestors' names) interbred with the neanderthals in europe (neanderthals have only been found in europe). this would, in part, account for the disappearance of neanderthals. and, of course, argues against nazi notions that the "aryans" are "pure". also gives me a whole new take on calling someone a neanderthal. lynne ______________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 South Africa "Language without meaning is meaningless." --Roman Jakobson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 06:47:52 EST From: BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Preferred Terms From: NAME: David Bergdahl FUNC: English TEL: (614) 593-2783 BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX To: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX Among my list of preferred terms is "New York" or "New York, N.Y." for New YorkCity. The latter has always seemed to me a barbarism, used by people who misread New York City Police Dept as [[[New York City]Police]Dept]. DAVID David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: new york city and upstate RE: From: NAME: David Bergdahl Among my list of preferred terms is "New York" or "New York, N.Y." for New YorkCity. The latter has always seemed to me a barbarism, used by people who misread New York City Police Dept as [[[New York City]Police]Dept]. i completely disagree! as an upstate new yorker, i hate it when "new york" is used to mean "ny,ny" (but the latter is almost never used, and sounds hickish when used). us upstaters already resent the downstaters for a number of reasons (e.g., perceptions that all our taxes and water and hydroelectric power go there), so using "new york" in a way that doesn't include us only adds to the resentment. it's not that big a resentment, but it does make it harder for me to have any kind of regional identity. people assume that when i say i'm from NY i'm from the city (of course, i usually say "upstate NY" or "NY state" to avoid that--but why should i have to say NY state in order that the people from the city don't have to say NY city? "NY state" sounds like a football team.) which leads to the topic of "upstate" and "downstate". to us up rochester-way, anything from the catskills south is "downstate" but to the NYCers, westchester co. (commuting distance) is "upstate". (i frequently have to explain to people that no, being from upstate ny doesn't mean you get to benefit from the culture of the city. it's a7-8 hour drive for me.) the relativity of these terms is interesting, but not as interesting as in illinois, where someone from dekalb or rockford (NW of chicago) can be from "downstate". i'm spending way too much time responding to the ADS list! stop talking about things that interest me, while i'm still remembering to eat and sleep! lynne ______________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 South Africa "Language without meaning is meaningless." --Roman Jakobson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 08:40:51 EST From: David Muschell dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms BALD: FOLLICLY CHALLENGED SHORT: VERTICALLY CHALLENGED FAT: GRAVITATIONALLY CHALLENGED SKINNY: GASTRONOMICALLY CHALLENGED STUPID: CEREBRALLY CHALLENGED LIAR: CONFUTATIONALLY CHALLENGED BIGOT: DOGMATICALLY CHALLENGED LAZY: ENERGY CHALLENGED CHEATER: PSEUDO-CHALLENGED ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 15:37:45 HOE From: Alberto RIO RIOGARAL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM1.SDI.UAM.ES Subject: dia de los muertos In Spain we say d'ia de los santos inocentes, in memory of those Bethlem chil children murdered when Jesus was born (they were innocent and, heresy, saints). Yours, Alberto RIO Fax.: +34 1 397-8599 Servicio de Cartografia, modulo de Geografia Phone: +34 1 397-3894 Universidad Autonoma de Madrid e-mail: Campus de Cantoblanco riogaral[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vm1.sdi.uam.es E-28049 Madrid, Spain riogaral at emduam11 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 09:45:15 -0400 From: Bob Lancaster SLANCASTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU Subject: offending idioms Regarding that last posting of mine on "offending idioms" and "African Americans," the e-mail address was wrong. Obviously, it should be Colagte:EDU. Also, I apologize to anyone subject to alopecia. Such persons are clearly "tonsorially challenged"--"hair" is a concrete noun, and those who have none might find it offensive. In the event that anyone might be thinking of referring to me as a "conservative" (approbrious or not according to your inclinations), I am in fact a card-carrying member of ACLU, an authentic bleeding-heart liberal who considers laissez-faire market economics a PC word for peonage. Bob Lancaster SUNY-emeritus. English slancaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]colgate.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 10:15:15 -0400 From: Bob Lancaster SLANCASTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU Subject: HT Nobody seems to have mentioned what I thought was the standard usage for HT, "well brought up." It's the only one I heard when I was being brought up. Bob Lancaster SUNY-emeritus, English slancaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]colgate.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 21:53:30 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: Hallowe'en greetings? In Message Tue, 1 Nov 1994 18:20:10 -0800, Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]well.sf.ca.us writes: San Francisco reporting here. Our visitors all said "Trick or Treat". A number said "Thank you," when prompted by Mom. Three greeted our dog by name. None said "Happy Halloween." (N = about 15, I'd say.) In what I observed in Chicago, people said "Happy Halloween" in lieu of "bye-bye." My daughter, as several other children I saw that night, would say "trick or treat" at the beginning of the exchange, as soon as the door was opened. Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Nov 1994 21:54:06 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms In Message Tue, 1 Nov 1994 14:10:36 PST, "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs, CO" ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com writes: While here, he received his US citizenship, and of course considered himself a true African-American, born in one, naturalized in the other. The twist to the story is that Darryl, and Mattie, were descendants of British Colonialists that had settled in in Northern Rhodesia several generations ago. I did not know that in proposing that "African American" be used instead of "Black American" the intention was to appropriate "African" for 'black' only! The bottom line in this pseudo-intellectual insanity is: why should you care how a particular group or subset thereof wants to be identified? Who is trying to legislate language here: the user/speaker or the linguist? Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 10:31:06 -0500 From: Steve Harris etnibsd!vsh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET Subject: Re: Relics Donald M. Lance writes: .... One model was labeled "hi-fi" and I wondered what that meant in this (commercial) context. In this type of audio machinery the term refers to "surround sound" that feeds 4 speakers if you have them. My understanding of "hi-fi vhs" means the audio portion is stored _with_ the video data, in the higher bandwidth diagonal "stripes" along the tape. Normal vhs stores the audio linearly along the edge of the tape. Hi-fi also stores the audio linearly so the tape can be played on a non-hi-fi vcr. I suppose four tracks of audio data could be stored; my "hi-fi" vcr only does stereo. ///////// - video signal data ---------- - audio signal data -- Steve Harris - Eaton Corp. - Beverly, MA - vsh%etnibsd[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uunet.uu.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 08:40:02 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: who is african american On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, M. Lynne Murphy wrote: [snip] did anyone else see the program "ape man" on arts and entertainment network? (a friend sent me the one re: language.) it discussed the possibility that physical differences from the rest of humanity in europeans (protrusion of the nose, in particular) are partly accounted for by the hypothesis that homo-whatever (can't remember my ancestors' names) interbred with the neanderthals in europe (neanderthals have only been found in europe). this would, in part, account for the disappearance of neanderthals. and, of course, argues against nazi notions that the "aryans" are "pure". also gives me a whole new take on calling someone a neanderthal. lynne It has always seemed to me (as a completely unqualified observer, therefore licensed to hold forth) that the type called 'Alpine' in Europe, and found in E. France, S. Germany et partibus proximis, looked a bit like our friend H. neanderthalis. Did I hear correctly that H. Nea. had larger brains than modern humans? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 11:39:13 -0600 From: Judy Kuster KUSTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX1.MANKATO.MSUS.EDU Subject: Re: Relics I asked someone for a carbon copy of something this morning. I guess that one dates me! Judy Kuster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vax1.mankato.msus.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 10:00:59 -0800 From: Judith Rascoe boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: relics I just hate that patient look I get when I admire somebody's new "stereo". ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:09:00 CST From: Edward Callary TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MVS.CSO.NIU.EDU Subject: No subject given Thanks to all who have written in response to my request for information on the origin of the name of RU486. They iterate the two stories which I have heard: first that RU stand for the lab which developed the drug: Roussel Uclaf of France; second that RU-486 is wordplay on they spelling: Are You For 86; 86 for killing, stopping, halting, aborting. Reminds one of the name of the computer HAL in 2001. Derived cleverly from IBM or not? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 10:09:30 -0800 From: Judith Rascoe boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: Relics Hm. We can't very well say "hang up and retouch" yet. Although (speaking as a newspaper retoucher's child) retouching is now done by computers and must be called "morphing" or something like that by now. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:37:08 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Happy Halloween I took an informal survey at lunch a little while ago and found nobody who saw anything unusual about saying "Happy Halloween." They all (six or eight people) thought it was odd that anybody would find it odd. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 20:47:45 HOE From: Alberto RIO RIOGARAL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM1.SDI.UAM.ES Subject: set out Intern'l Herald Tribune, Nov 2, 1994, page 3d, says: 'A US spacecraft set out Tuesday on a mission to study charged particles that continously hurle from the sun and can black out cities and interrupt communications. The unmanned vehicle was launched from the Cape Canaveral Air Station in Florida, 10 miles from where the space shuttle Atlantis awaited a launching set for Thursday.' See 'launched' at the second sentence. Yours, Alberto RIO Fax.: +34 1 397-8599 Servicio de Cartografia, modulo de Geografia Phone: +34 1 397-3894 Universidad Autonoma de Madrid e-mail: Campus de Cantoblanco riogaral[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vm1.sdi.uam.es E-28049 Madrid, Spain riogaral at emduam11 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 21:23:16 +0100 From: Fuencisla Garcia-Bermejo Giner more[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUGU.USAL.ES Subject: Re: dia de los muertos I believe that is another day, I mean "dia de los santos inocentes", the equiva equivalent of your fool's day. Here in Salamanca it is "Dia de los Santos" or "dia Dia de todos los Santos". It is a day of remembrance for our dead on es, the day in which we visit cementeries and clean grgraves and tombstones. It is also dthe day in which whe sae have marzipan cakes called "huesos de santo " ("gonesanint's (saints' bones) and "buenuelos" (cream or chocolate stuffed puffsp uffs). I The day before, Oc October 31st is "dia de las animas" in which we prayy for those souls that are still in purgatory. The re is to my nknowledge no egreeting expression equivalent to your "Happy Halloween" or "Trick or Treat" though I ustm must say that in the past four ofr foive years pubs and discos have started to have Halloween parties to cater to the nee"needs" of the increasing number of Amer ican studients that come to the special courses of our Span ish courses of my university and most young Salamanca people know what Halloween is. Fool's day is April 28th, I believe. Maria F. Garcia-Bermejo Giner Deptl. Lengua y Lit. Inglesas y Lit. Norteamericana Universidad de Salamanca. 37008 Salamanca, Spain. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:27:59 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: offending idioms On Tue, 1 Nov 1994, salikoko mufwene wrote: [Much more than this, but I have snatched out of context the following;] Who is trying to legislate language here: the user/speaker or the linguist? Sali. For once I can answer one of the good doctor's questions. Whoso is trying to legislate language is always, without exception, without regard to race or gender, what the Welsh call a wmbb. And since it never works, the wmbb - the wellmeaning busybody (you'll kinow it by its cry) - is forever redoubling the effort, alas. Apparently ya canna control what people say, and trying mostly annoys them. I kinow - I've tried, and grew very frustrated, and made enemies... Birrell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 12:35:10 -0800 From: Guadalupe Valdes gvaldes[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LELAND.STANFORD.EDU Subject: Re: dia de los muertos There is an important difference between el dia de los muertos and el dia de los inocentes. In Mexico, like in Spain, we celebrate el dia de los inocentes on the 28 of december. It is actually our "april fools day" a day in which many attempts are made to fool happy innocents who fall for tricks and jokes. El dia de los muertos is all souls day. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 13:49:38 CST From: Barbara Need barbara[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAPIR.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: Relics re: carbon copy You do know that cc: in e-mail messages stands for "carbon copy"? Barbara Need Linguistics--U Chicago ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 21:37:54 +0100 From: Fuencisla Garcia-Bermejo Giner more[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUGU.USAL.ES Subject: Re: dia de los muertos Fool's day is DECEMBETt R 28th, sorry. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 15:42:46 EST From: MICHAEL K PARSONS mkpars01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms The term "African American" is little more than the PC solution to the responsibility that White America has in perpetuating racism. The term is, by its very nature, exclusionary. While pride in ones heritage is a good thing, we ought not cover up covert racism with candy coated closed doors we call "multicultural acceptance." The problem of racism in the United States will never be truly addressed until we quit hiding behind walls of terminology. Michael Parsons mkpars01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-stu.edu Morehead State University Morehead, Ky 40351 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 17:17:33 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: TESOL Job A month or so ago I posted our official announcement for a position (Assistant Professor) in TESOL/AmLit -- a very brief announcement in the exact wording sent to the MLA job list. My department head told me not long ago that almost all of the applicants so far have been from people who are primarily interested in American Lit and have only a modicum of TESOL interest/experience. That's a problem since our primary need is for a TESOL person who can also teach other courses in linguistics and ideally can teach AmLit from time to time. If you know of any likely candidates, please encourage them to apply. I don't have a copy of the official ad handy at the moment but can find it if anybody wants to see it. What I'm writing right now is not any kind of "official" word -- I assume it's legal for me to be writing this unofficially. The deadline is sometime around the middle of this month. We'll interview at MLA. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 18:03:53 -0800 From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: Judy's Carbon Copy My e-mail has a CC: in the header, does that still stand for Carbon Copy, or is it now Computer Copy, or something else? Chuck Coker = NOT what CC: means CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 18:28:14 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: dia de los muertos On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, Guadalupe Valdes wrote: There is an important difference between el dia de los muertos and el dia de los inocentes. In Mexico, like in Spain, we celebrate el dia de los inocentes on the 28 of december. It is actually our "april fools day" a day in which many attempts are made to fool happy innocents who fall for tricks and jokes. El dia de los muertos is all souls day. Yes, and if our California experience is any guide, it will soon be an important day for non-Mexicans too. It seems to be spreading, filling the same need shown by the phenomenal sales of Kubler-Ross and of the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying. Gringo culture (an Irishman, I will NOT be calling it anglo) seems to have no way of honoring the dead except lugubriously. Birrell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 18:39:29 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: dia de los muertos So: Date SPAIN MEXICO USAGringo Oct. 31 The Dead --- (Monsters) Nov. 1 Saints Saints --- Nov. 2 --- The Dead --- Is this the right calendar? Of course, Halloween is Samhain, one of the four Celtic sacred days, so 'tis no surprise it did not survive in Spain. St. Patrick, of Ireland fame, was a Spanish Celt. But the Muslim invasion probably wiped Spanish Celtic customs even more thoroughly than did the Anglo-Saxon/Viking invasions of the British Isles. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Nov 1994 to 2 Nov 1994 ********************************************** There are 14 messages totalling 386 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Judy's Carbon Copy 2. offending idioms (3) 3. All Souls' Day/All Saints' Day (3) 4. PC in the NY Times 5. political correctness at ncte 6. American Culture and All Saints & All Souls Days 7. who is african american (2) 8. Hallowe'en greetings? 9. new york city and upstate ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Nov 1994 23:03:56 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Judy's Carbon Copy The cc in e-mailers is indeed a direct descendant of the initialism for 'carbon copy', although I wonder whether it (and indeed the cc at the bottom of letters) hasn't been reanalyzed by many (especially of the post-carbon generations) as being a plural of 'copy', as in mss. for 'manuscripts', pp for 'pages', ff., etc. I'll ask my Words & Meaning class and see what they guess. (There must be some transparency for some writers, since one occasionally sees 'xc' for 'xerox copy' instead.) --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 01:27:45 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: offending idioms PC NUT: REALITY CHALLENGED DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:32:37 EST From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: offending idioms Isn't PC just another form of the old middle class tendency toward euphemism, you know, the kind that gave us _white meat_ and _dark meat_ and _gentleman cow_? PC always comes across as quaint to folks who lived on the wrong side of the expressway and know even worse terms than the apparently innocent ones vilified by the PC. Sometimes PC and euphemism in general can backfire: I have run into people in Texas and Georgia who refer in the singular to a descendant of African slaves as _a minority_--"A minority just came in here and gave me some trouble about . . . ." The whole euphemism is lost in the sarcastic tone of voice that frames the word. Further, I've just read about a company that tried to produce optimism among workers by referring to problems in production or marketing as _opportunities_. Workers began using the term _opportunity_ in ironic ways: "I hear that he had an opportunity with his car this morning on the way to work. Yeah, he blew out his transmission." An educator experiencing wellness but awaiting the opportunity of passing, Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:44:48 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: All Souls' Day/All Saints' Day I have been surprised by some recent posts that appear to me to suggest that nowhere in the "anglo/gringo" world is there any occasion for honoring the dead. Since we are in the week of All Souls' and All Saints' days, I want to point out that the Christian church (at least, its Roman and Anglican/Episcopal manifestations) provides two such occasions. I append a brief comment extracted from a post on the list ANGLICAN (name of author omitted to preserve anonymity, not to deprive of credit): "Here's another stab at answering your query about All Saints' Day and All Souls' Day to add to [name omitted], since the position of the U.S. Episcopal Church is somewhat different from that of the Church of England. Both days find their way into the U.S. calendar, with All Saints being one of the seven principal feasts that take precedence over any other day or observance (The others are Easter, Ascension, Pentecost, Trinity, Christmas, and Epiphany). All Saints' commemorates the heroes of the faith, known and unknown, who have gone before us and are a part of the great cloud of witnesses in the heavenly realm who surround us and support us. All Souls' Day, or Commemoration of All Faithful Departed, November 2 in the U.S. calendar, has its own propers set out in the Book of Lesser Feasts and Fasts and is a day set aside for prayers for all the dead. Prayers for the dead are considered appropriate by the U.S. Book of Common Prayer; they were not countenanced, I believe, in the 1662 BCP, still the official liturgy of the Church of England. Simon says Anglicans don't do Purgatory. Well, no, but we Americans come pretty close, viz., the following from the U.S. burial office: "Father of all, we pray to you for those we love, but see no longer: Grant them your peace; let light perpetual shine upon them; and, in your loving wisdom and almighty power, work in them the good purpose of your perfect will; through Jesus Christ our Lord." We also, since the adoption of the 1979 BCP, ask the prayers of the saints, once a frowned-on activity, viz.: "O God, the King of saints, we praise and glorify your holy Name for all your servants who have finished their course in your faith and fear: for the blessed Virgin Mary; for the holy patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs; and for all your other righteous servants, known to us and unknown; and we pray that, encouraged by their examples, aided by their prayers, and strengthened by their fellowship, we also may be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light; through the merits of your Son Jesus Christ our Lord." Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 07:57:38 -0800 From: Judith Rascoe boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: offending idioms re use of mangled euphemisms: I notice "homeless" used as a singular noun "We had a homeless sleeping behind the store" and as a collective without a preceding 'the': "that estimate includes commuters and shoppers but doesn't include homeless". ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 08:21:29 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: All Souls' Day/All Saints' Day Now how could I, who attended an American parochial school where All Saints was (is?) a Holy Day of Obligation, not list it? Still, I don't think we can say it is celebrated culturally, by those for whom religion is no particular preoccupation, as Dia de los Muertos is in Mexico. Valid distinction, to cover my embarrassment? Birrell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 11:46:21 -0500 From: ALICE FABER faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU Subject: PC in the NY Times Well, Larry's probably beaten me to this, but this morning's New York Times has an article about "Negro" in place names in the New York area. Apparently there is a "Negro Brook" in northern New Jersey, and a local resident (White, btw) wants to change the name, on grounds of its offensiveness. According the the article, many of the place names in the NY area (and presumably elsewhere) with "Negro" in their name were originally "Nigger X", and in the 1960's the US Geological Service (or some other gov't agency-I don't have the article in front of me) decreed that these should henceforward be "Negro X", and maps were adjusted accordingly, even if local usage hasn't always. I couldn't tell from the article whether the "Negro X" usage was offending people, or whether it was the still-preserved "Nigger X". Alice Faber Faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haskins.yale.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 11:33:58 -0600 From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: political correctness at ncte I've only been reading some of this thread, because of the press of local business. But since the discussion has turned to political correctness, let me play Allan for a moment and invite/remind all ADS members and participants in the ADS-L that our ADS-sponsored session at NCTE in Orlando (Friday, Nov. 18, at 2:30) will deal with "Political Correctness, Language, and the Classroom." Speakers will be Smokey Daniels, Vivian Davis, and me. I don't what the others are going to talk about exactly, but I promise that my talk will deal not only with some of the issues discussed in this forum but also with my Nexis search of the terms political correctness and politically correct, and with ways we can turn this issue into an investigation of language use with our students. Hope to see you all down in Orlando. And remember to wear your Mickey ears. Dennis --- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 15:06:26 EST From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: American Culture and All Saints & All Souls Days The last posting about the cultural differences between North American and Mexican celebrations of All Saints Day and All Souls Day jogged my jaded memory and put me in a time when those days were more meaningful--days when I was under the power of Presentation nuns from Ireland. Halloween was, of course, Halloween--trick or treat, bubble gum in locks, water balloons, and all the fun of grease paint and sneaking out a pillow case instead of the dumb grocery bag my mother wanted us to use to hold our candy and bruised mushy apples. But All Saints Day was a holiday from school, a bright sunny southcentral Texas day to eat candy in the yard while numerous bees tried to steal the last bit of sweetness they could before a blue norther came down from the hill country and chased them into winter hiding. Sugar-hyped kids would then attend evening mass with their families in the dark November night. All Souls Day was a special dark day of repentance following the orgy of Halloween and the brightness of the liturgical readings of All Saints Day. It seems to me that we were allowed to stay in the church on that day as long as we wanted in order to pray for the souls in purgatory. The prayers were prefaced with pleas from the nuns about the suffering going on there that could be alleviated through our efforts. Our hands still sticky with candy, we placed them together in the gesture of reverence and tried to help the people from the awful fire. Whew! We didn't have picnics on dead folks' graves, but we had a cultural experience. P.S. Our lab school here at my college cannot celebrate Halloween with the small children because some parents object to demon worship, etc. The children celebrate Harvest, dress up as storybook characters, and visit offices that invite the children to come get candy. Culture changes. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 14:46:07 EST From: Shani Walker s.walker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: who is african american I know that biologically speaking, there is no such thing as "race." Is there a another use of the term "race" other than in bigotry (and government)? This is a serious question -- no humor this time. Chuck Coker CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu PS: I was accepted into college because of "Native American," I believe. I don't know exactly what you are asking for, except to say that I am an African-American female who does not get offended by being called this, because I know who I am, regardless of what people call me. Labels that society puts upon people of the minority races are only temporary...I don't get too caught up in labels...who knows, the next thing "they" may call us are African-Black-Negro Americans...who's to say? Question to you: why do applications have a question regarding your ethnic background? I know to answer the question is only optional, but why is it asked in the first place? Do you have a theory? Shani N. Walker Morehead State University Morehead, Kentucky ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 15:44:01 EST From: BRENT D HUTCHINSON bdhutc01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: Hallowe'en greetings? Here in eastern Kentucky, saying "Happy Halloween" is a pretty common occurrence, but I think it is probably a result of the commonality of saying "Merry Christmas," "Happy New Year," etc. Halloween is another pretty heavily recognized holiday. But I'm sure that the trick-or-treaters are polite people as well. I mean, they were getting candy. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 18:27:03 -0600 From: Daniel S Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: new york city and upstate On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, M. Lynne Murphy wrote: which leads to the topic of "upstate" and "downstate". to us up rochester-way, anything from the catskills south is "downstate" but to the NYCers, westchester co. (commuting distance) is "upstate". (i frequently have to explain to people that no, being from upstate ny doesn't mean you get to benefit from the culture of the city. it's a7-8 hour drive for me.) the relativity of these terms is interesting, but not as interesting as in illinois, where someone from dekalb or rockford (NW of chicago) can be from "downstate". I never encountered the term "downstate" applied to NY State till recently. (I grew up in Ulster County, lived a while in The City.) When people ask where I'm from, I sometimes say I'm from the part of the Appalachians that used to be Dutch-speaking. It shortens the explanations. Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 16:54:59 PST From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: who is african american Hi, Chuck Coker here. Got the following from Shani N. Walker: I know that biologically speaking, there is no such thing as "race." Is there a another use of the term "race" other than in bigotry (and government)? This is a serious question -- no humor this time. Chuck Coker CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu PS: I was accepted into college because of "Native American," I believe. I don't know exactly what you are asking for, except to say that I am an African-American female who does not get offended by being called this, because I know who I am, regardless of what people call me. Labels that society puts upon people of the minority races are only temporary...I don't get too caught up in labels...who knows, the next thing "they" may call us are African-Black-Negro Americans...who's to say? Question to you: why do applications have a question regarding your ethnic background? I know to answer the question is only optional, but why is it asked in the first place? Do you have a theory? Shani N. Walker Morehead State University Morehead, Kentucky I don't remember what the original posting was, but I was responding to someone else's posting in the above. That's why it appears not to make a whole lot of sense. I think somebody said they got a job or something, because their skin was the "right color" or something like that. (Do I use too many words beginning with "some"?) As far as name-calling, personally, I don't really care what I'm called; I don't even care if it's polite or not. About the ethnic background question, you see that more often in government and government-related industries (schools are gov't, too, as I am sure we're all painfully aware). I used to own a heavy-truck repair shop in Orange, California. Because I serviced all the Roadway Express trucks in Orange County, and Roadway hauled stuff for the feds, etc., I was indirectly connected to the government. So I had to ask stupid questions like ethnicity and such, so I could report to the government that my business was an Equal Opportunity Employer and I didn't discriminate because of race, sex, religion, ad nauseum. My personal opinion? Can you fix trucks? Yes? You're hired, even though you have purple (or whatever color) skin. When I entered college, at that school there was 0.6% Native American and Alaskan Eskimo ethnicity. (Alaskan Eskimo? What about the others, Canada, Greenland, Siberia, etc.? Maybe they're not minorities.) I looked good on their statistic sheets. But what the (insert favorite word here), I got into college. Other people might have other opinions and facts (I'm sure they do). Maybe some of them will respond. Comments and Flames Always Welcome, Chuck Coker CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu P.S. I do computer work now. Had to get out of the truck-repair business because there was getting to be too much government stuff; I couldn't take it anymore. Ask your mechanic next time how come he has to charge you so much money. =============================================================================== There have been no dragons in my life, only small spiders and stepping in gum. I could have coped with the dragons. Anonymous (but wise) =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 17:52:25 -0800 From: Judith Rascoe boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: All Souls' Day/All Saints' Day Ahem ... in my youth Nov 1, All Saints Day, was a parochial school holiday too. Which gave a certain carefree air to Halloween and probably contributed to the popularity of this strange occasion. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Nov 1994 to 3 Nov 1994 ********************************************** There are 14 messages totalling 313 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Joycean epiphany RE: c.c. (*anachronym?) 2. up/down state; in/out state 3. ADS 4. offending idioms 5. political correctness at ncte 6. who is african american 7. NADS Is Now Obscene (3) 8. up down and around state 9. posting 10. new york city and upstate (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 12:55:13 GMT From: "Warren A. Brewer" NCUT054[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWNMOE10.BITNET Subject: Joycean epiphany RE: c.c. (*anachronym?) Well, I never knew (in my 46 years) that c.c. meant "carbon copy"; and ran to all my dictionaries in disbelief. For some reason, I had always read it as "courtesy copy". Which of course never caused the relic-Angst that the anachronym (just made that up) _carbon copy_ might have caused. ---Wab. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 23:16:30 -0600 From: Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU Subject: up/down state; in/out state I have been told about, though I haven't actually heard it said, that in Nebraska the Omaha-Lincoln area (occasionally referred to as Linoma) is "instate" and everywhere else is "outstate" and I was also told that it would not be well received to refer to the panhandle as "outstate" to someone from there. I haven't inquired further, and all of the natives I know are natives of Omaha anyway. -- Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu "What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other." -Clifford Geertz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 23:07:54 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: ADS My friend Dan Alford is a linguist of the Cheyenne language. He's subscribing, but asked that I pass this on to you. Birrell ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 09:01:13 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s1.csuhayward.edu To: birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]well.com Subject: re: ADS (sent also to your bitnet address, so resending) Interesting fwd. I remember what Sakej said once about this topic -- "I don't like the word 'Indian'. Too many 'i's (eyes)." Of course, "Anishinabe" (for sure) and "Assiniboine" (probably) both mean simply 'The People'. In fact, it's an almost sure bet all through North America, and even generally true throughout the world, that whenever you unpack an indigenous people's name for themselves, it means things like: the people, the ones whose are like us, etc. I know Anishinabe is Algonquian, and Assiniboine is either Algonquian or Siouxan (Xkhotan?) -- it's really hard to tell sometimes because although these are seen to be two major language families, the Cheyennes used to tell me that there is a deep relationship between the Cheyennes and Lakhotas that doesn't show up in the whiteman categories. This perhaps had to do with the Cheyennes already being on the Plains when the Xkhotas arrived, and the Cheyennes taught them the "Sundance" and other spiritual ways of the Plains, and there was early intermarriage. Of course that's only one of many mysteries lurking beneath the surface of Invader categories of The People. For instance, the way I hear it from those who live in Nova Scotia, the *Pre-Proto-Algonquian crowd scooted south during the last ice-age (or the last gasp of the mini-ice-age 8K years ago or so? -- they're not real good at linear time!) and vacationed in Mexico while they waited it out; then headed back north and had to sing the trees back into existence where the glaciers had bulldozed them). Now I don't particularly care whether you believe all the details or not, but what is being said here is very important to anthropological linguists: there is an unsuspected Algonquian influence on the languages of Mexico (but the Algonquians were *always* way up north, weren't they?). It's just a matter of what kind of time depth you're willing to look at. If I were looking into a claim like this, I'd start with the startling similarities between Mayan and Mikmaq (aka Micmac) glyphs. Well, more later. I thought I'd saved your message with *subscribe* info, but it is lost in the electronic haze. Pls send me it again. You may want to fwd my above to the list, a shadow of my coming!! -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- John Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 23:09:10 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: offending idioms On Thu, 3 Nov 1994, Judith Rascoe wrote: re use of mangled euphemisms: I notice "homeless" used as a singular noun "We had a homeless sleeping behind the store" and as a collective without a preceding 'the': "that estimate includes commuters and shoppers but doesn't include homeless". This means it has the same pseudo-partitive usage that is accorded the word "staff" in social service agencies. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 23:11:28 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: political correctness at ncte Sure hope Sali is going to be there! Hardly a fight without him.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Nov 1994 23:17:44 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: who is african american On Thu, 3 Nov 1994, Shani Walker wrote: Question to you: why do applications have a question regarding your ethnic background? I know to answer the question is only optional, but why is it asked in the first place? Do you have a theory? Shani N. Walker Morehead State University Morehead, Kentucky Our registrar told me that the government required it, so they could prevent racism. No pschitte, really! And when I declined to fill it in, she did. Best laiud plans of mice and men, eh? Birrell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 09:01:51 EST From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: NADS Is Now Obscene Now that "nads" is a commonly heard reduction of "gonads," I kind of chuckle every time I run across our beloved newsletter (_Newsletter of the American Dialect Society_) with its bold-faced acronym _NADS_ staring up at me out of the chaos of my desk. I need a day off. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 09:32:21 -0600 From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: NADS Is Now Obscene Now that "nads" is a commonly heard reduction of "gonads,".... Wayne Glowka So Wayne, you're saying NADS is a foreclipping? Guess I need a week off! Dennis -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 08:09:00 CST From: Edward Callary TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NIU.BITNET Subject: up down and around state It's pretty well-known that in Illinois everything except the Chicago area is 'downstate.' Chicago metro, though, is not usually called 'upstate.' Watching state election returns, the Chicago announcers have, though, a somewhat elastic definition, with some areas - such as far southern Ill - more 'downstate' that others, but everything outside the 'collar counties' is downstate and somewhat suspect. The state tourist authority some years ago promoted instate tourism with the slogan 'just outside Chicago, there's a place called Illinois.' Say no more. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 08:38:00 CST From: Edward Callary TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NIU.BITNET Subject: posting Sorry for the last posting. I haven't been getting msgs in sequence lately; the earlier msg was just delivered. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 13:02:00 -0500 From: Ernest Scatton ESCATTON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ALBNYVMS.BITNET Subject: Re: NADS Is Now Obscene "Now that 'nads' is a commonly heard reduction of 'gonad'".... Now?! It was in common use in the mid to late fifties in the Phila suburbs (western, to be real exact). One of my friends submitted it as the school nickname for a new high school they opened up in our neighborhood... he wanted to be able to cheer...go..... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 10:33:56 -0800 From: THOMAS CLARK tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Re: new york city and upstate On Thu, 3 Nov 1994, Daniel S Goodman wrote: [snip] recently. (I grew up in Ulster County, lived a while in The City.) West of Denver, "The City" is always San Francisco. Randy at the Tamony Collection has a BUNDLE of info demonstrating the historicity of that sobriquet. Cheers, tlc ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 14:32:32 -0600 From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: new york city and upstate I'm from New York City. Queens, to be exact. And when we went to Manhattan in the 1950s we said we were going "to the City." But if someone asked if I was from the City I would say yes, since Queens is part of the city. We were well aware of the ambiguity, and often had to explain which "the City" we meant on that particular occasion. Everything else was upstate or on the island (Long Island). Or, of course, Jersey. Brooklyn was somewhat vague. Though it was attached to Queens, it remained a strange place we went to only to visit those relatives who were too old to leave. One always feared attacks by overzealous Dodgers fans. Even though Queens was on the island, we didn't claim it as being "on the island," a phrase that usu. referred to Nassau and Suffolk counties, which were outside the city, in all senses. The people from upstate referred to NYC as the city, so far as I can recall, though of course being from the city, I spoke to very few people who were really from upstate. One of my teachers in college grew up upstate. He remembered being told "the City" was as closed to Hell as one could get on this earth, and his first visit to the City, when he saw steam rising from the manhole covers, confirmed the worst he had been told. Our local subway stop, a 20-minute walk from my house in Forest Hills, was in the part of our neighborhood we called The Village. You had to go to the Village to get the subway to go to the city. Once in the city we usually went to the Village, meaning Greenwich Village, quite a different place from our own "the Village" in every sense, including the steam coming up from the manholes. Those were the days. Now that I've been in the Midwest for over 25 years, I know that what Mephistopheles replied when Faustus asked him where hell was (in Marlowe's play) is true. Dennis -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 15:11:54 EST From: Vicki Rosenzweig murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET Subject: Re: new york city and upstate I've heard "downstate" occasionally: for example, here in New York City, Cornell University has a school called Downstate Medical. But it's not a term New York City or Long Island residents would use to refer to ourselves: we're "New Yorkers" (specifying that we're from "New York City" or "the City" [and yes, I'm aware of the arrogance of that one] if appropriate) or "Long Islanders. Vicki Rosenzweig vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com New York, NY ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Nov 1994 to 4 Nov 1994 ********************************************** There are 24 messages totalling 599 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "Native" Names 2. new york city and upstate (4) 3. "them" singulars (8) 4. Relics (2) 5. Boulder Dam 6. NADS Is Now Obscene 7. special issues of names 8. Algonquian et al. (3) 9. blinky, warsh-rags, and liketa 10. Kingsbury 11. blinky, warsh-rags, and liketa - cont'd ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 00:53:56 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: "Native" Names Thanks to Marquette, the names we use for the Missouri Indians (and once used for the river) were Algonquin forms, because Marquette asked his Peoria guides "Who are those people?" and "What is that river?" Of course the Illini weren't about to render answers in Siouan "dialects." 'Missouri' (i.e., variants leading up to this form) referred to 'people with canoes' and their river was the 'Pekitanoui', which meant 'Muddy Water' in Algonquin references; several variants related to 'Pekitanou' are found farther north in Algonquin territory, but Siouans such as the Otoes referred to the river with 'Nisoje' (contemporary form reported by Oto-Missouria elder, in interview). We have no records at all of what the Missouris called themselves or their river, but the Otoes called them 'Niutachi' = 'those who drown in the water' because of what happened to a large bunch of the Missouris when they were attacked by Sac and Fox (Algonquin-speaking) warriors. Even the name for the Otoes was given them by the Ioways. So sometimes whiteman's history does more than lay interpretations on words that mean 'the people'. Siouan people up in the Dakotas area also thought the Aise ([a ise] river flowed from its headwaters in Montana down to the Gulf of Mexico, with a tributary coming into it from the north where the Aise turned south above what is now St Louis. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 01:31:14 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: new york city and upstate Kansas City also is "The City" in the western part of MO and eastern KS. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 01:36:23 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: new york city and upstate In Missouri all except the St Louis and KC metro areas are "outstate." DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: new york city and upstate we're "New Yorkers" (specifying that we're from "New York City" or "the City" [and yes, I'm aware of the arrogance of that one] if appropriate) or "Long Islanders. "the city" is definitely area-specific, though. just as donald lance said "the city" is st. louis (wasn't that it?) in newark, NY, where i grew up (it's NOWHERE NEAR new jersey!), "the city" is rochester--(as in "i'm working in the city now") even though we're about equidistant from rochester and syracuse. lynne ______________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 South Africa "Language without meaning is meaningless." --Roman Jakobson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 10:17:05 -0400 From: Bob Lancaster SLANCASTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU Subject: "them" singulars Did I actually see someone on ADS-L use [sic] on a singular they/them referen ce to a singular prior reference which was unspecified for sex? What is one to do when they dont know the sex of a prior referent? Yes, I did indeed use [sic], obviously not with any implication that Professor Mufwene was unaware of English grammatical structure, but to indicate that the "them" was not a typo or editorial revision of my own. Furthermore, I am unwilling to apologize for it. The use of a plural pronoun to stand for a singular referent in order to achieve gender ambiguity seems to me to be heavy PC. For one thing, although in the mists of history there may have been some male dominance suggestion in the use of "him" as a generic for "human being," in the case in question "him" is certainly a generic form. To demonstrate this one need only suppose that it was intended as masculine. The result would be that the preceding noun, "person," was meant to refer only to a male--clearly a ridiculous assumption. Furthermore, the situation is easily avoided by either changing "person" to the plural form, or using the (admittedly somewhat awkward) "him/her." We already find ourselves in a situation in which grammatical structure has broken down to the extent that millions of Americans are unable to say clearly what they mean. (And one wonders, if they are unable to say it, whether they know what they mean.) I, for one, am unwilling to sanction any surrender of clarity of expression for sociological purposes. Bob Lancaster SUNY-emeritus, English slancaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]colgate.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Nov 1994 10:32:53 -0400 From: Bob Lancaster SLANCASTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU Subject: Relics My favorite "relic" is telephone terminology. We still say, "Your phone's off the hook," "Hang up and redial." I've never even seen an old-fashioned telephone where the receiver had to be hung up on a hook, except on tv or in movies. You just don't live in the right plac, Wab. We had one installed in our house in Nova scotia just three or four years ago. Doesn't vitiate your thesis regarding relics, though. Bob Lancaster SUNY-emeritus, English slancaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]colgate.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 05:54:30 -0800 From: James Beniger beniger[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RCF.USC.EDU Subject: Re: Relics "Hangup" has survived even to computers. It is, for example, the actual command equivalent of exit, quit, logoff, etc., in Comserv. -- Jim Beniger ******* On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, Warren A. Brewer wrote: My favorite "relic" is telephone terminology. We still say, "Your phone's off the hook," "Hang up and redial." I've never even seen an old-fashioned telephone where the receiver had to be hung up on a hook, except on tv or in movies. Haven't used a dial since I can't remember when. Suppose this is semantic shift with loss of original referent. Cf. to ship goods by plane/truck/train, as well as by boat still. To (set) sail -- ? affix sails on a boat? ---Wab. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 09:36:54 -0500 From: Ellen Johnson ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Boulder Dam The post about Hoover Dam vs. Boulder Dam reminds me of a personal dilemma. They have renamed the large lake above Augusta, GA, which used to be called Clark Hill Reservoir. Now it's "Strom Thurmond Lake", at least according to the folks on the SC side, and now the road maps, too. I'll be damned if I'll call it that... BTW "conservative" is Definitely not a non-PC term around here. I heard the Democratic and Republican congressional candidates falling all over themselves in a public appearance last week, each trying to prove to the audience that he was the more conservative. I asked the Democrat why he didn't run as a Republican (thinking that might give voters more of a choice), but that only gave him a chance to pontificate about the Great Southern Tradition of Conservative Democrats. There may be a gender-based difference in frequency among users of the N-word here, but I've heard it from both sexes, even, I'm sorry to say, from my own mother. Are attitudes really worse among the older generations than the younger, or is there just a tendency to disregard the taboos as one ages? It seems to me to be comparable to age-grading, wherein certain nonstandard forms are most common among both the very young and the very old. I once submitted a grant proposal to the gerontology research center here to study how people may be more inclined to flout the linguistic norms as they get older and pressure to climb the social ladder decreases. I never heard back from them. As you can tell, I'm just now reading last week's mail. Ellen JOhnson ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 08:53:02 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: "them" singulars of history there may have been some male dominance suggestion in the use of "him" as a generic for "human being," in the case in question "him" is certainly a generic form. To demonstrate this one need only suppose that it was intended as masculine. The result would be that the preceding noun, "person," was meant to refer only to a male--clearly a ridiculous assumption. Furthermore, the situation is easily avoided by either I'm having a bit of a problem with what I perceive to be a circle here. If it's not my imagination, I hope others will note it and address it. I'm online for only a very quick run through new mail before the arrival of out-of-town guests. awkward) "him/her." We already find ourselves in a situation in which grammatical structure has broken down to the extent that millions of Americans are unable to say clearly what they mean. (And one wonders, if Huh? Would you mind giving some examples of this broken grammatical structure? --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 10:25:04 EST From: BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: new york city and upstate From: NAME: David Bergdahl FUNC: English TEL: (614) 593-2783 BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX To: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX On "The City"--I grew up in Valley Stream and taking Sunrise Hwy into Queens there was a big billboard withe the admonition "THIS IS QUEENS--OBEY THE LAW" so I can attest to Denis Baron's memory that Queens was a distinct place, separate from both Brooklyn and Manhattan. Could Brooklyn still have retained its separate identity because, up until 1900, it was a separate city rather than a borough, and that manhattan and Brooklyn were "twin cities"? It was the Brooklyn Bridge that is ultimately responsible for the creation of "The City of New York" from these two cities. As far as the 'confusion' between New York State and The City, I remember Raven McDavid's use of York Staters for what we called citizens of Upstate. I recommend using New York for both and letting the context disambiguate, much as Chomsky recommends on grammar as either internalized rules or rules in the data. The moral of this exchange is, I think, that if we cannot agree on what to call a city and a state with the same name so as to differentiate them, how are we goiing to keep a white Rhodesian and a black American apart by labels? I'm reminded of the wisdom of Stokely Carmichael, "It isn't the bus, it's us." It isn't the naming which should be the focus. DAVID David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 10:42:00 -0600 From: Katherine Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM Subject: Re: "them" singulars Furthermore, I am unwilling to apologize for it. The use of a plural pronoun to stand for a singular referent in order to achieve gender ambiguity seems to me to be heavy PC. I don't think this is the case. It has been commonly used in informal speech throughout my lifetime at least. When I taught freshman English, well before "PC" (I don't like that term, but that's another subject) was an issue, it was one of the most common mistakes in student papers. I think the problem is that we need a gender neutral singular pronoun, and English speakers are grabbing the handiest possibility. I believe the singular "they" is in the throes of becoming common usage. I have no problem with that. For one thing, although in the mists of history there may have been some male dominance suggestion in the use of "him" as a generic for "human being," in the case in question "him" is certainly a generic form. To demonstrate this one need only suppose that it was intended as masculine. It leads to amusing sentences, though, such as one I recall that went something like this: "Whether a patient is in the hospital for heart surgery, a broken bone, or to give birth, he . . ." If "he" were truly a gender-neutral pronoun, there would be no problem with this sentence, when clearly there is. Furthermore, the situation is easily avoided by either changing "person" to the plural form, or using the (admittedly somewhat awkward) "him/her." If "he" were truly a gender-neutral pronoun, why would this be necessary? We already find ourselves in a situation in which grammatical structure has broken down to the extent that millions of Americans are unable to say clearly what they mean. This has not been my experience. Kate Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 10:52:43 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: "them" singulars certainly a generic form. To demonstrate this one need only suppose that it was intended as masculine. The result would be that the preceding noun, "person," was meant to refer only to a male--clearly a ridiculous assumption. In fact, there is research in Thorne, Kararae and Henly which shows that most people really DO preceive the recerence as masculine. We already find ourselves in a situation in which grammatical structure has broken down to the extent that millions of Americans are unable to say clearly what they mean. As a linguist, I am confused by your assertion that grammatical structure has "broken down." What I think IS going on is a decline in general literacy. We have many college graduates who have never read a book. And so, unlike most academics and some professionals, their speech is NOT influenced by a familiarity with the world of writing. And speech is NOT always "clear" because it depends on things like context and preconditions; it is often, for reasons of politeness or self=affacemtn, indirect. That does not mean that "grammatical structure has broken down." (And one wonders, if they are unable to say it, whether they know what they mean.) I, for one, am unwilling to sanction any surrender of clarity of expression for sociological purposes. Bob Lancaster SUNY-emeritus, English slancaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]colgate.edu I wonder if Bob is concerned more with a general breakdown in authority for which I am also concerned. That's a different issue and one on about which I know very little. But grammatical structure is alive and well and will definitely outlast what we think of as civilization. Timothy Frazer Dept of English Western Illinois University ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 10:55:41 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: "them" singulars I wrote before I saw Natalie's post and would like to second her question. Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 12:23:00 EST From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU Subject: Re: "them" singulars Since I was the first to respond to the silly notion that they/them singulars was somehow learned as s response to current PC trends, I suppose I should answer again, although soem have already been kind enough to point out that this usage is common in the speech of many (most?) Americans, and I certainly learned and used it (with perfect clarity I might add) long before any current political issues were involved (although historical facts relating to this issue are much older than many assume, as Dennis (the other one) shows in his 1986 Grammar adn Gender (Yale Univ. Press). As for the other of Lancaster's claims, particularly that we communicate poorly as a result of breakdown in grammar, I can only utter (oooops! careful with that only placement) the usual linguist's sigh. I suppose the loss of the thou/thee/thine singulars did cause a little misunderstanding for a while (a real grammatical breakdown) and I also assume that those who oppose such breakdowns are 100% behind such repairs as you guys, you all, youse, and yuns. (Why do I suspect that they are not? Is it for the same reason that Michiganders yuk it up when hillbillies like me conflate pin and pen but don't even get the joke when I laugh at their conflation of horse and hoarse -- what conflation? They're pronounced the same, right? Yuk-yuk) Dennis [dIn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s] Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 09:34:29 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: "them" singulars About the sociology of "they/them": As a male who is NOT a feminist, who grows bilious at most PC euphemisms, I (nonetheless) find merit in the argument that "he/him/his" is goofy. It does NOT refer to a person of unknown gender: it refers clearly to a man. So I think Dr. Lancaster is off on this one. This leaves us with no graceful choice. "He/she" is hideous. "It" means an inanimate, and would thus be appropriate for some people, but not all. I find "they/them/their" the best of a bad set of choices. Birrell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 10:15:42 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: Re: "them" singulars "They/them/their" as singular goes back to Chaucer. It doesn't eradicate. I agree with Birrell Walsh -- the best of a bad set of choices, and look at all the well-attested history behind it. Now, excuse me, why was it we didn't want to use these forms anyway I remember reading once that Meillet or one of those dead French linguists had uncovered a substratum of animacy below/before the sex-gender distinctions. English handles animacy really badly, which is another reason I don't find the plural/singular conflation a problem, and why I for one wouldn't mind if ikind of went away. He/she merely draws attention to genitalia and secondary sex characteristics in a way that makes people from other languages and cultures wonder why they have to pay so much attention to sex in order to just speak English properly. He/she vs it tends to invoke a "living/dead" contrast. And then, to top it all off, we have a great big gaping hole in that pronoun set -- any living creature whose genitalia we're not interested in or can't immediately tell (neighbor's new baby or dog, a tree, a whale, a bug, a star we label 'IT', as if the creature is dead! I contend our pronoun systems is subtly complicit in it-ting Mother Earth to death because of this basic lack of formal respect. Note this is different from Romance languages where masc/fem/neut are applied to all objects and beings equally, without absolute dependence on sexual characteristics. So gimme them they's and their's! -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- John Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 13:58:15 -0500 From: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: NADS Is Now Obscene Yes, I heard that one ten years ago. And thought I'd just keep on brightening the lives of those who get brightened that way. Whatever turns you on.... - Allan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 16:09:00 CST From: Edward Callary TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NIU.BITNET Subject: special issues of names Names, the Journal of the American Name Society, is planning two special issues for late 1995 or early 1996. The first is on 'Computers in Onomastic Research,' and the second 'Statistics in Onomastic Research.' If you would like to contribute to one (or both) of these special issues, send a 1-page idea paper to the editor at the address below. Nothing has to be definite at this time, but I would expect that both issues would deal with problems faced in name research and how computers (and statistics) could contribute to solving them. I put a similar notice on the American Name Society list and found that there was wide-spread interest in both areas. So if you would like to contribute, send the idea paper to me shortly, by either hard copy, fax or email. Edward Callary, Editor, Editor, Names English Department Northern Illinois University DeKalb, Il 60116 FAX: 815-753-0606 email:tb0exc1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mvs.cso.niu.edu (make sure you type zero rather than o after TB) I hope to hear from people from a variety of disciplines who have an interest in names. Please let me know if you have questions or comments. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 15:40:55 -0400 From: Bob Lancaster SLANCASTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU Subject: Algonquian et al. Just want to say that if that posting from Moonhawk is a shadow of his coming, I sure look forward to the reality. Bob Lancaster SUNY-emeritus, English slancaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]colgate.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 17:01:45 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: Re: Algonquian et al. Thank you, Prof. Lancaster. I only hope the reality is as impressive as the shadow, smoke and mirrors. Perhaps a note of introduction would not be too onerous for this list. After UCLA training in English and Linguistics in the late 60s, I soon found myself on the Cheyenne Indian Reservation (dumping my Chomskyan training down the toilet of abstraction) administering a federal bilingual ed program and crafting an alphabet and writing system. On return to California four years later, to doctoral studies at Berkeley, I found and was adopted as a deep friend by an Algonquian couple, two of the early few American Indians to receive doctorates, who were teaching there. Marie Battiste went on to head the Mikmaq educational efforts in Nova Scotia (and was voted Nova Scotia Woman of the Year three times or so), and Sakej Henderson has parlayed his Harvard law degree into working on the Canadian Constitution, being a delegate to the United Nations, and now heading the Indian Law Center for Canada. Meanwhile, these two hooked me up with David Bohm just before he died, as he convened the first Dialogue Between Indigenous and Western Sciences in 1991, as physicists, American Indians, a few linguists and some others, including elders, talked about how reality is constructed. I happen to think it's an event of staggering importance -- Indians were invited in full cognitive equality for the first time in history to talk with some of the world's greatest scientists. And the results were equally staggering: they agreed on key concepts of reality (everything that exists vibrates; the only constant is flux; the part enfolds the whole), except the scientists called it the subatomic realm and the Indians called it the realm of spirits. If anyone wants to know more about these Bohm Dialogues (still ongoing), I'd be glad to post more about it. If anyone would like to see the SUMMARY I posted on Linguist to a claim by a Blackfoot woman, quite Western educated and working in theater, that when American Indians are speaking their own languages they don't speak in metaphors -- ever, no matter what it sounds like in English, let me know. Meanwhile, a riddle for anyone who's made it this far: My momma comes from a place where people refer(red?) to a certain stage of milk as "blinky". She also says "warsh-rag" and "liketa" for almost ("He liketa died!"). Any guesses where she's from, or did I narrow it down far enough? Finally, a story to go with my signoff. One fine imaginary day, two astronomers were walking along an imaginary beach together and sat to watch the nightly lightshow in the sky. One saw a "sunset", with the sun circling out of sight around the earth, and the other saw an "earth-turn" as the earth circled the sun. -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- John Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 22:10:43 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: blinky, warsh-rags, and liketa I just read Moonhawk's interesting post. I know from personal research experience that his mama.momma could be from Newton County, Arkansas--but i also know that she could be from anywhere in the Arkansas or Missouri (or maybe even Kansas or Texas or one small stretch of Illinois) Ozarks or that's dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 21:09:05 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Kingsbury Stewart Kingsbury, long-time member of ADS, died on October 23, of cancer of the liver. He was 71. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 22:13:31 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: blinky, warsh-rags, and liketa - cont'd the line that was inadvertently omitted from the previous post is "anywhere in southern Appalachia." Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Nov 1994 19:59:48 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: Algonquian et al. On Sat, 5 Nov 1994, Bob Lancaster wrote: Just want to say that if that posting from Moonhawk is a shadow of his coming, I sure look forward to the reality. Bob Lancaster SUNY-emeritus, English slancaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]colgate.edu Adventus est! ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Nov 1994 to 5 Nov 1994 ********************************************** There are 5 messages totalling 114 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Urbicentrism 2. Folkspeech as wellspring (2) 3. blinky, warsh-rags, and liketa 4. "them" singulars ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 13:01:17 GMT From: "Warren A. Brewer" NCUT054[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWNMOE10.BITNET Subject: Urbicentrism "The City" for the ancient Romans was [tada!] Urbs (sc. Roma). Sic transit rapidus. ---Wab. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 13:47:53 GMT From: "Warren A. Brewer" NCUT054[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWNMOE10.BITNET Subject: Folkspeech as wellspring Impersonal pronouns: Since 3rd sg impers _he/him/his_ ("The masculine predominates") rule is on the ropes, informal or nonstandard contenders should simply be acknowledged as the new champs. Perhaps it is the moral responsibility of ADS to make such suggestions for formal use, lest the masses remain at the mercy of pedantic prescriptivists peddling their undemocratic nostrums. "Melior est reprehendant nos grammatici, quam non intelligant nos populi." Which, for the Classically challenged, means, "It's better that grammarians criticize us, than that people not understand us." Unfortunately I'm memory challenged, so it was either Jerome or Augustine (probably the former in his preface to the Vulgate). ---Wab. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 00:53:52 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Folkspeech as wellspring While we're on the subject of sex-indefinite singular 'they', a valuable brief history and analysis is given by Ann Bodine in a Language in Society paper published in 1975. The use of 'they'/'them'/'themself' in a variety of contexts (albeit to different extents in different syntactic environments) is indeed rather ancient, pre-dating the current 'PC' debates by several centuries, in both formal and informal registers. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 07:49:15 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: Re: blinky, warsh-rags, and liketa Amazing, Bethany Dumas -- you win! Close enough anyway -- Baxter County, Ark,\ up in the Ozarks! How excellent! -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- John Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Nov 1994 12:25:16 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: "them" singulars In Message Sat, 5 Nov 1994 10:15:42 -0800, Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s1.csuhayward.edu writes: He/she merely draws attention to genitalia and secondary sex characteristics in a way that makes people from other languages and cultures wonder why they have to pay so much attention to sex in order to just speak English properly. He/she vs it tends to invoke a "living/dead" contrast. Have you surveyed these claims or are you just guessing? If I may speak for some of those "people from other languages and cultures," these interpretations never crossed my mind. And then, to top it all off, we have a great big gaping hole in that pronoun set -- any living creature whose genitalia we're not interested in or can't immediately tell (neighbor's new baby or dog, a tree, a whale, a bug, a star we label 'IT', as if the creature is dead! I contend our pronoun systems is subtly complicit in it-ting Mother Earth to death because of this basic lack of formal respect. FANTAS-tic theory!! (At least you made me giggle for a while!) Note this is different from Romance languages where masc/fem/neut are applied to all objects and beings equally, without absolute dependence on sexual characteristics. I have heard another interesting theory about the French gender system, according to which cultural articfacts and functions originally associated with women are typically feminine; mutatis mutandis for men/masculine. There are curious exceptions of course for this theory, because "la guarde", for instance, is feminine. I wonder if knives were originally used only by men, as "le couteau" is masculine, while "la fourchette" is feminine, both of which are used at the dinner table and should have been expected to be feminine according to this other theory. On the other hand, "la fourche", which I would associate with men in a farm (though I am not French), is feminine. I don't know about Spanish, Portuguese, or Italian, but French doesn't have a neuter gender. Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Nov 1994 to 6 Nov 1994 ********************************************** There are 14 messages totalling 389 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "swan" not "swear" (3) 2. 'swan' in TX, ARK (5) 3. motivation for 'swan' 4. Algonquian et. al. (3) 5. Algonquian et al. 6. swanny ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 10:03:05 EST From: DONNIE J GRAYSON djgray02[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: "swan" not "swear" People say that it is not polite to swear, but my mom says that it isn't even polite to say "I swear." So she says "I swan" instead of "I swear," and I have to tell you, it gets on my nerves. Does anyone else out there say "I swan," or ever heard anyone use it. Just curious? ****************************************************************************** e-mail: djgray02[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 10:25:47 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: 'swan' in TX, ARK I heard /swan/ for 'swear' growing up as a child in southeast TX and later in the Ozarks region in Arkansas. I have probably heard it in southern Appalachia also, though I haven't focused on it. It seems unexceptional to me. Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu (English, U of TN) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 10:29:04 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: motivation for 'swan' I was never aware that the substitution of /swan/ for 'swear' was motivated by a taboo against saying the word 'swear." In fact, I never heard anyone give a reason for doing it. Where is 'mom' from? I wonder if she says /swan/ just because other people do but has invented a motivation for doing so? Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu (English, U of TN) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 14:16:54 EST From: "Beverly S. Hartford" HARTFORD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: 'swan' in TX, ARK I grew up with 'swan' in Maine. Bev Hartford ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 13:49:06 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: "swan" not "swear" "I swan" was quite common in Mississippi in the '50s. I don't think I've heard it in a long time, though. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 11:02:17 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: Re: "swan" not "swear" Yup -- I've heard it, in my boyhood days around Ozark transplants to Southern California, and probably back in Arkansas too. And I too went through a long period of things like that 'getting on my nerves' until I finally made peace with my own hillbilly heritage. Hey -- it can happen! -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- John Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 12:56:14 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: Algonquian et. al. It is indeed fortunate for us on this list that Dr. Mufwene is on-line to keep us honest by presenting alternative cultural views. Have you surveyed these claims or are you just guessing? If I may speak for some of those "people from other languages and cultures," these interpretations never crossed my mind. My lack of a quantifier was infelicitous here. Although I do indeed have a background of work in Luganda and Igbo during my graduate studies, my attention has turned over the past few decades to the languages of Indigenous America, which is where these claims come from. I have no idea what Dr. Mufwene's native language is, but the lack of such interpretation in his mind is *possibly* because that language had male/female distinctions built in -- and I'm not sure how that correlates with the interpretations by those without such distinctions. The claim is that before the Invasions, Algonquian languages in particular had no sex-based distinctions in their languages -- no separate words for man and woman, boy or girl. The only distinction made in this way had to do with "pregnant" somethings vs regular ones. Which is how we came up with one particular word in English -- in the early contact days, a ship's captain was exploring with a Mikmaq (Nova Scotia) and they saw a group of large quadrupeds. The captain pointed and asked what it was called, to which the Mikmaq, following the pointing to a particular one, that happened to be pregnant, replied not "tiam", the usual word, but "tiam-musi" meaning a pregnant-tiam. The captain didn't hear the first part too well so called them all "moose", whether pregnant or not. The 'musi' did not, in their language, point to femaleness, but merely the containing of new life. According to Mikmaqs, this was the only distinction normally made with animals or humans or anything. You just don't need that "basic" male/female distinction when your gender system is based on animacy instead of sexual characteristics -- all you're paying attention to is the signs of mystery and life. And I must commend Dr. Mufwene for correctly seizing on my rhetorical tricks. That is, I use such examples, including it-ting Mother Earth to death, as a way of having people reflect on their own grammatical categories in a non-habitual way and try to understand from the inside what it would be like to be part of another system, one that paid attention to animacy rather than genitalia -- and what it means, in the larger picture, that we so unthinkingly label animate beings with 'it' at the same time that we are wreaking ecocide at every turn. I don't know if I can make this into a coherent theory, but I can make people stop and think. My French is many stacks down on the language server, so I was taking my cue from Spanish and others re: neuter gender. Sorry. I'll see if I can make my rhetorical tricks more invisible in the future. Meanwhile, another Algonquian word makes the news. In a recent Washington Post article on the efforts of a soman named Suzan Harjo to get Jack Kent Cooke to change the name of the Redskins football team (thanx to Linda Coleman), questions about the origins of words like 'redskin' and 'squaw' came up. Harjo (and Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell apparently) insists that 'squaw' has a very precise meaning in Algonquian and Iroquoian languages -- 'vagina'. That she learned this meaning from clan mothers. On the other hand, experts such as James Axtell of William & Mary insist that it's simply a word for woman, non-pejorative. Thus is the framing cast. I talked to my friend Sakej about this, suspicious that the argument was going on about nouns. He replied: In Mikmaq, there is still no sex-gender distinction that shows up as a general word for 'woman' -- it's all relationship! Do you mean 'mother', 'sister', what? There does happen to be a word in Mikmaq which is also used in the greeting, "Come in!" (something like *peskwa*, which is damn close to the Proto-Algonquian form now that I look at it!) -- with the same root "entering" (AHA!) as in the word 'squaw', so in that sense Harjo is right that it has to do with sex (pejorative in English, to be sure, but not in native languages) -- but it doesn't refer to a noun, 'vagina', rather to a motion-verb 'enter'. As to non-pejorative -- well, when you have 'mothering' 'sistering' and 'entering' to pick from and you pick the last when referring to a woman, it kinda says right there what your relationship with the woman is (of course with lots more in the set as well -- friending, loving, etc.). All for now ... Oh, except: As a general rule, distrust any English noun that supposedly points to or corresponds to a Native American term in noun form -- that is, distrust the Native "noun" -- Native American languages in general, and Algonquian specifically, do not make any distinction as we do between noun and verb; they have pre-noun/pre-verb roots that express rhythms and vibrations and relationships. I've not yet been able to pin my Algonquian friends down to any noun; they say they can speak all day long and never utter a single noun (or NP), and that this is the rule rather than the exception. Even their words for 'God' are verbs, as I show in my current 2-hour Worldview Thought Exercise called 'God is not a Noun in Native America.' Bye. Really! -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- John Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 12:42:52 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: Re: Algonquian et al. It is indeed fortunate for us on this list that Dr. Mufwene is on-line to keep us honest by presenting alternative cultural views. Have you surveyed these claims or are you just guessing? If I may speak for some of those "people from other languages and cultures," these interpretations never crossed my mind. My lack of a quantifier was infelicitous here. Although I do indeed have a background of work in Luganda and Igbo during my graduate studies, my attention has turned over the past few decades to the languages of Indigenous America, which is where these claims come from. I have no idea what Dr. Mufwene's native language is, but the lack of such interpretation in his mind is *possibly* because that language had male/female distinctions built in -- and I'm not sure how that correlates with the interpretations by those without such distinctions. The claim is that before the Invasions, Algonquian languages in particular had no sex-based distinctions in their languages -- no separate words for man and woman, boy or girl. The only distinction made in this way had to do with "pregnant" somethings vs regular ones. Which is how we came up with one particular word in English -- in the early contact days, a ship's captain was exploring with a Mikmaq (Nova Scotia) and they saw a group of large quadrupeds. The captain pointed and asked what it was called, to which the Mikmaq, following the pointing to a particular one, that happened to be pregnant, replied not "tiam", the usual word, but "tiam-musi" meaning a pregnant-tiam. The captain didn't hear the first part too well so called them all "moose", whether pregnant or not. The 'musi' did not, in their language, point to femaleness, but merely the containing of new life. According to Mikmaqs, this was the only distinction normally made with animals or humans or anything. You just don't need that "basic" male/female distinction when your gender system is based on animacy instead of sexual characteristics -- all you're paying attention to is the signs of mystery and life. And I must commend Dr. Mufwene for correctly seizing on my rhetorical tricks. That is, I use such examples, including it-ting Mother Earth to death, as a way of having people reflect on their own grammatical categories in a non-habitual way and try to understand from the inside what it would be like to be part of another system, one that paid attention to animacy rather than genitalia -- and what it means, in the larger picture, that we so unthinkingly label animate beings with 'it' at the same time that we are wreaking ecocide at every turn. I don't know if I can make this into a coherent theory, but I can make people stop and think. My French is many stacks down on the language server, so I was taking my cue from Spanish and others re: neuter gender. Sorry. I'll see if I can make my rhetorical tricks more invisible in the future. Meanwhile, another Algonquian word makes the news. In a recent Washington Post article on the efforts of a soman named Suzan Harjo to get Jack Kent Cooke to change the name of the Redskins football team (thanx to Linda Coleman), questions about the origins of words like 'redskin' and 'squaw' came up. Harjo (and Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell apparently) insists that 'squaw' has a very precise meaning in Algonquian and Iroquoian languages -- 'vagina'. That she learned this meaning from clan mothers. On the other hand, experts such as James Axtell of William & Mary insist that it's simply a word for woman, non-pejorative. Thus is the framing cast. I talked to my friend Sakej about this, suspicious that the argument was going on about nouns. He replied: In Mikmaq, there is still no sex-gender distinction that shows up as a general word for 'woman' -- it's all relationship! Do you mean 'mother', 'sister', what? There does happen to be a word in Mikmaq which is also used in the greeting, "Come in!" (something like *peskwa*, which is damn close to the Proto-Algonquian form now that I look at it!) -- with the same root "entering" (AHA!) as in the word 'squaw', so in that sense Harjo is right that it has to do with sex (pejorative in English, to be sure, but not in native languages) -- but it doesn't refer to a noun, 'vagina', rather to a motion-verb 'enter'. As to non-pejorative -- well, when you have 'mothering' 'sistering' and 'entering' to pick from and you pick the last when referring to a woman, it kinda says right there what your relationship with the woman is (of course with lots more in the set as well -- friending, loving, etc.). All for now ... -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- John Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 17:43:54 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: Algonquian et. al. In Message Mon, 7 Nov 1994 12:56:14 -0800, Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s1.csuhayward.edu writes: I have no idea what Dr. Mufwene's native language is, but the lack of such interpretation in his mind is *possibly* because that language had male/female distinctions built in -- and I'm not sure how that correlates with the interpretations by those without such distinctions. I grew up speaking two Bantu languages: Kiyansi and (Kikongo-)Kituba and claim to have them both as my native languages. According to the canonical Bantu model, Kiyansi should have a noun class system in which the Human/-Human distinction is quite central. However, I discovered about five years ago that the verb's first syllable in Yansi varies according to tense and mood but not according to person and number. At least in my dialect, there is no evidence of subject-verb agreement. (I have discovered a number of other diverging features from the Bantu canon that should be disturbing for Bantu geneticists!) However, the pronominal system distinguishes between humans and nonhumans. Kituba, a Bantu-based creole, follows more or less the same system. I suppose I was shocked mostly by the correlation of gender with genetalia. Dan's analysis was made more interesting by a question I received from my 6-year old daughter a couple of days before (more or less as follows): "Daddy, how do you tell a baby girl from a baby boy?" I am sure several of you parents and/or adults have received such questions. I was reminded of Hilary Putnam's distinction between, on the one hand, the essential features of gold or an elm, and on the other, the stereotypes by which the average speaker operates. On the other hand, there might be more interindividual variation in the conceptualization of meaning than I have made allowance for in my assumption that communal linguistic systems are not monolithic. Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 18:04:16 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: 'swan' in TX, ARK Raised in Southern California amids lots of TX-OK-AR folks in the early fifties. Never heard 'swan' among the folks there. Birrell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 18:12:42 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: Algonquian et. al. For those of you who don't know Dan Alford, he teaches a course in "Language and Consciousness" that it as close to a laboratory course in that topic as I've ever seen. Extraordinary! Available, for those of you in the San Francisco Bay Area, at the California Institute of Integral Studies in San Francisco, where I had the pleasure of experiencing it. Birrell "Some of my best friends are nouns" Walsh ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 22:09:34 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: 'swan' in TX, ARK Has someone yet mentioned during this thread that the OED lists the verb as derived from a 'prob. north. Eng. dial. I s'wan 'I shall warrant', i.e. 'I'll be bound', and says it was later taken as (folk-etymologized to) a 'minicing substitute for 'swear'. First citation is 1832. There's another slang verb, also largely attested in 'exclamatory asseveration' (don't you just love 'em?), of the form 'swanny', derived by the OED from 'I shall warrant ye'. Anybody ever heard that one? Prob'ly not, I swanny. (No relation to the "Swanny" River, I don't guess.) --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 22:20:11 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: swanny Yes, Larry Horn. I have heard "swanny"--I just thought it was a variant of /swan/. Both terms seem to me to be variants more of "Well, I declare" (expressing mild wonderment) than anything stronger. Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 21:26:31 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: 'swan' in TX, ARK substitute for 'swear'. First citation is 1832. There's another slang verb, also largely attested in 'exclamatory asseveration' (don't you just love 'em?), of the form 'swanny', derived by the OED from 'I shall warrant ye'. Anybody ever heard that one? Prob'ly not, I swanny. (No relation to the "Swanny" River, I don't guess.) Heard of "I swanny"?? It was even more common than "I swan" in my Mississippi childhood and beyond. I'm not sure when "I swanny" and "I swan" started fading away. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Nov 1994 to 7 Nov 1994 ********************************************** There are 14 messages totalling 705 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "swan" not "swear" (3) 2. FYI -- hot debate shaping up on LINGUIST re: Whorf 3. 'swan' in TX, ARK (3) 4. Swan = swear 5. Algonquian et. al. 6. NAMES 7. Birrell Walsh 8. Them singulars (2) 9. pronoun systems, Putnam/Plato essences, haptic perception ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 23:51:53 PST From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: "swan" not "swear" Hi, Chuck Coker here. I've been following this "swan" vs. "swear" thread, and I was wondering: could "swan" be "sworn" pronounced /swan/? I've seen replies from all over, but they keepreminding me of living in Lubbock, TX, and hearing people say things such as "I cooda [could have] swan [sworn] it was . . ." I'm probaly way out in left field here, but just curious. Chuck Coker CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 01:06:21 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: FYI -- hot debate shaping up on LINGUIST re: Whorf I know this will be repetitious for some of you who are cross-subscribed (you can delete any time!), but I thought the others might like to peek in, and maybe even cross-discuss (but no cross replies, please!). It started with this posting: Date: Sun, 06 Nov 1994 09:59:38 -0500 (EST) From: "Leslie Z. Morgan" MORGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LOYOLA.EDU Subject: Re: 5.1239 Eskimo "snow" The returned discussion of "snow" in Eskimo has brought my thoughts around to a related issue which I do not recall having seen discussed on _Linguist_ since I've subscribed: the Sapir- Whorf hypothesis. I just read an article in _Foreign Language Annals_ 27.3, "Awareness of Text Structure: Is There a Match Between Readers and Authors of Second Language Texts?" by Sally A. Hague and Rene'e Scott (343-363), where one of the hypotheses in examining Spanish texts is that they will differ because of the difference in culture-set ways of writing (based on articles by Kaplan (1966 & 1976). In fact, their sample DOES NOT show such a difference. I was under the impression that the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis is generally NOT accepted and is somewhat of an error in interpre- tation. A dean here has cited the hypothesis (without knowing that is what he was citing) as the main reason for studying foreign languages. Does anyone have some suggestions of readable refutations of Sapir-Whorf, something one could send students, deans, etc. to? Or is this a returning issue that is under debate? Thank you- I'll summarize responses for the list. Leslie Morgan MORGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LOYOLA.EDU or MORGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LOYVAX.BITNET To which I replied ----------------------------------------- The ([Anti-]Sapir-)Whorf Hypothesis Leslie Z. Morgan wants to know why we haven't discussed the infamous hypothesis. Before we do, I'd like to weigh in with what will undoubtedly be a minority opinion. I'm bypassing the usual summarizing process in hopes of shaping any discussion. By "the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis", what exactly are you referring to? I usually take it to mean any of four or five hypotheses (with such names as perception, non-translatability, circularity of evidence, cognition, etc.) found in the critical literature of linguistics, anthropology, psychology and sociology. If that's what you're referring to, I can save you and all of us the trouble -- not only do most or all of the critics think it's wrong, so do Whorfian supporters like me! And Whorf refuted most of those before critics ever came up with them, so this rejection is no reflection on him. The ([Anti-]Sapir-)Whorf Hypothesis was all a bad mistake, founded on insensitive misreading (and perhaps non-reading, as critics read mainly each other) of Sapir and Whorf, and we wasted a lot of time trying to "test" it, and now maybe it's over. Kaput. Finis. There's really no reason to send people to refutations -- it's wrong, ill-conceived from the beginning, never happened-- WHICHEVER version they happen to be citing. [N1] Now if you want to talk about the linguistic relativity principle that Whorf wrote (note: principle is what he called it, not hypothesis -- apples and oranges in scientific terminology and must be treated entirely differently), and talk about its Einsteinian pedigree (Whorf extended Einstein's limited geometry problem to natural language in general [N2]) or its Locke/Herder/von Humboldt/Boas/Sapir pedigree before Whorf cast it into formal scientific language [N3], which was probably his main contribution in the historical sequence, then we might talk very fruitfully about that. Or we could explore the linguistic relativity principle as a case in point for how Whorf was attempting to update the notion of *science* for linguists while physics was forging forward from its Newtonian principles into the new worldviews and principles of relativity and quanta -- toward whole systems, dynamic and interactive, where opposites are complementary rather than bipolar. We could talk about how Whorf's most 'damning' statements look quite different in a systems perspective than in a model that promotes monocausal determinism as REAL. And we could talk about how at least four different disciplines crucified him for this -- and for asking linguistics in particular to raise its THEORIES to the same systems level that its METHODOLOGIES have always been, balancing form and meaning. (I tell my graduate students from various departments to look within their own discipline for who it is that everybody's ganging up on and see what it is they're trying to keep people from knowing -- it's worth at least a thesis every time!) In fact, we could even go further and show how Whorf's insights very seriously influenced physicist David Bohm in the last years of his life as he attempted to discover whether Whorf's reply [N4] to Heisenberg's famous lament about our European languages was true -- but I can't really go into that here. Maybe privately if you're interested. So maybe, in order to discuss the linguistic relativity principle cogently, if it is this instead of the ([Anti-]Sapir-)Whorf Hypothesis that we want to discuss, we need to bring in some extra-linguistics, cross-disciplinary data -- like understanding the basic insights of this century's physics, the way Whorf did; in my over 25 years in linguistics, however, I have found few linguists who care. And before we start, we should probably put John Lucy's two _Language diversity and thought_ volumes on the table as the most comprehensive and sensitive treatment to date of this and many related issues. So if we can cast our discussions into this kind of framework, maybe we'll actually get somewhere for the first time, and maybe even talk about interesting ideas! If we want to talk about something particular that Whorf wrote, let's cite page numbers and get to it -- I'll be happy to join such a discussion. But if all you want to do is indulge in some customary Whorf-bashing, as the tone of your post indicates, then don't look for me. [Morgan: Is this what you wanted, or just something simple to rub your dean's nose in? But thanks, from me at least, for opening this thread up.] NOTES: [N1] Alford, "The Demise of the Whorf Hypothesis". BLS-4, 1978 [N2] Alford, "Is Whorf's Relativity Einstein's Relativity?" BLS-7, 1981 [N3] Alford, "A Hidden Cycle in the History of Linguistics -- out of print, defunct journal called PHOENIX: New Directions in the Study of Man [N4] Whorf, "An American Indian Model of the Universe" -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- John Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 08:18:45 EST From: David Muschell dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: 'swan' in TX, ARK Has someone yet mentioned during this thread that the OED lists the verb as derived from a 'prob. north. Eng. dial. I s'wan 'I shall warrant', i.e. 'I'll be bound', and says it was later taken as (folk-etymologized to) a 'minicing substitute for 'swear'. First citation is 1832. There's another slang verb, also largely attested in 'exclamatory asseveration' (don't you just love 'em?), of the form 'swanny', derived by the OED from 'I shall warrant ye'. Anybody ever heard that one? Prob'ly not, I swanny. (No relation to the "Swanny" River, I don't guess.) --Larry Good job! And quick on the draw, pardner...Old Stevie Foster misused the name of the Suwanee River in his "Old Folks at Home," calling it Swanee. Of course, he never even saw the river, which originally was called the "river of reeds" by the natives (Guasaca Esqui [source: Britannica]). The same source says that the present name was probably a slave version of a Spanish name: San Juanee (Little St. John). I'm sure our Waycross correspondant can add more, I swanny. David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 08:31:42 EST From: David Muschell dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: 'swan' in TX, ARK Has someone yet mentioned during this thread that the OED lists the verb as derived from a 'prob. north. Eng. dial. I s'wan 'I shall warrant', i.e. 'I'll be bound', and says it was later taken as (folk-etymologized to) a 'minicing substitute for 'swear'. First citation is 1832. There's another slang verb, also largely attested in 'exclamatory asseveration' (don't you just love 'em?), of the form 'swanny', derived by the OED from 'I shall warrant ye'. Anybody ever heard that one? Prob'ly not, I swanny. (No relation to the "Swanny" River, I don't guess.) --Larry Good job! And quick on the draw, pardner...Old Stevie Foster misused the name of the Suwanee River in his "Old Folks at Home," calling it Swanee. Of course, he never even saw the river, which originally was called the "river of reeds" by the natives (Guasaca Esqui [source: Britannica]). The same source says that the present name was probably a slave version of a Spanish name: San Juanee (Little St. John). I'm sure our Waycross correspondant can add more, I swanny. David Yah!!! I still have my seventh grade English teacher's vituperous condemnation of misspellings ringing in my ears: correspondent, David, _not_ correspondant! Sorry, Mrs. Parrot, may you rest in peas and cues. David ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 22:53:13 GMT From: "Warren A. Brewer" NCUT054[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWNMOE10.BITNET Subject: Swan = swear I swan = I swear My mother (now in seventies) has always said, "Well, I swan." (Maryland, Virginia). At some point, I had analyzed it as "Aswan", i.e., "Aswan Dam" (Cf. Hoover/Boulder thread), hence a euphemism for "damn". She however vehemently rejected my brilliant folk-etymology. ---Wab. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 09:19:00 CST From: Edward Callary TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NIU.BITNET Subject: Re: Algonquian et. al. Thanks; send it by email if you like; after the last in- service class I took, I am now an uploading/downloading fool! If not by email, then a disk please (DOS only) in ASCII, and one hard copy. I prefer WordPerfect 5.1, but any processor which will let you make an ASCII copy is fine. Best wishes, ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 11:51:00 CST From: Edward Callary TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NIU.BITNET Subject: NAMES Last week I sent a message announcing two special issues of NAMES - on computers and on statistics in onomastic research and asked for contributions. The responses have been enlightening, to say the least. I had not known that NAMES was less known that it should be. Several people wrote to ask what it was, what it dealt with, what was onomastics, etc. I thought that the best way to introduce NAMES to members of the list would be to give some general background and then present the tables of contents from the last several issues. So here goes: NAMES is the journal of the American Name Society. Now in its 42nd year of continuous publication, NAMES publishes articles, short notices and book reviews on all aspects of names and naming - personal names, geographical names, uses of names, changing patterns of names, conflicts involving names, names and naming in literature, etc,etc. NAMES is a fully-refereed journal; each submission is read by at least two qualified reviewers. Tables of Contents follow - please make allowances for the mainframe defaults which replace the diacritics and other unreadable characters: NAMES The Journal of the American Name Society Volume 41 June 1993 Number 2 _______ Nicknames in Urban China: A Two-Tiered Model Robert L. Moore 67 Taking Thy Husband's Name: What Might it Mean? Deborah A. Duggan, Albert A. Cota, Kenneth L. Dion 87 Yahoo (Yahu): Notes on the Name of Swift's Yahoos Richard Crider 103 In Memoriam Margaret M. Bryant Leonard R. N. Ashley 111 Book Reviews Acronymania: A Celebratory Roundup of Nomenclature-Yielding Mischief. By Don Hauptman Leonard R. N. Ashley 117 P~!jmen! v sou~asn ~e~tin~. By Miloslava Knappov Ladislav Zgusta 120 The Book of African Names. By Molefi Kete Asante What's in a Name? Unaitwaje? By Sharifa M. Zawawi African Names: Names from the African Continent for Children and Adults. By Julia Stewart Edwin D. Lawson 128 Historia del nombre y de la fundaci"n de M xico. By Gutierre Tib"n Ilan Stavans 131 Claims to Name: Toponyms of St. Lawrence County. Edited by Kelsie B. Harder and Mary H. Smallman Robert M. Rennick 135 NAMES The Journal of the American Name Society Volume 41 September 1993 Number 3 ~~~~~~ Names and Naming Tell an Archetypal Story in Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale Charlotte Templin 143 Power and Placenames: A Case Study From the Contemporary Amazon Frontier J. Timmons Roberts 159 A Pair of Desert Saints: Name Symbolism in Peter Shaffer's Equus Hassell Simpson 183 In Memoriam Michel Grimaud Lawrence M. Baldwin 195 Book Reviews, W.F.H. Nicolaisen gonamn. Edited by Lars Huld n 197 County Down III: The Mournes. Edited by M!che l B. ~ Mainn!n 198 The Place-Names of Shetland. By Jakob Jakobsen 199 Reader zur Namenkunde II: Anthroponymie. Edited by Friedhelm Debus and Wilfried Seibi201 Das Vermessungsprotokoll f r das Kirchspiel Ibbenb ren von 1604/05. By G nter M ller 204 Philologie der ltesten Ortsnamen berlieferung. Edited by Rudolf Sch tzeichel 206 West Lothian Place Names. By John Garth Wilkinson 209 Copyright ~ 1993 by The American Name Society ISSN 0027-7738 NAMES The Journal of the American Name Society Volume 42 March 1994 Number 1 ~~~~~~ Designer Selves in Tom Wolfe's The Bonfire of the Vanities and Danielle Steel's Crossings Hildegard Hoeller 1 Multilingual Gods Anna Partington 13 Parisian Street Names in George Du Maurier's Trilby Elizabeth A. Hait 19 Name, Memory, and Time in Racine's Trojan War Plays Nancy M. McElveen 27 Book Reviews Jewish Personal Names: Their Origin, Derivation and Diminutive Forms. By Shmuel Gorr David L. Gold 39 Apellidos catalanes: Her ldica de Catalunya. By Augusto Cuartas David L. Gold 55 Studies in Third Millennium Sumerian and Akkadian Personal Names: The Designation and Conception of a Personal God. By Robert A. Di Vito Juris G. Lidaka 61 The Ancient and Modern Names of The Channel Islands: A Linguistic History. By Richard Coates Leonard R. N. Ashley 65 Copyright ~ 1994 by The American Name Society ISSN 0027-7738 NAMES The Journal of the American Name Society Volume 42 September 1994 Number 3 ~~~~~~ Naming Patterns of Recent Immigrants from the Former Soviet Union to Israel Edwin D. Lawson and Irina Glushkovskaya 157 Reading the ~Deep Talk~ of Literary Names and Naming Debra Walker King 181 In Memoriam Clarence L. Barnhart E. Wallace McMullen 201 Donald Thomas Clark Lurline H. Coltharp 204 Book Reviews Language in Contemporary Society. Ed. by Jesse Levitt, et. al. Gaylord R. Haas 206 Kentucky~s Bluegrass: A Survey of the Post Offices. By Robert M. Rennick. Kelsie B. Harder 209 Native Canadian Geographical Names: An Annotated Bibliography. Kelsie B. Harder 212 The Guinness Book of Names, 6th ed. By Leslie Dunkling. Frank Nuessel 213 Beyond Jennifer & Jason. By Linda Rosenkrantz and Pamela Redmond Satran.Cleveland Kent Evans 215 The Twelve Days of Christmas: The Mystery and the Meaning. By Thomas L. Bernard. Kelsie B. Harder 222 Dictionary of Russian Personal Names. By Morton Benson. Ladislav Zgusta 223 George Washington Never Slept Here: Stories Behind the Street Names of Washington, D.C. By Amy Alotta. Richard R. Randall 225 Stories Behind the Street Names of Nashville and Memphis. By Denise Strub. Kelsie B. Harder 228 War Slang: American Fighting Words from the Civil War to the Present. By Paul Dickson.Kelsie B. Harder 231 Copyright ~ 1994 by The American Name Society ISSN 0027-7738 NAMES welcomes manuscripts on any aspect(s) of names or naming. Potential contributors need not be members of the American Name Society to submit manuscripts. I you would like to contribute to one or both of the special issues, send an idea paper of not more than one page to the editor. If you would like to submit a manuscript for a regular issue, send three copies to the editor. For additional information about the journal or the Society, or for a free copy of NAMES, write to the editor: Edward Callary Editor, NAMES English Department Northern Illinois University DeKalb, Il 60115 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 10:18:19 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: Re: Birrell Walsh I blush. But for those of you who do not know who Birrell Walsh is, he is the closest in this day & age to a true Renaissance Man that I've found. Master of many trades, jack o' none. I often invite him to talk to my classes -- talk did I say? I meant mezmerize -- regarding his thought experiment which considers Whorf's linguistic relativity principle in terms of different computer programming languages, showing how what is easy to do in one language is exceedingly difficult to do in another. It's a world-class performance. Of course he writes (wrote) a regular computer column for Microtimes, and works in PBS television programming for a local station; and his philosophy and religion knowledge is impeccable. Nice guy, too! Birrell was one of the (auditing) students who made the "Language & Consciousness" class so effective and memorable! -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- John Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 11:04:07 -0400 From: Bob Lancaster SLANCASTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU Subject: Them singulars Well, I did cause a fuss with those "they/them" singulars, didn't I. I take Moonhawk's point: I remember reading once that Meillet or one of those dead French linguists had uncovered a substratum of animacy below/before the sex-gender distinctions. English handles animacy really badly, which is another reason I don't find the plural/singular conflation a problem, and why I for one wouldn't mind if ikind of went away. any living creature whose genitalia we're not interested in or can't immediately tell (neighbor's new baby or dog, a tree, a whale, a bug, a star we label 'IT', as if the creature is dead! I contend our pronoun systems is subtly complicit in it-ting Mother Earth to death because of this basic lack of formal respect. Note this is different from Romance languages where masc/fem/neut are applied to all objects and beings equally, without absolute dependence on sexual characteristics. The English mixing of sexual and grammatical gender is unfortunate, and I guess I too wouldn't mind if it went away. Only thing is, it won't, and I still want to preserve whatever clarity the existing structures have. Actually I like "her" for a generic pronounQnobody can seriously think it means only a female, and it reminds the reader that the sexes ought to be linguistically equal. (And every other "equal" too, in my belief). I wonder if Bob is concerned more with a general breakdown in authority for which I am also concerned. That's a different issue and one on about which I know very little. But grammatical structure is alive and well. Yes, ,Tim, I am concerned, and I do need to apologize for careless semantics in the reference to "grammatical" structure. Although I saw (and see) such usages as "them" singulars (especially in writing), as symptomatic of loss of clarity, it was actually syntactic structure which I had in mind. Uncertain or impenetrable syntactic structures are familiar to all of us who have read student writing in the last two or three decades at least. I would agree that "grammatical" structure has not suffered a general breakdownQ(and of course that good usage in general reflects only the usage of careful speakers; "them" singulars will certainly be standard in fifty or a hundred years, given the current direction of development). Bob Lancaster SUNY-emeritus, English slancaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]colgate.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 10:38:05 -0800 From: Guadalupe Valdes gvaldes[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LELAND.STANFORD.EDU Subject: Re: "swan" not "swear" Can someone help me in signing off from the list server. Much as I enjoy it, I am overwhelemed with e-mail. Somehow, the unsuscribe command isn't working for me. Thanks. Guadalupe Valdes ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 12:13:06 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: pronoun systems, Putnam/Plato essences, haptic perception Still chewing on Prof. Mufwene's comments, and how the pronominal system in one of his native languages, Yansi, distinguishes human/non-human. By which I would interpret that literally to mean that *only* humans are allowed in, and everything else whether animate or inanimate is lumped in the non-human class. This is very similar to English, except we seem to have *person* instead for this -- babies are transformed from IT into gendered persons of he or she; even our pets are allowed in (you may call your neighbor's new dog IT until you know which sex it is), but that noticing of genitalia is inescapable for promotion to personhood in English. Weird, huh? And then, to be fair, we also promote ships and cars and guns to personhood (although ships go back to being 'it' after they're decommissioned!), and -- think of it! -- most English speakers actually used to use the pronoun SHE when referring to Mother Earth, and used to always capitalize Earth! But now, alas, She's slipping into being an IT along with the rest of the universe in our materialist oriented scientific paradigms; no mystery, no wonder left, no questioning as to whether She has spirit and mind. As my friend Sakej said to the quantum physicists, referring to magnificent trees swaying outside our conference room, "Turn around and look out there. What's making those trees do that? You can call it the wind, but you might as well call it spirit." Perhaps I'm wandering, but I really do find the way pronoun systems set you up for dealing with the world in different ways a really fascinating topic. And thank you for the anecdote about your daughter -- priceless! and to the point. It's the Hilary Putnam distinction (between, on the one hand, the essential features of gold or an elm, and on the other, the stereotypes by which the average speaker operates) that I'm still chewing on. Hm -- that sounds suspiciously like the Platonic views that were thrown out when Aristotle defined knowledge for us. Not that I'm against essences -- on the contrary, totally for 'em; I think Aristotle nudged us down a garden path, in a way. But Plato! There's a thinker from a time before all our Western European conceptual scaffolding and structuring got in place -- MUCH closer than anyone since to the indigenous mind. You see, it's this very notion of 'essences' that got lost: the notion that there is something actually out there beyond your own construction of the world, your conceptions (stereotypes), that is 'touched' directly. This is in line with the Pribram/Bohm conceptions of a holographic mind interpreting a holographic universe: what we 'receive' from 'out there' comes in the form of synesthetic patterned vibrations which our mind then, through Fourier Transforms, separates out into the different sense modalities in different vibration ranges (visual, auditory, kinesthetic, taste, smell), as well as emotions, etc. In fact, says Sakej, Plato also recognized a certain knowing that arises from the land itself -- but let's let Sakej speak for himself: *********** Plato, best understood as a pre-eurocentric author, listed three great modes of being in the universe: reason, sensation and chora. Reason concerned eternal ideas (changeless forms with no location), and the sensory was viewed as transient copies of the external forms or perceptual data, but chora was the receptacle of sensory experience and the seat of phenomena. Chora is the oldest Greek world for "place", found also in Homer and Hesiod. Later it was changed to topos in Aristole's works, e.g., mere location or objective features of a place, the "inert container of experience". But to the ancients such as Plato it was an active container connected with the matrix of enegeries of a place. It had the qualities of mutual immanence. Chora is known by haptic perceptions. Derived from ghrebh (dig or lay hold to something), haptic perception is a wholistic perception distinct from seeing, hearing or thinking, a unified structure of feeling and doing. It is like "pathetecture" (emotional response to a building) and "psychagogy" (power of a place to move the soul, the expressive energies of a place), or simply the caring or grasping the sense of the place. This isn't Greek to me. ************************************************** (PS -- Prof. Mufwene: I'll send you separately the SUMmary on claims by American Indians about their languages concerning non-metaphoricity, non-arbitrariness, etc. Your pre-Euro- influenced indigenous mind will probably enjoy it.) -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- John Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 15:28:02 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Them singulars On Tue, 8 Nov 1994, Bob Lancaster wrote: Uncertain or impenetrable syntactic structures are familiar to all of us who have read student writing in the last two or three decades at least. I would agree that "grammatical" structure has not suffered a general breakdownQ(and of course that good usage in general reflects only the usage of careful speakers I know what you mean, of course, Bob. And lot of what we see in student writing might represent real linguistic events like inflectional loss, consonant cluster reduction, homophony (weather/whether; where/were/wear). But a lot of it, too, isn't so much structural as a result of trial and error atempts to create stuctures they think they know but don't, or attempts to sound formal. Much of this is a literacy issue; contemporary students don't come from backgrounds which value literacy. (I polled a class of juniors a few years ago -- these were mostly computer science and ag majors--and asked them to list the books they'd read in the past five years, excluding college texts. About half answered 0; one replied "I hate to read.") I react to student writing as you do. I am getting tired of assigning it. It makes me think of early retirement. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 22:35:30 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: "swan" not "swear" Oh, yeah, "I swan" has been around a long time; both extended sides of our family for at least three generations. These are Southerners with American "roots" in the Carolinas and later "roots" in Arkansas. All Southern protestants. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 22:49:59 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: 'swan' in TX, ARK I heard 'swanny' as well as 'swan' from relatives, those with stronger religious convictions. And I remember recognizing as a young 'un that 'I swan' was a euphemism for 'I swear' and that 'swanny' was a little broader -- "Well, swanny!" euphemized something else. DMLance ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Nov 1994 to 8 Nov 1994 ********************************************** There are 7 messages totalling 154 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. pronoun systems, Putnam/Plato essences, haptic perception (2) 2. re Prof. Mufwene's reply (2) 3. word geography 4. swan/swanny (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 8 Nov 1994 22:35:10 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: pronoun systems, Putnam/Plato essences, haptic perception a) Moonhawk's description of Plato sounds SO MUCH like modern Phenomenologists when they are alert (only part of the time) that we may find in them sympathetic ears for for neo-indigeny? b) Is itold news to the folks on this list that the pronouns in American Sign Language are spatial? You point (often with the nose, BTW) to a space when talking about, say, John. Thenceforth that space serves as a pronoun for John - you can talk to it, receive things from it, have it talk to another space-which-is-serving-pronominally, and in every way use it as we use pronoun's in English... Birrell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 09:53:12 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: pronoun systems, Putnam/Plato essences, haptic perception In Message Tue, 8 Nov 1994 12:13:06 -0800, Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s1.csuhayward.edu writes: Your pre-Euro- influenced indigenous mind will probably enjoy it.) -- Moonhawk (%- ) I suppose I should be fair and give you a chance to save face, because I could take offense at this characterization. So let me say I cannot interpret your use of "indigenous" in this context, because what you discuss has nothing to do with my personal cultural background or my native land, and I happen to live as an expatriate now in what I take to be YOUR country. So in a way, you could be characterized as indigenous, if this term is used objectively! Neither do I see a chronological order between my mental development and that of people of European descent. This reflects how I am invited to interpret your "pre-Euro-influenced ... mind." Maybe I should ignore it all? Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 11:23:20 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: re Prof. Mufwene's reply Please do ignore it all. It was truly intended as a (perhaps misguided?) sign of respect and perhaps a covert message to your subconscious on how to receive it, and as a (feeble?) attempt to be personal, whether invited or not, via a faceless and impersonal medium. I have not yet mastered proper Emoticonography as I should (;- Moonhawk PS -- "indigenous": actually I prefer to take that word politically rather than objectively, where it loses most of its meaning and force. And there is a small part of me that is indigenous in both senses of the term, and that I honor whenever I can.(:0) And thank you for allowing me to save face! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 16:52:30 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: re Prof. Mufwene's reply In Message Wed, 9 Nov 1994 11:23:20 -0800, Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s1.csuhayward.edu writes: Please do ignore it all. I will. Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 20:17:47 -0600 From: Daniel S Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: word geography Some terms that I think identify me as being from a fairly narrow area: The nearest city has a downtown section called The Stockade. roomeke -- guest at a bungalow colony (this also identifies my ethnic group) doodlebug -- a car converted into a tractor. Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 22:32:13 EST From: Michael Montgomery N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU Subject: swan/swanny I have heard "swanny" all my life from my mother, who was born in southern Alabama. "Swan" is what I heard from my fellow East Tennesseans, however, when I was growing up. So there may be an Upper South/Lower South disctinction here as with a number of other items. The usual "etymology" of the term is from Scots "I's warrant (ye)" = "I shall warrant you" or more loosely, "I'll guarantee you". Somewhere in my youth I surmised or it was explained to me that the form in more recent times is understood to be a euphemism for "swear". The latter word was to be avoided because Jesus in the Sermon on the Mount called for his followers not "to swear by any power in heaven or on earth" (loose quotation from memory) and so the use of "swan/swanny" as an expression of either disgust/anger or surprise at least avoided the letter of this Scriptural injunction. If I'm not mistaken, this was also taken to heart during colonial days, especially by Quakers, when people refused to take oaths such as "I do solemnly swear ..." Our Presidential and other oaths of office read, or used to read, as follows: "I do solemnly swear (or affirm) ..." Anyone know for sure? Michael Montgomery, Dept of English, U of South Carolina, Columbia SC 29208 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Nov 1994 21:48:50 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: swan/swanny I should have added to my earlier posting that my reason for interpreting 'I swan' as a euphemism for 'I swear' was that my mother and others would sometimes correct themselves, replacing the latter with the former. A cousin's (female) use of 'swanny' is the strongest echo in my head, and she used as an equivalent to 'I swan' but used both. All this is aside from the etymologies, which we appreciate, and which are no doubt historically accurate. The 'swanny' people I have in mind were born in Arkansas and spent much of their lives in Texas. DMLance ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Nov 1994 to 9 Nov 1994 ********************************************** There are 13 messages totalling 238 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. word geography (7) 2. Freeway names (3) 3. where did _this_ come from? 4. Weimar, TX! 5. sow bugs, rolly-pollies (sp?) vs. pill bugs and doodlebugs, etc ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 08:57:31 -0500 From: Robert Kelly kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU Subject: Re: word geography With two of those words (The Stockade, roomeke) you could be from Ellenville NY (or anywhere on the western slopes of the southern Catskills). Only doodlebug affirms the north midlands, I guess. RK ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 10:06:39 EST From: LORI B BALDRIDGE lbbald01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: word geography BEING FROM EASTERN KENTUCY I ALWAYS HEARD THE TERM DOODLEBUG REFER TO THE LITTLE BROWN BUGS THAT LIVE UNDERGROUND. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 11:53:14 EST From: Mark Ingram MAINGR01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UKCC.UKY.EDU Subject: Re: word geography On Thu, 10 Nov 1994 10:06:39 EST LORI B BALDRIDGE said: BEING FROM EASTERN KENTUCY I ALWAYS HEARD THE TERM DOODLEBUG REFER TO THE LITTLE BROWN BUGS THAT LIVE UNDERGROUND. Me too. :-) Louisville in the 1950s. Mark Ingram maingr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 13:08:48 EST From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: word geography BEING FROM EASTERN KENTUCY I ALWAYS HEARD THE TERM DOODLEBUG REFER TO THE LITTLE BROWN BUGS THAT LIVE UNDERGROUND. There was trouble in my neighborhood in San Antonio, Texas. We--children of parents from Weimar, Texas--called the multiple-legged arthropod that curled up when touched a doodlebug, but the kids next door from Kansas called ant lions doodlebugs. They called our doodlebug a pill bug. There were other problems too, but I've got to go to the library now and review 76 requests for development money. You'd think that I was on a search committee or something. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 14:37:38 EST From: Mark Ingram MAINGR01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UKCC.UKY.EDU Subject: Re: word geography On Thu, 10 Nov 1994 13:08:48 EST Wayne Glowka said: BEING FROM EASTERN KENTUCY I ALWAYS HEARD THE TERM DOODLEBUG REFER TO THE LITTLE BROWN BUGS THAT LIVE UNDERGROUND. There was trouble in my neighborhood in San Antonio, Texas. We--children of parents from Weimar, Texas--called the multiple-legged arthropod that curled up when touched a doodlebug, but the kids next door from Kansas called ant lions doodlebugs. They called our doodlebug a pill bug. There Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College The plot thickens. :-) We called pill bugs roley poleys (spel?). Or sow bugs. I have a running debate with colleagues over what a June bug is. I say it's big and green. Others claim it is the small brown bug on your screens at night in the summer. I call those hardshell bugs. Any ideas folks? Mark Ingram maingr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 14:48:15 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: word geography That critter that Wayne wrote about, that curls up when you touch it--looks like a trilobyte, right?--is a SOW BUG around here. (Of course, it's not an insect). That may be a book word. Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 15:30:59 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: word geography That critter that Wayne wrote about, that curls up when you touch it--looks like a trilobyte, right?--is a SOW BUG around here. (Of course, it's not an insect). That may be a book word. No, no -- it's a rolypoly! --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 13:22:15 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: Freeway names Being new, I know not whether you have discussed the major NoCAL vs SoCAL dialectal distinction I've noticed -- re: how freeways are referred to. In Southern California it's always: you take *the* 101 to *the* 405..., whereas in Northern California you take 101 to 680. Since I was raised in LA but am now firmly in the SF area, and now firmly 101 to 680 and only dimly remember the *the* dialect that I grew up with as the LA freeways changed a somewhat sleepy local eventually into a megalopolis (as the old city trains became a distant memory and pennies put on rusting tracks got flattened no more) -- I'm intrigued: why didn't the *the* spread with the corresponding word and item to just 350 miles north? Is this part of some larger *DET-ARTICLE DROP* Bay Areal feature? -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- John Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 15:24:43 -0800 From: Judith Rascoe boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: where did _this_ come from? In an American textbook, "The New Business Arithmetic", 1906, I came across a set of questions all framed in the same form: 'What cost 218 gallons of syrup at 50cents per gallon?' 'What cost 26840 yards of calico at 8 1/3 cents per yard?' The "What cost [sub]" is grammatically correct, but it seems very archaic even for l906. Or was it? Can anybody explain this usage? The numerous very-American items mentioned in the book lead me to believe it's not a translation from another language. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 19:16:13 -0500 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: Weimar, TX! What a surprise, Wayne Glowka, to hear from someone who has heard of, even has parents from, Weimar, TX. I never actually lived there, but some of my early years of schooling were in Gonzales and Waelder! HOw did you ge t from San Antonio to Millidgeville? Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 17:03:53 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: sow bugs, rolly-pollies (sp?) vs. pill bugs and doodlebugs, etc Growing up in LA of of Arkansas hillbilly heritage, surrounded by other Arkies and Okies in Wilmington (doesn't seem right to call it a suburb! -- what are surrounding towns/cities called on the West Coast anyway?), I called 'them' sow bugs as the 'serious' name, rolly-pollies as a kind of 'cute' name. Later I heard them called pill bugs from an LA woman of Iowa roots (I'm sorry -- LA here means L.A., not Louisiana) -- and doodlebug, why that was just as abstract word I'd heard, but not in relation to 'them'. June bugs I think I heard about on trips to Texas, Arkansas, etc., but I likewise didn't know they might refer to 'them'. Hardshell bugs sounds very descriptive but very foreign. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 21:18:57 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Freeway names "the 101" reminds of CB jargon which has "that 105", etc. I dunno why it didn't spread; I don't know much about California. I only went once, when MLA was in SF in 1975. Don't SFers hate LA? (BTW, I just read that there's a movenment for the northern counties to secede. Is that a strong sentiment?) Prop 187, whew. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 20:53:04 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: Freeway names On Thu, 10 Nov 1994, Dan Alford wrote: I'm intrigued: why didn't the *the* spread with the corresponding word and item to just 350 miles north? Is this part of some larger *DET-ARTICLE DROP* Bay Areal feature? I am curious about the (related?) partitivized noun, which is growing in unfortunate prominence: First, the American "In the hospital" started giving way to "in hospital". Then I started hearing "in studio" for "in the studio". Then the idiom became "I'll get staff's input," rather than "the staff's input." To my ear, hospital, staff and studio are being thus transformed into partititve nouns - is that the right word? The kind like "butter" and "water", for which units must have counters (a glass of, a stick of), and the indefinite pronoun before does not indicate one unit, but one kind ("Perrier is a good water; Calistoga is a great water.") Mayhap we have partitive freeways in Northern California. I mean, "partitive freeway." Birrell ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Nov 1994 to 10 Nov 1994 *********************************************** There are 14 messages totalling 300 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Freeway names (5) 2. word geography (5) 3. Michael Miller 4. motivation for 'swan' 5. subscription 6. Eighty-six ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Nov 1994 21:56:05 -0800 From: Roger Vanderveen rvander[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ICHIPS.INTEL.COM Subject: Re: Freeway names Being new, I know not whether you have discussed the major NoCAL vs SoCAL dialectal distinction I've noticed -- re: how freeways are referred to. In Southern California it's always: you take *the* 101 to *the* 405..., whereas in Northern California you take 101 to 680. Since I was raised in Yes, but there are some roads in the Bay Area which are often referred to with the article: the Montague (or, Montague Expressway) NEVER "the San Tomas", but sometimes "the Lawrence Expressway." Sometimes "the Nimitz" or "the Bayshore" but never "the 880" or "the 101." And 680; does anyone even know what the Sinclair Freeway is? And the one I detest the most: "THE El Camino!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: Freeway names birrell walsh says that "in the hospital" is giving way to "in hospital". this is news to me--is it particularly californian? but i don't think that the "the" before hospital, school, etc. is related to the "the" before route numbers, since in south africa (and i'm presuming england) where they use "in hospital" they also use the "the" before route numbers, as in "take the M1 to the M2". saw a local production of _angels in america_ here and was stunned by the skill that the actors had in producing american accents. but the illusion was shattered everytime they said "in hospital" (undoubtedly not in the original script) and when they erroneously put flaps in "utah". lynne ______________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 South Africa "Comprehension is only a knowledge adequate to our intention." --Immanuel Kant ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 08:13:24 EST From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: word geography The plot thickens. :-) We called pill bugs roley poleys (spel?). Or sow bugs. I have a running debate with colleagues over what a June bug is. I say it's big and green. Others claim it is the small brown bug on your screens at night in the summer. I call those hardshell bugs. Any ideas folks? Mark Ingram maingr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu I know both sow bugs and roley poleys, and I can't say where I learned either. As a matter of fact, I may be making the kids from Kansas responsible for more than they actually were responsible for. A June bug to me is a small brown bug that is fun to throw in someone's hair; to my in-laws in central Georgia June bugs are indeed big and green and make all that racket in the summer. I call them locusts. My cats call them good food. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 09:42:58 EST From: Mark Ingram MAINGR01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UKCC.UKY.EDU Subject: Re: word geography On Fri, 11 Nov 1994 08:13:24 EST Wayne Glowka said: The plot thickens. :-) We called pill bugs roley poleys (spel?). Or sow bugs. I have a running debate with colleagues over what a June bug is. I say it's big and green. Others claim it is the small brown bug on your screens at night in the summer. I call those hardshell bugs. Any ideas folks? Mark Ingram maingr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu I know both sow bugs and roley poleys, and I can't say where I learned either. As a matter of fact, I may be making the kids from Kansas responsible for more than they actually were responsible for. A June bug to me is a small brown bug that is fun to throw in someone's hair; to my in-laws in central Georgia June bugs are indeed big and green and make all that racket in the summer. I call them locusts. My cats call them good food. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN Wayne, thanks for the description of the bugs we all know and love? but have different names for. I find that I have to describe, just the way you did the different critters, because we don't share the same terms for them. Here is the list so far... sow bug, pill bug, rolley polley (spel?) June bug (large green bug on fruit, vegetables in the garden) June bug (small brown bug on the screens at night, very good for scaring girls) June bug, locust, cicada This is pretty trivial stuff, but I have found it hard to communicate using layman's terms when talking about the various creepy crawlies. BTW cats eat those small brown bugs too! Now what do you undertand by the term mayfly? Thanks. Mark Ingram Lexington, Ky maingr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 10:20:19 -0500 From: "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr." billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU Subject: Michael Miller I am sorry to report that Mike Miller has died after a long illness, in Augusta, GA, to which he had moved this year from his long-time base in Chicago. A good friend to many of us in the ADS, he was frequently in attendance and giving papers at national and regional meetings. A student of Raven McDavid, Mike's dissertation was on the speech of Augusta; he had completed a manuscript on Augusta speech which will before long be in print (arrangements are pending), and his materials are preserved in the Linguistic Atlas archives here at UGA. Mike was among the earliest and most proficient users of quantitative techniques in dialectology, and among the foremost of those who could bridge the gap between traditional dialectology and sociolinguistics. Mike was also my associate editor on *Journal of English Linguistics*, and played a key role in the internationalization of the journal during the 1980s. We will miss him. Memorial services are being arranged (planning incomplete) for both Augusta and Chicago. Regards, Bill ****************************************************************************** Bill Kretzschmar Phone: 706-542-2246 Dept. of English FAX: 706-542-2181 University of Georgia Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu Athens, GA 30602-6205 Bitnet: wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 11:21:08 EST From: DONNIE J GRAYSON djgray02[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: motivation for 'swan' My mother was born and raised in Boyd County, Eastern Kentucky. And she has not traveled extensively, so I think she just substituted 'swan' herself, and it just happens to be that people elsewhere use it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 11:48:11 EST From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: word geography Now what do you undertand by the term mayfly? A mayfly is a smushy bug that appears after rain in July. It has big wings and can't fly too well. When I lived up North, I read everything I could about catching the mythical fish called the trout. Trout are said to strike at pieces of feather and cloth made to look like mayflies. It being unethical to catch trout with worms and such, I tied all kinds of flies in order to hook my ear and hat. The only living trout I ever saw was under some tree roots. A child with a stiff dead trout showed me that flies were nonsense. He jumped into the water and tried to scoop up the terrified fishery-bred animal with a landing net--the same net he had used to catch the stiff dead fish. I went back to catfish and other pedestrian breeds on that day. The whole process was too much like trying to get a job in a research university. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 09:23:13 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: Freeway names On Thu, 10 Nov 1994, Timothy C. Frazer wrote: [snip] Prop 187, whew. Yeah, prop 187 is big trouble. Hopefully the courts will stop most of it. Bizarrely, polls reported that half of Blacks and the majority of Asian voters were for it. Bet that it a year or two, nobody will admit tohaving voted for it. Birrell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 09:29:28 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: Freeway names On Fri, 11 Nov 1994, M. Lynne Murphy wrote: [South African actors] put flaps in "utah". eh? whazzis "flaps in Utah" Puzzled in Frisco ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 09:30:53 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: word geography How many areas call water striders "Jesus Bugs"? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 15:22:03 -0500 From: Martha Howard UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU Subject: subscription unsub-ads-l ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 16:42:20 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Freeway names I am pretty sure that "in hospital" has been part of British usage for years, ditto "he graduated university." Tim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 16:44:41 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: word geography In no. Illinois the brown bugs on your window screen are june bugs, except they aren't always very small. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Nov 1994 22:05:34 -0500 From: Abigail Sarah Margulies asm16[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLUMBIA.EDU Subject: Eighty-six On Wed, 2 Nov 1994, Edward Callary wrote: Thanks to all who have written in response to my request for information on the origin of the name of RU486. They iterate the two stories which I have heard: first that RU stand for the lab which developed the drug: Roussel Uclaf of France; second that RU-486 is wordplay on they spelling: Are You For 86; 86 for killing, stopping, halting, aborting. I've been trying to track down the derivation of "86." Does anyone know where it comes from? Abbie ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Nov 1994 to 11 Nov 1994 ************************************************ There are 5 messages totalling 414 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. swan/swanny (and Suwanee) 2. Singular "they" 3. Discourse conference final call 4. Eighty-six (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 08:55:00 EDT From: "David A. Johns" DJOHNS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UFPINE.BITNET Subject: swan/swanny (and Suwanee) # Old Stevie Foster misused the name of the Suwanee River in his # "Old Folks at Home," calling it Swanee. Of course, he never even # saw the river, which originally was called the "river of reeds" # by the natives (Guasaca Esqui [source: Britannica]). The same # source says that the present name was probably a slave version of # a Spanish name: San Juanee (Little St. John). I'm sure our # Waycross correspondant can add more, I swanny. Is that me? One question: Just north of the Florida border the Suwanee joins the Suwanoochee. What's the pidgin Spanish etymology for THAT? Back to "swan/swanny": I haven't heard that around here (I'll have to ask around), but when I first moved to Florida, I noticed that a lot of folks seemed to use "promise" where I'd use "swear", as in "I never touched your skate board, I promise!" I assume this extension of "promise" is another result of the taboo on "swear". David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 08:58:00 EDT From: "David A. Johns" DJOHNS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UFPINE.BITNET Subject: Singular "they" Bob Lancaster said: # Although I saw (and see) such usages as "them" singulars # (especially in writing), as symptomatic of loss of clarity, Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the issue here is whether the singular "they" is in fact unclear. The usage is extremely common both in real life and on television (even in prepared material such as commercials and news reports), and yet, even though I've consciously listened for cases of ambiguity for years, I've never actually heard one. Have you? David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 12:13:54 -0500 From: Shari Kendall KENDALLS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: Discourse conference final call updated 11/12/94 FINAL CALL FOR PAPERS Abstract and Colloquium Proposal Deadline: November 18, 1994 ********** The Georgetown Linguistics Society presents GLS 1995 DEVELOPMENTS IN DISCOURSE ANALYSIS ********** February 17-19, 1995 Georgetown University, Washington D.C. **PLENARY SPEAKERS** FREDERICK ERICKSON Graduate School of Education University of Pennsylvania CHARLES GOODWIN Department of Anthropology University of South Carolina HEIDI HAMILTON Department of Linguistics Georgetown University DEBORAH SCHIFFRIN Department of Linguistics Georgetown University ROGER SHUY Department of Linguistics Georgetown University DEBORAH TANNEN Department of Linguistics Georgetown University GLS 1995, DEVELOPMENTS IN DISCOURSE ANALYSIS, is an interdisciplinary conference featuring presentations and colloquia focusing on all aspects of discourse analysis. Topics range from discourse analytic theory to the use of discourse analysis as a tool in other disciplines. Any research that focuses on language data at the discourse level is appropriate, including, but not limited to, work in cognitive science, conversational analysis, communication studies, critical discourse analysis, interactional sociolinguistics, linguistic anthropology, rhetoric, psychology, sociology, and text linguistics. The deadline for abstracts and colloquium proposals is November 18, 1994. The conference will begin late morning Friday and end late afternoon on Sunday. A reception will be held Saturday evening. SUBMITTING AN ABSTRACT: Individual presentation of papers will be 20 minutes long with 10 additional minutes for discussion. Please send three copies of a 250-word double-spaced abstract. On a separate sheet, provide your name, paper title, mailing and e-mail addresses, phone number, and institutional affiliation. In addition, please submit a 100-word typed, single-spaced summary for the conference program, headed by your name, affiliation, and paper title. SUBMITTING A COLLOQUIUM PROPOSAL: The GLS invites proposals for two-hour colloquia. Please submit all abstracts for presentation in a colloquium together, accompanied by a cover letter which explains how the individual presentations relate to one another and to the themes of the colloquium and the conference. The cover letter should provide the organizer's name, mailing and e-mail addresses, phone number, and institutional affiliation. In addition, the organizer should include a 100-word description of the entire colloquium for the conference program. ACCOMMODATIONS *on the Georgetown University campus* Georgetown University Conference Center 202-687-3200, 1-800-446-9476 $109 single, $124 double (up to four occupants) Make reservations as soon as possible. *Georgetown area* Georgetown Dutch Inn 202-337-0900, 1-800-388-2410 1075 Thomas Jefferson, N.W. (off of M St.). 10 minute walk to GU. $100 one bedroom suites. (1 queen or 2 twins and pull-out bed) Make reservations by February 6. Holiday Inn 202-338-4600, 1-800-holiday 2101 Wisconsin Ave., N.W. Buses run down Wisconsin. Get off at O St and walk 5 blocks to GU. $79 single, $92 double, triple, quadruple. Make reservations by January 6. *Rosslyn area of Virginia* (just across Potomac from GU) Key Bridge Marriot 703-524-6400, 1-800-642-3234 1401 Lee Highway, Arlington VA. Walk (about 30 minutes) or taxi across bridge to GU. $89 single, double, triple, quadruple. Make reservations by January 26. *Dupont Circle area in Washington* Davis House, 202-232-3196 1822 R St., N.W. 2 long blocks to G2 bus. $30/person shared rooms, $35/person single room (Price includes tax. Coffee and tea is served) Radisson, Barcelo 202-293-3100, 1-800-333-3333 (toll free number available after reservation) 2121 P. St., N.W. 1 block to G2 bus. $89 single, double, $104 triple, $119 quadruple *Foggy Bottom area of Washington* Inn at Foggy Bottom, 202-337-6620 824 New Hampshire Ave., N.W. Walk to D buses. 35 minute walk to campus. $79 single and double, $99 triple and quadruple (Includes continental breakfast) *Downtown Washington* Washington International Youth Hostel 202-737-2333 1009 11th St., N.W. 2 blocks to D buses. $20.00 (Linens available for $2, $5 deposit) *Van Ness area of Washington* Days Inn, 202-244-5600, 1-800-952-3060 4400 Connecticut Avenue. 1 block to Van Ness metro. Take to Dupont Circle. $69 flat rate. Make reservations before January 16. *Bed and Breakfast Locations* Bed and Breakfast Accommodations, Ltd. 202-328-3510, fax: 202-332-3885 P.O. Box 12011, Washington, DC 20005 Prices vary according to location. TRANSPORTATION *Getting to Georgetown University from hotels* GU is located at 37th and O Streets, N.W. *. . . by bus* (202-637-7000) The buses that serve GU are the G2, D2, D4, D6, and D8 buses. The G2 bus arrives at the main gate of GU. The D4 and D8 buses arrive on the north side of campus at Reservoir and 38th. The D2, D4, D6, and D8 buses arrive at 35th and Q Sts. (3 blocks to GU). *. . . by metro* (202-637-7000) The metro stations nearest GU are Dupont Circle, Rosslyn, and Foggy Bottom. To get to GU from Dupont Circle: 30 minute walk west on P St. G2 bus at 20th & P. D4 and D8 at 2nd & P Sts. Taxi is about $3.20. From Rosslyn: 25 minute walk across Key Bridge. (No buses to GU). From Foggy Bottom: 35 minute walk. D buses. *Transportation from area airports* National Airport is on the metro line. There is no metro station near Dulles Airport or BWI. The Washington Flyer Express Bus (703-685-1400) serves National ($8) and Dulles ($16), leaving every 20-30 minutes non-stop to 1517 K Street, N.W., one block from the McPherson Square metro station at 15th & I Sts. The Washington Flyer shuttle bus runs every 20-30 minutes from Dulles Airport to the Falls Church metro station ($8). A taxi from National Airport to Georgetown University costs $9.70, from Dulles, about $40- $45. From BWI, take the Airport Connection bus (301-441- 2345) to downtown Washington ($14) or the MARC train (800-325-7245) ($4) or Amtrak (800-872-7245) ($10) to Union Station, which is on the metro line. The MARC train does not run on weekends. *Getting to GU ... by train* Union Station is on the metro line. A taxi to GU costs about $5.50. *... by bus* The Greyhound Bus Terminal is located at 1st and L Streets, N.E., 4 blocks from the Union Station metro station. *... by car* From the Capitol Beltway (I-495, which encircles Washington), the least complicated route is to take the Wisconsin Avenue exit (in the N.W. section of the loop) and to follow Wisconsin down to the heart of Georgetown. PARKING AT GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY Parking in Georgetown neighborhoods is difficult, but there is free parking on weekends in Lot 3 in the southwest corner of campus, which can be entered off of Prospect Street or Canal Road. On Friday, parking in this lot is $11 for the day, although we are trying to negotiate a rate for the conference. Mention the Georgetown Linguistics Society Conference to the parking attendant. TWO GEORGETOWN CONFERENCES: GLS 1995 and GURT 1995 GLS 1995, Developments in Discourse Analysis, is sponsored, in part, by the Georgetown University School of Languages and Linguistics and the Georgetown University Graduate Student Organization. The School of Languages and Linguistics also sponsors the Georgetown University Round Table on Languages and Linguistics (GURT). GURT 1995 will be held March 6 to 11, 1995 on the topic, Linguistics and the Education of Second Language Teachers: Ethnolinguistic, Psycholinguistic and Sociolinguistic Aspects. For further information about GURT 1995, please contact Carolyn A. Straehle, Coordinator, School of Languages and Linguistics, 303 Intercultural Center, Georgetown University, Washington, DC 20057- 1067; (e-mail) gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet or gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax. georgetown.edu; (voice) 202-687-5726. HOW TO CONTACT GLS 1995 Registrations and requests for information about GLS 1995, Developments in Discourse Analysis, may be addressed to the Georgetown Linguistics Society: GLS 1995 Georgetown University Department of Linguistics 479 Intercultural Center Washington, D.C. 20057-1068 internet: gls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu bitnet: gls[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet voice: 202-687-6166 Regularly updated information about GLS 1995 is also available through the World-Wide Web Georgetown Linguistics Home Page: http://www.georgetown.edu/cball/gu_lx.html ____________________________________________________ PRE-REGISTRATION FORM FOR **GLS 1995** (Please provide your name and affiliation as you wish them to appear on your badge.) Name: Affiliation: Mailing address: E-mail address: Phone number: Registration Fee. Please remit the appropriate registration fee in the form of a check or money order made payable to "Georgetown University": Student Non-Student Preregistration (through Feb. 10) $20.00 $30.00 On-site registration $30.00 $40.00 Other Needs: If you have any special requirements other than those listed below, please inform the GLS no later than January 15, 1995 so that appropriate arrangements may be made. Do you require American Sign Language interpretation? Do you want crash space? (Space is limited. Priority will be given to students on a first-come basis.) Do you want to be added to a room-sharing distribution list? ______________________________________________________ PLEASE DISTRIBUTE THIS ANNOUNCEMENT AS WIDELY AS POSSIBLE. THANK YOU. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 12:31:44 -0500 From: Robert Kelly kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU Subject: Re: Eighty-six The folk wisdom I grew up hearing had it that 86 arose from short order cook/counterman/waiter jargon, and meant "we're out of" or "cancel the order" depending on who was speaking. (An interesting instance of context modulating actual denotation.) I have heard other two and three digit code terms as well, from the same context (I recall that one meant "glass of water," another "order of toast"), but can't remember the actual digits. And would-be writers think it's professional to type -30-30- at the end of the story, = The End. Best, RK ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Nov 1994 13:40:45 CST From: Mike Picone MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU Subject: Re: Eighty-six Though I don't have an exact date, I can confirm that RU 486, invented in France, was produced there under that name long before it ever made it to American shores. The RU most certainly stands for Roussel-Uclaf, the pharmaceutical concern that introduced it. In birth control (and the controversy associated with aspects of it) many calqued expressions and many terms have crossed the Altantic in the other direction: planning familial, contraception (1929), contraceptif (1955), la "pilule", Operation Sauvetage, "Le Cri Silencieux", etc., but RU 486 is not one of them. It is a direct import from France. Here is a terminologically interesting passage from a pro-life pamphlet appearing in Sept. 1992: Un projet de loi socialiste visant a la depenalisation de l'auto-avortement, dont le seul but, au dela du rideau de fumee des bons sentiments, etait d'ouvrir la porte a la vente libre du RU 486 -- l'avortement-kit ou le revolver dans le tiroir de la table de nuit, selon l'heureuse expression du professeur Lejeune -- a ete repousse, grace au courage et a la lucidite du Senat essentiellement. On n'en a pratiquement pas parle. C'est pourtant une deroute pour les fondamentalistes du lobby pro-avortement. Mike Picone University of Alabama MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.UA.EDU ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Nov 1994 to 12 Nov 1994 ************************************************ There is one message totalling 11 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. swan/swanny (and Suwanee) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 01:31:47 -0500 From: "Gregory J. Pulliam" HUMPULLIAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MINNA.ACC.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: swan/swanny (and Suwanee) Has anyone heard a tie-in for Sewanee, TN? Is this just a corrupt spelling "corrupt" (I love that usage of corrupt) spelling of Suwanee, or is there some other es xplana tion? The Suwanne river runs nowhere near Sewanne ee, TN. , BTW. GJP ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Nov 1994 to 13 Nov 1994 ************************************************ There are 9 messages totalling 176 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. On the other 86 (4) 2. Freeway names (2) 3. word geography (2) 4. where did _this_ come from? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 00:07:33 -0600 From: Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CWIS.UNOMAHA.EDU Subject: On the other 86 When you're thrown out of bar, you got 86'd. (San Francisco, 1968) -- Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu "What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other." -Clifford Geertz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 22:15:21 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: On the other 86 On Mon, 14 Nov 1994, Joan Livingston-Webber wrote: When you're thrown out of bar, you got 86'd. (San Francisco, 1968) My mother uses "86'd" this way. She's been a Californian all her 82 years, except for some army time in WWII in the WAAC. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Nov 1994 23:56:55 -0800 From: "Joseph B. Monda" monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU Subject: Re: On the other 86 I first heard the expression "86" in milwaukee in 1949 from the lips of a KC Mo native who explained that it related to the number of a Kansas City Ordnance having to do with illegal drinking (at that time we wer both under age. Eheu fugaces labuntur anni!) Joe Monda On Sun, 13 Nov 1994, Birrell Walsh wrote: On Mon, 14 Nov 1994, Joan Livingston-Webber wrote: When you're thrown out of bar, you got 86'd. (San Francisco, 1968) My mother uses "86'd" this way. She's been a Californian all her 82 years, except for some army time in WWII in the WAAC. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: Freeway names On Fri, 11 Nov 1994, M. Lynne Murphy wrote: [South African actors] put flaps in "utah". eh? whazzis "flaps in Utah" (actually, i should've said "a flap in utah") flap = what americans do to t's between vowels (why no one here knows what i'm talking about when i ask for a "glaess uv waddrr") ______________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 South Africa "Comprehension is only a knowledge adequate to our intention." --Immanuel Kant ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 08:11:00 EST From: David Muschell dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: On the other 86 Though the OED makes a slight pass at the etymology of 86 (indicating the origin may have come about through a rhyme with "nix"), the Morris Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins gives an interesting run-down on soda jerks' code numbers of the '20's. 33 was for Cherry Coke, for example; 98 was the code for the assistant manager and came to be associated with "pest"; 87 1/2 was the code for the boys to be on the lookout for a good-looking girl coming their way; and 86 was the code number when an item wasn't in stock. The reference goes on to say that the soda fountain code number got passed into bartender's lingo as a way of alerting another server that a customer had had enough to imbibe and no more booze should be poured for that particular guzzler. Old Dad met Mom there at the fountain where he lured her into conversation with free Sundaes, phosphates, and banana splits. I'll ask him about the code, though his malting days were in the early forties. David ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 07:57:28 -0800 From: Allen Maberry maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: word geography In Portland, OR it was called a sow bug. Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu On Thu, 10 Nov 1994, Natalie Maynor wrote: That critter that Wayne wrote about, that curls up when you touch it--looks like a trilobyte, right?--is a SOW BUG around here. (Of course, it's not an insect). That may be a book word. No, no -- it's a rolypoly! --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 12:01:29 -0500 From: PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: Re: where did _this_ come from? The "What cost x" may simple be special to math texts. In Jamaica in the mid-1960s I encountered it in arithmetic books which I'm pretty sure were English in origin. Maybe that's why it doesn't sound archaic to me! think also of "what price freedom" etc... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 11:03:45 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: Freeway names On Mon, 14 Nov 1994, M. Lynne Murphy wrote: On Fri, 11 Nov 1994, M. Lynne Murphy wrote: [South African actors] put flaps in "utah". eh? whazzis "flaps in Utah" (actually, i should've said "a flap in utah") flap = what americans do to t's between vowels (why no one here knows what i'm talking about when i ask for a "glaess uv waddrr") Am I right in my impression that the Spanish rolled "r" is a series of flaps? Birrell ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Nov 1994 18:06:57 -0600 From: Daniel S Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: word geography On Thu, 10 Nov 1994, Robert Kelly wrote: With two of those words (The Stockade, roomeke) you could be from Ellenville NY (or anywhere on the western slopes of the southern Catskills). Extremely close -- I'm from between Accord and Kerhonkson; not quite walking distance of Ellenville, but close enough for an experienced hiker. Only doodlebug affirms the north midlands, I guess. I got that from the same area. I learned only in that rather specialized sense -- a car converted into a tractor. Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Nov 1994 to 14 Nov 1994 ************************************************ There is one message totalling 32 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "it's been a slice" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Nov 1994 13:52:00 -0600 From: Katherine Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM Subject: "it's been a slice" Forgive me if this is not the appropriate forum for my question--I'm new here. I'm trying to track down the source of the expression "It's been a slice," as a mildly ironic way of saying "Goodbye, it's been fun." My mother, who still uses both expressions, says it's short for "It's been a slice of good wholesome fun" and was current circa 1947. She's from Minnesota, but a quick check with her sisters showed they are unfamiliar with the expression. It may be that they were a bit off the right age for picking up this expression. More likely my mother learned it in Yellowstone Park, where she worked that summer and several summers thereafter. My father, who was half-raised in the park, is also familiar with the expression. The problem with Yellowstone as a source is that young people from all across North America come to work there, so it doesn't really help me know where the expression originated, whether it is indeed short for "It's been a slice of good wholesome fun," etc. I've checked several reference work and found no mention of this. If anyone has any information, let me know. Thanks. Kate kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Nov 1994 to 15 Nov 1994 ************************************************ There are 13 messages totalling 442 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. mayfly 2. On the other 86 (4) 3. "it's been a slice . . ." 4. Anyone familiar with the following expressions? 5. hope how soon ... (3) 6. WWW/Gopher/ftp 7. Blast from the Past 8. another source for 86? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 01:02:16 -0500 From: Mike Agnes by971[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU Subject: mayfly Mark Ingram maingr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu inquires: Now what do you undertand by the term mayfly? DARE records "Canadian soldier" as a northern Ohio term for mayfly. Local informants here (mostly over 45) confirm they know the term but haven't seen need to use it in recent years. Our files contain citations dating from the 1970s and 1980s. But mayflies in northern Ohio have decreased remarkably in the past decade and a half, supposedly as the result of changing water conditions along Lake Erie's shores. Such changes are said to have begun reversing in the last few years, and an increase in the mayfly population has already been noticed, so maybe the current younger generation will have to "revive" the word. From elsewhere, see the following citation: "Except to fish and fishermen and Ephemerida of the opposite sex, the Green Bay fly or Canadian soldier or American soldier is an unmitigated pest. The town of Green Bay straddles the Fox River where it empties into the waters of Green Bay at its southernmost tip. The Green Bay fly breeds along the marshy shores of the bay. He is either too light or two lazy to fly against the wind but once in a while, not necessarily every summer, conditions are just right when a hatch comes on. Or just wrong from the Green Bay Sanitation Department's point of view." -- New York Times, 28 May 1979 Mike Agnes Internet: by971[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cleveland.freenet.edu Bitnet: by971%cleveland.freenet.edu[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cunyvm fax: 216 579 1255 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 08:25:41 EST From: BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: On the other 86 From: NAME: David Bergdahl FUNC: English TEL: (614) 593-2783 BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX To: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX I haven't been a radio ham in 40 yrs, but the AARL handbook usaed to have numeral expressions (e.g. "88" = love & kisses) which were originally used in telegraphy. Perhaps 86 is one of those, but I'm only guessing. The only context I've ever seen it is on resturant menus. DAVID David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 08:52:13 EST From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: On the other 86 Last Monday night on _Northern Exposure_, Chris fired his contractor and hollered out something about his being 86'ed. P.S. Does either UT or some other Texas institution have a branch campus in or near Laredo? Please respond directly to wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu. Thanks. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 07:18:20 PST From: "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs, CO" ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM Subject: Re: On the other 86 And don't forget Agent 86 from the old Get Smart TV series. My understanding on "86" has always been that it references the standard proof on most whiskey bottles, meaning about 43% alcohol content. In a bar, when a patron has had too much to drink, he is eighty-sixed, asked to leave. -- Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 10:03:00 CST From: Tom Murray TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.BITNET Subject: "it's been a slice . . ." I don't know anything about the phrase "it's been a slice . . . ", but I can't help noticing that it bears a striking resemblance, both structurally and seman tically, to other phrases that I've used/heard/wondered about: "it's been grea t"; "it's been real"; and so forth. Could one have spawned the others? Surely all this is not one large linguistic coincidence? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 12:34:29 EST From: Rex Pyles REXPYLES[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAINE.BITNET Subject: Anyone familiar with the following expressions? Hello! I am a recent subscriber to this list. I have a few questions about expressions that are natural to me,although living in New England for many years I no longer use them. I grew up in central West Virginia. 1)'I hope how soon' as in "I hope how soon it quits raining." 2) [to be] just before [doing something] "We're just before goin' out (We're fixin' to go out)." 3) 'to take a class _to_ a teacher, as in "I have a class to [with] Professor Jones. 4) "Let's go see us a movie this evening." Thanks. Rex rexpyles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maine.maine.edu P.S. RE the 'I swan' question: I remember people of my grandmother's (1878-1961) generation using this to express surprise or perhaps "mild" disbelief. "Well, I DO know!" seemed to be used to express surprise but not disbelief. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:02:49 -0500 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: hope how soon ... What a neat question. Several years ago, when I was interviewing in Johnson County, TN, I recorded the expression twice in one day. I had never either heard it or seen it, so I was delighted with it. The first time I heard it was in the morning. I had visited a general store in one corner of the county, where the owner has invited ,me to visit and record if I wanted to. It was "check day" so it was busy. Folks were paying their monthly bills and buying groceries. There had been a bit of a dry spell, and one farmer was buying corn for his hogs and complaining about having to buy feed. At pne point, he looked skyward and said, "I hope how soon it rains!" That evening I attended a birthday dinner for the mother of the owner of the local (and only county) radio station. She (the mother) lived in a house what had been refurbished recently. The living room ceiling had been texturized and sprayed with a paint containing little sparkles of some sort--I don't know what they are called--and the little sparkles were occasionally falling on the floor. Someone pointed out to her that they were falling, and she replied, "I hope how soon they all fall down!" I have the earlier occurrence on tape, but not the latter, unfortunately. I'd love to know what other people know about the construction Johnson CO. is practically in North Carolina, very near West Virginia--and that area was the first place I interviewed in TN where illiteracy was a routine fact. Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu (English, U of TN, Knoxville 37996) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 12:48:00 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: WWW/Gopher/ftp The MSU Computing Center has given us space for ADS files accessible via WWW, gopher, and anonymous ftp. What kinds of things would you like to see there? I've got logs of ADS-L postings going back a couple of years, although not all the way back to the beginning of the list's existence. Those logs are one possible thing to make available. What else? What about syllabi, etc? And does anybody have any suggestions for interesting visual or sound effects for WWW? If you have any gifs or sound files that you think would enhance a WWW page, please send them to me. You can either e-mail them to me uuencoded or anonymous ftp them to ftp.msstate.edu and put them in the directory incoming/words-l. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:40:47 EST From: David Muschell dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: hope how soon ... Working in Oklahoma in the early '70's, I often heard, "Hope ya' good luck." David ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:20:32 CST From: Joan Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: hope how soon ... DARE has examples of both "hope you good luck" (at hope v1) and "hope how soon" (at how, conj). Glad to have these additional citings, though. Joan Hall ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 13:42:24 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Blast from the Past Although I didn't save all of the early ADS-L mail, I did stumble across the following in a file I had named ADS/misc/firstday: Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1991 08:52:36 EST From: Bill Kretzschmar WAKJENGL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: We Are Still Four To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 25 Nov 1991 06:45:52 CST from nm1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Hi Cindy, Natalie, and Bitnet-Beagle: My, Natalie, you're an early riser this Monday AM. ADS-L is off to a good start even if we DO only have three subscribers so far, and that's because any start is a good start. We'll get more folks, especially when Allan Metcalf puts a notice in NADS. In the meantime we can let people know privately that the list is up. Do either of you know, by the way, anything about the Heinle and Heinle publishers of ESL materials? Bill Kretzschmar Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1991 11:21:00 CST From: Dennis Baron baron%UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: knock knock To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA The response to the subject line is who's there? So that's what I'm asking. I've never joined a list from the beginning and I don't have a topic to introduce, other than to tell Bill Kretzschmar I think this is a good idea and to ask if we'll eventually get some sense of who is on the list. I've been on several lists but always find the discussion tangential to my own interests. Of course now that we have a list of our own all this will change, right? -- debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu ____________ 217-333-2392 |:~~~~~~~~~~:| fax: 217-333-4321 Dennis Baron |: :| Dept. of English |: db :| Univ. of Illinois |: :| 608 S. Wright St. |:==========:| Urbana IL 61801 \\ """""""" \ \\ """""""" \ ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1991 12:44:03 CST From: Natalie Maynor nm1%RA.MSSTATE.EDU[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: knock knock To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA So far there are just four of us: Dennis Baron, Cindy Bernstein, Bill Kretzschmar, Natalie Maynor. Surely others will join us soon. Any time you want to see a list of subscribers, you can send this command to the listserv (listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu or listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.bitnet): review ads-l If any of you know of people who want to be added to the list rather than doing the subscribing themselves, tell them to send me a note. (I'm not sure why anybody would find it easier to send me a note than to send the sub command to the listserv, but you never know. Some people may be scared of listservs.) --Natalie (nm1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1991 15:49:51 EST From: Bill Kretzschmar WAKJENGL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Membership and habits To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA In-Reply-To: Message of Mon, 25 Nov 1991 12:44:03 CST from nm1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Hello, Dennis. Natalie forgot to mention that her dog is also a list member! If we believe in animal rights that makes 5 of us; if not, 4 and a fraction. I have written to Allan Metcalf to ask him to announce ADS-L in NADS. Until then I wonder what we all think about announcing our existence. I imagine that word will get around (I heard from John Baugh recently), but will we want to post notice of ADS-L on WORDS-L or LINGUIST or HUMANIST or ANSAXNET? Natalie and I thought not (in our brief founding conversation at SAMLA), but there are other possible views. We have a list; let's discuss what we want on it. I would suggest, for starters, a couple of habits (derived from membership on ANSAXNET) that I hope we will encourage: 1) editing the subject line so that messages sent with the reply function are on the same topic as the function, and 2) signing messages at the end of the text instead of relying on sometimes cryptic "From:" fields in the header. Bill Kretzschmar Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1991 15:38:09 CST From: Natalie Maynor nm1%RA.MSSTATE.EDU[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: Membership and habits To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA Hello, Dennis. Natalie forgot to mention that her dog is also a list member! If we believe in animal rights that makes 5 of us; if not, 4 and a fraction. Not only is Bernard Chien Perro a list member, he's also a co-owner. Don't worry -- he's experienced -- he's co-owner of WORDS-L also. And now we are six, by the way. John Baugh has joined us. post notice of ADS-L on WORDS-L or LINGUIST or HUMANIST or ANSAXNET? Natalie and I thought not (in our brief founding conversation at SAMLA), but there are other possible views. We have a list; let's discuss what we want on it. Since subscription to this list is open to the public right now (which we can change if that becomes a problem), it would probably not be a good idea to announce the list very widely. That might attract list-hoppers with only moderate interest in or knowledge of the topic. I don't think we really want it to turn into something like WORDS-L. I say that with all due respect for WORDS-L, a list I run and a list I love for reasons not related to linguistics. (I'm already looking forward to the arrival of the WORDS-L t-shirts and to the WORDS-L clambake that is scheduled for July 5 in Providence, RI.) The traffic on WORDS-L often exceeds 100 messages a day, about 5% of which are related to the topic. Announcing ADS-L on LINGUIST might be ok. What do the rest of you think? I would vote a definite no to announcing it on something like NEWLIST-L or having it listed in any of the various lists of lists. I would suggest, for starters, a couple of habits (derived from membership on ANSAXNET) that I hope we will encourage: 1) editing the subject line so that messages sent with the reply function are on the same topic as the function, and 2) signing messages at the end of the text instead of relying on sometimes cryptic "From:" fields in the header. Bill Kretzschmar Good suggestions. --Natalie (nm1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1991 17:08:00 CDT From: BERN%AUDUCVAX.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: membership To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA Membership, I'm sure, will blossom once the word is out. The early subscribers are the ones who use e-mail at least twice daily; we have to remember that there are those who don't. I'm working to complete grant proposals to fund Language Variety in the South, which some of you know will be held in conjunction with Spring SECOL 1993. I want to send drafts to NEH and NSF before Dec. 1; any suggestions from those with experience in these matters would be appreciated. --Cindy Date: Mon, 25 Nov 1991 21:35:55 CST From: Natalie Maynor nm1%RA.MSSTATE.EDU[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Heinle and Heinle To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA Returning to Bill's question from this morning (when there were just three subscribers to the list): Do either of you know, by the way, anything about the Heinle and Heinle publishers of ESL materials? I sent the question to our ESL person and got this reply: Date: Mon, 25 Nov 91 20:52:27 CST To: nm1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Ra.MsState.Edu Subject: Re: Heinle and Heinle Yes, in fact, at the Southeastern TESOL Conference, several participants noted that Heinle and Heinle are now involved in a grammar project. It looks very interesting although all I heard was a brief description by some of those involved. It is my impression that the company is moving agressively in ESL materials. What exactly does the person want to know about the company? --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 16:40:41 EST From: David Bergdahl bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: another source for 86? Ohio University Electronic Communication Date: 16-Nov-1994 04:39pm EST To: Remote Addressee ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU ) From: David Bergdahl Dept: English BERGDAHL Tel No: (614) 593-2783 Subject: another source for 86? Received: 16-Nov-1994 04:40pm Ohio University Electronic Communication Date: 16-Nov-1994 08:17am EST To: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX From: David Bergdahl Dept: English BERGDAHL Tel No: (614) 593-2783 Subject: RE: On the other 86 I haven't been a radio ham in 40 yrs, but the AARL handbook usaed to have numeral expressions (e.g. "88" = love & kisses) which were originally used in telegraphy. Perhaps 86 is one of those, but I'm only guessing. The only context I've ever seen it is on resturant menus. DAVID David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 19:12:29 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: On the other 86 On Northern exposure--sure he didn't say deep sixed? Tim Frazer ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Nov 1994 to 16 Nov 1994 ************************************************ There are 15 messages totalling 336 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Anyone familiar with the following expressions? (4) 2. WWW/Gopher/ftp (6) 3. On the other 86 (3) 4. Allanon 5. Bare-Bones WWW/ftp ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 21:52:34 -0800 From: THOMAS CLARK tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Re: Anyone familiar with the following expressions? Re: 4) "Let's go see us a movie." West VA I don't know about the semantic constraints on the verb "see", but I've used "let's go _get_ us a beer/let's go _get_ us lunch." The difference between "see" and "get" may be significant. Let's us think on that. Cheers, tlc ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 22:16:32 -0800 From: THOMAS CLARK tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Re: WWW/Gopher/ftp Natalie asks for material for these wonderful resources that will be available even when some of us learn about gif and pif and dif and all that wonderful stuff of which I am totally ignorant and incapable of downloading now. But I just finished teaching my baby linguistics seminar. Today we had Naming of the Parts, Ch 13, Finegan: Dialects. I used tapes and records that date back to the Pleistocene. How nice it would have been to use something I could have downloaded that had been taped in a Minnesota mall yesterday, or at a rock concert in Cleveland last week. I was embarrassed when I had to tell the students that Florence Trawicky, aged 21 when she was recorded for _Americans Speaking_ is 54 years old this year! A hard thing for young people when they listen to the cheer-leading Southern Belle Sorority Sister par excellence on that record. I guess I need new material -- audio and visual -- (And yes, I use _American Tongues_ as an out of class assignment). Sigh, tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 08:21:18 EST From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: On the other 86 On Northern exposure--sure he didn't say deep sixed? Tim Frazer I thought he said the other, but then I could have been projecting from reading all this stuff about 86. I happen to have a tape of the program. If I get a chance this weekend, I'll doublecheck. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 08:00:58 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: WWW/Gopher/ftp Natalie asks for material for these wonderful resources that will be available even when some of us learn about gif and pif and dif and all that wonderful stuff of which I am totally ignorant and incapable of downloading now. Straight text will do for a start. So far, our space is totally empty. Are you out there, Allan? How about some kind of description/history of ADS to use as a starting point for the Web page? If you send it to me as ordinary ASCII e-mail, I can then add the cute little html linking codes etc. -- if I can figure out what to link to it. This kind of thing is fun. Unfortunately I keep being distracted by annoyances like work. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 09:57:21 EST From: Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: Anyone familiar with the following expressions? Rex asks bout the following expression: 4) "Let's go see us a movie this evening." This use is referred to in the literature as a personal dative. I don't have a list of references handy, but I believe Wolfram and Christain discuss it a bit in _Appalachian Speech_. Terry, -- (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 10:05:05 EST From: David Muschell dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: WWW/Gopher/ftp Natalie asks for material for these wonderful resources that will be available even when some of us learn about gif and pif and dif and all that wonderful stuff of which I am totally ignorant and incapable of downloading now. Straight text will do for a start. So far, our space is totally empty. Are you out there, Allan? How about some kind of description/history of ADS to use as a starting point for the Web page? If you send it to me as ordinary ASCII e-mail, I can then add the cute little html linking codes etc. -- if I can figure out what to link to it. This kind of thing is fun. Unfortunately I keep being distracted by annoyances like work. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) Please! To me, whatever html linking codes are, they sound like strange ogres living under this internet bridge, and this billy goat fears being devoured or caught in some Web page. For those of us who travel this super-highway in a horse and buggy, this doesn't sound fun. David ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 10:31:17 EST From: Mark Ingram MAINGR01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UKCC.UKY.EDU Subject: Re: Anyone familiar with the following expressions? On Thu, 17 Nov 1994 09:57:21 EST Terry Lynn Irons said: Rex asks bout the following expression: 4) "Let's go see us a movie this evening." This use is referred to in the literature as a personal dative. I don't have a list of references handy, but I believe Wolfram and Christain discuss it a bit in _Appalachian Speech_. Terry, Is this similar to "I'm gonna buy me a sandwich." I note the German dative "Ich kaufe mir..." Mark Ingram University of Ky Medical Library-Reference Lexington, Ky maingr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 10:12:20 EST From: Rex Pyles REXPYLES[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAINE.BITNET Subject: Re: Anyone familiar with the following expressions? Thanks for your reply. I thought a while and it seems to me that verbs like 'buy, get, see(as in a movie), even 'read' -- as in "What are you going to do over vacation?" "I'm going to read me a good book." are used. It is as if (it seems to me right now) the pronoun were a type of dative (if you think of underlying case grammar). Shakespeare wrote (was it in Hamlet?) "Slay me yonder villain!" Ciao. Rex Pyles ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 11:01:15 -0500 From: Allan Denchfield dench[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAMBRIDGE.VILLAGE.COM Subject: Allanon Natalie suggested/inquired: Straight text will do for a start. So far, our space is totally empty. Are you out there, Allan? Every time I salivate, you ring the bell. There must be at least 3 Allans I know that can fill an empty space, myself included, but for the task you propose I defer to the Allan you intended. -AOBD (another Allan) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 12:38:26 EST From: Lana Strickland LSTRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIVSCVM.BITNET Subject: Re: On the other 86 No need to doublecheck, Wayne. I can vouch for you on this one...he said "you're 86ed...your outa here....." It caught my ear, too. Lana Strickland lstrick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]univscvm.csd.scarolina.edu ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- On Northern exposure--sure he didn't say deep sixed? Tim Frazer I thought he said the other, but then I could have been projecting from reading all this stuff about 86. I happen to have a tape of the program. If I get a chance this weekend, I'll doublecheck. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 10:28:04 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: WWW/Gopher/ftp Please! To me, whatever html linking codes are, they sound like strange ogres living under this internet bridge, and this billy goat fears being devoured or caught in some Web page. For those of us who travel this super-highway in a horse and buggy, this doesn't sound fun. It is true that the ogres do strange things at times. Early this morning on my home-rigged winsock/mosaic (since my office computer is too feeble to run mosaic at all), I was merrily browsing through pictures in Italy when a box suddenly popped onto my screen saying "Alert! Unexpected Heap!" and I found myself transported back to my own little computer world of Starkville, Mississippi. At least the heap didn't devour me or trap me forever. If any of you can explain to me what creature an unexpected heap is, I'd appreciate it. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 12:23:40 -0600 From: Katherine Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM Subject: Re: WWW/Gopher/ftp Please! To me, whatever html linking codes are, they sound like strange ogres living under this internet bridge, and this billy goat fears being devoured or caught in some Web page. For those of us who travel this super-highway in a horse and buggy, this doesn't sound fun. Oh, it is fun. Hypertext (html) allows you to follow your whims and interests instantly while you're reading. With a click or two, you can pursue a string of related documents stretching all over the world. Hop on out of that horse & buggy and into Mosaic or something like it. The software is free and easy, and the experience is liberating. Kate ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 14:35:40 EST From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: On the other 86 No need to doublecheck, Wayne. I can vouch for you on this one...he said "you're 86ed...your outa here....." It caught my ear, too. Lana Strickland Thanks. I ain't got time right now for anything! Quarter ends before Thanksgiving! Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 13:34:32 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: WWW/Gopher/ftp Oh, it is fun. Hypertext (html) allows you to follow your whims and interests instantly while you're reading. With a click or two, you can pursue a string of related documents stretching all over the world. Hop on Not to mention getting to hear my dog bark: http://walt.cs.msstate.edu/~maynor/ --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Nov 1994 21:13:08 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Bare-Bones WWW/ftp Thanks to Allan, ADS now has the beginning of some WWW pages. He sent me a description that I chopped into pieces so we'd have some different pages. And then I added a page about ADS-L, linked to the list logs that I just put in ftp space. I hope some of you will explore the pages and send suggestions. Remember this is just the bare-bones beginning. Here's the URL: http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/Words-L (The MSU home page will have a link to it sometime soon.) For ftp: ftp.msstate.edu pub/archives/ADS So far, the only thing in the ftp space is list logs -- all in the subdirectory List-Logs/. Remember that Unix is case sensitive. If anybody objects to making these logs public, please speak up! --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) P.S. Our gopher link will be in place soon. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Nov 1994 to 17 Nov 1994 ************************************************ There are 34 messages totalling 804 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Pleonastic pronouns (?) (2) 2. Anyone familiar with the following expressions? (3) 3. Seeking Pictures 4. WWW 5. FTP ADS-L (copy to David Hale) (2) 6. www site 7. WWW/Gopher/ftp (2) 8. Services for Mike Miller 9. Suwanee (4) 10. new (?) s/sh variation in English before /tr/ (3) 11. New Book: Grammar in Many Voices, Marilyn Silva (2) 12. song lyrics (6) 13. 'supernatural' vs 'natural' 14. Gopher is Ready 15. Thanks 16. Recent Black English (2) 17. Call for abstracts: Computer-mediated discourse analysis ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 12:09:48 GMT From: "Warren A. Brewer" NCUT054[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWNMOE10.BITNET Subject: Pleonastic pronouns (?) Rex Pyles mentions Dative in reference to constructions like, I'm gonna read me a good book. Name that tune: I'm gonna cry me a river over you. Curious how this seems to parallel Latin phenomena. Latin grammarians use terms like dativus (in)commodi ("dative of (dis)advantage"), dativus ethicus ("ethical dative"), dativus symaptheticus. These dative uses were frequently colloquial, and "pleonastic" in the sense that the literary language found them superfluous. These datives expressed something more personal, even "warmer" according to Hofmann-Szantyr. For English there's probably even a usage hierarchy for some examples: (1) I'm gonna cry me a river over you. (bare objective pronoun) (2) I'm gonna cry myself a river over you. (-self form) (3) I am going to cry a river over you. (expurgated, ala Stan Freeberg) ---Wab. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 00:44:23 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: Anyone familiar with the following expressions? A. A. Hill quote in class a sentence he'd actually heard, with all the "objects": We've elected us Ike president. As I recall, he indicated that the speaker gave signals of awareness that he was playing with language, but not violating grammaticality. It seems to me that the question is statistical probability or something like that rather than straight-out grammar. I'm gonna fry me an egg right now I'm gonna buy me a Power Mac as a retirement present ('myself' would not have the same reading for me) I'm gonna read me a book right now So you fried you an egg and ate it immediately, did you? I bought me a good book yesterday *He bought him a good book yesterday ?You bought you a good book yesterday This construction has very limited probabilities of occurrence -- situationally constrained. One could "dismiss" them as something like figurative use of language. Or is this part of the creative element inherent in human language? DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 06:04:10 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Seeking Pictures If any of you have WWW personal home pages with your pictures on them, please let me know. At first the concept of personal home pages struck me as silly, especially the idea of having your picture flash onto computer screens, but gradually I started recognizing the usefulness. If, for example, you're about to go to a meeting somewhere, knowing what people look like can help you find somebody you want to see. I was thinking that we might have a section in the ADS pages called something like "The Faces of ADS" and include pictures. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 07:18:26 -0500 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: WWW Natalie, thank you for the important service you are performing in setting up the www server and page. I have forwarded to my student David Hale copies of your posts about it, as he is exploring options for setting up a page/server here for language & law. I'm sure he will correspond with you about how you are doing this. Thanks, Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 07:23:39 -0500 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: FTP ADS-L (copy to David Hale) Natalie, when I get to msstate.edu via ftp, I am asked for a password. What do I use? Thanks, Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 07:41:22 EST From: Beth Simon SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET Subject: www site Natalie, Yes, thanks from me, as well. beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 06:58:25 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: FTP ADS-L (copy to David Hale) Natalie, when I get to msstate.edu via ftp, I am asked for a password. What do I use? Thanks, Bethany Log on with the word 'anonymous' (no ''), and use your e-mail address as password. Be sure to include the ftp in the address ftp.msstate.edu. From a Unix system the command you'd enter would look like this: ftp ftp.msstate.edu I thank you for the thank-yous. I must confess that I consider this kind of thing fun rather than work. And that's why I'm sitting here at the computer when I should be thinking about finishing -Paradise Lost- in my lit class two minutes from now... --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 09:39:13 EST From: Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUACAD.MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: WWW/Gopher/ftp If any of you can explain to me what creature an unexpected heap is, I'd appreciate it. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) According to my colleague Robert Royar, who is a network genius, heap is the allocatable memory pool that Unix uses. The error message came from your home cite or whatever program you were going through at the remote access, and it could mean "a corrupted memory pointer." In other words, a program tried to access memory that it no longer owned. If you were kicked out of mosaic entirely, then the error was on your home computer. Robert says hello. Terry, -- (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 09:09:51 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: WWW/Gopher/ftp words, a program tried to access memory that it no longer owned. If you were kicked out of mosaic entirely, then the error was on your home computer. The problem has to have been on my home computer since I wasn't logged on to our Unix system. I connect with the campus terminal server via a slip connection and then go to mosaic, which is on my computer. Thanks for the heap of information. And my apologies to those of you who don't like straying from the list topic. I guess there's too much Words-L experience in my background... --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 09:23:44 -0600 From: Katherine Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM Subject: Re: Pleonastic pronouns (?) Name that tune: I'm gonna cry me a river over you. If we're thinking of the same song, I believe it's You can cry me a river/cry me a river/I cried a river over you. ^^^ Not that this affects your point; "I'm gonna cry me a river" certainly isn't unheard of. Kate kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 11:20:21 -0500 From: "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr." billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU Subject: Services for Mike Miller If anybody in the Chicago area is interested in attending a local service for Mike Miller, one will be held at 1PM, Saturday Nov. 19, at Luther Memorial Lutheran Church (2300 W. Wilson, Chicago). A memorial in Georgia is tentatively scheduled for Augusta College, 3PM, Nov. 27. Regards, Bill ****************************************************************************** Bill Kretzschmar Phone: 706-542-2246 Dept. of English FAX: 706-542-2181 University of Georgia Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu Athens, GA 30602-6205 Bitnet: wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 12:23:00 EDT From: "David A. Johns" DJOHNS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UFPINE.BITNET Subject: Suwanee Back to this again ... Our library just got a copy of Joseph E. Holloway's _The African Heritage of American English (Indiana U. P., 1993). _Suwanee_ is listed under both Georgia and Florida place names as possibly of African origin. On page 115-116 they suggest that it could have come from Bantu _nsub-wanyi_ 'my house'. Apparently there was a large Black Seminole settlement near the mouth of the Suwanee until 1818, when it was destroyed during the Seminole Wars. There's also a town named Suwanee in Georgia, a little northeast of Atlanta, but there's no explanation in the book of how the name got that far north. David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 09:26:56 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: new (?) s/sh variation in English before /tr/ I published this on LINGUIST-L a few months ago, and my wife, Marilyn Silva, suggested this morning that I post it here! Eureka -- of course! This is the group that would be noticing such things. So here we go. **************** Is it just me -- is it just that I haven't really been paying attention to actual American English phonetics for the past 25 years since my UCLA linguistics training, or could it actually be that there has been some weird pronunciation shift going on in the United States around certain [st] clusters during the past two or three years? I am constantly hearing the following substitutions of esh for [s] and esh+t for [st], both on tv and on the streets, in the following kinds of words, where 'S' stands for "esh"; notice that there is *usually* an 'r' nearby, usually after but sometimes before, and then a few cases where no 'r' is involved at all: adminiStration, Structure, conStruction, obStruction, deStroy Street, Strictly, , Strike, underStand, induStry, realiStic, reStaurant, chemiStry Straight (Bryant Gumble) ekStra (Pam Moore, Bay Area newscaster) reStrain (Lt. Worf, Star Trek: Next Generation) bookStore, Strong(er), Stripe, moonStruck (Jay Leno) weirder: deScribe, reSpect, anniverSary, State I also note with interest that certain other clusters do/might not alternate in the same way: ?juSt; ?linguiStics; ?intereSt; ?subStitution; ?cluSter; ?conStantly. However, it may just be that I have not yet heard these pronunciations. So this alternation seems to occur initially and medially but *perhaps* not finally, and is likely to occur as assimilation to a nearby retroflex -- except that's obviously not the only environment it occurs in. Thus far I have not been able to see/hear any obvious dialectal/regional similarities among those who have this alternant pronunciation, but I have the sense that it is Southern, even though the Boston Jay Leno does it. Holly Hunter, who is (?) from the South, does this all the time, as does Christian Slater, who is quite prolific at this (one of my students sees him as a chief promulgator of this quirk ("She's doing Christian Slater"), supposedly tied to the tongue-numbing effects of a certain intoxicant, and therefore to 'cool-ness' or whatever the current term is). If so, perhaps we should be talking here about (Drug-) Altered States of Language. Has anyone else noticed this? Listen for it if you haven't heard it yet. Does anyone have any idea how old this alternation is? Why is/should such a shift be happening (silly question)? ************************** I received back a number of responses which I summarized (and would be glad to post here if anyone wants them). Meanwhile, I hear it increasingly now that I'm so attuned to it. Prescriptivists would say it's *substandard*, and others would say it's *lower-class*. Anyone else tracking this phenomenon? -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- McCartney/Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 11:32:44 -0500 From: Donald Larmouth LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU Subject: Re: Anyone familiar with the following expressions? As a lifetime fisherman, I can attest to many usages like the following: I'm gonna hook me a [name almost any species of game fish] I'm gonna catch me a [name almost any species of game or bait fish] I'm not much of a hunter now, but the following is also common: I'm gonna shoot me a [bear, deer, elk, moose, rabbit, partridge, etc.] I have also heard a wildlife photographer use the same expression, where {shoot} meant 'photograph.' One could argue that there are some semantic properties in common in {get}, {buy}, {hook}, {catch}, and {shoot}, but I can't say, "I'm gonna obtain me a dictionary" or "I'm gonna acquire me a footstool" so there must be something else going on. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 09:42:24 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: New Book: Grammar in Many Voices, Marilyn Silva Here's a tip from a totally disinterested party (ha! say all of you who just read my last message!). NTC (National Textbook Company) has just published a new undergraduate grammar book, Grammar in Many Voices, which is intended most specifically for English Departments and other non-specialist grammar courses (though linguists will certainly enjoy it as well, if grammar is their thing). It's a surface grammar approach, a self-contained 10 week course in critical thinking, which teaches people to DO grammar rather than just teaching them about grammar. Copious example sentences are drawn from a veritable rainbow of ethnic authors all writing in Standard English (an absolute minimum of Oh-see-if-you-can-say made-up sentences). It's tough, no doubt, but excellent (I've taught the course myself from prepublication drafts), and many students who say that they never 'got' what grammar was about finally 'get' it. Authors sentences are drawn from include Anne Rice (timing is everything!), James Baldwin, Jacob Bronowski, Bill Cosby, Louise Erdrich, Robert Fulghum, Linda Hogan, Martin Luther King Jr, Toni Morrison, Iris Murdoch, Richard Nixon, Edgar Allan Poe, Richard Rodriguez, Oliver Sacks, Dr. Seuss, Bram Stoker, Amy Tan, J.R.R. Tolkien, Alice Walker -- well, you get the picture. I'll be glad to pass on any questions or comments you might have. -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- McCartney/Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 13:00:07 -0500 From: Ron Rabin RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU Subject: song lyrics I'm not sure what kind of natural language evidence a song lyric is, or even if it is natural language evidence. But I've heard this Judy Collins song titled Someday Soon for some time and have always been curious about two items in a particular verse. I'd be delighted to hear your comments and observations and whatever relevant citations you can provide. The lyric: (the song's narrator sings of her boyfriend whom she would follow anywhere but her parent "cannot stand him 'cause he hides the rodeo") When he comes to call My pa ain't got a good word to say. Guess it's cause he's just a wild In the younger day. 1) The was contraction in "he's just as wild." In that we don't (I don't) say *He's here yesterday, is there a dialect and rule for this locution? 2) The definite article instead of possessive "the younger day." While the normal (for me) possessive here is redundant information, given the context, this usage sounds to my ears more like French for Yiddish/German than English. Could this be archaic syntax preserved somewhere? BTW, the supposed locus of the singer is not identified in the song. Her boyfriend is "driving in from California" so that she may follow him but we're never told where he's driving to. Perhaps someone knows a variant of the song that locates the narrator geographically and so provides a clue to word origins and families here. Ron Rabin Dept of Communication Buffalo State College ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 09:55:12 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: 'supernatural' vs 'natural' okay, okay -- one more and I'll stop. The last few conferences I've gone to, I've heard non-Indians talking about Indians (ie, American Indians) praying to spirits and in the same breath use the word 'supernatural'. Sounds okay? I've piped up at each of these talks and said that as far as I know, this is what Indians call 'NATURAL' -- and that we've moved so far away from the concept of natural that we've had to coin a new word, 'supernatural' to use in such circumstances. Weird, huh? Does anyone know when the languages of Euroculture began using 'supernatural' to refer to nature spirits? or Spirit? Always? Or was there a point at which it changed? -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- McCartney/Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 12:48:38 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: Suwanee In Message Fri, 18 Nov 1994 12:23:00 EDT, "David A. Johns" DJOHNS%UFPINE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.uic.edu writes: Our library just got a copy of Joseph E. Holloway's _The African Heritage of American English (Indiana U. P., 1993). _Suwanee_ is listed under both Georgia and Florida place names as possibly of African origin. On page 115-116 they suggest that it could have come from Bantu _nsub-wanyi_ 'my house'. Use this infamous book at your own risk! Should you read my review of it in the AMERICAN ANTHROPOLOGIST 96.477-478 (1993), please remember that I originally characterized the authors as zealots who have ignored what has been learned on African contributions to African-American language varieties since Lorenzo Turner's (1949) AFRICANISMS IN THE GULLAH DIALECT. The Editor changed the wording to something less strong. I also say that "Turner himself would have been embarrassed by the uncritical use of his methodology" in the piece dedicated to him. Some time later, Michael Montgomery told me, justifiably, that I had been too kind to Holloway and Vass. Victor Manfredi actually found it worthwhile tearing the work apart in his very elaborate review to appear in... Oops! I have misplaced the manuscript, fortunately after reading it. Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 13:42:04 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: song lyrics In connection with "Someday Soon": I'd always heard Judy Collins as singing "'cause he rides the rodeo", which of course makes more sense than "...hides..." Are you sure she doesn't have an r- there? If not, maybe it's a slip of the tongue, recorded though it may be. Similarly, I always assumed it was 'he was just as wild in the/his younger days' (you must be right about the article, although I have no idea why it would appear there given both semantic and metrical considerations). If it's really more like 'he's just as wild' (or just a wild? I never heard it that way) I'm sure that one would be attributed to metrical constraints. Might there not be a mini-schwa in there, in fact? A closer listen would be needed to confirm it, but my guess is that she sings something like "heIs just as wild", where I is a schwa--forced reduction but not a full contraction. As for the locus, I guess all we know is that it's in rodeo country, it's not California, and it's not southern Colorado (identfied in the second line of the song as the provenance of the young man in question). But as indicated I'm not sure that any of the above are true dialect traits, except POSSIBLY the 'in the younger days', which I think is more likely an idiosyncrasy on Judy Collins's part, or that of the song-writer (can't remember who that was). As far as recorded misparses go, though, I've always liked the Joan Baez recording of The Band's The Day They Drove Old Dixie Down, where she sings something like "Till so much cavalry came up the tracks again" (not sure about the VP), when it's clear from The Band's own recording that the line was "Till Stonewall's cavalry came up..." I guess Joan Baez didn't have an entry in her mental lexicon for Stonewall Jackson. And my favorite meter-induced agrammatism is one from an old Mamas & Papas song-- I saw him again last night, You know that I shouldn't just string him along, it's just not right. If I couldn't, I wouldn't. which MUST (but CAN'T, in my idiolect or anyone else's I've checked) mean "If I could [not string him along]". This is the only place in the entire corpus of English I know of in which 'couldn't' means could-not (possible not) rather than not-could (not possible). A moment of silence now for Cass Elliot... Larry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 14:04:19 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: song lyrics P.S. On second thought it might have been "The NIGHT they drove old Dixie down". And it might also have been Stoneman's cavalry. It's been a while. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 15:52:00 PST From: Ellen Fennell EMF[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMAIL.WINROCK.ORG Subject: Re: Suwanee I wonder about the name "Sewanee" aka University of the South located on the Cumberland Plateau in east Tennessee. Same origin? Ellen Fennell ---------- From: ADS-L To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L Subject: Suwanee Date: Friday, November 18, 1994 12:23PM Back to this again ... Our library just got a copy of Joseph E. Holloway's _The African Heritage of American English (Indiana U. P., 1993). _Suwanee_ is listed under both Georgia and Florida place names as possibly of African origin. On page 115-116 they suggest that it could have come from Bantu _nsub-wanyi_ 'my house'. Apparently there was a large Black Seminole settlement near the mouth of the Suwanee until 1818, when it was destroyed during the Seminole Wars. There's also a town named Suwanee in Georgia, a little northeast of Atlanta, but there's no explanation in the book of how the name got that far north. David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 17:18:40 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Suwanee How about Sewanee University? That's even farther north, up in Tennesee (beautiful spot. Do the ever hire any linguists?). is that name from the same source? Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 17:22:46 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: new (?) s/sh variation in English before /tr/ Somehow what Moonhawk reports doeshn't shound shurpishing. Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 17:30:10 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: song lyrics On Fri, 18 Nov 1994, Larry Horn wrote: P.S. On second thought it might have been "The NIGHT they drove old Dixie down". And it might also have been Stoneman's cavalry. It's been a while. Yeah, it's NIGHT they drove. . . . . I thought, on the BAnd recording (which I still have, though I no longerhave anything that plays LPS) "till Stillman's cavalry came and tore up thetracks again." But I've never head of a Stillman so mabye it's stonewall after all. Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 17:31:31 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Gopher is Ready Gopher is now ready, although *very* skimpy. It's basically the same as our ftp holdings. Please send suggestions for additions. The gopher address is gopher.msstate.edu. Choose #3 from the first menu ("Resources maintained at...") and #1 from the next menu. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 17:35:02 -0600 From: Katherine Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM Subject: Re: song lyrics When he comes to call My pa ain't got a good word to say. Guess it's cause he's just a wild In the younger day. I am more familiar with Linda Rondstat's version of this song, in which the last line is sung as "in his younger days." As for the third line, what I hear (at least with Ms. Rondstat) is "I guess it's 'cause he-uz just as wild," "he-uz" being a western contraction for "he was." The "u" should probably be a schwa, actually. Kate Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 18:37:46 EST From: Rex Pyles REXPYLES[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAINE.BITNET Subject: Thanks Hi. I want to thank everyone who responded to my questions concerning expressions I remember from growing up in central West Virginia. I left there when I was a teenager, and have lived in northern New England for about 30 years. So, I occasionally find myself (shudder) 'packing' my 'caa' in the 'dowah yad', going 'overtown' to the store, and commenting about those 'summah people from away'. Anyway, happy Thanksgiving to all. Rex P.S. My grandmother regularly did her housework 'of a morning'. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 17:31:22 -0600 From: Katherine Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM Subject: Re: new (?) s/sh variation in English before /tr/ This is interesting. I've always thought this was just a slight speech impediment. It's one I struggle with myself occasionally, despite a good bit of diction training. And Christian Slater's got _nothing_ on Daffy Duck. Kate Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 18:05:23 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Recent Black English The last few years, my students (including some African-Americans) complain that the info on BE in their textbooks doesn't square with their experience. For example, one young African-American told me that when she used uninflected BE it did NOT refer to a habitual action. Anyone else have this happen? A of my readings are based on Labov's work 25 years ago, so I have to give her oberservations some credence. Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 18:10:07 -0500 From: Donald Larmouth LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU Subject: Re: Anyone familiar with the following expressions? How about the following additions: He's gonna bag him a turkey. He's gonna fix him a lunch. I'm gonna pour me a drink. I'm gonna kill me a deer. We're gonna cut us a Christmas tree. I'm gonna cook me a ham. I'm gonna make me a sundae. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 19:12:54 CST From: Susan Herring susan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTAFLL.UTA.EDU Subject: Call for abstracts: Computer-mediated discourse analysis Hi folks, Anyone out there working on anything that might fit in with this theme? *[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]* CALL FOR ABSTRACTS GURT Presession on "Computer-Mediated Discourse Analysis" March 8, 1995 Georgetown University One of the most exciting recent developments in discourse analysis is the availability of data from computer-mediated interactions, such as those that take place on the Internet, Usenet, and in synchronous modes such as Chat and MUDs/MOOs. Computer-mediated interaction raises intriguing issues of how technological limitations shape language use, as well as providing large amounts of authentic, pre-transcribed data which can be used to shed light on existing problems of linguistic analysis. This presession will be one of the first public fora to report on the results of linguistic analyses of computer-mediated discourse. While any application of linguistic methodology to computer-mediated data is welcome, analyses are especially encouraged that are pragmatic, sociolinguistic/interactional, textual, or focus on issues of methodology or genre. Interested persons should submit a 350-500 word abstract describing the problem, the data, the methodology used, and the (tentative) results of the research by *December 10, 1994* to: Susan Herring Organizer, GURT Presession on Computer-Mediated Discourse Analysis Program in Linguistics University of Texas Arlington, TX 76019 USA fax: 817 273-2731 e-mail: susan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utafll.uta.edu Abstracts should preferentially be sent by e-mail, but snail-mailed or faxed abstracts are also acceptable. Submission prior to the deadline is strongly encouraged. Notice of acceptance of abstracts for presentation will be given by December 31, 1994. The presession will take place on Wednesday, March 8, 1995. It will be followed by the annual Georgetown Round Table on Languages and Linguistics (topic: "Linguistics and the Education of Second Language Teachers") from the evening of March 8 - March 11, and the International Linguistics Association 40th Annual Conference (topic: "Discourse and Text Analysis") from March 10-12. Both conferences will take place on the Georgetown University campus. Registration fees: GURT conference fees for presession speakers will be waived for the entire conference. Publication: Papers presented at the presession will be considered for publication in a special issue of the _Electronic Journal of Communication/Revue Electronique de Communication_ on Computer-Mediated Discourse Analysis, guest edited by Susan Herring. Please direct any questions or comments to susan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utafll.uta.edu. *[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]* ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 21:01:13 -0500 From: Ron Rabin RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU Subject: Re: song lyrics Re: Judy Collins' Someday Soon, again - Definitely "rides" not "hides." My typo. But definitely "He's just as wild in the younger days." Even given a very reduced vowel in there that was once an I (He is just...), it doesn't follow: The analog would be something like "He is here yesterday" and *not* like "He is the one I saw yesterday" where his being continues and thus the "enduring" present tense is used. I've listen to Judy sing these lyrics in great detail and the song repeats these lines. My transcription is accurate enough. Maybe metrical considerations can account for a contraction of "was" (he's or he was) but, as noted, there's nothing to be gained metrically from "the younger days." Has anyone ever *heard* anyone say such things? Ron Rabin Dept of Communication Buffalo State College ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 21:40:00 -0500 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: Re: New Book: Grammar in Many Voices, Marilyn Silva How about giving us some (objective, of course) ordering info? Thanks, Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 20:55:36 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: Recent Black English I've gotten similar reactions to what Tim Frazer reported regarding VBE. One shouldn't be surprised that a "lect" changes in a generation, particularly in salient usages that have the potential for social stigmatization. Is the VBE lect of today's college-age African Americans supposed to be the same as that of their parents' generation? The item that was called to my attention was habitual BE, as in Tim's case. DMLance ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Nov 1994 to 18 Nov 1994 ************************************************ There are 11 messages totalling 201 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Recent Black English (4) 2. new (?) s/sh variation in English before /tr/ 3. metadata (3) 4. song lyrics 5. "ride the rodeo" 6. shtr- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Nov 1994 20:58:21 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: Re: Recent Black English Marilyn Silva reports that when she was teaching high school in NYC 25 years ago, students THEN were reporting, "we don't talk like that -- that's the way country folk talk!" Of course, there's always a mix in big cities between country and city folk. And ... some people don't know objectively what they do. But ... that's the report. -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- McCartney/Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 00:19:03 -0800 From: Audrey Wright awright[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEACCD.SCCD.CTC.EDU Subject: Re: Recent Black English This is entirely possible. Mainly because most information on AAL/BE refers to the'traditional' or most pure form of its usage. Over time, a lot of African Americans are standardinzing the language. Then too, there are some indications that the language is taking a different direction by some users. The language/dialect is not a monolith. There are many variations, both regional and social. Audrey Wright On Fri, 18 Nov 1994, Timothy C. Frazer wrote: The last few years, my students (including some African-Americans) complain that the info on BE in their textbooks doesn't square with their experience. For example, one young African-American told me that when she used uninflected BE it did NOT refer to a habitual action. Anyone else have this happen? A of my readings are based on Labov's work 25 years ago, so I have to give her oberservations some credence. Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 08:34:24 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Recent Black English I've gotten similar reactions to what Tim Frazer reported regarding VBE. One shouldn't be surprised that a "lect" changes in a generation, particularly in salient usages that have the potential for social stigmatization. Is the VBE lect of today's college-age African Americans supposed to be the same as that of their parents' generation? The item that was called to my attention was habitual BE, as in Tim's case. It's quite unlikely that the speech of college-age African Americans is exactly like that of their parents' generation, but I find the particular example (use of invariant "be") surprising. Although I haven't collected any data recently, these college-age speakers represent the same group that Guy Bailey and I looked at extensively when they were approximately junior-high age. At that time we found that their use of invariant "be" was more frequent and more predictable (habitual action) than that of their grandparents. We didn't collect as much data from their parents' generation. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 08:41:13 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Recent Black English Marilyn Silva reports that when she was teaching high school in NYC 25 years ago, students THEN were reporting, "we don't talk like that -- that's the way country folk talk!" Of course, there's always a mix in big cities between country and city folk. And ... some people don't know objectively what they do. But ... that's the report. Talk like what? Use of invariant "be"? I find that especially ironic (and perhaps strong evidence of what you said about people not knowing objectively what they do). Guy and I found a very clear rural-urban split in the use of invariant "be" by African American children (12-13 years old -- we tried to avoid some of the problems of age-grading by not using younger children): the urban children were way ahead of the rural children in their systematic use of invariant "be." Somewhere (I can't remember the reference now) we included in an article samples of conversations between two African American teenagers in Texas, one rural and the other urban. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 12:46:59 -0800 From: THOMAS CLARK tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Re: new (?) s/sh variation in English before /tr/ While reading the posting, something was tickling the back of my mind. When mention was made of "doing Christian Slater," it suddenly came to me. I was watching Stalag 17 for the umpteenth time the other night. One character does an imitation of James Cagney. His imitation, like all imitators of Cagney, consisted of hunching his shoulders and snarling out the side of his mouth, "Now watch it S(h)ee, eSHpeSHally you guys in the back, SHee. And liSHen up now, SHee." So the SH for /s/ seems to have been around for awhile. Cheers, tlc ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 18:19:25 -0500 From: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: metadata *metadata* is a computer term meaning 'data about data' - so I was informed by Trish Porth of Mitre (?), who phoned to ask for information on the origin and early (pre-1980?) history of the word. She said it was supposedly first used by mapmakers. Ever heard of it? Does anyone have an early citation? Thanks - Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 15:23:54 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: metadata On Sat, 19 Nov 1994 AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM wrote: *metadata* is a computer term meaning 'data about data' - so I was informed by Trish Porth of Mitre (?), who phoned to ask for information on the origin and early (pre-1980?) history of the word. She said it was supposedly first used by mapmakers. Ever heard of it? Does anyone have an early citation? Thanks - Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com As a registered pedant, I wish people would learn a) that "meta" in Greek means 'beside' not "over" or "about." And that neologisms like this are donchaknow, neo... Birrell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 19:01:24 EST From: Beth Simon SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET Subject: Re: song lyrics It's "he's just as wild as in in his younger days" beth simon indiana university/purdue university-fort wayne ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 19:02:21 EST From: Beth Simon SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET Subject: "ride the rodeo" Sorry, too many "in's" "he's just as wild as in his younger days" beth ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 19:05:45 EST From: Beth Simon SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET Subject: shtr- I've miss some of this, so forgive me if you've said this: "shtr -" for "str-" is quite common Manhattan/Queens One hears "shtreet" all the time. beth ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Nov 1994 17:10:15 PST From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: metadata Metadata is a term used in database systems design. Metadata is, for example, the data describing your database -- the data dictionary. It is, as Allen Metcalf pointed out, data about data. If anyone wants a detailed explanation of metadata and what in means in real life -- you ALL probably use it (indirectly) without realizing so -- feel free to contact me personally and I'll give a short tutorial. (I give short tutorials to people on CARR-L (Computer Aided Reporting and Research) all the time.) Hope this helps some. I missed the original question, so excuse me if this is a redunudant answer. Chuck Coker Computer-Guy-That-Lurks-On-ADS CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Nov 1994 to 19 Nov 1994 ************************************************ There are 14 messages totalling 509 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "ride the rodeo" (2) 2. Pigtails (2) 3. Recent Black English (5) 4. Anyone familiar with the following expressions? 5. afterthought on braids (2) 6. trizzle 7. stirring the fire ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 00:29:39 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: "ride the rodeo" In response to two points raised by Beth Simon: 1) Whether or not Judy Collins sings (as Beth claims) When he comes to call, my pa ain't got a good word to say, Guess it's cause he's just as wild as in his younger days, I wouldn't have so processed it because it's totally uninterpretable in this context, given that the he/his of the second line would have to be non-coreferential, which they really can't be ("You're just as wild as in my younger days"?) 2) I too have heard shtr- quite a bit in the New York area, and concurred with someone on some e-list (I thought it was ours, a few months ago, but maybe it was Linguist) that it's especially associated with Italian-Americans born in the 1950's (my citation was Mike Francesa on WFAN sports talk radio, along with others I now forget). Larry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 19:43:46 GMT From: "Warren A. Brewer" NCUT054[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWNMOE10.BITNET Subject: Pigtails Dispute here over female hairstyles. Pattern A Pattern B (1) Pigtail(s) +braided -braided (2) Braid(s) +braided +braided (3) Ponytail -braided -braided The dispute is over the meaning of pigtails . For me, pigtails = braids , & therefore are both [+braided]; for a colleague (Maine) & his wife (NY), braids are indeed [+braided], but (incroyablement) pigtails is the dual of ponytail , for which I have a lexical gap. Standard dictionaries seem to indicate pattern A. How widespread is pattern B? ---Wab. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 08:02:16 -0400 From: "Becky Howard, Department of Interdisciplinary Writing, Colgate University" BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU Subject: Re: Recent Black English Tim, when I use Geneva Smitherman's *Talkin and Testifyin*, my students like the book but find its reports of usage quaint--not to mention the cover picture..... Becky Howard ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 08:13:34 -0800 From: "Joseph B. Monda" monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU Subject: Re: Anyone familiar with the following expressions? On Fri, 18 Nov 1994, Donald Larmouth wrote: How about the following additions: He's gonna bag him a turkey. He's gonna fix him a lunch. I'm gonna pour me a drink. I'm gonna kill me a deer. We're gonna cut us a Christmas tree. I'm gonna cook me a ham. I'm gonna make me a sundae. And "we got ourselves a convoy"? From _Smokey and the Bandit_, I think. Joe Monda ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: Pigtails From: "Warren A. Brewer" NCUT054%TWNMOE10.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu The dispute is over the meaning of pigtails . For me, pigtails = braids , & therefore are both [+braided]; for a colleague (Maine) & his wife (NY), braids are indeed [+braided], but (incroyablement) pigtails is the dual of ponytail , for which I have a lexical gap. i don't think i fit into either of your patterns. braids are things that are braided, ponytails and pigtails are tied-off hunks of hair-- regardless of whether they are braided or not: you can have a regular ponytail or a braided one. the only difference for me between pony tails and pigtails is their positioning. a ponytail goes on the back of your head, making your head look like a horse's posterior (that may be a bit of aesthetic judgment as well as lexicographic description), whereas pigtails are normally (but not exclusively) on the sides of the head, esp. when bound above the ears. lynne ____________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 South Africa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: afterthought on braids when people say "braids" they usually mean braided pigtails (a la pippi longstocking?) because that's the prototypical way (in u.s. culture, at least) of wearing braids (plural). but i could say "bo derek had her hair in braids" or "...wore braids" meaning cornrows as well, if the context allowed it. i do think, though that "braids" have to hang. so, if you had someone with a cornrowed style that stayed close to the scalp, i'd say that their hair is "braided" not that it's in "braids". (however, "braided" can be used for hanging braids as well.) i would not be at all surprised to learn that in addition to (or instead of) regional differences, one would find gender differences in the interpretation of these words. i know i've had arguments w/ men from the same region about their use of hairstyle names that i didn't believe were accurate descriptions. (things like: him: if you're hot, put your hair in pigtails. me: pigtails are for kids. him: you always wear a pigtail. me: that's a ponytail, there's a difference.) lynne ____________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 South Africa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 10:36:05 -0800 From: Audrey Wright awright[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEACCD.SCCD.CTC.EDU Subject: Re: afterthought on braids I wonder if the reference could also be "culturally" determined, or even "politically" determined. For instance, my mother was a cosmetologists. In her usage, 'braids' and 'pigtails' would never overlap in meaning. Pigtails stick out from a single point, and do not have the connotation of even attempting to be 'hair sculpture' while braids (which can include hairwrapping) usually with the intent of providing a creative style, i.e. hairsculpturing. Politically speaking perhaps, I know enough women, who feel that what happened to Bo Derek and her 'braids' was such an insult to African/African American women that they would never, never refer to her style and 'braids'. Personally, I have been wearing 'braids' for more than 20 years. I know of no one who would call them pigtails. Audrey ?1;0c On Sun, 20 Nov 1994, M. Lynne Murphy wrote: when people say "braids" they usually mean braided pigtails (a la pippi longstocking?) because that's the prototypical way (in u.s. culture, at least) of wearing braids (plural). but i could say "bo derek had her hair in braids" or "...wore braids" meaning cornrows as well, if the context allowed it. i do think, though that "braids" have to hang. so, if you had someone with a cornrowed style that stayed close to the scalp, i'd say that their hair is "braided" not that it's in "braids". (however, "braided" can be used for hanging braids as well.) i would not be at all surprised to learn that in addition to (or instead of) regional differences, one would find gender differences in the interpretation of these words. i know i've had arguments w/ men from the same region about their use of hairstyle names that i didn't believe were accurate descriptions. (things like: him: if you're hot, put your hair in pigtails. me: pigtails are for kids. him: you always wear a pigtail. me: that's a ponytail, there's a difference.) lynne ____________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 South Africa ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 12:41:18 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: Recent Black English In Message Fri, 18 Nov 1994 18:05:23 -0600, "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uxa.ecn.bgu.edu writes: For example, one young African-American told me that when she used uninflected BE it did NOT refer to a habitual action. Anyone else have this happen? Your student is partly right. In AAVE, HE DON' TELL LIES and HE DON' BE TELLIN LIES do not mean the same thing. The first is the basic habitual; the second denotes repeated processes. Note also the absence of contradiction in the following statement: I STAY WITH MY SISTER BUT I BE WITH MY MOM MOST OF THE TIME. In the second part, the speaker refers to repeated states. The following is also informative: NATE BE BABBLIN EVERY TIME I VISIT, EXCEPT FOR THAT PARTICULAR AFTERNOON, HE WAS SO SILENT... I have come to the conclusion that habituative BE constructions denote something like REPEATED STATE OR PROCESS, rather than a simple habit. There might be more to it; hopefully those who have more experience with AAVE and can articulate the meaning well for linguists will do it for the rest of us. Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 12:41:21 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: Recent Black English In Message Fri, 18 Nov 1994 20:55:36 CST, "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.uic.edu writes: I've gotten similar reactions to what Tim Frazer reported regarding VBE. One shouldn't be surprised that a "lect" changes in a generation, particularly in salient usages that have the potential for social stigmatization. Is the VBE lect of today's college-age African Americans supposed to be the same as that of their parents' generation? The item that was called to my attention was habitual BE, as in Tim's case. Change is possible, but it is also possible that the construction was just not well understood by influential outsiders who describe the variety. I think that Arthur Spears' notion of "camouflaged" construction applies to much more than "come + V-in" constructions. Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 12:41:23 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: Recent Black English In Message Sat, 19 Nov 1994 00:19:03 -0800, Audrey Wright awright[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]seaccd.sccd.ctc.edu writes: This is entirely possible. Mainly because most information on AAL/BE refers to the'traditional' or most pure form of its usage. Over time, a lot of African Americans are standardinzing the language. Then too, there are some indications that the language is taking a different direction by some users. The language/dialect is not a monolith. There are many variations, both regional and social. I buy the position that AAVE is not monolithic. I think that it has never been monolithic. A close examination of the texts published by Walter Brasch (1981, BLACK ENGLISH IN THE MASS MEDIA) suggests this conclusion. I would then be more cautious in suggesting change without supportive diachronic evidence. What would be the motivation for speakers to standardize their vernacular? This is not to deny that people code-switch to a standard variety in some contexts, by all means not all of them nor equally successfully. Nor do I want to deny change (not any faster than in other varieties of English), but change must be proved and not be used as a solution of convenience. You did not say this of course, but this explanation has been floating around. Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 12:56:34 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Recent Black English she used uninflected BE it did NOT refer to a habitual action. Anyone else have this happen? Your student is partly right. In AAVE, HE DON' TELL LIES and HE DON' BE TELLIN LIES do not mean the same thing. The first is the basic habitual; the second denotes repeated processes. Note also the absence of I tend to use the word "habitual," perhaps erroneously, to mean "repeated processes." Although "habit" is implied in "he don' tell lies" (or "he tell lies"), I think of that as more like a continuous state -- more like "he's not a liar" or "he's a liar" -- sort of a continuous habit, if I'm not stretching things too much with that description. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 18:10:10 EST From: Beth Simon SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET Subject: Re: "ride the rodeo" I only gave the one line, "Gues it's cause he's just as wild in his younger days," which I think, or rather, thought, when I used to sing along with it, meant "he's" = my pa was "just as wild in his younger days" = j. a. w. in his (my pa's own) younger days My pa doesn't say anything, and I guess it's because he was just as wild in his own younger days. Made sense to me at the time. beth ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 19:14:19 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: trizzle Anybody know this word "trizzle"? No clues. -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- McCartney/Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 19:54:27 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: stirring the fire Given the recent debate about who can say what to whom, and in the spirit of NOT letting sleeping dogs lie, here is a post that appeared in religious humor (the list). In this case, the ethnicity of honor is poor whites... Reposted with the author's permission. Birrell ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 16 Nov 1994 02:27:55 -0600 From: John R. Snyder jsnyder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com To: Multiple recipients of list rehu-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bgu.edu Subject: White Trash redux "Thank you!" to Gregory, Jenny, and "PeggySue" for your thoughtful and temperate responses to my initial posting. I'd like to summarize what I've heard, and clarify my position now that there's more material to work with. Here are the substantive arguments I've heard in favor of "redneck" and "white trash" humor on this list. Some of the arguments were elliptical as stated, so I've had to fill in the blanks as I understood them. I apologize in advance if I'm putting words in anyone's mouth or caricaturing their position. (1) All humor is potentially offensive to someone, therefore it is unreasonable to take as a test for acceptibility that a particular joke be unoffensive to everyone ... in this case to John Snyder. I completely agree. The farthest thing from my mind is to advocate reconstructing social discourse along the lines of the Lawrence Welk show. Like most sons of Southern mothers, I am a recovering Nice Boy and am grateful for whatever therapeutic meanness I can get from this list. I never objected to the "White Trash" humor on the grounds that it might offend someone or that it wasn't "nice." (2) We grew up in RN families, therefore when we poke fun at that culture, we do so from within the culture. It's all right for people to poke fun at themselves and their own culture. I agree that being able to poke fun at oneself and one's culture is not only OK but a sign of mental health. But I still have a hard time thinking of middle class intellectuals as being able to speak from within "redneck" culture, regardless of their origins. Intimately understand it? Empathize with the plight of those still in it? Stand in solidarity with it? Sure, sure, and sure. But "speak from within it?" I don't think so, and I think most "rednecks" would agree with me. Since there are so many intellectuals not of "redneck" origins who repeat the same jokes and use the same kind of humor to dismiss or ridicule "redneck" culture, for us on this list to repeat this humor seems to me to be *at best* a highly ambiguous activity fraught with opportunities for misinterpretation. (3) Humor (including humor at one's own expense) is often an important coping mechanism for the oppressed, including us in our capacity as "ex-rednecks." Our use of "redneck" humor is actually highly ironic, a parody of stereotypes held by the dominant culture, not a parody of "rednecks" themselves. As intellectuals of "redneck" origins, we are living proof to the dominant culture that "redneck" culture isn't all bad and that the stereotypes of it are inaccurate. This seems to me the most forceful argument in favor of RN/WT humor on this list. I certainly agree that this is, prima facie, an ethical use of such humor. In this particular case I would have been more comfortable if the original White Trash postings had followed some sort of virulent racist attack on "rednecks." That would have made the ironic, stereotype-bashing intent clear. As it is I'm left wondering whose stereotypes they were meant to bash. Pragmatically speaking, I also doubt that anyone here can function very effectively in intellectual circles as "living proof" of the redeeming qualities of RN culture. I think we're too far from RN culture to be seen as credible representatives. Instead, the dominant culture would tend to look at us and see remarkable exceptions to the stereotypical rule -- instead of changing the rule. This sort of thing is well documented in the case of black intellectuals. Why would it be any different for "redneck intellectuals?" If this is true, our use of RN humor would most frequently be interpreted as a sanctioning of the dominant culture's stereotype, not as a challenge of it. (4) Lampooning "rednecks" is no different than lampooning religious traditions, which is what this list is all about. So it's OK. (Or at least it's inconsistent to object to the lampooning of only one group.) I need to say what I think it means to tell a joke. Telling a joke (like promising, lying, taking an oath) is a speech act; i.e., an act that has as a necessary component the utterance of a certain "form of words." As a *speech* act it is open to interpretation and takes its meaning from its context: the identity of the speaker, whom it was spoken to, the time, place, cultural/linguistic matrix, etc. As a speech *act* it has consequences, can operate in a causal chain that ends in some change to the world, etc. This means that different tellings of any particular joke (as a "form of words") can have radically different meanings and consequences. Philosophical jargon aside, I think most of the time we have a strong intuitive sense of this. For example I think we recognize that it's OK to tell each other jokes about suicides suffering the torments of hell and that it might not be OK to tell those same jokes to children whose parents had just killed themselves. IMHO, the difference between the standard REHU-L fare and jokes about "white trash" (or certain other marginalized groups) is that we are not currently living in a cultural context of religious persecution -- at least not persecution of the Christian religious groups that tend to get the most flak here. I believe we *are* living in a culture that still marginalizes "rednecks," and that part of that marginalization is achieved through the calculated, malicious use of humor to dehumanize them. That changes the meaning and possible consequences of telling the jokes, regardless of the intentions of the teller. (5) We didn't intend any harm, therefore none was done. I tried to make it explicit in my original post that I wasn't questioning anyone's good intent. The crux of my objection to the White Trash thread is that regardless of one's intent or sympathies, the cultural situation that prevails almost guarantees that intellectuals' telling jokes to each other about "rednecks" will have unintended negative consequences; namely, to reinforce entrenched stereotypes and to give the appearance of a sanctioning of the marginalization of poor whites. Y'all be good now, John Bob Snyder Austin, TX jsnyder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com PS If you've read this far, you definitely deserve a joke. About the best I can come up with is an old Sufi teaching story from Jelaluddin Rumi's _Mathnawi_ as told by Coleman Barks. You could think of it as a story about disputes between denominations as to apostolic succession and other silly notions. Or you could think of the ram as the local Episcopal church (my church), the ox as the local Catholic church, and the camel as the "redneck" Victory In Jesus Full Gospel Bible Tabernacle across town that's lured away half the members of the other two. A ram, an ox, and a camel were walking down the road when they saw a nice tuft of grass up ahead. The ram realized that there wasn't enough to go around, so he said, "Friends, let's do as Mohammed commands and give the better portion to the eldest among us. It turns out that I'm so old I can't even remember my exact age. I do remember once being pastured with the same ram that Abraham sacrificed in place of Isaac." The ox said, "That's nothing! You remember how Adam had to till the ground after he was driven out of Eden? Well, I was the ox that pulled his plow!" The camel didn't say anything. He just reached his long neck over, bit off the tuft of grass, and held it high above the others' heads as he ate it. Then he said, "Dear ones, I don't know anything about history, but I do know that I'm taller than you, and that has obvious spiritual advantages!" PPS I'm off the 'Net for a few days. Anyone masochistic enough to want to continue this discussion with me will have to wait. --------End of Unsent Message ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Nov 1994 to 20 Nov 1994 ************************************************ There are 26 messages totalling 659 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. s/sh, ethical dative, and songs (2) 2. Pigtails (4) 3. I don't know about schwa, but here's where to get the lyrics 4. "All-purpose tag ain' so? (2) 5. song lyrics (8) 6. Recent Black English (4) 7. Spring SECOL, 1995 8. _Grammar in many voices_ followup 9. ADS at ILA - call for papers 10. address please 11. names ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 08:53:15 EST From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: s/sh, ethical dative, and songs s/sh There is a retracted /s/ that sounds like /S/ is central Texas. You could here it in LBJ's pronunciation. It also appeared in the speech of one of my brothers when he became a licensed pipe fitter in San Antonio in the early seventies. A curious thing to me (and a counterexample to some claims made in lectures about clusters in English) is the central Georgia /sr/ in _shrimp_, a mark of low caste to some natives. ethical dative Don't forget: I'm gonna hire me a wino To decorate our home So you'll feel more at ease, dear, And you won't have to roam. The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down I listened to the Band recording over and over again when I tried to learn the song as a college student. The first problem was the bad quality of the recording. At any rate, I ended up not singing the song much because the people who hated hearing it told me so a lot. I always sang "Till Stoleman's cavalry came/ And tore up the tracks again." By the way, what does it mean "to drive old Dixie down"? And why are the bells ringing and the people singing "Na, na, . . . "? I always have a hard time figuring out what songs say and am always impressed by people who claim to know what the words are supposed to be. I think that I give them more credit than they deserve. But when you sing the "wrong" words, people let you know. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 09:56:31 EST From: Vicki Rosenzweig murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET Subject: Re: Pigtails I wouldn't use "pigtails" for braids: my image of pigtails is matching ponytails on both sides of the head, probably worn by a girl not yet out of elementary school. Vicki Rosenzweig vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com New York, NY ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 10:25:32 EST From: Beth Simon SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET Subject: I don't know about schwa, but here's where to get the lyrics This may not determine whether there is a schwa (he [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]z just as wild), but it will certainly tell you which train and which army was clumping around the night they drove ol' dixie down. For song lyrics, (and also, usu chords or guitar tablature) ftp to ftp nevada.edu Songs are organized by artist in alphabetical subdirectories of /pub/guitar. (yes, I should be getting my American Sign Language lecture ready, but ...) beth ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 10:21:00 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: s/sh, ethical dative, and songs Wayne Glowka wrote: The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down I always sang "Till Stoleman's cavalry came/ And tore up the tracks again." OK, I thot Stillman. I wasn't far off. By the way, what does it mean "to drive old Dixie down"? And why are the bells ringing and the people singing "Na, na, . . . "? Obviously, what used to be called the Late Unpleasantness or the War for Southern Indepenence. I guess (I guess Late Unpleasantness is an archaism because the world has thot up so much more unpleasantness in the century or so since it was in vogue, so that now you have to specify which unpleasantness you mean.) Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 11:35:10 -0500 From: Donald Larmouth LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU Subject: "All-purpose tag ain' so? There is a tag-question in east central Wisconsin whose distribution appears to be wider than I first thought. The tag is ain' so? [enso] or [Enso], as in the following: It was a nice party, ain' so? We're having a really cold winter, ain' so? This isn't quite an all-purpose tag; there appear to be some limits to its appearance, as in the following: *You didn't REALLY do that, ain' so? *Of course I will--I promised, ain' so? *That's not the right way to do it, ain' so? (reprimand) I've heard this form many times in Green Bay and in the Door Peninsula, where there are many Belgian-Americans (Flemings and Walloons), but a student of mine from Reedsville (well south of Green Bay) has recorded it there among Czech (Bohemian) people. Have you (1) heard this tag elsewhere in Wisconsin or in other states, and if so (2) are there limits on its grammatical distribution? Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 12:35:39 -0500 From: PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: Re: song lyrics Still on The Band v. Joan Baez... Actually there's no contest. At least on the 1975 live version ("From Every Stage"), Joan got it right and sang "till Stonewall's cavalry came", the authentic lyric. Who the hell 'uz Stoleman? And it is a pretty compressed and complex song. I always figured it like this: the narrator is evidently in SW Virginia (Ollie North country nowadays), driving "the Danville train", though his wife's "back.. in Tennessee"; but Stonewall's cavalry were tearing up their own side's tracks to prevent the Yanks from using them; put ol' Virgil Cain right out of work. The bells were ringing, as they have from time immemorial, to warn of the (Yankee) enemy's attack; and I guess the image of driving Old Dixie down summons up driving cattle: the cavalry on horseback, the people fleeing on foot. Stereo Review once picked The Band as the most American of bands except that they were 4/5 Canadian; the song is by Robbie Robertson, a Canadian, but is a feature for Levon Helm, a Tennessee mountain boy (he also played Loretta Lynn's daddy in 'Coalminer's Daughter'). Anyway, it ain't 'Louie Louie'... My own favorite mishearing was when a linguist friend in grad school (I won't tell her name, but she wrote an excellent phonetic/ dialectological diss., also in coal-mining territory...) heard the then-current Eric Clapton hit "Lay Down Sally" as "Way Down South". Where Clapton learned to vocalize his L's is anybody's guess! --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 12:32:45 -0500 From: Steve Harris etnibsd!vsh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET Subject: Re: song lyrics re: Someday Soon FYI, the song was written by Ian Tyson, to be sung by his (then) wife Sylvia. A bit of good-humored ego-centricity, a man writing a song from the woman's point-of-view, about how she loves him because of his wild/reckless nature. I have the LP somewhere; if I ever get my turntable hooked up, I'll see how Ian and Sylvia sing it. -- Steve Harris - Eaton Corp. - Beverly, MA - vsh%etnibsd[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uunet.uu.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 13:04:12 EST From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: song lyrics My own favorite mishearing was when a linguist friend in grad school (I won't tell her name, but she wrote an excellent phonetic/ dialectological diss., also in coal-mining territory...) heard the then-current Eric Clapton hit "Lay Down Sally" as "Way Down South". Where Clapton learned to vocalize his L's is anybody's guess! --peter patrick That's what I hear every time I hear the song. I have to force myself to hear the right thing. Salikoko Mufwene once remarked (in a very good article on Gullah) that native speakers have some means of supplying important information that is actually missing in the phonology of utterances. I've never had that means when it comes to songs. Just try figuring out the words to the Flint Stone theme song--"courtesy of Fred's two feet"--what? Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 13:03:44 -0500 From: PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: Re: Recent Black English Sure, it's entirely possible that "HazVbitual BE" in AAVE doesn't mean Habitual anymore. But nobody's addressed the question that raises in my mind: what DOES it mean for Frazer's and other students? I think speculating on diachronic change or Labov's having gotten it influentially all wrong is silly until someone gives an example and says what it's supposed to mean (though both could possibly be true). Also, what exactly does Habitual mean here? I buy Sali's distinction in meaning between "He (ain't) lyin" and "He (don't) be lyin", (though using negative examples needlessly is always asking for trouble), but on my understanding they're both Habitual. (Also I hear both things on the street in DC with what seem to me the usual readings-- so far as an eavesdropper can tell!) I usually explain Habitual to students as involving two things: 1) repeated action (as in Sali's interpretation of the BE construction, which I gather he doesn't think IS habitual), and 2) lack of specificity. IE the speaker must be referring to something that happens more than once, and not referring to any particular case of it, if she is using a Habitual. Is that what others think it means? There's also the question of what is the norm from the speaker's point of view: the habitual is characteristic. This can be true even if it refers to something that isn't statistically the majority, as Sali's case ("I 0 stay with my sister, but I BE at my mother's most of the time") brings up. Be interested to hear more on this... --peter ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 13:31:53 -0500 From: PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: Re: song lyrics Yep. I think that's also the most mysterious thing about phonetics and transcription. To wit: you can't transcribe it correctly unless you already know what it means, ie, you can't HEAR it unless you know what it means. But how do you know what it means except by hearing it? This is why I'm so suspicious of working in languages/varieties I don't know well! and so respectful of linguists who faithfully describe things they admit they don't understand... --plp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 12:45:09 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Pigtails I wouldn't use "pigtails" for braids: my image of pigtails is matching ponytails on both sides of the head, probably worn by a girl not yet out of elementary school. Matching ponytails on both sides of the head are called "dogears" here. Or at least they used to be. Matching braids hanging down on both sides of the head are "pigtails." --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 12:51:28 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Recent Black English I usually explain Habitual to students as involving two things: 1) repeated action (as in Sali's interpretation of the BE construction, which I gather he doesn't think IS habitual), and 2) lack of specificity. IE the speaker must be referring to something that happens more than once, and not referring to any particular case of it, if she is using a Habitual. Is that what others think it means? That's what it means to me. I just looked for the article with examples of a rural/urban split on invariant "be" (in Texas) and found the reference: Bailey & Maynor. 1989. "The Divergence Controversy." American Speech 64.1: 12-39. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 12:57:33 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: song lyrics Yep. I think that's also the most mysterious thing about phonetics and transcription. To wit: you can't transcribe it correctly unless you already know what it means, ie, you can't HEAR it unless you know what it means. But how do you know what it means except by hearing it? This kind of thing has always worried me about transcribing. Face it -- our field is rife with potential for screwing up research. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 14:04:28 -0500 From: "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr." billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU Subject: Spring SECOL, 1995 Spring Meeting of the Southeastern Conference on Linguistics, 1995 Spring SECOL will be held April 6--8 (1PM Thursday until the end of a lunchtime barbecue on Saturday) in Athens, at the Georgia Center for Continuing Education. Early April is of course a beautiful time in Athens, usually the peak of the azalea and dogwood season. The conference will begin with an optional computer workshop at the Center (W. Kretzschmar) or a seminar on accessing Linguistic Atlas materials at the Georgia archival site (E. Johnson); the first paper session will begin in the middle of the afternoon. There will be a plenary by John Algeo, and a special session on Anthropological Linguistics chaired by Ben Blount, editor of *Journal of Linguistic Anthropology*. We hope to arrange an antebellum house tour at the conclusion of the meeting. The deadline for arrival of Abstracts in DECEMBER 5. Send 6 copies of an abstract not to exceed 300 words to Greta D. Little and Michael B. Montgomery, SECOL, Linguistics Program, University of South Carolina, Columbia, SC 29208. Abstracts should not contain the name of the author (to facilitate anonymous judgment); on each abstract put the title at the top of the page, and staple a card with your name, affiliation, address, and paper title to one of the abstracts. Assume 20 minutes' delivery time for the paper. Lodging is available at the Center, at $45-$55/night. The conference travel agent will be Gulliver's Travels (in Athens: 404-354-8747, 800-541-0807); flights are available direct to Athens (all via Charlotte on USAir), or to Atlanta with a ground shuttle direct to the Center in Athens. ****************************************************************************** Bill Kretzschmar (Host, Spring SECOL 1995) Dept. of English FAX: 706-542-2181 University of Georgia Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu Athens, GA 30602-6205 Bitnet: wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 13:19:41 CST From: Joan Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: song lyrics With ref to "He's just as wild," compare the DARE entry for _be_ sense B5a (page 178, col 1), where there is a fair amount of evidence for "I's(e)" meaning "I was." It's labelled "esp Midl, Sth." A reference you might want to follow up is 1966 _American Speech_ 41.77, which says, in part: "In the 'common speech' ..in Pennsylvania and the rural South,...a form _I's_ is very frequently heard in contexts which seem to require the past tense .._I's_ (past) is evidently a contraction of _I was_." Joan Hall, DARE ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 13:38:27 CST From: Joan Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: "All-purpose tag ain' so? DARE will include this in Volume III at _inso_ (contraction of "isn't it so?"). I'll send you what we've found, Don. Joan Hall ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: Pigtails Matching ponytails on both sides of the head are called "dogears" here. Or at least they used to be. Matching braids hanging down on both sides of the head are "pigtails." --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) just talked to an arkansasan (arkansawyer? arkansan?) (white male) who had the same intuitions as me. i really think it's largely a matter of how you ask the question--if you ask someone, "what was mary hartman mary hartman's hairstyle?" they'll say "braids"--if you ask what was cindy brady's hairstyle, they'll say "pigtails" because the prototypical styles associated with these names (in a certain white american cultural outlook) are close to these characters' hairstyles. but as cindy got older, she wore her hair in two braids-- this would not falsify my claim that she wore pigtails. and if i asked my friend "what kind of braids did mary hartman mary hartman wear?" he'd say "pigtails" (in fact, he did just that.) was invigilating (love that word) an exam today and so i had a good view of about 75 womens' heads and was trying to decide "would i call that braids?" it occured to me that the count/mass distinction for braids and braiding (or braided hair) is relevant. students with ornate patterns of braiding i could not say "wear braids" because you can't count them--there's no clear boundaries among braids. whereas people with braids that have a fixed endpoint (i.e., those that hang down, no matter how many) are braids. (i fit right into anna wierzbicka's claims about countability in her oats and wheat paper here). a child of the 70s (obviously), lynne ____________________________________________________________________ M. Lynne Murphy e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Lecturer, Dept. of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 South Africa ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 14:12:34 -0600 From: Lewis Sanborne lsanbore[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUNIX.SAU.EDU Subject: Re: song lyrics Just try figuring out the words to the Flint Stone theme song--"courtesy of Fred's two feet"--what? Fred's feet stick through the car's floor to propell it. Lew Sanborne St. Ambrose University Davenport, IA 52803 319 324-8266 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 14:28:10 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: Re: Pigtails My Arkansan parents say it's "Arkansan". And thanks for the new word, "invigilating" -- no modern dictionary I have has it, but OED cites the first instance in 1559! -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- McCartney/Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 14:43:02 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: _Grammar in many voices_ followup Here's the full citation (Beth). Marilyn N. Silva. Grammar in Many Voices. Lincolnwood IL: NTC Publishing Group, 1994. ISBN 0-8442-5828-8. -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- McCartney/Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 16:43:43 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: Recent Black English In Message Mon, 21 Nov 1994 13:03:44 -0500, PPATRICK%GUVAX[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.uic.edu writes: Sure, it's entirely possible that "HazVbitual BE" in AAVE doesn't mean Habitual anymore. But nobody's addressed the question that raises in my mind: what DOES it mean for Frazer's and other students? I think speculating on diachronic change or Labov's having gotten it influentially all wrong is silly until someone gives an example and says what it's supposed to mean (though both could possibly be true). Just one correction here: Did anybody mention Labov in the previous discussion? My statement was in the plural about "influential outsiders" and an invitation for those who have more experience with AAVE to articulate the distinction in meaning for the rest of us. Neither did I speak of having it "all wrong." The reply to Tim was that the student was partly correct; then I proceded to make a distinction between repeated processes/states versus basic habitual interpretation. Also, what exactly does Habitual mean here? I buy Sali's distinction in meaning between "He (ain't) lyin" and "He (don't) be lyin", (though using negative examples needlessly is always asking for trouble), but on my understanding they're both Habitual. My contrast was only between HE DON' TELL LIES (basic habitual) and HE DON' BE TELLIN LIES (repeated processes). You may say they are both habitual, but the second is a specific kind of habit focusing on the process part of the activity. As I said, the difference is perhaps more subtle than most of us outsiders to AAVE may be able to articulate well. In my interactions with African Americans, I perceive a semantic distinction between the two kinds of habitual reports. (Also I hear both things on the street in DC with what seem to me the usual readings-- so far as an eavesdropper can tell!) I usually explain Habitual to students as involving two things: 1) repeated action (as in Sali's interpretation of the BE construction, which I gather he doesn't think IS habitual), ... which I just corrected. I think you misunderstood me (some other readers may have too); I intended to clarify the distinction between the two kinds of habitual, which I do not think are interchangeable without changing meaning. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 18:32:16 -0500 From: Silke Van Ness SV478[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ALBNYVMS.BITNET Subject: ADS at ILA - call for papers CONFERENCE ANNOUNCEMENT ADS Session at ILA CALL FOR PAPERS ADS will hold a concurrent session at the 40th Annual Conference of the International Linguistic Association Date: from 1 pm Friday, through Sunday noon, March 10-12, 1995 Intercultural Center Georgetown University Washington, D.C. ILA Theme: Discourse and Text Analysis, however, papers from all areas of lingui stics are invited. Abstracts are invited for 20 minute talks. A one-page abstract, double spaced, c amera ready, in THREE copies should be sent to the Northeast Regional Secretary: Silke Van Ness Germanic and Slavic Lgs & Lits, HU 216 SUNYA 1400 Washington Ave. Albany, NY 12222 phone: (518) 442-4122; email SV478[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cnsvax. albany.edu ABSTRACTS must be received by Feb. 1, 1994 Registration fees (U.S. funds only): before March 1, 1995 (preregistration by mail): ILA and/or ADS professional member $30.00; student member $ 20.00 professional non-member $40.00; student non-member $30.00 after March 1, 1995 and on site: add $10.00 to above categories To preregister, send check or money order (US) payable to INTERNATIONAL LINGUIST IC ASSOCIATION to S. Van Ness at above address. Accommodations may be reserved directly with the Leavey Center of Georgetown at the rate of $109 single and $124 double per day: Leavey Conference Center, Reservations 3800 Reservoir Road Washington, DC 20057 (tel. 202-6873200) The ILA Conference Chair, Professor Ruth Brend, will be happy to arrange roommat es and will endeavor to provide information re less costly nearby accommodations (tel. 313-6 65-2787; fax. 313-665-9743; email ruth.brend[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]um.cc.umich.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 19:24:32 EST From: Beth Simon SIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IPFWCVAX.BITNET Subject: address please Does anyone have Tom Murray's &/or Tim Frazer's email address(es) handy? If so, would you send them to me at simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ? thanks beth ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 20:47:43 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: song lyrics Well, its a holiday, so here goes. Wayne thought thot the Flintstones were "courtesy of Fred's two feet." I thot it was "Flintstone Pete." (And I don't even like that show.) Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 20:52:01 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Recent Black English On Mon, 21 Nov 1994 PPATRICK%GUVAX[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UICVM.UIC.EDU wrote: mwhat DOES it mean for Frazer's and other students? I think speculating on diachronic change or Labov's having gotten it influentially all wrong is silly until someone gives an example and says what it's supposed to mean (though both could possibly be true). The student who told me this suggested that the meaning was no different from Standard English uses of the present progressive--at least I think so; it's been awhile and my memory is gettin fuzzy. Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 20:56:05 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: names This probably belongs on the NAMES-L if someone wants to repost (or not!) News today is that the Florida Orange Growers Association has offered OJ a million dollars to change his name ... to Snapple! -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- McCartney/Lennon ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Nov 1994 to 21 Nov 1994 ************************************************ There are 12 messages totalling 315 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "All-purpose tag ain' so? (5) 2. trizzle 3. invigilating 4. Pigtails 5. Arkansan/Arkansawyer 6. Pigtails snap poll 7. Recent Black English 8. Anyone familiar with the following expressions? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 21:03:22 -0800 From: THOMAS CLARK tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Re: "All-purpose tag ain' so? Dear Joan, Is this the same as "i'nnit" in various British productions: "It's the same over there as here, innit?" I seem to recall Inspector Morse saying, "Well, I don't know, do I? It's my job, innit?" On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Joan Hall wrote: DARE will include this in Volume III at _inso_ (contraction of "isn't it so?"). I'll send you what we've found, Don. Joan Hall ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 21:34:52 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: Re: "All-purpose tag ain' so? Thomas Clark writes: Is this the same as "i'nnit" in various British productions: "It's the same over there as here, innit?" "innit" is a very interesting construction, and the favorite, all-purpose tag-Q in the Cheyenne dialect of English. Except in CDE, the phrase has lost all vestiges of the 3rd person singular base, so you can get statements such as "you're goin' up north, innit?" or even "we're going tomorrow night, innit?". This seems to be the equivalent of the equally frozen French expression n'est-ce-pas (sp?). -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- McCartney/Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Nov 1994 21:45:52 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: trizzle No takers? Maybe such anal phenomena are not part of current fieldwork practices, but in my mom's Arkansas Ozark dialect, it's one step louder than an SBD (silent but deadly) and usually kinda "squeaks" out! -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- McCartney/Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 00:11:32 -0800 From: "Joseph B. Monda" monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU Subject: Re: "All-purpose tag ain' so? I remember that in and around Milwaukee WI in 1949-51, folks would end a statement with [en[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] ([AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] is a schwa). I don't think it was a contraction fro "ain't it." I had the feeling that it was a foreign word or phrase --possible German maybe Polish, that performed the function of "nicht wahr." But I was young and twenty. No use to ask me to pay attention. The Milwaukee Germans kept a lot of German constructions and words in their dialect. They pronounced Schroeder "shrader," and like that. I suppose that's all gone, with "make the light out," et al. Joe Monda On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, THOMAS CLARK wrote: Dear Joan, Is this the same as "i'nnit" in various British productions: "It's the same over there as here, innit?" I seem to recall Inspector Morse saying, "Well, I don't know, do I? It's my job, innit?" On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Joan Hall wrote: DARE will include this in Volume III at _inso_ (contraction of "isn't it so?"). I'll send you what we've found, Don. Joan Hall ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 02:00:00 LCL From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: invigilating And thanks for the new word, "invigilating" -- no modern dictionary I have has it, but OED cites the first instance in 1559! -- Moonhawk it's just the british word for "proctoring". (check a british dictionary--it's still in use!) first time i heard it, i thought it sounded obscene, but then i thought a bit more about "proctoring" and... lynne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 08:29:00 PST From: Ellen Fennell EMF[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSMAIL.WINROCK.ORG Subject: Re: Pigtails "Arkansawyer" is also correct, though it has fallen into disuse. Ellen Fennell Little Rock, ARkansas ---------- From: ADS-L To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L Subject: Re: Pigtails Date: Monday, November 21, 1994 2:28PM My Arkansan parents say it's "Arkansan". And thanks for the new word, "invigilating" -- no modern dictionary I have has it, but OED cites the first instance in 1559! -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- McCartney/Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 09:45:12 -0500 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: Arkansan/Arkansawyer Several years ago Wm Safire wrote about Arkansans. I wrote Wm Safire, pointing out that Vance Randolph in his 1953 book, Down in the Holler: A Gallery of Ozark Folk Speech, preferred Arkansawyer. I sent a copy of my letter to Fred Cassidy, who politely told me I was about thirty years out of date. Sure enough, Arkansan seems to have replaced Arkansawyer. But see Randolph (pp. 12, 224), who somewhere else (I don't have those notes here) said that an Arkansan was somebody who didn't know who he was, while an Arkansawyer was a native of Arkansas. It is Randolph who documents the introduction of a House bill in the Arkansas legislature to fix the pronunciation (it failed). Read all about this and other little-known Ozark facts in my (soon-to-be-)forthcoming book on Ozark Folk Speech. Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu Ozark Quesstion of the week: If you go the store to buy "highland fish" or "dryland fish," what do you come home with? (I don't have DARE here, so don't look--that's cheating!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 22:34:23 GMT From: "Warren A. Brewer" NCUT054[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWNMOE10.BITNET Subject: Pigtails snap poll 46;m;26;MD(0-12),HI(13-15),MA(16-18),CA(19-39),Taiwan(39-46);teacher pigtail,braid,queue;ponytail;pigtails,braids;gap ************************************************************************ The above is how I answered the following survey. Send data directly to me (ncut054 [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] twnmoe10), and results can be summarized to the list. Names & e-mail addresses will be kept confidential, unless respondents indicate otherwise. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Line 1: Respondent's background information (separate fields with semicolons). Field 1: Age 2: Sex (m or f) 3: Educational level (in years) 4: Residence(s)/timeline: Place(Age-span) (separate different residences with commas) 5: Occupation(s). ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Line 2: Responses to the following questions (again, separate fields with semicolons). If you have no word for a concept, enter "gap". Field 1: What do you call one single plait of braided hair that hangs down the back? 2: What do you call it when the hair is clasped or otherwise bound into a single bunch so as to hang down the back like a horse's tail? 3: What do you call two plaits of braided hair that hang down the back? 4: What do you call it when the hair is clasped or otherwise bound into two bunches so as to hang down the back like two horse's tails? [End of survey] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 10:24:53 -0500 From: Donald Larmouth LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU Subject: Re: "All-purpose tag ain' so? It is tempting to think that ain' so is very much like n'est-ce pas. We're still doing some work on this, but at least among Belgian-Americans who use the form ain' so, the following sentences are dubious to unacceptable: *You REALLY don't care, ain' so? *You DON'T suppose I'd do such a thing, ain' so? *You did it, ain' so? (accusation) *You WILL do it, ain' so? *That's NOT the smart way to do it, ain' so? *You just couldn't wait, ain'so? *You don't think I'd just walk away, ain' so? These are fairly similar to sentences from J.-P. Vinay & J. Darbelnet, Stylistique comparee du francais et de l'anglais, and in none of them is n'est- ce pas appropriate. However, I have a student doing some work in Reedsville, and her findings so far are more ambiguous. Concerning ain'a, this form does occur in east central Wisconsin and the Door Peninsula. Our recently retired purchasing agent, who is Walloon (but doesn't speak Walloon French), uses it along with ain' so. But I haven't done anything systematic with ain'a. My father (Madisonville KY) used to say idn'it, but then he said bidness instead of business too--some sort of z-- d rule, I guess--when he wasn't careful. And a colleague of mine from southern Illinois named his cat "Bidness" and has the same feature in his speech. Thanks for the comments. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 14:22:41 EST From: Mark Ingram MAINGR01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UKCC.UKY.EDU Subject: Re: "All-purpose tag ain' so? My father (Madisonville KY) used to say idn'it, but then he said bidness instead of business too--some sort of z-- d rule, I guess--when he wasn't and has the same feature in his speech. Thanks for the comments. I was the hospital librarian in Madisonville for 9 years. I say idn't as well, but restrict it's use to mean isn't it. I believe that idn'it can be heard pretty much anywhere in Ky. I learned it in Louisville in the 50s. Mark Ingram University of Ky Medical Library-Reference Lexington, Ky maingr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 18:46:11 -0500 From: PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: Re: Recent Black English Re: Sali's and Tim Frazer's comments on BEV/AAVE habituals. Yes, actually, Labov's analysis of habituals was referred to in the earlier discussion, though not by Sali (but this is a list-- do we have to make attributions here too?!). And if the point is that the "BE" construction isn't habitual, then Labov's and others' (e.g. Smitherman, 1997) analyses would in fact be "all wrong", and that would be important to know (I think; anyway, that's why I said it.) Thanks to Tim for clarifying the student's intuition. If this is what the intuition is, then it isn't the same as Sali's subtler distinction among Habituals; it's a denial that either type of Habitual applies in AAVE. This seems to be wrong for the people I have come in contact with, though since I'm not an AAVE researcher that's just an impression so far. Sali's semantic distinction does seem useful and apt; thanks for clearing up that these are sub-types of Habitual. Also, it seems perfectly well-articulated to me! I think linguists can articulate these things as well as the next guy-- probably better. Native speakers are useful for intuitions, and lots of other things, but give me a linguist when it comes to articulating semantic distinctions-- every time... --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Nov 1994 17:55:57 PST From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" cjcoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: Anyone familiar with the following expressions? "We got ourselves a convoy . . ." is frmo C. W. McCall's _Convoy_. As a former trucker, I can attest to the fact that trucker have a very unique way expressing many ideas. For example: "When we git past that bump in the road . . ." = After we cross the Rocky Mountains . . . "Chicken Coops" = weigh stations "Swindle Sheets" = Bills of Lading etc. Many of the terms seem obvious in origin if you think about them -- many are extreme overstatement or underststatement. Other terms, I'm not sure of the origins. Chuck Coker CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Nov 1994 to 22 Nov 1994 ************************************************ There are 7 messages totalling 184 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Pigtails 2. Change of address for A.Wright 3. Offensive sayings "from" PEI -- POST ONE 4. *fixin' to* and *like to* -- Dialectal Aspects 5. Recent Black English 6. song lyrics 7. Arkansawyer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 17:02:08 GMT From: Alan Lindsay TKUT160[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWNMOE10.EDU.TW Subject: Re: Pigtails I've never heard of dogears. Moreover, this ponytails isn't your ponytails is it? Someone needs to find an authoritative confirmation of the NE/NY sense of this term or make one. It's the one up there. AL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 05:35:43 -0800 From: Audrey Wright awright[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEACCD.SCCD.CTC.EDU Subject: Change of address for A.Wright As of now, my domain address has been changed to: awright[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]seaccd.sccd.ctc.edu Thank you ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 10:59:51 -0400 From: TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA Subject: Offensive sayings "from" PEI -- POST ONE Many, many thanks (personal to follow) to all who helped me clarify a list of potential sayings for my Prince Edward Island collection. I am encouraged to ask for this List's help again, in a similar way. I have in my files, but not yet edited into an Appendix, about 100 sayings certain to be offensive to one element or another of my chief targeted audience, the folks of PEI, on grounds mostly of their taboo words, but also occasionally for their racism or sexism (most of these pretty mild compared to items often discussed on this List). I wish this Appendix would go away but it won't; it's life, even in the land of Anne. It seems highly possible, however, that I can cut down on the number I need to include, if they are recognized, as some of the previous group were, by the subscribers to this List, as occurring outside my broad catchment area of the Atlantic provinces or the New England states. It is clear from the DARE volumes already published that a lot of compounds and expressions that use 'ass,' 'cunt,' and 'fuck' are not regional in the United States but national, or they would be in that dictionary (such is my true faith in that wonderful work). The same principle (I sniff a paper here) could apply. So I propose to list about twenty-five of these sayings every other day for the next week, with the above heading changed to POST TWO, THREE, and FOUR, so you'll know what's coming. And I ask that you write to me if you know any of them as being OUTSIDE THAT NORTH ATLANTIC REGION. Just refer to them by number if you wish, for a quick response, and remember that dead-easy address: tpratt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]upei.ca I would consider anyone writing to have the authority of print, which is what I use to reject ANY saying, and then I would be off the hook for the ones you tell me. Thanks in advance; acknowledgement in form also coming. READY? HERE GOES POST ONE: 1. from arsehole to appetite (of persons, 'completely') 2. up to their arse in clover 3. The arse has gone out of the market. 4. It's not up your arse or you'd feel it. (nonsense reply) 5. They know as much about that as my asshole knows about soapblowing. 6. as useless as balls on a heifer 7. to beat the snot out of [someone] 8. a bee up one's ass (busy mood) 9. better out than an eye (excuse for fart) 10. better out than in (ditto) 11. better to burp and taste it than fart and waste it 12. black as arse (dark night) 13. Bring that up after supper and we'll vote on it. (burp) 14. busy as a fart in a mitten 15. busy as a hen picking flyshit out of pepper 16. They could charm the pants off a nun. 17. so cheap they wouldn't give you the smell off last year's shit 18. to choke the chicken (male: either masturbate or urinate) 19. just the cock for Dolly (something fits) 20. to have cowshit on their boots (new to town) 21. up at crow piss (early in the morning) 22. There's a difference between scratching your arse and tearing it (overdoing something) 23. If that dog hadn't stopped to shit, he would've caught the fox. (lazy) 24. Wouldn't that make an old doy piss on her pups! (I'll be darned) 25. like dogshit, everywhere you go (someone hanging around) 26. Don't let the door hit your arse. (Farewell, so long.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 10:32:41 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: *fixin' to* and *like to* -- Dialectal Aspects Hm. Ever had a discussion on this topic? Last night on Hard Copy a guy being swarmed by killer bees in Texas said over his cellular phone, "I'm fixin' to pass out," which shows [fIksInt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] ([AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]=schwa) being used in the non-intentional sense. Note the similarity to what seems to me a weaker dialectal aspect, like to -- except [laIkt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] is only used for reporting past events, with the main verb in past tense, "I [laIkt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] passed out." Since English is not structurally a three-tense language but a two-tense with aspects, a point not generally well taught in English classes, aspects usually get short shrift in describing English. Questions: (1) Does anyone else have examples of dialectal aspects? (2) Does anyone else know how this description of English figured in Chomsky's only known (to me) direct attack on Benjamin Whorf to prove him wrong once and for all? (3) Does anyone care? -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- McCartney/Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Nov 1994 09:55:04 -0500 From: Ron Rabin RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU Subject: Re: Recent Black English My students report, given examples of urban black speech: "no one talks like that any more" or (and to my point) "it's embarrassing when you talk about that in class." Is it possible that students deny the existence of the invariant BE or put it off to "country talk" because it's a stigmatized form _now_ as perhaps it was not for their parents 25 years ago? Is there really any question that BE is still there and functioning as it has? I have noticed lately that my urban black students (from Buffalo and New York City) code switch more than they did when I began teaching here (18 years ago). Code switching I hear typically has sentences beginning in black English (often an introductory, locating or qualifying phrase) and finishing in "academic English," often with jargon we've been using in class, sometimes utilizing whole sentences from discussion. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 19:49:01 -0800 From: THOMAS CLARK tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Re: song lyrics On Mon, 21 Nov 1994, Wayne Glowka wrote: My own favorite mishearing... I have to force myself to hear the right thing. I was just reading Steven Pinker's Language Instinct: Mondegreens, he called them (not new with him) from "laid him on the green = Lady Mondegreen" Cheers, tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Nov 1994 20:04:27 -0800 From: THOMAS CLARK tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Arkansawyer On Tue, 22 Nov 1994, Ellen Fennell wrote: "Arkansawyer" is also correct, though it has fallen into disuse. Ellen Fennell Little Rock, ARkansas Ellen, Please remember linguistic progenitors and even those who have gone before. I am referring, of course, to Gary Underwood's article, "How YOU sound to an Arkensawyer." BG tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevad.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Nov 1994 to 23 Nov 1994 ************************************************ There is one message totalling 28 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Hope this helps ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 11:20:05 -0400 From: "Becky Howard, Department of Interdisciplinary Writing, Colgate University" BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU Subject: Hope this helps I'm increasingly fascinated with the E-mail complimentary close, "Hope this helps," followed by the sender's name. I see this much more frequently in discussion groups rather than in personal E-mail. ThHope this helps" replaces the "Sincerely" of hard-copy mail. I'm simply curious about the genesis of this electronic equivalent of "Have a nice day." "Hope this helps" seems to refer more to the sender than the receiver or the topic; "Hope this helps" seems to translate as "I'm eager to be agreeable." When I've used it, anyhow, that has been the closest translation. Where--and when--did "Hope this helps" appear? And WHY? Do the members of this list see this in their discussion groups, or is it specific to the electonic discourse of my discipline, composition studies? Becky Howard Department of Interdisciplinary Writing Colgate University Hamilton, New York 13346 Phone (315) 824-7315 (O); (315) 691-5116 (H) FAX (315) 824-7121 BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Nov 1994 to 24 Nov 1994 ************************************************ From owner-ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Sat Nov 26 23:00:37 1994 Received: from Walt.CS.MsState.Edu (walt.cs.msstate.edu [130.18.208.30]); by Tut.MsState.Edu using SMTP (8.6.9/6.5m-FWP); id XAA09994; Sat, 26 Nov 1994 23:00:36 -0600 Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu by Walt.CS.MsState.Edu (4.1/6.0s-FWP); id AA28057; Sat, 26 Nov 94 23:00:32 CST Message-Id: 9411270500.AA28057[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Walt.CS.MsState.Edu Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R2) with BSMTP id 0942; Sun, 27 Nov 94 00:01:04 EST Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA) by UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 1024; Sun, 27 Nov 1994 00:00:58 -0500 Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 00:00:57 -0500 Sender: American Dialect Society ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Reply-To: American Dialect Society ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu From: Automatic digest processor LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: ADS-L Digest - 24 Nov 1994 to 26 Nov 1994 To: Recipients of ADS-L digests ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Status: R There are 5 messages totalling 109 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. *fixin' to* and *like to* -- Dialectal Aspects (2) 2. Hope this helps 3. Offensive sayings "from" PEI -- Post TWO (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 08:58:21 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: Re: *fixin' to* and *like to* -- Dialectal Aspects Allen Maberry writes: I have always heard "fixin' to" as meaning "I am about to ..." with the cosequence being more or less remote (Country Joe's Fixin to die rag). On the other hand, I take "liketa' " as meaning something like "could have (but didn't really)" as in He liketa bust a gut laughing, etc. I think I have heard "liketa" with other than strictly past tense verbs. Or maybe my memory is gettin' hazy. Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu Interesting distinction! I'd be surprised if 'liketa' could be used with other than past tense, and would love to see such. Any others? -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- McCartney/Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Nov 1994 15:09:39 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Hope this helps this electronic equivalent of "Have a nice day." "Hope this helps" seems to refer more to the sender than the receiver or the topic; "Hope this helps" seems to translate as "I'm eager to be agreeable." When I've used it, anyhow, that has been the closest translation. I've always interpreted it as more like "I'm not sure this is exactly the information you were looking for, but I hope it's close enough to be useful." Where--and when--did "Hope this helps" appear? And WHY? Do the members of this list see this in their discussion groups, or is it specific to the electonic discourse of my discipline, composition studies? I see it more in information-exchange/question-answer type groups than in other kinds of discussions. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 08:52:52 CST From: Joan Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: *fixin' to* and *like to* -- Dialectal Aspects See DARE Vol II, _fix_ v B3, where _fix to_ means 'to be about (to)' as well as 'to plan or intend (to). Joan Hall, DARE ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Nov 1994 11:36:26 -0400 From: TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA Subject: Offensive sayings "from" PEI -- Post TWO Well that first list worked like a willy; in fact it was just the cock for Dolly. My thanks (personal to follow) to the six responders, who happily wiped out 7 of the first 26 offensive sayings I posted as potential entries in a second dictionary of Prince Edward Island English. Here then is Post TWO; are any of these found OUTSIDE THE NEW ENGLAND STATES OR THE ATLANTIC PROVINCES?: 27. to drain the main vein (male urination; sounds Aussie; is it?) 28. drunk as arse 29. drunk as three / four / seven barrels of shit 30. dry as a cow's ass / crow's crotch at fly time (NOT the 'tight as a bull's hole at fly time' idea or variants -- this one is thirst) 31. dry as a popcorn fart 32. so dry I'm farting / pissing dust 33. If my dog had a face like that, I'd shave its ass and teach it to walk backward. 34. worse than a fart in a mitten looking for a thumb-hole (fidgety; very like previous no. 14, still alive, 'busy as a fart in a mitt') 35. A farting horse will never tire, and a farting man is the one to hire. (proverb: useful for selection committees) 36. Even their farts / shit had muscles. 37. flat as a cow turd in June 38. to have flyshit on the face (freckles) 39. Wouldn't that frost your balls? (shocking) 40. to be full of shit and down a quart (lying or stupid) 41. Wouldn't that give the dog's arse heartburn? (more shocking) 42. good as a pee-hole in the snow (no good) 43. Go piss up a rope and play with the steam. 44. Go piss up a stick. 45. Go pump sand up your arse. 47. hole, heart, and soul (completely) 48. horny as a two-peckered rooster 49. to have an itchy prick (irritable mood) 50. They think they're King Shit, but they're only Fart, the messenger. (this and next are mere extensions of well-known cp) 51. They think they're King Shit from Turd Island. 52. They don't know whether to shit or wind their watch. (confused) YOUR STOMACH HOLDING UP OK? THAT'S ALL, FOLKS, FOR POST TWO. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 18:42:53 -0500 From: Ron Rabin RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU Subject: Re: Offensive sayings "from" PEI -- Post TWO #33 If my dog had a face...heard in California in the '50s. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Nov 1994 to 26 Nov 1994 ************************************************ There is one message totalling 18 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Offensive sayings "from" PEI -- Post TWO ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 09:23:00 CST From: Edward Callary TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NIU.BITNET Subject: Re: Offensive sayings "from" PEI -- Post TWO T Pratt: I got in late on your postings. Several from post two I remember from childhood (at least elementary school), but I don't know if there is hard copy on any. Do you need documentation or is personal knowledge (heavens, not usage) satisfactory? Cheers Edward Callary ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Nov 1994 to 27 Nov 1994 ************************************************ There are 6 messages totalling 133 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Hope this helps 2. Offensive sayings "from" PEI -- Post TWO 3. *fixin' to* and *like to* -- Dialectal Aspects (2) 4. Offensive Sayings "from" PEI -- post THREE 5. The great California freeway isogloss revisited ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 00:12:36 -0500 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: Re: Hope this helps Seems familiar from print to me. (Not that I actually use print anymore...) Inter-office memos? sending someone a reference to the right person when they got me instead? "Dear Abby' even? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 08:53:59 EST From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GC3.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Offensive sayings "from" PEI -- Post TWO 33. If my dog had a face like that, I'd shave its ass and teach it to walk backward. My friends and I said this lovely line in high school in San Antonio, Texas, in the late sixties. With so many people in town from all over because of the U. S. military, there's no telling where this statement of canine dysaesthesia came from. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 16:06:13 +0100 From: "E.W. Schneider" Edgar.Schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPRACHLIT.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE Subject: Re: *fixin' to* and *like to* -- Dialectal Aspects Folks fixin` to focus on *fixin` to* should first check Marvin Ching`s article in AS 1987 and some of the recent work by Guy Bailey and associates (which also has some stuff on liketa). Regards, Edgar Edgar.Schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de University of Regensburg, 93040 Regensburg, Germany phone (int. line)-49-941-9433470 fax (int. line)-49-941-9434992 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 10:31:28 -0400 From: TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA Subject: Offensive Sayings "from" PEI -- post THREE Though responses are tailing off a bit -- that could be good news or bad -- this checklist for sayings OUTSIDE THE ATLANTIC PROVINCES OF CANADA OR THE NEW ENGLAND STATES to be eliminated from Appendix of dictionary in progress of Prince Edward Island sayings, responses to tpratt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]upei.ca comma, continues to be a good idea. Thank you all. One more post to go after this one. Don't hold your breath. Do hold your nose: 53. Did your mother have any children who lived? (stupid) 54. lucky as a shithouse rat (any irony here?) 55. too mean to give their shit to the crows 56. like picking pepper out of flyshit with boxing gloves on (tedious) 57. to pinch a loaf (defecate) 58. to pull a rat (expose penis) 59. They would save a gas fart in a bottle (cheap) 60. They wouldn't say 'barnyard' in case there was shit in it. (snooty) 61. to feel like a shithouse mouse (poorly) 62. They would shit if they were well-fed (put-down for boaster) 63. Who shit in your cornflakes? (bad mood) 64. so full of shit their eyes are turning brown 65. to stick like shit to the bottom of your shoe (immovable) 66. They could shit through a screen door. (diarrhea) 67. They could shit through a straw. (ditto) 68. They could shit through the eye of a darning needle. 69. to be still shitting yellow (naive) 70. slick as shit and twice as clean (plausible) 71. slippery as six fat eels in a bucket of snot (tricky) 72. sour as piss (mood, I think) 73. to stick like shit on the wall (same as 65, or pals together) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 13:34:01 -0500 From: BARBARA HILL HUDSON BHHUDSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GROVE.IUP.EDU Subject: Re: *fixin' to* and *like to* -- Dialectal Aspects Wolfram mentions liketa [like to] in his Dialects and American English and I've heard older African Americans use the expression "fenna" for fixing to meaning about ready to. For example, "I'm fenna go to the store now, you want anything?" Barbara Hill Hudson Rhetoric and Linguistics IUP Indiana, PA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Nov 1994 23:09:06 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: The great California freeway isogloss revisited I think we've had a couple of recent threads on the division separating the southern Californians with their determined freeways (I was driving down the 605/the 101/the 880...) from their northern cousins who eschew the articles. (I think it has to be a three-digit, or at least a two-digit, freeway number.) I have another source to bring to the table. In the newest Sue Grafton alphabet detective series entry, K is for Killer, on p. 124, there are THREE different references to 'the 101'. From her airplane seat on the Santa Teresa-San Francisco shuttle, Kinsey Millhone (protagonist and narrator) 'could see the 101' near Santa Maria and Paso Robles. She lands at SFO and by 11:05 'was on the 101, heading north toward the city'. And finally, in the city itself, she continues on as 'the 101 dwindled down to a surface road'. Crucially, both Kinsey and her creator are from Santa Barbara (although in the former's case the city is referred to by its Twin Earth name, Santa Teresa), thus extending the isogloss 90 miles north of L.A. I'm sure no self-respecting San Franciscan would refer to the Bayshore Freeway (north from the airport), much less (MUCH much less) Van Ness Avenue through the city as 'the 101'. Well, at least the cliffside highway overlooking Big Sur has not yet been redubbed 'the 1' so far as I know. Even by Angelenos. --Larry Horn ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Nov 1994 to 28 Nov 1994 ************************************************ There are 10 messages totalling 168 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. LaserIPA software (2) 2. Offensive sayings "from" PEI -- Post TWO 3. The great California freeway isogloss revisited 4. 'the' in place names (Kaye) (5) 5. Linguistics ? Nicaragua ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 10:52:32 -0500 From: Donald Larmouth LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU Subject: LaserIPA software I would appreciate any advice I can get concerning a possible purchase of LaserIPA software, sold by Linguist's Software, Box 580, Edmonds WA 98020-0580. I'm using a Macintosh Quadra 610 and Microsoft Word 5.0. Is anyone using LaserIPA with a similar setup, and if so, are there any problems I should know about before ordering a copy? All I have right now is a one-page blurb from Precision Type in Commack NY. The sample printouts look pretty good, but it doesn't say much about how it actually works or how cumbersome it might be. Thanks a lot. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 12:30:42 -0500 From: "Terry Pratt, UPEI" TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA Subject: Re: Offensive sayings "from" PEI -- Post TWO Personal knowledge from the knowledgeable persons who inhabit this list is the equivalent to print on this subject, as far as I'm concerned. Thanks for the question, and I look forward to reading the fruits of your nasty elementary school. Terry Pratt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 14:23:21 -0800 From: "Alan S. Kaye" AKAYE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCVAX.FULLERTON.EDU Subject: Re: The great California freeway isogloss revisited I was intrihued by Larry Horn's observation re the def. article and dialectology. As a southern Californian, I can say (and do) 'I took the 91', etc., but with reference to Hwy 80, say, it sounds iffy to say 'I took the 80', or 'I took the 40'. Larry, do you mean to say a northern Calif. would say: 'I took 91' for my sentence above? Would it be ungrammatical or just awkward? Is any of this written up anywhere (books or articles). The reason I am most interested in this is that the loss of the article is a colloquial Arabic feature as opposed to the classical language. 'Alexandria' in coll. Arabic is 'iskindiriyya; in Classical Arabic it has an al- before it 'the' = al'iskandariyya. Does anyone out there have any parallels as I am writing this up in an article? Alan Kaye Linguistics CSU, Fullerton (CA 92634) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 17:27:33 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: LaserIPA software I've been using Linguist Software's laser fonts for several years and have had no problems -- other than the fact that it doesn't have a thorn. You do have to add 0.04 kerning to get the hachek right over the j, and add 0.01 to get it right over the c. I use IPARoman to go with Times; good match. I've also found that in PageMaker 5.0 square brackets and virgules get too close to some of the symbols, but that can be cleaned up by means of kerning. You can also ligature symbols by doing negative kerning. What you can do, of course, depends on your printer and printer driver software. The Tech Help guy is someone in Tennessee with some linguistics background; he works with biblical texts and needs a variety of fonts. (He may be in KY rather than TN.) DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 17:42:04 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: 'the' in place names (Kaye) Also: "The Lebanon" -- I assumed from French influence, but one also sees 'Al' before the Arabic form of 'Cairo' on maps. I hadn't noticed 'al Alexandria'. Spanish uses 'the' with a set of place names -- el Panama, la Havana, el Peru, ... Any Spanish textbook will have the list. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 20:13:54 -0500 From: Alberto Rey alrey[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLDC.HOWARD.EDU Subject: Linguistics ? Nicaragua Hello to all, I've just recently completed the data anlysis of a study of the 'you' subject pronouns in Nicaragua. I have a problem explaining an extreme difference in the usage of 'vos' towards women than that found for men in the neighborhood domain. Can anyone out there help me or give me a list/group that I could bother? Thanks in advance, Alberto Rey ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 22:27:30 -0500 From: Robert Kelly kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU Subject: Re: 'the' in place names (Kaye) Most curious American usage of THE I know is on the COlumbia in Oregon, The Dalles, (pronounced something like /d&lz/ (&=digraph). Never did find the reason. Big town. Dalles must be the dam or weir across the broad river there. It was 107 degrees when I passed through it, so I have not returned. RK ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 19:21:54 -0800 From: "Alan S. Kaye" AKAYE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCVAX.FULLERTON.EDU Subject: Re: 'the' in place names (Kaye) Re the loss of the definite article in languages: English names such as 'The Sudan' is a direct calque from Arabic. Lebanon is via French influence. Cairo is (in Arabic) al-qaahira (I have never seen 'The Cairo' in English, but cf. 'Le Caire'). What is interesting about Alexandria is that the Al (Arabic def. art. historically) is dropped in spoken Arabic, yet is never dropped in writing or in the classical standard. The answer for this change is simple: there is no functional yield to the article. It is beginning to be dropped in spoken Arabic in other cases. The Calif. English case cited re 'the 91' or '91' for freeway names is a fantastic parallel (universal grammar) or a coincidence (again universal gm), or both? Does everyone agree? I would like to ask other linguists for 'the' losses in dialects/ idiolects of the same language and/or different registers (Arabic diglossia). Do some Spanish dialects delete the el or la on names of places? Ever? Alan Kaye Linguistics CSU Fullerton, CA 92634 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 19:46:02 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: 'the' in place names (Kaye) Lots of Spanish-from-Arabic words have the Arabic attached to the front, with the "the" meaning forgotten. Then into English, as "What's playing at the Alhambra tonight?" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Nov 1994 23:16:50 -0500 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: Re: 'the' in place names (Kaye) My favorite "the the" name was a bar in Springfield, Mo., where I had my first fulltime teaching job (SW Mo. State College, now University)-- it was The La Petite Lounge. Students spoke of going to "The La Petite." Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Nov 1994 to 29 Nov 1994 ************************************************ There are 26 messages totalling 588 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. 'the' in place names (Kaye) (7) 2. More definite article (2) 3. 'the' in Spain (2) 4. The great California freeway isogloss revisited (10) 5. the wider the 6. *fixin' to* and *like to* -- Dialectal Aspects 7. 'the the' names; front vowels before l 8. Highland/drylang fish 9. subsription ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 01:35:31 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: 'the' in place names (Kaye) I was the one who mentioned La Habana, El Panama, etc. I'm not exposed to much vernacular use of Spanish in central Missouri, but I would expect encroachments of English to lead to the loss of 'el' in the names of countries and cities in Latin America -- at least in spoken language, though newspapers are probably more conservative (and more knowledgeable regarding 'points of grammar') than contemporary U.S. copy editors. (I've shifted from 'newspapers' to people in this sentence, but I ain't gonna go back and edit.) DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 05:32:30 -0500 From: Ron Rabin RABINRL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SNYBUFAA.CS.SNYBUF.EDU Subject: Re: 'the' in place names (Kaye) I'm not sure the use of the definite article and its lack of use with Los Angeles freeway names is an example of *loss* of the article. This is my impression of the historical progression on name changes (I lived in California, first southern, then northern, from 1948 until 1967): When I grew up in L.A., the freeways (steadily increasing in number) were always called by their names, never their numbers, e.g., the Hollywood Freeway, the Ventura Freeway, the Bakersfield Freeway. The highways connecting cities in California, e.g., U.S. 99, did not have names and were referred to by number without the definite article, e.g., I would say, "I'll take 99 home," when I described the route home from school at Berkeley to my parents' home in L.A. It was only after I left California, and not that long ago, I noticed that my parents referred to the freeways in L.A. by number and with the definite article. I have trouble following their discussions since I don't know the freeways by number but by name. It would be useful to know when this change took place in order to attempt to correlate it with events. Is there anyone out there in L.A. who lived through the change? Ron Rabin rabinrl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]snybufaa.cs.snybuf.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 07:32:29 EST From: Rex Pyles REXPYLES[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAINE.BITNET Subject: More definite article Where I grew up, in central WVa, the definite article was used with local roads if the road was named for its destination, i.e., the Belington (town) Road, the Cherry Hill Road, the Tacy (community) Road. If, on the other hand, the road was named for a family (farm and the like), the definite article was not used: Furbey (family name) Road, Chenowith (family name) Road, etc. With the preposition 'out', used for travel or location on such roads, the definite article was dropped. 'I'm going out Tacy, Cherry Hill.... .' 'He lives out Tacy, Cherry Hill.' This, for what it's worth. Rex ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 13:44:13 HOE From: Alberto RIO RIOGARAL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM1.SDI.UAM.ES Subject: 'the' in Spain 'The' ('el', 'la') survived until recently in some geographical names, but in the overwhelming majority of them is lost: *la Francia, *la Italia, as in French 'le Spagne', etc.; but today we say 'la India' and a few others, pres- erving the 'la' (female 'the') in very limited cases. Regards, Alberto RIO Fax.: +34 1 397-8599 Servicio de Cartografia, modulo de Geografia Phone: +34 1 397-3894 Universidad Autonoma de Madrid e-mail: Campus de Cantoblanco riogaral[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vm1.sdi.uam.es E-28049 Madrid, Spain riogaral at emduam11 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 08:52:47 EST From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: The great California freeway isogloss revisited The reason I am most interested in this is that the loss of the article is a colloquial Arabic feature as opposed to the classical language. 'Alexandria' in coll. Arabic is 'iskindiriyya; in Classical Arabic it has an al- before it 'the' = al'iskandariyya. Does anyone out there have any parallels as I am writing this up in an article? Alan Kaye A woman born in Philadelphia in the first decade of the twentieth century whom I once knew used to say "I have the diarrhea," whereas I--overeducated person from Texas born fifty years later-- would say "I have diarrhea." (Pratt may want to note that I'd say "I have the shits" or "I have the runs" or "I have the Hershey squirts"--sorry, folks. I'll bet the Hershey folks don't like the latter expression. They may prefer the euphemisms I hear like "Something is wrong with my system today" or "I have a virus.") My wife and her central Georgian family say "I'm gonna stay in the bed all day," whereas I would say "I'm gonna stay in bed all day." I have always assumed that my practice without the article was "standard." Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 09:37:06 EST From: Vicki Rosenzweig murphy!acmcr!vr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UUNET.UU.NET Subject: Re: 'the' in place names (Kaye) The most famous "the" anomaly in English geography may be "The Bronx" (which can be explained historically, but is still anomalous); the local Spanish press duly translates this, and refers to "El Bronx" (though if one were to follow the historical explanation, it should probably be "Los Bronx"). New York City also has two neighborhoods with "Heights" in their name, Washington Heights and Brooklyn Heights, either of which may be referred to as "the Heights," but that's a more straightforward shortening, I think. Vicki Rosenzweig Associate Editor, Computing Reviews vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com 212-626-0666 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 09:39:07 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: The great California freeway isogloss revisited In Message Wed, 30 Nov 1994 08:52:47 EST, Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gc3.GAC.PeachNet.EDU writes: A woman born in Philadelphia in the first decade of the twentieth century whom I once knew used to say "I have the diarrhea," whereas I--overeducated person from Texas born fifty years later-- would say "I have diarrhea." (...) My wife and her central Georgian family say "I'm gonna stay in the bed all day," whereas I would say "I'm gonna stay in bed all day." Now that the concern has broadened its scope... I've been interested in variation in constructions such as "go to (the) market", "be in (the) hospital", and "have (the) fever", as well as by "go to the (corner/convenience) store". I appreciate this addition to the list of items of interest. Incidentally, last weekend, in New Orleans, I heard somebody (native speaker!) say that XYZ was too busy "watching the TV" in the sense of what I have learned to say as "watching TV." Have you also noticed this construction or did I just stumble on an idiosyncrasy? Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 09:40:51 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: 'the' in Spain In Message Wed, 30 Nov 1994 13:44:13 HOE, Alberto RIO RIOGARAL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vm1.sdi.uam.es writes: 'The' ('el', 'la') survived until recently in some geographical names, but in the overwhelming majority of them is lost: *la Francia, *la Italia, as in French 'le Spagne', etc. Just a minor correction, the French for Spain is "l'Espagne." Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 09:11:23 -0800 From: "Joseph B. Monda" monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU Subject: Re: The great California freeway isogloss revisited "What's on the TV tonight?" would alternate with "what's on TV tonight?" in these parts (the Pacific Northwest). I don't have a clue why. Joe Monda Seattle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 11:14:18 -0600 From: Katherine Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM Subject: Re: The great California freeway isogloss revisited At 9:39 AM 11/30/94 -0600, salikoko mufwene wrote: Incidentally, last weekend, in New Orleans, I heard somebody (native speaker!) say that XYZ was too busy "watching the TV" in the sense of what I have learned to say as "watching TV." Have you also noticed this construction or did I just stumble on an idiosyncrasy? My husband and his family commonly use this construction. They are Cajuns, and natives of Port Arthur, Texas (on southern part of the Louisiana-Texas border), if that makes any difference. Kate Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 11:26:06 -0500 From: Donald Larmouth LARMOUTD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GBMS01.UWGB.EDU Subject: Re: The great California freeway isogloss revisited S. Mufwene cites "watching the tv". I have a similar form among the "Kentucks" in northern Wisconsin, but the first syllable of "TEEvee" is stressed (similar to the stress in "a POlice" (a police officer); thus "we was watchin' the TEEvee when the storm broke." I'm sure I've heard similar usage in western Kentucky among my older relatives. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 12:36:43 EST From: Rex Pyles REXPYLES[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAINE.BITNET Subject: Re: The great California freeway isogloss revisited Perhaps TV with the definite article refers more to the set, and without the article to the medium? In essence, both ways say the same thing. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 10:32:06 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: 'the' in place names (Kaye) Vicki Rosenzweig's New York report made me think of the names of San Francisco neighborhoods. The Mission The Haight The Ingleside The Sunset The Western Addition The Richmond The Castro The Marina but Noe Valley Hunters Point Japantown Chinatown North Beach Twin Peaks Bayview and the Bayview are both heard, as are South of Market and the South of Market. The former is older; when it was a largely Irish neighborhood it was called South of the Slot because there was a cable-car (with a slot to grip the cable) running on Market Street. These usages are pretty close to universal. I have been here since 1966, and I think they have held constant over that time. I don't see a pattern in these, myself; but anyone who said the wrong form would be marked as an auslander. Birrell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 14:18:40 EST From: BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: The great California freeway isogloss revisited From: NAME: David Bergdahl FUNC: English TEL: (614) 593-2783 BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX To: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX As Tolstoy reminds us in ANNA KARENINA, everyone that season had "La Grippe"--and subsequently we all had [the] grip or [the] flu. For my 2c worth, fashionable foreign names get naturalized, although "up where the Broncks live" is still THE Bronx. :-) DAVID David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 11:26:58 -0800 From: Scott Schwenter schwen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Subject: Re: 'the' in place names (Kaye) ....San Francisco neighborhoods. The Mission The Haight The Ingleside The Sunset The Western Addition The Richmond The Castro The Marina but Noe Valley Hunters Point Japantown Chinatown North Beach Twin Peaks Bayview and the Bayview are both heard, as are South of Market and the South of Market. The former is older; when it was a largely Irish neighborhood it was called South of the Slot because there was a cable-car (with a slot to grip the cable) running on Market Street. Aren't these differences due to the fact that those that take 'the' (except for 'The Western Addition') are shortened from a longer NP 'The X District'? On the other hand, the non 'the'-taking neighborhoods don't take 'District' : *'The Japantown District'. On local TV newscasts (e.g. KGO), those that take the article are always either 'The X District' or 'San Francisco's X District' Scott ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 13:36:28 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: the wider the As long as we're going wide at the same time as narrow, I remember my (Oz)Ark mom talking about people laid up with "the rheumatiz". -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- McCartney/Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 13:20:31 -0800 From: Dan Alford dalford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S1.CSUHAYWARD.EDU Subject: Re: The great California freeway isogloss revisited To bring it back to the original topic in the subject line, REAL DATA from last night as Jay Leno was talking to Wm. Shatner: We're going to be running a little bit late. Merv (Griffen) called -- he's stuck in traffic out on the 405 somewhere... (Shatner:) Where? On 405? (Jay:) 405 and Ventura Freeway. Note that Jay, definitely not a SoCal native, has picked up the general use of the 'the', but then when Shatner (also not a native, but has been in SoCal for a while now, I'd suppose) and Jay get into a little dialog, the article gets dropped like a proverbial hot potato. Evidently they both have stronger ties to places that don't use the "the" -- OR, once the "the" is established, maybe it doesn't need to be used so SLAVISHLY anymore. I too, like Rabin, grew up with DESTINATION names for freeways in LA rather than numbers. So really we're looking at two questions at once: since I too was gone from LA when these changes went into effect, I'm also interested in 1) when did the destination names change to designated numbers, and 2) was it then simply a natural extension from "you take THE Long Beach Freeway to THE San Bernardino Freeway..." to taking THE numbers? -- Moonhawk (%- ) "The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and the eyes in his head see the world spinning round" -- McCartney/Lennon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 18:53:48 -0500 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: Re: *fixin' to* and *like to* -- Dialectal Aspects I haven't read the recently articles on "fixin' to" so may be broadcasting my ignorance here. But I'm interested in the "fenna" fenamenon. I haven't heard this from older African Americans, but I have heard /fVna/ (invert that "V" for a wedge) from young folks. Also I've had students conversantv with AAVE observe it and report it to me without realizing that it was related to "fixin' to". One young white woman who grew up speaking AAVE in an inner-city Cincinnati neighborhood and school which is 95% used it herself but didn't get the link till I pointed it out. She talked to friends at home and reported that they found "fixin' to" and recognizable variants unbearably hick-like, but used /fVna/ freely without stigma. Does anyone else know about this? I would bet that in the communities where young folks use /fVna/ freely, older folks use a less-reduced form or none, but it's be nice to hear some facts from people who know more... --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 17:12:30 CST From: Susan Herring susan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTAFLL.UTA.EDU Subject: 'the the' names; front vowels before l My favorite 'the the' name is one I've heard on the San Francisco Bay Peninsula: "the El Camino highway" (to refer to a major north-south route named "El Camino Real"). This is of course doubly redundant because 'camino' means 'road' in Spanish -- literally, 'the the highway highway'. On a different topic, a student here at UTA is researching a southern dialect feature (also found among rural speakers in Texas) whereby front lax vowels become tense and diphthongized before /l/, as in /bijl/ for 'bill' and /wejl/ for 'well'. Has anything ever been *published* on this? Thanks, Susan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 17:52:20 -0800 From: "Alan S. Kaye" AKAYE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCVAX.FULLERTON.EDU Subject: Re: 'the' in place names (Kaye) Re names and numbers for freeways: Ron Rabin's point is that numbers replaced names. Not so. The 10 is still the San Bernardino Fwy; the 91 is still the Riverside Fwy. These are, I think, sociolectical variants (try to prove it!), or at least, free variants. I can say: I took the 10 home. Yet I cannot say: I took the 80 home. Or: I took the 40 home. So much for the disisible by 10 theory. The names are still very, very common (for some people much more used than numbers). Alan Kaye akaye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fullerton.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 18:00:42 -0800 From: "Alan S. Kaye" AKAYE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCVAX.FULLERTON.EDU Subject: Re: More definite article The only problem with Rex Pyles's analysis is how does one know the difference between the two types of names (let's say you are from another part of West Virginia or from Virginia driving around)? Start making up names and I think you will discover that this analysis does not work. Alan Kaye akaye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fullerton.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 21:12:13 -0500 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: Highland/drylang fish Inquiring minds want to know (at least, I want to know). Did everyone know about "highland/dry land" fish? Or did no one care? No one answered. There's still a prize a-waitin'. Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 21:15:35 -0500 From: Colin Clarke caclarke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GWIS2.CIRC.GWU.EDU Subject: subsription I'd like to subscribe to ads-L. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 18:21:15 -0800 From: "Alan S. Kaye" AKAYE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCVAX.FULLERTON.EDU Subject: Re: The great California freeway isogloss revisited Re Sali Mufwene's comment on 'watching (the) TV': Watching the tube, the boob tube, the box, etc. = watching the TV (via simple lexical replacement). This is slangier: cf.: He's watching TV again. He's watching the TV again. (more derision here). No wonder everyone says that the #1 error in non-native speakers' English is with the def. article. --Alan Kaye-- akaye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fullerton.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 18:33:57 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh birrell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: 'the' in place names (Kaye) On Wed, 30 Nov 1994, Scott Schwenter wrote: ....San Francisco neighborhoods. The Mission The Haight The Ingleside The Sunset The Western Addition The Richmond The Castro The Marina but Noe Valley Hunters Point Japantown Chinatown North Beach Twin Peaks Bayview and the Bayview are both heard, as are South of Market and the South of Market. The former is older; when it was a largely Irish neighborhood it was called South of the Slot because there was a cable-car (with a slot to grip the cable) running on Market Street. Aren't these differences due to the fact that those that take 'the' (except for 'The Western Addition') are shortened from a longer NP 'The X District'? On the other hand, the non 'the'-taking neighborhoods don't take 'District' : *'The Japantown District'. On local TV newscasts (e.g. KGO), those that take the article are always either 'The X District' or 'San Francisco's X District' Scott In many cases, the "the" forms ARE shortened NP's, with the flonger form being "the X district." "The Western Addition" is itself an NP. Interesting it is to note that Japantown and Chinatown are NP's in the languages of the immigrants (Nihonmachi, Wa Faau) but not in English. Nice discerning, Scott. Birrell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Nov 1994 18:37:57 -0800 From: "Alan S. Kaye" AKAYE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCVAX.FULLERTON.EDU Subject: Re: The great California freeway isogloss revisited More native speaker data froma southern Californian (who lived in Berkeley for 4 years, too): In giving directions, I can say both (free variation?): Get on (the) 91. Then take (the) 55 into the 405. Gte off at XYZ. To delete the last 'the' is very, very 'iffy'. (Typo above: 'Get'.) I can't believe that with 40 yars of TG-GB, etc., all this has not been studied to death. Come on guys and gals: there has got to be a ton of publications on this stuff. --Alan Kaye-- akaye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fullerton.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Nov 1994 to 30 Nov 1994 ************************************************ .