There are 20 messages totalling 606 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. regional distribution? (12)
  2. RE>regional distribution?
  3. hello, hello
  4. RE>Re: Neologisms
  5. folding laundry
  6. Fred Cassidy
  7. hello, hello, and 99 bottles
  8. pundent
  9. Upstate New York

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 May 1998 23:26:34 -0700
From:    Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>
Subject: regional distribution?

There was a Bizarro cartoon in the paper on Saturday (5/2) showing a family
happily singing in a car.  The caption was "The lexicon family singers on a
road trip."  They were singing:

"...One less than 100 glass, narrow-necked containers of alcoholic
beverages brewed from barley & hops on the room-dividing structure - one
less than 100 glass, narrow-necked containers of alcohholic beverages
brewed from barley & hops.  Take one down, pass it around...."

My question, though, is how many of you sang (sing?) that with "take one
down, pass it around..." and how many with "If one of those bottles should
happen to fall, (number) bottles of beer on the wall"?

I learned the second choice - in NYC.

Rima

(Of course, then there was the explanation of recursive music someone gave
me.  The example was "100 bottles of beer on the wall, 100 bottles of beer.
Take one down, put it back up, 100 bottles of beer on the wall."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 May 1998 08:19:15 -0400
From:    Robert Ness <ness[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU>
Subject: Re: regional distribution?

the first-PA On Sun, 3 May 1998, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:

> There was a Bizarro cartoon in the paper on Saturday (5/2) showing a family
> happily singing in a car.  The caption was "The lexicon family singers on a
> road trip."  They were singing:
>
> "...One less than 100 glass, narrow-necked containers of alcoholic
> beverages brewed from barley & hops on the room-dividing structure - one
> less than 100 glass, narrow-necked containers of alcohholic beverages
> brewed from barley & hops.  Take one down, pass it around...."
>
> My question, though, is how many of you sang (sing?) that with "take one
> down, pass it around..." and how many with "If one of those bottles should
> happen to fall, (number) bottles of beer on the wall"?
>
> I learned the second choice - in NYC.
>
> Rima
>
> (Of course, then there was the explanation of recursive music someone gave
> me.  The example was "100 bottles of beer on the wall, 100 bottles of beer.
> Take one down, put it back up, 100 bottles of beer on the wall."
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 May 1998 09:25:40 -0400
From:    Al Futrell <awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOMER.LOUISVILLE.EDU>
Subject: Re: regional distribution?

Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:

> My question, though, is how many of you sang (sing?) that with "take one
> down, pass it around..." and how many with "If one of those bottles should
> happen to fall, (number) bottles of beer on the wall"?

In Central Illinois we always took one down and passed it around in the 60s.

--
Al Futrell <al[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]louisville.edu>
University of Louisville - Dept of Communication
Louisville, KY  USA

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 May 1998 10:29:55 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: regional distribution?

At 11:26 PM -0700 5/3/98, Rima McKinzey wrote:
>
>My question, though, is how many of you sang (sing?) that with "take one
>down, pass it around..." and how many with "If one of those bottles should
>happen to fall, (number) bottles of beer on the wall"?
>
>I learned the second choice - in NYC.

     Ditto                   -  ditto.    Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 May 1998 10:09:07 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: RE>regional distribution?

In Missouri (Troy, St. Louis, Vandalia, Clubb, Columbia) we always took one down and passed it around, but I do remember hearing the other. Probably on TV.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 May 1998 16:36:05 +0200
From:    David Sutcliffe <david.sutcliffe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TRAD.UPF.ES>
Subject: Re: hello, hello

The use of "ahoy" for "hello" on the telephone underlines the fact that
"halloa" (etc.) was first used for hailing, or "hallooing".

The earliest attestation of hello (et al) as greeting /interjection that
the OED gives for British English is 1840:

"Halloa there! Hugh," roared John.
 (Barnaby Rudge)

An 1857 attestation is:

"Hullo, who's there."
(Tom Brown's Schooldays. I, XI)

But in fact as a verb, the OED can go further back, to 1781:

They were all halloaing at this oddity.
(Madame D'Arblay: Diary, May)

I was wondering what colloquial greetings if any, predated "hello"? in
the United States. For British English I found early-mid 19th century
_What cheer!_ in Dickens - something I used as a child, pronounced "what
CHER".   As in the old London song "Knocked me in the Old Kent Road",
which starts:

"What cher!" all the neighbours cried. "Who're you gonna meet Bill?
Have you bought the street, Bill?"

Another older form that's still occasionally heard is  _What-o!"_
(probably "what-ho!")

David Sutcliffe

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 May 1998 10:37:57 -0400
From:    Wendalyn Nichols <wnichols[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RANDOMHOUSE.COM>
Subject: Re: regional distribution?

Second choice. (western Montana/Seattle upbringing).
But it never started with 100 - always with 99.




Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkm [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] SLIP.NET> on 05/04/98 02:26:34 AM

Please respond to American Dialect Society <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

To:   ADS-L [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
cc:    (bcc: Wendalyn Nichols/Trade/RandomHouse)
Subject:  regional distribution?




There was a Bizarro cartoon in the paper on Saturday (5/2) showing a family
happily singing in a car.  The caption was "The lexicon family singers on a
road trip."  They were singing:

"...One less than 100 glass, narrow-necked containers of alcoholic
beverages brewed from barley & hops on the room-dividing structure - one
less than 100 glass, narrow-necked containers of alcohholic beverages
brewed from barley & hops.  Take one down, pass it around...."

My question, though, is how many of you sang (sing?) that with "take one
down, pass it around..." and how many with "If one of those bottles should
happen to fall, (number) bottles of beer on the wall"?

I learned the second choice - in NYC.

Rima

(Of course, then there was the explanation of recursive music someone gave
me.  The example was "100 bottles of beer on the wall, 100 bottles of beer.
Take one down, put it back up, 100 bottles of beer on the wall."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 May 1998 07:49:01 -0700
From:    Judi Sanders <jasanders[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: regional distribution?

Al Futrell wrote:

> In Central Illinois we always took one down and passed it around in the 60s.

The same was true in Oregon.  BTW, kids now learn the song as "99 bottles of pop on the wall" . . .
in keeping with the times

Judi Sanders

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr. Judi Sanders
Professor, Communication
Cal. State Polytechnic U., Pomona
The Web:  http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders
The College Slang Page:  http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders/slang
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 May 1998 10:43:04 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: RE>Re: Neologisms

I have never seen that list, but I do know some of the words and I have a few thoughts.

casp kid: Casp kids (those born between 1960 and 1970) actually benefited from the mass media's obsession with the boomers. (95/4/25 New York Times A3)

-- I have a feeling this should be "cusp kid," which I have seen in print before.

chai: To the coffees and teas it serves in its cafes, Borders bookstore add  chai, a blend of tea, milk, vanilla, honey and spices. (5/15/97 Wall Street Journal p1)

-- This is an interesting usage of what I always considered a generic word for "tea" from Russian and a couple of related languages. Here in the New York City, at least, "chai" has usually gone the route of referring specifically to more or less "Turkish coffee" but there is an article about the "chai" trend at

http://www.bakersdzn.com/facts/chai.html

cigar-ish: News of the New York nightlife crackdown must be slow to travel, and that s a good thing. With a few exceptions, clubland of late has tended toward the intimate, loungey, cigar-ish; let's face it, it's been getting boring. (97/9/8 New York p128)

-- Nothing unusual with the "ish" suffix. We use it all the time to mean "around, about, like, approximately, similar to, related to." My favorite usage of "ish" is to tack on the end of a time, as in "We'll meet at the bar at two-ish" meaning "We'll meet at the bar sometime around two o'clock."

crowd-surf: That  crowd-surfing  business looks like fun. I tried to imagine hippies crowd-surfing at the original Woodstock to someone like, oh, Ravi Shankar. Then again, you watch people crowd-surfing to countrified Melissa Etheridge and you think: What s wrong with this picture? (8/15/94 Sun D1)

-- Crowd surfing is when a body is lifted and passed around by a sea of arms and people, usually at a music show. Concert footage often shows ill, faint or injured fans being passed to medical personnel on the perimeter this way, but the fans and the musicians themselves are just as likely to do it. It's fun. Goes hand in hand with "moshing" (thrashing around and dancing dervish-like; I used to hear it applied to crowds at heavy metal shows, but now I believe it's in broader use) and "stage diving" (you know: leaping off the stage head and arms first onto the moshing bodies below) and "the pit" (the intense knot of moshers near the front of the stage made up of pushers, shovers, spinners, all galloping and pogoing about).


Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 May 1998 11:30:37 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: folding laundry

Folding laundry is one of the things my wife definitely doesn't enjoy, and especially asks my help with. I am glad to help
her with it, because it's time with my favorite person and it gives us a chance to talk! (Two jobs + two boys in h.s. +
many activities [us as well as them!] + ... = When do we get to talk?) Also, in our small bedroom it helps to have one
sitting on the bed with the basket of clean stuff, sorting and piling, and one standing up between the closet (to hang
things) and the dressers (to put things into drawers).

-- Mark

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 May 1998 10:31:50 -0600
From:    Joan Houston Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fred Cassidy

I'm delighted to be able to report that Fred Cassidy is back in Madison and
is doing quite well.  He comes in to the office regularly, and is even
talking about trips to England and the Caribbean this summer.  Thanks to all
of you who wrote him with your good wishes.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 May 1998 08:50:19 -0700
From:    Grant Smith <gsmith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: regional distribution?

Always the second choice in Bellingham WA and at college in Portland OR
(50s & early 60s)--sometimes starting with 99, sometimes with 100.



>Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkm [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] SLIP.NET> on 05/04/98 02:26:34 AM
>
>Please respond to American Dialect Society <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
>
>To:   ADS-L [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
>cc:    (bcc: Wendalyn Nichols/Trade/RandomHouse)
>Subject:  regional distribution?
>
>
>
>
>There was a Bizarro cartoon in the paper on Saturday (5/2) showing a family
>happily singing in a car.  The caption was "The lexicon family singers on a
>road trip."  They were singing:
>
>"...One less than 100 glass, narrow-necked containers of alcoholic
>beverages brewed from barley & hops on the room-dividing structure - one
>less than 100 glass, narrow-necked containers of alcohholic beverages
>brewed from barley & hops.  Take one down, pass it around...."
>
>My question, though, is how many of you sang (sing?) that with "take one
>down, pass it around..." and how many with "If one of those bottles should
>happen to fall, (number) bottles of beer on the wall"?
>
>I learned the second choice - in NYC.
>
>Rima
>
>(Of course, then there was the explanation of recursive music someone gave
>me.  The example was "100 bottles of beer on the wall, 100 bottles of beer.
>Take one down, put it back up, 100 bottles of beer on the wall."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 May 1998 08:59:30 -0700
From:    "A. Maberry" <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: regional distribution?

I learned the non-NYC version in Portland OR.

Allen
maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu

On Mon, 4 May 1998, Larry Horn wrote:

> At 11:26 PM -0700 5/3/98, Rima McKinzey wrote:
> >
> >My question, though, is how many of you sang (sing?) that with "take one
> >down, pass it around..." and how many with "If one of those bottles should
> >happen to fall, (number) bottles of beer on the wall"?
> >
> >I learned the second choice - in NYC.
>
>      Ditto                   -  ditto.    Larry
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 May 1998 11:34:11 -0700
From:    Peter Richardson <prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: regional distribution?

> Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:
>
> > My question, though, is how many of you sang (sing?) that with "take one
> > down, pass it around..." and how many with "If one of those bottles should
> > happen to fall, (number) bottles of beer on the wall"?
>
#2 first, then #1 later (northern Illinois, mid/late 50s)

Peter Richardson

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 May 1998 11:52:24 -0700
From:    "A. Vine" <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: regional distribution?

Texas, late 60'/early 70's, option 1, 99 bottles.

(should I go ahead and mention "Found a peanut" too?)

Andrea
--
bite the wax tadpole


Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:
>
> There was a Bizarro cartoon in the paper on Saturday (5/2) showing a family
> happily singing in a car.  The caption was "The lexicon family singers on a
> road trip."  They were singing:
>
> "...One less than 100 glass, narrow-necked containers of alcoholic
> beverages brewed from barley & hops on the room-dividing structure - one
> less than 100 glass, narrow-necked containers of alcohholic beverages
> brewed from barley & hops.  Take one down, pass it around...."
>
> My question, though, is how many of you sang (sing?) that with "take one
> down, pass it around..." and how many with "If one of those bottles should
> happen to fall, (number) bottles of beer on the wall"?
>
> I learned the second choice - in NYC.
>
> Rima
>
> (Of course, then there was the explanation of recursive music someone gave
> me.  The example was "100 bottles of beer on the wall, 100 bottles of beer.
> Take one down, put it back up, 100 bottles of beer on the wall."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 May 1998 15:03:13 -0400
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: hello, hello, and 99 bottles

And of course the Old English "waes hael" (be well > wassail, heal,
healthy) preceded the later "hail," as in "hail fellow, well met."

A sidenote (or sideways shift):  In southern Ohio the tense /e/ of 'sale'
is laxed to /E/ (as in 'hail > hello' too) or even lowered to /ae/, as in
'available.'  Similar laxing occurs with /i/, as in 'feel' > [fIl] and
'field > [fIld].  How widespread is this?  I have it as far north as Dayton
(on US 70), but I don't think it's in Columbus.

BTW, we did "if one of those bottles ..." in Minnesota in the '50s, but
I've heard the other version since too.

At 04:36 PM 5/4/98 +0200, you wrote:
>The use of "ahoy" for "hello" on the telephone underlines the fact that
>"halloa" (etc.) was first used for hailing, or "hallooing".
>
>The earliest attestation of hello (et al) as greeting /interjection that
>the OED gives for British English is 1840:
>
>"Halloa there! Hugh," roared John.
> (Barnaby Rudge)
>
>An 1857 attestation is:
>
>"Hullo, who's there."
>(Tom Brown's Schooldays. I, XI)
>
>But in fact as a verb, the OED can go further back, to 1781:
>
>They were all halloaing at this oddity.
>(Madame D'Arblay: Diary, May)
>
>I was wondering what colloquial greetings if any, predated "hello"? in
>the United States. For British English I found early-mid 19th century
>_What cheer!_ in Dickens - something I used as a child, pronounced "what
>CHER".   As in the old London song "Knocked me in the Old Kent Road",
>which starts:
>
>"What cher!" all the neighbours cried. "Who're you gonna meet Bill?
>Have you bought the street, Bill?"
>
>Another older form that's still occasionally heard is  _What-o!"_
>(probably "what-ho!")
>
>David Sutcliffe
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 May 1998 12:38:47 -0700
From:    Bill King <wfking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOTNET.NET>
Subject: Re: regional distribution?

--------------4C490D048A819FD8805FCFC0
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Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:

> ...My question, though, is how many of you sang (sing?) that with "take one
> down, pass it around..." and how many with "If one of those bottles should
> happen to fall, (number) bottles of beer on the wall"?
>
>
> Rima
>

The first in eastern NY State and the second in Arizona.

         At some point those bottles are probably being dropped ;)

Bill King.

--------------4C490D048A819FD8805FCFC0
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<HTML>
&nbsp;

<P><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times">Kim &amp; Rima McKinzey wrote:</FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times">...My question,
though, is how many of you sang (sing?) that with "take one</FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times">down, pass it around..." and how
many with "If one of those bottles should</FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times">happen to fall, (number) bottles
of beer on the wall"?</FONT>
<BR>&nbsp;

<P><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times">Rima</FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times"></FONT>&nbsp;</BLOCKQUOTE>
<FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times">The first in eastern NY State and the
second in Arizona.</FONT><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times"></FONT>

<P><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;
At some point those bottles are probably being dropped ;)</FONT><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times"></FONT>

<P><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times">Bill King.</FONT></HTML>

--------------4C490D048A819FD8805FCFC0--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 May 1998 17:24:01 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: pundent

Duane Campbell <dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET> wrote:
 >>>

I don't know whether these things happen suddenly or whether they build gradually until they reach a critical mass
where I notice them. But when did "pundit" become "pundent"?

The word has been tossed out a bit more than usual lately on television news shows, and in virtually every iteration it
has been pronounced with that extra N slipped in.
 <<<

Rather like "tenets" becoming "tenants", which I've noticed a lot. I can sort of see "tenant" as a case of thinking you hear
a familiar word in an unfamiliar context, but what the heck, English is full of weird homophones, it must be the word I
know. But "pundent" admits of no such explanation. However, there are plenty of English words ending in /[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nt/ ([AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] =
schwa), and not many ending in /It ~ [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]t/. But the strongest candidate of all, IMHO -- not necessarily acting alone -- is
nasalization spreading from the first /n/. Discussion?

-- Mark

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 May 1998 18:54:45 -0500
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: regional distribution?

Rima McKinzey wrote:

> My question, though, is how many of you sang (sing?) that with "take one
> down, pass it around..." and how many with "If one of those bottles should
> happen to fall, (number) bottles of beer on the wall"?

Let me submit family testimony from me and my wife.  For us, in the
middle 1940's, Chicago environs, bottles fell.  (Subjunctively, of
course.) I didn't hear the "take one down" version until the late
1960's.  In the early 70's, my kids learned of the gravitic propensities
of containers of malt beverages in DeKalb, Illinois from their
gradeschool classmates . . .  who apparently never thought of sharing
bottles or anything else much.
(In the line of drinkables, that is.  Other substances, other customs.)

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 May 1998 22:01:42 -0500
From:    Dan Goodman <dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM>
Subject: Upstate New York

This is intended for the alt.culture.ny-upstate FAQ.  Please let me
know if you spot any errors:

Q:  Does everyone Upstate talk without an accent, like me?
A:  There are two main dialects upstate.  The Hudson Valley dialect is
centered in the Hudson Valley, north of the New York Metropolitan
dialect; it extends beyond state borders into New Jersey and
Pennsylvania.  The Upstate New York dialect takes in the rest of
Upstate, plus slices of Pennsylvania and Vermont.  Within each of
these, there are smaller dialect areas.

Dan Goodman
dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 3 May 1998 to 4 May 1998
**********************************************
There are 21 messages totalling 769 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Deleted "to";  'em singular (2)
  2. cod fax (4)
  3. been: Ben vs. bin (2)
  4. Minnesota-area dialect
  5. Honest John
  6. Togie
  7. <No subject given> (2)
  8. MISC (2)
  9. 50 Years of Language Change
 10. Call: Interdisciplinary Conference
 11. Guy Bailey's email address?
 12. Ten green bottles (2)
 13. your mail

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 12:57:32 +0200
From:    David Sutcliffe <david.sutcliffe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TRAD.UPF.ES>
Subject: Deleted "to";  'em singular

Dear List,

I note that the "99 bottles...take one down, pass around", and the "go
with" and "come with" users turned out to have quite complex regional
distribution in the States. What about the following features which I
would have thought originally Black and/or Southern:

1) Deletion of _to_ infinitive marker as in "I want you guys have a good=

time"

2) The use of 'em for (h)im in unstressed position. (This question
assumes that speakers generally have an opposition between schwa and lax=

/I/ in unstressed syllables).

I went to see the Titanic movie recently, and noticed the present day
characters at the beginning using the deleted "to". These speakers
sounded more Midland than Southern. =20

I also noticed the male lead, Leonardo di Caprio, regularly using the
=B4em for (h)im feature, whereas the upper class heroine only used it
occasionally, otherwise (h)im.

My impression is that deleted "to" in non-southern speech implies
extreme laid-back colloquial-ness - I've noticed it being used when
giving orders, as if to soften their impact.

I'd be glad if you could put me right on this, regarding usage,
distribution, etc. Thanks! I know I can be wildly wrong - for instance
the other day I assumed "folding laundry" was a lexical item like
"folding money".

Post script: the film was great, in the full sense of the word. Most of
the time I wasn't even thinking about pronunciations!

David Sutcliffe
Universitat Pompeu Fabra
Rambla  30-32
Barcelona

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 07:29:03 -0500
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Deleted "to";  'em singular

David Sutcliffe wrote:
>
> Dear List,
>

>  What about the following features which I
> would have thought originally Black and/or Southern:
>
> 1) Deletion of _to_ infinitive marker as in "I want you guys have a good
> time"

Fairly widespread usage in (white) Chicagoland a generation or two ago.
The most frequent incidence I have noted was in (Irish) Bridgeport and
Back of the Yards, on the South Side, and in North side areas of heavy
Polish settlement.  The "deleted to" alternates with an unstressed schwa
where "to" might have appeared: "I want you guys uh have a good time".

This isn't part of my usual speech pattern.  When I deliberately set an
alternative pattern (speaking platform English all the time can have
horrible social consequences), I fall into the schwa form.

> 2) The use of 'em for (h)im in unstressed position. (This question
> assumes that speakers generally have an opposition between schwa and lax
> /I/ in unstressed syllables).

Perfectly good (white) Chicagoese when I was growing up.  Most varieties
did have that two-way contrast. The "'em" form may well represent a
homonym pair, for either "him" or "them", in the unstressed position.

There are some speakers who have a three way split in unstressed
syllables: schwa, lax /I/ (or is that a barred i?), and a lax, backed
mid-front /e/ or /E/.  The third one sounds too centralized to be in the
homophone range of /e/ - /E/ in stressed syllables, but it isn't as
central as schwa, either.  For those speakers, "'im" (for him) and "'em"
(for them) would contrast: the "him" form would have schwa, the "them"
form would come out in the backed /e/ - /E/ range.

I get the impression that the three-way split in the unstressed position
is a kind of  hyperurbanism.  (There's my old Milwaukeee teacher
inveighing against "dropped aitches" again.)  Making consistent
distinctions among two or three unstressed, central vowels doesn't
restore the "missing" h or th, but it does maintain clear contrast
between him and them.

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 08:53:40 -0400
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: cod fax

At 09:55 AM 5/7/98 -0700, 951208[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fudan.edu.cn wrote:
>Has anybody there ever come up with a definition for  cod fax :
>
>cod fax        When the same editor was exposed forging a letter and a
>signature on stolen writing-paper, the Guardian treated that as a joke
>too. It was not a forgery, it was a  cod fax . (The Spectator 7/26/97
>p24)   The crime is euphemistically described as  a cod fax , a
> stratagem , a  ruse  and a  formula . (98/2 Atlantic Monthly p79)
>

"Cod" (noun and verb) is a long-standing UK term for a trick or various
other kinds of insincerity; the word appears in Joyce's work from the early
20th century. "Cod fax" would be pretty transparent to someone familiar with
"cod" in the sense of trick. To my knowledge this "cod" is not in vernacular
use in the US, but I could be wrong.

Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 10:53:29 +0000
From:    David Bergdahl <bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: been: Ben vs. bin

A student of mine writes in the class newsgroup "On a completely
different note:  does anyone else pronounce the word "been" like they
pronounce the boy's name "Ben" rather than "bin?"  I have
been in a heated discussion about what is correct.  It seems that the
dictionary prefers "bin."  So why do I say it the other way?"  I don't
know if this is dialectal or not in the US.  Any answers?

 _____________________________________________________________________
bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ohiou.edu                      Ohio University / Athens
http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl         Ellis Hall 114c
tel: (740) 593-2783                     Office hours:
fax: (740) 593-2818                         MTThF 10:10-11 a.m.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 10:15:43 -0500
From:    Nicolet Berkey <Nicolet.L.Berkey-1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Minnesota-area dialect

I'm writing a paper on sentence-final "with," as in "We're going up north
this weekend; would you like to go with?"

Does anyone know where/if this has been documented in the past?  Any
comments/suggestions?

Thank you.

Nicolet Berkey
luhm0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tc.umn.edu
ESL M.A. program
U of MN

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 11:43:55 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Honest John

     In the new movie BULWORTH, Warren Beatty plays a senator who does a
remarkable thing--he tells the truth.
     SAFIRE'S NEW POLITICAL DICTIONARY has an entry for "honest graft," but
that's it as far as honesty goes.
      The first citation for "Honest Abe Lincoln" dates from 1858 in the DA.
      The RHHDAS dates "honest John" (an honest man) from 1884, although there
is a Washington Irving citation from 1807 that's noted.  The complete and
utter truth is "honest-to-God" or "honest-to-John."  Of interest also is the
entry for "honest Injun," which has a first citation from 1851.
       This is from the PITTSFIELD SUN (MA), 21 October 1841, pg. 2, col. 4:

THE PROMISES OF JOHN DAVIS.
      The whigs call their candidate "_honest_ John."  So Othello called Iago
"honest, _honest_ Iago."  The working-men remember "_honest_ John's" speech on
high wages in Congress.  He told them the sub-treasury was the sole cause of
low wages.  Only put the whigs in power and they would repeal it, and up wages
would go!
      The working-men believed him, put the whigs in, the sub-treasury was
repealed, and where are "honest John's" high wages?  No where.  The workmen
find their wages cut down, their labor lengthened; it costs them more to live;
they get less for their labor, and _instead of ten hours, work from twelve to
fifteen, and are forbidden to open a letter or read a newspaper, while under
the ye of their task-master's at the Springfield armory!_  This is the result
of "honest John's" promises to them to get their votes.
      The motto under which "honest John" was chosen Governor last year,
was--"ROAST BEEF AND TWO DOLLARS A DAY."  (I'd vote for the vegetarian
candidate--ed.)  The working-men who were deceived by this, get neither, and
are paid less and work more, than under the sub-treasury administration.  We
must just ask "_honest_ John" in his own words, which he used to sneer at Mr.
Van Buren in his last Governor's Message:
     "What have become of all your fair promises?  Wages have been lowered,
and where is the prosperity you promised us?  Where the golden era of
fruition?  _The aching eyes of many are still stretched in vain after it,
while it recedes like the mirage of the desert before the weary traveller_."
     That's a fact, "honest John," you never prophecied truer.  When are the
working-men to have that "_roast beef and two dollars a day_" you promised
them, if they would make you Governor?--_Boston Post_.

     "Roast beef and two dollars a day" is regrettably not recorded in most
places, but non-Oprahs can check out SAFIRE'S entry for "chicken in every
pot."

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 10:40:17 -0500
From:    KRISTEN BRANSCUM <branskr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>
Subject: Togie

I am writing a paper on the differnt words people in the U.S. have for
their winter hat.  The origin of calling it toboggan is because when
people ride toboggans, it's winter and they have to wear this knit hat to
keep warm.  But, I have been getting names such as togie, skull hat, and
stocking hat and was wondering if there was a particular region or race
that these words developed from.  Thanks for any help you can give.


Kristen Branscum
Auburn University

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 11:54:49 EDT
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: cod fax

In a message dated 5/7/98 8:53:51 AM, downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU wrote:

<<"Cod" (noun and verb) is a long-standing UK term for a trick or various
other kinds of insincerity; the word appears in Joyce's work from the early
20th century.>>

I'm sure COD appears in Shakespeare in this sense (TWELFTH NIGHT maybe?)

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 11:59:15 -0400
From:    Robert Ness <ness[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU>
Subject: <No subject given>

A student of mine writes the following;"She is one of, if not thee main
character in the novel." The mispelling of the definite pronoun arises
from its stressed pronounciation, right? What do you make of this? Is the
stressed THE a survival of the Old English instrumental? I seem to recall
that the slightly stressed forms in "the sooner, the better" are similarly
explained, though I cannot imagine what instrumentality is involved.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 10:44:08 CDT
From:    Ellen Johnson <Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WKU.EDU>
Subject: MISC

     Thanks for the example of "go with" as a construction that is standard
     in some regions and considered just plain bizarre in others.  My
     students know that Southernisms like "y'all" are considered
     nonstandard in other contexts (in fact, I am having a hard time
     convincing them that it IS standard in the South).  But their
     linguistic insecurity is such that they didn't realize other places
     have comparable constructions (needs washed is another we discuss).
     By the way, a Montana native says "go with" is the norm for her.

     As for Southern Eng., the deletion of "to" in the example someone
     cited sounds totally foreign to me.  It is not a feature of So. Eng.
     But been/bin/Ben are all the same to me.

     Ellen
     ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu
     http://www.wku.edu/~ejohnson/

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 09:19:30 -0700
From:    "A. Maberry" <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: MISC

On Thu, 7 May 1998, Ellen Johnson wrote:

>      But been/bin/Ben are all the same to me.
>
For me, been/bin are the same, but not Ben.

Allen
maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 12:29:57 -0400
From:    Alan Baragona <baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU>
Subject: Re: cod fax

At 11:54 AM 5/7/98 EDT, RonButters wrote:
>In a message dated 5/7/98 8:53:51 AM, downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU wrote:
>
><<"Cod" (noun and verb) is a long-standing UK term for a trick or various
>other kinds of insincerity; the word appears in Joyce's work from the early
>20th century.>>
>
>I'm sure COD appears in Shakespeare in this sense (TWELFTH NIGHT maybe?)
>

Apparently not.  I don't have a concordance handy, but these are the only
citations for "cod" that show up in the MIT Shakespeare search engine:

OTHELLO    Act 2, Scene 1

To change the cod's head for the salmon's tail; [text]

KING LEAR Act 3, Scene 2

The cod-piece that will house [text]

Marry, here's grace and a cod-piece; that's a wise
=========================================

Matty Farrow's search site in Australia turns up only the Lear citations.

OED2's earliest citation for "cod" as a verb meaning to trick is 1873:

cod, v.3 slang or dial. [perh. f. cod sb.5 in sense `fool'.] trans. `To hoax, to
take a "rise" out of' (Slang Dict. 1873); to humbug, impose upon. Also intr., to
play a joke, to `kid', to sham; to burlesque (see also quot. 1933). So

'codding vbl. sb.

    1884 Cheshire Gloss., Coddin, humbugging. `Tha'st only coddin me
    as tha allus does; tha'l none tay me to see th' fair.'

As a noun there is

cod, sb.6 dial. [perh. f. cod v.3] (See quot.)

    1887 S. Cheshire Folk-sp., Cod, a humbug, imposition..`That
    hoss-duty was a regilar cod of a thing.'

and

2. A joke; a hoax, leg-pull; a parody, a `take-off'. (See also E.D.D. sb.5) Also
attrib. or quasi-adj., parodying, burlesque; `mock'.

    1905 Sketch LI. 472/2 Says he: `Is that an absolute bargain-no cod?'
    Says she: `I don't know what the fish has to do with it, but I am
    perfectly sincere.'

So 1873 is the earliest date the OED2 has for this meaning.

AB

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 19:05:11 +0200
From:    David Sutcliffe <david.sutcliffe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TRAD.UPF.ES>
Subject: Re: cod fax

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Might  _cod_  be related in some way to _kid_ ?
(I don't think many words show this particular alternation across
dialects).

David Sutcliffe
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At 11:54 AM 5/7/98 EDT, RonButters wrote:
>In a message dated 5/7/98 8:53:51 AM, downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU wrote:
>
><<"Cod" (noun and verb) is a long-standing UK term for a trick or various
>other kinds of insincerity; the word appears in Joyce's work from the early
>20th century.>>
>
>I'm sure COD appears in Shakespeare in this sense (TWELFTH NIGHT maybe?)
>

Apparently not.  I don't have a concordance handy, but these are the only
citations for "cod" that show up in the MIT Shakespeare search engine:

OTHELLO    Act 2, Scene 1

To change the cod's head for the salmon's tail; [text]

KING LEAR Act 3, Scene 2

The cod-piece that will house [text]

Marry, here's grace and a cod-piece; that's a wise
=========================================

Matty Farrow's search site in Australia turns up only the Lear citations.

OED2's earliest citation for "cod" as a verb meaning to trick is 1873:

cod, v.3 slang or dial. [perh. f. cod sb.5 in sense `fool'.] trans. `To hoax, to
take a "rise" out of' (Slang Dict. 1873); to humbug, impose upon. Also intr., to
play a joke, to `kid', to sham; to burlesque (see also quot. 1933). So

'codding vbl. sb.

    1884 Cheshire Gloss., Coddin, humbugging. `Tha'st only coddin me
    as tha allus does; tha'l none tay me to see th' fair.'

As a noun there is

cod, sb.6 dial. [perh. f. cod v.3] (See quot.)

    1887 S. Cheshire Folk-sp., Cod, a humbug, imposition..`That
    hoss-duty was a regilar cod of a thing.'

and

2. A joke; a hoax, leg-pull; a parody, a `take-off'. (See also E.D.D. sb.5) Also
attrib. or quasi-adj., parodying, burlesque; `mock'.

    1905 Sketch LI. 472/2 Says he: `Is that an absolute bargain-no cod?'
    Says she: `I don't know what the fish has to do with it, but I am
    perfectly sincere.'

So 1873 is the earliest date the OED2 has for this meaning.

AB
--openmail-part-01258585-00000002--

--openmail-part-01258585-00000001--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 13:28:46 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: <No subject given>

At 11:59 AM -0400 5/7/98, Robert Ness wrote:
>A student of mine writes the following;"She is one of, if not thee main
>character in the novel." The mispelling of the definite pronoun arises
>from its stressed pronounciation, right? What do you make of this? Is the
>stressed THE a survival of the Old English instrumental? I seem to recall
>that the slightly stressed forms in "the sooner, the better" are similarly
>explained, though I cannot imagine what instrumentality is involved.

I think there are a number of issues involved here.  The stressed THE in
such contexts as

 It's A [ey] reason, if not THE [thi:] reason, she left him.
 That's ONE of the reasons, {if not/in fact} THE reason, she left him.
 That's one of the worst, if not THE worst, thing(s) you could have done.
 That's not just ONE of the problems, it's THE problem with your proposal.

is stressed because it's contrastive within this scalar environment, the
same environment we have in "some if not all", "warm if not hot", etc., in
which the upper-bounding implicature ("some" suggesting not all, "warm" not
hot, "a so-and-so" not the unique so-and-so) is suspended or cancelled.
When THE is stressed (or, of course, when it precedes a vowel-initial
word), it typically rhymes with 'bee', more or less homophonous with the
archaic second-person pronoun, whence presumably your student's nonce
spelling.  (Incidentally, your student also uses a non-standard form of the
scalar-implicature-cancelling frame, blending 'one of the main characters,
if not THE main character, in the novel' with 'a, if not THE, main
character in the novel'.  This is frequently encountered, and as seen in
the third example above, number is a recurring problem in the a-if-not-the
sentences.)
    I don't see any evidence for assuming the persistence of the Old
English instrumental or anything else that abstruse.  The syntax doesn't
seem particularly instrumental, anyway. I thought the "the" of the
correlative construction "the sooner the better" was standardly classed as
'adverbial "the"'.  Again, there's no obvious connection with the
contrastive scalar "the" in the example under consideration.  Indeed, the
adverbial "the" is NOT stressable, and (since it precedes a consonant here)
is NOT pronounced "thee" [thi:], but rather "thuh", with a schwa.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 14:21:32 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: 50 Years of Language Change

           The following appeared in LINGUIST List #9.658
                    Please do NOT reply to me.
       Direct any responses directly to the poster
                at the address given in the post.
           --------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 00:11:03 +0000
From: formichelli <formichelli[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tp.net>
Subject: 50 Years of Language Change


Greetings, Linguists--

The Linguist List was a great help to me as a grad student of Slavic
Linguistics at UC Berkeley.

Now I write magazine articles for a living, and have come up with a
linguistics-based idea I'd like to propose to certain magazines.

Shakespeare's language is barely comprehensible to most of us now--and
he wrote only 400 years ago!  That made me think that discernible
changes to our language must happen even in our own lifetime.

I'd like to propose an article on the changes that have occurred in our
lifetimes--say, the last 50 years.  I'll be querying the article to
popular culture and science magazines, so I'd like to hear from
linguists about what noticeable changes have occurred in that time
period--whether phonetic, semantic or syntactic.  Spelling and slang are
also interesting, but to a lesser degree.  If a magazine accepts the
story, I might also like to do interviews.

If you'd like to share your thoughts, please send
them to me directly at linda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tp.net.

Thanks for your help!

Linda Formichelli

-
Linda Formichelli, Freelance Writer
http://www.tp.net/tp/users/formichelli
Tel/Fax: 508-226-6668

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 14:24:59 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: Call: Interdisciplinary Conference

         The following appeared in LINGUIST List #9.660
                Please do NOT reply to me, but
  direct any responses directly to the address given below.
           --------------------------------------------

- ---------- Call for Papers ----------

Announcing Our 3rd Annual Interdisciplinary Conference
BORDER SURJECTS 3: (Dis)locations of Culture
October 8-10, 1988, ay ILLinois State University, Normal IL


Papers and Presentations Invited on the Following Topics:
* The Politics of Official Language Policy
* The Ebonics Controversy
* Immigration History and Language Policy in the U.S and Other Countries
* The threat to other dialects and ethnic groups to learn the surrounding
majority language in the U.S. and Other Countries.
* Social and  political pressures on bilingualism including the ramifications
for such programs as bilingual education


The conference welcomes diverse and creative interpretations of its topics.

Send abstracts proposals for papers ans panels (250 words) to:

Ron Strickland
English Department
Illinois State University
Normal IL 61790-4240
e-mail: rlstrick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ilstu.edu

Please send abstracts and proposals via email if possible.
Dealine for abstracts and proposals: June 30, 1998

For more information, contact Ron Strickland:

ph: 309-438-7907
email: rlstrick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ilstu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 16:25:10 -0500
From:    Thomas Klein <kleint[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU>
Subject: Guy Bailey's email address?

Hello everybody:

Does anybody have Guy Bailey's current email address? I tried
gbailey[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccmail.nevada.edu , but that one doesn't work.

Thanks very much!

Cheers,

Thomas Klein


Visiting Assistant Professor
Georgetown University
Dept. of Linguistics
Washington, DC 20057

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 13:38:05 -0700
From:    "A. Vine" <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Ten green bottles

One little side note on "Ten green bottles" vs. "99 bottles of beer on
the wall" - the tunes are a bit different.  Upon asking my English
source about "Ten green bottles", he sang it for me.  Not as rollicking
as the American tune, IMO.  So I asked him in what situation he would
sing it:  at a football game, in a pub?  To which he replied, "On long,
boring coach trips when there's bugger-all else to do."

Andrea
--
--------------------
bite the wax tadpole

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 17:21:23 -0400
From:    Daniel Ezra Johnson <daniel.e.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: your mail

On Thu, 7 May 1998, Larry Horn wrote:

> When THE is stressed (or, of course, when it precedes a vowel-initial
> word), it typically rhymes with 'bee'

I was struck the other month by a New Jersey speaker's strong reaction
against the pronunciation 'thee' before vowels. She uses 'thuh' in all
positions and even commented, "It's not spelled t-h-e-e".

In such phrases ('the apple', 'the only'), there must be some correlation
between schwa vs. 'ee', on the one hand, and the use of a semivowel --
some type of 'y' glide -- versus a glottal stop to begin the
'vowel-initial' word.

DEJ

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 18:05:20 -0400
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: been: Ben vs. bin

'Ben' [bEn] is the norm in (again) Minnesota, and probably as far east as
Chicago, according to my many polled students.  I've lived out of Minnesota
for 30+ years now, so I noticed the change from my childhood [bIn] to [bEn]
first in Garrison Keillor: remember his opening song, "I've ben gone so
long ...?  Then I started hearing it in my Mpls. brother, and then my
rural-area nieces, and on and on.  My sister (in Winona, MN) doesn't have
[bEn], so I suspect it started in the Minneapolis area or northward and has
been spreading outward.  Any other thoughts on this spread?  BTW, I discuss
it in my Soclx class as another vowel shift, from British tense [i] to lax
[I] to lowered lax [E]--something like the [e] to [E] (noted by Bergdahl)
to [ae] in "available" that I asked about the other day.  I recall Reagan's
similar lowering in [kael[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fornya] ([E] for me); is this common on the West
Coast?


At 10:53 AM 5/7/98 +0000, you wrote:
>A student of mine writes in the class newsgroup "On a completely
>different note:  does anyone else pronounce the word "been" like they
>pronounce the boy's name "Ben" rather than "bin?"  I have
>been in a heated discussion about what is correct.  It seems that the
>dictionary prefers "bin."  So why do I say it the other way?"  I don't
>know if this is dialectal or not in the US.  Any answers?
>
> _____________________________________________________________________
>bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ohiou.edu                      Ohio University / Athens
>http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl         Ellis Hall 114c
>tel: (740) 593-2783                     Office hours:
>fax: (740) 593-2818                         MTThF 10:10-11 a.m.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 18:24:52 -0400
From:    Wendalyn Nichols <wnichols[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RANDOMHOUSE.COM>
Subject: Re: Ten green bottles

Or on a fairly short coach trip, if the back of the coach is full of
completely legless lager louts singing in their best estuary English, "An'
if one green bo'oh should acciden'ly fall..."  Not an experience I want to
repeat!




"A. Vine" <avine [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] ENG.SUN.COM> on 05/07/98 04:38:05 PM

Please respond to American Dialect Society <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

To:   ADS-L [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
cc:    (bcc: Wendalyn Nichols/Trade/RandomHouse)
Subject:  Ten green bottles




One little side note on "Ten green bottles" vs. "99 bottles of beer on
the wall" - the tunes are a bit different.  Upon asking my English
source about "Ten green bottles", he sang it for me.  Not as rollicking
as the American tune, IMO.  So I asked him in what situation he would
sing it:  at a football game, in a pub?  To which he replied, "On long,
boring coach trips when there's bugger-all else to do."

Andrea
--
--------------------
bite the wax tadpole

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 6 May 1998 to 7 May 1998
**********************************************
There are 14 messages totalling 657 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Fwd: Buffalo Chicken Wings!!! (2)
  2. crryhe, marmottao (2)
  3. crryhe, marmottao revisited
  4. "Size Does Matter" (GODZILLA ads)
  5. Lobby (3)
  6. crryhe
  7. California (was: Ben vs. bin) (2)
  8. knitted cap -- togie, etc.
  9. been: Ben vs. bin

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 May 1998 00:36:16 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: Buffalo Chicken Wings!!!

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--part0_894861376_boundary
Content-ID: <0_894861376[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

     "Buffalo Chicken Wings" is not in DARE.  Soukhanov's (and Flexner's)
SPEAKING FREELY (1997) states on page 172:

_Food Fact_
Buffalo wings--fried chicken wings with hot sauce and blue cheese
dressing--are named for Buffalo, New York.

     No date?  No creator?  No restaurant?
     When I got this "Buffalo chicken wings!!" e-mail just now from the
supposed creator of it, I was interested.  Soukhanov's book has my "hot dog"
stuff on page 171.
     But then I thought--five dollars?  To a "Buffalo" guy named "John"--in
Florida?  Am I crazy??
     I checked out www.buffalowings.com on the web, and it's free.  I sent
them an e-mail for more info.
     This "ignore 100% of AOL and internet ads" policy I have is there for a
reason.

--part0_894861376_boundary
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Date: Sun, 10 May 1998 20:03:17 -0700
To: gaune66[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]xgen.net
From: gaune66[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]xgen.net (Buffalo...)
Comments: Authenticated sender is <gaune66[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]xgen.net>
Subject: Buffalo Chicken Wings!!!
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Dear Friend,

My name is John,  I lived in Buffalo NY most of  my life, and have been making
the famous wings for over 20 years. Now, I would like to share with you, the
real story how the wings were invented, along with my original Buffalo Chicken
Wing recipe. I have won contests and cookoffs around the country with my wing
recipe, and know you will enjoy them to. Dont wait, order today, and start
making some of the best wings on the planet!

You'll get the real story, plus my famous recipe by simply sending $5.00 cash
or money order to:
                                                   Wings
                                                   PO Box 17834
                                                  Jacksonville, FL 32245-7834

PS;   Dont forget to include your e-mail address, or, a sase.

Enjoy,

John


--part0_894861376_boundary--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 May 1998 00:12:13 -0500
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: crryhe, marmottao

Daniel Long wrote:
>
> I am working on the translation of a 19th English text about the Bonin
> Islands in the Pacific.

   <<Snip, to save bandwidth; what was here is a list of plant and
animal species that includes "crryhe" and "marmottao">>

> Has anyone ever heard of "crryhe" or "marmottao"?  I can't find them in
> dictionaries.   The spelling of the former looks very odd, but I can't
> figure out what kind of typo this could be.

Could "crryhe" simply be a transposition of "cherry"?  That, in turn,
suggests that the last six letters of the other "word" are a
transposition of "tomato".  My urge to use or account for all the
evidence leaves me dissatisfied with this solution, because of those
leftover letters "mar".

You suggest the possibility of a typo in "crryhe"; what is the frequency
of possible typos in other parts of the text?  Do they show any pattern
or consistency?

If I really were taking on a detective role wholeheartedly, I guess the
next thing I'd want to know is something about how the type was set.  If
the text was set by Linotype, for example, I'd haul out a keyboard chart
and look for expectable errors.  (That is, the equivalent of my typing o
for p on this standard qwerty keyboard, or the somewhat less likely
chance of my typing f for r.  Keyboard layout on a standard Linotype is
quite different from the familiar qwerty, and there were non-standard
layouts as well.  The best-known Linotype arrangement has etaoinshrdlu
on a single line.  That, by the way, is pretty close to a list, in
descending order, of the frequency of use of these letters in normal
English text.  I use it as a mnemonic when deciphering simple coded
messages even though it is not totally accurate.)

Handset type would tend toward quite different substitutions, based on
the appearance of the letters themselves rather than their placement on
a keyboard.  (Handset type carries the additional complication that the
one who does the typesetting is actually looking at the letters upside
down and backwards as they get placed in the stick.)

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 May 1998 22:57:35 -0700
From:    Bill King <wfking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOTNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Buffalo Chicken Wings!!!

--------------55D6CDA726E17E55E8BDBE31
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Please!   This is well documented.

The creator of Buffalo Wings died a year or two ago.  The information
was available via AP etc. Hellll-llllooooohhh?


The information is available nationwide.

--------------55D6CDA726E17E55E8BDBE31
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
<FONT FACE="Courier New,Courier">Please!&nbsp;&nbsp; This is well documented.</FONT><FONT FACE="Courier New,Courier"></FONT>

<P><FONT FACE="Courier New,Courier">The creator of Buffalo Wings died a
year or two ago.&nbsp; The information was available via AP etc. Hellll-llllooooohhh?</FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Courier New,Courier"></FONT>&nbsp;<FONT FACE="Courier New,Courier"></FONT>

<P><FONT FACE="Courier New,Courier">The information is available nationwide.</FONT></HTML>

--------------55D6CDA726E17E55E8BDBE31--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 May 1998 01:23:44 -0500
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: crryhe, marmottao revisited

Hypothesis:  some of the letters in "marmottao" are a transposition of
tomato.

Problem:  So what to do with the extra letters, "mar"?

Maybe I should have reprinted Danny Long's list, from that 19th century
English text about the Bonin Islands.  The placement of the mystery word
"marmottao" may be significant.  Here's the list:

> Discussing the plants and animals of the island, the text reads "there
> are on the Islands, wild plum, crryhe, orange, laurel, juniper and box
> wood tree, sandal wood, marmottao, wild cactus, curry plant, wild sage
> and celery."

"crryhe" appears in the context of fruit trees, which tends to confirm
the reading "cherry".

Some of the neighbors of "marmottao" fall in the class of seasonings.
(I don't know from this excerpt just which "wild cactus" is meant here,
but some of the cacti I know from Southwestern U.S. and Mexico are used
to add flavor in cooking.) Could the "mar" segment be a typographically
elided "marjoram"?

For my suggested reading of "marjoram, tomato" to be a correct
reconstruction of the original before mangling by some typesetting
process requires two different kinds of errors to have taken place at
the same point: elision of five letters and the scrambling of perhaps
five more.

That's the sort of thing you might expect with handset type if the
typesetter got sloppy moving letters into their final placement.  It's
what could happen if the typesetter dropped the handheld stick which
first receives the type as it is removewd from its job case.  It
couldn't happen that way with the Linotype, because it casts a whole
line of type at one time.  (Mergenthaler's Linotype became available
commercially in 1884 or 1885.  For most of the 19th century, type was
set by hand.)

My suggested solution may verge on a "just so story".  What tempts me to
accept the possibility is what I have noticed in my own keyboarding.  I
can go for many lines, up to whole pages, with no errors at all, but
once I make one typo I am very likely to make another (or several) in
direct succession to the first.

And, of course, I could be dead wrong in taking this line at all.

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

P.S.:  I used to set type by hand, over fifty years ago.  That was so
long ago that I've forgotten most of the vocabulary associated with the
process.  I can visualize the process step by step.  I see, in my mind's
eye, each of the tools and instruments that are used.  I could even do a
rough sketch of most of them, I think.  I just can't remember what the
damned things are called!  (At this late date, there is no way I could
remember such details as the full layout of, e.g., the California job
case, one of the standard ways of storing the letters of a single
font).  All of which is a neat demonstration, for items of vocabulary,
of the dictum "use it or lose it".

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 May 1998 06:13:52 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: "Size Does Matter" (GODZILLA ads)

     New York City has been invaded by Godzilla penis jokes.
     On 42nd Street, they've knocked down many buildings to build new ones, in
keeping with Disney's LION KING presence.  No more "hookers."  No more sleaze.
And yet, when I walked there a few weeks ago to catch a bus at the Port
Authority, I saw a nearly block-long billboard advertisement at the
construction site.  It said something like:

HE'S BIGGER THAN THIS BILLBOARD WHICH TAKES UP AN ENTIRE BLOCK, OH BOY IS HE
BIG, HE'S REALLY, REALLY BIG, HE'S A BIG ONE.
Size Does Matter.

     So much for an improved 42nd Street.  And then, on a bus:

HIS  _____ IS AS BIG AS THIS BUS.
Size Does Matter.

      And on a taxi:

HIS _____ IS AS BIG AS THIS TAXI.
Size Does Matter.

     Yes, we get it.  Godzilla's big.
     But does a major film studio have to push its general release movie with
penis jokes?
     Who started "size does matter" anyway?  A date from hell?
     As I remember it, it was "size does matter" or "size matters" or "size
counts."  Most frequently, it was the negative "size doesn't matter."  Often,
I've heard people add "size doesn't matter, it's what you can do with it."
(What you can do with it?  What are we talking about, a Swiss army knife?)
     I haven't checked Nexis, but here's a Worldcat title search:

1997--DOES CLASS SIZE MATTER? by Wayne Sawyer.
1996--WHEN SIZE DOES MATTER: MEDIA COVERAGE OF RELIGION USING LEGALITY,
EVALUATION AND GROUP SIZE AS PREDICTORS OF PROMINENCE.
1995--DOES SIZE MATTER?: SAFE SUBORDINATED DEBT OF "TOO BIG TO FAIL" BANKS by
Jennifer W. Ray.
1994--HOW DOES SIZE OF SIBSHIP MATTER?: REVISITING FAMILY CONFIGURATION AND
THE EFFECT OF FAMILY BACKGROUND ON EDUCATIONAL ATTAINMENT by Hsiang-Hui Kuo.
1994--DOES FIRM SIZE MATTER?: EVIDENCE ON THE IMPACTS OF LIQUITIY CONSTRAINTS
ON FIRM INVESTMENT BEHAVIOUR IN GERMANY by David B. Audretsch.
1993--DID OFFICE MARKET SIZE MATTER IN THE 1980S? by Henry O. Pollakowski.
1993--BLACK AND HISPANIC COUNCIL REPRESENTATION: DOES COUNCIL SIZE MATTER? by
Nicholas O. Alozie.
1992--DOES SIBSIZE MATTER?: THE IMPLICATIONS OF FAMILY SIZE FOR CHILDREN'S
EDUCATION IN GHANA by Cynthia B. Lloyd.
1990--PROBLEM HOUSING ESTATES IN BRITAIN: DOES SIZE MATTER? by Marjorie Bulos.
1990--CORESIDENCE OF YOUNG ADULTS WITH THEIR PARENTS IN JAPAN: DO SIBSIZE AND
BIRTH ORDER MATTER? by Hiroshi Kojima.
1987--PRODUCTIVITY IN CITIES: DOES CITY SIZE MATTER? by Gerald A. Carlino.
1975--A MATTER OF SIZE by Harry Homewood.

     Periodical Abstracts goes to 1986 and has titles such as:

"Why the ultimate size of the world's population doesn't matter" by Lester C.
Thurow, TECHNOLOGY REVIEW, August/September 1986.
"Does penis size matter?" by Lesley Dormen, GLAMOUR, July 1992.
"Size does matter" (about penile enlargements) by Carol Saline, PHILADELPHIA
MAGAZINE, October 1992.
"THE SIZE OF MATTER: THE COSMOLOGICAL MILKSHAKE by Robert Ehrlich" reviewed by
Robert Matthews, NEW SCIENTIST, Spt. 17, 1994.
"Size does matter" by Allison Sarubin, WEIGHT WATCHERS MAGAZINE, January 1996.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
"RICH BITCH" (continued)

     One of my favorite VARIETY headlines is from November 15, 1989.  The
online summary is "English playwright David Hare has written a letter to Frank
Rich, theater critic for the 'New York Times,' assailing him for his bitter,
negative reviews."  The VARIETY headline is:  "RUFFLED HARE AIRS RICH BITCH."
     I remember the song "Rich Girl."  A computer check shows that Iggy Pop
did a song called "Rich Bitch."  The notes indicate "Rock Music 1971-1980" and
"The last ever Iggy and the Stooges show, Michigan Palace Detroit 73.74."
1973?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
BUFFALO WINGS (continued)

     A check of the web showed nothing else important, and usenet shows only
this, from rec.food.cooking, "Names: who & why," 4-8-98:

     "Why are _Buffalo Wings_ from beasts that can't do vertical take-
offs????"
     _Buffalo wings_ are those butter-and-pepper-sauce-covered poultry parts
that were born in 1964 at Frank and Teressa's Anchor Bar in Buffalo, N. Y.
_Wings_ FROM the town of _Buffalo_.  The Bellissamo family owns this treasure.

     John Ayto's A GOURMET'S GUIDE: FOOD & DRINK FROM A TO Z (1994) doesn't
have a "Buffalo Wings" entry.  Jay Jacobs's THE EATEN WORD (1995) states "So
named for their city of origin in New York state, where they were created at
the Anchor Bar."  Martha Barnette's LADYFINGERS & NUN'S TUMMIES (1997) states
they're "chicken wings, deep-fried and served with hot sauce and a blue-cheese
(sic) dressing.  They were invented in 1964 at the Anchor Bar in Buffalo, New
York, by owner Teressa Bellissimo..."
     Invented by Teressa or Frank?  Bellissimo or Bellissamo?  With cut celery
and bleu cheese or butter and pepper sauce?
     It may be "well-documented,"  but as I stated at the beginning of the
posting, it's not in DARE.  The secondary point is that this "John" is selling
bogus information on the web--the free web address I gave was of the Anchor
Bar.
     I guess the "Please!" was really a backlash for "hello" and other
postings.  It always happens when I post many antedates in a row.
     I guess I'll wait a few days before posting "oy gevalt."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 May 1998 06:14:18 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Lobby

     Evan Morris ("The Word Detective"/son of MORRIS DICTIONARY OF WORD AND
PHRASE ORIGINS authors) will have the word "lobby" in the next issue of his
column.  As a paying customer of the free column, I get an advanced copy.
This may be too late, but I've done work on the "lobby."
     As I've posted here before, my sister was told by a tour guide on a
Washington, D.C. trip that "lobby" comes from a hotel that President Lincoln
stayed at.  Evan Morris received the same false etymology, but the President
has been changed to President Grant.
     The Worldcat title search wasn't every helpful, but turned up these two:

1704--A STEP TO THE LOBBY.  This book (printed in London) has a "satire,
political" subject.  I haven't read it; it seems 100 years removed from
"lobby" as we know it.
1787--THE LOBBY LOUNGER by Charles Stuart.  This London play also probably has
nothing to do with our 19th-century political usage, but it antedates OED's
1803 "lobby-lounger" citation.

     NILES' REGISTER is on CD-ROM indexed from 1811-1849.  NILES' covered
national political news, so I expected it to have "lobby."  Indeed, it had
many good  citations:

February 4, 1832, pp. 409-410.
     "Lobby members" is used.  These would later be called "lobbyists."  OED's
first citation for "lobby member" is 1848.  "Lobby" is also used here:  "And
the delegates, on either side, have just about the same right to hold and
express opinions, in the 'lobby' or elsewhere, (except on the floor of the
senate), as the venerable senator himself."  It appears that "lobby" can be
taken literally.

July 21, 1832, pp. 381-2.
     The title for the story is "LOBBY MEMBERS."

July 28, 1832, pg. 388, col. 1.
    The one-paragraph story is titled "LOBBY MEMBERS."

August 4, 1838, pg. 368, col. 2.
    The one-paragraph story is titled "_Lobby services_."

     I can't at the moment find the copy of my first citation, which would be
volume 28, pg. 415.  This pushes "lobby" to the 1820s and is the second-oldest
citation.  OED's 1808 citation was taken from 1852 and needs to be re-checked
in full.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 May 1998 07:03:40 -0400
From:    Evan Morris <words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM>
Subject: Re: Lobby

Barry -- Your post concerning my column was unintentionally ambiguous, so I
just wanted to emphasize to folks here that, while I did recount it, I did
not fall for the Grant story.  The relevant paragraph of said column
(proving that I am not a total feeb) follows:

However, while Grant may indeed have haunted hotel lobbies,
the verb "to lobby" antedates his administration by many years.  The
first citation for the usage in the Oxford English Dictionary is from
1808.  Its exact derivation is unclear, though it seems certain that the
term refers to the lobby of a legislative assembly where the hired guns
of special interests traditionally gather to ply their trade.  "Lobbying"
as an idiom appears to be an American invention, although the usage
quickly spread to Britain and Canada.

--
Evan Morris
words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com
www.word-detective.com

-----Original Message-----
From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
Bapopik
Sent: Monday, May 11, 1998 6:14 AM
To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
Subject: Lobby


     Evan Morris ("The Word Detective"/son of MORRIS DICTIONARY OF WORD AND
PHRASE ORIGINS authors) will have the word "lobby" in the next issue of his
column.  As a paying customer of the free column, I get an advanced copy.
This may be too late, but I've done work on the "lobby."
     As I've posted here before, my sister was told by a tour guide on a
Washington, D.C. trip that "lobby" comes from a hotel that President Lincoln
stayed at.  Evan Morris received the same false etymology, but the President
has been changed to President Grant.
     The Worldcat title search wasn't every helpful, but turned up these
two:

1704--A STEP TO THE LOBBY.  This book (printed in London) has a "satire,
political" subject.  I haven't read it; it seems 100 years removed from
"lobby" as we know it.
1787--THE LOBBY LOUNGER by Charles Stuart.  This London play also probably
has
nothing to do with our 19th-century political usage, but it antedates OED's
1803 "lobby-lounger" citation.

     NILES' REGISTER is on CD-ROM indexed from 1811-1849.  NILES' covered
national political news, so I expected it to have "lobby."  Indeed, it had
many good  citations:

February 4, 1832, pp. 409-410.
     "Lobby members" is used.  These would later be called "lobbyists."
OED's
first citation for "lobby member" is 1848.  "Lobby" is also used here:  "And
the delegates, on either side, have just about the same right to hold and
express opinions, in the 'lobby' or elsewhere, (except on the floor of the
senate), as the venerable senator himself."  It appears that "lobby" can be
taken literally.

July 21, 1832, pp. 381-2.
     The title for the story is "LOBBY MEMBERS."

July 28, 1832, pg. 388, col. 1.
    The one-paragraph story is titled "LOBBY MEMBERS."

August 4, 1838, pg. 368, col. 2.
    The one-paragraph story is titled "_Lobby services_."

     I can't at the moment find the copy of my first citation, which would
be
volume 28, pg. 415.  This pushes "lobby" to the 1820s and is the
second-oldest
citation.  OED's 1808 citation was taken from 1852 and needs to be
re-checked
in full.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 May 1998 07:21:08 -0400
From:    Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Lobby

Barry,

Are you able to find any antedatings of _lobbyist_?  The OED has this from
1863.  The earliest I have found is in John Tuel's 1860 book, _Facts for
the People_.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
 Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
 Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 May 1998 13:48:13 +0200
From:    David Sutcliffe <david.sutcliffe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TRAD.UPF.ES>
Subject: Re: crryhe, marmottao

Regarding marmottao, if the original writer was being intentionally
cryptic, the solution tomato + mar suggests "sea tomato" or "tomate del
mar", which is a sea creature.

David Sutcliffe

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 May 1998 09:48:08 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: crryhe

>>>>>>>Daniel Long <dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP> writes: >>>>>>
        [...]
Has anyone ever heard of "crryhe" or "marmottao"?  I can't find them in dictionaries.   The spelling of the former looks
very odd, but I can't figure out what kind of typo this could be.

How about
        c rry he   <==  c he rry  ==  cherry    ?
It's a peculiar sort of transposition in the size of the units, but that's certainly a well-established kind of typo!

Do the Bonin Islands have cherry trees, or rather something that a European could plausibly call cherries? That would
certainly be evidence for this as a typo.

-- Mark

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 May 1998 09:36:13 +0000
From:    Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: California (was: Ben vs. bin)

On Fri, 8 May 1998 08:46:54 EDT RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM> wrote:

> In a message dated 5/7/98 6:20:07 PM, you wrote:
>
>>I recall Reagan's > similar lowering in [kael[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fornya] ([E] for me);
>>is this common on the > West Coast?>>
>
>
> Also, at least part of the reduction of [ae] in CALIFORNIA must be
> stress- related. The main stress is on the FOR, and [ae] will therefore
> tend to become less tense (or, rather, more lax). Still, the lowering
> of [ae] to [E] before liquids is not particularly new--cf. WHEELBARROW
> is typically [wilbEro].  By the way, Ronald Reagan was not a native
> Californian (there aren't that many 85-year-old native Californians in
> anyi case). The Midwest--most particularly, lower Illinois (where
> [wilbEro] is normal)--must take the blame for his spawning.

You mean RAISING (of [ae] to [E]), right?

I'm not a native Californian, but I grew up there and in Oregon, and
[kEl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fornja] is a new one on me.  Also, I don't think [ae] or [E]
before liquids is a matter of "new" or not, but a matter of geography.
I don't think anyone from the West Coast would have the sequence [aer]
in their speech. The neutralization of the [E]-[ae] contrast in West
Coast speech occurs only before [r], however, not before [l].  I
wouldn't say with certainty that nobody from the West Coast ever uses
[E] in "California," but if anyone does, it must indeed be a pretty new
development, and to my knowledge it hasn't reached Oregon.

Peter

----------------------
Peter A. McGraw
Linfield College
McMinnville, Oregon
pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linfield.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 May 1998 21:40:22 EDT
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: California (was: Ben vs. bin)

In a message dated 5/11/98 1:18:10 PM, <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linfield.edu> wrote:

<<You mean RAISING (of [ae] to [E]), right?>>

Yes, right, my baaaaad. Or should I say, I've made my bad and now I shall lie
in it?

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 May 1998 22:54:54 EDT
From:    Dfcoye <Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: knitted cap -- togie, etc.

I think a lot of people are confused by the double meaning of toboggan.   In
most parts of the US it's now understood as a runner-less sliding implement
with a curved-up front, usually long enough for three or more to sit on.   But
it's also a type of winter hat, knitted with a long point (down to your
shoulders).  Still used in Ohio, and some parts of upstate NY at least.

Dale Coye
The College of NJ

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 May 1998 22:55:13 EDT
From:    Dfcoye <Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: been: Ben vs. bin

This point was part of a survey I did (American Speech 69.3, 1994) of
Princeton freshmen.   Because of the merger before nasals Ron mentioned you
have to screen for that first (this gets rid of much of the South and Indiana,
and some Southern Californians).  I then found that BEN was the pronunciation
of choice in the Great Lakes region and the Northwest, with more additional
support found in New England and Northern California.   As was pointed out you
have to ask it in an emphatic position (How've you been?)--  I think your
student is right, BEN is under-reported in dictionaries, but some include it.
I think.  Believe it or not I also found some people using /i:/- a small
percentage scattered around.

Dale Coye
The College of New Jersey

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 10 May 1998 to 11 May 1998
************************************************
There are 29 messages totalling 945 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Beijing /j/ (17)
  2. Viagra; Hopefully; Lobby; Covered Wagon; Peace Pipe; Valedictory; et al.
  3. been: Ben vs. bin
  4. Viagra
  5. hearn
  6. Oz Catch Phrase in the making
  7. Missourianisms
  8. CaRIBbean (was Beijing /j/) (2)
  9. nativizing pronunciations
 10. theorizing on pronunciation
 11. nativisms
 12. Hair Cut

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 00:14:49 -0500
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beijing /j/

>Does anyone know why the j in Beijing is frequently pronounced as if French?
>The Mandarin pronunciation is clearly like a "regular" English j, and the
>switch from Peking happened recently enough that it shouldn't have gotten
>mixed up.

For the same reason people say 'machete' and 'Chicano' as if they were
French words.  Also the -ch- in 'Appalachian', said like 'appelation'.  And
some other words I can't think of at the moment.  Radio and TV announcers
seem to have a rule that says "when in doubt, assume French origin."  But,
when in doubt, -ei- is treated as if it were German.  Thirty or so years
ago, before news people knew that Brunei existed, I knew someone from
there.  He said it 'bru-nay'.  Now we just hear 'bru-nigh'.

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 01:25:01 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Viagra; Hopefully; Lobby; Covered Wagon; Peace Pipe; Valedictory; et
         al.

VIAGRA

      Is it VIE-agra or VEE-agra?
      I've heard both, and it should be documented in "Among the New Words."
      Think "via."  Which is it?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
HOPEFULLY

      At least two ADSers were searching "hopefully."
     The word was missing from the three CD-ROMs (1690-1849) that I checked.
      "Hopefully" was probably popularized by some FDR speech in 1931 or 1932,
but here are some others that Fred Shapiro may or may not have:

1708--CORDERIUS AMERICUS: AN ESSAY UPON THE GOOD EDUCATION OF CHILDREN AND
WHAT MAY HOPEFULLY BE ATTEMPTED, FOR THE HOPE OF THE FLOCK; IN A FUNERAL
SERMON UPON MR. EZEKIAL CHEEVER, THE ANCIENT AND HONOURABLE MASTER OF THE FREE
SCHOOL IN BOSTON...; WITH AN ELEGY AND AN EPITAPH UPON HIM by Cotton Mather
(1663-1728), printed by John Allen, for Nicholas Boone, published at Boston.
1734--ACCOUNT OF ABIGAIL HITCHINSON, A YOUNG WOMAN HOPEFULLY CONVERTED AT
NORTHAMPTON, MASS. by Jonathan Edwards (1703-1758), published by the American
Tract Society at New-York.
1867--HOPEFULLY WAITING AND OTHER VERSES by Anson D. F. Randolph, published by
C. Scribner and Co., New York.
1905--THE ADMIRABLE MIRANDA; WRITTEN FOR THE HOPEFULLY WELL AFFECTED CLUB by
Patty Lee Clark, published by author at Westfield, Mass.
1919--THROUGH THE COGS INCOG, BEING RHYTIMIZED RAMBLINGS FROM THE RAVINGS OF
PVT. DOUGHBOY, 41344, JOHN W. (CASUAL), AS GLEEFULLY GIBBERED AFTER PVT.
DOUGHBOY HAD EMERGED FROM "THE MILL" AT THE BORDEAUX EMBARKATION CAMP AND
HOPEFULLY AWAITED A SHIP FOR HOME by Addison N. Clark, published at Brodeaux,
France.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
LOBBY

    The "lobby" citation I misplaced was NILES' REGISTER, 27 August 1825, vol.
28, pg. 415, col. 2:

     _The lobby._  The editor of the Bridgetown, (New Jersey), Whig has been
sued to obtain $5,000 damages, by Garret D. Wall, esq. whom, it seems, he had
charged with some improper practices as a _lobby-member_ of the legislature of
that state.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
COVERED WAGON; PEACE PIPE; VALEDICTORY

     The new "Performing Arts in Colonial American Newspapers 1690-1783" CD-
ROM has been very helpful, resulting in several antedates.
     AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS has "covered wagon" as the word-of-the-year for
1745.  "Cover'd waggon" is in the Boston News Letter, 2-9 February 1708.
     "Peace pipe" is AISMW's 1761 word-of-the-year, but the 1 October 1751
Boston Gazette talks about the Cherrokee nation, stating "they join'd hands
and smok'd the pipe of peace together."
     AISMW notes has "valedictorian" as the word-of-the-year for 1759.  It's
stated that Harvard College gave us this term, and "Twenty years later, there
is a record of a valedictory oration at the College of New Jersey in
Princeton...."  Two newspapers in July 1765 note of a "valedictory
oration"--at Harvard.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
GIRL FRIDAY

     I couldn't find "girl/gal/guy Friday" in the RHHDAS, and Christine
Ammer's AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF IDIOMS states on page 247 that the
expression _girl Friday_ "gained currency through a motion picture starring
Cary Grant and Rosalind Russell, _His Girl Friday_ (1940)."
    I found it in a Popeye cartoon, NEW YORK EVENING JOURNAL, 3 September
1935, titled "His Girl, Friday."  (I was, of course, looking through the
funnies for Yiddish expressions.  No matter.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
"YANKEES" AND "BRONX BOMBERS" (continued)

     In today's New York Times, 12 May 1998, pg. A18, col. 3, there are
several letters-to-the-editor about the New York Yankees.  One letter is
titled "Buy the Name."
     This letter was surely published to make me go absolutely crazy.
     Attached to my _rejected_ letter about the meaning of "New York Yankees"
and "Bronx Bombers" (posted here) was a letter from author Lawrence Ritter,
stating that he would include this material in any forthcoming edition of the
ENCYCLOPEDIA OF NEW YORK CITY.
     And the Times had no space!
     I'd jump out a window, but it's not like end-of-the-world stuff--like if
someone told me SEINFELD was going off the air tomorrow.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 02:31:35 -0500
From:    Buchmann <buchmann[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Re: been: Ben vs. bin

In the South the difference
in vowel sound is pretty
well opaque to a native speaker:
10 = tin/ten;
been = bin/ben;
wren = wren/wrin;
pen/pin = pin/pen;
etc., etc., etc.

I used to confuse a friend in regular linguistics
when I would refer to our mutual friend "Len."
My friend [of the first part] would always ask
[in genuine puzzlement - as in chocolate] "Who's
Lynn?"

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 08:05:40 -0400
From:    David Bergdahl <bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beijing /j/

On Wed, 13 May 1998, Donald M. Lance wrote:

> >Does anyone know why the j in Beijing is frequently pronounced as if French?
> >The Mandarin pronunciation is clearly like a "regular" English j, and the
> >switch from Peking happened recently enough that it shouldn't have gotten
> >mixed up.
>
> For the same reason people say 'machete' and 'Chicano' as if they were
> French words.  Also the -ch- in 'Appalachian', said like 'appelation'.  And
> some other words I can't think of at the moment.  Radio and TV announcers
> seem to have a rule that says "when in doubt, assume French origin."  But,
> when in doubt, -ei- is treated as if it were German.  Thirty or so years
> ago, before news people knew that Brunei existed, I knew someone from
> there.  He said it 'bru-nay'.  Now we just hear 'bru-nigh'.

Another Germanizing example is sputnik (the first word of a 2-word
compound--somethink like sputnik zapata--meaning "fellow traveler"):
assuming that in October 1958 a technological advance must SOUND German
even if it were Russian, many of us said SHPOOTnick.

I think the general rule is, if it's foreign, damn! it sould SOUND
foreign. However, the opposite seems to be the case in {lingerie} which
doesn't get naturalized to linger-rhee but to LAHN-zher-Ray. . .with only
the middle syllable approximating the French lae~ zher ri.
=======================================================================
David Bergdahl          Ellis Hall 114c        Ohio University / Athens
Associate Prof/English  tel:  (740) 593-2783   fax:  (740) 593-2818
                        bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu
                    http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
=======================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 19:28:58 +0700
From:    Scott Paauw <spaauw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RAD.NET.ID>
Subject: Re: Beijing /j/

For some reason the fricative "zh" is used in place of the correct
affricate "dj" in a number of Asian words/place names: besides
"Beizhing," I have often come across "mah zhong" and "Tazh Mahal."  I
agree with those who have said this satisfies our need for foreign words
to "sound foreign."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 09:49:56 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: Viagra

Finally, something I can answer with authority:

It is "vie-AG-ruh."

About 18 months ago the advertising agency I worked for did marketing research for Pfizer, exploring the way Viagra would be received and perceived by the American public. I personally have heard marketing directors and other employees of Pfizer all pronounce it "vie-AG-ruh," which is what we do internally, as well.

All the jokes we were telling a year and a half ago are now in general circulation. I'm not saying we originated them, but is interesting how blue humor tends to run along the same lines in any group of people.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 10:14:56 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: hearn

>>>> David Sutcliffe <david.sutcliffe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TRAD.UPF.ES> >>>>
Any comments on _hearn_ past participle of "hear", as in (presumably rural or old-fashioned) "I ain't hearn tell of that".

<<<<

I have seed  ;-)\  this PP in dialog, and now in discussion here on ADS-L, but in neither context have I found a clue as to
whether the vowel is as in "hear" ([i] + rhotic schwa-glide) or "heard" (vocalic r).  Which is it?

-- Mark

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 10:20:41 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: Re: Beijing /j/

>>>> Andrew Moody <moody[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NUCBA.AC.JP> >>>>

There is also a tendency for English speakers to use sounds that are less nativizing when pronouncing place names,
especially foreign place names. This may be part of the reason for variation in names like "Colorado" were the "a"
(Color_a_do) may be pronounced as /ae/ (as in Am. Eng "bat") or /a/ (as in Am. Eng. "father").  If the fricative "j" (the
French sounding one) is less native than the affricative "j" (the "regular" English one), then the French-sounding
pronunciation may be a way to make Beijing sound more foreign and exotic.

<<<

I've seen discussion of this phenomenon before, but I can't remember a citation. The example I recall was in Viennese(?)
German, where the "-on" of "Telephon" was pronounced as nasalized C (C = turned c), as if it were French, rather than
the standard German [o:n]. The nasal pron is not a loan from French because the Fr pron is [Cn], reflected in the Fr
spelling "-phone".

-- Mark

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 10:30:28 EDT
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Beijing /j/

In a message dated 5/13/98 8:26:51 AM, spaauw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RAD.NET.ID wrote:

<<For some reason the fricative "zh" is used in place of the correct
affricate "dj" in a number of Asian words/place names: besides
"Beizhing," I have often come across "mah zhong" and "Tazh Mahal."  I
agree with those who have said this satisfies our need for foreign words
to "sound foreign.">>

I agree. But I'd like to add that (zh) is a rather marginal phoneme in
English, having virtually merged for many speakers with (dzh)--and pronounced
invariably (dzh). This adds to the sense of foreignness of (zh). I pronounce
<garage> with (zh) not (dzh), but I had to learn to do so in college. All my
brothers and their wives say (garadzh).

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 11:27:56 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beijing /j/

At 12:14 AM -0500 5/13/98, Donald M. Lance wrote:
>>Does anyone know why the j in Beijing is frequently pronounced as if French?
>>The Mandarin pronunciation is clearly like a "regular" English j, and the
>>switch from Peking happened recently enough that it shouldn't have gotten
>>mixed up.
>
>For the same reason people say 'machete' and 'Chicano' as if they were
>French words.  Also the -ch- in 'Appalachian', said like 'appelation'.  And
>some other words I can't think of at the moment.  Radio and TV announcers
>seem to have a rule that says "when in doubt, assume French origin."  But,
>when in doubt, -ei- is treated as if it were German.  Thirty or so years
>ago, before news people knew that Brunei existed, I knew someone from
>there.  He said it 'bru-nay'.  Now we just hear 'bru-nigh'.
>
>DMLance
Clearly, there's a real phenomenon of generalized "foreign pronunciation"
that may well encompass the [zh] pronunciation of Beijing.  But I'm not
sure all the above fit under that category.  I've usually heard "Chicano"
with a Spanish affricate rather than a French fricative, but I think
there's also a phonological process whereby a number of words in which [ch]
occurs in a totally unstressed syllable is de-affricativized.  Consider,
for example, Chicago (with a [sh]) vs. Chi-town and Chisox ('Chicago White
Sox') with a [ch].  Or chiropodist, with either initial [k] or [sh], but
not [ch].  Or cheroot (evidently from Tamil), usually (in my experience)
[sh] rather than [ch].  I think the key here is not the extension of [+
French] but the lack of stress on the first syllable; maybe Chicano (in
losing its [+ Spanish] feature?) is assimilated to this class rather than
treated as specifically French.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 09:52:01 -0700
From:    Garland D Bills <gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beijing /j/

On Wed, 13 May 1998, Larry Horn wrote:
> Clearly, there's a real phenomenon of generalized "foreign pronunciation"
> that may well encompass the [zh] pronunciation of Beijing.  But I'm not
> sure all the above fit under that category.  I've usually heard "Chicano"
> with a Spanish affricate rather than a French fricative, but I think
> there's also a phonological process whereby a number of words in which [ch]
> occurs in a totally unstressed syllable is de-affricativized.  Consider,
> for example, Chicago (with a [sh]) vs. Chi-town and Chisox ('Chicago White
> Sox') with a [ch].  Or chiropodist, with either initial [k] or [sh], but
> not [ch].  Or cheroot (evidently from Tamil), usually (in my experience)
> [sh] rather than [ch].  I think the key here is not the extension of [+
> French] but the lack of stress on the first syllable; maybe Chicano (in
> losing its [+ Spanish] feature?) is assimilated to this class rather than
> treated as specifically French.

        In my experience, the if-foreign-then-French rule is salient.
There may be other things going on with Chicano (dialect variation in
Spanish showing both [sh] and [ch]). However, when you encounter -- even
in New Mexico!! -- people who will pronounce the surname Cha'vez (with
stress on the first syllable) as [shave'] (with stress on the second
syllable), I feel pretty confident those people are working with a
[+French] procedure. And maybe a host of attitudinal baggage.

        Garland

Garland D. Bills                                E-mail: gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unm.edu
Department of Linguistics                       Tel.:   (505) 277-7416
University of New Mexico                        FAX:    (505) 277-6355
Albuquerque, NM 87131-1196 USA

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 11:47:25 -0400
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beijing /j/

The latest issue of _American Speech_ (Winter '97) has a Miscellany article
on one of these foreignizing sets, /a/~/ae/, as in Colorado, mantra,
pistachio, even habitat; the thesis is that we tend to use /a/ even if /ae/
was the original (or nativized) vowel because we want to "sound authentic."
 It's by Michael Shapiro.  On Beijing: When we hired a Chinese instructor
this year, a Far East colleague chastised us for saying [zh]; it was so
easy to slip into.

Incidentally, what is the range of pronunciation of 'Chicago' with [ch]?
It's heard early on in "American Tongues."


At 11:27 AM 5/13/98 -0400, you wrote:
>At 12:14 AM -0500 5/13/98, Donald M. Lance wrote:
>>>Does anyone know why the j in Beijing is frequently pronounced as if
French?
>>>The Mandarin pronunciation is clearly like a "regular" English j, and the
>>>switch from Peking happened recently enough that it shouldn't have gotten
>>>mixed up.
>>
>>For the same reason people say 'machete' and 'Chicano' as if they were
>>French words.  Also the -ch- in 'Appalachian', said like 'appelation'.  And
>>some other words I can't think of at the moment.  Radio and TV announcers
>>seem to have a rule that says "when in doubt, assume French origin."  But,
>>when in doubt, -ei- is treated as if it were German.  Thirty or so years
>>ago, before news people knew that Brunei existed, I knew someone from
>>there.  He said it 'bru-nay'.  Now we just hear 'bru-nigh'.
>>
>>DMLance
>Clearly, there's a real phenomenon of generalized "foreign pronunciation"
>that may well encompass the [zh] pronunciation of Beijing.  But I'm not
>sure all the above fit under that category.  I've usually heard "Chicano"
>with a Spanish affricate rather than a French fricative, but I think
>there's also a phonological process whereby a number of words in which [ch]
>occurs in a totally unstressed syllable is de-affricativized.  Consider,
>for example, Chicago (with a [sh]) vs. Chi-town and Chisox ('Chicago White
>Sox') with a [ch].  Or chiropodist, with either initial [k] or [sh], but
>not [ch].  Or cheroot (evidently from Tamil), usually (in my experience)
>[sh] rather than [ch].  I think the key here is not the extension of [+
>French] but the lack of stress on the first syllable; maybe Chicano (in
>losing its [+ Spanish] feature?) is assimilated to this class rather than
>treated as specifically French.
>
>Larry
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 12:13:02 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beijing /j/

At 9:52 AM -0700 5/13/98, Garland D Bills wrote:
>
>        In my experience, the if-foreign-then-French rule is salient.
>There may be other things going on with Chicano (dialect variation in
>Spanish showing both [sh] and [ch]). However, when you encounter -- even
>in New Mexico!! -- people who will pronounce the surname Cha'vez (with
>stress on the first syllable) as [shave'] (with stress on the second
>syllable), I feel pretty confident those people are working with a
>[+French] procedure. And maybe a host of attitudinal baggage.
>
Well, maybe.  But I've heard Cesar Chavez's surname pronounced CHA-vez (or
CHA-v'z), while the place where Dodger Stadium resides--Chavez Ravine--is
virtually always Anglicized to shuh-VEZ ra-VEEN, not to Garland's
Francophile [shave'] or to the more faithful chuh-VEZ.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 15:38:01 +1000
From:    Ross Chambers <maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Oz Catch Phrase in the making

The Australian Football League, practitioners of a very popular local
code which combines Rugby and Gaelic football, ran a TV campaign about
12 months ago which had sports "stars" like John McEnroe saying things
like "These guys call the ref names and get away with it? I'd like to
see that" The second sentence being a common format to each.

This appears to be becoming a catch phrase, often employed in "letters
to the editor" contexts.

>From a suburban newspaper:

"Hopefully the "blokey" image of SOCOG and other Olympic organisations
can be rectified before 2000!
Mr Richardson needs to have a mayoress appointed to "balance" the
Olympic village style.
I'd like to see that!"

Regards - Ross Chambers

--

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Ross Chambers           Sydney       Australia
maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ozemail.com.au

"L'Australia non e solo agli antipodi, e lontana da tutto,
  talora anche da sa stessa."

(Australia is not only  at the Antipodes, she is away from everything,
sometimes even from herself)

Umberto Eco

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 11:25:17 -0500
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beijing /j/

a snippet from Mark Mandel's e-mail of 5-13:

> The example I recall was in Viennese(?)

Shifting the topic 180 degrees, going the opposite direction on a parallel
track from the one we've been on:

The little town of Vienna, Missouri, is still prounounced [vai-En[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] or
[vai-in[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] or [vai-ini] by old-timers, so I've been told.  And I've heard
the first one myself.  Gloss: [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] = schwa, the rest in somewhat standard IPA.
A side note: I grew up hearing neighbors talk of the canned little sausages
as vie-eena sassidges.  Are Americanizations inherently better or more
euphonious.  Depends on who's passing judgment.

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 11:27:35 -0500
From:    Matthew Gordon <gordonm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALUMET.PURDUE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beijing /j/

Adding to the list of hyperforeign pronunciations, I recall hearing a
radio newsperson speaking of Gorbachev retreating to his "dacha" which
was pronounced with  the velar fricative [x] in place of the palatal
affricate [tS].  Is there a general pattern of opting for Germanesque
pronunciations of Russian words vs. Frenchified versions of items from
other languages?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 11:38:02 -0500
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beijing /j/

Larry Horn wrote:

>  I've usually heard "Chicano"
>with a Spanish affricate rather than a French fricative, but I think
>there's also a phonological process whereby a number of words in which [ch]
>occurs in a totally unstressed syllable is de-affricativized.  Consider,
>for example, Chicago (with a [sh]) vs. Chi-town and Chisox ('Chicago White
>Sox') with a [ch].  Or chiropodist, with either initial [k] or [sh], but
>not [ch].  Or cheroot (evidently from Tamil), usually (in my experience)
>[sh] rather than [ch].  I think the key here is not the extension of [+
>French] but the lack of stress on the first syllable; maybe Chicano (in
>losing its [+ Spanish] feature?) is assimilated to this class rather than
>treated as specifically French.

Actually, I've heard only a few people say 'shicano'.  Larry's analysis is
right.

Also, as Garland Bills points out, in some dialects of Mexican Spanish
there is alternation between -sh- and -ch-, but the gringos who say
'mashete' wouldn't be imitating the 'munsho' dialect [dialectal
pronunciation of 'mucho'].

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 12:58:58 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: Missourianisms

We may have talked about this before, but as Donald probably knows, being a fellow Missourian, we also pronounce Versailles, Mo., as /ver-SALES/; Vichy, Mo. as /VI-she/ (rhymes with "fishy"), New Madrid, Mo., as /new MAD-drid/; Pomme de Terre as /PAHM duh tare/; Bonne Terre as /BAHN tare/; and in my house those little sausages were always /VEE-enna/ sausages.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 10:27:32 -0700
From:    "A. Vine" <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: Beijing /j/

Larry Horn wrote:
>
> At 12:14 AM -0500 5/13/98, Donald M. Lance wrote:
> >>Does anyone know why the j in Beijing is frequently pronounced as if French?
> >>The Mandarin pronunciation is clearly like a "regular" English j, and the
> >>switch from Peking happened recently enough that it shouldn't have gotten
> >>mixed up.
> >
> >For the same reason people say 'machete' and 'Chicano' as if they were
> >French words.  Also the -ch- in 'Appalachian', said like 'appelation'.  And
> >some other words I can't think of at the moment.  Radio and TV announcers
> >seem to have a rule that says "when in doubt, assume French origin."  But,
> >when in doubt, -ei- is treated as if it were German.  Thirty or so years
> >ago, before news people knew that Brunei existed, I knew someone from
> >there.  He said it 'bru-nay'.  Now we just hear 'bru-nigh'.
> >
> >DMLance
> Clearly, there's a real phenomenon of generalized "foreign pronunciation"
> that may well encompass the [zh] pronunciation of Beijing.  But I'm not
> sure all the above fit under that category.  I've usually heard "Chicano"
> with a Spanish affricate rather than a French fricative, but I think
> there's also a phonological process whereby a number of words in which [ch]
> occurs in a totally unstressed syllable is de-affricativized.  Consider,
> for example, Chicago (with a [sh]) vs. Chi-town and Chisox ('Chicago White
> Sox') with a [ch].  Or chiropodist, with either initial [k] or [sh], but
> not [ch].  Or cheroot (evidently from Tamil), usually (in my experience)
> [sh] rather than [ch].  I think the key here is not the extension of [+
> French] but the lack of stress on the first syllable; maybe Chicano (in
> losing its [+ Spanish] feature?) is assimilated to this class rather than
> treated as specifically French.
>
> Larry

Larry, do you really hear "cheroot" that often?

My personal pet peeve is the Frenchising of Italian, most recently a
frozen pizza product called "Di Giorno", which is advertised as though
it were "Di jour no".  Don't get me started on the Italian
misspellings...

But could it possible be that it's easier (lazier?) to use the 'zh'
rather than the 'dzh' sound?  In the case of "Di Giorno", it's certainly
easier to revert to the 'zh'.  Affricates require a tremendous amount of
mouth work, and US speech seems to lean towards minimal mouth movement.

I do concur, though, that Americans are more familiar with French and
German pronunciations than Italian and Russian, and therefore might make
certain assumptions about pronouncing a particular word.  Certainly US
English contains more French and German than Italian and Russian.
Interestingly enough, US English tends to be truer to the original
French pronunciation than British English (e.g. Beaulieu, Ypres,
lieutenant).  Perhaps it is an island mentality, or a long-standing
history of conflict which causes the Brits to differentiate their
pronunciation.

Andrea

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 13:34:09 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beijing /j/

At 11:27 AM -0500 5/13/98, Matthew Gordon wrote:
>Adding to the list of hyperforeign pronunciations, I recall hearing a
>radio newsperson speaking of Gorbachev retreating to his "dacha" which
>was pronounced with  the velar fricative [x] in place of the palatal
>affricate [tS].  Is there a general pattern of opting for Germanesque
>pronunciations of Russian words vs. Frenchified versions of items from
>other languages?

I don't know if that one is really representative of a pattern so much as a
(wrong) guess that -ch- in transcriptions from the Russian is a variant of
the -kh- used for the actual velar fricative [x] in Russian transcriptions.
If there's any influence from German here (or from Scottish, for that
matter; cf. loch) it might just be in the use of -ch- for [x].  Perhaps the
German-style [ay] pronunciation of -ei- in e.g. "Brunei" as signalled by
Don Lance is a similar phenomenon:  it's not so much thinking that "Brunei"
is really a German name, or a name otherwise to be Germanicized, but
thinking that -ei- is in general a representation of [ay].

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 13:39:13 EDT
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: CaRIBbean (was Beijing /j/)

DMLance writes:
<<in some dialects of Mexican Spanish there is alternation between -sh- and
-ch-, but the gringos who say 'mashete' wouldn't be imitating the 'munsho'
dialect [dialectal pronunciation of 'mucho'].>>

Along the same lines, are there any Caribbean dialects in which <Caribbean> is
pronounced with the accent on the second syllable, or is CaRIBbean entirely a
US/Canada/European affectation? (What I generally hear from the natives is
CarriBEan--also the first pronunciation given in the first dictionary I looked
at this afternoon.)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 14:07:09 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beijing /j/

At 10:27 AM -0700 5/13/98, A. Vine wrote:
>But could it possible be that it's easier (lazier?) to use the 'zh'
>rather than the 'dzh' sound?  In the case of "Di Giorno", it's certainly
>easier to revert to the 'zh'.  Affricates require a tremendous amount of
>mouth work, and US speech seems to lean towards minimal mouth movement.

I think this is basically right for a lot of the cases.  This is very much
along the lines of what I think is going on with the ch-->sh in unstressed
syllables "rule".  (Besides those Chicago chiropodists with their cheroots,
there's also chinooks and chicanery, both of which typically are sh- rather
than ch- initial, despite their spelling; at least the former is an
unlikely candidate for Frenchification.)

>Interestingly enough, US English tends to be truer to the original
>French pronunciation than British English (e.g. Beaulieu, Ypres,
>lieutenant).  Perhaps it is an island mentality, or a long-standing
>history of conflict which causes the Brits to differentiate their
>pronunciation.

So I've always assumed.  We were just discussing variants of
"garage"--doesn't this more or less rhyme with "marriage" in Britain?  At
least the latter consonant is as affricated as the former.  And I've never
gotten over hearing the Brits refer to Albert Camus as KAY-muss, rhyming
with "squamous".


Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 14:14:03 -0400
From:    David Bergdahl <bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: nativizing pronunciations

The other side of the coin of affective foreignizing is nativizing: my
favorite is Russian "intelligentsia" with {dzh} rather than [g] in the
antepenult syllable.  We say Kinder-Garden rather than [gartIn] and my
previous example of lingerie with RAY rather than [ri] in the final
syllable. Affective foreignizing may be one stage on the path to
nativization--make the truly foreign sound a sterotypical foreign sound
before assimilating it totally.

=======================================================================
David Bergdahl          Ellis Hall 114c        Ohio University / Athens
Associate Prof/English  tel:  (740) 593-2783   fax:  (740) 593-2818
                        bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu
                    http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
=======================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 17:18:08 -0400
From:    Wendalyn Nichols <wnichols[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RANDOMHOUSE.COM>
Subject: theorizing on pronunciation

---------------------- Forwarded by Wendalyn Nichols/Trade/RandomHouse on
05/13/98 05:16 PM ---------------------------


Larry Horn <laurence.horn [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] YALE.EDU> on 05/13/98 02:07:09 PM

Please respond to American Dialect Society <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

To:   ADS-L [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
cc:    (bcc: Wendalyn Nichols/Trade/RandomHouse)
bcc:  Wendalyn Nichols/Trade/RandomHouse
Subject:  theorizing on pronunciation

There certainly is an element in Britain of scorn for those who try to
pronounce foreign words too exactly - it's considered show-offy, which
seemed to me to be a social crime in Britain!  One is expected to
understate one's expertise there.  However, a majority of the pronunciation
differences have much more to do with sheer lapse of time, and I suspect
that if you traced the reasons for the pronunciation of Beaulieu you'd
probably find why we pronounce "beauty" the way we do instead of "bowTAY" -
and that the reasons would be slightly different for each word in question.
One factor is that the contact with France goes back so far that words were
pronounced differently in French when first heard in Britain, and converted
into something approximating what an Anglo-Saxon mouth could get its tongue
round.  Not to mention all the intermarriage between the two countries, the
Hanoverian influence of the Georges...  It would be nice to blame it all on
bloody-mindedness, but then we'd be guilty of dismissiveness.  I have
little clue as to why some American pronunciations stay closer to the
French (although not, as it happens, in the cases of "lingerie" or "chaise
longue") but it's something that my colleagues in Britain often commented
on.  ("Garage" does indeed rhyme with "marriage" in Britain.)  It may be
that the terms where the differences are most marked are relatively late
entries into our respective varieties of English, so that they entered our
American language separately from their entry into British speech, and,
cultural wannabes that we are, we tried to be more faithful to the original
pronunciation.  Sounds like an interesting doctoral thesis, if someone
hasn't already done it.



>Interestingly enough, US English tends to be truer to the original
>French pronunciation than British English (e.g. Beaulieu, Ypres,
>lieutenant).  Perhaps it is an island mentality, or a long-standing
>history of conflict which causes the Brits to differentiate their
>pronunciation.

So I've always assumed.  We were just discussing variants of
"garage"--doesn't this more or less rhyme with "marriage" in Britain?  At
least the latter consonant is as affricated as the former.  And I've never
gotten over hearing the Brits refer to Albert Camus as KAY-muss, rhyming
with "squamous".


Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 17:22:35 -0400
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: nativisms

>And then there's Peru, IN [pe ru], stress on first syllable; Chile, IN
>[chai li]; Brazil, IN [brae z[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]l], stress on first; Cairo, IL [ke ro];
>Milan, MN [mai l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n], stress on first; Bellefontaine, OH, semi-calqued to
>'Bellefountain'....
>
>>>
>>>Shifting the topic 180 degrees, going the opposite direction on a parallel
>>>track from the one we've been on:
>>>
>>>The little town of Vienna, Missouri, is still prounounced [vai-En[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] or
>>>[vai-in[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] or [vai-ini] by old-timers, so I've been told.  And I've heard
>>>the first one myself.  Gloss: [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] = schwa, the rest in somewhat standard IPA.
>>>A side note: I grew up hearing neighbors talk of the canned little sausages
>>>as vie-eena sassidges.  Are Americanizations inherently better or more
>>>euphonious.  Depends on who's passing judgment.
>>>
>>>DMLance
>>>
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 17:09:14 -0500
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: CaRIBbean (was Beijing /j/)

Ron Butters asks,
>
>Along the same lines, are there any Caribbean dialects in which <Caribbean> is
>pronounced with the accent on the second syllable, or is CaRIBbean entirely a
>US/Canada/European affectation? (What I generally hear from the natives is
>CarriBEan--also the first pronunciation given in the first dictionary I looked
>at this afternoon.)

Fred Cassidy, who was born there, says CaribBEan.  I recall him commenting
on it once.  I think he said residents of the islands use his pronunciation
but that the other one is making inroads.  SPE rules, I suppose, would say
that the underlying /i/ in the penultimate syllable makes that one a strong
syllable, thus stressed.  Those who use the other pronunciation apparently
have an underlying lax vowel penultimately, which then would shift the
stress to the antepenultimate.  Or -ribb- may be a strong syllable, thereby
attracting the stress, especially if the penult -e- is lax.

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 17:00:34 -0500
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beijing /j/

Larry Horn wrote:

>  Perhaps the
>German-style [ay] pronunciation of -ei- in e.g. "Brunei" as signalled by
>Don Lance is a similar phenomenon:  it's not so much thinking that "Brunei"
>is really a German name, or a name otherwise to be Germanicized, but
>thinking that -ei- is in general a representation of [ay].

This afternoon, I heard -- again -- on our University radio station EYE-tor
for the first name of the Brazilian composer Heitor Villa Lobos.  At least
he knew not to say the h-.

I agree with Larry that these "mispronouncers" just think the general
foreign pronunciation of -ei- is EYE.  When pressed, they might say
something about German or French but might not.

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 17:27:10 -0500
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Beijing /j/

Fom Larry Horn....

> This is very much
>along the lines of what I think is going on with the ch-->sh in unstressed
>syllables "rule".  (Besides those Chicago chiropodists with their cheroots,
>there's also chinooks and chicanery, both of which typically are sh- rather
>than ch- initial, despite their spelling; at least the former is an
>unlikely candidate for Frenchification.)

When Lewis & Clark got to the mouth of a pair of river that merge several
miles before flowing into the Missouri, Clark referred to them as "the two
rivers called by the French the two Charatons," which Clark claimed was a
"corruption" of another word.  However, the names on other maps have
"charlaton" and similar forms.  The 1893 Coues edition of L&C has a long,
long footnote on this name.

The larger of the two is now known as the Chariton River, as is the county,
and the smaller one to the west is called the Mussel Fork.  Old-timers say
this name with ch-, but it's popular nowadays to say it with sh-. Because
of vowel mergers, voiced t's, etc. occasionally one sees Sheridan in local
newspaper published by the J-School -- in articles written and proofed by
kids who aren't from central Missouri.  The weather guys on local tv
stations also say sh-.

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 21:47:37 -0400
From:    Elizabeth Gibbens <gibbens[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EROLS.COM>
Subject: Hair Cut

Dear All--

        I am finishing a dictionary project for the American Society of Appraisers
(ASA), a blanket organization for the appraisal industry.

        One of the terms the organization has requested that I define is "hair
cut"; of course, the ASA wants the slang or jargon meaning of that phrase.
Does anyone have ideas about what it means?

                                                        Elizabeth Gibbens

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 12 May 1998 to 13 May 1998
************************************************
There are 12 messages totalling 573 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Chinagate; Viagra; Memorial Day
  2. albeit - a conjunction, yet it's a clause (2)
  3. Sri Lankan Taxi drivers
  4. Paddy wagon query (2)
  5. scumbag
  6. Urgent: CBS News needs help for a spell
  7. ADS-L Archive Search
  8. Law/Principle of Least Effort
  9. New Web based chat server.
 10. what had happen was....

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 May 1998 03:47:53 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Chinagate; Viagra; Memorial Day

CHINAGATE

     The New York Post is calling the alleged sale of high technology to China
for campaign cash as "Chinagate."  No surprise there.
     It wasn't always a "-gate."  This is from THE WEEKLY REGISTER (NILES), 21
September 1811, pg. 33 (front page), col. 1:

     _President and Little Belt._
[The affair (every thing is an "affair" now-a-days) of the _President_ and
_Little Belt_...]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
VIAGRA

     In tonight's (Wednesday) TONIGHT SHOW with Jay Leno, Leno finally
corrected himself:  "It's Vi-AG-ra, isn't it?  Like Ni-AG-ra."
     Surely he means "Niagara."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
MEMORIAL DAY

     The DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS (pg. 1044) has 1869 for "Memorial Day."
     Worldcat has:

1860--THE MEMORIAL DAY:  A SERMON PREACHED IN THE PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH, IN
PUTNAM, OHIO, JANUARY 1st, 1860 by Addison Kingsbury (1800-1892).
1868--COLLECTION OF MATERIALS RELATING TO CELEBRATIONS OF MEMORIAL DAY IN
CONCORD, MASS., Memorial Day (handbill)(1868).
1868--MEMORIAL DAY, MAY 30, 1868 (broadside), Brunswick? Me.?, the first line
"O Lord of Hosts!  Almighty King!" is by Oliver Wendell Holmes (1809-1894).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
MISC.

     On "scumbag," "douchebag," "slimebag," "slimeball," "sleazebag," and
"sleazeball," I forgot to add "dirtbag" and "dirtball"--both of which are in
the RHHDAS (but not before 1941).  If Read's CLASSIC AMERICAN GRAFFITI doesn't
record these terms on bathroom walls in the late 1920s, it's time to hit the
1930s material.
     On "You're the Atop," I wrote Noel Coward when I meant to say Cole
Porter....Louis Cohen, the "next Bobby Fischer"  I defeated in the New York
State Junior High School Chess Championship in the late 1970s, won yesterday's
JEOPARDY! and will be on again today.  I think it's the same guy.  He said
he's a language teacher, which caused Alex Trebek to remark:  "You know what
they call someone who speaks one language, don't you?  An American."

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 May 1998 16:53:41 +0200
From:    Michal Lisecki <magura[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CN.CZ.TOP.PL>
Subject: albeit - a conjunction, yet it's a clause

Dear linguists and natives of English,

One of the lecturers at my University (U. of Silesia, Poland) focused his
academic interest on the phenomenon of the conjunction/clause "albeit."
He investigates various occurances of this item as occuring throughout ages.

e.g. al [be] it, al be thow, albeit it be, albeit that, etc.
In this way he came across a use of "albeit" as a sort of separate standing
clause like in the example below.

e.g. Analysts are predicting the company will return to profit this year,
*albeit their pre-tax projections are* for a figure of only #500.000
(pounds).

Yet, even more strange occurence he came accross came from latest quality
papers where he found the following form occur for which he finds no
justification or explanation:

e.g. But the real reason Buckingham Palace has thrown its gilded gates open
(*albeit it* for a hefty #8 per head) is that the Prince of Wales has been
lobbying hard for such a move.)

e.g. Yet she had lived long enough, *albeit it* in her mother's womb.

I was wondering if any of you, as native speakers of English and/or
qualified linguists at the same time, find any justification and explanation
for the use of *albeit it* form in the above example.

I am just an undergraduate, about to finish my MA thesis in June, but I got
interested with the topic enough in order to ask the question.
At the same time, I am almost sure that he himself would be willing to
discuss any aspects of the use of *albeit* as it was a point of his interest
about four years ago [8 ICEHL Edinburgh, 19-23 September 1994: _Albeit_ a
conjunction, yet it is a clause: a counterexample to undirectionality
hypothesis].
If any of you is interested I could pass down your email to him.

Thanks in advance.
tafn mike
____________________________________________________________
Michal Lisecki  <magura[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cz.top.pl> or <mlisecki[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kki.net.pl>
UIN [4324037]  IRC [lisu]  http://priv2.onet.pl/ka/mlisecki
'The limits of my language mean the limits of my world' L.W.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 May 1998 11:07:05 +1000
From:    Ross Chambers <maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Sri Lankan Taxi drivers

Grant Barrett wrote:

<<The changes address what is seen in the government as the "Sri Lankan
psychologist taxi driver syndrome" - a crude reference to the problems
encountered by many skilled immigrants in finding work in their chosen
fields.>>

My acquaintance in this situation was a South African dental mechanic of
Indian origins, who was only able to find work sorting mail--probably
more difficult material to construct a phrase from!

The list may be interested to know of a procedure which was practised by
the Australian immigration authorities during the period of the "White
Australia" policy.

Those intending immigrants who were successful in reaching the port of
entry, and who were suspected of not being "White," were required to
demonstrate their literacy by sitting a dictation test. The language of
the text was not specified, and failure and consequent expulsion were
usually assured when, for example, testing Cantonese speakers in Gaelic.

I'm pleased to say that this policy was abandoned 40 or 50 years ago,
however Mr. Ruddock's statement shows the current government's attitude
of restricting immigration numbers

The dictation test may show another way that linguists can play their
part in social engineering!

Kind regards - Ross Chambers
--

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Ross Chambers           Sydney       Australia
maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ozemail.com.au

"L'Australia non e solo agli antipodi, e lontana da tutto,
  talora anche da sa stessa."

(Australia is not only  at the Antipodes, she is away from everything,
sometimes even from herself)

Umberto Eco

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 May 1998 18:45:22 +1000
From:    Ross Chambers <maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Paddy wagon query

HELP!! I wrote to a journalist on Australian national radio who used the
expression "paddy wagon" when covering a strike.

Relying on Partridge I said that the expression was pejorative to Irish
people.

I have received in reply definitions from:

OED2, Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Random House 1966,
The Macquarie Dictionary, Brewer's Dictionary of 20th Century Phrase and
Fable. Partridge, Picturesque Expressions-Urdang, Hunsinger and La Roche
and Wicked Words-Rawson.

in defense of the phrase's lack of negative national connotations.

A couple of these definitions are equivocal regarding the origin of the
phrase (including Partridge) and attribute it to the Paddies of the US
police forces, but possibly to the Paddies who found themselves habitual
passengers in these waggons.

I am prepared to eat crow if necessary--but would appreciate any
possibilty of rescue.

Kind regards - Ross Chambers

--

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Ross Chambers           Sydney       Australia
maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ozemail.com.au

"L'Australia non e solo agli antipodi, e lontana da tutto,
  talora anche da sa stessa."

(Australia is not only  at the Antipodes, she is away from everything,
sometimes even from herself)

Umberto Eco

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 May 1998 12:29:07 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: scumbag

I learned "scumbag" at high school age, in the early sixties. In my (doubtless incomplete) experience at the time it was
only used by, among, to, and of teenage boys.

-- Mark

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 May 1998 12:35:33 EDT
From:    AAllan <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Urgent: CBS News needs help for a spell

For a story on the National Spelling Bee, Jason Gabel of CBS News in New York
asks:

Are there statistics on spelling and misspelling (in English, of course)?
How much misspelling is there?
Which words are most often misspelled?
etc

If you know of statistical studies on misspelling (not just anecdotes), he'd
be grateful for the information. He's doing the story tomorrow (Friday 22nd),
so he'd need the information today. I think it would be of interest if you'd
post the information to ADS-L, but please also send it to him at

jsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cbsnews.com

(You could include your phone number if you care to make yourself available
for an interview.)

Thanks - Allan Metcalf

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 May 1998 10:00:12 -0700
From:    "Joseph P. McGowan" <mcgowan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TEETOT.ACUSD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Paddy wagon query

On Thu, 21 May 1998, Ross Chambers wrote:

> HELP!! I wrote to a journalist on Australian national radio who used the
> expression "paddy wagon" when covering a strike.
>
> Relying on Partridge I said that the expression was pejorative to Irish
> people.


It is.  There may be some backtracking among lexicographers as a result of
revisionist historical work regarding Ireland and Irish emigration (R.F.
Foster and others) -- e.g. that NINA regulations (No Irish Need Apply)
have been mythologized (they were real) and so forth-- that has
dissociated `Paddy wagon' from `Paddy' (pejorative term for an Irishman <
Gaelic form Padraig, like Bridie/Biddie < Bridget/Brigid for an
Irishwoman).
        The usually loquacious & informative (via Regional notes)
_American Heritage Dictionary_ says ``origin unknown''; the _Oxford
Dictionary and Thesaurus_ (1996; American Edition) lists
        Paddy = derog. for Irishman
        paddy = policeman
        paddy wagon = police van
as connected to Padraig > Paddy.  The earliest newsprint references in the
U.S. seem to make clear that _paddy wagon_ is a formation analagous to
scores of similar combinations _paddy X_  or _Paddy's X_, most transferred
from the British Isles (a placename like Paddy's milestone, or terms like
_paddy camp_).  The combination _paddy X_ is often just a stronger form of
_Irish X_.  The second volume of J.E. Lighter's _Random House Historical
Dictionary of American Slang_ (1997) records:

Irish = fighting spirit (as BrE `Paddy' can = temper fit, rage)
Irish ambulance = wheelbarrow
Irish apple = potato
Irish baby buggy = wheelbarrow
Irish banjo = shovel
Irish bouquet = `a stone or rock or any other implement suitable for
        cracking skulls'
Irish caviar = meat stew
Irish clubhouse = jail

And so on.  Lighter lists another 39 similar constructions (1785-1980s,
many clustered in their first instance in the 1860s). Even more
appear in BrE dialects (usually _paddy X_).

The term _paddy camp_ (Irish ghetto) even made it into a Supreme Court
case: the 1830s Paddy Camps Lands case (deriving from the Lowell, MA,
``Paddy Camps'').  I hope to get back to a fuller investigation of these
terms in AmE, which would place `paddy wagon' unequivocally in the same
range as all of the other _paddy X_ formations.


-Joe McGowan


Dr. Joseph McGowan
Department of English
University of San Diego
San Diego, CA 92110-2492

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 May 1998 14:04:17 +0000
From:    Jim Rader <jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: Re: ADS-L Archive Search

I would like to second Don Lance's note of appreciation.  Grant
Barrett's work enhances enormously the usefulness of ADS-L.  I hope
it increases the number of postings on work in progress, preliminary
research results, bibliography, etc.  I wish that every list to which
I subscribe had an archive as easily searchable.

Jim Rader
Merriam-Webster, Inc.

> Grant Barrett -- Both those of us who seldom consult the ads-l archives and
> those who consult them regularly appreciate your work VERY MUCH.
>
> DMLance
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 May 1998 14:18:29 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Law/Principle of Least Effort

At 12:06 PM -0500 5/20/98, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>    Once again, I am grateful for Larry Horn's messages on the Law/Princple
>of Least Effort.  Here now are some thoughts in regard to his second
>message (5/19/98).
>
>     The overall picture I get is of an alleged law/principle with so many
>exceptions that one wonders by what justification its existence as a
>law/principle is advanced.
At the risk of further alienating listees with no interest in these
not-particularly-dialectal issues, let me push on.  I'm not sure what OTHER
explanation can be offered for the wide range of cases generally attributed
to the workings of some form of the law/principle of least effort, ranging
from assimilation, elision, and coarticulation in phonetics and phonology
to acronymy, initialism, and truncation in the lexicon to a variety of
"fast speech phenomena" in parole.

>Larry writes:
>      "In many cases, least effort is violated in parole while maintained
>in langue."

And vice versa, as the reference to fast speech phenomena indicates:
"Whyncha go?",  "Looks like it's gonna rain", "--Jeet jet? --No, jew?" and
so on.

>
>      If this statement is true, it seems to shake the Law/Principle
>severely.  After all, individuals speak individually;  and if their
>individual speech isn't subject to the Law/Principle of Least Effort, then
>how can one agree with Martinet  (_Elements_, p.167), when he writes:
>      "...Here [G. Cohen: i.e, in communication] as elsewhere, human
>behavior is subject to the law of least effort, according to which man
>gives of himself only so much as is necessary to attain the end he has in
>view."

Nobody to my knowledge has claimed that "individual speech isn't subject to
the Law/Principle of Least Effort".  My point was that quite often
different correlates show up in langue from those that show up in parole.
If I can't remember for the moment a particular lexical item and use a
periphrastic construction instead (as a child uses "plant-man" or
"tooth-guy" before she incorporates "gardener" or "dentist" into her
lexicon), that's an asymmetry between langue and parole, just as in the
deletion of certain predictable subjects ("Looks like it'll rain", "Think
the rain'll hurt the rhubarb?") in parole where the rules of langue require
a subject here.  In fact, the "null-subject parameter" dictating that
English and French MUST have a subject in indicative sentences while
Spanish, Italian and Japanese needn't (and will, in fact, dictate the
elimination of predictable subjects via least effort) is another case where
the operation of least effort will vary in accordance with other
linguistic, cognitive, and behavioral principles.


>     As for French "pleonastic ne" (where "pleonastic"  is synonymous with
>"extraneous"), I fail to see how this  "ne" increases the semantic content
>at all.

As I tried to show in my last note, the current stage in which the (formal)
language demands ne...pas is a stage on the way from a preverbal negation
to a preverbal negation with postverbal reinforcer (necessitated, as
Jespersen argues, by the least-effort tendency to reduce the phonological
realization of the proclitic) to a postverbal negation with preverbal
"forclusif", as the French grammarians call it, to the stage in which
postverbal negation stands alone, the preverbal marker now being otiose.
Claiming that the ne...pas stage vitiates the least effort principle
strikes me as analogous to claiming that a snapshot of Michael Jordan at
the apogee of a jump (or the existence of helium balloons) vitiates the law
of gravity.  Indeed, the ongoing loss of the now vestigial _ne_ in
colloquial French (parallelling its extinction in late Middle English) is
an indication that semantically and grammatically empty markers do indeed
tend to disappear.

>     So, with the Law/Principle having holes like a sieve, I would ask:
>What evidence do we have that this Law/Principle really exists?  Martinet,
>_ibid._, in one same paragraph refers to this feature as a "law" and a
>"tendency."  Which is it?
Since it doesn't operate unchecked, I'm not sure what follows from the
distinction.  Is there a law of self-preservation, or is it a tendency?
Does the fact that people sky-dive and bungee-jump, commit suicide, or go
off to war refute the existence of this law or tendency?  Does the fact
that birds, airplanes, and rockets fly indicate that the law of gravity has
holes like a sieve and should be abandoned?

>Simply because a few linguists have assumed that
>a given law or principle exists does not mean that its existence should  be
>accepted without question in later generations.

Among those seeking to establish functional motivation for structures,
constraints, and effects of language change (lexical, grammatical and
phonological), I'd say it's hardly (just) "a few linguists" who assume,
either ex- or implicitly, some version of the least effort principle.  And
since analogous principles of economy, as Zipf stressed, operate elsewhere
in human behavior, why should we assume that language alone is exempt?
Nobody (to my knowledge) claims that the principle (or tendency) to
economize effort explains EVERYthing (in language or elsewhere), but it
doesn't follow that it explains NOthing, especially in the light of both
common sense and the difficulty of formulating a non-ad hoc alternative to
account for what it encompasses (cf. again assimilation, anaphoric
reduction, acronymy, truncation, contraction, coarticulation, etc., as well
as various other phonological, lexical, and pragmatic phenomena attributed
to least effort or to its interaction with other linguistic and social
principles).

>    Incidentally, here are two items I have written relevant to syntactic
>blending and the Principle of Least Effort:
>1) "Contributions To The Study of Blending," in: _Etymology and Linguistic
>Principles, vol. l: Pursuit of Linguistic Insight_  (ed., Gerald Leonard
>Cohen; Rolla, Missouri; published by the editor), pp. 81-94, esp. pp.90-91.
>1988.
>
>2) _Syntactic Blends in English Parole_  (= _Forum Anglicum_, vol. 15).
>Frankfurt am Main: Peter Lang. l78 pp., with bibliography, where mention is
>made of Martinet and Zipf).
>
>--Gerald Cohen

Thanks, Jerry; I'll look for them.  (I'll send you under separate cover an
attachment of a relatively recent paper of mine on economy and redundancy,
not that we're likely to sway each other.)

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 May 1998 12:14:51 EST
From:    tom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AWH.DYN.ML.ORG
Subject: New Web based chat server.

hi there,

SuperChat is now up and running.  It is completely free and is good for
all ages.  SuperChat has a very nice and easy to use interface. Come join
the fun and meet new people at:

http://awh.dyn.ml.org/~tom/

tom lee

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 May 1998 16:13:34 -0500
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: albeit - a conjunction, yet it's a clause

Michal Lisecki in Poland asks:

>e.g. Analysts are predicting the company will return to profit this year,
>*albeit their pre-tax projections are* for a figure of only #500.000
>(pounds).
----------------

This example is not grammatical for me.  'Albeit' must be followed by a
phrase, not a clause.  So it is more like a preposition than a conjunction
-- but not really a preposition because it may be followed by a
prepositional phrase.

---------------
>e.g. But the real reason Buckingham Palace has thrown its gilded gates open
>(*albeit it* for a hefty #8 per head) is that the Prince of Wales has been
>lobbying hard for such a move.)
>
>e.g. Yet she had lived long enough, *albeit it* in her mother's womb.
>
>I was wondering if any of you, as native speakers of English and/or
>qualified linguists at the same time, find any justification and explanation
>for the use of *albeit it* form in the above example.
--------------

The use of 'it' in these examples is ungrammatical for me.

These are OK:

Analysts are predicting the company will return to profit this year, albeit
with a pre-tax figure of only $500.000 pounds.

But the real reason Buckingham Palace has thrown its gilded gates open,
albeit for a hefty #8 per head, is that the Prince ....

Yet she had lived long enough, albeit in her mother's womb.

I'm not sure whether I'd use 'albeit' in everyday speech, but I certainly
would use it (as above) in writing.

(A nephew-in-law of mine -- an adult with advanced degrees -- had seen the
term in writing and used it in a report and was told "That's not a word."
He asked me about it, saying the word "all-bite."  Of course I set him
straight.  My PhD is in English; his is in chemistry.  This pronunciation
is another example of what we were discussing earlier about "foreign"
pronunciation rules applied to strange words.

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 21 May 1998 16:31:38 -0500
From:    Ditra Henry <D-Henry1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: what had happen was....

        Recently, I have been hearing  this phrase when someone is
responding to various questions such as where were you?  what happened to
you?  I thought you were going to....?  and on occassions where someon is explaining their reasoning for certain answers.
reasons for answer etc.

Is this a common nonstandard form or is it becoming more common recently?
Are there any studies out there on this construction? Where can I find
them?

Ditra B. Henry
ESL Coordinator
Project Success
Northeastern Illinois University
5500 North St. Louis Ave.
Chicago, IL  60625-4699
ph. 773-583-4050 xt.3162
D-Henry1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neiu.edu

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 20 May 1998 to 21 May 1998
************************************************
There are 9 messages totalling 493 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Food folklore, pt. 1
  2. ^&**## truncation
  3. kleenex, sheetrock, and dragon systems (2)
  4. BOUNCE BOUNCE (2)
  5. Food folklore, pt. 2 [very long]
  6. Friday humor
  7. (Buffalo) chicken wings (Was Re: Food folklore, pt. 1 [very long])

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 May 1998 00:13:59 -0700
From:    Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: Food folklore, pt. 1

I had assumed that the name Buffalo wings originated outside of Buffalo -
and the "chicken" was eliminated because of the image of a buffalo having
wings.  Just as the English don't have English muffins and the French don't
have French fries or French toast - they wouldn't have been called Buffalo
wings in Buffalo.

The only origin to Caesar salad I've ever heard was the restaurant in
Tijuana.  People are still arguing about which is the more authentic - with
or without anchovies and with or without raw egg in the dressing.

And then there's the controversy over who invented the Martini...

(Maybe I'll just have a Caesar salad, some Buffalo wings, and a martini and
forget the whole thing.)

Rima

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 May 1998 09:38:00 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: ^&**## truncation

Thanks to Grant Barrett, I now have the untruncated Digest I asked for.

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 May 1998 09:54:45 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: kleenex, sheetrock, and dragon systems

Here at Dragon Systems we make speech recognition software that
enables people to control their personal computers and input text
by voice, as I'm inputting this text entirely by voice. Although
our continuous speech large vocabulary dictation program,
NaturallySpeaking, has only been on the market something like a
year, our discrete speech program, DragonDictate, hit the market
in 1990, and since then we have become well known among those who
have difficulty using a keyboard and those who deal with them
professionally. But I have often noticed that people unfamiliar
with the industry confuse the names of our products and of our
company.

The next stage has arrived: we're becoming genericized. A co-
worker of mine just sent around the following email:

>>>
 According to my hand doctor (I was visiting for treatment for
another broken finger - three down, seven to go) the term "dragon
systems", often misspelled, is becoming a generic term for speech
recognition systems. He sees a lot of RSI [repetitive stress
injury] patients, and corresponds with many doctors treating RSI
patients. He is seeing and hearing a lot of sentences like:

        This patient needs a dragon systems.

or

        My HR office wants to get me a dragon systems.

Unfortunately, "dragon systems" to often shows up spelled
"dragging systems" or "drag on systems" or some such variation. I
am hard-pressed to understand what is going through the mind of
someone writing

        This patient needs a dragging systems.

but the doc claims he is seeing things like this.
 <<<

In theory these could be speakos (see my previous post), but our
products all recognize their own names, and ours, better than
that! Maybe these doctors are using a competing product. We take
care to recognize their names, but maybe they don't return the
favor.  ;-)\

-- Mark

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/

This document was created by voice with Dragon Systems'
NaturallySpeaking.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 May 1998 10:03:51 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: BOUNCE BOUNCE

Posts to ADS-L are getting the following response (and I expect it for this one too):

        While connected to msuacad.morehead-st.edu. [147.133.1.1] (tcp):
        >>> RCPT To:<wbhaml01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu>
        <<< 550 <wbhaml01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu>... User unknown
        550 wbhaml01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu... User unknown

And similarly for these four other addresses:

        rdkoon01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu
        bxhowa01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu
        rxgree01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu
        jlswee01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu

Perhaps old accounts have been purged from the system at Morehead State, but are still on the list.

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 May 1998 11:10:47 +0000
From:    Jim Rader <jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: Food folklore, pt. 2 [very long]

The deficient documentation of food terms is a serious issue if you want to go
beyond folklore and get at some real history.  But I know the
evidence is out there.  I got an object lesson back in 1989 when I
got in a tussle with an Omaha newspaper columnist over the origin of
_Reuben sandwich_.  The tussle began when R.G. Cortelyou, an Omaha
resident, sent me the July 24, 1989, column by Robert McMorris in the
_Omaha World-Herald_.  McMorris had read the etymology of _Reuben
sandwich_ in the _Random House College Dictionary_, which read "after
Arnold Reuben (1883-1970), U.S. restaurateur who first created it."
Random House, it turned out, had trod on a local legend  (not by my
foot--the etymology was written before my tenure at Random House).
According to Omaha lore, the combination of rye bread, corned beef,
Swiss cheese, and sauerkraut had been dreamed up in 1925 to feed
participants in a late-night poker game at the Blackstone Hotel in
downtown Omaha by a local grocer, Reuben Kulakofsky.  Charles
Schimmel, the hotel's owner, was so taken with the sandwich that he
put it on the hotel restaurant menu, designated by its inventor's
name.  Fern Snider, a one-time waitress at the Blackstone, entered
the Reuben in a national sandwich competetion in 1956; her entry
won--hence one of the earliest pieces of documentation for the name
of the sandwich, an OED cite from 1956 from the food services journal
_Institutions_.

In a reply to Mr. Cortelyou I questioned the existence of Reuben
Kulakofsky outside of Omaha folklore and challenged him to come up
with evidence documenting an Omaha  origin for the Reuben sandwich.
Cortelyou--not very ethically to my mind--sent my letter without my
permission or knowledge to McMorris, who pilloried me in his column
for Aug. 23 ("Amazing.  The man admittedly knows nothing about the
Reuben, but he has doubts about Reuben Kulakofsky, somehow equating
him with folklore figures like Paul Bunyan.  One wonders how Rader
feels about the Earl of Sandwich.")  To my delight, though, he
challenged his readers to come up with evidence for the sandwich
("Any of you out there have older Blackstone menus that document the
Reuben's existence?").  One of McMorris's readers produced a
Depression-era menu--though datable only by its reference to "world
confusion" and exaggerated pessimism," as a sort of apology for the
sumptuous decor--from the Plush Horse, a newly opened restaurant in
the Blackstone Hotel that offered under sandwich specialties a
_Rueben_ [sic] for 50 cents.  Another reader produced a menu
containing the sandwich from the coffee shop of the Cornhusker Hotel
in Lincoln, Nebraska, which was actually dated:  October 9, 1937.
McMorris stated in his column of Sept. 13 that he planned to send
copies of this material to me.  Unfortunately, he never came through,
despite a couple of pleading letters on my part.

Mr. Cortelyou, who initially provoked the exchange, did some research
on his own, however.  He sent me a copy of a menu from the Plush
Horse held in the library of the Douglas County Historical Society.
The "Rueben" (same spelling as above) is now 60 cents.  This menu too
is undated but a note at the bottom states "All prices are our
ceiling prices or below.  By O.P.A. regulation, our ceilings are
based on our highest prices from April 4 to 10, 1943."  The Office of Price
Administration, which regulated prices during World War II, ceased
operations in 1946, so it is probably safe to date the menu from
somewhere in the period 1943-46 (assuming prices were raised as soon
as regulations were lifted).  This is the earliest attestation of at
least a variant of _Reuben (sandwich)_ that I have in hand.

Anothe item Cortelyou sent me was a copy of an obituary for Reuben
Kulakofsky that appeared in the _Omaha World-Herald_.  Kulakofsky,
who had been co-owner of a wholesale grocery, the Central Market,
died in Omaha on March 6, 1960, at the age of 86.  The obituary says
nothing about the Reuben sandwich.

In a letter sent directly to McMorris, I relented and said that
Random House would change its etymology to reflect Reuben
Kulakofsky's role as the probable originator of the sandwich.  In
retrospect, I think this was a hasty decision.  At the time, I had
not really examined Arnold Reuben's claim.

Arnold Reuben, a German immigrant, opened his first restaurant in New
York at 802 Park Ave. ca. 1908 (sources differ on the exact year); he
relocated to Broadway and 82nd St. several years later, to Broadway
and 73rd St. (near the Ansonia Hotel) in 1916, and to 622 Madison
Ave. in 1918.  In 1935, the formal opening of Reuben's Restaurant at
6 East 58th St. was attended by Mayor Fiorello LaGuardia.  Reuben's
Restaurant remained at this location until 1965 or 1966.  The _N.Y.
Times_ columnist Marian Burros recalled the decor in a Jan. 11, 1986,
column:  "Italian marble, gold-leaf ceiling, lots of walnut paneling
and dark red leather seats--to a small-town girl it was the
quintessential New York restaurant."  Burros recalled the apple
pancakes and cheesecake, but she says nothing about Reuben
sandwiches.  About 1964, Reuben sold his interest in the restaurant
to Harry L. Gilman and retired to Palm Beach.  He died Dec. 31, 1970,
at the age of 87.  His obituary in the _Times_ (Jan. 1, 1971)
contains most of the above information, but says nothing about Reuben
sandwiches.  The restaurant's offerings are described as follows:

- The after-theater diner typically orders one of the outsized
- sandwiches or may have the house specialty--cheese cake.  Or he may
- order one of Reuben's more ambitious sandwiches which bears the name
- of a show business celebrity.  Chopped-liver connoisseurs favor
- Reuben's.  Its Jewish delicacies include matzoth-ball soup and
- borscht.

I have not pieced together all of the subsequent history of the
restaurant, but by the early 1980's it was on the corner of 38th St.
and Madison Ave.; the current Manhattan phonebook gives its address
as 244 Madison Ave.

Arnold Reuben had a son, Arnold Jr., who worked in the restaurant
from ca. 1930 to the time of the 58th St. place's closing in 1965/66.
 I have not been able to determine if Arnold Jr. retained any
relation with the restaurant afterward, though he was associated with
a firm that sold by mail-order "Arnold Reuben Jr.'s Cheesecakes, A
Slice of New York" into the early '90's.  Arnold Jr. died in
Seminole, Florida, on May 30, 1997, at the age of 88 (obit in _St.
Petersburg Times_, June 1, 1997).

Now to the origin stories.  In 1976, Craig Claiborne in the _N.Y.
Times_ "De Gustibus" column queried his readers about the origin of
the Reuben sandwich.  The replies were summarized in his May 17
column.  The Omaha origin was given more serious consideration,
though Reuben Kulakofsky was identified as "Reuben Kay."  (Probably
via the Claiborne article this name found its way into the _Webster
New World_ 3rd ed. etymology of _Reuben sandwich_; according to
another McMorris _Omaha World-Herald_ column (Jan. 31, 1986), Reuben
and various other members of the Kulakofsky clan were sometimes
referred to by the first letter of their surname.)  However,
Claiborne also printed extracts from a letter from Patricia R. Taylor
of Manhattan, the daughter of Arnold Reuben Sr. (and presumably
brother of Arnold Jr.), part of which runs as follows:

- I would like to share with you the story of the first Reuben's
- Special and what went into it.
- The year was 1914.  Late one evening a leading lady of Charlie
- Chaplin's came into the restaurant and said, "Reuben, make me a
- sandwich, make it a combination.  I'm so hungry I could eat a brick."
- He took a loaf of rye bread, cut two slices on the bias and stacked
- one piece with sliced baked Virginia ham, sliced roast turkey, sliced
- imported Swiss cheese, topped it off with cole slaw and lots of
- Reuben's special Russian dressing and the second slice of bread....
- He served it to the lady who said, "Gee, Reuben, this is the best
- sandwich I ever ate.  You ought to call it an Annette Seelos
- Special."  To which he replied, "Like hell I will.  I'll call it a
- Reuben's Special."

The most interesting thing about this story is that the "Reuben's
Special" is not a Reuben sandwich, though it has certain features
thereof:  it includes meat, some form of cabbage, and cheese.  During
the Reuben sandwich debate with McMorris, one of his researchers
phoned Reuben's Restaurant in Manhattan and was told that the
restaurant carried both a "Reuben's Special"--described exactly as
Ms. Taylor described it--and a Reuben, described as "corned beef,
sauerkraut, and melted cheese" (McMorris _World-Herald_ column of
July 27, 1989).

This would seem to settle the matter in favor of the Nebraskans--the
sandwich created in New York is connected to the Nebraskan sandwich
by onomastic coincidence--were it not for a story told late in his
life by Arnold Reuben Jr., who himself claimed credit for the
sandwich's origin.  As related to the _St Petersburg Times_ (Dec. 1,
1993),

- The sandwich, he [Arnold Jr.] says, goes back to the 1930's.  The
- restaurant, which his father founded in 1915 [sic!], was open 24
- hours a day, and the younger Reuben worked from noon until 3 or 4 in
- the morning.  He didn't take time to sit down to eat.  He had too
- many customers.
- So every day, Reuben asked the chef to make him a hamburger.
- One day, chef Alfred Scheuing said he was sick of seeing Reuben
- eating the hamburger.
- The chef said, "I've made some nice, fresh corned beef."  He layered
- slices onto Russian dark pumpernickel bread, which he had buttered
- and toasted.  Then Scheuing said, "Let's see what we can do now to
- make it tastier," adding Swiss cheese.
- The chef also had a huge pot of fresh sauerkraut, which he made the
- sandwich's finishing touch.

I suppose that if Reuben had told this story about his father, it
would be family folklore.  The fact that he makes himself a
participant means that it is either truth or (charitably) very faulty
memory.  The only thing that could possibly validate it would be
evidence from old Reuben's Restaurant menus attesting to the
antiquity of the corned beef-Swiss cheese-sauerkraut Reuben (as
opposed to the Reuben Special).

For the moment, based on the menus, I must favor the Nebraskan
origin, though there is one quite significant thing about the Reuben
Kulakofsky story that gives me pause.  According to Kulakofsky's
obituary, services were held for him "at the Beth El Synagogue."  He
"was active for many years in Jewish circles."  Kulakofsky was born
in Lithuania and emigrated with his family in 1890. "He was one of
four sons and two daughters of the late Lazar Gershon Kulakofsky."
So Kulakofsky was most likely a practicing Jew; his cultural
background was unquestionably Jewish.  Would this man have improvised
a sandwich mixing meat and a dairy product?  Even if he didn't eat
the sandwich himself, would such a thoroughly goyish concoction have
naturally occurred to him as a treat for his poker partners?  After
all, he was, as far as we know, a grocer, not a chef.

I suppose the same objection might be made about Arnold Reuben,
though I really know nothing about the details of his ethnic
background.  To be sure, a man who supposedly created a sandwich
containing both ham and cheese, as he did in his daughter's
retelling, was most likely not an observant or even ethnic Jew.
Despite a possibly Ashkenazic surname, and the fact that his
restaurant served some New York Jewish deli-style dishes, Arnold
Reuben may not have been Jewish or may have lost all his Jewish
roots.  The fact that his son was also named Arnold certainly does
not suggest Jewishness; as far as I know, it is not the norm for
Americans of even weakly felt Jewish heritage to name a child after a
living relative.  If I am wrong about this, may someone correct me.

How much evidence is there, really, for the Kulakofsky story?  As far
as I know, neither Reuben himself nor anyone in his family ever took
credit for the sandwich.  McMorris claimed, in _World-Herald_ columns
of Jan 31, 1986, and several columns of August and September, 1989,
that Ed Schimmel, the manager of the Blackstone Hotel, told him the
story personally in 1965, and told a Chicago radio talk show host the
story on Feb. 28, 1968.  Of course, Schimmel was not a participant in
the 1920's poker games--he was relating a story told him by his
father, Charles, who was a participant.  No one who was actually
there tells the story firsthand.  McMorris (column of Sept. 7, 1989)
quotes one Louise Ware, who was a niece of Harvey Newbranch, a
one-time editor of the _World-Herald_:

"My Uncle Harvey played regularly in those poker games at the
Blackstone," Mrs. Ware said.  "One time when I was visiting him he
asked the cook to make sandwiches 'like we have at the Blackstone
poker parties.'  He gave her the recipe.
"I don't remember what he called the sandwich, but it was definitely
a Reuben because the ingredients were the same--corned beef,
sauerkraut, and so forth."
She said she was equally sure of the year, 1922 [not 1925 as in
Schimmel's account--JLR] because: "I was living in Nebraska City
then, and I had to come to Omaha to buy clothes for my first year of
college.  That's a date you remember."

Note that in this version the sandwich exists, but is unnamed, and
there is no mention of Reuben Kulakofsky.

The first actual--or at least reported--documentation of _Reuben
(sandwich)_, as mentioned above, is a menu not from Omaha, but rather
from the Cornhusker Hotel in Lincoln, Nebraska, from 1937.  This
meshes with the first cite in Merriam files, from a "Hotel
Cornhusker" menu, Lincoln, Neb., which described the _Reuben_ as
"corned beef, Sauer Kraut, Swiss cheese on Russian Rye"; the first
date on the cite slip is Jan. 19, 1956.  Interestingly, Robert
McMorris reported (column of Sept. 1, 1989) that an unnamed caller on
a local radio talk show claimed that the Cornhusker Hotel was indeed
the birthplace of the Reuben sandwich.

So what do I conclude about the etymologies of _Caesar salad_ and
_Reuben sandwich_?   _Caesar salad_ does seem to be named after
Caesar Cardini; if it isn't, we are looking at a very elaborate hoax
and many hoodwinked people.  As for _Reuben sandwich_, I'll stick
with "probably" after Reuben Kulakofsky for now, but I have serious
misgivings.  I hope more evidence shows up.  Those old menus are out
there somewhere.  I suspect the real history of the Reuben sandwich
has yet to be written.

Jim Rader

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 May 1998 11:02:15 -0400
From:    Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: BOUNCE BOUNCE

>
> Posts to ADS-L are getting the following response (and I expect it for this one too):

I've taken care of this. If the students are still active they'll
need to resubscribe with a working address.

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 29 May 1998 09:04:38 +0900
From:    Daniel Long <dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP>
Subject: Friday humor

Y'all might've heard this, but I thought it was cute.
Danny Long

A linguistics professor was lecturing to his class one day.  "In
English," he said, "a double negative forms a positive.  In some
languages, though, such as Russian, a double negative is still a
negative.  However, there is no language wherein a double positive can
form a negative."

 A voice from the back of the classroom piped up, "Yeah, right."

--
Daniel Long, Associate Professor     tel  +81-6-723-8297
Japanese Language Research Center    fax  +81-6-723-8302
Osaka Shoin Women's College          dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp
4-2-26 Hishiyanishi                  http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/
Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577-8550

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 May 1998 21:07:08 -0400
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <gd2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: (Buffalo) chicken wings (Was Re: Food folklore, pt. 1 [very long])

Further citation appended, from Buffalo NY:

At 04:16 PM 5/27/98 +0000, jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]m-w.com wrote:
>In the case of _Buffalo wings_, the naming is most likely going to
>follow the development of the dish by an interval of time.  If
>deep-fried chicken wings coated with hot sauce and served with celery
>and blue cheese dressing actually originated in the Buffalo area, the
>probability is that no one would have thought to call the dish
>_Buffalo wings_ until people either inside or outside the region had
>become conscious that the dish was regional--likewise, presumably,
>with other foods named after places (unless the name was a deliberate
>coinage by, say, a particular restaurant).  A Nexis search turned up
>1984 as the earliest date for the collocation, but there is an entry
>for _Buffalo chicken wings_ in John Mariani's _The Dictionary of
>American Food and Drink_ (1983), and Mariani reports that "in 1977
>the city of Buffalo declared July 29 'Chicken Wing Day.' "  Calvin
>Trillin wrote a piece on Buffalo wings that appeared in the Aug. 25,
>1980 _New Yorker_ ("U.S. Journal:  Buffalo, N.Y. An Attempt to
>Compile a Short History of the Buffalo Chicken Wing"); it dissects
>the subject in considerable detail for anyone interested.  Trillin
>makes a fairly convincing case that the dish was popular in greater
>Buffalo, but had not yet diffused much beyond it.  He does not use
>_Buffalo wing_, only _Buffalo chicken wing_.
>

Re: "Buffalo wing" vs. "Buffalo chicken wing," here's a cite I happened on
while skimming a listserv archive, where the speaker is in Buffalo and uses
"B c w," for what that's worth. QUOTE FOLLOWS:

Date:         Wed, 12 Oct 1994 21:37:12 -0400
Sender:       "Finnegans Wake (by James Joyce) Discussion List"
              <FWAKE-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IRLEARN.BITNET>
From:         "PRSPAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UBVMS Patrick Keleher" <PRSPAT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UBVMS.CC.BUFFALO.EDU>
Organization: University at Buffalo
Subject:      Re: I'll homeseek you, Luperca (FW444.35-36)

[...] TWO WEEKS AGO WE MET AN IRISH PUB!  AND DRANK GUINESS [sic] AND ATE
BUFFALO CHICKEN WINGS....

Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or gd2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 28 May 1998 19:40:40 -0700
From:    Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: kleenex, sheetrock, and dragon systems

Very impressive.  But if you did the whole thing by speech, how did you get
the emoticon at the end???

Rima

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 27 May 1998 to 28 May 1998
************************************************
There are 27 messages totalling 801 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Regional distribution -- 100 Bottles of Beer.... (2)
  2. O. K.  (1780?); O. P. H.
  3. pundent (2)
  4. regional distribution
  5. regional distribution?
  6. Fred Cassidy
  7. pundent -Reply (2)
  8. Request for help with Ozark sources
  9. oops, blast, and various obscenities (2)
 10. bottles of beer
 11. "pulkes"? (4)
 12. reader needed
 13. go with (7)
 14. Yiddish?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 May 1998 23:43:25 -0500
From:    Dan Goodman <dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM>
Subject: Regional distribution -- 100 Bottles of Beer....

On ADS-L (the American Dialect Society list), a discussion of regional
variation in "100 Bottles of Beer on the Wall" has started up.

The version I recall (1950's, Ulster County NY -- 10-15 miles west of
the Hudson River, about 100 miles north of New York City):

Ninety-nine bottles of beer on the wall,
Ninety-nine bottles of beer.
And if one of those bottles should happen to fall
There'd be ninety-eight bottles of beer on the wall.

I believe the English version begins with "Ten green bottles".

And then there's the one which begins:

Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall,
Aleph-null bottles of beer.
And if one of those bottles should happen to fall,
There'd be aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall.

(Explanation:  Aleph-null is the lowest possible infinite number; and
one from an infinite number leaves the same infinite number.  For an
explanation of how there can be more than one infinite number, consult
your friendly neighborhood mathematician.)

Has anyone done studies of the relationship between dialect areas and
song versions?

Dan Goodman
dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 02:35:32 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: O. K.  (1780?); O. P. H.

O. K. (1780?)

     This is probably ridiculous, but I think it was missed in Allen Walker
Read's "O. K." series in AMERICAN SPEECH.
      It's from the New-York Commercial Advertiser (an important newspaper), 6
December 1841, pg. 2, col. 2:


_O. K._

      We have at length struck upon the origin of these mystical
letters--stolen last year by the wicked Whigs, as their watchwords, from the
sagamores of Tammany Hall.  It will be seen from the heading of the following
order that these letters formed the countersign of the guards on the 6th of
September, 1780.
                                        "HEAD Quarters, 6th Sept. 1780.
"_Parole_, RICHMOND.  Counter-signs,{O.
                                                         {K.
                Watch-word--FABIUS.
"For the Day, Brigadier Patterson,
                 "Col. H. Jackson,
                 "Col. Badlaw,
                 "Brigade Major Nicholas Fish."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
O. P. H.

       In "The First Stage in the History of 'O. K.,'" AMERICAN SPEECH,
February 1963, pg. 16, "o. p. h." is explained as "but a spelling out of
_off_."  This is repeated in the RHHDAS entry.  However, is there another
explanation?
      One citation is, "Faugh! chips and porridge were a feast to them.
Landlord, you'd better get _died_.  Come, bucks, let's o-p-h."
       This is from the _Pittsfield Sun_, 21 January 1841, pg. 3, col. 3:

     After to-day, (new year's) so far as the girls are concerned, K. K. will
mean _kant kourt_.
     K. K. (_kold konsolation_) as the toper said when he gulphed down a glass
of cold water, for a "suck" of P. W. G. (_phirst wrate gin_)
     Here's the last.  It was got off at a party the other night.  O. P. H.
(_oll phired hungry_)--_Spirit of the Age_.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 05:35:53 EDT
From:    CLAndrus <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: pundent

About pundit: I am in business in NYC, and frequently hear the word pronounced
Pundint. I'm always amazed at American college grads who can't speak their own
language correctly. Example: last week at a business meeting: I don't see that
from your vintage point. Also in a memo someone faxed me because of this
mistake: I can't advise you on this so use your own discrepancy.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 14:03:39 +0200
From:    David Sutcliffe <david.sutcliffe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TRAD.UPF.ES>
Subject: Re: regional distribution

Just to confirm Dan Goodman's remarks on 99 bottles of beer, etc.
In England the song is:
              Ten green bottles hanging on the wall (2 reprises)
              And if one green bottle should accidentally fall
              There'd be nine green bottles hanging on the wall.

Lisa Gilbert, a colleague originally from Washington DC, sang her
version to me ( the New York variant with "bottles subjunctively
falling"). The British tune is different: slower because there aren't so
many words to squeeze in. Lisa's theory, incidentally, is that the Uk
version has only 10 green bottles because average car journeys are much
shorter there.But who knows what happened to the beer.

David Sutcliffe

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 08:33:18 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Regional distribution -- 100 Bottles of Beer....

Speaking of feet (cf. David Sutcliffe's green-bottled British variant),

At 11:43 PM -0500 5/4/98, Dan Goodman wrote:
>On ADS-L (the American Dialect Society list), a discussion of regional
>variation in "100 Bottles of Beer on the Wall" has started up.
>
>The version I recall (1950's, Ulster County NY -- 10-15 miles west of
>the Hudson River, about 100 miles north of New York City):
>
>Ninety-nine bottles of beer on the wall,
>Ninety-nine bottles of beer.
>And if one of those bottles should happen to fall
>There'd be ninety-eight bottles of beer on the wall.
>

My NYC version I mentioned yesterday--while essentially the same,
subjunctive and all--has slightly fewer feet and slightly more elliptical
syntax:

...
If one of those bottles should happen to fall
Ninety-eight bottles of beer on the wall.

>And then there's the one which begins:
>
>Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall,
>Aleph-null bottles of beer.
>And if one of those bottles should happen to fall,
>There'd be aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall.
>
Love it.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 08:48:00 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: pundent

At 5:24 PM -0500 5/4/98, Mark Mandel wrote:
>Rather like "tenets" becoming "tenants", which I've noticed a lot. I can
>sort of see "tenant" as a case of thinking you hear
>a familiar word in an unfamiliar context, but what the heck, English is
>full of weird homophones, it must be the word I
>know. But "pundent" admits of no such explanation. However, there are
>plenty of English words ending in /[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nt/ ([AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] =
>schwa), and not many ending in /It ~ [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]t/. But the strongest candidate of
>all, IMHO -- not necessarily acting alone -- is
>nasalization spreading from the first /n/. Discussion?
>
Possible influence from "pungent", which might be taken as applying to the
output of punditry?  (maybe even from "pendant", if we think phonology
and/or grammatical category while ignoring the semantic field.)

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 08:59:26 -0400
From:    David Bergdahl <bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: regional distribution?

>>Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:
>>
>>> My question, though, is how many of you sang (sing?) that with "take one
>>> down, pass it around..." and how many with "If one of those bottles should
>>> happen to fall, (number) bottles of beer on the wall"?
>>
>On suburban L.I. the bottles happened to fall. (We used to go on school
>trips to the city twice a year: once to the Met for an opera--where the
>highlight was to eat at the automat--and once to Ebbitts Field, the Polo
>Grounds or Yankee Stadium.  The trip in school buses always was
>accompanied by "99 bottles of beer on a wall"--we never started with a
>hundred!)
>

 _____________________________________________________________________
bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ohiou.edu                      Ohio University / Athens
http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl         Ellis Hall 114c
tel: (740) 593-2783                     Office hours:
fax: (740) 593-2818                         MTThF 10:10-11 a.m.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 08:55:12 -0500
From:    "Timothy C. Frazer" <mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fred Cassidy

On Mon, 4 May 1998, Joan Houston Hall wrote:

> I'm delighted to be able to report that Fred Cassidy is back in Madison and
> is doing quite well.  He comes in to the office regularly, and is even
> talking about trips to England and the Caribbean this summer.  Thanks to all
> of you who wrote him with your good wishes.
>
Thanks for the glad tidings, Joan.
What is his secret?  If you and he could figure that out, you could bottle
it, sell it, and forget about hiring a fundraiser.  Great news!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 09:27:12 -0500
From:    Herb Stahlke <hstahlke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GW.BSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: pundent -Reply

"pundent" sounds like a morphological analogy.
We don't have many words ending in -[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]t, so
let's change the ones we do have to -[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nt and
make 'm sound more like Good American
English.

Herb Stahlke

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 11:00:01 EDT
From:    AAllan <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Request for help with Ozark sources

Here's a followup on an earlier inquiry.
If you can help with the following, please e-mail her at
anastasiya.egupova[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rz.hu-berlin.de
Thanks! - Allan Metcalf
--------------------------------------
Dear Professor Metcalf:

I am very sorry  for the late answer.

Thank you very much for the immediate reaction to my inquiry. I also
received very useful information  from your colleagues.

Currently I am using PADS 77 and DARE  to find words  with Appalachian and
Ozark regional labels.

I was also able to find some bibliographies on Ozark English. Unfortunately,
the most of the publications  are inaccessible either  in the german
libraries or on the Interent.

I am especially looking for

Adams, Emett (1978): "Pon Honor." In: The Ozarks Mountaineer 26:3

Davis, Lawrence M. (1971): "A Study of Appalachian Speech in a Norhtern
Urban Setting,"  US O. of E. Report OEG-5-70-0046 (509)

Dean, Ernie (1976): "All Things Changing Ozark Folk Speech." Proceedings of
the Conference on Ozark Immigration. Eureka Springs: Arkansas Humanities
Committee

Dumas, Bethany K.(1971): "A Study of the Dialect of Newton County,
Arkansas." Ph.D. Dissertation, University of Arkansas

Elgin, S. (1983): "On Cows, and the Ozark English Auxiliary." In: The
Lonesome Node 3 (2): 9-16

Inge, M. Thomas (1977): "The Appalachian Backgrounds of Billy DeBeck's
Snuffy Smith." In: Appalachian Journal 4:120-32

Would it be possible for you to help me to access  some of these publications?
If it is not possible, please let me know who could help me to find them.

Anyway I am very grateful for the information you have already sent to me
and I thank you very much.

Yours sincerely,
Anastasiya Egupova

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 11:08:33 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: oops, blast, and various obscenities

I am going to have to just plain quit the other list to which I MEANT to post about folding laundry. This is the second time,
and it's just too #$%^&*( embarrassing. I *am* sorry!

-- Mark

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 11:19:15 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: oops, blast, and various obscenities

At 11:08 AM -0500 5/5/98, Mark Mandel wrote:
>I am going to have to just plain quit the other list to which I MEANT to
>post about folding laundry. This is the second time,
>and it's just too #$%^&*( embarrassing. I *am* sorry!
>
>-- Mark

I must say, I tried VERY hard to reconcile that earlier laundry-folding
message with some item relevant to ADS, and finally ended up with the
assumption that I had inadvertently deleted an earlier message introducing
the thread to which it would have pertained.  I stand reassured.      Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 11:29:32 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: bottles of beer

I learned it as "happen to fall". Actually, I first understood it as "hop into fall", and only later got it parsed right. This would
have been at summer camp in upstate NY (upstate being defined for me then as anywhere north of Westchester
County), in the late 50s or early 60s. "Take one down" I learned later.

Then there are the higher mathematics of beer:

        Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall,
        Aleph-null bottles of beer,
        If one of those bottles should happen to fall,
        Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall.

(How many integers are there? An infinite number; specifically, Georg Cantor's aleph-null [written with the Hebrew letter
aleph and a subscript zero]. How many non-zero integers are there? Just as many. Therefore "Aleph-null bottles of beer
on the wall".)

        Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall,
        Aleph-null bottles of beer,
        If aleph-null bottles should happen to fall,
        Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall.

(How many even integers are there? Well, if you list all the integers (all aleph-null of them) and then replace each one by
doubling it, you have a list of all the even integers, and it's the same length as the original list. You can also derive this list
by striking out all the odd integers (all aleph-null of them) in the original list, i.e., taking away aleph-null from aleph-null.
Therefore...)

And, to switch to the other form of the lyric:

        Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall,
        Aleph-null bottles of beer,
        Take aleph-null bottles down aleph-null times,
        Aleph-null bottles of beer on the wall.

(How many prime numbers are there? Aleph-null, apparently. Starting with the list of integers, take away all the powers
of 2 except 2 itself (there are aleph-null of them: 2^2, 2^3, 2^4...). Then take away all the powers of 3 (aleph-null of
them), then all the powers of 5, of 7, and of each of the aleph-null primes in turn. What's left? Why, all the prime numbers
themselves, as well as every number that's a multiple of two or more different primes. Q.E.D.)

And now I'd better sober up and get back to work.

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 10:39:16 -0500
From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
Subject: "pulkes"?

    A  Wall Street Journal article, May 4, 1998, p.A23  ("A Winning
Strategy for Lewinsky, Starr and the Nation") contains "pulkes";  is this a
misunderstanding of the Yiddish word "toches" (rear-end)?.

   The context is: "...counsel can represent Ms. Lewinsky only if he knows
the full truth.  This is no time to be avuncular;  given that Mr. Ginsburg
kissed baby Monica's 'little pulkes,' he may have been unwillng or unable
to do what was necessary to wring a complete and accurate account of events
from her." ---[G. Cohen: 'pulkes' is italicized.]

---Gerald Cohen



gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 11:29:00 CDT
From:    Edward Callary <TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MVS.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: reader needed

colleagues:

i seek a reader for a manuscript dealing with names in
MOBY DICK. if you have capable, willing melvillian colleagues
i would appreciate their email addresses.

thanks for your help.

******************************************************************
Edward Callary, Editor          Phone: 815-753-6627
NAMES: A Journal of Onomastics  Fax:   815-753-0606
English Department              email: ecallary[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu
Northern Illinois University
DeKalb, Il 60115-2863
******************************************************************

    Visit the American Name Society homepage at
        http://www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ans/

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 12:25:35 -0500
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: pundent -Reply

>"pundent" sounds like a morphological analogy.
>We don't have many words ending in -[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]t, so
>let's change the ones we do have to -[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nt and
>make 'm sound more like Good American
>English.

Definently !!

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 14:02:41 -0500
From:    Cynthia Bernstein <bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>
Subject: go with

I have a student interested in study the expression "go with" (without an
object) as in, "I'm going to the store.  Do you want to go with?"

Does anyone know of studies on the subject?  Would you use that expression
yourself?

Cynthia Bernstein
English Dept., Auburn Univ., Auburn, AL 36849-5203
bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.auburn.edu
phone:  334-844-9072
fax:    334-844-9027

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 12:14:21 -0700
From:    "A. Vine" <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: go with

I've never heard it in Texas (Houston), or for that matter in California
(Bay Area).  However I've heard it in New Jersey (Trenton) and on Long
Island (Hicksville).

Interestingly enough, it's pretty close to the German construction, e.g.
"Gehst du mit?"

Andrea

P.S.  Peter (Richardson), do you know if there's any relation?  I
wondered about that when I heard it in English.

Cynthia Bernstein wrote:
>
> I have a student interested in study the expression "go with" (without an
> object) as in, "I'm going to the store.  Do you want to go with?"
>
> Does anyone know of studies on the subject?  Would you use that expression
> yourself?
>
> Cynthia Bernstein
> English Dept., Auburn Univ., Auburn, AL 36849-5203
> bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.auburn.edu
> phone:  334-844-9072
> fax:    334-844-9027

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 15:51:51 -0400
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: go with

We had an exchange on the list about this usage a couple of years ago, I
believe, and I (and others) said then that the expression is really a
two-part (or phrasal) verb, not a verb plus an object-less preposition.
Cf. run up (the flag), come along, sit down....  It's commonly used in
Minnesota (and as far east as Chicago?) and is 'normal' for me, though not
for my Indiana- and Ohio-bred son.  I've speculated that it's derived from
Scandinavian and German influences on the immigrant English of that area
(cf. mit-kommen, a separable verb in German), though I have no proof of
this--yet.

An article in _American Speech_ of Summer '97 discusses this under the head
"Elliptical With" but in fact conflates elliptical prep. 'with' (as in
"coffee with" or "hamburger without") with what the author calls
"adverbial" 'with' and traces the latter to South African English <
Afrikaans (which would have Germanic separable verbs, I assume).  This
muddies the waters unnecessarily and leads the author to conclude that both
uses now have a "low profile" but are still present in "the shadowy,
peripheral registers" of AmerEnglish.  The references to the piece may lead
you somewhere (Preston is cited on the phrasal verb), but hopefully not to
this lumping together of jargon, register, and dialect!
                                                                        Beverly Flanigan
                                                                        Ohio out of Minnesota


At 02:02 PM 5/5/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I have a student interested in study the expression "go with" (without an
>object) as in, "I'm going to the store.  Do you want to go with?"
>
>Does anyone know of studies on the subject?  Would you use that expression
>yourself?
>
>Cynthia Bernstein
>English Dept., Auburn Univ., Auburn, AL 36849-5203
>bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.auburn.edu
>phone:  334-844-9072
>fax:    334-844-9027
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 15:20:36 -0600
From:    charles fritz juengling <cjuengling[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STCLOUDSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: go with

>I have a student interested in study the expression "go with" (without an
>object) as in, "I'm going to the store.  Do you want to go with?"
>
>Does anyone know of studies on the subject?  Would you use that expression
>yourself?
Check Dialect Notes vol 2 part 2 page 118.  This is found in the mouth of
nearly every Minnesotan.  It is attributed to German "Gehst du mit?' or
Norwegian "Vil du gaa med?"  I have never heard it anywhere outside of
Minnesota and my wife's family in Oregon.  However, my father-in-law is
from MN, so my wife's siblings must have gotten it from him.  I don't think
it's an Oregonism.  BTW, South African English also has 'go with' where it
is attributed to Dutch/Afrikaans 'meegaan.'  I had never heard of 'go with'
used outside MN or S Af (and my wife's family in Oregon) until the
reference to Trenton and Long Island.
I would never use it.

Fritz Juengling
Foreign Languages and Literature Department
St. Cloud State University
St. Cloud, Minnesota

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 15:43:54 -0500
From:    Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>
Subject: Re: "pulkes"?

>    A  Wall Street Journal article, May 4, 1998, p.A23  ("A Winning
>Strategy for Lewinsky, Starr and the Nation") contains "pulkes";  is this a
>misunderstanding of the Yiddish word "toches" (rear-end)?.

When Ginsburg was first quoted by Newsweek about kissing baby Monica's
pulkes (I think Newsweek spelled it "polkas"), it was the occasion of
much discussion on a conferencing system where I spend time. Apparently
there is a Yiddish word "polkas" or "pulkes" which means "plump little
thighs", and it is most often used in reference to the thighs of chickens
or, jocularly, of babies. Or at least that was the consensus among the
people I was talking with at the time.

Kate Catmull
kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 15:49:14 -0500
From:    Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>
Subject: Re: go with

I often say "come with" (as in "Do you want to come with?") but not "go
with" in Austin, Texas--I think that I hear "come with," too, but I could
be wrong about that.

My husband says "come by me" to mean "come sit by me." This sounds odd to
me (in an endearing sort of way, of course), and I've always thought of
it as a Cajun expression, since he's Cajun. But it now occurs to me it
may not be Cajun at all.

Kate Catmull
kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 16:01:19 -0500
From:    Dennis Baron <debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: "pulkes"?

yes, pulkes are thighs.  I was hoping someone with more yiddishkeit would respond.


dennis



Dennis Baron, Head              <italic>phone: </italic>217-333-2390

Department of English           <italic>fax: </italic>217-333-4321

University of Illinois          <italic>email: </italic>debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu

608 S. Wright Street            http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron

Urbana, IL 61801

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 17:10:09 -0400
From:    David Bergdahl <bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: "pulkes"?

On Tue, 5 May 1998, Dennis Baron wrote:

> yes, pulkes are thighs.  I was hoping someone with more yiddishkeit would respond.
>
This is Englished into "pokeys," at least in my wife's family, Litvaks
from Dayton.  She never heard Yiddish at home but when her grandmother was
dying and had lost her English, she was amazed to learn her father could
sit in the nursing home and converse in Yiddish for hours.
=======================================================================
David Bergdahl          Ellis Hall 114c        Ohio University / Athens
Associate Prof/English  tel:  (740) 593-2783   fax:  (740) 593-2818
                        bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu
                    http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
=======================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 17:37:28 -0500
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: go with

charles fritz juengling wrote:

> Check Dialect Notes vol 2 part 2 page 118.  This is found in the mouth of
> nearly every Minnesotan.  It is attributed to German "Gehst du mit?' or
> Norwegian "Vil du gaa med?"  I have never heard it anywhere outside of
> Minnesota and my wife's family in Oregon.  However, my father-in-law is
> from MN, so my wife's siblings must have gotten it from him.  I don't think
> it's an Oregonism.  BTW, South African English also has 'go with' where it
> is attributed to Dutch/Afrikaans 'meegaan.'  I had never heard of 'go with'
> used outside MN or S Af (and my wife's family in Oregon) until the
> reference to Trenton and Long Island.
> I would never use it.

My wife's speech has both "go with" and "come with".  I noted the usage
when we first met (49 years ago!) and immediately attributed it to some
kind of German influence.  (It may be that I was influenced by the fact
that we were both taking German I, and were in the same class at the
time.)

Eventually, I asked her about where she picked up this expression.  She
attributed it to her (distant in time) Pennsylvania Dutch relatives.
That may have been true, but I always suspected some Minnesota influence
there, too: she spent her first six or seven years in  Moorhead and St.
Paul.  She didn't think it came from her grandmother, born in Germany.
True enough, when I got to know her grandmother, I didn't notice either
"go with", "come with", or any frank Germanisms in her speech.

My wife's grandmother's distinctly un-German English is probably
attributable to her experiences around World War I, when all kinds of
funny things happened to German-derived expressions in U.S. speech.
Historically, Germany was the origin of many (perhaps most) pre-1900
immigrants to Chicago.  In a flurry of demonstrating pure American
patriotism during WW I, thousands of Schmidts became Smiths; hamburgers
were called victory burgers; frankfurters gave way to hot dogs; and on
and on.  The same course of events led to the abandonment of bilingual
ed in Chicago public schools, which until 1916 or 1917 graduated lots of
students whose classes were conducted in German (or Polish or Yiddish,
that I've heard about, and perhaps Italian, besides) all the way through
8th grade.  (And, in those years, eighth grade was as far as many
students ever went: truancy laws only went that far.)

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 18:47:14 -0400
From:    Wendalyn Nichols <wnichols[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RANDOMHOUSE.COM>
Subject: Re: go with

Very common in my area (Seattle and its Scandinavian population; family
background is Dutch/German and used by them in W. Montana) as "come with"
but not "go with."




Cynthia Bernstein <bernscy [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] MAIL.AUBURN.EDU> on 05/05/98 03:02:41 PM

Please respond to American Dialect Society <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

To:   ADS-L [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
cc:    (bcc: Wendalyn Nichols/Trade/RandomHouse)
Subject:  go with




I have a student interested in study the expression "go with" (without an
object) as in, "I'm going to the store.  Do you want to go with?"

Does anyone know of studies on the subject?  Would you use that expression
yourself?

Cynthia Bernstein
English Dept., Auburn Univ., Auburn, AL 36849-5203
bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.auburn.edu
phone:  334-844-9072
fax:    334-844-9027

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 5 May 1998 22:48:40 -0400
From:    "Bernard W. Kane" <bkane[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TIGGER.JVNC.NET>
Subject: Yiddish?

I'm submitting "polke" to Random House for consideration for their next
revise, on the strength of 1) quote in TIME March 2 and 2) one from The New
Yorker April 6, and will make CITES from postings to this list quoting the
WSJ and Newsweek which I don't read, but:
 have European language people noticed that this is another of those
Yiddish expressions that derive not from the basic Middle High German of
its origin but from one of the Slavic languages that those Jews in the big
Eastern movement who wound up in the Russian Pale picked up in their
travels? It's *not* Germanic; I'm hoping I can find it in
Russian/Ukrainian; closest I've come so far is Polish "poledwica" loin =
thigh. Any Slavic language experts help in this etymology?

Bernie Kane
word-finder

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 4 May 1998 to 5 May 1998
**********************************************
There are 8 messages totalling 498 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Scumbag; Spongeworthy; Banana Oil (2)
  2. ADS-L Archive Search
  3. Latest news from ACLS
  4. Law/Principle of Least Effort
  5. Calls for Papers
  6. Among the New Words (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 May 1998 00:39:53 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Scumbag; Spongeworthy; Banana Oil

SCUMBAG

     The best place to look for "scumbag" is on the bathroom wall.
Fortunately, a past president of the American Dialect Society has already
looked.
      Unfortunately, I didn't buy Allen Walker Read's CLASSIC AMERICAN
GRAFFITI (originally published in 1935 but reprinted by Maledicta Press) and
NYU's copy is stolen (perhaps the NYPL's also).  People on this list have it,
though.
      Is there a "scumbag" in there?  Also, did he check women's bathrooms?
      It's interesting to see if this word comes from male or female speakers,
and if it's applied to males or females.  The male/female bathroom separation
makes epithet analysis easier.
      I'd also look for "douchebag," and "sleazebag" and "slimebag" (some
speakers drop the "ball").

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
SPONGEWORTHY

     The RHHDAS doesn't have "Master of Your Domain."  I wouldn't leave out
SEINFELD's "spongeworthy," but I might add it to WAYNE'S WORLD's "We are not
worthy!"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
BANANA OIL

     The RHHDAS has this from 1924.  I was checking Maurice Horn's 100 YEARS
OF AMERICAN NEWSPAPER COMICS for "Abie the Agent," and "Banana Oil" is on page
46, col. 1.
     The "Banana Oil" comic strip by Milt Gross ran in the NEW YORK WORLD from
December 1921 until the end of the WORLD in 1930.  In each strip, someone
would declare "Banana oil!" in the last panel.  Horn writes:

     In 1926 it evolved into the top strip of the author's new Sunday color
feature, _Nize Baby_, distributed by the _World_'s Press Publishing Company.
(...) The expression was adopted throughout the 1920s as a catchphrase
signifying amused disbelief at a really egregious piece of cant, much as the
later and still-used "baloney" that replaced it.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 May 1998 09:05:21 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADS-L Archive Search

At 5:22 PM -0500 5/19/98, Grant Barrett wrote:
>Yesterday I got ambitious and busted up all the digest files into
>individual messages and indexed them with the new ADS-L archive search
>software. There are 13,496 messages, and it's a useful, fast search. I
>think this has the potential to be a useful resource for the savvy
>searcher.
>
>Go straight to the search engine:
>http://www.dfjp.com/spotlight.fcgi
>

This is a GREAT service, more than useful, and not just to the savvy
searcher.  I was just trying to locate my saved file (if any) of our
discussion of the historical present counterfactual (or sportscasterese
counterfactual, or indicative counterfactual) so I could add to it this
example from a sports talk show this morning:

"If Reggie Miller makes half his shots, the Pacers might win last night."

(he was 4 of 13 and they lost to the Bulls by 6, but the point is arguable).

I couldn't find the file on my disk, but I clicked on the URL indicated,
searched "counterfactual", and instantly turned up our discussion from
October 1995, kicked off by a query from Bill Smith--

'David Justice has just made a spectacular catch preventing the
winning run from coming in. The announcer says, "If Justice doesn't
                catch that it's a double and the go-ahead run is in."
Is this general sportscasterese, along with the use of the simple
present for what is going on right now or just Bravesese?'

--and various responses.  Thanks for the great work, Grant.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 May 1998 09:17:04 EDT
From:    AAllan <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Latest news from ACLS

The American Dialect Society is one of the sixty-plus constituent societies of
the American Council of Learned Societies. Representing ADS, I and Richard
Bailey attended the ACLS annual meeting in Philadelphia (along with colleagues
Joan Hall and Luanne von Schneidemesser, representing the Dictionary Society
of North America).

ACLS convenes colloquies on the humanities and social sciences, as well as
doling grants for research. Here's the latest e-news from ACLS headquarters. -
Allan Metcalf

-------------------------------

Here is a preview of the latest news on the Website of the
American Council of Learned Societies: http://www.acls.org.


HIGHLIGHTS OF THE 1998 ACLS ANNUAL MEETING

The 1998 Annual Meeting of the American Council of Learned Societies was held
at
the Sheraton Society Hill Hotel in Philadelphia, PA on May 1-2, 1998.
Approximately 225 people attended, including members of the ACLS Board of
Directors, Delegates of Constituent Societies, members of the Conference of
Administrative Officers, representatives of Affiliate members, representatives
of Associate members, ACLS Fellowship recipients, committee members,
foundation
representatives, and distinguished invited guests.

In business sessions, the ACLS admitted the American Schools of Oriental
Research as the 61st constituent society of the ACLS; Pauline Yu, of the
University of California, Los Angeles, was elected to the Board of Directors;
and ARNOVA, Association for Research on Nonprofit Organizations and Voluntary
Action, was admitted as an Affiliate member.

This was the first Annual Meeting over which John H. D'Arms presided. In a
conversation with ACLS constituent members, President D'Arms emphasized that
ACLS programs and activities must be connected closely to the mission of the
ACLS:  to advance humanistic studies in all fields of learning in the
humanities
and related social sciences, and to maintain and strengthen relations among
the
national societies devoted to such studies.

He considered how ACLS activity in four areas--ACLS as funder, ACLS as
convenor,
ACLS as advocate, and ACLS as collaborator--might contribute to advancing that
mission.  He reported on the results of his efforts to increase funds for
fellowships endowment grants totaling $9m from the Andrew W. Mellon and Ford
Foundations, received early this year, and increased support from the
institutional Associates, who have been asked to double their annual
contribution on the understanding that the incremental funds will be applied
to
the costs of a reinvigorated Fellowship Program of the ACLS.  The Council's
goal
is to double the endowment devoted to fellowships and to double the funds
awarded to scholars annually.  Plans call for only a modest increase in the
number of fellowships awarded but substantial increases in fellowship
stipends.
Mr. D'Arms emphasized that a series of three planning conversations held in
the
early months of his presidency have helped to suggest these immediate, and
other
longer-term, priorities for ACLS.

Both the Delegates and the Conference of Administrative Officers held
programmatic sessions addressing the broad topic "Communities and
Commonalities
in the Humanities."  The Delegates focused their discussion on how the ACLS
can
best use their collective and individual talents.  The Conference of
Administrative Officers heard presentations on "The Production of Ph.D.s and
the
Labor Market" and "Ph.D. Careers Outside the Academy."

ACLS constituents were also pleased to hear from William R. Ferris, Chairman
of
the National Endowment for the Humanities, who voiced his commitment to the
scholarly humanities.

In honor of Charles Homer Haskins (1870-1937), the first Chairman of the ACLS,
each year a distinguished scholar is invited to address the topic of "A Life
of
Learning." The 1998 Haskins Lecturer was Professor Yi-Fu Tuan, J. K. Wright
Professor and Vilas Professor of Geography,
University of Wisconsin, Madison. In a modest and highly illuminating talk,
Professor Tuan offered his distinctive assessment of the life and interests of
a
human geographer.  The Lecture will be made available in the ACLS Occasional
Paper series.

The public session focused on "The Humanist on the Campus:  Continuity and
Change." The speakers--all Fellows of the ACLS--were Denis Donoghue, Professor
of English, New York University; Lynn Hunt, Professor of History, University
of
Pennsylvania; Lucius Outlaw, Professor of Philosophy, Haverford College;
Judith
Shapiro, President, Barnard College; and Robert Weisbuch (Moderator),
President,
Woodrow Wilson National Fellowship Foundation. The presentations will be
published as an ACLS Occasional Paper.

In his concluding comments, President D'Arms acknowledged the valuable support
the Council receives from the colleges and universities which are Associate
members of the ACLS and welcomed the Associates who were represented at the
meeting.  He was also pleased to report the virtually unanimous response from
current and new Associates to increased levels of annual contributions.  He
also
recognized current and former fellows of the ACLS who were in attendance.
President D'Arms asked John Wiley, Provost from the University of Wisconsin,
Madison to speak on behalf of the Associates. Mr. Wiley strongly endorsed
ACLS'
efforts with the Associates and expressed willingness to help with the effort
to
complete the campaign with the current members.

The 1999 Annual Meeting will take place on April 30-May 1, in Philadelphia.

__________________________________________________________________

*AUGUST 1 DEADLINE FOR FULBRIGHT SCHOLAR AWARDS

FULBRIGHT SCHOLAR AWARDS FOR U.S. FACULTY AND PROFESSIONALS:
1999-2000 COMPETITION

Applications are accessible on the CIES website: http://www.cies.org.

--Over 700 grants available for lecturing or advanced research in nearly 130
countries.

--Awards range from two months to a full academic year.

--Openings exist in the arts and humanities, social sciences, natural and
applied sciences, and professional fields such as business, journalism, and
law.

--Faculty at all types of institutions and professionals outside academe are
encouraged to apply.

--Eligibility requirements include:  U.S. citizenship and the Ph.D. or
comparable professional qualifications. For lecturing awards, university or
college teaching experience is expected.  Most lecturing assignments are in
English, though some countries require foreign language skills.

--Applications may also be requested by e-mail: apprequest[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cies.iie.org.

For further information and application materials, contact the USIA Fulbright
Scholar Program, Council for International Exchange of Scholars, 3007 Tilden
Street, N.W., Suite 5L, Washington, DC 20008-3009.   Telephone: 202-686-8677.

Funding for the Fulbright Program is provided by the United States Information
Agency, on behalf of the U.S. government, and by cooperating governments and
host institutions abroad.
__________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 May 1998 10:00:13 -0500
From:    Thomas Creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>
Subject: Re: Scumbag; Spongeworthy; Banana Oil

Scumbag, sleazebag, slimebag, douchebag--do not appar in Read's  Classic
American Graffiti.  Read collected his material largely in 1928 and
1929, and he did not, as far as I know, enter any women's restrooms.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 May 1998 12:06:19 -0500
From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
Subject: Law/Principle of Least Effort

    Once again, I am grateful for Larry Horn's messages on the Law/Princple
of Least Effort.  Here now are some thoughts in regard to his second
message (5/19/98).

     The overall picture I get is of an alleged law/principle with so many
exceptions that one wonders by what justification its existence as a
law/principle is advanced.  Larry writes:
      "In many cases, least effort is violated in parole while maintained
in langue."  [G. Cohen: "langue refers to the standard language and
"parole" refers to any features that deviate from the standard, e.g. slips
of the tongue.]

      If this statement is true, it seems to shake the Law/Principle
severely.  After all, individuals speak individually;  and if their
individual speech isn't subject to the Law/Principle of Least Effort, then
how can one agree with Martinet  (_Elements_, p.167), when he writes:
      "...Here [G. Cohen: i.e, in communication] as elsewhere, human
behavior is subject to the law of least effort, according to which man
gives of himself only so much as is necessary to attain the end he has in
view."
     As for French "pleonastic ne" (where "pleonastic"  is synonymous with
"extraneous"), I fail to see how this  "ne" increases the semantic content
at all.
     So, with the  Law/Principle having holes like a sieve, I would ask:
What evidence do we have that this Law/Principle really exists?  Martinet,
_ibid._, in one same paragraph refers to this feature as a "law" and a
"tendency."  Which is it?  Simply because a few linguists have assumed that
a given law or principle exists does not mean that its existence should  be
accepted without question in later generations.

    Incidentally, here are two items I have written relevant to syntactic
blending and the Principle of Least Effort:
1) "Contributions To The Study of Blending," in: _Etymology and Linguistic
Principles, vol. l: Pursuit of Linguistic Insight_  (ed., Gerald Leonard
Cohen; Rolla, Missouri; published by the editor), pp. 81-94, esp. pp.90-91.
1988.

2) _Syntactic Blends in English Parole_  (= _Forum Anglicum_, vol. 15).
Frankfurt am Main: Peter Lang. l78 pp., with bibliography, where mention is
made of Martinet and Zipf).

--Gerald Cohen



gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 May 1998 13:00:02 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: Calls for Papers

I am trying to get the calls for papers page on the web site organized. I have attempted to cull any calls that should be included from this list, but I fear I have missed some. So, two requests:

1. If you have information on calls that you sent to the list, please forward it on to me directly, gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

2. In the future, besides posting the calls to ADS-L, could you also do me the favor of sending me a copy?

Thanks.

Grant Barret
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 May 1998 16:49:44 EDT
From:    AAllan <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Among the New Words

The chair of the ADS New Words Committee and conductor of the column "Among
the New Words" in American Speech, Wayne Glowka, isn't on ADS-L; but he has
this response to Tom Paikeday's posting of the other day.

-----------------

I have already had some correspondence with Paikeday about this subject.
He has been concerned with some comment made by Jesse Sheidlower that
Paikeday's method of coverage was less thorough than the method that Jesse
has promoted of listing/recording everything that one comes across.

John Algeo counseled me to run with the latest words even if I had only one
citation so that the column could keep ahead of the desk dictionaries,
which now have active new word editors and come out in newer editions
faster than "Among the New Words" can get to press.  A case in point:
Jesse was able to get out new dictionary with "soccer mom" before we were
able to get out the article with the same word.

After some discussion with Connie Eble and Ron Butters, I adopted Ron's
belief that "Among the New Words" is never out of date.  Jesse can't list
citations; we can.  Freed of that pressure, I have been dipping into the
files that I now have and citing words that may now even be obsolete after
five years--like the one you noted yesterday.  I am more interested now in
thematic installments rather than in "coverage"--which, as Samuel Johnson
learned, is impossible.

One could run round and round in this argument for a long time.  Paikeday's
suggestion about three independent citations is arbitrary but useful in
saving the editor a lot of work and a lot of paper.  Electronic searching,
however, makes it very easy to find three independent citations.  When I
was following John's suggestion of keeping ahead of the dictionaries, I was
trying to cite as many words as possible and did not always print all of
the citations available because of space.

It's all a question of what we want: a lot of words or a lot of quotes.
Whatever the case, outside of a hundred or so basic words in our language
the other millions seem to come and go with time and tide and place.

I imagine that a widely used term like "soccer mom" will be as
indecipherable as "bees knees" forty years from now.  However, we will have
it and words like "cyberize" on record for some future harmless drudge's
convenience.

If you feel that it is appropriate to share this note with the list, please
feel free to do so.

Wayne Glowka

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 20 May 1998 17:29:43 -0400
From:    Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: Among the New Words

I just want to respond briefly to some of Wayne's points, quoted
in full below. Tom and/or Wayne are under the impression that I
have somewhere promoted the idea or recording everything that one
encounters. If I have said this, it must have been in a very
different context, since this does not represent my feeling on
the subject.

As a heavy user of "Among the New Words," both in its current
incarnation and in John's collection of the past columns, I will
say that a heavy dose of citations from a wide variety of sources
is extremely helpful. While I do encourage the inclusion of a
promising term based on small amounts of evidence, I think it is
more important to document the popularity of genuinely current
words and expressions. Wayne says below that he has left out some
citations for space reasons, but I think it would make for a
stronger column if popular terms got a proportional share of
citations.

In the case of _soccer mom,_ for example, the amount of ink given
it in ANW--almost a full page--seems justified; as one of the most
prominent terms of that year, a large body of citations will make
that clear to the reader. And forty years from now, that column
may help to convince the reader at that time that its selection
as one of our Words of the Year was appropriate. (As I have written
elsewhere, though, I think that expressions like _bee's knees_ and
perhaps _soccer mom_ will remain part of our cultural identity long
after they've fallen out of active use.)

I do think that each term should be accompanied by at least two or
three citations, from different sources, if possible. With only a
single citation, it is hard to judge whether the term is genuinely
current or nonce, and whether the definition is based on that
single citation or other, unseen ones. Certainly if a word is, in
the editor's opinion, important enough to be included despite
limited evidence, it should go on, but I do not think that "listing/
recording everything that one comes across" is a good model for ANW.

I hope this makes sense; I'm running out the door and just wanted
to put in my $.02.

Best,

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>


Wayne Glowka, as forwarded by Allan, wrote:

> I have already had some correspondence with Paikeday about this subject.
> He has been concerned with some comment made by Jesse Sheidlower that
> Paikeday's method of coverage was less thorough than the method that Jesse
> has promoted of listing/recording everything that one comes across.
>
> John Algeo counseled me to run with the latest words even if I had only one
> citation so that the column could keep ahead of the desk dictionaries,
> which now have active new word editors and come out in newer editions
> faster than "Among the New Words" can get to press.  A case in point:
> Jesse was able to get out new dictionary with "soccer mom" before we were
> able to get out the article with the same word.
>
> After some discussion with Connie Eble and Ron Butters, I adopted Ron's
> belief that "Among the New Words" is never out of date.  Jesse can't list
> citations; we can.  Freed of that pressure, I have been dipping into the
> files that I now have and citing words that may now even be obsolete after
> five years--like the one you noted yesterday.  I am more interested now in
> thematic installments rather than in "coverage"--which, as Samuel Johnson
> learned, is impossible.
>
> One could run round and round in this argument for a long time.  Paikeday's
> suggestion about three independent citations is arbitrary but useful in
> saving the editor a lot of work and a lot of paper.  Electronic searching,
> however, makes it very easy to find three independent citations.  When I
> was following John's suggestion of keeping ahead of the dictionaries, I was
> trying to cite as many words as possible and did not always print all of
> the citations available because of space.
>
> It's all a question of what we want: a lot of words or a lot of quotes.
> Whatever the case, outside of a hundred or so basic words in our language
> the other millions seem to come and go with time and tide and place.
>
> I imagine that a widely used term like "soccer mom" will be as
> indecipherable as "bees knees" forty years from now.  However, we will have
> it and words like "cyberize" on record for some future harmless drudge's
> convenience.
>
> If you feel that it is appropriate to share this note with the list, please
> feel free to do so.
>
> Wayne Glowka
>

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 19 May 1998 to 20 May 1998
************************************************
There are 17 messages totalling 614 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. cod fax (2)
  2. Yiddish and "Abie the Agent"
  3. "Ello" (1848)
  4. Minnesota-area dialect
  5. Ben vs. bin
  6. Thanks for Guy Bailey's email address
  7. bottles of beer (3)
  8. knitted cap -- togie, etc. (3)
  9. Deletion of "to"; 'em (2)
 10. Deleted "to";  'em singular
 11. Deleted "to"; 'em singular

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 May 1998 00:17:21 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: cod fax

     Methinks Shakespeare has nothing to do with it.
     In the 19th century, "cod" was supposed to be a cure for what ails you.
You took cod liver oil and Carter's little liver pills.  People still got sick
and died.
     But they learned that they hated cod!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 May 1998 02:16:46 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Yiddish and "Abie the Agent"

     The comic strip "Abie the Agent" deserves the same treatment that T. A.
Dorgan received with the TAD LEXICON.  The results will document the
historical use of Yiddish in America--you'll find "polkes" and much more!
     Harry Hershfield's "Abie the Agent" ran from 1914-1932 and 1935-1940 in
the NEW YORK EVENING JOURNAL (later the JOURNAL-AMERICAN in 1937) and other
Hearst newspapers.  It's been called "the first of the adult comics in
America," and it centered on a rotund Jewish businessman named Abe Mendel
Kabibble.
    In the book THE HYPERION LIBRARY OF CLASSIC AMERICAN COMIC STRIPS:  ABIE
THE AGENT, 1914-1915 (1977), pg. IX:

     "...anyone who wishes to see the Yiddish handling of American-English as
it was spoken in New York City in the early 1900s needs only to flip the
following pages."

    For example, pg. 7 has "Oy vay!"  OED has a citation, but oy, is it off!
An 1892 citation has only "oi," and the next cite is 1924.
    It would be nice to see when Abie has a "knish," an "egg cream," and a
"bagel mit schmear."
    Yadda yadda yadda.
    The only problem I have is that "Abie" ran in the NEW YORK EVENING
JOURNAL--a publication that neither NYU nor Columbia has.  I try to avoid the
NYPL Research Library because, again:  (1) it's closed Sunday and might be
closed again on Mondays; (2) there are no evening hours; and (3) about 70% of
the copying machines are always broken.  It's research hell.
     However, on Saturday, I might go through a year's worth of "Abie."  A
Kabibble bible might result from it.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 May 1998 02:17:11 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: "Ello" (1848)

     Edward Z. C. Judson (1822-1886; he used the pseudonym "Ned Buntline") was
one of America's greatest slang writers.
     Buntline's 1848 book THE MYSTERIES AND MISERIES OF NEW YORK:  A STORY OF
REAL LIFE is a slang masterpiece.  There is a glossary of "flash terms" and
"slang language" that's used by the RHHDAS--although that work doesn't include
many words.  For example, the first RHHDAS entry for "g'hal" is "1850 (Judson)
_G'hals of New York_ (title)," but "g'hal" is in MYSTERIES on page 111.
      I found "hello" in NYC in 1848, so I decided to go through Buntline's
MYSTERIES as well.  Page 13 has "Hallo, old gal..."
      This is from page 37:

       "'Ello, Charley, my kid! tip us your mawley, vot is'nt new to-night?'
cried old Jack, reaching out his mawley or hand to the new comer."

       In fact, this exact citation is on page 524 ("mauley") of the RHHDAS H-
O!
       "Ello" is elsewhere in MYSTERIES.  It's not "hello," but, as the
British say,  'allo!  Who doesn't drop an "h"?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 May 1998 07:47:34 EDT
From:    CLAndrus <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Minnesota-area dialect

I did a series of business writing seminars in St. Paul a couple of years ago
at a big hospital, and heard the final "with," as, Carol, we're going to
lunch. Are you coming with. Also I noticed a lot of the words are different. I
wanted a drink of water and asked for the water fountain and was sent miles
through this huge hospital to the central courtyard, where there was a huge
water fountain with statues, etc. When I said I wanted a drink, someone
replied..."Oh, you want the bubbler."

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 May 1998 08:46:54 EDT
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Ben vs. bin

In a message dated 5/7/98 6:20:07 PM, you wrote:

<<'Ben' [bEn] is the norm in (again) Minnesota, and probably as far east as
Chicago, according to my many polled students.  I've lived out of Minnesota
for 30+ years now, so I noticed the change from my childhood [bIn] to [bEn]
first in Garrison Keillor: remember his opening song, "I've ben gone so
long ...?  Then I started hearing it in my Mpls. brother, and then my
rural-area nieces, and on and on.  My sister (in Winona, MN) doesn't have
[bEn], so I suspect it started in the Minneapolis area or northward and has
been spreading outward.  Any other thoughts on this spread?  BTW, I discuss
it in my Soclx class as another vowel shift, from British tense [i] to lax
[I] to lowered lax [E]--something like the [e] to [E] (noted by Bergdahl)
to [ae] in "available" that I asked about the other day.  I recall Reagan's
similar lowering in [kael[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fornya] ([E] for me); is this common on the West
Coast?>>

[I] versus [E] in environments before nasals is generally subject to
neutralization  (cf. PIN versus PEN, JIM vesus GEM) and for many speakers the
two phonemes have merged. Speakers who have merged/neutralized the two vary
freely in speech from [bIn] to [bEn]. Speakers who have not merged/neutralized
the two hear BEN and tend to assume that it is an invariant pronunciation.

Also, sentence and word stress affect BEEN, which tends to be lightly stressed
and therefore reduced even for speakers who do not have [I]/[E]
neutralization.

So in short, it may not be accurate to say that  [bEn] is the "norm" in
Minnesota: it is more likely  that speakers say both [bIn] and [bEn]--that
free variation is the norm.

Also, at least part of the reduction of [ae] in CALIFORNIA must be stress-
related. The main stress is on the FOR, and [ae] will therefore tend to become
less tense (or, rather, more lax). Still, the lowering of [ae] to [E] before
liquids is not particularly new--cf. WHEELBARROW is typically [wilbEro].  By
the way, Ronald Reagan was not a native Californian (there aren't that many
85-year-old native Californians in anyi case). The Midwest--most particularly,
lower Illinois (where [wilbEro] is normal)--must take the blame for his
spawning.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 May 1998 11:27:35 -0500
From:    Thomas Klein <kleint[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU>
Subject: Thanks for Guy Bailey's email address

Hello everybody:


Thanks very much to all the respondents to my query about Guy Bailey's
email address. It's gbailey[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utsa.edu

Best,

Thomas Klein

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 May 1998 11:42:17 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: bottles of beer

>>>>> Andrea Vine <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM> writes >>>>>

 [...]  So I asked [my English source] in what situation he would sing it:  at a football game, in a pub?  To which he
replied, "On long, boring coach trips when there's bugger-all else to do."
 <<<<<

Which is exactly the context in which I learned it: bus (= "coach"?) trips, or sometimes hikes. (But on hikes we had the
danger of thirst from so much singing, breathing in the dust our feet kicked up from the road. Not that we were old
enough for beer.)

>>>>> Wendalyn Nichols <wnichols[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RANDOMHOUSE.COM> adds >>>>>

Or on a fairly short coach trip, if the back of the coach is full of completely legless lager louts
 <<<<<

I assume that "lager louts" are loutish because they're full of brew.
"Legless" = 'too drunk to stand up'?

-- Mark

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 May 1998 11:33:39 -0500
From:    Dan Goodman <dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM>
Subject: knitted cap -- togie, etc.

> Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 10:40:17 -0500
> From:    KRISTEN BRANSCUM <branskr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>
> Subject: Togie
>
> I am writing a paper on the differnt words people in the U.S. have for
> their winter hat.  The origin of calling it toboggan is because when
> people ride toboggans, it's winter and they have to wear this knit hat to
> keep warm.  But, I have been getting names such as togie, skull hat, and
> stocking hat and was wondering if there was a particular region or race
> that these words developed from.  Thanks for any help you can give.

Watchcap.  I'm from a rural area in Upstate New York; Ulster County
(between Accord and Kerhonkson).  Born 1943.

I don't recall ever hearing _any_ of the words you list.  I do recall
it being called a stocking cap.  That was in Los Angeles, where it's
not a common article of apparel.  Think I heard it from a native of
northern Florida (a bit south of Georgia) -- another place where it's
not likely to be a common article of apparel.

By the way -- I grew up saying "sled" rather than "toboggan".

Dan Goodman
dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 May 1998 10:27:00 -0700
From:    "A. Vine" <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: knitted cap -- togie, etc.

>
> By the way -- I grew up saying "sled" rather than "toboggan".
>

I thought they were different entities.  Toboggans don't have runners.
Of course, we didn't do much of either in Houston...

Andrea

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 May 1998 10:31:45 -0700
From:    "A. Vine" <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: bottles of beer

Mark Mandel wrote:
>
> >>>>> Andrea Vine <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM> writes >>>>>
>
>  [...]  So I asked [my English source] in what situation he would sing it:  at a football game, in a pub?  To which he
> replied, "On long, boring coach trips when there's bugger-all else to do."
>  <<<<<
>
> Which is exactly the context in which I learned it: bus (= "coach"?)

Yes, 'coach' is Britspeak for a bus which takes long journeys.  British
use of 'bus', at least around Bristol, is restricted to those which
provide transportation amongst marked stops around the city.  Near as I
can tell, anyway.

Andrea

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 May 1998 19:44:21 +0200
From:    David Sutcliffe <david.sutcliffe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TRAD.UPF.ES>
Subject: Re: Deletion of "to"; 'em

I asked about incidence of these features in US speech.

Thanks very much to Mike Salovesh for his reply: a masterly account of a
two, or three-way split between 'em, plural (them), 'em singular ("him)
and 'im (ditto) among white Chicageans. He also confirmed that "to"
deletion as in "I want you folks have..." etc (variant:  "I want you
folks uh have...") were common patterns among Irish Americans in that
city.

(I apologize for not copying the full version; for some reason I can't
do it with out extraneous Spanish words copying too)

My follow-up question is, assuming 'em singular is widespread (?), could
contributors give me a bit more feedback on distribution of "to"
deletion in other places: New York, California, not to mention Minnesota
( since that seems to be a dialect area people are sensitive to). For
what it's worth, my impression is that this feature is on the increase,
and somehow not much noticed.

David Sutcliffe
Universitat Pompeu Fabra
Rambla 30-32
08002 Barcelona

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 May 1998 14:32:42 EDT
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Deletion of "to"; 'em

<<could contributors give me a bit more feedback on distribution of "to"
deletion in other places>>

In some other constructions it is variable, e.g.,

"I will help you find the answer" and "I will help you to find thel answer"

"I will have him call you" and "I will have him to call you" (Causative)
He had his dog die" and "He had his dog to die" (Existential)

However, most folks outside the US South have obligatory TO-deletion with
HAVE, at least when HAVE is used in the causative sense.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 May 1998 16:09:00 -0400
From:    Wendalyn Nichols <wnichols[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RANDOMHOUSE.COM>
Subject: Re: bottles of beer

yes to both queries on lager louts and legless.




Mark Mandel <Mark [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] DRAGONSYS.COM> on 05/08/98 12:42:17 PM

Please respond to American Dialect Society <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

To:   ADS-L [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
cc:    (bcc: Wendalyn Nichols/Trade/RandomHouse)
Subject:  bottles of beer




>>>>> Andrea Vine <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM> writes >>>>>

 [...]  So I asked [my English source] in what situation he would sing it:
at a football game, in a pub?  To which he
replied, "On long, boring coach trips when there's bugger-all else to do."
 <<<<<

Which is exactly the context in which I learned it: bus (= "coach"?) trips,
or sometimes hikes. (But on hikes we had the
danger of thirst from so much singing, breathing in the dust our feet
kicked up from the road. Not that we were old
enough for beer.)

>>>>> Wendalyn Nichols <wnichols[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RANDOMHOUSE.COM> adds >>>>>

Or on a fairly short coach trip, if the back of the coach is full of
completely legless lager louts
 <<<<<

I assume that "lager louts" are loutish because they're full of brew.
"Legless" = 'too drunk to stand up'?

-- Mark

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 May 1998 17:58:57 -0400
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Deleted "to";  'em singular

I wonder if the "99 bottles" variation isn't more generational than
regional?  The responses on the list seemed to be age-graded, and my
polling of my students suggests the same: 20 students in my Dialects class
uniformly rejected my "If one of those bottles should happen to fall" in
favor of "Take one down, pass it around."

On 'to' deletion:  I've heard prep. 'to' deleted in southern Ohio, but I'm
not aware of deleted infin. 'to', beyond the general ones noted by Ron.
"I'm gonna go store" would be an example of zero prep. 'to.'  There could
be a very reduced 'to' in there, I suppose, as Mike Salovesh noted, but it
would actually be a reduced 'to the,' which is quite a lot to reduce.
Other examples?


At 12:57 PM 5/7/98 +0200, you wrote:
>Dear List,
>
>I note that the "99 bottles...take one down, pass around", and the "go
>with" and "come with" users turned out to have quite complex regional
>distribution in the States. What about the following features which I
>would have thought originally Black and/or Southern:
>
>1) Deletion of _to_ infinitive marker as in "I want you guys have a good
>time"
>
>2) The use of 'em for (h)im in unstressed position. (This question
>assumes that speakers generally have an opposition between schwa and lax
>/I/ in unstressed syllables).
>
>I went to see the Titanic movie recently, and noticed the present day
>characters at the beginning using the deleted "to". These speakers
>sounded more Midland than Southern. =20
>
>I also noticed the male lead, Leonardo di Caprio, regularly using the
>=B4em for (h)im feature, whereas the upper class heroine only used it
>occasionally, otherwise (h)im.
>
>My impression is that deleted "to" in non-southern speech implies
>extreme laid-back colloquial-ness - I've noticed it being used when
>giving orders, as if to soften their impact.
>
>I'd be glad if you could put me right on this, regarding usage,
>distribution, etc. Thanks! I know I can be wildly wrong - for instance
>the other day I assumed "folding laundry" was a lexical item like
>"folding money".
>
>Post script: the film was great, in the full sense of the word. Most of
>the time I wasn't even thinking about pronunciations!
>
>David Sutcliffe
>Universitat Pompeu Fabra
>Rambla  30-32
>Barcelona
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 May 1998 18:40:49 -0400
From:    Wendalyn Nichols <wnichols[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RANDOMHOUSE.COM>
Subject: Re: Deleted "to"; 'em singular

--0__=GeDDEOq2dTRYTFblLOiGw6hmKl2UN5mZ0t3RMcn4ZvIyrnF1CYzJkiU3
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Disposition: inline

I also wonder if the "fall' versus "pass it around" isn't sociological?  It
was frowned upon enough for us merely to be singing about beer as children
in the 1960's, let alone to sing about drinking it instead of letting the
bottles break.




Beverly Flanigan <flanigan [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU> on 05/08/98 05:58:57 PM

Please respond to American Dialect Society <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

To:   ADS-L [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
cc:    (bcc: Wendalyn Nichols/Trade/RandomHouse)
Subject:  Re: Deleted "to";  'em singular




I wonder if the "99 bottles" variation isn't more generational than
regional?  The responses on the list seemed to be age-graded, and my
polling of my students suggests the same: 20 students in my Dialects class
uniformly rejected my "If one of those bottles should happen to fall" in
favor of "Take one down, pass it around."

On 'to' deletion:  I've heard prep. 'to' deleted in southern Ohio, but I'm
not aware of deleted infin. 'to', beyond the general ones noted by Ron.
"I'm gonna go store" would be an example of zero prep. 'to.'  There could
be a very reduced 'to' in there, I suppose, as Mike Salovesh noted, but it
would actually be a reduced 'to the,' which is quite a lot to reduce.
Other examples?


At 12:57 PM 5/7/98 +0200, you wrote:
>Dear List,
>
>I note that the "99 bottles...take one down, pass around", and the "go
>with" and "come with" users turned out to have quite complex regional
>distribution in the States. What about the following features which I
>would have thought originally Black and/or Southern:
>
>1) Deletion of _to_ infinitive marker as in "I want you guys have a good
>time"
>
>2) The use of 'em for (h)im in unstressed position. (This question
>assumes that speakers generally have an opposition between schwa and lax
>/I/ in unstressed syllables).
>
>I went to see the Titanic movie recently, and noticed the present day
>characters at the beginning using the deleted "to". These speakers
>sounded more Midland than Southern.
>
>I also noticed the male lead, Leonardo di Caprio, regularly using the
>
--0__=GeDDEOq2dTRYTFblLOiGw6hmKl2UN5mZ0t3RMcn4ZvIyrnF1CYzJkiU3
Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Disposition: inline
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable


=B4em for (h)im feature, whereas the upper class heroine only used it
>occasionally, otherwise (h)im.
>
>My impression is that deleted "to" in non-southern speech implies
>extreme laid-back colloquial-ness - I've noticed it being used when
>giving orders, as if to soften their impact.
>
>I'd be glad if you could put me right on this, regarding usage,
>distribution, etc. Thanks! I know I can be wildly wrong - for instance=

>the other day I assumed "folding laundry" was a lexical item like
>"folding money".
>
>Post script: the film was great, in the full sense of the word. Most o=
f
>the time I wasn't even thinking about pronunciations!
>
>David Sutcliffe
>Universitat Pompeu Fabra
>Rambla  30-32
>Barcelona
>

=

--0__=GeDDEOq2dTRYTFblLOiGw6hmKl2UN5mZ0t3RMcn4ZvIyrnF1CYzJkiU3--

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 May 1998 18:44:02 -0400
From:    Wendalyn Nichols <wnichols[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RANDOMHOUSE.COM>
Subject: Re: knitted cap -- togie, etc.

stocking cap (northwest, born 1962.)  But this was for the sort with a long
tail and a bobble at the end.  A tight-fitting one was a "knit hat."
And a toboggan had no runners, and was curved upward in the front.




Dan Goodman <dsgood [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] VISI.COM> on 05/08/98 12:33:39 PM

Please respond to American Dialect Society <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

To:   ADS-L [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
cc:    (bcc: Wendalyn Nichols/Trade/RandomHouse)
Subject:  knitted cap -- togie, etc.




> Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 10:40:17 -0500
> From:    KRISTEN BRANSCUM <branskr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>
> Subject: Togie
>
> I am writing a paper on the differnt words people in the U.S. have for
> their winter hat.  The origin of calling it toboggan is because when
> people ride toboggans, it's winter and they have to wear this knit hat to
> keep warm.  But, I have been getting names such as togie, skull hat, and
> stocking hat and was wondering if there was a particular region or race
> that these words developed from.  Thanks for any help you can give.

Watchcap.  I'm from a rural area in Upstate New York; Ulster County
(between Accord and Kerhonkson).  Born 1943.

I don't recall ever hearing _any_ of the words you list.  I do recall
it being called a stocking cap.  That was in Los Angeles, where it's
not a common article of apparel.  Think I heard it from a native of
northern Florida (a bit south of Georgia) -- another place where it's
not likely to be a common article of apparel.

By the way -- I grew up saying "sled" rather than "toboggan".

Dan Goodman
dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 8 May 1998 18:46:47 -0400
From:    Wendalyn Nichols <wnichols[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RANDOMHOUSE.COM>
Subject: cod fax

Here's a response from one of my former colleagues in Britain:

I've been trying to figure out cod as well for some time. I think the 'cod
fax' was a bit of a red herring (while on the subject of fish!). In fact
I'm
not sure what cod fax means, but it was, famously I think, the way Phil
Collins dumped his wife(?). Could be totally wrong about that. I've seen it
since in the sense of fake/phoney - eg, 'cod economics'.

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 7 May 1998 to 8 May 1998
**********************************************
From: Automatic digest processor (5/31/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 29 May 1998 to 30 May 1998             98-05-31 00:00:12
There are 4 messages totalling 255 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. kleenex, sheetrock, and dragon systems; emoticon
  2. Fwd: Kenneth Re: Language Announcement... (2)
  3. Radio Jargon; Jazz

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 29 May 1998 21:52:41 -0700
From:    Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: kleenex, sheetrock, and dragon systems; emoticon

>(BTW)^2 and back on topic, how do YOU pronounce "emoticon"? ...

as if it were spelled emote-a-con, with the initial e lax (ih) and the
middle unstressed i more of an ih than an uh.  Primary stress on the mote.
I guess I don't find it as awkward a clash as you do.

Rima

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 30 May 1998 13:03:32 EDT
From:    Carol Andrus <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd: Kenneth Re: Language Announcement...

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--part0_896547812_boundary
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This is yet another variation on the "Orvell" version I sent not long ago. Let
me know if this is too trite to post.

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To: CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 14:31:54 -0700
Subject: Kenneth and Patricia Langen <langbro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sdcoe.k12.ca.us>:
        Language Announcement...Euro-English
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--------- Begin forwarded message ----------
From: Kenneth and Patricia Langen <langbro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sdcoe.k12.ca.us>
To: Ann and Vaughn Kezirian <vkeziria[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com>,Jim Burton
<SongRight[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>,Corrie Kezirian <ckeziria[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sdcc17.ucsd.edu>,Helen/Coco
<Cocooo1456[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>, Dan Danner <danno[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]adnc.com>,Debi Bray
<Debi1117[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>, George Reioux <greioux[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>,Dave and Dolly
<dlangen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panworld.net>,Dave and Kim Schall <dschall362[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>,Irene
Ruben <IRuben[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>,Eileen Boogay <eboogay[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sdcoe.k12.ca.us>,"Judy C."
<SmpleeRed[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>,"Drew, Jo, Patti,Kim & K.T."
<jferris[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mcc.miracosta.cc.ca.us>,Kristine Rowe
<krisrowe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sdcoe.k12.ca.us>,JAY AND LORRAINE
<JRLAMB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]r150.aone.net.au>,Kelly Steger <liebchenmyluv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]webtv.net>,Richie
and Janice <LANGENZ[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>,maryanne <maryanneraphael[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]juno.com>,Mary
Beth and Jesse <mbnjr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]adnc.com>,Mike Cassidy
<micassio[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sdcoe.k12.ca.us>,Mary Tiesen <mtiesen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sdcoe.k12.ca.us>,Malia
Joy <mlangen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pwa.acusd.edu>,Reggie and Evelyn <regnev[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]juno.com>,Phil
Beckett <pbeckett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]intergate.icoe.k12.ca.us>,Margie Taylor
<shfpds.mtaylor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]co.riverside.ca.us>,RICK <rferris[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hotmail.com>,Robin
Kezirian <rkeziria[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sdcc17.ucsd.edu>,Joan and John <shadobxr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fea.net>
Subject: Language Announcement...Euro-English
Date: Thu, 28 May 1998 20:00:56 -0700
Message-ID: <356E247F.191CF50E[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sdcoe.k12.ca.us>

Language

The European Union commissioners have announced that agreement has
finally  been
reached to adopt English as the preferred language for European
communications, rather
than German, which was the other possibility.  As part of the final
negotiations however,
Her Majesty's Government conceded  that English spelling had some room
for improvement
and has accepted  a five-year phased plan for what will be known as
EuroEnglish (Euro
forshort). In the first year, "s" will be used instead of the soft "c".
Sertainly, sivil servants
will resieve this news with joy.Also, the hard "c"  will be replaced
with "k". Not only will
this klear up konfusion, but  typewriters kan have one less letter.
There will be growing
publik enthusiasm in the sekond year, when the  troublesome "ph" will be
replaced by "f".
This will make words like   "fotograf" 20 per sent shorter.  In the
third year, publik
akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to  reach the stage where
more komplikated
changes are possible. Governments  will enkorage the removal of double
letters, which have
always ben a  deterent to akurate speling. Also, al will agree that the
horible mes of  silent
"e"s in the languaj is disgrasful, and they would go.  By the forth yer,
peopl wil be reseptiv
to steps such as replasing "th" by  "z" and "w" by v.  During ze fifz
yer, ze unesesary "o"
kan be dropd from vords kontaining  "ou", and similar changes vud of
kors be aplid to ozer
kombinations of  leters.  After zis fifz yer, ve vil hav a reli sensibl
riten styl. Zer vil be no
mor  trubls or difikultis and evrivun vil find it ezi tu understand ech
ozer.  Ze drem vil finali
kum tru.  Auf wiedersehen!


--------- End forwarded message ----------

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------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 30 May 1998 15:20:14 -0700
From:    Devon Coles <dcoles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HORIZON.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Kenneth Re: Language Announcement...

No, not trite, but certainly offensive.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 30 May 1998 23:56:18 EDT
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Radio Jargon; Jazz

RADIO JARGON

     This is from SONG HITS, vol. 3, no. 2, July 1939, pg. 25:

_RADIO'S JARGON_
_DROPS OBSOLETE_
_WORDS FOR NEW_
     The Killie Loo bird has gone the way of the Dodo bird.  Ornithologist
don't know a thing about this one because the Killie Loo was a rara avis to
the radio studios.
     The Killie Loo (circa 1929) was an old NBC tag for a flighty coloratura
soprano who sang in florid style.  Well, the Killie Loo is an extinct species
today.  All of which is a way of leading up to the fact that broadcasting
lingo, like crystal sets and battery sets, can become obsolete in radio's
march through the years.
     Take a term like "Down in the mud."  That used to mean low reproduction
volume.  The up-to-date expression is simply "low level," or "not enough hop."
     "Scratches" once referred to noise caused by faulty equipment.  Today,
"frying" is the more descriptive term.
     "Cross-fire" was the expression for telegraph code interference on the
program lines.  At NBC today, it is simply called "leak."
     "Wooden voice" described a voice lacking expression.  A more modern
expression is "cold as ice" or "sings like a statue."
     Listed below are some of the more recent additions to radio jargon:
     _Woofer_:  A breathy singer.
     _Weaver_:  A restless performer who continually changes his distance from
the microphone.
     _Clinkers or Cinders_:  Noises heard on long distance transmission lines.
     _Drooling_:  Padding a program with talk in order to fill the time
allotted for the broadcast.
     _86_:  No good.
     _Going Up the Golden Stairs_:  Auditioning for a prospective sponsor.
     _Carbon Cats or Snitchers_:  Musicians who purloin musical ideas.
     _Whacky Willies_:  Youngsters who applaud by whistling and stomping.
     _Dead Head_:  An unresponsive studio auditor.
     _Shaking the Script_:  Ridding scripts of grammatical errors.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
JAZZ

     This is from SONG LYRICS, vol. 1, no. 1, November 1937, pg. 1:

_JAZZ_
_1900_
_1916_
_1938_
_19??_

By DON GLASSMAN
   IT IS a wonder that the rude beginnings of jazz are not better known.
   The historians got busy about fifteen years after jazz was in full swing,
and hence much valuable data about the pioneers in this field have been lost
forever.
   New Orleans, Memphis, and the Mississippi bayous are alleged to have been
the locale where hot rhythm emerged from the mystic darkness.  This area has
recently been combed for every shred of evidence about the early jazz
movement, but much of the investigation came too late.  The evidence is gone.
   Once in a while you encounter a fellow who participated in those epochal
events that took place in the Delta when the historians were too busy to give
this movement toward a new music their time or thought.  And if this fellow
happens to be in a mood of fond recollection, you may be treated to a first-
person story that bears wide repetition.
   Recently, your correspondent met a veteran band leader who had as much to
do with the origins of jazz music as any person you can name.  He is Nick La
Rocca: hale, hearty, and fellow-well-met after almost thirty years of busy
life in music-making.
   I caught him on the fly a few weeks ago, just after he and his Original
Dixieland Jazz Band had made a special guest appearance on a network program
over the National Broadcasting Company.  He unfolded his story with a rush of
memory that made you think that he was reliving his career in song and music.
   "The Dixieland played its first professional job as a jazz band in 1908!"
said Nick.
   (...)
   Back in New Orleans, about the middle of 1914, The Dixieland was playing
ballyhoo music for a prize fight when Harry James, a Chicago cafe manager,
heard and hired them at once for the Boosters Club, located in the Hotel
Morrison.
   From the Boosters Club the band went to the Schiiler Club, a place on
Chicago's South Side.  And it was there that La Rocca and his melomaniacs
became a front-rank sensation.  The police reserves were called out to control
the nightly crowds that came to hear the weird harmonies and cacaphonies that
make jazz out of music.
   "It was at this place," said La Roccas as he observed the magnificence of
his NBC suroundings, "that I heard the word 'jass' (later spelled 'jazz') for
the first time.  It happened this way: A dance-crazed couple shouted at the
end of a dance, 'Jass it up boy, give us some more jass.'  Promoter Harry
James immediately grasped this word as the perfect monicker for popularizing
the new craze."
   If La Rocca's memory is correct, James was the first man to use the word
'jass' in connection with an orchestra.  He called his headliner the "original
Dixieland Jass Band."
   (_Continued on page 27_) (col. 2-ed.)
   "There is no doubt in my mind," said La Rocca, "that the word 'jazz' is
Northern in origin, for I had never heard the word before that specific night
at the Schiller Cafe in Chicago."

     Nothing new here, but I don't think this article has been cited.  I'll
weigh in on Jazz (and Murphy's Law) with more after the December MLA in San
Francisco.

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 29 May 1998 to 30 May 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (5/28/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 26 May 1998 to 27 May 1998             98-05-28 00:00:37
There are 5 messages totalling 372 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Hello (1834)
  2. Rat Pack Lingo (long!)
  3. "an eager beaver"
  4. $%^&*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]  truncation: ADS-L Digest - 25 May 1998 to 26 May
  5. Food folklore, pt. 1 [very long]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 May 1998 02:52:27 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Hello (1834)

     There's nothing like torching your own theories.
     This is from the CINCINNATI ADVERTISER AND OHIO PHOENIX (although the box
said CINCINNATI ENQUIRER), 21 May 1834, pg. 2, cols. 1-2"

     "LAZY SAM"
     The following story will not be worth the less for being true.  A
Kentucky horse drover being in South Carolina with a drove...
      (...)
      "Hello! Mister, ..."
      (...)
       "Thing?" holloed Job, "why you make me feel sort o' wolfy..."

      For this time period, see, for example, DRAGOON CAMPAIGNS TO THE ROCKY
MOUNTAINS by a Dragoon (James Hildreth) (1830s, reprinted by Arno press in
1973):

pg. 24:  "Hollo there, stranger!"
pg. 28:  "Hollo there, Ben..."

     I would have expected "Hollo! Mister," but "Hello! Mister" is definitely
there in 1834.  It beats the 1848 New York City "hello" and "ello" citations
by 14 years.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 May 1998 02:53:44 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Rat Pack Lingo (long!)

      These are taken from the recent books and magazines about the late Frank
Sinatra.

      From ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY: SINATRA (SPECIAL COLLECTOR'S ISSUE), SUMMER
1998, pg. 67, cols. 3-4:

"Talkin' the Talk" by Nancy Bilyeau
A LITTLE HEY-HEY//A good time--not necessarily sex--in the company of a woman
(otherwise known as a _broad_ or _chick_)
GASOLINE//Jack Daniel's, Sinatra's beverage of choice
GAS//A swinging time--the Pack had a _gas_ of a weekend (Syn: a _ring-a-ding_
time)
GASSER//Person who makes a _gas_ happen
BIRD//Either the male organ ("How'd your _bird_ do last night?") or a _bird_'s
favorite pastime (In 1964's _Robin and the Seven Hoods_, Dean Martin says:
"I'm a _bird_ lover, and I don't mean pigeons")
CHARLEY//What the Rat Packers called one another
THE BIG CASINO//Death (After a doctor shows Richard Conte some ominous X-rays
in _Ocean's 11_, Conte says, "Look, Doc, give it to me straight, is it the
_Big Casino_?")
PALLY//Dean Martin's nickname for everyone, whether a lifelong friend or a
bellhop
CLYDE//All-purpose noun; meaning can be negative (In _Ocean's 11_, Shirley
MacLaine calls out to a friend, "You're wasting your time with that _Clyde_,
honey, he's a lose") or innocuous ("Pass the _Clyde_")
BUNTER//A bore, an undesirable; the anti-_gasser_ (syn: _Harvey_)
ENDSVILLE//What happens to a party overpopulated by _bunters_ and _Harveys_
"I THINK IT'S GOING TO RAIN"//A Sinatra-only call to the Pack that it's time
to leave an _endsville_ happening
THE BIG G//God (In _Seven Hoods_, Sinatra says of Edward G. Robinson's
recently deceased character, "Big Jim has gone to meet _the Big G_.")
GOOD NIGHT ALL//Fair warning to drop a subject (and if it came from Sinatra,
you'd better drop it fast!)

     From SINATRA: A TRIBUTE TO OL' BLUE EYES (Hit Sensations, Fanzine
International), pg. 41, cols. 1-3:

_The Rat Pack Lingo_
BABY:  Used as an exclamation as well as a term of endearment.
BAG:  As in "my bag," a person's particular interest.
BARN BURNER:  A very stylish, classy woman.
BEETLE:  A girl who dresses in flashy clothes.
BIG-LEAGUER:  A resourceful man who can handle any situation.
BOMBSVILLE:  Any kind of failure in life.
BROAD:  Affectionate term for a girl or woman with sex appeal.
BUM:  A person who is despised, most frequently linked to people in the media.
CHARLEY:  A general term for anyone whose name has been forgotten.
CHICK:  A young and invariably pretty girl.
CLAM-BAKE:  A party of get-together.
COOL:  A term of admiration for a person or place.  An alternative word
meaning the same thing is crazy.
CREEP:  A man who is disliked for any reason whatsoever.
CRUMB:  Someone for whom it is impossible to show respect.
DAME:  A generally derogatory term for a probably unattractive woman.  The
word dog is also sometimes substituted.
DIG:  A term of appreciation for a person or thing, as in "I dig her."
DYING:  As in "I'm dying" which means "I'm slightly upset."
END:  A word to signify that someone or something is the very best.
ENDSVILLE:  A term to express total failure, and similar to bombsville.  See
ville.
FINK:  A man who cannot be relied upon, whose loyalties are suspect.
FIRST BASE:  The start of something, usually applied in terms of failure when
someone has failed to reach it.
FRACTURE:  As in "That fractures me," meaning "That's an amusing joke."
GAS:  A great situation as in "The day was a gas."
GASOLINE:  A term for alcohol, more specifically, Frank's favorite drink, Jack
Daniel's Bourbon Whisky.
GASSER:  A man or woman highly admired, considered to be the best or "The
End!"
GOFER:  Someone who does menial jobs or runs errands, as in "go for drinks,"
etc.
GROOVE:  As in "in the groove," a term of admiration or approval.
LET'S LOSE CHARLEY:  A term used among intimates who want to get rid of a bore
in their company.
LOCKED-UP:  As in "All locked-up," a term for a forthcoming date or
engagement, private or public.
LOSER:  Anyone who has made a mess of their life, drinks too much, makes
enemies, etc.
MISH-MASH:  Similar to loser but refers specifically to a woman who is mixed
up.
NOWHERE:  A term of failure, usually applied to a person, viz "He's nowhere."
ODDS:  Used in connection with important decisions, as in "The odds aren't
right," meaning not to go somehwere, accept anything or buy something.
PLAYER:  Term for a man who is a gambler by nature, who makes friends easily,
and never gives up trying.
PUNKS:  Any undesirable, in particular mobsters, gangsters or criminals.
RING-A-DING!:  A term of approval for a beautiful girl, i.e. "What a ring-a-
ding broad!"
SCAM:  To cheat at gambling, as in "Hey, what's the scam?"
SCRAMSVILLE:  To run off.
SHARP:  A person who dresses well and with style.
SMASHED:  A word used to describe someone who is drunk.
SOLID:  Definite, reliable.
SQUARE:  A person of limited character, unhip.
SWING:  To hang out and drink, smoke, sing, generally get real loose.
VILLE:  A suffix used to indicate changes in any given situation.

      From FRANK SINATRA AND THE LOST ART OF LIVIN':  THE WAY YOU WEAR YOUR
HAT (1997) by Bill Zehme, pp. 34-36:

      After taking English lessons from Sinatra, while making _The Pride and
the Passion_, young Sophia Loren could be heard peppering casual conversation
with the phrases: "How's your cock?" and "It was a fucking gas!" (He told her
that _cock_ and _fucking_ were innocent endearments, to be employed freely and
often.  Of Loren, incidentally, Frank liked to say, "She's the mostest!")
Noel Coward, who occasionally moved amid the Sinatra group, was spotted at one
of Frank's performances happily crowing: "It's a gas!  It's a gas!"  Even bona
fide pally Peter Lawford tended to abuse the privileged argot: "Like, we were
getting off the boat the other day in Le Havre," he told an interviewer, "and
this French dame comes up to me and says, '_Etes-vous un Rat?_'  She's asking
me, am I a Rat?  I don't dig.  Then I dig.  She's asking me about the Rat
Pack, you dig?  But there's no word in French for Rat Pack, you dig?"
     _Navigational tips for the uninitiated:_  "A GAS IS A GOOD SITUATION,"
the Leader once translated for Art Buchwald, in an unprecedented act of
decoding.  "An evening can be a wonderful gas.  Or you can have a gas of a
weekend."  Therefore, a GASSER was one who instilled such delight: "Applies to
a person.  He's a big-leaguer, the best.  He can hit the ball right out of the
park."  (More BROADS were gassers than were guys, understandably so.  Should a
gasser do something wonderful, she would be rewarded with the exclamation,
CRAZY! or maybe COO-COO!  When pleased by a pally, meanwhile, Frank showed
approval by remarking, YOU CRAZY BASTARD!)  On the other hands, a BUNTER would
be "the opposite of a gasser...a NOWHERE.  He can never get to first base."
Likewise, there was HARVEY: "A square.  Harvery, or Harv, is the typical
tourist who goes into a French restaurant and says, 'What's ready?'"  CLYDE
was no better, for _clydes_ were DULLSVILLE personified, were instructed to
SCRAMSVILLE, lest they render an evening ENDSVILLE.  Otherwise, _clyde_ was an
all-purpose noun employed when words, wit, or memory failed.  Explained Frank:
"If I want someone to pass the salt, I say 'Pass the clyde.'  'I don't like
her clyde,' might mean, 'I don't like her voice.'  'I have to go to the clyde'
could mean 'I have to go to the party.'"
      If said party cooked, which is to say, was MOTHERY, which is to say, was
wild and wicked, then all present would bear witness to a RING-A-DING-DING
time, after which couples might pair off to make a LITTLE HEY-HEY.  Unless a
FINK had infiltrated the scene to queer the odds.  "A _fink_ is a loser," said
Frank.  "_Fink_ comes from a strikebreaker named Fink who killed his friend
during a strike.  So to me a fink is a guy who would kill his own friends."
(Not exactly.  Actually, "rat" and "fink" can be synonyms--ed.)  (Dead
friends, by the way, bought the BIG CASINO in the sky.)  Further: "If a guy
comes into a room with a broad and someone asks about his wife, the guy will
say, 'GOOD NIGHT, ALL,' which means, 'DROP IT, CHARLEY.'"  Charley, in that
case, would be a fink, or CRUMB.  Thus the phrase LET'S LOSE CHARLEY.  But
then every pally was affectionately called Charley at one point or another,
male or female, and also SAM, but mostly Charley.  (Lawford was Charley the
Seal, for his nicotine cough, or Charley Pentagon or Charley Washington,
because he married a Kennedy.  Sometimes Frank simply called him Brother-in-
Lawford.)  Then again, a CHICK might easily FRACTURE, or amuse, or devastate,
a man who got a load of her nice set of CHARLEYS.  If that man was Sinatra,
and a date was made, then he would be ALL LOCKED UP for that night, so he
would bid his boys adieu, telling them, "TA-TA."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 May 1998 10:03:23 EDT
From:    CLAndrus <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: "an eager beaver"

Many of the old rural/farm expressions are unknown to younger (urban) people
today or they misuse them. I frequently hear "it's a hard road to hoe."  or
"It's a question of whose oxen (ox) is gored." can't think of any more now,
but they turn up all the time, especially here in NYC where many people have
never been to a farm.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 May 1998 10:30:28 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: $%^&*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]  truncation: ADS-L Digest - 25 May 1998 to 26 May

               1998

Would someone kindly send me
        ADS-L Digest - 25 May 1998 to 26 May 1998
preferably in some compacted or encoded form such as PKZIP, WinZIP, or a
 standard form of uuencode. I am trying to
gather enough evidence to convict our mail interface of wanton truncation. The
 copy I received ends with the following,
in discussion that begin with a posting of mine:

 Whether the erroneous string is the result of writer ignorance or haste or
 keyboarder error is not ordinarily possible to
determine.

My thanks in advance.

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 27 May 1998 16:16:39 +0000
From:    Jim Rader <jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: Food folklore, pt. 1 [very long]

This posting deals as much with American folklore and culinary
history as with facts of language, so if you're not interested, close
the message and hit your delete button NOW--don't say you weren't
warned.  These three areas are closely intertwined, so I don't think
the extended discussion that follows is totally out of place on the
list.

A recent posting on the list--at least I think it was this
list--discussed _Buffalo wings_ and their late (alleged) originator.
This led me to do some Nexis searching on _Buffalo wings_ and the
supposed creation of the appetizer itself by Teressa Bellissimo at
the Anchor Bar & Restaurant on the corner of East North and Main in
Buffalo in 1964--a tale repeated many times with slight variations in
the food columns of dozens of newspapers.

The narrative, which I'm not going to recapitulate here, reminded me
of some work I had done on and off on the origins of _Reuben
sandwich_ and _Caesar salad_, which heretofore I've never reported.
The stories behind these three menu items have a common folkloric
outline that I'm sure can be found in tales of the inventions of
other dishes.  The item is always improvised by its creator,
typically late at night, for a group of hungry people, with a small
number of ingredients that happen to be at hand.  The dish is an
immediate success and is placed on a restaurant menu.  It springs
into being without evolution and in an immediately classic form that
later imitators modify and degrade.

The factual origins of culinary items are surely more complex than
the folkloric outlines would lead us to believe, and there are
several historical stages to be distinguished, namely, the
development of the item, the dissemination of the item once it has
reached a certain stage, and--what is of lexicographical
relevance--the naming of the item.

In the case of _Buffalo wings_, the naming is most likely going to
follow the development of the dish by an interval of time.  If
deep-fried chicken wings coated with hot sauce and served with celery
and blue cheese dressing actually originated in the Buffalo area, the
probability is that no one would have thought to call the dish
_Buffalo wings_ until people either inside or outside the region had
become conscious that the dish was regional--likewise, presumably,
with other foods named after places (unless the name was a deliberate
coinage by, say, a particular restaurant).  A Nexis search turned up
1984 as the earliest date for the collocation, but there is an entry
for _Buffalo chicken wings_ in John Mariani's _The Dictionary of
American Food and Drink_ (1983), and Mariani reports that "in 1977
the city of Buffalo declared July 29 'Chicken Wing Day.' "  Calvin
Trillin wrote a piece on Buffalo wings that appeared in the Aug. 25,
1980 _New Yorker_ ("U.S. Journal:  Buffalo, N.Y. An Attempt to
Compile a Short History of the Buffalo Chicken Wing"); it dissects
the subject in considerable detail for anyone interested.  Trillin
makes a fairly convincing case that the dish was popular in greater
Buffalo, but had not yet diffused much beyond it.  He does not use
_Buffalo wing_, only _Buffalo chicken wing_.

The standard _Caesar salad_ legend credits the creation of the recipe
to an Italian immigrant, Caesar Cardini, who operated a restaurant
(or hotel and restaurant in some versions) in Tijuana.  According to
the canonical version, told by Caesar's daughter Rosa, he tossed the
first Caesar's salad on the evening of July 4, 1924.  The most detail
I've been able to find on the supposed background of Caesar Cardini
is in articles in the _Tulsa World_ (July 9, 1997) by Rik Espinosa
(whom I've also spoken to by phone), in _The Santa Fe New Mexican_ (May 28,
1997) by Alan C. Taylor, and in the _Chicago Tribune_ (July 23, 1987)
by Peter Kump.  Caesar was born near Lago Maggiore, Italy, in 1896;
he and his brother Alex emigrated to the U.S. after World War I.  The
Cardini's lived in San Diego but operated a restaurant in Tijuana to
circumvent Prohibition.  The canonical version claims that the
restaurant was frequented by Hollywood stars such as Clarke Gable,
Jean Harlow, and W.C. Fields; if this was ever the case, it isn't
relevant to 1924, when Gable was a young unknown, Fields was still in
vaudeville, and Jean Harlow was 13 years old.  The only person who
actually claims to have dined at the restaurant is Julia Child, who,
according to Paul Kump, said she was brought there by her parents and
ate the salad at its source.  After the repeal of Prohibition (1934)
and the outlawing of casino gambling in Mexico (1935), the Cardini's
sold the Tijuana restaurant and moved to the Los Angeles area.  The
restaurant still exists in Tijuana, though it has changed location a
number of times.  In L.A. , the Cardini's are supposed to have sold a
homemade version of their salad dressing from a store.  In 1948,
Caesar and Rosa began to commercially bottle the dressing, though
because _Caesar salad_ was in the public domain--which suggests it
was pretty well-known--they could trademark only _Original Caesar's_
and _Cardini_.  Rik Espinosa reports "Rosa told me that in 1953, the
Paris-based International Society of Epicures called the Caesar's
Salad [sic] the 'greatest recipe to originate from the America's in
50 years.'"  (Allan C. Taylor gives as a source for the same
information a public relations firm for the dressing manufacturer.)
Caesar Cardini died in 1956.

There are also a number of non-canonical versions of the Cardini
legend:  according to Rik Espinosa, Paul Maggiora, a partner of the
Cardini's, claimed to have tossed the first Caesar's salad in 1927
for American airmen from San Diego and called it "Aviator's Salad."
(Maggiore and the two Cardini's were all veterans of the Italian air
force during the war.)  Paul Kump claims that Diana Kennedy (an
oft-quoted authority on Mexican cooking) had met Alex Cardini in
Mexico City before Alex's death in 1975, and that Alex claimed to
have developed the salad (he too allegedly called it "aviator's
salad").  (For those interested in the culinary details, Alex's
version included anchovies, but that was not the way Caesar made
it--in the canonical telling he got the fishy tang only from
Worcestershire sauce.)  Neal Matthews (_San Diego Union-Tribune_,
March 2, 1995) quotes one Livio Santini, an elderly resident of
Tijuana, who claims he made the salad, from a recipe of his mother,
in the kitchen of Caesar's restaurant when he was 18 years old, in
1925, and that Caesar took the recipe from him.

A totally heterodox origin for _Caesar salad_ appears in the 3rd
edition of _Webster's New World_:  "so named in honor of (Gaius)
Julius Caesar by Giacomo Junia, Italian-American chef in Chicago, who
invented it c. 1903."  Journalists only bring this etymology up to
heap scorn on it (demonstrating by the way their complete
incomprehension of the meaning of "Webster" in dictionary titles.)  Is
anybody out there in Cleveland on ADS-L?  Where did this etymology
come from?

The documentation of the collocation _Caesar salad_/_Caesar's salad_
is thin.  The first cite Merriam has is from the _Britannica Book of
the Year, 1950_, from the article "Fads of 1949":  "In foods, fads
were limited.  Caesar salad was in vogue through the summer and fall,
and slot-machine hot dogs still prevailed in the larger cities" (pp.
273-74).  There have to be earlier cites out there, even if only from
1949, when the salad was supposedly popular (suggesting it had been
regional until then?).  The _Tulsa World_ article includes an
illustration from an old postcard of the Cardini restaurant in
Tijuana; I'm hoping to get a copy of the postcard from Rik Espinosa,
who owns the original.  This would at least document, to my personal
satisfaction, the existence of the restaurant at one of its locations.
(Espinosa, who grew up in southern California, and whose grandparents
owned a hotel in Tijuana two blocks from the legendary restaurant, is
a font of knowledge on Caesar salad lore and the Cardini's, not to
mention Tijuana.)

(to be continued)

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 26 May 1998 to 27 May 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (5/27/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 25 May 1998 to 26 May 1998             98-05-27 00:01:57
There are 9 messages totalling 267 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. "an eager beaver"
  2. names of some towns
  3. RE>"an eager beaver"
  4. Cool beans!--Again
  5. "small time", etc.
  6. new word: speako (2)
  7. Queries (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 May 1998 10:04:48 -0400
From:    frank abate <abatef[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: "an eager beaver"

per my intuition only:

It strikes me that this expression is in less coomon use than years ago .=
 =

Was common when I was a kid, some 30-40 years ago.  Perhaps less popular
because of the vulgar slang sense of beaver.  But still in use.

Frank Abate
OUP US Dictionaries

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 May 1998 10:10:46 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: names of some towns

Can anyone provide pronunciations for the following US town names?

Canaseraga (NY)
Cowiche (WA)
Fordoche (LA)
Maquon (IL)
Newalla (OK)

-- Mark A. Mandel

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 May 1998 10:07:19 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: RE>"an eager beaver"

I would say "eager beaver" is no longer in regular usage, but I'm sure most
 folks would understand it, if it is used. For some reason I have an image of
 new anchors, kindergarten teachers and other cliche-spreading people using it
 the most.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

--------------------------------------
Date: 5/25/98 10:41 PM
To: Grant Barrett
From: Kusujiro Miyoshi
  Quite recently an American friend of mine said to me that the
expression of "an eager beaver" (keen, hardworking and enthusiastic
person) is not used today.  Is it true?  I'll appreciate if anyone
could answer on this matter.

Kusujiro Miyoshi,
Soka Women's College, Japan.
kw900325[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s.soka.ac.jp

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 May 1998 08:37:18 -0700
From:    Judi Sanders <jasanders[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Cool beans!--Again

A couple of months ago, Gerald Cohen asked the list about the origin of "cool
 beans" . . . I still
don't know for sure but this weekend I had the opportunity for dining at Mickey
 D's (because my 8
year olds couldn't possibly miss the latest Beanie Babies) and noticed that
 McDonalds is now using
the expression on their latest "happy meal" bags.  Looks like this expression
 might get new life!

Judi

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr. Judi Sanders
Professor, Communication
Cal. State Polytechnic U., Pomona
The Web:  http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders
The College Slang Page:  http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders/slang
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 May 1998 11:56:39 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: "small time", etc.

Barry Popik writes:
 >>>
     _Origination of Phrases_
     Talking about "small time," "Variety" was the first to use expressions like
 "big time" and "small time."  _Jolo_, when he
didn't care very much for an act, would finish up his reviews with the line,
 "Good for the Small Time."
Later on "Four-a-day," "Three-a-day," "Smallest Time," "Intermediate Time," were
 all expressions originating in "Variety."

 <<<
So, was a "big time" act or theater originally one whose presentation took a
 long time, possibly including backstage prep
and takedown time, and which therefore could only be presented once a day, or
 twice at the maximum? Barry's inclusion
of "four-a-day" and "three-a-day" in the same set as "big time", "small time",
 "smallest time", and "intermediate time"
suggests as much, but at this remove there's no way to be sure.

-- Mark

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 May 1998 14:38:49 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: new word: speako

When you're dictating text to your computer with speech recognition software*,
 and you say "third person plural" and the
screen shows "third person pleural", what do you call this substitution of one
 real word for another? ("Pleural", with
"eu", is a medical term.) For something like a year, maybe longer, SR users and
 developers have been calling it a
"speako", on the model of "typo". I think "talko" was another candidate, but
 "speako" seems to have won out.

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
*   Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 May 1998 18:06:01 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: Queries

I am further updating the ADS web site, including a new look, a little more
 streamlined organization, and a lot of material updates. More about that when
 it goes public.

I need your help, though, to fill out some of the weak spots. I know we're
 coming up on the end of the semester, but a few minutes of your time will be
 greatly appreciated.

1. What is your primary dictionary of choice? Why? If you want to, you can list
 more than one, but list them in the order you use or trust them most. Please
 include author, publisher, title and date published, if you can.

2. What style guide would you recommend most? Why? Please include author,
 publisher, title and date published, if you can.

3. What textbooks do you currently use or recommend? Out of print suggestions
 welcome. Please include author, publisher, title and date published, if you
 can.

4. What video, audio, academically-published, or other supporting materials do
 you use or recommend for study, classwork or as general reference resources?
 This list might include journals, dissertations, dictionaries, phrase books,
 studies, speech transcripts, or anything else that is clearly not a textbook.
 Please include author, publisher, title and date published, if you can. Out of
 print suggestions welcome.

5. Are there any linguistic or dialectic resources that you visit on the
 Internet weekly, or more frequently? Please give the full URL. (I already have
 a huge list of these, but as I am not a linguist or dialectician by trade, I
 might have missed some obvious ones).

6. Would you be interested in seeing the revised site before everyone else to
 check for spelling, grammar, bad links or other errors? Please send me an email
 to that effect, and include the names of anyone you know who has traveled the
 length of the Pan-American Highway, and how I might contact them.

7. Would you describe your behavior as largely prescriptivist or descriptivist
 when it comes to classifying the speech or usage of others?

I will compile these answers in a ranking list (except for number six, of
 course), with explanations and without names. All answers will get a listing.

Thanks so much for your time.

Grant Barrett
ADS Web Geek
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 May 1998 18:45:15 -0500
From:    Thomas Creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>
Subject: Re: new word: speako

Mark Mandel wrote:

> When you're dictating text to your computer with speech recognition software*,
 and you say "third person plural" and the
> screen shows "third person pleural", what do you call this substitution of one
 real word for another? ("Pleural", with
> "eu", is a medical term.) For something like a year, maybe longer, SR users
 and developers have been calling it a
> "speako", on the model of "typo". I think "talko" was another candidate, but
 "speako" seems to have won out.
>
>        Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
> *   Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
>  320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
>            Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

Ward Gilman and I have been collecting these from edited printed sources for
 some time. Our (personal? nonce?) term for them
is "Spelchek error," on the theory that they most often occur in printed matter
 that has been subjected to a spelling
checker, which accepts any string it finds in its dictionary, regardless of
 semantics.  Most frequent items are those
involving peddle/pedal; rain/rein/reign, and the like--homophones.  My theory is
 that most publications have downsized their
copyediting/proofreading departments, so that human eyes never or only cursorily
 check the printed text.  Whether the
erroneous string is the result of writer ignorance or haste or keyboarder error
 is not ordinarily possible to determine.
.

Our term may not be appropriate in the case of unimaginative speech recognition
 software.

Tom Creswell

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 26 May 1998 20:44:20 -0500
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Queries

Grant Barrett wrote:

> 1. What is your primary dictionary of choice? Why? If you want to, you can
 list more than one, but list them in the order you use or trust them most.
 Please include author, publisher, title and date published, if you can.

My wife and I keep lots of Merriam-Webster Collegiates (various
editions) handy near our computers and our favorite sitting-around
places.  We use them for easy reference because we both were reared on
the Collegiate back in grade and high school.  When we have serious
questions, we usually check OED against the MW 3rd International . . .
We give the edge to OED for the usefulness of its citations, but we also
have lots of faith in the 3rd International. From time to time we throw
in the Random House for good measure, and it's good, but we tend to rely
much more on OED and the 3rd.  It's only when we aren't fully satisfied
with OED, the 3rd, and Random House combined that we go to more
specialized stuff (ranging from Partrdige to Maurer to anything else
that we think of that might help).
>
> 2. What style guide would you recommend most? Why? Please include author,
 publisher, title and date published, if you can.
>

I usually revert to the U of Chicago __Manual of Style__ for all-round
guidance.  For the kinds of writing and editing I do, it's reasonably
comprehensive and authoritative.  I've recently taken a good look at the
Merriam-Webster guide, and I've recommended it to students, but there
are several others eqully good.

> 3. What textbooks do you currently use or recommend? Out of print suggestions
 welcome. Please include author, publisher, title and date published, if you
 can.
>

I routinely recommend Kate Turabian's classic __Manual for Writers of
Term Papers, Theses, and Dissertations__ because it seems to help
students with varying levels of problems.  (That's U of Chicago Press,
various editions --  the most recent of which have a coauthor, but I
don't remember who it is.)  Beyond that, my teaching is not in areas
that are directly relevant.

> 4. What video, audio, academically-published, or other supporting materials do
 you use or recommend for study, classwork or as general reference resources?
 This list might include journals, dissertations, dictionaries, phrase books,
 studies, speech transcripts, or anything else that is clearly not a textbook.
 Please include author, publisher, title and date published, if you can. Out of
 print suggestions welcome.
>

Aside from the video "American Tongues", I'll pass on this one.

> 5. Are there any linguistic or dialectic resources that you visit on the
 Internet weekly, or more frequently? Please give the full URL. (I already have
 a huge list of these, but as I am not a linguist or dialectician by trade, I
 might have missed some obvious ones).
>

I have no suggestions -- but I'd love to see your huge list!

> 6. Would you be interested in seeing the revised site before everyone else to
 check for spelling, grammar, bad links or other errors? Please send me an email
 to that effect, and include the names of anyone you know who has traveled the
 length of the Pan-American Highway, and how I might contact them.
>

I'll let those more qualified pick up on the "pre-pub" review.  As for
the Pan-Am Highway, I've not gone the whole length but I am very
familiar with the Mexican and Guatemalan stretches, if that's any help.

> 7. Would you describe your behavior as largely prescriptivist or descriptivist
 when it comes to classifying the speech or usage of others?
>

Depends.  If I'm trying to represent what an individual says, I'm
strongly descriptive.  If I'm talking about language as she is spoke, I
remain descriptivist.  When I'm grading student writing or editing
things prepared for publication I get more prescriptive -- but certainly
not obsessively so.

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 25 May 1998 to 26 May 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (5/26/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 24 May 1998 to 25 May 1998             98-05-26 00:01:07
There are 2 messages totalling 42 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. ADS at NCTE 11/98
  2. "an eager beaver"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 May 1998 09:33:51 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: ADS at NCTE 11/98

I am pleased to announce that ADS will sponsor a session on "Southern
Mountain Speech" at the 1998 annual meeting of the National Council of
Teachers of English, in Nashville, on Friday, November 20, 9:30-10:45 a.m.
We are Session A.34.

We have room for either a third speaker or a discussant (who will respond
to two papers, thus have a substantive role on the program).

If you are interested in either presenting a paper or serving as
discussant, please send mail to me at <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>.

(As you know, neither NCTE nor ADS provides funds for travel,
registration, or accomodations. I can send you details of conference
expenses if you are interested.)

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 25 May 1998 22:21:46 -0400
From:    Kusujiro Miyoshi <kw900325[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S.SOKA.AC.JP>
Subject: "an eager beaver"

  Quite recently an American friend of mine said to me that the
expression of "an eager beaver" (keen, hardworking and enthusiastic
person) is not used today.  Is it true?  I'll appreciate if anyone
could answer on this matter.

Kusujiro Miyoshi,
Soka Women's College, Japan.
kw900325[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s.soka.ac.jp

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 24 May 1998 to 25 May 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (5/25/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 23 May 1998 to 24 May 1998             98-05-25 00:00:50
There are 2 messages totalling 322 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Rock and Roll (long!)
  2. Variety terms; Meet the Press

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 24 May 1998 15:33:19 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Rock and Roll (long!)

     This continues the previous posting on this subject, and the work of
Gerald Cohen and Fred Shapiro on this term.
     This definition is from ROCKSPEAK!  THE LANGUAGE OF ROCK AND POP (1996)
by Simon Warner, pg. 266, col. 2:

     A phrase allegedly coined in the musical sense by DJ Alan Freed--although
actually borrowed from black slang for sexual congress and first used in trade
magazine _Billboard_ as early as 1944--rock 'n' roll was to become the
headline-grabbing popular music of the last half of the 1950s.

     The _Billboard_ citation is not given.  I looked through _Billboard_ of
1943 (for Frank Sinatra items as well) and didn't find it.  However, I did
find many ads for "Rock-Ola."  This is from the Mechanical Music Digest
(http://mmd.foxtail.com/Archives/Digests/199701/1997.01.14.01.html):

David Rockola and the Rock-Ola
By Richard M. Bueschel (buschlhist[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com)

David Colin Rockola was Canadian.  His father worked for a pump company in a
small town in western Canada, and was an inventor.  When Rockola was 14 he
worked in a hotel as a bellboy, and later opened his own cigar store in
Calgary.  When the slot machine that sat on the counter made more money than
the store, he knew his calling.

He went to Toronto to get into the business, and later came to Chicago,
working for the top three slot machine manufacturers:  Mills, Jennings and
Watling.  In 1927 he started his own vending machine company, and soon added
scales.  In 1932 he started making pinball games, and after some serious
failures, finally made it big.

He quickly discovered that people mispronounced his name (which is not
Italian, although the origins have yet to be fully defined, possibly Scotch or
a made-up name) so he kept it personally, and added a hyphen to create Rock-
Ola for business, circa 1929.  He got into the jukebox business in 1935 when
Seeburg, Mills snd Wurlitzer were making a killing with music machines after
Repeal (of the Prohibition laws) and the opening of thousands of taverns in
1933 and 1934.

But Wurlitzer attempted to thwart his entry, and that of anyone else, because
they had such a strong patent position.  So a patent war ensued in which
Wurlitzer and Rock-Ola were bidding against each other to buy all prior art
they could find.  Wurlitzer got most of it, but Rock-Ola did fairly well, too.
That gave both companies back-dated origin dates based on the patent
application and issuance dates of their acquired art.

A lengthy Rockola story (2 chapters) is contained in my book "Encyclopedia of
Pinball, Volume 1" (Silverball Amusements, 1996).  The story of Rock-Ola's
entry into the jukebox business, and the patent wars with Wurlitzer, will be
in my forthcoming book "Let The Other Guy Play It!" (Royal Bell Books, 1997).

Richard M. Bueschel, 414 N. Prospect Manor Avenue,
Mt. Prospect, IL 60056-2046 USA

     Another letter to this Digest
(mmd.foxtail.com/Archives/Authors/Aut59.html) is this:

Pronounce "Rockola" like "Victrola"?
By Robbie Rhodes (rollreq[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]foxtail.com.nospam)

I wrote to the pronunciation editor at Merriam-Webster:

"The direct ancestor of the jukebox is the coin-operated piano, affectionately
but improperly called the 'nickelodeon'; these jolly instruments were made by
both Wurlitzer and Seeburg before they turned to records.

"Right around 1940, I believe, a new jukebox name appeared: Rock-o-la.  Well,
we all thought that it was an invented name, like Victrola and Coca-Cola.  But
it isn't--it's really the inventor's name: David Rockola, a dyed-in-the-wool
American inventor of Italian heritage.  The New York Times had a nice article
about this man several years ago.

"How shall we pronounce the names of the inventor and his jukebox?"

Here's the answer from the dictionary expert:

"Well, this is a poser.  You see, somewhere along the line Mr. Rockola
modified his name, since 'k' isn't normally a letter found in native Italian
words.  Perhaps this was done to his family name on Ellis Island.  In any
case, if the original spelling was 'Roccola,' the pronunciation would be raw-
CO-lah or RAW-co-lah: with Italian there is no way to tell where the stress
goes in a name without asking the bearer, although in most cases it falls on
the next to last syllable.

"I suspect that the anglicized spelling indicates an anglicized pronunciation
for the New World as well, and the most likely anglicization one could choose
would be rock-OH-luh."

Robbie Rhodes, Etiwanda, Calif.

    There is also a website called "Rock en Espanol--Rockola!"
(http://members.aol.com/om/roca.html).
     As for "payola," there was also a scandal in the 1940s, and this is from
Variety, 21 April 1943, pg. 43, col. 3:  "The songplugging payola evil, which
last week resulted in stringent action, including a $1,000 fine to one
professional manager, may be solved by eliminating the 1-2-3 ratings and,
instead, aim for an alphabetical listing of the top 25 'most played' songs, or
the like."
     I'll discuss "top ten" and "top forty" another time.
     Unfortunately I can't show this to you, but a full page ad for ROCK-OLA
Manufacturing Corporation, 800 North Kedzie Avenue, Chicago Illinois appears
in Billboard, 9 January 1943, pg. 82:

It's ROCK-OLA
COMMANDO
for
1943
NEWEST, GREATEST
MONEY-MAKER AND
LOCATION-GETTER
IN THE
Coin Machine Industry
     Although winning the war comes first--and our mammoth factory is fully
converted to war production--we are indeed fortunate in having stocks of the
famous COMMANDO Model Rock-Ola Phonograph available for 1943 through our
nationwide Factory Distribution organization.
     Thousands of COMMANDOS were purchased by America's leading Music
Operators in 1942.  Men of foresight!  For the COMMANDO represents the music
buy of the future...the latest advancements in construction of the automatic
phonograph.
     Buy soon!  Plan ahead, not only for 1943, but for 1944, 1945, and 1946.
Here in COMMANDO you have the newest as well as the best...so new that it will
remain new long after the war is over.

     The classic jukebox machine is shown.  "ROCK-OLA" is front and center.
     An ad on page 80 for a Pittsburgh distributor calls the Commando
"greatest money-maker and location getter in the coin machine business."  An
ad on page 76 for Unbeatable Amplifier states that "Dozens of other great
features make the 1943 Rock-Ola COMMANDO the leading phonograph of all time."
An ad for a New Jersey distributor of the Rock-Ola Commando on page 77:

     And that we are featuring the one Phonograph that has swept the country
like a tidal wave.  Come in and see it today!  Listen to its gorgeous tone!
See how it sparkles and gleams!  Notice its beautiful, true, modern design!
Inspect its precision-perfect, rugged construction!  Get set to be amazed at
this daring, new, better, different, modern 1943 superior phonograph!

     A Billboard article on a Christmas party, "Rock-Ola Party Set Record for
Employee Affair," 16 January 1943, pg. 62, col. 4, noted that the "total pay
roll is rapidly approaching the 4,000 mark in total employees."
     What I'm saying is, simply, that the "Rock-Ola" jukebox was very, very
popular.  It was no small influence to those who played and who wrote music,
and perhaps it caused them to add words such as "rock" and "rocking" and "Good
Rockin' Tonight"--and "Rock 'n' Roll"--to their songs.
    Another jukebox ad caught my attention.  It's in Billboard, 23 January
1943, pg. 67, col. 4, for the Watling Mfg. Co., 4640-4660 W. Fulton St.,
Chicago, Ill.  It states:

    We have a few more
    Rebuilt ROLL-A-TOPS
    left

     The phonograph is not as attractive as the Rock-Ola Commando, but has a
"roll-a-top" for the records.
     Rock-Ola and Roll-A-Top jukeboxes.
     Hm.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 24 May 1998 20:09:24 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Variety terms; Meet the Press

"VARIETY" TERMS

    A few antedates here; it's not rock and roll, but I like it.
    This is from "Lefty's Notebook" by Joe Laurie, Jr., VARIETY, 17 March
1943, pg. 6, col. 4:

Dear Joe,
     There's a lot of words show folks use every day of their lives that they
don't lnow how they originated to apply to the things they are used for.  For
instance the word matinee; how it came to be applied to afternoon performances
is not generally known.  Matinee, meaning "morning time" or "forenoon."
     Some 75 years ago concerts of classical music became popular in Paris,
and were given at 11 in the morning, and therefore called "Matinees
Musicales."  But the fashionable ladies soon found this hour too early and too
exacting following so closely soirees, balls and theatricals of the previous
night.  The hour was changed to noon, then to 1 o'clock and later to 2 p.m.
The success of these concerts prompted the theatre directors to try day
performances also, and they were called "Matinees Theatrales."  From Paris the
custom passed to London, then to America, the name "matinee" being retained.
Of course later on the "small time" added "morning shows" which actors called
"Milkman's matinees."  (not in RHHDAS--ed.)
     _Origination of Phrases_
     Talking about "small time," "Variety" was the first to use expressions
like "big time" and "small time."  _Jolo_, when he didn't care very much for
an act, would finish up his reviews with the line, "Good for the Small Time."
Later on "Four-a-day," "Three-a-day," "Smallest Time," "Intermediate Time,"
were all expressions originating in "Variety."
     (...)
     It was 1936 when the Show World lost three great artists:  Marylin (sic)
Miller, Roxy and Irving Thalberg went "Upstairs."  (RHHDAS has 1969 for "Man
upstairs.")

     We knew that Variety used "big time" and "small time," but I didn't know
that Jolo coined these phrases.  I'll have to read it again for his reviews,
and check my old papers to find Jolo's full name.
     This is from VARIETY, "Lefty's Notebook" by Joe Laurie, Jr., 7 April
1943, pg. 6, col. 4:

Dear Joe:
     Well, according to the calendar, spring is here and the circus will soon
be in town.
     I've always been a pushover for a circus.  I knew a lot of the gang in
the old days and their slang used to get to me.  Here are some real circus
expressions that might be interesting to you.  The number one question in the
craft is:  "Who is the man with the shoes?," meaning who's the boss.  (RHHDAS
?)  "The mill" is where one works.  (carnival use not in RHHDAS)  "Fire Up"
means to eat.  (carnival use not in RHHDAS)  "Cutting up jackpots" is small
talk.  (RHHDAS has Sept. 25, 1943)  "Ironclad" means working with protection.
(carnival use not in RHHDAS)  "On the sneak" is working without protection.
(not in RHHDAS "on the--"; "sneak" ?)  "T. B." is a blank or bloomer, a bad
place to work.  (RHHDAS ?)    "Red one," a good spot to work.  (RHHDAS ?)
"Fuzz" is a copper.  (RHHDAS 1929; this is first carnival citation and is from
"old days")  "A Skin Show" is dancing girls.  (RHHDAS ?)
     "Patch" is a legal adjuster.  (RHHDAS ?)  "Hershey bars" are colored
entertainers.  (RHHDAS has 1945 WWII Gen. Hershey only)  "Geek show" is a
snake show.  (RHHDAS 1928)  "Mitt joint," a fortune teller.  (RHHDAS 1921)
"Working slum," selling novelties.  (RHHDAS ?)  "Punk worker," one who sells
to children, balloons, etc.  (RHHDAS ?)  "Nose trouble" means eavesdropping.
(RHHDAS 1971, 1966, 1964--backwards cites?)  "Donniker" is, of course, the
rest room.  (RHHDAS 1931 "donnicker")  "Putting up paper" is boosting a pal.
(RHHDAS ?)  "Cannon, whiz, or fooster," a pickpocket.  (RHHDAS "cannon" 1909,
"whiz" ?, "fooster" no entry)  "Cat rack queen," girl who runs ball game
concessions.  (RHHDAS no entry)  "Punkins," county fairs.  (RHHDAS ?)
"Gilly," small traveling show.  (RHHDAS 1796 meaning "yokel or ignorant
countryman," but no entry as "gilly show")  A broad is known as a "bree"
(RHHDAS no entry), a guy a "gee" (RHHDAS 1907), a shill is a "stick" (RHHDAS
?), and a sucker is a "monkey" (RHHDAS 1922, from Variety).  "Grind or bally"
means does he have to talk all the time or only before each show.  (RHHDAS
1926 for "grind," 1921 for "bally")  "What's the line?" means how much salary?
(RHHDAS ?)  "Pickle Punks" means a spieler for "live" shows.  (RHHDAS ?)
"Lame brain" worker is a spieler for freak shows.  (RHHDAS 1919)
    (...)
    Of course you heard the one about the dame in a circus who was a
sharpshooter's assistant.  She quit when he got St. Vitus dance.  (RHHDAS ?)

     This is from VARIETY, "Lefty's Notebook" by Joe Laurie, Jr., 26 May 1943,
pg. 6, col. 4:

     Of course, Willie Hammerstein wad the pioneer of the "freak acts."
(RHHDAS has no entry for "freak act")  ...  Harry Hershfield started as a
"chalk talk" artist and became one of the top story tellers of show business.
When vaudeville went, Harry scrammed to the dinnertable and radio.  Talking
about "chalk-talkers"...many cartoonists played vaudeville...  (RHHDAS no
entry)

     This is from VARIETY, "Lefty's Notebook" by Joe Laurie, Jr., 12 May 1943,
pg. 6, col. 4:

     Me and Aggie have been reading in the New York papers about a lot of the
movie stars, that used to be vaudevillians, stopping at the top-notch hotels
in New York with suites of rooms.  Which is as it should be, but it reminded
us of the old vaudeville days when the actors weren't so particular where they
"pecked and padded" (meaning eat and sleep to you muggs who don't understand
vaudeville English).  (RHHDAS ?)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
SWING SHIFT; AROUND THE CLOCK

     In VARIETY, 13 January 1943, pg. 36, cols. 1-4, an ad for the United
Press:

It Swings along
with the Swing Shifts
   American industry is working 24 hours a day to win the war.  A third of the
men and women making this total effort work at night.  They compose the swing
shifts, who breakfast at bedtime and dine at dawn.  They miss much of normal
life.  But United Press sees to it they do not miss the news.  United Press
24-hour radio news swings along with them. keeps them as accurately, quickly
and completely posted as it does listeners during the seven-to-eleven peak
radio hours.  No matter in what part of the nation or at what time Americans
work, United Press across-the-country and around-the-clock radio service
assures them of the world's best coverage of the world's biggest news.

U.P. Around-
The-Clock
RADIO NEWS

    The OED has "swing shift" from 26 March 1943.  I can't find "around-the-
clock" (meaning 24 hours, as in "rock around the clock") in the RHHDAS.
Stuart Berg Flexner's I HEAR AMERICA TALKING has "around-the-clock bombing" on
page 425, but doesn't give the WWII date.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
MEET THE PRESS

     On 7 November 1997, MEET THE PRESS celebrated its 50th anniversary.  It
declared itself the longest-running program in television history.  (see
www.msnbc.com)
     It was the title of a radio program at least four years before the tv
program.  This is from BILLBOARD, 30 January 1943, pg. 8, col. 3:

     "Meet the Press"
  Reviewed Saturday (Hey!  Wait a minute!  SATURDAYS!  "If it's Sunday, it's
Meet the Press."--ed.)  11-11:15 a.m.  Style--Dramatized interviews.
Sustaining on WMAQ (Chicago).
  For some reason, the public attaches a certain amount of glamour to the
newspaper business, and _Meet the Press_ provides an interesting and
entertaining quarter-hour of information about outstanding newspapermen and
women who gather, write, edit and publish the news.  Cleve Conway, NBC
announcer and newscaster, capably conducts the interviews.
  (...)  On subsequent broadcasts cartoonists, columnists, writers and
photographers of papers in the Chicago region will be interviewed.  Program
has excellent possibilities.  _Nat Green_.

    William Safire was on again today--it must be Sunday.

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 23 May 1998 to 24 May 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (5/24/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 22 May 1998 to 23 May 1998             98-05-24 00:00:13
There are 2 messages totalling 38 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Computers and the arts & humanities
  2. Help with frontierish language . .

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 May 1998 23:40:40 -0500
From:    "Timothy C. Frazer" <mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Computers and the arts & humanities

Perhaps another question could be "what can the arts and humanities do to
SUBVERT computer technology?"

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 23 May 1998 13:55:09 EDT
From:    AAllan <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Help with frontierish language . .

How about this, you Westerners? Please reply directly to the questioner.
Your general remarks about the subject might be of interest to ADS-L too.
Thanks - Allan Metcalf

-------------------

..I'm looking for a specialist in the colloquial language of the
Arizona territory circa 1880-1900 to proofread a screenplay.. if not
an expert, maybe a student could take on this, just to help me to
avoid any modern expressions and preserve the authentic language of
the time, (english is not my native language).  There is relatively
little dialog, so it shouldn't take more than an hour or so.  I
would appreciate if you could mail this to the ADS' student list (if
there is such a list, that is).

-- peer
peer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccrma.Stanford.EDU

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 22 May 1998 to 23 May 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (5/20/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 18 May 1998 to 19 May 1998             98-05-20 00:01:19
There are 7 messages totalling 271 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Law/Principle of Least Effort (2)
  2. Single Swallow Summers
  3. Sri Lankan psychologist taxi driver syndrome
  4. "Is it raining out?"
  5. ADS-L Archive Search (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 May 1998 10:05:48 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Law/Principle of Least Effort

At 7:31 PM -0500 5/18/98, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>    I am grateful to Larry Horn for his 5/18/98 message concerning the
>Law/Principle of Least Effort.  It's been a while since I've worked on this
>topic, and I appreciate the update.
>
>    I realize it's risky to advance thoughts without first checking the
>latest literature, but here goes anyway.

Sorry; by calling your attention--and that of others who might have been
interested--to the work I mentioned (not that I'd necessarily classify Paul
1890, Zipf 1935, or Martinet 1962 as exactly hot off the press), I hadn't
intended a pre-emptive strike.  I was just trying to indicate that most
research taking the Principle of Least Effort seriously does look at
countervailing forces as well.  Here's Paul (from the Strong translation of
the second edition of the Principles of the History of Language, 1890, p.
251):

"The more economical or more abundant use of linguistic means of expressing
a thought is determined by the need... Everywhere we find modes of
expression forced into existence which contain only just so much as is
requisite to their being understood. The amount of linguistic material
employed varies in each case with the situation, with the previous
conversation, with the relative approximation of the speakers to a common
state of mind."

Zipf, Martinet, and the others I cited all have some version of
countervailing or antinomic forces operating in the determination of this
equilibrium.

>  I approach the Law/Principle of
>Least Effort from the perspective of my work on syntactic blends, and from
>that work it seemed clear to me that in many instances the above
>Law/Principle is violated by blends.

Right; I'd say that some blends are motivated by what I call the Q
Principle (the hearer-based requirement of sufficiency of informative
content, as opposed to the speaker-based least effort tendency reflecting
what I call the R Principle).  That's what I think is going on, for
instance, in those cases of redundant affixation we were discussing a few
weeks back (unthaw, dissever, reduplicate, irregardless), and I think it
operates in some of your examples.  English "pleonastic negation", as in 'I
miss not seeing you around anymore', and negative concord in general would
reflect this tendency for clarity over economy (as would other varieties of
concord or agreement).  In many cases, least effort is violated in parole
while maintained in langue, the result being that these duplications are
seen as errors, as in your "simultanously at the same time" or
"although...but" examples.


>   To take just a few examples.  There's French  "pleonastic ne," which as
>far as I can tell adds nothing to the content of the message and yet takes
>additional effort, however minimal, e.g.: Il est plus riche que je ne
>pensais. (Literally: He's richer than I didn't think.")
>
>   Secondly, I once heard someone say: "simultaneously at the same
>time"--without his intending  any special emphasis. I've also heard  "It's
>full up," whereas "full" alone would suffice.
>
Expressivity in the latter case, I'd think.  "Full up" is more emphatic
than just plain "full".  Here's Martinet (1962: 140): "The importance of
redundancy does not, of course, invalidate the concept of language economy,
but reminds us of its complexity."  Sounds like hand-waving, to be sure,
but the point is that each case has to be investigated to determine the
nature and force of the interacting principles.  The "ne" of French
embracing negation is a particularly interesting case, because it
represents an intermediate stage in the evolution of negative expression as
described by Jespersen (1917) and others (I have a Zipfian-type account of
this in Chapter 7 of my Natural History of Negation).  What happens in
"Jespersen's Cycle" is the following:  a preverbal negative marker weakens
for (least-effort-based) phonological reasons until it becomes a proclitic,
too negligible (according to the Q Principle) to serve as the sole
indicator of negative force, and it begins to be reinforced by a
post-verbal indefinite or negative polarity marker of minimal quantity,
either of which may spread from a particular context to other verbal frames
(as with Eng. 'not' < 'ne-wiht' [meaning 'no thing/creature'; cf. not a
whit] or Fr. 'pas' [lit. 'step', orig. with motion verbs:  'I didn't walk a
step']).  (Jespersen:  'The incongruity between the notional importance and
the formal insignificance of the negative may then cause the speaker to add
something to make the sense perfectly clear to the hearer'--as they'd put
it in the Oval Office,  "Let me make this perfectly clear:  I ne knew it
NOT!")  Eventually, this reinforcer, with or without incorporated
concordial negation, takes on the primary role of negator, supplanting the
phonetically weakened proclitic, which is now seen as redundant or
pleonastic.  Thus the (temporary) persistence of the "embracing" ne...pas
negation of French, like its counterparts in Middle English and Middle
Dutch, reflects a half-way house in the dialectic between a least-effort
(R-based) tendency toward weakening and simplification and an
information-preserving (Q-based) tendency toward (re)strengthening.  The
proclitic eventually disappears, as happened in English and Dutch and is
happening in colloquial French.  The final stage in the process may be a
movement of the new post-verbal negator to an earlier position before the
verb, to satisfy the "Neg-First" tendency to signal negation as early in
the utterance as possible.  This, of course, makes it a candidate for later
procliticization (cf. "I d'know") and the cycle begins again.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 May 1998 11:32:31 -0400
From:    Thomas Paikeday <paikedtm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ECHO-ON.NET>
Subject: Single Swallow Summers

19 May 1998
        I'm barely Net-literate; I hope this message gets through.
        It refers to Yongwei Gao's comment (Neologisms, No. 3 on May 18) about
"cyberize" a la "Among the New Words" of AMERICAN SPEECH.
        First off, what I'm doing may not be the done thing among friends and
colleagues, but I've a lexicographic axe to grind and grind it I must. So
with all due respect to John and Adele Algeo and their worthy successors,
plus apologies, I differ with ANW on whether one quotation is sufficient
evidence of a neologism.
        To me it seems like announcing summer on the basis of one swallow or
(pardon the hyperbole) making a study on the basis of a random sample of
one. It may be that more than one citation has been collected, but that
with single-cite definitions you can have "multum in parvo" and thus save
space in these hard-pressed times.
        However, when you are adducing evidence (implying that the neologism in
question is current among a considerable number of English users) I feel we
should present at least three cites from different sources, different in
regard to author and souce - this after a sufficient number have been
studied for abstracting a definition.
        Why the "cyberize" definition apparently based on a 1994 cite doesn't
 fit
Gao's 1997 citation may be because of change of meaning, diversification,
etc. But three citations (sorry I don't have any - I stopped collecting
five years ago when I started full-time work on my latest dictionary),
would have justified the entry in its own right for 1994. Some of these
words seem changeable, especially when they are first sighted. Now it would
seem that "cyberize" has become levelled to mean "computerize."
        Thomas Paikeday (paikedtm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]echo-on.net)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 May 1998 12:43:09 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: Sri Lankan psychologist taxi driver syndrome

I think this phrase, and its use, is worth passing on.

(Edited from http://www.overseasjobs.com/97oct01/oz.html)


[Australian] migration Minister Philip Ruddock says the points system used to
 screen immigrants will be toughened, making entry harder for those with
 qualifications in occupations already over-supplied.
The changes address what is seen in the government as the "Sri Lankan
 psychologist taxi driver syndrome" - a crude reference to the problems
 encountered by many skilled immigrants in finding work in their chosen fields.


Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 May 1998 10:58:22 -0700
From:    "A. Vine" <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: "Is it raining out?"

Gerald Cohen wrote:
>
>   A 5/14/98 ads-l message asked:
>
> >Is it due to regional differences that when asking about the weather some
> >say,"is it raining out?" and others simply, "is it raining?"?  why include
> >the "out"?  it's not raining in.
>
>      ----The "out" here possibly originated in sentences of the type "Is it
> nice out?"  (where "out" = "outside" is justifiably used).   Possible
> answer (with transference of "out" from the preceding question):  "No, it's
> raining out." (where "out" is unnecessary). Then the latter sentence could
> be turned into a question: "Is it raining out?"
>
>      In the arcana of general-linguistic theory is a "Law of Least Effort,"
> according to which  speakers use only the minimal effort necessary to get
> their point across.  This so-called law is contradicted by "out" in "Is it
> raining out?"
>


In thinking about this phenomenon, I wonder if there isn't something else at
work here.  Language has sound and rhythm.  If a phrase doesn't sound right to
me, I try to change it so that it does.  Whether something sounds right is
related to a combination of usage I've heard and how a phrase fits in with the
sound and rhythm of the rest of the spoken language.  This was alluded to
indirectly when someone mentioned (I'm sorry, I don't remember who it was) that
"It's raining out" could be in response to "What's it like out?", or something
along that line.

I'm not limiting this to "Is it raining out?"; I've been looking at the many
phrases with redundant semantics which have been posted to the list.

An observation only.
Andrea
--
--------------------
bite the wax tadpole

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 May 1998 14:17:47 -0700
From:    joh.wood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ASU.EDU
Subject: Re: Law/Principle of Least Effort

> > I've also heard  "It's full up," whereas "full" alone would suffice.

In this case I wonder if anyone would agree that the "up" is not redundant but
expresses perfective aspect.  i.e. full up=full and done filling?
Johanna

Johanna Wood
Department of English
Arizona State University
Tempe, AZ 85287-0302 USA

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 May 1998 17:22:34 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: ADS-L Archive Search

Yesterday I got ambitious and busted up all the digest files into individual
 messages and indexed them with the new ADS-L archive search software. There are
 13,496 messages, and it's a useful, fast search. I think this has the potential
 to be a useful resource for the savvy searcher.

Not all of the messages ever sent over ADS-L are available. We have November
 1992 through April 1998, minus three months in 1996 and a month in 1997. Unless
 I've misplaced them, or some other soul has them on file, I don't think they'll
 ever be added.

Some of the links returned will have the digest headers in front of or behind a
 single message (digest headers list all of the subjects of each message sent
 for a 24-hour period to ADS-L). This could mean that only the digest headers
 will contain the keywords you searched for, but not the accompanying message.
 Also, you may sometimes get a digest header all by itself, with no accompanying
 message.

These are a side effects of the programs I ran that split the files up
 automatically, and fair penalties to pay for the more precise results of
 individual messages. Before, we would *always* get complete digests, even if
 only one message in the file contained the keywords we were looking for.

Keep in mind that a search for a keyword includes ALL text in a message,
 including the user name and email address. So a search for "missouri" will
 probably return all of Donald Lance's messages, as his email address is
 "engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]showme.missouri.edu". See the search page for more of the curious habits
 of our search engine.

Finally, I search/replaced all line breaks in each message with a HTML break
 tag, and affixed the .html suffix to each file, so that they would view
 properly in web browsers. Some browsers may not like it that there is no proper
 open/close HTML coding in the document, but you can always Save As text to your
 desktop.

Go straight to the search engine:
http://www.dfjp.com/spotlight.fcgi

Go to the ADS site:
http://www.dfjp.com/ads/index.htm

(My company recently changed its domain name, but either dfjp.com and
 jerrynet.com will take you to the same server, same site).

Again, if you have any questions or problems, please let me know.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 19 May 1998 21:51:09 -0500
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: ADS-L Archive Search

Grant Barrett -- Both those of us who seldom consult the ads-l archives and
those who consult them regularly appreciate your work VERY MUCH.

DMLance

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 18 May 1998 to 19 May 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (5/19/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 17 May 1998 to 18 May 1998             98-05-19 00:00:14
There are 11 messages totalling 358 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Scumbag; Midget/Dwarf; Pop-Up; Valedictory; Hello; Night Hawks; Gal
  2. "Is it raining out?"
  3. -core, Plus Veering Tangents
  4. enqueued
  5. nativisms (4)
  6. ADS-L Archive Search Improved
  7. Query re administration of graduate degrees in Applied Lx
  8. Law/Principle of Least Effort

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 May 1998 22:08:20 -0700
From:    Bill King <wfking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOTNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Scumbag; Midget/Dwarf; Pop-Up; Valedictory; Hello; Night Hawks;
 Gal

If we are to get into this in depth, we'll have to add douchebag as a
semi-parallel term and take into count jazz references to skins as
drumheads and skins as condoms -- or more likely rubbers or
prophylactics.

Let's face it.  A scumbag isn't a gladbag with a capital G.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 May 1998 10:11:45 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Is it raining out?"

At 10:33 AM -0500 5/16/98, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>  A 5/14/98 ads-l message asked:
>
>>Is it due to regional differences that when asking about the weather some
>>say,"is it raining out?" and others simply, "is it raining?"?  why include
>>the "out"?  it's not raining in.
>
>     ----The "out" here possibly originated in sentences of the type "Is it
>nice out?"  (where "out" = "outside" is justifiably used).   Possible
>answer (with transference of "out" from the preceding question):  "No, it's
>raining out." (where "out" is unnecessary). Then the latter sentence could
>be turned into a question: "Is it raining out?"
>
>     In the arcana of general-linguistic theory is a "Law of Least Effort,"
>according to which  speakers use only the minimal effort necessary to get
>their point across.  This so-called law is contradicted by "out" in "Is it
>raining out?"
>
>--Gerald Cohen
>
As any study of the workings of Zipf's Law (the Principle of Least Effort
in its linguistic applications) is careful to observe--including those of
H. Paul, G. K. Zipf, A. Martinet, J. Haiman, and I like to think my own
work in several papers and a book I've written since 1978--this principle
does not operate in a vacuum and indeed is counterbalanced by other
important functional principles, including iconicity (see Haiman),
expressivity (see Henri Frei [1928] on La Grammaire des Fautes), a
sufficiency principle establishing a lower bound on informative content
(see Horn), and the conversational desiderata relating to information
packaging, which I think are relevant here.  As Jerry suggests, the normal
use of "It's raining out" is as a response to a question, although the
neutral query here would have been not "Is is nice out?" but more likely
"What's it like out?"  The "out" in the response is destressed; the
variable for which a value is supplied is not "It's raining/sunny in
[location] X" but with "It's X out."


Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 May 1998 11:24:22 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: -core, Plus Veering Tangents

"Core" as a multi-purpose music suffix has been in my personal vocabulary since
 about 1989 when I began working in college radio. It's kind of like -gate from
 Watergate, but instead of implying political wrong-doing when tacked onto any
 other word, -core implies a level of intensity and/or ferocity in a particular
 form of music.

Its source, as far as I could ever tell, would be from "hardcore," the first of
 the "-cores." Hardcore described the New Punk: strident, screaming, mostly
 unintelligible lyrics; thrashing discordant guitars; hammering staccato drums,
 usually in short, tight songs. Hardcore came about, I believe, in the mid to
 late Eighties, as a lot of the posing and farcical attitudes were stripped away
 from punk and "fuck you" wasn't enough to offend people any more. The music
 began to be perceived as a valid form, and separate from its antecedent.

At some point "hardcore" became kind of like "acid rock": a word misused by
 people outside the scene to apply to rock they didn't like because they
 couldn't find a melody in it. The -core suffix caught on because the
 diversification of popular music had marketers, disk jockeys and bands looking
 for way to define the emerging scenes. Bands have always hated defining
 themselves by saying something like, "We sound like the Hank Williams crossed
 with Husker Du" so the new vocabulary was quickly embraced. There are now a
 dozen major branches of dance, a half dozen kinds of hip-hop, six or seven
 kinds of straight up rock, three or four kinds of country, "pop" versions of
 all of them, and more, and the stuff sells. Check out Billboard's top 100: it
 hasn't been purely rock/pop in more than a decade.

Anyway, I think you'll find that many of the -core words can be attributed to
 failed coinage attempts. I bet most of the -core words would turn up in a
 Lexis-Nexis search a handful of times, each during from its own short period,
 never to be never heard from again.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

--------------------------------------
From: Yongwei Gao
1. Jonathon Green (Neologisms: New Words since 1960) 1991  s definition
for "-core" is  an all-purpose rock music suffix: it includes
thrashcore, grindcore and grunge core  which, of course, means nothing
in this case:

-core        In 1987, G.B. Jones, guitarist for the all-female low-fi
pioneers Fifth Column, coined the term homocore in J.D.s, a Toronto
fanzine, just as queer-punk scenes began to emerge in reaction to the
prevalence of racist and homophobic skinheads within punk. (95/5/18
Rolling Stone p38)           Like its nearest American rap equivalent,
horrorcore#-a ungenre that includes Gravediggaz and Jeru the
Damaja#-trip-hop soaks up the dread and uncertainty of the 90 s and
musically conjures up a kind of paranoiascape: an aural simulation of
the urban environment. (95/5/29 NYT H26)            Another category,
known as Loungecore, consists of orchestral covers of rock songs from
the late sixties and early seventies. (97/4 Esquire p75)

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 May 1998 11:22:45 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: enqueued

>>>>> "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU> writes >>>>>>>>>
Your message has been enqueued and undeliverable for 1 day

A Canadian server was unable to complete delivery of a msg I sent but will try
 off and on for 3 more days.  I'm sure it will
get through to the addressee on Monday when the office it's being sent to stokes
 the ole computer.  (I'm not asking
what's going on; I understand that.  See next comment)

This 'enqueued' (enqued in USian) is reminiscent of the 'undecode' that I posted
 earlier.  Is there a redundancy or a
pleonasm at work here?  There are only two instances here, and we all know it
 takes three trees to make a row, but do
we see a pattern emerging here?  Earlier I joshed about geek grammar, but some
 kind of linguistic principle rather than a
"mistake" must account for these forms.
 <<<<

Pas du tout.*  As I read this word, "en-" is not a negative ("un-" or "in-"),
 but an, umm, insertive? preposition.
        "to enqueue" would = 'to insert into a queue'
as
        "to enroll" = 'to enter (someone) into the roll (=membership/student
 list)'
and
        "to encase" = 'to put (something) into a case or casing'.

"Enqueued and undeliverable" = 'has-been-put-into-a-queue and
 is-unable-to-be-delivered'.
It's waiting on line, as we [ex-]New Yorkers say; you others would say "in
 line"; nothing to do with "on-line services".

* 'Everybody dance'?? ;-)\

-- Mark

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 May 1998 13:25:30 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: nativisms

At 4:34 PM -0400 5/15/98, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>What does this refer to???
>
>At 12:00 PM 5/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Redneckisms in upstate NY?
>>

I'm not sure.  The "you" above is not me; I'd written a post concerning a
nativism in upstate N.Y. (the town of Chili, pronounced to rhyme with jai
alai or High-Life-without-the-f, as I described it in a subsequent post
after being tweaked for my N.E.-centric reference to jai alai), and someone
else posted the response you cite, maybe assuming for some reason that any
"nativism" is ipso facto a "redneckism"--rather than (as we've been using
the term) simply denoting the domestication of a foreign word or name.  Or
maybe it's a joke we're not getting.

larry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 May 1998 09:47:34 +0000
From:    Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: nativisms

On Fri, 15 May 1998 13:46:58 -0400 Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
wrote:

> At 10:15 AM -0700 5/15/98, A. Vine wrote:
> >Larry Horn wrote:
> >> Upstate New Yorkers go nativist with a vengeance.  The Chili that's a
> >> suburb of Rochester is [CHAI lai], as in "jai alai"
> >>
> >> Larry
> >
> >"Jai alai" is regional.  Folks who haven't been in the Northeast
> >probably haven't heard of it.
> >
> >Andrea
>
> Well, I suspect those who've been to the Basque Country have.  But it's
> "the fastest game on Earth", and a good excuse for public gambling in
> these parts (before the more recent reservation casino trend).  The
> local pronunication is bi-, rather than tri-, syllabic, essentially
> High Life without the f.
> I know, I know, folks who don't drink beer haven't heard of THAT.
>
> Larry

Folks who grew up in Southern California (at least, folks of my
vintage) have certainly heard of it.  When I was a kid, we had a book
of matches around our house (in San Diego) for what seemed like years
that had a picture of a stadium, I think in Tijuana, and said, "JAI
ALAI...hili [or highligh?] games."  I took this to mean that there was
a stadium in Tijuana named [dzhe [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]le] (excuse the bastardized IPA)
where they played a game called [hailai].  If I'd thought much about
it, I probably would have figured the stadium also had something to do
with a city called "Allay" that people were always mentioning.

Peter

----------------------
Peter A. McGraw
Linfield College
McMinnville, Oregon
pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linfield.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 May 1998 13:55:14 +0000
From:    Jim Rader <jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: Re: nativisms

I recall hearing Chowchilla (with un-Hispanic spelling to begin
with) pronounced as something like ['chau chi], with two syllables,
when I was in the San Joaquin Valley in 1972.  I've never forgotten
it.

Jim Rader



> California goes nativist too.  Vallejo/VuhLAY-ho,  Vacaville/Vackaville,
> Chowchilla (guess!), SACKremen-o, Loss Annjealous (Loss Angle-ease), and
> Sandy-ay-go are not quite on target.
>
> Here's something to chew on.
> Upstate New York also has several cities and towns with names of foreign
 countries
> and cities such as Cuba, Poland, Norway, Peru, Russia , Madrid, Rome, Naples,
> Salamanca, Waterloo, Lisbon, Warsaw, Paris, Troy, Syracuse, Carthage, Utica,
 and
> Corinth  All of these have English spellings,  but for a subset,  the native
> language spelling is the same as the English spelling.  So, if people use the
> English pronunciation of, say, Cuba, is this  going nativist?
>     Next: Oneida, Oswego, Ticonderoga.
>
> Bill King
>
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 May 1998 13:56:32 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: nativisms

At 1:55 PM +0000 5/18/98, Jim Rader wrote:
>I recall hearing Chowchilla (with un-Hispanic spelling to begin
>with) pronounced as something like ['chau chi], with two syllables,
>when I was in the San Joaquin Valley in 1972.  I've never forgotten
>it.
>
>Jim Rader
>
Actually, there's a wonderful example of just the reverse process in
California, although I've never been able to authentic it.  There's a town
you pass on I-5, in the middle of the nowhere-at-all part of the Central
Valley, called Coalinga.  It's pronounced quasi-Spanish-style
(co-a-LING-ga), although I suppose qua-LEENG-ga would be more "authentic",
but the story (apocryphal or not) goes that it's named for coaling station
A.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 May 1998 15:09:43 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: ADS-L Archive Search Improved

I've been futzing around with the ADS-L search archive and have come up with a
 new, reliable, fast solution that I like. It also accepts multiple keywords to
 refine searches.

It lets you enter keywords separated by spaces to find all of the files that
 have all of your search words. For example, a search for "ebonics" alone would
 return 71 hits, add "africa" and you narrow it to 46 hits, and add "oakland"
 and you get a refined 15 hits.

Your search phrase would look like:

ebonics africa oakland.

There are no commas between the search words, just spaces, although it really
 doesn't matter because the search engine ignores punctuation. The search engine
 assumes you are searching for a fragment of a word. A search for "africa" will
 return all hits for "africa" and "african". In the same way, a search for pop
 will return all hits for "pop," "popik" and "popular," among other words.

The search engine is not case sensitive, and there does not seem to be a way to
 exclude words from the results. Keyword order in the search field does not
 affect the outcome of the search. It also ignores brackets, parenthesis, commas
 and other punctuation.

There are still some tasks I would like to do, like break up each of the digests
 into individual messages. Also, I am not happy with the way each document is
 returned with "No Title," but there are more than 2400 individual digests (and
 about 10,000 individual messages) in the archive and I do not relish the idea
 of editing each one of the titles by hand. As soon as I can figure out an
 automated solution, we'll fix that.

Finally, be aware that the archives are not complete. I have not added the
 digests for April and May, but I will do so shortly.

If you have any questions, please ask them.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 May 1998 17:31:29 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Query re administration of graduate degrees in Applied Lx

I am continuing to look at the administrative organization of graduate
degrees in Applied Linguistics at institutions that do not have
departments of linguistics. If you are a member of a program that offers
such a graduate degree other than through a Linguistic Department, please
write me privately <dumas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu>. I plan to post a summary.

Thanks,
Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 May 1998 19:31:29 -0500
From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
Subject: Re: Law/Principle of Least Effort

    I am grateful to Larry Horn for his 5/18/98 message concerning the
Law/Principle of Least Effort.  It's been a while since I've worked on this
topic, and I appreciate the update.

    I realize it's risky to advance thoughts without first checking the
latest literature, but here goes anyway.  I approach the Law/Principle of
Least Effort from the perspective of my work on syntactic blends, and from
that work it seemed clear to me that in many instances the above
Law/Principle is violated by blends.

   To take just a few examples.  There's French  "pleonastic ne," which as
far as I can tell adds nothing to the content of the message and yet takes
additional effort, however minimal, e.g.: Il est plus riche que je ne
pensais. (Literally: He's richer than I didn't think.")

   Secondly, I once heard someone say: "simultaneously at the same
time"--without his intending  any special emphasis. I've also heard  "It's
full up," whereas "full" alone would suffice.

   Finally (although I have more), I noticed "although...but" in the
Pushkin short story "Baryshnja-Krestjanka";  one or the other could be
dropped with no change of meaning:  "Xotja eto rassmeshilo Alekseja, no
uderzhalo ego ot dal'nejshix pokushenij." = "Although this struck Aleksej
as funny, but (it) restrained him from further (amorous) attempts."

   Is there in fact there is a rational purpose for these seemingly
extraneous features?

--Gerald Cohen




gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 17 May 1998 to 18 May 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (5/18/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 16 May 1998 to 17 May 1998             98-05-18 00:00:28
There are 9 messages totalling 482 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Geekspeak (2)
  2. 2 CFPs
  3. Scumbag; Midget/Dwarf; Pop-Up; Valedictory; Hello; Night Hawks; Gal
  4. Scumbag; Midget/Dwarf; Pop-Up; Valedictory; Hello; Night Hawks;
  5. guilted me
  6. repurposed
  7. Neologisms
  8. BULWORTH anachronisms

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 May 1998 22:12:44 -0700
From:    Gabor Fencsik <gabor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.COM>
Subject: Geekspeak

Donald M. Lance writes:

> "Your message has been enqueued and undeliverable for 1 day"
>
> This 'enqueued' (enqued in USian) is reminiscent of the 'undecode' that
> I posted earlier.  Is there a redundancy or a pleonasm at work here?

I don't think so.

In geek-speak, 'enqueue' is a retronym used to disambiguate software
operations performed on queues.  The verb 'enqueue' refers to the act of
inserting an entry (your mail message, in this case) at the end of the
queue.  'Dequeue' is the act of yanking the message off the top of the
queue and sending it on its merry way.  The error message is alerting you
to the fact that enqueuing was successful, but dequeueing was not.

The word 'queue', used as a verb, would strike the typical journeyman
hacker as ambiguous, which is why 'enqueue' took its place in technical
software documentation. The trouble begins when error messages larded with
such technical terms are indiscriminately dumped on unsuspecting users who
could care less about the innards of the mail forwarding software.

I suspect 'undecode' is a misspelling.  The word was probably 'uudecode',
which is another technical term describing (what else) the inverse of
'uuencode'.  These operations were originally performed by eponymous UNIX
programs, (the 'uu' prefix meant 'Unix-to-Unix') but nowadays are built
into most PC-based mail client software.  This type of encoding is used to
transform image files, sound files, and other non-ASCII files into ASCII
text that can be sent along as mail attachments.  The sender uses
'uuencode' to transform the data into printable gobbledygook; the receiver
performs the inverse operation, and restores the original image file,
sound file, or whatever.  This is necessary to get around the mail
delivery infrastructure of the Net which was originally designed to
transport printable ASCII data only.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 May 1998 00:15:22 -0500
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: 2 CFPs

Thanks for posting the CFPs on ads-l and ans-l.

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 May 1998 09:50:07 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Scumbag; Midget/Dwarf; Pop-Up; Valedictory; Hello; Night Hawks; Gal

     Here's a ton of stuff.  Perhaps "gal," after further research, will turn
out to be the most important dialect entry.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
SCUMBAG

     "Scumbag" appears to be the political epithet of choice.  Dan Burton
recently called President Clinton a "scumbag"--it was all over the news, yet
The New York Times prefered to dance around using the actual word in its
pages.
     In The American Spectator, October 1994, page 16, an editorial discusses
James Carville's use of the term "scumbag" to describe that publication and
its writers.
     Only two song titles came up on a title search:

1972--"Scumbag" in SOMETIME IN NEW YORK CITY/ LIVE JAM by John Lennon.
(Worldcat curiously has "1940-").
1974--'Scumbag" in CREATURES OF THE STREET by Jobraith.

     OED has "scumbag" from 1967 for "condom," and from 1971 for "base,
despicable person."
     The RHHDAS and AMERICAN SPEECH have "douche bag" from 1945.  Maybe Jesse
will tell us what "scumbags" await us in the next volume.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
MIDGET/DWARF

     This was also recently in the news.  Some City of Houston Equal
Employment hiring person used "midget" instead of "dwarf" and had to resign
because of it, I believe.  Several commentators expressed sympathy and stated
that they would have made the same PC faux pas.
     "Dwarf" (1300 or older) is not an Americanism, but "midget" is of
interest.
     The RHHDAS contains many offensive words, but "midget" is not one of
them.  DARE has an 1851 citation for the "midget" fly (also in the DA).  The
word itself comes from "midge," for "mite" or small thing.  "Midget" appears
to be an Americanism from New England.
     OED's first entry is from Harriet Beecher Stowe's OLD TOWN FOLKS (1869),
"little midget of a man."  A title search shows:

1879--THE ROYAL OAK MIDGET (Royal Oak, Mich. serial).
1881--THE MOORESVILLE MIDGET (Mooresville, Ind. serial).
1883--THE MIDGET (Cleveland, Ohio serial).
1884--MIDGET A.B.C. BOOK.
1886--THE MIDGET by Henry Cuyler Bunner (1855-1896).
1887--THE MIDGET (Rascine, Wis. serial).
1887--THE MIDGET (Syracuse, NY serial).
1887--MAGGIE THE MIDGET by Maggie Mitchell, Boyd's Opera House (Omaha, Neb.),
Oct. 17 and 18.
1889--MIDGET (Dayton, Ohio serial).
1880-1899?--THE MIDGET SONGSTER.
1890--THE MIDGET (Manhattan, Kansas serial).
1893--THE GEORGIA MIDGET:  SKETCH OF MAJ. W. C. HEARD.
1894--YALE MURPHY, THE GREAT SHORT STOP, OR THE LITTLE MIDGET OF THE GIANT NEW
YORK TEAM by Billy Boxer.
1901--THE "MIDGET" LONDON.
1901--PLAT OF THE CLAIM OF THE OVERLAND MINING CO. KNOWN AS THE MIDGET LODE,
IN OVERLAND MINING DISTRICT, FREMONT COUNTY, WYOMING.
1908--THE DAILY MIDGET (Kingfisher, OK serial).
1919--THE MERRY MIDGET by Ralph Mayhew.

     For the spread (first use?) of "midget," I'd better look at Barnum's
Museum in New York City--this could antedate the "midget" fly citation of 1851
and would clearly beat Stowe's 1869 cite.  The ENCYCLOPEDIA OF NEW YORK CITY
has this under "Barnum, Phineas Taylor" on page 78:

     Impressario.  In 1841 he took over the site and contents of Scudder's
Museum, a defunct institution at the intersection of Broadway and Ann Street,
and opened the American Museum.  His astute promotion of appearances there by
such performers as the midget Charles Stratton (General Tom Thumb) and the
Swedish soprano Jenny Lind made this the most successful of the many dime
museums in the city.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
POP-UP

     VH-1 has "pop-up" videos.  OED has a 1906 "pop-up" from baseball, then
cites a 1934 "pop-up" from Webster and a 1970 "pop-up" toaster.  "Pop-up"
books began in Germany, but it's not clear when they were called that:

1926--WINNIE-THE-POOH AND THE BEES, A POP-UP PICTURE BOOK by A. A. Milne
(1882-1956).
1878 (1978)--FRANZ BONN'S THE CHILDREN'S THEATRE:  A REPRODUCTION OF THE
ANTIQUE POP-UP BOOK.
1887 (1979)--LOTHAR MEGGENDORFER'S INTERNATIONAL CIRCUS:  A REPRODUCTION OF
THE ANTIQUE POP-UP BOOK.
1890 (1978)--LOTHAR MEGGENDORFER'S THE DOLL'S HOUSE:  A REPRODUCTION OF THE
ANTIQUE POP-UP BOOK.
1890 (1980)--A DAY IN THE ZOO:  REALISTIC PICTURES OF THE BIRDS, BEASTS, AND
FISHES:  A REPRODUCTION OF AN ANTIQUE POP-UP BOOK.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
VALEDICTORY ORATION (continued)

     A Worldcat search shows that William Hutchinson (1683-1721) delivered a
valedictory oration at his Master's Degree commencement at Harvard in 1705.
     Why such the long wait then (about 50 years) for our first
"valedictorian"?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
HELLO (continued)

     In Ann Sophia (Winterbotham) Stephens's HIGH LIFE IN NEW YORK, BY
JONATHAN SLICK, ESQ. (1854):

pg. 47:  "Hello, Cousin Jonathan!"
pg. 265:  "'Hello!' sez I agin."

     The words "gauly-oppalus" (pg. 133), "gaully-oppalus" (pg. 155), and
"gaully offilus!" (pg. 219) were used by Jonathan Slick, but the RHHDAS
doesn't record any such thing, even under "golly."
      At the end of the book, there was an advertisement for Ann Sophia
Stephens's FASHION AND FAMINE (1854), which was "Mrs. Stephens' Great American
Work" and "Most popular book of the day."  One chapter (pg. 267) in the
outline was "The Tombs Lawyer."  I got excited, but alas, no "shyster" in the
entire chapter!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
NIGHT HAWKS

     The book TWELVE DAYS IN THE TOMBS (1851) by Jonathan Harrington Greene
also didn't have "shyster."  On page 180, it quoted a letter from a March 18,
1844 "St. Louis newspaper" that said:

     "...put the 'night hawks' out (meaning the gamblers)..."

      This beats all but one of the many RHHDAS entries for "night hawk."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
GAL

     "Gal" (for "girl") is one of the words I wanted to test on NYU's new
Performing Arts in 1690-1783 Periodicals CD-ROM, but NYU's been closed
evenings and weekends during graduation week.  The RHHDAS and OEDS have 1795.
     Worldcat shows this:

Massachusetts broadside collection
The broadside "Boston, December 1, 1773" in this collection is a later
facsimile "heliotype from the original" reprinted by S. G. Drake (Boston).
(...)
Bloodgood, Harry.  Yaller gal that winked at me.
Boston, December 1, 1773.

     Note "yaller gal," and then check the RHHDAS and DARE citations for
"gal."  The word "gal" for "girl" appears to come from African-American
English.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
BOOGIE (WOOGIE)

      The RHHDAS has 1929 and 1935 citations for "boogie"/"boogie woogie."
It's now clear from these that "boogie" came from ragtime, and ragtime got it
from the popular 1890s word "bogey" or "bogie."  David Shulman recently
studied "bogey" for COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY.

1908--THE BOOGIE BOO by Nat D. Ayer (1887-1952), from the musical comedy THE
NEWLYWEDS AND THEIR BABY.
1912--THE BOOGIE MAN RAG by Terry Sherman (ragtime piano music).
1915--WINN'S HOW TO PLAY POPULAR MUSIC WITH "SWING" BASS:  SHOWS HOW TO USE
THE CORRECT CHORDS FOR PIANO AND EASY BOOGIE WOOGIE BEATS; ENABLES ANYONE TO
PLAY ALL THE LATEST SHEET MUSIC AT SIGHT by Edward R. Winn (Winn chord method
of popular music and modern novelty piano playing, no. 1).
1917--BOOGIE RAG by Wilber C. Sweatman (for dance orchestra).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
MOJO

      The earliest citation in the RHHDAS is 1926.

1923-1928 recordings--MOJO STRUT by Perry Bradford's Jazz Phools on the album
NEW YORK TO CHICAGO 1923-1928.
1924-1926 recordings--MOJO BLUES by Louie Austin and her Blue Serenaders
(another version of this is in 1923-1926 recordings in Chicago for the
Paramount label; "Lovie" Austin is given credit).
1926--LOW DOWN MOJO BLUES by Blind Lemon Jefferson (1897-1929).  The RHHDAS
has a 1928 "Mojo Woman Blues" by Jefferson, but this title is earlier.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY

"The record shows I took the blows and did it my way."--Frank Sinatra.

     "My way or the highway" doesn't seem to be recorded anywhere.  Here goes:

1994--MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY by Tony Rebel (song).
1991--MY WAY ON THE HIGHWAY, JSP Records.
1991--MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY: THE HAWKINS COUNTY TEXTBOOK CONTROVERSY by David
B. Dellinger (Ed. D. thesis at Univ. of Tenn.-Knoxville).
1988--YOUR WAY OR THE HIGHWAY by Blake Babies (song).
1988--MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY by Jimmy Davis & Junction (song used in movie A
NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET 4).
1960--A HIGHWAY COMING MY WAY? by North Carolina State Highway Commission,
Public Relations Department.
1946--THE (THY in 1st ed.) HIGHWAY IS MY WAY: NARRATIVES FOR CHILDREN IN
INTERPRETATION OF THE COMMANDMENTS (2nd ed.; 1st edition is 1930) by Edward
Kuhlmann.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
MUST-SEE

    Continuing the "must-see tv" thing.  Worldcat shows a bunch of must-sees:

1981--WHAT YOU MUST SEE IN THE BRITISH ISLES by Jo Darke.
1957--YOU MUST SEE THE NEW 1957 AMERICAN CHARACTER DOLLS.
1954--I MUST SEE SWITZERLAND by Ira David Landis (1899-1977).
1949--YOU MUST SEE CANADA by Cecil Carnes.
1886--CINCINNATI INDUSTRIAL EXPOSITION 1886 STRANGERS' GUIDE: CONTAINING WHAT
YOU SHOULD SEE! WHAT YOU OUGHT TO SEE! WHAT YOU MUST SEE! AND OTHER VALUABLE
INFORMATION.
1881--I MUST SEE ROME: A SERMON PREACHED AT BROOKLINE, MASS., APRIL 24, 1881
by Edward Everett Hale (1822-1909).

    I must see Machu Picchu, and I'll be off the internet on July 19.  If
anyone wants to come fly with me, we'll go down to Peru.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 May 1998 14:16:00 -0400
From:    Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: Scumbag; Midget/Dwarf; Pop-Up; Valedictory; Hello; Night Hawks;

> SCUMBAG

...

>      OED has "scumbag" from 1967 for "condom," and from 1971 for "base,
> despicable person."
>      The RHHDAS and AMERICAN SPEECH have "douche bag" from 1945.  Maybe Jesse
> will tell us what "scumbags" await us in the next volume.

As of now, the best we can do is 1935 for 'condom' and 1950 for
'despicable person'. Antedate us, Barry!

...

> MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY

>
>      "My way or the highway" doesn't seem to be recorded anywhere.  Here
 goes:
>
> 1994--MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY by Tony Rebel (song).
> 1991--MY WAY ON THE HIGHWAY, JSP Records.
> 1991--MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY: THE HAWKINS COUNTY TEXTBOOK CONTROVERSY by David
> B. Dellinger (Ed. D. thesis at Univ. of Tenn.-Knoxville).
> 1988--YOUR WAY OR THE HIGHWAY by Blake Babies (song).
> 1988--MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY by Jimmy Davis & Junction (song used in movie A
> NIGHTMARE ON ELM STREET 4).

Actually, Barry, you'll find this expression in HDAS s.v. _highway,_ with
an oral cite from 1986 and a written one from 1988, referring to
1970.

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 May 1998 15:49:57 -0500
From:    Buchmann <buchmann[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: guilted me

Can anyone provide citations for
"guilted" = "laid a guilt trip on"

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 May 1998 15:51:33 -0500
From:    Buchmann <buchmann[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: repurposed

Just came across this in print for the first time.
Anyone have citations?
Thanks.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 May 1998 16:00:25 -0500
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Geekspeak

>Donald M. Lance writes:
>> This 'enqueued' (enqued in USian) is reminiscent of the 'undecode' that
>> I posted earlier.  Is there a redundancy or a pleonasm at work here?

Gabor Fencsik writes:
>I don't think so.
>
>In geek-speak, 'enqueue' is a retronym used to disambiguate software
>operations performed on queues.

Aha!  The English language used as it was designed.  Thanks for the
technical explantion.

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 18 May 1998 09:43:16 -0700
From:    Yongwei Gao <951208[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FUDAN.EDU.CN>
Subject: Re: Neologisms

Dear all,

Here is my questions:

1. Jonathon Green (Neologisms: New Words since 1960) 1991  s definition
for "-core" is  an all-purpose rock music suffix: it includes
thrashcore, grindcore and grunge core  which, of course, means nothing
in this case:

-core        In 1987, G.B. Jones, guitarist for the all-female low-fi
pioneers Fifth Column, coined the term homocore in J.D.s, a Toronto
fanzine, just as queer-punk scenes began to emerge in reaction to the
prevalence of racist and homophobic skinheads within punk. (95/5/18
Rolling Stone p38)           Like its nearest American rap equivalent,
horrorcore#-a ungenre that includes Gravediggaz and Jeru the
Damaja#-trip-hop soaks up the dread and uncertainty of the 90 s and
musically conjures up a kind of paranoiascape: an aural simulation of
the urban environment. (95/5/29 NYT H26)            Another category,
known as Loungecore, consists of orchestral covers of rock songs from
the late sixties and early seventies. (97/4 Esquire p75)

2. How to define corporatize?
Example:  H.R.3460 is a bill that has already passed the subcommittee.
This bill, which I call the Steal American Technology Act, would
literally destroy the current Patent Office and corporatize it. (96/6/5
Congressional Record H5926)

3. American Speech's new-word column--Among the New Words-- gives
"cyberize" the following definition "v. n.  cause someone to be
interested in the use of the computer and the information
superhighway"     Its quotation is "The cyberizing of Joe and Jill
Six-Pack that forces such media attention to what until recently had
been the province of us propeller heads stems from a carefully
orchestrated campaign by virtually the entire computer establishment."
However, this word in my own quotation "These days, even hotels are
flogging the notion that anything s better if you cyberize it. (Newsweek
2/17/97 p46)" does not have the same meaning. Is there anyone who knows
the definitions for this neologism?

Thanks for your help.

Yongwei Gao
Fudan University,
Shanghai, China
E-mail: 951208[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fudan.edu.cn

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 17 May 1998 22:38:21 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: BULWORTH anachronisms

     Warren Beatty's latest movie, BULWORTH, takes place in the primary season
of 1996--just two years ago.  Seemingly not much time for anachronisms,
still...
     "Ebonics?"  That was an extremely rare term (even in scholarly circles)
until December 1996.  Warren, don't you remember??
     Much of the dialogue seems written rather than spoken.  A real Bulworth
would not be able to come up with instant rhymes on-the-spot to every issue.
Especially while in a drunken state, and after days with no sleep!  And no
matter how much Nina (Halle Berry) is versed in political jargon, a real Nina
would not be able to give the MEET THE PRESS answers the screenwriters have
her say.
      As for dialect, none of it seems especially indigenous to any part of
California.  California is represented by blacks and Jews, but where are the
Spanish speakers?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
YOU'RE THE ATOP

     Today's Safire "On Language" column mentions written words that no one
supposedly says.  As a lawyer, I can relate to that.  Some lawyer has a T-
shirt that says "Just Say Nolo," but who says "nolo"?
     Safire's title is a pun on the Noel Coward song, "You're the Top."
BULWORTH played at the Ziegfeld Theatre, and there were photos of the New
Amsterdam Theatre and the Ziegfeld Follies on the wall.  Several playbills had
this:

Ziegfeld Roof
The Meeting Place of the World
Atop the New Amsterdam Theatre

    "Atop" was always used for this theatre.  New York has "atop" places!

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 16 May 1998 to 17 May 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (5/17/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 15 May 1998 to 16 May 1998             98-05-17 00:00:14
There are 7 messages totalling 266 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. New Word?
  2. "Is it raining out?"
  3. Phrase catching
  4. hearn
  5. 2 CFPs
  6. RE>Bobbysoxer; Chairman of the Board
  7. nativisms

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 May 1998 00:30:03 -0500
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: New Word?

Your message has been enqueued and undeliverable for 1 day

A Canadian server was unable to complete delivery of a msg I sent but will
try off and on for 3 more days.  I'm sure it will get through to the
addressee on Monday when the office it's being sent to stokes the ole
computer.  (I'm not asking what's going on; I understand that.  See next
comment)

This 'enqueued' (enqued in USian) is reminiscent of the 'undecode' that I
posted earlier.  Is there a redundancy or a pleonasm at work here?  There
are only two instances here, and we all know it takes three trees to make a
row, but do we see a pattern emerging here?  Earlier I joshed about geek
grammar, but some kind of linguistic principle rather than a "mistake" must
account for these forms.

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 May 1998 10:33:55 -0500
From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Is it raining out?"

  A 5/14/98 ads-l message asked:

>Is it due to regional differences that when asking about the weather some
>say,"is it raining out?" and others simply, "is it raining?"?  why include
>the "out"?  it's not raining in.

     ----The "out" here possibly originated in sentences of the type "Is it
nice out?"  (where "out" = "outside" is justifiably used).   Possible
answer (with transference of "out" from the preceding question):  "No, it's
raining out." (where "out" is unnecessary). Then the latter sentence could
be turned into a question: "Is it raining out?"

     In the arcana of general-linguistic theory is a "Law of Least Effort,"
according to which  speakers use only the minimal effort necessary to get
their point across.  This so-called law is contradicted by "out" in "Is it
raining out?"

--Gerald Cohen



gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 May 1998 22:14:39 +1000
From:    Ross Chambers <maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Phrase catching

I do hope that this is not too far "offlist", a gentle nudge will put me
back on track, if so.

A citation of the catch phrase in process of gaining currency "I'd like
to see that!"

Sydney Morning Herald Sat, May 16, 1998

Leader of the Federal Opposition--speech in reply to the Federal
govenment's budget presentation earlier that week:

"One of the newspaper cartoonists yesterday gave us the ultimate 'I'd
like to see that' of Australian politics: the Treasurer, in pigtails and
a blue dress, skipping off down the yellow brick road to the sunny land
of Oz, where worries melt, I'm told, like lemon drops, and every
resident munchkin is relaxed and comfortable and raking in shares in
AMP."
--

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Ross Chambers           Sydney       Australia
maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ozemail.com.au

"L'Australia non e solo agli antipodi, e lontana da tutto,
  talora anche da sa stessa."

(Australia is not only  at the Antipodes, she is away from everything,
sometimes even from herself)

Umberto Eco

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 May 1998 16:24:31 -0400
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: hearn

I've had a chance to check out Mark's query now, and consensus seems to be
that it's the former pronunciation that's used by older AppEng speakers
([i] plus schwar)--in both 'hearn' (very rare now) and 'heard' (in both
past and p.p. forms, I believe).  And 'seed' is indeed used too.


At , you wrote:
>At 10:14 AM 5/13/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>>>>> David Sutcliffe <david.sutcliffe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TRAD.UPF.ES> >>>>
>>Any comments on _hearn_ past participle of "hear", as in (presumably
rural or old-fashioned) "I ain't hearn tell of that".
>>
>><<<<
>>
>>I have seed  ;-)\  this PP in dialog, and now in discussion here on
ADS-L, but in neither context have I found a clue as to
>>whether the vowel is as in "hear" ([i] + rhotic schwa-glide) or "heard"
(vocalic r).  Which is it?
>>
>>-- Mark
>>
>>       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
>>    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
>> 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
>>           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/
>>

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 May 1998 16:36:49 -0700
From:    Grant Smith <gsmith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EWU.EDU>
Subject: 2 CFPs

Two CALLS FOR PAPERS

1.      Special Session on Onomastics

        Joint Meeting
        American Name Society
        and
        Linguistic Society of America

        January 7-10, 1999
        Westin Bonaventure Hotel
        Los Angeles, California

Send an abstract of 100-200 words (20-minute paper) to

Professor Donald M. Lance
Department of English
l07 Tate Hall
University of Missouri
Columbia, Missouri 65211

Abstracts may be submitted by e-mail to Donald M. Lance
<engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]showme.missouri.edu>

Deadline for receipt of abstracts:  August 25, 1998

2.      Annual Meeting--American Name Society

        Dec. 27-30, 1998
        San Francisco
        Parc55 Hotel

At least twelve panels are currently planned.  Presentations should be
timed for a maximum of 20 minutes, plus 10 minutes for discussion.

All disciplinary approaches are welcomed--anthropological, psychological,
sociological, linguistic, literary, philosophical, geographical, or
historical.  Subject matter is also open, including personal names,
geographic names, corporate names, team names, names in literature, and
cultural or linguistic function.

Short abstracts (150 words max.) should be sent by September 1 to:  Grant
Smith, VP, American Name Society.  Submission as part of an email message
(not an attachment) is preferred <gsmith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ewu.edu>.

The postal address is Eastern Washington University, MS-25, Cheney, WA
99004  or Fax: 509-359-4269.

Notification by September 20.  Abstracts of all papers presented will be
printed in "Proceedings."

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 May 1998 19:39:29 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: RE>Bobbysoxer; Chairman of the Board

The New York Times, in the huge obit by Stephen Holden and published Sat. 5/16,
 credits "New York Radio personality William B. Williams" with Chairman of the
 Board. They don't specifically say when, but reading between the lines suggests
 it was some time after his resurgence in the early-ish Fifties to late
 Fifties.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

--------------------------------------
Date: 5/15/98 11:19 PM
To: Grant Barrett
From: Bapopik
BOBBYSOXER

    The first RHHDAS citation (from the OEDS) is 1944.  A 1986 citation is:

"(Frank Sinatra) launched a career that made him the idol of what were then
called bobby-soxers."

    Curiously, the movie THE BACHELOR AND THE BOBBY-SOXER (1947, with Cary
Grant, Myrna Loy, and Shirley Temple) is never mentioned.
    Frank Sinatra gave his famous Paramount concerts in 1941.  I just watched
some of the video of the "bobbysoxers" lining up for tickets.  Didn't the term
originate then?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
"CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD"

    "Chairman of the Board" wasn't to be found in my slang and idioms books.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 16 May 1998 19:24:54 -0700
From:    Bill King <wfking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOTNET.NET>
Subject: Re: nativisms

California goes nativist too.  Vallejo/VuhLAY-ho,  Vacaville/Vackaville,
Chowchilla (guess!), SACKremen-o, Loss Annjealous (Loss Angle-ease), and
Sandy-ay-go are not quite on target.

Here's something to chew on.
Upstate New York also has several cities and towns with names of foreign
 countries
and cities such as Cuba, Poland, Norway, Peru, Russia , Madrid, Rome, Naples,
Salamanca, Waterloo, Lisbon, Warsaw, Paris, Troy, Syracuse, Carthage, Utica,
 and
Corinth  All of these have English spellings,  but for a subset,  the native
language spelling is the same as the English spelling.  So, if people use the
English pronunciation of, say, Cuba, is this  going nativist?
    Next: Oneida, Oswego, Ticonderoga.

Bill King



Larry Horn wrote:

> At 5:22 PM -0400 5/13/98, Beverly Flanigan (or someone she was quoting?)
 wrote:
> >>And then there's Peru, IN [pe ru], stress on first syllable; Chile, IN
> >>[chai li]; Brazil, IN [brae z[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]l], stress on first; Cairo, IL [ke ro];
> >>Milan, MN [mai l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n], stress on first; Bellefontaine, OH, semi-calqued to
> >>'Bellefountain'....
> >>
> Upstate New Yorkers go nativist with a vengeance.  The Chili that's a
> suburb of Rochester is [CHAI lai], as in "jai alai"
>
> Larry

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 15 May 1998 to 16 May 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (5/16/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 14 May 1998 to 15 May 1998             98-05-16 00:00:22
There are 9 messages totalling 172 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. weather
  2. RE>weather (2)
  3. nativisms (5)
  4. Bobbysoxer; Chairman of the Board

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 May 1998 21:45:51 -0700
From:    zana free <zfree[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AUBURN.CAMPUS.MCI.NET>
Subject: weather

Is it due to regional differences that when asking about the weather some
say,"is it raining out?" and others simply, "is it raining?"?  why include
the "out"?  it's not raining in.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 May 1998 10:18:07 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: RE>weather

Compare to: "My Granny lives out on Long Island" and "Where are you going to?"
 and "I think I know where the money is at."

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

--------------------------------------
Date: 5/15/98 1:17 AM
To: Grant Barrett
From: zana free
Is it due to regional differences that when asking about the weather some
say,"is it raining out?" and others simply, "is it raining?"?  why include
the "out"?  it's not raining in.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 May 1998 11:22:16 -0500
From:    Buchmann <buchmann[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Re: RE>weather

This kind of thing depends on [US]
point of origin - many such usages
relate to German usage.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 May 1998 11:49:21 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: nativisms

At 5:22 PM -0400 5/13/98, Beverly Flanigan (or someone she was quoting?) wrote:
>>And then there's Peru, IN [pe ru], stress on first syllable; Chile, IN
>>[chai li]; Brazil, IN [brae z[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]l], stress on first; Cairo, IL [ke ro];
>>Milan, MN [mai l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n], stress on first; Bellefontaine, OH, semi-calqued to
>>'Bellefountain'....
>>
Upstate New Yorkers go nativist with a vengeance.  The Chili that's a
suburb of Rochester is [CHAI lai], as in "jai alai"

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 May 1998 12:00:36 -0500
From:    Buchmann <buchmann[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Re: nativisms

Redneckisms in upstate NY?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 May 1998 10:15:37 -0700
From:    "A. Vine" <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: nativisms

Larry Horn wrote:
>
> At 5:22 PM -0400 5/13/98, Beverly Flanigan (or someone she was quoting?)
 wrote:
> >>And then there's Peru, IN [pe ru], stress on first syllable; Chile, IN
> >>[chai li]; Brazil, IN [brae z[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]l], stress on first; Cairo, IL [ke ro];
> >>Milan, MN [mai l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n], stress on first; Bellefontaine, OH, semi-calqued to
> >>'Bellefountain'....
> >>
> Upstate New Yorkers go nativist with a vengeance.  The Chili that's a
> suburb of Rochester is [CHAI lai], as in "jai alai"
>
> Larry

"Jai alai" is regional.  Folks who haven't been in the Northeast
probably haven't heard of it.

Andrea

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 May 1998 13:46:58 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: nativisms

At 10:15 AM -0700 5/15/98, A. Vine wrote:
>Larry Horn wrote:
>> Upstate New Yorkers go nativist with a vengeance.  The Chili that's a
>> suburb of Rochester is [CHAI lai], as in "jai alai"
>>
>> Larry
>
>"Jai alai" is regional.  Folks who haven't been in the Northeast
>probably haven't heard of it.
>
>Andrea

Well, I suspect those who've been to the Basque Country have.  But it's
"the fastest game on Earth", and a good excuse for public gambling in these
parts (before the more recent reservation casino trend).  The local
pronunication is bi-, rather than tri-, syllabic, essentially High Life
without the f.
I know, I know, folks who don't drink beer haven't heard of THAT.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 May 1998 16:34:31 -0400
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: nativisms

What does this refer to???

At 12:00 PM 5/15/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Redneckisms in upstate NY?
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 15 May 1998 23:06:16 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Bobbysoxer; Chairman of the Board

BOBBYSOXER

    The first RHHDAS citation (from the OEDS) is 1944.  A 1986 citation is:

"(Frank Sinatra) launched a career that made him the idol of what were then
called bobby-soxers."

    Curiously, the movie THE BACHELOR AND THE BOBBY-SOXER (1947, with Cary
Grant, Myrna Loy, and Shirley Temple) is never mentioned.
    Frank Sinatra gave his famous Paramount concerts in 1941.  I just watched
some of the video of the "bobbysoxers" lining up for tickets.  Didn't the term
originate then?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
"CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD"

    "Chairman of the Board" wasn't to be found in my slang and idioms books.

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 14 May 1998 to 15 May 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (5/15/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 13 May 1998 to 14 May 1998             98-05-15 00:02:56
There are 3 messages totalling 70 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. pron question
  2. Hair Cut
  3. Must-See TV (a Japanese phrase?)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 May 1998 18:39:06 -0400
From:    frank abate <abatef[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: pron question

Rima

Catching up on old email:

I don't have a schwa in the words in -ically you list.

I have heard this from educated black speakers, though.

Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 May 1998 16:24:39 -0700
From:    Peter Richardson <prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hair Cut

for Tom & Ray Magliozzi (NPR's Car Talk) a haircut is a visit to the
bathroom. I don't know about its currency beyond their fair city of
Cambridge, MA.

Peter

>         One of the terms the organization has requested that I define is
 "hair
> cut"; of course, the ASA wants the slang or jargon meaning of that phrase.
> Does anyone have ideas about what it means?
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 14 May 1998 19:41:41 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Must-See TV (a Japanese phrase?)

LITTLE-KNOWN PLOT LEAK OF FINAL "SEINFELD"--Jerry declares he's king of the
world, then takes a Circle Line cruise around Manhattan island.  The boat hits
an iceberg and sinks.  Everybody dies, except Celine Dion.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------

     I haven't got Nexis in front of me, but "must-see tv" was the promotional
phrase thought up by NBC honchos to promote its Thursday night lineup.  I
think the phrase is now ten years old.  It's worth recording, because it's
popping up in non-NBC settings.
    Film and the theatre have long had "must-sees."  Sports--notably
baseball--has "must-win situations."  RHHDAS doesn't have this--perhaps it's
not a slang "must."
    Christine Ammer's IDIOMS book has "A MUST  A necessity; a requirement.
For example, _The Louvre is a must for visitors to Paris_, or _This book is a
must for serious students of English_. (Late 1800s)."
    But answer me this, Danny Long:  Did NBC steal "must-see" from Japan?
    These two titles show up in the Library of Congress, and both (I think)
pre-date NBC:

MUST-SEE IN KYOTO (1985), Japan Travel Bureau.
MUST-SEE IN NIKKO (1985), Japan Travel Bureau.

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 13 May 1998 to 14 May 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (5/13/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 11 May 1998 to 12 May 1998             98-05-13 00:01:08
There are 7 messages totalling 178 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Hearn (3)
  2. been: Ben vs. bin
  3. knitted cap -- togie, etc.
  4. Beijing /j/ (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 May 1998 12:33:09 +0200
From:    David Sutcliffe <david.sutcliffe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TRAD.UPF.ES>
Subject: Hearn

Any comments on _hearn_ past participle of "hear", as in (presumably
rural or old-fashioned) "I ain't hearn tell of that".

Does this have mainly southern or south Midland distribution? I've got
examples from 2 African American sources (Georgia, and Virginia) and I
remember reading in a dialect dictionary that this form apparently
hasn't survived the harsh winters in North and South Dakota.

Thanks,


David Sutcliffe

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 May 1998 09:05:03 -0600
From:    Joan Houston Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hearn

DARE shows "hearn" to be chiefly South, South Midland.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 May 1998 12:47:46 -0400
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: been: Ben vs. bin

'Ben' is not restricted to emphatic position in Minnesota, though it may
indeed be used in free variation with 'bin.'  I'm skeptical of the latter
claim though and will check it out when I make my annual visit to Minnesota
in the summer (I range from Minneapolis almost all the way to the South
Dakota border in my trek to all the relatives).  As I pointed out earlier,
I think it's in part an age-based change, since my sister and I have only
'bin,' and in part diffusion from Mpls as a focal area, since my brother
(age 65) started, like us, with 'bin' but after 40 years of continuous
residence in Mpls now has 'ben' (at least variably).  He also has the
'cot/caught' merger (to [a]), while my sister and I do not.


At 10:55 PM 5/11/98 -0400, you wrote:
>This point was part of a survey I did (American Speech 69.3, 1994) of
>Princeton freshmen.   Because of the merger before nasals Ron mentioned you
>have to screen for that first (this gets rid of much of the South and
Indiana,
>and some Southern Californians).  I then found that BEN was the pronunciation
>of choice in the Great Lakes region and the Northwest, with more additional
>support found in New England and Northern California.   As was pointed out
you
>have to ask it in an emphatic position (How've you been?)--  I think your
>student is right, BEN is under-reported in dictionaries, but some include it.
>I think.  Believe it or not I also found some people using /i:/- a small
>percentage scattered around.
>
>Dale Coye
>The College of New Jersey
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 May 1998 12:58:09 -0400
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: knitted cap -- togie, etc.

The distinction between a hat with a long tail (and a 'puffball' on top)
and a simple knitted skull cap (without a puffball, I believe) was pointed
out to me by Connie Eble, who found very high personal use of 'toboggan' in
North Carolina.  Its use in Ohio is restricted to the southern tier,
perhaps as far north as Columbus but not likely.  I'll check with my
present undergrads; all 52 are from Ohio.  My Minnesota usage was for the
sled described by Dale.


At 10:54 PM 5/11/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I think a lot of people are confused by the double meaning of toboggan.   In
>most parts of the US it's now understood as a runner-less sliding implement
>with a curved-up front, usually long enough for three or more to sit on.
But
>it's also a type of winter hat, knitted with a long point (down to your
>shoulders).  Still used in Ohio, and some parts of upstate NY at least.
>
>Dale Coye
>The College of NJ
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 May 1998 13:03:50 -0400
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Hearn

The 'hearn' participle is still hearn among some older rural southern Ohio
people; in fact, I just heard it a few days ago (this is South Midland
country, in the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains).  But it's
definitely not heard in the Dakotas and Minnesota--in summer or winter.  I
hope your dialect dictionary wasn't serious about the climate factor?!


At 12:33 PM 5/12/98 +0200, you wrote:
>Any comments on _hearn_ past participle of "hear", as in (presumably
>rural or old-fashioned) "I ain't hearn tell of that".
>
>Does this have mainly southern or south Midland distribution? I've got
>examples from 2 African American sources (Georgia, and Virginia) and I
>remember reading in a dialect dictionary that this form apparently
>hasn't survived the harsh winters in North and South Dakota.
>
>Thanks,
>
>
>David Sutcliffe
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 12 May 1998 16:57:06 -0700
From:    Benjamin Barrett <gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IX.NETCOM.COM>
Subject: Beijing /j/

Does anyone know why the j in Beijing is frequently pronounced as if French?
The Mandarin pronunciation is clearly like a "regular" English j, and the
switch from Peking happened recently enough that it shouldn't have gotten
mixed up.

Benjamin Barrett
gogaku[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com
www.netcom.com/~gogaku/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 13 May 1998 09:40:13 +0900
From:    Andrew Moody <moody[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NUCBA.AC.JP>
Subject: Re: Beijing /j/

>Does anyone know why the j in Beijing is frequently pronounced as if French?
>The Mandarin pronunciation is clearly like a "regular" English j, and the
>switch from Peking happened recently enough that it shouldn't have gotten
>mixed up.
>

The change to "Beijing," as opposed to "Peking," is probably a borrowing
from the "pinyin" transcription system. "Pinyin" is the romanization system
that is used in the People's Republic of China and does not necessarily
represent the way that a native speaker of English would hear the Mandarin
pronunciation. At any rate, though, I don't think many English speaker
would have access to the Mandarin pronunciation.

There is also a tendency for English speakers to use sounds that are less
nativizing when pronouncing place names, especially foreign place names.
This may be part of the reason for variation in names like "Colorado" were
the "a" (Color_a_do) may be pronounced as /ae/ (as in Am. Eng "bat") or /a/
(as in Am. Eng. "father").  If the fricative "j" (the French sounding one)
is less native than the affricative "j" (the "regular" English one), then
the French-sounding pronunciation may be a way to make Beijing sound more
foreign and exotic.


Andrew Moody
Nagoya University of
Commerce and Business Administration
Nagoya, Japan

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 11 May 1998 to 12 May 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (5/11/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 9 May 1998 to 10 May 1998              98-05-11 00:00:33
There are 3 messages totalling 51 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. subscription
  2. knitted cap -- togie, etc.
  3. crryhe, marmottao

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 May 1998 12:39:44 EDT
From:    WinFrench <WinFrench[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: subscription

I am a student working on a project and need help.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 10 May 1998 18:21:34 -0400
From:    STEVE ALLEN NOLDEN <sanold01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU>
Subject: Re: knitted cap -- togie, etc.

PLEASE DELETE ME FROM YOUR LIST
I WOULD REALLY APPRECIATE IT!!!!!!!
THANK YOU

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 11 May 1998 10:05:45 +0900
From:    Daniel Long <dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP>
Subject: crryhe, marmottao

I am working on the translation of a 19th English text about the Bonin
Islands in the Pacific.
Discussing the plants and animals of the island, the text reads "there
are on the Islands, wild plum, crryhe, orange, laurel, juniper and box
wood tree, sandal wood, marmottao, wild cactus, curry plant, wild sage
and celery."

Has anyone ever heard of "crryhe" or "marmottao"?  I can't find them in
dictionaries.   The spelling of the former looks very odd, but I can't
figure out what kind of typo this could be.

Danny Long
--
Daniel Long, Associate Professor     tel  +81-6-723-8297
Japanese Language Research Center    fax  +81-6-723-8302
Osaka Shoin Women's College          dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp
4-2-26 Hishiyanishi                  http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/
Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577-8550

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 9 May 1998 to 10 May 1998
***********************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (5/11/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 8 May 1998 to 9 May 1998               98-05-10 00:00:13
There are 4 messages totalling 245 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. "Rich Bitch" (2)
  2. Mother's Day (1890? 1908?)
  3. St Louis Blues

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 May 1998 00:36:23 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: "Rich Bitch"

     I was watching 20/20 just now.  A woman commented that her doctor was "a
son of a -----."  ABC deleted the last word.
     Oh, usage!  For another view, see today's New York Post, 8 May 1998, pg.
3, cols. 4-5:

_'BITCH' ALL YOU WANT_
_Judge: Term_
_not grounds_
_for slander_
By LAURA ITALIANO

     It may be vulgar, and it may be "name-calling."
     But calling a wealthy socialite a "rich bitch" isn't slander, a judge
ruled in a court fight pitting a millionaire football heiress against the
Catholic non-profit organization that fired her.
     In a decision published yesterday that appears to be the first of its
kind for New York state, a Supreme Court judge in Manhattan held that calling
someone a "bitch" isn't defamatory.
     That was bad news for Gay Culverhouse, 50, a Manhattan businesswoman and
socialite who is the former president of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers--the NFL
team her family owned until 1994.
     Culverhouse--whose father, Hugh, left a $360 million estate when he died
four years ago--claimed that the president of the Manhattan-based Cooke Center
called her a "rich bitch" in front of co-workers when Culverhouse worked there
last year as executive director.
     Although the Cooke Center--a small not-for-profit that helps special-ed
kids--denies its president ever made the remark, Culverhouse sought $50,000 in
slander damages.
     Ignoring the issue of whether the name-calling ever happened, Justice
Herman Cahn ruled that the word is simply too "imprecise" to be truly harmful.
     He threw the defamation charge out of court.
     "For nearly 100 years, courts that have addressed the issue of whether
the term 'bitch' is actionable are in nearly universal agreement that it is
not," Cahn wrote in his decision.
     The judge quotes decisions from five other states, in which the word was
deemed too tame to defame.
     Bitch is "too imprecise and open to speculation to be actionable," a
Massachusetts judge wrote in 1995.
     Bitch "imputes neither lack of chastity nor adultery," a Pennsylvania
judge wrote in 1939.
     The word is "vulgar," but mere "name-calling," a New Jersey judge wrote
in 1994.
     Complicating matters, one can't objectively prove whether someone is or
is not a bitch, the same New Jersey judge wrote.
     The Manhattan judge said he relied on all of these arguments in making
his decision.
     Culverhouse, who had claimed in her suit that the "bitch" remark implied
"that her personal wealth made her unsuitable to act as executive director in
the best interests of a not-for-profit corporation," could not be reached for
comment.
     A spokeswoman for the Cooke Center--which was named for Terence Cardinal
Cooke and is funded in large part by the Archdiocese of New York--said the
agency was "very happy" about the decision.
     But the battle with Culverhouse is not over.  She still claims the agency
broke an oral contract when it fired her last fall from her $90,000-a-year
executive directorship there.
     She's seeking $67,000 in unpaid salary.
     Culverhouse argues that the agency's president, Karen Robards, tried to
"ingratiate" herself into Culverhouse's world of "society figures or public
personalities."
     When Culverhouse "rebuffed" her, Robards called her a "rich bitch" in
front of co-workers and launched the "vendetta" that led to her firing, the
suit charges.
     Culverhouse's recent work and financial histories have been marred by
controversies.
     She and her 23-year-old daughter were victims of a foiled $1 million
kidnapping plot in Tampa in 1995--an experience that "literally scared me out
of town," she once told a Florida newspaper.
     Culverhouse, her mother, and other family members have repeatedly feuded
over money with trustees of her father's estate.

     I haven't checked in on Lexis/Nexis, but I think "rich bitch" was
popularized by Joan Collins (Alexis Carrington) on DYNASTY.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 May 1998 11:51:39 -0400
From:    Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: "Rich Bitch"

Barry Popik wrote:
>      I haven't checked in on Lexis/Nexis, but I think "rich bitch" was
> popularized by Joan Collins (Alexis Carrington) on DYNASTY.

I'm sure it's older still, but the rock duo Hall & Oates used
the phrase prominently in their 1976 hit "Rich Girl" ("She's a
rich girl, she's a rich bitch girl...").

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 May 1998 21:02:04 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Mother's Day (1890? 1908?)

     It should surprise no one that "Mother's Day" is an Americanism.  Without
her, there would be just baseball, apple pie, and hot dogs.
     It's a holiday even Saddam Hussein can love.
     Charles Panati's EXTRAORDINARY ORIGINS OF EVERYDAY THINGS (1987)
discusses this on pages 58-60:

     Born in 1864, Anna Jarvis attended school in Grafton, West Virginia.
(...) The death of her father in 1902 compelled Anna and her mother to live
with relatives in Philadelphia.  Three years later, her mother died on May 9,
leaving Ann grief-stricken. (...) For two years these naggings germinated,
bearing the fruit of an idea in 1907.  On the second Sunday in May, the
anniversary of her mother's death, Anna Jarvis invited a group of friends to
her Philadelphia home.  Her announced idea--for an annual nationwide
celebration to be called Mother's ("Mothers'" is correct--ed.) Day--met with
unanimous support. (...)
     So on May 10, 1908, the first Mother's Day service was held in Grafton,
West Virginia, attended by 407 children and their mothers. (...) The House of
Representatives quickly passed a Mother's Day resolution. (...) The resolution
stalled in the Senate.  A determined Anna Jarvis then began what has been
called one of the most successful one-person letter-writing campaigns in
history.  (Sounds familiar--ed.)(...)  By 1914, to dissent on the Mother's Day
issue seemed not only cynical but un-American.  Finally, the Senate approved
the legislation, and on May 8, 1914, President Woodrow Wilson signed a
proclamation designating the second Sunday in May as Mother's Day.

     This was quite an achievement for Anna Jarvis.  After all, in 1908 and in
1914, mothers weren't respected enough to vote!
      So much for history.  We have two concerns here: (1) is it Mother's Day
or Mothers' Day, and (2) what's the earliest citation?
      When it was passed, it was "Mothers' Day," but now it's "Mother's Day."
Personally, I prefer the plural "ladies' man" to "lady's man" (several
ladies), but I prefer the singular "Mother's Day" (one mother) to "Mothers'
Day."  Although Anna Jarvis intended the day to honor all moms, you're
concerned about Mom.  In 1914 (the year of passage), both titles were used.
      A Worldcat search was interesting.  Check this out:

    AUTHOR:  Sasseen, Mary Towles.
         TITLE:  Mother's day celebration.
       PLACE:  (Kentucky?).
PUBLISHER:  The Author.
         YEAR:  1893.

      It beats the OED citation of 1908.  And look at this:

    AUTHOR:  Pattengill, Henry R. (Henry Romaine), 1852-1918.
         TITLE:  Special day exercises:
                     arbor day, memorial days, state day, flag exercises,
mothers'
                     day, penmanship day, authors' days, statesmen's days,
                     Thanksgiving, Christmas.
      EDITION:  3d ed.
        PLACE:  Lansing, Mich.
 PUBLISHER:  R. Smith Print Co. (other editions list the author here--ed.)
          YEAR:  1890.

      A fourth edition (four, count 'em, four!) would be published in 1907,
exactly when Anna Jarvis would supposedly originate Mothers' Day.  This book
has "mothers' day" in the title!
      However, Jarvis must be given a lot of credit--certainly for our
national holiday.  Panati has this on page 60:

     Though Anna Jarvis triumphed in her campaign for a Mother's Day, her
personal life did not have a happy ending.  Disillusioned by a disastrous love
affair, she vowed never to marry and, childless, came to view each Mother's
Day as a painful personal mockery.  And as commercialization encroached upon
what had been intended as a religious observance, she became litigious,
initiating lawsuits against companies seeking to profit from Mother's Day.
The suits failed, and Anna Jarvis became a recluse.  Within a short time, she
exhausted her savings and lost her family home; a blind sister, Elsinore, to
whom she had devoted her life, died.  These misfortunes undermined her own
health, and in November 1944 she was forced to seek public assistance.
Realizing her desperate plight, friends provided funds so she could spend her
final years in a private sanitarium.  Deaf, ailing, and nearly blind, the
woman whose efforts brought happiness to countless mothers died in 1948,
childless and alone, at the age of eighty-four.

      AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS doesn't include "Mother's Day."  The word-of-
the-year for 1908 is "asleep at the switch."

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 9 May 1998 21:24:37 -0500
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: St Louis Blues

David Sutcliffe wrote on 25 April 1998:
(I'm working on a backlog of e-mail.)

>This reminded me of the research William Labov, Sherry Ash & associates
>are doing on vowel shift chains. They are convinced that a great
>Northern vowel shift is under way in the northern cities of Chicago,
>Detroit, etc. and are also convinced there's a great Southern vowel
>vowel shift in progress throughout the South. This leaves the cities in
>the middle, Cincinatti and westwards, and here they find that each major
>city is going its own sweet way (Labov, pers. communication 1995). I'm
>not sure what they say about St Louis, but it would be enlightening to
>talk to them about this.

Labov now has some telephone data from Missouri.  He started with 4 or so
interviews in the larger cities.  A couple of years ago he gave a paper on
his Missouri data, but I can't remember all the particulars.  You can see
the latest version of his research in a couple of ways.  You can find
"Phonological Atlas of the US" in the ADS' "Language-Related Resources":

http://www.msstate.edu/Dept/English/lang.html

Or you can go to Labov's website directly:

http://www.ling.upenn.edu/phono_atlas/ICSLP4.html

(I'm giving this redundant cyber-info both for Sutcliffe and for anyone
else who did not know of the ADS resource or Labov's website.)

The maps in his 1996 paper show evidence of the Northern Cities Shift (NCS)
in St. Louis.  In my experience, during the 1970s and 1980s most St Louis
County students had fully adopted the NCS, but in the 1990s their younger
siblings and nieces/nephews/children seemed to be doing something else.

Labov told me (Jan 1998, personal communication at ADS) that his team is
finding a corridor of NCS from Chicago to St. Louis.

>At all events the situation they describe seems
>to bear out the three-way division: Northern, Midland, Southern, which
>was recently questioned.

Yes, Missouri data tend to support the N-M-S tripartite division, though
it's by no means a simple matter.


DMLance

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 8 May 1998 to 9 May 1998
**********************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (5/7/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 5 May 1998 to 6 May 1998               98-05-07 00:00:09
There are 9 messages totalling 301 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. go with (3)
  2. Hookers; O. K.; Butt-enders
  3. Yiddish?
  4. pulke/polke and Yiddish
  5. hooker (2)
  6. cod fax

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 May 1998 00:06:35 EDT
From:    Davidhwaet <Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: go with

"Go with" is perfectly normal to me (Norwood MA 14 miles south of Fenway
Park), and I never considered it to be from Swedish influence as I have always
assumed "cook coffee" to be.  My college roommate (Elmira NY) insisted that it
was wrong, so I persisted in using it.

David R. Carlson
Springfield College
Springfield MA

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 May 1998 02:36:20 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Hookers; O. K.; Butt-enders

     Perhaps not my best title, but it'll have to do.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
HOOKERS

      I finally "hooked up" with George Thompson of NYU.  He works in the
Bobst library during the day--and I'm there late in the evening.
      He told me that he did a scholarly piece on boxing slang that was
rejected by AMERICAN SPEECH.  I've antedated hundreds of Americanisms and I
don't get into AMERICAN SPEECH, either.  I go through something like Safire's
"John Q. Public" error every week, and I welcomed him to the ADS outcasts
club.
      Thompson's been reading through the early 1800s.  I asked him about
"hooker" (which will be a featured word in Tom Dalzell's SLANG OF SIN).
Thompson had the first "hooker"!
      The earliest citation had been 1845 (see the RHHDAS).  This is from the
NEW YORK TRANSCRIPT, 25 September 1835, pg. 2, col. 4:

Pris.:  ...he called me a _hooker_.
Mag.:  What did you call her a hooker for?
Wit.:  'Cause she allers hangs round the hook, your honner.

      For what it's worth, I found this item about Corlaer's Hook (New York
City, supposedly a place where sailors met "hookers") and other hooks in the
ULSTER PLEBEIAN (Kingston, NY), 5 December 1815, pg. 4, col. 1:

      A new imported Anglo-Dutchman, understanding he must go to Powles-Hook
in his way to Philadelphia, made a mistake and got to Corlaer's-Hook; where,
on being told of his mistake by a carman, he exclaimed, somewhat in a passion,
"You are nothing but _hooks_; there is your Kinder-_hook_, your Red-_hook_,
your Powles-_hook_, your Corlaer's-_hook_, and your Sandy-_hook_--and since
you made war against Great Britain you are all _hook'd_."  "Weel, weel,
Mynheer," retorted the carman, "If we are all _hook'd_ you are all _damn'd_;
for you have your Amster_dam_, your Rotter_dam_, your Monck_dam_, your
Saar_dam_, and your E_dam_--and since the prince-regent has set a king over
you, you are all _damn'd_."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
O. K., BUTT-ENDERS (1839 words)

      It had been supposed that the first political "O. K. club" usage began
in March of 1840, until I had unearthed this (a few years ago) from the NEW
ERA, 12 December 1839:  "The Feds in the Third Ward have held a meeting to
approve of the nomination of Harrison.  Of course, this in the Butt Ender's
phrase is O. K., that is, 'oll korrect.'"
       I was reading through Timothy Gilfoyle's wonderful CITY OF EROS:  NEW
YORK CITY, PROSTITUTION AND THE COMMERCIALIZATION OF SEX, 1790-1920 (1992) for
"hookers" when I found a previously unknown 1839 "Butt-Ender."  The DICTIONARY
OF AMERICANISMS has three citations for the Butt-enders political party,
beginning with 4 January 1840.
      CITY OF EROS showed the front cover of an 1839 pamphlet guide to New
York City's brothel's, which was written by "A Butt-Ender."  Thus, in 1839
"Butt-ender" meant two things: (1) the butt end of a rifle, and (2) (if you
don't know this, ask Beavis).
      No library in the country had this "Butt-Ender" guide.  The computer
databases didn't list it.  CITY OF EROS stated that "Butt-Ender" was in the
private collection of Leo Hershkowitz, of Queen's College.
      I contacted Mr. Hershkowitz.  He used to work in the Queen's College
library, and he possesses a large collection of impossible-to-find
publications from 19th century New York City, such as BUTT-ENDER, THE WHIP,
and FLASH.
      I politely asked him if there was an "O. K." in his BUTT-ENDER.  I was
also interested if he had any "hookers" for me, or just one "hello."
      He's going through his collection now, and he can be contacted at
Queen's College, where he teaches New York City history.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 May 1998 07:41:35 -0400
From:    David Bergdahl <bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Yiddish?

Ck Leo Rosten's Joys of Yiddish: he gives dialectal variations which have
checked out from what I know: for ex-- the pronunciation of <Chatchkies>
he gives as Lithuanian usage is what my wife's Litvak family uses.

=======================================================================
David Bergdahl          Ellis Hall 114c        Ohio University / Athens
Associate Prof/English  tel:  (740) 593-2783   fax:  (740) 593-2818
                        bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu
                    http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
=======================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 May 1998 08:29:57 -0400
From:    Patrick Courts <courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AIT.FREDONIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: go with

I go with folks all the time and normally invite them to go with when I'm
going somewherer.  Raised on the southside of Chicago where I believe it
was common.

At 02:02 PM 5/5/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I have a student interested in study the expression "go with" (without an
>object) as in, "I'm going to the store.  Do you want to go with?"
>
>Does anyone know of studies on the subject?  Would you use that expression
>yourself?
>
>Cynthia Bernstein
>English Dept., Auburn Univ., Auburn, AL 36849-5203
>bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.auburn.edu
>phone:  334-844-9072
>fax:    334-844-9027
>


Pat


Patrick L. Courts
Professor of English
State University of New York at Fredonia
Fredonia, NY 14063
e-mail:  courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ait.fredonia.edu
http://www.fredonia.edu/department/english/courts/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 May 1998 10:29:49 +0000
From:    Jim Rader <jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: pulke/polke and Yiddish

According to Weinreich's dictionary, Yiddish _polke_ means primarily
"drumstick (of a fowl)"; the sense "thigh" is labeled "humorous" in the
English-Yiddish section.  The most immediate source that suggests
itself is Polish _pal/ka_ "stick" (read slash through <l>);  I'm
fairly sure there are other cases where Polish <a> is reflected as
o/u in Yiddish--though I have no qualifications as a Yiddishist and
am speaking from very limited knowledge.

Is David Gold on this list or on any list that anyone knows of?  Does
he have a computer?  I'm sure he could answer this question in a
jiffy.

Jim Rader

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 May 1998 11:05:23 +0000
From:    Jim Rader <jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: Re: hooker

Hi, Barry--

Your cite for this from the _New York Transcript_ of 25 December,
1835, is very interesting.  _Hooker_ is a word we get a lot of mail
on.  Did Thompson give you more context for this cite?  Who are the
characters in the dialogue?  Is it really clear that _hooker_ means
"prostitute"?  If Thompson is the one I should ask about this, do you
know if he has an e-mail address?

Thanks for any help you can give me.

I'm sending this to the list because for some reason my computer is
rejecting your e-mail address.

Regards,
Jim Rader

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 May 1998 11:37:26 -0400
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: go with

I give a grammatical structures questionnaire to my classes and generally
get a "personal use" response from Chicago students as well as from
Minnesota and Wisconsin people (how about Iowa? and the Dakotas?).  And
"cook coffee" as Minnesotan--yes!  It truly was boiled in the old days
(with or without a raw egg), not percolated or dripped, and I suspect the
term has persisted.


At 08:29 AM 5/6/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I go with folks all the time and normally invite them to go with when I'm
>going somewherer.  Raised on the southside of Chicago where I believe it
>was common.
>
>At 02:02 PM 5/5/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>I have a student interested in study the expression "go with" (without an
>>object) as in, "I'm going to the store.  Do you want to go with?"
>>
>>Does anyone know of studies on the subject?  Would you use that expression
>>yourself?
>>
>>Cynthia Bernstein
>>English Dept., Auburn Univ., Auburn, AL 36849-5203
>>bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.auburn.edu
>>phone:  334-844-9072
>>fax:    334-844-9027
>>
>
>
>Pat
>
>
>Patrick L. Courts
>Professor of English
>State University of New York at Fredonia
>Fredonia, NY 14063
>e-mail:  courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ait.fredonia.edu
>http://www.fredonia.edu/department/english/courts/
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 6 May 1998 11:48:27 -0400
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <gd2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: hooker

At 11:05 AM 5/6/98 +0000, Jim Rader (jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]m-w.com) wrote:
>Hi, Barry--
>
>Your cite for this from the _New York Transcript_ of 25 December,
>1835, is very interesting.  _Hooker_ is a word we get a lot of mail
>on.  Did Thompson give you more context for this cite?  Who are the
>characters in the dialogue?  Is it really clear that _hooker_ means
>"prostitute"?  If Thompson is the one I should ask about this, do you
>know if he has an e-mail address?
>
>Thanks for any help you can give me.
>
>I'm sending this to the list because for some reason my computer is
>rejecting your e-mail address.
>

Since even if I wanted to I can't get on the web without going through NYU's
homepage, where there is an electronic staff directory, this is easy for me
to answer quickly. (I only have time for quick answers this time of year.)
George Thompson is the, or one of the, humanities reference librarians at
NYU's main (Bobst) library. His new email (we all got changed last month) is
listed as gt1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is.nyu.edu, his phone as 212-998-2517, and his fax as
212-995-4071. He's usally there in the morning and afternoon on weekdays,
but I've been too busy to get over there in the past month, so I don't know
for sure if that's his current schedule. He came out of the same NYU Comp
Lit dept. that I did, thought several years before me.

Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or gd2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 7 May 1998 09:55:28 -0700
From:    Yongwei Gao <951208[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FUDAN.EDU.CN>
Subject: cod fax

Has anybody there ever come up with a definition for  cod fax :

cod fax        When the same editor was exposed forging a letter and a
signature on stolen writing-paper, the Guardian treated that as a joke
too. It was not a forgery, it was a  cod fax . (The Spectator 7/26/97
p24)   The crime is euphemistically described as  a cod fax , a
 stratagem , a  ruse  and a  formula . (98/2 Atlantic Monthly p79)

Many thanks.

Yongwei Gao
Fudan University,
Shanghai, China

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 5 May 1998 to 6 May 1998
**********************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (5/4/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 2 May 1998 to 3 May 1998               98-05-04 00:00:30
There are 5 messages totalling 216 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Do the ADS pundits know? (2)
  2. Re. RP
  3. Whoops
  4. Neologisms

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 May 1998 12:03:41 -0400
From:    Duane Campbell <dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET>
Subject: Do the ADS pundits know?

I don't know whether these things happen suddenly or whether they build
gradually until they reach a critical mass where I notice them. But when
did "pundit" become "pundent"?

The word has been tossed out a bit more than usual lately on television
news shows, and in virtually every iteration it has been pronounced with
that extra N slipped in.

--
Duane Campbell
dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net   http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 May 1998 14:05:00 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Do the ADS pundits know?

PUN

By the way, "pun" is now shortened slang for "capital punishment."  I think
there's a recording out by the group Capital Punishment called "Pun" or "Big
Pun."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------
WILLIAM SAFIRE ERRORS (a sporadic, continuing series)

     I also sent the writeup of my presentation before the Society for
American Baseball Research on "the naming of the New York Yankees" to The New
York Times.  I got a form letter rejection.  I've been waiting eight years for
them to do an article on "the Big Apple" (some people are now dead), so,
obviously, I've got to work harder, better, and go through a lot more
suffering before I ever get my writing published there.
     This was in Safire's column ("Joe Six-Pack") in today's magazine:

"...the editor William Allen White in 1937 called him _John Q. Public_..."

     I posted here on ADS-L--quite a while ago--that John Q. Public was
spotted in 1922, in the New York Mail.  At least a hundred ADS people must
have read it!
     "Joe Blow" should not be quoted to 1867, as the RHHDAS entry makes clear.
I found "Joe Blow" in a Rube Goldberg cartoon prior to WWII--it might also
have come from the NY Mail.
     "Joe Doakes" was the name of a cartoon, and I think its origin predates
1926.
    Lemme read this form rejection letter again.  Gosh, I love pain.

"...And we're sorry we cannot use it.  Our space is limited..."

    Limited?  Have you seen all those Lifestyles sections?  The special
section on "Teens"?  They can't run anything original on the history of New
York City??

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 May 1998 21:27:40 +0200
From:    David Sutcliffe <david.sutcliffe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TRAD.UPF.ES>
Subject: Re. RP

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Subject: Re: RP
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I'm a north Londoner, little on the downmarket side of RP, I'm afraid.
But I think I can answer the question. A clear difference is usually
made in RP (varieties of...) between close /e/ as the first element of
the /eI/ dipththong as in day and the open /e/ as in pet. In the 40's
and 50's, probably beginning earlier, the ash vowel was raised in RP,
(as in "the gel's (girl's) epsolutely smeshing") and this could I
suppose have driven the pet vowel higher - but surely not as high as
close /e/. At all events my generation (born early forties onward)
reversed this trend and brought the ash vowel down to nearly fully open,
leaving plenty of room for the other two vowels.

David Sutcliffe
Universitat Pompeu Fabra

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------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 3 May 1998 22:51:07 +0200
From:    David Sutcliffe <david.sutcliffe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TRAD.UPF.ES>
Subject: Whoops

My apologies to all for inadvertently sending unwanted information at
the beginning of my Re:RP posting. I'm even more sorry that this mistake
was not as entertaining as The Parrot (April 16) - incidentally the
second offering I ever received from the list after joining.

My thanks to the list subscriber who very quickly let me know about my
mistake.

David Sutcliffe

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 4 May 1998 10:30:35 -0700
From:    Yongwei Gao <951208[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FUDAN.EDU.CN>
Subject: Re: Neologisms

Have anybody there ever seen the following list of words? I don t know
whether they can be regarded as neologisms.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
casp kid           Casp kids (those born between 1960 and 1970) actually
benefited from the mass media's obsession with the boomers.(95/4/25 New
York Times A3)
ceiling out        Theoretically, and by design, no child can correctly
answer every item in a subtest. Before completing a subtest and moving
along to the next, the child must  ceiling out #-a polite way of saying
 fail.  (New York 12/18/95 p43)
chai        To the coffees and teas it serves in its cafes, Borders
bookstore add  chai,  a blend of tea, milk, vanilla, honey and spices.
(5/15/97 Wall Street Journal p1)
chubbies     And while sales of traditional Nancy Reagan full-lengthers
are still weak, high-end designers say they are doing a brisk business
in bomber jackets, stoles, and  chubbies,  the short jackets that mimic
cropped down-filled parkas. (7/14/97 New York p20)
cigar-ish  News of the New York nightlife crackdown must be slow to
travel, and that s a good thing. With a few exceptions, clubland of late
has tended toward the intimate, loungey, cigar-ish; let s face it, it s
been getting boring. (97/9/8 New York p128)
crowd-surf     That  crowd-surfing  business looks like fun. I tried to
imagine hippies crowd-surfing at the original Woodstock to someone like,
oh, Ravi Shankar. Then again, you watch people crowd-surfing to
countrified Melissa Etheridge and you think: What s wrong with this
picture? (8/15/94 Sun D1)
culture surfing      I was June 1994, weeks after the about-face at CBS.
 Running a network is like culture surfing,  explains Sanitsky.  You ve
got to keep paddling out there and hope you catch a wave. Darren is not
a bad surfboard to have.  (5/96 Esquire p79)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks.

Yongwei Gao
Fudan University,
Shanghai, China

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 2 May 1998 to 3 May 1998
**********************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (5/3/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 1 May 1998 to 2 May 1998               98-05-03 00:00:25
There is one message totalling 120 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. New Yorker

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 2 May 1998 05:35:07 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: New Yorker

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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     I forgot to add the citation that "New Yorker" is mentioned in "Names for
Americans," H. L. Mencken, AMERICAN SPEECH, December 1947, vol. XXII, no. 4,
pages 240-256.
      For cheap thrills, try the website www.pathfinder.com/NY1/ (New York
City's all news cable channel's web site) and nominate me for "New Yorker of
the Week" for "New Yorker."
      Attached is a schedule of today's Names Institute, which I received just
a few short hours ago...

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Date: Fri, 01 May 1998 15:16:24 -0400
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XXXVII  ANNUAL  NAMES  INSTITUTE

Baruch College
New York, NY
May 2,  1998


PROGRAM


9:00 - 9:30 am  Coffee and Danish

9:30 - 9:45 am  Welcome and Announcements

   Wayne H. Finke, Director


9:45 - 10:30 am Session I

   Chair:  E. Wallace McMullen (Fairleigh Dickinson University)

   "New York=92s =91Finest=92 "  Barry Popik (New York, NY)

   "Gender is Identified by Spelled Endings of Most First Names"
    Herbert Barry, III (University of Pittsburgh)


10:30 - 10:45 am Break


10:45 - 12:00 noon Session II

   Chair:  Marcia D. Yarmus
    (John Jay College of Criminal Justice - CUNY)

   "Arab Place Names: A Historic Journey through Sicily"
    Alfonso Guerriero, Jr.  (Hunter College - CUNY)

   "Gustavo Eguren as an Onomastician"
    Ricardo Vi=F1alet (Instituto de Literatura, Havana)

   "8700 Oregon Geographic Names, How and Why"
    Lewis L. McArthur (Portland, OR)


12:15 - 2:00 pm Luncheon: Hunan East Restaurant
     308 Third Avenue (Between 23rd & 24th Streets)

2:00 - 3:30 pm  Session III

   Chair: Kalli Valadakis (College of Staten Island - CUNY)

"Grabbing at Handles: An Arrangement of a Handful of Ids, Tags and
By-names used by Operators on the Citizens Band Radio"
 Dean Reilein (Eastern Connecticut State University)

"Names Games: Wit and Wisdom in Onomastic Wordplay"
 Leonard R. N. Ashley (Brooklyn College - CUNY)

3:30  pm Closing Remarks

 Wayne H. Finke (Baruch College - CUNY)




--part0_894101707_boundary--

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 1 May 1998 to 2 May 1998
**********************************************

======================================================================

There are 13 messages totalling 540 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Reuben sandwich
  2. Big/Small Time; Ad Lib; Hokum; Showstopper; Apache Dance; Flop; Turkey
  3. Friday humor
  4. kleenex, sheetrock, and dragon systems; emoticon (5)
  5. Last Call for ADS [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] NCTE
  6. comp.speech newsgroup?
  7. RE>comp.speech newsgroup?
  8. AAV question (fwd)
  9. emoticon

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 29 May 1998 00:17:18 -0500
From:    Dan Goodman <dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM>
Subject: Reuben sandwich

On whether a practicing Jew would serve a sandwich combining meat and
cheese, even to non-Jews:

My paternal grandmother, who grew up in Poland before WW I, told a
story of Gypsies going to a kosher butcher and offering to buy
"trefe".   Nothing said about anything being wrong with selling the
non-kosher parts of animals to Gypsies.  (I suspect the Gypsies
thought a kosher butcher would be likely to sell non-kosher cuts of
meat for lower prices than a Christian butcher would.)

And I've heard of Jewish pork butchers in New York City.

Dan Goodman
dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 29 May 1998 08:44:21 EDT
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Big/Small Time; Ad Lib; Hokum; Showstopper; Apache Dance; Flop; Turkey

GREAT TRAGEDY

     Two people have been quoted today as saying the Phil Hartman death was a
"great tragedy."
     HAMLET is a great tragedy.  This "great" confusion has often led to the
stupid "the Great Depression was not-so-great."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
BIG/SMALL TIME

     I decided to check VARIETY again for "big time" and "small time."  Both
pre-date "Jolo's" vaudeville reviews in the paper.  I did this subject years
ago and have the papers somewhere.
     "Small time" shows up first, with "big time" following later (like a
"one-piece bathing suit" or a "day baseball game").  This is from VARIETY, 27
February 1909, pg. 17, cols. 2-3:

     In the reviews in this Department hereafter, the opinion expressed as to
the class or possibility of an act will relate strictly to the house and grade
of vaudeville the act reviewed is then appearing in.  "Smaller time" will not
hereafter be employed in the sense it formerly has been, before the
introduction of the "combination, " "popular" or "10-20" (cents) vaudeville.

     In an April 3, 1909, pg. 5 cartoon, "An Artist" asks "Which one of you
gentlemen can give me the right time?"  One agent has "Morris Time" and the
other has "United Time."  On August 7, 1909, pg. 35, VARIETY stated that its
motto was "All the News All the Time."
     "Big-time" is in June 5, 1909, pg. 7, col. 3, and "big-small time" is in
August 14, 1909, pg. 8, col. 1.  RHHDAS has "big time" in VARIETY from August
1910.  "Small-time" (with hyphen) is in July 3, 1909, pg. 4, col. 1, and
"small time" (without hyphen) is in the same issue, pg. 5, col. 4.  "Small
time" is also in May 15, 1909, pg. 12, col. 3, but even earlier is "small
house,:" February 27, 1909, pg. 4, col. 2.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
AD LIB

     The OED has 1919 and the RHHDAS has 1925.  VARIETY, June 5, 1909, pg. 15,
col. 4:

     Such parts of the Amsterdam serial show as are not filled with girls and
music are taken up with the exploitation of what is known as "comedy bits" or
"ad lib. business," an institution capable of unlimited abuse.  For instance,
when something has to be done with a painful pause between two incidents that
have a more or less pertinent bearing on the piece or two numbers, one of the
comedians ambles forth and "cuts up" for no earthly reason except the apparent
one that the stage cannot be left unoccupied.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
HOKUM

     The RHHDAS has 1908, but this fine explanation is from VARIETY, May 8,
1909, pg. 9, col. 2:

May 3rd.
Editor VARIETY:
     Last week my partner, Jim Wible, and I had a friendly argument over a
word that is used theatrically when speaking of material that is sold.
     I say the word is "hocum."  He says it is "oakum," basing his claim on
the fact that he has on different occasions read in VARIETY the word "oakum,"
used by critics in their reviews.
     I myself have read the same in VARIETY, but I think the critics are wrong
the same as Mr. Wible.  I have heard old timers for years back speak of stuff,
and comedians as being "hocum," also "hoecake."  (RHHDAS no entry)  I would
like your opinion through your columns;  also would like the opinion of
artists who have been in the business a few years, if the word is "hocum" or
"oakum."
     _Bert Somers_,
       (Of Somers and Wible)
     ("Oakum" is the correct term.  It may be pronounced and may have been
spelled by some as "ocum."  The nearest approach to "hocum" (there is no word
of that spelling)   may have been suggested through "hocus" or "hocus-pocus,"
referring to sleight-of-hand or juggling.  In the past centuries men of
mystery in foreign lands were wont to bill their entertainment under that
descriptive caption.  Oakum can denote a very coarse rope, twine, flax or
hemp, and a mixture long left alone would be called "oakum."  Its most
generally accepted definition is the refuse of a cordage factory.--Ed

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
STOPPING THE SHOW

     William Safire's assistant discussed "show-stopper" on this list about a
year ago; OED had 1926 for "stopping the show."
     VARIETY, July 17, 1909, pg. 17, col. 2, has "they 'stopped the show,'
receiving five encores and taking twice as many bows."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
BIG NAME

     This is not in the RHHDAS.  In VARIETY, January 9, 1909, pg. 16, col. 3,
is "there is no 'big name' to draw at the American this week."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
APACHE DANCE

     OED has 1914 for "Apache Dance."  It's in VARIETY, January 9, 1909, pg.
16, col. 2, as the title for an act.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
PATSY

     This was discussed here in AMERICAN SPEECH and COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY.  A
wonderful cartoon, with "the artist"  getting the "slap stick" from various
interests, is in VARIETY, February 6, 1909. pg. 5.  The Artist wears a cap
that says "THE PATSY." "No matter which way the wind blows I'm always the
patsy," the Artist declares.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
SPEECH!  SPEECH!

     This is from VARIETY, pg. 10, col. 4:

     There's no more "knocking them off the seats, "killing 'em dead," "riot,"
"knockout" or "the biggest hit ever."  They are saying nowadays:  "Well, I had
to make a speech, that's how I went."  The "speech" is supposed to cover
everything.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
FLOP

     RHHDAS has VARIETY 1919 for a show "flop."  I found "flop" a lot in 1909.
The February 27, 1909 VARIETY, pg. 18, col. 2:  "These two featured sketches
'flopping' gave the Lincoln Square bill this week the credit for being about
the worst show seen in New York this season, at a first class house."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
TURKEY

     "Turkey" was a burleque show, and I suppose by this relation a bad show.
VARIETY, February 20, 1909, pg. 8, col. 4:  "He was formerly the manager of a
regular Wheel organization, but since leaving the circuit, has been
'turkeying' about."  July 24, 1909, pg. 1, col. 3:  "A 'TURKEY' STRANDS.
Toledo, July 22.  It's not so hard stranding in the summer as when the snow is
flickering about.  So one doesn't hear laments arising from Bowling Green, O.,
although a 'turkey' show of 25 people has just flopped over in that town.
There were fourteen girls with the company."  February 13, 1909, pg. 16, col.
3:  "An out-and-out 'turkey' organization, it deserves a prominent place in
thie season's burlesque aviary."

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 29 May 1998 09:03:33 -0400
From:    Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: Friday humor

Danny Long wrote:

> A linguistics professor was lecturing to his class one day.  "In
> English," he said, "a double negative forms a positive.  In some
> languages, though, such as Russian, a double negative is still a
> negative.  However, there is no language wherein a double positive can
> form a negative."
>
>  A voice from the back of the classroom piped up, "Yeah, right."

This is very often presented as a true story, with the back-
of-class voice said to be the philosopher Saul Kripke, among
others; often the punchline is "Yeah, yeah." I forget if there's
a definitive version, but it does seem as if it is a genuine
story, not just a joke.

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 29 May 1998 12:07:04 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: Re: kleenex, sheetrock, and dragon systems; emoticon

Rima McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET> asks:

>>>

Very impressive.  But if you did the whole thing by speech, how did you get the emoticon at the end???

<<<

Very easily!  ;-)\

That is, I created a command, using the Command Wizard, whose function is to type those four keystrokes, and maybe a
couple of spaces around it (I don't remember). I named the command "smiley wink", and for good measure I trained it: I
clicked the "train" button in the Command Wizard dialogue, and NatSpeak asked me to say "smiley wink" once. Now I
enter that emoticon by saying "smiley wink". Similarly, I say "email signature" to enter the following block --

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/

-- and "NatSpeak credit" to enter this --

This document was created by voice with Dragon Systems' NaturallySpeaking.

-- although I am typing this message manually.

By the way, the backslash in my smiley-wink emoticon represents my slanting asymmetric beard.

(BTW)^2 and back on topic, how do YOU pronounce "emoticon"? The first time I saw the word I thought /i.'mat.I.kan/, as
in "lexicon", and that pron still echoes faintly for me, although I say the word now as /'i.mot.'ay.kan/. It's an awkward
clash of spelling and pron.

-- Mark

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 29 May 1998 12:23:36 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Last Call for ADS [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] NCTE

The ADS will co-sponsor a session at NCTE in Nashville on Nov. 20 (Friday)
from 9:30-10:45. We have 2 speakers scheduled:

Michaal Montgomery, "The Smoky Mountain Dictionary" as a Pedagogical Tool
Kathy Jennings, TBA

(Kathy is the author of "White Like Me: A Confession on Race, Region, and
Class" in the _Appalachian Journal_ for Winter 1998, Vol. 25, No. 2.)

We can also schedule a Recorder/Reactor, who evaluates the session.

Please let me know if you would lke to serve as Recorder/Reactor.

Thanks,
Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 29 May 1998 12:24:54 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: comp.speech newsgroup?

Can someone tell me how to post to "comp.speech newsgroup"?

Thanks,
Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 29 May 1998 12:35:57 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: RE>comp.speech newsgroup?

Probably the easiest way is through www.dejanews.com.

It allows you to use a web browser, rather than the built-in newsreader or a stand-alone client, after a short validation process. The advantages are that you do not have to subscribe through the newsgroups through your university or service provider, you do not have to set up any kind of preferences, and DejaNews filters out almost all spam from their postings, so you can have a fairly pleasant reading experience.

I haven't read newsgroups on a regular basis in years, but when I do, I use DejaNews.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

--------------------------------------
Date: 5/29/98 12:30 PM
To: Grant Barrett
From: Bethany K. Dumas
Can someone tell me how to post to "comp.speech newsgroup"?

Thanks,
Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 29 May 1998 13:44:44 -0400
From:    sonja lanehart <lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARCHES.UGA.EDU>
Subject: AAV question (fwd)

A student at UGA has some syntactic questions about a "phenomenon" in
AAVE.  He needs technical help that I am not able to provide right now.  I
told him we have wonderful people on ADS-L that would be willing to offer
him help in a short period of time.  I hope this isn't an inconvenience
that some of you will be able to direct him.  You can either respond to me
and I will forward him your responses or you can e-mail him directly at
the address in the message since he is not on ADS-L.  Thanks in advance
for your help.    --SL

*************************************************************************
Sonja L. Lanehart
Department of English                My office:          (706) 542-2260
Park Hall                            ENG office/message: (706) 542-1261
University of Georgia                Fax:                (706) 542-2181
Athens, GA 30602-6205                E-mail:    lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]arches.uga.edu
*************************************************************************

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 29 May 1998 12:14:46 -0400 (EDT)
From: Richard Turnbow <rturnbow[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]arches.uga.edu>
To: LANEHART[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]arches.uga.edu
Subject: AAV question


I have come across a small phenomenon in AAV which I would like to explain
in terms of grammer and syntax, yet I do not have enough knowledge in the
field of linguistics nor grammer to do so. Could you help?
Here in the South(atleast), there is a pattern of asking questions by
first asserting the pronoun before the verb, often making what would be
considered standardized questions into command/questions or
statement/questions.  example:

        "You'll hand me that book?"

which is translated:

        "Will you hand me that book?"


When pronouncing "You'll hand me that book?", the tone is raised an
octave, similiar to the tone used in pronouncing "Huh?"
Futhermore, since this is a southern pronunciation with a southern drawl,
the word "book" has two syllables instead of one; stress placed on the
first syllable.
A further example is...

        "Dat's mines?"

Translated:

        "Is that mine?"

Once again the last word "mines" is multisylabic, stress on the first
syllable.

What differentiates these types of questions from simple standard English
or even Standard AAV English is that they are considered commands, but are
posed as questions. So the respondent is expected to do whatever is asked
of him/her unless it is totally outside of their power to do so. For
example,

        "You'll take me a sto'?"

translated:

        "Will you take me to the store?"

It is expected that the respondent will take the questioner to the store,
unless something is hindering the respondent from doing so.
I suspect it has something to do with the cultural assertiveness of
African Culture transcended down into present day Af-Am culture.
If I could get some feedback on this subject, both from a cultural aspect
as well, and especially, from a syntactical/grammatical aspect, I would
very much apreciate it.

Thankyou,
Richard Turnbow
Eng-Ed. Grad. Student
Univ. of Georgia

"Thanks Dr.Lanehart"

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 29 May 1998 12:41:24 -0500
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: emoticon

Mark Mandel asks:

>(BTW)^2 and back on topic, how do YOU pronounce "emoticon"? The first time
>I saw the word I thought /i.'mat.I.kan/, as
>in "lexicon", and that pron still echoes faintly for me, although I say
>the word now as /'i.mot.'ay.kan/. It's an awkward
>clash of spelling and pron.

Because it's based on 'emotion' rather than 'motliness', I say /i 'mo ti
`kan/, or may use the lax [I] in either or both syllables 1 and 3.  I don't
remember hearing anyone use the first-mentioned pronunciation.

(I'm not really fussing about Mark's syllable boundaries, but thought I'd
expand the discussion.  Actually the boundary would be smack-dab in the
middle of the voiced t for me.  For those with strongly articulated
intervocalic /t/, the division would be as I show it, I think.  Mark's
division reflects etymology, assuming 'emotion' underlies this form.  His
syllable division may be accurate with the "short o" in syllable 2, at
least as I would (mis)say it.  Some dictionaries have opted for
etymological syllabication, while others try to reflect point of lowest
articulatory energy, though they state their rules in terms of letters
rather than phonetic units.)

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 29 May 1998 15:39:18 -0400
From:    Alan Baragona <baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU>
Subject: Re: kleenex, sheetrock, and dragon systems; emoticon

At 12:07 PM 5/29/98 -0500, Mark Mandel wrote:

>(BTW)^2 and back on topic, how do YOU pronounce "emoticon"? The first time
I saw the word I thought /i.'mat.I.kan/, as
>in "lexicon", and that pron still echoes faintly for me, although I say the
word now as /'i.mot.'ay.kan/. It's an awkward
>clash of spelling and pron.
>
>-- Mark
>

The computer wizard who first taught me the term used your former
pronunciation, so that's what I still say.

AB

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 29 May 1998 16:47:28 -0400
From:    Alan Baragona <baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU>
Subject: Re: kleenex, sheetrock, and dragon systems; emoticon

At 12:07 PM 5/29/98 -0500, Mark Mandel wrote:

>(BTW)^2 and back on topic, how do YOU pronounce "emoticon"? The first time
I saw the word I thought /i.'mat.I.kan/, as
>in "lexicon", and that pron still echoes faintly for me, although I say the
word now as /'i.mot.'ay.kan/. It's an awkward
>clash of spelling and pron.
>
>-- Mark


Oops. Let me revise that.  The pronunciation I was taught by the computer
geek had the lax /I/, not the diphthong, which is what I was looking at, but
not the /mat/.  So I pronounce it /i.'mot.I.kan/.

AB

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 29 May 1998 17:09:06 -0400
From:    David Bergdahl <bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: kleenex, sheetrock, and dragon systems; emoticon

On Fri, 29 May 1998, Alan Baragona wrote:
>
> Oops. Let me revise that.  The pronunciation I was taught by the computer
> geek had the lax /I/, not the diphthong, which is what I was looking at, but
> not the /mat/.  So I pronounce it /i.'mot.I.kan/.
>
I'm surprised at all these intervocalic T's!! This qtr I was interviewed
by a TESOL student who had just returned from seven years in Indonesia.
When I mentioned the term he wrote down "emodican"    :-)   I say [i 'mod
[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] kan], obviously.

=======================================================================
David Bergdahl          Ellis Hall 114c        Ohio University / Athens
Associate Prof/English  tel:  (740) 593-2783   fax:  (740) 593-2818
                        bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu
                    http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
=======================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 29 May 1998 17:31:48 -0400
From:    Alan Baragona <baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU>
Subject: Re: kleenex, sheetrock, and dragon systems; emoticon

At 05:09 PM 5/29/98 -0400, David Bergdahl wrote:
>On Fri, 29 May 1998, Alan Baragona wrote:
>>
>> Oops. Let me revise that.  The pronunciation I was taught by the computer
>> geek had the lax /I/, not the diphthong, which is what I was looking at, but
>> not the /mat/.  So I pronounce it /i.'mot.I.kan/.
>>
>I'm surprised at all these intervocalic T's!! This qtr I was interviewed
>by a TESOL student who had just returned from seven years in Indonesia.
>When I mentioned the term he wrote down "emodican"    :-)   I say [i 'mod
>[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] kan], obviously.
>

You're right, it should be surprising for an intervocalic dental, but in
fact my /t/ is definitely and consistently voiceless.  Probably trying to
emphasize the connection to "emote."  Don't know why I don't feel the need
to emphasize the connection to "icon" with a diphthong, but the analogy with
"lexicon" seems to be stronger for me (or for the person who taught me the
word, whom I'm just imitating).  If I used the word more often, I might
eventually voice it.

Alan B.

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 28 May 1998 to 29 May 1998
************************************************
There are 10 messages totalling 476 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. -hop & car-hopping (2)
  2. Scumbag (continued); F-WORD additions
  3. Rock 'n' Roll (2)
  4. your query
  5. Scumbag (continued) (2)
  6. Computers and the arts & humanities
  7. "It's all good" (Goodwill Games?)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 May 1998 11:22:19 -0700
From:    Yongwei Gao <951208[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FUDAN.EDU.CN>
Subject: Re: -hop & car-hopping

Dear all,

I am doing topic-hopping, the frequent switching of topics. The nonce
word is patterned after bed-hop, channel-hop, club-hop, car-hop and many
others. Of the definitions for car-hopping, I am most puzzled: as
bed-hop means  to engage in promiscuous sexual relationships ,
car-hopping should be something like  the frequent change of automobiles
during a trip . However, I have so far collected three alternatives:
1. Car hopping   Soliciting or accepting an invitation for a joy ride,
usually from a stranger. This practice, a growing pastime among teenage
girls in some areas, can lead to drug and alcohol abuse, casual sex,
rape and even murder. Car hopping can also mean stealing a car for a joy
ride, stealing small items from cars or hitching a ride on a rear
bumper. Oh, for yesteryear, when carhops were waitresses at drive-in
restaurants who hazarded nothing more serious than wolf whistles and
tired feet. (96/12/26 U.S. News and World Report Buzzword)    Note: this
 96 list was provided by Mr. Michael Agne with Webster s New World
College Dictionary.
2. travelling from place to place in an automobile.   The players,
however, don t seem to mind the car-hopping from one gym or outdoor
court to another.   (Barnhart Dictionary Companion Summer 97)
3. visiting several cars in succession, as in a traffic jam, in order to
socialize.  The youths would jam Balboa Boulevard with cars and then
turn the resulting gridlock into a mass party, car-hopping in groups to
socialize, officers added.  (Barnhart Dictionary Companion Summer 97)

Are other alternatives available?

Wish you all a nice weekend!

Yongwei Gao
Fudan University
Shanghai, China

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 May 1998 02:08:06 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Scumbag (continued); F-WORD additions

SCUMBAG (continued)

     "Scumbag" is turning into a worthwhile term for study.  It appears to
have originated in New York City.
      A very useful book is THE ANATOMY OF DIRTY WORDS (1962) by Edward
Sagarin, with an introduction by Allen Walker Read.  This extensive discussion
is from page 155:

     But the key word in this language is one used primarily in lower-economic
groups, and among youngsters, particularly in the urbanized areas of the
eastern part of the United States, where semen is called _scum_ and the condom
is known as _the scum bag_.*
     (* I am informed that this usage is rather limited in the United States
to the East coast, to urbanized areas, and to immigrants and first- and
second-generation Americans.  Several readers, hailing from the South, Mid-
West, and Far West, inform me that they had (a) never heard the word used in
this manner before reaching New York, or (b) never heard the word used in this
manner before reading this manuscript.  I am pleasantly surprised to learn of
the confinement of this practice to a limited segment of the American
population.)
     The dictionary definition of _scum_ is well known.  Literally, it is
waste material that floats at the top of a fluid-containing receptacle.
Figuratively, it is refuse, any waste, and particularly anything vile and
worthless.  _Scum_ is the epitome of the low, dirty, evil, and in proper
societies is so used to apply to people who are looked upon as degraded.
Those who are denigrated and deprecated--they are _scum_.  Vile and
worthless--_they are the scum of the earth_.
     (seven paragraphs deleted--ed.)
     And this is _scum_!  That is what our language calls these most precious
drops without which humanity could not continue.  This is more than simple
irony.  It is bitter tragedy.

      An important book is CURSING IN AMERICA:  A PSYCHOLINGUISTIC STUDY OF
DIRTY LANGUAGE IN THE COURTS, IN THE MOVIES, IN THE SCHOOLYARDS AND ON THE
STREETS (John Benjamins Publishing, 1992) by Timothy Jay.  Table 1 on page 39
is the "Children's Taboo Lexicon."  It doesn't have "scumbag."  However,
"douche bag" was spoken by males ages 9-10 and no females.
      Page 38 states:  "some of the words cross all age ranges and both sexes
(_shit_); others are limited by age (_dink_) or to one sex (_douche bag_ for
males or the word _vagina_ which is produced here only by girls)."
     The "Dirty Word Production Lexicon" is on page 125.   "Douche bag" was
heard six times by seven male listeners recording a male speaker, and "douche
bag" was heard zero times by seven female listeners recording a male speaker.
      Clearly, "scumbag/douche bag" is a male epithet.  Thus, President Bill
Clinton was called a "scumbag," but First Lady Hillary Clinton was called
other things.
      A Worldcat search shows "Leonard's plain uterine douche," which was
designed by Charles Henri Leonard and appears to date from 1880.  The OED's
first citation here is 1887.
      "Dirtbag" (a similar word) shows up twice on a Worldcat title search.
The musical group Man Dingo recorded a song called "Dirtbag" on their 1994
album IFIVE.  And then there is Mike Williams's THE OFFICIAL DIRT BAG
HANDBOOK:  A GUIDE TO LOW-LIVING AND OTHER WAYS OF DISGUSTING PEOPLE,
published at 350 Fifth Avenue, Suite 3308, New York, New York 10001.
      For a true New York City connection, these words would be expected to be
found in the novels of Henry Miller.  And yes, the OED has a TROPIC OF CANCER
(1934) citation for "douche-bag" (not the epithet, however).
      Neither the OED nor the RHHDAS quote Miller's three "Rosy Crucifixion"
novels (SEXUS, PLEXUS, NEXUS) of the 1950s.  PLEXUS has this:

pg. 197  There was one spot, a restaurant, I think, over on Sheridan Square.
"You mean Minnie Douchebag's hangout?"
     "Minnie Douchebag?"
     "Yes, that crazy fairy who sings and plays the piano...and wears women's
clothes."
pg. 310  Everything is cheap, tawdry, vulgar, and phoney.  Minnie Douchebag is
on the same level as the prison warden round the corner.

     Perhaps we can date the "douche bag" and "scum bag" epithets to the
1920s, Sheridan Square, New York City, and Minnie Douchebag?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
F-WORD

     THE ANATOMY OF DIRTY WORDS is also useful if Jesse Sheidlower updates his
THE F WORD.  That book has the sandwich words "absofuckinglutely" and "fan-
fucking-tastic," but not these, from page 148:

     Examples of sandwich words that have been used with some frequency
unclude _irrefuckinsponsible_, _imfuckinpossible_, _unfuckinconscious_, and
_unfuckinsociable_.  In each instance, it is possible that the substitution of
an _e_ for the _i_ following the _k_ might more closely approximate the
pronunciation.

      THE F-WORD also doesn't have this title, which is helpful for "fuck,"
"frig," "cherry," "prick," and "fairy" (possibly an antedate):

         TITLE:  New and gorgeous pantomime
                    entitled Harlequin Prince Cherry top and the good fairy
Fairfuck,
                    or, The frig, the fuck and the fairy.
       PLACE:  Oxford.
PUBLISHER:  University Press.
         YEAR:  1879
  PUB TYPE:  Book
     FORMAT:  30 p. 20 cm.
        NOTES:  At head of title:  Theatre royal, Olymprick.
                      Microfiche.  New York, N.Y., New York Public Library,
19--, 1 sheet.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 May 1998 02:10:24 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Rock 'n' Roll

    Gerald Cohen wrote "Material for the study of _Rock 'n' Roll_" in COMMENTS
ON ETYMOLOGY, vol. 22, December 1992, pp. 2-12, reprinted in STUDIES IN SLANG,
PART IV (1995), pp. 61-73.
    Cleveland disc jockey Alan Freed used "rock 'n' roll" in 1951, but the
1948 hit "Good Rockin' Tonight" contained the lyric "rock and roll around."
    A Worldcat title search shows a few other things to research:

1941--ARTHUR "BIG BOY" CRUDUP: THE FATHER OF ROCK AND ROLL, a 1971 release of
"original 1941-1954 recording," including the song "Rock me mamma."
1949--CALIFORNIA JUMP BLUES, 1983 release of 1949-1953 recordings, including
"I want to rock 'n' roll" by the Scatman.
1950--ROCK 'N ROLL WITH "SCAT MAN" CROTHERS.
1952--ROCK AND ROLL by Hen Gates and his Gaters, including "Rockin' and
rollin' hop."

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 May 1998 01:12:38 -0500
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: -hop & car-hopping

Yongwei Gao wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> I am doing topic-hopping, the frequent switching of topics. The nonce
> word is patterned after bed-hop, channel-hop, club-hop, car-hop and many
> others. Of the definitions for car-hopping, I am most puzzled: as
> bed-hop means  to engage in promiscuous sexual relationships ,
> car-hopping should be something like  the frequent change of automobiles
> during a trip . However, I have so far collected three alternatives:

                <<snip because we all read it>>

Fourth possibility: an alternative to "car hiker", "parking attendant",
and other terms for someone (frequently at highly popular, expensive
restaurants) who helps a customer out of a car, then drives the car to a
nearby parking place, and retrieves it at the customer's request.  I
know that this is non-standard, but I have seen this usage on signs
posted in front of some Chicago restaurants.  (The last one I remember
was in a heavily restauranted area known locally as "Greek Town".)

Another set of alternative terms for people so employed is used after
the car is returned in worse condition than when it was taken away.
Those terms are usually regarded as vulgar, if not downright indecent.

The worst names used for  those who  do this job are reserved for a few
weeks or months after they have performed their service in a manner well
known in upscale neighborhoods in Chicago.  That's when the city goes
after the car's owner to press charges for an unpaid ticket for a
parking violation the owner never heard of, because the one who took the
car and parked it illegally destroyed the ticket before returning the
car.

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 May 1998 07:07:45 -0400
From:    Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rock 'n' Roll

The question of the earliest citation for _rock and roll_ in its musical
noun usage (as opposed to earlier uses as a sex-related verb phrase) may
be of interest.  The OED has a 25 Dec. 1954 citation from _Billboard_,
contributed to them by me, as its first use.  I have subsequently found a
slightly earlier occurrence, however:

1954 _Billboard_ 4 Dec. 22  [Alan] Freed is now calling his program the
"Rock and Roll Show."

Freed is often said to have begun using _rock and roll_ in 1951, but I
have been unable to find any usages in print.  Listings of radio shows in
Cleveland newspapers from the early 1950s do not use the words in
referring to his show.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
 Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
 Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 May 1998 11:49:51 -0400
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: your query

I just read about this construction recently but can't recall where; I'll
keep looking, and perhaps someone else will find it too.  The past perfect
is what's at issue (with deleted participle suffix /d/, common in speech),
and apparently it's becoming used in African American English where simple
past would be sufficient.  Does this fit your findings?


At , you wrote:
>At 04:31 PM 5/21/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>        Recently, I have been hearing  this phrase when someone is
>>responding to various questions such as where were you?  what happened to
>>you?  I thought you were going to....?  and on occassions where someon is
explaining their reasoning for certain answers.
>>reasons for answer etc.
>>
>>Is this a common nonstandard form or is it becoming more common recently?
>>Are there any studies out there on this construction? Where can I find
>>them?
>>
>>Ditra B. Henry
>>ESL Coordinator
>>Project Success
>>Northeastern Illinois University
>>5500 North St. Louis Ave.
>>Chicago, IL  60625-4699
>>ph. 773-583-4050 xt.3162
>>D-Henry1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neiu.edu
>>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 May 1998 09:59:21 -0700
From:    Grant Smith <gsmith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Scumbag (continued)

>     But the key word in this language is one used primarily in lower-economic
>groups, and among youngsters, particularly in the urbanized areas of the
>eastern part of the United States, where semen is called _scum_ and the condom
>is known as _the scum bag_.*
>     (* I am informed that this usage is rather limited in the United States
>to the East coast, to urbanized areas, and to immigrants and first- and
>second-generation Americans.  Several readers, hailing from the South, Mid-
>West, and Far West, inform me that they had (a) never heard the word used in
>this manner before reaching New York, or (b) never heard the word used in this
>manner before reading this manuscript.  I am pleasantly surprised to learn of
>the confinement of this practice to a limited segment of the American
>population.)

I remember hearing _scum_ used as a designation for semen as a young
teenager in the early 50s in Bellingham WA.  The general meaning of _scum_
would seem to make this specific usage among active and poetic teenagers
almost inevitable.

Grant Smith
Eastern Washington University

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 May 1998 14:04:34 -0400
From:    Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: Scumbag (continued)

> I remember hearing _scum_ used as a designation for semen as a young
> teenager in the early 50s in Bellingham WA.  The general meaning of _scum_
> would seem to make this specific usage among active and poetic teenagers
> almost inevitable.

Our earliest cite for _scum_ 'semen' is 1922, which is, conveniently,
13 years before our first _scumbag_ 'condom'. I can't remember the
source offhand (I'm not in the office now).

Jesse Sheidlower
RHHDAS
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 May 1998 17:21:25 EDT
From:    AAllan <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Computers and the arts & humanities

The following comes courtesy of our association with the American Council of
Learned Societies. ADS is not officially involved in the project described
here, but if you think we should be and would like to volunteer, let me know.
- Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>

-----------------------------------------

INVITATION TO JOIN DISCIPLINE-BASED WORKSHOPS ON HUMANITIES NEEDS

Our use of computers and networking technology have mostly been determined
by engineers and computer scientists with little knowledge or understanding
of the work requirements, needs, and unique sets of problems that scholars
and teachers working in the arts & humanities face. The arts and humanities
create and use knowledge in different ways than their computer science and
engineering brethren. As users of new technology we sometimes suffer from a
form of often unwitting "cultural imperialism" exerted by the scientific
community.

Some efforts have been made to determine what the humanities should be
doing to take a more activist and thoughtful role in using and creating
computing technology.  In 1996 the Getty Information Institute issued a
report proposing an outline Research Agenda for Networking Cultural
Heritage with eight essays by scholars on generic issues
(<http://www.gii.getty.edu/ranch/index.html> and see below for details*);
currently, the Council on Library and Information Resources with ACLS is
holding a small series of conversations with scholars and librarians on
their perceived  electronic needs, organized by media: text, images, sound
etc.

As part of NINCH's ongoing research project with the National Academy of
Sciences (see the ACLS Occasional Publication #41, "Computing and the
Humanities") we are proposing to seriously address this issue.  We propose
to systematically engage a set of core humanities disciplines through their
representative learned societies and, through a series of workshops,
examine what their discipline-specific intellectual issues, problems and
requirements are. Results from these workshops can then be used to create a
work-plan for projects that could engage computer scientists and humanities
scholars in creating solutions, tools and more usable technologies.

This work would ultimately be able to contribute to the creation of what
might be called an "Humanities Informatics," a study of how the humanities
create and use knowledge, that could itself be part of a needed study of
the broader history, philosophy and sociology of the arts and humanities,
which, unlike the sciences, it has never had.

This is an area of work that the National Science Foundation is
particularly interested in as it examines how different domains of
knowledge operate.

I look forward to hearing from societies that would be interested in
talking further with us about how we might move forward.

David Green



The Getty Topics were:
1. Tools for Creating and Exploiting Content
2. Knowledge Representation
3. Resource Search and Discovery
4. Conversion of Traditional Source Materials into Digital Form
5. Image and Multimedia retrieval
6. Learning and Teaching
7. Archiving and Authenticity
8. New Social and Economic Mechanisms to Encourage Access.

===============================================================

David L. Green
Executive Director
NATIONAL INITIATIVE FOR A NETWORKED CULTURAL HERITAGE
21 Dupont Circle, NW
Washington DC 20036
www-ninch.cni.org
david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ninch.org
202/296-5346                                  202/872-0886 fax

==============================================================
Subscribe to the NINCH-ANNOUNCE public listserv for news on
networking cultural heritage. Send message "Subscribe NINCH-Announce
Your Name" to <listproc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cni.org>.
==============================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 22 May 1998 23:57:30 EDT
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: "It's all good" (Goodwill Games?)

     Using the ADS-L search archive, I found this posting, "it's all good," by
Judi Sanders of CSU-Pomona, 2 November 1997:

>I can't speak to the origin of "it's all good" except to say that it is not
in RHDAS, >Major's "Juba to Jive" nor Smitherman's "Black Talk."

>I can say that it is widely used by youths (both male and female, and of all
races) >across the country.  Connie Eble collected it this year at UNC, Pam
Munro >collected it this year at UCLA (as she did in 1994), and we collected
it at CFP.  >I've also collected it from Cincinatti in an internet survey.

>Not quite an answer to the origins.  I'd be interested to hear if anyone's
traced it.

>Judi Sanders

     I saw this ad today on the New York City subway:

Something's coming to New York
  and it's all good
The Summer of Goodwill
It's good to go
Call 1-800-GOODWILL
1998 Goodwill Games

     The 1998 Goodwill Games Fact Sheet
(www.businesswire.com/emk/goodwill/goodfact.htm) states that the games will be
in New York City July 19-August 2nd.  The Goodwill Games had been held in
Moscow (1986), Seattle (1990), and St. Petersburg, Russia (1994).
     A portion of the revenues had gone to charity, so "it's all good."
     Did the 1990 Seattle games or the 1994 games use the "it's all good"
phrase?

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 21 May 1998 to 22 May 1998
************************************************