There are 5 messages totalling 99 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Case quarter (2)

 2. Anymore... (3)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 May 1994 16:43:35 -0400

From:  Cathy Ball <CBALL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET>

Subject: Case quarter



A colleague of mine has asked about the distribution and derivation of

the expression 'a case quarter' - as in, Do you have a case quarter?

Meaning, an actual quarter, as opposed to (say) two dimes and a nickel.

I myself don't recall ever having heard it before - the only thing

I could find in the OED that's even remotely plausible is 'case' with

tobacco, meaning 'in good physical condition', or 'case' in 'case-shot',

meaning 'shot, of the kind that comes in cases ... Any ideas?



 -- Cathy Ball (cball[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 May 1994 15:48:43 -0600

From:  F5JTL aka WX3W <f5jtl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CARINA.UNM.EDU>

Subject: Anymore...



A friend of mine used the following sentence on e-mail:



Society is so weird "anymore"



I asked her whether this was a typo and she said no it was not. "Anymore"

meant "nowadays" in that context. Is this something that has been reported

before? Or just another localism (Salt Lake City area)?





Laurent







   ///              ///              ///

   (. .)             (. .)             (. .)

 +oOO-(_)-OOo--------------------oOO-(_)-OOo--------------------oOO-(_)-OOo+

 |  Laurent D. Thomin        Email: F5JTL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNM.EDU or WX3W[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NMT.EDU |

 | Department of Linguistics     Ham Radio Callsigns: F5JTL ** WX3W/5 |

 | University of New Mexico                        |

 |                                     |

 | "We never find out the strength of the evil impulse inside us until we |

 | try to fight it"                            |

 |           C.S. Lewis                     |

 +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 May 1994 21:30:12 -0500

From:  Jeutonne Brewer <BREWERJ[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IRIS.UNCG.EDU>

Subject: Re: Anymore...



No, it isn't a localism for Salt Lake City. It's use is widespread,

although I can't give details without my notes and references in the

office. I do remember though that American Speech printed an item that

quoted a use by D. H. Lawrence.

Jeutonne Brewer



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 May 1994 22:04:38 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Case quarter



Well, there's 'the case n', where n is a denomination of a playing card, as in

'the case 9', 'the case King'. Used in poker (maybe other card games?) for

the last card of that denomination (or suit--someone going for a flush might

despair to notice the case spade surfacing in another hand) available in a

given deal. SOrry if the description is confusing; I can elaborate if

desired. In any...er...case, I don't see any obvious relation to Cathy's case

quarter here anyway.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 May 1994 22:11:53 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Anymore...



Rather than trot out my lengthy list of references on positive (non-polarity)

'anymore', I'll just suggest the poster check out the relevant entry in OED2

(on line or hard copy) or any other large dictionary. Yes, it's a well-known

dialect feature, and yes, it's been much discussed in the literature, going

back to several articles from our own American Speech circa 1931. And no,

it's not just an ignorant error by backwoods residents of X (where X is a

state or location particularly abhorred by the judge), as often claimed in

newspapers, users' groups, and even "expert" usage panels. I'm particularly

fond of the citation "Suffering bores me any more" [yes, two words, which

seems to be the British practice], from D. H. Lawrence's "Women in Love".

Others on this list can better pin down the isogloss, but it's been spotted in

virtually all sections of the country except the northeast and maybe urban

enclaves (Chicago? San Francisco?) elsewhere. What PERCENTAGE of speakers

use it, what percentage of the time, in which registers are questions I don't

know how to begin to answer.



Larry



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 4 May 1994 to 5 May 1994

**********************************************







There are 23 messages totalling 391 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Anymore... (9)

 2. <No subject given>

 3. Case quarter (2)

 4. ADS-L Digest - 4 May 1994 to 5 May 1994 (2)

 5. case quarter

 6. case knife (4)

 7. Affirmative "anymore"

 8. Positive anymore

 9. DARE--failure to use

 10. resending



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 5 May 1994 22:21:41 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike <RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Anymore...



Don Lance or Wayne Glowka might correct me, but I don't think "anymore" is

a Texanism. My impression is that it is mostly upper Midwest, and as Larry

Horn says, has been much discussed. The first time I heard it in Texas was

from an immigrant from Iowa.

    And sorry, Cathy, I haven't heard of a "case quarter", but I'll ask

around on my local net.

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 09:39:56 CST

From:  wormgoor <a.m.wormgoor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STUD.LET.RUU.NL>

Subject: <No subject given>



sign-off ADS



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 06:03:16 -0400

From:  "Becky Howard, Department of Interdisciplinary Writing,

     Colgate University" <BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Anymore...



I've heard it--and used it--all my life. I'm from Appalachia.



Becky Howard

Department of Interdisciplinary Writing

Colgate University

BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 07:30:37 EDT

From:  David Muschell <dmuschel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Case quarter



>A colleague of mine has asked about the distribution and derivation of

>the expression 'a case quarter' - as in, Do you have a case quarter?

>Meaning, an actual quarter, as opposed to (say) two dimes and a nickel.

>I myself don't recall ever having heard it before - the only thing

>I could find in the OED that's even remotely plausible is 'case' with

>tobacco, meaning 'in good physical condition', or 'case' in 'case-shot',

>meaning 'shot, of the kind that comes in cases ... Any ideas?

>

> -- Cathy Ball (cball[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu)



Having taught in rural schools here in Georgia in the mid-70's, I also

found a common use of "Case dime" and "case nickel," meaning "encased" (ie.

not being two nickels, five pennies, or, in the quarter's "case," two dimes

and a nickel, etc.). It was a general request when students wanted an

appropriate coin for a telephone, Coke machine, candy machine... Having

been Atlanta-bred, when I first offered one student a variety of change

after the request, I was rebuffed with "No, a 'case' quarter!" as if I

should immediately know he wanted a whole coin.



--David Muschell (Georgia College)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 12:40:00 GMT

From:  ENG0997[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX2.QUEENS-BELFAST.AC.UK

Subject: Re: Anymore...



It's good to hear that positive "any more" has made it as far

west as Salt Lake City. It's one of Michael Montgomery's key

features in tracing Appalachian English back to Ulster and

further back to Scotland. It supposedly has a Gaelic origin.

Despite that, none of my Belfast students know it at all!



John Kirk

School of English

The Queen's University of Belfast



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 08:02:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Anymore...



I am surprised that the 'case' quarter seekers and answerers have not picked

up their DARE. Although the etymology is speculative, the distribution,

extended senses -- everything is there.

It's been a long time coming; let's use it.

Dennis Preston

22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 08:11:57 EDT

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Anymore...



>Don Lance or Wayne Glowka might correct me, but I don't think "anymore" is

>a Texanism. My impression is that it is mostly upper Midwest, and as Larry

>Horn says, has been much discussed. The first time I heard it in Texas was

>from an immigrant from Iowa.

>    And sorry, Cathy, I haven't heard of a "case quarter", but I'll ask

>around on my local net.

>    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



I never heard it in Texas until I met someone from Pennsylvania--and I

heard it in Pennsylvania and thereabouts in the speech of numerous

people--even transplants from the South. I've tried to explain the usage

to middle Georgians. They scrunch up their noses and cock their heads and

tell anecdotes about how Yankees talk and what Yankees eat--no pork in the

vegetables, etc.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 08:20:27 -0500

From:  Cynthia Bernstein <bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Anymore...



On positive anymore, see Gil Youmans, 1986, American Speech 61, 1.

Cindy Bernstein



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 10:01:51 -0500

From:  ALICE FABER <FABER%LENNY[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VENUS.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 4 May 1994 to 5 May 1994



Positive "anymore" is also used in pockets in the Hudson Valley. My parents

now live in a small town about an hour south of Albany, near the

CT/Massachusetts border, and people of their generation born and raised there

use anymore in unambiguously positive indicative sentences. If it helps in

isoglossing, this was in one of the original Dutch settlement areas and much

of the longtime population is of Dutch ancestry. The church in town is the

Reformed Church (to prefix Dutch would be redundant...).



Alice Faber

Faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Yalehask.bitnet

Faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Yalehask.Yale.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 09:43:00 CDT

From:  Beth Lee Simon <BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Anymore...



Also in Ontario



Beth Simon



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 09:47:00 CDT

From:  Beth Lee Simon <BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU>

Subject: case quarter



DARE Volume I has an entry for *case* (see case n^2 2 "attrib: A coin of

a particular denomination as against the same amount of money comprised

of several coins." This sense is labeled "chiefly S[outh]C[arolina].

We have quots for case dollar, case dime, and case nickel, as well as

case quarter.





Beth Simon

DARE



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 10:35:42 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: Anymore...



See Tom Murray's article on "positive anymore" in T Frazer, ed.,

Heartland Englsih, U of Ala press, 1993. This seems immodest, but, hey,

it's the last, most up to date word on that feature. It appears to be of

scotch irish origin and come from the old Midland dialect area.



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 11:53:44 -0400

From:  Tom <STEPHENS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ZODIAC.RUTGERS.EDU>

Subject: case knife



Does anyone know "case knife"? My mom taught us this term as kids. Usually

it was a knife not used for serious cutting, such as for butter, cheese,

etc. I thought later on that it had to do with the German word for "cheese",

since she is from an area of SC (central western) that had lots of

German immigration. Any ideas?



Tom Stephens

Rutgers, New Brunswick



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 11:55:23 -0400

From:  Robert Kelly <kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Case quarter



This is pure inference, but: I've heard bank personnel (tellers once

upon a time) refer to coins as cased when they are in those stiff little

tubes we layfolk call tubes, the way they're delivered to retailers,

you know, the check-out clerk is always cracking one open while we wait

on line. What more natural than that coins so cased be identified as

case quarters, i.e., quarters you can case. (Rather than 25 cents

otherwise pieced together.)



Or, as Trimalchio would have said, why not?



rk



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 12:25:00 EDT

From:  "Mary.Ojibway" <20676MKB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU>

Subject: case knife



It could be related to German. Then again, the Case knife I have always had is

a sturdy, all purpose pocket knife for camping, etc. Perhaps she uses the word

 as a generic term for all such knives. I have heard Buck used that way. Buck

and Case are both reputable knife manufacturers. Just a thought.

                       K. Ojibway



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 10:36:00 MST

From:  BBOLING[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BOOTES.UNM.EDU

Subject: Affirmative "anymore"



   The ascription of "anymore" with the meaning "now(adays), currently" to

an Ulster origin has little to support it. Among the ca. 125,000 citations

I have compiled of Ulster speech of the 18th and 19th centuries there is

not a single instance of the word with this meaning, nor, like John Kirk, have

I ever heard it so used in Ulster. I have one occurrence of it with the

meaning of "again, further" (replacing earlier simple "more"): "I forgot

that he was to come here any more to-night."



   Bruce D. Boling

   University of New Mexico



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 13:25:21 -0500

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET>

Subject: Positive anymore



I don't yet have frequency tallies and distributions from my Appalachian

data, but I can tell you that I hear positive anymore many times in a

typical day from all kinds of speakers here in Knoxville and the

surrounding area.



Also, it's quite frequent in the Arkansas and Missouri Ozarks.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 11:27:42 -700

From:  Keith Russell <wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]US.DYNIX.COM>

Subject: Re: Anymore...



On Thu, 5 May 1994, F5JTL aka WX3W wrote:



> A friend of mine used the following sentence on e-mail:

>

> Society is so weird "anymore"

>

> I asked her whether this was a typo and she said no it was not. "Anymore"

> meant "nowadays" in that context. Is this something that has been reported

> before? Or just another localism (Salt Lake City area)?

>

Interesting.... I've been in Utah Valley (50 miles south of Salt Lake)

for 12 years, and have not noticed that usage here. On the other hand, I

heard it quite regularly at the University of Illinois in Champaign-Urbana.



Did your friend grow up in Salt Lake?



Keith Russell

wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]us.dynix.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 14:23:47 -0400

From:  Martha Howard <UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU>

Subject: DARE--failure to use



Dennis B. is right. It was along time coming, but now it is here.

Why aren't we using it? For a definitive discussion of positive anymore"

see p. 73, Vol l, DARE. For case quarter and case knife, see p.553, Vol.

I. Martha Howard--retired!



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 17:55:47 -0500

From:  Khalil Walker <walkeba[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject: Re: case knife



My mother also taught us this word for a knife used in a table setting

(not a steak knife).  I grew up here in east-central Alabama and am not

aware of having a significant number of German immigrants in this area.



On Fri, 6 May 1994, Tom wrote:



> Does anyone know "case knife"? My mom taught us this term as kids. Usually

> it was a knife not used for serious cutting, such as for butter, cheese,

> etc. I thought later on that it had to do with the German word for "cheese",

> since she is from an area of SC (central western) that had lots of

> German immigration. Any ideas?

>

> Tom Stephens

> Rutgers, New Brunswick

>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 18:44:15 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 4 May 1994 to 5 May 1994



On Fri, 6 May 1994, ALICE FABER wrote:



> Positive "anymore" is also used in pockets in the Hudson Valley. My parents

> now live in a small town about an hour south of Albany, near the

> CT/Massachusetts border, and people of their generation born and raised there

> use anymore in unambiguously positive indicative sentences. If it helps in

> isoglossing, this was in one of the original Dutch settlement areas and much

> of the longtime population is of Dutch ancestry. The church in town is the

> Reformed Church (to prefix Dutch would be redundant...).

>

In the part of the Hudson Valley I'm familiar with (Kingston and adjacent

areas of Ulster County, shading into the Catskills), I've never heard

"anymore" -- though I wouldn't be surprised to find out it was used in

some place I've often been within two miles of. And redundant or not, in

Ulster County a Reformed chuch is always "Dutch Reformed."



Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 19:03:58 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: resending



This is a reply to someone else's message -- mistaken by the mail software

for a repeat of that message.

 On Fri, 6 May 1994, ALICE FABER wrote:



> Positive "anymore" is also used in pockets in the Hudson Valley. My parents

> now live in a small town about an hour south of Albany, near the

> CT/Massachusetts border, and people of their generation born and raised there

> use anymore in unambiguously positive indicative sentences. If it helps in

> isoglossing, this was in one of the original Dutch settlement areas and much

> of the longtime population is of Dutch ancestry. The church in town is the

> Reformed Church (to prefix Dutch would be redundant...).

>

In the part of the Hudson Valley I'm familiar with (Kingston and adjacent

areas of Ulster County, shading into the Catskills), I've never heard

"anymore" -- though I wouldn't be surprised to find out it was used in

some place I've often been within two miles of. And redundant or not, in

Ulster County a Reformed chuch is always "Dutch Reformed."



Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 6 May 1994 22:30:01 -0500

From:  Nancy Harwood <harwood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TENET.EDU>

Subject: Re: case knife



On Fri, 6 May 1994, Tom wrote:



> Does anyone know "case knife"? My mom taught us this term as kids. Usually

> it was a knife not used for serious cutting, such as for butter, cheese,

> etc. I thought later on that it had to do with the German word for "cheese",

> since she is from an area of SC (central western) that had lots of

> German immigration. Any ideas?

>

Both my parents used "case knife" to refer to a regular table knife as

opposed to a butcher knife or a paring knife. No German background

there...East and Central Texas upbringing, with Tennessee and Alabama

roots.

Nancy Harwood>



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 5 May 1994 to 6 May 1994

**********************************************







There are 11 messages totalling 187 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. ANYMORE

 2. case knife (2)

 3. DARE--failure to use (3)

 4. accent on stage

 5. Getting DARE

 6. Anymore...

 7. y'all (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 May 1994 00:46:26 -0500

From:  ALICE FABER <FABER%LENNY[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VENUS.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: ANYMORE



Here's some more anecdotal observation on positive anymore in the Hudson

Valley...

I've read (I wish I could remember where) that this is a Hudson Valley

feature. This kind of report could indicate that positive anymore WAS found in

the Hudson Valley a generation ago. My parents live in a VERY small town in

southern Columbia County (across the river and a little north of Kingston). My

mother associates positive anymore with a specific friend of hers, a woman of

about 60, who was born and raised in town ("Oh, C- says that."), so it really

may be a relic usage. Next time I talk to my parents, I'll ask if she's heard

anyone else use positive anymore.



Alice Faber

Faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Yalehask.Yale.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 May 1994 10:50:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: case knife



I continue to be delighted by folk etymologies, but, as with 'case quarter'

(-dime, -nickel), there is case knife on p. 553 of Vol. 1 of DARE (in both

senses, i.e., table knife and folding knife - etymologies, distributions,

everything you want to know.)Have some people failed to buy DARE? The biggest

big book bargain of the century (and probably the next)?

Dennis Preston

22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu

Coprrespondents: Please note my change of address. We will apparently no

longer subscribe to Bitnet after mid-June.



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 May 1994 11:33:02 -0400

From:  Cathy Ball <CBALL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET>

Subject: Re: DARE--failure to use



> Dennis B. is right. It was along time coming, but now it is here.

> Why aren't we using it?



I would certainly use DARE if I had access to it (it's not in our

library). Maybe someone could consider making it accessible through the

World-Wide Web? And a version on CD-ROM would be very useful.



 -- Cathy Ball (cball[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 May 1994 11:06:45 EST

From:  "Nancy C. Elliott" <ELLIOTTN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCS.INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: accent on stage



The only time I ever heard RP referred to as a bad accent:

A few years ago our university opera company gave a performance starring

a British voice professor. Being Mozart, the opera had a few spoken lines

here and there. A local reviewer complained, apparently not knowing that

the singer WAS English. He wrote that the performer 'unfortunately...spoke

his lines in a laughable British accent.' Indeed, as soon as this

British singer had uttered his first spoken lines on stage, I heard

members of the audience giggle. (Perhaps they were associating his speech

with Monty Python...) The other members of the cast sounded 'normal': Indianan.

Nancy Elliott

Indiana University



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 May 1994 15:47:28 EDT

From:  Allan Metcalf <aallan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>

Subject: Getting DARE



To quote Dennis Preston,

"Have some people failed to buy DARE? The biggest

big book bargain of the century (and probably the next)?"

Members of the American Dialect Society know what DARE is and where to get

it.

   But if you aren't a member and would like information, including a

sample ADS newsletter with a special bargain price for DARE, just send me

your s-mail address.

- Allan Metcalf, ADS executive secretary <aallan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 May 1994 17:02:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: DARE--failure to use



If, as a recent report suggests, DARE is not in the Georgetown University

library, the institution should be shut down until the situation is taken care

of. If they refuse, accreditation teams should be called in for more serious

consideration.

Dennis Preston



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 May 1994 18:36:14 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Anymore...



Tom Murray's article in HEARTLAND ENGLISH shows (with maps) greater incidence

of positive 'anymore' in the North Midland areas of the corn- and wheat-belt

states than in the Inland North areas. He had data from OH IN IL MI WI MO IA

MN KS NE SD ND. In some constructions positive 'anymore' also was frequent in

all these states.

I agree with Rudy Troike that, at least for those of us born before WW II,

this usage is not common in regional dialects in Texas.

                            DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 May 1994 20:22:46 -0400

From:  "Aaron E. Drews, esq." <DREWSA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET>

Subject: Re: DARE--failure to use



Dennis Preston recently wrote:



> If, as a recent report suggests, DARE is not in the Georgetown University

> library, the institution should be shut down until the situation is taken care

> of. If they refuse, accreditation teams should be called in for more serious

> consideration.

    Sitting in Georgetown's library at present, I have to concur

with Dr. Preston.

____________________________________________________________________

Aaron Drews              <drewsa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu>

Georgetown University         <drewsa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.bitnet>

School of Languages and Linguistics  Class of 1996



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 May 1994 19:11:03 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET>

Subject: y'all



I just got y'alled at the Cracker Barrel Old Time Store in Columbia, Missouri.

The Cracker Barrel is a Tennessee-based chain of restaurant-&-gift-shop

establishments. I was sitting alone and a small table and the waitress

(local dialect) asked "Are y'all ready to order?" I responded with my

order (specially prepared cholesterol) and then commented that she had

said "y'all" and I wondered whether she thought someone might be joining me.

Her response, with some surprise: "Are you expecting someone?"



I suspect that this singular-y'all is limited to certain registers and that's

why some of us y'all-users feel that it isn't regularly used in the singular.

This evening I had a clear instance. As I recall, when this item was

discussed before, most of the examples were from service register. One

example was from the Chair of an English Department in a Southern university.

It seems to me that in Southern interchanges a "boss" -- even a univ dept

chair -- might consider an employee's salary as applying to a family and not

just to the individual, especially if benefits are part of the discussion. The

dept Chair of course was not using a Cracker Barrel service register.

I hope someone surrounded by y'all-speakers is collecting data from students

and the locale. Would spouses use 'y'all' to refer to each other in conver-

sation? Two people on a date, dating in any of the contemporary patterns?

The register distribution of this item can't be simple, whether the reference

is singular or plural.

            DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 May 1994 20:21:34 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all



> I hope someone surrounded by y'all-speakers is collecting data from students

> and the locale. Would spouses use 'y'all' to refer to each other in conver-



Although I'm not formally gathering data, I did ask close to 100 students

earlier this semester if any of them had ever used singular "y'all" or

had ever heard it used in a clearly singular context by a native Southerner.

I got 100% no's.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 7 May 1994 21:21:12 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET>

Subject: Re: case knife



When I was young, we referred to ordinary table knives as case knives.

I have a vague recollection that after we got some steak knives my mother

used the term 'case knife' to differentiate the two types. The DARE

entry tells you more than my musty memory can.    DMLance



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 6 May 1994 to 7 May 1994

**********************************************







There are 13 messages totalling 302 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. case (4)

 2. y'all (5)

 3. Case quarter and Al Futrell

 4. Case quarter, Anymore

 5. DARE--failure to use

 6. Getting DARE



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 May 1994 08:35:25 EDT

From:  Al Futrell <AWFUTR01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU>

Subject: case



One meaning of "case" that DARE does not include is "last." In relation

to money, especially the instance of 'case' meaning 'dollar,' "case"

refers to one's last dollar. Thus, a case dollar is one's last dollar,

so when someone is down to his case dollar or down to his case or caser

he is almost broke. "He took my case note" means he took my last dollar.

This sense of "case" comes from gambling -- and Maurer (Language

of the Underworld) and Clark (Dictionary of Gambling and Gaming) and

Wentworth and Flexner (Dictionary of American Slang) and Goldin,

O'Leary, and Lipsius (Dictionary of American Underworld Lingo) and

even Farmer and Henley (Slang and its Analogues) include this sense of

"case" even though it is missing in DARE.



With regard to "case" suggesting unity, as in a case quarter rather

than 5 nickels, in Kentucky I have often heard people ask for a

"silver" dime when they want an actual dime and not just 10 cents.

Assuming that "case" and "silver" are synonyms and noticing that

DARE's examples of "case" for a coin of a particular denomination

all come from the South, I am wondering how folks above the

Mason-Dixon line refer to a particualr denomination of a coin.

I ask this having grown up in Illinois and not remembering how I

used to talk!



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 May 1994 07:59:54 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: case



> With regard to "case" suggesting unity, as in a case quarter rather

> than 5 nickels, in Kentucky I have often heard people ask for a

> "silver" dime when they want an actual dime and not just 10 cents.



Another expression for it is "solid dime."

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 May 1994 10:12:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU>

Subject: case



The observation that 'case' also has a gambling/underworld sense of 'last'

matches data and memory I have. It would have been excluded from DARE both on

the grounds that it belonged to a special register (or registers) and that it

had no clear geographic distribution.

In this register, however, it is not clear to me if the term 'case' for last

is extended from cards to money or vice-versa. My clearest memory of it (and

this is confirmed in some old data I have from the '60's) is in reference to

cards, particularly 'desirable' ones, and most specifically the 'case ace,'

the last ace in the deck in that hand.

Dennis Preston

N.B.: New address

<22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 May 1994 11:18:00 CDT

From:  Beth Lee Simon <BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all



I think I posted some anecdotal material on y'all around the 2nd week

in March. I had been at a conference with some people from Texas, both

nTX (Denton, Univ. N TX) and San Antonio (small colleges). The nTX

folks said that they used y'all as a singular, while the San Antonio

people refused to accept it. I've recently heard from one of the nTX

people, a friend who offered me this instance.

    My friend was sitting alone in the back seat of a car. In the front

seat was the driver and another passenger. The driver asked, "Y'all

comfortable?" My friend said, "I'm fine, thanks." Then, because I had

asked him about this earlier, he said, "Paul, were you asking me, or

both me and Laurie." Paul said "Only you of course." And Laurie, the

front seat passenger, said she too had taken the question as directed

only at the back seat.

    Of course, the question of comfort and sitting in a back seat

helps to narrow down who should answer.



    Re pl y'all: both north Texans and San Antonio Texans used

"All y'all" for plural, but the San Antonio people see it as an

emphatic, or as an inclusive.



beth

DARE



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 May 1994 12:53:26 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all



In response to Don Lance and Beth Lee Simon's citations of singular y'all, has

it been suggested by someone that at least in some quarters (no, not case

quarters) there's an incipient spreading of the plural 2d person pronoun to

the singular as a sign of formal politeness, exactly analogous to the "V"

forms in Romance (etc.) and presumably to "you" in earlier English? If

someone did mention this on this thread, sorry.     --Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 May 1994 11:36:34 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike <RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET>

Subject: Re: y'all



Larry,

    Yes, I did suggest back in January that a "polite y'all" might be

developing parallel to the original shift of "you" from plural to polite

singular. An example of Sapir's "drift"?

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 May 1994 16:56:59 -0400

From:  Martha Howard <UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU>

Subject: Case quarter and Al Futrell



In response to All Futrell's question about northern usage, I can say that

growing up in the Midwest (Illinois,. Mo., and Michigan), I am sure I never

hear case quarter. If we wanted the specific coin, we said quarter. Other

wise we said twenty-five cents. No one ever gave me two dimes and a nickel

when I had asked for a quarter--which, incidentally, we referred to also as

"two bits".



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 May 1994 16:26:59 -0500

From:  Daniel S Goodman <dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all



On Sun, 8 May 1994, Rudy Troike wrote:



>     Yes, I did suggest back in January that a "polite y'all" might be

> developing parallel to the original shift of "you" from plural to polite

> singular. An example of Sapir's "drift"?

>     --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



So eventually "all y'all" will be the singular? And then whatever evolves

as the plural form of "all y'all" will become the singular?



Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 May 1994 21:01:52 EDT

From:  Michael Montgomery <N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU>

Subject: Case quarter, Anymore



The terms 'case quarter', 'case dime', etc. were new to this Tennessean

when he moved to South Carolina in 1981, but here they are quite

common and are to an extent ethnically marked. I've not had an African

American student in the past five years who didn't know them, while maybe

twenty to thirty percent of white students native to South Carolina do.



As for the positive 'anymore' in American English, I review the evidence

for its having an Ulster connection in "Exploring the Roots of Appalachian

English" in ENGLISH WORLD-WIDE 10.241-42 (1989). Bruce Boling's failure

to find one instance of it in his Irish Emigrant Letter Corpus and the

failure of John Kirk and his Northern Ireland students to hear it are both

important to note. Yet so are James Milroy's statements in his 1981 book

on Belfast speech that positive 'anymore' is "perhaps the most striking

connection between Ulster and the United States . . . . although it must

at one time have been quite widespread in the north of Ireland . . . our

researches have so far uncovered it only in the Irish-speaking area of

Donegal, where it can be used with present or future meaning" (3-4). Most

citations from Ireland and Scotland have future-tense verbs (e.g. 'There'll

be herring any more") that look very different from American patterns of

usage, so perhaps positive 'anymore' has taken on its own development and

is more American than anything else.



But as far as its ultimate source is concerned, Scotch-Irish emigrants

from Ulster are the best bet until the form is attested somewhere else,

despite the puzzle posed by Boling and Kirk not finding it.



Michael Montgomery, University of South Carolina



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 May 1994 21:06:51 -0500

From:  Dennis Baron <baron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

Subject: Re: DARE--failure to use



>

> Dennis B. is right. It was along time coming, but now it is here.

> Why aren't we using it? For a definitive discussion of positive anymore"

> see p. 73, Vol l, DARE. For case quarter and case knife, see p.553, Vol.

> I. Martha Howard--retired!

>



Only it was Dennis P not B. But what's voicing among/between friends?

--



debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu        (\          217-333-2392

                \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron          \'\      __________

Department of English      / '|     ()_________)

Univ. of Illinois        \ '/     \ ~~~~~~~~ \

608 S. Wright St.         \       \ ~~~~~~  \

Urbana IL 61801          ==).      \__________\

                 (__)       ()__________)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 May 1994 21:30:15 -0500

From:  Dennis Baron <baron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all



>

> In response to Don Lance and Beth Lee Simon's citations of singular y'all, has

> it been suggested by someone that at least in some quarters (no, not case

> quarters) there's an incipient spreading of the plural 2d person pronoun to

> the singular as a sign of formal politeness, exactly analogous to the "V"

> forms in Romance (etc.) and presumably to "you" in earlier English? If

> someone did mention this on this thread, sorry.     --Larry

>





I believe I did, Larry, but was soundly trounced on many times for suggesting

the possibility that anyone could use ya'll as a sg, even of politeness. My

thought was that it was repeated the th-/y- pattern. I noticed that no

one objected when I claimed that NYers could youse use in the sg. But since

I'm a NYer my questions on ya'll are stonewalled. Good thing I never

use emoticons.



Dennis

--



debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu        (\          217-333-2392

                \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron          \'\      __________

Department of English      / '|     ()_________)

Univ. of Illinois        \ '/     \ ~~~~~~~~ \

608 S. Wright St.         \       \ ~~~~~~  \

Urbana IL 61801          ==).      \__________\

                 (__)       ()__________)



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 May 1994 21:14:17 -700

From:  Keith Russell <wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]US.DYNIX.COM>

Subject: Re: case



On Sun, 8 May 1994, Al Futrell wrote:



> One meaning of "case" that DARE does not include is "last." In relation

> to money, especially the instance of 'case' meaning 'dollar,' "case"

> refers to one's last dollar. Thus, a case dollar is one's last dollar,

> so when someone is down to his case dollar or down to his case or caser

> he is almost broke. "He took my case note" means he took my last dollar.

> This sense of "case" comes from gambling -- and Maurer (Language

> of the Underworld) and Clark (Dictionary of Gambling and Gaming) and

> Wentworth and Flexner (Dictionary of American Slang) and Goldin,

> O'Leary, and Lipsius (Dictionary of American Underworld Lingo) and

> even Farmer and Henley (Slang and its Analogues) include this sense of

> "case" even though it is missing in DARE.

>

> With regard to "case" suggesting unity, as in a case quarter rather

> than 5 nickels, in Kentucky I have often heard people ask for a

> "silver" dime when they want an actual dime and not just 10 cents.

> Assuming that "case" and "silver" are synonyms and noticing that

> DARE's examples of "case" for a coin of a particular denomination

> all come from the South, I am wondering how folks above the

> Mason-Dixon line refer to a particualr denomination of a coin.

> I ask this having grown up in Illinois and not remembering how I

> used to talk!



Easy.... A quarter is a quarter! If I ask for twenty-five cents, I

expect to get any combination of coins adding up to that amount. If I

asked for a quarter and someone gave me five nickels, my response would

be, "No, I need a quarter!"



In my dialect, and that of my friends, "case quarter" would be clearly

redundant.



Keith Russell

wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]us.dynix.com



------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 8 May 1994 22:37:46 -0500

From:  Khalil Walker <walkeba[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Getting DARE



Thanks,

Khalil Walker



On Sat, 7 May 1994, Allan Metcalf wrote:



> To quote Dennis Preston,

> "Have some people failed to buy DARE? The biggest

> big book bargain of the century (and probably the next)?"

> Members of the American Dialect Society know what DARE is and where to get

> it.

>   But if you aren't a member and would like information, including a

> sample ADS newsletter with a special bargain price for DARE, just send me

> your s-mail address.

> - Allan Metcalf, ADS executive secretary <aallan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>

>



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 7 May 1994 to 8 May 1994

**********************************************



*********

Uh oh. I screwed up and lost the digest for May 9. 

*********



There are 23 messages totalling 477 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. case knife

 2. SECOL y'all (2)

 3. y'all (9)

 4. case, DARE, Georgetown

 5. Anymore...

 6. case (2)

 7. Case Knife

 8. case quarter

 9. Case quarter and Al Futrell

 10. Does Anybody Have Yesterday's Digest? (3)

 11. question



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 May 1994 07:52:35 EDT

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: case knife



My parents used the term--mainly my father--for the blunt, pretty much

useless knives that came with the flatware. I always figured that the name

had to do with the fact that the knives came in a case or chest with the

other utensils. He grew up in Weimar, Texas, a settlement of Czechs and

Germans. His paternal grandmother's people were Germans. He used case

knives as screwdrivers, chisels, and hot irons for melting plastic

together. Consequently, our case knives always had peculiar bends, twists,

and burns in the points.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 May 1994 08:28:29 -0400

From:  "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr." <billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU>

Subject: SECOL y'all



At SECOL in Memphis last month, Guy Bailey in his plenary address reported

on the distribution of singular y'all in Oklahoma. He found that singular

y'all really did exist there---34.4% of his SOD respondents admitted to

using y'all singular, while 71.8% said that they would use y'all plural;

his handout also shows locations of singular y'allers thoughout the state.

Perhaps somebody else can amplify; I think Guy suggested reasons for this

but I was thinking about what I was going to say as plenary respondent at

the time and now cannot clearly remember his remarks on this topic.



******************************************************************************

Bill Kretzschmar         Phone:  706-542-2246

Dept. of English         FAX:   706-542-2181

University of Georgia      Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu

Athens, GA 30602-6205      Bitnet:  wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 May 1994 07:54:22 CDT

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: SECOL y'all



> on the distribution of singular y'all in Oklahoma. He found that singular

> y'all really did exist there---34.4% of his SOD respondents admitted to

> using y'all singular, while 71.8% said that they would use y'all plural;



I had to miss Guy's plenary address that night, but isn't it true that

he has not actually found any instances of unambiguous singular y'all --

that what he has found is people who say that they do use it? What people

claim to do or not do in speech is sometimes quite different from what

they really do.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 May 1994 09:48:46 EDT

From:  Mark Ingram <MAINGR01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all



Larry 'n' Dennis : Y'all should not be trounced upon, pounced upon or

otherwise abused for noting that people use y'all in the sg. It happens every

day. I am a native Kentuckian and I note other Kyans using it to indicate

politeness or diffusion of responsibility. There is sometimes a presumption of

a person or people in the background. I use it with clerks at the hardware

store. Last week a cafeteria worker y'alled me and then ended it with "Honey".

I kinda like it. :-)



Mark Ingram

Lexington, Ky.

maingr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 May 1994 10:14:37 EDT

From:  Sonja Lanehart <R2SLL1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AKRONVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: y'all



I met my husband while I was at the University of Texas. He is from

Minnesota. He swears that in Texas, y'all is singular and all y'all

is plural. I lived in Texas all of my life and I don't recall this

distinction.

Sonja Lanehart

Sonja.Lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]um.cc.umich.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 May 1994 13:03:27 -0400

From:  Cathy Ball <CBALL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET>

Subject: case, DARE, Georgetown



Georgetown does have DARE after all - I looked it up under the wrong

name. Thanks to everyone for their responses to my 'case' query.



 -- Cathy Ball (cball[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 May 1994 12:05:07 CDT

From:  Mike Picone <MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: y'all



Larry Horn said:



> it been suggested by someone that at least in some quarters (no, not case

> quarters) there's an incipient spreading of the plural 2d person pronoun to

> the singular as a sign of formal politeness, exactly analogous to the "V"

> forms in Romance (etc.) and presumably to "you" in earlier English? If

> someone did mention this on this thread, sorry.     --Larry



To which Dennis Baron replied:



>I believe I did, Larry, but was soundly trounced on many times for suggesting

>the possibility that anyone could use ya'll as a sg, even of politeness. My

>thought was that it was repeated the th-/y- pattern. I noticed that no

>one objected when I claimed that NYers could youse use in the sg. But since

>I'm a NYer my questions on ya'll are stonewalled. Good thing I never

>use emoticons.



>Dennis



To which I will add the following:



I was one of those who reacted with initial negativism to the suggestion

that the reported usage of singular y'all was comparable to use of a 2nd per.

pl. form for politeness in Romance languages. (However, I remember that

discussion taking place on Linguist List, not here on ADS-L, or maybe both.)

Anyway, my negativism was based on two interdependent facts:



1) When 2 p. pl forms in Romance languages are used, there is absolutely no

hint or shade of true plurality whatsoever. Polite `vous' in French has not

even the remotest semantic connection for today's speaker with the primordial

plurality that spawned it. Inotherwords, regrammaticalization has been total,

and this despite the fact that the plural `vous', referring to a group,

continues to exist along side of the singular.



2) I have never heard anything like this in Alabama, after 6 years of

residence here. All instances of seemingly singular y'all that I have

heard and immediately inquired about

are of the type that include reference to members of a real or

supposed absentee group.



I concur, however, that this strategy (of absentee reference) might be

an indirect way of achieving polite distance in some speech situations.

And therein may lie a potential bridge, one that some speakers in other

dialect areas may have already crossed: Oklahoma? Parts of Texas? And

maybe parts of Louisiana:



In Louisiana I have met an individual who claims to use singular

y'all in all types of registers, not just those related to service

and politeness. I already posted this to ADS-L (5 March 1994), but, for the

sake of the present discussion, will post it again:



>My interest in Louisiana has much more to do with French than English,

>however, last week when I stopped in Covington for lunch on the way to

>doing some recording in Cajun country, I finally stumbled over what would

>seem to be a singular y'all user:



>I stopped at the Pasta Kitchen for some raviolis (good, too).

>I was alone. My "waitress"

>(that's what she calls herself, though her training manual lists her position

>as "server"), a young woman (late teens or early twenties) came over to my

>table when it appeared I had finished and said, verbatim, "Y'all done now?"

>At first it wasn't clear if this was a contraction of `Are you _all done_ now'

>or a singular y'all. So I inquired to get a fix on her metalinguistic sense of

>this. I will share with you the information that she divulged.



>She grew up and lived in New Orleans until about 5 yrs. ago, and still

>maintains contact with her friends there. It was 5 yrs. ago that she

>moved to "this side of the Lake" (Ponchartrain). She uses singular y'all

>frequently. Her friends point this out to her and tell her not to, "but they

>do it, too." She thinks it's more prevelant "on the other side of the Lake."

>It has nothing to do with being polite. She remembers once getting into an

>argument with a friend: "I started saying y'all to her, and another friend

>sitting there said, `What're you yellin' at me for, I didn't do anything!'"



>She is metalinguistically sensitive indicated by the fact that she has

>consciously tried to eliminate her New Orleans accent (with only partial

>success).



>If anyone is seriously pursuing the question of y'all singular, this might

>be an indication of a good location for some field work.



>Mike Picone



Mike Picone

University of Alabama



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 May 1994 12:42:42 CST

From:  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU

Subject: Re: Anymore...



Thanks for the plug, Dennis! Yes, DARE has case quarter (see case

(superscript 2, sense 2)) and a pretty thorough treatment of positive

_anymore_. If your libraries don't have Vols. I and II of DARE, now might

be a good time to ask that they purchase them (in case there are end-of-year

spending frenzies anymore).

Joan Hall, DARE



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 May 1994 11:47:53 -0700

From:  THOMAS L CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: case



On Sun, 8 May 1994, Dennis.Preston wrote:



> The observation that 'case' also has a gambling/underworld sense of 'last'

> matches data and memory I have.

[snip]

 My clearest memory of it (and

> this is confirmed in some old data I have from the '60's) is in reference to

> cards, particularly 'desirable' ones, and most specifically the 'case ace,'

> the last ace in the deck in that hand.



Dennis has it remembered. According to The Dictionary of Gambling and

Gaming (also not in Georgetown's library), "case" refers to the final one

of a set. Case note is the last dollar of a gambler, case card is the

last of that set undealt, case quarter is the final quarter dropped into

a multiple-coin slot machine.

Cheers,

tlc



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 May 1994 11:50:53 -0700

From:  THOMAS L CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: case



Sorry I jumped too quickly. Al Futrell said it best.

tlc



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 May 1994 16:43:40 CDT

From:  "Krahn, Al" <AKRA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU>

Subject: Case Knife



In the midwest, "case knife" is a verb from the world of

breaking and entering.



To "case knife" a door means to take a table knife (the flat variety)

and slide it between the molding and frame of the door to pop the

lock, esp the type in which the bolt slides easily and is wedge

shaped.



I always wondered why it was called "case."



AKRA



Albert E. Krahn           E-Mail AKRA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU

Division of Lib. Arts and Sciences  Fax  414/297-7990

Milwaukee Area Technical College   Ph (H) 414/476-4025

Milwaukee, WI  53233-1443     Ph (W) 414/297-6519



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 May 1994 17:34:48 CDT

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all



> And therein may lie a potential bridge, one that some speakers in other

> dialect areas may have already crossed: Oklahoma? Parts of Texas? And

> maybe parts of Louisiana:

>

> In Louisiana I have met an individual who claims to use singular

> y'all in all types of registers, not just those related to service



Eek. It's getting close. First the boll weevils crossed the river

(in spite of guards stopping all cars coming across the bridge at

Vicksburg); then armadillos swam over; next thing you know singular

y'all is gonna come sneaking into Mississippi. But it's not here

yet...

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 May 1994 18:17:08 CDT

From:  Mike Picone <MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: y'all



>Eek. It's getting close. First the boll weevils crossed the river

>(in spite of guards stopping all cars coming across the bridge at

>Vicksburg); then armadillos swam over; next thing you know singular

>y'all is gonna come sneaking into Mississippi. But it's not here

>yet...

> --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



It'll probably arrive about the same time as the killer bees.

-Mike



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 May 1994 16:41:37 -0500

From:  Lori H Wiggins <hardelm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject: case quarter



This is in response to the query about the case quarter. I was

interested to see that no one had mentioned any definition that was even

remotely related to what my knowledge of case quarter.



One day a young boy walked up to my husband in a parking lot and asked,

"Hey, you got a case quater I kin have?" My husband replied, "No."

After the boy walked away, I asked David what a case quarter was; he

seemed to know exactly what the boy was asking for. "You know, a case

quarter," he replied, "He means a quarter, but the term came from someone

taking a case quarter with them before leaving the house in case he/she/they

need(s) to make a phone call."



In case your wondering, he was serious.



Lori Wiggins

Auburn University



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 May 1994 21:07:05 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET>

Subject: Re: y'all



Larry Horn asked whether formal politeness had been suggested in the previous

discussion. I think it was implied, but in the cases (not quarters) cited

so far I think there's another dimension -- marking of friendliness

([+familiar]?) in an otherwise semi-formal situation in "server talk".

Beth's example of the car-comfort question is clearly not formal, but it is

analogous to "server talk" in that the driver was in a position to do

something to provide comfortable temperature or whatever in the car.

So I'm still thinkin' it's a register thing. Keep the examples flowing,

y'all.            DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 May 1994 22:51:11 EDT

From:  Mark Ingram <MAINGR01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UKCC.UKY.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all



On the way home today, I stopped at a local vender of fine beverages.

As I took my purchase and started to leave, the proprietor looked at me,

smiled, and said, " Y'all come back." I was standing there alone. This

gentleman is in his 5th to 6th decade, I'd guess. He's very friendly and

has so bid me farewell on several occasions. Folks, it's true. The y'all

singular is alive and well in Ky. But it was very nice the way he said that.



Mark Ingram

Lexington, Ky.



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 May 1994 22:22:07 -0500

From:  Todd N Nims <nimstod[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all



I know yall is used exclusivly plural where I am from, however, it is

used to one person AND their absent, real or imagined, family members,

friends, and etc.

This is Southwest Alabama.



Todd N. Nims



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 May 1994 08:13:05 EDT

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: y'all



I'll not enter the singular/plural discussion. There are too many people

from too many places trying to use "y'all." But it sure was difficult to

avoid using y'all when I lived up north for about five years. In-grained

habits are hard to break, but I got very tired of giggles and jokes about

whether or not I wore shoes. I also got tired of hearing a parody

"you-all" drawled with Mid-Atlantic vowels. Moving to Georgia allowed me

to speak Texican again without the giggles.



An interesting class activity is to ask students to spell "y'all." Not

many of my students can get the apostrophe in the right place. With lower

level students, you can also throw in "don't," "doesn't," and "won't,"

forms which normally come out in many freshman papers as "do'nt,"

"dose'nt," and "wo'nt." Greta Little has a nice exercise that requires

students to go around town looking for apostrophes in order to write

"rules" to describe how signmakers actually use apostrophes.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 9 May 1994 21:45:43 EDT

From:  BERGDAHL%A1.OUVAX.mrgate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: Case quarter and Al Futrell



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783          <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX>

To:   NAME: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" <MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX>



I concur with Martha Howard's experience: a quarter or 2 bits referred to the

coin, 25 cents referred to any collection of coins. Grew up in NY and in

Upstate NY, Boston and Ohio have never heard of a case quarter.

                        DAVID

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH    BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 May 1994 07:41:00 CDT

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Does Anybody Have Yesterday's Digest?



In shuffling things between two systems (in order to run the vacation

program and the mail-filtering program at the same time -- both of which

require use of the .forward file), I've managed to lose yesterday's

ADS-L digest. Since I'm trying to keep a complete archive for the list,

I would appreciate it if anybody out there still has a copy of it and

could send it to me. Thanks! (The one I've lost -- or rather never

got -- is for May 9 -- the one that would have been sent early on

May 10.)

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 May 1994 10:06:42 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: Does Anybody Have Yesterday's Digest?



what's a digest? never seen one.



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 10 May 1994 11:12:21 CDT

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Does Anybody Have Yesterday's Digest?



> what's a digest? never seen one.



The name "digest" is misleading since nothing is digested. It's a

LISTSERV feature that lets you get all the mail for the day from a

particular list in one lump instead of spread out. The digests usually

go out shortly after midnight.



Anybody interested in the digest version of ADS-L can send this command

to the listserv:



set ADS-L digest



  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 May 1994 08:25:00 CDT

From:  Edward Callary <TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NIU.BITNET>

Subject: question



 Can anyone provide recent bibliography on the distribution

of 'pop' versus 'soft drink,' etc.



Edward Callary

TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mvs.cso.niu.edu

Make sure of TBZero rather than the letter O



Thanks



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 8 May 1994 to 12 May 1994

***********************************************





There are 11 messages totalling 226 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. genitive in names of businesses (7)

 2. peckerwood (2)

 3. The text asnd beyond.

 4. soda pop



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 May 1994 10:08:47 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: genitive in names of businesses



In central Illinois, when business have singular name there is a

tendency to render the name in the genitive. Hence:

Eagle Supermarket -------> Eagle's

John Deere & Co. -------> Deere's



It doesnt seem remarkable when the business ends in a name to bewgin

with, e.g. Kroger---> Kroger's. But "Eagle's" -- wel, its not the

eagle's business.



ZIs this everywhere, or is a regionalism?



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 May 1994 10:05:09 -0800

From:  Scott Schwenter <schwen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSLI.STANFORD.EDU>

Subject: Re: genitive in names of businesses



>In central Illinois, when business have singular name there is a

>tendency to render the name in the genitive. Hence:

>Eagle Supermarket -------> Eagle's

>John Deere & Co. -------> Deere's

>

>It doesnt seem remarkable when the business ends in a name to bewgin

>with, e.g. Kroger---> Kroger's. But "Eagle's" -- wel, its not the

>eagle's business.

>

>ZIs this everywhere, or is a regionalism?

>

>Tim

Also, in Michigan, many people say 'Kmart's' or 'Walmart's'. But this seems

to be somewhat different since the person who owns the business isn't named

Kmart or Walmart (cf. Kroger).

Scott



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 May 1994 13:53:46 EDT

From:  David Bergdahl <bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>

Subject: peckerwood



          Ohio University Electronic Communication





  Date: 12-May-1994 01:46pm EST



   To: Remote Addressee           ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU )



  From: David Bergdahl               Dept: English

     BERGDAHL                 Tel No: (614) 593-2783



Subject: peckerwood





    Our lunch bunch came up with a query today: they wanted to know abt

PECKERWOOD. I said, quoting Carver's American Regional Dialects that it was an

example of metathesis or inversion, and gave some of his examples: hoppergrass,

carbox, doll-baby [which is very prevalent around here], right-out &c. No, no,

they said, they didn't want to know about it as an example of a type of word

formation, they wanted to know how it got to be a slur. Three questions,

really, now: (1) Do you recognize peckerwood as an insult? (2) What's the

meaning? (3) What groups are involved? is the peckerwood always a white? do

whites use the term as well as blacks?

                        DAVID

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH    BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU

        "Gateway to Appalachia"







Received: 12-May-1994 01:53pm



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 May 1994 14:37:21 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: genitive in names of businesses



Funny you should mention this trend. In fact yesterday I stopped at our local

branch of the major East Coast discount store Caldor with my 12-year-old son

who wondered why if the store is named Caldor (as it is, in big letters on the

outside and little ones on the wagons, the receipts, etc.), the commercials

always refer to it as "Caldor's". I suggested it was to honor the founder,

Mr. Caldor, but he wasn't buying--"Old Man Caldor's?" he asked dismissively.

Caldor-->Caldor's is, in other words, precisely the same mechanism as

Eagle-->Eagle's, whatever that might be.



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 May 1994 13:54:09 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: genitive in names of businesses



> >Tim

> Also, in Michigan, many people say 'Kmart's' or 'Walmart's'. But this seems

> to be somewhat different since the person who owns the business isn't named

> Kmart or Walmart (cf. Kroger).



But it is like "Eagle's." Maybe this is everywhere, since a major

dialect boundary separates Michigan and central Ill.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 May 1994 14:51:10 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: genitive in names of businesses



Funny, I've never heard "Kmart's", even though it's precisely of the same form

as "Caldor('s)". Maybe the '-mart' morpheme is just TOO non-personal.

Incidentally, the main alternative to Caldor('s) is Bradlees (no apostrophe),

which may be one factor in the shift. We don't have Walmart here yet, but it

would strike me as equally weird to have "Walmart's". On the other hand, we

do have Walgreens, but that COULD be a name (cf. Woolworths).



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 May 1994 14:00:38 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: The text asnd beyond.



Cynthia, a belated congrats on the appearance of your book! I hope I can

get my department to let me teach a course where I can use it.



All you ADSers out there: is Cynthia'

s book the only such volume where linguists work on literary texts? Are

there other books out there which students can read (besides Geoffry Leach,

wheich I think is dated). I'd like to see more linguists working on

literary problems, outside of journals like "Style" etc. Stuff we can

use

we can use in classes.



Sorry for the mess here, my screen is

junked up.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 May 1994 21:35:45 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: genitive in names of businesses



On Thu, 12 May 1994, Larry Horn wrote:



> Funny, I've never heard "Kmart's", even though it's precisely of the same form

> as "Caldor('s)". Maybe the '-mart' morpheme is just TOO non-personal.

> Incidentally, the main alternative to Caldor('s) is Bradlees (no apostrophe),

> which may be one factor in the shift. We don't have Walmart here yet, but it

> would strike me as equally weird to have "Walmart's". On the other hand, we

> do have Walgreens, but that COULD be a name (cf. Woolworths).

>

> Larry

>

Anybody remember whether the Walgreen sign has an "s" on the end? I

haven't seen one since the Nixon administration.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 May 1994 22:25:36 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET>

Subject: Re: soda pop



Ed Callary asked about 'soft drink' and 'pop'. I haven't done any biblio

search, but I have lots of data that I'll start working with in '95. When

I mapped some data in 1976, collected 1970-76, I found 'soda' in the

eastern half of MO and 'pop' in the western half, and down the middle

was  where 'soda pop' occurred most often. In western areas (urban) of the

state 'coke' is the generic. 'Soft drink' is the form that one would

write. This semester a good half dozen of my dialect class reported on

language contact between soda-speakers and pop-speakers or one of these

with coke-speakers. These forms seem to be patch-workly regional and

are commented on by younger speakers, though not with an implication of

stigmatization. About a dozen years ago when I was on a trip to northern

Alabama, I caught myself saying 'cold drink' with the "right" intonation

and surprised myself. I really don't remember what I used in my "younger

days" in South Texas, but I know I was aware that all of these terms were

used for carbonated beverages. Here I'm aware of Mizzou students' competing

forms and have played around with 'soda' and 'pop' so much that I'm not

sure what I grew up with. I suspect, 'soda' and 'cold drink' (the latter

with the stress pattern of a compound noun). Not what you asked for, Ed,

but you got it anyway. I understand there's regionality to 'pop' and

'soda' in Illinois, Michigan, and Wisconsin -- also north-south isoglosses.

                            DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 May 1994 22:41:11 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET>

Subject: Re: genitive in names of businesses



A friend of mine in Austin TX, who grew up in Waco, shopped at "Safeway's,"

so, Tim, if there's regionality, it's a pretty wide region that includes

Macomb IL and Waco TX. I'm sure I've heard others in Texas say

"Safeway's" but I haven't noticed it in Missouri, though I'd expect

it to occur spradically.

            DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 May 1994 22:45:49 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET>

Subject: Re: peckerwood



There was a discussion of 'peckerwood' on this list about a year and a half

ago. It has been around for some time.

1. Insult? Among Southern males it casts mild or strong aspersions on a

  person's character, depending on immediate reference.

1'. How it got to be a slur. Maybe because of 'pecker' element.

2. Meaning? For me, implications of dishonesty.

3. Race? Used by both races. I came across a folk tale told by a Black in

  St Joseph MO in the 1890s in which a talking bird was sometimes called

  'woodpecker' and sometimes 'peckerwood'. If it's crucial, David, I could

  look it up for you. I don't know myself how the term is used by

  African Americans.

The folk tale with talking birds suggests that the usage may be related in

some way to trickster tales and their cultural application.

                            DMLance



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 12 May 1994

*********************************





There are 20 messages totalling 416 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. genitive in names of businesses (7)

 2. genitives

 3. pop (3)

 4. peckerwood (2)

 5. The text asnd beyond.

 6. Flower scent and dialect (4)

 7. genitive in names of busines

 8. mooning



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 May 1994 00:00:07 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: genitive in names of businesses



Well, I can vouch for the absence of any official -s in our local Walgreen,

which doesn't stop it from being referred to as Walgreens. (Somehow the

apostrophe doesn't look right on these particular pseudo-genitives.)



                           Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 12 May 1994 18:38:05 EDT

From:  BERGDAHL%A1.OUVAX.mrgate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: genitive in names of businesses



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783          <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX>

To:   NAME: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" <MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX>



Everywhere!

                        DAVID

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH    BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 May 1994 08:14:38 EDT

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: genitive in names of businesses



>> >Tim

>> Also, in Michigan, many people say 'Kmart's' or 'Walmart's'. But this seems

>> to be somewhat different since the person who owns the business isn't named

>> Kmart or Walmart (cf. Kroger).

>

>But it is like "Eagle's." Maybe this is everywhere, since a major

>dialect boundary separates Michigan and central Ill.



To the horror of my native wife, older women that she knows in middle

Georgia say "Kmart's" and "Walmart's." However, there seems to be no

stigma attached to "J. C. Penney's" and "Belk's" for "J. C. Penney" and

"Belk."





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 May 1994 07:44:03 -0600

From:  tthonus <tthonus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INDIANA.EDU>

Subject: genitives



Genitives in names of commercial establishments are salient enough to

have been mimicked in "Brazilian English." Some examples I found in two

Brazilian cities:

Bejom's Moda

Whiskey's House

Joe's Hot Shop

Andrade's Sports

For more, see World Englishes 10.1 (1991)



Terese Thonus



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 May 1994 08:28:00 CDT

From:  Edward Callary <TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NIU.BITNET>

Subject: pop



Thanks to Don Lance and Tim Frazer for their responses on

'pop' and 'soft drink,' etc. I'm beginning to think now that

the DARE data (summarized by Carver) might be all of the

published work there is on the distribution. Here in Northern

Illinois, 'pop' is not only universal, but exclusive in the

generic sense; i.e., a cola-type beverage may be called 'coke'

but it's always 'Get some pop at the store.' One of my first

experiences with this term was some years ago when I moved to

DeKalb. The service stations were competing with one another

then by giving lagniappes with fillups. After one such the

attendant (this station was not self-serve) asked: 'Want some

pop?' Never one to turn down a request like this, I said 'Sure.'

He brought me a six-pack of Coca-Cola. This from a 60 year old

man, so the term was well-established for at least several

generations.



Bibliography would be appreciated, or at least comments from

people like Frazer and Lance that they know of none.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 May 1994 08:45:00 CDT

From:  Beth Lee Simon <BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU>

Subject: Re: genitive in names of businesses



In Madison, we find

Cub Foods, or Cub's

Kohl's

Sentry

Woodman's (When I asked about this, is it "Woodman Foods"? or "Woodman

Grocery Store or ~ Groceries, I was told it's "Woodman's")

Ken Kopps (which is the owner's name. BUT, I have seen Kopp's)





beth



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 May 1994 08:53:00 CDT

From:  Edward Callary <TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NIU.BITNET>

Subject: peckerwood



Re; Peckerwood. My Oklahoma/New Mexico experiences (I'm not

a native peckerwood user, but I picked it up there and found

it a most useful term. A number of my academics colleagues

are classic peckerwoods). Anyhow, I came to the word with no

emotional involvement nore native intuition, so I curiously

looked at its usage. There, in at least Western Oklahoma and

eastern new mexico, in at least the more rural areas (I taught

in a very small, very rural, very typical school. Peckerwood was

often used by the staff there, even to a student's face, to refer

to a student who was a little dickens, a skeezix, a loveable

rascal, someone who even was a pleasant diversion. 'That so and ao,

what a peckerwood,' said with a smile upon one's face. With adults

it had a different connotation: someone (always a male; it was

never used to refer to females) who was shiftless, engaged in

borderline legal activities, if indeed any activities at

all. And the borderline activities are not the accepted ones

like bootlegging, but theft, etc. I picked the word up there

and find it useful especially to refer to mischivous children,

cute but 'a handful.' There I knew of no racial distributions,

but that was 20 years ago; now it might be a considerable slur.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 May 1994 09:50:15 -0500

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: genitive in names of businesses



>In central Illinois, when business have singular name there is a

>tendency to render the name in the genitive. Hence:

>Eagle Supermarket -------> Eagle's

>John Deere & Co. -------> Deere's



Maybe in your part of central Illinois, but not in mine. Sure Kroger >

Kroger's, but

Jewel, Eagle, and IGA are uninflected. (Perhaps this is an uninflected

genitive).

Schnucks and other business names ending in s are of course ambiguous,

though I

don't think you hear Schnuckses or Prairie Gardenses. Carson Pirie Scott

is Carson's.

Yen Ching is Yen Ching.



Dennis (that's uninflected, right?)



------



Dennis Baron                       debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English                  217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 May 1994 11:29:42 EDT

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: peckerwood



EDWARD CALLARY WROTE:



>Re; Peckerwood.....in at least Western Oklahoma and

>eastern new mexico, in at least the more rural areas. . . . Peckerwood was

>often used by the staff there, even to a student's face, to refer

>to a student who was a little dickens, a skeezix, a loveable

>rascal, someone who even was a pleasant diversion. . . . There I knew of no

>racial distributions. . . .



I remember using the term as a high school student in Texas in the late

sixties. We used the term with no racial implications. A person who did

something like pour soda water or coke on me while I was lying there with

my eyes shut would be accused of being a peckerwood. I never really knew

at all what the term meant exactly (like "fink" or "twerp"), but I used it

as necessary.









Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 May 1994 10:08:36 -700

From:  Keith Russell <wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]US.DYNIX.COM>

Subject: Re: pop



We have 'pop,' 'soda,' 'soda pop,' and 'soft drink.' What about 'tonic,'

which no one has mentioned. Can anyone tell me the distribution of this

term, which shocked the first time I heard it from a New Hampshire native?

(To me, 'tonic' is medicine, and wouldn't be expected to taste good!)



Keith Russell

wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]us.dynix.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 May 1994 12:47:21 -0400

From:  Tom McClive <tommcc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GIBBS.OIT.UNC.EDU>

Subject: Re: genitive in names of businesses



It would seem the genitive is merely a product of a proper name, or

anything that could be treated as a proper name.



For instance, this could happen:

    Lance Hardware -> Lance's

    Eagle Hardware -> Eagle's



But not this:

    Ace Hardware  -> Ace's (?)

    Best Hardware -> Best's (?)





Even though 'Eagle' may not be a proper name, it could be used as one.

'Ace' sounds more like a description, and 'Best' is certainly a

description. If the store sounds like a name, we would go with the

percieved last name:



    JC Penney -> Penney's  (not JC's)

    Ace Dunley -> Dunley's  (not Ace's)









  Tom McClive

  tommcc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gibbs.oit.unc.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 May 1994 11:54:15 -0500

From:  Cynthia Bernstein <bernscy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject: Re: The text asnd beyond.



As much as I'd like to claim exclusive rights to the territory, there are

a number of other edited ling/lit volumes that have come out recently:

Roger Sell (Routledge 1991), Michael Toolan (Routledge 1993), Michael

Macovski (Oxford 1993). Look also for a book by Tim Austin coming out with

Alabama in the near future.

Cindy Bernstein



On Thu, 12 May 1994 mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU wrote:



> Cynthia, a belated congrats on the appearance of your book! I hope I can

> get my department to let me teach a course where I can use it.

>

> All you ADSers out there: is Cynthia'

> s book the only such volume where linguists work on literary texts? Are

> there other books out there which students can read (besides Geoffry Leach,

> wheich I think is dated). I'd like to see more linguists working on

> literary problems, outside of journals like "Style" etc. Stuff we can

> use

> we can use in classes.

>

> Sorry for the mess here, my screen is

> junked up.

>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 May 1994 13:44:15 EDT

From:  KDANN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: Flower scent and dialect



Hello,



"And because the breath of flowers is far sweeter in the air (where it comes

and goes like the warbling of music) than in the hand, therefore nothing is

more fit for that delight, than to know what be the flowers and plants that

do best perfume the airs."

   --Francis Bacon



Bacon may have believed that there was nothing "more fit for delight," but

few people these days seem to know "what be the flowers and plants that do

best perfume the airs." I've found that many folks are struck dumb when asked

to identify the source of a particularly cloying scent wafted on some June

breeze, be it in Nebraska or New Jersey. I'm curious to know what floral

fragrances--not so much of garden annuals or perennials, but of the woody

native and non-native plants (street trees in urban areas, for instance) that

make up your local landscape--are most familiar to people in your

neighborhood, and whether there are any distinctive local names for plants

based on their fragrance.



For example: I've always been interested in the host of plants whose flowers

give off a semen-like odor (gingko, barberry, etc.), and met someone here in

Arizona who calls an unidentified tree the "sex tree" because of this odor. I

think Linnaeus classified these smells as "Hircinae," i.e. goat-like in odor.

The ADS list members have such a treasure of linguistic idiosyncracy; any

botanical smell lore out there?



Osmically Yours,

Kevin Dann

Scottsdale, AZ (where pineapple-smelling acacias now fill the air)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 May 1994 13:48:38 -0400

From:  Ellen Johnson <ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Flower scent and dialect



The 'sweet shrub' is the one that immediately comes to mind. I have no

idea what its botanical name is. It's small, grows in the (deciduous)

woods, and has a brown flower with sort of woody petals which can be

picked and tied into a sachet.



By the way, the honeysuckle has been extremely potent this year, worth

riding with the windows down.



Ellen Johnson

ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 May 1994 14:58:07 -0400

From:  Arnold Zwicky <zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.OHIO-STATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Flower scent and dialect



Calycanthus floridus (sweet shrub, or Carolina allspice). we have

two outside our dining room windows in columbus (ohio). we also

have bush honeysuckle, mockorange, and (korean) box, all of them

quite fragrant, in the garden. and an indian lime tree in a pot;

it is covered with blooms right now, and gives off an intense

sweet smell.



when we're in palo alto, we have a set of victorian box trees

(Pittosporum undulatum) just across the street; they scent the

entire neighborhood. after them come the wisterias and jasmines.



i've already forgotten why i'm discussing this on ADS-L...i think

the fragrances have gotten to me.



arnold



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 May 1994 14:13:11 -0600

From:  Larry Davis <DAVIS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WSUHUB.UC.TWSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: genitive in names of businesses



Dennis--just where is your part of central Illinois? Everyone come to Dennis'

to learn the answer.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 May 1994 16:42:34 -0500

From:  Todd N Nims <nimstod[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject: Re: pop



In Southwest Alabama, coke is used almost exclusivly by people raised in

the area. If coke isnt used then drink (w/o soft) would be used in its

place. However, since the area has become more and more a "haven" for

snowbirds, people who have moved in from nearby cities, and tourists,

I have heard most all of the words presented on this list at one time or

another. Also, when you want to specify a specific brand you would just

give its brand name (of course).

Todd N. Nims



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 May 1994 16:51:01 -0500

From:  Todd N Nims <nimstod[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Flower scent and dialect



The two most obvious flowers I can think of would be wisteria, which I

have seen turn entire forests blue and white and fill the air with a

wonderful smell unlike any other, and, what Mobile, AL is famous for,

Azaleas.



Todd N. Nims



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 May 1994 20:22:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: genitive in names of busines



Tom McClive's hypothesis is interesting, but it doesn't match data Don Lance

sent in, nor mine - e.g. Best's, WalMart's, and the latter cannot be

misconstrued as a name.

Ace, by the way, was a big-time nickname where I grew up (around Louisville, K

Y), and 'Let's go over to Ace's' sounds good to me.

Dennis Preston

22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 13 May 1994 23:41:36 -0400

From:  Kathleen Kelly <kakelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject: mooning



colleagues--can anyone provide info on the earliest attested use of the

term "mooning"--the defiant showing of buttocks, usually at figures of

authority, by adolescent types? Thanks, Kathleen Kelly



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 12 May 1994 to 13 May 1994

************************************************





There are 2 messages totalling 62 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. The text and beyond Cynthia.

 2. genitive in names of businesses



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 14 May 1994 15:55:13 -0700

From:  THOMAS L CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: The text and beyond Cynthia.



I am looking forward to seeing Cynthia Bernstein's ling/lit book. It

brings up a slightly out of ADS query:

  This fall I will be conducting a grad seminar in "Linguistics and

Poetry." Our English dept feels it is high time that students of lit have

a smattering of familiarity with the language in which their lit is

conducted.

 For texts I selected Richard Bradford's Routledge book, _A Linguistic

History of English Poetry_ and Elizabeth Traugott's _Linguistics for

Major in Literature_. But I'm looking for ancillary things for the

reserve shelf and for individual assignments (each student gets another

personally assigned text). I'm having trouble coming up with a balanced

list of these. I have Hill, Levin, and all the older things in

structural studies and stylistics, but need a newer listing. I'm glad

Cynthia listed some. I'd like some more, if anyone has suggestions.

  We are holding Lingusitics and Prose Lit for next year. Right now I'm

interested in Linguistic studies of English language poetry from 1600.

Please reply directly to me. If the response warrants, I'll put a

bibliography on the list. Dare we hope that a bibliography of linguistic

studies of literature could exist? As rare as an Elvis sighting.

Cheers,

tlc



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 14 May 1994 18:16:22 -0500

From:  Dennis Baron <baron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

Subject: Re: genitive in names of businesses



>

> Dennis--just where is your part of central Illinois? Everyone come to Dennis'

> to learn the answer.

>



Well that should be evident by the return address. Busey Bank is a family

name locally, but never Busey's. Ditto Bacon and van Buskirk Glass. Ace

Hardware never inflected, though Black's is. May's True Value is. Now

that I think about it, we do say Osco's for the drug chain from time to

time. But still never Jewel's for the attendant grocery (not groshery).



But then, who is we, anyway? A bunch of transplants from other part s

of the country.



And of course, the answer to Does Macy's tell Gimbel's has to be "no,"

since Gimbels is no more.



--



debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu        (\          217-333-2392

                \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron          \'\      __________

Department of English      / '|     ()_________)

Univ. of Illinois        \ '/     \ ~~~~~~~~ \

608 S. Wright St.         \       \ ~~~~~~  \

Urbana IL 61801          ==).      \__________\

                 (__)       ()__________)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 13 May 1994 to 14 May 1994

************************************************





There is one message totalling 16 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. The text and beyond Cynthia.



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 15 May 1994 07:12:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: The text and beyond Cynthia.



Tom,

I assume you know Dick Bailey and Dolores Burton's English Stylistics: A

Bibliography (MIT Press, 1968), much of which is devoted to 'linguistic

stylistics.' There is, however, a less well-known supplement: James Bennett,

Bibliography of Stylistics and Related Criticism, 1967-83 (MLA, 1986) which

you ought to look through. Lots of 'non-linguistic' stuff in both, but both

are very useful for what you want to do.

Dennis Preston

22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 14 May 1994 to 15 May 1994

************************************************





There are 7 messages totalling 162 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. genitive in names of businesses (3)

 2. The text and beyond Cynthia.

 3. Flower scent and dialect

 4. pop -- aka "dope" in these parts (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sun, 15 May 1994 23:16:22 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike <RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET>

Subject: Re: genitive in names of businesses



Nor, Dennis (B.), is May's True Value, as of my last visit two years ago,

in which I came away grieving the loss (unless they have simply relocated

to another part of town). But that was the name, and the Mays a valued

family to their many customers.

    (The nor in response to "Gimbels is no more", in case anyone missed

the antecedent.)

    I'll have to scope out the local scene. I think Walmart (recently

arrived, and hence not part of the folk-reference), is simply Walmart.

But we do have Carl's Jr. (hamburger chain, for all you non-Californians),

again the official title. Personally, I've often shopped at Safeway, never

at Safeway's.

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)

 P.S. A reminder, for the benefit of those who log messages: please include

your name and e-mail address at the END of messages. It takes space to log

the whole header, and time to edit out the junk to save the name.

We all know right now who the person is who signs the message, but will we

be able to reconstruct that a year from now?



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 16 May 1994 08:00:53 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: The text and beyond Cynthia.



Dennis,



good luck putting together a corse on ling & lit. My experience is that

Englihs majors often do not even know how to do traditional scansion or

recognize alliteration.



I, too, would welcome such a bibliography.



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 16 May 1994 09:27:22 EDT

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: genitive in names of businesses



Dear Folks,



    I spent the weekend in Boaz, Alabama, in order to go to a family

reunion on my wife's side in Martling, just a chug down and up the mountain

from Albertville. Upon arrival in Martling--yeah, in the first minute of

my sojourn--a Martling native in her 80's or so announced that so-and-so

couldn't come to the reunion because she had to work at "Wal-Mark's" (/k/

is what I heard) (I was told that all the really old women there had not

been allowed to go to school). Within the next ten minutes, I heard a

women in her sixties--a blood relative--say that she spends a lot of time

in "Wal-Mart's."



    There were also a lot of other amazing things to listen to. For a

while, I had trouble understanding what was being said to me until I

figured out the current state of the vowel shift in Martling.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 16 May 1994 09:40:35 EDT

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Flower scent and dialect



>

>For example: I've always been interested in the host of plants whose flowers

>give off a semen-like odor (gingko, barberry, etc.), and met someone here in

>Arizona who calls an unidentified tree the "sex tree" because of this odor. I

>think Linnaeus classified these smells as "Hircinae," i.e. goat-like in odor.

>The ADS list members have such a treasure of linguistic idiosyncracy; any

>botanical smell lore out there?

>

>Osmically Yours,

>Kevin Dann

>Scottsdale, AZ (where pineapple-smelling acacias now fill the air)



--Gingko smells like dog mess in the hot sun, pure and simple.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 16 May 1994 15:01:20 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET>

Subject: pop -- aka "dope" in these parts



I just read the last few days ADS communications. To my surprise, there

was no mention of "dope," the area generic term for "canned or bottled,

usu. carbonated, non-alcoholic beverage." I am not certain I had ever

heard the term before I moved to Knoxville in 1974. The term is not

as widely used as "ink-pen"--certainly, younger urban speakers do not use

it--but the term is widely used by older and rural speakers. One day a

few years ago I was looking for a checkout lane at a local Krogers

(Kroger's, if you prefer). There were some groceries sitting alone.

In a moment a woman came up clutching several 2-liter "Coca-Colas" in her

arms. SHe said, apparently apologetically, "I wanted to get me some

more dopers." It's usually just "dope," though I also occasionally

hear "brown doper" or "orange doper" (for cola drinks or what some

people still call "big oranges"). It seems that Coca-Cola originally

either did ordid not contain codeine (I've read a lot about it, but

nothing seems dispositive), and that's whre the term originated. One

explanation is that the local moonshiners were afraid the popularity of

Coca-Cola would interfere with profits, so they started the rumor. Another

explanation is that the original formula DID contain "dope." Anyway, I

wanted you to know that the term is alive and well, though probably shrinking

in distribution and frequency. When I mention the term in undergraduate

classes, most of my students are familiar with it.



Bethany Dumas (in%"dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu")



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 16 May 1994 15:03:06 -0400

From:  Ellen Johnson <ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: pop -- aka "dope" in these parts



"Coke" is the generic term here in Athens, GA, but Bethany reminds me

that the elided "co-cola" is still common in rural areas, especially to

the south and east. Ellen Johnson



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 16 May 1994 18:09:06 -0500

From:  Dennis Baron <baron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

Subject: Re: genitive in names of businesses



May's is alive and well, at least in Urbana -- and Champaign, so far as

I know, but all this talk has had a dizzying effect on my own usage

and I am now going to go to K-Mart's to pick up the pictures from

my son's birthday party.



Dennis

--



debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu        (\          217-333-2392

                \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron          \'\      __________

Department of English      / '|     ()_________)

Univ. of Illinois        \ '/     \ ~~~~~~~~ \

608 S. Wright St.         \       \ ~~~~~~  \

Urbana IL 61801          ==).      \__________\

                 (__)       ()__________)



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 15 May 1994 to 16 May 1994

************************************************





There are 11 messages totalling 208 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Spring chicken (7)

 2. Basket for chickens

 3. pop -- aka "dope" in these parts (2)

 4. Chickens



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 May 1994 03:13:30 -0700

From:  David Prager Branner <charmii[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Spring chicken



Does anyone know any real English words (modern or obsolete) meaning

"spring chicken" - i.e., a "young adult" chicken, no longer a baby chick.

This is the youngest chicken that can be eaten conveniently and it has

very succulent flesh, hence many cultures have special words for them. I

am especially interested in finding a word for a young hen that has not

yet brooded. Any suggestions?



                    David Prager Branner

                    Asian Languages and Literature

                    University of Washington, DO-21

                    Seattle, WA 98195



                    <charmii[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 May 1994 03:20:44 -0700

From:  David Prager Branner <charmii[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Basket for chickens



Does anyone know a real English name for a small basket or cage

specifically designed for holding or transporting fowl? In Chinese there

is a word jilong, which refers to chicken-cages of a great many sizes and

shapes, though they usually have in common that they are cylindrical. I

am trying to find a real English word for this kind of basket/cage.



Thanks.

                    David Prager Branner

                    Asian Languages and Literature

                    University of Washington, DO-21

                    Seattle, WA 98195



                    <charmii[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 May 1994 08:10:29 EDT

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: pop -- aka "dope" in these parts



    In San Antonio, Texas, in the late fifties, my father used the term

"dope" to refer to paint for model airplanes--and for illicit drugs. I

remember his refusing to drive down a certain country road near Kelly AFB

because people down there used "dope." A model airplane builder, I said

that I used "dope," and he had to broaden my understanding of the term. I

haven't heard "dope" used for paint since that time.



    Speaking of soda water, when I was child, we made fun of each other

for drinking Dr. Pepper because we thought that it contained prune juice--a

different kind of drug from the dope said to be in Coca Cola. When I hear

a commercial telling me that Dr. Pepper (the "friendly pepper-upper" at 10,

2, or 4) is "so misunderstood," I have a scatological vision that makes me

smile.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 May 1994 09:52:25 CDT

From:  Randy Roberts <robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Spring chicken



   Try the word pullet.



   Randy Roberts

   Univ. of Missouri-Columbia

   robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu





______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Spring chicken

Author: charmii[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU at INTERNET-EXT

Date:  5/17/94 3:13 AM





Does anyone know any real English words (modern or obsolete) meaning

"spring chicken" - i.e., a "young adult" chicken, no longer a baby chick.

This is the youngest chicken that can be eaten conveniently and it has

very succulent flesh, hence many cultures have special words for them. I

am especially interested in finding a word for a young hen that has not

yet brooded. Any suggestions?



                    David Prager Branner

                    Asian Languages and Literature

                    University of Washington, DO-21

                    Seattle, WA 98195



                    <charmii[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 May 1994 11:34:31 EDT

From:  Mark <GREEN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Spring chicken



Broiler (or fryer) are the terms used in the industry. I beleve pullet refers

only to a young hen.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 May 1994 15:02:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Spring chicken



Where I grew up (and tended chickens) [Louisville, KY area], a pullet was any

young chicken between a (baby) chick and a chicken. They were kept in a

pullet-house(the cleaning of which was one stinking job) before they were put

out in the chicken yard.

Dennis Preston

22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 May 1994 15:34:18 -0400

From:  Ellen Johnson <ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Spring chicken



I'll try to do some research on this semantic field and get back to you.

Should be pretty easy, since I lived for five years near Gainesville, GA,

the "Poultry Capital of the World" and home of Chicken City Motors. They

even have a local landmark called "the chicken monument", a bronze

rooster atop a 10-foot pedestal. I think the guys who drive the trucks

and load up the chickens (into wire cages, not a pretty sight driving

down the road but better than the manure trucks) are called

chicken-catchers. It doesn't smell too good

there in the summer and the (mostly Mexican and African-American, some

poor white) workers often suffer from repetitive motion damage to their

hands with little recompense. The chicken processing plants also

discharge some pretty foul waste into Lake Lanier and its tributaries.



More (and less) than you wanted to know, I'm sure.



Ellen Johnson

ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 May 1994 15:06:15 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: pop -- aka "dope" in these parts



Jim Tuttleton did an article in AS on this back in the 60s.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 May 1994 16:30:52 -0400

From:  "Bethany Dumas, UTK" <DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET>

Subject: Chickens



Those interested in problems of definition in the judicial process--or

just interested in chickens--might like to look at my 1991 article,

Humpty-Dumpty and the Law: Definitions in the Judicial Process (ASTM

Standardization News 19.12(Dec):52-55. In it I discuss problems suggested

by a 1960 court case, Frigaliment Importing Co. v. B.N.S. International

Sales Corp., 190 F. Supp. 16 (S.D. New York 1960). The question was, "What is

a chicken?" The context was a U.S. importer and a German exporter of

"chickens," which, according to U.S. plaintiff, meant a "young chicken," but

according to German defendant meant "any kind of chickens." My favorite

quotation (from an expert witness in the chicken industry): "Chicken is

everything except a goose, a duck, and a turkey." The case is a staple of

Contracts I courses--for very good reasons.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 May 1994 15:31:58 -0500

From:  Lana P Strickland <striclp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Spring chicken



On Tue, 17 May 1994, David Prager Branner wrote:



 I

> am especially interested in finding a word for a young hen that has not

> yet brooded.



Try "squab"



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 May 1994 17:08:36 -0700

From:  "Joseph B. Monda" <monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Spring chicken



pullet

joe monda



On Tue, 17 May 1994, Lana P Strickland wrote:



> On Tue, 17 May 1994, David Prager Branner wrote:

>

>  I

> > am especially interested in finding a word for a young hen that has not

> > yet brooded.

>

> Try "squab"

>



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 16 May 1994 to 17 May 1994

************************************************





There are 10 messages totalling 145 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Spring chicken (2)

 2. peckerwood and dope (2)

 3. signoff

 4. pop -- aka "dope" in these parts (2)

 5. Uncl: Question (3)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 May 1994 20:53:40 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Spring chicken



I half remember that we used to use the term 'poult' for chickens between

the chick and fryer stage of growth. I may be getting interference from

something other than natural memory, if such exists.

                          DMLance, U of MO



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 May 1994 21:15:01 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET>

Subject: Re: peckerwood and dope



A man who grew up in Westminster SC (he says 'Westminister') is doing some

yard work for me. I asked him about 'peckerwood'. His initial response

was that it just meant 'stupid' because"a peckerwood beats his head against

a tree all the time." The next day he commented that it was also a bit

of an insult. So the "reversed form" isn't just for references to people.

He also said his family used the term 'dope' for soft drinks. He was

born in 1931, and is white. Westminster is west-northwest of Greenville,

near the Georgia border, northwest of Clemson.

Wayne Glowka remembered dope as the glue used in building model airplanes.

I think it may have been marketed with that term. If you sniffed it "it

would do bad things to your brain."       DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 17 May 1994 23:48:24 -0500

From:  Todd N Nims <nimstod[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject: Re: peckerwood and dope



My roommate just walked into the room and called me a peckerwood. He

didnt know where or when he learned it but he says he has known it all

his conscious life. He is only 23 and has served in the military. he

was raised in different places but most were in the state of Alabama

(mostly rural areas).



Todd N. Nims

Auburn University



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 May 1994 03:08:39 EDT

From:  KDANN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM

Subject: Re: signoff



Can someone please drop me a note private mail to advise me how to signoff

from the ADS list? Thanks,

kdann[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 May 1994 00:48:32 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike <RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET>

Subject: Re: pop -- aka "dope" in these parts



I recall when I was in high school, a classmate telling me quite seriously

that Dr. Pepper contained prune juice, and that his uncle, who was a doctor,

prescribed it as a medication. It is one of my favorite drinks (being a

Texan), but it has never had any of the supposed effects of prune juice on me.

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 May 1994 07:33:15 EDT

From:  "Lyle D. Feisel" <FEISEL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BINGTJW.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Spring chicken



A young hen that has not yet brooded is a pullet. A young rooster is

a cockerel.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 May 1994 09:10:00 -0700

From:  Judith Rascoe <boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US>

Subject: Re: pop -- aka "dope" in these parts



I grew up on the west coast, mostly in Idaho. Dr. Pepper was an "exotic"

soft drink to me, but one much favored by my Dad, who had grown up in

Oklahoma. But he left Oklahoma in about 1925! Does it go back that far?

And yes, he assured me that its principal flavoring was prune juice.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 May 1994 12:44:25 -0400

From:  Rondalyn Reynolds <RREYNOL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TULSAJC.BITNET>

Subject: Uncl: Question



Date: 18 May 94 11:36:59 UTC

From: <RREYNOL AT TULSAJC>

To:  <ADS-L  AT UGA>

Subject: Uncl: Question



From:





Does anyone out there know where "on the fritz" originated?

Curious to find out. Thanks.



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 May 1994 17:26:28 EDT

From:  BERGDAHL%A1.OUVAX.mrgate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU

Subject: Re: Uncl: Question



From:  NAME: David Bergdahl

    FUNC: English

    TEL: (614) 593-2783          <BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]A1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX>

To:   NAME: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" <MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX>



Carver in his book AMERICAN REGIONAL DIALECTS derived from DARE data collected

1965-70 says it's an English expression:



"This recent phrase (1903) may have come to America as a show business term"

(72). It's an Eastern Upper North expression (Upper North layer) see his map 3.7



                        DAVID

David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH    BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 May 1994 16:36:20 -0700

From:  Roger Vanderveen <rvander[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ICHIPS.INTEL.COM>

Subject: Re: Uncl: Question



  From:  NAME: David Bergdahl



  Carver in his book AMERICAN REGIONAL DIALECTS derived from DARE data collected

  1965-70 says it's an English expression:



  "This recent phrase (1903) may have come to America as a show business term"

  (72). It's an Eastern Upper North expression (Upper North layer) see his map 3.7





Sorry, but what is it that's an English expression? Please give the antecedent

somehow, whether in your subject line or in the message.



I suppose I'll have to wait for the original query to arrive now.



Roger



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 17 May 1994 to 18 May 1994

************************************************





There are 11 messages totalling 312 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Uncl: Question (4)

 2. Walgreen's sodawater (2)

 3. Uncl: Re: Uncl: Question

 4. how-to's

 5. mooning

 6. Spring chicken (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 18 May 1994 23:26:48 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Uncl: Question



DARE says 'on the fritz' is of unknown origin, and that it is chiefly

Northern. There's a map on p. 579, Vol 2.

                     DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 May 1994 02:20:30 -0400

From:  Robert Kelly <kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Uncl: Question



guesswork:

fritz = German

jerry = German



jerry-built [presumably from jury-rigged, jury-built] is understood as

German made, hence (in an anti-German time) inferior.



but why the "on the..." ?



is it euphemy for a naughty rhyme word?

People used to say "it shits" as they now say "it sucks"



from rhyme word ----> place where one does that, hence the "on"



something on the fritz = something "indisposed"



 I wouldn't bother with this guessing except the DARE has nothing.



Good guessing!

r



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 May 1994 07:54:31 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Uncl: Question



Hate to douse such an interesting line of speculation, but I'm not convinced

there's any connection between 'jury-rigged' and 'jerry-built', let alone

between either of these and slurs on Germans, much less a bridge between such

a connection and 'on the fritz'. The OED and Farmer & Henley take

'jerry-builder' (whence 'jerry-built') back to the mid-19th; the OED's

earliest citation is 1869, while Farmer & Henley swear that the use of the

term (='run up in the worst materials) stems from 1830's Liverpool.

'Jury-rigged', on the other hand, comes from the jury-mast or temporary mast

rigged up on a ship; the origin of 'jury' in this sense is also unknown

(although the OED finds it necessary to dismiss the suggestion that it's

related to 'injury-mast'). No citations of jury-built, or jerry-rigged, are

given. The OED assumes 'probability' for a derivation of 'jerry-build(er)',

'jerry-built' with some guy named Jerry, they're just not sure which one. As

for 'on the fritz', the OED isn't much help, another 'origin unknown', but

this one (unlike the Liverpudlian 'jerry-built') is 'chiefly U.S.'. I was

surprised to see illustrations of the turn '(put) the fritz on', meaning

something like 'put the kibosh on'; that was a new one on me. Has anyone

heard that?



Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 May 1994 09:00:39 CDT

From:  "Krahn, Al" <AKRA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU>

Subject: Walgreen's sodawater



 The official name is Walgreen, without the -'s. However, I

confess to adding the -'s whenever I talk about it.



On the other hand, I never add the -'s to Kmart, Walmart, Target,

or some others. But I do say Penney's, when I know that is not a

part of the name at all.



We do also have some stores with -'s built in: Dretzka's,

Goldmann's, Kohl's, Lena's, Marshall Field's; and some with an

-s but no apostrophe, Younkers, Marshalls.



_________________________



Growing up in Milwaukee in the 30s and 40s, we drank "sodawater"

that we purchased from the local sodawater company. We had many

in the city, and they often had the word "sodawater" in the name

of the company. We would buy it by the case of 24, with

returnable bottles, of course. We were always within easy driving

distance of one or two of these companies. One offered several

dozen different flavors, some of which imitated well-known brands

near the end of the company's existence. It died a few years ago.

Its cases of bottles are collectors' items around the city now:

American Bottling Company or American Sodawater Company, I can't

recall which. We have only one such local sodawater company left

in the area producing generic sodawater in a variety of flavors.



The word "pop" seemed to migrate into the area in the 50s, and

at first we were confused by people who used it and could

recognize them as people who didn't grow up here. Most of us used

the term to refer to our male parent, also sometimes "Pops" with

an -s.



When soda fountains died a slow death here, we all lost one of

our other favorite beverages, "phosphates," which were nothing

more than sodawater made on the spot from a flavoring and some

carbonated water from the soda fountain. Chocolate-cherry was a

personal favorite. They would mix any combination of flavors you

wanted, usually.



There was also a soda fountain downtown that served some exotic

drinks that us street urchins did not understand, something

called "frappes." Obviously, they were something consumed by

a different class of people than we were. I don't think I ever

had one.



Ice cream sodas are hard to come by these days, also.

You might be able to find a Black Cow at an A & W though.

I'm not sure. Those are disappearing too.



AKRA in Beerville.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 May 1994 09:08:56 UTC

From:  RREYNOL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TULSAJC.TULSA.CC.OK.US

Subject: Uncl: Re: Uncl: Question



From: rreynol

I'm sorry, I'm kinda new at this. What is DARE



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 May 1994 10:10:28 -0400

From:  Tom <STEPHENS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ZODIAC.BITNET>

Subject: how-to's



Could you please send me the how-to's of this list? I have tried to

set the digest and the list tells me I am not subscribed.



Thanx.



Tom Stephens



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 May 1994 09:54:48 CDT

From:  Randy Roberts <robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: Uncl: Question



   Most of the materials Peter Tamony collected for fritz, etc., suggest

   a relationship to the Germans during WWI. Note the WWI song "Keep

   Your Head Down Allemand" which is subtitled "Fritzi Boy." The

   earliest cite I found, however, comes from the cartoonist TAD (Thomas

   Aloysius Dorgan) on 15 September 1916, San Francisco Call and Post:

   "What was the mistake?" "Oh, I just told the judge that his joint

   would go on the fritz if I ever left." Another cartoon by TAD of 25

   November 1920, same newspaper, read: "As Shakespeare said, 'Prices

   like the Ritz, service on the Fritz.'"

    Other examples are Fritz defined as one of the many names applied by

   British troops to the Germans who oppose them. "Recruit's Primer of

   Trench Idiom" in Literary Digest, 27 October 1917, pp. 64-65. On the

   fritz, meaning in bad condition, from George Milburn's The Hobo's

   Hornbook, New York, 1930, p. 284. To put the fritz on, meaning to

   jinx, is used in Collier's for 29 August 1931, p. 26. David Maurer in

   American Speech of February 1935 noted the term fritzer, meaning

   something which is not genuine or will not pay.

    Nothing definitive, but hopefully helpful.



   Randy Roberts

   University of Missouri-Columbia

   robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu



______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: Uncl: Question

Author: RREYNOL%TULSAJC.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu at INTERNET-EXT

Date:  5/18/94 12:44 PM





Date: 18 May 94 11:36:59 UTC

From: <RREYNOL AT TULSAJC>

To:  <ADS-L  AT UGA>

Subject: Uncl: Question



From:





Does anyone out there know where "on the fritz" originated?

Curious to find out. Thanks.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 May 1994 10:28:30 CDT

From:  Randy Roberts <robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: Re: mooning



   I haven't seen any replies to this query. Apologies if others have

   answered with earlier cites or if the printed sources are more

   helpful.

    The earliest use I found is the 27 August 1963 issue of Look, page

   18. ". . . a game called mooning. Three or four boys will crouch

   down in a car, lower their trousers and, at a signal, push their bare

   bottoms out of every available window. This pastime originated about

   two years ago in southern California and has crossed the country: it

   has now turned up in Florida." See also March 1965 issue of Holiday,

   page 44. From the January 1966 issue of Esquire, page 60, comes ". .

   . there are even some girls who enjoy throwing a moon now and then,

   just for the hell of it or maybe to strike a blow for academic freedom

   . . ."

    I found all of the info above in our collection of Scott, Foresman

   and Company files. The cites were collected by Clarence Barnhart and

   Ethel Strainchamps.



   Randy Roberts

   Univ. of Missouri-Columbia

   robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu





______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________

Subject: mooning

Author: kakelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU at INTERNET-EXT

Date:  5/13/94 11:41 PM





colleagues--can anyone provide info on the earliest attested use of the

term "mooning"--the defiant showing of buttocks, usually at figures of

authority, by adolescent types? Thanks, Kathleen Kelly



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 May 1994 11:50:15 CDT

From:  Barbara Need <barbara[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAPIR.UCHICAGO.EDU>

Subject: Re: Walgreen's sodawater



The ad in today's Chicago Tribune read Walgreens.



Barbara Need

University of Chicago--Linguistics



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 May 1994 14:37:31 -0700

From:  David Prager Branner <charmii[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Spring chicken



    Many people have suggested "pullet" for 'young "virgin" hen',

which is not exactly the word I had in mind. A hen can be a pullet even

after she begins laying; I am looking for a word meaning a hen that has

not yet begun brooding.

    There is a Chinese word for this that is very important in

dialectology, but I have never found a way to express it in English except

with a long explanation. Chinese value this kind of bird because it is

extremely tasty - actually, I have never eaten this kind of meat in the

United States, only in China. My informants there say that it is not the

laying of eggs but brooding that causes the taste of the meat to change.

Since "spring chickens" are famous in the West for their fine taste (which

I have never sampled, to my sorrow), it seemed to me that this might be a

closer word than "pullet". But a spring chicken can be male, too, can't

it?



    How about a word for a "virgin" sow? Is there such a word in

English? It is faily common in the Hakka areas of Fwujiann.



                    David Prager Branner

                    Asian Languages and Literature

                    University of Washington, DO-21

                    Seattle, WA 98195



                    <charmii[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 May 1994 16:21:54 -0700

From:  "Joseph B. Monda" <monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Spring chicken



AS I recall my poultry days, a hen can lay eggs without their being

fertile. And I don't know whether a pullet will breed without having

been bred to a cock. It was my impression that a brooding hen is a

setting hen, or one that wished to be such. But this goes back to my

boyhood on the farm, and what did I know about life then.



I know nothing --fortunately-- about virgin sows, but I think there is a

word for an unbred female pig: "gilt."



On Thu, 19 May 1994, David Prager Branner wrote:



>     Many people have suggested "pullet" for 'young "virgin" hen',

> which is not exactly the word I had in mind. A hen can be a pullet even

> after she begins laying; I am looking for a word meaning a hen that has

> not yet begun brooding.

>     There is a Chinese word for this that is very important in

> dialectology, but I have never found a way to express it in English except

> with a long explanation. Chinese value this kind of bird because it is

> extremely tasty - actually, I have never eaten this kind of meat in the

> United States, only in China. My informants there say that it is not the

> laying of eggs but brooding that causes the taste of the meat to change.

> Since "spring chickens" are famous in the West for their fine taste (which

> I have never sampled, to my sorrow), it seemed to me that this might be a

> closer word than "pullet". But a spring chicken can be male, too, can't

> it?

>

>     How about a word for a "virgin" sow? Is there such a word in

> English? It is faily common in the Hakka areas of Fwujiann.

>

>                     David Prager Branner

>                     Asian Languages and Literature

>                     University of Washington, DO-21

>                     Seattle, WA 98195

>

>                     <charmii[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu>

>



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 18 May 1994 to 19 May 1994

************************************************





There are 7 messages totalling 130 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Spring chicken (2)

 2. Reminder

 3. Uncl: Question

 4. Soda fountain memories (3)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 19 May 1994 23:41:41 -0700

From:  Judith Rascoe <boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US>

Subject: Re: Spring chicken



There are metaphorical implications to "spring chicken" that seem close

to the idea of the virgin pullet. We say of a woman of a certain age:

"She's no spring chicken." I've never heard this said of a man. The

connotation is not strictly that of virginity, but it does connote

somebody young and nubile.



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 May 1994 07:31:15 CDT

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Reminder



If you extract something from an earlier posting in something you're sending

to ADS-L, be sure to edit out the header lines that give name and address of

the list (the old header lines). Otherwise, your mail will bounce. I've

got three pieces of bounced mail that I'll forward to the list next week.

I can't do it right now since I'm in New York, telnetting through a VM

system which eats all my Unix commands including editing commands.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 May 1994 10:00:56 -0700

From:  "Joseph B. Monda" <monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Spring chicken



I'm sure I've heard the term applied to a man, perhaps incorrectly, but

applied.

Joe Monda (no spring chicken myself)



On Thu, 19 May 1994, Judith Rascoe wrote:



> There are metaphorical implications to "spring chicken" that seem close

> to the idea of the virgin pullet. We say of a woman of a certain age:

> "She's no spring chicken." I've never heard this said of a man. The

> connotation is not strictly that of virginity, but it does connote

> somebody young and nubile.

>



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 May 1994 13:51:33 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: Uncl: Question



On Wed, 18 May 1994, Donald M. Lance wrote:



> DARE says 'on the fritz' is of unknown origin, and that it is chiefly

> Northern. There's a map on p. 579, Vol 2.

>                      DMLance

>

Yes. Carver--working, of course, from the same data-- tags it as northern.

Makes sense-- Germans tended to settle in the northern states.



Tim



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 May 1994 16:15:17 -0400

From:  Martha Howard <UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU>

Subject: Soda fountain memories



I have read with interest all the various and sundry comments on terms for

coke, pop, etc. and remembering my youth, probably farther behind me than

yours is for you, I wondered if any of you every had a tin roof, a Boston

cooler, a gingerale float, a black cow, a chocolate coke (in my college days

in Ann Arbor, we used to congregate at a place in the Arcade or at Drake's

for our daily "coke" fixes. And, coke dates where what you agreed to go on

when you weren't sure you really wanted to spend much time with the person

who had just asked you out. They were also cheaper,, cokes were a nickel.

When I was in the Navy, in training at communications school at Mt. Holyoke

College, I learned of two more soda fountain delights. Mt. Holyoke Angels

were made of angel food cake, vanilla ice cream, and butterscotch syrup.

Vassar Devil consisted of chocolate cake, chocolate syrup, and chocolate

syrup.  It was then that I learned also that the NE term for what I had

always called coke, gingerale, or pop was "tonic" One day, four of us--

all mid-westerners, went on weekend leave to Boston and really living it

up, we went into a Walgreens and ordered chocolate milkshakes. The soda

jerk took some milk, put some chocolate syrup in it, put it in the container,

and on the mixer, mixing it thoroughly before pouring it into glasses which

he then placed before us. Astounded, one of us said, "What happened to the

 ice cream?" In a disgusted voice, he replied, "If youse had wanted a

frappe, why didn't you say so?" In Boston, obvious, a milk shake was just

that--shook milk. I hadn't thought of these lovely things for a long time, until

you all started your scholarly inquiries into these matters. I have long since

graduatedto scotch ( or when feeling flush, Glenlivet or Glenmorangie). I

suppose I should be glad it isn't metamucil. Martha Howard, West Virginia

University, Professsor Emerita (loveliest term in academia!)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 May 1994 17:26:45 CDT

From:  Mike Picone <MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Soda fountain memories



If my memory serves me well, growing up in Chicagoland in the 50-60's,

we had black cows, coke floats, and green rivers, whose respective

ingredients were vanilla ice cream floating in root beer, coke, and

7-Up. Now the interesting thing about coke floats is that is provides

some counter evidence to the claim that coke should be legally protected

as a trade-mark name for Coca Cola. For any type of cola (including

Royal Crown, which we has a lot of in Chgo) could serve as a base for a

coke float, and no one ever would have been caught dead saying "cola

float." (So what would you say to that, Bethany, if you're tuned in?)



Mike Picone

University of Alabama



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 20 May 1994 17:57:50 CDT

From:  Mike Picone <MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Soda fountain memories



I'm tempted to yell "Hold the presses" on my last message. The more I

think about it, the less sure I am as to whether a black cow had

root beer or coke in it. Because I know I have also heard "root beer float."

But "coke float" is definitely also possible. I tried calling my wife on

this, but she was of no help. Being an Oregonian, she thinks a black cow

is a Sugar Daddy covered with chocolate. Maybe I'll call my folks in

Chgo...



Mike Picone



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 19 May 1994 to 20 May 1994

************************************************





There are 2 messages totalling 33 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. how-to's

 2. Black cow



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 May 1994 05:06:45 CDT

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: how-to's



Oops. I used the reply command to Tom Stephens's query about how to set

digest and was going to use the ~h command to change the 'to' line to send

the reply just to him instead of to the list. Then I remembered that the

VM system I'm telnetting through to get back to my Unix system isn't going

to let me do that and also won't let me abort a note after starting it.

I'll rationalize my forgetting that by thinking that maybe somebody else

will someday need this kind of information.



Tom: The reason LISTSERV told you you're not a subscriber is that you

presumably sent the command from the same address you sent that message

to the list from -- which is not the address you're subscribed from. (You

can send mail to the list from any address since ADS-L is set as "send=

public".) You sent it from [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]zodiac.bitnet -- you're subscribed from [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]zodiac.

rutgers.edu. Since Rutgers has not registered zodiac in the bitnet-internet

equivalency tables, there's no way for LISTSERV to know you're the same

person.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 21 May 1994 08:40:28 -0400

From:  Martha Howard <UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU>

Subject: Black cow



Mike, in all my extensive (!) experience at soda fountains, a black cow

was always made with root beer. A coke float I never had. Martha Howard



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 20 May 1994 to 21 May 1994

************************************************





There are 2 messages totalling 59 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. pop/soda + queries (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 May 1994 22:24:37 CST

From:  Luanne von Schneidemesser <lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>

Subject: pop/soda + queries



   John McGalliard used to tell the story of coming up north, I

believe to Chicago, fresh from North Carolina after graduating

there in the 1920's and asking in the drugstore for a dope. He

soon -- very soon -- learned that dope was a regional term.

   A very obscure reference to the question of

soda/pop/tonic/dope is by David Vander Meulen in the Calvin

Spark, 1983, vol. 29, no. 4, pp. 12-14 (= Calvin College Alumni

magazine) in a short article on DARE and Calvin's contributions

to it. The maps probably won't xerox, since the dots are red.

To summarize briefly, DARE found: pop is the main term in the

Inland North, North Central, Upper Midwest, and West (DARE's

definitions), although it is scattered throughout the US; soda is

used most heavily in the Northeast; tonic is reported from

Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Maine; and dope is given from

South Carolina especially, with scattered reports from nearby

states (see DARE, vol. 2).

   A few questions for all of you, to help us clarify a few

concepts or terms -- can you help us?

   What is the meaning of "meat fisherman"?

   Also (and I think I queried this before but got no

responses), who or what do you consider to be responsible for the

leaves turning red or yellow in the fall? As a kid, long before

the scientific explanation was made clear to me, I had a name for

or notion of this. Am I the only one?

   And what do you call it when a bunch of kids pile on top of

each other?

   Thanks.

              Luanne



!



Luanne von Schneidemesser, 608-263-2748

DARE, 6129 Helen C. White Hall, 600 North Park, Madison, WI 53706



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 May 1994 23:32:04 EDT

From:  Mark Devlin <mdevlin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACS.BU.EDU>

Subject: Re: pop/soda + queries



Luanne v. Schneidemesser asked:



>   And what do you call it when a bunch of kids pile on top of

> each other?



I am afraid that my childhood chums and I (Long Island, NY, early 1970s)

were rather prosaic. We called it a "pile-on".



One hopes other little Americans of the era were more imaginative.



M. Devlin

Boston



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 21 May 1994 to 23 May 1994

************************************************





There are 27 messages totalling 637 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. pop/soda + queries (9)

 2. Black cows and ginger beer

 3. King of the Hill (2)

 4. queries (4)

 5. King of the hill (2)

 6. Alaska versions of pile and soda (3)

 7. dog pile

 8. Ring o leevio?

 9. versions of pile and soda

 10. Anty, anty I over?

 11. "pile-ons" (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 01:24:03 -0400

From:  Robert Kelly <kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: pop/soda + queries



kids pile on top of each other = king of the hill



re soda/pop/tonic etc. The word I had to learn when we spent summers

in rustic NE Pennsylvania was "phosphate" -- meaning any fountain soda.

I would order a cherry phosphate or a lime phosphate. The word soda

(my dialect) was not known; pop was understood, and offered to clarify

'phosphate' to strangers.



rk



------------------------------



Date:  Mon, 23 May 1994 22:58:26 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike <RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET>

Subject: Black cows and ginger beer



The following was sent to me by my colleague Dick Demers in response to Mike

Picone's note on Black Cows (which he says are best make in August with Dad's

Old Fashioned Rootbeer). I did not know what they were, myself, but he did

take me down a reverie with a rediscovery of Green River last summer (I

encountered them in Illinois, not Texas) in Portland. Ginger beer, anyone?





Mike--I am also an Oregonian--and Black Cows are Root Beer floats.

By the way, I went into Walgreen (I guess we should not write Walgreen's

anymore) and asked for ginger beer. The young man said that I could

not buy beer before 10:00. I said that ginger beer is no more beer

than ginger ale is ale. He looked at me as if I the whole thing was

my fault. Dick



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 08:23:08 EDT

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: pop/soda + queries



>   Also (and I think I queried this before but got no

>responses), who or what do you consider to be responsible for the

>leaves turning red or yellow in the fall?



    --My mother (who was from Weimar, Texas) told me that Jack Frost

was responsible for the change. She also told me that the Devil was

whipping his wife when it rained with the sun shining, and she never

explained why old men in cars would want to give me candy for free.



>   And what do you call it when a bunch of kids pile on top of

>each other?



    --Dangerous. We used to do this when I was a child in San Antonio,

Texas, but I don't remember any specific term for this horrible game except

for maybe "pile on." There was nothing worse than being on the bottom

breathing dust and fearing suffocation. I struggled mightily to escape

this game whenever someone hollered "PILE ON!"







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 08:26:52 EDT

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: King of the Hill



Robert Kelly wrote:



>kids pile on top of each other = king of the hill



--In my neighborood in San Antonio in the late fifties and early sixites,

"king of the hill" actually required some sort of mound. The king was able

to push everybody off but himself. As a medieval accounts of Fortune's

wheel demonstrate, no one can be king of the hill for long.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 08:50:36 CDT

From:  Randy Roberts <robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU>

Subject: queries



Text item: Text_1



   In eastern Kansas, where I was a kid, we always called the game of

   piling on "dog pile".  King of the hill for us involved an actual

   hill or some lofty perch. The king of the hill was the person who was

   able to claim the highest point and prevent others from reaching the

   top by physical combat.



   I always suspected kids in Kansas during the 60's were somehow

   different.



   Randy Roberts

   Univ. of Missouri-Columbia

   robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 09:31:21 -0500

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: pop/soda + queries



Have you collected Italian and French soda, now the darlings of the

espresso bars? Italian is a flavored syrup added to seltzer, while French

adds milk to the mix as well (like an egg cream, only with more flavor

options). When I was a kid back in the 1950s in Queens we had a case of

Good Health Seltzer delivered to our back door every week. I understand

Good Health gave up the ghost ten or 15 years ago. I have no idea what the

original composition of Dr. Pepper was, but does anyone know the story

behind Dr. Brown's? I knew it as a child as Dr. Brown's Cel-Ray tonic--it

was (and still is) flavored with celery. Now there are other flavors

available as well, including (gasp) Diet Dr. Brown's. When I was a kid I'd

get taken for a treat to the Deli down the block and have a Dr. Brown's and

a couple of specials (large-sized kosher hot dogs).



Dennis B.

-------

Dennis Baron                       debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English                  217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 09:31:41 -0500

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: queries



King of the Hill in NYC in the 1950s referred to defending a small mound in

a vacant lot, not to a pile on. We didn't have enough kids in my

neighborhood to pile on, so the term is missing from my inventory. In

Illinois they don't play king of the hill because most of the state is

flat--and most of east central Illinois is below sea level. Or at least it

seems that way. The kids here play king of the damp basement.



Dennis

---

Dennis Baron                       debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English                  217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 09:39:50 -0600

From:  Larry Davis <DAVIS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WSUHUB.UC.TWSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: queries



I just conducted an excruciatingly scientific survey of the folks here in the

Dept. of English office, and they remember DOG PILE just like Randy does. So

much for western and south-central Kansas.



Larry Davis



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 10:34:49 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: King of the Hill



My recollection from New York City in the early and mid fifties jibes with

Wayne's (and with Randy Roberts's); K of the H involved a mound and a

horseless joust/push-off, not a simple pile-on.

--Larry

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

Robert Kelly wrote:



>kids pile on top of each other = king of the hill



--In my neighborood in San Antonio in the late fifties and early sixites,

"king of the hill" actually required some sort of mound. The king was able

to push everybody off but himself. As a medieval accounts of Fortune's

wheel demonstrate, no one can be king of the hill for long.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 10:44:21 -0400

From:  Martha Howard <UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU>

Subject: queries



Luanne, I agree with Wayne in Texas that Jack Frost colorsthe leave in fall--

at least, he did in Michigan. And like Randy, I remember King of the hill

requiring something like a hill, from the summit of which one brave soul

held off all invaders. (Missouri, Chicago, and Michigan.)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 09:39:06 CDT

From:  Mike Picone <MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET>

Subject: King of the hill



Dennis Baron wrote:



>In Illinois they don't play king of the hill because most of the state is

>flat--and most of east central Illinois is below sea level. Or at least it

>seems that way. The kids here play king of the damp basement.



As a native son of Illinois, I am honor-bound to correct the record on this

one. Natural hills are a seasonal phenomenon in Illinois. They are scarce in

the summer, but they arrive in the winter in the form of hardened drifts and

snow levis lining the streets after the plow has been through. I remember

playing king of the hill (no, it was not king of the snow drift) on such

like on many occasions. In another instance of `hill improvisation', we

would seek out new construction sites in the neighborhood. When the cats

were done dozing out foundations, they invariably left a large hill until

the house or building was done and attention was turned to landscaping.



Mike Picone

University of Illinois



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 10:17:28 EST

From:  Tracey McHenry <mchenry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU>

Subject: Alaska versions of pile and soda



If anyone cares, growing up in Anchorage AK in the early 70's I would

play King of the Hill (or Queen actually) on big piles of snow , which

would referred to as 'berms' although I don't know if this is the term others

use. Thes soda vs pop vs other terms discussion fascinates me because I

truly cannot remember what I said "naturally" in AK. I suspect that I said

pop, but after 3 years of college in Portland OR I was forced into using 'soda'

in order to escape ridicule from my many Hawaiian friends. Does anyone

have any info, first hand or otherwise, on the use of these terms in the

West and/or Northwest? It seems to me that anything goes, except tonic.

    Tracey McHenry

    Purdue University

    English Department



PS I have never heard anyone in AK or OR, for that matter, say brown cow

or anyhting else like that in reference to ice cream drinks. It was always

'float' or 'soda'.



*****************************************************************************

            Tracey McHenry

            mchenry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mace.cc.purdue.edu



    "You must do the thing you think you cannot do."

                  --Eleanor Roosevelt





------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 08:44:53 -0700

From:  Judith Rascoe <boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US>

Subject: Re: pop/soda + queries



To a westerner unfamiliar with Cel-Ray tonic, the first bottle tasted very

very much like Cream Soda. That's always mystified me.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 12:49:45 EDT

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: dog pile



>Text item: Text_1

>

>   In eastern Kansas, where I was a kid, we always called the game of

>   piling on "dog pile".

>

>   I always suspected kids in Kansas during the 60's were somehow

>   different.

>

>   Randy Roberts

>   Univ. of Missouri-Columbia

>   robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu



My neighbors were from Kansas, and I believe that I heard them say "dog

pile" for the game of crushing people on the bottom of a pile of bodies.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 12:04:03 -0500

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: pop/soda + queries



>To a westerner unfamiliar with Cel-Ray tonic, the first bottle tasted very

>very much like Cream Soda. That's always mystified me.



Arrant nonsense and sacrilege. That just shows the cultural wasteland the

west really is. What did Woody Allen say in "Annie Hall," about

California, "Who'd want to go to a place where the only cultural advantage

was you could make a right turn on a red light?"



Actually, I think you can do that in New York now too. But "Annie Hall"

was 20 years ago. Must be getting old.



Anyone familiar with "White soda," a term used in the Chicago area for a

disgusting brew I once bought by mistake when I was looking for club soda?



Dennis

------

Dennis Baron                       debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English                  217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 11:03:04 -0500

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: King of the hill



Mike Picone writes:



>As a native son of Illinois, I am honor-bound to correct the record on this

>one. Natural hills are a seasonal phenomenon in Illinois.



Of course I'll always be a tourist, though I've lived here 20 years. The

children on our cul-de-sac are too yuppified to play king of the hill.

Instead they are all into virtual reality and play Mighty Morphin' Power

Rangers. Why be King of the Hill when you can be Master of the Universe?



Hey Red Ranger, let's morph!



Dennis (whatever happened to Ring o leevio, or however you want to

transcribe it--a game apparently so deadly that it was forbidden in our

Queens schoolyards way back then).



----

Dennis Baron                       debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English                  217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 12:20:25 -0500

From:  Lana P Strickland <striclp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject: Re: pop/soda + queries



On Mon, 23 May 1994, Luanne von Schneidemesser wrote:



>   And what do you call it when a bunch of kids pile on top of

> each other?



Well, I absolutely hate to write this...but you asked and I feel I should

answer. This was a game the boys, no girls, played where I grew up--NE

Alabama, at the end of the Appalachias. It was called [blush] "nigger-pile."



Lana

striclp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.auburn.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 13:38:14 EDT

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Ring o leevio?



    Is Dennis Baron talking about "Red Rover"? We were forbidden to

play this game, first at school and then at home. Arms could be broken as

the chosen one ran across the yard and tried to crash through the linked

arms of the opponents.







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 13:30:01 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: pop/soda + queries



Yes, but perhaps the source of the confusion is that Dr. Brown has made Cream

Soda for many years, although not quite for as long as he's made Cel-Ray

tonic. As for Woody's apercu, I believe the default within New York CITY (or

perhaps just Manhattan?) is still that no right turns on red are permitted.

As for our other current thread, while Dennis is no doubt correct in general,

I believe that in some parts of the otherwise flat Midwest, King of the Hill is

played on piles of leaves as well as of snow.      --Larry

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

>To a westerner unfamiliar with Cel-Ray tonic, the first bottle tasted very

>very much like Cream Soda. That's always mystified me.



Arrant nonsense and sacrilege. That just shows the cultural wasteland the

west really is. What did Woody Allen say in "Annie Hall," about

California, "Who'd want to go to a place where the only cultural advantage

was you could make a right turn on a red light?"



Actually, I think you can do that in New York now too. But "Annie Hall"

was 20 years ago. Must be getting old.



Anyone familiar with "White soda," a term used in the Chicago area for a

disgusting brew I once bought by mistake when I was looking for club soda?



Dennis

------

Dennis Baron                       debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English                  217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 10:08:03 -0700

From:  "Joseph B. Monda" <monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU>

Subject: versions of pile and soda



I think we used to play "King of the Castle." "I'm the King of the

Castle and you're the dirty rascal!" That started it. We'd end up, not

in a Kansan dog-pile, but in a pig-pile.

Joe Monda



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 10:17:12 -0700

From:  "Joseph B. Monda" <monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU>

Subject: Anty, anty I over?



Did anyone ever play the game that I grew up calling "Anty Anty I/High Over"?

It was played by teams (or just two individuals) who threw a rubber ball

(or tennis ball) over the roof to the other side. If the other side

caight the ball on the fly, he/she could sneak around the house and throw

the ball at the other participant. If it hit the target, then the teams

switched sides of the house. The action began with the person in

possession of the ball calling "Anty Anty etc." and throwing the ball up

over the peak of the roof. Oh, and if the ball did not go over the peak, but

dribbled back down to the thrower, he'd Call "Pig Tail."



I grew up in Wenatchee, Washington. This game I played in the thirties.

Joe Monda



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 10:49:07 -0700

From:  "Joseph B. Monda" <monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU>

Subject: Re: pop/soda + queries



On Mon, 23 May 1994, Luanne von Schneidemesser wrote:



>   A few questions for all of you, to help us clarify a few

> concepts or terms -- can you help us?

>   What is the meaning of "meat fisherman"?



He --always male-- is someone who fishes out of a desire to catch a lot

of fish--to eat, sure, but also to brag about. He's frequently seen in

photographs grinning boozily behind a pile of dead fish. He is not

interested in the sport, but only in "sacking them up." He looks upon

flyfishermen who catch and release fish as some kind of deviant species.

He frequently wants to get out on the water early before all the greedy

people get there.



Among Flyfisherpersons (the aristocrats of the sport, by our own

admission) I believe they might consider a fishermean who uses bait a

"meat fisherman." they might also call him a "bait-slinger," a

pejorative term of course.



I have lived and fished in the Pacific Northwest for all of my adult

life. I'm now 65, and going fishing permanently on June 12.



>   Also (and I think I queried this before but got no

> responses), who or what do you consider to be responsible for the

> leaves turning red or yellow in the fall? As a kid, long before

> the scientific explanation was made clear to me, I had a name for

> or notion of this. Am I the only one?





No. Jack Frost did it in Eastern Washington in the thirties.



>   And what do you call it when a bunch of kids pile on top of

> each other?



A pig-pile.



Joe Monda





Joseph B. Monda   email: monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]seattleu.edu

           smail: English Department Seattle University

               Seattle WA 98122 (206) 296-5425



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 17:56:26 -0500

From:  Christina E Ogburn <ogburce[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject: "pile-ons"



I have spent most of my life in Alabama (the Central part) and I

have never heard the term

"nigger pile" before in my life. I am referring to Lana Strickland's

response to what different areas call a "pile on." I guess Alabama is

more diverse than people would think. It could also have to do with the

fact that we played with black and white children whereas I assume that

one would not use the term "nigger" when playing with black children.



Also, someone mentioned the game "Red Rover." Is this the same game

where someone says "Red Rover, red rover, I dare Suzie (or anyone) to

come over?" If so, this was one of my favorite games when I was a child

in Delaware.



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 16:08:47 -0700

From:  Allen Maberry <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>

Subject: Re: pop/soda + queries



In Portland, OR in the 1950's we refered to "pile-on" as "pig-pile" e.g.

in "Pig-pile on [insert name of victim here]"

Allen Maberry

University of Washington



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 18:27:46 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Alaska versions of pile and soda



For Tracey,



I am a native Oregonian (Portland-Salem). I have never heard 'soda' when

refering to 'pop'. (Soda is what one uses for baking. I always wondered why

and HOW someone could drink 'soda'). I also remember some people using

'coke' for 'pop'. You mentioned that you switched to 'soda' to escape

ridicule from your Hawaiian friends. Could it be that THEY use 'soda'?

A 'berm' to me is a grassy strech along side of a road or on the side of a

hill.

In the early '70's we used to 'pig-pile' on each other.

That reminds me of another game that we used to play. One kid would be in

control of a ball, while the others in the game would do just about

anything to wrench it from him. When someone else gained control, the mob

turned on him and dealt him the same punishment. It was basically a cross

between rugby, professioanl wrestling, and a bar room fight. Looking

back, I can't for the life of me figure out why I ever wanted that ball.

We called this game `smear the queer.' Does anyone else know it and what

did you call it.

CFJ



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 21:03:15 -0500

From:  Todd N Nims <nimstod[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject: Re: "pile-ons"



> response to what different areas call a "pile on." I guess Alabama is

> more diverse than people would think. It could also have to do with the





How long have you lived in Alabama to only just now notice that Alabama

is "more diverse than people would think." The county I was born and

raised in has as many different dialects as it has gas stations, as many

nationalities that you could possibly think of, and probably as many

names for a "pile-on" as there are ethnic groups. And this all occurs in

one county in a state of over 60 counties, so unless this is an isolated

case, which I seriously doubt, please in the furture dont slam a state

that, although far from perfect, is no worse than any other state in the

union.

Thanks,

Todd N. Nims



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 21:12:08 -0500

From:  Todd N Nims <nimstod[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Alaska versions of pile and soda



Same game, same name in SW Alabama and we played "smear the queer" w/

equal reckless abandon.....and thought cathing that ball was the thing to

do and then after catching it and therefore gaining the attention of

multitudes of kids screaming "Kill him before he gets away," wondering

why you ever thought it was a good idea to play this stupid game.....boy

that was the most fun.

Todd N. Nims



On Tue, 24 May 1994, Charles F Juengling wrote:



> For Tracey,

>

> I am a native Oregonian (Portland-Salem). I have never heard 'soda' when

> refering to 'pop'. (Soda is what one uses for baking. I always wondered why

> and HOW someone could drink 'soda'). I also remember some people using

> 'coke' for 'pop'. You mentioned that you switched to 'soda' to escape

> ridicule from your Hawaiian friends. Could it be that THEY use 'soda'?

> A 'berm' to me is a grassy strech along side of a road or on the side of a

> hill.

> In the early '70's we used to 'pig-pile' on each other.

> That reminds me of another game that we used to play. One kid would be in

> control of a ball, while the others in the game would do just about

> anything to wrench it from him. When someone else gained control, the mob

> turned on him and dealt him the same punishment. It was basically a cross

> between rugby, professioanl wrestling, and a bar room fight. Looking

> back, I can't for the life of me figure out why I ever wanted that ball.

> We called this game `smear the queer.' Does anyone else know it and what

> did you call it.

> CFJ

>



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 23 May 1994 to 24 May 1994

************************************************





There are 16 messages totalling 555 lines in this issue.



Topics collected thus far:



 1. Red Rover (4)

 2. Alabama query (3)

 3. Old Mail (topic: various)

 4. More Old Mail (re: "pop")

 5. Anty, anty I over? (2)

 6. More Old Mail ("would")

 7. More Old Mail ("mooning")

 8. More Old Mail (spring chickens and dead cats)

 9. "pile-ons"

 10. say-so



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 21:47:36 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike <RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET>

Subject: Red Rover



Wayne,

    We must have been tougher stuff in the Valley, or else civilization

had not gotten so far (especially progressive education, thank goodnes). We

were taught to play Red Rover as a recess game at school, I think in the

first grade.

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Tue, 24 May 1994 22:10:09 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike <RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET>

Subject: Alabama query



    The diversity of Alabama, which no dialectologist has ever doubted,

is being amply confirmed. This one is for Alabamans, and anyone else who

may be familiar with the term. A colleague of mine from northern Alabama

passed on the following query:

    From his mother's generation, in Walker County, "high assing" meant

"going out and making a spectacle of yourself" or just "going out on the town".

Is this expression still alive and well? Is it used elsewhere?

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 May 1994 06:38:22 CDT

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Old Mail (topic: various)



Although I'm still out of town, at least I'm on a Unix-to-Unix connection

now, thank goodness, and can therefore lead a fairly normally e-mail life.

Here's some bounced mail from week before last:



> Date:     Fri, 13 May 1994 23:11:50 -0400

> From: BITNET list server at UGA (1.7f) <LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

> Subject:   ADS-L: error report from UCLAMVS

>

> The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid

> 2174 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error

> notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field

> pointing to the list has been found in mail body.

>

> -------------------- Message in error (95 lines) -------------------------

> Date:  Fri, 13 May 94 20:10 PDT

> From:  benji wald              <IBENAWJ[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCLAMVS.BITNET>

> Subject: Re: Does Anybody Have Yesterday's Digest?

>

> Hey! What happened to the ANYMORE discussion. I was gonna give a big spiel

> on positive anymore, but only as compensation for changing the subject. Now

> I see that the list is so volatile that I can dispense with that discussion

> -- unless anybody wants to hear it -- and just change the subject.

>

> If I WDA KNOWN YOU WERE COMIN I'D A BAKED A CAKE

> IF I HADDA KNOWN ...

> IF I WD KNOW YOU WERE COMIN ...

> IF I WD KNOW SPANISH I CD GET A BETTER JOB

> IF I WD BE YOU I WDN'T DO THAT

>

> Do any of these strike anybody out there as peculiar? Which? Why? Where

> are YOU from?

>

> The main point, of course, is the "non-root" use of the WOULD in if clauses.

> This seems to be sweeping the country in the last generation from problematic

> origins. It is not part of my original New York City dialect, but I've even

> noticed it there recently. The only comment I've ever seen on it outside

> of my own is Trudgill & Hannah's assertion that it is "American". Trudgill's

> the expert on British dialects, but I suspect it came to the US from Britain

> even if it hasn't survived there. The "hadda", of course, is attested in

> Britain at least as far back as Caxton. Jespersen says it's a back formation

> from contracted 'd (< would) to "had", so ...   In the US my impression

> is that "hadda" is basically Southern, which, of course, includes Southern

> California, since I think the definition of "Southern" is any place where

> it's lower class to maintain the "which/witch" distinction.

>

> Although spread of the modal (or its equivalent) from the consequent to the

> conditional clause is a commonplace across languages, there seem to be

> subtleties to the use of "would" according to the distinction between

> active and stative verbs, hence the strangeness of

>    when I was six years old I WOULD (= USED TO) live across the street

>     from the school.

>  That's why I carefully chose the examples I gave above.

>  I first became aware of WD in if-clauses in studying the East LA community,

>  a bilingual English-Spanish community with English dominance. When I told

> a class I thought it was Spanish influence I lost authority, because the

> students told me "everybody" in LA talks like that. They were right. Like

> other things you don't notice till you notice, then I noticed it just

> about everywhere. However, there seem to be constraints along the lines

> I suggested above. These are what interest me most, but I'm also interested

> in the current geographical distribution of "hadda" and where, if anywhere,

> there is across-the-board insistence on the simple pasts in if-clauses of

> such conditionals, my native dialect -- but unfortunately for interpreting

> judgments, also the standard.

>  I've written about the problems involved and the subtleties in an article

> in Norbert Dittmar, ed. (1993) Modality and Second Language Acquisition,

> Berlin: De Gruyter (I forgot the exact name of the article, something about

> modality in East LA with notes on general American modal use in speech)

>

> where I concentrate on East LA and limitations to linguistic assimilation.

> But there's a lot more to be done on its use in other American English

> dialects, and that can affect to some extent the conclusions I reached

> even in that paper.

>

> I fear that if it is not attended to until the next generation

> it will have already taken over, it seems to be spreading that

> quickly, and they will be arguing about how it started and spread, and have

> a dim opinion of us for not noticing and documenting it. Benji Wald



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 May 1994 06:40:33 CDT

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: More Old Mail (re: "pop")



> Date:     Fri, 13 May 1994 23:23:43 -0400

> From: BITNET list server at UGA (1.7f) <LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

> Subject:   ADS-L: error report from UCLAMVS

>

> The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid

> 2601 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error

> notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field

> pointing to the list has been found in mail body.

>

> ------------------ Message in error (34 lines) -------------------------

> Date:  Fri, 13 May 94 20:22 PDT

> From:  benji wald              <IBENAWJ[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCLAMVS.BITNET>

> Subject: Re: Re: pop

>

> Literature on "pop". I can only think offhand of a national map of usage in

> the Cultural Atlas of North America, don't have the reference. For what

> it's worth, "soda" seems to be one of the few contributions of the New York

> City area to Los Angeles. As a kid, "pop" sounded "hickish" to me. I

> sometimes heard it in commercials, written by who knows who from the "Midwest"

> Soda, tonic, pop, seltzer etc are part of complex patterns of semantic

> shifts which have taken place (maybe still are) over large areas of the

> States. Somebody told me "coke" is generic in New Orleans. Iwas there, but

> I forgot what I found out. "Pop" is used in Northern England and Scotland,

> "soda" in Southern England and the former Empire. Benji

> --------------------------TEXT-OF-YOUR-MAIL--------------------------------

>

> > From:     Todd N Nims <nimstod[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

> > Subject:   Re: pop

> >

> > In Southwest Alabama, coke is used almost exclusivly by people raised in

> > the area. If coke isnt used then drink (w/o soft) would be used in its

> > place. However, since the area has become more and more a "haven" for

> > snowbirds, people who have moved in from nearby cities, and tourists,

> > I have heard most all of the words presented on this list at one time or

> > another. Also, when you want to specify a specific brand you would just

> > give its brand name (of course).

> > Todd N. Nims



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 May 1994 07:36:21 -0400

From:  Ellen Johnson <ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Anty, anty I over?



My mother, age 58, played that game when she was growing up in West

Georgia. They called it "Hand Me Over" and had the same rules about

running around the house to tag the other person IF you caught the ball.

(But since the other team couldn't see around the house, it was really

easy to cheat, she said.) She doesn't remember anything about "pig

tail" if it didn't make it over the roof. My father grew up in Atlanta and

never played it. We only played when my mother suggested it; I don't

remember my other friends knowing it.



I also don't remember any games like the "pile-on" y'all have been

describing. Can't say that I regret not playing it.



Ellen JOhnson

ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]atlas.uga.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 May 1994 06:53:49 CDT

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: More Old Mail ("would")



Have I already forwarded this one? I'm getting confused. If this is

a duplicate, please accept my apologies. I'll be home soon, and life will

return to normal.



> Date:     Mon, 16 May 1994 20:22:52 -0400

> From: BITNET list server at UGA (1.7f) <LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

> Subject:   ADS-L: error report from UCLAMVS

>

> The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid

> 8980 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error

> notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field

> pointing to the list has been found in mail body.

>

> ----------------- Message in error (136 lines) -------------------------

> Date:  Mon, 16 May 94 17:20 PDT

> From:  benji wald              <IBENAWJ[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCLAMVS.BITNET>

> Subject: Re: Re: The text and beyond Cynthia.

>

> Hey! What happened to the ANYMORE discussion. I was gonna give a big spiel

> on positive anymore, but only as compensation for changing the

> subject. Now I see that the list is so volatile that I can

> dispense with that discussion-- unless anybody wants to hear it

> -- and just change the subject.

>

> If I WDA KNOWN YOU WERE COMIN I'D A BAKED A CAKE

> IF I HADDA KNOWN ...IF I WD KNOW YOU WERE COMIN ..

> IF I WD KNOW SPANISH I CD GET A BETTER JOB

> IF I WD BE YOU I WDN'T DO THAT

>

> Do any of these strike anybody out there as peculiar? Which?

> Why? Where are YOU from?

>

> The main point, of course, is the "non-root" use of the WOULD in if clauses.

> This seems to be sweeping the country in the last generation

> from problematic origins. It is not part of my original New

> York City dialect, but I've even noticed it there recently. The only

> mention I've seen of it, outside of my own work, is Trudgill &

> Hannah's assertion that it is "American". Trudgill's the expert on

> British dialects, but I suspect it came to the US from Britain even if

> it hasn't survived there. The "hadda", of course, is attested in

> Britain at least as far back as Caxton. Jespersen says it's a back formation

> from contracted 'd (< would) to "had", so ...   In the US my impression is

> t hat "hadda" is basically Southern, which, of course, includes

> Southern Californ ia, since I think the definition of "Southern"

> is any place where it's lower class to maintain the "which/witch" distinction.

>

> Although spread of the modal (or its equivalent) from the consequent to the

> con ditional clause is a commonplace across languages, there

> seem to be subtleties to the use of "would" according to the

> distinction between active and stative verbs, hence the strangeness of

>    when I was six years old I WOULD (= USED TO) live across the street

>    from the school.

> That's why I carefully chose the examples I gave above. I first became aware

> of WD in if-clauses in studying the East LA community, a bilingual

> English-Spanish community with English dominance. When I told

> a class I thought it was Spanish influence I lost authority,

> because the students told me "everybody" in LA talks like that.

> They were right. Like other things you don't notice till you

> notice, then I noticed it just about everywhere. However, there seem to be

> constraints along the lines I suggested above. These are what interest me

> most, but I'm also interested in the current geographical

> distribution of "hadda" and where, if anywhere, there is

> across-the-board insistence on the simple pasts in if-clauses of such

> conditionals, my native dialect -- but unfortunately for interpreting

> judgments, also the standard. I've written about the problems

> involved and the subtleties in an article in

>

> Norbert Dittmar, ed. (1993) Modality and Langage Acquisition.

>    Berlin: De Gruyter

> (I forgot the exact name of the article, something about

> modality in East LA with notes on general American modal use in speech)

>

> where I concentrate on East LA and limitations to linguistic assimilation.

> But there's a lot more to be done on its use in other American

> English dialects, and that can affect to some extent the

> conclusions I reached even in that paper. I fear that if it is not attended

> to until the next generation it will have already taken over,

> it seems to be spreading that quickly, and scholars will be arguing

> about how it started and spread, and have a dim opinion of us

> for not noticing and documenting it. Benji Wald

> -------

> Dennis, I sent this out to the ADSL line in general a few days ago,

> attached to something Natalie Maynor had sent in, but Natalie told me that

> I didn't delete or add something to the address (which I still don't

> understand how (it) works) and it did not get out to the list. Then she

> told me she's in NY on an unfamiliar computer and doesn't know how to

> forward it to the list. I'm telling you in case it happens this time too,

> since now it's attached to one of your messages.



[Aha. This explains why I was confused about whether I had already

forwarded it. The problem, btw, wasn't that I was at an unfamiliar

computer. The problem was that I was telnetting through the VM system

at CUNY to the Unix system at Mississippi State. VM (or CMS) is

incompatible with the rest of the world (which is why IBM mainframes

are becoming dinosaurs). The mail bounced because you didn't delete

the header lines that referred to ADS-L. LISTSERV won't let mail go

through with those lines in the body of it. It's a loop-preventive.

Natalie]



>

> By the way, readers should realise that it's not just a change taking

> place in "if" clauses but in all "subjunctivoid" clauses, e.g., I wish

> you WDV/had(da) told me, I wish I WD know/knew the answer (somebody's

> gotta think this one's wierd) etc. Benji again.

>

> --------------------TEXT-OF-YOUR-MAIL--------------------------------

>

> > Date:     Sun, 15 May 1994 07:12:00 EDT

> > From:     "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU>

> > Subject:   Re: The text and beyond Cynthia.

> >

> > Tom,

> > I assume you know Dick Bailey and Dolores Burton's English Stylistics: A

> > Bibliography (MIT Press, 1968), much of which is devoted to 'linguistic

> > stylistics.' There is, however, a less well-known supplement: James Bennett,

> > Bibliography of Stylistics and Related Criticism, 1967-83 (MLA, 1986) which

> > you ought to look through. Lots of 'non-linguistic' stuff in both, but both

> > are very useful for what you want to do.

> > Dennis Preston

> > 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 May 1994 06:55:47 CDT

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: More Old Mail ("mooning")



> Date:     Thu, 19 May 1994 19:48:08 -0400

> From: BITNET list server at UGA (1.7f) <LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

> Subject:   ADS-L: error report from UCLAMVS

>

> The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid

> 4937 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error

> notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field

> pointing to the list has been found in mail body.

>

> -------------------- Message in error (63 lines) -------------------------

> Date:  Thu, 19 May 94 16:46 PDT

> From:  benji wald              <IBENAWJ[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCLAMVS.BITNET>

> Subject: Re: Re: mooning

>

> I wasn't gonna get involved with this one, but the first citation of 27/8/63

> interested me with the comment about origin two years earlier in California.

> The time frame works, more or less, since I first heard of the practice in

> Sept 1961 in college. I had just entered college (Columbia, NY) and heard

> about pretty soon after. Until now I assumed it was an older custom

> somewhere, and certainly NOT a New York City custom. Men exposing their

> asses to unknown women (and esp when other unknown MEN might also see them)

> is not consistent with the New York City variety of machismo of the time.

> Thus, I believe the custom came from elsewhere, and was practiced by people

> from elsewhere, even if they were college students in New York City. Only

> later did I see reference to the custom among teenagers in the "male

> teenager wants to get his first lay" genre of movies, so that's no good for

> dating purposes (I mean, dating of first citation). Keep researching it

> (if you think it's worthwhile) because as any student of slang

> can tell you, you can't believe what the media says about such things.

> ----------------------TEXT-OF-YOUR-MAIL--------------------------------

>

> > Date:     Thu, 19 May 1994 10:28:30 CDT

> > From:     Randy Roberts <robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EXT.MISSOURI.EDU>

> > Subject:   Re: mooning

> >

> >   I haven't seen any replies to this query. Apologies if others have

> >   answered with earlier cites or if the printed sources are more

> >   helpful.

> >    The earliest use I found is the 27 August 1963 issue of Look, page

> >   18. ". . . a game called mooning. Three or four boys will crouch

> >   down in a car, lower their trousers and, at a signal, push their bare

> >   bottoms out of every available window. This pastime originated about

> >   two years ago in southern California and has crossed the country: it

> >   has now turned up in Florida." See also March 1965 issue of Holiday,

> >   page 44. From the January 1966 issue of Esquire, page 60, comes ". .

> >   . there are even some girls who enjoy throwing a moon now and then,

> >   just for the hell of it or maybe to strike a blow for academic freedom

> >   . . ."

> >    I found all of the info above in our collection of Scott, Foresman

> >   and Company files. The cites were collected by Clarence Barnhart and

> >   Ethel Strainchamps.

> >

> >   Randy Roberts

> >   Univ. of Missouri-Columbia

> >   robertsr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ext.missouri.edu

> >

> >

> > ______________________________ Reply Separator _______________________________

> __

> > Subject: mooning

> > Author: kakelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU at INTERNET-EXT

> > Date:  5/13/94 11:41 PM

> >

> >

> > colleagues--can anyone provide info on the earliest attested use of the

> > term "mooning"--the defiant showing of buttocks, usually at figures of

> > authority, by adolescent types? Thanks, Kathleen Kelly

>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 May 1994 06:57:42 CDT

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: More Old Mail (spring chickens and dead cats)



> Date:     Thu, 19 May 1994 20:07:02 -0400

> From: BITNET list server at UGA (1.7f) <LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu>

> Subject:   ADS-L: error report from UCLAMVS

>

> The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid

> 5866 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error

> notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field

> pointing to the list has been found in mail body.

>

> ------------------ Message in error (24 lines) -------------------------

> Date:  Thu, 19 May 94 17:04 PDT

> From:  benji wald              <IBENAWJ[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCLAMVS.BITNET>

> Subject: Re: Re: Spring chicken

>

> A propos to spring chickens, where do they say

>      "there's a dead cat on the line"

> to mean there's static on /my/ end of the telephone line ... and why?

>

> ------------------------TEXT-OF-YOUR-MAIL--------------------------------

>

> > Date:     Tue, 17 May 1994 20:53:40 CDT

> > Subject:   Re: Spring chicken

> >

> > I half remember that we used to use the term 'poult' for chickens between

> > the chick and fryer stage of growth. I may be getting interference from

> > something other than natural memory, if such exists.

> >                           DMLance, U of MO



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 May 1994 08:09:20 EDT

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Red Rover



Christina E Ogburn wrote:



>Also, someone mentioned the game "Red Rover." Is this the same game

>where someone says "Red Rover, red rover, I dare Suzie (or anyone) to

>come over?" If so, this was one of my favorite games when I was a child

>in Delaware.



Yes, except in S.A., TX, we said, "Red rover, red rover, let Suzie come over."







Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 May 1994 07:04:11 CDT

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: "pile-ons"



Although slightly different from the pile-on games people have been

describing, "sardines" also involved bodies crammed together. Did any

of the rest of you play it?

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 May 1994 07:09:27 CDT

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Red Rover



> Yes, except in S.A., TX, we said, "Red rover, red rover, let Suzie come over."



In Mississippi it was "Red rover, red rover, send Suzie right over."

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 May 1994 08:19:43 EDT

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Alabama query



Rudy Troike wrote:



> A colleague of mine from northern Alabama

>passed on the following query:

>    From his mother's generation, in Walker County, "high assing" meant

>"going out and making a spectacle of yourself" or just "going out on the town".

>Is this expression still alive and well? Is it used elsewhere?

>    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



I believe that I have heard a white transplant from northern Alabama

(Marshal County, I think) say a form of the expression in a report of what

black people say of other black people. I thought that the expression

(which I remember as "high assed") had something to do with arrogance or

pride, but I'll keep my ears open.











Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 May 1994 10:22:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Anty, anty I over?



In the Louisville area in the 1950's (well, perhaps a little earlier), I

remember Annie Annie over (same rules as cited before); definitely not 'Anty.'

A 'pig-tail' in the same area was a position in unofficial softball/baseball

games. A younger (or less-skilled) player was positioned behind the catcher to

retrieve any balls that got past him. He was the 'pig-tail' (though, I blush

to say, in those sexist times it was often she who was the pig-tail).

Dennis Preston

<22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 May 1994 11:25:37 CDT

From:  "Donald M. Lance" <ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Red Rover



Red Rover and Annie Over (variant pronunciation) used the rules outlined

in other messages when I was a kid in South Texas. And I remember something

about pigtails in Annie Over. Long time ago. Keep-Away was a popular game

with a ball, but it wasn't fair to grab it out of someone's hands.

I was born in North Texas (Gainesville) and lived there till age 7, so

I learned many of these games from cousins there, who also had Oklahoma and

Arkansas connections. There may have been some rule books for recess games,

and that explains why similar rules were used throughout the country.

                            DMLance



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 May 1994 13:11:54 CST

From:  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU

Subject: Re: Alabama query



DARE doesn't have "high assing," but cf "high-ended" and "high-farkin',"

both of which have similar connotations.

Joan Hall



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 May 1994 18:26:02 CDT

From:  Mike Picone <MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET>

Subject: say-so



I need help with the origin of an obscure usage in Cajun

French. It seems that some years ago the English loan (or switch)

"say-so" had currency in Cajun French. In _Louisiana-French_ (1931), Wm

Reed says: Used in various ways, "un say-so de creme," for example,

is the equivalent of `a cone of ice cream'. Daigle's _Dictionary of

the Cajun Language_ (1984, not reliable but is one of the very few tools

that exist to work with) has: say-so (Engl.), n.m., Ice cream (in cone).

Smith & Phillips (1939, Am. Speech, 14:200) has: SAY SO |seso| An ice-

cream cone.



Does anybody have any idea of what English usage could have given rise

to this? To begin with, maybe somebody has a DARE at hand...



Thanks.

Mike Picone

University of Alabama



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 24 May 1994 to 25 May 1994 - Unfinished

*************************************************************







There are 12 messages totalling 238 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Anty --> Annie in California (2)

 2. Red Rover (7)

 3. Anty, anty I over?

 4. queries

 5. More Old Mail ("mooning")



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 May 1994 21:12:43 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike <RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET>

Subject: Anty --> Annie in California



    The following is from my colleague, a California native.





From:  UACCIT::MSAVILLE   25-MAY-1994 06:42

To:   UACCIT::RTROIKE

CC:

Subj:  RE: A California game too?



Growing up in California in the 40's, we played "Annie Annie Over" (a

phonologically degenerate form of "Anty Anty High Over"). We also had

simpler game rules. When you caught or otherwise retrieved the ball, you

ran around to tag the person who threw it, and then it was your chance

to throw. I've never heard anyone call "Pig Tail" for a miss. We'd just

try again.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 May 1994 00:18:44 -0500

From:  Nancy Harwood <harwood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TENET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Red Rover



Don's comment about rule books for recess games makes sense...that would

explain why so many of us remember pretty similar games.



Recess used to be fun...unless, of course, you had done something bad and

had to "walk the walk" (walking back and forth on the sidewalk from the

front of the building to the side, without talking to anyone) or "stand

up" (a punishment reserved for more serious crimes...you had to stand up

against the side wall of the school building and not talk to anybody.)

These punishments worked pretty welL at keeping juvenile behavior in

line, at least with goody two-shoes types like me; I remember the only

time I had to "stand up" at recess, I was terrified the whole time that

my mother would pass the school and see me...and I knew I would be in

terrible trouble then!

-----Nancy Harwood-----------------------------------------------------------

harwood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tenet.edu        News is *not* more important than breakfast.

                      But e-mail might be.

                        --Mic Kaczmarczik



------------------------------



Date:  Wed, 25 May 1994 22:33:23 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike <RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Red Rover



Date: Wed, 25 May 1994 07:09:27 -0500 (CDT)

From: Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: RE: Red Rover



> Yes, except in S.A., TX, we said, "Red rover, red rover, let Suzie come over."



In Mississippi it was "Red rover, red rover, send Suzie right over."

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



Wayne Glowka did in San Antone.

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



In Brownsville, Texas, ("Crossroads of the Hemisphere") we said the same as



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 May 1994 12:20:19 -0400

From:  "Terry Pratt, UPEI" <TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA>

Subject: Re: Anty, anty I over?



In Prince Edward Island, Canada, according to the

Dictionary of Prince Edward Island English, we have

anti-over, aunty-over, andy-over, Charlie-over

haley-over, handy-over, alley-alley-over, leapo, leap

ball, leap frog [sic], and leap. DARE records many

other variants in the US. I second the motion that

DARE should be consulted routinely.



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 May 1994 08:52:29 -0700

From:  Roger Vanderveen <rvander[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ICHIPS.INTEL.COM>

Subject: Re: Anty --> Annie in California



I grew up in California in the 60's, and this phrase existed as part of a

jingle we would chant while jumping rope:



    Bluebells, cockle shells, eeny iny over







===============================================================================

Roger Vanderveen                       Intel Corporation

Hillsboro, OR                   Take me down to Jones's farm

===============================================================================



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 May 1994 11:42:14 -0500

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: Red Rover



Rule books for recess games? Come on, isn't that a lot like saying

language is learned through basal readers rather than from human

interaction? I doubt that the folklorists would look for rulebooks. How

did you learn your jump rope rhymes? Who learned baseball, stickball,

boxball, Chinese and American handball, catchaflies up, Russia, running

bases, or any of the other childhood games from books? not even dorks like

me!



Dennis Baron (the nerd, not to be confused with All-American Preston)

-----

Dennis Baron                       debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English                  217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 May 1994 13:12:10 -0500

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: Red Rover



Plus, I wasn't picked last for teams for schoolyard games. I wasn't

picked, period.



Dennis

--

Dennis Baron                       debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English                  217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 May 1994 13:44:15 -700

From:  Keith Russell <wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]US.DYNIX.COM>

Subject: Re: queries



On Tue, 24 May 1994, Martha Howard wrote:



> Luanne, I agree with Wayne in Texas that Jack Frost colorsthe leave in fall--

> at least, he did in Michigan. And like Randy, I remember King of the hill

> requiring something like a hill, from the summit of which one brave soul

> held off all invaders. (Missouri, Chicago, and Michigan.)



My Southern Alberta dialect agrees on both counts.



Keith Russell



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 May 1994 14:00:26 -700

From:  Keith Russell <wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]US.DYNIX.COM>

Subject: Re: Red Rover



I missed the description of this game. Would someone be willing to repost

it for me?



Thanks.



Keith Russell



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 May 1994 18:23:00 EDT

From:  "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU>

Subject: More Old Mail ("mooning")



Bad enough that the weather is so crappy here in East Lansing (when I am sure,

it is comfortable and steamy in Louisville); added to it, I am almost brought

to tears by Dennis Baron's account of his standing by the side of the field

during childhood games, unchosen by us All-American types.

First, if he had read an earlier message of mine, he would have taken heart

that we might have chosen him to play pigtail (behind the catcher) in our

softball/baseball outings.

Second, in spite of my obvious lower Midwestern/upper Southern roots, he

should know that I am really a Pekelnicky (an obviously Slavic loan name into

Hungarian) and not so thoroughly All-American as he might suspect. (What could

my daddy do? He left the comfort of southern Illinois coal-mining Hungarians

to open a paint and wallpaper business in southernIndiana.)Pekelnicky's Paint

Store? No way.

Sadly (with the vision of a tearful but well-washed Dennis B. standing by the

side of the field).

Dennis P.

<22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 May 1994 17:31:52 -0500

From:  Christina E Ogburn <ogburce[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Red Rover



When I was growing up, we played games like this in P.E. Maybe that is

where the "rules" are coming from instead of recess. I know someone

mentioned recess game rules, but perhaps they meant P.E.





On Thu, 26 May 1994 debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU wrote:



> Rule books for recess games? Come on, isn't that a lot like saying

> language is learned through basal readers rather than from human

> interaction? I doubt that the folklorists would look for rulebooks. How

> did you learn your jump rope rhymes? Who learned baseball, stickball,

> boxball, Chinese and American handball, catchaflies up, Russia, running

> bases, or any of the other childhood games from books? not even dorks like

> me!

>

> Dennis Baron (the nerd, not to be confused with All-American Preston)

> -----

> Dennis Baron                       debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu

>

> Department of English                  217-333-2392

> University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

> 608 South Wright Street

> Urbana, Illinois 61801

>



------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 May 1994 22:26:58 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: Red Rover



On Thu, 26 May 1994 debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU wrote:



> Plus, I wasn't picked last for teams for schoolyard games. I wasn't

> picked, period.



Heck, neither was I. I guess thats why I went into linguistics.



Tim



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 25 May 1994 to 26 May 1994

************************************************







There are 18 messages totalling 404 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Textual Dialect & Literacy

 2. Red Rover (6)

 3. Red Rover play action (3)

 4. Ringaleavio/Capture the Flag (4)

 5. Alaska versions of pile and soda

 6. games kids play

 7. Pissed off

 8. Earliest reference to "Mooning"



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Thu, 26 May 1994 23:22:10 -0400

From:  Clayton Gillespie <CLAYKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DELPHI.COM>

Subject: Textual Dialect & Literacy



Howdy (all?) y'all!



I have two quick (but not especially easy) questions:



 1) Does anyone know of work that attempts dialectological study on

   the basis of textual evidence alone. (I.e. phonology is completely

   ignored, and preferably syntactical difference is privileged over

   word choice.)



 2) Does anyone know of work relating literacy to dialect. I am asking

   about literary competence in the home spoken dialect (English or

   non-English) in the U.S.



Thanks for your attention.



- Clayton Gillespie

 Electra Software & Consulting

 clayke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]delphi.com



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 May 1994 08:21:07 EDT

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Red Rover



>I missed the description of this game. Would someone be willing to repost

>it for me?

>

>Thanks.

>

>Keith Russell



In Red Rover, two groups of children stand at opposite ends of the yard and

link arms. All of the children on one side chant, "Red rover, red rover,

let xxxx come over." The child named in the chant runs across the yard and

attempts to crash through the linked arms of two of the children on the

opposing team. If the child succeeds in crashing through the arms, his

team has won the game or at least a point. Arguments may arise over the

problem of rolling over the linked arms or crawling under them. The game

was forbidden because of rumors concerning injuries, but I never saw anyone

get hurt. Baseball and football were different matters, however.





I enjoyed this game much more than either Simon Says or Mother, May I. We

probably played four square more than any other game. The game I hated the

most was ball tag. My pain, Dennis, was here in this game because I was

always it and too small to knock anybody else down. My secret favorite game

was jax with the girls on the classroom floor when rain kept us inside for

recess. Ah, for a mouthful of paper paste and a noseful of pencil

shavings!





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 May 1994 08:58:07 -0600

From:  Larry Davis <DAVIS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WSUHUB.UC.TWSU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Red Rover



Both Dennis and Tim are overly modest. Dennis was known to his schoolmates as

"General Desolation Baron," and Tim's monicker was "Can Whup a Mountain Lion

Fraser." This is not the time for revisionist history!



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 May 1994 10:59:24 -0500

From:  debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU

Subject: Re: Red Rover



In my experience as a sideline observer of children's games--oh and even an

occasional participant though I have blocked out the worst memories, having

been not only short like Wayne but fat and wearing eyeglasses and not

well-washed either--anyway, my experience is that there are two types of

games going on here, ones where teachers actually taught us rules

(volleyball, baseball, basketball) and ones the kids play during free play,

which is what we called it, and these are the culturally transmitted games

I'm talking about. King of the hill is not a rule book game. I don't know

about the official history of Red Rover, or if it is what we in Queens in

the early 1950s called Ring O Leevie O (any other NYers out there know this

game? anybody know what the words might mean?22)--but it doesn't seem like

an instructor-taught game to me. Of course the after-school games that we

played we did in the alleys back of our houses, or in the street, because

the big kids would chase us out of the schoolyard. We naively imagined

that one day we would become the big kids and get to chase little kids, but

somehow that never happened.



Dennis B (who is sorry to have imputed All American-ness to Dennis P.

Betcha can't guess where my father was from.)





-----





Dennis Baron                       debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu



Department of English                  217-333-2392

University of Illinois                fax: 217-333-4321

608 South Wright Street

Urbana, Illinois 61801



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 May 1994 11:03:16 CDT

From:  Mike Picone <MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET>

Subject: Red Rover play action



In describing Red Rover play action, Wayne Glowka wrote:



>If the child succeeds in crashing through the arms, his

>team has won the game or at least a point.



That's not how I remember playing it in either Illinois (as a kid) or

Oregon (as a camp counselor). Red Rover was the if-you-can't-beat-'em-join-

'em game par excellence. When someone from side A couldn't accumulate

enough force to break through linked arms on side B, he/she was absorbed

into triumphant side B. If he/she succeded in breaking through, he/she

would take someone back as booty to enlarge the ranks of side A. When

and if one side was completely absorbed by the other, the game came to

an end. Needless to say, it could be like the card game War and go

on ad nauseum. Kind of like this discussion. (Ha, ha, only kidding of

course.)



Mike Picone

University of Alabama



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 May 1994 13:05:39 -0400

From:  Robert Kelly <kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Red Rover



Ringaleavio (if we spelled it at all) was the big-time hide and seek game,

bases and safety areas and huge areas of turf covered, block after block.

Little kids yearned to play it, but were confined to hide and seek and

the like. NY in the 1940s, when all the teenage boys were in the army,

and the subteens, the essential _kids_ dominated the streets, with little

to fear except merchants and policemen.  What characterized ringaleavio

in my experience (waiting to be old enough to play, then playing) was the

large investment of space and time, an all-day game sometimes in July and

August, full of real aggressions and deceptions. My memories are vague,

but not all sweet, by any means. Grogan, the late Yippie leader, had a

novel called RINGALEAVIO a couple of decades back, wch I never read, but

sounded promising.



rk



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 May 1994 12:10:42 CDT

From:  Mike Picone <MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET>

Subject: Ringaleavio/Capture the Flag



Ringaleavio in NY sounds like an elaborate version of what we played

under the name Capture the Flag. A flag was hidden somewhere in a

secret base that was protected by its team. Decoy bases were also

frequently set up to deceive the enemy team. If one successfully

captured the flag of the opposing team and returned safely with it

to one's own base, victory was declared.



Mike Picone

University of Alabama



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 May 1994 10:35:42 -0700

From:  THOMAS L CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Alaska versions of pile and soda



On Tue, 24 May 1994, Tracey McHenry wrote:

[snip]

 I suspect that I said

> pop, but after 3 years of college in Portland OR I was forced into using 'soda'

> in order to escape ridicule from my many Hawaiian friends. Does anyone

> have any info, first hand or otherwise, on the use of these terms in the

> West and/or Northwest? It seems to me that anything goes, except tonic.



I just returned from Spokane and Couer d' Alene. We stopped at a 7-11

for gas. The cooler had a large sign above it that said in red letters,

"BEER AND POP." A smaller sign made with those little white plastic

letters about one inch high said "fountian (sic) pop 65 cents, floats, 95

cents." Family members who are lifelong residents of Spokane say "pop"

but more often use the brand name.

Cheers,

tlc



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 May 1994 15:00:56 EDT

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Red Rover play action



Wayne Glowka notes that his memory was wrong. He defers to Mike Picone.



>In describing Red Rover play action, Wayne Glowka wrote:

>

>>If the child succeeds in crashing through the arms, his

>>team has won the game or at least a point.

>

>That's not how I remember playing it in either Illinois (as a kid) or

>Oregon (as a camp counselor). Red Rover was the if-you-can't-beat-'em-join-

>'em game par excellence. When someone from side A couldn't accumulate

>enough force to break through linked arms on side B, he/she was absorbed

>into triumphant side B. If he/she succeded in breaking through, he/she

>would take someone back as booty to enlarge the ranks of side A. When

>and if one side was completely absorbed by the other, the game came to

>an end. Needless to say, it could be like the card game War and go

>on ad nauseum. Kind of like this discussion. (Ha, ha, only kidding of

>course.)

>

>Mike Picone

>University of Alabama



Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 May 1994 15:02:33 EDT

From:  Wayne Glowka <wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ringaleavio/Capture the Flag



Capture the flag! Oh, no, another bad memory from one of the last campouts

in Boy Scouts. Thank God for puberty.





Wayne Glowka

Professor of English

Georgia College

Milledgeville, GA 31061

912-453-4222

wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 May 1994 14:56:51 EDT

From:  Larry Horn <LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ringaleavio/Capture the Flag



OK, it's all coming back to me, slowly. But either there was an isogloss

through the center of the city or a change in nomenclature at some point. We

played something very much like what was just described, but under the name of

"Steal the White Flag", although I think Capture the Flag was an alternate

moniker. One essential defining feature of our version, as I recall, was the

existence of a Jail within enemy territory where you had to go when caught

wandering across No Man's Land [sic] and grabbed for three "n-one hundred"s; a

teammate could free you from jail but I think you had to get back to your

territory before returning across the line to steal the flag. We played in

Central Park. But we didn't call it Ringaleevio, which was a name that I

always thought went with a DIFFERENT game.   --Larry



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 May 1994 12:17:07 -0700

From:  THOMAS L CLARK <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>

Subject: Re: Red Rover



Thanks for the explanation Wayne. Now would someone do the same for

Ring O'Leavio (some Irish game?)

Cheers,

tlc



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 May 1994 15:50:04 CDT

From:  Mike Picone <MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET>

Subject: games kids play



It dawned on me during this discussion of games kids play that the

social context of a lot of this might be quite special and culture

dependent, even though when I was in the midst of it, this possibility

never crossed my mind. What I mean is that I remember spending seemingly

endless quantities of hours totally unsupervised by adults, roaming the

neighborhood until dark (and later sometimes), networking with an

extensive `parallel' society of kids that would organize itself for the

purpose of all sorts of contests, games and other activities of our own

invention. I don't see my own kids here in our present Alabama context

doing anything on this same scale. Certainly part of it has to do with

the urban environment I grew up in. The number of kids available

within a certain radius must be sufficient to hit critical mass and

permit this kind of thing. But there's more to it than that. For one

thing, `networking' may be more peculiarly American than we know. The

French typically have more restricted circles of friends, and I think

this is reflected even at an early age. I did not see activity of a

similar type and scale among French kids in urban areas of France.

But that isn't all.

Parents today, including me, are paranoid of letting kids have that much

lattitude. I think it is true that we are living in less innocent times.

This is regrettable. My memories of that freedom are fond and may well

have been very formative.



Do other people have notions about this?



Mike Picone

University of Alabama



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 May 1994 17:36:01 -0400

From:  Robert Kelly <kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ringaleavio/Capture the Flag



Brooklyn (Flatbush, later East New York) on same side of isogloss as

Larry Horn's uptown Manhattan (if I remember correctly). No capturing

of anything in Ringaleavio. Jails and hostages yes, but no flags, grails,

goals.



rk



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 May 1994 15:44:31 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike <RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Red Rover



Dennis,

    I wonder if there is a correlation between not being picked for

competitive schoolyard games and winding up in an English department?

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 May 1994 16:03:15 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike <RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Red Rover play action



I think I recall that in Brownsville, TX, the game was played as Mike has

described it. Rule-books or no, we did learn the game at school from the

teacher.

    --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 May 1994 16:31:56 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike <RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET>

Subject: Pissed off



This inquiry comes from my colleague Dick Demes, an Oregonian.





From:  UACCIT::DEMERS    25-MAY-1994 09:43



For kids piling on top of each other, the term pigpile came to mind first.

But I am not at all confident that this is a correct term.

In the 50's I remember the expression "as mad as a fly pissed off a toilet

seat" and assume that this is source of the current pissed off. Anybody

have a different idea?



------------------------------



Date:  Fri, 27 May 1994 16:43:53 -0700

From:  Rudy Troike <RTROIKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVMS.BITNET>

Subject: Earliest reference to "Mooning"



From:  UACCIT::SEISNER   "Sigmund Eisner" 14-MAY-1994 11:22

To:   RTROIKE

CC:   SEISNER

Subj:  And what do you make of this one?



From: Kathleen Kelly <kakelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LYNX.DAC.NEU.EDU>

Subject: RE: "Piled," monkeys, baboons, etc.

Sender: Chaucer Discussion Group <CHAUCER%UICVM.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVM1.ccit.arizona.edu>

To: Multiple recipients of list CHAUCER

 <CHAUCER%UICVM.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARIZVM1.ccit.arizona.edu>



>

> To follow up with respect to the baldness of simian rear ends:

>

> One of my favorite passages in all of Chaucer occurs in the Parson's Tale

> De superbia concerning the superfluity of clothing and scantness of

> clothing:

>

>     Allas, somme of hem shewen the boce of hir shape and the horrible

>     swollen membres that semeth lik the maladie of hirnia, in the

>     wrappynge of hir hoses, / and eek the buttokes of hem faren as it

>     were the hyndre part of a she-ape in the fulle of the mone.

>     (X 423-24)

>

yes, one of my favorites, too--so I'll ask a question I asked several

months ago--what *is* the earliest attested use of the verb "to

moon"--wouldn't it be too wonderful if this sophomoric in-your-face

(excuse me) activity was related to ancient and medieval ape lore?

Kathleen Kelly



Rudy, what do you or your group make of this one? What is the earliest

usage of the current verb "to moon"? I learned it in my old age, but it

may well have been around for a while.

                Sig



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 26 May 1994 to 27 May 1994

************************************************







There are 6 messages totalling 153 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Textual Dialect & Literacy (4)

 2. Red Rover (2)



----------------------------------------------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 May 1994 13:47:10 -0700

From:  "Joseph B. Monda" <monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Textual Dialect & Literacy



On Thu, 26 May 1994, Clayton Gillespie wrote:



> Howdy (all?) y'all!

>

> I have two quick (but not especially easy) questions:

>

>  1) Does anyone know of work that attempts dialectological study on

>    the basis of textual evidence alone. (I.e. phonology is completely

>    ignored, and preferably syntactical difference is privileged over

>    word choice.)



The work done on Middle English Dialects by I think Moore, Meech and

Markwardt

Joe Monda



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 May 1994 21:13:39 -0500

From:  Charles F Juengling <juen0001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOLD.TC.UMN.EDU>

Subject: Re: Textual Dialect & Literacy



On Sat, 28 May 1994, Joseph B. Monda wrote:



> On Thu, 26 May 1994, Clayton Gillespie wrote:

>

> > Howdy (all?) y'all!

> >

> > I have two quick (but not especially easy) questions:

> >

> >  1) Does anyone know of work that attempts dialectological study on

> >    the basis of textual evidence alone. (I.e. phonology is completely

> >    ignored, and preferably syntactical difference is privileged over

> >    word choice.)

>

> The work done on Middle English Dialects by I think Moore, Meech and

> Markwardt

> Joe Monda



"Middle English Dialect Characteristics and Dialect Boundaries" by Moore,

Meech and Whitehall. In _Essays and Studies in English and Comparative

Literature_  Ann Arbor: U of Michigan Press. 1935.



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 May 1994 19:50:39 -0700

From:  "Joseph B. Monda" <monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU>

Subject: Re: Textual Dialect & Literacy



On Sat, 28 May 1994, Charles F Juengling wrote:



> On Sat, 28 May 1994, Joseph B. Monda wrote:

> >

> > The work done on Middle English Dialects by I think Moore, Meech and

> > Markwardt

> > Joe Monda

>

> "Middle English Dialect Characteristics and Dialect Boundaries" by Moore,

> Meech and Whitehall. In _Essays and Studies in English and Comparative

> Literature_  Ann Arbor: U of Michigan Press. 1935.

>

Thanks for the correction Charles, but was there something later as

well? It's been a long time, so I don't have the dope at my fingertips.

Besides that work, I would guess that McIntosh and Samuels also fall into

the textual dialect studies as well.



I slipped into about 20 years of administration and lost track. I wish

--adding all to all--- I'd stayed in the classroom fulltime. It's a lot

more fun.



Byt the by, no one says "spendy" in Seattle. One might hear "pricey," though.

Adios

Joe Monda



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 May 1994 21:55:37 -0500

From:  Dennis Baron <baron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Red Rover



>

> Dennis,

>     I wonder if there is a correlation between not being picked for

> competitive schoolyard games and winding up in an English department?

>     --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu)

>





Well, Rudy, looking at my colleagues I'd say yes. But what happens is

all of a sudden a few of them suddenly discover they're really closet

jocks and you get a department softball team and volleyball team and

then of course you know that the next step is that they're all hobbling

around with knee bandages and wrist casts and foam collars.



So our softball team, the Frumious Bandersnatch, fell apart after the

captain had triple bypass surgery and the pitcher got a rotator cuff

infjury. Our department jazz band went the same way: the Footnotes

trumpet player couldn't figure out how to read charts with bifocals on

and the tenor sax man got a new computer .



---

dennis







debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu        (\          217-333-2392

                \'\       fax: 217-333-4321

Dennis Baron          \'\      __________

Department of English      / '|     ()_________)

Univ. of Illinois        \ '/     \ ~~~~~~~~ \

608 S. Wright St.         \       \ ~~~~~~  \

Urbana IL 61801          ==).      \__________\

                 (__)       ()__________)



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 May 1994 22:26:43 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: Textual Dialect & Literacy



On Thu, 26 May 1994, Clayton Gillespie wrote:

>

>  1) Does anyone know of work that attempts dialectological study on

>    the basis of textual evidence alone. (I.e. phonology is completely

>    ignored, and preferably syntactical difference is privileged over

>    word choice.)

>

Yes--Norman Eliason, #Tarheel Talk#--pub in 50s? not sure.

CC Fries, #American English Grammar#, 1940s. Both use textual sources,

like letters. I don't remember just how much dialect is in Fries, but it

should be a good source.



Tim Frazer



------------------------------



Date:  Sat, 28 May 1994 22:40:52 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: Red Rover



Dennis,



At least your department does things together. That's better than the

wars and power struggles that seem so much a part of academic life,

at least from my perspective.



Tim



------------------------------



End of ADS-L Digest - 27 May 1994 to 28 May 1994

************************************************







There are 4 messages totalling 70 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. American English Grammar - Fries

 2. Truce Terms (3)



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Date:  Mon, 30 May 1994 13:45:29 CDT

From:  "Krahn, Al" <AKRA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU>

Subject: American English Grammar - Fries



Clayton

The subtitle of the Charles Carpenter Fries book (Appleton-Century-

Crofts, 1940) is The Grammatical Structure of Present-Day American

English with Especial Reference to Social Differences or Class

Dialects.



In Chapt. 3 he alludes to three thousand letters from "certain

files of informal correspondence in the possession of the

United States Goverment" as the source of the study. Also, copies

of the letters are on deposit at the University of Michigan

Library. Only handwritten (not typed) letters were used. Some

demographic information was also available about the writers of the

letters, such as date and place of birth of the writer and the writer's

parents, addresses, records of schooling, occupations, and in some

cases confidential reports on the families!



I'm glad you brought this up. It made me read that chapter, something

I probably skipped in the past.



AKRA



Albert E. Krahn           E-Mail AKRA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU

Division of Lib. Arts and Sciences  Fax  414/297-7990

Milwaukee Area Technical College   Ph (H) 414/476-4025

Milwaukee, WI  53233-1443     Ph (W) 414/297-6519



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Date:  Mon, 30 May 1994 14:00:52 -0500

From:  Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>

Subject: Truce Terms



I almost forgot. As Benji Wald was rushing away to Holland a few days

ago (he'll be back soon), he suggested that I start a thread on ADS-L

about "truce terms" -- as in time out from the game. The example he

gave was "five (fingers)." He's got an interesting example to give but

wanted to see first what the various regional terms are.

  --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)



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Date:  Mon, 30 May 1994 15:55:30 -0400

From:  Robert Kelly <kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEVY.BARD.EDU>

Subject: Re: Truce Terms



Brooklyn 1940s: fins



(short for fingers?)



and kings



(less common --- people learned that from their fathers)



rk



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Date:  Mon, 30 May 1994 21:53:51 -0500

From:  mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU

Subject: Re: Truce Terms



King's X? But I don't know if that was local (NW Ill.) or something we

got from the movies.



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End of ADS-L Digest - 28 May 1994 to 30 May 1994

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There are 9 messages totalling 184 lines in this issue.



Topics of the day:



 1. Truce Terms (2)

 2. truce terms

 3. say-so

 4. Ringaleavio/Capture the Flag (2)

 5. `new man' terms

 6. Anty, anty I over?

 7. Earliest reference to "Mooning"



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Date:  Mon, 30 May 1994 22:41:44 -700

From:  Keith Russell <wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]US.DYNIX.COM>

Subject: Re: Truce Terms



On Mon, 30 May 1994 mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU wrote:



> King's X? But I don't know if that was local (NW Ill.) or something we

> got from the movies.



Definitely not local. It was common in Southern Alberta.



Keith Russell

wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]us.dynix.com



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Date:  Tue, 31 May 1994 00:03:38 CST

From:  Luanne von Schneidemesser <lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>

Subject: truce terms



Truce terms I happen to have been looking at recently in DARE's

database. The most frequent term, 332 informants, is time out,

which while scattered throughout most of the country is most

frequent east of the Mississippi River. Complementing this is

the next most frequent response, 265 informants, king's ex, a

beautiful map which will appear in vol. 3, showing responses in

Ohio, Illinois, the Mississippi Valley, and west of this -- the

Atlantic coast is almost completely without this response. The

next most frequent responses are time (83), times out (56), times

(53), king's (23), and free (11).

Interestingly, my children, aged 10 and 12, use a term not given

by DARE informants, namely T's. So my question is, is use of the

responses given by DARE informants changing? How about other

children you know -- do they fit in to the above?

I might add that my kids thought king's ex, the term I grew up

with in Kansas which they had never heard until I used it about a

year ago, was hilarious!!



Luanne



Luanne von Schneidemesser, 608-263-2748

DARE, 6129 Helen C. White Hall, 600 North Park, Madison, WI 53706



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Date:  Tue, 31 May 1994 04:06:41 -0400

From:  Clayton Gillespie <CLAYKE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DELPHI.COM>

Subject: say-so



>I need help with the origin of an obscure usage in Cajun

>French. It seems that some years ago the English loan (or switch)

>"say-so" had currency in Cajun French. In _Louisiana-French_ (1931), Wm

>Reed says: Used in various ways, "un say-so de creme," for example,

>is the equivalent of `a cone of ice cream'. Daigle's _Dictionary of

>the Cajun Language_ (1984, not reliable but is one of the very few tools

>that exist to work with) has: say-so (Engl.), n.m., Ice cream (in cone).

>Smith & Phillips (1939, Am. Speech, 14:200) has: SAY SO |seso| An ice-

>cream cone.

>

>Does anybody have any idea of what English usage could have given rise

>to this? To begin with, maybe somebody has a DARE at hand...



My grandparents are Tippidot Cajun, and so I have had the opportunity

to misapprehend the patois on many occasions. For example, to me,

"Mon cher" sounds like "Moe shah" when spoken in the patois. Perhaps

the above usage is a bad transcription of "soupc,on"?



This is an ignorant speculation, of course.



- Clayton Gillespie

 Electra Software & Consulting

 clayke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]delphi.com



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Date:  Tue, 31 May 1994 11:17:23 -0400

From:  Elizabeth Martinez <MARTINEZE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COFC.EDU>

Subject: Re: Ringaleavio/Capture the Flag



coming from Queens, NY, I agree. Our version of what you call Ringoleavio

was to take hostages and put them in prisons. Then someone could come to

let them out and hopefully not get caught.



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Date:  Tue, 31 May 1994 11:15:57 CDT

From:  Mike Picone <MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET>

Subject: Re: Ringaleavio/Capture the Flag



As was pointed out by someone earlier, Capture the Flag might indeed

include jails and prisoners. Whether or not decoy bases and jails could

be set up and manned depended, of course, on available personnel. One

way of freeing up personnel was to hide the flag in the secret base so

well that it could go virtually unguarded. Of course, when prisoners

were caught, they could be induced to `talk'. This was always accomplished

through friendly persuasion in those `innocent times', to the best of my

recollection at least.



It occurs to me now that a more modern (less innocent?) version of this

came into being in the form of sophisticated enacting of "Dungeons &

Dragons."



Mike Picone

University of Alabama



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Date:  Tue, 31 May 1994 11:27:46 CDT

From:  Mike Picone <MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET>

Subject: `new man' terms



Along with truce terms (`king's ex' was a revelation to me, I only know

`time out' and `time') is there any variation on `new man' terms?

For us it was always: 1, 2, ... 10 new man!



Mike Picone

University of Alabama



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Date:  Tue, 31 May 1994 14:17:27 CST

From:  jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU

Subject: Re: Truce Terms



Re fins and fingers: see DARE at _fins_ exclam 2, and _fingers_ exclam.



Joan Hall, DARE



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Date:  Tue, 31 May 1994 15:36:51 -0500

From:  "Gerald W. Walton" <vcgw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.BACKBONE.OLEMISS.EDU>

Subject: Re: Anty, anty I over?



At 12:20 PM 5/26/94 -0400, Terry Pratt, UPEI wrote:

>In Prince Edward Island, Canada, according to the

>Dictionary of Prince Edward Island English, we have

>anti-over, aunty-over, andy-over, Charlie-over

>haley-over....



In Mississippi I guess it was some version of haley over. At any rate, my

memory is that we used something more like "hell over" or "hail over,"

probably mispronunciations of the haley-over. GWW



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Date:  Tue, 31 May 1994 16:54:43 -0700

From:  Roger Vanderveen <rvander[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ICHIPS.INTEL.COM>

Subject: Re: Earliest reference to "Mooning"



  >

  > To follow up with respect to the baldness of simian rear ends:

  >

  > One of my favorite passages in all of Chaucer occurs in the Parson's Tale

  > De superbia concerning the superfluity of clothing and scantness of

  > clothing:

  >

  >     Allas, somme of hem shewen the boce of hir shape and the horrible

  >     swollen membres that semeth lik the maladie of hirnia, in the

  >     wrappynge of hir hoses, / and eek the buttokes of hem faren as it

  >     were the hyndre part of a she-ape in the fulle of the mone.

  >     (X 423-24)

  >

  yes, one of my favorites, too--so I'll ask a question I asked several

  months ago--what *is* the earliest attested use of the verb "to

  moon"--wouldn't it be too wonderful if this sophomoric in-your-face

  (excuse me) activity was related to ancient and medieval ape lore?

  Kathleen Kelly



  Rudy, what do you or your group make of this one? What is the earliest

  usage of the current verb "to moon"? I learned it in my old age, but it

  may well have been around for a while.



I think someone has missed the point. Certainly the passage refers to the

vaginal tissue of a female ape (chimpanzee, for example) which becomes bloated

and protrudes quite visibly during menstruation. The only connection with the

moon is the time of the cycle.



I can't imagine anything "wonderful" about anyone imitating this effect.



Roger



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End of ADS-L Digest - 30 May 1994 to 31 May 1994

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