From: Automatic digest processor (4/2/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 31 Mar 1998 to 1 Apr 1998              98-04-02 00:00:11
This message contains more text than QuickMail can display. The entire message
 has been enclosed as a file.

There are 11 messages totalling 520 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. (gooseberry) fool
  2. A dictionary [gooseberry] fool!
  3. THIS X SUCKS (4)
  4. boycotting
  5. so don't I
  6. THIS X SUCKS and fellatio
  7. THE UNIVERSE SUCKS . . .
  8. freshman composition--again

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Apr 1998 00:15:40 -0500
From:    Alice Faber <faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU>
Subject: (gooseberry) fool

First, I'd like to thank whoever first brought up this topic. I've been
looking for sugar-free and low sugar dessert recipes...So, anyhow, I've just
gone through my cookbook shelf to see if anyone has any hints about the origin
of the term "fool". James Beard, _American Cookery_ simply says that the
concept was brought to the US by English settlers, but provides no
etymological speculations. The Joy of Cooking (mid-1960s edition) provides a
clear folk-etymology (p. 106): "Long ago the word "fool" was used as a term of
endearment. We have an old-fashioned fondness for the recipes in which fruit
is combined with cream. None of my more nouvel cookbooks even list "fool" in
the index; most don't include "gooseberries" either.

Alice Faber

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Apr 1998 01:02:07 -0600
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: A dictionary [gooseberry] fool!

Maybe we resorted to cookbooks too soon.  There are a lot of
dictionaries around our house, too.  Both Peggy and I got in the habit
of using the Merriam-Webster Collegiate in or before high school, and
are still prejudiced in its favor today.  But we also have the M-W
Unabridged 3rd International, one of its ancient predecessors from ca.
1890, OED, the Shorter OED, Random House, Funk & Wagnall's, stacks of
more specialized dictionaries -- The Vulgar Tongue, etc., etc. -- and
too many others to mention.

In one of the dictionaries we seldom use, there is the following.  (I
omit italics and indications of pronunciation because they won't
transmit.)

"fool, n. [ME & OFr. fol (Fr. fou), a fool, idiot; LL. follus, follis, a
fool, foolish  < L. follis, a pair of bellows, windbag], 1. a person
with little or no judgment, common sense, wisdom, etc. . . . "

which is followed by a separate entry:

"fool, n. [Early Mod. Eng., kind of trifle (confection); hence, prob. <
fool (silly person) by analogy with trifle], stewed fruit with cream,
especially whipped cream."

Webster's New World Dictionary of the American Language (College
Edition).  World Publishing Co., Cleveland and New York, 1955.

Once more, there's no citation, and that "prob." suggests that they're
guessing, no?

I'm glad the gooseberry fool question came up, because it led me to a
full page, two column article on "gooseberry" in Waverly Root's "Food:
An authoritative and visual history and dictionary of the foods of the
world".  New York: Simon & Schuster, 1980; reprint edition, New York,
Smithmark, 1996.  To whet your appetites, the article begins

"GOOSEBERRY.  William Robbins, in "The American Food Scandal", lists
gooseberries among the foods which it is difficult to find in American
supermarkets; but while it is true that this is the kind of
hard-to-handle fruit which supermarkets prefer not to offer, they cannot
be accused in this case of depriving the American consumer of something
he would dearly like to have.  Americans have never been great
gooseberry fanciers . . .

The English are the world's most fervent gooseberry eaters, with some
help from the Scandinavians and the Teutons (gooseberry pie was a
favorite dish of Adolph Hitler)."

The full article tells me more than I ever wanted to know about
gooseberries.  Root, as usual, is enjoyable, informative, opinionated
(if not downright bigoted), and a lot of fun to read.  In small doses.

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 31 Mar 1998 21:10:23 -0800
From:    Judi Sanders <jasanders[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: THIS X SUCKS

Well, this is anecdotal as well but it is a very specific memory.  In 1970 (I'm
 almost certain of
the date because I was a senior in high school) my boyfriend and I were shopping
 in a store in the
small town where we grew up (Roseburg, Oregon).  On the background music came a
Johnny Cash song that had a line like "that dirty old egg sucking dog."  We were
 completely
scandalized by this and couldn't imagine that that word would be used in public.
  Even though this
was obviously not a sexual context usage, we were sure it really was in some
 oblique way because
that was what that word meant!  That I remember this so vividly after nearly 30
 years should be
evidence of the very shocking nature of this event!  I'm confident that if my
 high school peers were
surveyed, virtually would say the word was "obscene".  Roseburg was a pretty
 conservative place . .
.

Judi Sanders
--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr. Judi Sanders
Professor, Communication
Cal. State Polytechnic U., Pomona
The Web:  http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders
The College Slang Page:  http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders/slang
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Apr 1998 09:39:17 -0500
From:    "George S. Cole" <gscole[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARK.SHIP.EDU>
Subject: Re: THIS X SUCKS

Relative to Judi's comments, and going back to memories of a rural
childhood on a small poultry farm (in Delaware) in the 1940s & 1950s,
both dogs & snakes could be called egg suckers.  With uncaged chickens,
or other poultry for that matter, it was not unusual for range-fed
(today's term) birds to lay an egg, or start a nest, outside of the
chicken house.  If a dog had found out what raw egg tasted like, the
farmer had a problem.  (Freshly laid eggs might be broken for a number
of reasons, including:  too many eggs in the nest; & the chicken hadn't
consumed enough calcium to develop the 'proper' shell.)  Egg-sucking
dogs were those that had learned to intentionally crush the shell of an
egg to get to the contents.  Concurrently, such dogs might seek out
nesting sites, even if in the chicken house, and eat eggs.  A female dog
might show pups how to do the same thing.  If egg-sucking dogs couldn't
be kept away from nesting areas, the farmer could think that it was best
to get rid of the dog (in some way).  Thus, egg-sucking dogs weren't
appreciated.  [If raw egg material was fed to dogs, the material was
mixed with other items of food, to disguise the egg content.  Absolutely
no egg shell was to be in the mix.  Supposedly, raw egg improved the
dog's coat.]

Snakes would swallow an egg, crushing the shell once the egg was inside
of the snake.  Thus, the phrases that compare a person to an egg-sucking
snake.  [Unlike dogs, snakes were not seen as being "natural" farm
animals.  They were unwelcome intruders, especially if they ate small
poultry.]

As a pre-schooler, I was aware of the "egg-sucking dog" phrase many
years before I encountered related uses of the term.  Comparatively
speaking, egg-sucking dog is an innocent phrase.

Also, years before today's concern with food poisoning, it would not be
unusual to hear a person talk about punching small holes (there are
several ways to do it, without destroying the overall structure of the
shell) in both ends of an egg, and sucking the contents out of the egg.
For macho teenagers, it would be a way to show off at a party.

George

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:42:41 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: boycotting

Barry Popik writes:
 >>>>>

PERSONAL

     I have vowed never never never never to purchase any product that AOL hawks
 on those stupid, ubiquitous ads.
Today AOL hawked a product by Dragon Systems.
     I will be off the internet from Sunday, April 5th to Tuesday, April 20th.
I'm going to Syria & Jordan, where I'll see Damascus, Amman, Aleppo, Ugarit
(home of the first alphabet), Palmyra, Dura Europos (where ROTAS/SATOR squares
 were found), Mari, Jerash, Petra
(the rose-colored city), and Ebla (where I'll be researching the linguistic
 origins of Connie Eble).

 <<<<<

Jeez, Barry, don't be so rough!

And have a good trip!

                  Mark A. Mandel, Senior Linguist
             Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition
      +1 617 965-5200 : 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA
         dragon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com : http://www.dragonsys.com/
          Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:46:29 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: THIS X SUCKS

In response to Ron's well-reasoned demands for data: I should have made my basis
 of assertion clearer. I vas dere,
Sharlie. I remember what I thought the expression referred to (as does George S.
 Cole, evidently a few years older than
I). I didn't mention that as an argument, and I should have.

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Apr 1998 11:27:01 -0500
From:    Bryan Gick <bgick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAPIR.LING.YALE.EDU>
Subject: so don't I

I know I'm a couple weeks late on this one, but just in case anyone's
still interested in the "so don't I" distribution...
  My mother grew up in the small town (pop. 1500-ish) of Youngsville in NW
Pennsylvania. I spent my early years (till 1st grade) in the smaller town
of Irvine (pop. maybe a couple hundred) about 3 miles away, but did
kindergarten in Y-ville. From 2nd-9th grade we lived in the county seat
(Warren, pop. 11K or so), maybe 8 miles away from Y-ville.
  I was baffled when, having lived in the area all my short life, we moved
back to Youngsville for my 10th grade year, and I discovered that the
standard response indicating agreement was "so don't I" (as in A: "I like
ice cream." B: "Mmm. So don't I!" Also, "so didn't I," "so doesn't she,"
etc., but not "I don't too," etc.). While it had more currency among the
harder-core locals, it seemed to be pretty much standard fare for
everyone, barring those who'd moved in from outside.
  I'd never before nor have ever since heard the construction used
anywhere outside of the very immediate bounds of Youngsville. Renegade New
Englanders? Well, NW PA _is_ at a wild juncture of dialect areas, and
with lake Erie where it is, a bottleneck for New Englanders travelling
overland to the West. Still strange, tho.
Any thoughts?
Bryan

************************************
Bryan Gick - bgick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pantheon.yale.edu
Yale Department of Linguistics
and Haskins Laboratories
************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Apr 1998 10:28:26 -0600
From:    charles fritz juengling <cjuengling[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STCLOUDSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: THIS X SUCKS

>small town where we grew up (Roseburg, Oregon).
>
I grew up a couple hours north of Roseburg (Portland, Salem), although I am
a few years behind Judy.  I also felt some surprise when I first started
hearing 'suck' used all over the place.  When I was growing up, I heard
'suck' used the way  George Cole gave it, i.e. such my cock; suck my
prick; & suck this (while pointing at their crotch).   As far as the
historical record is concerned, we do not know when 'suck dick, etc.' was
first used.  I doubt that George is the first person to have heard it.  It
must have been around long before it came into print.  Given the nature of
the saying, it certainly would have been taboo and remained outside the
scope of most dictionaries and slang lists.

Fritz Juengling
Foreign Languages and Literature Department
St. Cloud State University
St. Cloud, Minnesota

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Apr 1998 12:16:23 -0600
From:    Thomas Creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>
Subject: Re: THIS X SUCKS and fellatio

Any concrete or hard evidence that fellatio is the primary underlying reference
in This X Sucks is obviously not to be found in Nexis or the Archives of the
 New
York Times or even in the citation files of well edited dictionaries.  The
expressions "To Suck Cock" and "Cocksucker" rarely, if ever appear in such
edited,printed  contexts.

The written evidence for such terms is, or was, largely to be found in washroom
epigraphy, and the best concentrated source of such evidence, although dated by
now, is Allen Walker Read's  _Classic American Graffiti_, published originally
in 1935 in a private printing of 65 copies by Allen himself, and republished by
Reinhold Aman's _Maledicta_ 1977.

sv _cock_, the following, all given with location and date of  reading of the
inscription,
occur:

"Who wants to get his cock sucked off."
"My cock is only 10 in. long so if anyone would like to suck, meet me."
"I have a big cock and I like to have it sucked."
"I suck big cocks for fun."
"Learn to spell, kid, you big cocksucker."
"Ashes to ashes and dust to dust,
   suck you cocksucker your cock can rust"
"... so if anyone would like to suck meet me . . .
  [Other handwriting] suck it yourself you big cocksucker"
"All cocksuckers register here"

Allen Wal;ker Read's inscriptions were all collected during the late 20's and
early 30's in visits to the washrooms of National Parks, railway stations, and
other public places.

Evidence of the healthy survival of _cock_ in the sense "penis" is found in
RHHDAS, which supplies citations dating from 1450 to 1920.  For  _cocksucker_,
there are
citations ranging from Farmer and Henley 1898 to the late 80's in various
sources.

All the preceding is evidence of wide, even though not often printed use of
_cock_ and _cocksucker_.

What was in the mind of the clever teenager(?) who first said "This X sucks"
cannot, of course, be known.  But the frequency and currency of _cocksucker_
 and
_to suck cock_ are so well established and widespread in 20th century male oral
(please excuse) usage that the likelihood that any other source underlies the
expression "This X sucks" is quite remote.



RonButters wrote:

> In a message dated 3/31/98 4:05:33 AM, salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu wrote:
>
> <<It wasn't what came after the word "suck" that made a difference: it was
> the elided predecessor that made sense to these kids.  THEIR context was
> the word "cocksucker" and its derivatives. >>
>
> Maybe; maybe sometimes--but how does one KNOW this? Is there any evidence
> other than anecdotal assumption and projection (usually not from the users
> themselves, but from their shocked and horrified teachers and parents)? I
> grant you that when a high school student in 1965 read Shakespeare's "Where
> the bee sucks there suck I" he or she may have associated "sucks" with
> fellatio--or nursing--or childish all-day-sucker activity. But what CONCRETE
> evidence is there that fellatio is primary?
>
> PS: My spell-checker just asked me if I would like to add "cocksucker" and
> "fellatio" to the dictionary. AOL is sooo prudish!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 1 Apr 1998 17:12:14 EST
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: THE UNIVERSE SUCKS . . .

In a message dated 4/1/98 1:15:50 PM, Tom Cresswell wrote:

<<What was in the mind of the clever teenager(?) who first said "This X sucks"
cannot, of course, be known.  But the frequency and currency of _cocksucker_
and
_to suck cock_ are so well established and widespread in 20th century male
oral
(please excuse) usage that the likelihood that any other source underlies the
expression "This X sucks" is quite remote.>>

Thanks to everyone who has written in to describe their mental associations
for early uses of THIS X SUCKS. I am particularly grateful for the remembered
THIS X SUCKS DONKEY DICKS and YOU SUCK DONKEY DICKS, which afford exactly the
kind of transitional data that illuminate the historical evolution of THIS X
SUCKS. Just to be clear, I have never contended that such phrases played no
part in the slang etymology; what I am arguing against is the assumption that
THIS X SUCKS historically derives _primarily_ or _exclusively_ from THIS X
SUCKS DICKS/COCKS. What is lacking, moreover, is written records of these
expressions from the 1960s and 1970s. I have no doubt that they could be
found; in fact, the DONKEY expressions are familiar to me from the 1950s and
1960s.

Thanks, too, to Tom Creswell for reminding us of the courageous data-recording
practices of Dr. Reed in the 1920s. I own a copy of Reed's little book, and I
know that SUCK COCK 'fellatio' was common slang in the 1920s (and probably
earlier). The Reed data is interesting, but it doesn't really speak to the
question at hand, since none of the examples that Creswell/Reed cites give us
the putative transitional phrase *THIS X SUCKS COCK/DICK. To recapitulate,
what we have historically is the following:

Stage 1 (1920s-1960s) DOES ANYONE WANT TO SUCK MY COCK?/I LIKE TO SUCK COCK as
well as THIS X SUCKS EGGS (WIND, ROPE)/ YOU SUCK EGGS (WIND, ROPE)

Stage 2 (1960s->) DOES ANYONE WANT TO SUCK MY COCK?/I LIKE TO SUCK COCK
together with THIS X SUCKS EGGS (WIND, ROPE, _DONKEY DICKS_)/ YOU SUCK EGGS
(WIND, ROPE, DONKEY DICKS_) as well as THIS X SUCKS/YOU X SUCK.

The important thing to my mind is that, when people started saying THIS X
SUCKS in the late 1960s, they did _not_ go through a period in which the full
utterance THIS X SUCKS COCK was any more in evidence than THIS X SUCKS EGGS
(WIND, ROPE). Granted that many people who heard "This sucks!" in 1969 would
have been reminded of 'fellatio': people expect to be shocked by slang, and
they fear lthe worst when they hear new expressions from young people. But it
seems to me nonetheless lexicographically simplistic and inadequate to assert,
as Tom does, that "the likelihood that any other source [than SUCK COCK/DICK]
underlies the expression 'This X sucks' is quite remote." The popularity of
fellatio to the contrary not withstanding, these other recorded (and used
slang) expressions were around both during the genesis of THIS X SUCKS and
before, and not to note them as part of the polygentic source material for
THIS X SUCKS just seems to me to do an injustice to the rich complexity of
lexicographical evolution. (Again, I would cite also the possible contribution
of the parallel expression THIS X STINKS.)

My own personal anecdote may help to clarify my point of view. My first
encounter with slang intransitive SUCK was in a note on the wall of a Duke
University rest-room (c.1968) that was known for its intellectual bent--long
philosophical arguments were often inscribed there. One day I noticed that
someone had written simply, "The Universe Sucks!" I was totally baffled. What
could this mean? I recalled my father's expression, "That sucks wind." I
recalled the expression, "That sucks eggs." I concluded that the writer did
not approve of the Universe.

I definitely knew about fellatio in 1968, and I suppose that in general I
think of fellatio as much as the next man. I knew, also, that "You suck big
donkey dicks" was a possible insult. But I honestly did not at that time
mentally connect "The Universe Sucks!" with fellatio. How could a statement
about the Universe be in any way related to the penis (of a donkey)? The
thought truly never entered my mind. (Nor has 'fellatio' ever before today
entered my mind when that funny little man from Texas talked about "the loud
sucking sound of jobs" being drained off to Mexico, though now that I think of
it I guess it sounds pretty suggestive--did Ross Perot have fellatio in mind?)

Maybe my initiation into (THIS) X SUCKS is a circumstance that Tom would
describe as "remote": Duke students sometimes wear a tee-shirt that says on
t
======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (4/1/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 30 Mar 1998 to 31 Mar 1998             98-04-01 00:00:27
This message contains more text than QuickMail can display. The entire message
 has been enclosed as a file.

There are 14 messages totalling 676 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. "Think" again
  2. Racquetball; "I (heart) NY" logogram
  3. THIS X SUCKS and the historical record
  4. cool beans
  5. The Appalachian Dialect: help wanted
  6. You're welcome! No problem! another query
  7. THIS X SUCKS and fellatio (2)
  8. Gooseberry fool references
  9. gooseberry fool/sauce
 10. CFP WECOL (2)
 11. THIS X SUCKS
 12. "The Big Apple"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 31 Mar 1998 03:54:21 EST
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: "Think" again

"And then I'd think, and think some more."
--"If I Only Had a Brain," WIZARD OF OZ.

     I haven't yet checked an IBM book (BIG BLUE is the title of one of them),
but this is perhaps the best treatment of "THINK."  It's from the NEW YORKER,
"Talk of the Town," 26 March 1949, pp. 19-20:

THINK
LEONARD LYONS printed an item a while back to the effect that employees of the
International Business Machines Corporation had just given Thomas J. Watson,
the head of the firm, the biggest THINK sign Watson had ever seen.  This
characteristic Lyons scoop-tease left many questions un answered:  How big
_is_ the THINK sign?  How big a THINK sign had Mr. Watson previously seen?
Are there other, bigger THINK signs, which Mr. Watson hasn't happened to see?
We decided we had better stop in at I.B. M. World Headquarters, at 590 Madison
Avenue (I live three blocks away--ed.), and investigate Mr. Watson's relations
with what was once a shy and fairly elusive little intransitive verb.  It
turned out that Mr. Watson was off thinking on the day of our visit, but we
were kindly taken in hand by Mr. H. T. Rowe, advertising manager of I.B.M.,
who assured us at once that there was nothing whatever to the Lyons story, and
indicated, moreover, that Mr. Watson has all the THINK signs that he finds
necessary.
     Mr. Watson has been diligently surrounding himself and his co-workers
with the THINK exhortation ever since 1911; at which time he was in charge of
sales and advertising for the National Cash Register Company.  According to a
reverent eyewitness account published long afterward in THINK, one of I.B.M.'s
house organs, it was in that historic year that Mr. Watson concluded a pep
talk to his staff by saying, "The trouble with us, the trouble with the
agents, the trouble with everybody is that we don't--"  He then turned and
wrote in blue chalk on a blackboard the single, galvanic word "THINK."  A few
days later, THINK signs blossomed out all over the plant, and when Mr. Watson
joined I.B.M., then known as the Computing-Tabulating-Recording Company, he
brought THINK along with him.
     At World Headquarters, we noticed a THINK sign on nearly every wall and
on every employee's desk.  Mr. Rowe told us that I.B.M. orders them by the
thousand from a plastics company in New Jersey.  People keeps writing in for
THINK signs, and I.B.M. is always evangelistically delighted to equip them
with some.  "We gave away nine thousand THINK signs last year," Mr. Rowe said,
with evident satisfaction.  The standard I.B.M. THINK sign comes in two
sizes--one seven inches long and three inches high, the other fourteen inches
by five.  The smaller model can be either hung on a wall or, with a special
wooden stand, set up on a desk.  The word "THINK" is printed in Cheltenham
Bold capitals, black on a white background.  We asked Mr. Rowe if executives
are issued gold or platinum signs, and he said that, on the contrary, complete
democracy has always prevailed in this regard.  To prove his point, he led us
on tiptoe into Mr. Watson's office, and there, sure enough, we saw two plain
old democratic THINK signs hanging on the wall and another one on his desk.
     Mr. Rwoe's desk happens to boast a THINK sign of Lucite and silver.  This
is merely a sample prepared by a manufacturer who had hoped to take on the
THINK-sign contract, Mr. Rowe explained.  "No deal," he added.  "People come
in here with all sorts of THINK schemes, of course.  They want to put THINK on
bookends, paperweights, lapel pins, rings, bill clips, automobile-fender
reflectors, wallets, blotters--everything.  (Sounds like the Big Apple--ed.)
We discourage such ideas."  Besides the regulat THINK signs, I.B.M. has
several large THINK banners, which are hung behind the speakers' table at
company banquets.  The magic word also appears on the riser of the top step
leading into the lobby of the I.B.M. school, at Endicott, New York; the
inscriptions on the other risers are, in descending order, "OBSERVE,"
"DISCUSS," "LISTEN," and "READ."  "THINK" is stamped in gold on the leather
covers of pocket notebooks, called THINK books, that are distributed free to
employees of I.B.M. and, like the signs, to anyone who writes in for them.
Approximately a hundred thousand THINK books were handed out last year.  THINK
books and THINK signs have been printed in foreign languages by I.B.M.'s
offices in seventy-nine countries, but World Headquarters doesn't know just
how the word looks in Estonian, say, or Iraqi.  I.B.M. and Mr. Watson have,
naturally, no legal claims on THINK, and in the last couple of years the local
Board of Transportation has taken to painting the word in big red letters here
and there in subway stations around town.  The favorite spot appears to be the
doors that give access to sump pumps.  Heaven, Mr. Rowe observes, knows why.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 31 Mar 1998 03:54:36 EST
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Racquetball; "I (heart) NY" logogram

RACQUETBALL

     I found this in Newsday, Sunday, 29 March 1998, pg. C27, col. 5:

     _OBIT: Racquetball Founder, J. Sobek._  Joseph Sobek, the former tennis
pro who invented racquetball in the early 1950s at a YMCA and was the first
inductee into the sport's hall of fame (Where is that?  Gotta check Dickson's
halls-of-fame book--ed.), has died.  He was 79.  Sobek died of congential
heart disease Friday at Greenwich (Conn.) Hospital.

     The web site www.usoc.org/sports/az_3_24_1.html has:

     Racquetball was invented by Joe Sobek in 1949 on a Connecticut handball
court.  Seeking a game with fast pace that was easy to learn, Sobek designed
the first short strung paddle, devised rules combining the basics of handball
and squash, and named his modification "paddle rackets."  His experiment was
an overnight success, the sport caught on quickly and has since evolved into
racquetball as we know it today.

     OED has "racquetball, orig U. S., Also racquet ball."  The first citation
is from 1972--twenty-three years after the game was invented!  Joe Sobek is
never mentioned!
     Obviously, we can do better on this Americanism.  The easy way to have
done this was to have written to Joe Sobek and just asked him.  I'm sure he
kept newspaper clippings somewhere.
     The thing for dictionary-makers to do now is to write to whatever family
members honored him and ask for the same information.  We can also write to
the hall of fame.
     If I had time, I'd do "racquetball" and "hacky sack" lingo for American
Speech.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
HEART=LOVE LOGOGRAM

     AMERICAN SPEECH, winter 1985, vol. 60, no. 4, pp. 366-367, has "The
Symbol (heart)."  "I (heart) New York" is the first example given.
     It's not a great AS note.  It's mentioned that the heart sign is on
playing cards, but historical citations aren't provided.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
PERSONAL

     I have vowed never never never never to purchase any product that AOL
hawks on those stupid, ubiquitous ads.  Today AOL hawked a product by Dragon
Systems.
     I will be off the internet from Sunday, April 5th to Tuesday, April 20th.
I'm going to Syria & Jordan, where I'll see Damascus, Amman, Aleppo, Ugarit
(home of the first alphabet), Palmyra, Dura Europos (where ROTAS/SATOR squares
were found), Mari, Jerash, Petra (the rose-colored city), and Ebla (where I'll
be researching the linguistic origins of Connie Eble).

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 31 Mar 1998 03:07:02 -0600
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: THIS X SUCKS and the historical record

RonButters wrote:

>       Such a look at the "historical record" to date has shown me amazingly
> little in the way of concrete examples of an "off-color" object for SUCK at
> the time of the emergence of objectless SUCK in American slang--unless one
> hypothesizes that TIT or TEAT is "off-color" and that the phrase SUCK THE
 HIND
> TEAT is the "origin" of objectless SUCK.
>       It would be helpful if Mandel (and anyone else who would care to
> contribute) would make explicit just which potential off-color direct object
> they feel intuitively must (have) come after SUCK in the deep-
> structure/historical evolution of objectless SUCK. I would be delighted if
> Mandel and others would share with me any _data_ they may have about this.

OK, I guess I'll venture some sort of data.  When I starting hearing the
term in common use among teenagers (high school and college kids,
perhaps back in the 1960s), it was NOT in the context of "sucking hind
tit".  That's an expression that I have used since I don't remember
when, but 1960s kids just didn't pick up on it.  That is, if they
understood what I meant at all.

It wasn't what came after the word "suck" that made a difference: it was
the elided predecessor that made sense to these kids.  THEIR context was
the word "cocksucker" and its derivatives.  Civil rights and Women's Lib
and all that were all very well, but gays were still fair game for open
insult.

That was still true at my kids' high school in the early to middle
1980s.  Common terms for groups at the school included "band fags", for
those in the band; "lesbian thespians" for those who joined theater
productions; etc.

"Sucks", because of its usually unspoken association with
"cocksucking", did carry overtones of taboo, off-color, unacceptable
speech.  As I remember underground teenager publications in my neck of
the woods at the time, there was much more interest in printing the
"ultimate unprintable", and a common word for excrement, than there was
to dwell on words associated with homosexual activities.  The objectless
"sucks", however, was used for shock value.  For teenagers, the only
shocking context for that word at the time was the one I suggest.


--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

P.S.: Once more, this is talk about talk, and shouldn't embarass people
in ADS.  Nonetheless,  I remember George Trager's glee with his own
article associating the word "fuck" with Latin "facere", to do or to
make.  He kept citing it for decades after its  publication, which I
recall seeing in a journal he was editing when the article appeared.
(I'm convinced the article was wrong.  What I never figured out was
whether George was offering a serious etimology, or was just kidding
people who, in his words, "couldn't say shit if they had a mouthful of
it".)

Maybe we can talk seriously about words that aren't used in polite
society.  Still, we usually try to pass as members of polite society,
and we often have hangups about daring to be serious about such
off-color topics.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 31 Mar 1998 09:45:59 +0000
From:    Jim Rader <jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: Re: cool beans

I tried to run a quick Nexis search on this collocation, but the
result was hundreds of recipes that tell you to cool the beans, so I
restricted the search to earlier years.  The first cite I could find was

Washington Post, Apr. 16, 1992, Maryland Weekly (Montgomery), p. M1
(byline Donna Niewiarowski)
"Students Mad About Science" --
In their informal speech words such as "hysteresis,"
"micromanipulator" and "planetesimal" collide with "cool beans,"
"Yesss!", and "all right, dude."

In the St. Petersburg (FL) Times, Feb. 3, 1993, the personality files
of the members of a local rock band used "cool beans" as a heading
for the things or people that the members held in particular favor.

Also the following from _Advertising Age_, Aug. 23, 1993, p. 5-6:
Women 18 to 24 are apt to favor "cool beans," while teen boys say
"dope" to convey the awesomeness of something. (byline Adrienne Ward
Fawcett)

Our own files have only one cite thus far, from _Rolling Stone_,
Issue 680, Apr. 21, 1994, "Smashing Pumpkins," by Chris Mundy:
"I just want some positive vibes," explains Iha [sic], who seems to be doing
his part for the cause by substituting the phrase _cool beans_ for
any and all affirmative answers (sample question:  "Hey, James, wanna
get a cup of coffee?"  Answer:  "Cool beans"). [p. 46]

An earlier date for the collocation is in Connie Eble's _Slang &
Sociability_, in the "Select Glossary of Student Slang":
_cool beans!_:  expression of approval, admiration {19]87.

Ms. Eble, by the way, bashes Merriam-Webster's labeling of slang (p.
23), comparing it unfavorably with the labeling in American Heritage and
Random House dictionaries.  I am not going to attempt to outline or
defend Merriam's slang labeling practices--for which in any event I
am not responsible in toto or individually--but I sure don't agree
with her statement that "the absence of a [slang] label implies that
the word or phrase belongs to the general unremarkable vocabulary of
English, whose use conveys no social implication."  Aren't there a
variety of colloquial speech registers between full-blown slang and
"general unremarkable vocabulary"?  Are _put down_ or _macho_ or
_jock_ or _schlep_--which she calls out for their lack of labeling in
the Tenth Collegiate, slang, or just informal, or in the case of
_macho_, not even informal?  Just my opinion.

Jim Rader

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 31 Mar 1998 10:36:19 -0600
From:    Joan Houston Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Appalachian Dialect: help wanted

I have responded privately to Ms. Joplin of The Living Theatre Company in
Chicago, but I also wanted to remind ADS members that copies of audiotapes
from DARE's extensive collection of recordings (made between 1965 and 1970)
may be purchased ($6.00 per side) as long as users are willing to agree to
the following conditions:

1) Tapes are for scholarly use only.
2) Identities of informants must be kept confidential.
3) Tapes may not be used for commercial purposes.
4) Tapes may not be broadcast.
5) Tapes may not be duplicated.
(Transcription of segments of the tapes for scholarly analysis is
permitted.)

Our index of subject categories is still in progress, but for those who are
interested in hearing the speech of a particular location, it is possible to
select tapes by looking at the Informant list in the front matter of Volume
I, where communities are named, informants are described, and presence or
absence of a taperecording is recorded in the last column.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:24:28 EST
From:    AAllan <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: You're welcome! No problem! another query

Nathan Cobb of the Boston Globe wonders about what seems to be a decline of
the formerly standard response to "Thank you" - the apparent edging out of
"You're welcome" by "No problem!" among others. If you have facts or reasons
for this change, please let him know at:
cobb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]globe.com
or (617) 929-2961
- Allan Metcalf

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 31 Mar 1998 11:42:55 EST
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: THIS X SUCKS and fellatio

In a message dated 3/31/98 4:05:33 AM, salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu wrote:

<<It wasn't what came after the word "suck" that made a difference: it was
the elided predecessor that made sense to these kids.  THEIR context was
the word "cocksucker" and its derivatives. >>

Maybe; maybe sometimes--but how does one KNOW this? Is there any evidence
other than anecdotal assumption and projection (usually not from the users
themselves, but from their shocked and horrified teachers and parents)? I
grant you that when a high school student in 1965 read Shakespeare's "Where
the bee sucks there suck I" he or she may have associated "sucks" with
fellatio--or nursing--or childish all-day-sucker activity. But what CONCRETE
evidence is there that fellatio is primary?

PS: My spell-checker just asked me if I would like to add "cocksucker" and
"fellatio" to the dictionary. AOL is sooo prudish!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 31 Mar 1998 12:08:27 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: THIS X SUCKS and fellatio

At 11:42 AM -0500 3/31/98, RonButters wrote (inter alia):
>...
>PS: My spell-checker just asked me if I would like to add "cocksucker" and
>"fellatio" to the dictionary. AOL is sooo prudish!

On the other hand, I discovered by chance a couple of years ago that if you
sic the spell-check installed on Microsoft Word 4 on an Italian text, it
will inform you that when your document contains the word "velluto" (=
'velvet'), you must have really intended to type "fellatio".  Someone
really ought to write a psychosemantic study of the spell-checker
translation algorithm.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 31 Mar 1998 13:26:59 -0600
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Gooseberry fool references

When I asked her, my wife said "Fool?  That's some old-fashioned fruit
dish.  My grandfather used to talk about it, summertimes up at the
lake."  Then Peggy went to her cookbook collection, on the theory that
non-dictionary sources might be more help in running down the word in
this sense.  She found two semi-references.

First, Auguste Escoffier, in his "Ma cuisine" (French original, 1934;
English translation, 1965), has a recipe for "sauce groseilles, dite
'groseilles a maquereau'". The English edition translates this as
"gooseberry sauce, particularly suitable for grilled or boiled
mackerel."  Not much help.  (Escoffier also gives recipes for a couple
of 'gelees de groseilles', which use "redcurrants and whitecurrants",
with an optional six ounces of raspberries per four pounds of currants.
That doesn't sound like gooseberries to me.)

Peggy went to Escoffier because of a memory quirk that suggested some
kind of relationship between the "fool" of "gooseberry fool" and some
French word or another.  Sure enough, in the "Woman's Day Encyclopedia
of Cooking", 2nd edn., 1966, Vol. 5, p.714, she found this:

        "FOOL  --  This surprising word describes a very old but still popular
English fruit dessert.  It is based on a fruit puree (any soft fruit,
especially berries, will do).  The fruit is cooked with very little
water, sweetened to taste, strained, and chilled.  Just before serving,
chilled whipped cream is added to the fruit puree, in the proportion of
two parts whipped cream to one part fruit.  The fool is served in
sherbet glasses. [paragraph] Fool is one of the most delicious of summer
desserts.  Where the name comes from is obscure, but it may have been
derived from the French "fol", or 'mad', and perhaps refers to the fact
that the fruit is all mixed up."

(There follows a recipe to illustrate -- which just happens to be for
gooseberry fool.)

The supposition of a French source sounds like a folk etymology to me,
particularly since no source is cited.

We'll check other cookbook sources later.  (There are incredible numbers
of cookbooks around our house, partly because Peggy used to co-host a
cooking show on our local broadcast service for the blind.)

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern i
======================================================================


From: Automatic digest processor (3/31/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 29 Mar 1998 to 30 Mar 1998             98-03-31 00:00:19
There are 10 messages totalling 375 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. "Cool beans!" (3)
  2. gooseberry fool
  3. subscription
  4. THIS X SUCKS and the historical record
  5. Unparliamentary Language
  6. Mea culpa
  7. The Appalachian Dialect: help wanted
  8. Another Appalachian Inquiry

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Mar 1998 00:16:42 -0600
From:    Tom Head <tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETDOOR.COM>
Subject: Re: "Cool beans!"

On Sun, 29 Mar 1998, Gerald Cohen wrote:

>     Does anyone have any idea about the origin of this expression? In
> particular, why "beans"?

Perhaps it's from the Spanish "bien" ("good")?

Tom Head
tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netdoor.com
http://www2.netdoor.com/~tlh

"This is the exalted melancholy of our fate, that every 'Thou' in
our world must become an 'It'."
                                        -- Martin Buber

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Mar 1998 08:42:43 -0500
From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Cool beans!"

>X-From_: felle001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu  Sun Mar 29 21:54:22 1998
>Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 21:54:18 -0600 (CST)
>From: Anna M Fellegy <felle001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu>
>To: Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu>
>Subject: Re: "Cool beans!"
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>
>I have heard "cool beans" since the late 70s in Minnesota but never in
>response to the question "how are you." Here it means "great" or "that's
>cool." For instance:
>
>Statement: The Gophers won the NIT.
>Response: Cool beans!
>
>No clue as to the origin, however.
>
>Anna Fellegy
>Dept. of English
>University of Minnesota
>
>On Sun, 29 Mar 1998, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>
>>    I was recently asked about a teenage slang expression that I had never
>> previously heard: "Cool beans!" Several of my students are familiar with it
>> and agree it's been around for at least 8 years.  They regard it as a
>> synonym of "Cool!"
>>
>>    I don't find this expression in RHHDAS, but it appears in Tom Dalzell's
>> _Flappers 2 Rappers_, (subtitle): _American Youth Slang_, p.178:  "The
>> 1970s and 1980s... COOL BEANS!--I'm doing great! [Then in italics] This
>> expression was always used as a response to the question, "How are you?"
>> regardless of the form in which the question was asked."
>>
>>     Does anyone have any idea about the origin of this expression? In
>> particular, why "beans"?
>>
>> --Gerald Cohen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu
>>
>
   My thanks to Ms. Fellegy for this response.



gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Mar 1998 10:33:53 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: gooseberry fool

Barry Popik writes:
>>>>>
GOOSEBERRY

     The RHHDAS has several entries for "gooseberry."  For the meaning "a fool,"
 the earliest date is 1890.  Other entries
date from 1837.
<<<<<

What about "gooseberry fool"? This is a phrase I remember reading quite often in
 I don't remember what; grandmother's
or elderly neighbor's or somebody's gooseberry fool. From context it was
 evidently a food, and in _American Heritage
Dict._, 3rd edn., s.v. "fool", #6, I find:

        A dessert made from stewed or pureed fruit mixed with cream or custard
 and served cold.

Is there a connection here?

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Mar 1998 09:07:23 -0700
From:    Kat Rose <Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPOT.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: Re: subscription

>Please tell me how I can stop my subscription to the list.
>Chris Corcoran
---------------------
Chris: When you first subscribed, you should have received a "welcome"
message. People sometimes delete this accidentally, though, so I've copied
the pertinent sections below. Hope this helps.  Kat Rose
---------------------
Your subscription to  the ADS-L list (American Dialect  Society) has been
accepted....

To send  a message to  all the people  currently subscribed to  the list,
just send mail  to ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU....All commands must  be sent  to
the "LISTSERV address", LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU  (or
LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET)....You may leave the  list at any time by sending  a
"SIGNOFF ADS-L" command to LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU  (or
LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET) [That is, put one of the listserve addresses on the
"To" line, nothing in the subject line, and the command ONLY in the body of
the message. The computer reads this directly; it can't read or process the
command if other text is there.]....For more information about
subscription options, send a "QUERY ADS-L" command to
LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (or LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET)....

More  information on  LISTSERV  commands  can be  found  in the  LISTSERV
reference card, which  you can  retrieve  by sending  an "INFO  REFCARD"
command to LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (or LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET).
---------------------
Hope this helps.

[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]>-->---
Kat Rose     Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]spot.Colorado.edu  (Boulder)
My words, my rights, my responsibility

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:10:33 EST
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: THIS X SUCKS and the historical record

In a message dated 3/26/98 10:36:59 AM, M. Mandel wrote:

1.
<<And what IS "in the historical record"? . . . What got written and
published. IMHO the "off-color object" was definitely in the minds of the
beholder *and the user* at the time when the objectless verb became popular,
which was probably part of its shock value. A generation has elapsed --
several generations of teenagers -- and if the implied object and its
connotations have faded in transition, we should neither be surprised nor
conclude that they were never there.>>

Mandel raises a fundamental problem for lexicographers: should we draw our
conclusions conservatively from "the historical record," or should we draw our
conclusions from our own intuitions about what "must" have been the case
("IMHO")? Intuition may often be a good starting place for a scientific
hypothesis, but one usually does not stop there. (Of course, in the special
case of word meanings, this raises a second sort of dilemma for the
lexicographer: at what point does folk meaning become meaning?)

The historical record is not so unreliable as Mandel implies: one needs to
look beyond widely disseminated print sources--at coterie literature, student
humor magazines, published letters, bad movies--any place that slang might be
used with less censorship than in newspapers and magazines. One can also look
(with caution) at contemporaneous commentary--the semiorthoepic commentaries
of big-city newspaper columnists and campus humor magazines, for example.
      Such a look at the "historical record" to date has shown me amazingly
little in the way of concrete examples of an "off-color" object for SUCK at
the time of the emergence of objectless SUCK in American slang--unless one
hypothesizes that TIT or TEAT is "off-color" and that the phrase SUCK THE HIND
TEAT is the "origin" of objectless SUCK.
      It would be helpful if Mandel (and anyone else who would care to
contribute) would make explicit just which potential off-color direct object
they feel intuitively must (have) come after SUCK in the deep-
structure/historical evolution of objectless SUCK. I would be delighted if
Mandel and others would share with me any _data_ they may have about this.

2.
<<. . . the expression "suck" without d.o. originated, or at least spread to
cover the country, ex oribus teenagers, at a time when "suck" with d.o.s such
as [eggs, rope, tit] was obsolete or obsolescent in colloquial speech with any
meaning at all like the current one (which I would express as "be bad, be of
poor quality, be undesirable, be despicable; [of an event or situation] be
unfortunate").>>

This just ain't so. These expressions are alive today, though not popular in
mainstream-culture adolescent speech. They were similarly alive and well
thirty years ago. They also mean 'be bad, be of poor quality, be undesirable,
be despicable; [of an event or situation] be unfortunate'.
     I should perhaps make it clear that I am NOT arguing that objectless SUCK
could have no other "source" or "meaning" than SUCK EGGS, SUCK ROPE, SUCK
WIND, SUCK THE HIND TIT, etc. What I argue is rather that these are the
linguistic models that were overt in the language at the time of the emergence
of objectless SUCK; that they, too, were expressions of disapprobation and
that SUCK has never been a very "nice" word; and that "SUCK + [any direct
object that you might imagine]"--having no overt linguistic object to sustain
it and no historical record --can only be a nonce creation (and reflection) of
the mind of the imaginer. Indeed, many (most) speakers surely intend(ed) _no_
explicit direct object _whatever_ (any more than THIS X STINKS implies--or
originally implied--a particular source of the implied unpleasant aroma).
Certainly, some native speakers of the language from time to time will imagine
(did imagine) the same direct object that Mandel imagines (whatever that is).
     IMHO the lexicographer needs to be cautious about sweeping assumptions
that some intuitively clear single lexicosemantic source "must" have been in
the minds of "the" American adolescents who (putatively) began to use SUCK
without a direct object as a term of disapprobation at about the same time
that SUCK with a frozen direct object was becoming less frequent. THIS X SUCKS
(paralleling--and perhaps by parallelism even to  some extent deriving
historically from--older THIS X STINKS) is--and was--a slang term of
disapproval. Just what the speaker may be imagining as being sucked (or
causing the stink)--if anything--varies (and varied) with context.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:01:25 +1000
From:    Ross Chambers <maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Unparliamentary Language

I'm trying an alternative setting (MIME compliant) while awaiting a
reply regarding odd e-mail characters from the ADS-L list owners,
forgive me if this procedure is ineffectual.


Subscribers may find this specialised list of banned words, from the
Sydney Morning Herald, of interest:

"One of the world's smaller and more obscure societies--The Society of
Clerks-at-the-Table in Commonwealth Parliaments--regularly publishes a
list of expressions ruled unparliamentary. These include, from Canada,
gerbils, scabs, wounded hyena, bums, half-wit, jackass, bandits, rats,
crooks--and my own favourite (the writer is an ex MP: Gordon Bilney,
rc), the euphonious hurluberlu, Quebecois for airhead.

New Zealand contributes Neanderthal, laboratory rats, (suffering from)
mad cow disease, quisling, racist prick, shonky, fat Mexican, irrelevant
dork and fishwife, while from India come mad dog, bully and brute,
thief, dirty fellow, crooks, sewer-like minds, sinners, lunatic, rascals
and, intriguingly, masturbation.

The mother of parliaments is tame by comparison, though lickspittle,
shysters and imbeciles are up there, and Baroness Bonkers in honourable
mention class."

The Australian Federal Parliament Speaker recently spent some time at
our expense disallowing "web of deceit" as unparliamentary, while
admitting "deceitful" in the speech in response. It's all in the
phrasing!

Kind regards - Ross Chambers

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Mar 1998 11:07:14 -0700
From:    Kat Rose <Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPOT.COLORADO.EDU>
Subject: Mea culpa

Apologies, list members, for sending to the entire list a note intended for
Chris Corcoran alone. The brain, she short circuits now and again.

[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]>-->---
Kat Rose     Kat.Rose[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]spot.Colorado.edu  (Boulder)
My words, my rights, my responsibility

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Mar 1998 14:52:19 EST
From:    AAllan <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: The Appalachian Dialect: help wanted

If you can help with the following, please send a message to Ms. Joplin at:
Chief820[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com
since she's not on ADS-L. But it would be interesting to have responses on
ADS-L too.
- Allan Metcalf

>I am a founding member of The Living Theatre Company in Chicago.  In May we
will
>mount the Chicago premeir of The Love Talker, a one-act that takes place in
the
>Clinch Mountains, Virginia.  We want very much to be authentic in our speech
patterns
>and dialects.  If you could provide any information or offer suggestions of
where
>we might find assistance in learning an Appalachian dialect it would be
greatly
>appreciated.  Thank you so much for your time and help.
>
>Jennifer Joplin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Mar 1998 17:28:58 EST
From:    AAllan <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Another Appalachian Inquiry

This just in, shortly after the previous request. The inquirer is not on ADS-
L, so again a direct reply is needed.
- Allan Metcalf

>I am a graduate student of English and German Linguistics at
>the Humboldt University in Berlin. Currently I am writing my master's
>thesis on regional and social varieties of Ozark and Appalachian
>English.
>
>Because I am unable to conduct research in the USA I would appreciate
>as much information as is available on this subject. I am especially
>interested in recent publications of the American Dialect Society
>available on the Internet.
>
>If you unable to provide me with this information I would be grateful
>if you would refer other colleagues to me who are conducting similar
>research and who might be interested in sharing their work.
>
>My e-mail address is h0444qzn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]student.hu-berlin.de
>
>Thank you in advance for your help.
>
>Yours sincerely,
>
>Anastasiya Yegupova

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 30 Mar 1998 21:44:40 -0500
From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
Subject: Re: "Cool beans!"

  Here's another reference for the teenage exclamation "Cool beans!":
      Paul Dickson: _Slang_, (subtitle) _The Authoritative Topic-By-Topic
Dictionary of American Lingoes From All Walks Of Life_, NY: Simon &
Schuster. revised edition, 1998. --p.388 says:
       "COOL BEANS. (Merriam-Webster. Midwest)  Great, very pleasing."

    Incidentally, _Current Slang_ (a publication of the University of South
Dakota) Cumulation of vols. 3-4 (1968-1970), edited by Stephen Dill and
Donald Bebeau, does not mention COOL BEANS but does give     "BEANS, n.
Money.--College students, both sexes, Kansas." -----Might "cool beans"
originally have referred to cold cash?  This is only a guess.

--Gerald Cohen



gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Mar 1998 to 30 Mar 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/30/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 28 Mar 1998 to 29 Mar 1998             98-03-30 00:00:14
There are 11 messages totalling 426 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Windy City; Gooseberry; Greasers; Lynch; O. K.; Shyster
  2. Think Different (3)
  3. eddress=email address (3)
  4. Lynch
  5. RE>Re: Think Different (2)
  6. "Cool beans!"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 29 Mar 1998 01:56:14 EST
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Windy City; Gooseberry; Greasers; Lynch; O. K.; Shyster

     I went to the Library of Congress on one of my famous Saturday sleep-
four-hours-on-a-Greyhound-bus runs.  I was particularly looking for "Windy
City," "O.K.," and "shyster."  I was successful on one of the three.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
GOOSEBERRY

     The RHHDAS has several entries for "gooseberry."  For the meaning "a
fool," the earliest date is 1890.  Other entries date from 1837.
     This (I was really looking for--never mind!) is from the ILLINOIS
ADVOCATE (Vandalia, Ill.), 4 February 1835, pg. 1, col. 5:

     _Berry-ology_.--At Shad_berry_, Massachusetts, Mr. Nehemiah Black _berry_
was married, on the 10th ult. to Miss Catharine Elder_berry_, of Dan_bury_, by
the Rev. Mr. Cran_berry_.  We hope none of their descendants will ever prove
to be _gooseberrys_.--_N. Y. Sun_.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
GREASERS

      The movie GREASE is being re-released.  I found several "greasers" in
1846 and 1847 (while looking for "shyster").  The RHHDAS has one 1836 cite
before 1846.

1 December 1846, CHICAGO DEMOCRAT, pg. 2, col. 4.
     "GOV. KEARNEY'S ADDRESS TO THE SANTA FE-IANS.  Yellow skins, Greasers, or
what you call yourselves--Mexicans you have ceased to be..."

18 May 1847, CHICAGO DEMOCRAT, pg. 2, col. 2.
     A poem has the lines "He lays the'Greasers' on quite tasty" and "The
'Greasers' run with a wild stampede."  A letter in the same column reads, "I
was within ten steps of the '_greasers_,' as the Mexicans are called..."

23 January 1847, CHICAGO DEMOCRAT, pg. 4, col. 3.
     Seven kinds of Mexican (or "Greaser") are shown in _The Mixed Breeds of
Mexico_:
1. Europeans, called Chapetores or Gopuchins.
2. Creoles, or native whites of European extraction.
3. Mestizzos, the offspring of whites and Indians.
4. Mulattoes, the offspring of whites and negroes, with their various
modifications.
5. Aboriginal Indians, a lazy, good natured race, constituting a third of the
population.
6. African negroes, and their descendants, considered as good as the best in
that country.
7. Zamboes, or Chinoes, the offspring of negroes and Indians, about the
meanest race on God's earth.  (Language in original--ed.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
LYNCH LAW

     The RHHDAS has 1835 as the earliest cite and mentions a paper by Mitford
Mathews; the OED has earlier citations and a key paper was written by ALBERT
Matthews.
     In the ILLINOIS ADVOCATE (Vandalia, Ill.) of 1835, "lynch" was cited from
the Boston Daily Advertiser, the Boston Post, and the Boston Statesman.  The
Boston newspapers of October-December 1835 should help us with a mother lode,
but that's a project for a Boston trip of another day.
    AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS has "lynch law" as the word-of-the-year for 1780.
On page 85, it's written that "lynchings took place in every part of the
country except New England."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
O.K.

     FIRST APPROACH:  I tried a new approach to "O.K.," but it was not
successful.  I looked up the Boston Post (I had previously checked the Boston
Globe and Boston Transcript in the NYPL) for February-June 1875 (the "spelling
bee" year).  I found many spelling "matches"--and a "Spelling Bee" on 22 March
1875, pg. 1, col. 9--but no references to Andrew Jackson's spelling or "O. K."
(as in the Pittsburgh article).
    SECOND APPROACH:  There was a Sunday question and answers column that ran
in the Louisville Courier-Journal.  I've gone through many years of many such
columns (in the Brooklyn Eagle, the NY Sun, the Boston Transcript, the San
Francisco Call) and have found many, many unhelpful "O. K." queries.
Louisville C-J editor Henry Watterson probably knew Boston Post editor Charles
Gordon Greene, so the Louisville "O. K." Q&A might be different.  However, the
NYPL doesn't have the Louisville Courier-Journal, and my search time in DC is
very limited.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
SHYSTER

     There's a "shyster" in the CHICAGO DEMOCRAT, but I haven't found it.
     To follow up on the "shyster" citation posted here recently, I requested
the DEMOCRAT from 1846-1849.  The Library of Congress didn't have it on film,
and had no volumes at all from 1848-1849.  I read through what it had from
October 1846-November 1847.
    Several articles made fun of lawyers (13 October 1846, pg. 3, col. 3 is an
example), but the DEMOCRAT called them "pettifoggers" at this time.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
WINDY CITY

    Our first citation is now the LOUISVILLE COURIER-JOURNAL, 10 January 1886,
pg. 4, col. 5:

    THE WINDY CITY.
All Kinds of Weather Render Life
    Disagreeable in Chicago.
    CHICAGO, Jan. 9.--A strong wind is blowing throughout Northern Illinois,
drifting the snow badly, but the cold is not so intense as that which has
prevailed West and North.  (...)

     The story below from Boston is headed "ON THE WATER."
     This is, perhaps, Henry Watterson's and the Louisville Courier-Journal's
first use of "Windy City"--from a January 1886 windstorm.  I have to check
more issues of the newspaper and to recheck the storm in the Chicago papers,
but this could be it.
      It made my day.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:18:35 -0500
From:    "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Think Different

Methinks Don doth think rightly.

dInIs

>> it can be blamed for the widespread loss of
>>abverbial inflection that is occurring in English.
>
>Au contraire.  The opposite is happening.  Two or three generations ago,
>when traditional/historical grammar was taught and studied in English
>departments, the adjectival complement was not thought anathema to logical
>thinking.  People could even slice their onions thin for their hamburgers.
>Now, the people who feel badly about others' grammar insist that one must
>slice onions thinly, in a thin manner, if one wants them to come out thin.
>Or is it come out thinly?  Yes, I do mean that they feel badly.  "Think
>different" has an adjectival complement, not an adverbial qualifier.
>"Think differently" has an adverb.
>
>DMLance

Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 29 Mar 1998 09:50:09 -0500
From:    "Patrick L. Courts" <courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AIT.FREDONIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Think Different

I've found the discussion interesting.  Although I am not a linguist, I've
taught a considerable amt. of writing, among other things.  And I have a
very strict rule that my students must apply to anything they write: they
must write what they think clearly and effectively.  I don't care what
rules they follow or break to do this, and I actually enjoy those who think
different and sometimes ever write different

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 29 Mar 1998 12:46:01 -0600
From:    "Albert E. Krahn" <krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US>
Subject: eddress=email address

This is from a web page:

"If you . . . wish to add your name to this page,
please write to . . . at the eddress below."

Is this new, or has it been around for awhile?
It seems to fulfill a need.
akra

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 29 Mar 1998 14:45:35 EST
From:    GarethB2 <GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: eddress=email address

Eddress (or "edress" or "e-dress") has been around for at least three and a
half years. I first heard it used by John Plunkett, art director for Wired. It
was also submitted to my Jargon Watch column in early February, 1995. I'm
pretty sure John's usage pre-dates that.

Gareth

--------------------------------------------------
Gareth Branwyn
garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]earthlink.net, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/

Contributing editor, Wired
Co-author _Happy Mutant Handbook_ , _Internet Power Toolkit_
Author, _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 29 Mar 1998 14:48:58 EST
From:    GarethB2 <GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: eddress=email address

Almost forget: The other convention that I've seen for email address is
"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ddress."

Gareth

--------------------------------------------------
Gareth Branwyn
garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]earthlink.net, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/

Contributing editor, Wired
Co-author _Happy Mutant Handbook_ , _Internet Power Toolkit_
Author, _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 29 Mar 1998 16:43:26 -0500
From:    "Jeutonne P. Brewer" <jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: Think Different

Maybe Apple is just trying to find out if
Big Brother is still out there.

Jeutonne Brewer


**********************************************
Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor
Department of English
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
Greensboro, NC 27412
email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu
URL:   http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer
***********************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 29 Mar 1998 17:28:02 EST
From:    AAllan <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Lynch

The exact origin of "lynch" has been unclear.

Not only the date, but the person for whom "lynch law" was named is in
dispute. You'll find some discussion of this in McDavid's revision of
Mencken's _American Language_ (1963), pp. 130-131.

The _Dictionary of Americanisms_ has excerpts from a 1780 agreement
establishing what later came to be known as "Lynch's law." It has a 1782
letter using the phrase "Lynchs Law." Then there are the citations Barry
mentioned.

- Allan Metcalf

(from Barry Popik:)
LYNCH LAW

     The RHHDAS has 1835 as the earliest cite and mentions a paper by Mitford
Mathews; the OED has earlier citations and a key paper was written by ALBERT
Matthews.
     In the ILLINOIS ADVOCATE (Vandalia, Ill.) of 1835, "lynch" was cited from
the Boston Daily Advertiser, the Boston Post, and the Boston Statesman.  The
Boston newspapers of October-December 1835 should help us with a mother lode,
but that's a project for a Boston trip of another day.
    AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS has "lynch law" as the word-of-the-year for 1780.
On page 85, it's written that "lynchings took place in every part of the
country except New England."

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 29 Mar 1998 17:28:57 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: RE>Re: Think Different

The adjective/adverb debate is not off-topic at all, but we need to keep
our perspective straight.  First of all, ad agencies neither influence
usage (goodly or badly) nor do they "break grammar rules" and "get away
with their brazen attempts to cover grammatical errors"--they simply do
what ordinary people in large measure do, and nobody notices but us.
"Winstons taste good like a cigarette should" may have shocked a few of us
in the '50s (myself included, as a prescriptivist high schooler who always
corrected her parents' speech--shame on me), but it hardly shaped a
long-coming change from conjunctive 'as' to 'like'; and writers to ADS
recently have acknowledged that they now accept 'like'.  Finally, one
writer said he urges students to "think different [adj?] and write
different [adv]."  An MA student of mine from Pittsburgh regularly omitted
the -ly (as most people do in this area) until it was called to his
attention during his PhD studies at Penn (but not by Labov, who directed
his dissertation).  He had, of course, never noticed the "omission" before.
 Why didn't I "correct" it when I had him captive for two years?  Of course
I did, for formal writing; but that hardly changed his underlying usage
system.


At 01:08 PM 3/28/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I love the slogan "Think Different", the campaign, the product, and pretty
much agree with Greg's analysis of acceptability, but I blame the folks at
Chiat/Day for the missing "ly."
>
>Folks at Chiat/Day, like advertising people everywhere, prefer to think of
themselves as exceptional beings who break rules for the betterment of
society. Sometimes they do it because they get a kick out of it, like
shoplifting when you're 12 or driving way too fast or crossing in the
middle of the street against traffic.
>
>The ad agency I work for recently helped Carvel, an ice cream company
located primarily in the northeast, launch a campaign for a small ice cream
cake designed to celebrate life's smaller successes. My peers decided to
call it "Little Love" but they wanted something a little more unique. So,
it was put up for a vote as to whether it would be "Li'l Love" or "Lil'Love."
>
>Naturally, the horrendous name "Lil'Love" is now plastered across
television, newspapers, radio, point of purchase displays and product
packaging. Nobody can tell me if there is a point to the apostrophe, or why
there isn't another one, or what was the problem with "Li'l Love." I know
the answers: they don't know, except they were breaking a rule and it felt
good.
>
>But like people in advertising everywhere, my coworkers tend to break the
safe rules, the ones they can get away with and still get a good night's
sleep. They break grammar rules.
>
>Advertising folks like to say, "Well, in advertising you can get away with
that" but I dont think advertising actually gets away with anything.
Advertising people think they get away with things, but really, the world
is laughing at advertising folk's vain attempts to be God-like, such as
putting an apostrophe in the wrong place.
>
>They also dont get away with their brazen attempts to cover grammatical
errors with cries of "It Tastes Good, Like a Cigarette Should!" as if to
say, "Look, an old grammar flub! Our grammar flub is, therefore, tradition!"
>
>Regarding the success of the Apple campaign: its success is phenomenal,
and serendipitous circumstances are reinforcing it. The product is selling
faster than Apple can keep up, the stock is at a 52-week high, the company
had its first profitable quarter out of the last five, the Windows/PC
magazines are giving Apple grudging but glowing product reviews, Intel is
in psychological retreat (besides suffering its first serious financial
problems in a while and its CEO resigning), Microsoft is fighting the
Justice Dept. and battling a torrent of complaints about product delays and
security failures, scalability and reliability of Windows NT. Apple is
doing very well, and, as it is one of only two brands that I have any
loyalty to at all (the other is Levi jeans), I am glad.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 29 Mar 1998 17:41:53 -0500
From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
Subject: "Cool beans!"

   I was recently asked about a teenage slang expression that I had never
previously heard: "Cool beans!" Several of my students are familiar with it
and agree it's been around for at least 8 years.  They regard it as a
synonym of "Cool!"

   I don't find this expression in RHHDAS, but it appears in Tom Dalzell's
_Flappers 2 Rappers_, (subtitle): _American Youth Slang_, p.178:  "The
1970s and 1980s... COOL BEANS!--I'm doing great! [Then in italics] This
expression was always used as a response to the question, "How are you?"
regardless of the form in which the question was asked."

    Does anyone have any idea about the origin of this expression? In
particular, why "beans"?

--Gerald Cohen





gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 29 Mar 1998 18:04:05 -0600
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: RE>Re: Think Different

Beverly Flanigan points out:

> First of all, ad agencies neither influence
>usage (goodly or badly) nor do they "break grammar rules" and "get away
>with their brazen attempts to cover grammatical errors"--they simply do
>what ordinary people in large measure do, and nobody notices but us.

Migh not work well if it weren't "out there" already.

DMLance

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Mar 1998 to 29 Mar 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/29/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 27 Mar 1998 to 28 Mar 1998             98-03-29 00:00:07
This message contains more text than QuickMail can display. The entire message
 has been enclosed as a file.

There are 16 messages totalling 591 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. I Love NY; Think (IBM) & Think Different (Apple) (2)
  2. Think Different (6)
  3. Think Different/Read Clearly
  4. RE>Re: Think Different (2)
  5. WHEN DID THE FOCUS OF THIS LIST CHANGE? (3)
  6. RE>WHEN DID THE FOCUS OF THIS LIST CHANGE?
  7. "beard"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Mar 1998 00:12:05 EST
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: I Love NY; Think (IBM) & Think Different (Apple)

I LOVE NY

     I Love NY is the tourist slogan of the New York State Department of
Economic Development.  The 20th anniversary of the slogan is on their web
page:
http://205.232.252.23/ny20th/intro.html
     You can get an "I Love NY" Mastercard at:
http://www.webapply.com/iloveny/
     The song is also at:
http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/PubLib/archive/9704/0469.htm/
      "I Love NY" was inspired by Virginia's tourist slogan, "Virginia is for
lovers."
     Most interesting to me is "heart" = "love."  There was a note about this
in American Speech, but I couldn't find it in the quick check I made of the
ADS web site index.  How do I look up a heart symbol?  Cecil Adams's The
Straight Dope had a 2-16-96 column called "Why heart = love."
     That goes way back to ancient times, as does the heart shape--although
the heart is NOT heart-shaped!  I have some newspaper advertisements going
back 100 years that use the heart symbol, but I can't find them now.
     About the "zen" query, see the Wall Street Journal, "PEPPER...and Salt,"
30 June 1959, pg. 16, col. 5, caption:  "Calm!  How can I be calm?  I send him
off to college so he can be useful in business, and he comes back a Zen
Buddhist!"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
THINK (IBM)
THINK DIFFERENT (APPLE)

    There's a very large Apple "Think Different" billboard near my home at the
corner of Third Avenue and 59th Street.
    Actually, shouldn't that be "Think Differently"?
    And does Apple really want people who "Think Different"?  If I send out a
resume written with crayons, do I have the job??
    The Wall Street Journal's "PEPPER...and Salt" loved to make fun of IBM's
"Think."

17 November 1958, pg. 16, col. 5.
CAPTION:  "The boss believes in moderation in everything!"
     A sign on the wall states "THINK /A LITTLE."

4 February 1959, pg. 10, col. 5.
     A skier is about to make a jump run.  Just before he potentially meets
his agony of defeat, he reads a sign that states "THINK."

21 April 1959, pg. 18, col. 2.
     One sign states "DEPARTMENT OF ANTIQUITIES."  Another sign states "THINK
BACK."

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Mar 1998 23:46:35 -0600
From:    Greg Pulliam <gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Think Different

I've seen a number of complaints about this campaign.  Since I first heard
and saw it, I've never thought of the "different" as an adverb modifying
"think."  This is a construction where "different" represents the goal (not
in the linguistic sense, mind you).  If you want to be thin, for example,
you might "think thin," but you wouldn't "think thinly."  If you want to be
different, why shouldn't you "think different"?

I think it's a great slogan, though--simple, elegant, and subversive.


>    There's a very large Apple "Think Different" billboard near my home at the
>corner of Third Avenue and 59th Street.
>    Actually, shouldn't that be "Think Differently"?
>    And does Apple really want people who "Think Different"?  If I send out a
>resume written with crayons, do I have the job??


Greg

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Mar 1998 07:08:21 -0500
From:    Elizabeth Gibbens <gibbens[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: I Love NY; Think (IBM) & Think Different (Apple)

Dear Mr. Popick,

        I am indebted to you and thank you for your help.  I am from Southern
Louisiana, so I am good with words and phrases used in the Cajun dialect.
If you should ever have questions about a word or phrase that you suspect
is from the Acadiana region of Louisiana, please e-mail.

        Thanks again--

                                                        All my best,
                                                        Elizabeth Gibbens

----------
> From: Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
> To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
> Subject: I Love NY; Think (IBM) & Think Different (Apple)
> Date: Saturday, March 28, 1998 12:12 AM
>
> I LOVE NY
>
>      I Love NY is the tourist slogan of the New York State Department of
> Economic Development.  The 20th anniversary of the slogan is on their web
> page:
> http://205.232.252.23/ny20th/intro.html
>      You can get an "I Love NY" Mastercard at:
> http://www.webapply.com/iloveny/
>      The song is also at:
> http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/PubLib/archive/9704/0469.htm/
>       "I Love NY" was inspired by Virginia's tourist slogan, "Virginia is
for
> lovers."
>      Most interesting to me is "heart" = "love."  There was a note about
this
> in American Speech, but I couldn't find it in the quick check I made of
the
> ADS web site index.  How do I look up a heart symbol?  Cecil Adams's The
> Straight Dope had a 2-16-96 column called "Why heart = love."
>      That goes way back to ancient times, as does the heart
shape--although
> the heart is NOT heart-shaped!  I have some newspaper advertisements
going
> back 100 years that use the heart symbol, but I can't find them now.
>      About the "zen" query, see the Wall Street Journal, "PEPPER...and
Salt,"
> 30 June 1959, pg. 16, col. 5, caption:  "Calm!  How can I be calm?  I
send him
> off to college so he can be useful in business, and he comes back a Zen
> Buddhist!"
>
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> -------------------------------------------
> THINK (IBM)
> THINK DIFFERENT (APPLE)
>
>     There's a very large Apple "Think Different" billboard near my home
at the
> corner of Third Avenue and 59th Street.
>     Actually, shouldn't that be "Think Differently"?
>     And does Apple really want people who "Think Different"?  If I send
out a
> resume written with crayons, do I have the job??
>     The Wall Street Journal's "PEPPER...and Salt" loved to make fun of
IBM's
> "Think."
>
> 17 November 1958, pg. 16, col. 5.
> CAPTION:  "The boss believes in moderation in everything!"
>      A sign on the wall states "THINK /A LITTLE."
>
> 4 February 1959, pg. 10, col. 5.
>      A skier is about to make a jump run.  Just before he potentially
meets
> his agony of defeat, he reads a sign that states "THINK."
>
> 21 April 1959, pg. 18, col. 2.
>      One sign states "DEPARTMENT OF ANTIQUITIES."  Another sign states
"THINK
> BACK."

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:05:58 -0500
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Think Different

Barry initiated:

> There's a very large Apple "Think Different" billboard near my home
> at t$ corner of Third Avenue and 59th Street.
> Actually, shouldn't that be "Think Differently"?
> And does Apple really want people who "Think Different"?  If I send
> out a resume written with crayons, do I have the job??

Then Greg Pulliam suggested:

> I've never thought of the "different" as an adverb modifying
> "think."  This is a construction where "different" represents the goal (not
> in the linguistic sense, mind you).
[snip]
> I think it's a great slogan, though--simple, elegant, and subversive.

It still shocks me to flip over an issue of the NYorker and see that Apple
ad "Think Different." Greg., if all those freshmen comp. students we
have been discussing write "One should think different" in an essay, will
we all extoll the simplicity, the elegance, and the subversion?

I would not ban the phrase, but I would not be able to repress a shudder.
I really hate the ad campaign; I think it is a PR disaster at a time when
my beloved Apple can ill afford a PR disaster.

Hand me a crayon, please, Barry -- black, preferably.

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:43:39 -0500
From:    Buchmann <buchmann[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Re: Think Different

This thread is already off topic, so
my two cents won't in and off itself
disgrace the list.

The VERY POINT of "THINK DIFFERENT"
is the unorthodox use of grammar. It
is MEANT to shock, to get attention,
to provoke discussion. Remember,
Macs are not just for those of us
who value words, but also for those
of us who value graphics.

Someone said the campaign is not
working. On the contrary, it is
working so well that Apple [as
usual] cannot provide enough of
its hot machines to fill the
demand [it was in trying to provide
machines for the common idiot that
Apple always had a problem]. Apple
has finally [as Jobs has implied, he
grew up] come to the realization that
Macs are only for the most talented
top fifteen per cent - not, as it were,
"for the rest of us."

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Mar 1998 11:31:07 -0600
From:    Greg Pulliam <gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.IIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: Think Different

>Barry initiated:
>
>> There's a very large Apple "Think Different" billboard near my home
>> at t$ corner of Third Avenue and 59th Street.
>> Actually, shouldn't that be "Think Differently"?
>> And does Apple really want people who "Think Different"?  If I send
>> out a resume written with crayons, do I have the job??
>
>Then Greg Pulliam suggested:
>
>> I've never thought of the "different" as an adverb modifying
>> "think."  This is a construction where "different" represents the goal (not
>> in the linguistic sense, mind you).
>[snip]
>> I think it's a great slogan, though--simple, elegant, and subversive.

Bethany commented:

>It still shocks me to flip over an issue of the NYorker and see that Apple
>ad "Think Different." Greg., if all those freshmen comp. students we
>have been discussing write "One should think different" in an essay, will
>we all extoll the simplicity, the elegance, and the subversion?

So, Bethany, you're saying that an ad campaign has the power to cause our
students to write this way in their papers?  Perhaps we should all quit
teaching freshman comp, and start putting up billboards instead.

But seriously, Apple did not say "One should think different."  Apple said
"Think Different."  As in a comedy writer's admonition to her co-worker to
"Think Funny."  This sort of construction has been around for many, many
years, and I doubt that it can be blamed for the widespread loss of
abverbial inflection that is occurring in English.

>I would not ban the phrase, but I would not be able to repress a shudder.
>I really hate the ad campaign; I think it is a PR disaster at a time when
>my beloved Apple can ill afford a PR disaster.

Well, the "PR disaster" has seen the value of Apple's stock rise almost 50%
over the last several months.  Here's hoping for a long string of such
disasters!

Long live Apple.


Greg

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Mar 1998 12:55:58 -0500
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Think Different/Read Clearly

On Sat, 28 Mar 1998, Greg Pulliam asked:

> Bethany commented:
>
> >It still shocks me to flip over an issue of the NYorker and see that Apple
> >ad "Think Different." Greg., if all those freshmen comp. students we
> >have been discussing write "One should think different" in an essay, will
> >we all extoll the simplicity, the elegance, and the subversion?
>
> So, Bethany, you're saying that an ad campaign has the power to cause our
> students to write this way in their papers?

No, I have clearly not said that. I asked a hypothetical question about
how we would view the construction if we met it in a comp class.

> But seriously, Apple did not say "One should think different."  Apple said
> "Think Different."  As in a comedy writer's admonition to her co-worker to
> "Think Funny."  This sort of construction has been around for many, many
> years, and I doubt that it can be blamed for the widespread loss of
> abverbial inflection that is occurring in English.

I am aware that the ad says "Think different" (I see it EVERYWHERE!). And
I have never suggested that there is a correlation between Apple's slogan
and any syntactic  change occuring in English

> Well, the "PR disaster" has seen the value of Apple's stock rise almost 50%
> over the last several months.  Here's hoping for a long string of such
> disasters!

Greg, I am a real skeptic about correlation and causality. I am aware that
Apple's sales have incresaed, and I am delighted. But -- I am dubious that
it is because of the use of the phrase "Think different."

> > Long live Apple.

Indeed!

Bethany, Apple/Mac user since 1986

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Mar 1998 13:14:41 -0500
From:    Evan Morris <words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM>
Subject: Re: Think Different

At 11:31 AM 3/28/98 -0600, Greg Pulliam wrote:
>
>Bethany commented:
>
>>I would not ban the phrase, but I would not be able to repress a shudde=
r.
>>I really hate the ad campaign; I think it is a PR disaster at a time wh=
en
>>my beloved Apple can ill afford a PR disaster.
>
>Well, the "PR disaster" has seen the value of Apple's stock rise almost =
50%
>over the last several months.=A0 Here's hoping for a long string of such
>disasters!
>
>Long live Apple.


Since we're off-topic....

I don't know whether I'd classify those ads as a "PR disaster," but many
people
(check out the NYTimes discussion boards) have found the use of images of
Gandhi to boost flagging computer sales profoundly repulsive and smarmy. =
=20

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Mar 1998 13:08:58 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: RE>Re: Think Different

I love the slogan "Think Different", the campaign, the product, and pretty much
 agree with Greg's analysis of acceptability, but I blame the folks at Chiat/Day
 for the missing "ly."

Folks at Chiat/Day, like advertising people everywhere, prefer to think of
 themselves as exceptional beings who break rules for the betterment of society.
 Sometimes they do it because they get a kick out of it, like shoplifting when
 you're 12 or driving way too fast or crossing in the middle of the street
 against traffic.

The ad agency I work for recently helped Carvel, an ice cream company located
 primarily in the northeast, launch a campaign for a small ice cream cake
 designed to celebrate life's smaller successes. My peers decided to call it
 "Little Love" but they wanted something a little more unique. So, it was put up
 for a vote as to whether it would be "Li'l Love" or "Lil'Love."

Naturally, the horrendous name "Lil'Love" is now plastered across television,
 newspapers, radio, point of purchase displays and product packaging. Nobody can
 tell me if there is a point to the apostrophe, or why there isn't another one,
 or what was the problem with "Li'l Love." I know the answers: they don't know,
 except they were breaking a rule and it felt  good.

But like people in advertising everywhere, my coworkers tend to break the safe
 rules, the ones they can get away with and still get a good night's sleep. They
 break grammar rules.

Advertising folks like to say, "Well, in advertising you can get away with that"
 but I dont think advertising actually gets away with anything. Advertising
 people think they get away with things, but really, the world is laughing at
 advertising folk's vain attempts to be God-like, such as putting an apostrophe
 in the wrong place.

They also dont get away with their brazen attempts to cover grammatical errors
 with cries of "It Tastes Good, Like a Cigarette Should!" as if to say, "Look,
 an old grammar flub! Our grammar flub is, therefore, tradition!"

Regarding the success of the Apple campaign: its success is phenomenal, and
 serendipitous circumstances are reinforcing it. The product is selling faster
 than Apple can keep up, the stock is at a 52-week high, the company had its
 first profitable quarter out of the last five, the Windows/PC magazines are
 giving Apple grudging but glowing product reviews, Intel is in psychological
 retreat (besides suffering its first serious financial problems in a while and
 its CEO resigning), Microsoft is fighting the Justice Dept. and battling a
 torrent of complaints about product delays and security failures, scalability
 and reliability of Windows NT. Apple is doing very well, and, as it is one of
 only two brands that I have any loyalty to at all (the other is Levi jeans), I
 am glad.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Mar 1998 13:46:00 -0500
From:    Buchmann <buchmann[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: WHEN DID THE FOCUS OF THIS LIST CHANGE?

Quite seriously, folks!

When was an ADS list focused
on changes in usage highjacked
by a bunch of high school
grammarians?

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Mar 1998 13:41:04 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: RE>Re: Think Different

From: Evan Morris
> I don't know whether I'd classify those ads as a "PR disaster," but many
> people (check out the NYTimes discussion boards) have found the use of images
 of
> Gandhi to boost flagging computer sales profoundly repulsive and smarmy.

I heard from some people about that. Others were apparently more put off by the
 Great Soul's sagging, shirtless chest than put off by what they saw as the
 co-opting of his legend and virtue.

I find it interesting, in a further off-topic sort of way, that Steve Jobs
 (interim CEO and Apple co-founder) contacted as some of the featured people, or
 their families, to ask directly for permission. This is, of course, hearsay,
 and I wouldn't know who he contacted and he did not.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Mar 1998 14:18:29 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: RE>WHEN DID THE FOCUS OF THIS LIST CHANGE?

Well, we have been off-topic, but I hardly think your alarm is necessary.

Although nobody will deny the focus of this list is American Dialects, a study
 of the archives reveals that while we usually stay on track, we also spread our
 talks to related topics. That tends to happen when any bunch of educated,
 intelligent and opinionated people get together.

In general order of most common first, our discussions tend to cover:

American Dialects
American English phrase/word origins
American English usage
English usage in other countries
Anecdotal or personal examples of words, usage or dialect
English usage in the media
English grammar
Language-related news events
Teaching-related language issues
ADS-related events
Calls for papers

So, hang in there. We'll come back to vowel shifts and the like shortly.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

--------------------------------------
Date: 3/28/98 1:54 PM
To: Grant Barrett
From: Buchmann
Quite seriously, folks!

When was an ADS list focused
on changes in usage highjacked
by a bunch of high school
grammarians?

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Mar 1998 14:33:07 -0500
From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
Subject: Re: "beard"

    Here are a few more references for slang "beard":

1) Tony Thorpe, _The Dictionary of Contemporary Slang_, (NY: Pantheon
Books), 1990, p.3l:  'BEARD--a male escort posing as a boyfriend, lover,
husband, etc.  The term (heard from the mid-1970s in showbiz and "society"
circles) may refer to a lesbian's "official" partner, with whom she is seen
in public.'

2) Tom Dalzell, _Flappers 2 Rappers_, (subtitle): _American Youth Slang_,
(Springfield, Mass.: Merriam-Webster), 1996, p.68: 'A 1950s WORD LIST:
...BEARD, a nice, smart guy.'
 [G. Cohen : This "beard" does not seem to be relevant to "beard" in its
modern slang sense.]

3) Tom Dalzell, _op. cit._, p.111: 'A MAINSTREAM 1960s WORD LIST: ...
BEARDED--tricked.'

--Gerald Cohen



gc
======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/28/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 26 Mar 1998 to 27 Mar 1998             98-03-28 00:00:23
There are 5 messages totalling 99 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Nine-to-Five
  2. Banning "as"
  3. Barry Popick, You're Needed!
  4. Attn:  Moderator
  5. subscription

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Mar 1998 02:19:51 EST
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Nine-to-Five

     I had previously posted a 1940s citation on "nine-to-five" (another
business term), but no results come up on the ADS-L archives search engine.
I've had several frustrating non-results with ADS-L's archives.
     BUSINESS WEEK of 11 January 1936, pg. 25, has a Smith-Corona typewriter
ad:

"Mary Grey," as played by Miss Lucille Wall in the Smith-Corona radio program
"Nine to Five"--Thursdays 7:15 p.m., E. S. T., Blue NBC Network.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Mar 1998 01:25:05 -0600
From:    "Albert E. Krahn" <krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US>
Subject: Banning "as"

Peter said:
Date:    Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:42:35 +0000
From:    Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Banning words in class

Ban "as"??  You mean like in:

"(censored) Good (censored) It Gets"
"He stood (censored) if transfixed."

In my feeling, if "as" is banned, you have to substitute something
else, e.g.:

"Like I said before..."
"Like you know, we don't tolerate nonstandard usage in this class!"

Peter
========
I only ban it as a subordinator. Instead, they have to decide to use one of
the following: because, since, while, although, though, etc.
(Like you like it. I like it.)
akra

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Mar 1998 09:18:27 -0500
From:    Elizabeth Gibbens <gibbens[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EROLS.COM>
Subject: Barry Popick, You're Needed!

Dear All, and Especially Barry Popick--

        When did the "I love NY" campaign get started?  Was it in the late
 70's?

                                                        Elizabeth

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Mar 1998 11:28:22 -0500
From:    Elizabeth Gibbens <gibbens[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EROLS.COM>
Subject: Attn:  Moderator

To Whom It May Concern:

        I have only received one message--my own--from the ADS list this
 morning.
Recently, there was a mix-up between my name and someone else's, a Caren
Gibbens, and I am wondering whether you have deleted my subscription by
mistake.  Would you mind checking into it and responding?  Thanks.

                                                        Elizabeth Gibbens

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Mar 1998 10:36:38 -0600
From:    Chris Corcoran <cmcorcor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU>
Subject: subscription

Please tell me how I can stop my subscription to the list.

I have tried several things including mailing the list owner without any
response. I apologize for the intrusion on the list regarding logistics,
but I have to reduce my mail.

Thanks for the help
Chris Corcoran

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Mar 1998 to 27 Mar 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/27/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 25 Mar 1998 to 26 Mar 1998             98-03-27 00:00:14
This message contains more text than QuickMail can display. The entire message
 has been enclosed as a file.

There are 17 messages totalling 660 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. EuroEnglish urban myth
  2. banned words and comp (2)
  3. Tough English and Sweet Coffee
  4. Banning words in class (2)
  5. High school grammar textbook: summary
  6. Teaching freshman comp
  7. Suck eggs and die!
  8. banning words
  9. "beard" (5)
 10. Downloadable maps (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:34:03 -0600
From:    "Albert E. Krahn" <krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US>
Subject: EuroEnglish urban myth

This is one of those urban myths that gets rediscovered every few years and
makes the rounds one more time as if it were original. I have a version of
it in my files from about 1960, when it was printed in a newsletter by one
of the major dictionary publishers, possibly the American College
Dictionary. Of course, it has been updated a bit with the Eurolanguage
spin, but otherwise the process described is quite close. It certainly is
older than 1994! Some of the phrases seem identical to the 1960 version. If
anyone is interested, I might be able to resurrect the older version--if I
can find a volunteer to suffer through the typing and proofreading of it.
CLAndrus deserves a cigar.
(BTW, ENGLISH IS TOUGH STUFF has also been on bulletin boards for years.)
-----------------
Date:    Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:17:24 EST
From:    CLAndrus <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: EuroEnglish

I tried to send this piece from an a-drive document last week and it came
through gibberish. So, I'm taking the time out of a busy schedule to type the
whole thing. I hope you enjoy it. I found it in The Best of American Humor of
1994, edited by Moshe Waldoks, pub. by Simon & Schuster. It was listed under
miscellaneous and no author was listed.  Here goes:

   Having chosen English as the preferred language in the EEC, the European
Parliament has commissioned a feasbility study in way of improving efficient
in communications between Government departments.
   European officials have often pointed out that English spelling is
unnecessarily difficult; for example: cough plough, rough, through, and
thorough. What is clearly needed is a phased programme of changes to iron out
these anomalies. The programme would, of course, be administered by a
committee staff at top level by participating nations.
   In the first year, for example, the committee would suggest using 's'
instead of the soft 'c'. Sertainly, sivil servants in all sites would reseive
this news with joy. Then the hard 'c' could be replaced by 'k' sinse both
letters are pronounsed alike. Not only would this klear up konfusion in the
minds of klerikal workers, but typewriters kould be made with one less letter.
   There would be growing enthusiasm when in the sekond year, it was anounsed
that the troublesome 'ph' would henseforth be written 'f'.
   This would make words like 'fotograf' twenty per sent shorter in print.
  In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to
reatsh the stage where more komplikated tshanges are possible. Governments
would enkourage the removal of double letters which have always been a
deterent  to akirate speling.
   We would al agre that the horible mes of silent 'e's in the languag is
disgrasful. Therfor we kould drop thes and kontinu to read and writ as though
nothing had hapend. By this tim it would be four years sins the skem began and
peopl would be reseptiv to steps sutch as replacing "th" by "z". Perhaps zen
ze funktion of 'w' kould be taken on by 'v', vitsh is, after al, half a 'w'.
Shortly after zis, ze unesesary 'o' kould be dropd from words kontaining 'ou'.
Similar arguments vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.
   Kontinuing zis proses yer after yer, ve vue eventuli hav a reli sensibl
riten styl. After tventi yers zer vud be no more trublsm difikultis and
everivun vud fin it ezi tu understand etsh ozer. Ze drems of Mr. Orvel vud
finali hav kum tru.

TRY RUNNING THIS THROUGH SPELLCHECK!


------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Mar 1998 23:51:41 -0600
From:    Dennis Baron <debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU>
Subject: banned words and comp

Bethany wonders if teaching writing in college is a sign that high schools
are not doing their job. I don't see it that way. Not that I think high
schools are doing their job--they definitely are not, if my two daughters'
experience, sixteen years apart, is any indication. Rather, I think that
even if high schools taught writing in a creative, interesting, exciting
way (and I know some teachers do that), students would still have some
learnin to do when they got to the demands of college writing. It's just a
whole lot different.

I say this (and my comments on banned words) after 11 years directing a
first-year writing program at a fairly selective state school.

The first thing college instructors say to their students seems to be, "you
may have gotten away with this kind of thing in high school, but you're in
college now." The first thing seminar profs say to their grad students is,
"you can't write like you're still in college." And if you've got your
degree and submitted your first article, your editor is likely to say,
"Hey, this isn't grad school--you've got to write like a professional now.
. ."  You can't win? Sure you can, but each time you change
"levels"--sometimes each time you face a blank screen--you have to learn to
write all over again. That's the message I tried to convey. Remember,
Bethany, that first law school paper--Toto, we're not in grad school
anymore, methinks.

As for faculty teaching writing, well we all should and do, no matter what
course we're teaching, in that we should frame writing assignments so
students have some idea of what we expect, and we should provide feedback
that gives students a sense that someone read their work.

Dennis

Dennis Baron, Acting Head               debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu
Department of English           phone: 217-333-2390
University of Illinois          fax: 217-333-4321
608 South Wright Street
Urbana, Illinois 61801   http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Mar 1998 12:02:39 +1000
From:    Ross Chambers <maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Tough English and Sweet Coffee

Please be aware that I'm attempting to eliminate spurious characters=20
from my posts, and currently awaiting reply from list owner. This is the=20
only list of 6 which manifests the problem. Please bear with me.

I'd really like to comment on 'dubbing', but I'll postpone for the=20
moment.

Two short comments:
"English is Tough Stuff" a New Zealand friend with the Germanic (?)=20
given name of Frith was forced to adopt the name Marie during a long=20
stay in France, due to the inability of the natives to wrap their=20
tongues around the terminal 'th.'

"Coffee" Apocryphal waitress in backblocks Australia:

"Do you take sugar?" Customer: "Yes" Waitress: "Well don't stir it."

feeling outcast - Ross Chambers =20
--=20
                                                                        =09
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Ross Chambers           Sydney       Australia =20
maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ozemail.com.au

"L'Australia non =E8 solo agli antipodi, =E8 lontana da tutto,=20
  talora anche da sa stessa."

(Australia is not only  at the Antipodes, she is away from everything,=20
sometimes even from herself)

Umberto Eco

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Mar 1998 07:25:22 -0500
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Re: banned words and comp

On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, Dennis Baron wrote:

> Bethany wonders if teaching writing in college is a sign that high schools
> are not doing their job. I don't see it that way. Not that I think high
> schools are doing their job--they definitely are not [snip]

Thanks, Dennis ... that's what they wanted. It is not that I necessarily
think that high schools are not doing their job ... I think, as you point
out, that we all make some assumptions about what high schools shoud
do, etc. But we don't often talk about what our assumptions are, exactly.

Re Lynne's comments: I taught a grad course in the College of Educ. a
couple of years ago --what a revelation! I carefully chose what I thought
would be appropriate text material (simpler in many ways even then what I
use in an Intro to Ling 200) -- I discovered that I had pitched it way too
high. )

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:22:47 -0500
From:    "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Banning words in class

Hoo-ray fer the uther Dennis. Ban shit in the yoonivercity? Whut an idee!

dInIs

>Sorry but I haven't been following this discussion, which I find now to be
>very interesting (was on spring break and just deleted all my email).  Not
>only do I not ban words in class, I encourage students to use words that
>others have banned (including ain't, other forms of to be [what would
>Hamlet have done without to be or not to be, that the question]; can for
>may, like for as, that for which. I end sentences with prepositions; and I
>curse wildly (I love the lesson on taboo, though I warn students that it is
>for mature audiences and note that I am cursing as part of a scientific
>study of language--as Clarence Darrow is supposed to have said, at least in
>Inherit the Wind, I don't curse just for the hell of it. And double
>negatives, hey I just love double negatives! Exclamation points, smiley
>faces.  Sure there's lots about language I don't like.  Like share for
>tell. But ban it? Hell, I hate that one so much I use it all the time.  A
>foolish consistency is the hobgoblin, if you ask me. Nay, I would ban
>banning, were I of a mind to ban.
>
>Dennis
>
>
>Dennis Baron, Acting Head               debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu
>Department of English           phone: 217-333-2390
>University of Illinois          fax: 217-333-4321
>608 South Wright Street
>Urbana, Illinois 61801   http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron

Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Mar 1998 08:29:18 EST
From:    CLAndrus <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: High school grammar textbook: summary

For putting letters into good business English with commas in the right
places, I recommend the Gregg Reference Guide. It's the best of the style
manuals, and also makes interesting reading.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Mar 1998 09:33:41 EST
From:    AAllan <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Teaching freshman comp

>What's all that tuition for if not to get some of those highly skilled
> people to actually
> teach my kids?  And why not freshman comp?

You could send your kids to MacMurray College (ahem), where the English
department faculty (ahem) teach freshman comp. . . . of course, we don't have
any graduate students to do it for us.

>It is simply not possible to teach 4-5 courses and do anything else at all.

I used to think that way, teaching 4 courses each semester plus one in
January. Then I read in the _ Chronicle of Higher Education_ about a guy who
writes a book every two weeks, and I felt lazy.

- Allan Metcalf

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:18:58 -0500
From:    "Jeutonne P. Brewer" <jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: Banning words in class

On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, sonja lanehart wrote:

> In my Intro to Sociolinguistics class Winter 1998 quarter, a couple of the
> students who are TAs for the intro composition class said they tried to
> ban the filler "like" in speech but had to give up the ban because
> students found they couldn't construct a thought without using it.
> Apparently the students just decided not to talk during class because the
> task of censoring their words was too much for them to overcome--or
> adjust.   --SL
>
> *************************************************************************
> Sonja L. Lanehart

Good point. I think trying to ban words in class is more trouble
than its worth. Also, this approach puts the responsibility for
monitoring on the instructor rather than on the student.


**********************************************
Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor
Department of English
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
Greensboro, NC 27412
email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu
URL:   http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer
***********************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Mar 1998 10:22:15 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: Suck eggs and die!

The estimable RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM> writes:

>>>>>>
In a message dated 3/23/98 7:55:19 AM, someone wrote:

<<In this view, the performer might not "suck blood . . ." or "suck money . . ."
 but merely "suck."  This suggests that some
people don't look for a direct object of "suck" used this way.  Maybe that's why
 it is no longer necessarily considered
obscene--an implied off-color object ("That sucks []") doesn't even figure in
 (younger?) people's use of the phrase.>>

There is considerable evidence that SUCK in its slang senses was NEVER
"considered obscene." I mean, direct objects were ALWAYS expressed in the
1920s-60s and they were "wind," "eggs," and "rope" (e.g., "You suck eggs!"
"That really sucks wind!/rope!"). "Historically, the use of SUCK as an expletive
 with an "off-color object" does not exist in
the written record in any place that I am aware of. Whatever you are filling in
 for the "[]" has no historical basis--except
maybe as a kind of semantic back-formation, but the
"off-color object" is very much in the mind of the beholder; it ain't in the
 historical record, even as it is definitely not in the
minds of most contemporary users.

<<<<<

And what IS "in the historical record"? What got written and published. IIRC,
 the expression "suck" without d.o.
originated, or at least spread to cover the country, ex oribus teenagers, at a
 time when "suck" with d.o.s such as you
list was obsolete or obsolescent in colloquial speech with any meaning at all
 like the current one (which I would express
as "be bad, be of poor quality, be undesirable, be despicable; [of an event or
 situation] be unfortunate").

IMHO the "off-color object" was definitely in the minds of the beholder *and the
 user* at the time when the objectless
verb became popular, which was probably part of its shock value. A generation
 has elapsed -- several generations of
teenagers -- and if the implied object and its connotations have faded in
 transition, we should neither be surprised nor
conclude that they were never there.

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Mar 1998 11:22:40 +0000
From:    Lynne Murphy <M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU>
Subject: banning words

dennis baron, who taught me how to teach writing, argues that one should
not ban words in freshman comp essays.  in spite of my blacklist,  i
don't entirely disagree with him--that is, if we're talking about
banning words or phrases because they're "grammatically incorrect" or
"ugly".  i don't care if they use 'like', i encourage them to use the
first person, etc.  what i'm trying to do with my blacklist is to make
the students aware of high-schooly phrases that keep them from saying
what they actually mean.  so, e.g., my (right now very short) list says
that unmodified 'society' should not be the subject of a sentence.
without this rule, i get essays with lots of sentences like "society
says that women should be thin."  two problems:  which society?  (there
are certainly social systems in which the claim is not true.) and how
can a society "say" something? (does society have a mouth?  a book of
law?)  so, this rule is intended to force them to get specific and
sensical in their claims--e.g., "in american society today, women are
rewarded for being thin and punished for being fat."  similarly "the
dictionary" is banned because there is no single abstract dictionary.
(i also make them cite specific editions of bibles instead of _the_
bible, but that's just my little catholic/unitarian rebellion at a
baptist university.)  grammar is only 10% of the final grade of my
papers, but content is 60% (the rest is organization & use of sources),
and meaningless phrases haven't much content.  i try to use the
blacklist as a way of starting them thinking about words--making it
clear that these are phrases that are student cliches, but that any
phrase can be used meaninglessly.  these phrases give them examples and
ways of thinking about their words.  i hope.

still avoiding essays,
lynne

--
M. Lynne Murphy
Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English
Baylor University
PO Box 97404
Waco, TX 76798

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:07:40 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: "beard"

A usage new to me appears in today's _Wall Street Journal_, p.1, column 4.

The article's headline and subhead sum up the story:

        Where the (Old) Boys
        Are: Trying to Find
        Their College Daze
                ***
        Spring Break, Adult Style,
        Can Get Pretty Juvenile;
        Golfing as a Great Excuse

The usage in question appears right after the first interior subhead:

        Playing the Golf Game
For many of these post-college spring revelers, golf is the beard -- that is,
 ostensibly the main attraction, and a
convenient excuse to spouses and significant others left at home.

        =====

Is this usage in fact something new, or just new to me? What is its origin? I
 hypothesize the metaphor of a fake beard
used as a cheap and unconvincing disguise, but that's only a guess.

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Mar 1998 13:16:53 -0500
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: "beard"

At 01:07 PM 3/26/98 -0500, Mark Mandel wrote:
>A usage new to me appears in today's _Wall Street Journal_, p.1, column 4.
>
>"For many of these post-college spring revelers, golf is the beard -- that is,
>ostensibly the main attraction, and a convenient excuse to spouses and
>significant others left at home.
>

I've heard "beard" since the early 80's in the sense of a gay male's female
escort or wife. I.e., beard = something used as a disguise or "cover." For
example, I recalling hearing it used disparagingly of Elton John's wife when
he got married, briefly, in about 1986 if I recall.

Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Mar 1998 14:52:46 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: "beard"

At 1:16 PM -0500 3/26/98, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote:
>At 01:07 PM 3/26/98 -0500, Mark Mandel wrote:
>>A usage new to me appears in today's _Wall Street Journal_, p.1, column 4.
>>
>>"For many of these post-college spring revelers, golf is the beard --
>>that is,
>>ostensibly the main attraction, and a convenient excuse to spouses and
>>significant others left at home.
>>
>
>I've heard "beard" since the early 80's in the sense of a gay male's female
>escort or wife. I.e., beard = something used as a disguise or "cover." For
>example, I recalling hearing it used disparagingly of Elton John's wife when
>he got married, briefly, in about 1986 if I recall.
>
>Gregory {Greg} Do
======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/26/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 24 Mar 1998 to 25 Mar 1998             98-03-26 00:00:01
There are 17 messages totalling 539 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Banning words in class (5)
  2. Footbag or Hacky Sack?
  3. Taping tel. conv. (2)
  4. Banned wds (4)
  5. "divide and conquer"
  6. the limited universality de Esperanto
  7. Suck eggs and die!
  8. Call for articles: Sociolinguistics of names
  9. Teaching freshman comp

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Mar 1998 23:02:47 +0000
From:    Lynne Murphy <M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU>
Subject: Re: Banning words in class

Albert E. Krahn wrote:
>
> So "like" is banned. So what's new?
> I ban words in class all the time, benevolent dictator that I am. The words
> "opinion" (for its misuse as "feeling") and "as" (for its ambiguity) are
> banned regularly. Also, students are issued one exclamation point per
> semester, which they can use or not use, as they wish. It cuts down on
> comic strip-style writing.
> akra


what's new is that they're trying to regulate speech, rather than
writing (but we all know that that's been done before too.  i remember
the nuns telling us all the time "'ain't' isn't a word because it isn't
in the dictionary."  then i grew up and realized they gave us defective
dictionaries in order to make their point).

in my classes, the word "society" is banned.  (i'd make exceptions if
anyone in my classes ever had a reason to use the word, but they don't.)
i'm considering instituting corporal punishment for anyone who writes
the phrase "in today's society".  they're also not allowed to begin any
sentence with "the dictionary defines X as".

a colleague and i are trying to come up with a good list of banned
words/phrases for undergraduate papers, so i'd like to hear what others
have banned.  if this is too far off topic for the list, please respond
to me directly.


lynne

--

M. Lynne Murphy
Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English
Baylor University
PO Box 97404
Waco, TX 76798

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Mar 1998 00:06:38 EST
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Footbag or Hacky Sack?

    Oops!  I missed the cite and the joke!
    Footbag/hacky sack was in American Speech "Among the New Words" 64.2,
Summer 1989.  However, the entry covers the 1982 book as the earliest
citation.  The AS entry doesn't describe the game's two founders as the
website does, nor does it describe footbag terminology (such as "jester").
     If you enter the footbag tournament this weekend, be aware that most
contestants will suffer the agony of de feet.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Mar 1998 05:24:23 EST
From:    CLAndrus <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Taping tel. conv.

Bethany: just go to Radio Shack and buy a gizmo for about $20. It plugs into
your phone and into a tape recorder. Easy. Carol

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:41:09 -0500
From:    sonja lanehart <lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARCHES.UGA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Banning words in class

In my Intro to Sociolinguistics class Winter 1998 quarter, a couple of the
students who are TAs for the intro composition class said they tried to
ban the filler "like" in speech but had to give up the ban because
students found they couldn't construct a thought without using it.
Apparently the students just decided not to talk during class because the
task of censoring their words was too much for them to overcome--or
adjust.   --SL

*************************************************************************
Sonja L. Lanehart
Department of English                My office:          (706) 542-2260
Park Hall                            ENG office/message: (706) 542-1261
University of Georgia                Fax:                (706) 542-2181
Athens, GA 30602-6205                E-mail:    lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]arches.uga.edu
*************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Mar 1998 08:56:52 -0500
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Banned wds

I used to ban words in comp class essays. I don't anymore, haven't for
years (no, I don't teach comp anymore, but I did as recently as about
1990). Later, I opted for tactics to make the students sick of the items
in question.

For instance, I used to hold a contest to see who could use the offending
term the most number of times per page. Then we would read the dreadful
winners out loud. Everybody was soon very aware of the offensive nature
of the words abd was pretty sick of them. I think that banning is usually
counter-productive.

The last few times I taught comp, I taught computer sections in a Mac
lab. At that time, many of our students had not used computers. They went
crazy over the graphic possibilities. SO -- we had another contest, to see
who could use the most in a composition. They soon got it out of their
system.

BTW, the last few times I taught comp, I insisted on teaching 101 only in
the Spring semester. That meant that almost every student in the class had
failed 101 at least once. I enjoyed the challenge.

When I came to UT, every member of the professorial staff taught freshman
comp at least once every two years. Now, of course, no members of the
prof. staff teach it, except the director of the Comp program. I was the
last prof. staff member to volunteer to teach comp. I have not had time to
do it in recent years, but I would like to do it again. How better to know
the current state of the language?

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:29:41 -0600
From:    Pamela A Downing <downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSD.UWM.EDU>
Subject: Re: Taping tel. conv.

I use a device from Radio Shack which I got years ago.  It works quite
well, although the end of the conversation on my end is always a bit
louder than the other end.  It's a device that you plug into your phone
jack and your tape recorder, so that the recorder goes on whenever you
pick up your phone receiver.  The name of my (OLD!) device is the Duofone
Telephone Recording Control, Catalog # 43-236B.  If they no longer sell
this model, maybe they would have its successor.

                                        Pamela



Pamela Downing                          Office: (414) 229-4533
Dept. of English & Comp Lit             Message: (414) 229-4511
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee       Home: (414) 453-4480
Milwaukee, Wi. 53201                    Fax: (414) 453-4481
downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csd.uwm.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Mar 1998 12:17:44 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: "divide and conquer"

I remember this Latin motto as "Divide ut imperes", often translated "Divide and
 rule". Actually, the literal translation is
more like 'divide in order to rule'.

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:17:55 EST
From:    CLAndrus <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Banned wds

I just did my Fat-free Communication seminar this morning for 30 employees of
the Grand Hyatt Hotel in NYC. Lots of emphasis on getting clear, concise words
on the page. Many attendees had gone through academic writing. One Harvard MBA
and another from the Wharton School of Economics -- neither had ever had a
course in how to write a simple memo or business letter.  Lots of confusion
about who/whom, affect/effect, where to put the commas and apostrophes. Where
are the grammar teachers of yore? People come out of graduate school, and
still can't write a correct business document! I just got a sample issue of a
training magazine. Cover letter: Our magazine is for a company like your's! If
you subscribe, we'll contact you before you expire so you won't miss any
issues.
   How come (why?) are we not teaching our own language to our students?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:42:35 +0000
From:    Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Banning words in class

Ban "as"??  You mean like in:

"(censored) Good (censored) It Gets"
"He stood (censored) if transfixed."

In my feeling, if "as" is banned, you have to substitute something
else, e.g.:

"Like I said before..."
"Like you know, we don't tolerate nonstandard usage in this class!"

Peter

On Tue, 24 Mar 1998 21:55:37 -0600 "Albert E. Krahn"
<krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US> wrote:

> So "like" is banned. So what's new?
> I ban words in class all the time, benevolent dictator that I am. The
> words "opinion" (for its misuse as "feeling") and "as" (for its
> ambiguity) are banned regularly. Also, students are issued one
> exclamation point per semester, which they can use or not use, as they
> wish. It cuts down on comic strip-style writing.
> akra

----------------------
Peter A. McGraw
Linfield College
McMinnville, Oregon
pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linfield.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Mar 1998 13:37:25 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Banning words in class

At 10:42 AM +0000 3/25/98, Peter McGraw wrote:
>Ban "as"??  You mean like in:
>
>"(censored) Good (censored) It Gets"
>"He stood (censored) if transfixed."
>
>In my feeling, if "as" is banned, you have to substitute something
>else, e.g.:
>
>"Like I said before..."
>"Like you know, we don't tolerate nonstandard usage in this class!"
>
>Peter
>
Not to mention the immortal Shakespearean comedy, "Like You Like It"


Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:28:27 EST
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: the limited universality de Esperanto

In a message dated 3/22/98 7:49:53 PM, dcoles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HORIZON.BC.CA wrote:

<<>>I want to use "de" everywhere, occ. maybe "a'".
>>Let's do it for all languages
>with prepostions.  Sort of universal creolization>>
>
>it is called "Esperanto"

Au contraire, mon frere! There's nothing "universal" about Esperanto -
unless your definition of the universe is Western Europe.>>

Esperanto's definition of "universal" (not mine) is 'Western Europe'--or, more
properly, 'Indo-European Europe'. But I assume that anybody who wanted to use
"de" as the "universal" "prepostion" has Indo- European Europe in mind,
anyway.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Mar 1998 16:44:15 EST
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Suck eggs and die!

In a message dated 3/23/98 7:55:19 AM, someone wrote:

<<In this view, the performer might not "suck blood . . ." or "suck money . .
." but merely "suck."  This suggests that some people don't look for a
direct object of "suck" used this way.  Maybe that's why it is no longer
necessarily considered obscene--an implied off-color object ("That sucks [
]") doesn't even figure in (younger?) people's use of the phrase.>>

There is considerable evidence that SUCK in its slang senses was NEVER
"considered obscene." I mean, direct objects were ALWAYS expressed in the
1920s-60s and they were "wind," "eggs," and "rope" (e.g., "You suck eggs!"
"That really sucks wind!/rope!"). "Historically, the use of SUCK as an
expletive with an "off-color object" does not exist in the written record in
any place that I am aware of. Whatever you are filling in for the "[]" has no
historical basis--except maybe as a kind of semantic back-formation, but the
"off-color object" is very much in the mind of the beholder; it ain't in the
historical record, even as it is definitely not in the minds of most
contemporary users.

As you may have guessed, I have written an article on this matter that I'll be
glad to send you if you are interestred in looking at what I have to say about
SUCK at great length.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:27:21 EST
From:    AAllan <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Call for articles: Sociolinguistics of names

(from the American Name Society)

  CALL FOR ARTICLES

The June 1999 issue of NAMES: A Journal of Onomastics will
be devoted to The Sociolinguistics of Names and Naming.

Papers should relate names and/or naming to one or more of the
traditional areas of sociolinguists: regional or social variation,
stylistic or situational variation, ethnic or other cultural
variation, changes in names or naming practices over time, the
pragmatics of naming. Manuscripts submitted for this special issue
should be empirical rather than philosophical and should be based
upon original or existing research.

Potential contributors should send a proposal of one or two
paragraphs describing the paper as soon as convenient to:

Edward Callary, Editor, NAMES
English Department
Northern Illinois University
DeKalb IL 60115

proposals by email are welcome. send to:

TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MVS.CSO.NIU.EDU

make sure that's a zero after the TB and a letter o after
the cs.

NAMES, now in its 46th year of continuous publication, is a fully-
refereed journal; manuscripts of articles are read and evaluated
anonymously by at least two qualified scholars. Although sponsored
by the American Name Society, membership in the society is not
required for publication.

    Visit the American Name Society homepage at
        http://www.wtsn.binghamton.edu/ans/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:51:39 -0500
From:    frank abate <abatef[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Banned wds

Message text written by Bethany Dumas:

>BTW, the last few times I taught comp, I insisted on teaching 101 only i=
n
the Spring semester. That meant that almost every student in the class ha=
d
failed 101 at least once. I enjoyed the challenge.

When I came to UT, every member of the professorial staff taught freshman=

comp at least once every two years. Now, of course, no members of the
prof. staff teach it, except the director of the Comp program. I was the
last prof. staff member to volunteer to teach comp. I have not had time t=
o
do it in recent years, but I would like to do it again. How better to kno=
w
the current state of the language?

Bethany<

************************
I'm surprised to hear that "Now, of course, no members of the
prof. staff teach it".  What a sorry commentary on the state of things!

I am now quite far from the academy, having last taught in a formal setti=
ng
some 20 years ago, so I have no recent experience to draw on.  But if
professors are
indeed so reluctant to "get down in the trenches," and this is truly
widespread,
this is puzzling and very problematic to one like me, facing the near-ter=
m
prospect of
having to pay huge amounts of tuition for college educations for my kids.=


What's all that tuition for if not to get some of those highly skilled
people to actually
teach my kids?  And why not freshman comp?  There are few more valuable
life skills
than being able to write clearly, confidently, and gracefully.

Frank Abate

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Mar 1998 18:41:40 +0000
From:    Lynne Murphy <M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU>
Subject: Re: Banned wds

frank abate wrote:
> What's all that tuition for if not to get some of those highly skilled
> people to actually
> teach my kids?  And why not freshman comp?  There are few more valuable
> life skills
> than being able to write clearly, confidently, and gracefully.


the thing is, almost none of us are actually qualified to teach freshman
comp.  so a lot of students get taught worse by people with ph.d.'s in
linguistics or english than by people with an m.a. in english and some
on-the-job training.  our univ is very big on making professors teach
freshman comp so that they can claim we're better than university of
texas in that regard, but the truth is, that many of the people who
teach it are on autopilot and the really good classes are those taught
by graduate students who are excited by the opportunity and not too
jaded to put in the effort.

lynne
--

M. Lynne Murphy
Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English
Baylor University
PO Box 97404
Waco, TX 76798

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:01:21 -0600
From:    Dennis Baron <debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Banning words in class

Sorry but I haven't been following this discussion, which I find now to be
very interesting (was on spring break and just deleted all my email).  Not
only do I not ban words in class, I encourage students to use words that
others have banned (including ain't, other forms of to be [what would
Hamlet have done without to be or not to be, that the question]; can for
may, like for as, that for which. I end sentences with prepositions; and I
curse wildly (I love the lesson on taboo, though I warn students that it is
for mature audiences and note that I am cursing as part of a scientific
study of language--as Clarence Darrow is supposed to have said, at least in
Inherit the Wind, I don't curse just for the hell of it. And double
negatives, hey I just love double negatives! Exclamation points, smiley
faces.  Sure there's lots about language I don't like.  Like share for
tell. But ban it? Hell, I hate that one so much I use it all the time.  A
foolish consistency is the hobgoblin, if you ask me. Nay, I would ban
banning, were I of a mind to ban.

Dennis


Dennis Baron, Acting Head               debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu
Department of English           phone: 217-333-2390
University of Illinois          fax: 217-333-4321
608 South Wright Street
Urbana, Illinois 61801   http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Mar 1998 21:54:45 -0500
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Teaching freshman comp

On Wed, 25 Mar 1998, frank abate wasked re freshman comp:

> What's all that tuition for if not to get some of those highly skilled
> people to actually
> teach my kids?  And why not freshman comp?  There are few more valuable
> life skills
> than being able to write clearly, confidently, and gracefully.

It's a complex problem. I think it is true, as Lynne Murphy suggested,
that "almost none of us are actually qualified to teach freshman comp."
Further, to pay professor's salaries to teachers of freshman comp when
TA's, adjuncts, and instructors are so much less expensive does not seem
to make economic sense to very many people.

The fact is that you can't get TA's, adjuncts, and instructors to teach
advanced seminars in Milton, etc.

That's part of the rationale. Unfortunately, snobbery comes in, also,
probably because some of us who now teach advanced seminars in Milton or
680 seminars in discourse analysis, etc. served our time teaching 3-4-5
sections of freshman English at a time back wehn we weren't making much
money. I actually taught a 15-hour course load at one time, and  two of
the sections were always comp.

That was not a good use of whatever talent and training I have. It is
simply not possible to teach 4-5 courses and do anything else at all.

Why don't we talk about what we think the high schools should be doing
that they are not? And why they are not doing it. Arguably, universities
should not have to be in the business of teaching native speakers of
American English to write English.

???

Bethany

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Mar 1998 to 25 Mar 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/25/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 23 Mar 1998 to 24 Mar 1998             98-03-25 00:00:21
This message contains more text than QuickMail can display. The entire message
 has been enclosed as a file.

There are 27 messages totalling 1273 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. RE>dubbing
  2. etymologies of surnames
  3. Blockbuster; Smiley; Sit-in
  4. "white coffee" (4)
  5. Wall Street Journal terms (continued)
  6. EuroEnglish (2)
  7. Taping tel. conv. (5)
  8. origin of "hopefully"
  9. Annoy those Yankees!  (fwd from a student) (2)
 10. seeking textbook advice
 11. ENGLISH IS TOUGH STUFF (3)
 12. Sit-in antedate
 13. Footbag or Hacky Sack?
 14. "divide and conquer"
 15. Banning words in class (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:30:27 -0600
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: RE>dubbing

>From: Daniel Long
>Isn't the word "dubbing" used these days in English to mean "recording
>from tape to tape"?
>When I came to Japan 15 years ago, I remember people using the word
>"dabingu" in this way, and my telling them that we didn't use the word
>that way in English, that we used it only in the sense of "dubbing"
>foreign films, etc.   But it seems that this new meaning is now common
>in English.  When did this usage first come about in English?  Could it
>be a semantic back-borrowing because of the Japanese influence of the
>recording device industry?  Any ideas?

I assumed that dubbing dialogue onto a film soundtrack was derived from the
other use.  W10 lists the film meaning first, dating it from 1930.

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Mar 1998 01:05:15 -0600
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: etymologies of surnames

I received this inquiry / request from Leslie Dunkling.  He does not
subscribe to ans-l at present, so please respond directly to him at

        Leslie Dunkling <106407.3560[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]compuserve.com>

He is hard at work on a book on surnames and would appreciate input asap.
I think many of you on the list know Leslie.


>I wonder whether you, your friends and colleagues, or (for example)
>fellow-members of the American Dialect Society, have done any research into
>your own family names. I am not concerned with genealogical data, only with
>onomastic research into what the names originally meant. I would very much
>like to hear of any such research, especially if it concerns names that
>originated in Britain. I would hope to mention it, with due
>acknowledgements,  in the Dictionary of Surnames I have been commissioned
>to prepare for HarperCollins. The dictionary is due to be published later
>this year and I shall be submitting the text in about three weeks, so there
>is a certain amount of urgency.

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Mar 1998 03:14:20 EST
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Blockbuster; Smiley; Sit-in

     I'll separate these from my posting of business terms.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
BLOCKBUSTER

     Did you see the Academy Awards?  Did you see the ad for Blockbuster
Video, with that dancing little baby statuette?
     The term "blockbuster" (or "block buster") dates in OED from 1942, when
WWII bombs were literally block busters.
     I don't know exactly when the term applied to big movies, but this is
from the Wall Street Journal, 25 February 1959, pg. 1, col. 1:

_Films for Foreigners_
U.S. Movie Makers
Boost Efforts to Woo
Overseas Audiences
  ---
They Shoot Special Versions,
  Dye Heroines' Hair, Plan
  More Color "Blockbusters"
 ---
The Aim:  A "Global Product"
(...)  But, for the most part, U.S. film makers are trying to turn out more of
a "global product" from the start.  Home-spun themes, such as stories based on
baseball or football, unless they can be made on low budgets, are giving way
to stories with wider appeal, such as those from the classics, or religious
epics.  More wide-screen, color "blockbusters" are headed for U.S. screens,
because scenery and action sit better with foreign audiences than a lot of
strange-tongued talk or dubbed dialogue.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
SMILEY

     Cecil Adams has covered the history of the smiley face in his "Straight
Dope" column (an archive is on AOL).  The yellow "Have a Nice Day" smiley
dates from about 1970, but there were earlier, similar ones in the 1960s.
     For those who have been to Hartford, CT, you may have seen the yellow
smiley on top of a building there, just a few blocks from the Mark Twain and
Harriet Beecher Stowe houses.  That smiley dates from the early 1960s.
     In the Wall Street Journal, 17 November 1958, pg. 10, cols.1-2, an ad for
St. Regis Paper (it ran on other dates also) shows "THE MANY FACES OF ST.
REGIS PLYWOOD."
     It's a smiley. :-)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
SIT-IN

     This is an historical antedate only.  I visited Greensboro, North
Carolina to do some research on the authors O. Henry and Albion Tourgee; the
local museum showed the famous Greensboro sit-in of 1960.  The Greensboro sit-
in's Woolworth's was then closed and, with more money, was scheduled to become
a civil rights museum.  I read that Greensboro's sit-in was the first and that
other cities followed.
     Not exactly.
     This is from the Wall Street Journal, 12 September 1958, pg. 1, col. 4:

Negroes Score Gains
In Oklahoma Eateries
With Sitdown Strikes
 ---
Some Restaurants Desegregate
  But Others Resist; Tactic
  May Spread to Other Cities
(...)

     I'll present more work on "sit-in" and "sitdown" later.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Mar 1998 00:17:02 -0800
From:    Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: "white coffee"

>I grew up in NY, ordering "regular coffee," meaning coffee with milk and
>sugar.

That's how I recall it.  If you wanted something else, you'd specify no
sugar, or black, or light - meaning extra milk (or half & half).
>
>Since he'd raised some lexical issues, I took the opportunity to ask him
>about chaise lounges (which we prounounced to rhyme with Shays,
>prounouncing the initial sound as in chocolate).  While I use the term to
>mean any patio furniture on which I can stretch out my legs, he uses
>"lounge chair" for the folding kind and "chaise lounge" for the wrought
>iron kind, or any non-folding lounge chair.

I remember hearing it as rhyming with says and starting with sh for the
first word, but the second was plain old lounge.  A "lounge chair" was the
patio plastic kind, but a chaise lounge was a piece of indoor furniture,
upholstered.

Rima

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Mar 1998 03:18:13 EST
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Wall Street Journal terms (continued)

     Business affects everybody.  One day, say, you're editing a dictionary of
American slang, and then the next day you wake up to "GERMANS BUY RANDOM
HOUSE," and you're asked to edit the entire Deutsches Worterbuch by tomorrow.
Bummer.
     About a week ago, I think Ron Butters posted someone's query about
business language.  An interesting book is BUSINESS BUZZWORDS:  EVERYTHING YOU
NEED TO KNOW TO SPEAK THE LINGO OF THE 90s (1995) by Charles B. Wendel &
Elaine Svensson and published by the American Management Association.  It's a
pretty good introduction, and even includes some Japanese words such as
"kanban" and "keiretsu."
     I finished another segment of my Wall Street Journal reading, so here
goes:

CREDIT CARD--The OED first entry is, surprisingly enough, from the 1888 Edward
Bellamy novel LOOKING BACKWARD.  Its next citation is 20 October 1958.
     In the WSJ, 12 August 1958, pg. 5, "American Express invites your
application for _the_ comprehensive credit card."  The ad mentions that the
new American Express Credit Card is "a natural supplement to the world-famous
American Express Travelers Cheque."  In the WSJ, 30 September 1958, pg. 13,
"Tomorrow, October 1, a new era in credit convenience opens for the American
public.  For tomorrow the new American Express Credit Card goes into effect
for its hundreds of thousands of members--becoming, on its very first day, the
most useful credit privilege ever made available."  It turns 40!...Diners'
Club was formed in 1950.

PRICE-EARNINGS RATIO--The OED has this from 1961, citing the Dallas Morning
News!  In the WSJ, 27 May 1959, pg. 16, col. 6, a review of the book A PRIMER
FOR PROFIT IN THE STOCK MARKET by Harry Kahn, Jr. mentions "computing stock
yields and price-earnings ratios and scouting industry potentialities."

TALENT--This was discussed on ADS-L some months ago.  The WSJ, 11 July 1958,
pg. 14, col. 2, states that television shows are "known in the trade as
'talent.'"  The headline on pg. 1, col. 1 is "Dickering on the Price Tags of
'Talent.'"

PRIME TIME--The same 11 July 1958, pg. 1, col. 1 article has "so-called prime
(highest-price) evening time, which usually means from 7:30 to 10:30, Eastern
time, give or take a half-hour."  The OED has 1964 for "prime time."

BANTAM SUPERMARKET--The WSJ, 16 April 1959, pg. 1, col. 4 headline is "The
Small Food Store Revives in New Form:  Bantam Supermarket/ Chains Spread in
Florida and Other States; They Offer Long Hours, Fast Service."  The article
notes that "Although the bantams are the result of an idea about 30 years old,
they've suddenly boomed in the past two or three years.  And their growth
promises to accelerate. (...) For a look at a typical store, visit one here in
Jacksonville operated by Seven Eleven Stores, Inc., a big Dallas chain.  As
the name implies, the market opens at 7 a.m. and closes at 11 p.m.  (Each
green-and-white store is decorated with a yellow rooster holding the red
figure 7 and a sprightly owl holding a green sign spelling out eleven.)"
     "Bantam supermarket" did not survive as a business term.  7-11 is now
open 24 hours.

CONVENIENCE FOOD--OED has 2 December 1961.  The WSJ, 27 October 1958, pg. 1,
col. 4, has "The new Wilson line is the latest development in the frozen food
industry's move toward 'convenience' foods."

CANDYGRAM--The WSJ, 30 January 1959, pg. 7 ad for Western Union announced that
"beginning today--you can send a CandyGram anywhere in the U.S.A."
     Except for the unabomber,  perhaps.

     There's more, but I'm titanic-ly tired.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:17:24 EST
From:    CLAndrus <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: EuroEnglish

I tried to send this piece from an a-drive document last week and it came
through gibberish. So, I'm taking the time out of a busy schedule to type the
whole thing. I hope you enjoy it. I found it in The Best of American Humor of
1994, edited by Moshe Waldoks, pub. by Simon & Schuster. It was listed under
miscellaneous and no author was listed.  Here goes:

   Having chosen English as the preferred language in the EEC, the European
Parliament has commissioned a feasbility study in way of improving efficient
in communications between Government departments.
   European officials have often pointed out that English spelling is
unnecessarily difficult; for example: cough plough, rough, through, and
thorough. What is clearly needed is a phased programme of changes to iron out
these anomalies. The programme would, of course, be administered by a
committee staff at top level by participating nations.
   In the first year, for example, the committee would suggest using 's'
instead of the soft 'c'. Sertainly, sivil servants in all sites would reseive
this news with joy. Then the hard 'c' could be replaced by 'k' sinse both
letters are pronounsed alike. Not only would this klear up konfusion in the
minds of klerikal workers, but typewriters kould be made with one less letter.
   There would be growing enthusiasm when in the sekond year, it was anounsed
that the troublesome 'ph' would henseforth be written 'f'.
   This would make words like 'fotograf' twenty per sent shorter in print.
  In the third year, publik akseptanse of the new spelling kan be expekted to
reatsh the stage where more komplikated tshanges are possible. Governments
would enkourage the removal of double letters which have always been a
deterent  to akirate speling.
   We would al agre that the horible mes of silent 'e's in the languag is
disgrasful. Therfor we kould drop thes and kontinu to read and writ as though
nothing had hapend. By this tim it would be four years sins the skem began and
peopl would be reseptiv to steps sutch as replacing "th" by "z". Perhaps zen
ze funktion of 'w' kould be taken on by 'v', vitsh is, after al, half a 'w'.
Shortly after zis, ze unesesary 'o' kould be dropd from words kontaining 'ou'.
Similar arguments vud of kors be aplid to ozer kombinations of leters.
   Kontinuing zis proses yer after yer, ve vue eventuli hav a reli sensibl
riten styl. After tventi yers zer vud be no more trublsm difikultis and
everivun vud fin it ezi tu understand etsh ozer. Ze drems of Mr. Orvel vud
finali hav kum tru.

TRY RUNNING THIS THROUGH SPELLCHECK!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:17:48 -0500
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Taping tel. conv.

Is anyone an expert at taping telephone conversations? Legally, that is?

I am going to interview a person by telephone on Friday a.m. -- she has
given me permission to tape the call.

I have a junky little pickup from Radio Shack that's about 15 years old.
What would be best to use? That's not tres cher?

Thanks,
Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:25:58 -0500
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Re: EuroEnglish

On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, CLAndrus wrote:

> I tried to send this piece from an a-drive document last week

What in the world is an "a-drive document"?

Thanks,
Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Mar 1998 12:42:58 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: Re: "white coffee"

For many years I was not a coffee-drinker. But by the time I started to
drink it, I had read about the different interpretations of "regular" in
different parts of the country enough times, over a long enough span of
years, to avoid the term altogether. Wherever I am, I ask for my coffee
with "milk, no sugar". I have never had a problem with that.

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:18:53 -0500
From:    jerry miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>
Subject: Re: Taping tel. conv.

Bethany: Don't know that I would call myself an expert, but, as a long-time
journalist, among other things, I have had to deal with this question a lot.
It is my understanding that it depends to a large extent on what state you
are in. In some states, the law is of the "two-party" variety -- that is to
say, both parties must be aware the conversation is being taped. Then there
are "one-party" laws in some states, like Indiana here, that say only one
party must be aware of the taping.
     But, to further confuse the situation, there are states like Maryland
-- and this is what muddied the whole Linda Tripp situation -- that say both
parties must be aware BUT, if the party doing the taping isn't aware of that
law then he/she is off the hook (so to speak) -- creating an "ignorance of
the law IS an excuse" situation!
     The best bet, always, is to get the interviewee to sign a
consent/release form.
     Also, I have a taping mechanism that hooks directly onto the phone
wires (alligator clips), which is much preferable to the type that sticks on
the outside of the headset. Can't remember where I got it, though.
     Hope this has been of some help.

Jerry Miller

P.S. Federal law, I believe, takes the "two-party" approach, but I can't
tell you what that means for you (perhaps that covers inter-state calls, but
I'm not sure).

At 12:17 PM 3/24/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Is anyone an expert at taping telephone conversations? Legally, that is?
>
>I am going to interview a person by telephone on Friday a.m. -- she has
>given me permission to tape the call.
>
>I have a junky little pickup from Radio Shack that's about 15 years old.
>What would be best to use? That's not tres cher?
>
>Thanks,
>Bethany
>
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:22:33 -0500
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Taping tel. conv.

Thanks, Jerry. I have no legal concerns.

I am strictly interested in achieving the best quality tape.

Best,
Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:34:13 -0500
From:    carissa <cab67[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COLUMBIA.EDU>
Subject: origin of "hopefully"

The Oxford English Dictionary lists the first appearance of the word
"hopefully" (meaning "it is hoped") as January 24, 1932 in the New York
Times Book Review.  Do you know of any earlier usage or any other sources
where I might research this?

Thank you,
Carissa

carissa byrne
columbia college, class of 1999
cab67[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]columbia.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:34:10 -0800
From:    Peter Richardson <prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: Annoy those Yankees!  (fwd from a student)

> I think they turned it into a Amoco. Or maybe a BP. Anyway, turn right
> there..." "You said left." "Did I?  Well, turn left there and follow it
> until you see a big fish on your left. I remember when that fish used to
> be on the other side of town..."
Don't forget to add: "Remember that red light I told you about? Well, it
might be green."

> 24. Ask them if it's still snowing up North.
As I recall, "It's snowing down south" means "Your slip is showing." I
wonder whether "It's snowing up north" means something analogous...

Peter

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Mar 1998 10:37:23 -0800
From:    Peter Richardson <prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: "white coffee"

> coffee black. After six weeks in NYC in 1986, I came home
> addicted to half and half. It took me weeks to get back to "normal."
When I first penetrated that part of the country I was asked whether I
wanted my coffee "regular." "Yes," I responded, imagining a nice cup of
black coffee. It came with milk, of course, and the serverpersonmensch
insisted that was indeed "regular."

PR

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:41:32 -0500
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Annoy those Yankees!  (fwd from a student)

On Tue, 24 Mar 1998, Peter Richardson wrote:

> Don't forget to add: "Remember that red light I told you about? Well, it
> might be green."

Yes. And NEVER NEVER say "traffic light" or "traffic signal" or even
"green light." It's always "red light," preferably with the stress on
red. Front stress also on guitar and police, which should be worked
into the directions.

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Mar 1998 13:49:26 -0500
From:    "Jeutonne P. Brewer" <jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: "white coffee"

In the early 60s I lived in New Jersey for about three years.
One of the first things I had to learn was to order my ocffee
without milk. If I just ordered coffee, I received
coffee with milk. There was no need for "regular" or "white
coffee" terms. Coffee with milk was regular. Anything else
was a special order.

Jeutonne Brewer


**********************************************
Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor
Department of English
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
Greensboro, NC 27412
email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu
URL:   http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer
***********************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Ma
======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/24/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 22 Mar 1998 to 23 Mar 1998             98-03-24 00:00:21
This message contains more text than QuickMail can display. The entire message
 has been enclosed as a file.

There are 26 messages totalling 1230 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. "of" everywhere?
  2. Charm City (Baltimore)
  3. So much for the transitive form of this verb
  4. dubbing
  5. RE>dubbing (5)
  6. "white coffee" (3)
  7. RE>Re: Annoy those Yankees! (fwd from a student)
  8. seeking textbook advice (2)
  9. Zen as a Name for All Wisdom
 10. RE>Re: RE>Re: Annoy those Yankees! (fwd from a student)
 11. "divide and conquer"
 12. Emma Thompson's jaw
 13. "of" everywhere
 14. High school grammar textbook: summary
 15. TV Dialogue standards
 16. Tech: Email formats in this list
 17. ADS at SAMLA Call for Papers (2)
 18. X rated TV, Airline dialogue

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Mar 1998 23:18:47 -0800
From:    Devon Coles <dcoles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HORIZON.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: "of" everywhere?

>> Au contraire, mon frere! There's nothing "universal" about Esperanto -
>> unless your definition of the universe is Western Europe.
>
M. Lynne Murphy responded:

>actually, i used to get a lot of news of the esperanto movement in
>china...
>

No one denies that Esperanto is widely spoken about. However, the point of
my comment was that the origin of Esperanto is exclusive to Western European
languages. You won't find a heck of a lot of Chinese morphemes nestled in
its so-called "universal" grammar and lexicon.

Devon Coles
dcoles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]horizon.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Mar 1998 05:14:53 EST
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Charm City (Baltimore)

     In the March 15, 1998 AMERICAN WAY in-flight magazine, page 50 begins
"Round the Clock In Baltimore:  The people you'll meet are as entertaining as
the sights you'll see while racing the clock in Charm City."
     Charm City?  Not Monumental City?
     Well, we've done "the Big Apple" (New York), "the Windy City" (Chicago),
"Beantown" (Boston), "Hotlanta" (Atlanta), and "Magic City" (Miami).  The
sixth time's the charm.
     In the AMERICAN THESAURUS OF SLANG, not a single city was a "Charm City."
Even recent books I have on names (ALL THOSE WONDERFUL NAMES, for example)
don't have "Charm City."  It's not in DARE, RHHDAS, OED.
     Here goes:

1998 (Baltimore)--FINDING CHARM IN CHARM CITY:  AFFECTIONATE VIEWS OF
BALTIMORE by Huguette D. May.
1997 (Baltimore)--CHARM CITY by Laura Lippman.
1997 (Baltimore)--BALTIMORE:  THE CHARM CITY by Dan Rodricks.
1995 (Baltimore)--TOUR DU PORT, ROUTE HIGHLIGHTS: THE NITTY-GRITTY OF CHARM
CITY.
1993 (Milan)--MILANO:  A CITY AND ITS CHARM by Mario De Biasi.
1993 (Fayetteville)--FAYETTEVILLE:  CITY OF HISTORIC CHARM AND MODERN PROGRESS
by Lula B. MacKethan.
1992 (Baltimore)--BALTIMORE'S GRAND INQUISITION:  1000 TRIVIA ABOUT CHARM CITY
by Jerome Cohen (not to be confused with Gerald Cohen).
1992 (San Antonio)--SAN ANTONIO:  A CITY OF BEAUTY AND CHARM.
1991 (Cincinnati)--CINCINNATI:  THE CITY OF CHARM by Nick Clooney.
1989 (Adelaide)--ADELAIDE:  CITY OF CHARM by Barbara Turney.
1988 (De Pere, Wis.)--DE PERE, WISCONSIN:  THE CITY OF HISTORIC CHARM.
1987 (Fremantle)--TRADITION AND CHARM:  THE PORT CITY OF FREMANTLE, WESTERN
AUSTRALIA by John A. Maslin.
1987 (Oxnard, Calif.)--ART, FESTIVALS & OLD TIME CHARM IN OXNARD by Kathleen
A. Burris.
1986 (Baltimore)--CHARM CITY SURVIVAL:  A GUIDE TO BALTIMORE FOR BUSY PARENTS
AND PARENTS TO BE by Mary Cronin-Furman.
1978 (Avon Park, Fla.)--AVON PARK:  CENTRAL FLORIDA'S CITY OF CHARM by Hal
Schuler.
1978 (Alpine, Tex.)--CITY OF ALPINE, WITH THE CHARM OF THE PAST AND THE
PROMISE OF THE FUTURE, PRESENT COMMUNITY DEVELOPMENT BLOCK GRANT 1978 PRE-
APPLICATION.
1978 (Charleston)--CHARLESTON, CITY OF CHARM:  A GUIDE TO AMERICA'S MOST
HISTORIC CITY by Fred L. Bernstein.
1973 (Charleston)--CHARLESTON:  CITY OF CHARM by Jack Leland.
1967 (Montreal)--MONTREAL:  CITY OF CHARM.
1967 (Bundaberg, Queensland)--100 YEARS YOUNG:  BUNDABERG, THE CITY OF CHARM
1867-1967.
1965 (Bundaberg, Queensland)--BUNDABERG:  CITY OF CHARM.
1964 (Rotterdam)--ROTTERDAM:  CITY OF UNUSUAL CHARM.
1962 (New Orleans)--CHARM CAPITAL OF THE WORLD by Pendleton Hogan.
1962 (New Ulm, Minn.)--NEW ULM, MINNESOTA:  CITY OF CHARM, TRADITION, AND
GROWTH.
1961 (La Paz, Mexico)--LA PAZ:  CITY OF PEACE, CHARM AND FABULOUS FISHING by
Pat Stein.
1960 (Escondido)--ESCONDIDO AND VICINITY:  WELCOME TO ESCONDIDO, A CITY WHOSE
CHARM IS SURPASSED ONLY BY ITS FRIENDLINESS.
1959 (St. David's)--ONCE IN ROYAL DAVID'S CITY:  A BRIEF HISTORY OF THE
PEMBROKSHIRE VILLAGE OF ST. DAVID'S, THE LAST ROMAN STATION OF MENEVIA
(STORIES FROM "THE LAND OF CHARM AND MAGIC") by Eric Freeman
1953 (New Ulm, Minn.)--NEW ULM, MINNESOTA:  CITY OF CHARM, TRADITION, AND
PROGRESS.
1951 (New Orleans)--NEW ORLEANS FROM A TO Z:  QUESTIONS YOU'LL ASK ABOUT THIS
CITY OF CHARM AND ITS FAMOUS FRENCH QUARTER by Ray M. Thompson.
1947 (Dallas)--DALLAS:  THE CITY WITH THE CHARM OF YESTERDAY AND THE SPIRIT OF
TOMORROW.
1941 (New Ulm, Minn.)--NEW ULM, MINNESOTA:  CITY OF CHARM AND TRADITION.
1940 (Mexico City)--ALONG THE ROADS OF ROMANCE LAND:  AN ILLUSTRATED GUIDE TO
SOME OF THE CHARM SPOTS IN AND AROUND MEXICO CITY WHICH CAN BE READILY REACHED
BY THE MOTORIST.
1937 (Annapolis)--COLONIAL ANNAPOLIS:  CITY OF CHARM by Oliver Martin.
1932 (New Orleans)--NEW ORLEANS:  THE CITY OF PROGRESS, BEAUTY, CHARM AND
ROMANCE.
1931 (Bristol)--BRISTOL:  A CITY OF CHARM IN A BEAUTIFUL SETTING.
1931 (Baltimore)--BALTIMORE:  STORIES ABOUT BALTIMORE WRITTEN BY PERSONS WHO
HAVE SEEN THE CITY NOT AS A GROUP OF BUILDINGS OR AS AN AGGREGATION OF HUMAN
BEINGS, BUT RATHER AS A VISION OF THE SOUL OF BALTIMORE--THE SPIRIT THAT BUILT
ITS BUILDINGS, MADE ITS HOMES, CARRIES ON ITS COMMERCE AND EMBODIES THE CHARM
OF ITS COLONIAL HOSPITALITY by the Baltimore Association of Commerce.
1929 (New Orleans)--NEW ORLEANS:  CITY OF ROMANCE AND OLD WORLD CHARM.
1928 (Charleston)--THE CHARM OF OLD CHARLESTON:  A NEW WORLD CITY OF OLD WORLD
MEMORIES.
1927 (Havana)--SOUVENIR OF HAVANA, CUBA:  THE CITY OF CHARM.
1927 (New Orleans)--THE CHARM CITY by Kenneth L. Roberts.
1923 (McComb, Miss.)--A GLIMPSE AT THE LAND WHERE THE MAGNOLIA BLOOMS:  BEING
A DESCRIPTION OF THE RESOURCES AND ADVANTAGES OF SOUTHWEST MISSISSIPPI, THE
OPPORTUNITIES AND POSSIBILITIES OF PIKE COUNTY, AND THE INDUSTRIALISM,
IDEALISM AND CHARM OF THE CITY OF MCCOMB by Charles Elmer Foote.
1921 (Monterey, Calif.)--MONTEREY, A HOME CITY "THE FAIREST AMONG TEN
THOUSAND":  WONDERFUL BEAUTY, DELIGHTFUL CLIMATE, ROMANTIC HISTORY, ALLURING
CHARM.
1921 (Charleston)--CHARM OF CHARLESTON:  A CITY OF PERSONALITY AND REFINEMENT.
1915 (Bloomington, Ill.)--BLOOMINGTON, ILLINOIS:  CHARM CITY OF THE CORN
COUNTRY.
1915 (Bombay)--THE CHARM OF BOMBAY:  AN ANTHOLOGY OF WRITINGS IN PRAISE OF THE
FIRST CITY OF INDIA.
1905 (Springfield, Mass.)--SPRINGFIELD PRESENT AND PROSPECTIVE:  THE CITY OF
HOMES, THE SOURCE OF ITS CHARM, ITS ADVANTAGES, ACHIEVEMENTS, AND
POSSIBILITIES, PORTRAYED IN WORD AND PICTURE by James Eaton Tower.

      That's a lot of charm.  Where's the magic?
      Cities _grow_ like "magic."  When they're _old_, they have "charm."
      THE AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN QUOTATIONS has this on page
87 for Baltimore:

The old charm, in truth, still survives in the town, despite the frantic
efforts of the boosters and boomers.
      --H. L. MENCKEN, _Prejudices: Fifth Series_, 1926.

     Aha!  Named by a member of the American Dialect Society!!!!
     When visiting Charm City, go to Mencken's home.  He's still there (O.K.,
an actor plays him), and he'll ask you if you're "university trained."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Mar 1998 07:54:59 -0500
From:    "Daniel R. Melamed" <daniel.melamed[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: So much for the transitive form of this verb

On a recent exam in my basic music history course, I asked students to
write about an early 19th-century critic's colorful description of a
performance by the violin virtuoso Paganini.  The translated quotation
read, in part:

"Is this a living being who wishes to delight his audience at the moment of
his dissolution in the art-arena with his last quivering gasp, like a dying
gladiator?  Or is it a corpse that has risen from the grave--a vampire, who
would suck, if not the blood from our hearts, at least the money from our
pockets?"

One student wrote in response:

"The performer may "delight" or "suck" but either way entertain."

In this view, the performer might not "suck blood . . ." or "suck money . .
." but merely "suck."  This suggests that some people don't look for a
direct object of "suck" used this way.  Maybe that's why it is no longer
necessarily considered obscene--an implied off-color object ("That sucks [
]") doesn't even figure in (younger?) people's use of the phrase.







Daniel R. Melamed
Department of Music, Yale University
daniel.melamed[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu
http://pantheon.cis.yale.edu/~melamed
(203) 432-2985    fax: (203) 287-9820

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Mar 1998 22:00:32 +0900
From:    Daniel Long <dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP>
Subject: dubbing

Isn't the word "dubbing" used these days in English to mean "recording
from tape to tape"?
When I came to Japan 15 years ago, I remember people using the word
"dabingu" in this way, and my telling them that we didn't use the word
that way in English, that we used it only in the sense of "dubbing"
foreign films, etc.   But it seems that this new meaning is now common
in English.  When did this usage first come about in English?  Could it
be a semantic back-borrowing because of the Japanese influence of the
recording device industry?  Any ideas?

Danny Long
--
Daniel Long, Associate Professor    NEW tel  +81-6-723-8297
Japanese Language Research Center   NEW fax  +81-6-723-8302
Osaka Shoin Women's College         dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp
4-2-26 Hishiyanishi                 http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/
Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:58:57 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: RE>dubbing

Guesswork and thoughts on "dubbing":

1. It's been five years since I worked in radio, but the term "dubbing" is
 omnipresent there, to mean "making a copy to magnetic tape." The source media
 is irrelevant, as long it's not live. If it's live, you're just taping or
 recording it.

2. I now work in advertising, and my peers seem to use "dubbing" to mean "make
 an exact copy from one tape to another" usally referring to video. Side note:
 they still use "reel" to indicate an archive of television commercials we've
 done, even though they are now stored on half-inch or three-quarter video
 cassettes rather than film reels.

3. Every dual cassette deck I know has a manual or buttons that use "dub" or
 "dubbing"  to indicate the process of copying one tape to another.

4. Reggae music has an interesting use of the word "dubbing" to mean something
 like "freestyle rhyming over a beat track or repeated musical theme." This is
 more likely to be found in "dancehall reggae" and "ragamuffin." See the works
 of Lee Scratch Perry whose "dub beats" are hard to top.

5. I have a feeling (whoop! whoop! guess alert!) that we're not talking about a
 case of back-borrowing here. If we could get ahold of a user's manual from any
 dual-deck magnetic tape device from the early days of the technology, I suspect
 we will find the word "dub" in some form there.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

--------------------------------------
Date: 3/23/98 8:25 AM
To: Grant Barrett
From: Daniel Long
Isn't the word "dubbing" used these days in English to mean "recording
from tape to tape"?
When I came to Japan 15 years ago, I remember people using the word
"dabingu" in this way, and my telling them that we didn't use the word
that way in English, that we used it only in the sense of "dubbing"
foreign films, etc.   But it seems that this new meaning is now common
in English.  When did this usage first come about in English?  Could it
be a semantic back-borrowing because of the Japanese influence of the
recording device industry?  Any ideas?

Danny Long
--
Daniel Long, Associate Professor    NEW tel  +81-6-723-8297
Japanese Language Research Center   NEW fax  +81-6-723-8302
Osaka Shoin Women's College         dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp
4-2-26 Hishiyanishi                 http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/
Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:25:07 -0500
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: RE>dubbing

At 09:58 AM 3/23/98 -0500, Grant Barrett wrote:
>Guesswork and thoughts on "dubbing":
>
>1. It's been five years since I worked in radio, but the term "dubbing" is
omnipresent there, to mean "making a copy to magnetic tape." The source
media is irrelevant, as long it's not live. If it's live, you're just taping
or recording it.
>

I knew folks in radio and the recording biz in college in the later 70s;
"dub" was already well-established then (Ann Arbor, MI).


>2. I now work in advertising, and my peers seem to use "dubbing" to mean
"make an exact copy from one tape to another" usally referring to video.
Side note: they still use "reel" to indicate an archive of television
commercials we've done, even though they are now stored on half-inch or
three-quarter video cassettes rather than film reels.
>

I suppose everyone knows that "dub" is short for "double" -- at least, that
was the way it was explained to me, and so saith OED2.


>4. Reggae music has an interesting use of the word "dubbing" to mean
something like "freestyle rhyming over a beat track or repeated musical
theme." This is more likely to be found in "dancehall reggae" and
"ragamuffin." See the works of Lee Scratch Perry whose "dub beats" are hard
to top.
>

This maybe grows out of the idea of "overdubbing," which is a recording term
for building up and fleshing out a piece of recorded music by adding
multiple tracks on the same tape or on the same soundboard. It's the kind of
technique you see on (e.g.) Phil Spector records from the early sixties, and
became a standard technique on almost all pop recordings from the mid/later
60s onwards (64-track recording, etc.). The reggae term is a specialization
of the earlier idea.


>5. I have a feeling (whoop! whoop! guess alert!) that we're not talking
about a case of back-borrowing here. If we could get ahold of a user's
manual from any dual-deck magnetic tape device from the early days of the
technology, I suspect we will find the word "dub" in some form there.
>

Yes, I would suspect "dub" as a music-creation technique goes back to at
least the fifties; you can hear the technique on a number of recordings from
that period. As a term for simple copying of a recording, who knows how far
back it goes? OED dub v.5 has a first cite from 1929. The word is used for a
number of different copying techniques in the various OED cites.

Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Mar 1998 09:30:59 +0000
From:    Lynne Murphy <M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU>
Subject: Re: RE>dubbing

well, this doesn't answer the question about the origin of 'dubbing',
but...

there's a nice little article ("read my lips" by michael gross) in the 7
june 1997 issue of _new scientist_ that argues that dubbed movies should
be banned because of the mcgurk effect.  i've got it on our linguistics
bulletin board here to show my students that there are indeed practical
applications of linguistic research.

lynne
--

M. Lynne Murphy
Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English
Baylor University
PO Box 97404
Waco, TX 76798

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Mar 1998 11:03:00 -0500
From:    Susan-Marie Harrington <sharrin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IUPUI.EDU>
Subject: Re: "white coffee"

I grew up in NY, ordering "regular coffee," meaning coffee with milk and
sugar.  My father mentioned this term on the phone last night, actually,
and I asked him some more about it, and he said that these days he
sometimes hears people ordering "regular coffee with sugar" (which he
thinks is redundant" or "regular coffee without sugar" (which he said
"isn't really a regular coffee, but they do get what they want").

Since he'd raised some lexical issues, I took the opportunity to ask him
about chaise lounges (which we prounounced to rhyme with Shays,
prounouncing the initial sound as in chocolate).  While I use the term to
mean any patio furniture on which I can stretch out my legs, he uses
"lounge chair" for the folding kind and "chaise lounge" for the wrought
iron kind, or any non-folding lounge chair.

Susanmarie Harrington                                sharrin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]iupui.edu
Indiana University-Purdue University,Indianapolis    (317) 278-1153
Dept. of English, 425 University Boulevard           fax: (317) 274-2347
Indianapolis IN 46202-5140

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Mar 1998 10:24:30 -0600
From:    Bonnie Briggs <BBRIGGS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMIN2.MEMPHIS.EDU>
Subject: Re: RE>Re: Annoy those Yankees! (fwd from a student)

Something in those first 25 suggestions must have struck a nerve - either that
or ya'll are humor-deprived - "Ask if they've ever seen a UFO?????"

Bonnie Briggs
The University of Memphis

> More how to annoy those Southenehs:
>
> 5. Call all Southern men "boy."
> 6. When you hear a banjo, shout "Squeal like a pig, boy, squeal like a pig!"
> 7. When they begin a sentence with "why" even though they're not asking a
 question, respond to the "why" as if they were.
> 8. Don't let them continue their turn shooting pool aftering sinking a sloppy
 shot unless they called the ball in the pocket first.
> 9. Ask if they've ever seen a UFO.
> 10. If you're inviting them to a nice party, ask them not to wear white patent
 leather loafers.
> 11. Make the jukebox skip on The King, Lynyrd Skynyrd or Stevie Ray Vaughn.
> 12. When you meet a Southerner's cousin, wink and say, "Kinda cute, huh?"
>
>
> (This reminds me of the comedian Jerry Clower who told a story about the city
 slicker who come up on a farmer planting corn. The rows were all wavy, jerkin
 this way and that, pretty much contour tilling with an emphasis on countour.
>
> The city slicker says, "Your rows are all crooked."
>
> Farmer says, "Yep."
>
> "Well, why in the world would you want to plant corn in crooked rows?"
>
> "You can plant just much corn in a crooked row as you can in a straight one."
>
> City slickers says,"Well, there's not much separating you from a jackass, is
 there?"
>
> "Nothin but a fence."
>
> In Jerry Clower's stories, the farmer or good ol' boy always represented the
 South and the city clicker always represented the North.)
>
> --------------------------------------
> On Sun, 22 Mar 1998, Daniel Long started a list to be called "Annoy Those
 Southenehs":
> > 1.  Use "y'all" even when you're talking to only one person.
> > 2.  Refer to mixed or female groups as "you guys".
>
> Bethany added:
>
> 3. Ask if they want "white coffee."
> 4. Give all directions with reference only to north, south, east, and west
> -- never mention landmarks.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Mar 1998 08:45:29 -0800
From:    Peter Richardson <prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: seeking textbook advice

I think we have to be careful about hoping that a grammar book--any
grammar book--will be the panacea that will enable us to "teach writing,
not grammar." If anything, the last few decades of research in English
composition have revealed that there is very little transfer of skill from
grammar-based exercises to the writing of essays. College faculties around
the country have mistakenly thought that a one-semester course in freshman
composition would enable students to iron out the last little cobwebs and
stride forth into writing tasks throughout the curriculum with mature
writing--and thinking--habits. Wrong. We all need to teach writing
======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/23/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 21 Mar 1998 to 22 Mar 1998             98-03-23 00:00:28
There are 9 messages totalling 226 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. METHODS (3)
  2. "white coffee"
  3. "divide and conquer"
  4. RE>Re: Annoy those Yankees! (fwd from a student)
  5. "of" everywhere? (3)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 21 Mar 1998 19:52:57 -0800
From:    Salikoko Mufwene <s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU>
Subject: Re: METHODS

At 05:09 PM 3/21/98 EST, you wrote:
>Does anyone remember when and where the next METHODS conference will take
>place? Now that Alan Thomas has published the proceedings from the last
>conference, I'm reminded that it is time to start thinking about the next
one.
>
I think that Sandra Clark, at St. John's, New Foundland, was making
arrangements to host the conference in August 1999. Or will this be the one
after what Ron is getting ready for?

Sali.


*******************************************************
Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu
University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
Department of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
*******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Mar 1998 07:46:06 -0500
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: "white coffee"

Someone else asked, so I'll post to the list:

> > 3. Ask if they want "white coffee."
> What is this?  Coffee with milk?

In NYC, it's coffee with cream (half and half). I don't think New Yawkers
put milk in coffee unless they are quietly on a diet. I normally drink
coffee black. After six weeks in NYC in 1986, I came home
addicted to half and half. It took me weeks to get back to "normal."

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Mar 1998 11:13:06 -0500
From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
Subject: "divide and conquer"

  Last week I was asked about the origin of "divide and conquer." I checked
E. Cobham Brewer's _The Dictionary of Phrase and Fable_ and found "DIVIDE
AND GOVERN,"  given as a maxim of Machavelli's.

   Is "DIVIDE AND GOVERN" the same as "DIVIDE AND CONQUER?"  Do these two
expressions represent merely two different translations of the underlying
Italian expression used by Machiavelli?  Might anyone be able to clarify
this matter?

--Gerald Cohen



gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:59:05 EST
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: METHODS

Thanks, Sali! And will this be in 1999?

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:52:06 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: RE>Re: Annoy those Yankees! (fwd from a student)

More how to annoy those Southenehs:

5. Call all Southern men "boy."
6. When you hear a banjo, shout "Squeal like a pig, boy, squeal like a pig!"
7. When they begin a sentence with "why" even though they're not asking a
 question, respond to the "why" as if they were.
8. Don't let them continue their turn shooting pool aftering sinking a sloppy
 shot unless they called the ball in the pocket first.
9. Ask if they've ever seen a UFO.
10. If you're inviting them to a nice party, ask them not to wear white patent
 leather loafers.
11. Make the jukebox skip on The King, Lynyrd Skynyrd or Stevie Ray Vaughn.
12. When you meet a Southerner's cousin, wink and say, "Kinda cute, huh?"


(This reminds me of the comedian Jerry Clower who told a story about the city
 slicker who come up on a farmer planting corn. The rows were all wavy, jerkin
 this way and that, pretty much contour tilling with an emphasis on countour.

The city slicker says, "Your rows are all crooked."

Farmer says, "Yep."

"Well, why in the world would you want to plant corn in crooked rows?"

"You can plant just much corn in a crooked row as you can in a straight one."

City slickers says,"Well, there's not much separating you from a jackass, is
 there?"

"Nothin but a fence."

In Jerry Clower's stories, the farmer or good ol' boy always represented the
 South and the city clicker always represented the North.)

--------------------------------------
On Sun, 22 Mar 1998, Daniel Long started a list to be called "Annoy Those
 Southenehs":
> 1.  Use "y'all" even when you're talking to only one person.
> 2.  Refer to mixed or female groups as "you guys".

Bethany added:

3. Ask if they want "white coffee."
4. Give all directions with reference only to north, south, east, and west
-- never mention landmarks.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Mar 1998 13:25:07 EST
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: "of" everywhere?

In a message dated 3/21/98 11:17:54 PM, you wrote:

<<I vote for catchall prepositions.  As a struggling Spanish learner, I want
to use "de" everywhere, occ. maybe "a'".  Let's do it for all languages
with prepostions.  Sort of universal creolization>>

it is called "Esperanto"

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Mar 1998 12:52:39 -0800
From:    Salikoko Mufwene <s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU>
Subject: Re: METHODS

At 12:59 PM 3/22/98 EST, you wrote:
>Thanks, Sali! And will this be in 1999?
>
This is what I remember from correspondence from Sandra Clark a couple of
months ago. I remember thinking of the conflict it could pose for people
attending the LSA summer institute, although the date is toward the end of,
if not right after, the institute. I will have to double check that piece
of mail in my office tomorrow.

Sali.

*******************************************************
Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu
University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
Department of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
*******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Mar 1998 16:54:26 -0800
From:    Devon Coles <dcoles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HORIZON.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: "of" everywhere?

>In a message dated 3/21/98 11:17:54 PM, you wrote:
>
><<I vote for catchall prepositions.  As a struggling Spanish learner, I
want
>to use "de" everywhere, occ. maybe "a'".  Let's do it for all languages
>with prepostions.  Sort of universal creolization>>
>
>it is called "Esperanto"

Au contraire, mon frere! There's nothing "universal" about Esperanto -
unless your definition of the universe is Western Europe.

Cheers,
Devon Coles
dcoles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]horizon.bc.ca
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Mar 1998 18:54:36 +0000
From:    Lynne Murphy <M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU>
Subject: Re: "of" everywhere?

Devon Coles wrote:
> Au contraire, mon frere! There's nothing "universal" about Esperanto -
> unless your definition of the universe is Western Europe.


actually, i used to get a lot of news of the esperanto movement in
china...

--

M. Lynne Murphy
Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English
Baylor University
PO Box 97404
Waco, TX 76798

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Mar 1998 to 22 Mar 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/22/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 20 Mar 1998 to 21 Mar 1998             98-03-22 00:00:16
This message contains more text than QuickMail can display. The entire message
 has been enclosed as a file.

There are 17 messages totalling 619 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. standardization of non-standard forms (2)
  2. Emma Thompson's jaw (2)
  3. The Burial of "ALLELUIA" (3)
  4. TV Dialogue standards (3)
  5. indirect speech acts
  6. Annoy those Yankees!  (fwd from a student) (3)
  7. METHODS (2)
  8. "of" everywhere?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Mar 1998 23:54:38 -0600
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: standardization of non-standard forms

Just adding local data that surrounds me daily.  In local speech, it's

        "chase lounge" (most often referring to patio furniture)
        "bedroom suit" (term of art for local auctioneers and 'old
             family' furniture salesmen and store owners.  Gendered
             'salesMEN' was a conscious choice of words.)

"Bedroom suit" was also used by auctioneers and furniture salesmen in
and around Lafayette/West Lafayette, Indiana 25 or 30 years ago.

DeKalb, Illinois is about 60 miles due west of downtown Chicago.  The
community splits socially into three groups: town, gown, and farm make
good suggestive labels.  What I report here is the speech of town and
farm. I often hear university people make fun of these specific items
in  local speech.

Adults whose family roots in the county go back for more than a
generation generally orient away from Chicago: their big city tends to
be Rockford, Illinois.  Basic speech patterns are distinctly NOT
Chicagoan.  (Academics, OTOH, look to Chicago, its concerts, museums,
plays, and stores, rather than Rockford.)  It no longer surprises me to
be so close to Chicago and hear what I used to think of as southern
regionalisms in normal local speech.  What was at fault was my own
simple view of dialect geography, which is lots more complex than I used
to think.

Example:  Despite the occurence of lots of items that I once thought of
as "southern", DeKalb joins northern speech in rhyming the  first
syllable of "any", "many", "penny" with "hen" and "men".  Lafayette,
Indiana is south of that dividing line, in dialect, and rhymes those
words with "skinny".  (Their first syllable rhymes with "pin" or
"thin".)

I suggest that "southern" may be the wrong label here.  A lot of
so-called southern words and ways of pronouncing words of wider
distribution are common right here in northern Illinois.  (I even
remember hearing a TV announcer advertising "bedroom suits" on KSTP-TV,
up in Minneapolis/Saint Paul.)

Maybe "rural" (or "rural Midwest") might better fit the facts.

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 21 Mar 1998 00:44:45 -0600
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Emma Thompson's jaw

Linda McMillan  lindi[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netnitco.com  asked:

> This brings to mind another question: I have a friend who was born in
> Russia and came to the U.S. when she was about 9 or 10, I think.  She
> claims that the reason she has such an evident accent is because her jaw
> was already set by that age for speaking Russian.  Any evidence to support
> her claim?

I don't know what "setting one's jaw" might be.

What I DO know is that when I began studying linguistics, I had trouble
with a British linguist's description of "normal" English points of
articulation. (Could it have been Jones?)  It just didn't square with
what I saw in my hand mirror as  I articulated what should have been
apical stops -- the ones normally spelled with "t" and "d".  According
to the textbook, these are done by the tongue tip.  I noticed that in my
own speech there was free variation between that articulation and
another, in which the tongue tip touched the LOWER teeth while the
tongue blade -- the part just behind the tongue tip -- touched the
alveolar ridge.  I just put the whole thing down to idiosyncratic
variation.

Years later, I was working with a Russian speaker trying to get a handle
on Russian phonology.  (I had some spare time, and was trying to learn
Russian; she taught it at the community college where I worked.)  She
was surprised at how easily I picked up reasonable pronunciation of
Russian palatalized stops.

I then recalled that "extra" stop that I alternate with t/d in English.
Suddenly, it all made sense: my grandparents all spoke Russian from
childhood.  They learned English as a THIRD language, as adults.  My
parents didn't learn Russian at all.  Still, their English included
Russian phonetic elements, which my brother and I incorporated into our
normal English speech.  (The same elements occur in the speech of
several of my first cousins.)

There's another  notable feature of many Slavic languages whose
influence you can see in native English speakers whose ancestors spoke
Russian or Polish, etc.  Watch (I really did mean "SEE"!) the use of the
lips in bilabials ("M", "B", "P").  The upper lip stays still; it's the
lower lip that moves.  An observant friend (and firstrate descriptive
linguist) was only slightly exaggerating when he said that "In
Pittsburgh, nobody over the age of 45 has a visible upper lip".  That's
exactly what you would expect from the normal Slavic use of the lips in
bilabials.

Habitual use of specific points of articulation on a micro scale can
interfere with learning native pronunciations in a second language.  If
neither the learner nor the teacher has a good grasp of articulatory
phonetics, those slight off-pronunciations are extremely hard to
recognize at all.  Correcting them without a sophisticated knowledge of
phonetics is probably hopeless.

I cite my own speech (and that of my brother and our cousins) to support
the proposition that pronunciation microvariants can carry through a
couple of generations of language separation from the speech community
in which they are normal.

Maybe I don't know what "setting the jaw" might mean in this context,
but setting the points of articulation usually is not a conscious
process . . . and thus is extremely hard to change.

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 21 Mar 1998 07:51:48 EST
From:    CLAndrus <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: The Burial of "ALLELUIA"

smjones probably meant Yom Kippur, not Rosh Shoshanah (sp?).

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 21 Mar 1998 08:25:13 -0600
From:    Samuel Jones <smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Burial of "ALLELUIA"

Re: C.L Andrus comments that I meant Yom Kippur - HE IS CORRECT!

I DID mean Yom Kippur.  Sorry for the dumb error.  I know better!
If I were a Roman child I could say that it was a "lapsus calami" - blaming
the error on my stylus.
But how does one manage to place the blame on a computer keyboard when
working with fat fingers and
bas synapses?

smjones

>smjones probably meant Yom Kippur, not Rosh Shoshanah (sp?).


_______________________________
DR. SAMUEL M. JONES
Professor Emeritus
Music & Latin American Studies
University of Wisconsin-Madison
"Pen-y-Bryn" - 122 Shepard Terrace
Madison, WI  53705-3614  USA
_______________________________
EMAIL: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu
_______________________________
TELEPHONE: 608 + 233-2150
_______________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 21 Mar 1998 11:56:49 +1000
From:    Ross Chambers <maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: TV Dialogue standards

When working as a dialogue editor on a film made in New Zealand, and=20
produced by Universal Studios Los Angeles ("The Frighteners") I was=20
supplied with Universal's "Television and Airline Restrictions" list=20
which describes visual and language items which must be modified to=20
allow sale to these two American markets.

I believe that subscribers may find the "Language Restrictions" of=20
interest--however, by definition, there are a number of profanities=20
included.

So...I'll pause for a couple of days, during which time please advise me=20
if this post would be inappropriate (there's nothing included that you=20
won't hear in theatrical exhibition!)

As well I'll call the post "X-rated" in the subject field, for those who=20
choose not to open it.

Pardon all the drama and titillation, I'm trying to be polite!!

(BTW what is that word "tittitainment" which I heard on the radio in=20
passing, and which seemed to be a solution offered by some LA? SF? think=20
tank to the problem of keeping the 80 percent of the population who may=20
not be working by 2020 occupied and off the streets?)

Kind regards - Ross Chambers   =20
--=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Ross Chambers           Sydney       Australia  maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ozemail.com.au

"L'Australia non =E8 solo agli antipodi, =E8 lontana da tutto, talora anc=
he=20
da sa stessa."

(Australia is not only  at the Antipodes, she is away from everything,=20
sometimes even from herself)

Umberto Eco

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:31:09 EST
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: TV Dialogue standards

I would definitely like to see Ross Chambers' X-Rated list, and it seems to me
that the constraints he has suggested for posting are more than adequate.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 21 Mar 1998 10:42:04 EST
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: standardization of non-standard forms

In a message dated 3/21/98 12:50:19 AM, t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU wrote:

<<Example:  Despite the occurence of lots of items that I once thought of
as "southern", DeKalb joins northern speech in rhyming the  first
syllable of "any", "many", "penny" with "hen" and "men".  Lafayette,
Indiana is south of that dividing line, in dialect, and rhymes those
words with "skinny".  (Their first syllable rhymes with "pin" or
"thin".)>>

It seems to me that the [En]/[In] pronunciation is not so sharply
differentiated geographically--that for many speakers&locations in the Midwest
the rule is VARIABLE. For example, if I were asked to read a list of
individual words from flashcards, I'm sure that I'd pronounce ANY, MANY, &
PENNY with an [E], but in normal speech I sometimes say [I].

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Mar 1998 10:08:08 -0600
From:    Thomas Creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>
Subject: Re: The Burial of "ALLELUIA"

Samuel Jones wrote:

> Re: C.L Andrus comments that I meant Yom Kippur - HE IS CORRECT!
>
> I DID mean Yom Kippur.  Sorry for the dumb error.  I know better!
> If I were a Roman child I could say that it was a "lapsus calami" - blaming
> the error on my stylus.
> But how does one manage to place the blame on a computer keyboard when
> working with fat fingers and
> bas synapses?
>
> smjones
>
> >smjones probably meant Yom Kippur, not Rosh Shoshanah (sp?).
>
> _______________________________
> DR. SAMUEL M. JONES
> Professor Emeritus
> Music & Latin American Studies
> University of Wisconsin-Madison
> "Pen-y-Bryn" - 122 Shepard Terrace
> Madison, WI  53705-3614  USA
> _______________________________
> EMAIL: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu
> _______________________________
> TELEPHONE: 608 + 233-2150
> _______________________________

  How about "lapsus digiti"?  Or, if your guess that is is not a failure at
keyboard operation that is at fault, "lapsus cerebri/memoriae/synapsis" (choose
one).

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Mar 1998 10:28:37 -0600
From:    Thomas Creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>
Subject: Re: TV Dialogue standards

Please do post the "Language Restrictions."  I cannot imagine that the great
majority of ADS-L subscribers would be offended.  If there are one or two who
wish some words would go away, they all have delete buttons on their PC's.

"Tittitainment," is almost certainly a blend or portmanteau word with the
elements "Tit," or perhaps "titty," and "entertainment.  The message is that TV
shows with plenty of cleavage or bared breasts will certainly occupy the
attention of unemployed males.  As a matter of fact, such shows already do
occupy the attention of not only unemployed males, but of many who are
 gainfully
employed.

Ross Chambers wrote:

> When working as a dialogue editor on a film made in New Zealand, and=20
> produced by Universal Studios Los Angeles ("The Frighteners") I was=20
> supplied with Universal's "Television and Airline Restrictions" list=20
> which describes visual and language items which must be modified to=20
> allow sale to these two American markets.
>
> I believe that subscribers may find the "Language Restrictions" of=20
> interest--however, by definition, there are a number of profanities=20
> included.
>
> So...I'll pause for a couple of days, during which time please advise me=20
> if this post would be inappropriate (there's nothing included that you=20
> won't hear in theatrical exhibition!)
>
> As well I'll call the post "X-rated" in the subject field, for those who=20
> choose not to open it.
>
> Pardon all the drama and titillation, I'm trying to be polite!!
>
> (BTW what is that word "tittitainment" which I heard on the radio in=20
> passing, and which seemed to be a solution offered by some LA? SF? think=20
> tank to the problem of keeping the 80 percent of the population who may=20
> not be working by 2020 occupied and off the streets?)
>
> Kind regards - Ross Chambers   =20
> --=20
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
> Ross Chambers           Sydney       Australia  maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ozemail.com.au
>
> "L'Australia non =E8 solo agli antipodi, =E8 lontana da tutto, talora anc=
> he=20
> da sa stessa."
>
> (Australia is not only  at the Antipodes, she is away from everything,=20
> sometimes even from herself)
>
> Umberto Eco
>
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Mar 1998 11:01:30 -0600
From:    Thomas Creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>
Subject: Re: Emma Thompson's jaw

Whether the "jaw set" is the critical element, I do not know. Perhaps that
term is an approximation to describe habitual articulatory practices.

What is generally known is that young children, up to the onset of puberty,
often learn a second, even a third, language without any significant problems
in pronunciation.  Their speech becomes indistinguishable from that of their
peers.The parents of these children, however, rarely learn to speak a second
language without an "accent."

After the onset of puberty, learners of a second language usually have
difficulty in unlearning the "rules" of speech that they have already
internalized.  These "rules" involve both required and forbidden sounds in
speech.  Some individuals, as is the case with most activities, retain greater
linguistic flexibility and hence have greater ability than others to learn to
speak a new language without "accent" which manifests both the required and
forbidden sounds of the base language.Such individuals are linguistically
gifted.  Most people are not so gifted and hence speak late-learned second
languages with an "accent," no matter how long they live.



Linda McMillan wrote:

> This a.m. in an interview, Emma Thompson said that it was difficult
> speaking Amer. English for the movie _Primary Colors_. She claimed that we
> Americans move our mouths and jaws much more than British speakers.  Is
> there any validity to this?
>
> This brings to mind another question: I have a friend who was born in
> Russia and came to the U.S. when she was about 9 or 10, I think.  She
> claims that the reason she has such an evident accent is because her jaw
> was already set by that age for speaking Russian.  Any evidence to support
> her claim?
>
> Linda McMillan  lindi[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netnitco.com

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 21 Mar 1998 17:34:51 +0100
From:    Mike FOX-ecki <mlisecki[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRIKO2.ONET.PL>
Subject: indirect speech acts

Dear linguists,
A friend of mine is about to finish her MA thesis on politeness in Indirect
Speech Acts (ISA). However, she's still having problems with the definition
of ISA that would solve some problematic cases which she encountered in the
course of gathering the language corpus (using a questionnaire):
[said by a boss to a subordinate asking him to leave the office].
a) Would you mind if I got back to XXXX.
b) Right, you can go now, thanks.
c) Thanks for dropping in. Can we talk later?
[you want to ask a few youngsters for permission to open the window on a
train]
a) It wouldn't bother you if I open the window, would it?
b) Excuse me, it's very hot in here. It will be cooler if I open the window.
She is not also sure about the possible indirectness of the following
schematic construction that for sure conveys politeness, but is it really
indirect since it's so often used in its direct sense?
[the situation remains the same as before but we refer to an old lady]
a) Excuse me, would you mind if I opened the window?
[ask a stranger to help you to put a heavy box into the car's trunk]
a) Excuse me, could you give me a hand with this?
Thanks in advance for any comments or remarks. All of them will be very
helpful since we are not native speakers of English.
tafn mike
_______________________________________________________________
Mike FOX-ecki <mlisecki[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]priv2.onet.pl> or <mlisecki[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kki.net.pl>
UIN [4324037]  IRC [lisu]  http://priv2.onet.pl/ka/mlisecki
finger <magura[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cz.top.pl> for my PGP key

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 21 Mar 1998 16:24:56 -0500
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Annoy those Yankees!  (fwd from a student)

One of my 472 (American English Dialects) students just sent the following
to the class. Unfortunately, she can't recall the source. Can someone
supply that? (And has someone written one called "Annoy Those
Southehnehs"?)

I was struck by the accuracy of the list (in its stereotyping of
southern speakers) with respect both to dialect feaures and general
discourse and other cultural patterns.

Thanks,
Bethany

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 21 Mar 1998 16:00:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Annoy those Yankees!

Here are my 25 Favorite Ways To Annoy A Yankee:

1. Take your own sweet time when doing ANYTHING.
2. Pronounce all one-syllable words with two.
3. When giving directions, finish with "and it's right down yonder on the
left." Confuses the hell out of 'em.
4. Talk REAL slow, and ask them to speak more slowly so you can understand
what they're saying.
5. When they talk nostalgically about the North, tell 'em "Delta's ready
when you are!"
6. Talk loudly and often about SEC football or ACC basketball.
7. Refer to every soft drink as a Coke.
8. Always order sweet tea and/or grits. When they don't have it, raise
hell until they agree to fix some.
9. Offer to send 'em a bottle of fresh air.
10. Insist on being addressed by your first AND middle names (e.g. Lisa
Marie -- John Michael -- Jim Bob. . .you get the idea).
11. Frequently bring up "The War of Northern Aggression" in conversation.
If anyone ever says the words "Civil War", always interject that "there
was nothing civil about
======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/21/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 19 Mar 1998 to 20 Mar 1998             98-03-21 00:01:21
This message contains more text than QuickMail can display. The entire message
 has been enclosed as a file.

There are 27 messages totalling 815 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. seeking textbook advice (5)
  2. Inauguration in S. Mississippi April 16
  3. "bored of" (2)
  4. GLOBAL CHANGES in English
  5. standardization of non-standard forms (6)
  6. Last call for classvideo input (2)
  7. "Like" is buried (2)
  8. chaise
  9. Emma Thompson's jaw
 10. Chaise longue
 11. ADS at SAMLA Call for Papers (2)
 12. buried words
 13. The Burial of "ALLELUIA" (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:43:41 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: Re: seeking textbook advice

Thanks to all who have offered help with this, whether via the list or in
personal email. I have forwarded all suggestions to the requestor... and I
think I will assemble them into a single file to keep on hand!

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Mar 1998 09:48:09 EST
From:    AAllan <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Inauguration in S. Mississippi April 16

Is there a member of the American Dialect Society who would like to represent
us at the inauguration of Horace Weldon Fleming, Jr., as president of the U of
Southern Mississippi in Hattiesburg on Thursday, April 16?

 ADS couldn't pay your expenses, but it would be an opportunity to enjoy the
collegiality and festivity.

  There are many ancillary events, including receptions and a concert by the
Paris-Sorbonne Symphony Orchestra, to which you'd also be invited. And you'd
be welcome to bring a guest.

  They need to know soon, so if you're interested, please let me know right
away.

  By the way, so far I've had no volunteers for the position of "Chief of
Protocol" who would arrange for an ADS representative in cases like this.
Anyone interested? You'd help us lend our support to the ceremonial
recognition of the wider community of scholars.

- Allan Metcalf
Executive Secretary
American Dialect Society

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Mar 1998 10:26:00 -0500
From:    Caren Gibbens <gibbenc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NYTIMES.COM>
Subject: Re: seeking textbook advice

PLEASE!  I don't know how I got on this "list" but I am receiving a huge
amount of e-mail.  If you have any power to get me off this list, please do.
Thanks.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:47:31 -0400
From:    JANE M SPALDING-JAMIESON <JSPALDINGJAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA>
Subject: Re: "bored of"

I am 29 years old, grew up in Edmonton, Alberta (now studying
linguistics), and grew up using this phrase, "bored of". I had no
idea it was considered incorrect usage by some, and have never heard
it questioned, even when I trained and worked as a textbook editor in
the West. (it never came up in any books we worked on, though!)

What is the phrase considered to be correct? Is it "bored with"?
(I have also heard this possibility, but it always sounded snobby to
me. Perception is a fickle thing. I have never had occasion to look it
up, although now I will.)

- jane spalding- jamieson
student, University of Prince Edward Island, Canada

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:10:54 -0500
From:    "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: "bored of"

Perception may be fickle, but, unless you are a ding-an-sicher (and have
uncanny access to those dingen), it's all we've got.

dInIs

>I am 29 years old, grew up in Edmonton, Alberta (now studying
>linguistics), and grew up using this phrase, "bored of". I had no
>idea it was considered incorrect usage by some, and have never heard
>it questioned, even when I trained and worked as a textbook editor in
>the West. (it never came up in any books we worked on, though!)
>
>What is the phrase considered to be correct? Is it "bored with"?
>(I have also heard this possibility, but it always sounded snobby to
>me. Perception is a fickle thing. I have never had occasion to look it
>up, although now I will.)
>
>- jane spalding- jamieson
>student, University of Prince Edward Island, Canada

Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:07:53 -0400
From:    JANE M SPALDING-JAMIESON <JSPALDINGJAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA>
Subject: GLOBAL CHANGES in English

As English becomes more and more an international language through
mass media and its present convenience as a second language in
business, travel, etc., I predict we will see vast changes like the
recently discussed functional shift and catch-all preposition
(perhaps normalizing generalizations and exceptions right out of the
language). And why not?

- jane spalding-jamieson
ex-ESL teacher in Europe
linguistics student at University of Prince Edward Island, Canada

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:37:40 -0500
From:    Robert Ness <ness[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU>
Subject: Re: seeking textbook advice

I just received Anita K. Barry's English Grammar: Language as Human
Behavior (Prentice hall, 1998) and it looks like it might fit the bill.
Its chapters read "What are Nouns," What are prepositions," etc., and
each chapter contains practice exercises. On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Bethany K.
Dumas wrote:

> Mark, the very best thing I know is the little Strunk and White _Elements
> of Style_, now in its 15th+ edition -- 16th, maybe. It is invaluable in
> situations like your correspondent described. It's short, simple, easy to
> use, not fussy. No theory, just practical advice.
>
> Second best: The _Texas Style Manual_ (approximate title), a tiny book,
> used often by law reviews. Similar to above, a little fussier.
>
> If others know of other resources, I would like to know about them.
>
> Bethany
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:18:17 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: seeking textbook advice

I too received a copy of the Barry book, and it looks very good as a
textbook (suggested for a one-semester class in brush-up grammar).  It
incorporates concepts of constituent categories and hierarchical structure
(helpful for consciousness-raising, for ESL learners too), but it also
acknowledges variation: on reflexives, for ex., 'hisself' and 'theirselves'
"are stigmatized forms, but you certainly can't fault their logic!" (p.
87).  However, I'd guess the original correspondent wants his son to learn
standard (written) _usage_, not grammar per se; and in that case, Strunk
and White is concise and direct.  I doubt that the son would wade through
Barry, or the various and wonderful books by Greenbaum et al.--unfortunately!


At 11:37 AM 3/20/98 -0500, you wrote:
>I just received Anita K. Barry's English Grammar: Language as Human
>Behavior (Prentice hall, 1998) and it looks like it might fit the bill.
>Its chapters read "What are Nouns," What are prepositions," etc., and
>each chapter contains practice exercises. On Thu, 19 Mar 1998, Bethany K.
>Dumas wrote:
>
>> Mark, the very best thing I know is the little Strunk and White _Elements
>> of Style_, now in its 15th+ edition -- 16th, maybe. It is invaluable in
>> situations like your correspondent described. It's short, simple, easy to
>> use, not fussy. No theory, just practical advice.
>>
>> Second best: The _Texas Style Manual_ (approximate title), a tiny book,
>> used often by law reviews. Similar to above, a little fussier.
>>
>> If others know of other resources, I would like to know about them.
>>
>> Bethany
>>
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:04:35 EST
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: standardization of non-standard forms

In a message dated 3/11/98 9:27:38 AM, laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU wrote:

<<I was just reminded of another expression that has now shifted
along the lines of the (non-malapropism?) examples I was citing yesterday
(proof in the pudding, wherefore art thou): the reanalysis of "beg the
question".  ESPN's baseball analyst Peter Gammons last night was discussing
the Toronto Blue Jays' prospects for this year, with strong pitching and
uncertain hitting, and said that this "begs the question of which is more
important, pitching or hitting"--i.e., it RAISES that question.  OK, not a
malapropism, but this clearly represents a standardization of a form not
standardly used with this meaning.>>

BEGS THE QUESTION in this sense has taken on a real vogue usage, I think, but
as has been pointed out here (?) before, it is not new. At least my memory is
that I was surprised to learn that dictionaries have been listing this "new"
usage for years (I just checked my AMERICAN HBERITAGE, though, and don't find
it).

Larry lists "duck tape", "chaise lounge", perhaps "tenure tract" or "no holes
barred". And how about  "bedroom suit"?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Mar 1998 12:11:13 -0700
From:    Alan Manning <alan_manning[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BYU.EDU>
Subject: Last call for classvideo input

This Monday I need to get to work on writing up my findings but I'd like to
request once more the assistance of all of you on ADS-L (or as many of you
as have time to help) with the next issue of the ADS Teaching Newsletter
(an insert in the NADS, appearing once or twice a year).  Thanks to all of
you who have responded so far.   I'd still like to know from as many more
of you as possible what VIDEOS you've actually been using in your
language-related classes.

If you are pressed for time, you can just fill in the following template:

TITLE OF YOUR COURSE:

STUDENT LEVEL:  (high school, college freshman, sophomore-junior, senior,
graduate)

***and for EACH video you use:
TITLE:
PUBLISHER: (the production company, if you know it)
ORDERING INFO: (where the video is ordered from, and the price if you know
it)
SUBJECT MATTER: (in a couple of sentences, what's on the tape).

IF YOU HAVE A LITTLE MORE TIME, I'd appreciate hearing from you, in a
paragraph or three, what scenes you particularly call your students'
attention to, and why those scenes are important to your teaching goals in
the course.

I'll be compiling your responses until March 23 (at which point I have to
write them up and send them on to NADS).    I hope you can find a little
time between now and then to respond.

 I particularly like to thank Bethany Dumas for giving me the inspiration
for this topic with her recent post about "Yeah you rite!"

Keep in in mind too, that you and any of your colleagues are invited to
submit items to the _Teaching Newsletter_ any time.   In the past we've
published reviews of textbooks and other classroom supplements, as well as
short articles (1500 words or so) on teaching methods, course design, and
other language-teaching-related topics.

Thanks for your help.

Alan Manning

alan_manning[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]byu.edu
Linguistics Department
BYU, Provo, UT  84602

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Mar 1998 11:54:23 +0000
From:    Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: standardization of non-standard forms

On Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:04:35 EST RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM> wrote:

>
> Larry lists "duck tape", "chaise lounge", perhaps "tenure tract" or "no
> holes barred". And how about  "bedroom suit"?

In my experience, "bedroom suit" is regional.  I encountered it only
when I lived in the South, or from people who were from the South.
Just now I did an impromptu survey in my office and no one had ever
heard "suit" in this meaning.  A colleague who was born in New Jersey
said, "Well, the old-fashioned term would be 'suite'," but she didn't
know any other, explaining, "I AM old-fashioned!"  Another person said
it would be a dining room "set" but a bedroom "suite."

And I wanted to clarify one of the other items before but got
distracted: To those who have heard "chaise lounge," do you really mean
"chaise" (shez)?  I've always understood it was either kept as in
French (more or less) or completely Anglicized to "chase lounge"--but
it's been a long time since I've heard the term used at all, so I
wouldn't swear to this.

Peter
----------------------
Peter A. McGraw
Linfield College
McMinnville, Oregon
pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linfield.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:43:44 -0500
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: standardization of non-standard forms

At 02:04 PM 3/20/98 EST, RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM> wrote:
>BEGS THE QUESTION in this sense has taken on a real vogue usage, I think, but
>as has been pointed out here (?) before, it is not new. At least my memory is
>that I was surprised to learn that dictionaries have been listing this "new"
>usage for years (I just checked my AMERICAN HBERITAGE, though, and don't find
>it).
>

On "beg the question," see OED2 beg v., meaning 6, first citation 1581.

See also OED2 beggar n., meaning 4, first citation 1579.

It seems to be especially favored in philosophical or classical-logic contexts.

I happen to first recall it from undergrad philosophy courses at the end of
the 1970s.

{I've been away for a week; there may be things in old messages for me to
respond to, when I find time this weekend.}

Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Mar 1998 14:57:45 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: standardization of non-standard forms

At 11:54 AM +0000 3/20/98, Peter McGraw wrote:
...
>And I wanted to clarify one of the other items before but got
>distracted: To those who have heard "chaise lounge," do you really mean
>"chaise" (shez)?  I've always understood it was either kept as in
>French (more or less) or completely Anglicized to "chase lounge"--but
>it's been a long time since I've heard the term used at all, so I
>wouldn't swear to this.
>
>Peter

What I've usually heard is something in between the two, pronounced
basically as Shay's (as in the rebellion); not completely Anglicized to
"chase", but not French-style to rhyme with 'says' either.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Mar 1998 15:10:18 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: standardization of non-standard forms

At 2:43 PM -0500 3/20/98, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote:
>At 02:04 PM 3/20/98 EST, RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM> wrote:
>>BEGS THE QUESTION in this sense has taken on a real vogue usage, I think, but
>>as has been pointed out here (?) before, it is not new. At least my memory is
>>that I was surprised to learn that dictionaries have been listing this "new"
>>usage for years (I just checked my AMERICAN HBERITAGE, though, and don't find
>>it).
>>
>
>On "beg the question," see OED2 beg v., meaning 6, first citation 1581.
>
>See also OED2 beggar n., meaning 4, first citation 1579.
>
>It seems to be especially favored in philosophical or classical-logic
>contexts.
>
>I happen to first recall it from undergrad philosophy courses at the end of
>the 1970s.
>
>{I've been away for a week; there may be things in old messages for me to
>respond to, when I find time this weekend.}
>
>Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

I'm sorry; there must be some confusion here.  The sense Greg refers to,
with citations back to 1581, is the STANDARD one for 'beg the question',
i.e. (as the OED puts it) 'to take for granted the matter in dispute', 'to
assume without proof', going back to the classical fallacy, defined by
Aristotle et al., of petitio principii.  The meaning I brought up as an
instance of standardization-of-nonstandard-forms, and I assume the meaning
Ron alludes to as  a vogue usage as well, is the very different sense 'to
raise/bring up the question'.  I assume philosophers would never be caught
dead using the expression in this sense, but mere mortals evidently don't
mind.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Mar 1998 15:53:50 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Last call for classvideo input

At 12:11 PM 3/20/98 -0700, you wrote:
>This Monday I need to get to work on writing up my findings but I'd like to
>request once more the assistance of all of you on ADS-L (or as many of you
>as have time to help) with the next issue of the ADS Teaching Newsletter
>(an insert in the NADS, appearing once or twice a year).  Thanks to all of
>you who have responded so far.   I'd still like to know from as many more
>of you as possible what VIDEOS you've actually been using in your
>language-related classes.
>
>If you are pressed for time, you can just fill in the following template:
>
>TITLEs OF YOUR COURSEs:  Intro. to the Study of Language, Language in
America, Language and Culture, Language of Women and Men, Sociolinguistics,
Language Acquisition (six taught most often by me!).
>
>STUDENT LEVEL:  (high school, college freshman, sophomore-junior, senior,
>graduate)  First four are undergraduate, last two are graduate-level.
>
>***and for EACH video you use:

We use so many videos I won't be able to recall them all.  Below are a few;
if I have time later, I'll fill in publ. data, but for now I'll just list
them.

>TITLEs:  "American Tongues," "Baby Talk," "Language," "Genie," "Can Chimps
Talk?," "In Search of the First Language," "The Human Language" (3 parts,
use excerpts), and "The Brain"--all used in part or whole for undergraduate
Intro. to Study of Language course.
        Several parts of "The Story of English" (Black English and Pidgins and
Creoles esp.); video copies of a Dick Cavett series on Black English,
Standard AmEng, and political jargon--all used in Language in America course.
        Videos on Franz Boas and a series on "Going International," plus
student-made videos on gesture and body language--for Lang. and Culture.
        Several of the above and Chomsky giving a lecture at MIT on language
acquisition--for Lang. Acquisition course.
        "American Tongues," "Black English" and P&C videos from "Story of
 English"
series, Labov giving a LAVIS II lecture on divergence in Southern AmEng
phonology, and a BBC/Gumperz video on "Cross Talk"--for Sociolinguistics.
        "Men, Women, and Language" (a Penn State video), "He Said/She Said" (D.
Tannen in PBS interview), and a short video on "Language in the Workplace"
(D. Tannen in 20/20 interview)--all for Lang. of Women and Men course.

        (Obviously many of these are from the PBS "Nova" series; others have
 been
taped off the home screen or purchased from catalogs.  Ironically, I
haven't seen "Yeah, You Rite" yet!  Nor am I including the many video
series we use in our TEFL methodology courses.)

>PUBLISHER: (the production company, if you know it)
>ORDERING INFO: (where the video is ordered from, and the price if you know
>it)
>SUBJECT MATTER: (in a couple of sentences, what's on the tape).--Most of
these are familiar to our readers, I suspect.
>
>IF YOU HAVE A LITTLE MORE TIME, I'd appreciate hearing from you, in a
>paragraph or three, what scenes you particularly call your students'
>attention to, and why those scenes are important to your teaching goals in
>the course.
>
>I'll be compiling your responses until March 23 (at which point I have to
>write them up and send them on to NADS).    I hope you can find a little
>time between now and then to respond.
>
> I particularly like to thank Bethany Dumas for giving me the inspiration
>for this topic with her recent post about "Yeah you rite!"
>
>Keep in in mind too, that you and any of your colleagues are invited to
>submit items to the _Teaching Newsletter_ any time.   In the past we've
>published reviews of textbooks and other classroom supplements, as well as
>short 
======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/20/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 18 Mar 1998 to 19 Mar 1998             98-03-20 00:00:10
There are 15 messages totalling 462 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. "bored of" (4)
  2. herfers, herfs, and crawls
  3. arbitrariness of derivational morphology (2)
  4. seeking textbook advice (4)
  5. ADS at SAMLA Call for Papers
  6. FBI, voice identifcaiton, and dialect
  7. OF, the universal preposition
  8. Help - I'm drowning

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:33:12 -0800
From:    Devon Coles <dcoles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HORIZON.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: "bored of"

Lately on campus I've heard a number of young students use the phrase "bored
of" as in "I'm bored of this course." It's really been driving me up the
wall. But even worse, today I overhead someone say, "I'm sorry. Are you
embarrassed of my question?"
Is this just a local thing (British Columbia), or has anyone else noticed
this odd use of "of"?
Cheers,
Devon Coles
dcoles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]horizon.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Mar 1998 23:41:54 -0600
From:    Dan Goodman <dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM>
Subject: herfers, herfs, and crawls

Subject: Re: PROPOSAL: alt.smokers.herfers
Newsgroups: alt.config

>In article <slrn6h16a8.q37.grobe+news[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]worf.netins.net>,
>grobe+news[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netins.net says...
>> In article <890254796[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]jrs.hiwaay.net>, J.R. Steele wrote:
>> >Posting of non-commercial discussion related to the enjoyment of
>> >cigars in the company of fellow smokers.
>> >This is to be an unmoderated newsgroup, however, unrelated
>> >postings and advertising will be discouraged.
>>
>> alt.smokers.cigars already existsx
>>
>Yes, but the main purpose for this group is for the discussion
>related to Herfs (gatherings in clubs, bars and homes on a local
>or national level for cigar smoking). This will reduce the
>traffic on ASC. Out of 1850 posts to ASC in the past 6 days,
>approximately 140 posts have related to Herfs or Crawls
>(gatherings for cigar smoking/discussion where attendees make the
>rounds of the local bars, clubs, restaurants, cigar retailers and
>cigar factories).
>--
>J.R. Steele
>"Oops....gotta go, the UPSidor is here!"

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Mar 1998 08:57:51 -0500
From:    Laurence Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: arbitrariness of derivational morphology

At 5:17 PM -0500 3/18/98, RonButters wrote:
>"Why can't CONTEMPT be made into a verb in English?" asked my Turkish student.
>"And why can't DESPISE be made into a noun?" English is so very flexible when
>it comes to interchanging categories--with and without derivational
>morphology--one wonders why we can't say, "*David feels the sailor's
>despise/despisation for him" or "*Giovanni contempts/contemptates Jacques."
>
>Any answers--other than the usual language-is-arbitrary response?

I see others have made the point I was going to:  the historical answer is
the verb "contemn" (attested from the 15th century, not that much after
"contempt" occurs, the latter actually defined in the OED as 'the action of
contemning or despising'), while "despisal" at least occasionally occurs.
I wonder if the demise of "contemn" was partly sparked by the near-homonymy
with "condemn", whose meaning is just close enough to cause problems.  In
any case, this doesn't really answer Ron's question, since contemporary
speakers don't HAVE the verb "contemn" or the noun "despisal" in their
lexicons to block the zero-derivations.  We DO have "despite", which was
the traditional nominal partner of the verb "despise", but again the
relevant meaning no longer occurs.  In fact all we really have now for
"despite" is the much more recent preposition; the older forms, both noun
and verb (= 'despise'), despite their rich legacies, have vanished.  Maybe
the noun "contempt" and the verb "despise", mismatched couple that they
appear to be, are all the lexicon needs.

L

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:16:51 -0500
From:    Laurence Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: "bored of"

At 9:33 PM -0800 3/18/98, Devon Coles wrote:
>Lately on campus I've heard a number of young students use the phrase "bored
>of" as in "I'm bored of this course." It's really been driving me up the
>wall. But even worse, today I overhead someone say, "I'm sorry. Are you
>embarrassed of my question?"
>Is this just a local thing (British Columbia), or has anyone else noticed
>this odd use of "of"?

Might be generational.  My kids (at least one of them) often complain about
being "bored of" something, and they're in Connecticut (a ways from BC).
Impressionistically, there may be an influence from "tired of" here.  (I
suppose some would see a blend or 'contamination' if this is right.)

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:31:25 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: seeking textbook advice

I've gotten a request for help with textbooks, but I don't know anything to tell
 this person. Can any reader help?

   ===

Can you recommend a good, basic grammar book?  I want it primarily for my son.
He's a sophomore in high school & going into AP English next year, but the
 grammar school district hasn't taught them
grammar and his usage is terrible. Last week I read one of his essays.  Not only
 did he end the first sentence in a
preposition, he didn't even know that the word 'from' was a preposition.  He
 thought they only related to location.
     I need a brush up course also.  I work for a man whose first language is
Turkish and whose sentence structure resembles Faulkner's.  After translating
 his letters into business language for 10
years I find myself questioning things like basic comma rules.
     If you know of a good book that would be available in commercial book
 stores, please let me know.

   ===

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:59:44 -0500
From:    Enid Pearsons <epearsons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RANDOMHOUSE.COM>
Subject: Re: "bored of"

"Bored of" appears to be a generational thing (30 and under) in New York
City.  I, who try to be objective about these things, am driven up the same
wall.  It may be yet another losing battle.

))))))))) Previous Notes Mail
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
To:     ADS-L [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
cc:     (bcc: Enid Pearsons/Trade/RandomHouse)
From:  Devon Coles <dcoles [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] HORIZON.BC.CA>
Date:  03/19/98 12:33 AM
Subject:  Re: "bored of"




Lately on campus I've heard a number of young students use the phrase
"bored
of" as in "I'm bored of this course." It's really been driving me up the
wall. But even worse, today I overhead someone say, "I'm sorry. Are you
embarrassed of my question?"
Is this just a local thing (British Columbia), or has anyone else noticed
this odd use of "of"?
Cheers,
Devon Coles
dcoles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]horizon.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:51:49 -0500
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Re: seeking textbook advice

Mark, the very best thing I know is the little Strunk and White _Elements
of Style_, now in its 15th+ edition -- 16th, maybe. It is invaluable in
situations like your correspondent described. It's short, simple, easy to
use, not fussy. No theory, just practical advice.

Second best: The _Texas Style Manual_ (approximate title), a tiny book,
used often by law reviews. Similar to above, a little fussier.

If others know of other resources, I would like to know about them.

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:00:59 -0500
From:    Mary Brown Zeigler <engmez[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANTHER.GSU.EDU>
Subject: ADS at SAMLA Call for Papers

Call for Papers
South Atlantic Section, American Dialect Society (SA-ADS)
meeting with SAMLA, Atlanta, Hyatt-Regency, November 5 - 7, 1998
20-minute papers
      TOPIC:
"What's Hot, What's Not, and What Oughta Be in American Dialect Studies"
(Basically an open topic)
Send Abstracts (one-page maximum) by April 30, 1998
Send to Mary Zeigler, English Department, Georgia State University



Mary B. Zeigler
Georgia State University
Department of English
Atlanta, GA 30303
mzeigler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gsu.edu
Voice (404) 651-2900
Fax (404) 651-1710

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:34:16 EST
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: FBI, voice identifcaiton, and dialect

In a message dated 3/11/98 9:09:56 AM, abatef[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM wrote:

<<I'd be interested to know if the FBI (if it was them) still uses dailec=
t
geography as evidence, and whether this stemmed from Labov's work.

Anyone know?  Is there a list of "shibboleth" words that still works in
determining place of origin?>>

In addition to Labov's 1988 article, I recommend the following: (1). Sher=
ry=0AAsh's 1988 article, "Speaker Identification in Sociolinguistics and =
Criminal=0ALaw" (NWAV-16 Proceedings), (2). Bethany Dumas's article in th=
e Winter 1990=0AAMERICAN SPEECH ("Voice Identification in a Criminal Law =
Context"), and (3).=0A"Linguistics in the Courtroom," by Penelope O. Pick=
ett, M. F. S. (_FBI Law=0AEnforcement Bulletin_ (October 1993, pp. 6=969)=
; quote:
"_Author/Speaker Assessment_
     "In analyzing communications to determine demographic and psychologi=
cal=0Acharacteristics of the author/speaker, the linguistic examiner look=
s at the=0Asame features as in the comparison examination, e.g., vocabula=
ry selection,=0Asyntax, phraseology, etc. The examiner basically does the=
 same type of=0Acomparison examination, but in author/speaker assessments=
, uses population=0Astandards as the comparative material.
     "Unfortunately, a comprehensive, centralized set of population stand=
ards=0Adoes not exist, even though linguists, sociologists, psychologists=
, and others=0Ahave conducted various studies on the various factors. [No=
te 3: Studies have=0Abeen conducted on such factors as word frequency cou=
nts, dialects, accents,=0Aregional expressions, social setting influence =
on language, sex, and age=0Adifferences in language usage, occupational j=
argon, word associations,=0Apsychological influences on language, and ide=
ational disturbance.]"=0A

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Mar 1998 11:24:41 +0000
From:    Lynne Murphy <M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU>
Subject: Re: "bored of"

Devon Coles wrote:
>
> Lately on campus I've heard a number of young students use the phrase "bored
> of" as in "I'm bored of this course." It's really been driving me up the
> wall. But even worse, today I overhead someone say, "I'm sorry. Are you
> embarrassed of my question?"


my texan students will use 'of' for absolutely anything, it seems (or at
least using the proper preposition is always a problem in their
essays--i get things like 'similar with' and "thomas establishes these
truths to sexual identity" (this morning's gem).  but i must admit, i
say 'bored of' (i'm a little beyond 30). the toronto-based band, the
pursuit of happiness, has a lovely little ditty called "bored of you"--i
think it's on their album _love junk_.

lynne

--

M. Lynne Murphy
Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English
Baylor University
PO Box 97404
Waco, TX 76798

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Mar 1998 13:07:15 EST
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: OF, the universal preposition

In a message dated 3/19/98 9:29:33 AM, you wrote:

<<At 9:33 PM -0800 3/18/98, Devon Coles wrote:
>Lately on campus I've heard a number of young students use the phrase "bored
>of" as in "I'm bored of this course." It's really been driving me up the
>wall. But even worse, today I overhead someone say, "I'm sorry. Are you
>embarrassed of my question?"
>Is this just a local thing (British Columbia), or has anyone else noticed
>this odd use of "of"?

Might be generational.  My kids (at least one of them) often complain about
being "bored of" something, and they're in Connecticut (a ways from BC).
Impressionistically, there may be an influence from "tired of" here.  (I
suppose some would see a blend or 'contamination' if this is right.)

Larry>>

Perhaps OF is replacing all other prepositions in all such contexts. Here are
two quotes from (or should I say "of"?) a student paper that I happen to be
reading right now:

1. "David's own disgust of [SIC--not "for" or "with"] Jacques and Guillaume is
seen clearly in the following passage . . ."

2. "The reason why David is so fiercely hateful of [SIC--not "toward"] Jacques
and Guillaume is probably because he feels that they represent his future."

The author is a very bright 18-year-old male from  (or should I say "of"?)
Cleveland, Ohio.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Mar 1998 14:09:23 -0500
From:    BETSY A RYAN <ZFFV06A[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PRODIGY.COM>
Subject: seeking textbook advice

-- [ From: Nick Mankovich * EMC.Ver #2.5.3 ] --

Mark:  To complement the basic grammar handbook by Strunk & White
suggested by Bethany, try two other short and very entertaining books on
common grammatical problems, "Woe is I: The Grammarphobe's Guide to
Better English in Plain English," by Patricia T. O'Conner (Putnam's,
1996) and "The Transitive Vampire: A Handbook of Grammar for the
Innocent, the Eager, and the Doomed," by Karen Elizabeth Gordon (Random
House, 1984).

-Betsy Ryan

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Mar 1998 09:52:17 -1000
From:    Norman Roberts <nroberts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: seeking textbook advice

>Mark, the very best thing I know is the little Strunk and White _Elements
>of Style_, now in its 15th+ edition -- 16th, maybe. It is invaluable in
>situations like your correspondent described. It's short, simple, easy to
>use, not fussy. No theory, just practical advice.
>
>Second best: The _Texas Style Manual_ (approximate title), a tiny book,
>used often by law reviews. Similar to above, a little fussier.
>
>If others know of other resources, I would like to know about them.
>
>Bethany

For many years I used Joseph C. Blumenthal.  English 3200: A Programmed
Course in Grammar and Usage.  New York:  Harcourt Brace, 1994.  It's
essentially "school" grammar, and some of my students did not like
programmed instruction, but anybody who ever worked through the program
could not help but learn grammar and usage.  This book was pioneered in the
early sixties, was "desexed" in the eighties, and given "writing
applications" in the fourth edition (1994).  The grammar and usage which
the program teaches is mostly the stuff that those of us who are legally
old learned in elementary school but which today is only to be found in
graduate linguistics courses for the gifted and talented. It's ideal for
self-study and much, much cheaper than the computerized "programs" that
teach English fundamentals.

There are smaller versions entitled English 2400 and English 2600, but the
program is essentially the same.  The numbers refer to the number of frames
[Bit of instruction] in the books.  The same books come in both "school"
and "college" editions, but the program is identical in each.

Many of my colleagues didn't like English 3200 because it didn't leave them
anything to do.  However I found that it freed me to teach writing.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Mar 1998 15:09:06 +0000
From:    Victoria Neufeldt <vneufeldt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: Re: arbitrariness of derivational morphology

On Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:17:26 EST Ron Butters wrote:

> "Why can't CONTEMPT be made into a verb in English?" asked my Turkish
 student.
> "And why can't DESPISE be made into a noun?" English is so very flexible when
> it comes to interchanging categories--with and without derivational
> morphology--one wonders why we can't say, "*David feels the sailor's
> despise/despisation for him" or "*Giovanni contempts/contemptates Jacques."
>
> Any answers--other than the usual language-is-arbitrary response?
>

As far as "contempt" is concerned, it is surely just accidental that
it has not yet become "verbed."  There seems to be nothing about this
particular word that would impede a functional shift, and perhaps a
shift has already taken place somewhere, sometime, as "spontaneous
generation" that has simply not been recorded.  But I would be very
surprised to hear of "despise" being used as a noun, even in rapid,
unthinking speech. The second syllable of this word looks and sounds
like an "-ise" suffix, and because the "-ize/-ise" suffix is so
productive and so strongly verbal, the native speaker looking for a
noun would automatically add some kind of suffix, if only an "-ing"
ending.  (I wonder if there are any nouns ending in the suffix
"-ize"; i.e. the suffix, as distinct from the simple spelling, as in
"prize".)

So I'd say there are no constraints against "contempt" becoming a
verb, but there is one against "despise" becoming a noun.

That "to contempt" does not yet exist, in spite of lack of
grammatical constraints may just be because of the existence of a
very common verb that fills the bill, namely, "despise." We are all
rather linguistically lazy, aren't we? (aside from any feelings for
or against a particular usage) and will normally go with the flow unless
we are spurred on to do something new.

Victoria Neufeldt

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Mar 1998 23:01:38 -0000
From:    Sprague <longacresprague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EMAIL.MSN.COM>
Subject: Re: Help - I'm drowning

Hello,

I have greatly enjoyed the discussions over the past months, but regret
that the volume of correspondence from you all has now reached unmanageable
proportions.

However, due to a disk failure some weeks ago I have lost the 'unsubscribe'
 instructions to ADL.

Any help from anybody would be appreciated.

Many thanks,

Shaun Sprague Windsor UK.

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Mar 1998 to 19 Mar 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/19/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 17 Mar 1998 to 18 Mar 1998             98-03-19 00:01:38
There are 12 messages totalling 400 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. They didn't think?
  2. Fargo (5)
  3. arbitrariness of derivational morphology (3)
  4. Fwd:  dialect
  5. Sources for audio tapes of American regional dialects (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:59:04 +1000
From:    Ross Chambers <maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: They didn't think?

I did say that I would refrain from posting unAmerican information,=20
however the following was too hard to resist--Sorry!

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D

>From the Letters to the Editor "The Australian" March 17, 1998:

STREET PUZZLE
Ignorance is bliss. I note with amusement that the good citizens of=20
Pansy Street in Cairns (Queensland, Australia rc) have had their street=20
nmae changed because of its prissy overtones. The street is now called=20
Hyacinth.

Hyacinthus was a pre-Hellenic god worshipped at Amyclae. His cult was=20
subordinate to that of Apollo, and he was known to be beautiful boy with=20
whom Apollo was in love.

Hyacinthus was killed accidently when struck on the head by a discus. A=20
grief-stricken Apollo subsequently mourned for him, in token of which=20
the flower of the same name was created.

How ironic that people lobbied to change the name of their street=20
because of its perceived homosexual overtones, only to adopt one that=20
has a specific homosexual reference!.

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

Regards - Ross Chambers
--=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Ross Chambers           Sydney       Australia  maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ozemail.com.au

"L'Australia non =E8 solo agli antipodi, =E8 lontana da tutto, talora anc=
he=20
da sa stessa."

(Australia is not only  at the Antipodes, she is away from everything,=20
sometimes even from herself)

Umberto Eco

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Mar 1998 10:50:19 -0600
From:    Linda McMillan <lindi[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETNITCO.NET>
Subject: Fargo

Hello everyone--I have recently subscribed to this list for the purpose of
obtaining some help writing a paper, but I have been enjoying reading the
messages immensely.  Here is my dilemma: I am taking an intro. Linguistics
class (grad. level but my first exposure), and I would like to write a
paper about the north central  (or upper midwest?) dialect, particularly as
it is portrayed, etc. in the movie Fargo.  I chose this topic since most of
my family came from northern Wisc. and I have been surrounded by this
speech (in a much less exaggerated form of course) all my life.  So far I
am having little luck finding any scholarly sources--I may be looking in
the wrong indices since I am a lit. major.  Can anyone help me--or at least
steer me in the right direction?

Linda McMillan
lindi[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netnitco. com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:58:57 EST
From:    AAllan <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Fargo

An excellent resource is Jim "the Mad Monk" Crotty's _How to Talk American_
(Mariner Books, 1997). You can get it for a mere $12. See its sections on the
Midwest and Minnesota.

Warning: This is not a scholarly book. It's categorized on its own back cover
as "Humor and Trivia, Writing and Words." It has no documented citations, and
not even an index. Nor is it 100% accurate. But it will tell you what to
listen and look for. It has copious examples of vocabulary and pronunciation
of many regions and lifestyles in the whole country, with generous
explanations. A fine starting point.

(By the way, the author is on our ADS-L.)

- Allan Metcalf

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 19 Mar 1997 12:06:07 -0600
From:    Thomas Creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>
Subject: Re: Fargo

Linda,

You couldn't live in a better area to get the help you are seeking.  I
gather from your Netnitco address that you live in Northwest Indiana. I
live in Chesterton.  The help you need is to be found from Virginia
McDavid, who lives in Ogden Dunes.  Unfortunately, she is leaving
tomorrow morning for a trip, but will be back on the 29th oif March.  I
am sure that she will be happy to help you.

Virginia did fieldwork for the Linguistic Atlas of the Upper Midwest and
has the published volumes of that work on her bookshelves.  In addition,
she is  personally knowledgeable  about the upper midwest dialect.

You can reach her at mcdavid[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]crown.net.  Her telephone number is 219/762
9715.
If you can wait until after the 29th, I am sure that she will be happy
to give you any help you need.

Tom Creswell

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:35:28 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fargo

I'm not sure this went through; will try again.

>Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 13:27:59 -0500
>To: lindi[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETNITCO.NET
>From: Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu>
>Subject: Re: Fargo
>
>Linda, as a native Minnesotan, I have to disagree with others on the value
of Jim Crotty's book.  If you were an undergraduate in my "Language in
America" course, _perhaps_ I'd allow you to use his book as a starting
point, but I'd also expect much more research (and my undergrads, most
non-majors in Linguistics, do pretty sophisticated research, analyzing
vowels in particular, as well as peculiar syntactic structures).  But since
you're a graduate student, you should most certainly go deeper than either
the book or the movie--my lit majors aren't excused either!  Check out
Harold Allen's _Linguistic Atlas of the Upper Midwest_ first (as Tom
Creswell suggested), and then do a CD-Rom (or print bibliography) search
under such topics as Northern dialects of AmEng, vowel raising (esp. the
schwa in diphthongs--also called "Canadian Raising" but common throughout
our region), syntactic features such as verb + particle (as in "come
with"), etc.  Be aware too (as I'm sure you are, as a Wisconsinite) that
"Fargo" exaggerates the regional features, even though it's fairly
representative.  And Crotty's work focuses on idiomatic expressions (like
"you betcha"), not grammar and pronunciation.
>
>
>At 10:50 AM 3/18/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>Hello everyone--I have recently subscribed to this list for the purpose of
>>obtaining some help writing a paper, but I have been enjoying reading the
>>messages immensely.  Here is my dilemma: I am taking an intro. Linguistics
>>class (grad. level but my first exposure), and I would like to write a
>>paper about the north central  (or upper midwest?) dialect, particularly as
>>it is portrayed, etc. in the movie Fargo.  I chose this topic since most of
>>my family came from northern Wisc. and I have been surrounded by this
>>speech (in a much less exaggerated form of course) all my life.  So far I
>>am having little luck finding any scholarly sources--I may be looking in
>>the wrong indices since I am a lit. major.  Can anyone help me--or at least
>>steer me in the right direction?
>>
>>Linda McMillan
>>lindi[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netnitco. com
>>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:22:45 -0500
From:    Caren Gibbens <gibbenc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NYTIMES.COM>
Subject: Re: Fargo

Hi.  I recevied this.  But I don't think I am the person you are trying to
reach.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:17:26 EST
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: arbitrariness of derivational morphology

"Why can't CONTEMPT be made into a verb in English?" asked my Turkish student.
"And why can't DESPISE be made into a noun?" English is so very flexible when
it comes to interchanging categories--with and without derivational
morphology--one wonders why we can't say, "*David feels the sailor's
despise/despisation for him" or "*Giovanni contempts/contemptates Jacques."

Any answers--other than the usual language-is-arbitrary response?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Mar 1998 17:20:33 EST
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd:  dialect

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--part0_890259633_boundary
Content-ID: <0_890259633[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Anyone want to take a crack at this?

--part0_890259633_boundary
Content-ID: <0_890259633[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.2>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

Return-Path: <daveshaw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bu.edu>
Received: from  relay14.mx.aol.com (relay14.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.14]) by
        air12.mail.aol.com (v40.9) with SMTP; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:53:12 -0500
Received: from acs6.bu.edu (ACS6.BU.EDU [128.197.152.60])
          by relay14.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0)
          with ESMTP id OAA20755 for <ronbutters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>;
          Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:53:10 -0500 (EST)
Received: from localhost (daveshaw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]localhost) by acs6.bu.edu (8.8.5/) with
        SMTP id OAA81578 for <ronbutters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>; Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:53:10
        -0500
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 14:53:09 -0500 (EST)
From: Dave Shaw <daveshaw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bu.edu>
To: ronbutters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com
Subject: dialect
Message-ID: <Pine.A32.3.96.980318144552.74000A-100000[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acs6.bu.edu>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Professor Butters,

Good afternoon, my name is Dave Shaw and I am a reporter at the Daily Free
Press, the independent student paper at Boston University.

I'm writing a story for our business section regarding how words like
"going postal" or "blamestorming" find their way into business language
and standard usage in English.

I would appreciate any help you could offer. My telephone number is
617/232.6841 and my email address is daveshaw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bu.edu.

Thank you,
Dave


--part0_890259633_boundary--

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:31:44 -0600
From:    Tom Head <tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETDOOR.COM>
Subject: Re: arbitrariness of derivational morphology

On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, RonButters wrote:

> "Why can't CONTEMPT be made into a verb in English?" asked my Turkish
 student.
> "And why can't DESPISE be made into a noun?" English is so very flexible when
> it comes to interchanging categories--with and without derivational
> morphology--one wonders why we can't say, "*David feels the sailor's
> despise/despisation for him" or "*Giovanni contempts/contemptates Jacques."
>
> Any answers--other than the usual language-is-arbitrary response?

There's no reason why it can't.  I think that "despise" as a noun may be a
little too awkward for my tastes, but "contempt" as a verb seems profound
and very useful.  I may very well use it in this manner myself now that I
have read your post, when I am not writing formal papers (which I
contempt).


Peace be with you,

Tom Head
tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]netdoor.com
http://www2.netdoor.com/~tlh

"This is the exalted melancholy of our fate, that every 'Thou' in
our world must become an 'It'."
                                        -- Martin Buber

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Mar 1998 16:56:14 -0800
From:    Devon Coles <dcoles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HORIZON.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: arbitrariness of derivational morphology

>On Wed, 18 Mar 1998, RonButters wrote:
>
>> "Why can't CONTEMPT be made into a verb in English?" asked my Turkish
student.
>> "And why can't DESPISE be made into a noun?" English is so very flexib=
le
when
>> it comes to interchanging categories--with and without derivational
>> morphology--one wonders why we can't say, "*David feels the sailor's
>> despise/despisation for him" or "*Giovanni contempts/contemptates
Jacques."
>>
>> Any answers--other than the usual language-is-arbitrary response?
>
Tom Head responded:
>There's no reason why it can't.  I think that "despise" as a noun may be=
 a
>little too awkward for my tastes, but "contempt" as a verb seems profoun=
d
>and very useful.  I may very well use it in this manner myself now that =
I
>have read your post, when I am not writing formal papers (which I
>contempt).

My guess is that the noun =91contempt' and the verb =91contemn' are relat=
ed. I
had no trouble finding =91despisement' (as a noun related to the verb
=91despise')  in my 1981 Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, but note wi=
th
interest that my brand new 9th Edition Oxford Concise Dictionary doesn't
include this noun at all.
There must be a more fundamental answer, though. Looking at synonyms for
contempt lead me to the same question about why they can't be made into
verbs. I'm thinking of words like sarcasm, arrogance, aversion, haughtine=
ss,
impiety, irony, irreverence, revulsion and sacrilege. He sarcasted me?
Milords arroganced one another? Hmm....

Cheers,
Devon Coles
dcoles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]horizon.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 19 Mar 1998 05:29:39 +0300
From:    USIS Vladivostok <usisvlad[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ONLINE.RU>
Subject: Sources for audio tapes of American regional dialects

Dear All,

Could anybody help me locate sources of American regional dialects
audio/video tapes? I am the librarian at the United States Information
Service in Vladivostok, Russia. Professors from a local university asked me
to help locate and, maybe, acquire tapes for their American dialects
classes. I am interested both in commercial vendors and language lab
collections that could be bought/shared. If an official letter from the
university in question is required, that can be furnished, I guess.

Could you please write directly to me at <usisvlad[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]online.ru>

Thank you all in advance.

Tatiana Sidorova
Information Resources Center
USIS Vladivostok

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Mar 1998 21:42:04 EST
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Sources for audio tapes of American regional dialects

I know that the Center for Applied Linguistics has a tape archive that they
collected several years ago. I suggest you contact the Director, Dr. Donna
Christian, at <donna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cal.org>.

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Mar 1998 to 18 Mar 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/18/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 16 Mar 1998 to 17 Mar 1998             98-03-18 00:00:35
There are 6 messages totalling 194 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. midwestern pronunciation (2)
  2. mebos PS
  3. DES MOINES/NINE
  4. mebos and zori
  5. children's rhymes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Mar 1998 01:02:46 -0600
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: midwestern pronunciation

>At 02:54 PM 3/16/98 -0600, Donald M. Lance wrote:
>
>>> Should we consider Des Moines/fifty-nine an eye
>>>rhyme, a slant rhyme, or an exact rhyme?  Is there any evidence than an
>>>Iowa-born Kansan in the late 19th and early 20th century would pronounce
>>>"Des Moines" and "nine" alike, and if so, would it be close to "Des Mine" or
>>>"noin"?
>>>
>>>Alan Baragona
>>
>>Perhaps related to join/jine, boil/bile, etc.
>>
>>
>
>That's why I was wondering.  If this were British English of a certain
>period and region, that's what I'd assume.  But is this a phonetic pattern
>found in the midwest at the time in question?

I can't answer that.  A couple of days ago I had Harold Allen's volume on
pronunciation in the Upper Midwest but turned it in because it was overdue,
so I can't check things there.

The way these pronunciations would have been related to join/jine, as I
assume you understand in your reference to earlier British English, is that
the "long i" was schwa-I rather than ah-I and "oi" had a centralish onset
as well.  I wouldn't be surprised to find some Americans in many parts of
the country in the 19th century with vowels of that sort.  So it could have
been a rhyme or near rhyme.  Your original posting didn't give enough of
the context to allow for more than speculation.  Could the poet have been
playing with language?

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Mar 1998 09:52:53 -0500
From:    Alan Baragona <baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU>
Subject: Re: midwestern pronunciation

At 01:02 AM 3/17/98 -0600, Donald M. Lance wrote:
>
>The way these pronunciations would have been related to join/jine, as I
>assume you understand in your reference to earlier British English, is that
>the "long i" was schwa-I rather than ah-I and "oi" had a centralish onset
>as well.  I wouldn't be surprised to find some Americans in many parts of
>the country in the 19th century with vowels of that sort.  So it could have
>been a rhyme or near rhyme.  Your original posting didn't give enough of
>the context to allow for more than speculation.  Could the poet have been
>playing with language?
>
>DMLance
>

Doubtful that this is deliberate language play.  The clumsiness of that
opening stanza seems typical of Dunn's verse.  He was a folk poet with no
pretensions to quality.  This partiular book of poems went through 5
editions (at least) but probably as much for the agricultural advice in the
back as for the poetry.

Alan B.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Mar 1998 10:30:49 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: mebos PS

My apologies if I have already posted this postscript. When I quoted a South
 African (children's?) song in English using
this word, a week or so ago, I didn't remember any clues as to whether the song
 was originally in English or was
translated, presumably from Afrikaans. Continuing to reminisce over the next few
 days, I recalled that the verse I
remembered was followed by a verse in Afrikaans, in which I could make out
 enough to be pretty confident that it was
the equivalent, so the song evidently *was* originally in Afrikaans. (Oh, I
 suppose it *could* have been written in English,
and translated into Afrikaans.)

Also, for correctness' sake: I quoted the English verse with the word
 "tuppence". I'm pretty sure it was "thruppence".

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Mar 1998 11:28:33 EST
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: DES MOINES/NINE

I don't think that a merger of /ay/ and /oy/ is typical of 19th century
Midwesrtern. Probably we are just dealing with an off-rhyme here.

However the author pronounced DES MOINES and NINE, they would not have rhymed.
Today /oy/ and /ay/ are phonemically distinct in the Midwest, so it seems
likely (though not totally certain) that they did not merge completely in the
19th century and then split again in the 20th. I can't prove it, but my memory
of my great-grandmother Bishop's speech (she was born in 1860 in Northfield,
Minnesota, and lived most of her life in east central Iowa [Linn County]) is
that she had no merger of /oy/ and /ay/.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Mar 1998 12:33:51 +0900
From:    Daniel Long <dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP>
Subject: Re: mebos and zori

The underwhelming response to my mebos query was not a surprise.  I had
never heard the word myself, so I didn't expect a lot of other people
(especially fellow North Americans) to be familiar with it.

I did find the word in a 'net search.  It comes up on the shopping page
of a company that sells food to South African ex-pats in Australia, for
example.  (I suppose in a country where people eat vegamite, you have to
import food!)  It also appears on a page of "Rhodesians Worldwide".
This seems to go along with what OED says, and indicates that the term
(1) is used in southern Africa, and (2) isn't used much outside of that
area.  This brings us back to the "zori" idea in which we had a loanword
which is a regionalism in the receiving language.

Danny Long

P.S.  Apologies to the Australians I've offended.  I understand from
Aussie friends that y'all don't care much for peanut butter either.
--
Daniel Long, Associate Professor    NEW tel  +81-6-723-8297
Japanese Language Research Center   NEW fax  +81-6-723-8302
Osaka Shoin Women's College         dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp
4-2-26 Hishiyanishi                 http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/
Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Mar 1998 22:19:27 -0600
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: children's rhymes

Duane Campbell wrote:

> Ring Around the Rosey is commonly sung as so - so - me - la - so - me, but
> that's not the only thing this riff is used for. Johnnie's got a
> girlfriend.  I know where you're going. I was surprised to hear small
> children in Germany and France using the same ditty for their own purposes.
> Anyone have an idea of its provinance?
>
> Duane Campbell  dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net
> http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/

 I have no direct answer.  There was a song that used that element, but it
clearly was a musical quotation, not the original source.

I refer to a World War II song about a U.S. pilot in the Pacific.   The "so -
so - me - la - so - me"  phrase was adapted to the words "Johnny got a Zero",
meaning the Japanese fighter plane.  Not a great song, but quite popular for
its message.  The song begins with kids teasing Johnny for bad test results
back in school -- and ends with triumphant affirmation of military success.

Oh, God, now that damned tune will stick in my head all night.  "Johnny got a
Zero, he got another Zero, Johnny got a Zero, today!"  And me a pacifist in the
first place.  Sticking it in the heads of some other old-timers out there is
all I can do to pay you back for bringing it up at all.

Now for my own dialect inquiry:  Duane says "so - me - la".  Back in grade
school, I'm pretty sure I was taught to spell the scale "do - re - mi - fa -
sol - la - ti - do", except for a couple of holdout music teachers who insisted
that the 7th should be "si", not "ti".  (The "l" in "sol" for the 5th was
pronounced by all.)  Without sending me back to the school of solfaggio, or to
shapenote singers, does anyone recall hearing other variants in these words for
the musical scale?  (I'm asking for words used in English more or less within
living human memory.)

--  mike
salovesh
<salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
     anthropology department
     northern illinois
university                                                        PEACE !!!

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Mar 1998 to 17 Mar 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/17/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 14 Mar 1998 to 16 Mar 1998             98-03-17 00:00:12
This message contains more text than QuickMail can display. The entire message
 has been enclosed as a file.

There are 22 messages totalling 1147 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. wife-beaters (3)
  2. EuroEnglish (3)
  3. standardization of non-standard forms
  4. "spittin' image"
  5. WOW!! EURO-ENGLISH IS CERTAINLY DIFFERENT!!
  6. midwestern pronunciation (5)
  7. children's rhymes (2)
  8. RE>Re: children's rhymes (4)
  9. spittin' image (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 16 Mar 1998 00:27:19 -0500
From:    Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: wife-beaters

Whoa!  Sorry for the late reply, but I just saw _A Streetcar Named Desire_
last night on Turner Classic Movies, and when I saw this post tonight the
link was immediate . . . and a little troubling.  But that's the movie, of
course.  I've never, never heard this usage, but I'm becoming increasingly
unhip in my early middle-age.  I'll query my students tomorrow.


On Mon, 9 Mar 1998, Peter Richardson wrote:

> My niece, who is a student at Trinity Univ. in Texas, told me last night
> that white, sleeveless undershirts are known there as "wife beaters." Can
> anyone confirm this usage elsewhere?
>
> Peter Richardson
>

Bob Haas
UNCG Department of English
rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu

                    "No matter where you go, there you are."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 16 Mar 1998 07:59:57 EST
From:    CLAndrus <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: EuroEnglish

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--part0_890053197_boundary
Content-ID: <0_890053197[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

I think everyone will find this enjoyable. Carol Andrus

--part0_890053197_boundary
Content-ID: <0_890053197[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.2>
Content-type: application/octet-stream;
        name="EUROEN~1.WPD"
Content-transfer-encoding: base64
Content-disposition: inline

/1dQQ3UcAAABCgIBAAAAAgUAAAAUMQAAAAIAAFnssnzVo1Ena3gTr+9GDaWgxTDOCInGfSFM
KU+ZnF8nL5qWXxdeDJUUTKYSDvkOHRkLKoMEBdzfmm6sIXLSRcSJ8Ri2ONCKiimz5VYHYnHp
38Hgh6h7sUj+mL/VSonHZ2/SALbljgEiWfv2Yt/xlUu+ldpttzfKg8q0mYmFIj06F4cvIAp8
Z3y5kL9qPJbk0wP2oJbep7/lq2oD4v5Dhe4hU/w+/PgmNK0nWGm0n5M+PhMGo81++RVtgnlH
8r06qYZMixF7Rl4/6YHsz+i6lNKTGo4Dy6EUCq+quPDjG1R6UX77dLklKh29CmFfGmkymZM/
L1S+yLDDjVN3IvEG6hW4oX4D5MKgzjlRiTY8zeCJ46dI2Y8mlhuSpF16akt3AeA89L7zORkG
tgj22OvHrTerzM+qMg9bfySxo1Fc2L/g4c/gQnBbSC7rfabhRCAToReYCcsZMp5fJPhEVPHV
m0wIsGBLyl2Gd5HbVe/6e5Xrjw+1OkHvyt5klAhW2hKNzufrpNKwUzqhdBn48M8xOme0P6HD
aQ7D6JuyoA0JAcfP1hAZx/WlDzyciSG91TuVsDvPEpXUP82xNFVb5MvNx/sI4DAEXi8N0siD
JISoo5G+E95+2LkVfdi77ywdQXwnWe3AL0ECAEoAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABVBgABADwAAAAMBgAA
CzABAAAAPAAAAEgGAAALMAEAAAA8AAAAhAYAAAgSAQAAAIoCAADABgAACUIFAAAAHQAAAEoJ
AAAJRAIAAAAzAAAAZwkAAAgRAgAAAMYAAACaCQAACzAEAAAAqQAAAGAKAAALMAIAAAAoAAAA
CQsAAAlBAgACAE0AAAAxCwAAAG8BAAAAfQMAAH4LAAABQAEAAgAIAAAA+w4AAAlEAwAAACsA
AAADDwAAAFUBAAAAQAAAAC4PAAAAVQkAAQA4AAAAbg8AAAgCAQAAABAAAACmDwAACzAEAAAA
jgAAALYPAAAAVQoAAABOAAAARBAAAAklAQAAAAYAAACSEAAACB0BAAAAAAAAAJgQAAAAVQQA
AAA4AAAAmBAAAAgFAQAAAAgAAADQEAAAAFUFAAEARAAAANgQAAAAVQIAAAA+AAAAHBEAAAh3
AQAAAEAAAABaEQAACDQBAAAAFAAAAJoRAAAIEAEAAAACAAAArhEAAAltAQAAABcAAACwEQAA
AggBAAAArQAAAMcRAAAJMQIAAABtAAAAdBIAAAFAAQAAAGIAAADhEgAAAG8BAAAATAMAAEMT
AAACCAAAAQALAAAAjxYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACPFgAAAFUBAAAAVgAAAJoWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
mhYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACaFgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAJoWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAmhYAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AACaFgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAJoWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAmhYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACaFgAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAJoWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAmhYAAAlBAQABAFEAAADwFgAACBECAAAAxgAAAEEXAAALMAIA
AACqAAAABxgAAAswAgAAAEQAAACxGAAACUQCAAAALwAAAPUYAAAJQgcAAAAdAAAAJBkAAAlB
AgAAAE0AAABBGQAACBECAAAAxgAAAI4ZAAALMAIAAABEAAAAVBoAAAlEAQAAADMAAACYGgAA
CUQBAAAAMwAAAMsaAAAJQgUAAAAdAAAA/hoAAAlEAQAAADMAAAAbGwAACUIFAAAAKgAAAE4b
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAThsAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABOGwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAE4bAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
ThsAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABOGwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAE4bAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAThsAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AABOGwAACUQBAAAAMwAAAHgbAAAJQgUAAAAdAAAAqxsAAAlEAQAAADMAAADIGwAACUIFAAAA
HQAAAPsbAAAJRAEAAAAzAAAAGBwAAAlCBQAAACoAAABLHAAAGwD0GlwSGgkAABEJAAAAYAAY
EQAAECQAVABpAG0AZQBzACAATgBlAHcAAABSAG8AbQBhAG4AAAAAAAAAAQAAAAQAPAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACAP//OgBEAGUAZgBhAHUAbAB0ACAAUABhAHIAYQAAAAAAAQAAAAQA
PAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACAP//OgBGAG8AbwB0AG4AbwB0AGUAIABSAGUAZgAAAAAA
EgAnAAwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEgAOAAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACAIRAAEAAAAgAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAoAEgABAAAAAAAiAAUAAQAAAEMAQQBSAE8ATAAgAEEATgBEAFIA
VQBTAAAACgAwAAEAAAAAAAoALgABAAAAAAAKAAIAAQAAAAAACgAaAAEAAAAAAAoAAQACAAAA
AAAAABkABAAAAAAAEQAAEAABCwAAEAAAAAAAAGQAAAQABQAFAAUABQAnAAQAAAD//x8ADwAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAyADIAMgAyAAAAABkAHgAAAAAZIEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAgAAAAAAIAAgAEwAZQB2AGUAbAAgADEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgACAATABlAHYA
ZQBsACAAMgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACAAIABMAGUAdgBlAGwAIAAzAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
IAAgAEwAZQB2AGUAbAAgADQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAgACAATABlAHYAZQBsACAANQAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAEAAAAEACgAAACBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATLQFSQAowAAAKMAAADdChAA
gwERAAMAhtIhEADd0gAOAAACAAgHsAQOANLSAQ4AAAIACAewBA4A0tMFDAAAAQAAAAwA09Qb
HwCAARIACAD0AQywAQD1AQAAWAISAFgCAAAfANTUGh8AgAEBAAgA9AEMsAEA9QEBAPUBEgD0
AQywHwDU3QsLAAMAAAQLAN0BAAAABAAoAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEC//8kAJIAAACS
AAAABAAHAAgACQAGAEEABAAAAAAAAQABEAAAAQUAAAECAQAAADwPATwPBQAAAAoAAAcABmMB
//8AAAUAAQIAAAAFAAACAAAAAgAAAAIAAAD/V1BDEAAAAAEWAgAAAAAAAwEAFyIAIgAAAAAy
/10BAAAAADL/XQEAAAAABCEBFAAAAAAy/10BAAABAB8AwAAAAAAABBIA/wCALgMAAAEACQAA
A5QBAAACAF4BAAAAAAUAAAALAjL/AAAFAAAADALOAF0BBAAAAAYBAQAJAAAA+gIFAAAAAAD/
//8AIgAEAAAALQEAAF4BAABDDyAAzAAAADQAWAAAAAAAMv9dAQAAAAAoAAAAWAAAADQAAAAB
AAEAAAAAAHACAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP///wD/////bre/Nb///wD///9sklkw
4cb//wD//++dyDJMmCHv/wD///NGkZunc1JfPwD//9iQTO3n78kR/wD//8ZDLv/f9zYjDwD/
/lTP3///9/9K9wD/6hCb5//////EewD/0WJ39/////9rXwD/wlH3///f3/+xPwD/ISWz/gfv
fAPZpwD/wku+wADHMADYiwD+SFneDqgeBbgqRwD+qsfpX9IXi/6ojQD7ERd1AA1PKAHMwwD9
BV7cP8Mzwf5YaQD5iSbIwDkv5AO+TQDxBGtn/wRn810WGQD4KNcpQHH3+O/7iwD6yT5/qo9P
+h//xQDyEXXv/T//+8//ZwD0RZ9//zwf8Of8YwD5Knjf/5gv4GflJQDyROe//8IIjMw/kgD1
EN/H/01AKv/w1QD0TJ38staOX//AUQD+Rdx///+/f/0BSQD9KcwA///t/7ABawD+LcwCAbvz
/AADawD+icwDwAAAAQAC2wD/jOYBwB+AHwAG2wD/xOYAAA+AHgAN0wD/4rMAAAAAAAAbcwD/
4bmAAAAAABwmZwD/8ZmAAAAAABhO7wD/+JzADgAA8AGczwD/+E0wHwAB+Aa9nwD//AcMHgAB
+AjrvwD//jPTgAAAAOn/PwD//xnwbff/3yf+fwD//456A33/uD7d/wD//+WfkABEI/37/wD/
//j37qk2//en/wD///xTe/6//8+P/wD///4db///v9x//wD////L1n1/76P//wD////wU5P/
8o///wD/////BWf/uT///wD/////4RP16P///wD/////+EpX0////wD//////xS6j////wD/
/////+AAP////wAHAAAA/AIBAAAAAAAAAAQAAAAtAQEABAAAAC0BAAADAAAAAAAAAAAABAIA
AAEACwABAAAAAAAnAAQAAAAAAB8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAyADIAMgAyAAAAABkAHgAAAAAZAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAJEQAAACAEJBAAABAoAEkAbQBwAHIAaQBuAHQAIABNAFQAAABTAGgAYQBkAG8A
dwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGgkAAAAgACQQAAAQIABCAG8AbwBrACAAQQBuAHQAaQBxAHUA
YQAAAAAAAAAAAAgjfAB4AAECAAAmAAAAAQABAAAABAAoAAAAZgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAES
htIkAKEAAAChAAAA0gAOAAACAAgHsAQOANLSAQ4AAAIACAewBA4A0tMFDAAAAQAAAAwA09Qb
HwCAARIACAD0AQzVAQD1AQAAWAISAFgCAAAfANTUGh8AgAEBAAgA9AEM1QEA9QEBAPUBEgD0
AQzVHwDUeADWHsMPOQgAABEJAAAAWgAbAQCLFDYAVABpAG0AZQBzACAATgBlAHcAIABSAG8A
bQBhAG4AIABSAGUAZwB1AGwAYQByAAAAAAAAAAAAAQASAFgClgBAH0YQ0AcAAAABAAAAWgAT
AACLFCAAQQBlAHIAbwAgAFIAZQBnAHUAbABhAHIAAAAAAAAAAAABAAkAAgAAAJYAQB9qEtAH
AAAAAQAAAFoAEwAAixQsAEcAZQB0AHQAeQBzAGIAdQByAGcAIABSAGUAZwB1AGwAYQByAAAA
AAAAAAAAdwDmHigPKQgAABEJAAAAWgAbAQCLFCYAVABpAG0AZQBzACAATgBlAHcAIABSAG8A
bQBhAG4AAAAAAAAAAAAKAAAAHAABAEUAHQACAAIAHgABAAIAHwACAIEBIAABAL8DIQABAAIA
IgABAEQAIwABABkBJQARAIIBJgABAEQAiYNkJAAAAADFmMINJ69xZpwBAv4BAAIAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAD/VRqL/wAAwMDAAQAKAAAAowAAAJvdChAAgwEeAAMAIGUtEADd3QsLAAMAAAALAN3f
AocAgAI0AB8AUwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEMAPwAAahIAAHwHAAAAAAECAAAAANgnAJAzDwAA
cAMIAADAAQE2IkQtEBoQAABADAAASAICAAAAAAAAAAAEAABADwYAAEUCwALAAlgiEC4AAAAA
WCIQLgAAAAAAAAAAwALAAlgiEC4AAACHAN8IAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAjIGUAAQMAAQMA
ATMANwA9AEMASQBRAFkAYQBnAK0AAACtAAAAMQAuAAAAYQAuAAAAaQAuAAAAKAAxACkAAAAo
AGEAKQAAACgAaQApAAAAMQApAAAAYQApAAAAAQAgAAEAYwA6AFwAQwBvAHIAZQBsAFwATwBm
AGYAaQBjAGUANwBcAEcAcgBhAHAAaABpAGMAcwBcAEIAbwByAGQAZQByAHMAXABCAE8AUgBE
ADAANgBQAC4AVwBQAEcAAAD/V1BDEAAAAAEWAgAAAAAABAEFF7AEsAQA0QImAwclajDRAiYD
ByVqMCsAAwMAENgnkDMAAFgCWAJYAlgCAAADBAAQAAAAACwBAAAAAAAALAEAAAMFAA4AACwB
BAAAACwBBAAAAAM1AAIAAAMxAAUA////AAQrAAQBAAEABCUABFVV/wAEFQAqKmAhADX1AAA1
9QAAXQZ7AAAA5qbeAAAABADaA7wv2gNCMF8EQjBfBLwvBCsABBYAFgAEJQAEAAAAAAQVADIq
gCIANfUAADX1AABdBnsAAADmpt4AAAAGANoDvC/aA0IwXwRCMF8EvC/aA7wv2gO8LwQrAAQB
AAEABBUAKipgIwA19QAANfUAAF0GewAAAOam3gAAAAQANyS8LzckQjC8JEIwvCS8LwQrAAQW
ABYABBUAMiqAJAA19QAANfUAAF0GewAAAOam3gAAAAYANyS8LzckQjC8JEIwvCS8LzckvC83
JLwvBCsABAEAAQAEFQAqKmAlADX1AAA19QAAXQZ7AAAA5qbeAAAABAA4JMMDOCRIBL4kSAS+
JMMDBCsABBYAFgAEFQAyKoAmADX1AAA19QAAXQZ7AAAA5qbeAAAABgA4JMMDOCRIBL4kSAS+
JMMDOCTDAzgkwwMEKwAEAQABAAQVACoqYCcANfUAADX1AABdBnsAAADmpt4AAAAEANwDwwPc
A0gEYgRIBGIEwwMEKwAEFgAWAAQVADIqgCgANfUAADX1AABdBnsAAADmpt4AAAAGANwDwwPc
A0gEYgRIBGIEwwPcA8MD3APDAwQrAAQKAAoABBUAfiqAKQA19QAANfUAAF0GewAAAOam3gAA
ABkArAKdLqwCjAOYBIwDmAR+BKYDfgSmA5IC7SGSAvQkkgL0JH4EAiR+BAIkjAPuJYwD7CWd
LuwleDABJHgwASSGL/Ikhi/yJHIxqwZyMaQDcjGkA4YvlQSGL5UEeDCqAngwrAKdLgQrAAQW
ABYABBUAXiqAKgA19QAANfUAAF0GewAAAOam3gAAABEAfAK6LnwCpjByA6YwcgOYMacGmDEk
JZgxJCWmMBompjAaJrouHCZfAyYlXwMmJW0C8SFtAnMDbQJzA18DfgJfA3wCui4EAgAAAQAK
AAAAAQAAAJuwAGshIhakBQAAAAEAAABaABMAAIsUPgBHAGEAcgBhAGcAZQBTAGgAbwBjAGsA
RQB4AHQAZQBuAGQAZQBkACAAUgBlAGcAdQBsAGEAcgAAAAAAAAAAAAUALwAwAAgAMQAyAEMA
BAAAAf7/AQABEAAAAQUAAAECAQAAADwPATwPBwAAAQICAAIABwAGQwL//wAABQABAgAAAAUA
AAIAAAACAAAAAgAAAIMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAA
AEwAZQB2AGUAbAAgADEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATABlAHYAZQBsACAAMgAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAABMAGUAdgBlAGwAIAAzAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEwAZQB2AGUAbAAg
ADQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATABlAHYAZQBsACAANQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEAAAAE
ACgAAACCAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATNuPSQAogAAAKIAAADdChAAgwERAAMAhtIhEADd0gAO
AAACAAgHsAQOANLSAQ4AAAIACAewBA4A0tMFDAAAAQAAAAwA09QbHwCAARIACAD0AQywAQD1
AQAAWAISAFgCAAAfANTUGh8AgAEBAAgA9AEMsAEA9QEBAPUBEgD0AQywHwDU3QsMAAMBAAAE
DADdAQAAAAQAKAAAAAMAAAAZAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABEwMkJACUAAAAlAAAAPIM8toCCwADAQAA
CwDaMtoDCgADAAAKANrzDPMCADMAMwAnAAQAAAH3/x8ADAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AABkAHgAAAAAZAAAGQAEAAAA/P8RAABQAAELAABQABAAAAAAZAAABAA1AAgANgANAEEABAAA
Af3/AQABEAAAAQUAAAECAQAAADwPATwPBQAAAAoAAAcABkMC//8AAAUAAQIAAAAFAAACAAAA
AgAAAAIAAACEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEAAAAAAAAAAABMAGUA
dgBlAGwAIAAxAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEwAZQB2AGUAbAAgADIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAATABlAHYAZQBsACAAMwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABMAGUAdgBlAGwAIAA0AAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEwAZQB2AGUAbAAgADUAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAABAAoAAAA
AwAAABkAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAETAyQkAJUAAACVAAAA8gzy2gILAAMBAAALANoy2gMKAAMAAAoA
2vMM8wQAMwAzADMAMwAnAAQAAAH7/x8ADwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABkAHgAAAAA
ZAQAOQA5ADkAOQAnAAQAAAH9/x8ADwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABkAHgAAAAAZAAA
GQAEAAAA/v8RAAAQAAELAAAQABAAAAAAZAAEBAA7ADsAOwA7ACcABAAAAfL/HwAPAAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGQAeAAAAABkAAAmAAQAAAD1/x4AAFAAAgsAACAAEAAAAABkAAAL
AAAgABAAAAAAZAAABABFAEUARQBFACcABAAAAfP/HwAPAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
AGQAeAAAAABkAAAZAAQAAAD2/xEAACAAAQsAACAAEAAAAABkAAAEAEcARwBHAEcAJwAEAAAB
/P8fAA8AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAZAB4AAAAAGQAABkABAAAAP3/EQAAEAABCwAA
EAAQAAAAAGQABQQASQBJAEkASQAnAAQAAAH+/x8ADwAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABk
AHgAAAAAZAAAJgAEAAAA//8eAAAwAAILAAAQABAAAAAAZAAACwAAEAAQAAAAAGQAAN0KEACD
AREAAwCG0iEQAN3SAA4AAAIACAewBA4A0tIBDgAAAgAIB7AEDgDS0wUMAAABAAAADADT1Bsf
AIABEgAIAPQBDLABAPUBAABYAhIAWAIAAB8A1NQaHwCAAQEACAD0AQywAQD1AQEA9QESAPQB
DLAfANTdCwsAAwAABAsA3ZvxAiUA8dQbHwCHAQEACAC8Ak3ZAgC7AgEA9QEBAPQBDLAfANTx
AyUA8dMPQwCAAg0AAAAgAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAEAAAgAwAAEgCAhAAEAAAAAAAAACwBAAA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABDANPxACUA8dQbHwCAAQEACAC8Ak3xAgC7AgEA9QEBAPQBDNUfANTx
ASUA8dQaHwCAAQ4ACAC8AqPKAwC7AgIAuwIBALwCTdkfANTxAB8A8d8CiQCAAwoADAAAAFMA
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABDAD8AAHgSAAB8FxABeAABAQHnAADoCAAWAw8AAHADCAAAwAEBHTBm
HBAaBAAAgAEBEAAAQAwAAEgCAksASwBLAEsAAABFAoAHlwXoCBYDEAAQAMgI9gIAAAAAAAAA
ADUHTAV+CawDAAAAiQDf8QEfAPHxAiAA8dYGFQCAAR0AAQADAAAAAAD//xUA1vEDIADx8QAl
APHxAh8A8d8ChwCABQoADAAAAAAAAABNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPQA5AAB8EgAAfBcQAXgA
AQEB5wAA6AgAFgMPAABwAwgAAMABAR0wZhwQGgQAAIABAQQAAIABAQQAAIABAQAARQKAB5cF
6AgWAwAAAADoCBYDAAAAAAAAAACAB5cF6AgWAwAAAIcA3/EDHwDx8QElAPHxAiUA8d8ChwCA
BQoADAAAAAAAAABNAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPQA5AAB8EgAAfBcQAWv/AQEBR/8A8AgAUQQP
AABwAwgAAMABAR0wZhwQGgQAAIABAQQAAIABAQQAAIABAQAARQJzBvcD8AhRBAAAAADwCFEE
AAAAAAAAAABzBvcD8AhRBAAAAIcA3+IAGwAACQAAYw/QIGMP0CAIB9AgCAfQIBsA4vEDJQDx
zMzUGh8AgAEXAAgAvAIJ3wQAuwIDALsCDgC8AqPKHwDUzPECJQDx0gAOAAACALAECAcOANLi
ABsAAAkAAGMP0CBjD9AgsATQILAE0CAbAOLSAQ4AAAIAsAQIBw4A0uIAGwAACQAAYw8oI2MP
KCOwBCgjsAQoIxsA4vEDJQDx0wUMAAABAAIADADT8QIlAPHyC/LUGyMAhgEXAAgA9AEZMwUA
9QEEALsCFwC8AgnfhwAAACMA1NQbHwCHARcACACEA7x8BgCEAwUA9QEXAPQBGTMfANTUGh8A
hwEjAAgAhAPoBAcAhAMGAIQDFwCEA7x8HwDU8QMlAPFFVVJPgEVOR0xJU0jxAiUA8dQaIwCG
ARcACACEA7x8BgCEAwcAhAMjAIQD6AQDBAAAIwDU1BsjAIYBFwAIAPQBGTMFAPUBBgCEAxcA
hAO8fOQDAAAjANTzC/PxAyUA8fECIQDxKvEDIQDx8QIlAPHQBBUAAAsACQAB0AcgAwMAASAV
ANDiABsAAAkAALAEKCOwBCgjYw8oI2MPKCMbAOLxAyUA8fEAJQDxzPEBJQDx0wUMAAABAAEC
DADTzPEAJQDx1BsfAIABFwAIAFgCoKEKAFgCCQC7AhcAvALrih8A1PEBJQDx1BofAIABDwAI
APQBGJUIAPUBBQD1ARcA9AEZMx8A1NQaHwCHARIACAD0AQywAQD1AQgA9QEPAPQBGJUfANTx
ACUA8fECIwDx3wFhAIACLgAhAC0AAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAdABkAAGAKAAAwBQAAAQIBAgAJ
AABgAQQAAIABAQAARQKUEQIKPA9UAmQAtAB0DuwAAAAAAAAAAADMEAAKzBAeAwABAGEA3/ED
IwDx8QElAPHxAiUA8dMXLwCAAwAAAAAAAB4AAQAAAAAAAAAAAAAAZAAAAwAAAAAAAAAAAAAC
AAAALwDT8QMlAPGAgIDxACIA8UjxASIA8fEAJQDxYfEBJQDx8QIlAPHUGx8AhwESAAgAvAJN
2QIAuwIBAPUBEgD0AQywHwDU4gUOAAAEAAAAAAAOAOJI4gQOAAAEAAAAAAAOAOLiCAsAAAEA
AAsA4mHxAyUA8XZpbmeAY2hvc2VugEVuZ2xpc2iAYXOAdGhlgHByZWZlcnJlZIBsYW5ndWFn
ZYBpboB0aGWARUVDLIB0aGWARXVyb3BlYW7QARUAAAsACQABCApYBQUAASAVANDiABsAAAkA
AmAIKCNgCCgjsAQoI7AEKCMbAOJQYXJsaWFtZW50gGhhc4Bjb21taXNzaW9uZWSAYYBmZWFz
aWJpbGl0eYBzdHVkeYBpboB3YXlzgG9mgGltcHJvdmluZ8/iABsAAAkAAmAIKCNgCCgjYAgo
I2AIKCMbAOJlZmZpY2llbmN5gGlugGNvbW11bmljYXRpb25zgGJldHdlZW6AR292ZXJubWVu
dIBkZXBhcnRtZW50cy7M4gAbAAAJAACwBCgjsAQoI2AIKCNgCCgjGwDi0wsOAAACAFgCAAAO
ANNFdXJvcGVhboBvZmZpY2lhbHOAaGF2ZYBvZnRlboBwb2ludGVkgG91dIB0aGF0gEVuZ2xp
c2iAc3BlbGxpbmeAaXOAdW5uZWNlc3Nhcmlsec9kaWZmaWN1bHQ7gGZvcoBleGFtcGxlOoBj
b3VnaCyAcGxvdWdoLIByb3VnaCyAdGhyb3VnaIBhbmSAdGhvcm91Z2gugFdoYXSAaXOAY2xl
YXJsec9uZWVkZWSAaXOAYYBwaGFzZWSAonByb2dyYW1tZaOAb2aAY2hhbmdlc4B0b4Bpcm9u
gG91dIB0aGVzZYBhbm9tYWxpZXMugFRoZYCicHJvZ3JhbW1lo893b3VsZCyAb2aAY291cnNl
LIBiZYBhZG1pbmlzdGVyZWSAYnmAYYBjb21taXR0ZWWAc3RhZmaAYXSAdG9wgGxldmVsgGJ5
gHBhcnRpY2lwYXRpbmfPbmF0aW9ucy7UGiMAhgEPAAgAvAKsfwoAuwICALsCEgC8Ak3ZKwUA
ACMA1NQaHwCHARUACAC8AnCCCwC7AgoAuwIPALwCrH8fANTQBBUAAAsACQABlBHkDAwAASAV
ANDUGiMAhgEPAAgAvAKsfwoAuwILALsCFQC8AnCCGwkAACMA1NQaHwCHARgACAC8Ak3ZAgC7
AgoAuwIPALwCrH8fANRJboB0aGWAZmlyc3SAeWVhciyAZm9ygGV4YW1wbGUsgHRoZYBjb21t
aXR0ZWWAd291bGSAc3VnZ2VzdIB1c2luZ4AncyeAaW5zdGVhZIBvZtABFQAACwAJAAGoEvgN
DQABIBUA0HRoZYBzb2Z0gCdjJy6AgKJTZXJ0YWlubHmjLICic2l2aWyjgHNlcnZhbnRzgGlu
gGFsbIBzaXRlc4B3b3VsZICicmVzaWV2ZaOAdGhpc4BuZXdzgHdpdGiAam95LoBUaGVuz3Ro
ZYBoYXJkgCdjJ4Bjb3VsZIBiZYByZXBsYWNlZIBieYAnayeAonNpbnNlo4Bib3RogGxldHRl
cnOAYXJlgKJwcm9ub3Vuc2Vko4BhbGlrZS6ATm90gG9ubHnPd291bGSAdGhpc4Cia2xlYXKj
gHVwgKJrb25mdXNpb26jgGlugHRoZYBtaW5kc4BvZoCia2xlcmlrYWyjgHdvcmtlcnMsgGJ1
dIB0eXBld3JpdGVyc4Cia291bGSjz2JlgG1hZGWAd2l0aIBvbmWAbGVzc4BsZXR0ZXIuzFRo
ZXJlgHdvdWxkgGJlgGdyb3dpbmeAZW50aHVzaWFzbYB3aGVugGlugHRoZYCic2Vrb25ko4B5
ZWFyLIBpdIB3YXOAomFub3Vuc2Vko890aGF0gHRoZYB0cm91Ymxlc29tZYAncGgngHdvdWxk
gKJoZW5zZWZvcnRoo4BiZYB3cml0dGVugCdmJy7MVGhpc4B3b3VsZIBtYWtlgHdvcmRzgGxp
a2WAJ6Jmb3RvZ3JhZqMngHR3ZW50eYBwZXKAc2VudIBzaG9ydGVygGlugHByaW508gzyLtQa
IwCGAQ8ACAC8Aqx/CgC7AgIAuwIYALwCTdlyCQAAIwDU1BofAIcBFQAIALwCcIILALsCCgC7
Ag8AvAKsfx8A1PMM89AEFQAACwAJAAE0GoQVFAABIBUA0NQaIwCGAQ8ACAC8Aqx/CgC7AgsA
uwIVALwCcIIsDAAAIwDU1BofAIcBEgAIALwCTdkCALsCCgC7Ag8AvAKsfx8A1ElugHRoZYB0
aGlyZIB5ZWFyLICicHVibGlro4CiYWtzZXB0YW5zZaOAb2aAdGhlgG5ld4BzcGVsbGluZ4Ci
a2Fuo4BiZYCiZXhwZWt0ZWSjgHRv0AEVAAALAAkAAUwbnBYVAAEgFQDQonJlYXRzaKOAdGhl
gHN0YWdlgHdoZXJlgG1vcmWAomtvbXBsaWthdGVko4CidHNoYW5nZXOjgGFyZYBwb3NzaWJs
ZS6AR292ZXJubWVudHOAd291bGTPomVua291cmFnZaOAdGhlgHJlbW92YWyAb2aAZG91Ymxl
gGxldHRlcnOAd2hpY2iAaGF2ZYBhbHdheXOAYmVlboBhgKJkZXRlcmVudKOAdG+AomFrdXJh
dGWjz6JzcGVsaW5noy7MV2WAd291bGSAYWyAomFncmWjgHRoYXSAdGhlgKJob3JpYmxlo4Ci
bWVzo4BvZoBzaWxlbnSAJ2Unc4BpboB0aGWAomxhbmd1YWejgGlzgKJkaXNncmFzZnVsoy7P
olRoZXJmb3KjgHdlgKJrb3VsZKOAZHJvcICidGhlc6OAYW5kgKJrb250aW51o4B0b4ByZWFk
gGFuZIB3cml0gGFzgHRob3VnaIBub3RoaW5ngGhhZM+iaGFwZW5koy6AQnmAdGhpc4CidGlt
o4BpdIB3b3VsZIBiZYBmb3VygHllYXJzgHNpbnOAdGhlgKJza2Vto4BiZWdhboBhbmSAonBl
b3Bso4B3b3VsZIBiZc+icmVzZXB0aXajgHRvgHN0ZXBzgKJzdXRzaKOAYXOAonJlcGxhc2lu
Z6OAJ6J0aKMngGJ5gCd6Jy6AUGVyaGFwc4CiemVuo4CiemWjgKJmdW5rdGlvbqOAb2aAJ3cn
gKJrb3VsZKOAYmXUGiMAhgEPAAgAvAKsfwoAuwICALsCEgC8Ak3ZhgwAACMA1NQaHwCHARUA
CAC8AnCCCwC7AgoAuwIPALwCrH8fANTQARUAAAsACQAB2CIoHhwAASAVANDUGiMAhgEPAAgA
vAKsfwoAuwILALsCFQC8AnCCYw8AACMA1NQaHwCHARIACAC8Ak3ZAgC7AgoAuwIPALwCrH8f
ANR0YWtlboBvboBieYAndicsgKJ2aXRzaKOAaXMsgGFmdGVygGFsLIBoYWxmgGGAJ3cnLoBT
aG9ydGx5gGFmdGVygKJ6aXOjLICiemWjgKJ1bmVzZXNhcnmjgCdvJ4Cia291bGSjgGJl0AEV
AAALAAkAAewjPB8dAAEgFQDQomRyb3Bko4Bmcm9tgHdvcmRzgKJrb250YWluaW5no4Anom91
oycugIBTaW1pbGFygGFyZ3VtZW50c4CidnVko4BvZoCia29yc6OAYmWAomFwbGlko4B0b4Ci
b3plcqPPomtvbWJpbmF0aW9uc6OAb2aAomxldGVyc6MuzKJLb250aW51aW5no4Ciemlzo4Bw
cm9zZXOAonllcqOAYWZ0ZXKAonllcqMsgHZlgKJ2dWSjgKJldmVudHVsaaOAomhhdqOAYYCi
cmVsaaOAonNlbnNpYmyjgKJyaXRlbqOAonN0eWyjLs9BZnRlcoCidHZlbnRpo4CieWVyc6OA
onplcqOAonZ1ZKOAYmWAbm+AbW9yZYCidHJ1YmxzbaOAomRpZmlrdWx0aXOjgGFuZICiZXZy
aXZ1bqOAonZ1ZKOAZmlugGl0gKJlemmjgKJ0daPPdW5kZXJzdGFuZICiZXRzaKOAom96ZXKj
LoCiWmWjgKJkcmVtc6OAb2aATXIugKJPcnZlbKOAonZ1ZKOAomZpbmFsaaOAnGhhdvEAJgDx
ZfEBJgDxm4Cia3Vto4CidHJ1o/ECJQDx1BsjAIYBEgAIAPQBDLABAPUBAgC7AhIAvAJN2RYG
AAAjANTxAyUA8S7UGiMAhgEPAAgA9AEYlQgA9QEBAPUBEgD0AQywug8AACMA1NQaHwCHARUA
CAD0AcEvDwD1AQgA9QEPAPQBGJUfANTQBBUAAAsACQABUCmgJCIAASAVANDUGiMAhgEPAAgA
9AEYlQgA9QEPAPUBFQD0AcEvVxIAACMA1NMLDgAAAgAAAFgCDgDTzPEAJQDx1BsfAIABDwAI
APQBGNAGAPUBBQBYAg8AWAKXOx8A1PEBJQDx1BofAIABAQAIAPQBDLABAPUBCAD1AQ8A9AEY
lR8A1CpJgGZvdW5kgHRoaXOAd29uZGVyZnVsgHBpZWNlgGlugPII8lRoZYBCZXN0gEFtZXJp
Y2FugEh1bW9ygG9mgDE5OTTzCPMsgGVkaXRlZIBieYBNb3NoZYCiV2FsZG9rc6MsgHB1Ymxp
c2hlZIBieYBTaW1vbtABFQAACwAJAAEMK1wmJAABIBUA0CaAU2NodXN0ZXIugEl0gHdhc4Bs
aXN0ZWSAdW5kZXKAIk1pc2NlbGxhbmVvdXMsIoBhbmSAbm+AYXV0aG9ygHdhc4BsaXN0ZWQu
gITyCPJDYXJvbIBBbmRydXPzCPMsgPII8ldSSVRFgE9OgFRBUkdFVCyAOTjQARUAAAsACQAB
1CskJyUAASAVANBSaXZlcnNpZGWARHJpdmUsgE5ZQyyATlmAMfEAHADx8QIbAPGE8QMbAPHx
ARwA8fECHQDxMDAyNIDxAx0A8fECHgDxUGg6gPEDHgDx8QIdAPEyMTKENzI0hDc5NTgu8QMd
APHzCPPxACUA8dAEFQAACwAJAAHULCQoJgABIBUA0PEBJQDx

--part0_890053197_boundary--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 16 Mar 1998 09:34:31 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: standardization of non-standard forms

At 6:33 PM -0500 3/14/98, Beverly Flanigan wrote (re "so don't I"):

>Thank you, Larry and Frank, for clearing up a great mystery!  As I think
>about it, the structure seems similar to the use of reverse form in tags:
>"It's a nice day, isn't it?".  This reversal is very hard for some second
>language learners of English to master, esp. when the base sentence is
>negative and the tag positive: "He didn't do it, did he?" which is
>answered: "Yes" [=he didn't].  One of my Japanese students learned to add a
>full sentence after every such affirmative, because he knew we'd be
>confused otherwise.  "So don't I" seems to be related also to the
>rhetorical affirmative "Don't I though?" after something like "You look
>very happy."  I'm curious now about what follows a negative:  "The Colts
>don't want this one.  So do the Pats [=not want it].  Not credib
======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/15/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 13 Mar 1998 to 14 Mar 1998             98-03-15 00:00:31
There are 5 messages totalling 320 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Fwd:response to flanigan (2)
  2. Introduction
  3. standardization of non-standard forms (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 14 Mar 1998 06:44:51 EST
From:    CLAndrus <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd:response to flanigan

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--part0_889875892_boundary
Content-ID: <0_889875892[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

I tried to get directly through to you, but couldn't. Sorry for the delay in
answer.

--part0_889875892_boundary
Content-ID: <0_889875892[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.2>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

Return-Path: <>
Received: from  relay19.mx.aol.com (relay19.mail.aol.com [172.31.106.65]) by
        air10.mail.aol.com (v40.7) with SMTP; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:51:12 -0500
Received: from imo12.mx.aol.com (imo12.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.34])
          by relay19.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0)
          with ESMTP id PAA03557 for <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>;
          Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:51:12 -0500 (EST)
Received: from localhost (localhost)
          by imo12.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0)
          with internal id PAA17621;
          Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:51:11 -0500 (EST)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:51:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>
Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: oak.cat: host not found)
Message-Id: <199803132051.PAA17621[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]imo12.mx.aol.com>
To: CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com
Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

The original message was received at Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:51:05 -0500 (EST)
from root[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CAT

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
550 flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CAT... Host unknown (Name server: oak.cat: host not found)

   ----- Original message follows -----

Received: from CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com
        by imo12.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id ICBQa11850
        for <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CAT>; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:51:05 -0500 (EST)
From: CLAndrus <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>
Return-path: <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>
Message-ID: <1092a61f.35099c3b[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:51:05 EST
To: flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CAT
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Fwd: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: oak.cay: host not
found)
Content-type: multipart/mixed;
        boundary="part0_889822265_boundary"
X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 18

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--part0_889822265_boundary
Content-ID: <0_889822265[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII


--part0_889822265_boundary
Content-ID: <0_889822265[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.2>
Content-type: message/rfc822
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
Content-disposition: inline

Return-Path: <>
Received: from  relay23.mx.aol.com (relay23.mail.aol.com [172.31.106.69]) by
        air12.mail.aol.com (v40.7) with SMTP; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 06:56:16 -0500
Received: from imo24.mx.aol.com (imo24.mx.aol.com [198.81.19.152])
          by relay23.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0)
          with ESMTP id GAA20948 for <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>;
          Fri, 13 Mar 1998 06:56:16 -0500 (EST)
Received: from localhost (localhost)
          by imo24.mx.aol.com (8.8.5/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0)
          with internal id GAA29164;
          Fri, 13 Mar 1998 06:56:16 -0500 (EST)
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 06:56:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Mail Delivery Subsystem <MAILER-DAEMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>
Subject: Returned mail: Host unknown (Name server: oak.cay: host not found)
Message-Id: <199803131156.GAA29164[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]imo24.mx.aol.com>
To: CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com
Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure)
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

The original message was received at Fri, 13 Mar 1998 06:56:00 -0500 (EST)
from root[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]localhost

   ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors -----
flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CAY

   ----- Transcript of session follows -----
550 flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CAY... Host unknown (Name server: oak.cay: host not found)

   ----- Original message follows -----

Received: from CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com
        by imo24.mx.aol.com (IMOv13.ems) id NXHa023134
        for <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CAY>; Fri, 13 Mar 1998 06:56:00 -0500 (EST)
From: CLAndrus <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>
Return-path: <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>
Message-ID: <bc11b256.35091ed2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 06:56:00 EST
To: flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CAY
Mime-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: interesting stuff here
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit
X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 18

I have my own seminar company, and go to American employers to do Business
English (grammar), and Business Writing seminars. I've noticed that many
foreign-born employees like Filipinos, Nigerians, Pakistanis, Bengalis,
Indians, have a better concept of English grammar than do many of the American
college graduate attendees. It's the Americans who don't know the difference
between it's and its, whose and who's, and even there/their/they're.Even
graduates of the best graduates schools cannot write a simple correct business
letter or memo. I had a Harvard MBA in a seminar last week who confessed that
he had never understood the difference between who's and whose, so he always
just put who's.
   I have a collection of letters that people have sent me. I just got a fax
yesterday from someone at Merrill Lynch. A man applying for a $55,000 job sent
in his resume and in his covering letter he wrote: "I enclose my resume for
you to overlook." They had scribbled on the letter: "We did as he instructed.
We overlooked his resume." Other examples: We hired 2 new salesmen because we
were so underhanded. I can't advise you about this so use your own
discrepancy.
   A few weeks ago I did a full-day writing seminar at a Japanese bank here in
NYC. The manager (Japanese - whose English was superb) had a large collection
of letters written by Americans, and had circled all the errors (typos, errors
in word usage, punctuation, unclear wording) in red. "How can they send such
letters?" he asked, "This would never be done in Japan. It would bring shame
on the company."
    About my speech, I go to various business groups (Rotary, etc.) and
associations as a humorous after-dinner speaker, and go through a routine of
lawyer-talk, government babbelgab, cop talk (last night on TV there was a live
crime scene with a dead body lying on the sidewalk, and the cop referred to
the body as the "alleged" victim.) academiarhea, psychobabble, politically
correct nonsense, and the audience laughs and nods their heads because they
see the problem at their jobs. So, that's what I'm about. Carol Andrus


--part0_889822265_boundary--


--part0_889875892_boundary--

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 14 Mar 1998 10:15:37 -0500
From:    "Jeutonne P. Brewer" <jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fwd:response to flanigan

It's really not all that surprising that ESL speakers know
English better than American students. They study the English
language in detail as part of their schooling. American
students do not receive much instruction, practical application,
etc. Of course, examples like "there, their, they're" are
homonyms, so the difference is in the writing system rather
than the sound/morphology system.

Jeutonne Brewer

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 14 Mar 1998 15:11:26 +1000
From:    Ross Chambers <maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Introduction

As a new subscriber, may I introduce myself? I've strayed across from=20
the "Finnegans Wake" list (Gidday Greg D.) I'm in Sydney,=20
Australia--where many old American catchphrases and slang terms go to=20
die. However, Australia claims a rich heritage of national dialect. I=20
understand that this is somewhat "offlist", so while I would be pleased=20
to attempt to answer any queries in this area, I anticipate being a=20
wallflower at present.=20

Kind regards - Ross Chambers=20
--=20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
Ross Chambers           Sydney       Australia  maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ozemail.com.au

"L'Australia non =E8 solo agli antipodi, =E8 lontana da tutto, talora anc=
he=20
da sa stessa."

(Australia is not only  at the Antipodes, she is away from everything,=20
sometimes even from herself)

Umberto Eco

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 14 Mar 1998 18:02:04 -0500
From:    frank abate <abatef[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: standardization of non-standard forms

Larry Horn said:

>>I haven't gone through all my messages, so I don't know if someone else=

responded to Beverly on this, but the answer is yes, "So don't I" =3D 'So=
 do
I'.  It's essentially New England, as Labov said, and not all of New
England.  Someone from DARE probably knows the distribution, but it's at
least extant here in Connecticut and in Massachusetts.  I've seen it in
novels (labelled as local to some part of New England) and in one memorab=
le
headline from the early 1970's in the Boston Globe:

        THE COLTS WANT THIS ONE?  SO DON'T THE PATS

As seen here, it always follows a positive and the negation is pleonastic=
=2E
Whether there's a different construction found after negatives I don't
know.

Larry<<

*************

And as a transplant to New England from the Midwest (I moved to N.E. in
1978), I can attest to having heard this use of the negative for jocular
effect, and being struck by it.  I had not encountered it in all my years=

(27 or so) in the Midwest.

Frank Abate
OUP US Dictionaries

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 14 Mar 1998 18:33:12 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: standardization of non-standard forms

Thank you, Larry and Frank, for clearing up a great mystery!  As I think
about it, the structure seems similar to the use of reverse form in tags:
"It's a nice day, isn't it?".  This reversal is very hard for some second
language learners of English to master, esp. when the base sentence is
negative and the tag positive: "He didn't do it, did he?" which is
answered: "Yes" [=he didn't].  One of my Japanese students learned to add a
full sentence after every such affirmative, because he knew we'd be
confused otherwise.  "So don't I" seems to be related also to the
rhetorical affirmative "Don't I though?" after something like "You look
very happy."  I'm curious now about what follows a negative:  "The Colts
don't want this one.  So do the Pats [=not want it].  Not credible, of
course, but might this work?!


At 06:02 PM 3/14/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Larry Horn said:
>
>>>I haven't gone through all my messages, so I don't know if someone else=
>
>responded to Beverly on this, but the answer is yes, "So don't I" =3D 'So=
> do
>I'.  It's essentially New England, as Labov said, and not all of New
>England.  Someone from DARE probably knows the distribution, but it's at
>least extant here in Connecticut and in Massachusetts.  I've seen it in
>novels (labelled as local to some part of New England) and in one memorab=
>le
>headline from the early 1970's in the Boston Globe:
>
>        THE COLTS WANT THIS ONE?  SO DON'T THE PATS
>
>As seen here, it always follows a positive and the negation is pleonastic=
>=2E
>Whether there's a different construction found after negatives I don't
>know.
>
>Larry<<
>
>*************
>
>And as a transplant to New England from the Midwest (I moved to N.E. in
>1978), I can attest to having heard this use of the negative for jocular
>effect, and being struck by it.  I had not encountered it in all my years=
>
>(27 or so) in the Midwest.
>
>Frank Abate
>OUP US Dictionaries
>

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Mar 1998 to 14 Mar 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/14/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 12 Mar 1998 to 13 Mar 1998             98-03-14 00:02:40
There are 3 messages totalling 201 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Shaggy-Dog Story
  2. Accent Reduction Therapy - Yoruba
  3. starting to unravel...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Mar 1998 12:00:29 -0500
From:    Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Shaggy-Dog Story

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Elizabeth Gibbens wrote:

>         I am looking for the etymology of the phrase "shaggy-dog story"; it
 is
> defined in the unabridged American Heritage Dictionary as a "long,
> circuitous tale with an unlikely or surprise ending," or something close to
> that.  I'd appreciate your help.  Thank you.

The OED traces the term back to 1946, citing what appears to be a book
titled "Collected Shaggy Dog Stories" or "Collection of Shaggy Dog
Stories."  This was obscurely published, as it does not appear in the RLIN
database.  They also have a 1945 reference in square brackets to "The
logical lunacy of 'Shaggy Dog.'"  Eric Partridge published a book titled
"The Shaggy Dog Story" which probably answers all your questions about the
etymology.

I have heard a joke about a long succession of ever-higher-level contests
to pick the shaggiest dog, culminating with a final pageant at which the
judge exclaims, "This dog isn't so shaggy."  Is it possible that this was
the original shaggy dog joke?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
 Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
 Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Mar 1998 13:51:10 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Accent Reduction Therapy - Yoruba

A nice reply I thought you'd be interested in.


At 10:40 PM 3/12/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Vicki,
>
>I speak Yoruba and have spent time in West Africa.  The problem you're
>dealing with is not specific to Yoruba but rather is characteristic of West
>African English, a recognized world dialect of English.  You might check the
>Cambridge Encyclopedia of the English Language on that.  WAE comes from BE,
>but it is strongly influenced by WA phenomena.  With reference to the
>post-vocalic r problem you mention, Standard BE has no post-vocalic r, and
>therefore WAE doesn't either.  What makes your client's speech distinctive
>in this way is that most WA languages don't have schwa, the vowel BE uses in
>the words you cite.  Instead, they substitute a low central vowel that most
>of them have.  This is completely consistent, and it might be easier to
>train the people he works with to recognize this peculiarity of his dialect,
>since schwa in AmE results almost entirely from vowels being reduced in
>unstressed syllables.  Most WA languages are syllable timed, Yoruba
>included, and WAE is syllable-timed.  This means that there is no syllable
>reduction due to stress and therefore no vowel reduction.  This
>suprasegmental difference is much more frequently the source of
>comprehension problems then the use of the low central vowel where AmE has
>postvocalic r.
>
>BTW, given your profession, I'd strongly recommend Rosina Lippi-Green's
>English with an Accent (Routledge 1997) on the subject of accent
>discrimination and reduction.
>
>Herb Stahlke
>Ball State University
>
>At 14:54 98/03/12 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>My first request to this list serve.  Hope my question is appropriate for
this
>>membership!  Thank you ahead of time.
>>
>>Requesting assistance.  Working with a highly motivated individual from
>>Nigeria whose native language was Yoruba.  Medical professional with a high-
>>profile job who must communicate important information to his patients.
>>
>>Our biggest problem (surprise) is "r" particularly in the following context:
>>earth, birthday, bird, fur, etc...
>>
>>We have tried every facilitating technique I know of to assist with
successful
>>production, i.e., he has watched my mouth as a model, watched self in the
>>mirror, closed eyes to "hear sound more sharply" and tried to imitate, tape
>>recordings, tongue placement cues.  There has to be an answer out there!  I
>>have worked successfully with numerous children who have distorted
productions
>>of /r/ but this is the first adult that I have worked with on accent
>>reduction.  We are making significant progress with other sounds but this
one
>>is driving us both crazy!
>>
>>Will appreciate any and all suggestions!
>>
>>Thank you!
>>
>>Vicki
>>Speech Pathologist
>>
>>
>>
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Mar 1998 15:50:48 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: starting to unravel...

Not for the most part particularly ADSy, but...

At 10:18 AM -0500 3/12/98, Mark Mandel wrote:
>Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU> writes:
>
>>>>
>The redundant use of negative pre- and suffix in words like
>
>unboundless     unguiltless     unmatchless     unshameless
>                        undauntless     unhelpless      unmerciless
>        unshapeless
>
>--each amounting to 'Xless' or 'unXful'--was apparently quite common in the
>16th and 17th centuries, as of course is the redundant affixation of
>unthaw, unloose(n), debone, dissever, etc.
>
><<<
>
>I seem to recall reading that Whorf analyzed some of this latter set
>differently, with a prefixal meaning of something like separation or
>release rather than negation, specifically with "un-" in "unloose",
>"unravel", and perhaps that "unthaw". (Can anyone give a citation for
>this?) "Dis-", of course, carries a meaning of separation or scattering in
>many words ("disseminate", "disperse"), and separation is certainly part of
>the meaning of "dissever". And "debone" can be analyzed with a nominal root
>rather than a verbal one, using "de-"  'cause [obj.] to be free of', as in
>"debug", "delouse".
>
Whorf introduces his brief discussion of un-verbs (in "A Linguistic
Consideration of Thinking in Primitive Communities", pp. 70-71 of the
standard Carroll collection of his work, _Language, Thought, and Reality_)
as an instance of what he calls the "cryptotype", a "covert linguistic
class...a submerged, subtle, and elusive meaning, corresponding to no
actual word, yet shown by linguistic analysis to be funcitonally imporatnat
in the grammar."  Other English examples he cites are the categories of
transitive verbs blocking completive UP.  In this case, un- itself is (like
"up") a phenotype; the cryptotypes are the "transitive verbs of a covering,
enclosing, and surface-attaching meaning" to which un- may be attached for
the reversal thereof.  I actually discovered this passage after working up
my own line on predicting which actions do and which don't allow un-verb
reversals; my account developed the notion of "entropy", the idea being
that the un-verb will always be interpreted as "helping entropy along".
Hence, (un)thawing chicken returns it to the "thawed" (unfrozen) state in
which it started out, while unfreezing will do the same (and thus reverse
the non-entropic act of freezing it). Not that different, as it turns out,
from what Whorf had in mind.  And while "debone" and other "de-" verbs are
plausibly analyzed as denominals (see most recently R. A. Buck's paper
"Words that are their opposites:  Noun to verb conversion in English", Word
48 (1997): 1-14), the various "un-" prefixation processes, I maintain,
preserve the category (adjective, verb, or noun) of their base.  If this is
right, then "unpeel" (an orange) is a true redundant reversative, alongside
"unthaw", "unloose(n)", and "unravel", and the attested (if now archaic,
rare, or dialectal) "unbare", "undecipher", "unempt(y)", "unsolve",
"unrid", "unrip", "unstrip".

>I prefer this transparent analysis to one that adds a
>redundant negating "de-" to the denominal verb "bone", in part because the
>zero verbalization of "bone" makes the latter analysis rather opaque.

In fact, I argue that redundant un-verbs (or the corresponding de-verbs)
are motivated precisely because the resultant form is always transparent
("helping entropy along", or source-oriented), even when the bare verb
(denominal or not) may be opaque (goal- OR source-oriented)--"Does 'string
the beans' mean putting the string on or taking it off? Better be on the
safe side and 'unstring' them".

Larry

Obdialect:
Our supermarket, avoiding the perils of "depitted prunes", sells something
it labels "Prunes No Pits."  And then there's Amelia Bedelia*, literalist
extraordinaire of fictional housekeepers, she who dresses the chicken in
overalls, trims the fat with lace and bits of ribbon, and ices the fish
with chocolate frosting.  Reading an instruction to dust the furniture, she
exclaims, 'Did you ever hear tell of such a silly thing?  At my house we
UNdust the furniture.  But each to his own way'--as she happily proceeds
with her dusting, with the help of some fragrant talc she discovers in the
bathroom.

*Parish, Peggy (1963)  Amelia Bedelia.  New York:  Harper & Row.

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Mar 1998 to 13 Mar 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/13/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 11 Mar 1998 to 12 Mar 1998             98-03-13 00:00:12
This message contains more text than QuickMail can display. The entire message
 has been enclosed as a file.

There are 25 messages totalling 1188 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Ring around the rosie(s) (6)
  2. wife-beaters
  3. Dialect geography (WAS: GREASY/GREAZY)
  4. Accent Reduction Therapy - Yoruba (4)
  5. standardization of non-standard forms (2)
  6. "A prosecutor could indict a ham sandwich"
  7. Dialect Discrimination
  8. More about ham sandwiches
  9. Ole Ole Olson, etc (2)
 10. Looking for Informants (2)
 11. almost-malaprops
 12. your dad
 13. interesting stuff here
 14. On caring less

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Mar 1998 21:53:11 -0800
From:    Devon Coles <dcoles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HORIZON.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Ring around the rosie(s)

Beverly Flannigan wrote:

>
>And while we're on games (a new thread?), does anybody recall "Antie I
>over" (sp?)?  We played it (throwing a ball over the house and then running
>around to tag people), but I have no idea where the phrase came from.  (I
>think I looked it up in DARE once but can't recall whether the words were
>explained or not.)  Ditto with "Allie allie in/oxen free"--why these words?
>
In Northern Ontario, mid 1950s, we played "eevie, ivy over" throwing a ball
over the house, etc. Also, whoever was "it" in Hide-and-Go-Seek (not hide
and seek as I have heard often in the years since) would call "allie allie
out's and free!"  I, too, have no idea where these phrases came from. Just
swell memories of summer evenings that lasted until 10 o'clock or so, and
the long gone joy of wooden screen doors."Here, you kids - don't slam that
<slam!> door!"
Cheers,
Devon Coles
dcoles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]horizon.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Mar 1998 22:48:11 -0800
From:    Judi Sanders <jasanders[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: wife-beaters

Just today I had a student use this term in a speech here in (for-the-moment)
 sunny southern
California.

Judi Sanders

REBECCA GREENHILL wrote:
>
> I too have heard white sleeveless undershirts called "wife beaters" in
> Central and Eastern Kentucky.

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr. Judi Sanders
Professor, Communication
Cal. State Polytechnic U., Pomona
The Web:  http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders
The College Slang Page:  http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders/slang
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Mar 1998 01:53:25 -0600
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dialect geography (WAS: GREASY/GREAZY)

frank abate wrote:
>
> Carol Andrus said:
>
> I got a really interesting film about
> American language, I think it was from the FBI. It said: that a person who
> had been raised for the first 10-12 years in one place in the US could be
> identified within 150 miles of that place of origin by his/her speech.
> There was a list of words to read. It gave examples of: greasy/greazy;
> marry/Mary/merry; adult/adult; those are a few I remember. I put this in
> because of greasy/greazy, which triggered my memory.<<
>
> ***************
>
> I'd be interested to know if the FBI (if it was them) still uses dailect
> geography as evidence, and whether this stemmed from Labov's work.
>
> Anyone know?  Is there a list of "shibboleth" words that still works in
> determining place of origin?
>
> Frank Abate
> OUP US Dictionaries


The work came from Henry Lee Smith, not Labov.  It's an impressive
stunt, but really just a simple exercise in dialect geography.  There's
no reason to think it couldn't be done today using just about the same
distinctive sets of words Smith used, perhaps with minor modifications.

Back in the 1940s, Smith had a radio program called "Where are you
from?"  On the program, he would hand a written list of twenty sets of
words to a guest, who would be asked to read them.  Smith would then try
to determine where the guest had learned to speak English.  (Notice that
I said "determine", not "guess".  He was using truly diagnostic items
based on good dialect geopgraphy.) In puzzling cases he used an item or
two from a short list of supplementary words, as I recall.

Most of the time, Smith would come within 50 (not 150) miles of the
place where Englilsh was learned.  For most cities east of the
Mississippi, he was able to zero in on specific neighborhoods.
Sometimes he would get stuck and have to specify a line on a map
(example: a line from Indianapolis, Indiana to Columbus, Ohio) and say
that the guest came from within 50 miles of that line.  (The line,
obviously, would be an isogloss line marking a major dialect boundary.
My example was not chosen casually: there's a dialect boundary somewhere
close to that general line.)

Smith had his greatest success with those who had lived in one U.S.
locality for the first dozen years of life or so, but he sometimes was
able to point to origins for people who had moved from their original
dialect area to another.

"Where are you from?" moved to TV, in the early years when programs were
broadcast live to local audiences only. In a process called "Kinescope",
the local broadcast would be recorded off air on movie film.  The
duplicated films were then moved physically to stations in other parts
of the country for later broadcast.  For all I know, some of those
Kinescopes may still be archived somewhere.  Smith also made a series of
16 mm. educational films on linguistics and dialect geography.  (In the
films, he looked and sounded amazingly like Jack Lemmon.)  I'll bet that
the "FBI" film was either out of Smith's film series or an old Kinescope
of his program.

I don't remember much of Smith's list, either, but I agree with Carol
Andrus that it
included greasy/greazy and marry/merry/Mary.  (I'm not sure about
"adult".)  Another set included cot/caught (with "bought" in there
somewhere); I remember "dog" as a stray item from the list, too.

To illustrate the general principles, look at the "marry/merry/Mary"
set.  West of the Appalachian mountains those are homonyms.  To the
east, the distribution gets complex; at its most differentiated, the set
is consistently pronounced as three phonemically distinct words.  Those
who have two distinct pronunciations usually distinguish Mary from the
other two.  I've forgotten the exact distribution pattern, but the words
associated with the three spellings neatly subdivide the territory from
Pennsylvania up through Maine into a diagnostsic checkerboard.

I met Haxey Smith around 1957, or perhaps a little later.  "Where are
you from?" was but a memory by then, but he still carried a card in his
wallet containing his test sets.  At a cocktail party (associated with a
meeting of LSA), he was prevailed upon to give a demonstration -- which
he did, beautifully, until he handed me the card.
I was strictly honest in my reading; he concluded that I spoke
Bloomfield's SAM
(Standard Average Midwestern English) but could not zero in much closer
than that.
That was no surprise: from about age 8 through when I was 15, I had a
series of voice coaches, singing teachers, and "elocution" teachers
working on converting me from normal human speech to Formal Platform
English and/or Singers' Standard.  They pretty much succeeded, and I
never fully recovered.

That's a terrible affliction.  My wife says I sound like I'm delivering
a lecture when I think I'm making love talk in bed.  (Luckily, she
thinks that's endearing.
Some of the time.)

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Mar 1998 02:13:23 -0600
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ring around the rosie(s)

Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> And while we're on games (a new thread?), does anybody recall "Antie I
> over" (sp?)?  We played it (throwing a ball over the house and then running
> around to tag people), but I have no idea where the phrase came from.  (I
> think I looked it up in DARE once but can't recall whether the words were
> explained or not.)  Ditto with "Allie allie in/oxen free"--why these words?

Maybe that has something to do with phonetic variation around what we
said when I was growing up -- "outs in free", i.e., those who had not
yet been caught in the game of hide and seek could come back to the
starting point without penalty.  The full phrase in translation might
have been "All the outs in free".

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:51:53 +0000
From:    Aaron Drews <aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.ED.AC.UK>
Subject: Re: Accent Reduction Therapy - Yoruba

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, TERRY IRONS wrote:
}
}More theoretically, in the context of some things I have been exploring
}with students recently and since I was recently asked to develop and
}direct an intensive ESL program at our school, to what extent is accent
}reduction possible in adult second language learners?  Research I have
}surveyed suggests that adult second language learners "hear" their second
}language production filtered through the phonology of their first language.
}Any thoughts here?

        Is that last question rhetorical?
        I haven't come across anything that second language learners hear
the L2 through a filter.  There is some sparse research on production of a
second phonology.  I can't remember the authors, but the proceedings were
either "New Sounds 90" or "New Sounds 92", and an article mentioned that
adults can acquire the tone and intonation patterns of a second language.
        On the segmental level, things get a little more hairy.  J.E.
Flege has done a lot of research on acquiring "new" and "similar" sounds,
but that's strictly a phonetic analysis and I personally think phonology
plays quite a role.
        There's an entire book called "Interlanguage Phonology" directly
and indirectly dealing with accent reduction in foreign language learners.
Many of the articles therein talk about this "filter" that Terry is asking
about.
        In my own work, I'm finding that second dialect learners use and
manipulate as much of their first phonology as possible.  Adults, and
children after they've manipulated as much as they can adopt a
"close enough" attitude (generally hypercorrection).  In older terms,
this was called interference.  This same phenomenon seems to happen to
second language learners as well, but I don't want to hazard any further
guesses.
        Aaron

===========================================================================
Aaron E. Drews                              http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron
Ph.D. Candidate                                         +44 (0)131 650-3485
The University of Edinburgh                        fax: +44 (0)131 650-3962
Departments of Linguistics and English Language

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:44:52 -0500
From:    Jose Adolfo Segura <segura[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CAM.ORG>
Subject: Re: Accent Reduction Therapy - Yoruba

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, VicJBurke wrote:

> My first request to this list serve.  Hope my question is appropriate for
 this
> membership!  Thank you ahead of time.
>
> Requesting assistance.  Working with a highly motivated individual from
> Nigeria whose native language was Yoruba.  Medical professional with a high-
> profile job who must communicate important information to his patients.
>
> Our biggest problem (surprise) is "r" particularly in the following context:
> earth, birthday, bird, fur, etc...

> Will appreciate any and all suggestions!
>
Hi Vichi,
I am not linguistic but etnopsychiatrist, so I need more details about
cultural background, migration trayectory and his actual position and
attitude face to his country of adoption . In others words , I need the
"context" in which sign or symptom is manifested.
Curiously the words you note are symbolically very meaningful :
the Earth  [of origins]
Birthday (!)
Bird ,...[ Liberty too (?)]
Fur , .....[simbolically meaningful , in terms of "enveloppe", ]

I could associate a lot but if you prefer you could give me details on
private basis. I do not know particularly Yoruba culture, but it would a
very good occasion for me to study a little.
Remember, that any where we go we travel with our "cultural matrix"
no matter which the social-class background is. There are a lot of
interesting theoretical and clinical experience about that,

salutations,

Jose Adolfo Segura md

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Mar 1998 07:46:43 -0500
From:    Susan-Marie Harrington <sharrin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IUPUI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ring around the rosie(s)

My growing-up neighborhood had yet another v ariant--we said "allie allie
olsen free" (and never stopped to wonder what it meant, I"m sure).

> Beverly Flanigan wrote:
> > explained or not.)  Ditto with "Allie allie in/oxen free"--why these words?

And Mike Salovesh said:>
> said when I was growing up -- "outs in free", i.e., those who had not

Susanmarie Harrington                                sharrin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]iupui.edu
Indiana University-Purdue University,Indianapolis    (317) 278-1153
Dept. of English, 425 University Boulevard           fax: (317) 274-2347
Indianapolis IN 46202-5140

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Mar 1998 08:39:13 -0500
From:    "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ring around the rosie(s)

AHA!

This comes closer to the Louisville variant ("Ole Ole Olsen free"), in
which we apparently envisioned the freeing of an imprisoned sterotypical
scandinavian, although, as suggested, we were not junior etymologizers.

This "come in free" from hide-and-seek cry had nothing to do with flinging
a ball over a house or shed (which was "Anne-Annie over"; we were big on
names apparently).

dInIs

>My growing-up neighborhood had yet another v ariant--we said "allie allie
>olsen free" (and never stopped to wonder what it meant, I"m sure).
>
>> Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>> > explained or not.)  Ditto with "Allie allie in/oxen free"--why these
 words?
>
>And Mike Salovesh said:>
>> said when I was growing up -- "outs in free", i.e., those who had not
>
>Susanmarie Harrington                                sharrin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]iupui.edu
>Indiana University-Purdue University,Indianapolis    (317) 278-1153
>Dept. of English, 425 University Boulevard           fax: (317) 274-2347
>Indianapolis IN 46202-5140

Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:00:20 EST
From:    AAllan <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Accent Reduction Therapy - Yoruba

The absence of postvocalic "r" is often perceived as a prestige feature,
especially in the context of what otherwise might sound like a British accent.
Maybe the Yoruban should leave it alone. - Allan

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:18:13 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: standardization of non-standard forms

Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU> writes:

>>>
The redundant use of negative pre- and suffix in words like

unboundless     unguiltless     unmatchless     unshameless
                        undauntless     unhelpless      unmerciless
        unshapeless

--each amounting to 'Xless' or 'unXful'--was apparently quite common in the
16th and 17th centuries, as of course is the redundant affixation of
unthaw, unloose(n), debone, dissever, etc.

<<<

I seem to recall reading that Whorf analyzed some of this latter set
differently, with a prefixal meaning of something like separation or
release rather than negation, specifically with "un-" in "unloose",
"unravel", and perhaps that "unthaw". (Can anyone give a citation for
this?) "Dis-", of course, carries a meaning of separation or scattering in
many words ("disseminate", "disperse"), and separation is certainly part of
the meaning of "dissever". And "debone" can be analyzed with a nominal root
rather than a verbal one, using "de-"  'cause [obj.] to be free of', as in
"debug", "delouse". I prefer this transparent analysis to one that adds a
redundant negating "de-" to the denominal verb "bone", in part because the
zero verbalization of "bone" makes the latter analysis rather opaque.

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:28:07 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: "A prosecutor could indict a ham sandwich"

Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU> writes:
>>>>

Must be something about ham sandwiches.  The locus classicus of "deferred
reference",from Nunberg's 1978 dissertation, is "The ham sandwich (at table
5) wants an order of fries."  So ham sandwiches can be indicted by grand
juries, sanctioned to box, and served at diners; possibly all three
simultaneously.

<<<<

And that ain't all! There's a theorem in geometry that has something to do
with (in plane geometry) a line passing through three areas, or (in solid
geometry) a plane cutting through three volumes, and so on in higher
dimensionalities. IIRC, it has a formal name, but is commonly referred to
as the Generalized Ham-Sandwich Theorem. (Ref., from memory: one of Martin
Gardner's "Mathematical Games" columns for _Scientific American_, in one of
the volumes of collections of same; dust jacket is black&white + blue.) Is
the ham sandwich THE archetypal sandwich in American speech?

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Mar 1998 10:22:06 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: Dialect Discrimination

I received this from the EDIE list and think it might be of interest here, too.
 Please pardon me if you also subscribe  to EDIE-L and have already seen this.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]drjp.com

Begin quote:



I thought this might be of interest to anyone who's not heard about the
case already: it's a report by Gavin Innes in 'The Scotsman' newspaper
(3rd March 1998) entitled "Police Dog 'could not understand Scots accent':
Alsatian blamed for PC's course failure, tribunal told."

The case has been discussed, somewhat flippantly, on BBC radio news, and
was brought up as a joke topic on the BBC Radio 4 'News Quiz' comedy
programme of Saturday 7th March 1998, to the great amusement of the
studio audience. As one would expect, given the rather uneasy
relationship between the Scots and the English, the potentially serious
implications of a case like this are defused by trivialising the issue.

Try replacing 'Scottish/Glaswegian' with 'Pakistani', 'Yiddish' or
'Jamaican' in the passage below, however, and it's clear how far positive
race relations practice on the part of the Met and other forces UK-wide has
taken us. That is, had McPherson been a member of one of the 'recognised'
minority groups - south Asians, Jews, Afro-Caribbeans, etc. - the case
could never have come to court in the form we read about below.

What disturbs me is the fact that a barrister is happy to accept a
situation in which having a Glaswegian accent renders one unsuitable even
for communication with dogs (we can only assume that this implies that
human beings are liable to have similar problems with this accent). What
exempts Scots from the kind of tolerant and enlightened treatment we expect
in c
======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/12/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 10 Mar 1998 to 11 Mar 1998             98-03-12 00:00:25
This message contains more text than QuickMail can display. The entire message
 has been enclosed as a file.

There are 35 messages totalling 1398 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Q: "free indirect discourse"
  2. standardization of non-standard forms (12)
  3. "spittin' image"
  4. GREASY/GREAZY
  5. standardization of nonstandard forms (2)
  6. call for papers - ADS at SCMLA
  7. "Take Me/Us to Your Leader"
  8. Shaggy-Dog Story
  9. "A prosecutor could indict a ham sandwich" (6)
 10. Ring around the rosie(s) (5)
 11. interesting stuff here
 12. wife-beaters
 13. Accent Reduction Therapy - Yoruba (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Mar 1998 00:28:31 -0500
From:    Margaret Ronkin <ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU>
Subject: Q: "free indirect discourse"

Can anyone, perhaps in an English department which teaches stylistics
and literature, steer me toward a source of expertise or a good current
bibliography on "free indirect discourse"? I first encountered uses of
this device in the works of Z. N. Hurston and I remain particularly
interested in its uses by 20th-century American writers. Many thanks.

- Maggie Ronkin
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 10 Mar 1998 23:09:53 -0800
From:    Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: standardization of non-standard forms

>I also understand that "happy as a
>clam" (a popular, if obscure, simile at least in the northeast U.S.)
>derives from the earlier "happy as a clam at high tide".

Thank you.  I've always wondered what that meant, and how happy was a clam
anyway.

But, re malapropisms, my old neighbor in Brooklyn used to say things like:

She went through revolting doors,
Described indiscrete lighting,
Prayed at a Synagod,
Ate Fig Noodles,
Pointed out the flowers on her lapel by saying how she had gotten this
lovely massage,
Complained about her daughter ignoring her and "just shredding her shoulders."


Rima

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:38:45 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: "spittin' image"

At 7:24 PM -0500 3/10/98, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>   Aboout 10 years ago Laurence Urdang's _Verbatim_  published an item on
>"spittin' image." Can anyone locate it?
>
>   As I remember, the derivation is connected there with spitting in its
>literal sense.
>
>--Gerald Cohen

I would of course be very interested in this; unfortunately, Yale doesn't
carry Verbatim, so I'm reduced to echoing the question:  does anyone have
this around?

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Mar 1998 08:40:31 -0500
From:    Robert Ness <ness[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU>
Subject: Re: standardization of non-standard forms

I've recorded the following suspected malapropisms from my students:
faulter (falter); take for granite, vice versal, boiling (buillon) cube,
expertriate, a doggy-dog world, to passify (too soothe into passivity), to
place one on a pedistool, to route out sin, Nato is out of sink with
Europe, Emerson believes in a happy median, blood was trinkling from the
cut, and my favorite: he was in the field plowing his burro (i.e., he
doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground). On Tue, 10 Mar 1998,
Devon Coles wrote:

> Peter McGraw wrote regarding malapropisms:
>
>
>
> >(My own favorite example is a woman who was denouncing some group of
> >people or other and concluded by telling me, "I just think they ought
> >to be Osterized!"  Unfortunately, to my knowledge it never caught
> >on, even regionally.)
> >
> My personal favourite is the example of a receptionist in my office who
> reported a great night on the town during which her boyfriend "drank himself
> into Bolivia."
> Cheers,
> Devon Coles
> dcoles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]horizon.bc.ca
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:08:29 -0500
From:    frank abate <abatef[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: GREASY/GREAZY

Carol Andrus said:

>>This may be of interest. I'm not a prof, but am interested in language.=

Back
in the 60's I taught Spanish/French/Latin, and, remember how we had films=

to
show to the class every now and then. I got a really interesting film abo=
ut
American language, I think it was from the FBI. It said: that a person wh=
o
had
been raised for the first 10-12 years in one place in the US could be
identified within 150 miles of that place of origin by his/her speech.
There
was a list of words to read. It gave examples of: greasy/greazy;
marry/Mary/merry; adult/adult; those are a few I remember. I put this in
because of greasy/greazy, which triggered my memory.<<

***************

I'd be interested to know if the FBI (if it was them) still uses dailect
geography as evidence, and whether this stemmed from Labov's work.

Anyone know?  Is there a list of "shibboleth" words that still works in
determining place of origin?

Frank Abate
OUP US Dictionaries

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:08:22 -0500
From:    frank abate <abatef[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: standardization of nonstandard forms

Message text written by INTERNET:dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp

>One of my father's pet peeves is [kalvari] for cavalry.  This is a
lexical thing (or what Chambers and Trudgill would group as a
"pronunciation" thing; just because people say this doesn't mean they
say [relveri] for revelry).  It seems to be common.<

****************
Happened to hear the REVERSE of this pronunciation malapropism this past
weekend (Mar 7, 1998) in Exeter, NH.  It was said to me by a local
resident, apparently from the area, by the sound of his speech.  He was
giving me directions to Portsmouth, NH (about 10 miles away), and mention=
ed
a "Calvary Cemetery" as a landmark.  But he said "cavalry".  "Calvary
Cemetery" is indeed the name of the place he used as a landmark.

**************
btw, the above is a good example of one of the things I love about the AD=
S
list (though I do discard many things that come in that are not of intere=
st
to me).  I know of no other vehicle in which a random tidbit of linguisti=
c
information, heard in the normal course of life, could be made potentiall=
y
useful to someone in a professional community.  I personally have no
immediate use for this malapropism in my work, nor do I foresee a use.  B=
ut
someone "out there" seems to have an interest in this, and here is some
evidence.

One might say that "in the old days" this sort of thing would be sent to
Notes & Queries, which served the same purpose.  That is true in part.  B=
ut
we, each of us, hear and read so many things, and it's my contention that=

though every day some bits of what we encounter strike us as new or
strange, we don't pause to make note of them all, and soon we forget them=

(or some of them) and move on.  Nothing may come along later to remind us=
=2E =

I'm happy, in this case, to be able to pass along something I paused over=
,
that seems relevant to a thread.

Sorry to trouble you with personal reactions, but I had not seen this sai=
d.
 I'm excited by the potential for scholarship in this new medium.

Frank Abate
OUP US Dictionaries

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:24:27 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: standardization of non-standard forms

At 8:40 AM -0500 3/11/98, Robert Ness wrote:
>I've recorded the following suspected malapropisms from my students:
>faulter (falter); take for granite, vice versal, boiling (buillon) cube,
>expertriate, a doggy-dog world, to passify (too soothe into passivity), to
>place one on a pedistool, to route out sin, Nato is out of sink with
>Europe, Emerson believes in a happy median, blood was trinkling from the
>cut, and my favorite: he was in the field plowing his burro (i.e., he
>doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground). On Tue, 10 Mar 1998,
>Devon Coles wrote:
>
>> Peter McGraw wrote regarding malapropisms:
>>
>>
>>
>> >(My own favorite example is a woman who was denouncing some group of
>> >people or other and concluded by telling me, "I just think they ought
>> >to be Osterized!"  Unfortunately, to my knowledge it never caught
>> >on, even regionally.)
>> >
>> My personal favourite is the example of a receptionist in my office who
>> reported a great night on the town during which her boyfriend "drank himself
>> into Bolivia."
>> Cheers,
>> Devon Coles
>> dcoles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]horizon.bc.ca
>>

These are all nice malapropisms, granted, although I'd also call them nonce
reanalyses and/or folk etymologies, since they all involve an invention of
transparency at some level.  Many of them are widely attested (the
"doggy-dog world", "passify" (which could be a blend of pacify and
passivize), perhaps "taking for granite" (and don't forget "it takes two to
tangle"), but I'd still be wary of seeing any standardization in these
cases.  That is, I don't think there's really a dialect group in which
these versions are learned as such (as opposed to being reinvented as nonce
forms within a given idiolect).  Some we've discussed earlier under the
heading of mondegreens or pullet surprises are more plausible candidates
for this standardization: "duck tape", "chaise lounge", perhaps "tenure
tract" or "no holes barred".
        I was just reminded of another expression that has now shifted
along the lines of the (non-malapropism?) examples I was citing yesterday
(proof in the pudding, wherefore art thou): the reanalysis of "beg the
question".  ESPN's baseball analyst Peter Gammons last night was discussing
the Toronto Blue Jays' prospects for this year, with strong pitching and
uncertain hitting, and said that this "begs the question of which is more
important, pitching or hitting"--i.e., it RAISES that question.  OK, not a
malapropism, but this clearly represents a standardization of a form not
standardly used with this meaning.


Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Mar 1998 09:32:08 -0600
From:    Cukor-Avila Patricia <pcavila[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNT.EDU>
Subject: call for papers - ADS at SCMLA

DON'T BE LEFT OUT!!

Come join ADS in beautiful New Orleans!!

FINAL CALL FOR PAPERS

The South Central meeting of the American Dialect Society in association
with SCMLA will meet in New Orleans, LA

November 12-14, 1998

Colleagues are invited to submit abstracts for the annual South Central
meeting of the American Dialect Society.  The session theme is open, so
abstracts on any topic in linguistics from faculty and students are
welcome.

Please submit a one-page abstract by March 15, 1998 to:

Patricia Cukor-Avila
Department of English
Univ. of North Texas
Denton, TX  76203

Send fax submissions to:  (940) 565-4355

Send email submissions as either a WP or WORD 6.0 file to:
pcavila[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Mar 1998 11:34:36 -0600
From:    William J Stone <W-Stone[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: standardization of non-standard forms

On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Larry Horn wrote:>
> These are all nice malapropisms, granted, although I'd also call them nonce
> reanalyses and/or folk etymologies, since they all involve an invention of
> transparency at some level.  Many of them are widely attested (the
> "doggy-dog world", "passify" (which could be a blend of pacify and
> passivize), perhaps "taking for granite" (and don't forget "it takes two to
> tangle"), but I'd still be wary of seeing any standardization in these
> cases.  That is, I don't think there's really a dialect group in which
> these versions are learned as such (as opposed to being reinvented as nonce
> forms within a given idiolect).  Some we've discussed earlier under the
> heading of mondegreens or pullet surprises are more plausible candidates
> for this standardization: "duck tape", "chaise lounge", perhaps "tenure
> tract" or "no holes barred".
>         I was just reminded of another expression that has now shifted
> along the lines of the (non-malapropism?) examples I was citing yesterday
> (proof in the pudding, wherefore art thou): the reanalysis of "beg the
> question".  ESPN's baseball analyst Peter Gammons last night was discussing
> the Toronto Blue Jays' prospects for this year, with strong pitching and
> uncertain hitting, and said that this "begs the question of which is more
> important, pitching or hitting"--i.e., it RAISES that question.  OK, not a
> malapropism, but this clearly represents a standardization of a form not
> standardly used with this meaning.
>
>
> Larry
>
Larry Horn distinguishes the standardized malapropism from the nonce form.
This brought to mind a difference in nursery rhymes between Britain and
the U.S.  I was raised in Britain with "A ring, a ring of roses, a pocket
full of posies" with its reference to the signs of the plague.(Who but the
British would make a nursey rhyme out of a fatal disease?) A few years ago
I found my American wife teaching our first child "A ring around the
rosie".  I assumed that she had merely misheard the rhyme and was giving a
nonce malapropism. Having lived here for a few years now, I find that this
is the way that the rhyme goes here.  While not in the same category as
other malapropisms, it does appear related to me.  Incidentally, what does
"A ring around the rosie" mean?

W.J.Stone
Linguistics Department
N.E.Illinois University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Mar 1998 12:37:28 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: "Take Me/Us to Your Leader"

Does anyone know the origin of this catchphrase, as spoken by Little Green Men
 coming out of a flying saucer (or
equivalent aliens)?

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:07:28 -0500
From:    Elizabeth Gibbens <gibbens[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EROLS.COM>
Subject: Shaggy-Dog Story

Dear All,

        I am looking for the etymology of the phrase "shaggy-dog story"; it is
defined in the unabridged American Heritage Dictionary as a "long,
circuitous tale with an unlikely or surprise ending," or something close to
that.  I'd appreciate your help.  Thank you.

                                                        Elizabeth Gibbens

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Mar 1998 13:25:43 -0500
From:    frank abate <abatef[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: standardization of non-standard forms

Another pretty common misunderstanding is the use of "jive" where "jibe" =
is
technically correct, as in:

        Their view on the issue and mine do not jibe.

I hear "jive" for "jibe" in such cases, more often "jive", I think. =

Influence of once very frequent slang "jive", I suppose, and the relative=

unfamiliarity and lower frequency of "jibe".

Frank Abate
OUP US Dictionaries

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Mar 1998 10:34:53 -0800
From:    "A. Vine" <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: standardization of non-standard forms

I came across the following while reading a business plan:

"... his experience runs the gambit from blah to blah ..."

(OK, it doesn't actually have "blah to blah" in it!)

Andrea

> At 8:40 AM -0500 3/11/98, Robert Ness wrote:
> >I've recorded the following suspected malapropisms from my students:
> >faulter (falter); take for granite, vice versal, boiling (buillon) cube,
> >expertriate, a doggy-dog world, to passify (too soothe into passivity), to
> >place one on a pedistool, to route out sin, Nato is out of sink with
> >Europe, Emerson believes in a happy median, blood was trinkling from the
> >cut, and my favorite: he was in the field plowing his burro (i.e., he
> >doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground). On Tue, 10 Mar 1998,
> >Devon Coles wrote:
> >
> >> Peter McGraw wrote regarding malapropisms:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >(My own favorite example is a woman who was denouncing some group of
> >> >people or other and concluded by telling me, "I just think they ought
> >> >to be Osterized!"  Unfortunately, to my knowledge it never caught
> >> >on, even regionally.)
> >> >
> >> My personal favourite is the example of a receptionist in my office who
> >> reported a great night on the town during which her boyfriend "drank
 himself
> >> into Bolivia."
> >> Cheers,
> >> Devon Coles
> >> dcoles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]horizon.bc.ca
> >>

--
--------------------
bite the wax tadpole

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:04:52 -0500
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: standardization of non-standard forms

At 01:25 PM 3/11/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Another pretty common misunderstanding is the use of "jive" where "jibe" =
>is
>technically correct, as in:
>
>        Their view on the issue and mine do not jibe....
>
>Frank Abate
>OUP US Dictionaries
>

Yes, this one is pretty common.

I was staying off this thread because my sense was that the original
enquirer was looking for nonstandardisms that had become standardized in
some regional dialect, and I wasn't sure about regional distributions. If
regional distributions are not an issue, don't forget (among many others):

"I could care less" (where what is meant is "I couldn't care less")

"irregardless" (my college roommate used it on a history exam, his major
field, and got called on it by the grader)

Perhaps these kinds of examples are idiolectic, and created independently by
various individual speakers, as was discussed earlier on this thread. But
they are so common that some people must pick them up from other people,
which pushes them beyond the realm of idiolect. I recall that my roommate
did some research on "irregardless" after being called on it, and several
dictionaries mentioned the word but called it nonstandard and illogical, or
else humorous. If dictionaries feel compelled to mention a usage, it would
seem to have transcended the stage of independent idiolectic innovation.

Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:27:58 EST
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: "A prosecutor could indict a ham sandwich"

ANTIGUA, GUATEMALA
     Greetings from lovely Antigua, Guatemala!  Home of an active volcano...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
A PROSECUTOR COULD INDICT A HAM SANDWICH

     I don't have Nexis in front of me, but I've heard that "a prosecutor
could indict a ham sandwich." I haven't seen in recorded.
     How often is "ham sandwich" used?
     Has Ken Starr ever tried turkey club?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Mar 1998 14:39:28 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ring around the rosie(s)

I'm trying to recall the rhyme from the dim and distant past (a malapropism
there?):  I assume the rosie is the person in the middle of a circle,
around whom others ring.  But granted this, why did the British rhyme use
rosies and posies in the first place?  I'm aware that "ashes to ashes, all
fall down" referred to the plague, but I don't get the allusion to flowers,
unless they're placed on the graves of the plague-dead?  What a macabre game!

And while we're on games (a new thread?), does anybody recall "Antie I
over" (sp?)?  We played it (throwing a ball over the house and then running
around to tag people), but I have no idea where the phrase came from.  (I
think I looked it up in DARE once but can't recall whether the words were
explained or not.)  Ditto with "Allie allie in/oxen free"--why these words?

At 11:34 AM 3/11/98 -0600, you wrote:
>On Wed, 11 Mar 1998, Larry Horn wrote:>
>> These are all nice malapropisms, granted, although I'd also call them nonce
>> reanalyses and/or folk etymologies, since they all involve an invention of
>> transparency at some level.  Many of them are widely attested (the
>> "doggy-
======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/10/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 8 Mar 1998 to 9 Mar 1998               98-03-10 00:00:13
This message contains more text than QuickMail can display. The entire message
 has been enclosed as a file.

There are 19 messages totalling 605 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Spittin' Image (2)
  2. connecticut folk (revisited) (2)
  3. Dictionaries on CD-ROM
  4. Distnc. btw. "crick"&"creek", GREASY/GREAZY
  5. Re[2]: Spittin' Image (3)
  6. wife-beaters (5)
  7. GREASY/GREAZY (2)
  8. butt (2)
  9. standardization of non-standard forms

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 8 Mar 1998 23:40:45 -0600
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Spittin' Image

FWIW.  The term 'spittin' image / 'spitten image' has been discussed once,
maybe twice, on ads-l.  The 75th-Anniverary edition of TIME Magazine has
this interesting letter:

Oct. 11, 1927
The records on "spittin' image" should certainly be kept straight. I don't
think that the expression has anything to do with saliva. It originated, I
believe, among the darkies of the South and the correct phrasing--without
dialect--is "spirit and image." It was originally used in speaking of some
person whose father had passed on--and the colored folks would say--"the
very spi't an' image of his daddy."
Joel Chandler Harris Jr.
Atlanta, Ga.

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Mar 1998 00:01:17 -0600
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: connecticut folk (revisited)

Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote:
>
> At 07:48 PM 3/8/98 -0500, Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
 wrote:
> >Not to sound too naive, but why Nutmeggers???
> >
>
> Because the CT state nickname is "the Nutmeg State." (Cf. Ohio as "the
> Buckeye State.")
>
> Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

Historically minded folks may recall the source of that label.

People from Connecticut (gee, I wonder if there's a single word for
that?) were called "nutmeggers" because some of them were heavily
involved in the spice trade.

Calling them nutmeggers was an insulting reference to the sly ways of
Connecticut traders.  They had the reputation of spending their time
carving imitation nutmeg out of scrub trees -- then building fortunes by
mixing their worthless carvings into shipments of genuine nutmeg.

A "nutmegger" was a seller of adulterated merchandise.

So when you say "Nutmeg State", you'd better smile, pardner.

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Mar 1998 10:21:48 +0000
From:    Aaron Drews <aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.ED.AC.UK>
Subject: Dictionaries on CD-ROM

        Sorry this is so late.  But I've heard that the Scottish National
Dictionary is going to be put on CD-ROM shortly with etymologies et al.
(as soon as the bugs are worked out).  That might not be too helpful for
most of American English, but for the midlands it might come in handy.
        Hope this helps,
                Aaron

===========================================================================
Aaron E. Drews                              http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron
Ph.D. Candidate                                         +44 (0)131 650-3485
The University of Edinburgh                        fax: +44 (0)131 650-3962
Departments of Linguistics and English Language

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Mar 1998 08:55:40 -0500
From:    "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Distnc. btw. "crick"&"creek", GREASY/GREAZY

Of course the noun is always 'grease' and the verb 'greaze' (no matter how
'greazy/greasy' the 'greazed' object turns out.

I am sympathetic, however, to the likelihood that the 'greasy/greazy'
distinction in my own speech is late-learned, and, I thought, perhaps even
idiosyncratic, but now I have heard it from others, so I am inclined to
believe its origins might have been in some more general form of
associative hypercorrection ('things in the North are "fancier" or some
such crap').

dInIs (who would be nonplussed to find that he had been trapped by the
overtly prestigious)

>My graduate student from SW Virginia (Covington) would have to agree with
>Ron: she says really oily hands (from car grease, for ex.) are 'greazy,'
>while messy food plates, french fries, etc. are just 'greasy.'  She adds,
>though, that the distinction may be based in type of grease (car vs. food)
>rather than degree.  One would also 'greaze' the car, but with 'grease'--a
>distinction no So/SoMid speaker disputes, am I right?
>
>
>At 07:52 PM 3/5/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>Ron of Iowa wrote:
>>
>>>One thing that surprises me here is that folks say that GREASY and GREAZY
>are
>>>semantically distinct to the extent that GREAZY things are GREASY, but
>>>intensely so, Is this true elsewhere in the South?
>>
>>Nonsense! (Unless, of course, one is talking about the amount of snake oil
>>one has lubricated one's words with.)
>>
>>Bethany of SE Texas
>>

Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:53:25 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spittin' Image

At 11:40 PM -0600 3/8/98, Donald M. Lance wrote:
>FWIW.  The term 'spittin' image / 'spitten image' has been discussed once,
>maybe twice, on ads-l.  The 75th-Anniverary edition of TIME Magazine has
>this interesting letter:
>
>Oct. 11, 1927
>The records on "spittin' image" should certainly be kept straight. I don't
>think that the expression has anything to do with saliva. It originated, I
>believe, among the darkies of the South and the correct phrasing--without
>dialect--is "spirit and image." It was originally used in speaking of some
>person whose father had passed on--and the colored folks would say--"the
>very spi't an' image of his daddy."
>Joel Chandler Harris Jr.
>Atlanta, Ga.
>
>DMLance

=46ar be it from me to spit on the spi't of Joel Chandler Harris Jr.
(although doing so on that of his esteemed father would have given me
greater pause), but I don't think this particular reconstruction is much
more than a curious folk etymology (and who better to endorse one than the
grand-nephew, as it were, of Uncle Remus?).  As I noted in those threads to
which Donald Lance refers, the "spit" of "spit and image" has been around
for centuries, first attested in British English, which makes the "darkies"
attribution as unlikely as it is (now) offensive.  Two early OED citations
of the noun:

   (1690)  We are of our father the devil,...as like him as if spit out of h=
is
             mouth.
   (1788:  Grose, Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue)  He is as like his father
             as if he was spit out of his mouth; said of a child much
             resembling his father.


"Spit" si, "spirit" no.  My own nomination for the source of "spit and
image"/"spittin' image" itself, first contributed to Linguist on 9/28/93
and to this list on 2/6/96, was the dialectal participle "spitten", as
supported inter alia by the existence of the French counterpart "c'est son
portrait, tout crach=E9."  Thus, "spitten image", reanalyzed (by those
outside the dialect area) as "spit 'n' image" or as "spittin(g) image", or
as "spit 'n' image" later itself reanalyzed as "spittin(g) image" through
another "mishearing". Thus with a loss of transparency the image or copy,
instead of being the object--what was spit out--becomes the subject, as the
original passive/past participle becomes an active/present one.  Donald
himself enlivened the discussion with a related suggestion--

Could "spitten image" have originated as a reference to ejaculate rather
than to saliva/sputum?   Seems as though I once heard someone offer that
etymology.  Later "transformations" of the term were needed for spitten
images of mothers to occur.            DMLance

--thereby plausibly accounting for the fact that early citations of both
nominal "spit" (on the 'copy' reading) and "spitVn image" all involve a
child as being the perfect spit (clone?) of the father rather than the
mother.  If this is correct, Harris may be right in his claim that the
"spit" of this construction 'has nothing to do with saliva', but for a far
less "spiritual" reason than the one he offers.


Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:35:31 CST
From:    Ellen Johnson <Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WKU.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: Spittin' Image

     Nevertheless, instances of "spirit and image" do indeed occur, for
     example in the LAMSAS records, though I don't have the data available
     here to comment on a racial distribution.  (I did have an elderly
     white woman tell me that "X is the spit of Y" was heard from AfAms.)
     Is this a further reinterpretation of spitten image (possibly
     euphemistic) or a separate development?

     What dates do you have, Larry of the collocations
     spitten image
     spitting image
     spit and image
     in the United States?

     Ellen
     ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Mar 1998 11:19:03 -0800
From:    Peter Richardson <prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: wife-beaters

My niece, who is a student at Trinity Univ. in Texas, told me last night
that white, sleeveless undershirts are known there as "wife beaters." Can
anyone confirm this usage elsewhere?

Peter Richardson

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:29:06 -0600
From:    Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>
Subject: Re: wife-beaters

>My niece, who is a student at Trinity Univ. in Texas, told me last night
>that white, sleeveless undershirts are known there as "wife beaters." Can
>anyone confirm this usage elsewhere?

I first heard it late last year from our 22-year-old receptionist in
Austin, TX, and have since heard it from other young-ish people here.

Kate Catmull
kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:38:41 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: Spittin' Image

At 11:35 AM -0600 3/9/98, Ellen Johnson wrote:
>     Nevertheless, instances of "spirit and image" do indeed occur, for
>     example in the LAMSAS records, though I don't have the data available
>     here to comment on a racial distribution.  (I did have an elderly
>     white woman tell me that "X is the spit of Y" was heard from AfAms.)
>     Is this a further reinterpretation of spitten image (possibly
>     euphemistic) or a separate development?
>
>     What dates do you have, Larry of the collocations
>     spitten image
>     spitting image
>     spit and image
>     in the United States?
>
>     Ellen
>     ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu

Well, I don't have an historical dictionary of specifically American usage
on me and don't have earliest citations, but Wright's English Dialect
Dictionary makes it clear that verbal and nominal 'spit', along with such
collocations as 'as if one was spit out of a person's mouth' or 'as if one
had spit it'--'used to describe a startling resemblance or likeness'--have
been kicking around in Scotland, Ireland, England, and the U.S. since at
least the early 19th c. (I'm not sure if Wright, like the OED, seeks to
attest first citations.)  Wright also lists 'spitten' as a dialectal
participle in Yorkshire and Cumberland, specifically in 'spitten image',
although he also lists 'spit and image' separately; his citations neither
confirm nor disconfirm my hypothesis that 'spitten image' came first.  Of
course, my account would claim Wright's 'spit and image' was first 'spit
'n' image' (from earlier spitten image), the anD coming in only after
reanalysis--and sure enough, his first four citations of the "conjunction"
do indeed have it as 'the (very/varry) spit an' image'.  Although these
citations are all from the British Isles (Northumberland, West Yorkshire,
Lancashire), it seems implausible to me that a specifically AAVE innovation
(spirit and image --> spit an(d) image) just happened to replicate the
pre-existing noun and verb 'spit' cited above and then migrate across the
Atlantic from the pre-Civil War south to rural English speech.  The
alternative chronology, i.e. that 'spit an' image' originated
simultaneously by chance in Britain and southern U.S. speech, from entirely
different sources (spirit and image, spitten image) but yielding exactly
the same meaning, is hard to refute but to me both implausible and
inelegant.  So my answer to Ellen's query above would be that 'spirit and
image' is indeed another reinterpretation/ reanalysis/folk etymology of
'spitVn image' rather than an entirely separate development.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Mar 1998 13:42:20 -0600
From:    Shannon Detchemendy <detch[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
Subject: Re: wife-beaters

At 11:19 AM 3/9/98 -0800, you wrote:
>My niece, who is a student at Trinity Univ. in Texas, told me last night
>that white, sleeveless undershirts are known there as "wife beaters." Can
>anyone confirm this usage elsewhere?
>
>Peter Richardson

I am a student at the University of MO at Rolla and I have heard the term
"wife beaters" used to describe white tank tops for many years.  I think the
earliest I remember it being popular was when I was in middle school.

Shannon Detchemendy

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:34:05 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: wife-beaters

Sounds reminiscent of Stanley and Stella--any other suggestions as to source?


At 01:29 PM 3/9/98 -0600, you wrote:
>>My niece, who is a student at Trinity Univ. in Texas, told me last night
>>that white, sleeveless undershirts are known there as "wife beaters." Can
>>anyone confirm this usage elsewhere?
>
>I first heard it late last year from our 22-year-old receptionist in
>Austin, TX, and have since heard it from other young-ish people here.
>
>Kate Catmull
>kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Mar 1998 14:47:13 -0600
From:    Katherine Catmull <kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BGA.COM>
Subject: Re: wife-beaters

>Sounds reminiscent of Stanley and Stella--any other suggestions as to source?

Robert DeNiro in "Raging Bull"? Actually this is simply the first example
to occur to me. My husband, who favors these shirts, calls them "old
Italian man T-shirts," which suggests that he like me associates them
with urban, working-class, "ethnic" men of the 1950's. I suppose the
unpleasant "wife-beating" stereotype could attach there as well.

Kate Catmull
kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Mar 1998 16:09:11 -0500
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: connecticut folk (revisited)

At 12:01 AM 3/9/98 -0600, salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu wrote:
>> Because the CT state nickname is "the Nutmeg State." (Cf. Ohio as "the
>> Buckeye State.")
>>
>> Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu
>
>Historically minded folks may recall the source of that label.
>
>People from Connecticut (gee, I wonder if there's a single word for
>that?) were called "nutmeggers" because some of them were heavily
>involved in the spice trade.
>
>Calling them nutmeggers was an insulting reference to the sly ways of
>Connecticut traders.  They had the reputation of spending their time
>carving imitation nutmeg out of scrub trees -- then building fortunes by
>mixing their worthless carvings into shipments of genuine nutmeg.
>
>A "nutmegger" was a seller of adulterated merchandise.
>
>So when you say "Nutmeg State", you'd better smile, pardner.
>

One does hear "Nutmeg State" from time to time in the media here in the NYC
area. It has never had a pejorative connotation as far as I can tell, in the
15+ years I have lived here. Assuming the term was pejorative in the distant
past, I suspect that this negative connotation is gone, in everyday usage
anyway. It's usually a "colorful" alternative to "CT," often in contexts
such as politics or sports.

Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Mar 1998 15:46:41 -0600
From:    "Salikoko S. Mufwene" <s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: Spittin' Image

>At 11:35 AM -0600 3/9/98, Ellen Johnson wrote:
>>     Nevertheless, instances of "spirit and image" do indeed occur, for
>>     example in the LAMSAS records, though I don't have the data available
>>     here to comment on a racial distribution.  (I did have an elderly
>>     white woman tell me that "X is the spit of Y" was heard from AfAms.)
>>     Is this a further reinterpretation of spitten image (possibly
>>     euphemistic) or a separate development?

     The African-American nonstandard pronunciation of _spirit_ I have
typically heard is [spErit]. I too find Larry Horn's position more
plausible than the seemingly folk etymology reported Ellen Johnson and Don
Lance. There is also an 18th-century Kittitian Creole text, by Samuel
Matthews (the counterpart of Ambrose Gonzales, in my opinion) in which a
Black slave suspecting his master of having sired his child complains that
he looks as if the master had just spat him. The text does not contain the
phrase "spitting image" but highlights the child-sirer resemblance with the
verb "spit". It is easy enough to think of Africanism (unknown to me--but
Africa is diverse!) here, but it is very plausible that to assume that the
figure of speech was well established then.

Sali.

*******************************************************
Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu
University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
Department of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
*******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Mar 1998 17:59:21 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: GREASY/GREAZY

Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>  writes
>>>
One would also 'greaze' the car, but with 'grease'--a distinction no So/SoMid
 speaker disputes, am I right?

<<<
I didn't know of this (my ignorance!), but it pleases me, as I see it as fitting
 the pattern of voicing a final fricative in a
denominal verb. Cf.
        a house   to house
        breath    to breathe
        glass     glaze
     grass     graze
etc.

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/
       http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/index.html

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Mar 1998 18:48:13 -0500
From:    frank abate <abatef[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: butt

RE the comment on _butt_ as "one of the ugliest words in the language":

It strikes me that while _butt_ may seem ugly (even "butt-ugly"), we do u=
se
_but_ with (I'm pretty certain, usually) the same pron.  Is this a case o=
f
semantics causing a reaction that is not a problem purely in terms of the=

sound?  This would be interesting to me, as I've been wondering lately wh=
at
it is about certain words that makes them taboo, disgusting, or repulsive=

to people.  (I suppose almost anything that has its origins in slang will=

seem less than desirable to some.)

While _butt_ has a coarseness about it, at least in the way it is typical=
ly
used, what do folks make of _buns_, now the most common term for that par=
t
of the anatomy in fitness product advertising ("Buns of Steel", etc.)? =

This seems to have supplanted _derriere_, once common among the fitness
types.

Just some stray thoughts,

Frank Abate

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Mar 1998 19:19:04 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subj
======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/9/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 7 Mar 1998 to 8 Mar 1998               98-03-09 00:00:13
There are 5 messages totalling 172 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. News from ACLS
  2. Tom Clark, ADS, and ACLS
  3. Distnc. btw. "crick"&"creek", GREASY/GREAZY
  4. connecticut folk (revisited) (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 7 Mar 1998 21:43:47 -0800
From:    "Thomas L. Clark" <tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU>
Subject: Re: News from ACLS

Dear Allan,

I am presently scanning Tom's email and ran across the one from you
RE ADS, dated today.  This suggests that you haven't heard the news,
although Grant Smith sent it out on the Names site.  Maybe you didn't
receive it.

Tom died suddently, though as you probably know, not unexpectedly, on
February 26.  We have already had the religious part of the rites of
closure and the University Memorial is to be on Monday evening.

By the way, the date of his departure was auspicious.  It was my birthday.
My heartfelt response continues to be, "It was the finest gift he ever
gave me."  Our middle child, also a nurse and I were with him and he
accomplished this last task with the dignity and grace that characterized
not only his relationship with me and the children, but that was the
hallmark of the rest of his life, as well.

He taught up until the day before and his last official university
business was to chair a meeting of a new committee being formed to mentor
new faculty.

The outpouring from friends, students and collegues has been tremendous,
though again, not unexpected.  He seemed to be acheieving the status of
"Grand Old Man," something that he used to attribute to only Raven
McDavid, Harold Allen, Fred Cassidy, and the like. His students are
devestated and for once, his collegues are hushed.

I have spoken to Grant Smith and to Victoria Neufeldt.  Victoria is
preparing an announcement for DSNA based on a complete vita that I faxed
to her. She has been most helpful.

Please pass the news along to David Barnhart, as well and tell him that I
will be in touch with him when the dust settles.  I will have some
questions about royalty payments for the gaming dictionary for tax
purposes.

My best regards,

Jeanne


 Thomas L. Clark
Department of English
University of Nevada, Las Vegas
Las Vegas NV  89154-5011
<tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu>  702/895-3473   FAX 702/895-4801

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 8 Mar 1998 15:14:13 EST
From:    AAllan <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Tom Clark, ADS, and ACLS

 Tom Clark was a great leader, friend, and scholar. He had wide interests and
saw connections that others missed. I had the particular privilege to observe
him from close up as a leader.
  He was an involved, genial, and astute vice president and then president of
ADS in the 1980s. Later, from 1988 to 1991, he served an impressive term as
ADS delegate to the American Council of Learned Societies, the consortium to
which ADS belongs. Until his time, the Delegate's role had been largely
ceremonial: attending the annual meeting of ACLS, voting to approve the budget
drawn up by the ACLS staff in New York, listening to talks by distinguished
scholars, partaking of good food and drink. Tom did not shrink from these
responsibilities, but he was not content with them either. At his initiative,
he was appointed to the small Executive Committee of the Delegates. From
there, throughout his four-year term, he worked with other delegates and with
ACLS President Stan Katz to make the Delegates more active and useful. As our
current Delegate (Richard Bailey) can attest, the position of Delegate now has
some substance to it, both in the review of ACLS headquarters activity and in
the overview of scholarship in the humanities.
  It was a particular pleasure for me when Tom attended a fall meeting of the
Conference of Administrative Officers of ACLS. There he was an able and
congenial spokesman for the Delegates of more than fifty learned societies.
  It was a pleasure, also, that his wife Jeanne could be with him on that
trip. And that reminds me of the magnificent hospitality he and Jeanne
displayed to Donna and me, and to everyone who attended his Las Vegas meeting
of the Dictionary Society of North America in May 1993. Whether it was
hospitality at their beautiful home, a ride in his convertible down the Strip,
or a group photo by the giant flashlight, we will never forget the congenial
collegiality that they imparted to every moment of that meeting.
  Tom's books will be read and appreciated for years to come. I regret that
new readers won't be able to appreciate first hand the wonderful man who
created them.
- Allan Metcalf

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:11:01 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Distnc. btw. "crick"&"creek", GREASY/GREAZY

My graduate student from SW Virginia (Covington) would have to agree with
Ron: she says really oily hands (from car grease, for ex.) are 'greazy,'
while messy food plates, french fries, etc. are just 'greasy.'  She adds,
though, that the distinction may be based in type of grease (car vs. food)
rather than degree.  One would also 'greaze' the car, but with 'grease'--a
distinction no So/SoMid speaker disputes, am I right?


At 07:52 PM 3/5/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Ron of Iowa wrote:
>
>>One thing that surprises me here is that folks say that GREASY and GREAZY
are
>>semantically distinct to the extent that GREAZY things are GREASY, but
>>intensely so, Is this true elsewhere in the South?
>
>Nonsense! (Unless, of course, one is talking about the amount of snake oil
>one has lubricated one's words with.)
>
>Bethany of SE Texas
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 8 Mar 1998 19:48:23 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: connecticut folk (revisited)

Not to sound too naive, but why Nutmeggers???


At 02:45 PM 3/6/98 -0500, you wrote:
>P.S.  Just checking on Nexis, I find two articles that USE (rather than
>mention) such a term, and in both cases, "Connecticutter" was the
>designation of choice.  One article on the history of the problem suggests
>that Nutmeggers is now more popular than the alternatives (of which
>Connecticutter and the rather implausible Connecticosian are listed).  And
>one article by card-carrying (if we had cards) ADS member William Safire
>(On Language, NYT Magazine, 6/6/82) portrays the earlier
>"Connecticutensian" (as in Yalensian) giving way to "Connecticutter", later
>reorthographized as "Connecticuter" (the chosen form of the Government
>Printing Office Style Manual, Safire notes).  Not the best occasion to
>reduce a geminate, I'd say.
>
>Connecticuter than thou,
>Larry
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 8 Mar 1998 22:17:41 -0500
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: connecticut folk (revisited)

At 07:48 PM 3/8/98 -0500, Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU> wrote:
>Not to sound too naive, but why Nutmeggers???
>

Because the CT state nickname is "the Nutmeg State." (Cf. Ohio as "the
Buckeye State.")

Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Mar 1998 to 8 Mar 1998
**********************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/8/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 6 Mar 1998 to 7 Mar 1998               98-03-08 00:03:15
There are 2 messages totalling 103 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Distnc. btw. "crick"&"creek", GREASY/GREAZY
  2. News from ACLS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 7 Mar 1998 13:56:39 EST
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Distnc. btw. "crick"&"creek", GREASY/GREAZY

In a message dated 3/5/98 7:53:02 PM, you wrote:

<<Ron of Iowa wrote:

>One thing that surprises me here is that folks say that GREASY and GREAZY are
>semantically distinct to the extent that GREAZY things are GREASY, but
>intensely so, Is this true elsewhere in the South?

Nonsense! (Unless, of course, one is talking about the amount of snake oil
one has lubricated one's words with.)

Bethany of SE Texas
>>

No, I've heard thils from several independent sources--including dInIs of
Kentucky.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 7 Mar 1998 14:39:59 EST
From:    AAllan <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: News from ACLS

The American Dialect Society is one of the 60 constituent societies of the
American Council of Learned Societies. What's that? Well, here's their news. -
Allan Metcalf
----------------------------
     **EXTRA! THE LATEST NEWS FROM THE ACLS**

     Here is a preview of the latest news on the Website
     of the American Council of Learned Societies
     <http://www.acls.org>.


     ACLS ONLINE DIRECTORY OF CONSTITUENT SOCIETIES
     NOW AVAILABLE

     We are very pleased to present the ACLS Online
     Directory of Constituent Societies, which
     provides information on our member learned
     societies and affiliates, including:

     -- Links to Websites and e-mail contacts
     -- CAO Representative
     -- ACLS Delegate
     -- Officers
     -- Board Elections
     -- Staff
     -- Membership & Dues
     -- Affiliated Organizations
     -- Inernational Organizations
     -- Scheduled Meetings
     -- Publications
     -- Honors, Awards, etc.
     -- Fellowships & Grants
     -- Committees
     -- Education Projects
     -- Other Activities

     Previously issued each year in print, the
     Directory in its new online format will be
     frequently updated and available to a wider
     audience.

     You may access the Online Directory at
     <http://www.acls.org/ls-dir.htm>.


     NEW OCCASIONAL PAPER ON "COMPUTING AND THE
     HUMANITIES"

     We are pleased to present a new title in the
     Occasional Paper series:

     "Computing and the Humanities: Summary of a
     Roundtable Meeting" (ACLS Occasional Paper
     No. 41).

     A March 1997 meeting, sponsored by the
     Computer Science and Telecommunications Board
     (CSTB) of the National Research Council in
     collaboration with the Coalition
     for Networked Information, the National Initiative
     for a Networked Cultural Heritage, and the Two
     Ravens Institute, exploring the complexities of
     cross-disciplinary collaboration.

     For this and other ACLS titles,
     see ACLS Publications at
     <http://www.acls.org/pub-list.htm>.

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Mar 1998 to 7 Mar 1998
**********************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/7/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 5 Mar 1998 to 6 Mar 1998               98-03-07 00:00:22
This message contains more text than QuickMail can display. The entire message
 has been enclosed as a file.

There are 17 messages totalling 561 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Ms. (2)
  2. In Memoriam, Tom Clark
  3. jerry; gandy dancer [lengthy]
  4. adj. + moment (2)
  5. HDAS dating practices (was: re: jerry) (2)
  6. Tom Clark memorial
  7. Re[2]: Ms.
  8. connecticut folk (4)
  9. connecticut folk (revisited) (2)
 10. miss & Mr.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 Mar 1998 22:46:32 -0800
From:    Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: Ms.

>..."Ms." does often seem to convey [+feminist], in the others
>its use is for women in non-prototypical or non-conventional situations.

Well, if one defines "feminist" as not wanting to be defined by your
relationship with a man, then I guess it is.

Rima

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Mar 1998 01:10:14 -0600
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: In Memoriam, Tom Clark

Tom signed his e-mails tlc.  Appropriately, I thought.

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:56:58 +0000
From:    Jim Rader <jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: jerry; gandy dancer [lengthy]

RHHDAS and DARE have done the first documentation of _jerry_ "section
worker," which is missing from general dictionaries as far as I have
looked.  The date of the first RHHDAS cite, "ca. 1867," is
misleading, though.  Lighter has taken it from a long extract in the
book _Makin' track: The Story of the Transcontinental Railroad in the
Pictures and Words of the Men Who Were There_, edited by Lynne Rhodes
Mayer and Kenneth E. Vose and published by Praeger in 1975.  The
extract in Mayer and Vose is attributed only to "reporter Cy Warman,"
with no bibliographical citation.  I believe the source of the quote
is Cy Warman's book _The Story of the Railroad_ (New York: D.
Appleton & Co., 1898).  The passage in question (p. 95-96) is worth quoting in
full:

- The average grader can take care of himself in a rough-and-tumble
- fight, and the boss will not resort to pick handles, as sea-captains
- do to marline spikes, according to sea stories.  To be sure, there
- are exceptions in men and circumstances.  There have been times when
- the "Jerries" and "Dagos" have got mixed, when the boss and his
- assistants have been obliged to face the rioters and quiet them with
- a formidable display of firearms; but if there are no "foreigners,"
- but just Irish and ordinary labourers, the boss rules his subjects
- with comparative ease.

Warman was born in 1855 (according to _Who Was Who in America_) and
started his railroad career in the 1880's; he could not be considered
a firsthand source for railroading language of ca. 1867, and the date
of the cite should be 1898.

The second cite in RHHDAS is from Norm Cohen's _Long Steel Rail:  The
Railroad in American Folksong_ (Urbana:  Univ. of Ill. Press, c1981).
In this case, the date of 1888 is documented.  Cohen quotes from a
broadside ballad, "The Hand-Car That Never Returned" by Alexander
Malin (a parody of "The Ship That Never Returned" by Henry Clay
Work), copyrighted, according to Cohen, in 1888:

- On a Winter's day, as the Train was whistling through the
-      "Transcontinental" Gate,
- A Hand Car started, with its burden laden, over Section
-      seventy-eight.
- There was many a joke among the "Jerrys," for their thoughts were
-      unconcerned,
- They little knew 'twas their last sad voyage on the Hand-Car that
-      never returned.

This is quibbling, but I have run across a number of cites in the
first two volumes of RHHDAS that are like the above two:  secondary
sources are cited, and you can only get at the original authors--in
this case Cy Warman and Alexander Malin--by running to the library
and looking up the secondary sources.  Every historical dictionary
does this to some degree, but RHHDAS a bit more than others, I think.
I suppose this is a consequence of the project having been a
one-person operation for many years; Lighter simply could not have
taken the time to track down every reference.  There is also the
problem of dating by the period the author was referring to, on the
assumption that s/he was an eyewitness--another device resorted to by
other historical dictionaries.  In some cases it works; in the case
of Cy Warman, who was twelve years old in 1867, it doesn't.

RHHDAS defines _jerry_ as "a section worker, orig. one who is Irish,"
though nothing in the cites justifies "orig. one who is Irish."  The
Warman quote I give above could be read as equating _Jerries_ with
"Irish and ordinary labourers," but that's as far as it goes.

While on railroad language, I can't help mentioning the better known
expression for a section hand, _gandy dancer_.  Neither RHHDAS nor
any other source I have run across dates this any earlier than 1918.
It seems like it should be antedatable, at least from the first
decade of the century.  One of Lighter's cites gives the hypothesis
that the source of _gandy_ was a Gandy Manufacturing Company in
Chicago that made tools for section gangs.  When I worked freelance
out of the University of Chicago library, I once spent an afternoon
in the basement of Regenstein looking through railroad trade journals
of the period 1890-1915.  There were lots of equipment ads, but no
Gandy.  Chicago city directories for the period also did not list a
Gandy Manufacturing Company.  This etymology is cited as "probably"
the source in DARE and Webster New World, but as far as I'm
concerned, it's bogus pending new evidence.

Jim Rader

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:30:58 -0500
From:    Karen Lubell <lubell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NYTIMES.COM>
Subject: adj. + moment

Hello all!

I'm looking into recent constructions of an adjective plus the word
"moment."  I have
heard "zen moment" (which John Algeo lists in the summer 1997 American
Speech), but Mr. Safire has also heard "I'm having a senior moment" (to
indicate a lapse in memory or decline in agility) as well as a "blond
moment" (to mean having a momentary lapse of intelligence).

Another source remembers that the original moment was a "Kodak moment."

I am interested in any other constructions, as well as any speculation about
the origin of these kinds of phrases--


Thanks!




Karen Lubell
Researcher
William Safire's "On Language"
The New York Times

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:43:05 -0500
From:    Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>
Subject: HDAS dating practices (was: re: jerry)

I'd like to thank Jim Rader for his comments and corrections about
the entry for _Jerry_ (1) in the Random House Historical Dictionary
of American Slang. I'd like to take this opportunity to clarify our
practices in dating by secondary sources.

As Jim points out, we often cite from secondary sources. This is
chiefly due, as Jim also acknowledges, to the fact that checking
every cite against an original is extremely time-consuming, and we
are in effect a one-man show in the library research department.
Nonetheless we do try to check originals where possible, especially
for first attestations.

> The date of the first RHHDAS cite, "ca. 1867," is
> misleading, though.  Lighter has taken it from a long extract in the
> book _Makin' track: The Story of the Transcontinental Railroad in the
> Pictures and Words of the Men Who Were There_, edited by Lynne Rhodes
> Mayer and Kenneth E. Vose and published by Praeger in 1975.  The
> extract in Mayer and Vose is attributed only to "reporter Cy Warman,"
> with no bibliographical citation.  I believe the source of the quote
> is Cy Warman's book _The Story of the Railroad_ (New York: D.
> Appleton & Co., 1898).

Lighter does not now remember the circumstances of this citation. In
general, we would never "back-date" a citation to the date of the events
described, unless there was some real evidence suggestion that that was
the actual date of composition. In this case, there must have been
something in Mayer and Vose to suggest that the passage really did date
from _ca_1867. If we did not have such evidence, we would date the passage
to the earliest possible documentable date, and add a "ref. to"-type note.
In this example, with the evidence we now have from Jim, we would re-date
this passage to 1898. Again, I can't explain where the _ca_1867 date
comes from. (If other evidence reliably pointed to 1867, we might say
"1898 Warman _Railroad_ 95 [ref. to _ca_1867]", for example, but I'll
accept Jim's word that this would not be correct here.)

> There is also the
> problem of dating by the period the author was referring to, on the
> assumption that s/he was an eyewitness--another device resorted to by
> other historical dictionaries.  In some cases it works; in the case
> of Cy Warman, who was twelve years old in 1867, it doesn't.

To restate this, we would not normally give a date for a citation
based only on the period the author was referring to. In fact, when
allegedly "period" documents that were published later seem to have
historically unlikely words in them, we will include notes saying
"the uniquely early 1942 example may be a later interpolation at the
time of publication," or something of the sort.

The accurate dating of our citations is very important to us, and
we'd appreciate any corrections of this nature that users of the HDAS
discover.

> RHHDAS defines _jerry_ as "a section worker, orig. one who is Irish,"
> though nothing in the cites justifies "orig. one who is Irish."  The
> Warman quote I give above could be read as equating _Jerries_ with
> "Irish and ordinary labourers," but that's as far as it goes.

The passage in question reads "There have been times when the 'Jerries'
and 'Dagos' have got mixed." Since the whole passage is talking about
railroad workers, it seems very unlikely to me that this means "There
have been times when the section-workers and the Italian non-railroad-
section-workers got mixed." At the time of this reference, railroad
workers were chiefly Irish, Italian, or Chinese, and this passage
seems to be drawing a racial distinction. _Jerry_ being a common Irish
name of the period, I believe we are justified in assuming that in
this passage _Jerry_ means 'an Irish section worker', if not simply
'an Irish person'.

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Mar 1998 09:15:53 PST
From:    barbara harris <GRADMA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVVM.UVIC.CA>
Subject: Re: Tom Clark memorial

I was with great regret that I read this morning of Tom Clark's death. Like
Bethany, I (along with Henry Warkentyne, Joe Kess and Jimmy Arthurs) first met
him at Methods I in Charlottetown. The last message I had from him was about a
year ago when he replied to my notice about Henry Warkentyne's death.
In the intervening twenty years, various of us from
here at UVic saw him at other Methods conferences -- he was on the organizing
committee for the first one held here, and he taught History of the English
Language for several summers (our summers are cooler than Las Vegas, and we
have a great variety of golf courses, on which Tom and Henry spent many sunny
afternoons).

I expect Henry is showing him around the available golf courses wherever they
both have found themselves.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:29:49 CST
From:    Ellen Johnson <Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WKU.EDU>
Subject: Re[2]: Ms.

I will have to sadly agree that Ms. seems to have been reinterpreted in the
 South as described.  It is discouraging to go into local elementary schools
 where teachers have wooden signs with their names hanging outside their doors
 and see that they are almost all Miss or Mrs.  I'd be willing to bet that the
 few Ms's are indeed divorced.

I remember being pleased when I was married and kept my maiden name that one of
 my professosrs (NOT a Southerner), who referred to students as Mr., Miss, or
 Mrs., would now have to resort to Ms, since neither Miss Johnson nor Mrs.
 Johnson would be logical.  I feel that people are prying into my personal life
 when they ask me if I am Miss, Mrs, or Ms and I have to say I get some pleasure
 out of being able to say "Dr" to these people without divulging my marital
 status.

Ellen
ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Mar 1998 12:55:45 +0000
From:    Lynne Murphy <M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU>
Subject: connecticut folk

for my students:

can anyone tell me if there's a name for people from connecticut?
(connecticutians?  connecticutters?)  not finding anything in my
dictionaries...

lynne
--

M. Lynne Murphy
Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English
Baylor University
PO Box 97404
Waco, TX 76798

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Mar 1998 13:58:16 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ms.

At 10:46 PM -0800 3/5/98, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:
>>..."Ms." does often seem to convey [+feminist], in the others
>>its use is for women in non-prototypical or non-conventional situations.
>
>Well, if one defines "feminist" as not wanting to be defined by your
>relationship with a man, then I guess it is.
>
>Rima

The first couple of lines were mine, and the answer is yes, I'd certainly
maintain that "feminist (woman)" entails (while clearly not being
restricted to) the desire not to be defined by your relationship with a man.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Mar 1998 11:09:57 -0800
From:    Peter Richardson <prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: connecticut folk

> can anyone tell me if there's a name for people from connecticut?
> (connecticutians?  connecticutters?)  not finding anything in my
> dictionaries...

Larry Horn's sure to know. I'd guess "Nutmeggers." ANd I can hear the
laughter already.

Peter

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:35:18 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: connecticut folk

At 11:09 AM -0800 3/6/98, Peter Richardson wrote:
>> can anyone tell me if there's a name for people from connecticut?
>> (connecticutians?  connecticutters?)  not finding anything in my
>> dictionaries...
>
>Larry Horn's sure to know. I'd guess "Nutmeggers." ANd I can hear the
>laughter already.
>
>Peter

Au contraire, Peter (and Lynne (and others who might wish to know)).  This
is the second time this week I was asked, though; my daughter raised the
same question on Wednesday and I didn't know how to answer her either,
although I mentioned having heard "Connecticutters" on a number of
occasions (and usually wincing when I did).  I think "people from
Connecticut" is often used, but that doesn't really answer the question.
No, "Nutmeggers" is not the term, except possibly as a nonce
faute-de-mieux, and I suspect most around here consider "Connecticutters"
mieux.  Maybe someone from Greenwich would prefer to be known as a
"Connecticutty."

Disappointingly,
Larry the Conn-man

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Mar 1998 14:45:10 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: connecticut folk (revisited)

P.S.  Just checking on Nexis, I find two articles that USE (rather than
mention) such a term, and in both cases, "Connecticutter" was the
designation of choice.  One article on the history of the problem suggests
that Nutmeggers is now more popular than the alternatives (of which
Connecticutter and the rather implausible Connecticosian are listed).  And
one article by card-carrying (if we had cards) ADS member William Safire
(On Language, NYT Magazine, 6/6/82) portrays the earlier
"Connecticutensian" (as in Yalensian) giving way to "Connecticutter", later
reorthographized as "Connecticuter" (the chosen form of the Government
Printing Office Style Manual, Safire notes).  Not the best occasion to
reduce a geminate, I'd say.

Connecticuter than thou,
Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:23:32 +0000
From:    Victoria Neufeldt <vneufeldt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: Re: connecticut folk (revisited)

This is from Paul Dickson's _Labels for Locals_:

"A demonym derived from the name of the state has been a matter of
long-standing debate and deliberation.  For decades the public
printer of the United States has used _Connecticuter_ in publications
created by the Government Printing Office (GPO), but this has been
widely ignored and derided outside government . . .

"Columbia University Professor Allen Walker Read (who has gone on
record as opposing the GPO's _Connecticuter_ with one _t_) once
researched this topic and found an impressive list of early attempts:
_Connecticotian_ (Cotton Mather, 1702), _Connecticutensian_ (Samuel
Peters, 1781), and _Connecticutter_ (a California periodical, _Land
of Sunshine_, 1897).  The last reference may have been intended as a
slur: 'All the gates the [Hartford] _Courant_ can put up will not
keep the steady stream of Connecticutters from migrating to
California.' "

Dickson goes on to say that "a number of good writers" have used the
_-cuter_ form, and mentions Stephen Vincent Benet (1944).  Dickson's
article implies that there still is not a generally accepted term.
He does deal with the _Nutmegger_ name too, as well as a host of
jocular names based on _Connecticut_, including, of course,
_Connecticutey_, and ends his discussion with a quote from Allan D.
Pratt of New Haven: "by far the most common term used to describe
residents of Connecticut is 'Commuters.' "

Victoria Neufeldt

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:13:16 EST
From:    AAllan <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: connecticut folk

Allen Walker Read has written about this too, though I don't have the
citation. But you'll find a page about "Nutmegger" and "Connecticutter" and
many others, in Paul Dickson's recent _Labels for Locals_ (Merriam-Webster,
1997). - Allan Metcalf

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Mar 1998 16:33:24 +0000
From:    Jim Rader <jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: Re: HDAS dating practices (was: re: jerry)

>
> I'd like to thank Jim Rader for his comments and corrections about
> the entry for _Jerry_ (1) in the Random House Historical Dictionary
> of American Slang. I'd like to take this opportunity to clarify our
> practices in dating by secondary sources.
>
.........
>
> > RHHDAS defines _jerry_ as "a section worker, orig. one who is Irish,"
> > though nothing in the cites justifies "orig. one who is Irish."  The
> > Warman quote I give above could be read as equating _Jerries_ with
> > "Irish and ordinary labourers," but that's as far as it goes.
>
> The passage in question reads "There have been times when the 'Jerries'
> and 'Dagos' have got mixed." Since the whole passage is talking about
> railroad workers, it seems very unlikely to me that this means "There
> have been times when the section-workers and the Italian non-railroad-
> section-workers got mixed." At the time of this reference, railroad
> workers were chiefly Irish, Italian, or Chinese, and this passage
> seems to be drawing a racial distinction. _Jerry_ being a common Irish
> name of the period, I believe we are justified in assuming that in
> this passage _Jerry_ means 'an Irish section worker', if not simply
> 'an Irish person'.
>
> Jesse Sheidlower
> <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>
>
If _Jerries_ is to be taken as an ethnic label, then it most likely
means "Irishmen," as opposed to _Dagos_ (presumably, "Italians"), but
then it wouldn't mean "Irish section hands" anymore than _Dago_ means
"Italian section hand.''  On the other hand, if _Dago_ is be equated with
"foreigner," when Warman speaks a little further down of "no
'foreigners,' but just Irish and ordinary labourers," then _Jerries_
could be equated with "Irish and ordinary labourers," i.e., the
_Jerries_ are the older stratum of section hands, some Irish and some
of indeterminate or irrelevant ancestry.  In this case, _Jerry_ has
the meaning "section hand," with no ethnic implication--a sense
supported by th
======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/6/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 4 Mar 1998 to 5 Mar 1998               98-03-06 00:01:39
This message contains more text than QuickMail can display. The entire message
 has been enclosed as a file.

There are 18 messages totalling 613 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Ms. (9)
  2. Videos we use in classes
  3. Tom's service
  4. Fred Cassidy (2)
  5. Computer hacking (cracking) (2)
  6. Distnc. btw. "crick"&"creek", GREASY/GREAZY (2)
  7. In Memoriam, Tom Clark

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:47:52 -0400
From:    JANE M SPALDING-JAMIESON <JSPALDINGJAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA>
Subject: Ms.

I have also run into people wondering about the meaning of the term
Ms.

When I was teaching English in the Czech Republic, and introduced
myself as Ms. Spalding, my teenaged students asked me, did your
husband die? Or are you a feminist? And/or a lesbian? (Feminism and
homosexuality, I since gathered, being mostly looked down upon by
Eastern Europe, my students weren't sure if feminism and
homosexuality might be linked ...)

I was shocked and amused, and the questions sparked a discussion on
whether or not it makes sense to have a word such as Ms. (Czech
language doesn't have it), and on views of feminism.

Another experience was during a temporary phone job in the fall, here
in the smaller, more traditional community of PEI, phoning alumni
of all ages. We addressed all women as Ms., as a policy, and
I found that the older women often corrected me with, I'm a
"Mrs.," dear.

These experiences brought me to this conclusion:

- When you live in a more traditional community, perhaps only
divorced or homosexual women, who have to brave being different
anyways, would use a less traditional term such as Ms.
- This may lead to the conclusion by others in such a community, that
the meaning of Ms. ACTUALLY IS "divorced, widowed or homosexual
woman."
- Obviously this was not the intent of those who first coined the
term! And hopefully we can continue to preserve its original sense,
that of NOT classifying women by their marital status.

- Ms.
Jane Spalding-Jamieson
UPEI Linguistics Student

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:33:30 -0500
From:    Alan Baragona <baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ms.

JANE M SPALDING-JAMIESON wrote:
>
snip
>
> These experiences brought me to this conclusion:
>
> - When you live in a more traditional community, perhaps only
> divorced or homosexual women, who have to brave being different
> anyways, would use a less traditional term such as Ms.
> - This may lead to the conclusion by others in such a community, that
> the meaning of Ms. ACTUALLY IS "divorced, widowed or homosexual
> woman."

This seems to me to be a very reasonable conclusion about what is going
on socially and psychologically.

> - Obviously this was not the intent of those who first coined the
> term! And hopefully we can continue to preserve its original sense,
> that of NOT classifying women by their marital status.
>

Which leads to the question of whether or not the term's originally
intended use is salvageable in the face of widespread reinterpretation.

Alan B.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 Mar 1998 11:59:15 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ms.

At 11:33 AM -0500 3/5/98, Alan Baragona wrote:
>JANE M SPALDING-JAMIESON wrote:
>>
>snip
>>
>> These experiences brought me to this conclusion:
>>
>> - When you live in a more traditional community, perhaps only
>> divorced or homosexual women, who have to brave being different
>> anyways, would use a less traditional term such as Ms.
>> - This may lead to the conclusion by others in such a community, that
>> the meaning of Ms. ACTUALLY IS "divorced, widowed or homosexual
>> woman."
>
>This seems to me to be a very reasonable conclusion about what is going
>on socially and psychologically.

Maybe the generalization is something like [- paradigmatic] or [marked],
or something along those lines, where the interpretation of these notions
will vary from community to community.  Even within the
urban/academic/middle-class culture most of us operate in, there seems to
be a tendency to use Ms. (in non-business-envelope contexts) for unmarried
adult woman (replacing Miss) and for married women who retain their maiden
name (replacing an already awkwardly extended use of Miss or an even more
awkward extension of Mrs.), and for divorced women who either retain their
ex-husband's name or revert to their maiden name.  In the first of these
subcategories, "Ms." does often seem to convey [+feminist], in the others
its use is for women in non-prototypical or non-conventional situations.


>> - Obviously this was not the intent of those who first coined the
>> term! And hopefully we can continue to preserve its original sense,
>> that of NOT classifying women by their marital status.
>>
>
>Which leads to the question of whether or not the term's originally
>intended use is salvageable in the face of widespread reinterpretation.
>
The same problem that extends to e.g. "chairperson" or "spokesperson",
typically now used specifically for women in those roles rather than for
people of irrelevant sex.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:46:37 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ms.

Our department chair(man) always signs himself 'Chair' or 'Chairperson'
(ah, those enlightened linguists!).  Again, I don't really think the change
is as problematic as suggested, nor has there been (re: Alan) "widespread
reinterpretation" of 'Ms.'

At 11:59 AM 3/5/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 11:33 AM -0500 3/5/98, Alan Baragona wrote:
>>JANE M SPALDING-JAMIESON wrote:
>>>
>>snip
>>>
>>> These experiences brought me to this conclusion:
>>>
>>> - When you live in a more traditional community, perhaps only
>>> divorced or homosexual women, who have to brave being different
>>> anyways, would use a less traditional term such as Ms.
>>> - This may lead to the conclusion by others in such a community, that
>>> the meaning of Ms. ACTUALLY IS "divorced, widowed or homosexual
>>> woman."
>>
>>This seems to me to be a very reasonable conclusion about what is going
>>on socially and psychologically.
>
>Maybe the generalization is something like [- paradigmatic] or [marked],
>or something along those lines, where the interpretation of these notions
>will vary from community to community.  Even within the
>urban/academic/middle-class culture most of us operate in, there seems to
>be a tendency to use Ms. (in non-business-envelope contexts) for unmarried
>adult woman (replacing Miss) and for married women who retain their maiden
>name (replacing an already awkwardly extended use of Miss or an even more
>awkward extension of Mrs.), and for divorced women who either retain their
>ex-husband's name or revert to their maiden name.  In the first of these
>subcategories, "Ms." does often seem to convey [+feminist], in the others
>its use is for women in non-prototypical or non-conventional situations.
>
>
>>> - Obviously this was not the intent of those who first coined the
>>> term! And hopefully we can continue to preserve its original sense,
>>> that of NOT classifying women by their marital status.
>>>
>>
>>Which leads to the question of whether or not the term's originally
>>intended use is salvageable in the face of widespread reinterpretation.
>>
>The same problem that extends to e.g. "chairperson" or "spokesperson",
>typically now used specifically for women in those roles rather than for
>people of irrelevant sex.
>
>Larry
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:40:34 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ms.

"Traditional" is a relative term, of course.  In general, 'Ms' is catching
on widely in the U.S. and bears little stigma (except in the South?  But
remember Ms. Lillian!).  And in any case, the term is alive and well,
whether it "makes sense" or not.  BTW, I'm the opposite of your older PEI
woman: When addressed as Mrs., I say "Ms., if you please"--and I always get
a polite acceptance of it.  I teach a course on Language and Gender, and
students never have a problem with the term.

At 11:47 AM 3/5/98 -0400, you wrote:
>I have also run into people wondering about the meaning of the term
>Ms.
>
>When I was teaching English in the Czech Republic, and introduced
>myself as Ms. Spalding, my teenaged students asked me, did your
>husband die? Or are you a feminist? And/or a lesbian? (Feminism and
>homosexuality, I since gathered, being mostly looked down upon by
>Eastern Europe, my students weren't sure if feminism and
>homosexuality might be linked ...)
>
>I was shocked and amused, and the questions sparked a discussion on
>whether or not it makes sense to have a word such as Ms. (Czech
>language doesn't have it), and on views of feminism.
>
>Another experience was during a temporary phone job in the fall, here
>in the smaller, more traditional community of PEI, phoning alumni
>of all ages. We addressed all women as Ms., as a policy, and
>I found that the older women often corrected me with, I'm a
>"Mrs.," dear.
>
>These experiences brought me to this conclusion:
>
>- When you live in a more traditional community, perhaps only
>divorced or homosexual women, who have to brave being different
>anyways, would use a less traditional term such as Ms.
>- This may lead to the conclusion by others in such a community, that
>the meaning of Ms. ACTUALLY IS "divorced, widowed or homosexual
>woman."
>- Obviously this was not the intent of those who first coined the
>term! And hopefully we can continue to preserve its original sense,
>that of NOT classifying women by their marital status.
>
>- Ms.
>Jane Spalding-Jamieson
>UPEI Linguistics Student
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 Mar 1998 12:59:00 -0700
From:    Alan Manning <alan_manning[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BYU.EDU>
Subject: Videos we use in classes

I'd like to request the assistance of all of you on ADS-L with the next
issue of the ADS Teaching Newsletter (an insert in the NADS, appearing once
or twice a year).  I'd like to know from as many of you as possible what
VIDEOS you've actually been using in your language-related classes.

If you are pressed for time, you can just fill in the following template:

TITLE OF YOUR COURSE:

STUDENT LEVEL:  (high school, college freshman, sophomore-junior, senior,
graduate)

***and for EACH video you use:
TITLE:
PUBLISHER: (the production company, if you know it)
ORDERING INFO: (where the video is ordered from, and the price if you know
it)
SUBJECT MATTER: (in a couple of sentences, what's on the tape).

IF YOU HAVE A LITTLE MORE TIME, I'd appreciate hearing from you, in a
paragraph or three, what scenes you particularly call your students'
attention to, and why those scenes are important to your teaching goals in
the course.

I'll be compiling your responses until March 23 (at which point I have to
write them up and send them on to NADS).    I hope you can find a little
time between now and then to respond.

 I particularly like to thank Bethany Dumas for giving me the inspiration
for this topic with her recent post about "Yeah you rite!"

Keep in in mind too, that you and any of your colleagues are invited to
submit items to the _Teaching Newsletter_ any time.   In the past we've
published reviews of textbooks and other classroom supplements, as well as
short articles (1500 words or so) on teaching methods, course design, and
other language-teaching-related topics.

Thanks for your help.

Alan Manning

alan_manning[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]byu.edu
Linguistics Department
BYU, Provo, UT  84602

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:18:20 -0600
From:    Joan Houston Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tom's service

Allan,
I wonder whether Guy Bailey might be the ADS representative?  Do you know
whether they became friends while Guy was at UNLV?  Just a thought.

Joan

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:59:42 -0600
From:    Joan Houston Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fred Cassidy

Dear Allan,
As soon as Fred picked up the phone, I knew it would not be a good idea to
ask him to go to Las Vegas.  His speech was more slurred than it has been
the last few times I've called, and I actually had to remind him who Tom
was.  Once he remembered, he said the appropriate things, but I think we
would risk putting him in a very embarrassing situation if we asked him to
go.  I did mention that there would be a service, and said it wasn't exactly
close to him, and he quickly agreed that it was not close at all.  I'm
afraid that his public speaking days may be over.    Maybe I was too
optimistic after the last times I spoke with him, or maybe this is just a
good illustration of how variable things can be; it was pretty distressing,
though, today.

Did Rudy Troike know Tom?  Tucson is further away than Scottsdale, but
perhaps he would be willing to go and represent ADS.

Joan

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 Mar 1998 16:18:34 -0600
From:    Joan Houston Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Fred Cassidy

Dear ADS members,
I'm very sorry to have posted my letter to Allan to the whole list.  As you
can see, I'm quite concerned about Fred.   Some days he sounds very good;
today wasn't one of them.  He is eager to be back in Madison, and plans to
return on March 16.  I'm hopeful that being home will be very good for him.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:13:24 -0500
From:    Alan Baragona <baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ms.

Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
> Our department chair(man) always signs himself 'Chair' or 'Chairperson'
> (ah, those enlightened linguists!).  Again, I don't really think the change
> is as problematic as suggested, nor has there been (re: Alan) "widespread
> reinterpretation" of 'Ms.'
>

Beverly:

I have only anecdotal evidence and and a strong impression that Ms. has
simply come to mean "Miss" for numerous people, perhaps more than it
means "Mrs./Miss" for, but other people on the list seem to be
reinforcing my impression that the trend is, in fact, widespread, and
maybe especially in the South.  Why do you think it is not?

Alan

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 Mar 1998 17:21:10 -0500
From:    Alan Baragona <baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Ms.

Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
> "Traditional" is a relative term, of course.  In general, 'Ms' is catching
> on widely in the U.S. and bears little stigma (except in the South?  But
> remember Ms. Lillian!).

There may have been some newspapers who spelled it "Ms. Lillian," but I
would just about
bet the farm that it was Southern "Miz Lillian," which has absolutely
nothing to do with "Ms." or the concept behind it.

>And in any case, the term is alive and well,
> whether it "makes sense" or not.  BTW, I'm the opposite of your older PEI
> woman: When addressed as Mrs., I say "Ms., if you please"--and I always get
> a polite acceptance of it.  I teach a course on Language and Gender, and
> students never have a problem with the term.
>

I'd agree that actual hostility to the term may have shrunk to Limbaugh
sized pockets, but polite acceptance of the term when it is presented to
them as a political choice doesn't necessarily mean that in its everyday
use it hasn't been reinterpreted to fall into the older socio-political
paradigm of "Mrs./Miss".  I don't even think it was conscious; I think
it has simply become a matter of force of habit.

Alan

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 Mar 1998 14:40:03 -0800
From:    Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>
Subject: Computer hacking (cracking)

In the article in today's Chronicle re the kids from Cloverdale, CA who
hacked into several government systems, there is a copy of the newly hacked
web page of netdex.  That's the service provider which they used and which
tipped off the FBI.  The page has a badly written message that includes:

"...he don't even know how to trojan a system...

I haven't heard trojan (upper or lower case) used as a verb before.  Is
this new to y'all as well?

Rima

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 Mar 1998 15:45:48 -0800
From:    Devon Coles <dcoles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HORIZON.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Ms.

Yikes! Larry has hit the nail on the head and not driven it home. The notion
of "people of irrelevant sex" (a nicely loaded phrase)  is integral to the
initial problem that gave rise to 'ms' and 'chairperson' in the first place.
(Some would argue that the so-called "irrelevant" sex  is and always has
been the marked one, fe-male.)
There's nothing irrelevant about this distinction - it's the basis upon
which divisions of power and the benchmark of the "fully human being" in
modernity are predicated.
Would that we all could see sex markers as "irrelevant."


>The same problem that extends to e.g. "chairperson" or "spokesperson",
>typically now used specifically for women in those roles rather than for
>people of irrelevant sex.
>
>Larry
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 Mar 1998 18:43:52 -0500
From:    Ron Butters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Distnc. btw. "crick"&"creek", GREASY/GREAZY

Jesse writes:

<<<This writer, who is from an unspecified
but "rural" part of the country, claims that he uses both pronunciations,
but that a "crick" was smaller than a "creek.">>>

I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF THIS--NOT IN IOWA (where we all said CRICK) nor here in
North Carolina.

One thing that surprises me here is that folks say that GREASY and GREAZY are
semantically distinct to the extent that GREAZY things are GREASY, but
intensely so, Is this true elsewhere in the South?

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:52:43 -0500
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Distnc. btw. "crick"&"creek", GREASY/GREAZY

Ron of Iowa wrote:

>One thing that surprises me here is that folks say that GREASY and GREAZY are
>semantically distinct to the extent that GREAZY things are GREASY, but
>intensely so, Is this true elsewhere in the South?

Nonsense! (Unless, of course, one is talking about the amount of snake oil
one has lubricated one's words with.)

Bethany of SE Texas

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 Mar 1998 19:57:49 EST
From:    GarethB2 <GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Computer hacking (cracking)

In a message dated 3/5/98 10:38:54 PM, Rima wrote:

>In the article in today's Chronicle re the kids from Cloverdale, CA who
>hacked into several government systems, there is a copy of the newly hacked
>web page of netdex.  That's the service provider which they used and which
>tipped off the FBI.  The page has a badly written message that includes:
>
>"...he don't even know how to trojan a system...
>
>I haven't heard trojan (upper or lower case) used as a verb before.  Is
>this new to y'all as well?
>
>Rima

It's not very common, but I've seen it before. It's a verbification of Trojan
horse, a malicious computer attack where the harmful program is disguised as
something benign (an email attachment, a game, a template, etc.). When the
user opens it up, the Trojan horse program is executed.


--------------------------------------------------
Gareth Branwyn
garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/

Contributing editor, Wired
Co-author _Happy Mutant Handbook_ , _Internet Power Toolkit_
Author, _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 5 Mar 1998 20:30:06 -0500
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: In Memoriam, Tom Clark

I did not know that Tom Clark was ill last Fall as we exchanged what turned
out to be our last mail messages. I am saddened by his death and, like Ron
Butters, will miss him as both colleague and friend.

I first met Tom at the First International Methods Conference in 1972; we
all spent a week on Prince Edward Island discussing dialectology, eating
seafood, and drinking more alcohol that was good for any of us. My, did we
have a good
======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/5/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 3 Mar 1998 to 4 Mar 1998               98-03-05 00:00:32
There are 7 messages totalling 280 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Wash and Wear; WSJ project
  2. Tom Clark memorial (2)
  3. Rearend/seat (was Re: Butt (was Re: thong))
  4. dialectal loanwords - mebos
  5. US/NIS Curriculum Development Exchange Program
  6. mrs./ms./miss

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Mar 1998 03:12:07 EST
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Wash and Wear; WSJ project

WASH AND WEAR

      I've been looking at the WALL STREET JOURNAL in the 1950s and I found an
article about Japanese clothing, but sorry, no "zori."
      Instead, here's "wash and wear."  OED has "wash and wear" from 1959.
This is from the WSJ, 10 October 1957, pg. 3, col. 4:

New "Wash and Wear"
Women's Clothing Is
Shown by Dupont
     NEW YORK--Du Pont Co. announced introduction of a group of "automatic
wash and wear" women's garments that it says can be washed and dried in
automatic home laundry equipment in about an hour and emerge ready for wear
with no ironing needed.
     The clothes, which include suits, skirts, shorts and dresses, are being
made by seven leading women's wear manufacturers, from fabrics containing high
percentages of Du Pont's Orlon and Dacron synthetic fibres, Du Pont said.
They're expected to be delivered to stores early next year, the company added.
(...)  The first "automatic wash and wear" men's suits were introduced last
April by a single manufacturer, it said, but next spring 37 men's wear
manufacturers will be in the market with "automatic wash and wear" clothing.
(...)  In addition, Du Pont said, it had found in a recent survey of over
1,000 women that "ironing is the most disliked of all household tasks, even
more disliked than scrubbing floors."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
WALL STREET JOURNAL PROJECT

      I am, of course, aware that the recent WSJs are online.  However,
there's something to be said for reading the whole way through.  (The
"PEPPER...and Salt" daily cartoons I'm collecting contain loads of wonderful
jargon jokes.)
     "Glass ceiling" was discussed here and can be found on the computer.  But
the 16 January 1958 WSJ has "feminine fallout."  The 16 October 1957 WSJ has
"rubber ceiling."  The 20 January 1958 WSJ has "flexible ceiling."  I would
not even think of searching for these terms.
      My last posting (and methods) should be clarified.  Everything I post is
not always an OED "antedate."  Some citations illustrate usage, and some are
new terms to the OED.  I always check the OED at the library, but don't always
have it with me when I post in these late hours.
     "Man in the street" goes back to 1831 in OED, but I'm making a note of it
in reference to "man in The Street" (i.e., Wall Street).  The first answering
"set" is not an answering "machine," but c'mon.  "Stick a fork in him--he's
done" is not an OED antedate because it's not in OED, but was posted here as a
possible new entry.  The RHHDAS, of course, is not up to "S."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Mar 1998 08:31:25 -0800
From:    Grant Smith <gsmith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EWU.EDU>
Subject: Tom Clark memorial

Memorial services for Thomas L. Clark, a past president of ADS, will be
held next Monday, 3/9, at UNLV in Artemis Ham Concert Hall, 7:00-9:00 pm.
Speakers will include the university president and Chris Hutchins of their
English Department.

In speaking with me Monday night, Jean Clark said that Tom believed
strongly in the value of scholarly societies to our culture, and for this
reason, she would like someone from ADS, DSNA, ANS, or some other learned
society to which Tom belonged to be there and maybe say a few words as
well.

If anyone is able to be there, please call the Department of English,
702-895-3533, and leave a message.

Memorial contributions should be made out to "UNLV Foundation" for the
"Thomas L. Clark Memorial Library Fund" and mailed to

UNLV Foundation
4505 Maryland Parkway
Las Vegas, NV  89154-1006


Grant W. Smith
Eastern Washington University
509-359-6023

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:23:56 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: Re: Rearend/seat (was Re: Butt (was Re: thong))

RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM> writes:

>>>
I can't quite get used to "We're gonna kick butt!" myself.
<<<

I'm glad that what I hear from my kids is this much more often than "... kick
 ass".

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Mar 1998 12:47:34 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: dialectal loanwords - mebos

On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:51:47 +0900 Daniel Long <dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP>
 wrote:
>>>
But I have a question about a Japanese borrowing that may show regional
 variation within the English world.  OED2 has
the following entry for *mebos*.  Considering the devoicing processes of high
 vowels in Japanese, their story here
makes perfect sense.  My question is just this: Is this word known and used in
 South African English or it just some
obscure thing those wonderful and wacky UK lexicographers dug up? There must be
 some South Africans on the list!

        [...]
mebos (_______, Afrikaans _______). S. Afr. Also meebos.
[Afrikaans, prob. ad. Jap. umeboshi, a dried, preserved plum.]
A confection made from apricots dried, flattened or pulped, and preserved in
 salt and sugar.

<<<
(Sorry for the delay in answering. I've been sick since Friday and just got back
 to work today.)

Well, I'm not S.African, but I remember very well from my childhood in the 50s a
 song by the S.African duo Marais and
Miranda on some records we had:

        Auntie Mina's cooking, cooking the mebos,
        Oh, Auntie Mina's cooking the mebos syrup now.

        From the sugar that costs, ah, but tuppence the pound
        And the ripe apricots that have dropped to the ground
        Auntie Mina can cook mebos syrup so sweet
        That the folks come for miles just to eat!

This confused me for a long time, since I (understandably, I think) heard the
 phrase as "maple syrup", which I knew
wasn't made from apricots! Eventually I either read about mebos or heard about
 it from one of the various S.Africans I
have met in adult life. (I also heard "come for miles" as "come from Mars", till
 I figured that one out, which may give you a
clue about my age and interests at the time.)

I don't know if the song was originally in English or Afrikaans, in which latter
 case it may be their own translation.

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Mar 1998 13:30:03 -0500
From:    Kate Polzin <kpolzin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IREX.ORG>
Subject: US/NIS Curriculum Development Exchange Program

*Announcement reflects extended application deadline: March 23, 1998*

US/NIS CURRICULUM DEVELOPMENT EXCHANGE PROGRAM

The International Research & Exchanges Board is currently
accepting applications for the United States Information Agency
Curriculum Development Exchange Program (CDEP). CDEP is a two-way
exchange designed to foster democratization and educational reform in
the New Independent States (NIS) through the provision of four-month
consultations and curricula development programs to educators and
advanced graduate students in the humanities and social sciences from
the United States or Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia,
Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, the Russian Federation, Ukraine, and
Uzbekistan.

CDEP participants are affiliated with host universities in the United
States or the NIS, and participate in graduate seminars concerning
methodology and content of their specific fields of study, consult
with department faculty on course design and teaching materials, and
lead part of graduate or undergraduate courses to advance their own
teaching skills.

*****************************************************
Opportunities for US Educators and Advanced Graduate Students:
*****************************************************
Eligible candidates are US citizens affiliated with a college or
university as a faculty member or doctoral candidate; able to
function successfully in Russian or other NIS language; experienced in
designing and revising curricula in their academic discipline; and
able to participate during fall 1998.  Grant provisions include
round-trip travel to NIS host institution, supplemental medical
insurance, pre-arranged housing, living stipend and limited allowance
for teaching materials. A limited number of grants are available for
short-term consulting trips (please inquire regarding eligibility).

****************************************************
Opportunities for US Host Institutions
*****************************************************
NIS educators and advanced graduate students have already
been selected through an open competition for the Curriculum
Development Exchange Program.  Accredited colleges and universities
are invited to apply to host these participants for one semester
during fall 1998.  NIS participants' travel and living expenses are
paid; participants also receive medical insurance and allowances for
professional development activities and teaching materials.  Host
institutions are required to allow participants to observe graduate
level pedagogy or field specific courses, appoint an appropriate
faculty member as a mentor, and provide training in and access to
email and the Internet.

The extended deadline for US participant and US host applications is
March 23, 1998.  Application materials, guidelines, and
award criteria are available via the IREX website at
http://www.irex.org/grants/cdep/. For further information regarding
the Curriculum Development Exchange Program, please contact IREX at
(202) 628-8188 or irex[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]irex.org.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Mar 1998 14:20:50 -0500
From:    Carrie Crockett <crocketc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU>
Subject: mrs./ms./miss

Incidentally, in Memphis we pronounce mrs., ms., and miss all as miss,
not miz.


Carrie Leigh Crockett
Sociolinguistics, Georgetown
crocketc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 4 Mar 1998 15:36:53 EST
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Tom Clark memorial

In a message dated 3/4/98 11:36:40 AM, you wrote:

<<Memorial services for Thomas L. Clark, a past president of ADS, will be
held next Monday, 3/9, at UNLV in Artemis Ham Concert Hall, 7:00-9:00 pm.
Speakers will include the university president and Chris Hutchins of their
English Department.

In speaking with me Monday night, Jean Clark said that Tom believed
strongly in the value of scholarly societies to our culture, and for this
reason, she would like someone from ADS, DSNA, ANS, or some other learned
society to which Tom belonged to be there and maybe say a few words as
well.

If anyone is able to be there, please call the Department of English,
702-895-3533, and leave a message.

Memorial contributions should be made out to "UNLV Foundation" for the
"Thomas L. Clark Memorial Library Fund" and mailed to

UNLV Foundation
4505 Maryland Parkway
Las Vegas, NV  89154-1006


Grant W. Smith
Eastern Washington University
509-359-6023>>

I can't be there, but one of my former students, John Bowers, is the chair of
the English Department at UNLV; if no one from ADS can make it to the memorial
service, I could ask John if he would be willing to read a short statement on
behalf of ADS (or see that one is read)--all we need is to decide who will
write it. For myself, Tom's loss is not just professional, but personal. Not
only did he contribute greatly to our field, he was also a kind and thoughtful
colleague. Indeed, my last message from Tom--less than a month ago--had no
purpose other than to tell me something that made me fell really good and
proud about myself. How like Tom, even late into his last illness, to perform
a kindness for an acquaintance on the other side of the continent.

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Mar 1998 to 4 Mar 1998
**********************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/4/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 2 Mar 1998 to 3 Mar 1998               98-03-04 00:00:10
This message contains more text than QuickMail can display. The entire message
 has been enclosed as a file.

There are 22 messages totalling 942 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Religious/spiritual (Was Re: Semantic distinc. betw. "crick" and "creek"?
  2. Zori and the lost generation (LONG)
  3. Mellon Grant (2)
  4. Business terms (hot potato, dead cat, copper) (2)
  5. Semantic distinc. betw. "crick" and "creek"?
  6. Religious/spiritual (and opinions/judgments)
  7. Man in the Street (Was Re: Business terms (hot potato, dead cat, copper))
  8. "elevator bar" (3)
  9. A new use of Ms? anecdotal! (3)
 10. RE>"elevator bar"
 11. A New Use of Ms?
 12. Watch your judgment
 13. "Long Bullets"
 14. Man in the Street (Was Re: Business terms (hot potato,              dead
     cat, copper))
 15. ERIC website
 16. zori redux

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:16:27 -0500
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Religious/spiritual (Was Re: Semantic distinc. betw. "crick" and
         "creek"?

At 12:54 PM 3/2/98 -0500, "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu> wrote:
>Greg noted:
>
>> Over the years, when the subject of religion comes up in some
>> connection, students in my classes seem to make very decided
>> distinctions between "religious" and "spiritual." But each of them seems
>> to have made up a somewhat different version of the distinction....
>
>I have a very decided distinction between those two words. To me,
>"religious" connotes "institutional," while "spiritual" does not. I.e.,
>you are religious if you go to church, observe the practices of your
>religion, etc. You may be spiritual and not religious -- certainly you can
>be religious and not at all spiritual.
>
>So what other distinctions do your students make, Greg?
>

Well, I'm not sure this is necessarily US-specific, but quickly -- Many of
the distinctions that seem to be made between these two words, in my
admittedly limited experience, float around the institutional/individual
distinction you mention. But I think that to account for all such usages
that I've seen, there's a more basic distinction than that, and a greater
variety of details. Everyone that I've run into so far who has made a strong
distinction between the two words, rather than seeing them as related or
overlapping, has tended to see "religious" as more negative and "spiritual"
as more positive.

So it really seems, functionally, to be roughly the distinction between
"bad" and "good." ("I don't like it" vs. "I do like it.") Since
individualism has become ever more important as a cultural value since the
onset of modernity, those looking to find more individualized versions of
religion or spirituality or whatever one calls these phenomena will tend to
see individualistic versions as good/positive and institutional ones (to the
extent we individualists may therefore see them as alienating) as
one-size-fits-all and thus bad. I by the way am NOT taking any position on
these matters; I'm just trying to analyze a usage I have noticed. In fact, I
just noticed in writing this that OED's entry for "spiritual" has lots of
definitions that overlap, some quite strongly and explicitly, with "religious."

I don't have time to go into the whole array of different kinds of traits
that get attached to the positive "spiritual" vs. pejorative "religion"
distinction, but they always seem to go back to an idea that religion is
external and traditional and doesn't have anything to do with the user of
the term's positive values, while the spiritual is used for anything deeply
felt and seen as authentic. But the details of (A) what is seen as external,
irrelevant culture and (B) what is seen as authentic vary a good deal from
speaker to speaker. I saw a quote in catching up on the Sunday New York
Times this evening, about people who choose to go to coffeehouses rather
than bars where alcohol is served: "They're a little more health conscious,
a little more spiritual, more into themselves versus a crazy social scene."
I.e., "spiritual" seems to have become a pretty wide net, especially when
one recalls that the etymology of "spiritual" implies that it has to do with
nonmaterial rather than material things, and many folks who use the word in
the spiritual-as-against-religious sense either actively disbelieve in a
nomaterial aspect of reality or are agnostic about it.

Not being possessed of especially strong opinions on these matters, I don't
always resonate, myself, with the adamance individuals often exhibit in
asserting their particular sense of the distinction against others in a
class where the topic comes up, usually in the course of discussing some
literary or philosophical document. Isn't there that couplet in the Essay on
Criticism that goes something like:

Tis with opinions as with watches, none
runs quite the same, yet each believes his own.

Best,

Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Mar 1998 00:09:42 -0600
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Zori and the lost generation (LONG)

This message originally went off-list to Norman Roberts.  On reflection,
I think the phenomenon I cite after two paragraphs on zori/flip-flops/
thongs/go-aheads/beach shoes could stand more general notice.

====  Forwarded message, with interpolated translations ===========

Your note on zori closely parallels my US Army experience in 1951-53.  I
didn't see zori until shipped to FECOM ( = Far East Command) in October
52, but they were in fairly common use at the Camp Drake "repple
depple".  ( = army depot for processing replacement troops.)  They
seemed to grow more and more common among US soldiers in Korea through
1953, usually as souvenirs of five-day R & R's.  ( = rest and recreation
leaves in Japan.)

When I left for the states late in October, 53 they were ubiquitous
among GI's stationed in Japan.  They were widely available, and called
"zori", in Chicago by 54. That could be due, in part, to the presence of
a large Chicago community of people whose ancestors came from Japan.
(Many of them came to Chicago during or shortly after World War II, an
aftermath of their forced evacuation from the West Coast in 1942.)

What's interesting is that chasing this word once more demonstrates a
phenomenon not apparent to anyone who didn't happen to be born during
Hoover's presidency (and, perhaps, those born in the first year or two
of FDR's first term).  That phenomenon is the utter invisibility of our
whole age cohort.

Remember when Viet Nam veterans used to say that "nobody gave us any
parades when we came home"?  Korean War veterans, among ourselves, used
to answer that with "Homecoming parade?  Hell, nobody noticed we were
gone!"

A much higher percentage of our age grade served in the military during
the Korean War than those who served in the Viet Nam era.  In fact,
because we were born during the time of the lowest birth rate in U.S.
history, a higher percentage of us "Hoover babies" were in the military
during the Korean War than had served in World War II. (At the height of
the Korean War, more than six million of us were in the service.  That's
not too far from the total in the service during most of World War II.
But WWII servicemen, mostly age 19 through 39 when inducted, represented
the birth cohort born between, roughly, 1904 or 1905 and about 1927: in
round numbers, a 20-year spread.  Korean War servicemen came mainly from
about a 5-year spread of birth dates.)

Our absence for military service went unnoticed because we were a
minority in a world full of World War II vets.  Just as the "Hoover
babies" were finishing high school, colleges and universities were
swamped with a 20-year backlog of WWII vets on the GI Bill.  Their view
of returning to civilian life included the music of 1940, a continuation
of the popular culture of 1940, even the movie stars and movie genres of
1940.  Their influence on the student scene waned by around 1950, but
that's when lots of us started to go into the service.

Which is why people play nostalgia games about the mid-1950's, or about
the pre-war period, but never about 1950 plus or minus three years or
so.   When our fads, our music, and our crochets might have been a
palpable presence in any other generation, they never had a chance to
come into being behind the screen of nostalgia for 1940. We lived in
somebody else's epoch, and were always outnumbered there. We've been
invisible ever since.  We even got into the family game at just about
the end of the baby boom, so the boomers didn't learn about our epoch
from parents like us, either.

(Short illustration, meaningful only to our cohort:  What did we dance
to in 1945-47?  Largely, Benny Goodman and Artie Shaw and Tommy Dorsey
recordings originally made in 1939-41.  Cesar Petrillo's two-year
recording ban for members of the Musician's Union didn't help get us any
replacements, either.  When rock'n'roll made its debut for the U.S. in
general, we were past the age of participating in musical fads.)

For others in our invisible generation, I'd add this. I still haven't
figured out what's the matter with jukeboxes that don't play "She ain't
got no yo-yo". And who, today, would know enough to correct me by saying
"Do you mean 'Shina-no yoru'?"  ( = "China night", title of a song in a
Japanese movie of the 1930's which had a nostalgic revival in the early
1950's.) Nobody but us even knows that I stole that line from  the "When
we get back home" cartoons that starred "Baby-san".

(Norman's response to the last paragraph was "Do you remember the 'Rice
Paddy Ranger' and his faithful companion 'Honto?'"  The approriate
answer would be "Wassamatter you, G.I. ?")

There still are millions of us around.  We're still invisible.  And, to
us, it's hard to realize that all the folks who only know of our
existence through watching M*A*S*H reruns would see anything strange in
the word "zori".

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Mar 1998 01:35:06 EST
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Mellon Grant

First, I'd type in "slang" and "etymology" and "jargon" and "dialect."  Not
only do you get these articles, but you get relevant parts of otherwise
unrelated articles.  Only with a computer can you get that sentence or
paragraph that really matters.

I looked over the JSTOR journals, and they're somewhat dull.  "Sooner" and
"Boomer" should be in a "history" periodical, and I'm interested in that.  As
you know, I'm doing business words, and there are tons to look up, from "P/E
ratio" to "right to work" to "closed shop" to "depression mentality" to "dead-
cat bounce" to "Wobblies" to "walks like a duck."  For the political journals,
I'd get SAFIRE'S NEW POLITICAL DICTIONARY and re-check every entry.

I've decided to go through the entire WALL STREET JOURNAL.  Is there any plan
to computerize the back issues of that as well?  (It'll probably happen after
I spend a year on it.)

--Barry Popik

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Mar 1998 03:12:13 EST
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Business terms (hot potato, dead cat, copper)

(Mellon Grant response went to this list by accident.  Sorry.)

     THE WALL STREET JOURNAL is one publication that Peter Tamony didn't read
extensively.  I don't think Jonathan Lighter has a single citation from it!
     It's very easy to go through (the first page and the editorial page are
the most important).  It has all the business terms from Wall Street and
Washington, of course.  The headlines and subheads for the stories and
editorials use the latest buzzwords.  The 90 years (up to Nexis) might seem
imposing, but I can go through a year's worth in about a day, so we're talking
only three months.
     Here are some antedates:

HOT POTATO
     The RHHDAS has this from 1950.  The WSJ, 1 April 1935 (I was looking for
"boondoggle"), pg. 3, col. 3, has "One of the favorite sports among the new
deal agencies is 'getting rid of the hot potato' as one new dealer calls it.
This is passing the buck, or putting it more bluntly, dodging
responsibilities. (...)  One chic bit of 'hot potato' passing is..."

STICK A FORK IN HIM--HE'S DONE
     I saw this headline recently in the New York Post and posted it here.  I
haven't seen it scholarly recorded.  It's not new!  The WSJ, 6 August 1957,
pg. 10, col. 6, has "'He threw that last guy a nothing ball,' the catcher
says, cautiously.  'Okay,' says the manager, 'Stick a fork in him.  He's
done.'  The manager waves to the bullpen, and a new pitcher begins a long walk
into the game. (...) --ROGER KAHN in "The American Scholar," Summer 1957

MAN IN THE STREET
     Was this phrase popularized by Wall Street?  The WSJ, 21 March 1935, pg.
3, col. 1, has "Important Books for Men in 'The Street.'"  (This was before
they had brokers who were women.)

DEAD CAT
     There is the famously sick "dead-cat bounce," and Safire's column last
week showed an Asian version--the "dead-tiger bounce."  The WSJ, 11 March
1935, pg. 1, col. 3, "Washington Letter...Dead Cat/ Speeding the Parting
Guest," has "S. Clay Williams, now walking out of the NRA front door following
General Johnson, is the recipient of another dead cat, the traditional gift
for recovery administrators."

THE BRUTAL USE OF MONEY
     This is in the WSJ, 22 January 1935, pg. 2, col. 4:  "Brutal Use of
Money/ WASHINGTON--For a great many years a favorite theme of politcal
demagogues has been the 'vast power of great wealth.'  Often it has been their
sole appeal, and a considerable number owe their places in public life to the
eloquence and force with which it has been made.  A very popular phrase among
them is 'the brutal use of money.'"

DEPRESSION MENTALITY
     A WSJ editorial, "The Depression Mentality," is on 28 March 1957, pg. 12,
cols. 1-2:  "After World War II, as most people now recognize, the Government
planners badly misgauged (sic) the economic future.  They expected depression;
they got boom.  (...)  Imbued with what has been called the 'depression
mentality'..."

COPPER
     The RHHDAS has this, but not from Wall Street.  I'll probably see it
again.  The WSJ, 26 April 1935, pg. 4, col. 6 has "to 'copper' their
operations--that is, to do the opposite."

"RIGHT TO WORK" LAWS
     OED has a November 1958 citation.  "'Right to Work' Laws" is the title of
a WSJ editorial, 12 February 1957, pg. 10, cols. 1-2.  I'll find it even
earlier.

SPEED READING
     OED has "speed-read" from 1960 and "speed-readers" from 1965.  A front-
page WSJ article on 9 January 1957 was "Speedy Reading."

SUBLIMINAL ADVERTISING
    The OED has 18 September 1957.  The WSJ did a front-page article on
Subliminal Projection on 13 September 1957, pg. 1, col. 4, and an editorial
"Subliminal Advertising" 17 September 1957, pg. 12, col. 1.

ANSWERING MACHINE
     OED has "answering machine" from 1961.  The WSJ, 4 March 1957, pg. 1,
col. 4, has "Automatic Answerers Sell Swiftly, Tackle New Telephone Tasks/
Machines Push Movies, Food and Pepsi-Cola, Offer Aid To Anglers and
Investors."  According to the article, "The automatic telephone answering set
was invented back in 1938 by a tall, pipe-puffing Milwaukee bachelor named
Joseph J. Zimmermann who designed it to answer unattended telephones and
accordingly dubbed it the 'Electronic Secretary.'"

ECONOMY CARS
     A WSJ article on 10 April 1957, pg. 1, col. 1, is "Economy Cars/ Europe's
Tiny Autos Face Big Test as More Makers Invade U. S."  These cars included
"West Germany's Volkswagen and its beetle-like relatives."

UP TICK
     OED has "up tick" from 1970.  A WSJ article, 26 March 1957, pg. 1, col.
4, is "New Glossary Offers 'Up Tick' Low-Down But Avoids 'Crashes'/ Stock
Exchange Lexicon Pins Down Financial Jargon, Skips Some Touchy Terms."  The
book, called THE LANGUAGE OF INVESTING, is not in the bibliography to Kathleen
Odean's Wall Street Slang book.  A term as basic as "G.T.C." (good 'til
canceled) is recorded practically nowhere.

     I'll find much more.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Mar 1998 06:36:31 -0500
From:    Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mellon Grant

Dow Jones News/Retrieval has the full text of the Wall Street Journal
since  1984.  Nexis, I believe, has abstracts of the WSJ going back to the
late 1960s, but abstracts would not be of too much utility for the purpose
you have in mind.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
 Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
 Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Mar 1998 07:18:36 -0500
From:    Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Business terms (hot potato, dead cat, copper)

On Tue, 3 Mar 1998, Bapopik wrote:

> Washington, of course.  The headlines and subheads for the stories and
> editorials use the latest buzzwords.  The 90 years (up to Nexis) might seem

Let me amend my last message.  If interesting terms appear in headlines
and subheads, then the abstracts on Nexis going back to the late 1960s
might well be useful for tracing word-usages.  Even if terms appear in the
body of the Wall Street Journal articles rather than in headlines, the
abstracts probably track the language of the stories pretty well and might
pick up interesting terms.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
 Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
 Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 3 Mar 1998 08:31:38 -0500
From:    Patrick Courts <courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AIT.FREDONIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Semantic distinc. betw. "crick" and "creek"?

Greg, I didn't misunderstand you and didn't think you were suggesting only
poorly educated people would make the distinction.  But let me describe
where I hear the distinction explained.  In a class I teach on Language and
literacy, one section of the course deals with dialect.  When students are
talking about differences they have noted in their own experience, someone
inevitably brings up the pronunciation of creek/crick.  When I ask if there
is any difference between the meaning of the 2 pronunciations, about 1/3 of
the class, normally those who come from rural areas, not the difference in
size between the larger creek and smaller crick.  They normally not the
difference with surprise that everyone doesn't know it.

At 11:43 PM 3/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 03:26 PM 3/2/98 -0500, "Patrick L. Courts" <courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AIT.FREDONIA.EDU>
wrote:
>>Greg, Most of the people whom I know to distinguish between "crick" and
>>"creek" are actually quite well educated.
>>
>
>So gosh, if the distinction is well established, how did DARE miss it? The
>original posting said DARE and Joan Hall have no documentation on the
>distinction. If your sense is that well educated folks make the distinction,
>and it doesn't seem to show up in the historical record (DARE, OED), could
>it be a case of just the kind of "folk semantics" (i.e., the rationalizing
>creation of distinctions between two o
======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/3/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 1 Mar 1998 to 2 Mar 1998               98-03-03 00:01:11
This message contains more text than QuickMail can display. The entire message
 has been enclosed as a file.

There are 18 messages totalling 583 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Zori redux [long] (2)
  2. Semantic distinc. betw. "crick" and "creek"? (9)
  3. Dialect Films Request
  4. Spelling Bee (minor correction)
  5. Mellon Grant (2)
  6. A new use of Ms? (2)
  7. Welp vs. Well

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Mar 1998 08:26:10 -0500
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Zori redux [long]

At 11:23 AM 3/1/98 -1000, Norman Roberts <nroberts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAWAII.EDU> wrote:
>About the spring of 1961 I first heard the term "go aheads" applied. The
>term made wonderful sense, but I never used it.  "Flip flops" came much
>later, probably during the seventies.
>

Living in southern Michigan as a child till I moved out of the US in Dec.
1971, I can attest to "thong sandals" and "flip-flops" as the only terms I
heard used in that locale for the beach/poolside footwear in question. I'm
not sure how far back those terms go before 1971 in that part of the
country, but they certainly go back to at least the late 60s. "Zoris" or
"Go-aheads"? -- As they say in New York: Fuhgedduhboudit. Never heard those
terms till this discussion, though I must admit to not hanging out on
beaches much since the early 70s, certainly not with beach-specific apparel.

Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Mar 1998 11:32:11 -0500
From:    Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>
Subject: Semantic distinc. betw. "crick" and "creek"?

A correspondent wrote in about an alleged semantic distinction
between "crick" and "creek." This writer, who is from an unspecified
but "rural" part of the country, claims that he uses both pronunciations,
but that a "crick" was smaller than a "creek." He states that he has
had a long-running disagreement with his wife about this, and he recently
found someone else who makes this distinction. DARE doesn't show any
semantic distinction, and Joan Hall isn't otherwise aware of any.

Is this distinction familiar to anyone on the list?

Jesse Sheidlower
Random House Reference
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Mar 1997 10:59:46 -0600
From:    Thomas Creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>
Subject: Re: Semantic distinc. betw. "crick" and "creek"?

Not in connection with a running stream,  but I never heard anyone
complaining about having a creek in his neck.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 2 Mar 1997 11:05:26 -0600
From:    Thomas Creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>
Subject: Re: Zori redux [long]

I first encountered _zori_ in about 1950 when a friend of mind,
returning from Japan, made me a present of a pair of , I believe,
authentic woven straw  _zoris_ (pl), as he and I both referred to them,
along with a pair of _tabis_, a sock- or spat-like garment to be worn
with the zoris on more formal occasions.  The tabis had a pocket for the
big toe and  a separate pocket for the remaining four, so that they
could be worn while wearing zoris.

For many years thereafter, my Chicago friends and family wore zoris,
locally available in the Chicago area, and with plastic or rubber soles,
to the beach, around the house, and even doing local shopping.

So, if _zori_ is actually a California regionalism, I and my friends and
family represent a Middlewestern anomaly.  I am not sure, but I believe
the footwear was sometimes advertised in the Chicago area as zoris, or
ar least so identified on signage in the stores, such as Walgreen
drugstores, where they were mass-marketed in the early fifties.

If there were ads, as I think there were, or references to zoris in
print at that time,, they were  pre-Nexis and would not show up in your
searches.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:44:42 -0500
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Semantic distinc. betw. "crick" and "creek"?

At 11:32 AM 3/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>A correspondent wrote in about an alleged semantic distinction
>between "crick" and "creek." This writer, who is from an unspecified
>but "rural" part of the country, claims that he uses both pronunciations,
>but that a "crick" was smaller than a "creek." He states that he has
>had a long-running disagreement with his wife about this, and he recently
>found someone else who makes this distinction. DARE doesn't show any
>semantic distinction, and Joan Hall isn't otherwise aware of any.
>
>Is this distinction familiar to anyone on the list?
>
>Jesse Sheidlower
>Random House Reference
><jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>
>

I haven't ever heard such a distinction made in rural places where I've
spent time, which in itself means nothing. But prima facie I would wonder if
this distinction reflects well-established usage. Where there are two words
that obviously seem phonetically and/or semantically related, individuals
often try to rationalize the existence of both by positing improvised
distinctions. Since "crick" is seen as more uneducated or rural than
"creek," it would not be surprising that someone would decide that a "crick"
must be a smaller, more local, more rural stream than a creek. I.e., a
"possible folk-semantics" yellow-light is probably in order -- which, given
the skeptical but open-minded tone of the query, has already clicked on in
JS's mind.

Over the years, when the subject of religion comes up in some connection,
students in my classes seem to make very decided distinctions between
"religious" and "spiritual." But each of them seems to have made up a
somewhat different version of the distinction....

Maybe that guy's wife is right. And perhaps not for the first time! I bet
they also disagree about how to use the stick and clutch in a manual-tran
car....

But then again, given people's propensity for "rationalizing," maybe a
crick/creek "distinction" has been independently created by more than one
speaker....

FWIW, aside from DARE which is mentioned above, OED2 creek n.1 mentions
"creek" and "crick" as simply locally varying pronunciations, citing a
somewhat similar variation between peak and pike n.2, the latter as UK
"northern." I.e., the creek/crick sound and spelling variation maybe go back
to a point long before any (in this case, 20th-cent.) evidence for a
semantic distinction.

But, maybe there's more evidence out there....

Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Mar 1998 12:54:53 -0500
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Re: Semantic distinc. betw. "crick" and "creek"?

Greg noted:

> Over the years, when the subject of religion comes up in some
> connection, students in my classes seem to make very decided
> distinctions between "religious" and "spiritual." But each of them seems
> to have made up a somewhat different version of the distinction....

I have a very decided distinction between those two words. To me,
"religious" connotes "institutional," while "spiritual" does not. I.e.,
you are religious if you go to church, observe the practices of your
religion, etc. You may be spiritual and not religious -- certainly you can
be religious and not at all spiritual.

So what other distinctions do your students make, Greg?

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Mar 1998 13:39:12 -0500
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Dialect Films Request

As part of a textbook I am writing, I envision a chapter structured thus:

Special Cases:  Pennsylvania Dutch, Louisiana Creole, Ocracoke, Charleston,
                Va. Piedmont; Hawaiian English

I am teaching a class right now in which I want to play videotapes of as
many of these varieties as possible. I have identified snippets from
American Tongues, I have Yeah You Rite, and I am about to order the
Ocracoke video. Where can I get something illustating Chrleston, the Va.
Piedmont, and Hawaiian English? Reply privately if you want to -- I'll
post a summary.

BTW, if you don't have Yeah You Rite, here's the skinny (it's from the
AT folks):

-----
TITLE        Yeah you rite! [[videorecording] /]
PUBLISHED    New York, NY : Cinema Guild, 1985.
CALL NUMBER  PE2845.N4Y4
DESCRIPTION  1 videocassette (29 min.) : sd., col. ; 1/2 in.
NOTE         VHS format. * Looks at the linguistic diversity of New
Orleans in this amusing study of the ways accent and dialect identify and
influence the people who use them. Examples from vendors, children's
games, social occasions, and people on the street illustrate their
language as an indicator of social and economic rank, race, and
neighborhood.
RELATED AUTHOR Center for New American Media. * Cinema Guild.
SUBJECT      English language --Social aspects --Louisiana --New Orleans.
* Speech and social status --Louisiana --New Orleans. * New
Orleans (La.) --Social life and customs.
-----

Thanks,
Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Mar 1998 14:32:49 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Spelling Bee (minor correction)

    A further comment (not a correction) on the 1875 choice:  PDQ doesn't
    seem "trivial" to me (or to PDQ Bach, presumably).  My mother used this
    expression all her life (d. 1994), along with "SOL"; have others also
    heard or used these euphemistic phrases?

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:14:16 -0500
From:    "Patrick L. Courts" <courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AIT.FREDONIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Semantic distinc. betw. "crick" and "creek"?

Most of the student I teach from rural areas (Western NY and Central NY)
distinguish the difference in size between the smaller "crick" and larger
"creek"; many also use different pronunciations for each.  Some of folks I
knew from Southeastern Ohio also distinguished both semantically and
phonetically.  dInIs does, don't you dInIs?

At 11:32 AM 3/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>A correspondent wrote in about an alleged semantic distinction
>between "crick" and "creek." This writer, who is from an unspecified
>but "rural" part of the country, claims that he uses both pronunciations,
>but that a "crick" was smaller than a "creek." He states that he has
>had a long-running disagreement with his wife about this, and he recently
>found someone else who makes this distinction. DARE doesn't show any
>semantic distinction, and Joan Hall isn't otherwise aware of any.
>
>Is this distinction familiar to anyone on the list?
>
>Jesse Sheidlower
>Random House Reference
><jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>
>

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:26:20 -0500
From:    "Patrick L. Courts" <courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AIT.FREDONIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Semantic distinc. betw. "crick" and "creek"?

Greg, Most of the people whom I know to distinguish between "crick" and
"creek" are actually quite well educated.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Mar 1998 15:46:00 -0500
From:    "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Semantic distinc. betw. "crick" and "creek"?

Nope Pat,

dInIs has only 'creek.' I think you are remembering the fact that I have
native 'greazy' and a later-learned 'greasy' for which I have the semantic
distinction 'dirty, big-time grease' for the first and light delicate stuff
for the latter. But, in fact, I don't like 'greasy' (or the verb 'grease')
for the lighter stuff. Instead of the incorrect 's' pronunciations of these
words, I would usually say 'oily' (and 'oil'). (By the way, I have 'all'
for 'oil' but no such change in the diphthong for 'oily' I just realized. I
am sure the vocalized 'l' in the former is to blame.)

dInIs

>Most of the student I teach from rural areas (Western NY and Central NY)
>distinguish the difference in size between the smaller "crick" and larger
>"creek"; many also use different pronunciations for each.  Some of folks I
>knew from Southeastern Ohio also distinguished both semantically and
>phonetically.  dInIs does, don't you dInIs?
>
>At 11:32 AM 3/2/98 -0500, you wrote:
>>A correspondent wrote in about an alleged semantic distinction
>>between "crick" and "creek." This writer, who is from an unspecified
>>but "rural" part of the country, claims that he uses both pronunciations,
>>but that a "crick" was smaller than a "creek." He states that he has
>>had a long-running disagreement with his wife about this, and he recently
>>found someone else who makes this distinction. DARE doesn't show any
>>semantic distinction, and Joan Hall isn't otherwise aware of any.
>>
>>Is this distinction familiar to anyone on the list?
>>
>>Jesse Sheidlower
>>Random House Reference
>><jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>
>>

Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:37:51 -0500
From:    Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Mellon Grant

I have recently received a grant from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation for
research utilizing the JSTOR electronic journal archive, which allows
users to search journals going back as far as 1884, to find early uses of
words and phrases.  I would welcome suggestions of interesting terms to
investigate.  The terms should be of a sort likely to occur in
economics, political science, history, sociology, education,
Asian studies, philosophy, mathematics, or ecology journals.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
 Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
 Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Mar 1998 16:32:40 -0600
From:    Dennis Baron <debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Mellon Grant

Fred,


If you come across any discussions of gender neutral, or epicene pronouns, let
 me know. I still maintain a database of forms. There was some discussion of
 them in the 1880s in literary journals in the US, but what I've found was
 through sheer luck, as the indexing is not very thorough, and certainly wasn't
 electronic.


Dennis


At 04:37 PM 3/2/98 -0500, you wrote:

>I have recently received a grant from the Andrew W. Mellon Foundation for

>research utilizing the JSTOR electronic journal archive, which allows

>users to search journals going back as far as 1884, to find early uses of

>words and phrases.  I would welcome suggestions of interesting terms to

>investigate.  The terms should be of a sort likely to occur in

>economics, political science, history, sociology, education,

>Asian studies, philosophy, mathematics, or ecology journals.

>

>

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)

> Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD

>   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES

> Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998

> e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2

>----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

>

Dennis Baron, Acting Head       <italic>phone: </italic>217-333-2390

Department of English           <italic>fax: </italic>217-333-4321

University of Illinois          <italic>email: </italic>debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu

608 S. Wright Street            http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron

Urbana, IL 61801

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Mar 1998 17:51:44 -0500
From:    Alan Baragona <baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU>
Subject: A new use of Ms?

Okay, this is a new one on me.  In a research report on gender in
language, a female exchange student from Texas A&M who is also a native
Texan wrote: "Something that is normal for my generation, such as the
marital status title Ms., is not normal for my mother's generation.
Until you're married, you should be identified as Miss, and if you are
homosexual or divorced, you should be identified as Ms."

We're on Spring Break now, so I won't be able to ask her about it until
next week, but I wonder if anyone out there, especially anyone in Texas,
is familiar with a usage development like this?  I've seen signs that in
common usage "Ms." is simply replacing "Miss" and thus losing its
initial purpose as "Mrs." has made a comeback (if it was ever really
gone), but I've never seen a distinction like this one.  Is this a
fantasy that this girl has concocted, or are there really groups out
there who use Ms. only for gays and divorcees (no Fred Astaire pun
intended)?

Alan B.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Mar 1998 18:20:29 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: Welp vs. Well

There's a commercial running in the NYC metro area for Hofstra University that's
 cracking me up.

In summary, it has has a kid kind of stuttering along saying something like "I,
 uh, well, you know..." over and over.

Then the basso-voiced announcer tubas (well, he doesn't "trumpet," does he? Not
 with a deep voice. Maybe he "sousaphones"?) about how Hofstra can get you
 talking like a smart person in no time.

Then the kid says as if to prove how articulate he is (no typo here): "Welp, it
 works like this..."

This is not the first person or the first time I've heard "welp" instead of 
 "well." I do it myself, on purpose, but I really explode that "p." The kid's
 "p" was a little more glottal.

Whaddya know about this?

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:21:18 -0500
From:    "Jeutonne P. Brewer" <jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: Semantic distinc. betw. "crick" and "creek"?

On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Jesse T Sheidlower wrote:

> A correspondent wrote in about an alleged semantic distinction
> between "crick" and "creek." This writer, who is from an unspecified
> but "rural" part of the country, claims that he uses both pronunciations,
> but that a "crick" was smaller than a "creek." He states that he has
> had a long-running disagreement with his wife about this, and he recently
> found someone else who makes this distinction. DARE doesn't show any
> semantic distinction, and Joan Hall isn't otherwise aware of any.
>
> Is this distinction familiar to anyone on the list?

As an Okie I I first learned "crick" and in school I learned "creek."
We went down to the same "crick" in wheat field country--Ames, OK about
30 miles south of Enid where I was born--even when we later learned
to say "creek." I don't think I've ever heard a semantic distinction
based on size.

Jeutonne


**********************************************
Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor
Department of English
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
Greensboro, NC 27412
email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu
URL:   http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer
***********************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 2 Mar 1998 22:31:41 -0500
From:    "Jeutonne P. Brewer" <jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: A new use of Ms?

I learned a different use of Miss and Ms. Miss was unmarried
female, Mrs. married female, and Ms. when not sure about
marital status. I didn't have a written form for Ms. until
the 70s use of Ms. as a general title for females, regardless
of marital status. I have never heard the use of Ms. used to
contrast with Miss in the sense of homosexual vs. sing..

I came from Okla. originally but lived in Texas (panhandle -
Amarillo and Gulf coast - Houston) during most of my public
school years.

Jeutonne Brewer

On Mon, 2 Mar 1998, Alan Baragona wrote:

> Okay, this is a n
======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/2/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 28 Feb 1998 to 1 Mar 1998              98-03-02 00:01:12
There are 2 messages totalling 126 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Zori redux [long]
  2. Brooklynese

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 1 Mar 1998 11:23:18 -1000
From:    Norman Roberts <nroberts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAWAII.EDU>
Subject: Re: Zori redux [long]

jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]m-w.com wrote

>While the rest of you have gone on from huaraches and zoris to more
>elevated topics such as butt thongs, I'm still thinking about zoris.
>

>The periodical cites were marginal (_zori_: 3, _zoris_: 2).  My
>conclusion is that _zori_ is a regionalism (West Coast & Hawaii) and
>even on the West Coast it may be fading because of the lexical
>competetion.  I'm still wondering if the concept of a sandal held to
>the foot by a Y-shaped thong was a Japanese import (along with the
>word _zori_) or if the Japanese word was applied to something we
>already had (and hence is a counterexample to my claim about Japanese
>loanwords).
>

My memory is not as sound as the WEB searching, but I can recount something
of the origin and introduction of the product.  I first encountered the
rubber, foot shaped zori in late 1951.  Several veterans of the Korean War
were assigned to our unit and wore these "Japanese shower shoes" around the
barracks. Many of us state-siders wanted to get some, but they were not
available in the PX at that time.

When I was reassigned to Far East Command in December 1952, I got a pair in
the Camp Drake (Japan) PX which I took along to Korea with me.  They were
still a pretty new item, because not very many soldiers had them.  In fact,
they were new and out-landish enough to have a company order prohibiting
their use outside of the shower room.

When I was reassigned to Japan the following year, I learned the name "gomu
zoori" 'rubber slippers or sandals'.  They came in two styles:  soft rubber
foot-shaped zori and a harder rubber rectangular shaped zori.  Those of us
who weren't bothered by the Japanese name called them zori or zories;
others called them shower shoes.

When I was separated from the service in February 1955, the foot shaped
zori were available in the Camp Kilmer, NJ, PX.  However, the pair I
brought home with me to the frozen north were an unqualified novelty, a
real conversation piece.  Nobody had ever seen anything like that and
didn't know what to call them.  I continued to use the Japanese term, but
my dorm mates at the University of Maine refered to them as "funny
footgear."

In September 1958 I enrolled at the University of Hawaii to study Japanese
and discovered that zori were a popular item.  Most of the students wore
them, and they were available in sundry stores and the sundries section of
the supermarket where I bought my groceries.  The island English term was
"sleepah" or more elegantly "slippers," but in Japanese neighborhood stores
they were labled zori or gomuzori (frequently in katakana).  Both the foot
shaped and the rectangular shaped footgear were available.  I opted for the
rectangular ones because they were more durable than the others, although
it took a while to get a decent callus between your big toe and second toe.
Zories were such an ubiquitous footgear that in August, 1959, on the
occasion of the statehood celebration, there was an editorial in one of the
daily papers urging everyone to "put on shoes for statehood."  I don't
think many of us did.

In 1960 S.I Hayakawa was at UH for the summer session to teach his
introduction to general semantics.  He wrote a brief article, published in
the Honolulu Star Bulletin, concerning the large number of Japanese words
in Webster's Third, which we were still calling "the new dictionary."  His
list was between 125 and 150 words, and conspicuously absent was zori.

My sainted linguistics professor, Samuel Elbert (of Hawaiian dictionary
fame) was a consultant for Webster 3 for Asian and Pacific languages.  He
had submitted a large number of Japanese, Chinese, Hawaiian, and Portuguese
derived words of which many were not included in the final edition.  I
asked him about zori, which he had included, and he answered that he
supposed that beginning with "z" counted against it since English doesn't
like words that begin with "z."  I don't think zori made it into the desk
dictionaries before the late seventies or early eighties.  It is not in my
1969 American Heritage Dictionary, but I find it in my 1980 New World
Dictionary.

About the spring of 1961 I first heard the term "go aheads" applied. The
term made wonderful sense, but I never used it.  "Flip flops" came much
later, probably during the seventies.

Today there is quite a variety of zori in various Hawaii shops of which one
such is named "The Slipper House."  My preference is for Otafuku, the
manufacturer's name for a heavy duty zori with a half inch sole, a half
inch heel, and a pebbled upper surface which is supposed to massage your
feet while you walk.  They last a long, long time and feel good on my feet.

Zori and slipper are probably the most common terms of choice in Hawaii
although go ahead and flip flops are still heard.  They are still the most
common footgear; people wear them everywhere unless specifically told to
wear shoes.

To answer the question, I think they came with their Japanese name, which
most likely got rejected except in places like Hawaii and California where
there are large numbers of Japanese-Americans.  I have no idea whether or
not we had thong sandals before we had zori, but if we did, they could not
have been very common.

|\|

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 1 Mar 1998 19:27:54 EST
From:    Dfcoye <Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Brooklynese

William Moulton used to tell us that the famous toity toid street and "kern"
for coin, were classic examples of auditors from outside the dialect area
hearing the sounds closest to their own phonemes which in actuality were quite
different.  I thought it was pretty much accepted by linguists that the
diphthongs of 'third' and 'coin' had merged in this variety of NYC Eng.  They
both had a first element equal to the RP sound in 'third' and a high mid or
front unrounded second element.  So to outsider coin sounded like 'kern' and
'turn' sounded like 'toin'.   Free variation does the rest.

Dale Coye
The College of New Jersey

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Feb 1998 to 1 Mar 1998
***********************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (3/1/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 27 Feb 1998 to 28 Feb 1998             98-03-01 00:00:16
There are 6 messages totalling 196 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Brooklynese (3)
  2. CD-ROM Dictionaries - report
  3. Spelling Bee (minor correction)
  4. Rearend/seat (was Re: Butt (was Re: thong))

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Feb 1998 21:24:50 -0800
From:    Devon Coles <dcoles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HORIZON.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Brooklynese

>>A week or so ago, there was a comment on "Brooklynese" pronuncations of
>>'third', 'join', etc.  The initial thread lay there lifeless, not even
able
>>to aspire to b---thongness. ...
>
>Ok - thread continues.  In my youth in Brooklyn, I definitely remember our
>Jr. High School principal making announcements to the "Boys and Goyls."  I
>have no memory of the Bunker "terlet," though.  (Winthrop Jr. High,
1956-58)
>
>Rima
>
More still: my late uncle from Brooklyn always referred to his son, Gordie,
as "Goidy." Odd, it rhymed with "toidy," and I never heard him say "terlet."

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Feb 1998 19:29:36 +0900
From:    Daniel Long <dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP>
Subject: CD-ROM Dictionaries - report

Here is some information on CD-ROM English dictionaries that I have been
able to find.  I appreciate the information which was sent.  Many of
these seem to be available in MAC and Windows versions.  Thomas Creswell
told me of an article he has written which seems to be the best source
of information on the subject. =20
Danny Long

Creswell, Thomas. "American Dictionaries on CD-ROM" (review article).
_Journal
of English Linguistics_v. 24, no. 4, Dec. 96, p.358.

MWC10.  Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, (1993)10th
ed.(CD-ROM).  Merriam-Webster, Springfield, MA.

AHD3.  American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language (1992).  3rd
ed.  CD-ROM.  Houghton Mifflin, Boston.

OED2.  Oxford English Dictionary (1989).  2nd. ed.  CD-ROM.  Oxford
University Press, Oxford.

WNW3.  Webster's New World Dictionary (1994).  3rd college ed.  CD-ROM.=20
Simon and Schuster. US $15; may be ordered at:
http://www.cdaccess.com/ftp/public_html/html/shared/webstdic.htm

Longman Dictionary of the English Language, on a CD-ROM called Infopedia
UK (Softkey).

Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English, 3rd edition, CD-ROM Natural
Language Processing version, must apply for usage,
http://www.awl-elt.com/dictionaries/resnlpapp.html

Longman Interactive American Dictionary, CD-ROM
Longman Interactive English Dictionary , CD-ROM, info for both at
http://www.awl-elt.com/dictionaries/dict.html

(1996)  Webster's Unabridged Dictionary:  Based on the Second Printed
Edition, Newly Revised and Updated.   Random House.  Price:  US $39.95.=20
Ordering:  voice phone:  1-800-733-3000 (RH warehouse in Westminster,
Md.).  ISBN:  0-679-44998-1

The Chambers Dictionary, on PC CD-ROM, info at
http://www.bitecomm.co.uk/releases/liris/97-2-5-24830.html, US$34.77=20
may be ordered from http://www.cdromshop.com/

Standard Dictionary of the English Language for Windows CD-ROM The
Inductel Standard Dictionary (formerly known as the Funk & Wagnalls
Standard Desk Dictionary) US $49.95, may be ordered from
http://home.earthlink.net/~inductel/standard.html

The MegaLex Macquarie Concise Dictionary, revised second edition,
CD-ROM, AU$69.95,  may be ordered from http://www.eis.com.au/

Samuel Johnson: A Dictionary of the English Language on CD-ROM Edited by
ANNE McDERMOTT, University of Birmingham, Cambridge University Press
Electronic Publishing, Price: =A3195.00 excluding VAT / $295.00, info at=20
http://www.cup.cam.ac.uk/pubgroups/reference/Johnsontop.html

American Heritage Talking Dictionary, 5th Edition - Compton's Home
Library - $15 info at
http://www.englishteacher.com/cdroms/cdroms/skamerh1.htm, may be ordered
at: http://www.cdaccess.com/ftp/public_html/html/pc/talking5.htm

Webster's New World Dictionary & Thesaurus, US  $25, may be ordered at=20
http://www.cdaccess.com/html/pc/dict&the.htm
--=20
Daniel Long, Associate Professor     tel  +81-6-723-8297
Japanese Language Research Center    fax  +81-6-723-8302
Osaka Shoin Women's College         dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp
4-2-26 Hishiyanishi                 http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/
Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577-8550

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Feb 1998 08:09:31 -0800
From:    Peter Farruggio <pfarr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU>
Subject: Re: Brooklynese

I'm Brooklyn born and raised (until adulthood), and have made about ten
trips back since the early 1970's...my sense of the typical pronunciation
of "Gordie" (including myself in unguarded moments) would be GAWdee

to whomever, are you sure you heard (or remember) the Goidy accurately?  It
sounds like a stereotype of the famous "toity" for thirty, which I do
remember as being fairly common among older and less educated folks:


>More still: my late uncle from Brooklyn always referred to his son, Gordie,
>as "Goidy." Odd, it rhymed with "toidy," and I never heard him say "terlet."

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Feb 1998 10:35:22 -0800
From:    Devon Coles <dcoles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HORIZON.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Brooklynese

>I'm Brooklyn born and raised (until adulthood), and have made about ten
>trips back since the early 1970's...my sense of the typical pronunciation
>of "Gordie" (including myself in unguarded moments) would be GAWdee
>
>to whomever, are you sure you heard (or remember) the Goidy accurately?  It
>sounds like a stereotype of the famous "toity" for thirty, which I do
>remember as being fairly common among older and less educated folks:
>
Maybe my Canadian-raising raising led my ears astray. However, in my mind's
eye, I don't see lip rounding when I recall my uncle saying Gordy: it's more
like an open o with a subtle front off-glide. And yes, you're right: if we
don't hear accurately I suppose we can't report accurately. Nice point.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Feb 1998 14:30:28 EST
From:    AAllan <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Spelling Bee (minor correction)

Barry Popik wrote:

>when the authors
>of AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS chose their word-of-the-year for 1875, they
>ignored "spelling bee" (which doesn't appear anywhere in the book)

As a matter of fact, it is in the book, under "bee," the word for 1768:

"Thanks to the orthographical oddities of English, one kind of bee has
persisted to the present day and become a formal national competition: the
spelling bee."

It's very understandable that he didn't notice this reference, because it's
not in the index. We'll correct that for the next edition!

And thanks to Barry's posting, we'll be able to say more about the "spelling
bee."

- Allan Metcalf

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 28 Feb 1998 21:47:22 EST
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Rearend/seat (was Re: Butt (was Re: thong))

In a message dated 2/27/98 3:53:24 PM, you wrote:

<<A great story, Bethany!  But hey, everybody, I was talking
    tongue-in-cheek when I offered alternatives to 'butt'; I suspect my
    childhood 'seat' (our family's unmarked term) and 'rear end' (a bit
    more risque) might be equally offensive to other people.  It's hard for
    us oldtimers to adjust to new terms, esp. those for body parts; the
    word in question has just always sounded "bad" to me--strictly an
    aesthetic judgment.>>

I can't quite get used to "We're gonna kick butt!" myself.

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Feb 1998 to 28 Feb 1998
************************************************

======================================================================