There are 16 messages totalling 859 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. "...they met cute..." (7)
  2. AAVE in sports talk
  3. NADS 30.2 Available Online (2)
  4. Query of Puzzling Slang Items In A 1910 Baseball Poem (2)
  5. Digital copyright concerns: fair use
  6. drugging (3)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:46:57 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: "...they met cute..."

In today's New York Times review of "Kurt and Courtney," a film by
Nick Broomfield about Kurt Cobain and Courtney Love, Janet Maslin writes:

"From the dazed, scabby so-called friend who supplied Mr. Cobain with
a gun to Ms. Love's bitter ex-boyfriend (they met cute when she threw
a drink in his face) to the private detective who sees a James M. Cain
plot in Ms. Love's rise to glamorous widowhood, the speakers here are
united by suspicion and malaise."

"They met cute" is a new phrase for me, but somehow vaguely familiar,
in a "we were met on a great battlefield" kind of way.

Does anybody know anything about this, or have other examples? Or is
this an editing error?

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:11:53 -0500
From:    Mary Bucholtz <bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAMU.EDU>
Subject: AAVE in sports talk

This question is on behalf of a grad student here at A&M: has any work been
done on AAVE in sports talk (not just among African Americans but more
generally, both in sportscasting and in the game activity itself)?

Please reply to me privately.

Thanks,

_______________________________________________________________________
Mary Bucholtz                           Department of English
Assistant Professor of Linguistics      Texas A&M University
bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tamu.edu                       College Station, TX 77843-4227
phone: (409) 862-3910                   fax: (409) 862-2292

_______________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:14:57 -0400
From:    Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: "...they met cute..."

>
> "They met cute" is a new phrase for me, but somehow vaguely familiar,
> in a "we were met on a great battlefield" kind of way.
>
> Does anybody know anything about this, or have other examples? Or is
> this an editing error?

It is not an editing error, it's an established idiom of which
we have buckets of examples.

I personally find it annoying.

Jesse Sheidlower
Random House Reference
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:39:37 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: NADS 30.2 Available Online

Allan Metcalf has completed his work on issue 30.2 of the Newsletter
of the American Dialect Society, and you should be receiving it in the
mail shortly.

For the first time, Allan has created a Portable Document Format (PDF)
version of the file, now available on the ADS web site at

http://www.dfjp.com/ads/adsnews.html

The file is viewed using Adobe Acrobat Reader, a free, cross-platform
application (usable on all flavors of Windows and Macintosh, and many
flavors of Unix) available at

http://www.adobe.com/prodindex/acrobat/readstep.html

The user name to access the PDF file is

vowel

and the password is

shift

I am interested in hearing your thoughts on making the newsletter available
to the public at large as an enticement to become a member. We may also
consider putting past issues online.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Jun 1998 11:10:25 -0500
From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
Subject: Query of Puzzling Slang Items In A 1910 Baseball Poem

    I would like to present an annotated version of a 1910 baseball  poem
in a book I am preparing on slang, but I first need clarification, if
possible, on some puzzling slang items in it.  Can anyone help? Due
acknowledgment will of course be given.

     The poem is from the _Seattle Post-Intelligencer_, April 10, 1910,
p.7/4-5.  Here are two of the verses, with the unclarified slang items
printed in capital letters and with my comments appearing in brackets.

       Poem title: 'Letters To A Magnate.'  subtitle: No. 1 -- 'From a
Would-be Recruit'

     Dear Sir: I notice in the papers that your team is ON THE RAG [What is
the original reference here?]
     Half of last year's bunch are holdouts and the new ones can't play tag
[i.e. can't even do child's play]
      If you really want a winner,
      Sign me up--I'm now a TINNER [What is a 'tinner'?]
But I've trained with all the good ones--what I want is one square deal,
And I'll bet the fans will say I'm making good right off the reel. [The
reference seems to be to a fishing reel]

    [Verse #4]:
     If you need a real live captain--I don't want to puff myself,
     But I'll make these big leaguers look like Swiss cheese on the shelf
[seems to indicate something stale]
     Freddie Clarke WOULD TAKE IT RUNNING [Does this mean 'skedaddle'? Why
'take it' here?]
     Any time that I went gunning
     For his berth back there in Pittsburg, but this climate suits my speed.
    So just pass along the contract--and don't offer chicken feed.

    [Then: several more verses] ---So, might anyone have ideas about 'on
the rag;' 'tinner;' or "take it running'?  Any suggestions would be very
welcome.

---Gerald Cohen





gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:22:20 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: "...they met cute..."

At 11:14 AM -0400 6/5/98, Jesse T Sheidlower wrote:
>>
>> "They met cute" is a new phrase for me, but somehow vaguely familiar,
>> in a "we were met on a great battlefield" kind of way.
>>
>> Does anybody know anything about this, or have other examples? Or is
>> this an editing error?
>
>It is not an editing error, it's an established idiom of which
>we have buckets of examples.
>
>I personally find it annoying.
>
I'm morally and aesthetically neutral on it, and I don't know the
constituency of Jesse's collection, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority
of citations I've come across are used (like Grant's) in a cinematic and/or
pop-cultural context.  To say that e.g. Theseus (it WAS Theseus and not
Perseus in the labyrinth, wasn't it?) and Ariadne met cute, would be a bit
of a stretch.  I'm also pretty sure the X and Y in "X and Y met cute" have
to be (at least temporarily) a couple.  It does sound like a Hollywood
flack's expression, whence perhaps Jesse's distaste.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:05:23 EDT
From:    Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: NADS 30.2 Available Online

What hath Grant wrought! It's awesome. Check for yourself.

The online version is even an improvement over the paper version of the
Newsletter, which went into the US mail this morning (June 5). The latter has
a glaring, though innocuous, typographical error in the table of contents. I
cleaned it up for the online edition.

I should warn readers that there's another part of the newsletter that isn't
available online, namely the inserted newsletters from the Teaching Committee
and the Usage Committee. The respective editors provided the pages for their
newsletters in camera-ready hard copy, so I don't have those pages in
PageMaker, and consequently couldn't convert them to PDF. Maybe we can work
with those editors to include those pages in the future.

- Allan Metcalf
ADS executive secretary and NADS editor

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:11:25 EDT
From:    Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Digital copyright concerns: fair use

This comes from our Washington DC affiliate, the National Humanities Alliance.
You're invited to act on it as your conscience dictates. - Allan Metcalf

--------------------------

5 June 1998

MEMORANDUM

TO:   NHA Executive Directors

FR:   John Hammer

RE:   Act Now to Preserve Fair Use in the NII

The long battle to ensure that fair use and related educational and
library provisions remain robust and effective in the print and digital
environments has reached a critical stage -- and the scholarly community
and its allied are in danger of defeat on these core issues.  The
situation in a nutshell:

IN THE SENATE:

     o The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (S 2037) passed the Senate
last month with a provision which, if it becomes law, will undermine
scholars, librarians and others ability to exercise fair use and related
provisions, while at the same time, creates a new access right for owners
of copyrighted materials (section 1201).  There are no meaningful
exceptions for education and library community to this new access right;

     o A much more balanced and favorable bill from the humanities
community point of view, was S 1146 sponsored by Senator John Ashcroft
(R-MO), which was abandoned last month when Mr. Ashcroft negotiated some
goals and then became a co-sponsor of S 2037.

IN THE HOUSE

     o The WIPO Copyright Treaty Implementation Act (HR 2281), the
counterpart bill in the House of Representatives which contains the same
Section 1201 language as the Senate version, has passed the House
Judiciary Committee and is now before the House Commerce Committee.

     o HR 3048, the Boucher-Campbell bill, which has 40 co-sponsors but
has not produced a collaborative negotiation with the proponents of HR
2281.  HR 3048 is intended to protect all Americans (including copyright
owners, but not exclusively owners), while being fair and honoring
innovation and the free market.  NOTE:  Information on HR 3048 was
distributed to NHA members earlier this year.  Anyone wishing to have a
comparison of HR 3048 and HR 2281 can receive one by Fax by telephoning
name and address to NHA at 202/296-4994 or e-mailing to jhammer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cni.org.

     o The Commerce Committee claimed jurisdiction over HR 2281 and
Commerce Subcommittee on Telecommunication, Trade and Consumer Protection
[W.J. "billy" Tauzin (R-LA), Chairman; and Edward J. Markey (D-MA),
Ranking Minority Member] is holding a hearing today.  It is critically
important that the members of the full Commerce Committee hear from
humanities-library-other cultural communities explaining why Section 1201
must be changed to ensure that the balance is maintained between owners
and users in the networked environment.  If the bill as it is presently
formulated becomes law, it will be damaging to scholarly inquiry and, in
fact, many forms of research and intellectual activity.

Every NHA member organization is urged to write to the chairman and
ranking minority member of the full Commerce Committee and the chair and
ranking minority member of the telecommunications subcommittee mentioned
above, to express concern about the impact of, in effect, leaving fair use
out of the digital environment and urging appropriate changes in HR 2281.
BECAUSE THESE COMMUNICATIONS SHOULD ARRIVE NO LATER THAN JUNE 17 (AND
PREFERABLY BY JUNE 12), MEMBERS ARE URGED TO FAX OF OVERNIGHT LETTERS.
ALTERNATIVELY, PHONE CALLS TO STAFFERS RESPONSIBLE FOR INTELLECTUAL
PROPERTY ISSUES IN ANY HOUSE MEMBER'S OFFICE, ALSO WILL BE VERY HELPFUL.
The members of the Commerce Committee are listed at the end of this memo.
Sending a copy of a letter to the chairman to other GOP members and a copy
of a letter to the ranking minority member to all Democrats will be very
helpful.

To assist NHA members in this effort, the following is included

     o Background and talking points
     o a sample letter plus a suggested "fix"
     o a list of the members of the House Committee on Commerce

BACKGROUND

o  The Constitutional provision upon which all copyright law is based,
calls for a balance of the owners and the public interest (i.e., the
Constitution justifies offering a monopoly for a brief time to a creator
by citing the need to promote progress -- This is the basis for the fair
use tradition.)

     "The Congress shall have Power...To promote the Progress of
Science and the useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and
Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and
Discoveries."  (Article I, Section 8)

o  A bill recently passed by the united States Senate and pending before
the U.S. House of Representatives contains a provision that would effect
the most dramatic change in copyright law in over one hundred years.
Buried in the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, a measure designed to
implement new international copyright treaties which bring the rest of the
world up with current U.S. law, reads:

       Section 1201(a).  No person shall circumvent a
       technological protection measure that effectively
       controls access to a work protected under this title.

While sounding innocuous, what the provision does is create a brand new
and unlimited right to control access to copyrighted works.  If enacted
into law, this new right could bypass the carefully crafted balance
between exclusive rights of ownership and public access to works for
educational, scholarly, and scientific purposes, which has been part of
copyright law for the entire 20th Century. In short, it could eliminate
fair use from copyright law.

o  Historically, copyright law has granted creators of works (including
books, articles, photographs, movies, and music), five exclusive rights.
These rights permit the copyright owner to control reproduction,
preparation of derivative works, public performance, public distribution,
and public display.  However, while copyright law grants "exclusive"
rights, it sets out numerous limitations or exceptions, the most notable
of which is FAIR USE.  These limitations permit, among other things,
schools and libraries to use materials in classrooms, critics to
quote from works as part of commentary, cable systems and satellites to
relay television programs, and parodists to draw upon existing texts to
express their original thoughts.

The exceptions apply, even in a world of digital works, where
technological locks can restrict access, because as long as one has a
lawfully acquired copy, fair use and many of the other statutory
limitations are not technologically defined.  Until now.

o  If the right of access is adopted and backed by stiff penalties (S
2037 and HR 2281 provide for civil remedies of up to $2,500 for each
access violation and criminal penalties of up to $500,000 - $1,000,000 for
offenses, plus 10 years in prison), then publishers will be able to
publicly release works subject to "technological protection measures" and
prevent any unauthorized access.  Even reading paragraphs of an article in
a library could be banned.

o  No exceptions whatsoever are spelled out in the amendments.  This
means there would be no fair use of any work controlled by technological
measures, because if one cannot access a work without breaking through a
technological protection measure and thereby violating the law, then one
cannot quote for teaching, commentary, or scholarship.

o  In what Marybeth Peters, the Register of Copyrights, has noted is a
meaningless act, the Senate bill promises that all limitations and
defenses to claims of copyright infringement, including fair use, remain
unaffected by the new law.  Section 1201(d).  That is only "technically
correct."  Since copyright infringement consists of violating one of the
older exclusive rights of owners, the new "right of access" is legally
unrelated to "copyright infringement."  Does fair use apply to the right
of access?  There is only one answer the way the bill now reads. No!

o  What can be done to preserve the cherished right of anyone to quote
and use published works without fear of criminal sanctions?  Alert the
members of the House of Representatives to the threat which Section
1201(a) poses to the entire copyright law system.  Make them understand
that access to lawfully acquired works, even works cloaked in
technological protection measures, is at the heart of fair use.  If we
enter an era when quoting from published works is a crime unless you have
permission of the copyright owner, America and the research and education
enterprise will never be the same.

TALKING POINTS

o  Legislation to update the nation's copyright laws to reflect the
increasingly widespread use of digital networks is now moving through both
chambers of Congress;

o  The versions of these bills approved by the House Judiciary Committee
and passed by the Senate provide strong new protection for copyrighted
information;

o  These bills also include a "savings clause" intended by the bills'
authors and proponents to affirm that the Fair Use Doctrine (the part of
the Copyright Act relied upon by scholars, researchers, educators,
students, library users and many others to quote from copyrighted works
without advance permission of the author) applied both to conventional
print material and to electronically transmitted information;

o  However, according to the Register of Copyrights' testimony before
Congress late last year, this "savings clause" will not apply to the new
protection provisions of the pending legislation as written because of the
technical way in which it is worded;

o  The problem exists because fair use is a defense under current law to a
claim of copyright infringement.  The pending legislation, however, would
make it a crime to "circumvent" any electronic protection codes in which a
copyright owner may "wrap" its material for any purpose -- even if that
purpose is not now an infringement of copyright (such as making fair use
of the material, preserving it, or incorporating it into a distance
learning lesson in the way the Copyright Act now expressly permits.);

o  The solution to this problem is to make clear in the new laws that the
fair use defense (and those other parts of the current Copyright Act
designed to permit the use of information under limited circumstances
without the owner's prior authorization) are applicable BOTH in legal
actions brought for copyright infringement AND to claims for unlawful
"circumvention" brought in the future under the proposed legislation.

o  Unless this adjustment can be made in the pending legislation, the
practical ability of scholars, educators, students and others to make FAIR
USE of electronic information could be precluded or dramatically reduced
by the information owners' unilateral application of an electronic
protection system.



SAMPLE LETTER
(To be Faxed or overnight because of short time frame)

The Honorable Tom Bliley
Chairman
Committee on Commerce
U.S. House of Representatives
Washington, DC 20515-6115

Dear Mr. Chairman [Dear Representative XXXX]

I write on behalf of [association/society] to express strong concern about
HR 2281, the "WIPO Copyright Treaties Implementation Act," and to register
our support for the related provisions in HR 3048, the "Digital Era
Copyright Enhancement Act."  Unfortunately, provisions relating to
circumvention of copyright protection systems in HR 2281 will eliminate
the ability of our members as well as our organization -- scholarly
researchers, library users, students -- to exercise privileges such as
fair use and related library and education provisions.  These education
and library provisions are at the core of the academic enterprise -- these
are the essential means by which teachers teach, students learn, and
researchers advance knowledge.  We ask for your support in ensuring that
the fair use doctrine and related provisions remain robust in the digital
environment.

Although HR 2281 contains language that appears to ensure that fair use
and related provisions will be applicable to both print and digital
environments, it is, in fact unlikely.  This serious problem was
identified by the Register of Copyright in testimony before the Congress
last year.  As reported by the House Judiciary Committee, Section
1201(a)(1) would prohibit circumvention of a technological measure for any
purpose -- including lawful purposes such as fair use and related
education and library provisions.  This constitutes an unprecedented and
unlimited right to control access to a copyrighted work.  And, although
the authors of the legislation have stated that it was their intention to
preserve fair use and related education provisions via a savings clause
(1201(d)), as drafted, it falls short of maintaining the critical balance
between owners and users' rights regarding use of information resources.

It is not difficult to resolve this critical concern.  The solution is to
make clear that fair use and related provisions are applicable under the
proposed legislation  I have included with this letter language that would
address our concerns and maintain the appropriate level of balance under
current law.

In closing, I believe that there are a number of other provisions in HR
2281 including, privacy and over-regulation of emerging technologies that
do not appear to be in the best interest of our democracy or international
trade interests.  But, fair use is a key to creativity and innovation --
Not just for scholarly research but for the much broader enterprise that
has been this nation's strength.  The introduction of a right of control
of access seems precisely the way to weaken that enterprise.

Sincerely yours,






[ATTACHMENT TO LETTER PRESENTING CHANGES THAT ADDRESS CONCERN]



CHANGES IN THE PENDING LEGISLATION WOULD ADDRESS THE PROBLEM?

Amended language for Section 1201 "(a) VIOLATIONS REGARDING CIRCUMVENTION
OF TECHNOLOGICAL PROTECTION MEASURES -- (1) No person shall circumvent a
technological protection measure that effectively controls access to a
work protected under this title."  INSERT "Nothing in this section shall
apply to subsequent actions of a person once such person has obtained
authorized access to a copy of a work protected under title 17 even if
such actions involve circumvention of other types of technological
protection measures."

Delete subsection 1201(d)(1) and substitute the following: "(d) OTHER
RIGHTS, ETC., NOT AFFECTED -- (1) All rights, limitations and defenses
available under this title, including fair use, shall be applicable to
actions arising under this Chapter.


ALL MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE CAN BE ADDRESSED AS FOLLOWS:

     The Honorable [Dagwood Smith]
     U.S House of Representatives
     Washington, DC 20515

ALL MEMBERS OF THE HOUSE CAN BE TELEPHONED THROUGH THE CAPITOL
SWITCHBOARD:  202/225-3121 -- For FAX numbers, call the member's office
and request the number or call NHA at 202/296-4994

WHO TO CONTACT - Members of the Commerce Committee listed below but also,
any other member of the House as this legislation may reach the House
floor any time after June 17.

COMMERCE COMMITTEE:

Note:  An asterisk identified members of the Commerce Committee who are
also among the 40 co-sponsors of H.R.3048, the Boucher-Campbell bill --
(They should be thanked for that co-sponsorship).

MAJORITY (GOP)

Tom Bliley, VA = Chairman (full committee)
W.J. "Billy" Tauzin, LA = Chair, Telecommunications, Trade and
                          Consumer Protection Subcommittee
Michael G. Oxley, OH
Michael Bilirakis, FL
Dan Schaefer, CO
Joe Barton, TX
J. Dennis Hastert, IL
Fred Upton, MI
Cliff Stearns, FL
Bill Paxon, NY
Paul E. Gillmor, OH
* Scott Klug, WI
James C. Greenwood, PA
Michael D. Crapo, ID
Christopher Cox, CA
Nathan Deal, GA
Steve Largent, OK
Richard Burr, NC
* Brian P. Bilbray, CA
Ed Whitfield, KY
Greg Ganske, IA
* Charlie Norwood, GA
Rick White, WA
Tom Coburn, OK
Rick Lazio, NY
Barbara Cubin, WY
James Rogan, CA
John Shimkus, IL



MINORITY MEMBERS

John D. Dingell, MI = Ranking Minority Member
Henry A. Waxman, CA
Edward J. Markey = Ranking Minority Member,
                   telecommunications subcommittee
* Ralph M. Hall, TX
* Rick Boucher, VA
Thomas J. Manton, NY
* Edolphus Towns, NY
* Frank J. Pallone, Jr, NJ
* Sherrod Brown, OH
Bart Gordon, TN
* Elizabeth Furse, OR
Peter Deutsch, FL
Bobby Rush, IL
Anna G. Eshoo, CA
Ron Klink, PA
Bart Stupak, MI
Eliot L. Engel, NY
Thomas C. Sawyer, OH
Albert R. Wynn, MD
Gene Green, TX
Karen McCarthy, MO
Ted Strickland, OH
Diana DeGette, CO

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:30:18 +0000
From:    Jim Rader <jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: Re: "...they met cute..."

Nexis has sporadic examples of this idiom going back to 1978
(Washington Post, Feb. 3).  A number of its users characterize it as
"show-biz language," "screenwriters' jargon," or the like.  It may be
several decades older.  I'm not about to wade through the nine or
ten inches of cites for _meet_ in our pre-C10 file that might or might
not have an earlier instance of it.

Jim Rader

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Jun 1998 10:58:58 +0000
From:    Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: "...they met cute..."

I guess I'm both dense and clueless, but from the discussion so far I
have been unable to figure out what "they met cute" MEANS.  They met in
a cute fashion?  They ran into something cute?  The contexts, as far as
they go, suggest it's none of the above.  Can anyone who's more into
cine-speak explain?

Peter

----------------------
Peter A. McGraw
Linfield College
McMinnville, Oregon
pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linfield.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Jun 1998 13:40:41 -0500
From:    Greg Pulliam <gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU>
Subject: drugging

The channel WGN noon news had a feature on today in which a psychologist
talked about teenagers using alcohol and drugs, and she used the phrase
"drinking and drugging" to describe their behavior.  I notice MW10 has this
intransitive use of "drugging" listed, but I'd never heard it before today.
Is this use common anywhere?

Greg

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Jun 1998 12:03:56 -0700
From:    "A. Vine" <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: "...they met cute..."

Larry Horn wrote:
>
> >
> I'm morally and aesthetically neutral on it, and I don't know the
> constituency of Jesse's collection, but I'm pretty sure the vast majority
> of citations I've come across are used (like Grant's) in a cinematic and/or
> pop-cultural context.  To say that e.g. Theseus (it WAS Theseus and not
> Perseus in the labyrinth, wasn't it?) and Ariadne met cute, would be a bit
> of a stretch.  I'm also pretty sure the X and Y in "X and Y met cute" have

Yes, it was Theseus who found his way out of the labyrinth with the help of
Ariadne and a ball of string.  He also slayed the Minotaur, but how he slayed it
is not clear - there are a few stories.

Theseus (son of King Aegeus of Athens) volunteered to be one of the 14 young men
and women sent, essentially to be eaten by the Minotaur, in homage to King Minos
of Crete by the conquered Athenians.  When the 14 Athenians were paraded around
Crete, Ariadne (Minos' daughter), saw Theseus and fell in love with him.  She
agreed to help him out of the labyrinth if Theseus would marry her.

Don't know if that's the definition of meeting cute, but it certainly isn't my
idea of a good time.

Andrea

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:21:00 -0400
From:    "Patrick L. Courts" <courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AIT.FREDONIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: drugging

I can't say how long I've been hearing it, but it's been for many years, at
least 10.  Drinkers and druggers do a lot of drinking and drugging.  "That
dude does so much drugging that he never knows where he is."  I am in
Western New York.

At 01:40 PM 6/5/98 -0500, Greg Pulliam wrote:
>The channel WGN noon news had a feature on today in which a psychologist
>talked about teenagers using alcohol and drugs, and she used the phrase
>"drinking and drugging" to describe their behavior.  I notice MW10 has this
>intransitive use of "drugging" listed, but I'd never heard it before today.
>Is this use common anywhere?
>
>Greg
>
Best,
Pat

Patrick L. Courts
English Department
State University of New York
Fredonia, NY  14063
courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ait.fredonia.edu
716-673-3450

http://www.fredonia.edu/department/english/courts/

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:06:42 -0400
From:    Kenneth Setzer <ksetzer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.FIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: drugging

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I have also heard the usage "drinking and drugging" on the news (a few
different stations) to mean drinking alcohol and taking illegal drugs.
In addition, also on news programs, I have heard "to rock and bottle the
police," meaning to throw rocks and bottles at them. I don't think this
latter noun-to-verb conversion is unusual, but since I haven't heard
these usages in person, it's strange to hear them introduced on news
broadcasts.
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x-mozilla-html: FALSE
end:            vcard


--------------E80DD4AFB3AA6249B5E12EAA--

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Jun 1998 15:41:34 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: "...they met cute..."

At 10:58 AM +0000 6/5/98, Peter McGraw wrote:
>I guess I'm both dense and clueless, but from the discussion so far I
>have been unable to figure out what "they met cute" MEANS.  They met in
>a cute fashion?  They ran into something cute?  The contexts, as far as
>they go, suggest it's none of the above.  Can anyone who's more into
>cine-speak explain?
>
Basically, they met in a cute fashion.  Archetype of this is bumping into
each other in their cars, or rushing heedless into each other on the street
carrying many packages, or the like; in any case, not being introduced by
friends or on a date or at a party.  Maybe she's a doctor and he's someone
hired to portray a patient nude on an operating table, or vice versa.  Or
she's skydiving, floating down gently to earth, until her arc is
intercepted by his hang-glider and they tumble off together.  Only the
imagination of the screenwriter's the limit.      --Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 5 Jun 1998 18:17:34 -0400
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <gd2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Query of Puzzling Slang Items In A 1910 Baseball Poem

Well, if nobody is going to take a shot at any of this.... I don't have all
the resources I'd like here at home, but maybe a few guesses will provoke
someone who knows more to say something.


At 11:10 AM 6/5/98 -0500, Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU> wrote:
>     Dear Sir: I notice in the papers that your team is ON THE RAG [What is
>the original reference here?]

Could this be "on the rag" = in a bad mood [here, because they are a losing
team]? For what it's worth, OED2 doesn't attest this before 1969 ("Current
Slang (Univ. S. Dakota) I_II. 65 On the rag, in a bad mood.---College males,
Arizona.) But *if* this locution originally refers to menstrual hygiene, it
seems likely to go back at least several decades before 1969 given the
changes in menstrual hygiene by the mid-20th century.


>     Half of last year's bunch are holdouts and the new ones can't play tag
>[i.e. can't even do child's play]
>      If you really want a winner,
>      Sign me up--I'm now a TINNER [What is a 'tinner'?]

I don't find it in various references I happen to have nearby, but
speculatively???: "someone who plays baseball for, or at least deserves, a
(high) salary" or "someone who will make money by increasing attendance at
games"??? (In either case, from "tin" = money.) Unless someone can find
"tinner," perhaps it's just a nonce-coinage using the -er suffix -- very common.


>But I've trained with all the good ones--what I want is one square deal,
>And I'll bet the fans will say I'm making good right off the reel. [The
>reference seems to be to a fishing reel]

OED2 reel n. meaning 2c. "off the reel" =  without stopping, in an
uninterrupted course or succession; also, immediately, quickly; so right (or
_sharp) off the reel. [First cite, 1825.] The second sense ("immediately")
seems correct here. The jobseeker says he'd play well immediately.


>
>    [Verse #4]:
>     If you need a real live captain--I don't want to puff myself,
>     But I'll make these big leaguers look like Swiss cheese on the shelf
>[seems to indicate something stale]
>     Freddie Clarke WOULD TAKE IT RUNNING [Does this mean 'skedaddle'? Why
>'take it' here?]
>     Any time that I went gunning
>     For his berth back there in Pittsburg, but this climate suits my speed.
>    So just pass along the contract--and don't offer chicken feed.
>

Maybe: Instead of "taking it lying down" (i.e., F.C. simply having to endure
the results of the tinner's superior baseball skills), F.C. would be so
intimidated or overpowered that in the end he would "take it running [away,
in fear of physical injury]"????

It's perhaps germane that the two most obscure bits in the poem (tinner,
take it running) are rhyme-words. Writers of doggerel are not above
stretching syntax and creating hapaxes in order to get a rhyme. But further
evidence attesting the two locutions solidly would kill that idea....

Anybody else?

Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or gd2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Jun 1998 to 5 Jun 1998
**********************************************
There are 15 messages totalling 783 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Pansy; Irate; Internment; Hotel; Banjo; Teens; Ben Dova, et al. (2)
  2. Tinner, tinhorn, Tin Jesus
  3. college
  4. Internment; Hotel
  5. "You the man."
  6. "You the man" (6)
  7. "You da man."
  8. Going postal in Oz
  9. The punctuation mailing list

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Jun 1998 02:25:36 EDT
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Pansy; Irate; Internment; Hotel; Banjo; Teens; Ben Dova, et al.

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Subject: Pansy; Irate; Internment; Hotel; Banjo; Teens; Ben Dova, et al.
Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 02:22:05 EDT
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PANSY (continued)

    I got to the Rodgers & Hammerstein Recorded Sound Archives today.  "So I
Ups to Him" was a classic Jimmy Durante number that was on at least two of his
albums.  One album featured numbers from the old Club Durant (the "e" couldn't
fit the sign).  Thus, while the number was used in SHOW GIRL of 1929, it
probably dates from 1923.
    In "So I Ups to Him," Durante bumps into someone on the sidewalk, and they
get into a fight.  Durante says:

     Roses are red
     Violets are blue
     Horses neck
     Do you?
     A PANSY!

     Durante meets the same person three years later.  "The Pansy!" is heard
near the end of the number.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
IRATE

     I've been checking the new Performing Arts 1690-1783 CD-ROM for OED
antedates.  The next few items were discovered there.
     OED has "irate" from 1838.
     "(T)he irate master made his escape" is in the Boston News Letter, 3-10
June 1717.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
INTERNMENT

     OED has "internment" from 1870.
     (A)nd good will at his death, order'd the most magnificent internment for
him that has been known in New England" is in the New England Courant, 3-10
August 1724.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
HOTEL

     I forgot to check OED, but BARNHART'S DOE has "1765, in Smollett's
_Travels Through France and Italy_; earlier, a student residence at a
university (1748), borrowing from French _hotel_, from Old French _hostel_."
     "Paris, April 30...The Ambassador at his return to his hotel" is in the
Boston News Letter, 14-21 August 1721.
     "Hotel de Ville" is in the Boston News Letter, 4-11 June 1722.
     "Hamburgh, Oct. 24...hotel" is in the New England Weekly Journal, 15
January 1728.
     "The Hotel of France" is in the Boston Gazette, 21-27 January 1730.
     "A letter from Paris, Jan 4. ... In the course of this month will be
shewn at the hotel de Langueville" is in the American Weekly Mercury, 11-18
May 1738.
     And so on.  I deserve a free double-bed for this.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
BANJO

     The DA has "Bangil" in 1740; the OED has 1764.
     "Run away, some months ago, from Capt. Thomas Prather, of Prince George's
County, Maryland, a Negroe man, named Scipio, is of short stature, plays on
the banjo, and can sing" is in the Pennsylvania Gazette, 13 July 1749.
     "Bangeo" is in the New York Mercury, 5 November 1753, and "banjoe" is in
the Pennsylvania Gazette, 17 November 1757.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
TEENS

     For the study of "teenager," it's worth noting that "Miss-in-her-Teens"
is in the Pennsylvania Chronicle, 19-26 December 1768--which is quite some
time before the 1930s.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
STOCK COMPANY; STARS

     I was recently checking the Knickerbocker Magazine for its forms of
"hello."  (Why isn't it on CD-ROM?)  This doesn't quite antedate "stars" (OED
1824), but it antedates "stock company" (DA 1839).  From the Knickerbocker
Magazine, March 1836, pg. 311:

     THE FRANKLIN THEATRE (...)  Its _stock_ company, it is generally
conceded, is unexceptionable; and it has its fair share of 'stars'--those
twinkling luminaries, without whose evanescent light, (however erroneous the
supposition,) most theatres are considered as being involved in little better
than total darkness.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
ROCK; COOK WITH GAS; SQUARE

    I left this off my discussion of "rock and roll" in 1937-38.  It's from
1941, and antedates "cook with gas" (1942) on page 471 of the RHHDAS.  It also
antedates "square" cited in Barnhart's DOE "the slang sense being out-of-date,
old-fashioned, or too conventional is found in 1946, in American English,
originally as a jazz usage."

ROCKIN' AND REELIN' (1941)(from the Universal production "Ride 'Em Cowboy")
By Don Raye and Gene de Paul

Whatcha say we all go rockin' and reelin'
Make the old Virgina reel really hop
The corn will thrive if you plant it in jive
And I'll bet that it pops your top.
Hit the timber and go rockin' and reelin'
Do the boogie if the beat is in eight
You're just nowhere if your dancin' is square
'Cause you'll swing like a rusty gate.
Put rhythm to your doe se doein'
It's easy to make it mix
Keep jumpin' when you're heel and toein'
If you really want to get your kicks.
Swing your partner when you're rockin' and reelin'
Do your dancin' like you haven't a care
You'll be first class, you'll be cookin' with gas
If you go rockin' round the square.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
STATUS SYMBOL

     Fred Shapiro is checking JSTOR for antedates; I said before it was a bit
dull.  Dull for slang--checking "slang" as a keyword turned up almost nothing
useful.  Checking "dude" turned up old citations, and one citation that was
actually the word "in-clude."
     However, as jargon goes, it's very fine.  I found Shapiro's first "WASP"
citation in seconds.  Also, an earlier "price-earnings ratio" from the 1930s.
     OED has "status symbol" from 1955, but I found it in "Symbols of Class
Status" by Erving Goffman, the British Journal of Sociology, December 1951,
vol. II, No. 4, pg. 294:

     Specialized means of displaying one's position frequently develop.  Such
sign-vehicles have been called _status symbols_.  They are the cues which
select for a person the status that is to be imputed to him and the way in
which others are to treat him.

     Herbert Spencer's THE PRINCIPLES OF SOCIOLOGY is cited, but I didn't find
"status symbol" in that large work.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
"BEN DOVA" AND OTHER SLANG NAMES

     Neither Ben Dova nor his sister Eileen U. Bendova is in the RHHDAS.  In
Zit's Theatrical Newspaper, 7 March 1931, pg. 12, col. 3, a performer billed
himself as "BEN DOVA, Convivial Inebriate."
     In a previous posting about "fairy," I mentioned that it possibly comes
from a "new and gorgeous pantomime" that was presented in the 1870s at the
"Theatre Royal--Olymprick."
     Check out these character names (caution is advised, however!):

Masturbation; Fairfuck; Fuckwell the First; Cherrytop; Big-Prick; Sir
Whitybrown Bumfodder; Tickleroot; Bubo; Sir Secondary Symptom; Dr. Bolus De
Capivi; Gamahuche; Princess Shovituppa; Princess Syphilis; Gonorrhea; Lady
Clara Cindasifta; Clitoris; Chancre; and the ambassadors:
Russian--Baron Tossisselfoff.
German--Herr Crap Von Schnitzenstein.
Italian--Marchese De Catamito.
French--Chevalier De La Belle Merde.
Spanish--Don Pego Castrato.
Greek--His Excellency Ximenes Kismias.
Turkish--Moistool Pasha.
English--Sir John Thomas.
Japanese--Shudami Dum Singh.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
RAG

    Almost forgot.  The "rag" in Gerald Cohen's baseball poem means "pennant."
It dates from the late 1880s or 1890s.
    People are confusing "tinners" with "tinkers"--an old Irish term.
"Tinner" might mean "itinerant."  Perhaps it has something to do with "tin
can"--I have a wonderful period cartoon about a baseball "canning factory."



--part0_897373537_boundary--

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Jun 1998 02:42:19 -0700
From:    Bill King <wfking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOTNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Tinner, tinhorn, Tin Jesus

Tinner means fake or substitute for the real thing.  At the time, to say that
someone was acting like "a little tin Jesus" meant that he was pompous and,
probably, couldn't deliver.

Tin was the perceived substance of substitution, much like plastic in the 60's.

A tin horn is a cheap horn not made of brass and a tin ear can't hear the
difference.  Hence, tinhorn = phony.  In comparison, "brasshorn" wouldn't have
made any sense, nor does it now.

Yes, a tinner was Welshman, and this was certainly nothing to brag about in the
mining towns of Pennsylvania at the time.  It was probably as bad as Irish, and
the Irish were stereotypically regarded as full of it, if my Irish relatives
were correct.





Gerald Cohen wrote:

>     My thanks to the people who have responded to my query about the 1910
> baseball poem, particularly to Gregory Downing for his 6/5/98 ads-l
> message.  His comment about "off the reel" meaning "immediately"  is right on
> the mark.
>
>     "Tinner" remains a problem, however.  The dictionaries give "tinner" as a
> miner of tin, or a tinsmith, but neither fits the poem.  In the context
> of the poem, "tinner" seems to mean "an unproven talent."  The poet says:



> "Sign me up--I'm now a tinner/But I've trained with all the good ones."
> I.e., he hasn't played in the big leagues yet, but his preparation has been
> excellent.
>
>      Here is part of the third verse, with the second and third lines of
> interest now:
>
>      I can hit like Honus Wagner, I can steal like Tyrus Cobb,
>      In the field I'm all the grapefruit [i.e. I'm the cat's whiskers], at
> the bat I'm on the job--
>               Never entered any college
>               But I'm there on inside knowledge--
>     [etc. etc. etc.]
>
>      So, "never entered any college"--i.e. hasn't played in the big leagues,
>   "but I'm there on inside knowledge"---i.e., I've learned the game
> elsewhere.  This seems to repeat his observation a verse earlier that he's
> a "tinner" but has "trained with all the good ones."
>
>     Still, what all this has to do with "tin" remains a mystery. Maybe
> Jonathan Lighter has something about this in his files.
>
> --Gerald Cohen
>
> gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Jun 1998 02:53:48 -0700
From:    Bill King <wfking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOTNET.NET>
Subject: Re: college

I think that you're reading much too much into this.  I'd bet that most of the
professional ballplayers of the time were probably academically advanced if
they had graduated from hight school, but many could rhyme college with
knowledge.   College of Knowledge -- a rhyme with legs.

I would guess that the person who wrote this fine verse wrote for the newspaper
on a regular basis but was not a player.

Gerald Cohen wrote:

>               Never entered any college
>               But I'm there on inside knowledge--
>     [etc. etc. etc.]
>
>      So, "never entered any college"--i.e. hasn't played in the big leagues,
>   "but I'm there on inside knowledge"---i.e., I've learned the game
> elsewhere.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:42:16 +0000
From:    Jim Rader <jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: Re: Internment; Hotel

> -------------------------------------------
> INTERNMENT
>
>      OED has "internment" from 1870.
>      (A)nd good will at his death, order'd the most magnificent internment for
> him that has been known in New England" is in the New England Courant, 3-10
> August 1724.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is pretty obviously either a mental or a typographical error for
_interment_.

> -------------------------------------------
> HOTEL
>
>      I forgot to check OED, but BARNHART'S DOE has "1765, in Smollett's
> _Travels Through France and Italy_; earlier, a student residence at a
> university (1748), borrowing from French _hotel_, from Old French _hostel_."
>      "Paris, April 30...The Ambassador at his return to his hotel" is in the
> Boston News Letter, 14-21 August 1721.
>      "Hotel de Ville" is in the Boston News Letter, 4-11 June 1722.
>      "Hamburgh, Oct. 24...hotel" is in the New England Weekly Journal, 15
> January 1728.
>      "The Hotel of France" is in the Boston Gazette, 21-27 January 1730.
>      "A letter from Paris, Jan 4. ... In the course of this month will be
> shewn at the hotel de Langueville" is in the American Weekly Mercury, 11-18
> May 1738.
>      And so on.  I deserve a free double-bed for this.
>

It doesn't look like any of these cites refer to _hotel_ in the sense
"establishment where a guest pays for lodging and usually meals,"
but it's only this sense that the 1760 date refers to.  OED2 has
plenty of evidence for earlier senses.  "The ambassador at his return
to his hotel" probably refers to the ambassador's permanent
residence, but one would have to check the context to be sure.

Jim Rader

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:03:23 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: "You the man."

At 7:12 PM -0500 6/8/98, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>
>
>---The expression is given in Clarence Major's _Juba To Jive: A Dictionary
>of African-American Slang_, 1994, although not with the specific meaning
>"Thank you":
>
>       YOU THE MAN (1900-s-1990s) a phrase or response meaning "you're in
>charge," "whatever you
>       say goes," " et cetera.  This expression has changed in the ninety
>years or so that it has been popular
>       in black informal speech.  Originally a woman's line addressed to a
>man, usually her husband or
>       lover, about half the time used ironically.  In the thirties, black
>men used it ironically in addressing
>       white men--and in come cases black men--who happened to be their
>bosses.  In the eighties young
>       black men began using it as an ironic compliment.
>
It has certainly spread (like our earlier street-savvy-wannabe "my bad") in
the last few years to the would-be-hip non-African-American community.
It's a favorite of certain Gen X radio "personalities" and also occurs in a
current commercial for a major business hotel chain (Embassy Suites or one
of that ilk), in each occasion in the form of exchanges between two
typically middle-class white guys along the lines of:

Youdaman!
No, YOUdaman!

...sometimes elaborated (as in the practice on an obnoxious late-night
syndicated sports talk show called Ferrell on the Bench) into e.g.

Youdaman!
How can *I* be the man when *YOU*daman!

It always seems on these occasions to be pronounced as indicated (except
that the middle vowel is of course a schwa): no pauses, voiced stop or flap
(always [d] rather than [dh]), and heavy stress on initial and/or final
syllable, depending on the discourse context.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:20:50 -0500
From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
Subject: Re: "You the man"

   Avi Arditti, who inquired about "You the man!',  has sent me a helpful
follow-up note.  It indicates that this expression can be added to the list
of African-American contributions to the broader speech community, even if
the item is not yet standard English.
>
>The thankful car owner was a young white man, and I've heard other white
>people use it recently, so perhaps this century-old expression has finally
>hit mainstream!
>
--Gerald Cohen




gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:28:37 -0400
From:    Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: "You the man"

Just thought I'd point out that we do have the base of
this expression in HDAS; under the entry for "the man"
(which we divide into nine subsenses), sense "f" is
"Black E. a man who is highly accomplished or respected;
the best man in a given field or at a particular time."
The earliest is 1952, but one of the cites refers to
1923. We didn't bother to separate out the phrase "you
the man!," but we have a few examples from the early
1990s; I'm sure we could find much earlier examples if
we had treated this as a distinct phrase.

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Jun 1998 10:47:29 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: "You da man."

I believe my peers and I caught onto to "you da man" from Spike Lee's movie
"Do The Right Thing" which has a scene of two black men arguing about which
of them, really and truly, was "da man."

MOOKIE: You da man.

BUGGIN OUT: You da man.

MOOKIE: No you da man.

BUGGIN OUT: No you da man.

MOOKIE: No you da man.

BUGGIN OUT: No I'm just a struggling black man tryin' to keep his dick hard in
a cruel and harsh world.... whassup with the white boy?

The movie came out in 1989, and for those of who stepped out into the world at
that time (usually by entering college), it was a defining, informing movie. It
demonstrated strife inside of the black community that people like me (white,
semi-rural, middle class, Midwestern) didn't know existed, partly because we had
perceived the black community as a monolith of thought and opinion. "You da man"
and a few other lines of the movie were easy hooks into something foreign.

I wonder how we could gauge how much impact that movie had on the use of
"you da man?"

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Jun 1998 16:25:21 +1000
From:    Ross Chambers <maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Going postal in Oz

"Going postal" heard in Australia, on Australian Broadcasting
Corporation Radio National "AM" June 6, 1998--in connection with one Mr
Siefer (?) of the US Library of Congress, appealing against his
dismissal after being assessed as being likely to "go postal"

I'm pleased to say that a detailed explanation of this expression by the
writer of the news story was deemed necessary, the phenomenon--in
Australia Post, or elsewhere in Oz, being unknown. (so far!)

The excellent ADS search (thanks) found many posts on the expression, I
could only scan a few, but note some from January 1996.

Kind regards - Ross

--

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Ross Chambers           Sydney       Australia
maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ozemail.com.au

"L'Australia non e solo agli antipodi, e lontana da tutto,
  talora anche da sa stessa."

(Australia is not only  at the Antipodes, she is away from everything,
sometimes even from herself)

Umberto Eco

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:13:13 -0400
From:    "Margaret G. Lee -English" <mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.HAMPTONU.EDU>
Subject: Re: "You the man"

It's interesting that the broader speech community has adopted "You da
man."  Traditionally, AAVE expressions with obvious grammatical "errors"
(such as the absent copula) are not accepted or imitated by
mainstream speakers except in derision.  In some instances, they feel
compelled to  "correct" it from "You da man" to "You're the man" or "You
are the man."

Margaret Lee
Hampton University

On Tue, 9 Jun3 1998, Gerald Cohen wrote:

> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:20:50 -0500
> From: Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
> To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: "You the man"
>
>    Avi Arditti, who inquired about "You the man!',  has sent me a helpful
> follow-up note.  It indicates that this expression can be added to the list
> of African-American contributions to the broader speech community, even if
> the item is not yet standard English.
> >
> >The thankful car owner was a young white man, and I've heard other white
> >people use it recently, so perhaps this century-old expression has finally
> >hit mainstream!
> >
> --Gerald Cohen
>
>
>
>
> gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:36:22 -0400
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: "You the man"

Dave Letterman uses the phrase frequently, usually in a running exchange
with Paul Shaffer.  I'm never quite sure whether they're using it
derisively or mockingly or not....


At 03:13 PM 6/9/98 -0400, you wrote:
>It's interesting that the broader speech community has adopted "You da
>man."  Traditionally, AAVE expressions with obvious grammatical "errors"
>(such as the absent copula) are not accepted or imitated by
>mainstream speakers except in derision.  In some instances, they feel
>compelled to  "correct" it from "You da man" to "You're the man" or "You
>are the man."
>
>Margaret Lee
>Hampton University
>
>On Tue, 9 Jun3 1998, Gerald Cohen wrote:
>
>> Date: Tue, 9 Jun 1998 09:20:50 -0500
>> From: Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
>> To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
>> Subject: Re: "You the man"
>>
>>    Avi Arditti, who inquired about "You the man!',  has sent me a helpful
>> follow-up note.  It indicates that this expression can be added to the list
>> of African-American contributions to the broader speech community, even if
>> the item is not yet standard English.
>> >
>> >The thankful car owner was a young white man, and I've heard other white
>> >people use it recently, so perhaps this century-old expression has finally
>> >hit mainstream!
>> >
>> --Gerald Cohen
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu
>>
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:54:32 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: "You the man"

At 3:36 PM -0400 6/9/98, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>Dave Letterman uses the phrase frequently, usually in a running exchange
>with Paul Shaffer.  I'm never quite sure whether they're using it
>derisively or mockingly or not....
>
>
>At 03:13 PM 6/9/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>It's interesting that the broader speech community has adopted "You da
>>man."  Traditionally, AAVE expressions with obvious grammatical "errors"
>>(such as the absent copula) are not accepted or imitated by
>>mainstream speakers except in derision.  In some instances, they feel
>>compelled to  "correct" it from "You da man" to "You're the man" or "You
>>are the man."
>>
>>Margaret Lee
>>Hampton University


I don't detect any derision here, but something more like quotation or
ironic reference to the non-standard dialect, much as there is in the use
of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" or "It ain't over till the fat lady
sings" by speakers who don't normally have 'ain't' in their lexical
repertoire.  I'm not sure that there's a whole lot of evidence for the
claim that 'AAVE expressions with obvious grammatical "errors" (such as the
absent copula) are not accepted or imitated by mainstream speakers except
in derision.'  In fact, the item I was just alluding in relation to
"Youdaman", "my bad", is another example of dialect borrowing of the same
sort; again there's no derision or correction.  If anything, given the
makeup of the borrowing community (hip or hip-wannabe radio and TV
comedian-hosts, sportscasters, etc.) there may be a case to be made for
Trudgill-style covert prestige.

larry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Jun 1998 15:06:01 -0500
From:    "Albert E. Krahn" <krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US>
Subject: The punctuation mailing list

Thanks, apparently to Alan Slotkin, for mentioning the existence of punct-l
in NADS 30.2 (May 1998).

Indeed. we could use a few more subscribers interested in the theoretical
aspects of American English punctuation. At present, we have about 200
subscribers.
----------------------
To subscribe, email
     majordomo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]milwaukee.tec.wi.us
message
     subscribe punct-l <yourid[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yourdomain>

For the digest version, substitute punct-l-digest for punct-l.
-----------------
akra

Albert E. Krahn ~ Chair, Department of English
Milwaukee Area Technical College ~ 700 W. State St.
Milwaukee WI 53233 ~ 414/ W297-6519/ F297-7990
krahna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]milwaukee.tec.wi.us
Owner PUNCT-L, a mailing list for punctuation

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Jun 1998 17:27:28 -0400
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: "You the man"

Larry may be on the right track (though I'm not entirely convinced) with
Dave Letterman, who likes to affect his Hoosier roots from time to time:
"Or as they say in Indiana, 'spayshul'; so-and-so "needs fixed"; and even
positive 'anymore', which totally confused the audience once (I can't
recall the sentence, but the lack of a negative threw the hearers off).
And of course he uses 'ain't' regularly, a la covert prestige.


At 03:54 PM 6/9/98 -0400, you wrote:
>At 3:36 PM -0400 6/9/98, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>>Dave Letterman uses the phrase frequently, usually in a running exchange
>>with Paul Shaffer.  I'm never quite sure whether they're using it
>>derisively or mockingly or not....
>>
>>
>>At 03:13 PM 6/9/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>>It's interesting that the broader speech community has adopted "You da
>>>man."  Traditionally, AAVE expressions with obvious grammatical "errors"
>>>(such as the absent copula) are not accepted or imitated by
>>>mainstream speakers except in derision.  In some instances, they feel
>>>compelled to  "correct" it from "You da man" to "You're the man" or "You
>>>are the man."
>>>
>>>Margaret Lee
>>>Hampton University
>
>
>I don't detect any derision here, but something more like quotation or
>ironic reference to the non-standard dialect, much as there is in the use
>of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" or "It ain't over till the fat lady
>sings" by speakers who don't normally have 'ain't' in their lexical
>repertoire.  I'm not sure that there's a whole lot of evidence for the
>claim that 'AAVE expressions with obvious grammatical "errors" (such as the
>absent copula) are not accepted or imitated by mainstream speakers except
>in derision.'  In fact, the item I was just alluding in relation to
>"Youdaman", "my bad", is another example of dialect borrowing of the same
>sort; again there's no derision or correction.  If anything, given the
>makeup of the borrowing community (hip or hip-wannabe radio and TV
>comedian-hosts, sportscasters, etc.) there may be a case to be made for
>Trudgill-style covert prestige.
>
>larry
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 9 Jun 1998 20:57:19 -0400
From:    Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Pansy; Irate; Internment; Hotel; Banjo; Teens; Ben Dova, et al.

Barry's posting is fascinating, as always, and I wish I had time to
respond to it more fully.  Let me make just 3 comments:

1.  The 121-year "antedating" of _irate_ is surely a misspelling.  Could
it really be _pirate master_?

2.  Barry's 1941 example of _square_ is valuable, but note that Tom
Dalzell says in _Flappers 2 Rappers_ that the term was used by Cab
Calloway in 1938.

3.  I applaud Barry's use of Web and CD-ROM tools to trace word-origins.
I discuss such research extensively in an article I have submitted to
_American Speech_, entitled "A Study in Computer-Assisted Lexicology:
Evidence on the Emergence of _Hopefully_ as a Sentence Adverb from JSTOR
and Other Electronic Resources."  In this article I trace
sentence-adverbial _hopefully_ back to 1851 using electronic resources
(well, actually, I trace it back to 1911 in the article as written, but
since I submitted it I have found an 1851 example).

I am a little puzzled by Barry's use of JSTOR to find a 1951 example of
_status symbol_ in the _British Journal of Sociology_, since the _British
Journal of Sociology_ is not covered by JSTOR (perhaps he found an article
in another journal citing the _British Journal of Sociology_) and since
the earliest usage in JSTOR of _status symbol_ is a 1946 article in the
_American Sociological Review_.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
 Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
 Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Jun 1998 to 9 Jun 1998
**********************************************
From: Automatic digest processor (6/30/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 28 Jun 1998 to 29 Jun 1998             98-06-30 00:00:12
There are 11 messages totalling 436 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. New uses for old words, or terms of art?
  2. Swing terms (August/September 1938)
  3. Another rock for Barry
  4. California -ing (2)
  5. "...And the Horse You Rode In On"
  6. Query: dipped and dyed (2)
  7. "dipped and dyed"
  8. monkey-wrench & push-up
  9. monkey-wrench

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Jun 1998 23:17:57 -0500
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: New uses for old words, or terms of art?

Last week, the classified ads columns in our local newspaper (The De
Kalb Daily Chronicle, of De Kalb, Illinois) carried a term I hadn't
noted consciously before:

        HELP WANTED:  dough slapper

The ad was from a local branch of a chain of franchised pizza providers.

Today, I asked my son, who is a professional chef in Denver, to tell me
more about the term, if he  knew it.  He said:

  "It's what you think it is: a dough slapper takes a ball of dough and
slaps it in the air until it takes on the right shape for a pizza.  The
guy who does it could also be called a "dough docker".  Docking is
working a ball of dough with your fingers to get it to flatten out.  It
isn't only about pizza; you dock the dough when you make pane italiano
and other kinds of breads."

OK, but both words are new to me in the senses used here.  Are these
terms known outside commercial kitchens and pizzerias?

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Jun 1998 01:08:54 -0500
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Swing terms (August/September 1938)

Barry A. Popik wrote:
>
>     These two lists that I found today are excellent.
>     This is from SONG HITS, vol. 1, no. 9, August 1938, pg. 14, col. 3:
>
> SWING TERMS
>
> _Instrument_                _Swing Name_

--  and here I'll cut to just three terms I want to comment on:

> Guitar..........................belly fiddle or pick box (RHHDAS has a 1939
> "belly fiddle")

------  In the folksong world of the 1940's, "starvation box"
(sometimes also used
as an alternative name for accordions).

> Clarinet.........................fountain pen, or black stick (RHHDAS has no
> entry for "fountain pen," 1937 for "black stick")

-------  Starting ca. 1938-39, after the Benny Goodman concert in
Carnegie Hall,   "licorice stick", rather than "black stick".
Application was pretty general in
swing talk for about ten years, until the effective end of the Big Band
Era.  After    that "licorice stick" was sometimes used among performers
of "traditional jazz" (AKA    "Dixieland jazz"), but outside that circle
was a pretty clear marker of being    decidedly unhip.  (And "hip"
replaced "hep" with the rise of bebop, middle to late
1940s. . .  After that, anybody who said he was "hep" proved he was
not.)

> Drums...........................suitcase, skins

-------  This is the one that got me to write.  SONG HITS got this one
wrong.  "Skins"  was normal swing usage for drums, but "suitcase" shows
a definite lack of knowledge of the music scene of the 1930s and
earlier.  Nobody who knew the scene would have called a drum a suitcase
-- but there were people who used suitcases for drums.

People called "suitcase drummers" played on a hardsided suitcase,
usually one of made of cheap cardboard with a protective paper cover
sealed in shellac or some other coating.  Although suitcase drummers did
use standard drumsticks on occasion, they did most of their drumming
with a pair of straw whiskbrooms.

Suitcase drummers frequently appear on records from the 1920s, when
standard drums strained the capabilities of acoustic recording
techniques.  (They are usually just identified as drummers, without
specific mention that they played suitcases, not drums, on the actual
recordings.)  If real drums were recorded with early recording
equipment, they could blast the recording stylus completely out of
making a usable groove.  Where real drums were used, drummers
compensated for the shortcomings of recording machinery by using brushes
rather than drumsticks.  That tended to reduce the driving force of drum
rhythms.  A suitcase, on the other hand, could provide a driving beat
without overwhelming the apparatus.  (Suitcase drummers didn't always
use the brushing end of whiskbrooms, either.  The other end of the
broom gave a strong, percussive tom-tom sound that didn't disrupt
recordings.)

In the late 1940s, there was a strange cat on the edges of the Chicago
jazz scene named Joe Klee (pronounced to rhyme with "free", not "fray")
who called himself "the last of the suitcase drummers".  Joe used to say
that his instrument gave him an advantage over drummers who used a
standard drum set: "All I have to do is hit a town, check into a hotel,
unpack, and I've got my instrument all set up.  Now what bass plucker
can say that?"

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Jun 1998 04:03:50 -0500
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Another rock for Barry

We just came across some old sheet music for a song called "Rock me in a
cradle of Kalua"; words by Al Bryan, music by Pete Wendling, copyright
1931 by Irving Berlin, Inc., Music Publishers, 1607 Broadway, New York.
Pictured on the cover is a photo signed "Sincerely Ben Bernie".

Looking at the music, I guarantee it's not rock'n'roll.  It's a waltz. I
give both the words and the music very high marks: they are the epitome
of cliches.  (See postscript.) The piano arrangement (and the "original
Ukulele arrangement by MAY SINGHI BREEN") are equally boring.  Ugh!

Hey, if it's that bad, why are we giving it house room?  I guess because
it came in a box I bought at a household auction.  It had some great
original sheet music from the same era: Stardust (1929); I don't know
why (1931); etc.  One of these days I'll dump the ones I don't care
about on a musical nostalgia dealer we know.  With luck, he'll trade me
for some of the great jazz sides he stocks.

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

P.S.:  Here are the words.  Decide for yourself:

"There's a land of dreams
Paradise it seems
Calling to me o'er the sea
Under shelt'ring palms
I see shelt'ring arms
Waiting to hear my plea.

Neath the Pagan Moon
Let me lie and croon
This tender song through the night
'Neath a starlit sky
watching dreams go by
Rocked in the pale moonlight.

CHORUS:

Rock me in a cradle of Kalua
And just let me dream of love
Let me live forever in Kalua
With someone I'm thinking of.

I will forget
Cares that I knew
Where only skies are blue

Rock me in a cradle of Kalua
And just let my dreams come true."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:57:18 EDT
From:    "(Dale F. Coye)" <Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: California -ing

I know some people here in NJ who use EEN for -ing, but they have Southern
California parents.   What's interesting to me about this form is that I
believe it has the dental nasal rather than the velar, but I don't think
anyone would write it with the apostrophe (-in') and I don't think it is
stigmatized like older /-In/

Dale Coye
The College of NJ

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Jun 1998 08:39:31 +0000
From:    Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: California -ing

I seem to have heard this as an idiolectal variant all my life, so it
never occurred to me that it was regional.  But I grew up in California
and Oregon and now live in Oregon, so I can't be sure I've heard it
outside of the West Coast.  I can attest that it's alive and well in
Oregon and has been since my childhood 40-50 years ago.  I associate it
with children's speech, as if it's something most people eventually
outgrow--though I haven't a shred of actual evidence for this.

Peter

On Mon, 29 Jun 1998 11:57:18 EDT "(Dale F. Coye)" <Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
wrote:

> I know some people here in NJ who use EEN for -ing, but they have
> Southern California parents.   What's interesting to me about this form
> is that I believe it has the dental nasal rather than the velar, but I
> don't think anyone would write it with the apostrophe (-in') and I
> don't think it is stigmatized like older /-In/
>
> Dale Coye
> The College of NJ

----------------------
Peter A. McGraw
Linfield College
McMinnville, Oregon
pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linfield.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Jun 1998 16:34:58 -0400
From:    Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: "...And the Horse You Rode In On"

On Sun, 28 Jun 1998, Barry A. Popik wrote:

>      Safire credits Fred Shapiro's research with the earliest "high moment,"
> although my guess is that it dates much earlier than the Civil War.

Safire's _Southern Literary Messenger_ citation (I think it was 1839, I
don't have the information handy) was supplied by me also, so Safire and I
both already have it before the Civil War.  But I'm sure it goes back
centuries before that, I just gave Safire what I was able to find in a
half-hour of research (he was under deadline, as usual).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
 Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
 Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Jun 1998 18:58:40 -0500
From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
Subject: Query: dipped and dyed

    A colleague today told me that an old lady he knows recently said: "I'm
a Methodist dipped and dyed,"  the meaning being "I'm a Methodist through
and through."  And he asked me just what "dipped and dyed" literally refers
to.

    I'm not sure.  Can anyone help?  "Dyed" looks like "dyed-in-the-wool,"
and I suppose that the wool could be dipped into the dye.  But this is just
thinking out loud.  "Dipped" could be "baptized," but then "dyed" wouldn't
make sense. Tallow candles are formed by being dipped, but are they dyed
too?

    Has anyone else ever heard "dipped and dyed?"   Any help at all would
be appreciated.

--Gerald Cohen



gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Jun 1998 18:47:18 -0700
From:    "A. Vine" <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: Query: dipped and dyed

Gerald Cohen wrote:
>
>     A colleague today told me that an old lady he knows recently said: "I'm
> a Methodist dipped and dyed,"  the meaning being "I'm a Methodist through
> and through."  And he asked me just what "dipped and dyed" literally refers
> to.
>
>     I'm not sure.  Can anyone help?  "Dyed" looks like "dyed-in-the-wool,"
> and I suppose that the wool could be dipped into the dye.  But this is just
> thinking out loud.  "Dipped" could be "baptized," but then "dyed" wouldn't
> make sense. Tallow candles are formed by being dipped, but are they dyed
> too?
>
>     Has anyone else ever heard "dipped and dyed?"   Any help at all would
> be appreciated.
>

Wool is a reasonable guess.  In order to prepare wool for spinning, it goes
through the following process:

1.  The sheep is sheared.
2.  The fleece is inspected and unusable bits are thrown out.
3.  The wool is washed using a dipping process.  (If wool is agitated, it binds
together and becomes felt.  This is, in fact, how felt is made.)
4.  The wool is dyed.
5.  The dyed wool is carded or combed.

The dyeing can occur after the spinning, but this can produce a different
effect.

However, I have no idea if this is where the expression comes from.

Andrea - sometimes a spinster

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Jun 1998 21:39:40 -0500
From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
Subject: Re: "dipped and dyed"

  My thanks to Andrea Vine for her ads-l reply to my query on "(I'm a
Methodist), dipped and dyed." Here now is a second message I received, for
which I am also grateful:

>From_: gscole[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ark.ship.edu  Mon Jun 29 19:15:03 1998
>Date: Mon, 29 Jun 1998 20:15:21 -0400
>From: GSC <gscole[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ark.ship.edu>
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu
>Subject: Dipped &
>
>Gerald,
>Both of the following sites refer to dipped and dyed items.  Not sure of
>the "full" meaning, but items could be dyed with spray, or other
>methods, rather than being dipped.  I presume that dipping, in a vat,
>tub, or trough, would be thorough.
>
>Hope that the information helps.
>
>George S. Cole   gscole[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ark.ship.edu
>
>http://www.govettb.org.nz/collection/hellyar.html
>
>http://www.greenpeace.org/~usa/updates/magazine/m954411.html



gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 30 Jun 1998 10:06:09 -0700
From:    Yongwei Gao <951208[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FUDAN.EDU.CN>
Subject: Re: monkey-wrench & push-up

Dear all,

Have you ever seen the following two words:
1. monkey-wrench      It s a mushrooming p.r. cloud that threatens to
damage Microsoft both explicitly (if Justice decides to monkey-wrench
Gates  Windows 98 plans) and implicitly, by hampering his ability to
influence future legislation on such crucial Infobahn issues as
copyright protection and encryption. (97/11/24 Time p78)  The word
should mean "to destroy, to sabotage", but does it have any bearing to
"monkey-wrencher' used in environmental contexts?
2. push-up       Let them entertain you, because its  their raison
d etre to meander through after-hours private parties at L.A. s hot
boites#-Martini, Viper, Babylon, or any place kept dark enough to
confess your sins in#-with the gloriously dubious purpose of providing a
shot of push-up glamour to the surroundings. (8/94 Esquire p63) Has it
obtained a new meaning?

regards,

Yongwei Gao
Fudan University,
Shanghai, China

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 29 Jun 1998 22:26:43 -0500
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: monkey-wrench

Yongwei Gao wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
> Have you ever seen the following two words:
> 1. monkey-wrench      It s a mushrooming p.r. cloud that threatens to
> damage Microsoft both explicitly (if Justice decides to monkey-wrench
> Gates  Windows 98 plans) and implicitly, by hampering his ability to
> influence future legislation on such crucial Infobahn issues as
> copyright protection and encryption. (97/11/24 Time p78)  The word
> should mean "to destroy, to sabotage", but does it have any bearing to
> "monkey-wrencher' used in environmental contexts?

A monkey wrench is a tool with and adjustable head.  A single monkey
wrench can be used to turn different sizes of nus and bolts without a
need for changing wrenches.

The secondary meaning of "monkey wrench" is, indeed, "sabotage".  It is
a shortened form of the phrase "throw a monkey wrench in the machinery".

British English calls the tool a "spanner", and the parallel British
phrase is "throw a spanner in the works".

The British phrase thus makes sense out why Beatle John Lennon chose "A
Spaniard in the works" as a book title.

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Jun 1998 to 29 Jun 1998
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======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (6/29/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 27 Jun 1998 to 28 Jun 1998             98-06-29 00:00:07
There are 7 messages totalling 314 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. More on incent
  2. Swing terms (August/September 1938)
  3. "...And the Horse You Rode In On"
  4. Billy B. Van, "skiddoo" and "patsy"
  5. more on 'grow' (2)
  6. Early GROWS 'cause to increase/develop'

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Jun 1998 00:08:50 -0400
From:    Alice Faber <faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU>
Subject: More on incent

Here's a live sighting, not so much as evidence of the word's existence but
rather of what someone thinks of it, from a police procedural novel, _Murder
Book_, by Richard Rayner, Houghton Mifflin, 1997.

"Larry Murakami was chief of detectives and, to be honest, not much of a
detective. He was cool and reserved, neither truthful nor trustworthy, a small
man with dark eyes that missed very little. I liked him. He used "incent" as a
verb. Larry had been my great ally in attaining the promotion over Drew. He
kept a TV in his office to follow the news and, if he didn't get home in time,
to be sure not to miss the latest episode of Jeopardy. He was devoted to
Jeopardy because he generally knew more answers than the contestants. Politics
was his game, though he also patrolled the aisles of discount warehouses in
search of designer suits with the labels torn out, or, during the sales, Fred
Segal, with his two teenage daughters in tow. Three years running he'd won the
award for Best-Dressed Detective of the Year." (p. 85-86)

OF course, what I can't figure out is whether the narrator likes this guy
*because* he uses "incent" as a verb or despite it.

Alice Faber

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:58:46 EDT
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Swing terms (August/September 1938)

    These two lists that I found today are excellent.
    This is from SONG HITS, vol. 1, no. 9, August 1938, pg. 14, col. 3:

SWING TERMS

_Instrument_                _Swing Name_
Piano..........................mahogany (not in RHHDAS--ed.)
Guitar..........................belly fiddle or pick box (RHHDAS has a 1939
"belly fiddle")
Accordion....................push-box
Violin...........................scratch-box
Trumpet........................horn-valves (not in RHHDAS)
Clarinet.........................fountain pen, or black stick (RHHDAS has no
entry for "fountain pen," 1937 for "black stick")
Saxophone....................reeds or fog-horns (RHHDAS has from 1919)
Bass fiddle....................dog-house (RHHDAS has from 1920)
Vibraphone....................vibes or iron-works ("iron-works" not in RHHDAS)
Xylophone......................wood-pile
Trombone......................slush-pump
Oboe.............................thermometer
Drums...........................suitcase, skins
Girl Vocalist...................canary (RHHDAS has from 1886)
Dancers.........................rug-cutters

     This is from SONG HITS, vol. 1, no. 10, September 1938, pg. 16, col. 3:

_POPULAR SWING WORDS_

IN THE GROOVE--Co-ordination--instruments must blend their parts with the
greatest perfection to the tempo set by the rhythm section.
GUT BUCKET--Low-down, raucous and blary music.
BARREL HOUSE--Slow heavy tempo featuring solo work by the pianist and others.
BOOGIE-WOOGIE--Piano playing that has an extra moving bass harmony.
CLAM BAKE--An unsuccessful attempt to get a group of men together to improvise
a standard number.
TAKES OFF--An instrumentalist plays a solo changing the melody to suit his
individuality with short figures known as "riffs" or "licks."
SOLID--A mild and perfunctory way of approving a rendition.
SEND--If a performance sneds you into ecstasy.
SOLID-SENDER--A superlative form of praise.
KILLER-DILLER--If you want to compliment an artist personally call him a
"killer-diller."
OUT OF THE WORLD--Reserved for extreme cases of perfection.  Woe to the one
who uses it on a mediocre performance.
HEP--People who know just what to say at the right time.
CATS--Musicians in a swing band.
UNHEP--One who doesn't know what to say at the right time (may also be called
"icky").
HEP-CAT--A musician who plays swing very well.
CORNY--Distasteful music.
HE'S A CHARACTER--An eccentric person.
LONG-HAIRS--Serious musicians who play symphonies.
SCHMALTZ--Popular music played over sweetly.
LIFT--An entire band play as a single unit in a jumpy, gay tempo.
THE JOINT IS JUMPIN--Is what the audience usually shouts if the band is
playing in furious tempo that fills the room with contagious rhythm.
ROCK ME WITH RHYTHM--When the tempo was slower, but just as firm, with a
slight lilt.  (Like rockabye baby?--ed.)
HE PLAYS A MESS OF HORN--This is usually to applaud a good trumpet player.
YOUR (sic) A KILLER-DILLER, MISS MILLER--This is used to praise a girl singer
using Miss Miller, regardless of her name.  If singer is a male change to Mr.
Miller.
DIGGIN THE CATS--When you visit a place for the purpose of hearing a band
play.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Jun 1998 03:03:19 EDT
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: "...And the Horse You Rode In On"

     William Safire's last few columns have been extremely weak.  Today's
column was inspired by Ken Starr and James Carville--Washington, D. C. AGAIN.
     Safire credits Fred Shapiro's research with the earliest "high moment,"
although my guess is that it dates much earlier than the Civil War.
     The second part of the column is about "...and the horse you rode in on."
It's The New York Times, so we don't have the full phrase:

     "F--- you!  And the horse you rode in on!"

     And if you don't have that, why run the thing?
     This is probably an extension of a similar, very popular phrase from THE
WIZARD OF OZ:

     "I'll get you, my pretty!  And your little dog Toto, too!"

      THE WIZARD OF OZ became _really_ popular after it was shown on
television in the 1950s and 1960s.  Other popular tv shows were westerns--that
had lots and lots of horses.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
      Sunday's (28 June 1998) New York Post, pg. 11, "Neal Travis' New York,"
states that Lauren Hutton is the woman "for whom the term 'supermodel' was
invented."   As I researched in great detail last year, the first "supermodel"
was Naomi Sims.
      The New York Post and New York Daily News have been putting the New York
Yankees on the front AND back pages of their newspapers, hyping the "Subway
Series."  As I researched in great detail...

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Jun 1998 03:07:21 EDT
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Billy B. Van, "skiddoo" and "patsy"

     Billy B. Van is a wonderful find!
     A very fragile, voluminous clipping file in the Lincoln Center Performing
Arts Library (closing for renovations July 18) was available and contained the
following items.
     The origin of Van's stage name is in the GREEN BOOK, August 1909, "Good
Cheer as a Remedy" by Billy B. Van, pp. 443-448 (pg. 448):

     That reminds me of the quick manner in which I lost my name, years ago,
in Philadelphia.
     It was in 1879.  J. C. Stewart--"Fatty" Stewart--was putting on a
performance of "Pinafore," and wanted some boys.  I responded.  I was a little
kiddie then, and when Stewart asked me my name, after engaging me, I answered
proudly:
     "William Webster Vandegrift."
     "Not on the program," he replied with a smile.  "You'll be Willie Van in
this show."
     So I made my first appearance as Willie Van, and was paid the princely
salary of five dollars every Saturday night.
     A little later the "Willie" became changed into "Billy," and a few years
later, because my mail became mixed with the mail of the other Billy Van (a
minstrel--ed.), I inserted "B." in my name.  I have remained Billy B. Van ever
since, and I sometimes forget that it is not my real name.

     A useful article about Van's humor in the "Pittsburg Leader, Dec. 29,
1911" (the clipping file doesn't always provide the source or date or page
number or column) is this:

_OLD JOKE IN A NEW DRESS_
_STILL DOES GOOD SERVICE_
So Declares Billy B. Van, the Popular Comedian
     (...)  "The actor never calls jokes by their proper names, referring to
them as 'gags' or 'wheezes.'  A joke intended for a particularly bright and
intelligent audience is styled a 'flip gag.'  The actor is quick to form an
estimate of a crowd, and if he is an intelligent chap he knows to a nicety the
kind of jokes he can 'put across,' to use the idiom of the footlights.  Negro
humor, and this includes most of the patter heard in minstrelsy, is known to
the profession as 'gumbo.'  Broad jokes are referred to under the general term
'bosky.'  I don't know who originated these terms, but they were in use when I
first entered the business many years ago."

     A nicely preserved theatrical advertisement was this:

Season 1904-1905
     Sullivan, Harris & Woods offer Billy B. Van in a new novel musical comedy
entitled "Patsy Bolivar."
      (Below Van's photo--ed.)  "The Original Patsy."

     I don't know if the play was titled PATSY BOLIVAR--that's the character's
name in several plays.  THE ERRAND BOY by George Totten Smith contained
possibly both a "Patsy" character and the word "skiddoo."  Van's "Patsy"
character was also in PATSY IN POLITICS and BOLIVAR'S BUSY DAY.
    The Indiana Morning Star, 31 March 1906:

_The Man Who Invented a Word_
_Which Is Known From Coast to Coast_
     It is not every man who gets to invent a word which is adopted by the
people generally just as the right word for the right place.  This honor,
however, if it be an honor to be a dealer in slang, has been won by Billy B.
Van, a comedian who will return to the Park next week in "The Errand Boy,"
when he will have a brand new song written from him by Indianapolis writers,
ased on the words "skiddoo."  The word went the ropund of the stage first
after Billy Van launched it....
     (Ran out of time to finish copying, to be continued--ed.)

     Van had a large estate in George's Mills, New Hampshire, where he
operated a farm, a resort, a casino, and a movie studio.  The town's famous
little red schoolhouse was the scene of the real Mary of "Mary had a little
lamb" fame.  Part of the town voted in 1912 to rename itself as "Van Harbor."
     It was said that Van never stopped moving on the stage.  His face and
body made rubbery contortions.   If the career of this comic who popularized
"skiddoo" and "patsy" is ever to be condensed into a Broadway play, there is
one person who is EXACTLY like him.
     Jim Carrey!

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:16:28 -0500
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: more on 'grow'

Not an abbiguity.  A polysemy.  People have recently started using the verb
'grow' in a new sense -- "to cause growth, or an increase in growth rate,
to occur."  The extension of the agricultural term (planting seeds and
nurturing plants) to business would be in the use of "seed money" to grow a
completely new business.

DMLance

>Apparently, some native speakers of AmEng do not think there is any
>semantic ambiguity in the tr. v. 'grow' when it is used with non-agri
>objects. I continue to think that there is. Consider a sentence I read in
>today's Knoxville News-Sentinel:
>
>> It plans to add some technical employees in the Knoxville office, but
>> the firm is not interested in growing a large employee base.
>
>The sense appears to be that the co. is not interested in increasing its
>number of employees. And the sentence seems to emphasize the lack of
>interest in a new entity -- "a large amployee base" -- not a lack of
>interest in increasing the size of its present employee base.
>
>Am I making sense?
>
>In other words, when we "grow the economy," we seem to "increase the size
>of" the economy or "improve the economy." There is no sense of "improve"
>in the above example, I think.
>
>???
>
>Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Jun 1998 02:21:35 -0500
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: more on 'grow'

P.S.

> Consider a sentence I read in
>today's Knoxville News-Sentinel:
>
>> It plans to add some technical employees in the Knoxville office, but
>> the firm is not interested in growing a large employee base.

Seems to me the Volunteer just wanted to prance around on the keyboard with
a new term.  I don't think the term fits here.  Kind of like when Americans
20 years ago started using the before-then-British 'early on' to mean
simply 'early' rather than 'in the early part of a development.'

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 28 Jun 1998 15:16:48 EDT
From:    Ron Butters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Early GROWS 'cause to increase/develop'

In a message dated 6/28/98 3:21:50 AM, Don Lance wrote:

<< People have recently started using the verb
'grow' in a new sense -- "to cause growth, or an increase in growth rate,
to occur.">>

Recently?????

Check out the OED s.v. GROW 14d ('to cause to develop into') which gives an
1844 cite ("It requires a length of time to grow the boys . . . into men");
14e ('to cause to increase,  to enlarge') is listed as obsolete, but the
innovative sense that Don mentions is found in Caxton ("When David had reigned
vii year in Ebron he grewe and amended moche this city"--481).

Am I the only person who vaguely remembers having had this conversation a
number of years ago, specifically in the context of politicians discussing
plans to "grow the economy"? My own vague memory is that GROW in this sense
has been around for a generation (and commented on before, perhaps, e.g., in
"Among the New Words"). Has anyone checked an unabridged American dictionary
for this? Checked the AMERICAN SPEECH indexes for ATNW commentary?

------------------------------

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From: Automatic digest processor (6/28/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 26 Jun 1998 to 27 Jun 1998             98-06-28 00:00:36
There is one message totalling 31 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. more on 'grow'

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 27 Jun 1998 10:27:46 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: more on 'grow'

Apparently, some native speakers of AmEng do not think there is any
semantic ambiguity in the tr. v. 'grow' when it is used with non-agri
objects. I continue to think that there is. Consider a sentence I read in
today's Knoxville News-Sentinel:

> It plans to add some technical employees in the Knoxville office, but
> the firm is not interested in growing a large employee base.

The sense appears to be that the co. is not interested in increasing its
number of employees. And the sentence seems to emphasize the lack of
interest in a new entity -- "a large amployee base" -- not a lack of
interest in increasing the size of its present employee base.

Am I making sense?

In other words, when we "grow the economy," we seem to "increase the size
of" the economy or "improve the economy." There is no sense of "improve"
in the above example, I think.

???

Bethany

------------------------------

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From: Automatic digest processor (6/27/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 25 Jun 1998 to 26 Jun 1998             98-06-27 00:00:16
There are 13 messages totalling 468 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Who was Titmouse?
  2. Hello; Skidoo; Rock and Roll
  3. "incent" (2)
  4. California
  5. "grow" and "incent"
  6. DARK L
  7. News from the American Council of Learned Societies
  8. "grow"
  9. portobello (3)
 10. FWIW: The Language of Fund Raising

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 25 Jun 1998 23:16:08 -0500
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Who was Titmouse?

I've exhausted myself and three refrence librarians trying to locate a
reference.  The following quote + quote is in some editing I'm doing.

--------------------
I found the following in the monthly magazine of San Francisco, The
Pioneer, for April, 1854:

"Pike" is a genius. He is wrapped up, body and soul, in the state of
Missouri. He forms a class in America which is sui generis. He is as
clanish as a Scotchman. Wherever he goes, he carries with him those
unmistakable characteristics which mark him as from Pike County. His very
gospel is but a paraphrase of Titmouse's poem:

        Pike, O! Pike, it is my name
                Missourer is my nation
        Pike County is my dwelling place,
                And Pike is my salvation!

One of this genus "Pike," driving a team across the "perairie" one pleasant
day, met another driver....

----------------------

The article in which the quoted quote appears is by Allen Walker Read, and
we're publishing it in the Missouri Folklore Society Journal.  The article
is about 'Pike', as you might have guessed.

I don't need any more information on Pike -- just a lead on Titmouse.  I've
been too busy with other things to learn how to do sophisticated web
searches like Barry Popik and others on ads-l.

When Pike County, Missouri Territory, was established in 1818, no western
boundary was specified -- no doubt because the area hadn't been surveyed,
and Kansas and Nebraska hadn't even been thought of.

BTW, is 'piker' used nowadays by people under 40?

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Jun 1998 03:04:25 EDT
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Hello; Skidoo; Rock and Roll

HELLO (continued)

January 1844, KNICKERBOCKER, pg. 37:  "Hallo!"
January 1844, KNICKERBOCKER, pg. 42:  "'Hallo! Harry; is this you?'"
January 1844, KNICKERBOCKER, pg. 68:  "'Halloo!  what's this?'"
January 1844, KNICKERBOCKER, pg. 86:  "'Halloo, master!'"
February 1844, KNICKERBOCKER, pg. 121:  "'Hello! Bill Jones.'"
March 1844, KNICKERBOCKER, pg. 290:  "'Halloa! TIBBS!'"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
SKIDOO (continued)

     Billy B. Van (1870-1950) is the author of SNAP OUT OF IT! (1933) and THE
SERIOUSNESS OF BEING FUNNY (193-?).  I'll check out both in the NYPL on
Saturday.
     Neither of these two obituaries mentions "skidoo," but both show he had
been popular at that time period.  This is from the New York Times, 17
November 1950, pg. 27, col. 3:

_BILLY B. VAN DIES:_
_ONE-TIME COMEDIAN_
     NEWPORT, N. H., Nov. 16 (UP)--Billy B. Van, 72 years old, one of the
country's top comedians at the turn of the century, died of heart seizure
tonight at a Newport hospital.
     A long-time trouper and lecturer on Yankee philosophy, he was
instrumental in the formation of the Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer Corporation and once
toured the country in vaudeville with late heavyweight boxing champion James
J. Corbett.
     A friend of Presidents Calvin Coolidge and Woodrow Wilson, Mr. Van was
widely known in theatrical circles.  He started his stage career when he was
only 6 years old in a Gilbert and Sullivan production in 1884.
     In 1915 he helped found the Equity Motion Picture Company at Geroge's
Mills, N. H., which later moved to California.
     He retired from the stage about 1927 whe he organized the Pine Tree Soap
Company.  Last year he resigned from the company and organized Vanpine, Inc.,
another soap concern.
     He leaves a wife, Grace (Walsh) Van, a New York musical comedy star at
the time of her husband's peak popularity.

    The VARIETY obituary, 22 November 1950, pg. 63, col. 1, adds that Van had
once served as mayor of Newport.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
ROCK AND ROLL (continued)

     Amazon.com has a new music division.  I tried it.  ROCK BEFORE ELVIS,
BEFORE LITTLE RICHARD, BEFORE CHUCK BERRY, BO DIDLEY OR BILL HALEY arrived in
about four days--$17.94 for two CDs, tax included.
     Here are some of the many liner notes:

(cover)  YOU ARE HOLDING IN YOUR HANDS TWO CD'S WITH 44 _VERY_ EARLY _ROCK AND
ROLL_ RECORDINGS, ALL MADE BEFORE 1952.  NO TIRED, SLOW BLUES.  NO JAZZ.  NO
DOO-WOP.  NO CHICAGO BLUES.  NO BIG BAND ERA.  NO SISSY VOCAL GROUPS.  NO
JUMPING JIVE.  NOTHING BUT HARD DRIVING _ROCK AND ROLL_ RECORDINGS MADE WHEN
_ROCK AND ROLL_ STILL HAD NO NAME.   (...)
     IT INCLUDES THE VERY FIRST _ROCK AND ROLL_ RECORDING EVER MADE (1929).
IT IS BY FAR THE BEST "ROOTS OF ROCK" PACKAGE EVER PRODUCED, BECAUSE IT IS
_REAL ROCK AND ROLL_, NOT "ROOTS."

("I Want to Rock and Roll" by Scatman Crothers, late 1940's)
     This recording was made when "rock and roll" was the name of a dance.

("Leroy Sent Me" by Joe Brown and his Kool Kats, 1949)
     This local Detroit recording was for Leroy WHite, a DJ there, who had a
show on WJLB radio called "Rocking With Leroy."

("Sausage Rock" by Doc Sausage, Jan. 2, 1950)
     Cut two days after the end of the rocking 40's, this track ushers in a
new decade with instructions on a dance step called "rocking."  This dance was
later to be made widely popular by disc jockey Allen Freed and his "Moondog's
Rock and Roll Dance Party," which he produced both live and on radio, starting
in 1952.  It is from this dance that the music received its name.  While
"rocking" primarily meant to dance, the other meaning can be deduced by
considering "sausage."

("The Boogie Rocks" by Albert Ammons, Feb. 12, 1944)
     In 1944, boogie woogie was already almost half a century old, though it
had gone under many different names before Pine Top Smith gave it a permanent
one in 1928.  One of those early names was "the rocks."

("Rockola" by Joe Lutcher and his Society Cats, Aug. 1949)
     The song included here refers to the Rockola brand of juke box, common in
the rocking 40's.  (The jukebox caompany was founded in the 1920's by David C.
Rockola, who died in 1993 at the age of 96, and always maintained that his
name was just a coincidence.

     The word "boogie" originated from the 14th century English word "bugge,"
which was pronounced with the final "e" not silent.  It was also spelled bogy,
bogey, booger, also akin to bugaboo, bugbear, and bogeyman.  The word meant
phantom or ghost, also a scarecrow.  (...)
     The expression "rock and roll" has only a slightly newer origin.
Starting in the late 20's, many blues and boogie musicians in Memphis and
Northwest Mississippi's Yazoo Delta, "The Delta" of blues, began using the
word "rocking" in their up-tempo songs in addition to the word "boogie." Many
delta and Memphis blues of the period can be heard in records with lyrics
mentioning things such as rocking the house, rocking blues away, rocking chair
daddy, rocking on the hill, rock me baby, etc., as far back as the earliest
recorded blues.  The word quickly caught on outside the Delta.  In 1929,
Indianapolis pianist Arthur "Montana" Taylor recorded a rock-solid boogie
piano solo he called "Detroit Rocks."  The word "rocks" in that title is
probably a noun, as "the rocks" was an early name for boogie woogie.  The word
"roll" in our context probably derives from "jelly roll," which started  out
in the late 1800's as slang for sex or the vagina.  Pianist and jazz
originator Ferdinand "Jelly Roll" Morton so named himself early in his career,
perhaps around 1907, and after him, the term "jelly roll" or just "roll"
became to mean the rolling sound of the right hand on the piano while certain
of Morton's jazzy blues figures were being played, as in "roll 'em, boy," or
"let 'em roll.  While the left hand was rocking, the right hand was rolling,
as illustrated here in the lyrics of track 2-05.  The first time the phrase
"rock and roll" appeared in a record, in which the phrase meant a form of
music specifically, was in the song "Rock It For Me," written in the 30's and
recorded in 1937 by Ella Fitzgerald....

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:43:10 -0400
From:    Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: "incent"

On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Bethany K. Dumas wrote:

> I suggested that it is "relatively new," and teh evidence that I have
> seen suggests that it is. I don't recall any instances in the 50s or 60s
> or even 70s. I associate its use  with Clinton's term in office. Can
> anyone provide decades-earlier examples? I would be interested.

The earliest evidence I can find on Nexis is from Chemical Week, May 6,
1981:

"If you set realistic performance targets with enough stretch in them,
then you're trying to 'incent' the participants on things that are within
their control," says Speck.

To me the term sounds like something that might be used by economists, but
I find no early examples from a search of JSTOR, which contains extensive
historical runs of economics journals.

Perhaps Jim Rader can tell us what Merriam-Webster has as the earliest
example for _incent_ in their files.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
 Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
 Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:43:06 EDT
From:    Allyn Partin <Allynherna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: California

I've been collecting information on Los Angeles, Orange and Santa Barbara
counties.  Here are some observations and questions (probably nothing new):
--Does anybody hear "een" in place of "ing" in sentences like: I'm thinkEEN of
goEEN campEEN. ?  I know that this isn't something new, but I'm curious to
hear how common it is outside of the So. Cal. area.  I've heard it from
elementary school children-people in their mid-fifties.  What is being heard
in other parts of the country?
RE:Chain Shifting
--Also, how about words like gardEN & couldEN't with a full short e?
--I'm finding retracted short a's except before an M or N.
--The short a's before N & M, of course, are raising.
--The short e's are falling into the area formerly occupied by the short a.
--There's a very interesting lengthening "crackle" that VALLEY girls and
SURFER guys put on the stressed vowels of important words and also on some
word-final r's and l's.
Etc.
Thank you,
Allyn

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:37:18 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: "grow" and "incent"

When we grow plants, we usually start them ab initio: from seed or seedling, the
 minimal possible (or at least practical)
state of the object. If a child is given the care of a mature tomato plant, we
 can accept a proud "I grew these tomatoes!",
because the tomatoes were nonexistent (or maybe just buds) when the child took
 over, but "I grew this plant" would be
incorrect even if the plant gained inches of height and circumference under the
 child's attentions. In contrast, "growing
the [e.g., American national] economy" means inducing growth, however defined,
 in an existing and (more-or-less)
flourishing entity, and is therefore not a simple extension of the agricultural
 term.

As for Bethany's question of how this growth is to be measured, that is an
 already (un)solved problem.
We already have "the economy has grown" and "growth in/of the economy", whatever
 they may mean, and the new
transitive verb "grow [the economy]" presumably uses the same yardstick as these
 other forms of the word. Maybe
those who use the word have particular measures in mind, which you and I aren't
 familiar with. But even if they don't,
this vagueness is not germane to the construction's derivation or
 grammaticality.

-- Mark

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Jun 1998 11:47:35 EDT
From:    Allyn Partin <Allynherna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: DARK L

To: Nancy Carol Elliott
Thank you for your reply.  Perpignan does seem like the correct region.  I
certainly appreciate your help!
Best wishes, Allyn

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:38:02 EDT
From:    Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: News from the American Council of Learned Societies

(ADS belongs to ACLS)

**EXTRA! THE LATEST NEWS FROM THE ACLS**

Here is a preview of the latest news on the Website of the
American Council of Learned Societies: <http://www.acls.org>.

*ACLS ANNOUNCES FELLOWSHIP & GRANT
COMPETITIONS TO BE HELD IN 1998-99*

Information on ACLS fellowships and grants is now updated for competitions to
be
held in 1998-99.  The ACLS Fellowship Program, cornerstone of our support for
scholars in the humanities and humanities-related social sciences, was
recently
enhanced by major endowment grants of $5 million from the Andrew W. Mellon
Foundation and $4 million from the Ford Foundation, and by increased support
from our college and university Associates.  Funds have also been contributed
to
the program by the Gladys Krieble Delmas Foundation.

These grants have enabled us to increase the ACLS Fellowship stipends to
$25,000
maximum for junior scholars and to $35,000 maximum for senior scholars.  The
number of fellowships available will also increase, to at least 60.  Along
with
these increases, we are reducing the required time between supported research
leaves from 5 years to 3 years.

We are also pleased to announce a program in cooperation with the New York
Public Library. Up to five residential fellowships at the Library's new Center
for Scholars and Writers will be offered. These fellowships are intended for
scholars whose research will be enhanced by access to the collections of the
Library.

See <http://www.acls.org/fellows.htm> for further information.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:55:09 +0000
From:    Jim Rader <jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: Re: "incent"

We have not a lot of material on the verb _incent_:  five printed
cites, the earliest being June, 1993, and several comments made to
the Editiorial Dept. in reader letters and postings to our AOL
suggestion box.  The earliest such report is an interoffice memo inquiring
about the word from the former president of Merriam to the
editor-in-chief (Jan., 1992).  _Incent_ seems to be advertising- and
sales department-speak, which has probably been underrepresented in
past reading and marking here, especially during the '80's, when the
Merriam staff was small.

I had meaning to do a Nexis search on _incent_, but Fred Shapiro has
done it for me.  My Nexis searching lately has been devoted to
_Portobello (mushroom)_.  If anybody on the list has a pet theory
explaining this name, let me know.  I have only one rather tentative
hypothesis at present.

Jim Rader

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:51:14 EDT
From:    Allyn Partin <Allynherna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: "grow"

During the early 1980's I worked briefly for two word processor/scanner
companies.  I remember hearing sales reps. and managers talking about "growing
the business" & thinking that it was a strange usage.
Allyn

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Jun 1998 10:52:52 -0700
From:    "A. Vine" <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: portobello

Jim Rader wrote:
>
>
> I had meaning to do a Nexis search on _incent_, but Fred Shapiro has
> done it for me.  My Nexis searching lately has been devoted to
> _Portobello (mushroom)_.  If anybody on the list has a pet theory
> explaining this name, let me know.  I have only one rather tentative
> hypothesis at present.
>

No theory, just observations.  The name appears as "portobello", "portabella",
"portobella", and "portabello".  My understanding is that the mushroom itself
 is
just an overgrown darker strain of white button mushrooms.

As for origins of the name variations, check out:

http://www.sunspot.net/columnists/data/kasper/0114kasper.html

Andrea

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:42:48 EDT
From:    Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: FWIW: The Language of Fund Raising

So help me, a symposium "Taking Fund Raising Seriously: The Language and
Rhetoric of Fund Raising" will be held at the Indiana U Center on Philanthropy
August 28-29. Topics include
- avoiding communications mistakes
- how to professionalize the field through the use of language
- how the language of fund raising letters or the images in annual reports are
received by other cultures
Most of the speakers are English professors.

You can get more information by e-mailing Jennifer Staashelm at:
jstaashe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]iupui.edu

- Allan Metcalf

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Jun 1998 17:44:14 -0400
From:    David Bergdahl <bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: portobello

On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, A. Vine wrote:


> No theory, just observations.  The name appears as "portobello",
 "portabella",
> "portobella", and "portabello".  My understanding is that the mushroom itself
 is
> just an overgrown darker strain of white button mushrooms.
>
Isn't portobello the name of a 'cockney' open-air market in London?

Mein Leben ist nicht diese steile Stunde/ daran du mich so eilen siehst.
                                --Rainer Maria Rilke, "Das Stundenbuch"
=======================================================================
David Bergdahl          Ellis Hall 114c        Ohio University / Athens
Associate Prof/English  tel:  (740) 593-2783   fax:  (740) 593-2818
                        bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu
                    http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
=======================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 26 Jun 1998 21:39:16 -0400
From:    Alan Baragona <baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU>
Subject: Re: portobello

David Bergdahl wrote:
>
> On Fri, 26 Jun 1998, A. Vine wrote:
>
> > No theory, just observations.  The name appears as "portobello",
 "portabella",
> > "portobella", and "portabello".  My understanding is that the mushroom
 itself is
> > just an overgrown darker strain of white button mushrooms.
> >
> Isn't portobello the name of a 'cockney' open-air market in London?
>
> Mein Leben ist nicht diese steile Stunde/ daran du mich so eilen siehst.
>                                 --Rainer Maria Rilke, "Das Stundenbuch"
> =======================================================================
> David Bergdahl          Ellis Hall 114c        Ohio University / Athens
> Associate Prof/English  tel:  (740) 593-2783   fax:  (740) 593-2818
>                         bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu
>                     http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
> =======================================================================

Yes, it's the road where the market takes place.  Viz. "Bedknobs and
Broomsticks."

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Jun 1998 to 26 Jun 1998
************************************************


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======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (6/26/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 24 Jun 1998 to 25 Jun 1998             98-06-26 00:00:37
There are 16 messages totalling 556 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Dark L
  2. Flapping again
  3. ADS-L Digest - 23 Jun 1998 to 24 Jun 1998
  4. the incendiary "incent"
  5. "incent" (10)
  6. Guides to Good Digital Practice in the Humanities
  7. re 'grow' + abstract obj.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 25 Jun 1998 01:05:29 -0500
From:    Nancy Carol Elliott <elliottn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INDIANA.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dark L

Perhaps Perpignan...since Catalan has dark L.

On Tue, 23 Jun 1998, Allyn Partin wrote:

> Has anyone ever heard of a region in France noted for the frequent use of
 Dark
> L, where one would normally expect the Clear L??
> Allynherna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com        Thank you!
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:20:59 +0100
From:    Aaron Drews <aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.ED.AC.UK>
Subject: Flapping again

        Thanks to the responses concerning the article "All in a Flap".
There is now a copy somewhere in airmail land being sent to me.
        Cheers,
                Aaron

========================================================================
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
+44 (0)131 650-3485                      Departments of English Language
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron                          and Linguistics

"MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
        --Death

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:18:22 EDT
From:    Eric Marks <EricM18047[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 23 Jun 1998 to 24 Jun 1998

In a message dated 6/25/98 12:08:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU writes:

> (as in "PROPOSALS TO INCENT RENEGOTIATION," an example I
>  since saw on the web: http://www.edisonx.com/html/news/press/pool.htm).
>  This is apparently a pretty new standard term.
>  Anybody have any thoughts on or experience with this one?

Well, I've been a copywriter in the advertising and marketing businesses for
about 30 years.  I first heard "incent" used as a verb back in the early 70s,
when it became a regular part of marketing plans provided by my employer's
advertising agency.  The goal of a sales incentive program, for example, might
be stated in the agency's plan as, "To INCENT sales representatives to
increase presentations of Product X."

I've since seen the verb "incent" used in advertising, marketing and promotion
plans, and in some trade magazine articles.  But I don't like it, and I don't
use it.

Eric Marks
EricM18047[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:18:25 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: the incendiary "incent"

About a year ago, as the company linguist, I received a call from some people
 having a meeting over in the Sales
Department. Someone had proposed using this word in a memo, someone else had
 objected, and they decided to seek
an expert judgement. (This sort of thing happens to me here with some
 regularity.)

I shuddered at the word, but the context really called for something more
 concise than the VERB + "incentive" + "to" [+
Ind.Obj.] constructions. After a few moments' thought I suggested "incentivize",
 which I felt and said was acceptable
only in comparison with (for me, *)"incent": at least it is derived by an
 existing and widespread process.

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:29:34 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Re: "incent"

The problem I have with forms like "incent" is semantic: what EXACTLY does
it mean? It seems to me that it can mean variously "provide incentive" or
"provoke" or "fail to provide disincentive," etc.

The same thing happens with the relatively new tr verb "grow" as in "to
grow the economy" -- does it mean "improve the economy" [and, if so, by
whose standards?] or "increase the GNP" or "decrease inflation"??? Who
knows?

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:09:51 EDT
From:    Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Guides to Good Digital Practice in the Humanities

FYI:

                UK's ARCHAEOLOGY DATA SERVICE PUBLISHES:
         GEOGRAPHIC INFORMATION SYSTEMS--GUIDE TO GOOD PRACTICE
            <http://ads.ahds.ac.uk/project/goodguides/gis/>


                          First in series of
                       GUIDES TO GOOD PRACTICE
             PUBLISHED BY ARTS & HUMANITIES DATA SERVICE
               <http://ahds.ac.uk/public/guides.html>


First in an ambitious series of "Guides to Good Practice" to be published
by the UK's Arts & Humanities Data Service, is the Archaeology Data
Service's "GIS Guide to Good Practice."

Titles currently being prepared in this series, under the auspices of AHDS,
include the following:

ARCHAEOLOGY
*  Aerial Photography and Remote Sensing
*  Archaeological Geophysics
*  Computer Aided Design
*  Excavation and Fieldwork Archiving

HISTORY
*  Digitising history: a guide to creating electronic resources from
historical documents
*  Secondary Analysis in Historical Research
*  History GIS

PERFORMING ARTS
*  Creating digitised audio materials for use in research and teaching
*  Digital Collections in the Performing Arts:   Metadata, Management and
Minefields

TEXTUAL STUDIES
*  Creating and Documenting Electronic Texts
*  Developing Linguistic Corpora
*  Finding and Using Electronic Texts

VISUAL ARTS
*  Creating digital information for the Visual Arts: standards and best
practice
*  Using digital information in teaching and learning in the visual arts
*  Why invest in the digitisation of visual arts material?

CROSS-DISCIPLINARY GUIDES
*  Describing Resources: Dublin Core metadata
*  Guide to Good Practice in Creating a Viable Digital Resource


Further information is available on the AHDS webpage at
<http://ahds.ac.uk/public/guides.html>.  Below I include the explanatory
introduction to that page:

"The AHDS is publishing a series of Guides providing the humanities
research and teaching communities with practical instruction in applying
recognised standards and good practice to the creation and use of digital
resources.

"Some of the Guides focus on methods and applications relevant to
humanities disciplines, such as history, archaeology, visual arts,
performing arts and textual and linguistic studies. Others address those
areas which cross disciplinary boundaries. All Guides identify and explore
key issues and provide comprehensive pointers for those who need more
specific information. As such they are essential reference materials for
anyone interested in computer-assisted research and teaching in the
humanities.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 25 Jun 1998 08:58:47 +0000
From:    Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: "incent"

Gosh, I'm surprised at so many linguists (well, roughly two so far)
rejecting "incent."  C'mon, Bethany and Mark, are you sure you're not
rationalizing (linguistifying?  Or should I say "linguing"?) the secret
prescriptivist impulses we probably all harbor?

I can't help cringing at "incent," either, no matter how many times I
read it, but nevertheless if I force myself to be objective, it seems
an extremely useful, even necessary, word--far more economical than
the cumbersome "create an incentive to" (+ infinitive).

As for its semantics, I find the same elegance there.  I had never
heard the word before this discussion started, but the first time I
read it, the meaning "create an incentive to" seemed obvious and
unambiguous.

As for "incentivize," that makes me cringe even more, with that suffix
that's the shibboleth par excellence of advertising jargon.  And as for
being "derived by an existing and widespread process," maybe
back-formation isn't as widespread as suffixation, but it's certainly
"existing."  What about "intuit"?  That always makes me cringe a tiny
bit, too, but it's similarly useful and I see it's well enough
established to have made it into my first-edition AHD.

Even though "incentive" is derived from the p.p. of "incinere," I
say let's not incinerate it just yet.

Peter

On Thu, 25 Jun 1998 11:29:34 -0400 "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
wrote:

> The problem I have with forms like "incent" is semantic: what EXACTLY
> does it mean? It seems to me that it can mean variously "provide
> incentive" or "provoke" or "fail to provide disincentive," etc.
>
> The same thing happens with the relatively new tr verb "grow" as in "to
> grow the economy" -- does it mean "improve the economy" [and, if so,
> by whose standards?] or "increase the GNP" or "decrease inflation"???
> Who knows?
>
> Bethany

----------------------
Peter A. McGraw
Linfield College
McMinnville, Oregon
pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linfield.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:44:45 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Re: "incent"

On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Peter McGraw wrote:

> Gosh, I'm surprised at so many linguists (well, roughly two so far)
> rejecting "incent."  C'mon, Bethany and Mark, are you sure you're not
> rationalizing (linguistifying?  Or should I say "linguing"?) the secret
> prescriptivist impulses we probably all harbor?

Well, all I can tell you is that I do not perceive that to be the case.
And I try to stay on close terms with the Miss Fidditch that lives within
me.

I don't even know whether we incent persons or things or processes. Do
you? I. e., which of the ff Ss are grammatical?

Let's incent the workers to stay on the job.

Let's incent higher production.

Let's incent winning basketball.

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:54:10 -0400
From:    "Patrick L. Courts" <courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AIT.FREDONIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: "incent"

Perhaps we might have an incentuous relationship with others?
Best,
Pat

Patrick L. Courts
English Department
State University of New York
Fredonia, NY  14063
courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ait.fredonia.edu
716-673-3450

http://www.fredonia.edu/department/english/courts/

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 25 Jun 1998 12:52:41 -0400
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: "incent"

Comments for both Mark and Bethany:  Backformations, like incentive, n. -->
incent, v. are common; witness television-->televise, option-->opt,
emotion-->emote, enthusiasm-->enthuse, and my own (idiosyncratic?) usage,
transition-->transish.  Since we've just been talking about this word
formation process in my Intro. to Linguistics class, I've got a million of
'em.  Mind you, I don't like all these forms personally, but the process is
not new or irregular.

Nor is 'grow' as tr. verb new.  My Sociolx students came up with a list of
such usages last year--all I can remember off the top of my head are
variants of "grow crops" (grow tomatoes, grow corn...), but they noted
several common and traditional phrases with tr. 'grow'.  The semantic issue
is another thing, of course, esp. when Alan Greenspan uses the phrase below!


At 11:29 AM 6/25/98 -0400, you wrote:
>The problem I have with forms like "incent" is semantic: what EXACTLY does
>it mean? It seems to me that it can mean variously "provide incentive" or
>"provoke" or "fail to provide disincentive," etc.
>
>The same thing happens with the relatively new tr verb "grow" as in "to
>grow the economy" -- does it mean "improve the economy" [and, if so, by
>whose standards?] or "increase the GNP" or "decrease inflation"??? Who
>knows?
>
>Bethany
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:03:34 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Re: "incent"

On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

> Comments for both Mark and Bethany:  Backformations, like incentive, n. -->
> incent, v. are common

Of course. I don't think anyone has questioned that.

> Nor is 'grow' as tr. verb new.

I suggested that it is "relatively new," and teh evidence that I have
seen suggests that it is. I don't recall any instances in the 50s or 60s
or even 70s. I associate its use  with Clinton's term in office. Can
anyone provide decades-earlier examples? I would be interested.

Again, the problem I have with these terms is strictly semantic.

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 25 Jun 1998 13:07:30 -0400
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: "incent"

For me, substituting the test phrase "give X an incentive to...," only
"incent a person" would be grammatical; but maybe I'm too restrictive in my
use of 'incentive'.


At 12:44 PM 6/25/98 -0400, you wrote:
>On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Peter McGraw wrote:
>
>> Gosh, I'm surprised at so many linguists (well, roughly two so far)
>> rejecting "incent."  C'mon, Bethany and Mark, are you sure you're not
>> rationalizing (linguistifying?  Or should I say "linguing"?) the secret
>> prescriptivist impulses we probably all harbor?
>
>Well, all I can tell you is that I do not perceive that to be the case.
>And I try to stay on close terms with the Miss Fidditch that lives within
>me.
>
>I don't even know whether we incent persons or things or processes. Do
>you? I. e., which of the ff Ss are grammatical?
>
>Let's incent the workers to stay on the job.
>
>Let's incent higher production.
>
>Let's incent winning basketball.
>
>Bethany
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 25 Jun 1998 10:23:16 -0700
From:    "A. Vine" <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: "incent"

Peter McGraw wrote:
>
> Gosh, I'm surprised at so many linguists (well, roughly two so far)
> rejecting "incent."  C'mon, Bethany and Mark, are you sure you're not
> rationalizing (linguistifying?  Or should I say "linguing"?) the secret
> prescriptivist impulses we probably all harbor?

I reject "incent" and I'm not a linguist (sounds like a confession).  The
feeling is too negative to use for the apparently positive purpose for which it
seems intended.  It is too close to "incense" and "incite", both of which have
negative connotations.  "Incentive" is a positive word for me, and I wouldn't
want to dampen that.

Whatever happened to "motivate"?

>
> As for "incentivize," that makes me cringe even more, with that suffix
> that's the shibboleth par excellence of advertising jargon.

I concur, "incentivize" is too fiddly and jargon-like for everyday speech.


> And as for
> being "derived by an existing and widespread process," maybe
> back-formation isn't as widespread as suffixation, but it's certainly
> "existing."  What about "intuit"?  That always makes me cringe a tiny
> bit, too, but it's similarly useful and I see it's well enough
> established to have made it into my first-edition AHD.


I have a lot of trouble understanding "intuit".  Intuition is more of a state;
that is, one cannot acquire or impart it.  What can you "intuit"?  Does it mean
stating a decision or prediction based on intuition?  Pretty lame, especially
since intuition is not a basis one usually asserts.


>
> Even though "incentive" is derived from the p.p. of "incinere," I
> say let's not incinerate it just yet.
>

Well, "incent" sounds like one of them there inevitable words, but those of us
who object do not have to use it.  I for one cannot be incented in that
direction.

;-}
Andrea

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:01:18 -0400
From:    Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: "incent"

A. Vine wrote:

> I reject "incent" and I'm not a linguist (sounds like a confession).  The
> feeling is too negative to use for the apparently positive purpose for which
 it
> seems intended.  It is too close to "incense" and "incite", both of which
 have
> negative connotations.  "Incentive" is a positive word for me, and I wouldn't
> want to dampen that.
>
> Whatever happened to "motivate"?
>

Or we might even "excite" someone or "encourage" a thing

> I concur, "incentivize" is too fiddly and jargon-like for everyday speech.

> I have a lot of trouble understanding "intuit".  Intuition is more of a
 state;
> that is, one cannot acquire or impart it.  What can you "intuit"?  Does it
 mean
> stating a decision or prediction based on intuition?  Pretty lame, especially
> since intuition is not a basis one usually asserts.

For those of us who must have a jargony, bureacraticsh back-formation, why not
 go
with "enthuse."  The connotations would seem to be much more positive, and it's
 in
the dictionary (whichever one you choose).  BTW, enthuse might not even be a
back-formation, but it sounds that way.  In any case, it would seem to answer
 most
of the semantic requirements of "incent" without incensing anyone.   --

Bob Haas
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu

"No matter where you go, there you are."

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 25 Jun 1998 15:16:32 -0400
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: "incent"

At 01:03 PM 6/25/98 -0400, Bethany Dumas wrote:
>On Thu, 25 Jun 1998, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>
>> Comments for both Mark and Bethany:  Backformations, like incentive, n. -->
>> incent, v. are common.
>
>Of course. I don't think anyone has questioned that.
>
In fact, someone did question that, hence the comments by Peter McGraw and me.

>> Nor is 'grow' as tr. verb new.
>
>I suggested that it is "relatively new," and teh evidence that I have
>seen suggests that it is. I don't recall any instances in the 50s or 60s
>or even 70s. I associate its use  with Clinton's term in office. Can
>anyone provide decades-earlier examples? I would be interested.

Well, my memory bank goes back to 1940 (I haven't checked the OED), and I
know that 'grow' + vegetation is at least that old.  The specific term
'grow the economy' is apparently recent, and I too associate it with
Clinton (though a colleague here thinks that Greenspan originated it).
Perhaps you meant to apply "relatively new" to this term but not to the
transitive use of 'grow' in other contexts.  I'll look for my notes on
other contextual uses of the term.
>
>Again, the problem I have with these terms is strictly semantic.
>
>Bethany
>
It's interesting to speculate on the logical extension of the semantic
range of the word:
grow vegetables, grow animals, grow concrete things, grow abstract notions....

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 25 Jun 1998 16:10:58 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: re 'grow' + abstract obj.

Thanks, Beverly.

Of course, when I cited the "relatively new" sense of tr. 'grow' I did
not intend to include agriculture. We have, so far as I know, always
grown plants. (At least, I have personal evidence that we have "raised"
crops since at least 1940, for my family tell an anecdote about me when
I was about 3 that includes 'raise' in that sense.) (And when did we start
raisin' hell? Or cain?)

What we appear not to have done until recently, is 'grow' abstract
entities like the economy.

However, I have been told that there is an OED cite from 1481 that may
provide evidence otherwise. I have not checked it out yet.

Bethany

------------------------------

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======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (6/25/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 23 Jun 1998 to 24 Jun 1998             98-06-25 00:00:38
There are 4 messages totalling 140 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. All in a flap
  2. incented to consult..
  3. PREPONE
  4. "skedaddle"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 24 Jun 1998 10:55:53 +0100
From:    Aaron Drews <aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.ED.AC.UK>
Subject: All in a flap

Do any of you just happen to have a copy of this article lying around that
could quickly be photocopied and sent off to Edinburgh?  It seems our
library only carries the periodical from 1991 onwards.

Shockey, L.  1984.  All in a Flap: Long-Term Accommodation in Phonology.
International Journal of the Sociology of Language, 46: 87-95.

========================================================================
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
+44 (0)131 650-3485                      Departments of English Language
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron                          and Linguistics

"MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
        --Death

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 24 Jun 1998 14:27:18 -0400
From:    Bryan Gick <bgick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAPIR.LING.YALE.EDU>
Subject: incented to consult..

First, thanks for all the replies on the apostrophe's. I was interested to
see a bit more data supporting the [vowel]-'s observation...though, as is
so often true, I don't feel much more in the know than before.

Anyway, ll this talk about consulting reminds me of a possible "most
unnecessary" candidate for this year that I've been keeping my eyes out
for - one of the many such words to fall out of consultese (a dialect of
businese?):

A consultant friend relatively new to the business told me she was writing
a business plan for her client. It generally received favorable reviews,
except that at several points in the text the client insisted that she use
the word "incent" (as in "PROPOSALS TO INCENT RENEGOTIATION," an example I
since saw on the web: http://www.edisonx.com/html/news/press/pool.htm).
This is apparently a pretty new standard term.
Anybody have any thoughts on or experience with this one?

(of course, this back-formation certainly has precedent in other verbs
with nominal forms ending in -ive (collect/collective, relate/relative,
etc.), and does offer the advantage of replacing the unwieldy construction
"to provide/give/offer incentive," so I suppose it's not quite as
unnecessary as it might be..).

Bryan

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:49:16 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: PREPONE

My cross-posting of this question to SLLING-L, the sign language linguistics
list, has evoked another response.

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/

   =================

Date:    Tue, 23 Jun 1998 23:17:48 -0800
From:    Nancy Frishberg <nancyf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FISHBIRD.COM>
Subject: Re: "PREPONE"

Mark,

I know that we used PREPONE, as a clever neologism - using Tane's locution
- at Salk from 1970 onward.  When I worked with our deaf consultant, Bonnie
Gough, she and I were making morphologically related lists of signs, and this
 one obviously fit in a "family" with
POSTPONE, among others, so it seemed natural that it should be named with the
 gap in our English.  Susan
Fischer may have coined it, or it may have spontaneously come up for several of
 us, but we used it in English as the
name of the sign.

This is the first I've heard of any English dialect using it regularly.

        [quoted query snipped]

Nancy Frishberg  +1 650.654.1948  nancyf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fishbird.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 24 Jun 1998 20:52:58 -0500
From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
Subject: Re: "skedaddle"

   In a 6/23/98 message, Patricia Kuhlman wrote:

       >   An elderly classicist who taught me Homeric Greek asserted that one
>of his professors at Princeton in the early 1930's felt sure that both
>the slang terms  "skedaddle" and "skidoo" came from college students who
>knew the Greek verb, skedannumi, which means to scatter or to disperse
>(often used of people as opposed to things).  I don't know if anyone
>thinks this connection is possible.

      A Greek etymology for "skedaddle" might seem eminently plausible, but
it was seriously questioned already in 1877 (_Atlantic Monthly_, August
issue, pp.233-234).  American "skedaddle" is first attested early in the
Civil War, while Scottish and  British northern dialectal "skedaddle"
existed already earlier.  Here is part of the article:

    "...But my English friends lost no time in upsetting my hypothesis [of
the Greek origin of 'skeddadle' in the American Civil War]. 'Why, they
exclaimed, 'we used to live in Lancashire and heard 'skedaddle' every day
of our lives.  It means to scatter or drop in a scattering way.  If you run
with a basket of potatoes or apples and keep spilling some of them in an
irregular way along the path, you are said to skedaddle them.  Or if you
carry a tumbler of milk upstairs and...your gait causes a row of drops of
milk on the stair-case to mark your upward course and awaken  the ire of
the housekeeper, you are said to have skedaddled the milk. ..."

    The Scottish/ British dialectal use of 'skedaddle' involves scattering
too, of course, but there is a problem here if we try to derive it from
Greek 'skedannumi':  it belongs in a rural setting (e.g. skedaddling of
potatoes) and as such does not seem conducive to Greek influence.

     A while back I wrestled with the various problems connected with
"skedaddle" and compiled the material I gathered into an article:
"Etymology Of 'Skedaddle' And Related Terms," in _Studies in Slang_,  part
I,  edited by Gerald Leonard Cohen (=_Forum Anglicum_  vol. l4/1;
Frankfurt a.M.: Peter Lang;    1985,  pp. 29-63.

--Gerald Cohen



gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu

------------------------------

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======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (6/24/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 22 Jun 1998 to 23 Jun 1998             98-06-24 00:00:34
There are 5 messages totalling 141 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. potato -- process
  2. US copyright news (2)
  3. Twenty-Three Skidoo
  4. Dark L

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jun 1998 02:38:40 -0500
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: potato -- process

Yongwei Gao wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Has anybody there seen them before:

> process      The Rev. Al Sharpton stood at the pulpit of Friendship
> Baptist Church in deepest Harlem, shimmering in his white brocade
> preacher s gown, his  process  swept back magnificently from his
> forehead, looking for all the world like a cross between James Brown and
> the Archangel Gabriel. (6/2/94 WP D1)
>
> Wish you a nice day!
>
> Yongwei Gao

Process: U.S. African-American, going back as far as I can remember
(meaning back to the late 1930s).  "Process" is a hairdo that is, or
appears to be, the result of some chemical hair-straightening process.
Tightly-curled, or "frizzy", or "nappy", or "kinky" hair often is taken
as a symbol of "Africanity" -- that is, an externally visible sign that
is sometimes used to identify individuals as African-Americans.  The
tight curls are themselves the mechanical result of the  cross-sectional
shape of the individual hairs on the head.  In many circles, it is
fashionable to do whatever has to be done to make hair appear to be
straight and lying flat to the head.  One treament that was widely used
in the past was to soak the hair in a strong alkali solution -- lye,
that is. "Processing" hair in this way is also called "conking",
possibly derived  from the slang word "conk", meaning "head".

Notice that I did not say that tightly curled, frizzy, or nappy hair is
a racial characteristic of African-Americans.  I know people who
identify themselves, and are identified by others, as African-Americans
who have naturally smooth hair, and  others who have hair that is gently
waved.  I also know African-Americans with very dark black hair, others
with middle-of-the-road brown hair, and still others whose hair is
naturally blond or dark red or carrot-red.  There are also plenty of
people in the world who have hair that is as tightly curled as
stereotypical "African" hair, but who have no known historical
connection to Africa whatsoever.  (Try taking a look at the full range
of hair shapes of many people born in Papua-New Guinea, for example.)

One of my old students, whose appearance was very close to
stereotypically "black", used to have fun showing the silliness of
segregationists in the 1950s and early 1960s.  She would dress in a
sari, place a red dot in the middle of her forehead, and go to highly
segregated first-class hotels and restaurants in Birmingham, Alabama.
She had no  trouble being served in such places, even though she made no
claim to be from South Asia, made reservations in her own (commonly
English) name, and spoke in her normal (educated Alabaman) accent.  In
the world of segregation, her alien costume made her "white" despite her
appearance.

In the end, being African-American is a statement about social
participation and the
perception of group identification.  Physical appearance may, or may
not, be taken as a symbol of African-American identity, but there is no
kind of physical appearance that precludes full participation in
African-American culture as a member of the group.
Nonetheless, there are many African-Americans who think it stylish to
get their hair straightened into a "process" -- or to wear wigs that
give the same appearance without the need to go through the
sometimes-painful business of getting a process.  (Contrast "process"
with "dreadlocks" and "afros" and "corn-rows" for alternative ways of
thinking about what looks good in a hairdo.)

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jun 1998 15:54:26 EDT
From:    Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: US copyright news

ADS gets occasional messages from the National Humanities Alliance in
Washington regarding copyright legislation. I don't want to clutter ADS-L with
these messages, but if you're interested, let me know (AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com) and
I'll put you on a special copyright mailing list.
- Allan Metcalf

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:12:58 -0400
From:    Natalie M Baker <nbaker+[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ANDREW.CMU.EDU>
Subject: Re: US copyright news

Allan:

I am interested in being placed on the list. Thank you.

Natalie Baker

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:55:26 -0400
From:    "Patricia S. Kuhlman" <pskuhlman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: Twenty-Three Skidoo

    An elderly classicist who taught me Homeric Greek asserted that one
of his professors at Princeton in the early 1930's felt sure that both
the slang terms  "skedaddle" and "skidoo" came from college students who
knew the Greek verb, skedannumi, which means to scatter or to disperse
(often used of people as opposed to things).  I don't know if anyone
thinks this connection is possible.

Patricia Kuhlman
Brooklyn, NY
pskuhlman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]juno.com

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jun 1998 17:13:36 EDT
From:    Allyn Partin <Allynherna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Dark L

Has anyone ever heard of a region in France noted for the frequent use of Dark
L, where one would normally expect the Clear L??
Allynherna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com        Thank you!

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Jun 1998 to 23 Jun 1998
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======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (6/23/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 21 Jun 1998 to 22 Jun 1998             98-06-23 00:01:12
There are 6 messages totalling 230 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. "woods cat" (2)
  2. what a consultant does
  3. Tom Creswell (was: plural's - a new development?)
  4. potato
  5. Twenty-Three Skidoo

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 22 Jun 1998 08:55:44 -0500
From:    Jessie Emerson <jessie[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SIRSI.COM>
Subject: "woods cat"

To dialect experts on ADS-L:

Can anyone give a clear definition of the term "woods cat?"  I know that it
is a derogatory term, and I have assumed for a long time that it is used as
a slur against those born out of wedlock.  Now, I'm wondering if the term is
derogatory in some other way, e.g., as a "racial" slur.  "Woods cat" is an
old term, used at least as far back as the mid-19th century, and probably
earlier.

And I have no idea if there is an apostrophe or not :^)

Thanks,
Jessie

Jessie Emerson          Phone:  (256) 922-9820
SIRSI Corporation               Fax:  (256) 922-9818
689 Discovery Drive             Email: jessie[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sirsi.com
Huntsville, Alabama  35806      www.sirsi.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 22 Jun 1998 10:13:25 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: what a consultant does

Rima McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET> wrote
>>>>>>>>

Why consult FOR???  I've always heard, and felt fine about, consult WITH...
 -----------------------------

Alan Baragona <baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU> answered
>>>>>>>

I'd speculate most people would feel that if Bob consults WITH Ted, Bob is
 asking Ted's advice, but if Bob consults FOR
Ted, Bob is working as a consultant for Ted.  Does that fit the context of the
 original posting?

<<<<

Yes; that's why I don't want to say I consulted WITH Hugh. In fact, he consulted
 with me, or consulted me.

-- Mark

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 22 Jun 1998 09:28:48 MDT
From:    "//www.usa.net/~ague" <ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM>
Subject: Re: "woods cat"

I have heard of "woods pussy" form a Texan to refer to skunks.

-- Jim

>To dialect experts on ADS-L:

>Can anyone give a clear definition of the term "woods cat?"  I know that it
>is a derogatory term, and I have assumed for a long time that it is used as
>a slur against those born out of wedlock.  Now, I'm wondering if the term is
>derogatory in some other way, e.g., as a "racial" slur.  "Woods cat" is an
>old term, used at least as far back as the mid-19th century, and probably
>earlier.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 22 Jun 1998 11:48:44 +0000
From:    Victoria Neufeldt <vneufeldt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: Re: Tom Creswell (was: plural's - a new development?)

All this stuff about apostrophe use reminds me of a paper Tom
Creswell gave to a meeting of the Dictionary Society of North America
years ago -- early 80s, I think.  He gave some hilarious examples  of
creative apostrophizing from his collection.  I think he also gave
another paper on the same subject more recently, either for DSNA or
ADS, but it is the first one at DSNA that I especially remember, perhaps
because it was my first exposure to his wit and mental energy.  His
papers were always interesting and thought-provoking, and usually
entertaining as well.  He was an excellent speaker, with his booming voice
and easy manner.  And he was an indefatigable researcher with an
inquiring mind and a sharp eye and I always looked forward to his
presentations.  In recent years his deafness interfered with his
ability to enjoy social gatherings, including DSNA and ADS meetings,
which was a pity, for he was a sociable person.

He was also a kind and good friend.  I will miss him a lot.  For
those who don't know, he died last Thursday, June 18th, of congestive
heart failure.

I will be including an obituary for Tom in the DSNA spring Newsletter
(which should have come out in May, but now I'm glad I'm late with it).
Virginia McDavid has graciously agreed to write the obituary, but I
would also like to hear from anyone on the list who knew him and
could offer reminiscences.

Virginia told me today that he died at home (he had come home from
the hospital two weeks before).  He would have turned 78 on July
22nd.  He had had serious heart trouble for more than 25 years and
had survived two serious heart attacks.

Victoria Neufeldt

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 23 Jun 1998 11:05:07 -0700
From:    Yongwei Gao <951208[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FUDAN.EDU.CN>
Subject: potato

Hi,

Has anybody there seen them before:

nimpull    Showgirls fancies itself a deeply felt drama of the moral
redemption of a Vegas lap dancer#-the nimpulls get quite a workout.
(10/9/95 New York p78)
potato          Meet the Internet simulcast, the newest medium for live
sports, and its fans, the Web potato. (98/3/26 IHT p10)  *modelled after
couch potato and mouse potato
process      The Rev. Al Sharpton stood at the pulpit of Friendship
Baptist Church in deepest Harlem, shimmering in his white brocade
preacher s gown, his  process  swept back magnificently from his
forehead, looking for all the world like a cross between James Brown and
the Archangel Gabriel. (6/2/94 WP D1)

Wish you a nice day!

Yongwei Gao
Fudan University,
Shanghai, China

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 22 Jun 1998 23:31:57 EDT
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Twenty-Three Skidoo

    "Twenty-three skidoo"--an American slang classic--will surely be in the
RHHDAS P-Z, maybe in several entries ("twenty-three," "skidoo/skiddoo,"
"twenty-three skidoo/skiddoo").  I had previously worked on "23"; here's new
stuff on "skidoo."
     "_Twenty-three_ in _twenty-three skiddoo_" was in COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY,
March-April 1995, pages 28-34.  I had found "George Ade Explains 'Twenty-
Three,' A New Slang Phrase" in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, Sunday magazine, 3
December 1899.  I have also found many other explanations (not published in
COE) that give credence to the Dickens' TALE OF TWO CITIES play theory, with
Dickens' hero the 23rd person to meet his death.
     Peter Tamony's files were consulted, and the 1906 song "Skiddoo!
Skiddoo!  Twenty-Three for You!" by Leslie Holdsworth was reprinted in COE.
     In the Library of Congress, I had found MANY other songs:

SKIDOO! 23 FOR YOU (1906) by William J. Weidman (words) and Edward Favenza
(music).
SKIDDOO, "23" (1907) by Joseph A. Basso.
23 SKIDOO (1958) by Charles Robert Jones.
SKIDDOO FOR YOU (1906) by Harriet Jandt Flinn (words) and Edna Jandt Baker
(music).
SKIDOO STREET (1906) by Anson F. Robinson.
"SKIDOO" TWO STEP (1906) by Gertrude E. Buck.
SKIDDOO (1906) by Claribelle Gardner.
23 (THAT MEANS PULL FREIGHT) (1906) by George A. Norton.

     I had thought that that was it.
     Today, I was going through American popular songs and found two more:

"23" SKIDDOO (1906) by Joseph S. Miller (words) and Oscar Boecher (music).
SKIDOO! FOR YOU (1906) by Jimmie Barry.

    The latter song is very important.  The cover says "FEATURED WITH GREAT
SUCCESS BY MR. and MRS. JIMMIE BARRY."  Four comic "skidoo!" illustrations are
shown.  Eleven extra "skidoo!" verses are given.  Barry's SKIDOO! FOR YOU song
begins:

I suppose you've heard of the latest word
In the english language
It was coined by a fellow named Billy B. Van
To use upon the stage
It made a hit and has gone the rounds
You hear it ev'ry day
And when you're least expecting it
You'll hear somebody say.

"SKID-OO"  "SKID-OO"
You hear it ev'rywhere
"SKID-OO"  "SKID-OO"
It seems to be in the air.

So I had an idea that it would not be wrong
With "SKID-OO" for a subject I'd write a song
If you'll listen a minute, it won't take long
And then I'll "SKID-OO" "SKID-OO."

A young girl thought that she would like
To go upon the stage
She said she knew if she got the chance
That she become the rage
At last an opportunity came
And she went on one night
But when she started in to sing
It sounded like a fight.

"SKID-OO"  "SKID-OO"
Some one yelled out loud
"SKID-OO"  "SKID-OO"
It was somebody in the crowd.

And then with noise the theater shook
She tried to give them a pleasant look
But the gallery boys yelled "Get the Hook" (RHHDAS has 1907--ed.)
And "SKID-OO" for you "SKID-OO"
    (Extra 11 verses not included--ed.)

    I haven't had a chance to check the New York Times Personal Name Index and
Variety Obituaries and Worldcat (author search) and various Lincoln Center
library card files (not on computer) for "Billy B. Van."

------------------------------

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======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (6/22/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 20 Jun 1998 to 21 Jun 1998             98-06-22 00:00:33
There are 4 messages totalling 186 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. e-mail/paper mail (2)
  2. plural's - a new development?
  3. Uncompromise & other compromises

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 21 Jun 1998 13:41:18 -0500
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: e-mail/paper mail

>On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:08:30 -0400 Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>
>wrote:
...     ...

Later that day, Peter McGraw responded:
>I'd say "e-mail" is either singular or collective, but not plural.  It
>seems perfectly natural to say, "He sent me three e-mails yesterday."
>
>BTW, there was a discussion awhile (a couple of years?) ago on this
>list prompted, as I remember, by a New York Times solicitation of
>opinion as to the grammar of the singular of the term.  The question,
>as I recall, boiled down to, "Does one say 'AN e-mail'?"  I was one who
>piped up and said that seemed unnatural to me and that I would tend
>to say "an e-mail MESSAGE."  I'm sure others said the same, though I
>don't remember how many did or how many found "an e-mail" acceptable.

I participated in that discussion, with the same kind of comment as
Peter's.  Now I use 'e-mail' as a count noun to refer to e-mail messages or
as a noncount ("mass") noun to refer to the phenomenon.

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 21 Jun 1998 13:51:26 -0500
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: e-mail/paper mail

Peter Richardson asks:
>I take it, then, that the plural of "an e-mail" is "some e-mail" and not
>"e-mails." If necessary, "two email messages," but not "two emails." Or
>maybe "ease-mail?"

Interesting point.  Not simple by any means:

I have some e-mail.

I had 145 e-mails when I got back from my trip.

Some of the e-mails were ordinary, but two of them were SOME e-mails.  I
couldn't stop laughing.

A few e-mails were downright silly.

Much (of my) e-mail is silly too.

Many e-mails are silly.

*?Much e-mail is silly, but some e-mails are not.

*?Lots of e-mail is serious stuff, but some of them are a waste of time.

That particular e-mail.... (ambiguous)
Those particular e-mails....

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 21 Jun 1998 14:03:42 -0500
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: plural's - a new development?

>From Bryan Gick, Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:52:21:

>I've been noticing something for the last few months that I can't ignore
>anymore: Lots of people seem to be using the orthographic apostrophe-s
>plural only after (orthographic?) vowels! A text will typically have lots
>and lots of standard -s plurals with one or two -'s ones tossed in. So
>far, all and only those words ending in a, o and i get -'s, and I haven't
>found any final u's or syllabic (non-silent) e's from people who do this.
>
>Examples - Here's the grand total of -'s plurals I've seen since I started
>noting them (omitting proper nouns, abbreviations and acronyms):
>
>1. In an insect repellent ad (http://www.outdoor-adventures.com/anglers/
>   forums/ontbuysell/messages/463.htm):
>-'s: mosquito's (x3), patio's
>-s:  bugs, insects, lotions, sprays, humans, animals, waves, decks, doors,
>     wholesalers, distributors.
>
>2. Web page for a renovations company (http://www.eagle123.com/Patio.htm):
>-'s: patio's
>-s:  renovations, carports (x2), enclosures (x2), covers, rooms.
>
>3. Local air service webpage
>   (http://www.akcache.com/bettleslodge/index.html):
>-'s: jacuzzi's
>-s:  languages, places, amenities, rooms, pilots, floats, adventures,
>     years, maps, rafts, canoes, stoves, bags, trips (x3), rates.
>
>4. Personal email from a 13-year-old family member:
>-'s: extra's
>-s:  guys (x2), rides
>
>5. Department store poster ad (women's "Sunsations" bathing suits):
>-'s: bra's
>-s:  contours, ruffles, colors, prints, stripes...[there were more but I
>     stopped transcribing].
>
>So, am I losing my mind?

Maybe they use apostrophes in words to which they want to draw special
attention.  The salient insect is the mosquito, not just any bug.  And it's
people who sit on the patio that need the bug spray most.  ??

Like using quotation marks to draw attention in signs when no one is being
quoted:

"Patio Doors"
Special bargain price
Available thru Thursday
Come by "today"

Not totally random behavior.

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 21 Jun 1998 16:54:36 EDT
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Uncompromise & other compromises

UNCOMPROMISE

    In the Styles section of today's Sunday New York Times are two full-page
ads for Rockport shoes.  The tag line is:

    live comfortably.  uncompromise.  start with your feet.

    I guess capital letters are "out."
    Anyway, "uncompromise" has a little "R" next to it.  On the side of the
page is "1-800-ROCKPORT, Rockport and uncompromise are registered trademarks."
    "Uncompromise" is a registered trademark?  I can't use that word?
    Why doesn't the Goodwill Games trademark "good."
    McDonald's Happy Meals trademark "happy."
    Quality Inns trademark "quality."
    Jesse Sheidlower's THE F-WORD trademark--
    One-word "trademarks" (long-established words at that!) make me wonder
what this registered trademark thing is all about, anyway.
    Grant B., any opinions?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
OTHER COMPROMISES

    "Yankees" and Yankee Stadium continue to be a hot subject in these parts,
and I was SURE my stuff on the meaning of the Yankees would be printed
somewhere.  As reported before, I lectured before SABR on February 28th, then
sent the stuff to Yankees Magazine and got no reply in eight weeks.
Www.yankees.com didn't reply, either.  My angry letter to George Steinbrenner
was forwarded to Yankees Magazine, whose editor called my answering machine.
    I called right back, but his secretary said he would be out of town until
next week!  I called back next week, and his secretary said he was still out.
I called back a few days later and got an answering machine message that the
editor was out and wasn't taking messages.
-----------------------------
    The Christian Science Monitor (www.csmonitor.com) published my letter
correcting its erroneous "Big Apple" story last Friday, June 19th, pg. 8.  The
letter states that David Fitz Gerald is John J. Fitz Gerald's son, but I wrote
that David was the son of John's brother, James...James Fitz Gerald had hired
Shirley Povich at the Washington Post in 1922.  Povich, at 90 years old, wrote
me a wonderful letter on the Fitz Gerald brothers and "the Big Apple."  Povich
died two weeks ago at age 92...The New York Times is still waiting for the
"Big Apple" story to be "fit to print."  Two people are dead now, so I guess
that helps.
----------------------------
    I didn't know the late Tom Creswell very well, but he wrote some things
about me a few months ago that were ridiculously kind.

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Jun 1998 to 21 Jun 1998
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======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (6/21/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 19 Jun 1998 to 20 Jun 1998             98-06-21 00:00:13
There are 10 messages totalling 307 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. plural's - a new development? (short reply to LONG repost) (2)
  2. conversos (was:  Melungeons)
  3. seeking a verb for what a consultant does (4)
  4. new term?
  5. hooligan inglese
  6. Everybody

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Jun 1998 21:54:51 -0700
From:    "A. Maberry" <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: plural's - a new development? (short reply to LONG repost)

On the other hand, I saw something on a website not long ago which points
in a different direction, avoidance of " 's": "For brevities sake ..."
Does "brevity" have a plural? If so, why?

Allen
maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu

On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, A. Vine wrote:

> Larry Horn wrote:
>
> >In an
> > example from Melanie Misanchuk (which bears striking resemblance to
> > something I saw in a London pub quite recently):
> >
> >  I once saw, on
> > a handwritten sign in a washroom, "Plea's flush the toilet".
> > Now *that's* serious.
> >
> > _plea's flush the toilet_! I maintain that some thought had to go into that
> > particular effort. It surely would have been much simpler to write
> > _please..._ wouldn't it? What rule was the author following when s/he wrote
> > that? Can it be put down to lack of education, confusion about the uses of
> > _'s_, or is the reason more profound than that? Perhaps the author was
> > attempting to produce *correct* English by using what s/he perceived as
> > *high-brow* literary orthography, and over-correcting in the process of
> > doing that? I still don't have answers to that central question - the
> > reason, as usual, probably depends on the individual.
>
> This looks remarkably like the makings of a folk etymology.  If the writer of
> this sign has not seen the word written much (or doesn't remember exactly),
 s/he
> might think, 'Well, it's like a plea, only I know there's an "s" sound at the
> end, so it's probably a plural.  OK, here's how I would write a plural of
> "plea".'  Pretty nifty.
>
>
> >
> > Finally, Tom Chase sounds the death knell for _'s_:
> >
> > "The apostrophe was introduced into English orthography rather late,
> > and seems to be dying out. The number of writers who can use it
> > confidently and correctly is declining; through the media of
> > advertising, signage, and so on we are constantly exposed to
> > "incorrect" uses (e.g., "Simpsons" rather than "Simpson's" in a
> > department store chain founded by Robert Simpson).
>
>
> This is sometimes due to the difficulty of securing a name legally.  For
> example, the catalog merchant, Lands' End, had to spell the name as such in
> order to reserve it for legal use.  I have worked for a company which had to
> misspell one of the words in the name just wind up with the initials desired.
>
>
> >
> > English is not alone in admitting of variants in the usage of
> > _'s_. French and German also suffer. There is a likelihood that
> > factors such as education, over-correction due to concern about
> > *correct* usage, history, *foreign-ness* of words and the fact that
> > certain words _don't look right_ without the _'s_ all play a
> > part. Personally, this process of change pretty much sums up for me
> > why I love languages so much - wouldn't the world be a much duller
> > place without the humble _'s_?
> >
> > Jonathan Swift Sales Executive Abbey Information Systems 1 Paper Mews
> > 330 High Street Dorking RH4 2TU
>
>
> I would also suggest that the Internet may be responsible for the
 proliferation
> of a number of annoying misspellings/miswritings.  English is the most common
> language currently used, and many of the writers are not native and have not
 had
> the umpty-ump number of spelling lessons many natives had to slog through. 
 In
> addition, based on the observations of some friends and family members who
 are
> otherwise excellent spellers, some folks are not very good at typing and so
 spew
> forth a veritable plethora of typos in the course of point-making.
>
> I cannot be alone amongst this crowd in having a list of pet peeve
> misspellings/misuses I encounter with the greatest of frequency?
>
> Andrea
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Jun 1998 23:49:02 -0500
From:    Dan Goodman <dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM>
Subject: conversos (was:  Melungeons)

Before this, I've only seen converso/conversos applied to people of
Iberian ancestry whose ancestors converted from Judaism.  (Publicly,
at least.)

Now I see it apparently used for people whose ancestors converted from
Islam.  There are probably many such people; but I've never heard of
families retaining any non-Christian traditions, let alone continuing
to practice the faith in secret.

And it just occurred to me that for Hispanics in the Southwest,
converso ancestry might be valued because it's proof of not being
Indian.

Dan Goodman
dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 20 Jun 1998 01:02:03 -0500
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: plural's - a new development? (short reply to LONG repost)

Bob Haas wrote:
>
> I'm certain your not.

This in response to Andrea Vine's comment:

> > I cannot be alone amongst this crowd in having a list of pet peeve
> > misspellings/misuses I encounter with the greatest of frequency?

Oh, for heavens' sake's.  How could you, Bob?  You of all people should
have chosen to write, correctly, "I'm certain your knot."  Or is the
silent K going to go the way of the apostrophe?

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

>
>    --
> Bob Haas
> University of North Carolina at Greensboro
> rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu
>
> "No matter where you go, there you are."

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 20 Jun 1998 00:19:11 -0700
From:    Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: seeking a verb for what a consultant does

>         I consulted for Hugh on the XYZ issue

Why consult FOR???  I've always heard, and felt fine about, consult WITH...

RIma

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 20 Jun 1998 00:19:11 -0700
From:    Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>
Subject: new term?

Just saw in "American Psychologist" an article entitled "Adaptations,
Exaptations, and Spandrels."

Exaptation is defined as: a feature not arising as an adaptation for its
current function but rather co-opted for the emerging paradigm of
evolutionary psychology.  That definition is quoted from S. J. Gould (1991).

Spandrels are herein defined as "presently useful characteristics that owe
their origin to side consequences of other features of the architecture."

Rima

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 20 Jun 1998 10:48:19 -0400
From:    Alan Baragona <baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU>
Subject: Re: seeking a verb for what a consultant does

Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:
>
> >         I consulted for Hugh on the XYZ issue
>
> Why consult FOR???  I've always heard, and felt fine about, consult WITH...
>
> RIma

I'd speculate most people would feel that if Bob consults WITH Ted, Bob
is asking Ted's advice, but if Bob consults FOR Ted, Bob is working as a
consultant for Ted.  Does that fit the context of the original posting?

Alan B.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 20 Jun 1998 23:03:40 +1000
From:    Ross Chambers <maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: hooligan inglese

Reporting on the behaviour of English football followers in Marseilles
last week, "La Fiamma", an Italian language newspaper published in
Australia, uses the expression:

"hooligan inglese"

I have only the SOED at hand for etymology of "hooligan". It cautiously
offers "the name of an Irish family in SE London, conspicuous for
ruffianism" for "hooligan".

It's interesting to contemplate the possibility of this eponymous family
living on in Italian.

Kind regards - Ross Chambers
--

--

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Ross Chambers           Sydney       Australia
maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ozemail.com.au

"L'Australia non e solo agli antipodi, e lontana da tutto,
  talora anche da sa stessa."

(Australia is not only  at the Antipodes, she is away from everything,
sometimes even from herself)

Umberto Eco

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 20 Jun 1998 13:18:48 EDT
From:    Carol Andrus <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Everybody

I think this is funny. Yesterday I did a "business writing" seminar for a NYC
company. I usually have humorous overheads of church bloopers (Today's sermon
is "What is Hell." Come early and listen to our choir practice.) silly signs
and newspaper headlines  (Woman survivies fatal accident) for humor breaks.
One man, who lived in India in the early 60's said that the French film with
Bardot (And God created woman) was advertised in the Indian newspapers as "And
God Cremated Woman."

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:03:02 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Re: seeking a verb for what a consultant does

On Fri, 19 Jun 1998, Mark Mandel wrote:

>          I consulted for Hugh on the XYZ issue
>
> which I find unsatisfactory. [snip]
>
> Suggestions, anyone? They don't have to use the root "consult". I've tried
> "advise", but it doesn't always fit semantically.

I say "I served as a consultant to/on ..." " or "I consulted on ..." or
even "I was a consultant to/on ..."

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 20 Jun 1998 14:12:52 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Re: seeking a verb for what a consultant does

On Sat, 20 Jun 1998, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote:

> >         I consulted for Hugh on the XYZ issue
>
> Why consult FOR???  I've always heard, and felt fine about, consult WITH...

Primarily because when I am working as an expert witness in a legal case,
I do not in fact consult WITH -- my function is completely separate from
that of the lawyer.

Bethany

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Jun 1998 to 20 Jun 1998
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======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (6/15/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 13 Jun 1998 to 14 Jun 1998             98-06-15 00:01:01
There is one message totalling 37 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Fwd: Slang terms by historical period?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 14 Jun 1998 22:21:38 -0400
From:    Evan Morris <words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM>
Subject: Fwd: Slang terms by historical period?

I received this query this week, and hope that someone on this list might
be able to help this gentleman.

Please direct your replies to the author:

charles davidson <davidsnn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]theprdgroup.com>

>I am working on a museum exhibit of Virginia history from pre-history to
>the present day. A category of hands-on activities for this exhibit is
>"vocabulary". In each time period in the exhibit we are presenting words
>or slang which originated in that period. Each word is printed on a
>small hinged flip-up panel with the word origin/meaning described
>underneath.
>
>We have been having difficulty finding words and meanings, and when we
>do we often can't be sure they are placed in the correct period.
>
>Can you suggest a resource that may supply some of these answers, or
>even... lists of words, that are located in time??
>
>Your suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

>Sincerely,
>
>Charles Davidson
>The PRD Group, Ltd.
>Fairfax, VA
>

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Jun 1998 to 14 Jun 1998
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======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (6/14/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 12 Jun 1998 to 13 Jun 1998             98-06-14 00:00:07
There are 5 messages totalling 310 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Glass
  2. There's a Spy in your midst (2)
  3. Rock and Roll (continued)
  4. Trucking

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 13 Jun 1998 00:06:24 -0400
From:    Alice Faber <faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Glass

Bethany said:

| NPR is doing a report on Glass (who fabricated the anecdotes in The New
| Republic and others pubs) right now -- one person spoke of the fabricated
| anecdotes as false "on their face." I remain interested in knowing about
| research detailng how we know that anecdotes are false "on their face" --
| is this a possible diss. topic for some sharp student?

I suspect that at least one contributing factor in the case of Glass'
fabrications, and those others (e.g., the Washington Post stories about drug
sales withing sight of the Capitol), is a basic belief that these publications
check their facts and that if it's in the newspaper, it must be so. Or,
alternatively, you can't believe anything you read in the paper, because the
liberal (or conservative, take your pick) powers don't want you to know what's
really going on.

That being said, I think it would be very interesting to read the New Republic
pieces that we now know were fabricated to see if there are internal features
that *should* have made it obvious that there was a problem with the accuracy
of the articles.

I suspect also that if there is research concerning people's willingness to
form and hold beliefs that are contradicted by very simple observation, it
will be in the field of social psychology.

Alice Faber

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 13 Jun 1998 17:16:41 -0400
From:    Paul McFedries <paul[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MCFEDRIES.COM>
Subject: There's a Spy in your midst

Hello,

I understand some folks on this list have been talking about me, so I hope
you don't mind if I skip the usual lurking period and post posthaste.

My name is Paul McFedries and I'm the proprietor of The Word Spy mailing
list and Web site (http://www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/). I believe Barry
Popik mentioned The Word Spy on this list earlier in the week.

The Word Spy began life almost three years ago as The Daily Word. At first
the list was a daily message that highlighted words I found interesting or
unusual. Eventually the list began to focus more on my true linguistic love:
new words, or old words used in new ways. As a busy author (I write computer
books for a living), I often wouldn't have time to research new words, so
I'd use convenient sources such as Jargon Watch and the Jargon File.

While I found many of the words in these sources to be quite clever, they
often seemed like "mere" neologisms: words that no one would actually use in
conversation or in writing. So now I generally shun other "jargon" sources.
Instead, I scour books, newspapers, and magazines for interesting new words
and phrases. I then do a search on the word (in Lexis-Nexis, for example),
and try to uncover the way the word is being used in the real world.

The list is now called The Word Spy, which comes from my habit of attending
trade shows and conferences and listening in on other people's conversations
and presentations as a way of discovering how they use words.

Barry was kind enough to send me part of the thread that discussed my list.
In one message, he seemed to infer that the word "Spy" in the name meant
that I was stealing words from other sources. While that may have been true
in the early days, it is *not* true now. Instead, "Spy" refers to the other
meanings of the word: "To discover by close observation" and "To investigate
intensively."

There was also some question of whose site was "hotter," mine or someone
else's. First of all, it's absurd to put this kind of thing in competitive
terms. New words are fascinating, and who cares if someone else finds one
first? In any case, my list could never be considered "hot," because I rely
solely on mainstream media. Other people with far more patience and courage
than I can wade through the "verbal landfill" (to use a Word Spy word) that
is Usenet, or the drivel that passes for most chat room conversations.

Anyway, I've carried on for far too long. If you're interested in The Word
Spy mailing list, you can join by sending a note to
listmanager[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mcfedries.com, with only the following in the message body:

subscribe wordspy

I'm looking forward to participating in this list, and to many fascinating
conversations about words.

Paul McFedries

paul[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mcfedries.com
http://www.mcfedries.com/

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 13 Jun 1998 20:09:19 EDT
From:    Ron Butters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: There's a Spy in your midst

*****in reply to:
>While I found many of the words in
>these sources to be quite clever, they
>often seemed like "mere" neologisms:
>words that no one would actually use in
>conversation or in writing.

We at ADS publications have term for such words (coined a number of years ago
by John Algeo): STUNT WORDS

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 13 Jun 1998 21:28:19 EDT
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Rock and Roll (continued)

    This continues the previous postings on the origin of the phrase "rock and
roll," for the next volume of RHHDAS or DARE or whatever.
     Chancey Olcott was popular around the turn of the century for "Too-ra-
loo-ra-looral (that's an Irish lullaby)" and "When Irish Eyes Are Smiling."

MY SONNY BOY (ROCKING, ROCKING) (1903)
by Chancey Olcott ("to my mother")
...
Rocking, rocking
Close your eyes Sonny boy
Rocking, rocking
You're old Nana's joy
Rocking, rocking
Nothing shall you annoy
While you do sleep
Alone watch I keep
O'er my own little Sonny boy.

ROCKIN' IN RHYTHM (1931)
by Duke Ellington, Irving Mills, and Harry Carney
(no lyrics)

ROCKIN' IN RHYTHM (from Earl Carroll's VANITIES)(1932)
by Harold Arlen
...
Feet in Manhattn
Keep beatn' and pattin
'Till break of dawn
Rockin' in Rhythm

ROCKING HORSE PARADE (1934)
by E. P. La Freniere

Oh can't you hear that rum-tum-tum?
The troops are marching here they come
Across the play-ground they're riding hard
Rocking to the rolling of the drum  (close enough--ed.)
Just see the prancing cavalry
As proud as they can be
The Captain gay, he leads the way (no jokes, please--ed.)
They'll follow him to victory
See that little Rocking Horse Parade
Ev'ryone is riding unafraid
They are gallant troops one and all
When that final bugle call is played
Calling to the riders wh'have strayd (sic)
They'll go prancing into slumberland
That little Rocking Horse Parade.
Baby is rocking, rocking all day long
Just playing soldier while I sing this song
Sandman a creeping
And the silvery moon is peeping
While baby's dreaming of the Rocking Horse Parade.

ROCKIN' CHAIR SWING (1937)
by Mary Schaeffer and Vincent Lopez

Rockin' chairs and apron strings
Bring me back old fashioned things
A lullaby, the hushed baby's cry
Those tender hands that brushed
The tear drops from my eye.
I've got the ROCKIN' CHAIR SWING
It's rockin' right in my head
I hear the melody my mammy sang to me
When she put me to bed.
I've got the ROCKIN' CHAIR SWING
It's swinging right in my heart
It seems that I can feel
The turn of ev'ry wheel
On that old baby cart...

ROCK, ROCK, ROCK! (from the Michael Todd musical production AS THE GIRLS
GO)(1948)
by Harold Adamson and Jimmy McHugh

ROCK, ROCK, ROCK, it started in Kansas City
It played a one night stand and landed in Tennessee
The people yelled hoo-raw who heard it in Doo-waw-ditty ("Detroit"--and not in
RHHDAS--ed.)
And all the cats had fun in Washington, D.C.
It made a zig-zag turn and headed for Minnesota
>From Minneap'lis it jumped over to old St. Paul
And then it sallied forth to South and North Dakota
And when it hit New York the customers had a ball
They had the Frim-fram sauce, the Jersey bounce
The Jimmy Jam jive, the Shim-Sham too
But now they've got a rhythm that's strictly new (or is it?)
It's just a knocked out thing that started in Kansas City
And when you ROCK, ROCK, ROCK, you'll really be knocked out too.
ROCK, ROCK, ROCK, get out and rock it
Put that jive right in your pocket
If you don't like it, don't knock it
Rockin' is the thing to do.
It's just a new Re-bop that's rockin' the population
It's just a new Re-bop that's gonna be rockin' you.

    I didn't have the chance to see these "rocking" citations:

ROCKAWAY BABY (1920s?) by Sammy Stept from the Ziegfeld Midnight Frolic (I ran
out of time today)
ROCKIN' CHAIR (1935?) by Hoagy Carmichael (page was torn out of SONG HITS that
was on microfilm, but it's available elsewhere)
THE ROCKING CHAIR WAS ROCKING (1935) by J. Russel Robinson (I didn't find it
on the 1935 hit songs reel)
ROCKIN' AT MIDNIGHT (1948) by Roy Brown (I didn't find it on the 1948 hit
songs reel).

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 13 Jun 1998 21:28:44 EDT
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Trucking

   Here are two "trucking" songs that may be of interest.  I discussed the
origin of "trucking" back on September 22, 1996 (check out those ADS-L
archives!), but never posted songs.

TRUCKIN' (TRUCK-TRUCK-TRUCKIN' ALONG)(1935)
by Charles Van, Kenneth Carey, and Jary Armstrong

There's a brand new dance sensation
And it's sweeping thru the nation
It's so easy let's go to it
Come on, here's the way to do it
Get yourself a sweetie
Keepin' time with that song
Just learn that step, get full of "pep"
Keep truck, truck, truckin' along!
Learn that red hot rhythm
Old style dances are gone
Fellows hold your baby
And truck, truck, truck a-long
Ev'ry body's doin' it
Doin' it now
It's the latest craze today
It's hot, and how!
Listen to that music
Put your arms where they belong
You're bound to win
Come on, begin
To truck, truck, truckin' a-long.

TRUCKIN' ON DOWN
(HARLEM'S LATEST DANCE CRAZE)(1935)
by Arthur Porter and Eubie Blake

Harlem's got another dance craze now
Just a lazy shuffle not high brow
If you watch it, soon you'll know just why
All the high browns shout when the M.C. hollers out
Truck on Down, Truck on Down (see RHHDAS "down"--ed.).
Get the motion first when you run amuck
You haven't done a thing until you learn to truck
It's easy stick a-round, stick a-round
Get the habit now so you won't be late
You've got to know how to truck
I just can't explain the motions that you go thru in it
Still I know that you're alone if you don't begin it
You got to truck on down
Truck on Down.
O-Fays love it no denyin'
Don't start laughin' I ain't lyin'
Eskimos are also (?-ed.) tryin'
Truckin', Truckin' on Down.
Like a waiter walks with a heavy tray
You do a shufflin' step and in a lazy way
Now with your elbows out, prance a-bout
Rock from side to side like a clumsy duck
And then you're doin' the "truck"
Lag just like you're gonna skate
Now watch me and you'll hetch it
Drag with rhythm in your gait
Move a-la Step-In Fetch-it
This is your chance to clown
Truck on Down.
Rock once more--that's if you care to
Do your shuffle then prepare to
Teach the crowd from ev'ry where to
Join in Truckin' on Down.

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Jun 1998 to 13 Jun 1998
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From: Automatic digest processor <LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
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======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (6/13/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 11 Jun 1998 to 12 Jun 1998             98-06-13 00:01:12
There are 3 messages totalling 119 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Fabricated anecdotes
  2. Query: PREPONE
  3. Glass

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Jun 1998 08:23:04 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Fabricated anecdotes

Recently, I asked whether there was research on the question of how we
decide that anecdotes are fabricated. Today's NYTimes contains info about
a contemporary scandal involving fabrcted anecdotes. See:

<http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/magazine-fabrication.html>

Birefly, the story is this:

-----quoted material - NYTimes 6/12/98-----
There was the article last February about the three
twentysomething White House interns sitting hunched
over vodka martinis in a Washinton bar, "feverishly
speculating about the details of President Clinton's
sex life."

In that same issue, there was the article about how
environmental special interest groups, like "Truth
in Science, a Christian organization skeptical
of global warming," and the "Association for the
Advancement of Sound Water Policy," use weather reports
to advance their own agendas.


And in December 1997, there was a piece about advertisements
encouraging employees to rat on their bosses. "Ads by a Texas drug-testing
lab encourage employees to reveal
whether their boss is using narcotics by sending in a few
hairs and $115," the article said.

All false. Not one of the above anecdotes or quotes or
sources existed. They are instead the
handiwork of 25-year-old Stephen Glass, a writer who it now
appears made up part or all
of these and 24 other articles in The New Republic over the
last three years.
-----end quoted material-----

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Jun 1998 10:22:14 +0900
From:    Wendalyn Nichols <wnichols[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RANDOMHOUSE.COM>
Subject: Re: Query: PREPONE

Don't forget that "homely" in British English means "homey" as in "cozy and
homelike," so that the idea of someone being a good homemaker is not so big
a stretch.




Laurence Horn <laurence.horn [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] YALE.EDU> on 06/11/98 09:54:09 PM

Please respond to American Dialect Society <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

To:   ADS-L [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
cc:    (bcc: Wendalyn Nichols/Trade/RandomHouse)
Subject:  Re: Query: PREPONE




At 9:52 PM -0400 6/10/98, Margaret Ronkin wrote:
>Query: PREPONE
>
>I've been assuming that to _prepone_ X (1) means to reschedule X before
>the time X was scheduled, and (2) originated in (Asian) Indian English,
>possibly Bengali English.  Two (not so great) examples - the second of
>which is definitely Indian - follow.
>
A quick check of Nexis supports your assumption.  Virtually all 21 of the
citations either come from the press of the subcontinent or refer
(admiringly) to the ingenuity of Indian English speakers for having
invented this opposite of "postpone".  The first citation, curiously, comes
from the "On Language" column of the N. Y. Times Magazine, but not on
Safire's watch.  One of his summer replacements, Steven Weisman, wrote on
12 July 1987 about the glories of Indian English, citing "prepone" along
with "homely" to describe a good homemaker (as in personal ads; definitely
some potential for cross-dialectal interference here), "air-dash" to
describe how you fly somewhere in a hurry, etc.

>Can anyone help me with the origin and of this wonderful word?  Is it
>current in other Englishes?
>
Apparently not yet, more's the pity, although one of the Asian citings is
from Hanoi.  I will do my little part to rectify the situation by spreading
the word tomorrow in a toast at the Baltimore wedding of my niece,
originally scheduled for September 5th but just last week preponed to June
12th.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 12 Jun 1998 17:55:40 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Glass

NPR is doing a report on Glass (who fabricated the anecdotes in The New
Republic and others pubs) right now -- one person spoke of the fabricated
anecdotes as false "on their face." I remain interested in knowing about
research detailng how we know that anecdotes are false "on their face" --
is this a possible diss. topic for some sharp student?

Bethany

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Jun 1998 to 12 Jun 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (6/12/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 10 Jun 1998 to 11 Jun 1998             98-06-12 00:00:35
There are 4 messages totalling 136 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Word Spy site
  2. Big Tobacco; Missoury and Chicagou
  3. Query: PREPONE
  4. P.S. on PREPONE

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Jun 1998 03:25:16 -0000
From:    Gareth Branwyn <garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EARTHLINK.NET>
Subject: Re: Word Spy site

>Date:    Wed, 10 Jun 1998 02:39:54 EDT
>From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
>Subject: He Got Game; Jesse's Words; McFedries' Words; Computer databases

>McFEDRIES' WORDS

>     Paul McFedries also has a word-a-day internet site
>(www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/).  Maybe Jesse can tell me which site is
>"hotter."  McFedries's site gets some hits because he's also the author of
>some computer books.
>     The site is called "Word Spy"--probably because "Word Detective" was
>already taken.  Say, doesn't a "spy" look at other people's stuff and steal?
>     Maybe Gareth Branwyn can explain this site.  Much of it overlaps with
>Branwyn's work.  Who steals from whom?

I didn't even know this site existed before today. He obviously gets many
of his terms from the Jargon Watch column with ever-so-slight changes to
my definitions. NetLingo (www.netlingo.com) also uses many of the JW
terms (with my definitions), as do several other "cyberslang" sites. For
what it's worth, a number of terms and definitions in "Among the New
Words" American Speech (Vol. 72, No. 3)--the ones apparently taken from
an email message entitled "Re: Fwd: Cyberslang"--also came from Jargon
Watch.




--------------------------------------------------------------
GARETH BRANWYN
Jargon Watch editor, Wired
Author of _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_
Editor-in-chief, Street Tech ( http://www.streettech.com )

---------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:42:34 EDT
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Big Tobacco; Missoury and Chicagou

BIG TOBACCO

     "Big Tobacco" lost a legal case yesterday.  The Wall Street Journal often
uses the name "Big Tobacco."  They're no longer big tobacco _companies_.
     True, this fits in headlines, but it makes them sound like a mob.  This
follows "Big Oil" and "Big Steel," which I guess are considered neither
Americanisms nor slang.  I found a bunch of "Big (Product)" on JSTOR.  I
haven't seen Big Computer or Big Chips or Big Browser, though.
      Checking News Abstracts for "Big Tobacco" shows:

Jan. 1994-Dec. 1994:  3 hits
Jan. 1995-Dec. 1995:  5 hits
Jan. 1996-July 1997:  82 hits
Jan. 1997-March 1998:  155 hits.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
MISSOURY & CHICAGOU

     Someone from Missouri wanted me to "show them."
     The Dictionary of Americanisms has for "Missouri Indian" "1765 R. ROGERS
_N. Amer._ 104 The inhabitants on this river are called the Missouri Indians."
      The Performing Arts in American Newspapers 1690-1783 CD-ROM shows the
Boston News Letter, 28 July-4 August 1726, "Indian nations called Missoury,
Osages, ..."  The article also describes a town called "Chicagou."

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Jun 1998 08:54:09 -0400
From:    Laurence Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Query: PREPONE

At 9:52 PM -0400 6/10/98, Margaret Ronkin wrote:
>Query: PREPONE
>
>I've been assuming that to _prepone_ X (1) means to reschedule X before
>the time X was scheduled, and (2) originated in (Asian) Indian English,
>possibly Bengali English.  Two (not so great) examples - the second of
>which is definitely Indian - follow.
>
A quick check of Nexis supports your assumption.  Virtually all 21 of the
citations either come from the press of the subcontinent or refer
(admiringly) to the ingenuity of Indian English speakers for having
invented this opposite of "postpone".  The first citation, curiously, comes
from the "On Language" column of the N. Y. Times Magazine, but not on
Safire's watch.  One of his summer replacements, Steven Weisman, wrote on
12 July 1987 about the glories of Indian English, citing "prepone" along
with "homely" to describe a good homemaker (as in personal ads; definitely
some potential for cross-dialectal interference here), "air-dash" to
describe how you fly somewhere in a hurry, etc.

>Can anyone help me with the origin and of this wonderful word?  Is it
>current in other Englishes?
>
Apparently not yet, more's the pity, although one of the Asian citings is
from Hanoi.  I will do my little part to rectify the situation by spreading
the word tomorrow in a toast at the Baltimore wedding of my niece,
originally scheduled for September 5th but just last week preponed to June
12th.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 11 Jun 1998 09:18:59 -0400
From:    Laurence Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: P.S. on PREPONE

When I noted that
> The first [Nexis] citation, curiously, comes
>from the "On Language" column of the N. Y. Times Magazine, but not on
>Safire's watch.  One of his summer replacements, Steven Weisman, wrote on
>12 July 1987 about the glories of Indian English, citing "prepone"...
I forgot to mention that this Mr. Weisman's day job was New Delhi bureau
chief for the Times.  I also didn't mean to suggest that the verb
originated in or around 1987; the tenor of the citations was that this is a
fairly long-standing item in the lexicon of Indian English.

Larry

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Jun 1998 to 11 Jun 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (6/11/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 9 Jun 1998 to 10 Jun 1998              98-06-11 00:00:28
There are 8 messages totalling 284 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. "eager beaver"
  2. on "geeked"
  3. He Got Game; Jesse's Words; McFedries' Words; Computer databases
  4. Jesse's Words
  5. He Got Game; Jesse's Words; McFedries' Words; Computer databases -Reply
  6. mailing list problems
  7. INQUIRY
  8. Query: PREPONE

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Jun 1998 01:21:50 -0400
From:    Kusujiro Miyoshi <kw900325[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S.SOKA.AC.JP>
Subject: Re: "eager beaver"

  I highly appreciate not a few answers to the question above.
Each comment is very instructive.

Kusujiro Miyoshi,
kw900325[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s.soka.ac.jp

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Jun 1998 00:35:33 -0500
From:    Greg Pulliam <gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU>
Subject: on "geeked"

=46rom   Macworld Magazine Current Issue (website)
New Reviews


from =B3iMac Feedback: The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly=B2

By Philip Dyer

*       *       *

Arthur A. Messier has this to say:

I must say that the iMac "happening", followed by the Panasonic/Imation
announcement today, has me geeked. I find the iMac as an object just too
coolfor words. ...I say that not as a Macophile, but as someone who has
spent years working with the public in retail, in libraries, observing what
people really want and respond to.

Thank you Arthur! Not only have you provided us with your objective opinion
that the iMac is a machine that the public will embrace, but you have also
introduced a new word into our vocabulary -- "geeked." From the Latin word
"geekeo/geekere," this transitive verb means "to inspire joy of a technical
manner." We'll begin using this word around the office today.

*       *       *

________________________________

Philip Dyer is Macworld's Senior Online Editor.
_______________________________

Copyright =A9 1998 Mac Publishing, L.L.C.



Greg

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Jun 1998 02:39:54 EDT
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: He Got Game; Jesse's Words; McFedries' Words; Computer databases

HE GOT GAME

    All this discussion on the decade-old "you da man," and nothing on Spike
Lee's HE GOT GAME?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
JESSE WORD'S

    Jesse Sheidlower has a new book out that's a compilation of his word-a-day
column on the internet (www.jesse.com or www.randomhouse.com).  The internet
address is given on the cover.
    This is one of those rare books that tells you right away how to get the
entire thing for free!!  :-)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
McFEDRIES' WORDS

     Paul McFedries also has a word-a-day internet site
(www.logophilia.com/WordSpy/).  Maybe Jesse can tell me which site is
"hotter."  McFedries's site gets some hits because he's also the author of
some computer books.
     The site is called "Word Spy"--probably because "Word Detective" was
already taken.  Say, doesn't a "spy" look at other people's stuff and steal?
     Maybe Gareth Branwyn can explain this site.  Much of it overlaps with
Branwyn's work.  Who steals from whom?
     Words can be formed nowadays by a handful of these internet guys.  In the
old days, most of these words would die quickly as amusing-for-the-moment
"Sniglets."  (Comedian Rich Hall's series of books in the early 1980s.)  Now,
they're on web sites for years to come!
      It's an interesting site for some word amusement.  It appears that it
gets 2,322 hits a day--which is over four times the number of members in the
American Dialect Society.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
COMPUTER DATABASES

     I have a read-only NYU pass for its Bobst Library (which I paid for),
which does NOT allow me home access to Bobcatplus databases.
     Thus, I can get wonderful databases such as JSTOR or WORLDCAT during NYU
hours only.  And I work during most of those hours!  If I eat dinner, I might
get to the library at 8 p.m. (very tired), and things close at 9:45 p.m.
     To reserve the one NEXIS terminal (for a half hour, without a printer) at
NYPL's Science and Business Library is a major pain.
     So when I look for something I usually can find it, but it takes a lot of
time just to get to the databases or libraries I need!
    (In the case of "status symbol," JSTOR led to one cite which led to
another; NYU had every volume of the British Journal of Sociology EXCEPT the
one I needed, and when I finally got to the NYPL a week later I had misplaced
my other notes.  Nothing is easy.)
     Which all leads me to a suggestion:

     WHY NOT A GROUP "COMPUTER DATABASE" PLAN?  The MLA has a large selection
of medical plans, and I'm looking into them.  Why not a group "computer
database" plan for its members?  Why doesn't the MLA and/or the ADS offer the
MLA BIBLIOGRAPHY (which has American Speech) or NEXIS or WORLDCAT or EUREKA or
JSTOR or MUSE or NEWS ABSTRACTS or PERIODICAL ABSTRACTS or READERS GUIDE at
reduced rates for the scholar members who have computers but (for whatever
reason) don't have home access to these databases?
     Why not make life easier for members?
     Just askin'.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
YANKEES (continued)

     Last weekend, the new stadium fight between Yankees owner George
Steinbrenner and City Council Speaker (and Governor wannabe) Peter Vallone
made front page news.  I mailed 'em both stuff about the origin of the name
"New York Yankees," and how a true fan had been completely dissed.
    Yankees Magazine editor Tim Wood left a message on my answering machine
today.  He has great respect for the Society for American Baseball Research!
The stuff based on my SABR lecture that I had sent him eight weeks ago, well,
HE NEVER GOT IT!
    Of course, I had also sent ONE e-mail to www.yankees.com, and then ANOTHER
e-mail, and e-mail usually arrives...

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:51:38 -0400
From:    Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: Jesse's Words

> JESSE WORD'S
>
>     Jesse Sheidlower has a new book out that's a compilation of his
 word-a-day
> column on the internet (www.jesse.com or www.randomhouse.com).  The internet
> address is given on the cover.

It's actually http://www.jessesword.com or http://www.randomhouse.com/jesse
, if anyone is trying to find it.

>     This is one of those rare books that tells you right away how to get the
> entire thing for free!!  :-)

Yeah, well....

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Jun 1998 10:36:21 -0400
From:    Evan Morris <emorris[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SKADDEN.COM>
Subject: He Got Game; Jesse's Words; McFedries' Words; Computer databases
 -Reply

>>> "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM> 06/10/98 01:39am >>>

     The site is called "Word Spy"--probably because "Word Detective" was =
already taken.  Say, doesn't a "spy" look at other people's stuff and =
steal?

------------------------

Don't ask me how I feel about the "Carmen Sandiego Word Detective" game.

E. Morris

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Jun 1998 11:19:55 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: mailing list problems

Who do I write to about mailing list problems? The truncations I have mentioned
 here seem to be due to a formatting error
in the list mailing itself, but I don't want to burden the list with details.

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Jun 1998 17:45:20 -0700
From:    Dawn <dawnn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]THEGRID.NET>
Subject: INQUIRY

Hello, I am new to this group, and I am hoping to have two questions
answered by someone in this list- serv.
1st question:
Concerning the word "kind" and "kinds". I believe it is incorrect to use
the plural form in some instances. Can anyone please clarify the rules
concerning the use of either word, and give examples of both the correct
and incorrect useage.

2nd question:
Concerns modern american english. If one were to use a cronological
timeline, what is the period of time our present day english was
established? Are there  solid rules establishing our current english
language, if so, what year(s) would these rules date back to?

Thank you in advance for your time.

Dawn

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 10 Jun 1998 21:52:18 -0400
From:    Margaret Ronkin <ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU>
Subject: Query: PREPONE

Query: PREPONE

I've been assuming that to _prepone_ X (1) means to reschedule X before
the time X was scheduled, and (2) originated in (Asian) Indian English,
possibly Bengali English.  Two (not so great) examples - the second of
which is definitely Indian - follow.

Can anyone help me with the origin and of this wonderful word?  Is it
current in other Englishes?

Thanks.

Maggie Ronkin
_____________

(1)
...

When the Finnair representative spoke to American Airlines office in
Stockholm, American Airlines agreed to waive their portion of this
penalty.  But would Finnair waive its portion, well - in no way, whatever.
The customer was wrong to _prepone_ his flight. He would have to pay.
___________

(2)
Reliance Industries _prepones_ redemption of debentures
               Our Financial Bureau in Mumbai

...

The company, sources say, is at liberty to advance or _prepone_ the date
of redemption of the principal amount of debentures subject to approval
from the trustees for the debenture holders. A sum of Rs 125.78 crore on
debenture series J and Rs 263.77 crore on debenture series K are
outstanding as on June 30, 1997. The debenture series `J  & `K  are
redeemable on the expiry of a 10-year period with a date of allotment of
February 26, 2002 with an option before the board to redeem the same at a
seven year period.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Jun 1998 to 10 Jun 1998
***********************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (6/9/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 7 Jun 1998 to 8 Jun 1998               98-06-09 00:00:32
There are 14 messages totalling 472 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Mangoes
  2. )You the/da man9
  3. big weekend (4)
  4. Man the ships
  5. grammar safari website
  6. grammari safari successful
  7. drinking & (was "drugging")
  8. "You the man."
  9. "tinner" in 1910 baseball poem
 10. Forwarded message re "tinner"
 11. 2nd forwarded message re "tinner"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Jun 1998 00:24:19 -0700
From:    Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>
Subject: Mangoes

Do you remember when the third volume of DARE came out and there was a
contest to match words and their definitions?

Well I remember that one of them was mangoes and it matched with bell
peppers.  I didn't get the connection.  In Wednesday's San Francisco
Chronicle's food section, there was the following article:

"In the 18th Century, Europeans got to know the tropical world on an
unprecendented scale.  In the process, they got to know tropical fruits,
which had the same sort of exotic appeal for them that they have for us
today, except that they were vastly more expensive.

Only a few varieties had any hope of surviving the weeks-long boat journey
to Europe.

One that did was the pineapple, and Europe went pineapple-mad.  ...

Pineapples became the symbol of lavish hospitality, which is why so many
pieces of antique dining room furniture are ornamented with carved
pineapples.

Another tropical hit was the mango.  Ripe fresh mangoes didn't have a
prayer of making it from India to London, of course, but pickled mangoes
did.  Mango pickles were fantastically fashionable, and very expensive.

As a result, people who couldn't afford mangoes started "mangoing" other
things by pickling them in the higly spiced Indian style.

This explains the dozens of late 18th and early 19th Century recipes for
"mangoes" made from cucumbers, cantaloupes, green peaches, and bell
peppers, and probably why some Midwesterners still refer to bell peppers as
"mangoes."

Rima

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:06:54 -0400
From:    Avi Arditti <Avi_Arditti[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEB.VOA.GOV>
Subject: Re: )You the/da man9

I9ve heard this expression a few times lately -- most recently, when I helped a
 fellow break into his car, and he thanked me thusly.  Any ideas on its origin?

Avi Arditti
Voice of America/Washington

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Jun 1998 10:00:35 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: big weekend

At 8:22 AM -0700 6/8/98, Yongwei Gao wrote:
>Dear all,
>
>
>2. Is  looksmanship  ever recorded in any dictionaries? Example: Ever
>since the dawn of the television age, when John F. Kennedy wiped the
>floor with Richard Nixon before he had opened his mouth (a lesson on
> looksmanship  that Nixon never forgot) American politicians have been
>hitting the hair dye bottle and hiring  image consultants.  (Sources:
>presumably Newsweek) And what does it exactly mean?
>
I doubt it's in dictionaries.  My suspicion is that was a nonce word (it
doesn't show up on Nexis, which started cataloguing well after the
Kennedy-Nixon campaign, so it doesn't seem to have stuck).  As the
quotation suggests, it refers to the use of the physical component of
"image" politics--control over one's appearance on TV as a key element in
winning minds and influencing elections.  The story is that radio listeners
thought that Nixon had "won" the debate with Kennedy (I believe it was the
one that dealt with the all-important issue of the fate of Quemoy and Matsu
[spelling approximate]), but that television viewers were convinced Kennedy
thrashed him, all because Nixon had the wrong make-up, seemed to be
sweating, had his usual 5:00 shadow, etc., while Kennedy--the
"novice"--appeared cool and relaxed.  The term "looksmanship" itself would
have been an analogous formation based on the then-popular "brinksmanship",
dealing with U.S. policy toward the Soviet Union during the Cold War years.
Or so I'd guess.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Jun 1998 08:49:25 -0700
From:    Grant Smith <gsmith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: big weekend

>At 8:22 AM -0700 6/8/98, Yongwei Gao wrote:
>>Dear all,
>>
>>
>>2. Is  looksmanship  ever recorded in any dictionaries?
>>
>I doubt it's in dictionaries.  My suspicion is that was a nonce word (it
>doesn't show up on Nexis, which started cataloguing well after the
>Kennedy-Nixon campaign, so it doesn't seem to have stuck).  As the
>quotation suggests, it refers to the use of the physical component of
>"image" politics--control over one's appearance on TV as a key element in
>winning minds and influencing elections. . . .  The term "looksmanship"
>itself would
>have been an analogous formation based on the then-popular "brinksmanship",
>dealing with U.S. policy toward the Soviet Union during the Cold War years.
>Or so I'd guess.
>
>Larry

I would guess the analogy to be "one-up-manship," a popular phrase meaning
to gain the advantage over others, especially in wit.  There was a book
out, I forget the author, entitled, I believe, "The Art of Oneupmanship."
-Grant Smith

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Jun 1998 14:32:34 EDT
From:    Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Man the ships

Looks like we need some clarification here from _America in So Many Words_ by
David K. Barnhart and Allan A. Metcalf, published recently by Houghton
Mifflin. Here's the entry for 1956:

1956 Brinkmanship

   How do you fight a war without going to war? After ten years of COLD WAR
(1946) with the Soviet Union, that was a paradox we were still trying to
resolve. But President Eisenhower's secretary of state, John Foster Dulles,
had no doubts about it. "The ability to get to the verge without getting into
the war is the necessary art," Dulles said in an interview early in 1956. "If
you cannot master it, you inevitably get into war. If you try to run away from
it, if you are scared to go to the brink, you are lost."
   There was good reason to be scared. Both the United States and the Union of
Soviet Socialist Republics were armed and dangerous. The United States had
tested its first hydrogen bomb in 1952, the U.S.S.R. in 1953. Both sides had
long-range aircraft to deliver the bombs. Neither side was deterred by the
fear of nuclear winter (1983), an idea whose time would not come for thirty
more years. In classrooms, the best we could do for our schoolchildren was to
hold "duck and cover" drills so they could practice shielding themselves from
the flash and blast of a distant atomic bomb.
   Not every American favored going to the brink. Former governor Adlai
Stevenson of Illinois, who would again be nominated as the Democratic
candidate to run against Eisenhower, criticized Dulles in a speech in February
1956: "No, we hear the Secretary of State boasting of his brinkmanship--the
art of bringing us to the edge of the nuclear abyss."
   That word brinkmanship was modeled on the gamesmanship of Stephen Potter's
1947 book, The Theory and Practice of Gamesmanship or the Art of Winning Games
Without Really Cheating. The sporting and humorous connotations of the suffix
-manship applied to such a serious subject imply that the practitioner of
brinkmanship is playing with catastrophe. Though the cold war is over, high-
risk politics is not, and brinkmanship has remained a vivid word to describe
it.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Jun 1998 12:49:03 -0700
From:    "A. Vine" <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: big weekend

Grant Smith wrote:
>
>
> I would guess the analogy to be "one-up-manship," a popular phrase meaning
> to gain the advantage over others, especially in wit.  There was a book
> out, I forget the author, entitled, I believe, "The Art of Oneupmanship."
> -Grant Smith

Or, as I've heard it, "oneupsmanship".  I think the derivation here is from the
third person singular verb form; the parties being described are more likely to
be in the third person.

Andrea

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Jun 1998 18:27:31 -0400
From:    Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: big weekend

Andrea et al,

The "ups" version is also the one I'm familiar with, re: one and ship.

A. Vine wrote:

> Grant Smith wrote:
> >
> >
> > I would guess the analogy to be "one-up-manship," a popular phrase meaning
> > to gain the advantage over others, especially in wit.  There was a book
> > out, I forget the author, entitled, I believe, "The Art of Oneupmanship."
> > -Grant Smith
>
> Or, as I've heard it, "oneupsmanship".  I think the derivation here is from
 the
> third person singular verb form; the parties being described are more likely
 to
> be in the third person.
>
> Andrea

   --

Bob Haas
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu

"No matter where you go, there you are."

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Jun 1998 17:33:19 +0000
From:    Lynne Murphy <M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU>
Subject: grammar safari website

hello all--

got the new NADS today (i blush typing this), and am trying to get to
the 'grammar safari' website that charles meyer discusses in the usage
newsletter.  everytime i try to get to this site, it shuts down my
netscape.  does anyone else have this problem (and a solution)?
the address is http://deil.lang.uiuc.edu/web.pages/grammarsafari.html.

thanks much,
lynne

--

M. Lynne Murphy
Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English
Baylor University
PO Box 97404
Waco, TX 76798

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Jun 1998 18:38:08 +0000
From:    Lynne Murphy <M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU>
Subject: grammari safari successful

thanks to everyone who answered my grammar safari question.  the
puzzle is solved--i can get into it with a later version of netscape.

thanks!
lynne
--

M. Lynne Murphy
Assistant Professor in Linguistics
Department of English
Baylor University
PO Box 97404
Waco, TX 76798

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Jun 1998 19:33:11 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: drinking & (was "drugging")

On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Greg Pulliam wrote:

> The channel WGN noon news had a feature on today in which a psychologist
> talked about teenagers using alcohol and drugs, and she used the phrase
> "drinking and drugging" to describe their behavior.  I notice MW10 has this
> intransitive use of "drugging" listed, but I'd never heard it before today.
> Is this use common anywhere?

I've heard it for several years, probably as early as 1990, maybe even
1988.

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Jun 1998 19:12:27 -0500
From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
Subject: Re: "You the man."

   In a 5/8/98 message, Avi Arditti wrote:

     >I've heard this expression a few times lately -- most recently, when
I helped a fellow break into his car, and he thanked me thusly.  Any ideas
on its origin?

---The expression is given in Clarence Major's _Juba To Jive: A Dictionary
of African-American Slang_, 1994, although not with the specific meaning
"Thank you":

       YOU THE MAN (1900-s-1990s) a phrase or response meaning "you're in
charge," "whatever you
       say goes," " et cetera.  This expression has changed in the ninety
years or so that it has been popular
       in black informal speech.  Originally a woman's line addressed to a
man, usually her husband or
       lover, about half the time used ironically.  In the thirties, black
men used it ironically in addressing
       white men--and in come cases black men--who happened to be their
bosses.  In the eighties young
       black men began using it as an ironic compliment.

--Gerald Cohen



gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Jun 1998 19:56:44 -0500
From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
Subject: Re: "tinner" in 1910 baseball poem

    My thanks to the people who have responded to my query about the 1910
baseball poem, particularly to Gregory Downing for his 6/5/98 ads-l
message.  His comment about "off the reel" meaning "immediately"  is right
on the mark.

    "Tinner" remains a problem, however.  The dictionaries give "tinner" as
a miner of tin, or a tinsmith, but neither fits the poem.  In the context
of the poem, "tinner" seems to mean "an unproven talent."  The poet says:
"Sign me up--I'm now a tinner/But I've trained with all the good ones."
I.e., he hasn't played in the big leagues yet, but his preparation has been
excellent.

     Here is part of the third verse, with the second and third lines of
interest now:

     I can hit like Honus Wagner, I can steal like Tyrus Cobb,
     In the field I'm all the grapefruit [i.e. I'm the cat's whiskers], at
the bat I'm on the job--
              Never entered any college
              But I'm there on inside knowledge--
    [etc. etc. etc.]

     So, "never entered any college"--i.e. hasn't played in the big leagues,
  "but I'm there on inside knowledge"---i.e., I've learned the game
elsewhere.  This seems to repeat his observation a verse earlier that he's
a "tinner" but has "trained with all the good ones."

    Still, what all this has to do with "tin" remains a mystery. Maybe
Jonathan Lighter has something about this in his files.

--Gerald Cohen






gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:09:55 -0500
From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
Subject: Forwarded message re "tinner"

     I am forwarding the following interesting message on "tinner," with
thanks to the sender.

>X-From_: gscole[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ark.ship.edu  Mon Jun  8 20:44:57 1998
>Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 21:45:06 -0400
>From: GSC <gscole[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ark.ship.edu>
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu
>Subject: ?"a tinner"
>
>Gerald,
>For what its worth, I ran a search on AltaVista, using the phrase in
>quotes of "a tinner" and came up with several (actually, many) sites
>that supposedly have a reference to 'tinner'.  Unfortunately, the first
>one, as shown below, could not be called up.  It seems to indicate that
>'tinner' could also be a reference to an itinerant peddler, one who
>could do some of the work of a tinsmith.  In rural areas, they would
>travel from farm to farm, both selling and repairing items of tin.  They
>were limited in the range of tinsmith work that could be done, to the
>extent that they couldn't carry certain tools/supplies with them.  [I
>have an interest in old tools, but I am not an expert on tinsmithing.]
>
>However, there is another possible connection; is there a relationship
>between 'itinerant' and 'tinner', as there would be with a journeyman,
>minor league player, one who has worked with various teams?
>
>[[ Tale of a Tinner
>           [URL: yyy.algorithms.com/coldspring/co02013.html]
>           Tale of a Tinner. When I was about eight or nine years old, a
>peddler, by
>           the name of Michael Beasom, began coming to our house.
>Everybody
>           called him...
>           Last modified 2-Dec-96 - page size 8K - in English [
>Translate ] ]]
>
>You've raised an interesting question.  Hope that my comments are not a
>waste of your time.
>
>George S. Cole    gscole[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ark.ship.edu





gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 8 Jun 1998 21:14:58 -0500
From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
Subject: 2nd forwarded message re "tinner"

    This second message just arrived re "tinner" in the 1910 baseball poem.
Again, my thanks to George Cole.

>X-From_: gscole[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ark.ship.edu  Mon Jun  8 21:02:17 1998
>Date: Mon, 08 Jun 1998 22:02:27 -0400
>From: GSC <gscole[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ark.ship.edu>
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu
>Subject: Tinner history.
>
>Gerald,
>Sorry that I didn't find this sooner, but this site refers to an
>itinerant tinsmith.  It is the site that I noted for you, earlier, but
>the address was incorrect.  I changed my search focus, and located the
>page, but at a new address.  Apparently, the material is from a Penn
>State Univ. Press book, dated 1982.
>
>http://www.worldws.com/coldspring/co02013.html
>
>Hope that this helps.
>
>George S. Cole    gscole[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ark.ship.edu



gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Jun 1998 to 8 Jun 1998
**********************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (6/7/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 5 Jun 1998 to 6 Jun 1998               98-06-07 00:00:47
There are 4 messages totalling 112 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. drugging
  2. The Grey Lady comes clean (2)
  3. "They met cute"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 6 Jun 1998 10:31:49 -0400
From:    Robert Kelly <kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: drugging

"Drugging" was quite common, in this intransitive usage, back in the
England of the 1920s and 1930s, if the novels of that era are to be
believed.  I dont have a citation to hand, but I've read the phrase many
times.

RK

On Fri, 5 Jun 1998, Greg Pulliam wrote:

> The channel WGN noon news had a feature on today in which a psychologist
> talked about teenagers using alcohol and drugs, and she used the phrase
> "drinking and drugging" to describe their behavior.  I notice MW10 has this
> intransitive use of "drugging" listed, but I'd never heard it before today.
> Is this use common anywhere?
>
> Greg
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 6 Jun 1998 20:35:15 -0400
From:    Laurence Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: The Grey Lady comes clean

>From today's New York Times (p. 2, Corrections column):
=========
A report in the Metropolitan Diary column on May 25 about ta nun who bought
a package of cookies at an airport was published in error.  The
incident--in which the nun thought that a man was helping himself to her
cookies when in fact she was helping herself to his [elegantly phrased,
eh?]--did not occur recently at  Kennedy International Airport [well, I
suppose it COULD have...].  It is a current myth and has been recounted by
a folklorist, Jan Harold Brunvand, in a variety of renditions in two books,
"The Choking Doberman" and "The Mexican Pet."
=========
Well, I take back my previous slur .  At least I'm quite certain Penthouse
Forum has never published a retraction acknowledging that a letter they had
published turned out to have related events that on careful investigation
did not occur.

Larry.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 6 Jun 1998 20:25:01 -0500
From:    Dan Goodman <dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM>
Subject: "They met cute"

I'll have to check to make sure; but I remember encountering it in
Frederik Pohl's science fiction story "Day Million" -- first published
in Rogue in 1966.  Since the story was told in present tense, it would
be "They meet cute."

Dan Goodman
dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 6 Jun 1998 22:21:48 -0400
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <gd2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: The Grey Lady comes clean

At 08:35 PM 6/6/98 -0400, Laurence Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU> wrote:
>>From today's New York Times (p. 2, Corrections column):
>=========
>A report in the Metropolitan Diary column on May 25 about ta nun who bought
>a package of cookies at an airport was published in error.  The
>incident--in which the nun thought that a man was helping himself to her
>cookies when in fact she was helping herself to his [elegantly phrased,
>eh?]--did not occur recently at  Kennedy International Airport [well, I
>suppose it COULD have...].  It is a current myth and has been recounted by
>a folklorist, Jan Harold Brunvand, in a variety of renditions in two books,
>"The Choking Doberman" and "The Mexican Pet."
>=========
>Well, I take back my previous slur .  At least I'm quite certain Penthouse
>Forum has never published a retraction acknowledging that a letter they had
>published turned out to have related events that on careful investigation
>did not occur.
>

Many urban myths are pretty obviously unlikely, prima facie, as we saw this
week in re the editorial elevator. Why does this particular NYT reprint of a
transparent and well-known urban myth rate a nostra culpa from The Newspaper
Formerly Known as Grey? Because some wiseguy wrote in and called them on it
for once? Out, out, damn'd spot!

But it'll take more than a drop of bleach to degrey that Frau.... It's not
only her hairdresser who knows for sure.... I can see it now: pretty soon
they'll be printing up the one about the pink-haired matron, the poodle, and
the microwave.... A friend of mine actually lives in her building and heard
about that one right from the "super"....

Mercilessly,

Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or gd2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Jun 1998 to 6 Jun 1998
**********************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (6/5/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 3 Jun 1998 to 4 Jun 1998               98-06-05 00:00:10
There are 7 messages totalling 196 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Lounge Chaise
  2. terminal prepositionitis (2)
  3. lounge chaise (2)
  4. Grammar -- It's Not Just For the Classroom!
  5. Metropolitan Diary

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 3 Jun 1998 23:12:05 -0500
From:    Dan Goodman <dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM>
Subject: Lounge Chaise

I think I recall having seen "chaise lounge" over the years.

Though not nearly often as "marshmellow".

Dan Goodman
dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com
http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html
Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 4 Jun 1998 00:13:15 -0500
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: terminal prepositionitis

It seems to me there has been a recent increase in anxiety over "terminal
prepositions."  TV newspeople suppress them often. Note the final paragraph
in An Associated Press release on federal government records being sent for
storage in limestone caves in the Kansas City area:

Documents could be preserved from six to 75 years. Most of them will be
disposed.

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 4 Jun 1998 01:30:14 -0700
From:    Bill King <wfking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOTNET.NET>
Subject: Re: terminal prepositionitis

--------------9BF5D5197377D37EECD17021
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854";
 x-mac-creator="4D4F5353"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

For some reason, the flavor of this reminds me of the use of "a pant" for "a
single pair of pants" current in NYC some years ago.  Perhaps this sounds
spare, sleek and sophisticated.

Now, if the documents were not properly disposed, would they be ill-disposed?

Bill King


Donald M. Lance wrote:

> It seems to me there has been a recent increase in anxiety over "terminal
> prepositions."  TV newspeople suppress them often. Note the final paragraph
> in An Associated Press release on federal government records being sent for
> storage in limestone caves in the Kansas City area:
>
> Documents could be preserved from six to 75 years. Most of them will be
> disposed.
>
> DMLance



--------------9BF5D5197377D37EECD17021
Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

<HTML>
<FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times">For some reason, the flavor of this
reminds me of the use of "a pant" for "a single pair of pants" current
in NYC some years ago.&nbsp; Perhaps this sounds spare, sleek and
 sophisticated.</FONT><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times"></FONT>

<P><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times">Now, if the documents were not properly
disposed, would they be ill-disposed?</FONT><FONT FACE="Times New
 Roman,Times"></FONT>

<P><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times">Bill King</FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times"></FONT>&nbsp;<FONT FACE="Times New
 Roman,Times"></FONT>

<P><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times">Donald M. Lance wrote:</FONT>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times">It seems to me
there has been a recent increase in anxiety over "terminal</FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times">prepositions."&nbsp; TV newspeople
suppress them often. Note the final paragraph</FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times">in An Associated Press release on
federal government records being sent for</FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times">storage in limestone caves in the
Kansas City area:</FONT><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times"></FONT>

<P><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times">Documents could be preserved from
six to 75 years. Most of them will be</FONT>
<BR><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times">disposed.</FONT><FONT FACE="Times New
 Roman,Times"></FONT>

<P><FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times">DMLance</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
<FONT FACE="Times New Roman,Times"></FONT>&nbsp;</HTML>

--------------9BF5D5197377D37EECD17021--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 4 Jun 1998 08:53:35 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: lounge chaise

At 4:09 PM -0500 6/3/98, Mark Mandel wrote:
>I saw this new (to me, at least) variation yesterday:
>        LOUNGE CHAISES $20
>(or similar price).
>
>I suppose the logic is "Well, it's a chaise, and I guess it's for lounging."
>
Or--evidence for rule ordering:

Fr. chaise(s) longue(s)--> longue(s) chaises(s)
        [via Anglicization of word order]
     --> lounge chaise(s)
        [via orthographically induced reanalysis]

Nah.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:00:07 EDT
From:    Carol Andrus <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Grammar -- It's Not Just For the Classroom!

I live on Manhattan's Upper West Side. The grocery stores I shop in, in
deference to me, have: 10 items or fewer. So there!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 4 Jun 1998 10:30:26 EDT
From:    Carol Andrus <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Metropolitan Diary

I did put 2 shorts in the MD; then I realized that Ron Alexander retains
rights to them and sells them to Reader's Digest for a fortune. The next one I
came across, I sent directly to RD. for 93 words, I got a check for $400.
Here: "I was driving across Kansas and needed some envelopes to mail stuff. I
was driving through this  dusty town and saw a store: Sign in gold letters on
the store window: Hooper's Stationary Store. I pulled in, went in, got my
evelopes, went to the counter, no one but Mrs. Hooper at the counter. I said,
are you Mrs. Hooper? Indeed I am, she said. Mrs. Hooper ... and I explained
about her sign. Well what does the one with the "a" mean. I said, unmoving,
immobile, in one place..." She took my money, went to the cash register, got
my change (I could see she was disturbed) and came back and said: Well, honey,
I can explain that. We've been at this location for 17 years."

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 4 Jun 1998 13:21:42 -0400
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: lounge chaise

Add --> lounge chair(s), to complete the semi-calque (and I'll bet this is
what we REALLY say anyway, isn't it?!).


At 08:53 AM 6/4/98 -0400, you wrote:
>At 4:09 PM -0500 6/3/98, Mark Mandel wrote:
>>I saw this new (to me, at least) variation yesterday:
>>        LOUNGE CHAISES $20
>>(or similar price).
>>
>>I suppose the logic is "Well, it's a chaise, and I guess it's for lounging."
>>
>Or--evidence for rule ordering:
>
>Fr. chaise(s) longue(s)--> longue(s) chaises(s)
>        [via Anglicization of word order]
>     --> lounge chaise(s)
>        [via orthographically induced reanalysis]
>
>Nah.
>
>Larry
>

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Jun 1998 to 4 Jun 1998
**********************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (6/4/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 2 Jun 1998 to 3 Jun 1998               98-06-04 00:00:42
There are 8 messages totalling 254 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. "Driving While Black" (3)
  2. lounge chaise
  3. dirty water dogs
  4. Stooge
  5. Site Revised!
  6. RE>bogus anecdotes

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 3 Jun 1998 04:33:49 EDT
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: "Driving While Black"

DRIVING WHILE BLACK (DWB)

     The feature story in the Village Voice, 9 June 1998, is "Driving While
Black:  Fear & Loathing on the Jersey Turnpike" by Peter Noel.  DWB is
obviously a play on DWI (driving while intoxicated).  On page 39, Noel writes:

     Since 1989--and possibly long before that--state police have been
"engaged in a program of racial targeting" on the New Jersey Turnpike,
according to court documents in a pending case against 19 black men and women
who, in a joint motion, claimed they were illegally targeted, stopped,
searched, and arrested by troopers on the turnpike in Gloucester County
between January 1989 and April 1991.  Allegedly, the troopers target blacks,
especially those driving luxury cars such as BMWs, Mercedes-Benzes, and
Lexuses.

     Deja News shows over 700 hits for "driving while black."  One of them is
New Jersey Cop Watch #8 in misc.activism.progressive.  It quotes lawyer
Johnnie L. Cochran with "These men were guilty of DWB.  Driving While Black."
I don't know if Johnnie Cochran coined the phrase, but it wouldn't be
surprising if he did.
     For "Among the New Words."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
MISC.

     After writing about "stooge" and "pansy" yesterday, I picked up New York
Press, June 3-9, and found the headers "Iggy's a Stooge" on page 6 and "Pansy
Division" on page 16.  They still won't give me a column, though.
     In the New York Post, 2 June 1998, pg. 10, col. 5, columnist Cindy Adams
writes:

     The _Monica Lewinsky_ saga:  You can indict a ham sandwich, said _Sol
Wachtler_, the former New York state chief judge who experienced it himself.

     Unfortunately, the New York Post is not on Nexis.  However, the earliest
Nexis citation for "ham sandwich" was from Wachtler (as previously discussed
here).
      I learned that Sol Wachtler was teaching at my law school, so I wrote to
him about "ham sandwich."  I was also concerned that New York's Attorney
General would lose the Ellis Island case (as posted here on the "First Monday
in October"), so I sent him a copy of the special master's decision with my
thoughts of what was probably going to go wrong.  I was interested in filing a
"friend of the court" brief on New York's behalf.
       Wachtler never replied.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 3 Jun 1998 12:54:55 -0400
From:    Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: "Driving While Black"

>
> DRIVING WHILE BLACK (DWB)
>
>      The feature story in the Village Voice, 9 June 1998, is "Driving While
> Black:  Fear & Loathing on the Jersey Turnpike" by Peter Noel.  DWB is
> obviously a play on DWI (driving while intoxicated).  On page 39, Noel
 writes:

>      Deja News shows over 700 hits for "driving while black."  One of them is
> New Jersey Cop Watch #8 in misc.activism.progressive.  It quotes lawyer
> Johnnie L. Cochran with "These men were guilty of DWB.  Driving While Black."
> I don't know if Johnnie Cochran coined the phrase, but it wouldn't be
> surprising if he did.

Haven't checked Nexis on this, but we have a few citations for "DWB" going
back to 1994; none of them mention Cochran.

>      After writing about "stooge" and "pansy" yesterday, I picked up New York
> Press, June 3-9, and found the headers "Iggy's a Stooge" on page 6 and "Pansy
> Division" on page 16.  They still won't give me a column, though.

Haven't seen this issue of the Press, but "Pansy Division" is the name
of a San-Francisco-based "queercore" band (hardcore punk with
homosexual themes). They've been around since the early 1990s; we got
a few cites from them for HDAS. They also played in Cleveland during
the 1995 DSNA convention; some of us (hi Erin!) went to see the show,
which was pretty good.

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 3 Jun 1998 11:08:37 -0700
From:    "A. Vine" <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: "Driving While Black"

Barry,

In the California Bay Area, there is an expression (racist) "Driving While
Oriental".  It isn't to illustrate that people are stopped by police because
they are Oriental/Asian; rather, it is a comment on driving skills.  I heard
this expression at least 9 years ago.  Fortunately, I haven't heard it lately.

Andrea
--
--------------------
bite the wax tadpole

Barry A. Popik wrote:
>
> DRIVING WHILE BLACK (DWB)
>
>      The feature story in the Village Voice, 9 June 1998, is "Driving While
> Black:  Fear & Loathing on the Jersey Turnpike" by Peter Noel.  DWB is
> obviously a play on DWI (driving while intoxicated).  On page 39, Noel
 writes:
>
>      Since 1989--and possibly long before that--state police have been
> "engaged in a program of racial targeting" on the New Jersey Turnpike,
> according to court documents in a pending case against 19 black men and women
> who, in a joint motion, claimed they were illegally targeted, stopped,
> searched, and arrested by troopers on the turnpike in Gloucester County
> between January 1989 and April 1991.  Allegedly, the troopers target blacks,
> especially those driving luxury cars such as BMWs, Mercedes-Benzes, and
> Lexuses.
>
>      Deja News shows over 700 hits for "driving while black."  One of them is
> New Jersey Cop Watch #8 in misc.activism.progressive.  It quotes lawyer
> Johnnie L. Cochran with "These men were guilty of DWB.  Driving While Black."
> I don't know if Johnnie Cochran coined the phrase, but it wouldn't be
> surprising if he did.
>      For "Among the New Words."
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:09:37 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: lounge chaise

I saw this new (to me, at least) variation yesterday:
        LOUNGE CHAISES $20
(or similar price).

I suppose the logic is "Well, it's a chaise, and I guess it's for lounging."

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:40:20 -0700
From:    Bill King <wfking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOTNET.NET>
Subject: Re: dirty water dogs

Grant Barrett advises:

"Remember, the Metro Diary never runs stories about ... why, although
Guiliani may be out of hand, you agree with his policy on food vendors
because sometimes those over-cooked pretzels just *stink.*"

Recently my wife and a friend, both native New Yorkers, were reminiscing
about how the Sabrett hot dog vendors always had very dirty brown gloves
with half-fingers, but the dog was good on a cold day anyhow.  This
brought to mind dwds.  At one time there were several initials applied
to hot dogs.  I can only recall "dwd" for "dirty water dog."  Does
anybody have any others?

Bill King

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 3 Jun 1998 13:52:43 -0700
From:    Bill King <wfking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOTNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Stooge

> Barry Popik wrote:

> >      After writing about "stooge" and "pansy" yesterday, I picked up New
 York
> Press, June 3-9, and found the headers "Iggy's a Stooge" on page 6 and "Pansy
> Division" on page 16.  They still won't give me a column, though.
>

Was this panning protopunker Iggy Stooge or saying that he's the same as he was
 in
the Stooges or both?

Bill King

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 3 Jun 1998 16:29:04 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: Site Revised!

This weekend I switched over the ADS web site (http://www.dfjp.com/ads/) to the
 new look, and I have been noodling it for the past few days

Changes include:

-- Added a separate search engine for the American Speech indexes, and included
 a note explaining that the available files are only indexes, not the full
 issues of the American Speech. I have a feeling a number of visitors thought
 they were getting the whole thing when clicked on the file links.

-- Tried to organize some kind of Reference Materials page. This includes Daniel
 Long's excellent list of CD-ROM dictionaries , Susan-Marie Harrington's Dialect
 in Literature Bibliography, and some other stuff I snagged from the list at
 times when dictionaries, textbooks, audiovisual materials and other related
 items came up. Except for the two items mentioned above, I have not attributed
 entries to anyone. If you want credit, please let me know.

-- Decreased loading times by eliminating some graphics.

-- Doubled the number of links on the links page, removed outdated items,
 provided descriptions for many of the links and categorized them. There are
 other, more substantial, links pages out there, and I have resisted the urge to
 borrow wholesale from them, but I think you'll find ours are plenty, and
 useful.

-- Got carried away with the color palette and changed the background to the
 color of Ozark mountain red clay (or as close as I could get) with bright
 yellow text on top of it. I expect a lot of positive mail on this one, I
 betcha.

-- All the calls for papers from the last couple months of ADS-L are now listed
 with the calls from the ADS Newsletter.

-- Added sectional navigation aids on each page underneath the standard site
 navigational strip.

-- Removed the student center. It got virtually no traffic, and our newly
 expanded links page should lead student to useful resources.

-- I did some basic editing: eliminated double spaces, de-jargonized where
 possible (mostly by spelling out acronyms), tried to eliminate words or
 sentences in ALL CAPS where appropriate,

I got no takers on the pre-pub error checking, so there are bound to be
 mistakes. Let me know when you find them! Nothing quite as bad as a language
 site full of typos and misspellings.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 3 Jun 1998 14:17:26 -0700
From:    "A. Vine" <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: RE>bogus anecdotes

Grant Barrett wrote:
>
>
> 10. Remember, the Metro Diary never runs stories about men masturbating on
 public transport, people walking down the street dripping blood, fishing just
 to survive in the Hudson River, getting spotted by your neighbor going into a
 porn shop, the time you berated the cleaning lady for not understanding
 English, which dry cleaner always cracks the buttons on your shirts, the time
 your purse was snatched, how nobody wears hats anymore and why, although
 Guiliani may be out of hand, you agree with his policy on food vendors because
 sometimes those over-cooked pretzels just *stink.*
>
>

That's Giuliani. ;-}

Andrea

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Jun 1998 to 3 Jun 1998
**********************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (6/2/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 31 May 1998 to 1 Jun 1998              98-06-02 00:00:48
There are 8 messages totalling 391 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. American /r/
  2. Grammar -- It's Not Just For the Classroom! (3)
  3. Linguistics education: possible jobs at Swarthmore
  4. American /r/ -Reply
  5. "You know what I mean" (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 1 Jun 1998 12:57:22 +0100
From:    Aaron Drews <aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.ED.AC.UK>
Subject: American /r/

Hello All,

I'm trying to find a book/reference that says the underlying sound in
American English for the words _bird_, _fur_, _butt_er_ is a single,
rhoticized phoneme.  The books in our library on American pronunciation
have not been helpful at all.  I've been recommended Kenyon, but our
library seems to only have a copy in its database rather than in any
readable form.

Do any of you know of a reference that claims a single _er_ sound?  Is
there anything out there that deals with American rhoticity in any great
depth?  Better yet, are any of these printed by a publisher with a British
affiliate?

Thanks for any help!

Aaron


========================================================================
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
+44 (0)131 650-3485                      Departments of English Language
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron                          and Linguistics

"MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
        --Death

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 1 Jun 1998 07:52:48 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Grammar -- It's Not Just For the Classroom!

>From the Metropolitan Diary column in today's NYTimes:

-----
Dear Diary:

Visiting an editor at Random House, I stepped into a crowded elevator and
found myself pressed close to the control panel. "Has everybody got their
floors?" I asked.  After a moment's silence, a young female voice from the
rear said, "His or her." "I beg your pardon?" I said. "His or her. It's
'Has everybody got his or her floors?' Your pronouns don't agree." "And
shouldn't it be 'his or her floor', not 'floors'?" a young man piped up.
"Each of us gets off at only one floor." "And wouldn't it be better to
say 'Does everybody have?' rather than 'Has everybody got?'" a third voice
chimed in. I stood corrected -- and red faced. But I was glad to know that
good grammar is alive and well.

RICHARD CURTIS
-----
Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 1 Jun 1998 09:24:18 EDT
From:    Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Linguistics education: possible jobs at Swarthmore

Jobs for Linguists.
        Swarthmore College has applied for an NSF grant to set up a
Linguistics Forum.  We will hear on August 1, 1998, whether or not we get
the funding.  If we do, we will have positions for one Ph.D. in Linguistics
and two BAs or MAs in Linguistics starting in Sept., 1998, and running for
two years with the possibility of an extension depending on further funding.
        We are now accepting applications for these positions with the
understanding that funding is pending.
        The Linguistics Forum will be an on-line educational forum for
Kindergarten through 12th grade students and their teachers.  These people
will write in to our web site with questions about language.  The questions
will be posted on a bulletin board, where linguist volunteers will select
questions to answer.  The answers will come back to the Linguistics Forum
staff (physically located at Swarthmore College) and we will then make sure
that they are appropriate for the age child/ classroom they are intended
for.  All answers should be designed to lead the child to the answer if
possible, through reasoning and experimentation.  And all answers should be
designed so that the child can bring an activity back for sharing in his or
her classroom.  Any questions that volunteer linguists do not answer will
be answered by the Forum staff (the three people we will hire plus various
faculty at Swarthmore College).
        The staff of the Forum must have a solid foundation in linguistics
(we won't consider anyone without at least a BA in Linguistics proper).
But the staff must also have:
        1) clear communicative skills
        2) creativity and vision
        3) comfort dealing with the internet
        4) interest across the board in theoretical and applied linguistics
        5) comfort dealing with children
        6) high tolerance for frustration
        All three staff members we hire will be involved both with
answering questions and in designing the Forum.  Part of our job over the
first two years will be to define our niche and to communicate that clearly
to the public.  The potential of the Forum is huge, and we need staff that
can envision that potential and help realize it.
        The Ph.D. will teach one course at Swarthmore College each academic
year.  In the fall of 1998, that course will probably be Morphology.  In
the fall of 1999, that course will probably be Historical & Comparative
Linguistics.  For this reason, the person must be a generativist (because
that's the kind of department we have at Swarthmore).  However, the person
need not be a specialist in either morphology or historical work, but
simply have a firm grounding in it.  The person will have the option of
working for only the 9 academic months the first year, or for working 12
months with a 1 month vacation in the summer.  During the second year,
however, the person must work for 12 months with just 1 month vacation.
The first year academic salary will be $45,000.  The summer salary (should
the person decide to work in the summer) will be $10,000.
        One of the BAs will be our web master and should have experience in
system administration, programming, and the internet.  This person will
write and maintain software, connect us with existing web resources, inform
us of these resources, set up a holding tank for the questions that come
in, design the archives for our answers, and basically build the structure
of the Forum. Skills in Unix/Linux will be helpful.
        One of the BAs will be our jack-of-all-trades, responsible for
outreach to the public and desk-top publishing as well as administrative
duties.  This person will handle all printed materials, publicity,
schedules of meetings with teachers and organizations, and so on.
        While the above descriptions make the two BA positions sound quite
distinct, in fact, the separation and sharing of duties will depend on the
particular people we hire -- so please consider the above descriptions as
fluid.
        Both BAs will be on a 12-month contract, with one summer month
vacation, salary being between $25k and $30k depending on duties.

        If you want to apply, here's what you must do.

(1) There is a Math Forum analogous to the Linguistics Forum we are
proposing.  You must take the internet tour of the Math Forum:
        http://forum.swarthmore.edu/dr.math/office_help/
Once you have done that tour, answer these two questions:
        (a) What are the strengths and weakness of the Math Forum?
        (b) How would you design a Linguistics Forum?
Your answers can be detailed or not, but they should not be longer than 3
double-spaced pages each please.  Send us those answers as part of your
initial application.

2) Please send a c.v. that includes your e-mail address if you have one (we
will communicate with you only by e-mail if you have an e-mail address),
your educational history, a description of your computer and internet
experience, and a description of your experience with children K-12.
        If you are not yet up to speed on the internet, tell us whether or
not you are willing to get up to speed on it before August and how you plan
to do that.

3) Please have three letters of recommendation sent and send us the names
of these recommenders with their e-mail addresses.  At least one
recommendation should be from a linguistics professor.  At most one can be
from a child aged K-12 that you have taught or tutored.

4) If you have a Ph.D. in linguistics, send three papers on linguistics
that you have written which show the breadth of your interests in the field.
    If you have a BA or MA in linguistics, send one paper in any area of
linguistics.

Swarthmore is an Equal Opportunity Employer.  Women and Minorities are
encouraged to apply.  Primary or secondary teaching experience is a plus.

All materials must be sent in hard copy form by August 10, 1998 to the
Forum Director:
        Donna Jo Napoli
        Linguistics
        Swarthmore College
        Swarthmore, PA 19081
Do not send these materials by e-mail.  However, if you have questions and
absolutely need a response before you can apply, please address them by
e-mail to dnapoli1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]swarthmore.edu.



Donna Jo Napoli
Prof. and Chair
Linguistics
Swarthmore College
Swarthmore, PA 19081
USA
(610) 328-8422
(610) 328-6558 - home
fax (610) 328-7323
dnapoli1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]swarthmore.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 1 Jun 1998 08:47:00 -0500
From:    Herb Stahlke <hstahlke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GW.BSU.EDU>
Subject: American /r/ -Reply

Aaron,

Both of the following references treat American
English and, in the first instance, Irish
rhotacized vowels as single segments.  The first
reference has a British publisher, the second a
British author.

Clark, John, and Colin Yallop.  1990.  An
Introduction to Phonetics and Phonology.
London:  Basil Blackwell.  P. 102.

Ladefoged, Peter.  1982.  A course in
Phonetics, Second Edition.  New York:
Harcourt Brace Jovanovich.  P. 78.  (There is a
more recent edition, but I don't have a copy.)

Herb Stahlke

>>> Aaron Drews <aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.ED.AC.UK>
06/01/98 06:57am >>>
Hello All,

I'm trying to find a book/reference that says the
underlying sound in
American English for the words _bird_, _fur_,
_butt_er_ is a single,
rhoticized phoneme.  The books in our library
on American pronunciation
have not been helpful at all.  I've been
recommended Kenyon, but our
library seems to only have a copy in its
database rather than in any
readable form.

Do any of you know of a reference that claims a
single _er_ sound?  Is
there anything out there that deals with
American rhoticity in any great
depth?  Better yet, are any of these printed by a
publisher with a British
affiliate?

Thanks for any help!

Aaron


========================================================================
Aaron E. Drews                               The
University of Edinburgh
+44 (0)131 650-3485
Departments of English Language
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron
 and Linguistics

"MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL
EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
        --Death

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 1 Jun 1998 10:50:40 +0000
From:    Maria Sansalone <msansalone[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: "You know what I mean"

Hi:
   I'm an editor at Merriam-Webster, Inc., the reference publishers.
I recently got a call from a college professor who would like
information on the phrase, "You know what I mean." He says that he's
been hearing it quite a bit in the speech of black college students.
He'd like to know if it's rooted in a recent movie, but from my brief
look into it, it appears to go back to at least the 20s in familiar
speech.  I appreciate any information.  Maria Sansalone

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 1 Jun 1998 11:01:10 -0400
From:    Alan Baragona <baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grammar -- It's Not Just For the Classroom!

At 07:52 AM 6/1/98 -0400, Bethany K. Dumas wrote:
>From the Metropolitan Diary column in today's NYTimes:
>
>-----
>Dear Diary:
>
>Visiting an editor at Random House, I stepped into a crowded elevator and
>found myself pressed close to the control panel. "Has everybody got their
>floors?" I asked.  After a moment's silence, a young female voice from the
>rear said, "His or her." "I beg your pardon?" I said. "His or her. It's
>'Has everybody got his or her floors?' Your pronouns don't agree." "And
>shouldn't it be 'his or her floor', not 'floors'?" a young man piped up.
>"Each of us gets off at only one floor." "And wouldn't it be better to
>say 'Does everybody have?' rather than 'Has everybody got?'" a third voice
>chimed in. I stood corrected -- and red faced. But I was glad to know that
>good grammar is alive and well.
>

And so is anal retention (should that be hyphenated?).  A pity the diarist
didn't think to say "Everybody is being pretty picky, isn't he or she?"

AB

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 1 Jun 1998 11:38:12 -0500
From:    Dennis Baron <debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Grammar -- It's Not Just For the Classroom!

Only at Random House, I suppose. And also only in an academic community: some
 years ago a grammar-minded soul apparently climbed up on the belt of the
 express lane at the checkout of a campus grocery store when no one was looking,
 x-ed out the "less" in "10 items or less" and with a marker scrawled in
 "fewer."  The manager chose to leave the emendation.  The store is now closed,
 a victim of less/fewer sales.



Dennis



Dennis Baron, Head              <italic>phone: </italic>217-333-2390

Department of English           <italic>fax: </italic>217-333-4321

University of Illinois          <italic>email: </italic>debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu

608 S. Wright Street            http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron

Urbana, IL 61801

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 1 Jun 1998 22:13:23 -0500
From:    Mike Salovesh <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: "You know what I mean"

Maria Sansalone wrote:
>
> Hi:
>    I'm an editor at Merriam-Webster, Inc., the reference publishers.
> I recently got a call from a college professor who would like
> information on the phrase, "You know what I mean." He says that he's
> been hearing it quite a bit in the speech of black college students.
> He'd like to know if it's rooted in a recent movie, but from my brief
> look into it, it appears to go back to at least the 20s in familiar
> speech.  I appreciate any information.  Maria Sansalone

Wow.  That calls for an anecdotal reply:

25 years ago, I taught a graduate seminar jointly with a political
scientist.  (I do political anthropology.)  We devoted the first several
meetings to consideration of the word "WYKWIM", an acronym for "Well,
you know what I mean".  We used the word to indicate that WYKWIM assumes
a commonality of background and tradition that is not necessarily
there.  The only proper answer to WYKWIM in our situation was "No, I
don't KWYM."

The point was that even though we often used the same words, they came
with entirely different baggage laid on by our different professional
cultures.  He and I were well aware of those differences, because we
both were inclined to multidisciplinary approaches -- but his political
science students were amazed at the "ignorance" of my anthropology
students, and vice versa.  That's why we taught the seminar in the first
place.  By its end, we had a much wiser body of participants.  They
proved it by recognizing that many troubles in communication come out of
false WYKWIMming.

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

P.S.:  Just before clicking "send", I remembered a song from the early
50s.  It was sung to U.S. armed forces people in bars all over Japan,
Korea, and the Far East Command.  The words I remember went

        "Met a girl in Tokyo, you know who I mean
         Said her name was Michiko, you know who I mean . . . "

The base clearly was an earlier, and well-established, "you know what I
mean".  Maybe some other Korean War veteran might be able to provide
more of the words.

And now, dammit, that song will be roaring around in my head for hours.
Thanks, I guess.  NOT.

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 31 May 1998 to 1 Jun 1998
***********************************************

======================================================================

There are 11 messages totalling 586 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Slang terms by historical period?
  2. Slang terms by historical period? -Reply
  3. PREPONE
  4. Searchable archive
  5. RE>Searchable archive
  6. 9guzillion9 (3)
  7. Fwd:  Communications Conference in Cuba (fwd)
  8. "the man" in WSVE
  9. Linguistic humor

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Jun 1998 09:56:51 EDT
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Slang terms by historical period?

     There is SLANG DOWN THE AGES: THE HISTORICAL DEVELOPMENT OF SLANG (1993)
by Jonathon Green.
     There is also a recent book by Writer's Digest books that has new words
through the years--I forget the title, but I'm sure any issue of Writer's
Digest has something about their books.
      For new American words year by year, there is also (Oh gee, what's that
book?) AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS (1997) by David K. Barnhart and Allan A.
Metcalf.
      All should be available within a few days through Amazon.com

--Barry Popik

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:55:48 -0400
From:    Evan Morris <emorris[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SKADDEN.COM>
Subject: Re: Slang terms by historical period? -Reply

Green's book is great, but it has a UK bias as well as a rather restricted =
scope.  Barnhart & Metcalf is also an excellent source, but, again, is =
necessarily somewhat restricted.  I think the questioner was looking for =
more of a regionally-focused historical glossary.  My guess is that he'd =
be happy with a list of terms typical of colonial and 19th century rural =
and urban life in the American South.

Of course, he could read the literature of the period and look stuff =
up....

>>> "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM> 06/15/98 08:56am >>>
     There is SLANG DOWN THE AGES: THE HISTORICAL DEVELOPMENT OF SLANG =
(1993)
by Jonathon Green.
     There is also a recent book by Writer's Digest books that has new =
words
through the years--I forget the title, but I'm sure any issue of Writer's
Digest has something about their books.
      For new American words year by year, there is also (Oh gee, what's =
that
book?) AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS (1997) by David K. Barnhart and Allan A.
Metcalf.
      All should be available within a few days through Amazon.com

--Barry Popik

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Jun 1998 10:56:30 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: PREPONE

This word, especially written in uppercase (all caps), has been in my vocabulary for some 20 years, but not very
actively, and not exactly in English. Let me explain.

In American Sign Language (ASL) the sign usually glossed 'postpone' -- or 'POSTPONE', according to the common
convention of referring to signs by uppercase glosses (useful, sloppy, let's not get into that here) -- incorporates a
forward movement. This movement goes along ASL's morphological time line, which maps distant past, near past,
present, near future, and distant future onto a continuum along the sagittal (back-front) axis and is basic to time
representation.

Not surprisingly (in terms of ASL morphology), the sign has an antonym, differing only in the direction of the movement:
backwards (toward the signer). "PREPONE" was the logical gloss for this sign. I don't know how long it has been in use
among sign linguists and interpreters; it may have been already standard when I came to the field in 1975 or so.

I'm not putting this forward as an antedate or to force anyone to back down, and I don't see any evidence that the word
advanced into broader use from this cross-lingual background. But it is a usage, albeit limited, that has existed in the US
for decades.

-- Mark

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:18:04 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Searchable archive

I just tried locating the archive via the ads-l website, but when I clicked
on "searchable archive" I landed at
http://www.dfjp.com/ads/spotlight.fcgi

--only to get the following message:

We're So Sorry!

Please tell the webmaster that Frontier couldn't process the request because:

This demo version of SpotLight has expired.
====================
Is there a different address other than this one that I (and others who try
to reach the website through http://www.dfjp.com/ads/adsl.htm) should be
trying?  I know I used the archive recently but must not have bookmarked
the proper URL.
Thanks to anyone who can help.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:26:01 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: RE>Searchable archive

Yes, the demo period for the search software has expired.

I'm waiting for the registration code now.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

--------------------------------------
Date: 6/15/98 11:24 AM
To: Grant Barrett
From: Larry Horn
I just tried locating the archive via the ads-l website, but when I
clicked
on "searchable archive" I landed at
http://www.dfjp.com/ads/spotlight.fcgi

--only to get the following message:

We're So Sorry!

Please tell the webmaster that Frontier couldn't process the request
because:

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Jun 1998 12:54:51 -0400
From:    Avi Arditti <Avi_Arditti[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEB.VOA.GOV>
Subject: Re: 9guzillion9

First, THANK YOU to all who replied to :youdaman.:  An excerpt from *Do The Right Thing,: pointed out by Grant Barrett, added some nice sound.

As Allan Metcalf knows, recently I have been doing a weekly feature on American English.  The spot is broadcast worldwide on Voice of America.  [My regular job is in VOA Special English, producing news and science programs  written in simplified English and read slower than standard English.]  I try to keep the feature topical.  For instance, we just finished a contest asking listeners to suggest new names for traditional letters written on paper, to distinguish them from e-mail.

Next Sunday the topic will be *g /uh/ zillion.* I have even heard :guzillionaire.: If anyone would like to contribute any thoughts, please do -- I might read your note on the air.

Avi Arditti
VOA Washington

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Jun 1998 11:00:08 -0700
From:    "A. Vine" <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: 9guzillion9

Avi Arditti wrote:
>
>
> Next Sunday the topic will be *g /uh/ zillion.* I have even heard :guzillionaire.: If anyone would like to contribute any thoughts, please do -- I might read your note on the air.
>

Avi,
I would write the word "gazillion" rather than "guzillion".  I'm trying to
figure out why, but I seem to see nonsense or augmentative words in English
having a "ga" at the beginning:  gaga, gads, gazonga, gargantuan.
Andrea

P.S.  Is VOA still using Xerox Globalview software?

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Jun 1998 14:34:40 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: 9guzillion9

At 11:00 AM -0700 6/15/98, A. Vine wrote:
>Avi Arditti wrote:
>>
>>
>> Next Sunday the topic will be *g /uh/ zillion.* I have even heard
>>:guzillionaire.: If anyone would like to contribute any thoughts, please
>>do -- I might read your note on the air.
>>
>
>Avi,
>I would write the word "gazillion" rather than "guzillion".  I'm trying to
>figure out why, but I seem to see nonsense or augmentative words in English
>having a "ga" at the beginning:  gaga, gads, gazonga, gargantuan.
>Andrea
>
For sure.  And it's not just an informal impression on Andrea's (or my)
part.  Nexis has exactly 6 cites of "guzillion" in its entire ALLNWS file.
It has 402 cites of "gazillion" just since 1/1/98.  There were 345 cites
during the same period (1/1 to 6/15) in 1997, which weakly suggests that
it's becoming more popular.  Either that, or inflation is kicking in.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:03:44 EDT
From:    Ron Butters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Fwd:  Communications Conference in Cuba (fwd)

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From: Maureen Cullins <mcullins[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acpub.duke.edu>
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I'm sure you've seen this.  -Maureen

>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 10 Jun 1998 08:47:07 -0700
>From: Lorrina Monique Duffy <lorid[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cats.ucsc.edu>
>Subject: Communications Conference in Cuba
>
>>>     SIXTH INTERNATIONAL SYMPOSIUM ON SOCIAL COMMUNICATION
>>>
>>>                         SANTIAGO DE CUBA
>>>                       JANUARY  25-28, 1999
>>>
>>>The Applied Linguistics Centre of Ministry of Science,
>>>Technology and Environment in Santiago de Cuba, is pleased
>>>to announce the Sixth International Symposium on Social
>>>Communication to be held in Santiago de Cuba, January
>>>25th-28th, 1999. This international event will focus on
>>>social communication processes from the points of view
>>>of Applied Linguistics, Computational Linguistics,
>>>Cybernetics, Medicine, Ethnology, Folklore and Mass
>>>Media Studies.
>>>
>>>The Symposium will be also sponsored by:
>>>
>>>.. University of Oriente, Cuba
>>>.. Higher Institute for Medical Sciences, Santiago de Cuba
>>>.. Information for Development Agency, CITMA, Cuba
>>>.. Humboldt University, Germany
>>>.. University of Twente, The Netherlands
>>>.. National Council of Researchs, Italy
>>>.. Linguists Association of Cuba
>>>
>>>Papers and Posters will be discussed within the following
>>>disciplines:
>>>
>>>1. Applied Linguistics:
>>>
>>>- Spanish and foreign languages teaching, translations,
>>>  scientific terminology, sociolinguistics, psycholin-
>>>  guistics, phonetics.
>>>
>>>2. Computational Linguistics:
>>>
>>>  Software related to:
>>>
>>>- Lexicological, lexicographic and grammatical research.
>>>- The compilation of automated monolingual, bilingual and
>>>  fraseological dictionaries.
>>>- Other uses of Computational Linguistics.
>>>
>>>3. Voice Processing:
>>>
>>>- Artificial intelligence applied to voice analysis,
>>>  synthesis and recognition.
>>>- Voice-processing equipment. Their use in informatics,
>>>  accoustic analysis and as aid for the hearing and sight
>>>  impaired.
>>>- Voice-processing research related to "Cry Analysis".
>>>
>>>4. Medical specialities related to pathological processes which
>>>use speech and voice analysis:
>>>
>>>- Presentations on research results showing the effects of
>>>  the use of words and communication for the treatment of
>>>  various illnesses.
>>>- Interdisciplinary treatment of logophoniatric patients
>>>  with vocal tract disorders.
>>>- Results of investigations related to diagnoses of Central
>>>  Nervous System diseases through the Cry Analysis method.
>>>
>>>5. Mass Media:
>>>
>>>- Language in the mass media.
>>>
>>>6. Ethnology and Folklore:
>>>
>>>- Papers related to ethnology, folklore and other aspects
>>>  of social communication.
>>>
>>>INTERNATIONAL WORKSHOPS
>>>
>>>- Lexicological and Lexicographic research.
>>>
>>>- Computational Linguistics: Automatic tagging of
>>>  textual corpora.
>>>
>>>Papers at workshops should be presented in 10 minutes.
>>>Scientific discussion will take place at the end of
>>>the workshop. At the papers there must be pointed out
>>>if they are meant for a workshop.
>>>
>>>ROUND TABLE
>>>
>>>At the Symposium there will be a Round Table on
>>>"New Technologies in the Mass Media. Their social impact."
>>>
>>>SUMMARIES
>>>
>>>A summary under 250 words must be sent before July 1st, 1998.
>>>
>>>PAPERS
>>>
>>>To enable us to deliver the Proceedings with the event
>>>documentation, accepted papers must be sent before
>>>September 1st, 1998, with the following requirements:
>>>
>>>1. Only 6 pages including graphics, notes and bibliography.
>>>
>>>2. Edited with Word 6.0 or Word 7.0 for Windows and
>>>   sent through e-mail (attachment) and 3 1/2 " diskette.
>>>
>>>3. Each page must have 55 lines maximun in a A4 (mail type)
>>>   format.
>>>
>>>INSTRUCTIONS FOR PAPERS PRESENTATION
>>>
>>>1. Write down the authors' names, one under the other,
>>>at the left top of the first page, all in Arial bold
>>>capital letters, 10 points size (Word 6.0 or 7.0).
>>>Under the authors'names it should appear the institution,
>>>city and country where they belong in bold but only
>>>initial capital letters.
>>>
>>>2. In a separate line, at the center, the title of the
>>>paper must be written in Arial bold, cursive, 11 points
>>>size letters.
>>>
>>>3. The text will follow -not in bold- with the same Arial
>>>letter, 10 points size and leaving a space between lines.
>>>
>>>4. Notes will appear at the end of each page in Arial 9
>>>points size letters.
>>>
>>>Presentation time will be 15 minutes and 5 minutes for
>>>discussion. Authors must declare if they need a tape
>>>recorder, video set, computer or other kind of equipment.
>>>
>>>All mail or enquiries should be addressed to:
>>>
>>>Dr. Eloina Miyares Bermudez
>>>Secretaria Ejecutiva Comite Organizador
>>>Apartado Postal 4067, Vista Alegre
>>>Santiago de Cuba 4, Cuba 90400
>>>Telephones: (53-226) 42760 or (53-226) 41081
>>>       Fax: (53-226) 41579
>>>    E-mail: leonel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lingapli.ciges.inf.cu
>>> Home page: http://wwwseti.cs.utwente.nl/Parlevink/cuba
>>>
>>>OFFICIAL LANGUAGES: Spanish and English.
>>>
>>>INSCRIPTION FEE:
>>>
>>>Speakers and Delegates......130.00 USD
>>>            Companions...... 70.00 USD
>>>Payment must be in cash during the registration.
>>>
>>>ACCOMODATION
>>>
>>>Santiago de Cuba has 4 and 5 Stars Hotels at the
>>>disposal of the participants who apply for them.
>>>The Organizing Committee will offer a special
>>>package with preferential prices.
>>>
>>>OTHER ASPECTS OF INTEREST
>>>
>>>Santiago de Cuba, located at some 900 kms from Havana,
>>>is Cuba's second largest city due to its economic,
>>>cultural and social importance. Santiago is also the
>>>capital of the province with the same name. Surrounded
>>>by the green mountains of the Sierra Maestra range and the
>>>Caribbean Sea, Santiago is unique in its geography and
>>>beautiful landscape. Its surroundings make the city one
>>>of the most important touristic attractions on the entire
>>>island. The Organizing Committee, in coordination with the
>>>city's tourist agencies will offer visiting delegates
>>>a host of options allowing participants to enjoy the
>>>city's beauty and charm.
>>>
>>>IMPORTANT REMINDERS
>>>
>>>.. July 1st, 1998
>>>  Submission of summaries
>>>
>>>.. July 15th, 1998
>>>  Information about the approval of the paper
>>>
>>>.. September 1th, 1998
>>>  Deadline for paper reception by diskette
>>>  and e-mail
>>>
>>>.. January 25th-28th 1999
>>>  Sixth International Symposium
>>>
>>>SCIENTIFIC AND ORGANIZING COMMITTEE
>>>
>>>President of Honor:
>>>
>>>Dr. Rosa Elena Simeon Negrin
>>>Minister of Science, Technology and
>>>Environment, Cuba
>>>
>>>Aida Almaguer Furnaguera - CITMA (*)
>>>Osvaldo Bebelagua C.     - Information for Development
>>>                           Agency, CITMA
>>>Vitelio Ruiz Hernandez   - Applied Linguistics Centre
>>>Eloina Miyares Bermudez  - Applied Linguistics Centre
>>>Marcos Cortina V.        - University of Oriente
>>>Nayra Pujals             - Higher Institute for Medical
>>>                           Sciences
>>>Renate Siegmund          - Humboldt University, Germany
>>>Kathleen Wermke          - Humboldt University, Germany
>>>Anton Nijholt            - University of Twente, The Netherlands
>>>Daniela Ratti            - CNR (**), Italy
>>>Lucia Marconi            - CNR, Italy
>>>Claudia Rolando          - CNR, Italy
>>>Margarita Hernandez S.   - CITMA
>>>Leonel Ruiz Miyares      - Applied Linguistics Centre
>>>Nancy Alamo Suarez       - Applied Linguistics Centre
>>>Gisela Cardenas Molina   - Linguists Association of Cuba
>>>Humberto Ocan~a Dayar    - Linguists Association of Cuba
>>>
>>>(*)CITMA- Ministry of Science, Technology and Environment, Cuba
>>>(**)CNR  - National Council of Researchs, Italy
>>>
>>>                    SIXTH INTERNATIONAL SYMPOSIUM ON SOCIAL
>>>                               COMMUNICATION
>>>
>>>                             REGISTRATION FORM
>>>
>>>Mr./Ms.
>>>________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>>Organization:
>>>__________________________________________________________
>>>
>>>Title:
>>>_________________________________________________________________
>>>
>>>Business address:
>>>______________________________________________________
>>>
>>>City: __________________ Telefax: _______________ Phone:
>>>_______________
>>>
>>>E-Mail:________________________________________________
>>>
>>>Home address:
>>>__________________________________________________________
>>>
>>>City: ___________________________  Telephone:
>>>__________________________
>>>
>>>Speaker _____   Participant ______  Companions ______
>>>
>>>Paper title:
>>>___________________________________________________________
>>>
>>>Date:_________________
>>>
>>>Signature:____________
>>
>
>
>
>=============================================================================
>



--part0_897959025_boundary--

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Jun 1998 21:58:23 EDT
From:    Ron Butters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: "the man" in WSVE

I am familiar with the term THE MAN from working-class white (and black)
speakers in the South (particularly in Wilmington, NC), who in the early 1970s
(and probably earlier) used the phrase to indicate what I would have indicated
by THE BOSS. For example, if someone came to a job site looking for work, he
might ask, "Who is the man?"

I'm not questioning  the fact that the spread of THE MAN as a recent vogue
term stems from AAVE, but I think it most likely that it originated in the
South in relationship to the general phrase BOSS MAN, rather than (as an
earlier writer suggested) specifically in AAVE as a term women used for their
husbands and bouyfriends.

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 15 Jun 1998 18:59:24 -0700
From:    "A. Vine" <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Linguistic humor

I apologize if I've sent this before - my mind is full of email and
charsets...Andrea


If lawyers are disbarred and clergymen defrocked, doesn't it follow
that...

Electricians can be delighted
Musicians denoted
Cowboys deranged
Models deposed
Dry cleaners depressed
Laundry workers could decrease, eventually becoming depressed and depleted!

Even more...

Bedmakers will be debunked
Baseball players will be debased
Landscapers will be deflowered
Bulldozer operators will be degraded
Organ donors will be delivered
Software QA engineers will be detested
The BVD company will be debriefed
Even musical composers will eventually decompose.

On a more positive note though, perhaps we can hope politicians will be
devoted.


Author unknown

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Jun 1998 to 15 Jun 1998
************************************************
There are 15 messages totalling 664 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. "the man" in WSVE (2)
  2. NEW YORK magazine's invented words
  3. Rock and Roll (1907 songs & 1920s-1930s lullabies)
  4. gazillion (3)
  5. PREPONE
  6. letters on paper
  7. RE>Re: gazillion
  8. non-email notes? (Re: 9guzillion9)
  9. <No subject given>
 10. Digital Dialect Archives
 11. ADS Site Search Resumes
 12. henna?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Jun 1998 01:27:49 -0400
From:    Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: "the man" in WSVE

In keeping with Ron's ideas, I seem to remember a line from the old song, "The
Midnight Special" that mentions working "for the man," or something to that
effect.  I know the song from CCR's cover, but it's been around a long time.  I'm
pretty certain Jimmy Rogers did it a long while back, as well as many R&B
artists.  In any case, it's certainly would point to southern origins for the
term.  That is, of course, if I'm remembering correctly.  Any help?

Ron Butters wrote:

> I am familiar with the term THE MAN from working-class white (and black)
> speakers in the South (particularly in Wilmington, NC), who in the early 1970s
> (and probably earlier) used the phrase to indicate what I would have indicated
> by THE BOSS. For example, if someone came to a job site looking for work, he
> might ask, "Who is the man?"
>
> I'm not questioning  the fact that the spread of THE MAN as a recent vogue
> term stems from AAVE, but I think it most likely that it originated in the
> South in relationship to the general phrase BOSS MAN, rather than (as an
> earlier writer suggested) specifically in AAVE as a term women used for their
> husbands and bouyfriends.

   --

Bob Haas
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu

"No matter where you go, there you are."

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:03:40 EDT
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: NEW YORK magazine's invented words

     This is from NEW YORK magazine, 22 June 1998, pages 110-111:

New York Magazine Competition

_Results of Competition 912_, in which you were asked to invent and define
goofy words.

_Report:_  Popular topics: Viagra, Cabdrivers, Elephants (no, I don't either).
Various animals.  _Titanic_.  Phobias.  Particularly pleasing:  not only the
clever invented word but the definition with a little pith to it ath well.  We
loved these results, and prize-picking was scattershot and difficult.  You're
a fine bunch, really.  And not a moment too soon, you ask.

_First Prize of two-year subscriptions to NEW YORK to:_
_nincompope_--only pontiff to flunk out of the College of Cardinals.  (Names
not included--ed.)
_coughkaesque_--waking up in the morning with a bug.
_rhesuscitation_--method of breathing new life into monkeys.

_Runner-up Prizes of one-year subscriptions to NEW YORK to:_
_babarian_--uncivilized elephant.
_lanaturnover_--girls' reversible sweater.
_chableep_--f[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]#$ing great white wine.

_And Honorable Mention to:_
_pollyannathane_--perpetual finish for cheerywood.
_munifiscent_--the smell of money market funds.
_condoment_--safe spice.
_vinducated_--chose wine expertly.
_minimealist_--gourmet chef.
_soap operatchik_--Party functionary on ALL MY COMRADES.
_marty gras_--Ernest Brognine film festival.
_lazyfaire_--a recliner for watching the financial news.
_virilesimilitude_--what you get when you take Viagra.
_cloudstrophobia_--fear of rain.
_portursanophobia_--fear of being molested by bears while using an outdoor
toilet.
_viagraphobia_--fear of sex in the marketplace.
_uniadversity_--school of hard knocks.
_duluthenasia_--the act of putting an entire Minnesota town to sleep.
_gradualated_--got a B.A. degree after six years.
_ivyprophen_--favorite headache remedy at Yale and Princeton.
_phenobarbiedoll_--plaything dressed in her pharmacist's outfit.

(about 50 more)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
     The book which I forgot the title of in the prior posting is ENGLISH
THROUGH THE AGES:  FROM OLD ENGLISH TO MODERN-DAY SLANG, A WORD-BY-WORD BIRTH
RECORD OF THOUSANDS OF INTERESTING WORDS by William Brohaugh (1998, hardcover,
586 pages, Writer's Digest Books, $24.99).
     It lists many categories and uses the years 1150, 1350, 1470, 1500, 1550,
1600, 1650, 1750, 1800, 1825, 1850, 1875, 1900, 1910, etc.  There is an index.
     No citations are given.  It includes some phrases, but not many.  Some of
the dates are off (unusual for a book about word dates!).  There's nothing to
show if the word or phrase is regional--or if it's British or American.
     The book is an interesting reference, but can hardly be used by itself.
So scan these words, then go to the OED or DARE or RHHDAS, find the works that
use these words, and read the whole work.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Jun 1998 03:04:18 EDT
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Rock and Roll (1907 songs & 1920s-1930s lullabies)

    This continues the study of "rock and roll," working backwards from Alan
Freed (1950s), the Rock-ola juke boxes (1940s), and the first citations of
"rock and roll" (1930s).
     The year 1907 was notable for both "rock" and "roll" in song titles.
"Rock-Rock-Rock" is a phrase that would be used in the 1940s and 1950s; its
"rocking chair" would become a popular song image in the 1930s.  Three "roll"
songs mention the rolling of roller skates or ocean waves.  It's the latter
image that was in 1934's "Rock and Roll."
      Various "rock-a-bye" lullabies from the 1920s and 1930s follow.

ROCK-ROCK-ROCK
(LET ME ROCK IN MY OLD ROCKING CHAIR)(1907)
by George Spink

When summer comes 'round and the boats on the Sound
Are hurrying here and there
I like to retreat from downtown in the street
And get to the good old sea air
I shake all my trouble then order my bubble
And after to drinks I've been blown
Get under the tap and put on my blue cap
And imagine the oceans I own
Rock rock rock
Let me rock in my old rocking chair
If I have a drink and a good cigar
The rest of the game, I can spare
Let those who prefer it a real sailor be
I know that it doesn't look lucky to me
I'd rather get Soused by myself than the sea
And rock in my old rocking chair. (...)

ROLL AROUND (1907)
by Harry B. Smith and Max Hoffman

Life is made up of fads and of folly
Like a lot of big children are we
And of all games there's none half so jolly
As the present revival we see
For oh, it is fun to be flying
With never a care for the fates
Like a bird on the wing
You can swing 'round the ring
With the girl that you love on skates, So
Roll A-round, A-round, a-round
To the music of the band
Slide a-way and glide a-way
There's nothing half so grand. (...)

THE ROLLER RINK FOR MINE (1907)
by Phelps Brown
...
The roller rink for mine
Oh, that's the place for a time
No auto or airship can compare
With the poetry of motion I find there
And so I skate with charming Kate till late quite late
The band begins to play
Ev'ry care is driven a-way
And so I say both night and day
The roller rink for mine. (...)

ROLL ON, THOU DEEP AND DARK BLUE OCEAN (1907)
by H. B. Dale and H. W. Petrie
...
Roll on, thou deep and dark blue ocean
Roll on, throwing thy billows high
Gone are the foes who dared to brave thee
Down in the deep they lie
Roll on, roll on, roll on, roll on
Thou deep blue sea
Roll on, roll on!

ROCK-A-BYE YOUR BABY WITH A DIXIE MELODY (1918)
by Sam M. Lewis and Jean Schwartz

(A huge hit for Al Jolson.  You know the words--ed.)

ROCKAWAY BABY (1920)
by Alex Rogers and C. Luckeyth Roberts

(A hit for Fanny Brice at the Ziegfeld Midnight Frolic, but the lyrics are
pedestrian--ed.)

ROCK-A-BYE LULLABYE MAMMY (1920)
by Grant Clarke and Walter Donaldson

HARLEM LULLABY (1932)
by Margot Millham and Willard Robison

Out on Sugar Hill at the close of day
Mammy's singin' her roundelay
Not the cradle songs you have heard before
Just a plaintive song of Harlem lore
Folks livin' up on Striver's Row
Don't sing rock-a-bys no mo
They chant hi-de-hi-de-ho (predates Calloway, not in RHHDAS--ed.), sweet and
low
Now ev'ry little coal black rose
'For he's very old he knows
 A Harlem lullaby. (...)

ROCKIN' ALONE (IN AN OLD ROCKING CHAIR)(1932)
by Bob Miller

Sitting alone in an old rockin' chair
I saw an old mother with silvery hair
She seem'd so neglected by those who should care
Rockin' Alone in an old rockin' chair. (...)

ROCK-A-BYE RIVER (from the SHOWBOAT REVUE of 1933, 2nd edition)
by Mitchell Parish and Frank Perkins
...
Rock me to sleep, Rock-a-bye River
Tell the story you have always told me
Let your lazy rhythm hold me
My love is deep, Rock-a-bye River. (...)

AN OLD LULLABY (1934)
by Walter Hirsch, Al Goering, and Ben Bernie
...
Rock-a-bye, rock-a-bye, baby
I can hear in memory
Go to sleep, go to sleep baby
It's the song of songs for me. (...)

RHYTHM LULLABY (1936)
by Andy Razaf and Paul Denniker
...
Oh rock-a-bye baby
Precious little sugar pie
Come close that other eye
Soon he will stop his winkin'
You'll hear a peaceful sign
And his slumber will be deep
As he tumbles off to sleep
To the magic of a rhythm lullaby.

SWING ME A LULLABY (1936)
by Don Raye, Hughie Prince, and Tom Waring

Rock a bye, my baby
My mama sings to me
In the tree-tops goin' sleepy bye
But I'd rather have a hot band
Rock my cradle and swing me a lullaby. (...)

THE KING OF SWING IS HAVIN' A DREAM (1936)
by Sammy Cahn and Saul Chaplin
...
A hundred saxes wail away
The rhythm they've got, makes them play
One clarinet starts to scream
The King of Swing is havin' a dream!
Rockin' in his rockin' chair he's hittin' high "c"
Tryin' new tricks, fancy clarinet licks
The kind musicians think are heavenly. (...)

    There's still more, but our Lincoln Center Library time ran out today.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:51:10 -0400
From:    Avi Arditti <Avi_Arditti[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEB.VOA.GOV>
Subject: Re: gazillion

Andrea Vine, Larry Horn, et al --

Intuition kept saying: :Spell it 9gazillion9; it just feels right, I don9t know why.:

Then Reason hit the delete key: :No, fool, that is pronounced 9g /ah/ zillion.9:

Dash that eternal conflict...thanks for setting me straight.  Perhaps gazillion will squeeze itself between :gazer: and :gazongas: in the next HDAS.  Meanwhile, I am off to ask some folks on the street just how much a gazillion is.

Sad that people don9t use 9googol.9 It9s such a fun existing word.

Andrea: yes, we still use Xerox Globalview (how did you know?) -- but not for much longer.  As we speak, crews are preparing to replace our 52-language word processing system with a WindowsNT-based system.

Avi

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Jun 1998 07:14:28 -0500
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: "the man" in WSVE

"The Midnight Special" was written by Hudie Ledbetter, known as
Leadbelly.  Leadbelly recorded the words Bob Haas partly recalls
in two different versions:

        Well it's on one table,
        knife and fork and pan ...

        ...  but if you say anything about it,
        you're in trouble with The Man.

        ...  but if you say anything about it,
        havin' trouble with The Man.

When Leadbelly sang it, you could almost hear the capital letters.

"The Midnight Special" was written in, and about, a Texas prison.
As Leadbelly told the story, if the midnight special train passing
the prison shone its light on a prisoner, that prisoner would go
free.

The story was at least partly true.  Leadbelly recorded "The
Midnight Special" while in prison on a very long sentence.
(He was in for either murder or manslaughter.)  The recording
was made for the Library of Congress; I think the recorders
were John and/or Alan Lomax.  Whoever made the recordings
started a campaign that eventually led the Governor of Texas
(which one? when? I don't know!) to commute Leadbelly's
sentence and set him free.

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

P.S.:  The gaps in this report are there because I'm writing
this out of my memories of singing with Leadbelly on a gig in
1948, and from hearing Al Lomax retell the prison story many
times.  Yeah, I know, I could look it up.  But Barry is the
guy who's working on songs from the 20s and 30s just now.  I
don't want to invade his turf.


Bob Haas wrote:
>
> In keeping with Ron's ideas, I seem to remember a line from the old song, "The
> Midnight Special" that mentions working "for the man," or something to that
> effect.  I know the song from CCR's cover, but it's been around a long time.  I'm
> pretty certain Jimmy Rogers did it a long while back, as well as many R&B
> artists.  In any case, it's certainly would point to southern origins for the
> term.  That is, of course, if I'm remembering correctly.  Any help?
>
> Ron Butters wrote:
>
> > I am familiar with the term THE MAN from working-class white (and black)
> > speakers in the South (particularly in Wilmington, NC), who in the early 1970s
> > (and probably earlier) used the phrase to indicate what I would have indicated
> > by THE BOSS. For example, if someone came to a job site looking for work, he
> > might ask, "Who is the man?"
> >
> > I'm not questioning  the fact that the spread of THE MAN as a recent vogue
> > term stems from AAVE, but I think it most likely that it originated in the
> > South in relationship to the general phrase BOSS MAN, rather than (as an
> > earlier writer suggested) specifically in AAVE as a term women used for their
> > husbands and bouyfriends.
>
>    --
>
> Bob Haas
> University of North Carolina at Greensboro
> rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu
>
> "No matter where you go, there you are."

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Jun 1998 09:57:57 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: PREPONE

I posted to SLLING-L, the Sign Language Linguistics List, to find out about the use of "prepone" in that milieu beyond my
own knowledge. So far I've gotten two replies:

\\\\\

When discussing physical/psychological assessment results, I sometimes also use this sign/term in the context of
developmental delays and it conveys the meaning very well-if not better then the English phrase.

Steven Hardy-Braz
ENCSD Psychologist

\\\\\

I've used that word for a loooooon time -- 20+ years???  I heard it from Susan Fischer, and thought it was just a clever
neologism!  I had NO IDEA it was used elsewhere!

Tane Akamatsu

\\\\\

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:05:01 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: letters on paper

Avi Arditti wrote (discussing "g /uh/ zillion"):
 >>>

For instance, we just finished a contest asking listeners to suggest new names for traditional letters written on paper, to
distinguish them from e-mail.
 <<<

FWIW, I call this stuff "hardmail", on the model of "hard copy" (as opposed to a copy of an electronic file, that is simply a
duplicate, another electronic file). This term, and whatever your listeners suggested (what won, BTW?), are
RETRONYMS.

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Jun 1998 10:18:14 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: RE>Re: gazillion

From: Avi Arditti
> Sad that people don9t use 9googol.9 It9s such a fun existing word.

> Andrea: yes, we still use Xerox Globalview (how did you know?) -- but
not for much longer.  As we > speak, crews are preparing to replace our
52-language word processing system with a
> WindowsNT-based system.

I used googol as a kid. Googolplex, too. We used to bet each other a
googolplex dollars that we were right about something. My siblings
still owe me about a googolplex to the power of googolplex dollars, and
I fully expect to collect.

Regarding moving to a WindowsNT-based multilanguage system: What kind of
masochists are you people?

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:34:53 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: gazillion

At 7:51 AM -0400 6/16/98, Avi Arditti wrote:
>Andrea Vine, Larry Horn, et al --
>
>Intuition kept saying: :Spell it 9gazillion9; it just feels right, I don9t
>know why.:
>
>Then Reason hit the delete key: :No, fool, that is pronounced 9g /ah/
>zillion.9:
>
>Dash that eternal conflict...thanks for setting me straight.  Perhaps
>gazillion will squeeze itself between :gazer: and :gazongas: in the next
>HDAS.  Meanwhile, I am off to ask some folks on the street just how much a
>gazillion is.
>
>Sad that people don9t use 9googol.9 It9s such a fun existing word.
>
Not to mention "googolplex"--1 followed by a googol of zeros, where a
googol is 1 followed by 100 zeros, both dubbings from George Gamow's _One,
Two, Three, Infinity_ (1947).  I think "googol" was suggested by his young
son.     --Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:04:45 PDT
From:    Phil Thomas <preakness1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: gazillion

Larry Horn wrote:

>Not to mention "googolplex"--1 followed by a googol of zeros, where a
>googol is 1 followed by 100 zeros, both dubbings from George Gamow's
>_One, Two, Three, Infinity_ (1947).  I think "googol" was suggested
>by his young son.

This is true-- I've seen variations on the spelling of the word,
although it's usually either "googol" or "googool".  For more
information than you may possibly desire on the subject, there's a web
page devoted to it:
http://www.informatik.uni-frankfurt.de/~fp/Tools/Googool.html

Back to the "gazillion" discussion... I have also seen (albeit less
often) the word "bazillion" used.  It's pretty clear as to what they're
supposed to convey, but I have no idea about the origin of these words.

-Phil



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:07:45 PDT
From:    Phil Thomas <preakness1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: non-email notes? (Re: 9guzillion9)

Avi Arditti wrote:

>For instance, we just finished a contest asking listeners to suggest
>new names for traditional letters written on paper, to distinguish
>them from e-mail.

"Snail mail" seems to be fairly common, although this implies that the
letter has been sent via post, and not just a written note handed to
another person.



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Jun 1998 12:13:58 PDT
From:    Phil Thomas <preakness1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: <No subject given>

Ron Butters wrote:

>I am familiar with the term THE MAN from working-class white (and
>black)speakers in the South (particularly in Wilmington, NC), who in
>the early 1970s (and probably earlier) used the phrase to indicate
>what I would have indicated by THE BOSS. For example, if someone came
>to a job site looking for work, he might ask, "Who is the man?"

As well as "The Man" being invoked to represent establishment,
government, or other 'higher powers', it seems to have some roots in
drug culture; reference "Waiting For My Man" by the Velvet Underground,
a song about nothing more than waiting for a heroin dealer to show up
with his wares, where the drug dealer is the narrator's "Man".

Does anyone know of any other examples in this vein (um, no pun
intended)?

-Phil



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Jun 1998 15:34:13 -0500
From:    Paul Meier <pmeier[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EAGLE.CC.UKANS.EDU>
Subject: Digital Dialect Archives

Several of my colleagues who teach accents and dialects, and who act as
dialect coaches to film, the theater and television perceive the need
for a digital archive of primary source recordings of regional American
English , primary source recordings of regional English dialects from
other English-speaking countries, and primary source recordings of
English spoken with an accent.  Such an archive could be
internet-accessible, and sound files contributed and disseminated that
way.

I am designing such an archive and my questions to my colleagues in ADS
are these:

1.  Is anyone aware of the existence of such an archive, or plans to
construct one?

2.   Does such an archive seem feasible and useful?

3.    What protocols do you envisage to ensure recordings that would
have the widest validity for academic research across many disciplines?

4.    What might make it attractive to you to contribute primary source
recordings from your area of the world for inclusion in such an archive?

5.  Would you be interested in receiving a short description of the
archive as it is currently imagined?

Please reply to me personally on any or all of these four points.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Jun 1998 18:05:18 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: ADS Site Search Resumes

I have finally received the serial number to take our ADS Site search
engine beyond the demo stage. You can, once again, search the ADS-L
archives and the American Speech indexes. Please accept my apologies
for the delay.

One a side note: I will be in Missouri from Friday June 19 to Monday
June 29. I will be checking email (with my new Palm Pilot III, a
magical invention), attending a landmark anniversary dinner for my
parents, attending my high school reunion and riding round-trip on the
Katy Trail (about 360 miles).

Second side note: Today I analyzed the web site logs and found that
besides hits off of search engines in which the visitor stays about ten
seconds (we were obviously not what they were looking for), we receive
most of our linked visits from the DARE page
(http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html), Jesse Sheidlower's page
at Random House (http://www.randomhouse.com/jesse/links.html) and our
page at the American Council of Learned Societies
(http://www.acls.org/adials.htm). Most of the rest of the visits are
from crawlers/email-address-grabbers and folks who entered the site
address manually or have it bookmarked.

Grant Barrett
ADS Web Geek
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 16 Jun 1998 20:07:24 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: henna?

Is anyone familiar with this?

> -----Original Message-----
> Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 1998 7:52 AM
> To:   Multiple recipients of list HealthMgmt
> Subject:      Nutritional Services
>
> Nice day, henna?
>
> (A Wilkes-Barre Area colloquialism. "Henna" translates most closley as
> "ain't it". The locals are called "Hennas". Just thought you'd enjoy a
> slight diversion before I asked you my questions.)
-----

Bethany

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Jun 1998 to 16 Jun 1998
************************************************
There are 26 messages totalling 643 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. guzillions
  2. New Verb? (5)
  3. e-mail/paper mail (10)
  4. henna? (2)
  5. Virtual Graffito
  6. Neologism?: Cybrarian (5)
  7. snail mail
  8. Transatlantic E-mail

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 00:22:24 -0700
From:    Bill King <wfking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOTNET.NET>
Subject: Re: guzillions

The basis of the difference is phonetic.  Guh is Northern.  Gah is Western and Midland.   What do people say in New Orleans?

In the West, where Otto = auto, gazillion.  On the East Coast, guzillion.

There are godzooms of other guh- gah- words out there.   Is it possible that
the g+vowel is based on 1) a nonsense syllable meant to convey  the notion of disbelief, and that possibly this is based on "God," as in "God knows!" or
"God Almighty...!" a la gadzooks?

Bill King



A. Vine wrote:

> Avi Arditti wrote:
> >
> >
> > Next Sunday the topic will be *g /uh/ zillion.* I have even heard :guzillionaire.: If anyone would like to contribute any thoughts, please do -- I might read your note on the air.
> >
>
> Avi,
> I would write the word "gazillion" rather than "guzillion".  I'm trying to
> figure out why, but I seem to see nonsense or augmentative words in English
> having a "ga" at the beginning:  gaga, gads, gazonga, gargantuan.
> Andrea
>
> P.S.  Is VOA still using Xerox Globalview software?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:25:17 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: New Verb?

The Knoxville News-Sentinel, June 17, 1998

UT board ponders fee hike

By Jacques Billeaud, News-Sentinel staff writer

Students at the University of Tennessee-Knoxville may pay $168 more next
school year to give professors merit raises.

The increase, which UT's board will consider today and Thursday, is
necessary to bring faculty pay closer to peer schools, officials
said.

The raises would be to reward outstanding professors and to prevent some
teachers from leaving, said UT President Joe Johnson. "You
don't want another institution to cherry-pick you."
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:40:08 -0400
From:    Avi Arditti <Avi_Arditti[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEB.VOA.GOV>
Subject: Re: e-mail/paper mail

Recently, as part of a new segment on American language, I held a contest on Voice of America. We asked listeners to suggest a new name for traditional letters written on paper, to distinguish them from e-mail.

The deadline was May 24.  We received 15 e-mails, 12 letters and two postcards from all over the world. Other postal mail may still be on the way, lending support to the term :snail mail.:  However, few listeners suggested that term for traditional letters.

P-words like postal mail or paper mail proved popular [no, I did not say that on the air.]  But the entries ranged from *inkmail: [Eritrea] to *scratch-and-scrawl mail: [Ukraine], from :OFL:  for :old fashioned letter: [Egypt]  to *NEPOST*  [/knee-post/] for  :not-electronic post: [Sweden].

Several suggestions came from China, including this e-mail note: *To replace the derogatory name of snail mail or S-mail, my suggestion is 9Good Old Mail,9 or GOMail, pronounced jee-oh-mail, not go-mail, for short. Another short form is GOM, to rhyme with 9mom.9:

A Nigerian listener suggested *G-mail: for *gas mail: because letters are transported in gas-powered vehicles.  Then he added that :L-mail: [leg mail] would be more appropriate right now because of Nigeria9s fuel scarcity.

I also asked listeners what to call an electronic message itself -- *send me e-mail:?  *send me an e-mail:? :send me an e-mail message:? -- as well as the plural form. Is it :e-mails*?

I got the idea for the contest from a Chinese listener who asked if English had a word for letters on *genuine: paper instead of e-mails. Some of the entries were quite funny and imaginative. We had five minutes to present the best ones on the air. I did not pick one winner, per se; rather, the better the entry, the better the prize.

I am tempted to try to publish the entries somewhere. I would think the idea for such a naming game might interest ESL/EFL teachers, which is why I am cross-posting this message to ADS-L and TESL-L.

Avi Arditti
VOA Washington
avi_arditti[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neb.voa.gov

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:03:35 -0600
From:    Joan Houston Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: henna?

DARE has this at "haina," and equates it to "ainna."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:20:24 -0400
From:    Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: New Verb?

> The raises would be to reward outstanding professors and to prevent some
> teachers from leaving, said UT President Joe Johnson. "You
> don't want another institution to cherry-pick you."

I think this has been increasingly common the last [N] years;
we've been collecting a fair amount of evidence for it.

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:14:09 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Re: henna?

On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Joan Houston Hall wrote:

> DARE has this at "haina," and equates it to "ainna."
>
= "ain't it"?

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:12:18 +1000
From:    Ross Chambers <maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OZEMAIL.COM.AU>
Subject: Virtual Graffito

This may fall into possible urban myth territory, my apologies if
so--although I would be pleased to correct the source if that is the
case!

The Sydney Morning Herald reports:

"The age of the Internet is here, says Derek Adams-White. 'I saw some
graffiti on a public toiletx wall at a city railway station that
included an e-mail address.'"

x(men's room)

Kind regards - Ross Chambers
--

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Ross Chambers           Sydney       Australia
maelduin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ozemail.com.au

"L'Australia non e solo agli antipodi, e lontana da tutto,
  talora anche da sa stessa."

(Australia is not only  at the Antipodes, she is away from everything,
sometimes even from herself)

Umberto Eco

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 11:51:43 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: Neologism?: Cybrarian

This word appeared in an announcement (on LINGUIST List, http://www.linguistlist.org/issues/9/9-897.html)
for a resource described thus:

        Guavaberry Books presents "Domino" Traditional Children's Songs Proverbs
        and Culture from the American Virgin Islands

It appeared in a heading:

        Key Words for Librarian / Cybrarian

        West Indian Culture, American Virgin Islands, Caribbean Folksongs,
        Folklore, Ebonics, ESL, Linguistics, Juvenile Literature, Elementary Music
        Education, Orff Schulwerk, Kodaly, American History, Afro American Studies,
        Black History Month, social studies, popular culture, games, Proverbs

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:08:30 -0400
From:    Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: e-mail/paper mail

I've heard "snail mail" for so long that I believed that it was comman parlance for hard copy.   BTW, in keeping with that metaphor, did anyone suggest "hard mail?"  And the plural of "e-mail" is simply "e-mail," is it not?

Avi Arditti wrote:

> Recently, as part of a new segment on American language, I held a contest on Voice of America. We asked listeners to suggest a new name for traditional letters written on paper, to distinguish them from e-mail.
>
> The deadline was May 24.  We received 15 e-mails, 12 letters and two postcards from all over the world. Other postal mail may still be on the way, lending support to the term :snail mail.:  However, few listeners suggested that term for traditional letters.
>
> P-words like postal mail or paper mail proved popular [no, I did not say that on the air.]  But the entries ranged from *inkmail: [Eritrea] to *scratch-and-scrawl mail: [Ukraine], from :OFL:  for :old fashioned letter: [Egypt]  to *NEPOST*  [/knee-post/] for  :not-electronic post: [Sweden].
>
> Several suggestions came from China, including this e-mail note: *To replace the derogatory name of snail mail or S-mail, my suggestion is 9Good Old Mail,9 or GOMail, pronounced jee-oh-mail, not go-mail, for short. Another short form is GOM, to rhyme with 9mom.9:
>
> A Nigerian listener suggested *G-mail: for *gas mail: because letters are transported in gas-powered vehicles.  Then he added that :L-mail: [leg mail] would be more appropriate right now because of Nigeria9s fuel scarcity.
>
> I also asked listeners what to call an electronic message itself -- *send me e-mail:?  *send me an e-mail:? :send me an e-mail message:? -- as well as the plural form. Is it :e-mails*?
>
> I got the idea for the contest from a Chinese listener who asked if English had a word for letters on *genuine: paper instead of e-mails. Some of the entries were quite funny and imaginative. We had five minutes to present the best ones on the air. I did not pick one winner, per se; rather, the better the entry, the better the prize.
>
> I am tempted to try to publish the entries somewhere. I would think the idea for such a naming game might interest ESL/EFL teachers, which is why I am cross-posting this message to ADS-L and TESL-L.
>
> Avi Arditti
> VOA Washington
> avi_arditti[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neb.voa.gov

   --

Bob Haas
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu

"No matter where you go, there you are."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:16:55 -0700
From:    Peter Richardson <prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: snail mail

Snail mail has a worthy antecedent in German Schneckenpost, which has been
around for at least 40 years. To my knowledge, the term refers not to
"normal mail" as opposed to email, but rather to any outrageously slow
means of transportation, e.g. the milk train.

Peter Richardson

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:27:21 -0400
From:    Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: Neologism?: Cybrarian

I think _cybrarian_ was a candidate for one of the ADS
Words of the Year a few years back, wasn't it? Perhaps
Allan can remember the category and date.

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 09:23:51 +0000
From:    Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: e-mail/paper mail

On Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:08:30 -0400 Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>
wrote:

> I've heard "snail mail" for so long that I believed that it was
comman parlance for hard copy.   BTW, in keeping with that metaphor,
did anyone suggest "hard mail?"  And the plural of "e-mail" is simply
"e-mail," is it not?
>

I'd say "e-mail" is either singular or collective, but not plural.  It
seems perfectly natural to say, "He sent me three e-mails yesterday."

BTW, there was a discussion awhile (a couple of years?) ago on this
list prompted, as I remember, by a New York Times solicitation of
opinion as to the grammar of the singular of the term.  The question,
as I recall, boiled down to, "Does one say 'AN e-mail'?"  I was one who
piped up and said that seemed unnatural to me and that I would tend
to say "an e-mail MESSAGE."  I'm sure others said the same, though I
don't remember how many did or how many found "an e-mail" acceptable.

Whenever that was, the medium was still that much newer, and my sense
is that "an e-mail" has become well established in the meantime. I
personally use "an e-mail" probably several times a day.  Is there
anyone out there who would still find it unnatural?

Peter

----------------------
Peter A. McGraw
Linfield College
McMinnville, Oregon
pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linfield.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:21:39 -0700
From:    Peter Richardson <prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: e-mail/paper mail

I take it, then, that the plural of "an e-mail" is "some e-mail" and not
"e-mails." If necessary, "two email messages," but not "two emails." Or
maybe "ease-mail?"

Peter

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 10:29:48 PDT
From:    barbara harris <GRADMA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVVM.UVIC.CA>
Subject: Re: e-mail/paper mail

Around here (western Canada, and eastern, too, for all I know), we certainly
do use the plural e-mails, as in, "When I got back from my holidays, I had
125 e-mails waiting for me." or, "Did you get my e-mails?" Yes, I could
say "messages," but they never are all what I would consider true messages.

And we also use "e-mail" as a verb:
"You can always e-mail me; it's probably better than trying to reach me by
phone." Or,  "E-mail it to me."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:53:58 -0400
From:    Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: e-mail/paper mail

I would agree with this usage.  When I write that the plural of e-mail is
e-mail, I'm using it as a collective noun.  I've never really been
comfortable with "e-mails," but why would I need to be?  I agree with
Peter.  I don't have four e-mails to answer; I have some e-mail to answer,
or four messages in my e-mail.  The analogy here is message=letter for me.
I would never have said of traditional mail, "Look, the postman brought me
three mails!"  But this, of course, is only my perspective.


Peter Richardson wrote:

> I take it, then, that the plural of "an e-mail" is "some e-mail" and not
> "e-mails." If necessary, "two email messages," but not "two emails." Or
> maybe "ease-mail?"
>
> Peter

   --

Bob Haas
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu

"No matter where you go, there you are."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 14:03:26 -0500
From:    Natalie Maynor <maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU>
Subject: Re: e-mail/paper mail

> Whenever that was, the medium was still that much newer, and my sense
> is that "an e-mail" has become well established in the meantime. I
> personally use "an e-mail" probably several times a day.  Is there
> anyone out there who would still find it unnatural?

Yes.  I hear it occasionally, but it still sounds strange to me.
I would say "Send me e-mail" or "I got e-mail from him" or "I read
it in e-mail."  Never with "an" inserted.
   --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:35:28 EDT
From:    Carol Andrus <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: New Verb?

Cherry-picking is a common term  here in NYC. A store offers a "loss leader"
i.e., something they lose money on just to lure the customer into the store,
so a common expression is "I went cherry-picking along Broadway today." i.e.,
I went into all the stores and bought their loss-lead stuff, but didn't buy
anything else.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:39:40 EDT
From:    Carol Andrus <CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Neologism?: Cybrarian

On the note of the American Virgin Islands, "I don't know" is "me ain no."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 20:46:14 +0100
From:    Aaron Drews <aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.ED.AC.UK>
Subject: Transatlantic E-mail

I remember when I was at Edinburgh for an undergraduate year, and "e-mail"
was always treated as a count noun, with "an" and "-s".  It sounded wierd
to me.

Then I got back to the States, and I seldom heard it as a count noun, but
certainly as a transitive verb.

Now I'm back at Edinburgh and I'm all confused.  For me, it's now a count
noun and a transitive verb.  It's usually only the technologically
advanced people here that use 'e-mail' as a transitive verb.

Has anybody heard an e-mail address referred to as an e-mail number?
That's common here, at least amongst the student population.  Then again,
all of the students' addresses use their matriculation number.

--Aaron


========================================================================
Aaron E. Drews                               The University of Edinburgh
+44 (0)131 650-3485                      Departments of English Language
http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron                          and Linguistics

"MERE ACCUMULATION OF OBSERVATIONAL EVIDENCE IS NOT PROOF"
        --Death

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:41:34 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Re: New Verb?

At 3:35 PM -0400 6/17/98, Carol Andrus wrote:
>Cherry-picking is a common term  here in NYC. A store offers a "loss leader"
>i.e., something they lose money on just to lure the customer into the store,
>so a common expression is "I went cherry-picking along Broadway today." i.e.,
>I went into all the stores and bought their loss-lead stuff, but didn't buy
>anything else.

I don't think that the intrans. verb "cherry-pick" is particularly new --
it is new to me as a transitive verb.

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:53:45 PDT
From:    Phil Thomas <preakness1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: New Verb?

Bethany K Dumas wrote:

>The raises would be to reward outstanding professors and to prevent
>some teachers from leaving, said UT President Joe Johnson. "You
>don't want another institution to cherry-pick you."
>                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

In sports (commonly basketball and hockey), "cherry-picking" is when a
player stays back near the opposing goal, in the hopes that a teammate
will get the ball/puck, and pass it up the length of the playing surface
so s/he can make an undefended goal attempt.

-Phil



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 12:59:22 -0700
From:    "A. Vine" <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: e-mail/paper mail

barbara harris wrote:
>
> Around here (western Canada, and eastern, too, for all I know), we certainly
> do use the plural e-mails, as in, "When I got back from my holidays, I had
> 125 e-mails waiting for me." or, "Did you get my e-mails?" Yes, I could
> say "messages," but they never are all what I would consider true messages.
>
> And we also use "e-mail" as a verb:
> "You can always e-mail me; it's probably better than trying to reach me by
> phone." Or,  "E-mail it to me."

Here in the land of email servers, we hear much of what Barbara is describing.
"Did you get my email?" implies 1 message.  "Did you get my emails?" has a note
of urgency, as the person has sent several emails and apparently received no
response.  However, if I want to talk about the messages in general, I might say
"I get a lot of email".  If I quantify the remark, I would say "I get 50 emails
a day."  Using "messages" is ambiguous, as voice mail is widely used around here
(though not by engineers!)

Usage as a verb is also common.  Sometimes people will just say "mail it to me",
with the "e" being contextually implied or inferred, or also "forward/send it to
me".  But if the context is not clear, you will hear "I emailed you the
document."

This seems to happen a lot in high tech (probably elsewhere, but I'm not privy
to that).  For example, my field is software internationalization, which is
abbreviated "i18n".  In documents discussing software, people write that a
certain product is not i18ned (not me, but some folks).  This is pronounced
'aye-eighteen-enned', and yes, it is often used instead of saying
"internationalized".  And so i18n has been verbed, as has its counterpart, l10n
(abbreviation of localization).

I think techies really like to have words with numbers in them.  Some folks
around here quote standards by number, and will use the number as a verb.

Andrea
who is busy i18ning

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 13:06:56 -0700
From:    "A. Vine" <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: e-mail/paper mail

I think the most interesting thing about the suggestions is their nature.  To a
certain extent, they reflect the character of the native language of the person
who coined the term.  For me it was the Swedish term which I found particularly
interesting, as a negation or opposition of the term "electronic post".

I also would expect that the preferred pronunciation of the Chinese term would
be scrapped in favor of 'go-mail', both because readable acronyms in English
tend to be pronounced as words, and because the sound 'jee-oh' has its own,
unrelated meaning.

Andrea

Avi Arditti wrote:
>
> Recently, as part of a new segment on American language, I held a contest on Voice of America. We asked listeners to suggest a new name for traditional letters written on paper, to distinguish them from e-mail.

>
> P-words like postal mail or paper mail proved popular [no, I did not say that on the air.]  But the entries ranged from *inkmail: [Eritrea] to *scratch-and-scrawl mail: [Ukraine], from :OFL:  for :old fashioned letter: [Egypt]  to *NEPOST*  [/knee-post/] for  :not-electronic post: [Sweden].
>
> Several suggestions came from China, including this e-mail note: *To replace the derogatory name of snail mail or S-mail, my suggestion is 9Good Old Mail,9 or GOMail, pronounced jee-oh-mail, not go-mail, for short. Another short form is GOM, to rhyme with 9mom.9:
>
> A Nigerian listener suggested *G-mail: for *gas mail: because letters are transported in gas-powered vehicles.  Then he added that :L-mail: [leg mail] would be more appropriate right now because of Nigeria9s fuel scarcity.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 16:05:55 -0400
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Neologism?: Cybrarian

I assume you mean "Me ain' know," not "no."  Creole speakers don't confuse
'know' and 'no.'

At 03:39 PM 6/17/98 -0400, you wrote:
>On the note of the American Virgin Islands, "I don't know" is "me ain no."
>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 17:40:43 EDT
From:    Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Neologism?: Cybrarian

Jesse writes:

>I think _cybrarian_ was a candidate for one of the ADS
>Words of the Year a few years back, wasn't it? Perhaps
>Allan can remember the category and date.

I think it was discussed, but I don't find it in the database of *chosen*
words for any year.

- Allan Metcalf

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 18:28:57 -0400
From:    Wendalyn Nichols <wnichols[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RANDOMHOUSE.COM>
Subject: Re: e-mail/paper mail

I'm perfectly comfortable saying "I got fifteen e-mails in one day from
ADS-L."




Peter Richardson <prichard [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] LINFIELD.EDU> on 06/17/98 01:21:39 PM

Please respond to American Dialect Society <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

To:   ADS-L [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
cc:    (bcc: Wendalyn Nichols/Trade/RandomHouse)
Subject:  Re: e-mail/paper mail




I take it, then, that the plural of "an e-mail" is "some e-mail" and not
"e-mails." If necessary, "two email messages," but not "two emails." Or
maybe "ease-mail?"

Peter

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Jun 1998 to 17 Jun 1998
************************************************
There are 23 messages totalling 1189 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. bazillions..
  2. plural's - a new development? (3)
  3. Linguistic humor (fwd)
  4. Long story on Melungeons (2)
  5. Estuary English (3)
  6. plural's - a new development? (LONG repost)
  7. "email"
  8. "concerning," adj. (4)
  9. Plus Size Singles
 10. RE>Plus Size Singles (2)
 11. "skell" update
 12. R.I.P., Tom Creswell
 13. meat-eater & qualifer
 14. Meat-eater & qualifier

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:17:25 -0400
From:    Bryan Gick <bgick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAPIR.LING.YALE.EDU>
Subject: bazillions..

> Avi,
> I would write the word "gazillion" rather than "guzillion".  I'm trying
> to figure out why, but I seem to see nonsense or augmentative words in
> English having a "ga" at the beginning:  gaga, gads, gazonga, gargantuan.
> Andrea

I haven't really been following this string, but upon noticing it, I
thought it might be relevant that "bazillion" is about as familiar to me
as "gazillion" (I'm from rural NW Pennsylvania).
This, of course, leads to further conjecture on the mysterious
augmentative onomatoprefix "ba-" (cf. "bazooms", bazooka, balloon, etc.).
Also re. the "ga-", how about the "ka-" in "kaboom", "kablam", etc.?
"kaboodle" (whole kit and _)?
Bryan

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Jun 1998 00:52:21 -0400
From:    Bryan Gick <bgick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAPIR.LING.YALE.EDU>
Subject: plural's - a new development?

While I'm at it...

I've been noticing something for the last few months that I can't ignore
anymore: Lots of people seem to be using the orthographic apostrophe-s
plural only after (orthographic?) vowels! A text will typically have lots
and lots of standard -s plurals with one or two -'s ones tossed in. So
far, all and only those words ending in a, o and i get -'s, and I haven't
found any final u's or syllabic (non-silent) e's from people who do this.

Examples - Here's the grand total of -'s plurals I've seen since I started
noting them (omitting proper nouns, abbreviations and acronyms):

1. In an insect repellent ad (http://www.outdoor-adventures.com/anglers/
   forums/ontbuysell/messages/463.htm):
-'s: mosquito's (x3), patio's
-s:  bugs, insects, lotions, sprays, humans, animals, waves, decks, doors,
     wholesalers, distributors.

2. Web page for a renovations company (http://www.eagle123.com/Patio.htm):
-'s: patio's
-s:  renovations, carports (x2), enclosures (x2), covers, rooms.

3. Local air service webpage
   (http://www.akcache.com/bettleslodge/index.html):
-'s: jacuzzi's
-s:  languages, places, amenities, rooms, pilots, floats, adventures,
     years, maps, rafts, canoes, stoves, bags, trips (x3), rates.

4. Personal email from a 13-year-old family member:
-'s: extra's
-s:  guys (x2), rides

5. Department store poster ad (women's "Sunsations" bathing suits):
-'s: bra's
-s:  contours, ruffles, colors, prints, stripes...[there were more but I
     stopped transcribing].

So, am I losing my mind?
Bryan

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 17 Jun 1998 19:01:36 -0500
From:    Tom Kysilko <pds[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WAVEFRONT.COM>
Subject: Re: Linguistic humor (fwd)

I've passed the list around a bit and heard back as follows.  The people in
question are statisticians.

>Tom --
>
>I forwarded your list to my former boss at the U of M, who responded (in
>less than 1 minute, I swear) with the attached.
>
>Brendan has added that if a jockey lost his job s/he would be
>destabilized.
>
>Kate
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Dear KC,
>
>     Thanx ... I guess salesmen will be discounted?  barbers departed?
>     poll-takers decapitated?  balloonists deflated?  eggs delayed?
>     appointees disappointed? mathematicians disintegrated?
>
>     J.E.C.



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
  Tom Kysilko        Practical Data Services
  pds[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wavefront.com        Saint Paul MN USA
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:56:28 -0400
From:    Alan Baragona <baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU>
Subject: Re: plural's - a new development?

Perhaps writers do this because, subconsciously at least, they are unsure of
whether the plural should add -s or -es (especially so with final -o) so
they instinctively "compromise" with an apostrophe.



At 12:52 AM 6/18/98 -0400, Bryan Gick wrote:
>While I'm at it...
>
>I've been noticing something for the last few months that I can't ignore
>anymore: Lots of people seem to be using the orthographic apostrophe-s
>plural only after (orthographic?) vowels! A text will typically have lots
>and lots of standard -s plurals with one or two -'s ones tossed in. So
>far, all and only those words ending in a, o and i get -'s, and I haven't
>found any final u's or syllabic (non-silent) e's from people who do this.
>
>Examples - Here's the grand total of -'s plurals I've seen since I started
>noting them (omitting proper nouns, abbreviations and acronyms):
>
>1. In an insect repellent ad (http://www.outdoor-adventures.com/anglers/
>   forums/ontbuysell/messages/463.htm):
>-'s: mosquito's (x3), patio's
>-s:  bugs, insects, lotions, sprays, humans, animals, waves, decks, doors,
>     wholesalers, distributors.
>
>2. Web page for a renovations company (http://www.eagle123.com/Patio.htm):
>-'s: patio's
>-s:  renovations, carports (x2), enclosures (x2), covers, rooms.
>
>3. Local air service webpage
>   (http://www.akcache.com/bettleslodge/index.html):
>-'s: jacuzzi's
>-s:  languages, places, amenities, rooms, pilots, floats, adventures,
>     years, maps, rafts, canoes, stoves, bags, trips (x3), rates.
>
>4. Personal email from a 13-year-old family member:
>-'s: extra's
>-s:  guys (x2), rides
>
>5. Department store poster ad (women's "Sunsations" bathing suits):
>-'s: bra's
>-s:  contours, ruffles, colors, prints, stripes...[there were more but I
>     stopped transcribing].
>
>So, am I losing my mind?
>Bryan
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:06:38 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Long story on Melungeons

The Knoxville News-Sentinel has a long story on Melungeons in today's
edtion: http://www.knoxnews.com/061898/up_front/5792.htm

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Jun 1998 09:07:46 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: Estuary English

There's an article in today's New York Times discussing Tony Blair's
newly-affected accent. It's being described as "Estuary English."

http://search.nytimes.com/search/daily/bin/fastweb?getdoc+site+iib-site+1
36+0+wAAA+estuary%7Eenglish

You'll need to register for a free logon and password, if you don't have
one.

Note near the end of the piece the member of the House of Lords and
linguist, Lord Quirk.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Jun 1998 10:41:59 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: plural's - a new development? (LONG repost)

At 12:52 AM -0400 6/18/98, Bryan Gick wrote:
>While I'm at it...
>
>I've been noticing something for the last few months that I can't ignore
>anymore: Lots of people seem to be using the orthographic apostrophe-s
>plural only after (orthographic?) vowels! A text will typically have lots
>and lots of standard -s plurals with one or two -'s ones tossed in. So
>far, all and only those words ending in a, o and i get -'s, and I haven't
>found any final u's or syllabic (non-silent) e's from people who do this.
>
This is consistent with other findings and guesses.  For example, here's an
excerpt from a Linguist List summary a while back on the topic of the
"greengrocer's apostrophe", courtesy of Jonathan Swift [sic--not a bad
moniker for someone investigating such issues].  Notice the occasional
--u's (menus) and the other factors (especially "foreignness") that may be
involved in e.g. jacuzzi's.  While Swift is writing from Britain, a lot of
the same tendencies seem to be involved on both sides of the pond, not to
mention South Africa (see Lynne Murphy's note) and Australia.  Lynne's
hypothesis was akin to Alan's ("Perhaps writers do this because,
subconsciously at least, they are unsure of whether the plural should add
-s or -es (especially so with final -o) so they instinctively "compromise"
with an apostrophe.")  Given that one of the examples below is "tomatoe's",
I'm not sure this strategy really works.

Larry

=========================
Date:         Mon, 18 Nov 1996 12:11:54 -0600
Sender:       The LINGUIST Discussion List <LINGUIST[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAMVM1.TAMU.EDU>
From:         The Linguist List <linguist[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unix.tamu.edu>

......
Date:  Thu, 14 Nov 1996 11:27:30 GMT
From:  jons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ais.co.uk (Jonathan Swift)
Subject:  Sum: Yet more greengrocers' apostrophes...


Anecdotal evidence and theorising on the above from discussion
generated in August 1996.

Thanks first to all who responded - since this is obviously a very popular
subject, apologies now for any I may have missed out and my delay in
collating responses. If i've left you out, drop me a line and I'll make good
the omission. The respondents were: Mike Picone, John E. Koontz, M. Lynne
Murphy, John Konopak, Tamara Al-Kasey, Nancy Frischberg, Mai Kuha, Laura
Walsh Dickey, Paul Foulkes, Uta Lenk, Penny Lee, Eric Bakovic, Melanie
Misanchuk, Laurie Bauer, Sara Wada, Tom Chase.

My original question referred to the use of apostrophe s ("the greengrocer's
apostrophe"):

"This is becoming more and more prevalent in the UK. My local pub lists
_pizza's_ on the lunchtime menu, but further down in the same menu it lists
_specialities of the house_. I don't think the _'s_ has anything to do with
the foreign nature of the word _pizza_ but is based on the fact that UK
English users these days seem to be unsure of _'s_ as a plural sign. Is
there a drift going on towards _'s_ as a plural signifier in English?"

All respondents realise that this feature exists - where there is
disagreement, perhaps, is in the causes of it. I'll let you make your own
minds up.

John Koontz wrote:
"I'd characterize this phenomenon, which occurs in the US, too, as simple
lack of understanding of the English orthography.  As the joke goes,
"Apostrophe is a punctuation mark placed adjacent to an s."  The apostrophe
has no reality in spoken English; it's simply an orthographic concomittant
of -s as a possessive (except in possessive pronouns!) and some contractions
(representations of enclises in fast speech).  The same sort of lack of
familiarity with the orthography results in a general decline in spelling
abilities.  Arbitrary factors get lost.  You could attribute it all to a
lack of education, or lack of a certain kind of education.  The latter comes
closer to the mark, I think.  The problem probably isn't lack of literacy,
it's more widespread practice of literacy.  The same sort of thing afflicts
Omahas trying to use the "traditional" orthography (never really taught to
anyone).  Where to put the raised n-s* that mark nasal vowels?
(* Commonly and, I think, legitimately written n's.)"

I think this is probably the most lucid description of the phenomenon I
received. All respondents had anecdotal evidence that this phenemenon
exists, but like me, few were able to give a good reason for it. Lynne
Murphy broadened the discussion with her reference to the _its/it's_ debate,
as follows:

"in south africa as well (and less in the u.s.) i notice _'s_ being
used as a plural marker, but my intuition is that it is only used on
vowel-final words, especially those ending in 'o', e.g.--_potato's_.
the '...o's' phenomenon i've attributed to people's discomfort with
the rule about adding -es instead of -s to form a plural (_potatoes_).
this rule annoys me personally when people try to apply it to foreign
words, e.g., _tacoes_--so i assumed that people don't know what to
with words ending in 'o'.  _pizza's_ doesn't fall into that pattern,
but it does end with a vowel.  i don't see "plural" _'s_ with
consonants -- e.g., *dachshund's (pl.).
another e.g. that comes from the u.s. and britain (s.a. too, but they
don't use the word much here) is _bi's_ (pl.).  [_bi_ being a term
for 'bisexual'.]  drives me crazy that people use the apostrophe
there, but they seem to be uncomfortable with _bis_ because it looks
like it should be pronounced [bIs] (rhymes with _piss_).  however, in
a discussion on the bisexual theory list a couple of years ago (while
i was researching patterns of use of _bi_), many bi activists claimed
to find _bi's_ annoying/offensive, while others maintained that _bis_
looked too weird.  the non-bi press steadily uses _bi's_.  what they
do for the plural possessive, i have no idea.
(i'm also annoyed by apostrophes in the names of decades, e.g. _the
1930's_, but as you can tell, i'm easily annoyed!  too many years
doing copy editing has left me with some firm opinions on
punctuation.)
i wonder if 's/-s confusion can also be linked to _its/it's_
confusion. i've been really shocked at the prevalence of _it's_ as a
possessive in south africa (i'm an american who's been here 3 years).
not only do the majority of my native english-speaking students use
_it's_ as a possessive, but it regularly seems to make it past copy
editors--i see it in major newspapers, on the side of the kellogg's
rice krispies box, in a glossy magazine advert for basf audiotape
(not to mention the occasional university memo).  granted, _it's/its_
confusion is not a plurality issue (although a student today reported
that _it_ is the 3rd person plural!), but there is a lot of
insecurity about -s morphemes and apostrophes in general.  it's the
kind of things spell-checkers can't solve, so i expect  it  to  get
worse and eventually mutate."

She's right about insecurity in the use of -s morphemes, the evidence bears
it out. Quite why such an uncertainty exists is not clear (but see John
Koontz' response above).

I received a good deal of anecdotal evidence, and was extremely impressed
by, firstly, the observant nature of the respondents, and secondly, by the
marvellous mangling of the "rules" which everyday speakers manage. In an
example from Melanie Misanchuk (which bears striking resemblance to
something I saw in a London pub quite recently):

"Yes, I've noticed a proliferation of apostrophes used to mark the
plural, and I think, contrary to your theory, that the root can
lie in foreign terms, and other non-standard plurals. However, I
will add that I have noticed that the majority of misuses occur
not necessarily in foreign terms, but almost always in words
ending with a vowel, as your example does.  When
people encouter words which end in a vowel which may not follow
the regular pluralization rules, especially if they're
borrowings, they panic.  And perhaps they didn't listen well in
school.  Or they see so much misuse around them.
 I have also seen "taco's" a number of times, and I
must say that I think the problem is worsening.  I once saw, on
a handwritten sign in a washroom, "Plea's flush the toilet".
Now *that's* serious.
Apostrophes are also doing strange things in my area of study,
comtemporary French.  There is some pluralization using 's, but
there is more quasi-correct possessive use of it, and other more
fanciful things.  Most linguists
credit the growth of apostrophe use in French to an English
influence, even where the apostrophe is used in a very French
way, that is to replace missing letters (usually vowels):
(traditional use: aujourd'hui, s'il, qu'on, etc.; new use:
modern' magasin, pas'-temps, and the curious French creation
pin's, meaning a trading pin or badge.)"

_plea's flush the toilet_! I maintain that some thought had to go into that
particular effort. It surely would have been much simpler to write
_please..._ wouldn't it? What rule was the author following when s/he wrote
that? Can it be put down to lack of education, confusion about the uses of
_'s_, or is the reason more profound than that? Perhaps the author was
attempting to produce *correct* English by using what s/he perceived as
*high-brow* literary orthography, and over-correcting in the process of
doing that? I still don't have answers to that central question - the
reason, as usual, probably depends on the individual.
...
Tamara Al-Kasey theorised that the *correct* _specialities_ in my original
example is probably caused by the necessity to change spelling to form the
plural:

"Anecdotally speaking, the apostrophe before the plural is one of my
favorite "bloopers"  Here around Pittsburgh (and before in
Massachusetts) I see it most often on menu's and in grocery store's  (I
have also seen it on fliers around the universities, presumably the work
of students, and printed on mass printed items)  I have even seen the
apostrophe in a verb (once) something like "he say's"
My guess as to why your subject did not put it in "specialties" is
because of the spelling change that called hi's attention to the s being
a part of the word and causing the spelling change."

Nancy Frishberg kindly pointed out the already-existing discussion about
this at the Linguist, which I found useful, while Mai Kuha provided me with
this evidence:

"While in Ohio and Indiana, I have also seen the plurals ladie's and
tomatoe's."

Laura Walsh Dickey offered these observations, and also a theory (point 3 on
her list) about provenance:

"(1)  I have seen the same trend in American English.  It seems to be on
the rise.
(2)  I notice it more with vowel-final words (but I haven't been taking
notes).
(3)  This seems to be related to an older trend to use an apostrophe s
after years and words, letters, or numbers as objects:  "the 1920's", "in
the 80's", "the number of t's in that sentence".
(4)  In Dutch, plurals can have either a -en or -s ending.  If the noun
ends in a vowel, the plural is 's.  This standard spelling is done to mark
the quality of the vowel (vowels in open syllables have different quality
and length from vowels in closed syllables).  The apostrophe tells you
that you should treat the vowel as if it were in an open syllable."

Laura also provided the following Web site URL for reference:

http://spinn.thoughtport.com/spinnwebe/tpa/

Laurie Bauer had some very useful suggestions for further reading:

"This has a long history, and the phenomenon you refer to is sometimes
called the greengrocer's apostrophe (thus in The Oxford Companion to the
English Language, for instance) because of the prevalence of notices like
'plum's' in greengrocers' windows.
The history is interesting, and I'd recommend the Oxford Companion article
on Apostrophe, and the article by Greta D. Little in English Today for
1986. (Vol 8, pp. 15-17).
In Watching English Change (Longman, 1994, p. 133) I suggested that the
apostrophe seemed to me to be used for plurals esp. after vowel letters
other than <e>.  Some of the reason for that can be seen in the history,
too."

Paul Foulkes was also able to shed light on the history:

"I expect you may receive some replies which will point you in the
direction of academic studies on this rather than anecdotal evidence,
but here's my twopennyworth.

I understand that the possessive 's came into being in the first
instance with words of foreign origin, so as to demonstrate that the
word did not end in s. Otherwise, possession was indicated by s but
no apostrophe, as in modern German.

I think that the use of plural apostrophe is connected with lack of
apostrophe in possessives, and if plural ' IS on the increase it may
well be due to confusion over where to use which, as a result of so
many companies like Barclays, Walkers  and so on NOT using the
possessive apostrophe when they "should".

As for the "greengrocer's apostrophe", it is of course often cited as one
of the principal pieces of evidence that standards of English and
schooling in general are severely on the decline these days...etc.
But I have read (frequently, but I can't remember where, sorry) that
this use has always been prominent, and in fact there's no evidence
other than anecdote and popular belief that the phenomenon is
spreading. That said, misuse of ' is one of the few things that really
irritates me (I'm a professional linguist and therefore supposed to
avoid prescriptivism at all costs), and I have collected a few real
gems. Try the following, all of which I am sure would not be found
until recently (and which therefore DO suggest the confusion is
growing worse):

MEAN'T - in one of the info snippets flashed up during the ITV chart
show

VARIOU'S FILLINGS - for sandwiches and spuds in a Whitley Bay cafe

DELICIOU'S - fruit in Newcastle market

What's worse, no matter how impeccable my usage of ' or not used to
be, I keep finding error's in my own writing's. Its horrendou's."

Penny Lee would rather the whole problem was avoided entirely:

"It's very common for people seem to be unsure in Australia.  (Is
there a drift going on towards the adoption of this as a plural
signifier?)  goodness knows. I find that when I'm writing or typing at
speed though I often throw the apostrophe in automatically when it
shouldn't be there and have to take it out later even though I know
when it's supposed to be there and when it isn't. It certainly is a
bother trying to remember. I'd rather they were both dropped."

Which solution would be practical, but would make life a little less
interesting for those of us who enjoy this sort of thing!

Eric Bakovic responded to the original question thus:

"Most definitely, and in the US, too.  I've seen hot dog vendors with
signs advertising "Hot Dog's", for instance, and I've seen many other
instances (on students' homeworks, for instance).  My personal
suspicion has always been that this confusion somehow derives from the
large number of restaurants and shops with possessive names such as
"Denny's".  That's not the best example, since it's not easily
confused with a plural, but there are others I can't think of at the
moment that could be.  Another possible explanation is that you often
see tacky signs on people's houses that say, e.g., "The Smith's" or
"The Smiths", meaning either "The Smith's Home" or "The Smiths live
here", presumably.  The people who own these signs may know what
they're doing when they choose to use the apostrophe or not, but it
might have led to confusion by others.

...
Sarah Wada provided this example, but is baffled as to reasons why:

"I saw an interesting sign for a health club the other day (in Tahoe,
California, USA): _Enjoy our weights, bikes, treadmills, and
jacuzzi's_ I don't know what it all means.  I have observed a lot of
apostrophe s plurals lately, but I have no explanation."

This usage presumably falls into the "can't follow a final vowel with
_s_ to denote plural" category noted by Lynne Murphy above. "It just
doesn't look right" was how a friend explained it to me when faced
with it, and she's right, it does look odd. It still doesn't explain
_formulas_, though. How long does a word have to be current in a
language before it is assimilated?

Finally, Tom Chase sounds the death knell for _'s_:

"The apostrophe was introduced into English orthography rather late,
and seems to be dying out. The number of writers who can use it
confidently and correctly is declining; through the media of
advertising, signage, and so on we are constantly exposed to
"incorrect" uses (e.g., "Simpsons" rather than "Simpson's" in a
department store chain founded by Robert Simpson).  Since its
usefulness in making distinctions is limited (in other words, we
almost always know what is meant even if the apostrophe is incorrectly
present or absent) and applies only in written rather than spoken
language, I wouldn't (!) be surprised if it were to disappear within
two or three generations."

On that sombre note, I'll sum up:

English is not alone in admitting of variants in the usage of
_'s_. French and German also suffer. There is a likelihood that
factors such as education, over-correction due to concern about
*correct* usage, history, *foreign-ness* of words and the fact that
certain words _don't look right_ without the _'s_ all play a
part. Personally, this process of change pretty much sums up for me
why I love languages so much - wouldn't the world be a much duller
place without the humble _'s_?


Jonathan Swift Sales Executive Abbey Information Systems 1 Paper Mews
330 High Street Dorking RH4 2TU

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:09:18 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: "email"

A friend recently emailed me more or less as follows (text unavailable for cut-and-paste):

Last night, quite late, I was reading the French version of _Scientific American_ [she was sending from Paris], and I
couldn't figure out why they were saying that ancient sharks sent different kinds of email with their teeth. This morning it
hit me: e'mail [acute accent on the e] is French for 'enamel'!

-- Mark
       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Jun 1998 11:39:16 -0400
From:    Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>
Subject: "concerning," adj.

About two years ago, someone wrote in a question to my
Word of the Day page at Random House asking about the
sentence "That nodule was very concerning to me,"
reportedly dictated by a doctor to a typist. OED has
_concerning_ ppl.a. in the sense 'that is of concern;
weighty' from 1649 but marked archaic, and in the sense
'causing anxiety or distress; worrisome' (the sense
used here) with a single example from Richardson in
1741.

I responded that the use seemed quite unidiomatic, and
forgot all about it.

In the last few months I've recorded several more
examples of this:

1997 [exchange between author and book publicist, 23
Dec.:] "I haven't been able to find a copy in a bookstore."
"That's very concerning."

1998 N.Y. Times (June 13) A6: It's concerning because not
only did he determine that the interviews in the case
were improper, he determined that the children could not
testify.

1998 N.Y. doctor, age ca35-40 (17 June): It's only if you
had an uneven pulse, or really strong palpitations, that
it would be more concerning.

By now I'm not even sure that it sounds unusual, but
I'll chalk that up to heightened sensitivity to the
usage. Has anyone else noticed this use, or an increase
in its frequency? Jim, does Merriam have anything useful
on this?

Thanks for any input.


Jesse Sheidlower
Random House
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:07:54 +0000
From:    Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: plural's - a new development?

I wonder if they're trying to mark the voicedness of the plural
morpheme in these environments. In any other context (that I can think
of within about two minutes), the sequences -is, -os and -as would
spell [Is], [)s] and [as] or [[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s], respectively, rather than [iz], [oZ]
and [az] or [[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]z], as they must be pronounced to indicate pluralization.
In contrast, sequences spelled -es or -Cs would be pronounced the same
whether or not the -s was a plural marker.

Peter

On Thu, 18 Jun 1998 08:56:28 -0400 Alan Baragona
<baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU> wrote:

> Perhaps writers do this because, subconsciously at least, they are unsure of
> whether the plural should add -s or -es (especially so with final -o) so
> they instinctively "compromise" with an apostrophe.
>
>
>
> At 12:52 AM 6/18/98 -0400, Bryan Gick wrote:
> >While I'm at it...
> >
> >I've been noticing something for the last few months that I can't
> ignore >anymore: Lots of people seem to be using the orthographic
> apostrophe-s >plural only after (orthographic?) vowels! A text will
> typically have lots >and lots of standard -s plurals with one or two
> -'s ones tossed in. So >far, all and only those words ending in a, o
> and i get -'s, and I haven't >found any final u's or syllabic
> (non-silent) e's from people who do this. >
> >Examples - Here's the grand total of -'s plurals I've seen since I
> started >noting them (omitting proper nouns, abbreviations and
> acronyms): >
> >1. In an insect repellent ad
> (http://www.outdoor-adventures.com/anglers/ >
> forums/ontbuysell/messages/463.htm): >-'s: mosquito's (x3), patio's
> >-s:  bugs, insects, lotions, sprays, humans, animals, waves, decks,
> doors, >     wholesalers, distributors.
> > >2. Web page for a renovations company
> (http://www.eagle123.com/Patio.htm): >-'s: patio's
> >-s:  renovations, carports (x2), enclosures (x2), covers, rooms. >
> >3. Local air service webpage >
> (http://www.akcache.com/bettleslodge/index.html): >-'s: jacuzzi's
> >-s:  languages, places, amenities, rooms, pilots, floats, adventures,
> > years, maps, rafts, canoes, stoves, bags, trips (x3), rates. >
> >4. Personal email from a 13-year-old family member: >-'s: extra's
> >-s:  guys (x2), rides >
> >5. Department store poster ad (women's "Sunsations" bathing
> suits): >-'s: bra's
> >-s:  contours, ruffles, colors, prints, stripes...[there were more but
> I >     stopped transcribing].
> > >So, am I losing my mind?
> >Bryan >

----------------------
Peter A. McGraw
Linfield College
McMinnville, Oregon
pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linfield.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:35:35 EDT
From:    Ron Butters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Plus Size Singles

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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This ad recently came into my mailbox. I'm wondering if the euphemism "Plus
Size" counts as a new word?

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Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 12:09:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: <mark33[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mynetaddress.com>
Message-Id: <989.283923.60183 mark33[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mynetaddress.com>
Subject: Summer Romance for Plus Size Singles & their Admirers
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<HTML><PRE><FONT COLOR="#000000" BACK="#ffffff" SIZE=3>
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               WHO BELIEVE THAT SIZE IS ONLY A NUMBER!!

                              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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--part0_898187735_boundary--

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:05:59 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: RE>Plus Size Singles

I have a, uhh, rather large younger sister, and I'm pretty sure my
brother and I made fun of her when I was a kid (let's say more than 15
years ago) for the "plus" size clothing. One of the retailers had a
size called "pretty plus" and we changed it to a "fatty plus" which
sounded much better when we taunted her.

I'm so ashamed.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:54:25 -0400
From:    Wendalyn Nichols <wnichols[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RANDOMHOUSE.COM>
Subject: Re: RE>Plus Size Singles

Anyone with large female relatives would be familiar with "plus size" - it
was being used during my brief stint as a department store clerk in 1979.
Normal sizing for juniors is odd numbered (5-7-9-11-13 etc.) and for women
is even numbered (6--8-10 etc.).  Women's sizes go on up into the thirties
and forties, but junior sizes don't; they normally go to 15 as a maximum.
Plus sizes are a way of making teenagers feel they're not wearing an 18 or
20 by labeling clothes differently beyond the 15 cutoff.  Different
manufacturers did it differently, but the most common way was to use 1+,
2+,3+ etc. which would really have corresponded to 17,19,21 etc.




Grant Barrett <gbarrett [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] DFJP.COM> on 06/18/98 02:05:59 PM

Please respond to American Dialect Society <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

To:   ADS-L [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
cc:    (bcc: Wendalyn Nichols/Trade/RandomHouse)
Subject:  RE>Plus Size Singles




I have a, uhh, rather large younger sister, and I'm pretty sure my
brother and I made fun of her when I was a kid (let's say more than 15
years ago) for the "plus" size clothing. One of the retailers had a
size called "pretty plus" and we changed it to a "fatty plus" which
sounded much better when we taunted her.

I'm so ashamed.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Jun 1998 14:31:10 -0400
From:    Beverly Flanigan <flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Estuary English

I haven't read the article yet, but I recall hearing that John Major was
also criticized/laughed at/mocked for affecting RP.  Since only 3-4% of all
Britons are native speakers of RP, I suppose Londoners of some
sociopolitical weight have had to come up with a reasonable substitute to
cover their own dialectal variation, hence Estuary English--ugh, what a
label.  I assume Lord Quirk is as in Quirk, Greenbaum, et al.?


At 09:07 AM 6/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>There's an article in today's New York Times discussing Tony Blair's
>newly-affected accent. It's being described as "Estuary English."
>
>http://search.nytimes.com/search/daily/bin/fastweb?getdoc+site+iib-site+1
>36+0+wAAA+estuary%7Eenglish
>
>You'll need to register for a free logon and password, if you don't have
>one.
>
>Note near the end of the piece the member of the House of Lords and
>linguist, Lord Quirk.
>
>Grant Barrett
>gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:30:32 +0000
From:    Jim Rader <jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: Re: "concerning," adj.

Our paper cite file has two contemporary examples of this usage,
which are interesting enough to be worth quoting:

"You look around," said [Chuck] Daly [basketball coach], "and we have
a form of MTV basketball.  We have rookies coming into the league who
are set for life before they ever play a single [NBA] game. ...We're
really setting up people to leave the sport very early, which I would
think would be very concerning."  (column by Joe Menzer in
_Basketball Digest_, v. 21, no. 8 [June/July 1994], p. 16)

Dr. Harold Jaffe, deputy director for science of the AIDS program at
the Federal Center for Disease Control in Atlanta, said he would
like to see the findings confirmed in a larger group exposed to the
AIDS virus.  But, he said, "If it's correct, it's very concerning."
(byline of Gina Kolata, _New York Times_, June 1, 1989, p. A21)

I haven't tried searching this on our citation database, which would
record usages that hadn't been specifically marked; I suspect the
usage is salient enough that editors would have marked it.  Nor have
I tried searching it on Nexis.  I assume that adverbs such as "very"
are categorized by  Lexis-Nexis as "noise words," so that it would be
difficult to separate adjectival uses of _concerning_ from the
unsearchably large number of prepositional uses.

The editor who reviewed the 1989 cite during the editing of C10
questioned the label "archaic" given _concerning_ in the sense "causing
concern" in W3--with good reason, to judge from what Jesse has
observed.  I don't recall ever hearing or seeing it before.

Jim Rader

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:03:26 -0400
From:    Wendalyn Nichols <wnichols[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RANDOMHOUSE.COM>
Subject: Re: Estuary English

"Estuary English" is broader than merely London, which after all has its
own distinct geographical variations even within its borders.  It refers to
the Thames Estuary, and according to who's writing the article about it,
can include the flat, less regionally marked pronunciation that is being
adopted by a large number of Labour government ministers, a watered-down
Cockney accent, or most of Essex (drawing the line at those who say
"haitch" for the sound they drop at the beginnings of words).  Blair's
accent is that of a thoroughgoingly middle-class grammar-school boy, and
not strongly Estuary at all.  Major (who hails from Brixton) sounded more
Estuary, and nasally so, before he tried cosmetic surgery on his accent -
vowels more plummy, but that nasal quality couldn't be resculpted.
Thatcher was much more successful at accent and tone reconstruction,
dropping her voice by about an octave.

Lord Quirk is indeed Professor Sir Randolf Quirk, author of, erm, a
gazillion grammar books.




Beverly Flanigan <flanigan [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU> on 06/18/98 02:31:10 PM

Please respond to American Dialect Society <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>

To:   ADS-L [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
cc:    (bcc: Wendalyn Nichols/Trade/RandomHouse)
Subject:  Re: Estuary English




I haven't read the article yet, but I recall hearing that John Major was
also criticized/laughed at/mocked for affecting RP.  Since only 3-4% of all
Britons are native speakers of RP, I suppose Londoners of some
sociopolitical weight have had to come up with a reasonable substitute to
cover their own dialectal variation, hence Estuary English--ugh, what a
label.  I assume Lord Quirk is as in Quirk, Greenbaum, et al.?


At 09:07 AM 6/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
>There's an article in today's New York Times discussing Tony Blair's
>newly-affected accent. It's being described as "Estuary English."
>
>http://search.nytimes.com/search/daily/bin/fastweb?getdoc+site+iib-site+1
>36+0+wAAA+estuary%7Eenglish
>
>You'll need to register for a free logon and password, if you don't have
>one.
>
>Note near the end of the piece the member of the House of Lords and
>linguist, Lord Quirk.
>
>Grant Barrett
>gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Jun 1998 13:30:01 -0700
From:    "A. Maberry" <maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU>
Subject: Re: Long story on Melungeons

Very interesting article. The Turkish "me'l^un c^ani" means literally
"accursed soul" (sg.). The Arabic cited is somewhat unclear "ma'lun jinn"
or "ma'lun jann" seems to be an attempt to say "accursed (sg.) demons, (or
evil spirits or genies)(pl.)". I think it is somewhat ungrammatical in
that a) it is a case of a singular adjective modifying a plural noun and
b) adjectives follow the nouns they modify. Therefore one would
expect "jinn ma'lunah" the adjective being feminine because plurals are
treated as feminine (an only and rare exception in which the adj. is not
fem. is a constructio ad sensum e.g "rijal mu'minun" men(pl.) believing(m.
pl.) = "believing men". Also since the Turkish connection would have dated
to Ottoman times, not modern, one would have to look not at the modern one
but the Ottoman one, which could have easily been the Persian-like
construction "c^an-i me'l^un". There may be a lot of reasons for tracing
the Melungeons to some place in the Near East, but IMHO the linguistic
evidence is kind of weak and raises a lot of questions.

Does anyone have any references to works tracing the parallels between
American Indian and Turkish words mentioned in the article?

Allen

maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu

On Thu, 18 Jun 1998, Bethany K. Dumas wrote:

> The Knoxville News-Sentinel has a long story on Melungeons in today's
> edtion: http://www.knoxnews.com/061898/up_front/5792.htm
>
> Bethany
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Jun 1998 15:26:58 -0400
From:    Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>
Subject: "skell" update

A month or so ago we discussed the word _skell_ 'a
despicable person, esp. a derelict or street criminal'.
At the time I thought that the earliest example we had
in the HDAS files was from the early 1970s.

I've now looked through that section, and while we
still don't have anything as early as the remarkable
1957 cite that Jim Rader proffered, we do have these
two early examples from a prominent writer:

1960 H. Selby, Jr., in _Provincetown Review_ III 81:
She didn't need any goddamn skell to buy her a drink.

1957-64 H. Selby, Jr. _Last Exit to Brooklyn_ 88: Of
course some a [sic] the skells from the bar worked
their way up...and grabbed what they could.

The nuance here seems to be more 'despicable person',
not quite the same as most of the later cites.

After this we have a jump to the 1970s, but we have
a large number of cites, mostly from police sources,
in the early-mid 1970s.

Jesse Sheidlower
Random House
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Jun 1998 16:30:31 -0400
From:    Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: "concerning," adj.

The earliest modern example I can find for the adjectival _concerning_ is
in Dallas Morning News, May 26, 1986:

"Our data shows that 2 percent of our players are responsible for 20
percent of the fights," he said.  "I find this very concerning."


(I also have a 1983 wire service story usage, but the above is the
earliest printed cite I can find.)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
 Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
 Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Jun 1998 18:30:16 EDT
From:    Ron Butters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: "concerning," adj.

My intuitions are exactly the same as Jesse's--except that I hadn't noticed
the construction. The example that the person sent him sounds weird to
me--but, oddly enough, the other examples don't. "This is very concerning to
me" NOW sounds like something I might say myself. Maybe this is just a usage
that is really easy to pick up on. What an oddity!!!!

Or could it be that the use of the progressive with CONCERN sounds weird in
the past but not the present or conditional? Consider:

     I am walking to the store right now [speaking into a cell phone]
     I would be walking to the store (if I hadn't broken my leg)
     *I was walking to the store yesterday.



In a message dated 6/18/98 3:07:41 PM, you wrote:

<<About two years ago, someone wrote in a question to my
Word of the Day page at Random House asking about the
sentence "That nodule was very concerning to me,"
reportedly dictated by a doctor to a typist. OED has
_concerning_ ppl.a. in the sense 'that is of concern;
weighty' from 1649 but marked archaic, and in the sense
'causing anxiety or distress; worrisome' (the sense
used here) with a single example from Richardson in
1741.

I responded that the use seemed quite unidiomatic, and
forgot all about it.

In the last few months I've recorded several more
examples of this:

1997 [exchange between author and book publicist, 23
Dec.:] "I haven't been able to find a copy in a bookstore."
"That's very concerning."

1998 N.Y. Times (June 13) A6: It's concerning because not
only did he determine that the interviews in the case
were improper, he determined that the children could not
testify.

1998 N.Y. doctor, age ca35-40 (17 June): It's only if you
had an uneven pulse, or really strong palpitations, that
it would be more concerning.

By now I'm not even sure that it sounds unusual, but
I'll chalk that up to heightened sensitivity to the
usage. Has anyone else noticed this use, or an increase
in its frequency? Jim, does Merriam have anything useful
on this?

Thanks for any input.


Jesse Sheidlower
Random House
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>>>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 18 Jun 1998 17:12:39 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: R.I.P., Tom Creswell

I was just informed that Tom Creswell died last night.

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:36:15 -0700
From:    Yongwei Gao <951208[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FUDAN.EDU.CN>
Subject: meat-eater & qualifer

Dear all,

My questions today are:
1. Has anybody ever seen the use of "meat-eater" before/ Example:
But the stories from the 30th Precinct--and those told last year to an
investigative commission--are about a new breed of  meat-eaters --police
officers who have become indistinguishable from the criminals they were
supposed to be catching. (5/19/94 WP A1)
2. Qualifier, so far as I know from all the dictionaries available,
means a person who qualifies. But I have collected several citations in
which it means a match (of course, a qualifying one). Has any new-word
dictionary recorded it?           And I also find its abbreviated form
--"qualie". Example: And this is the world s seventy-ninth-best player,
one who has to play the Montreal qualies. (Esquire 7/96 p65)

Thanks for your help!

Yongwei Gao
Fudan University,
Shanghai, China

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Jun 1998 10:53:42 +0900
From:    Gao Yongwei <951208[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FUDAN.EDU.CN>
Subject: Meat-eater & qualifier

Dear all,

My questions today are:
1. Has anybody ever seen the use of "meat-eater" before? Example: But the storie
s from the 30th Precinct--and those told last year to an investigative commissio
n--are about a new breed of "eat-eaters"--police
officers who have become indistinguishable from the criminals they were supposed
 to be catching. (5/19/94 WP A1)
2. Qualifier, so far as I know from all the dictionaries available, means a pers
on who qualifies. But I have collected several citations in which it means a mat
ch (of course, a qualifying one). Has any new-word dictionary recorded it?
And I have also found its abbreviated form "qualie". Example: And this is the world's seventy-ninth-best player, one who has to play the Montreal qualies. (Esquire 7/96 p65)

Thanks for your help!

Yongwei Gao
Fudan University,
Shanghai, China

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Jun 1998 to 18 Jun 1998
************************************************
There are 11 messages totalling 626 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Long story on Melungeons
  2. Rock and Roll (1940s and 1950s)
  3. Hello; Skel
  4. meat-eater & qualifer
  5. plural's - a new development? (2)
  6. seeking a verb for what a consultant does
  7. Long Story on Melungeons--Reply
  8. AAVE at the university
  9. plural's - a new development? (short reply to LONG repost) (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Jun 1998 01:29:12 -0500
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Long story on Melungeons

Somehow, the attempt to derive the word "Melungeon" from Turkish or
Arabic sounds tremendously mythological.  There just isn't that much
evidence of Turkish OR Arabic speakers in the right neighborhood at the
right time.

Another myth attributes the word to French "melange", taken to be a
clear reference to some kind of mixture.  Given the history of people
called Melungeons I can see why a label directly referring to mixture
would not be very comfortable.

Melungeons seem to me to fit the same niche as several other groups:
"Redbones", "Lumbee Indians", "Red Ankles", and others.  In each case,
the historical evidence strongly suggests that the group in question are
descended from a combination of Europeans, Native Americans, and
African-derived populations.  In a time of legal segregation, members of
these groups fought hard to establish a social identity that was NOT, in
the language of the day, Negro.  They had to swim upstream against the
rule of hypodescent: that "one drop of blood" rule.  Each group tended
to have "swarthy" skins and dark-colored hair, which would not be
surprising if some of their ancestors were free persons of color or
escaped slaves.  The self-declared "whites" who surrounded them always
suspected black ancestry, and denied full acceptance as their kind of
"white".  But several groups -- the Lumbee have been the most successful
-- were able to impose acceptance of a view that even if they weren't
"white", they certainly should not be lumped with "blacks".

As it happens, last year I was drawn into saying much more about
Melungeons because of an inquiry on another list.  I'll copy the heart
of what I said then as a postscript to this email.

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

===========  My old message on Melungeons, edited  =============

       Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 04:33:19 -0600
       From: Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]corn.cso.niu.edu>

[Alla asked] if anybody out here ever heard of "Melungeons".  Sure I
have -- as I've heard of Redbones and Red Ankles (who may or may not be
the same as people called "Brass Ankles"; I don't remember the details
just now) and the Lumbee Indians and a lot of other groups.  As I
recall, the first time I read about all of them in one place was in a
book called "Almost white".  The author was Brewton Berry, the publisher
was
Macmillan, and I think the date was 1963.  Check it out:  it may be the
clearest and least biased general source.  At least that's what I
remember -- but I think the last time I actually read the book was in
1968 or 1969.  While you're checking things out, take a look at a Web
page about Melungeons:   http://www.boondock.com/juliawhite/unred.html

Let me see.  The Melungeons, as I recall, lived/live in eastern
Tennessee, West Va., and Va.; the Red Ankles in South Carolina; the
Lumbees in North Carolina (centered on the town of Pembroke).  I forget
where the Redbones are: could it have been Mississippi?

What these groups share is that they came into being on the fringes of
advancing European settlement in areas that were to become the U.S. Most
of them have created oral histories that claim continuity with some
"Indian tribe" or another.  (I don't like the word "tribe" because it
has no general definition.  It's one of those words that conceal much
more than they reveal.) Melungeons have recently taken to claiming
Mediterranean descent, possibly from Turks or Arabs.  I don't set much
store by these more or less "official" histories because they seem to me
to grab for connections to European historical sources on awfully slim
evidence, if there is any at all.  (Lumbees and Melungeons and Red
Ankles all have claimed, at one time or another, to be descendants of
the "tribe" that rescued -- and intermarried with -- the survivors of
Sir Walter Raleigh's lost colony at Croatan, for example.  There still
is no credible evidence that anyone out of that colony survived at all.
The record strongly suggests that relations between the colonists and
surrounding Native American groups were extremely hostile.  It seems to
me that the most likely fate of the colony was that their neighbors,
exasperated at the colonists' frequent use of deadly force against them
-- and that is well attested in the historical record -- finally decided
that the only thing to do with them was kill them all.)

The mixed populations on the fringe of settlement became more or less
cohesive groups that stuck together through time (centuries of time,
now), with a strong tendency to marrying within their own groups.  Along
the way they forged collective identities that took up various
assortments of ideas, customs, and cultural traits that came from three
groups: Native Americans, European settlers, and Africans (including
both "free men of color" and "runaway slaves").  All of these groups
that I know about included people of the same origins as the cultural
elements that became parts of the mixed, combined cultures of their
descendants.    The real histories of their origins aren't that
different from those of the "Civilized Nations" of Georgia -- Cherokees,
Choctaws, etc. Neither are they all that different from Florida's
Seminoles.  In terms that would be most meaningful to contemporary
bigots, all of these are "tri-racial" groups, but I don't think that
"racial" classifications tell us anything about cultures in the first
place.

Most of the groups I think of as most like the Melungeons have spent a
lot of time and effort, over the years, in establishing social positions
that occupy unique niches in their local areas.  They strongly wanted to
avoid classification as "Negroes" or "blacks" or "colored people"
because of the obvious disadvantages of being assigned to that status.
But many families in each of these groups had at least some children who
just didn't look "white" -- or "Indian", either.  Historically, the
struggle for most of these groups was to gain recognition as some kind
of "Indians".  At least some of them have had some limited success.

I don't recall what the current legal status of the Melungeons might
be.  I do know that the Lumbees have finally been recognized under North
Carolina law -- and by act of the U.S. Congress -- as an "Indian tribe".
Their status as Indians, however, is an oddball one.  The same U.S. law
that recognized their "Indian" identity also explicitly ruled that the
Lumbees could not have access to the services, if that's the word for
them, of the U.S. Bureau of Indian Affairs.  The law explicitly states
that the Lumbees have no treaty rights with the U.S.

And why do I know this sort of stuff?  Because I consider intergroup
relations to be one of my specialties.  (I used to say that I did
"minority studies", until I concluded that the groups we call minorities
aren't defined by numbers.  "Minority" is a political status, not an
arithmetical measure.)

A few years ago, I discovered that one of my old students from the 1960s
now has an interesting job with the U.S. Bureau of the Census: he's an
anthropologist charged with investigating, and testifying as an expert
witness, in cases where groups are trying to get recognition as "Indian
tribes" under U.S. law.  He says that he started down that road because
of some problems I had raised, in my teaching, about how you figure out
what the boundaries of social groups or societies or cultures might be.

That's all very well, but I wouldn't have his job for the world.  These
just aren't questions that have a single, unequivocal, scientifically
sound answer.  Whatever he comes up with in any particular case is going
to make some people very angry, while those on the other side of the
same question won't be entirely happy, either. . .   and the final
outcome, whatever it is, is bound to have a lot of arbitrariness that
ignores perfectly true facts.

==================  End of edited version of old message ============

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Jun 1998 07:45:05 EDT
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Rock and Roll (1940s and 1950s)

     This continues the previous postings.
     A very useful album is ROCK BEFORE ELVIS, BEFORE LITTLE RICHARD, BEFORE
CHUCK BERRY, BO DIDDLEY, OR BILL HALEY (Hoy Hoy, 1993).   I haven't listened
to it, but the Worldcat entry gives the song titles with dates:

THE BOOGIE ROCKS by Albert Ammons (Feb. 12, 1944)
ROCKIN' THE HOUSE by Memphis Slim and his House Rockers (1947)
ROCK THE JOINT BOOGIE (AROUND THE CLOCK BLUES, pt. 1) by Big Joe Turner (Nov.
1947).
WE'RE GONNA ROCK, WE'RE GONNA ROLL by Wild Bill Moore (Dec. 18, 1947)
GOOD ROCKING TONIGHT by The Wynonie Harris All Stars (Dec. 28, 1947)
I WANT TO ROCK AND ROLL by Scatman Crothers (late 1940s)
ROCK AWHILE by Goree Carter and his Hepcats (April 1949)
ROCK THE JOINT by Jimmy Preston and his Prestonians (May 1949)
ROCKOLA by Joe Lutcher and his Society Cats (Aug. 1949)
WE'RE GONNA ROCK THIS MORNING by Doles Pickens (1949)
SAVAGE ROCK by Doc Savage (Jan. 2, 1950)
ROCK MISTER BLUES by Wynonie Harris All Stars (May 18, 1950)
ROCK LITTLE BABY by Cecil Grant (Jan. 19, 1951)
ROCKING CHAIR BLUES by Paul Wiliams and his Hucklebuckers (July 25, 1951)
ROCKIN' AND JUMPIN by Freddie Mitchell Orchestra with Honey Brown (April 1951)
ROCK-A-BYE-BABY by Roy Brown (Sept, 27, 1951)
ROCK AND ROLL by Jimmy Rushing, Pete Johnson and members of the Count Basie
Orchestra (Aug. 16, 1955)

     Also very helpful is SHAKE RATTLE & ROLL:  THE GOLDEN AGE OF AMERICAN
ROCK 'N ROLL, VOLUME 1: 1952-1955 (1989) by Lee Cotten.  On page 202, it
states that "Moondog," a blind street musician in New York City, won a
judgment against Alan Freed for the use of the "Moondog" name for Freed's
dance parties.  On November 24, 1954, Freed's new WINS radio show was renamed
"Rock and Roll Party."
      1950s songs include (I forgot to check what the first letter code on the
date indicates):

ROCK H-BOMB, ROCK by H-Bomb Ferguson (Fo/1/52)
ROCK THE JOINT by Bill Haley and the Saddlemen (F/4/52)
ROCK 'N ROLL BLUES by Anita O'Day (S/4/52)
ROLL MR. JELLY by Amos Milburn (F/6/52)
ROCK THIS MORNING by Jesse Allen (Fo/6/52)
ROCK, ROCK, ROCK by Willis Jackson (F/7/52)
ROCKING CHAIR ON THE MOON by Bill Haley and the Saddlemen (S/8/52)
ROCKIN' ON A SUNDAY NIGHT by Treniers (Fo/9/52)
ROCK ME ALL NIGHT LONG by Ravens (F/10/52)
ROLL WITH MY BABY by Ray Charles (F/10/52)
ROCKIN' AND ROLLIN' #2 by Lil Son Jackson (F/11/52)
ROLLIN' LIKE A PEBBLE IN THE SAND by Charles Brown (F/11/52)
REAL ROCK DRIVE by Bill Haley and Haley's Comets (S/11/52)
ROCK, ROCK, ROCK by Amos Milburn (F/12/52)
ROCKIN' CHAIR BOOGIE by Ivory Joe Hunter (F/12/52)
ROCK BOTTOM by Milt Trenier (Fo/4/53)
ROCK IS OUR BIZNESS by Treniers (T/5/53)
ROLL 'EM by Mitzi Mars (T/5/53)
ROLL AND RHUMBA by Jimmy Reed (T/8/53)
ROCK ME BABY by Johnny Otis (S/10/53)
ROCKER by Little Walter (Fi/3/54)
ROCK A-BEATIN' BOOGIE by Treniers (Fo/5/54)
ROCK AROUND THE CLOCK by Bill Haley and his Comets (S/5/54)
ROCK, MOAN AND CRY by Playboys (T/8/54)
ROCK LOVE by Sonny Thompson with Lulu Reed (T/1/55)
ROCKIN' CHAIR by Five Cats (S/2/55)
ROCK BOTTOM by Rams (Fo/3/55)
ROCK-A-LOCKA by Five Wings (F/4/55)
ROCK AROUND THE CLOCK by M-G-M Studio Orchestra (F/7/55)
ROCK IT, DAVY, ROCK IT by Jaguars (F/7/55)
ROLLIN' STONE by Marigols (Fo/4/55)
ROCKIN' WITH RED by Piano Red (S/7/55)
ROCK A-BEATIN' BOOGIE by Bill Haley and his Comets (T/10/55)
ROCK AND ROLL WEDDING by Midnighters (T/11/55)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Jun 1998 07:47:25 EDT
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Hello; Skel

HELLO

     This is from the KNICKERBOCKER magazine, September 1846, pg. 262:

     "Who's this?--the devil!--hell-o!--what does this mean!" shouted the
officer...

     Ah!  So perhaps the devil makes us do it, after all.  The August 1846
issue, pg. 185, has the more familiar "Hallo! stranger!"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
SKEL

     I recall seeing "skel" in one of the Harlem song lyrics of the 1930s, but
I don't remember if I made a note of it or copied it down, and I can't find it
just now.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:27:42 -0400
From:    Paul McFedries <lists[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MCFEDRIES.COM>
Subject: Re: meat-eater & qualifer

I've seen "meat eater" used as a synonym for "aggressive." I first saw it in
an InfoWorld story (2/10/92) on a shake-up of Microsoft executives. The
following quote refers to Steve Ballmer who, from what I've heard, is
aggression personified:

     But some industry watchers say the new executive arrangement
     is, in fact, a horse race, where one person will eventually
     be singled out as president. "Ballmer is a meat eater, and
     this is the next stop to Ballmer's becoming president," said
     a source.

This also reminds me of a neologism I once used in the early days of The
Word Spy:

agressocracy, noun
A society in which the most aggressive members rise to the top.

Paul McFedries
======================================
Home: http://www.mcfedries.com/
Books: http://www.mcfedries.com/books/
Word Spy: http://www.mcfedries.com/WordSpy/
======================================

> -----Original Message-----
> From: American Dialect Society [mailto:ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU]On Behalf Of
> Yongwei Gao
> Sent: Friday, June 19, 1998 1:36 PM
>
> 1. Has anybody ever seen the use of "meat-eater" before/ Example:
> But the stories from the 30th Precinct--and those told last year to an
> investigative commission--are about a new breed of  meat-eaters --police
> officers who have become indistinguishable from the criminals they were
> supposed to be catching. (5/19/94 WP A1)

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Jun 1998 08:42:46 PDT
From:    Phil Thomas <preakness1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOTMAIL.COM>
Subject: Re: plural's - a new development?

>I've been noticing something for the last few months that I can't
>ignore anymore: Lots of people seem to be using the orthographic
>apostrophe-s plural only after (orthographic?) vowels! A text will
>typically have lots and lots of standard -s plurals with one or two
>-'s ones tossed in. So far, all and only those words ending in a, o
>and i get -'s, and I haven't found any final u's or syllabic
>non-silent) e's from people who do this.

This is not a 'development' as you refer to it in your header line; it's
just an example of people who don't understand the rules of the language
they're speaking.  Would it be a development if I were to say "there,
their and they're" or "your and you're" or exchangable with one another?
I see PLENTY of people on the Internet using these words in whatever way
they see fit.

As for why they use the apostrophe sometimes, but not always, I can't
offer any explanation.

-Phil



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:41:18 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: seeking a verb for what a consultant does

In my work, I frequently serve as a short-term consultant to people in
various parts of the company: answering short questions, attending a
meeting to give input on a single issue, etc. In my biweekly reports I have
been describing this kind of activity in terms like

         I consulted for Hugh on the XYZ issue

which I find unsatisfactory. The problem is that while I dislike the passive
voice, and I certainly don't want to fill my reports with it, "consult" takes
the consultant (the person who provides expertise) as direct object, and
I can't think of any construction or expression, EXCEPT the passive, that
fits into the pattern:

        I attended meeting X
        I collected data of type Y
        I ran experiment Z

Suggestions, anyone? They don't have to use the root "consult". I've tried
"advise", but it doesn't always fit semantically.

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 796-0267
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Jun 1998 12:38:22 -0400
From:    Anita Puckett <apuckett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VT.EDU>
Subject: Long Story on Melungeons--Reply

>Somehow, the attempt to derive the word "Melungeon" from Turkish or
>Arabic sounds tremendously mythological.  There just isn't that much
>evidence of Turkish OR Arabic speakers in the right neighborhood at the
>right time.

First of all, the Knoxville newspaper article did take Kennedy's book at
too factual a basis.  Kennedy himself mentions that he's speculating in
this book on many of these issues.  And he currently adds that much has
changed since that book was written.

Without questioning your point, Mike, let me add that the Melungeon
movement people (for lack of a more precise label at this time) have gone
to some historians, as I understand it, who are re-opening issues related
to Santa Elena especially with respect to converso immigrants from Spain,
perhaps Portugal who may represent larger populations of Islamic (or former
Islamic) populations.  Special interest is being leveled at the outlying
forts which are claimed to have been in the Piedmont or Mountainous areas
of NC, SC and close to the TN/VA tri-cities area.  I have not had a chance
to examine these claims seriously, but two intriquing points are that some
"new" data comes from documents formerly in the Soviet Block that are now
available for examination  and from re-examining primary documents on Santa
Elena rather than English translations or previous scholars' analyses.
Again, this may all be questionable, but Brent Kennedy's research group has
reputable people on it who are suggesting some interesting possibilities
once we get passed some of the hegemonic processes of racial classification
that affected census data and other "official" labeling systems.  Of
especial focus at the moment is Pletcher's efforts here in Virginia.  The
following URL has been posted to this list a few times, but, at the risk of
repetition,  <http://www.clinch.edu/appalachia/melungon> does contain some
interesting archival data on the racial issues.  Also, some interesting
material regarding the distribution of sarcoidosis cases in the US (higher
percentages in western SC and NC) may lead to some further genetic
investigation.  My basic point here is that there is more than a "mythical"
reconstruction going on, although it may be deadend.

>
>Melungeons seem to me to fit the same niche as several other groups:
>"Redbones", "Lumbee Indians", "Red Ankles", and others.  In each case,
>the historical evidence strongly suggests that the group in question are
>descended from a combination of Europeans, Native Americans, and
>African-derived populations.  In a time of legal segregation, members of
>these groups fought hard to establish a social identity that was NOT, in
>the language of the day, Negro.  They had to swim upstream against the
>rule of hypodescent: that "one drop of blood" rule.

See Pletcher story.  Also, it's my understanding that the Monacans of
Virginia are collecting data on what Pletcher did to them with respect to
racial classification.  An interesting picture is emerging here in Virginia
especially with respect to eugenics.

  While you're checking things out, take a look at a Web
>page about Melungeons:   http://www.boondock.com/juliawhite/unred.html

This link no longer works--alternates given get me into some, I think, New
Age sites.  Any suggestions?
>

>I don't recall what the current legal status of the Melungeons might
>be.

They don't have one.  Don't know that, in general, they want one.  In
attending their first reunion last year and in talking with several from
southwest Virginia including Brent Kennedy who has been leading the
resurgence of this claim to ethnicity, a basic issue is simply to offer
some type of historical and cultural legitimation to individuals'
ancestors--to allow them to place themselves in regional history and to
gain some level of identity and respect.  Common themes, as I have been led
to believe, for rising ethnicities.  I am, however, very taken by the
heart-felt intensity many "Melungeons" have toward this project.  However
it plays out, it means a lot to them.
>
>And why do I know this sort of stuff?

And why do I respond at such length?  I am a linguistic anthropologist
whose paternal ancestry is white/Indian Appalachian and who did
dissertation fieldwork on language and culture issues in SW Kentucky a few
years ago.  I have a position in Appalachian Studies at Virginia Tech which
is located in an Appalachian area where "Melungeon" is a meaningful word.
Brent Kennedy spoke here last year--about 170 people attended, most from
the county.  I found myself involved in an issue of some importance both
here and in the southwest VA/east TN region.  I also found myself
volunteering for whatever assistance I can give on the linguistic issues,
although other commitments have kept me from committing much time or effort
yet. Historical linguistics and Native American languages of the Southeast
are not among areas I've studied much at all, so any scholarly interest in
assessing these current debates would be most welcome.


Anita Puckett, Ph.D.
Appalchian Studies Program
Center for Interdisciplinary Studies
343 Lane Hall
Virginia Tech
Blacksburg, VA   24061-0227
Office:  540/231-9526
Fax:     540/231-7013
apuckett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vt.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Jun 1998 11:41:51 -0500
From:    Mary Bucholtz <bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAMU.EDU>
Subject: AAVE at the university

Another question on behalf of a grad student of mine: does anyone know of
any work on AAVE use in college classrooms? I referred her to Michele
Foster's research, but beyond that I don't know of much.

Please reply privately.

Thanks,

Mary

_______________________________________________________________________
Mary Bucholtz                           Department of English
Assistant Professor of Linguistics      Texas A&M University
bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tamu.edu                       College Station, TX 77843-4227
phone: (409) 862-3910                   fax: (409) 862-2292

_______________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Jun 1998 13:13:09 EDT
From:    Ron Butters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: plural's - a new development?

In a message dated 6/19/98 11:43:43 AM, someone wrote:

<<This [the use of apostrophes in nonpossessive plurals] is not a
'development' as you refer to it in your header line; it's
just an example of people who don't understand the rules of the language
they're speaking.  Would it be a development if I were to say "there,
their and they're" or "your and you're" or exchangable with one another?>>

     First, when they use such apostrophes, "people" are not "speaking the
language" at all, they are writing it. Indeed, apostrophes are unspeakable.
     Second, rules involving apostrophes are not "rules of the language" but
rules of spelling.
     Third, languages do indeed occasionally "develop" new rules because
someone (or group of someones) "says" there should be such a rule. For
example, that is where the rule for writing "that" instead of "which" in
restrictive relative clauses comes from.
     Fourth, if everyone agreed that " 'your' and 'you're' are exchangable
with one another" that would indeed be a "development"!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Jun 1998 17:15:55 -0700
From:    "A. Vine" <avine[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ENG.SUN.COM>
Subject: Re: plural's - a new development? (short reply to LONG repost)

Larry Horn wrote:

>In an
> example from Melanie Misanchuk (which bears striking resemblance to
> something I saw in a London pub quite recently):
>
>  I once saw, on
> a handwritten sign in a washroom, "Plea's flush the toilet".
> Now *that's* serious.
>
> _plea's flush the toilet_! I maintain that some thought had to go into that
> particular effort. It surely would have been much simpler to write
> _please..._ wouldn't it? What rule was the author following when s/he wrote
> that? Can it be put down to lack of education, confusion about the uses of
> _'s_, or is the reason more profound than that? Perhaps the author was
> attempting to produce *correct* English by using what s/he perceived as
> *high-brow* literary orthography, and over-correcting in the process of
> doing that? I still don't have answers to that central question - the
> reason, as usual, probably depends on the individual.

This looks remarkably like the makings of a folk etymology.  If the writer of
this sign has not seen the word written much (or doesn't remember exactly), s/he
might think, 'Well, it's like a plea, only I know there's an "s" sound at the
end, so it's probably a plural.  OK, here's how I would write a plural of
"plea".'  Pretty nifty.


>
> Finally, Tom Chase sounds the death knell for _'s_:
>
> "The apostrophe was introduced into English orthography rather late,
> and seems to be dying out. The number of writers who can use it
> confidently and correctly is declining; through the media of
> advertising, signage, and so on we are constantly exposed to
> "incorrect" uses (e.g., "Simpsons" rather than "Simpson's" in a
> department store chain founded by Robert Simpson).


This is sometimes due to the difficulty of securing a name legally.  For
example, the catalog merchant, Lands' End, had to spell the name as such in
order to reserve it for legal use.  I have worked for a company which had to
misspell one of the words in the name just wind up with the initials desired.


>
> English is not alone in admitting of variants in the usage of
> _'s_. French and German also suffer. There is a likelihood that
> factors such as education, over-correction due to concern about
> *correct* usage, history, *foreign-ness* of words and the fact that
> certain words _don't look right_ without the _'s_ all play a
> part. Personally, this process of change pretty much sums up for me
> why I love languages so much - wouldn't the world be a much duller
> place without the humble _'s_?
>
> Jonathan Swift Sales Executive Abbey Information Systems 1 Paper Mews
> 330 High Street Dorking RH4 2TU


I would also suggest that the Internet may be responsible for the proliferation
of a number of annoying misspellings/miswritings.  English is the most common
language currently used, and many of the writers are not native and have not had
the umpty-ump number of spelling lessons many natives had to slog through.  In
addition, based on the observations of some friends and family members who are
otherwise excellent spellers, some folks are not very good at typing and so spew
forth a veritable plethora of typos in the course of point-making.

I cannot be alone amongst this crowd in having a list of pet peeve
misspellings/misuses I encounter with the greatest of frequency?

Andrea

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 19 Jun 1998 20:44:29 -0400
From:    Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: plural's - a new development? (short reply to LONG repost)

I'm certain your not.

A. Vine wrote:

> I cannot be alone amongst this crowd in having a list of pet peeve
> misspellings/misuses I encounter with the greatest of frequency?
>
> Andrea

   --

Bob Haas
University of North Carolina at Greensboro
rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu

"No matter where you go, there you are."

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Jun 1998 to 19 Jun 1998
************************************************
There are 16 messages totalling 665 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. DISCO anachronism; Zit's Theatrical Newspaper
  2. Grammar Not Just For the Classroom
  3. Bonin Islands English
  4. bogus anecdotes (8)
  5. DISCO anachronism
  6. RE>bogus anecdotes
  7. Metro Diary Instruction Manual (was Re: RE>bogus anecdotes) (2)
  8. Is it military slang?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 2 Jun 1998 01:20:27 EDT
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: DISCO anachronism; Zit's Theatrical Newspaper

"THE LAST DAYS OF DISCO" ANACHRONISM

     I didn't see the movie and neither did Jesse Sheidlower, but he pointed
out that the word "yuppie" is mentioned by several characters.  "Yuppie" was a
1984 phenomenon and would not have been used in DISCO's time period of the
late 1970s.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
ZIT'S THEATRICAL NEWSPAPER

     I read some of Zit's Theatrical Newspaper at the Lincoln Center
Performing Arts Library.  Zit's (an early competitor of Variety) is a very
obscure paper--you know it's obscure when the Theater librarian asks another
librarian.  Zit's is on microfilm, but many years are missing.  What was
filmed was very fragile and broken apart.
     Zit's was founded by C. F. Zittel, a veteran of the New York Evening
Journal and the New York Morning Telegraph.  Only four reels (1930-1937) are
left from fourteen Zit-filled years.
     Zit's was published weekly at 254 West 54th Street.  That's now the
location of--Studio 54!  I'm sure no Zit's-ers were in LAST DAYS OF DISCO--now
THAT would be an anachronism!!
     The following lexicon is from Zit's, 24 May 1930, pg. 17, col. 4:

_CIRCUS SLANGUAGE_
     The circus, like most other diversions of show business, has a jargon of
its own, colorful and interesting.  Many of the expressions used are
unintelligible to other than circus folk.
     Here are a few:
     _A Joy_--Any clown.
     _Clown Alley_--The entire joy aggregation of a circus.
     _Kid Show_--The main sideshow.
     _Pit Show_--Small exhibition of freaks which runs continuously for a
10-cent admission charge.
     _Pad Rooms_--The dressing rooms and entrance way to big top.
     _High School Horses_--All trained horses.
     _Rosin Backs_--Horses used by bareback riders.
     _Liberty Horses_--Posing horses.
     _Cat Acts_--Any trained animal act of feline variety.
     _Bull Acts_--Elephant acts.
     _Hay Acts_--Horses, zebras, camels, etc.
     _Mud Show_--Any circus that travels in wagons.
     _Bubbles_--All balloon vendors.
     _Grease Joint_--Hot dog stands, etc.
     _Juice Joints_--Soda water stands, etc.
     _Rough Necks_--All men who handle the tents.
     _Spit Cloths_--The bright cloths around the front tier of seats.
     _Camp Fire Men_--Employees who do nothing but keep water boiling for the
cook tents.
     _Candy Butchers_--Peanuts, popcorn and candy vendors.
     _The Blues_--Unreserved seats.
     _Starbacks_--Reserved seats.
     _Ducats_--All tickets.
     _Stiffs_--The hard, general admission tickets.
     _Longs and Shorts_--Passes.  Longs carry admission to reserved section.
Shorts call for general admission only.
     _Jig Band_--Colored band for sideshows.
     _The Red Wagon_--The wagon where money and tickets are kept and where
employees are paid off.

     This is from Zit's, "Vaudeville Philosophy" by Speakin' Frank, 23 March
1935, pg. 3, col. 3:

     As long as I can remember people have been howling "I saw it first."
Long before Columbus had a tough time proving it, the question had had its
juggling from time to time.  Miners all over the world are battling over it.
We find that a daily conjecture in show business.  Say, even the columnists
are adding the "don't forget you saw it here first" line.  But amongst the
show people we have heard the indignant rise of the voice to emphasize that
they had heard it, said, saw or did it first...well, many times it has been
proven true.  But you can usually bank upon the originality of a good many
gags, bits, or even daily idioms if you peer into the vaudeville game where
much of our present words and slang phrases first burst into dawn by a casual
conversation amongst the troupers.  Observations would show that troupers live
in a world all their own, fitting and exchanging their hobbies, ideas, and
habits amongst themselves.  Instinctively they seek to originate something, to
be a little different, and their language has even found a different aspect
than the layman and often we will hear a slang word, or an idiom passed on to
the world at large where it gets its relay to farther usage.  One may classify
the troupers as a tribe of different people.  The laymen are always curious
about the lives of the troupers and often are eager to catch on to a new
saying or gag that may circulate amongst the actors or those associated with
them...Many coined idioms originated from the chatter backstage within the
social habitat...Take for instance the word "stooge" which was an old word
amongst vaudevillians, attributed to one who, in travelling wiht an act,
learned, by experience, the ways of the show world.  It was a contraction of
the word student.  I recall, long ago on the Delmar time, an act called
Galetti's Monkeys that had, travelling along, a chap whose business it was to
nurse and care for the animals, check the baggage, get tickets etc., on the
route.  He was a stooge.  Many stooges had inherent ability and sought to
learn the ways before they became proficient in developing their talents.
Today the average person confuses a stooge and a foil.  They believe a stooge
to be a dialectician in grotesque makeup who would interrupt an M.C. or a
comedian to get laughs...and do a specialty...This type of performer is a foil
or sometimes called a second comic.  A stooge doesn't necessarily mean a
comedian...tho many comedians were once stooges...For instance Joe Besser, now
a comic on his own, once trouped with Queenie Dunedin, an aerial act and never
spoke a line or did anything before the footlights...And then there is the
mistake of a straight man being a stooge...However, the word originated in
vaudeville, as did many other expressions, like, as another instance
"Chiseler" which wended its way even to high politics...It began from the
mouth of a disgruntled actor who didn't like to kick back any more than the
usual commissions.  The agent who sought to chisel some of the salary was
knicknamed (sic) "Chiseler" but the word soon sailed along as ample
description of an unscrupulous person...Likewise the word "Flop" came from
vaudeville and served to express itself in every other business...I remember
once Fred Allen casually speaking of an act "laying an egg"...the association
of the audience responding to cackling on the stage made a comparative
description of the way it went...since then the expression sailed along and,
like many of his other sayings and gags, were repeated...Once the slang
saying, "Cut the comedy" travelled along.  That too, came from a vaudeville
agent's criticism of an act...Jimmie Durante's many sayings have been adopted
in daily slang...most popular is the word "Pansy" with its inference...It
started while in rehearsal of his number, "So I Ups to Him" with the trio and
the band in vaudeville...he sought to replace "Fairy" in the song...Bill
Drewes, his trombonist, suggested the name of that flower...Durante picked it
up and made it popular and since then every comic and erstwhile humorist has
used "Pansy" at least once, and the laymen responding with a laugh carried it
further till the general every day audeince adopted it...A popular saying,
"Walking out on him" came from a closing act's difficulty in holding an
audience...Acts in vaudeville, kiding each other, brought out the "Can you top
that?" or "Follow that" or "That kills me"...the intermingling at night clubs
and elsewhere made these expressions contagious...but these and many more
originated in the wings of vaudeville.

     Zit's weekly cartoon "Burlesque Happenings" by Chas. Peanuts Bohn
contained lots of theatrical slang.  The 6 April 1935, pg. 7 cartoon shows the
saga of a "3rd Bannana."
     "Burlesque Happenings'" 13 April 1935, pg. 7 cartoon explains in the last
panel that "Quick Watson the needle" is "The latest cry in Burlesque."  The
first panel asks the reader "Vas you there Sharlie?"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN

    I've heard "Know what I mean, jelly bean?" and "Know what I mean, bean?"
since the 1960s.  Maybe McDonald's is advertising Beanie Babies this way,
which would be cool beans.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 2 Jun 1998 02:43:12 -0700
From:    Bill King <wfking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GOTNET.NET>
Subject: Re: Grammar Not Just For the Classroom

This sounds bogus.  Yes, it is possible that at Random House a group of
people on the elevator would chirp in, but would all of those people on the
elevator be editorial staff?

I doubt it.

This sounds contrived.  First of all, the "Has everybody got their floors?"
simply doesn't ring true as NY elevator operator lingo.  Maybe it's changed
since I lived there.  I won't bother going over the rest of the story because
the other examples are bogus as well.

I could make a bogus sangwich outavim.

Now here's a classic line from the Metropolitan Museum of Art's
west elevator main lobby ca. 70', 80's -- "Take a ride!".



Bethany K. Dumas wrote:

> >From the Metropolitan Diary column in today's NYTimes:
>
> -----
> Dear Diary:
>
> Visiting an editor at Random House, I stepped into a crowded elevator and
> found myself pressed close to the control panel. "Has everybody got their
> floors?" I asked.  After a moment's silence, a young female voice from the
> rear said, "His or her." "I beg your pardon?" I said. "His or her. It's
> 'Has everybody got his or her floors?' Your pronouns don't agree." "And
> shouldn't it be 'his or her floor', not 'floors'?" a young man piped up.
> "Each of us gets off at only one floor." "And wouldn't it be better to
> say 'Does everybody have?' rather than 'Has everybody got?'" a third voice
> chimed in. I stood corrected -- and red faced. But I was glad to know that
> good grammar is alive and well.
>
> RICHARD CURTIS
> -----
> Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 2 Jun 1998 20:40:28 +0900
From:    Daniel Long <dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP>
Subject: Bonin Islands English

Dear Colleagues,

The editing work has been completed on a volume of Japanese and English
papers entitled The Linguistic Culture of the Ogasawara (Bonin) Islands,
which will be volume 6 of the _Japanese Language Research Center
Reports_ published here at Osaka Shoin Women's College.  It will be
available from June 20th.

The table of contents and text of the introduction (both in English) are
available on our website, and the extensive "Bibliography of
Humanities-Related Works on the Ogasawara Islands" contained in the
volume is available online as well.
http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/index-e.htm

Some of you have expressed an interested in the collection of papers
(and I have not forgotten those of you who have).  If anyone else would
like a copy, please contact me at the email address below.
My own paper in the volume (The History of Language Contact in the
Ogasawara Islands) is in Japanese this time, but I hope to publish a
similar paper in English as soon as possible.

My thanks to those of you who expressed interest, support and who lent
your advice.

Sincerely,

Daniel Long
--
Daniel Long, Associate Professor     tel  +81-6-723-8297
Japanese Language Research Center    fax  +81-6-723-8302
Osaka Shoin Women's College          dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp
4-2-26 Hishiyanishi                  http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/
Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577-8550

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:16:23 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: bogus anecdotes

Someone questioned the veracity of the RH elevator narrative. (Sorry, I
deleted before I noted who wrote it.) Certainly, some of the
Metropolitan Diary entries are bogus. Recently, I read there the old urban
legend about the nun who bought the package of cookies, encountered a man
who helped himself, etc. -- she, of course, later finds her package of
cookies in her bag and realizes that she was the one who helped herself
to somebody else's cookies. My point: I do not recall reading any
published research about the hallmarks of bogus narratives, about what it
is I know that lets me know that a narrative is bogus. Is there
something? Is someone working on this?

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 2 Jun 1998 08:38:22 -0400
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <gd2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: bogus anecdotes

At 08:16 AM 6/2/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Someone questioned the veracity of the RH elevator narrative. (Sorry, I
>deleted before I noted who wrote it.) Certainly, some of the
>Metropolitan Diary entries are bogus. Recently, I read there the old urban
>legend about the nun who bought the package of cookies, encountered a man
>who helped himself, etc. -- she, of course, later finds her package of
>cookies in her bag and realizes that she was the one who helped herself
>to somebody else's cookies. My point: I do not recall reading any
>published research about the hallmarks of bogus narratives, about what it
>is I know that lets me know that a narrative is bogus. Is there
>something? Is someone working on this?
>
>Bethany
>

There's been a lot of collecting of "urban folklore" or "modern folklore,"
as well as a good deal of research analysing it and debunking it and, in
some cases, tracing how a particular idea or story arose.

Here are a couple of things that sometimes give folklore away -- (1) As a
prior poster mentioned, various elements in the story seem unlikely or
impossible when you start to examine them. (2) The story seems to have a
cultural agenda of some kind, which gives it the momentum it needs to get
over the hurdles that might be raised by its lack of realism. In fact, it is
probably this agenda which is responsible for why the story was designed the
way it was, and why it resonated and got retold.

A very common "authentifying" feature of such folklore is either "I was
there" or "I heard it from someone who was there." I imagine that, as
journalists, NYTimes writers are more likely to say that they themselves
have obtained the information at first hand.

Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or gd2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:27:05 -0400
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: bogus anecdotes

At 8:38 AM -0400 6/2/98, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote:
>At 08:16 AM 6/2/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>Someone questioned the veracity of the RH elevator narrative. (Sorry, I
>>deleted before I noted who wrote it.) Certainly, some of the
>>Metropolitan Diary entries are bogus. Recently, I read there the old urban
>>legend about the nun who bought the package of cookies, encountered a man
>>who helped himself, etc. -- she, of course, later finds her package of
>>cookies in her bag and realizes that she was the one who helped herself
>>to somebody else's cookies. My point: I do not recall reading any
>>published research about the hallmarks of bogus narratives, about what it
>>is I know that lets me know that a narrative is bogus. Is there
>>something? Is someone working on this?
>>
>>Bethany
>>
>
>There's been a lot of collecting of "urban folklore" or "modern folklore,"
>as well as a good deal of research analysing it and debunking it and, in
>some cases, tracing how a particular idea or story arose.
>
>Here are a couple of things that sometimes give folklore away -- (1) As a
>prior poster mentioned, various elements in the story seem unlikely or
>impossible when you start to examine them. (2) The story seems to have a
>cultural agenda of some kind, which gives it the momentum it needs to get
>over the hurdles that might be raised by its lack of realism. In fact, it is
>probably this agenda which is responsible for why the story was designed the
>way it was, and why it resonated and got retold.

As in the "yeah, yeah" / "yeah, right" story, in which typically it's a
"pompous professor of linguistics" (or variant thereof) who gets skewered.
But I've heard the Morgenbesser version from philosophers often enough to
think there's a 50-50 chance it could have been an actual anecdote rather
than urban legend.  Of course, that's no doubt what others say about the
Neiman-Marcus cookies, the stolen corpse-containing suitcase, the
alligators in the sewers, etc. etc.
  There's also the intermediate case, which conceivably could apply here:
an actual exchange or series of exchanges, edited and "improved" to advance
that cultural agenda more convincingly or memorably.

>
>A very common "authentifying" feature of such folklore is either "I was
>there" or "I heard it from someone who was there." I imagine that, as
>journalists, NYTimes writers are more likely to say that they themselves
>have obtained the information at first hand.
>
True, but note for this particular case that a Metropolitan Diary entry is
neither submitted by nor corroborated by a reporter, just selected by one.
(They're just sent in by readers, representing no more inherently accurate
pieces of journalism than, say, submissions to Penthouse Forum.)

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:31:33 -0400
From:    Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: bogus anecdotes

> Bethany Dumas wrote:
> >Someone questioned the veracity of the RH elevator narrative. (Sorry, I
> >deleted before I noted who wrote it.) Certainly, some of the
> >Metropolitan Diary entries are bogus. Recently, I read there the old urban
> >legend about the nun who bought the package of cookies, encountered a man
> >who helped himself, etc. -- she, of course, later finds her package of
> >cookies in her bag and realizes that she was the one who helped herself
> >to somebody else's cookies. My point: I do not recall reading any
> >published research about the hallmarks of bogus narratives, about what it
> >is I know that lets me know that a narrative is bogus. Is there
> >something? Is someone working on this?

Greg Downing replied:
> A very common "authentifying" feature of such folklore is either "I was
> there" or "I heard it from someone who was there." I imagine that, as
> journalists, NYTimes writers are more likely to say that they themselves
> have obtained the information at first hand.

Two points:

(1) The "Metropolitan Diary" section isn't written by Times journalists; it
is a section of anecdotes sent in by readers, some of whom (though not
this one) choose to remain unidentified. If anyone was really interested
in the voracity [tm a.f.u.] of this story, they [sic] could probably
get in touch with the contributor.

(2) As someone who has been taking the elevators at RH at least four times
a day for the past eight years or so, I can say that this anecdote is
staggeringly unlikely to have really occurred.

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 2 Jun 1998 09:40:04 -0400
From:    Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: DISCO anachronism

Barry Popik wrote:
>
> "THE LAST DAYS OF DISCO" ANACHRONISM
>
>      I didn't see the movie and neither did Jesse Sheidlower, but he pointed
> out that the word "yuppie" is mentioned by several characters.  "Yuppie" was a
> 1984 phenomenon and would not have been used in DISCO's time period of the
> late 1970s.

I still haven't seen this, but published reports say that the movie is
set in the "very early 1980s." This is still too early for "yuppie" (my
earliest for the word is 1982, though a reliable source alleges an earlier
use)--as Barry notes, the word became a phenomenon in 1984. Reports of
the movie say that the characters discuss yuppies at some length, and
comment on "Die Yuppie Scum" graffiti, etc.--all impossible for the "very
early 1980s," however this is interpreted.

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:34:33 -0400
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <gd2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: bogus anecdotes

At 09:27 AM 6/2/98 -0400, you wrote:
>>A very common "authentifying" feature of such folklore is either "I was
>>there" or "I heard it from someone who was there." I imagine that, as
>>journalists, NYTimes writers are more likely to say that they themselves
>>have obtained the information at first hand.
>>
>True, but note for this particular case that a Metropolitan Diary entry is
>neither submitted by nor corroborated by a reporter, just selected by one.


Since I don't read all of the Times except on weekends, I wasn't aware of
that feature's special nonjournalistic status. You mean any of us can send
them a fantasy, or a recast/improved anecdote, and they might print it if
they think it's amusing? Is it the newspaper of record, or the newspaper of
the dance remix?


>(They're just sent in by readers, representing no more inherently accurate
>pieces of journalism than, say, submissions to Penthouse Forum.)
>
>Larry
>

Gee, I was always told that the Old usedtobeGrey Lady holds herself to
higher standards than Penthouse Fantasies, I mean Penthouse Forum.

Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or gd2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:34:35 -0400
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <gd2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: bogus anecdotes

At 09:31 AM 6/2/98 -0400, you wrote:
>(2) As someone who has been taking the elevators at RH at least four times
>a day for the past eight years or so, I can say that this anecdote is
>staggeringly unlikely to have really occurred.
>
>Jesse Sheidlower
><jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>
>

Q.E.D.

Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or gd2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:17:01 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: RE>bogus anecdotes

The Metropolitan Diary section of the New York Times, published on Mondays in the Metro section (which I do not believe is included in editions outside of the NY metro area), has long been a sources of great wonder for me, mainly because I can't believe that most of these are not made up. More than a few I have seen elsewhere.

[You can read the feature at: http://www.nytimes.com/library/national/regional/ny-col-alexander.html
You may have to register, for free.]

For those of you who do not know, Metro Diary prints anecdotes, stories and bits of poetry submitted by (as far as I can tell), Upper East Side matrons and other people who don't get out much and have too much time on their hands. These are very much like the anecdotes in Reader's Digest.

Recently, they adjusted the editorial staff for this feature, besides moving it from Wednesday to Monday, and as a result I believe a lot more garbage has been slipping into print.

I first heard the story about the cookies (person buys cookies, sits at table with stranger, thinks stranger is eating person's cookies, person and stranger continue to eat same cookies, person realizes later cookies were actually stranger's and that person's cookies are untouched) in a book by Douglas Adams, and I believe it was "Dark Tea-Time for the Soul" although it could have been fourth or fifth book in his "Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" trilogy.

In the past, I put together this instruction list for some coworkers. You might find it amusing.

 How To Get A Piece Printed in the Time's Metropolitan Diary

1. Be more than 50 years of age, and have imperfect hearing. An inability to correctly separate events that happened to you and events that happened to others is helpful.

2. Although you never ride the subway, force yourself take a ride for a few blocks. All of the comments, insults and muttered complaints will seem fresh, and you can write them down. It's a gold mine! Particularly if you get a curmudgeonly but comic conductor!

4. Have grandkids, or nieces and nephews. Write down everything they say. Some of it will definitely be funny, but you'll have to test it on Muriel, Murray and Saul when they come over for canasta. If they have better stories about their little ones, use those instead.

5. Feel free to recycle Bennet Cerf anecdotes. Nobody reads him anymore.

6. Consider foreigners and tourists items for your amusement. If they don't speak very good English, more's the better.

7. Be creative. You are your only witness, so if you have to pretend that your niece said, "Zabar-toothed tiger," then so be it.

8. Be a good editor. Edit out everyone in a story except yourself, if you can. If you can get away with saying you overheard the anecdote, you've done it. Now you don't have to mention any name but your own.

9. Women over 45 are always "of a certain age." Children are always less than five and always precocious. Pregnant women are always beautiful. Taxi drivers are always wise, and full of advice, and we never mention that they are _not from here_. Subway announcers are always comedians. Cops are always forgiving, friendly and like a good son.

10. Remember, the Metro Diary never runs stories about men masturbating on public transport, people walking down the street dripping blood, fishing just to survive in the Hudson River, getting spotted by your neighbor going into a porn shop, the time you berated the cleaning lady for not understanding English, which dry cleaner always cracks the buttons on your shirts, the time your purse was snatched, how nobody wears hats anymore and why, although Guiliani may be out of hand, you agree with his policy on food vendors because sometimes those over-cooked pretzels just *stink.*

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 2 Jun 1998 10:58:39 -0400
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Metro Diary Instruction Manual (was Re: RE>bogus anecdotes)

Hey, Grant -- you go girl! Love your instruction manual!

FWIW, the Diary beats the heck out of the local attempts at humor. Most
recent attempt of the Daily Beacon was "Best of Crime Log," a
compilation of the most "amusing" crime reports from the campus from
the last year. Ex:

Tuesday, April 28
*11:25 p.m. KPD requested backup on a vandalism in progress at the
Kingston Apartments G9 parking area.

Wednesday, April 29
*12:09 a.m. Officer advised that he was transporting the subject
involved in the vandalism of his own vehicle at the Kingston
Apartments to detox.

(This is the same Daily Beacon which once made it into the columns of New
Yorker Magazine for the ff. sentence: "The semester is not a universal
pancreas.")

Bethany, wondering if Metro Diary is a genre that should now be introduced
into sophomore lit courses

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 2 Jun 1998 11:41:49 -0400
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <gd2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Metro Diary Instruction Manual (was Re: RE>bogus anecdotes)

At 10:58 AM 6/2/98 -0400, you wrote:
>Bethany [Dumas], wondering if Metro Diary is a genre that should now be
>introduced into sophomore lit courses
>

Or, sophomoric lit! Or, just drop the sopho- ("wise") altogether, but then
you have to add -on- to the end of the remaining root, and you definitely
have to use the -ic adjective-ending. Gosh, I never knew what I was missing
out on by not reading the NYTimes on weekdays.

Hey, I'd recommend they just hire Stephen Glass -- he's good at vivid
made-up anecdotes that have a cultural agenda. And he's not under contract
right now. But then again, why pay him when you can get the readers to send
in material for free?

Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or gd2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 2 Jun 1998 23:21:49 +0200
From:    Roberto Serrai <serrai[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DADA.IT>
Subject: Is it military slang?

Hi,
my name is Roberto Serrai, I am an italian professional translator.
I am currently working on Bruce Robinson's ("The Killing Fields",
screenplay) first novel, "The Peculiar Memories of Thomas Penman."
In this book, a character gets wounded at Passchendaele in WWI.
The Germans take him to an hospital in Koblenz:

"It was a story his grandson liked to hear. He liked hearing about the
Germans and magic flies. The hospital in Koblenz was full of both and
Walter [the character] genuinely never knew which one of them saved
him."

Has anyone, please, an idea about what those "magic flies" could be?
I've looked everywhere...
Thanks,

Roberto Serrai

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 2 Jun 1998 17:26:07 -0400
From:    Evan Morris <words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM>
Subject: Re: bogus anecdotes

At 10:34 AM 6/2/98 -0400, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote:

>Since I don't read all of the Times except on weekends, I wasn't aware of
>that feature's special nonjournalistic status. You mean any of us can send
>them a fantasy, or a recast/improved anecdote, and they might print it if
>they think it's amusing?

Oh, you betcha.  Especially if it reeks of smarmy elitism, as that one did.

>Is it the newspaper of record, or the newspaper of
>the dance remix?

It's the newspaper of the professional overclass in NYC.  It makes a huge
profit by ignoring 99% of the people who live here and pandering to the
limitless self-regard of the Range Rover set.  As far as NYC goes, The Times
has roughly the same journalistic focus (and, consequently, ethics) as
Architectural Digest.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 2 Jun 1998 22:37:16 -0400
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <gd2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: bogus anecdotes

At 05:26 PM 6/2/98 -0400, Evan Morris wrote:
>At 10:34 AM 6/2/98 -0400, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote:
>>Since I don't read all of the Times except on weekends, I wasn't aware of
>>that feature's special nonjournalistic status. You mean any of us can send
>>them a fantasy, or a recast/improved anecdote, and they might print it if
>>they think it's amusing?
>
>Oh, you betcha.  Especially if it reeks of smarmy elitism, as that one did.
>

But isn't elitism great, as long as you actually don't have to do much to
claim it? (Add your own emoticon here.)

Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or gd2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Jun 1998 to 2 Jun 1998
**********************************************