There are 2 messages totalling 44 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Mail Delivery Status 2. Cajun say-so ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Jun 1994 00:00:00 GMT From: Central Postmaster Subject: Mail Delivery Status ***** Error in Mail Delivery ***** COPY TO TARGET DATASET FAILED; FINL DOCUMENT UNAVAILABLE FOR D Recipients: BIELLA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EMAIL.LOC.GOV ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Jun 1994 10:52:12 CDT From: Mike Picone Subject: Cajun say-so Thanks, Clayton Gillespie, for the input on say-so: >My grandparents are Tippidot Cajun, and so I have had the opportunity >to misapprehend the patois on many occasions. For example, to me, >"Mon cher" sounds like "Moe shah" when spoken in the patois. Perhaps >the above usage is a bad transcription of "soupc,on"? >- Clayton Gillespie Something like this had crossed my mind, and it may in the end pan out as well as anything else. But the problem is that the Cajun speakers whom I have talked with and who are aware of it seem to think of say-so as being of English origin. Perhaps I should mention that single lexical items of English origin are pandemic in contemporary Cajun French discourse generally. Usually, due to of generalized bilingualism, they are unassimilated at the phonological and morphological levels, except for some frequently found terms used by the oldest speakers. Clayton, is Tippidot a variant of Thibodaux? I know of the latter as a town on the Bayou Lafourche and as a common family name (sometimes spelled Thibodeaux). Mike Picone University of Alabama ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 31 May 1994 to 1 Jun 1994 *********************************************** There are 6 messages totalling 120 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Cajun say-so 2. truce terms 3. Truce Terms (3) 4. Looking for an address ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Jun 1994 01:43:31 -0400 From: Clayton Gillespie Subject: Cajun say-so >Clayton, is Tippidot a variant of Thibodaux? I know of the latter as a town >on the Bayou Lafourche and as a common family name (sometimes spelled >Thibodeaux). > >Mike Picone Mike, I have ridden through the town from which my grandparents come, but by looking at my atlas it is not Thibodaux. Their origin is definitely west of Baton Rouge and probably north. It is a small town, perhaps you know it, rice farms, company store, zydeco on friday nights. "Tippidot" is my own approximate spelling and I'm not even sure that it is supposed to be regional; it is simply how I remember them representing their ethnic identity: "Oh yes, we're Tippidot Cajun." Tippidot is not a family name either; everyone on that side is a Lindsay, Abbot, Torbert, or Mouton (no sheep jokes, please). Your spelling is probably better than mine, and I should know better since I've met a Thibeaux or two. It wouldn't surprise me if there is another smaller town with a name similar to Thibodaux since where my grandparents currently live is between Nacogdoches and Natchitoches (ooh shai-yah). Good luck. - Clayton Gillespie Electra Software & Consulting clayke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]delphi.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jun 1994 09:50:29 -700 From: Keith Russell Subject: Re: truce terms On Tue, 31 May 1994, Luanne von Schneidemesser wrote: > Truce terms I happen to have been looking at recently in DARE's > database. The most frequent term, 332 informants, is time out, > which while scattered throughout most of the country is most > frequent east of the Mississippi River. Complementing this is > the next most frequent response, 265 informants, king's ex, a > beautiful map which will appear in vol. 3, showing responses in > Ohio, Illinois, the Mississippi Valley, and west of this -- the > Atlantic coast is almost completely without this response. The > next most frequent responses are time (83), times out (56), times > (53), king's (23), and free (11). In Southern Alberta, 'time out' and 'king's ex (or X)' were both common on the 50's. I'm pretty sure I also remember 'time,' 'times out,' and 'times.' I don't think I've ever heard 'king's' or 'free.' Keith Russell wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]us.dynix.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jun 1994 10:09:13 -0700 From: "Joseph B. Monda" Subject: Re: Truce Terms On Mon, 30 May 1994, Keith Russell wrote: > On Mon, 30 May 1994 mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU wrote: > > > King's X? But I don't know if that was local (NW Ill.) or something we > > got from the movies. > > Definitely not local. It was common in Southern Alberta. > > Keith Russell > wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]us.dynix.com > And in North Central Washington in the 1930's. We also crossed our fingers. Joe Monda ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jun 1994 13:41:00 EDT From: "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU> Subject: Re: Truce Terms I assumed that crossing the fingers was necessary. It was, in fact, the (folk?) etymology of 'King's X.' Your fingers were 'X-ed.' In fact, sneaky kids would be tagged and then reveal that their toes were crossed, apparently in those safer times down Louisville way, making one immune. I even remember some kids claiming immunity since their hair or eyes were crossed. These claims usually led to extended debate. Dennis Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jun 1994 12:41:45 -0700 From: THOMAS L CLARK Subject: Re: Truce Terms On Thu, 2 Jun 1994, Joseph B. Monda wrote: [snip] > And in North Central Washington in the 1930's. We also crossed our fingers. > Joe Monda > In Montana we said "times" and formed our index fingers in an X, also. As I recall, one could even do this while wearing mittens or a baseball glove. Tom Clark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 2 Jun 1994 21:47:29 EDT From: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Looking for an address Does anybody know Mike Miller's new address? Thanks - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Jun 1994 to 2 Jun 1994 ********************************************** There are 3 messages totalling 82 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Playing catchup 2. tom- ? 3. Aware Redux ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 2 Jun 1994 23:23:23 CDT From: "Krahn, Al" Subject: Playing catchup We have plenty of Tin Roof sundaes around yet, especially at Leon's Custard Stand, the place where Clinton stopped for a cone. It is simply a choc sundae with spanish peanuts on top. A & W Root Beer stands still serve Black Cows, I believe: root beer float. Chocolate coke, one of my old favorites. Green River was a flavoring which was used to make a phosphate. It was a trade named syrup that was in a big dispenser mounted to the soda fountain (and it is still "soda" here, regardless of what DARE might say). A milk shake was just flavored milk. If you wanted ice cream in it, it was usually a malt -- which is malt flavoring and any other flavor as well. So you could have a strawbery malt, a chocolate malt, etc. Malts could be ordered in varying degrees of thickness or thinness. Stroh's/straws revisited: I was in a bar in Denver in the summer of 1956. A patron asked the bartender for a SLITS. As a Milwaukeean, I was curious to see what would be served. Sure enough, the bartender brought a SHHHLITS beer. Of course, Schlitz is now owned by Stroh's, and Old Milwaukee is now brewed in Old Detroit. Nobody seems to have missed it, though. I drink Beck's and Bitberger or a local micro brew. Confession: It is Walgreens -- with an s but no apostrophe -- in their ads and on their buildings. It has no s in the Yellow Pages, though. Here it was "Red Rover, Red Rover, let so-and-so come over." AKRA Albert E. Krahn E-Mail AKRA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSIC.LIB.MATC.EDU Division of Lib. Arts and Sciences Fax 414/297-7990 Milwaukee Area Technical College Ph (H) 414/476-4025 Milwaukee, WI 53233-1443 Ph (W) 414/297-6519 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 12:09:47 -0400 From: GURT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: tom- ? Last night a young man (high school junior) called Thomas was wondering about tom- as a morpheme denoting maleness, as in tomcat and tom turkey (and tomboy, "but shouldn't that be `tomgirl'?", which seems logical to me ;-) ). I have no idea (and I'm not at home this week, so it's a little harder for me to check), and I told Thomas I'd post to the list. Anyone? Thanks! I'll forward replies to his dad to share with him. Joan C. Cook Department of Linguistics Georgetown University cookj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.acc.georgetown.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 3 Jun 1994 15:13:00 -0700 From: "Joseph B. Monda" Subject: Re: Aware Redux I have been informed that "aware" is used in and around Greater Seattle as a transitive verb by police officers who say "I awared him of his rights." "Spendy" is in use in So. Cal., and in Greater Seattle, as a synonym for "expensive." Joe Monda ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Jun 1994 to 3 Jun 1994 ********************************************** There are 3 messages totalling 84 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. infomercial 2. Words of the Year (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 09:24:39 -0500 From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: infomercial We have arrived: the June 6 issue of the _New Yorker_, p. 98, has one of those "stupid things in the news" squibs, and it's about us. To wit: Still, the "information superhighway" rolls on. The American Dialect Society voted the phrase Word of the Year for 1993.-- _Wall Street Journal__. The society speaks a dialect all its own. So, Allan, are you still touting the New Yorker's "education" program? I suppose it's time to fall back on the old editor's ploy, any publicity is good publicity. Dennis --- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 13:35:37 EDT From: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Words of the Year Thanks for noticing the notice, Dennis! [Note: Dennis *B.*, that is.] Just shows how little I've been reading my New Yorker. They've practically given up on their column-ending fillers (they have a special name for them, which I've forgotten), but we made it. Of course the honor is really due to our friend Danny Pearl at the Wall St Journal. He could have put it more gracefully. I told him, as I have told others, that it's *word or phrase* of the year. And those are my two favorite publications! It is interesting that while the NY is no longer squeamish about 4-letter words, it retains the linguistic priggishness typified by Dwight MacDonald's savage review of Webster's 3rd in 1961, or by that bizarre bible of writing instruction Strunk & White, or by the memoirs of NY writers arguing with copy editors word by word but never questioning the latters' authority. The most extreme example that this attitude is alive and well is in the 10 January 1994 New Yorker, a cartoon by Justin Green showing a person carving a word or phrase for each year on what looks like the Washington Monument: 87 spin control, 86 downsizing, 89 wildin' . . . , 93 policy wonks - and on the ground below, a downcast weeping female figure in robe and sandals holding a US shield, wearing a crown and the label "proper usage", beneath her an open book labeled Webster's upside down on the grass. In an ADS publication, or in your book, Dennis, I'd take that as a satire on usageasters, but in the NY I read it as a heart-rending defense of the besmirched purity of our language. It would be interesting to study the staunch symbiotic connection between literati (and for that matter, literary criticati) and extreme linguistic prescriptivism. Dr Johnson is the archetype. We rejoice in his conversion, as literary figure becomes lexicographer and recognizes verities of language change, but has anyone figured out why literary figures are so fussy to begin with? You, Dennis, have provided in your books much evidence of prescriptivism past and present; I think also of Dick Bailey. But do we yet have a fully satisfying explanation of the touching faith in one logical ideal language held by intelligent, skilled professional writers & editors? It's as if Nobel-prize-winning scientists were all creationists. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 6 Jun 1994 20:53:48 -0500 From: mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Words of the Year Allan wanted to know why literary types were so fussy. No answer here, but another example: when I first taught fresh comp at Millikin U, I hd a young colleague who was a poet by vocation, hung out with James Merrill. This guy would scream about the corrupt use of language. "I hate my students," he would say. Tim Frazer ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Jun 1994 to 6 Jun 1994 ********************************************** There is one message totalling 40 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Words of the Year ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 7 Jun 1994 08:27:42 EDT From: Wayne Glowka Subject: Re: Words of the Year >Allan wanted to know why literary types were so fussy. No answer here, >but another example: when I first taught fresh comp at Millikin U, I hd >a young colleague who was a poet by vocation, hung out with James Merrill. >This guy would scream about the corrupt use of language. "I hate my >students," he would say. > >Tim Frazer They are fussy because they are ignorant of anything but their own intuitive language processes. They believe that a ten-page grammar of English is adequate for all purposes and claim that such a grammar is beyond their students--a projection of their own limitations. They cannot imagine that someone might actually want a degree in English LANGUAGE. They also suffer from acute classism: they abjure a life that requires them to instruct the unwashed. Flawed themselves, they spend their time picking out what they see as flaws in others. When one of them is ranting about the inability of a student to write "without grammar," ask how it is that favorite books such as _Huckleberry Finn_ and _The Color Purple_ are great works of art written in dialect. The ensuing embarrassment is wonderful. These people cannot tell you that they prefer Johnson's fiction because of its cultured prose. They've never read Johnson's admission on the futility of language control. They drive me crazy. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Jun 1994 to 7 Jun 1994 ********************************************** There are 6 messages totalling 107 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. American Language and Culture (3) 2. Three Dialects of English (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 07:53:22 EDT From: Wayne Glowka Subject: American Language and Culture Can someone suggest useful texts for new international graduate students that would introduce them to the realities of American English (idioms, conversation rituals in various settings, maybe pronunciation) and American culture (students are expected to attend class, people wear deodorant, Christians believe such and such, punctuality is important, etc.)? Wayne Glowka Professor of English Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 12:35:17 -0400 From: Elizabeth Martinez Subject: Re: American Language and Culture Have you looked thru the Delta Systems Catalog for ESL Resources? They have a number of different books that might interest you. One, that might be of use is AMERICAN WAYS by Gary Althen. Delta Systems' fax is: (708) 551-9435; and their phone # (708) 551-9595. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 12:27:06 CST From: salikoko mufwene Subject: Re: American Language and Culture In Message Thu, 9 Jun 1994 07:53:22 EDT, Wayne Glowka writes: >Can someone suggest useful texts for new international graduate students >that would introduce them to the realities of American English (idioms, >conversation rituals in various settings, maybe pronunciation) and American >culture (students are expected to attend class, people wear deodorant, >Christians believe such and such, punctuality is important, etc.)? > Wayne: Some of the topics you have in mind are discussed in a small book edited by Philip R. DeVita and James D. Armstrong. 1993. DISTANT MIRRORS: AMRICA AS A FOREIGN CULTURE. Wadsworth Publishing Co. 145pp. I doubt that any of the contributors discusses use of deodorant! Best, Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene Linguistics, U. of Chicago s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 16:13:00 EST From: ALICE FABER Subject: Three Dialects of English The Yale Library as had Penny Eckert's book New Ways of Analyzing Sound Change as "on order" for the past two years. Meanwhile, I have been using a faded n'th generation copy of Labov's paper on the Three Dialects of English. This copy has no page numbers. So I'd be most grateful if anyone who HAS a copy could let me know the page numbers the paper appears on. This is the last thing I need in compiling a bibliography. Thank you all in advance. Alice Faber Faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Haskins.Yale.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 16:22:45 EDT From: Bruce Southard Subject: Re: Three Dialects of English Labov's article appears as pages 1-44 of Eckert's book, which was published in 1991 by Academic Press (San Diego). BRUCE SOUTHARD ENGLISH DEPARTMENT EAST CAROLINA UNIVERSITY ENSOUTHA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ECUVM1 ENSOUTHA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ECUVM.CIS.ECU.EDU 919-757-6041 919-757-4889 (FAX) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 21:03:00 EDT From: "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU> Subject: Three Dialects of English One of the most reasonable e-mail requests I've seen this year: Labov, William. 1991. The three dialects of English. In Penelope Eckert (ed.), New ways of analyzing sound change (Quantitative Analysis of Linguistic Struc ture 5). San Diego: Academic, 1-44. Dennis Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Jun 1994 to 9 Jun 1994 ********************************************** There are 2 messages totalling 32 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. American Language and Culture 2. Three Dialects of English ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 9 Jun 1994 20:59:08 -0700 From: Judith Rascoe Subject: Re: American Language and Culture It also occurs to me that foreign readers could be terribly confused by what _has_ been written on deodorants. Scorn for them and paeans to "fresh, healthy skin and soap and water" have been written since the '60s by well-intended back to nature types who have apparently never shared an elevator in a tropical climate with people from certain deodorant-free places in northern Europe. I think this could be a wonderful example of how actual cultural practice diverges from the declarations of the 'high culture'. Much scorn has been poured on deodorant advertising in America -- but the actual reception of a well-fed American going au naturel in the business world might be quite different. Americans, in my experience, are very much taken aback by the ripe tang of recent immigrants from the former USSR, for instance. And on the other hand, black Americans -- long accused of 'smelling' by bigots -- tend to be the least offensive patrons of the New York subway, perhaps because they'll be damned if they'll give somebody cause to criticize them. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 00:26:22 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: Three Dialects of English Response to Alice Faber's request for page numbers for Labov's "Three Dialects" article -- 1-44. Excellent article. DMLance ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Jun 1994 to 10 Jun 1994 *********************************************** There are 2 messages totalling 85 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. American Language and Culture 2. N*E*W*S from A*D*S ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 10 Jun 1994 21:19:37 -0700 From: THOMAS L CLARK Subject: Re: American Language and Culture On Thu, 9 Jun 1994, Wayne Glowka wrote: > Can someone suggest useful texts for new international graduate students > that would introduce them to the realities of American English (idioms, > conversation rituals in various settings, maybe pronunciation) and American > culture (students are expected to attend class, people wear deodorant, > Christians believe such and such, punctuality is important, etc.)? I just got some advice from the intrepid Metcalf the Magnificent that might be of service to you. I asked him what publications I should take to Israel that would best show teachers of American English the language and culture under discussion. He said that of ALL the scholarly and linguistically and politically correct publications he took with him (an extra suitcase in itself), the one that made a big hit was _Sassy_ magazine. Now I had NEVER heard of _Sassy_, so I went out and bought a copy. It had all the latest lingo, dood, and the best reasons for underarm shaving (kills crabs) and using deoderant, PLUS explaining all the latest rock groups like Slinging Pitch, Worsted Wool Gatherers, and Torn Hangnail. I realized that we (America) have exported more than McDonald's. We have exported a way of life... tight jeans, nipple covers, and tattoos on the butt. We may have also transmitted some other values that make people, even graduate students, interested in our culture. We may even have some higher values to transmit, once we get beyond the Cosmopolitan Man of the Year. I guess that the subtext here is that you use linguistic texts for language, and popular publications for insights into culture. Cheers, Thomas L. Clark tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu P.S. Wayne, I am personally carrying YOUR book to be given to ETAI (English Teachers Association of Israel). 8-) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 11 Jun 1994 22:35:56 EDT From: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: N*E*W*S from A*D*S Read all about it! - Full program for the American Dialect Society annual meeting! - Full details on how to reserve your room for that meeting in our incomparable San Diego (Coronado) location, at our special price! - Full programs for A.D.S. regional meetings: Rocky Mountain, South Central, Midwest, South Atlantic! - Our PC program for the NCTE convention! - Our preliminary program for the LSA annual meeting, and a second call for papers! - Nine new books by A.D.S. members! - The scoop on what you can find at the Western Historical MS. Collection in Columbia, Missouri! - How you can learn the secrets of slang, six times a year! - Answers to 8 basic questions about Cajun language and culture! - A special 4-page report on trends in teaching about language variation! - Preview of the next 3 issues of _Publication of the American Dialect Society_! Is that all? Hah! No, we also have the scoop on - NWAV at Stanford Oct 20-23! Where to send abstracts, who the invited speakers are, what the special performances will be! - The Dictionary Society of North America. Want to know where they'll meet next summer, and who's the organizer? Whew! Well, the only way you can get all this (and more) information is to open your copy of the May 1994 issue of the _Newsletter of the American Dialect Society_. It is now in the first class mail (or air mail overseas) to members of the A.D.S. If you are not a member, send me your s-mail address and I'll send you a free copy. Or you can send through the US mail the $30 annual dues, and you'll get this plus our quarterly journal _American Speech_ plus our annual monograph _P.A.D.S._, which this year will feature - well, read all about it in the newsletter! Members, check your mailboxes in the week of June 13....then settle down in the cool shade with a tall one and feast on the news. Allan Metcalf Executive Secretary, A.D.S. MacMurray College English Dept Jacksonville, Illinois 62650 USA ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Jun 1994 to 11 Jun 1994 ************************************************ There is one message totalling 32 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. American Language and Culture ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 13 Jun 1994 08:18:27 EDT From: Wayne Glowka Subject: Re: American Language and Culture >On Thu, 9 Jun 1994, Wayne Glowka wrote: > >> Can someone suggest useful texts for new international graduate students >> that would introduce them to the realities of American English (idioms, >> conversation rituals in various settings, maybe pronunciation) and American >> culture (students are expected to attend class, people wear deodorant, >> Christians believe such and such, punctuality is important, etc.)? >Thomas L. Clark >tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu > >P.S. Wayne, I am personally carrying YOUR book to be given to ETAI >(English Teachers Association of Israel). 8-) Tom, Take four or five hundred, please. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Jun 1994 to 13 Jun 1994 ************************************************ There is one message totalling 17 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Raven mcD ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 14 Jun 1994 08:34:18 -0500 From: mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Raven mcD Question, folks: Somewhere Raven McDavid refers to the Atlas as a "benchmark" study against which languge change is to be measured. I can't find it. Is it in "Dialects and Culture?" I need that specific citation with that word. Help! Tim Frazer ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Jun 1994 to 14 Jun 1994 ************************************************ There are 2 messages totalling 30 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. redbird (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 12:34:18 CDT From: Mike Picone Subject: redbird Our library here is (shamefully) missing some volumes of DARE. I've asked them to reorder, but in the meantime I need help knowing the distribution of _redbird_, as opposed to _cardinal_, especially in Louisiana. Can anybody help me out? Mike Picone University of Alambama ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 15 Jun 1994 17:54:00 EDT From: "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU> Subject: redbird I don't know about Louisiana, but Picone may have trouble sorting out the distribution of Cardinal and Redbird if it's anything like it was in the Louisville area in the 40's and 50's. Cardinal was the fancy ('official') term; Redbird was the ordinary term; and the old-fashioned ('full') form was Cardinal Redbird. I remember quite a few of these standard+local combinations (although there was no 'dragonfly snake doctor'). Does anybody have others? Dennis Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Jun 1994 to 15 Jun 1994 ************************************************ There are 2 messages totalling 24 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. redbird (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 15:39:00 GMT From: ENG0997[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX2.QUEENS-BELFAST.AC.UK Subject: Re: redbird Redbird, Mike? Has DARE reached ? Or have I missed something? John Kirk The Queen's University of Belfast ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 16 Jun 1994 15:24:40 CDT From: Mike Picone Subject: Re: redbird No, John, you haven't missed a thing. It's my ignorance that's showing here. A-H is still all that's in print, as it turns out. Humbled, Mike ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Jun 1994 to 16 Jun 1994 ************************************************ There is one message totalling 11 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. redbird ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 17 Jun 1994 13:47:57 EDT From: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: redbird Just because DARE has only *published* A-H doesnt mean they dont have secret files on all birds. Perhaps one of our fine feathered friends at 600 North Park Street in Madison will let us into the birdhouse for a preview. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Jun 1994 to 17 Jun 1994 ************************************************ There are 3 messages totalling 65 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Double modals up north. (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 18 Jun 1994 16:33:05 -0500 From: mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Double modals up north. Macomb Illinois is on the same latitudewith Keokuk, Iowa, about 60 miles SW of Peoria. Yesterday a lady came to our house to discuss hanging new wallpaper. She had none of the "South Midland " speech which, I have observed elsewhere, rural people use around here. She coulda been a Peoria native. I did a double take when she said "I might could even put a [border up there]. I bracketed the last part because I wasn't sure about the border part. But the point is, I've always thought the double modal was strictly Southern. Deep, coastal southern. Any other northern attestations? Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jun 1994 09:52:00 +1200 From: "George Halliday (09)483-9039" Subject: Re: Double modals up north. Double Models You might expect double models to appear almost anywhere where there was heavy Scots (including Ulster Scots -Scotch Irish to Americans) settlement. A typical Scots example would be Aa'll no can dae it. - I won't be able to do it. What's the settlement history in her area? George Halliday ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 18 Jun 1994 16:25:23 -0700 From: THOMAS L CLARK Subject: Re: Double modals up north. On Sat, 18 Jun 1994 mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU wrote: > Macomb Illinois is on the same latitudewith Keokuk, Iowa, about 60 miles > SW of Peoria. "I might could even put a [border up > there]. Very common among Ogenites (Utah), and outside of big cities in Utah and Nevada. I worked for the IRS (blush) in the early 1960's at the Western Regional IRS center in Ogden. ALL of the middle-level supervisors used double modals, they were all from the region. Like Tim, I did a double-take when I first heard such. Still do perk up my ears when I hear residents of Nevada using same. Cheers, Thomas L. Clark tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Jun 1994 to 18 Jun 1994 ************************************************ There are 3 messages totalling 77 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Double modals up north. (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 19 Jun 1994 17:09:10 -0500 From: mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Double modals up north. On Sun, 19 Jun 1994, George Halliday (09)483-9039 wrote: > Double Models > > You might expect double models to appear almost anywhere where > there was heavy Scots (including Ulster Scots -Scotch Irish to > Americans) settlement. A typical Scots example would be > > Aa'll no can dae it. - I won't be able to do it. > > What's the settlement history in her area? > Settlement history here is from Ohio, PA, KY, NC, VA, wVA, Tn. Lots of Scotch Irish Ancestry (including two branches of my own family!) Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jun 1994 17:11:29 -0500 From: mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Double modals up north. Y'know, I use these myself sometimes. But I picked it up from reading RAven and other dialectlogists; then I married a southerner. So its semi-deliberate and artificail with me. Tim On Sat, 18 Jun 1994, THOMAS L CLARK wrote: > On Sat, 18 Jun 1994 mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU wrote: > > > Macomb Illinois is on the same latitudewith Keokuk, Iowa, about 60 miles > > SW of Peoria. > > > "I might could even put a [border up > > there]. > > Very common among Ogenites (Utah), and outside of big cities in Utah and > Nevada. I worked for the IRS (blush) in the early 1960's at the Western > Regional IRS center in Ogden. ALL of the middle-level supervisors used > double modals, they were all from the region. Like Tim, I did a > double-take when I first heard such. Still do perk up my ears when I > hear residents of Nevada using same. > Cheers, > Thomas L. Clark > tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 19 Jun 1994 22:55:00 EDT From: "James_C.Stalker" Subject: Re: Double modals up north. Trudgill & Chambers (1991) Dialects of English: Studies in Grammatical Variation. Longman has a nice article by Keith Brown, on the topic under discussion. It seems to be more widespread than might have been assumed. A limited range of double modals was quite common in the Louisville, KY area some 20-25 years ago, although I cannot attest that it is still viable there. Certainly, "might could" and "should ought" were among them. I specify "limited" because the range is not as broad as Brown suggests for Harwick Scots. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Jun 1994 to 19 Jun 1994 ************************************************ There are 6 messages totalling 154 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Double modals up north. 2. needs + p.p. (4) 3. Double modals (in general) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 17:29:00 +1200 From: "George Halliday (09)483-9039" Subject: Re: Double modals up north. Brown's article is on Hawick Scots. There is also an article by the Russian linguist, Scur, on double modals in Scots in Linguistica Hafniensa 11 (1968), in which he draws attention to double modals in some other Germanic languages apart from Scots - the only one I can remember being Afrikaans. The stuff in Brown's article would apply to Scots as a whole, not just the odd dialect. It would pay people interested in Amer. dialects to look closely at Scots - a lot of the features that have been debated for the last 20 years or so = copula omission, be as a finite copula, to be deletion (I want out) - are found in Scots. George Halliday ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 15:49:36 -0400 From: Martha Howard Subject: needs + p.p. Tim Frazer, I read in PADS about your paper on needs + p.p. That usage was one that really bothered my husband and me when we moved to WV from Michigan. Especially when one principal forwhom I worked (in 1950, WVU had a nepotism rule which meant that I could not teach at the university since my husband did. I ended up for six years teaching in ajunior high) told me that my students" lockers needed cleaned. Then we heard our son remark that his hair needed washed. After both his parents exploded, much to the poor child's amazement, it is a wonder he ever washed his hair again. During the teen years I wasn't sure he did. He always wore a baseball cap! Back to the point. In trying to figure out where the usage came from, I isolated it (then) to sw Pa., WV, and areas influenced by Pennsylvania Dutch. In German, the verbe for need--brauchen--is one that does not take the infinitive after it--it takes the past participle. Therefore, I decided in my infinite wisdom that the usage was a transferral of German grammar to English. How's that for what Marckwardt taught us was "folk" etymology! Probably no validity to it at all, but it does sound logical, somehow. Wish I could be in Chicago to hear your paper. Occasionally, I get homesick for the Midwest, esp. Chicago, where I was born. Martha Howard email un106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wvnvaxa.wvnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 17:38:30 -0500 From: mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: needs + p.p. On Mon, 20 Jun 1994, Martha Howard wrote: > Tim Frazer, I read in PADS about your paper on needs + p.p. That usage > was one that really bothered my husband and me when we moved to WV from > Michigan. > Especially when one principal forwhom I worked (in 1950, WVU had a nepotism > rule which meant that I could not teach at the university since my husband > did. I ended up for six years teaching in ajunior high) I'm glad we're rid of those. June and i left Millikin U because they had one & we got married. told me that my > students" lockers needed cleaned. Then we heard our son remark that his > hair needed washed. After both his parents exploded, much to the poor child's > amazement, it is a wonder he ever washed his hair again. During the teen year > I wasn't sure he did. He always wore a baseball cap! Back to the point. In > trying to figure out where the usage came from, I isolated it (then) to sw > Pa., WV, and areas influenced by Pennsylvania Dutch. In German, the verbe > for need--brauchen--is one that does not take the infinitive after it--it > takes the past participle. Therefore, I decided in my infinite wisdom that > the usage was a transferral of German grammar to > English. How's that for what Marckwardt taught us was "folk" etymology! There's been a lot of debate over the German vs. Scotch origin of Midland dialect forms. After Kurath said that "the cat wants in" etc. was from German, someone--I can't remember who--countered pretty convincingly that it had to be Scotch irish. Anyone remember that article? > Probably no validity to it at all, but it does sound logical, somehow. Wish > I could be in Chicago to hear your paper. Occasionally, I get homesick for the > Midwest, esp. Chicago, where I was born. Next best thing is to get a copy of the paper from MMLA (Midwest Modern Language Association); I think the address is in the Newsletter. Al the papers for that conference are distributed out in advance. If you can't get one well send you one next fall. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 19:15:32 EDT From: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Double modals (in general) It's a good thing _American Speech_ Vol 69 No 1 is about to go out in the mail to members of the American Dialect Society! Because its lead article is a most informative study on d.m.'s, or rather "The pragmatics of multiple modal variation in North and South Carolina." The authors Margaret Mishoe and Michael Montgomery. If yall arent yet members of the American Dialect Society and thus are likely to miss this issue, you might could remedy the lack by sending $30 for the year to: Executive Secretary Allan Metcalf - MacMurray College English Dept - Jacksonville Illinois 62650. Or for free I'll send our newsletter with more particulars. - A. M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 14:39:00 +1200 From: "George Halliday (09)483-9039" Subject: Re: needs + p.p. Needs + p.p. Another postively interesting Scoticism I'm sure. In Scotland it is also normal to use the p.p. with wants: It needs washed They want kicked. The pres. part with this is not normal as in English English. Another (but unrelated ) issue is the relative clause strategies that I read somewhere is usual in speech in most of US but not of course in StEng.: The people that their house was burnt down. rather than ...whose house was burnt down. How wide spread is this Rel Cl strategy? George Halliday ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 22:52:22 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: needs + p.p. The people that their house burned down. His grammar -- which I don't know how anybody understands him -- is really bad. (groping for an example here) It seems to me that both 'that' and 'which as unconnected relative pronouns is on the rise. As much a matter of popularity as historical change, I suspect. DMLance ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Jun 1994 to 21 Jun 1994 ************************************************ There are 4 messages totalling 61 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. needs + p.p. (2) 2. which I didn't even see it coming 3. redbird ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 20 Jun 1994 22:59:25 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: needs + p.p. Verb agreement slips are on the rise too. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 16:25:27 GMT+1200 From: Tim Behrend Subject: Re: which I didn't even see it coming My impression for the past 20 years has been that the sort of free-floating relative clauses mentioned by George Halliday and DM Lance today are characteristic of working class urban dialects from the Midwest -- Chicago and Cleveland, for example. They are also prominent, as I recall, in the idiosyncratic linguistic stylings of Damon Runyon, which it's been many years since I read any of his stories. I think of them as verbal footnotes clarifying or adding detail to an idea halfway through its utterance. Tim Behrend Department of Asian Languages University of Auckland ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 05:42:57 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Re: needs + p.p. > Another (but unrelated ) issue is the relative clause strategies that I read > somewhere is usual in speech in most of US but not of course in StEng.: > > The people that their house was burnt down. I don't think I'd call it "usual" -- I've managed to live my whole life without ever having heard it. > rather than ...whose house was burnt down. I haven't heard this either, of course, but not because of the syntax -- because of "burnt" for "burned." :-) --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 21 Jun 1994 13:22:07 CST From: jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: redbird Yes, DARE will have a redbird entry. How can you tell? Look at the entry for cardinal; any name in boldface there will be entered with the definition "=cardinal 1." Although there wasn't a question in our QR that could generate a map for this, our science editor says that her sources show that redbird is definitely a South, South Midland term. Joan Hall ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Jun 1994 ********************************* There are 2 messages totalling 35 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. AmE biblio & address change 2. Double modals up north. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 22 Jun 1994 13:03:55 MET-1 From: "E.W. Schneider" Subject: AmE biblio & address change I had two recent inquiries about my bibliography of American English a preliminary version of which was posted on this list almost two years ago. So, for all those who might be interested, and although this shouldn`t be turned into an adverstising channel, it was published a few months ago. The bibliographic data is: Beat Glauser, Edgar W. Schneider and Manfred Gorlach, A New Bibliography of Writings on Varieties of English 1984-1992/93. Amsterdam, Philadelphia: Benjamins, 1993. (Includes my part I on the USA and Canda, pp. 63-124, with 963 entries - check whether YOUR publication is in!) Also, fo those who know me, please note that my email address has been modified: alf4 has left the earth, and I`m now simply edgar.schneider at sprachlit.(etc. - see signature). Cheers from the Old World! Edgar Edgar.Schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de University of Regensburg, 93040 Regensburg, Germany phone (int. line)-49-941-9433470 fax (int. line)-49-941-9434992 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 22 Jun 1994 21:31:00 EDT From: "James_C.Stalker" Subject: Re: Double modals up north. Sorry about the misspelling. I got a D- in typing. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Jun 1994 to 22 Jun 1994 ************************************************ There are 3 messages totalling 163 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. which I didn't even see it coming 2. 5.736 Qs: Forensic ling, Endangered lang, Dialect, St. Louis 3. Double modals up north. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 07:58:20 -0500 From: mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: which I didn't even see it coming Just 3 days ago I heard a cluase like the above (re:). It was used by a 38 year old woman who grew up in Michiga(Troy) but who has lived in cetral Illinois for 17 years. Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 27 Jun 1994 13:03:59 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: 5.736 Qs: Forensic ling, Endangered lang, Dialect, St. Louis On the off chance that none of you (of the relevant subset of you) noticed Carol Tenny's query below, can someone enlighten her on where to go (other than 'western Pennsylvania') for more on 'needs washed'? It must be in the air lately. --Larry ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- LINGUIST List: Vol-5-736. Sun 26 Jun 1994. ISSN: 1068-4875. Lines: 101 Subject: 5.736 Qs: Forensic ling, Endangered lang, Dialect, St. Louis Moderators: Anthony Rodrigues Aristar: Texas A&M U. Helen Dry: Eastern Michigan U. Asst. Editors: Ron Reck -------------------------Directory------------------------------------- 1) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 94 14:33:26 MST From: Mary Ellen Ryder Subject: Forensic linguistics 2) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 1994 07:17:08 -0700 (MST) From: CINDYNG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Query...endangered languages 3) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 1994 12:26:54 -0400 From: "Carol L. Tenny" Subject: Query: a syntax dialect 4) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 1994 21:21:12 -0500 (CDT) From: adele[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]twinearth.wustl.edu (Adele Abrahamsen) Subject: Linguists in St. Louis -------------------------Messages-------------------------------------- 1) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 94 14:33:26 MST From: Mary Ellen Ryder Subject: Forensic linguistics Some time ago there was mention on the net of both an association and a journal of forensic linguistics. Unfortunately I made no note of the details. Could someone please fill me in again? Many thanks! -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 2) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 1994 07:17:08 -0700 (MST) From: CINDYNG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU Subject: Query...endangered languages Apologies for cluttering up the net with a request...I believe it was on the linguist net that I read a posting regarding grants available for the study of endangered languages...an e-mail address was posted however, I can't seem to get through using the address...I would appreciate it if someone could provide me with the proper e-mail address....send replies to me directly.. Thank you in advance Cindy Neuroth-Gimbrone, University of Arizona internet: cindyng[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 3) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 1994 12:26:54 -0400 From: "Carol L. Tenny" Subject: Query: a syntax dialect Does anybody know of any work that has been done on the syntax of a dialect spoken in Western Pennsylvania, in which one can say "The car needs washed?" Carol Tenny University of Pittsbugh Department of Linguistics CL-2816 Pittsburgh PA 15260 tenny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pogo.isp.pitt.edu -------------------------------------------------------------------------- 4) Date: Wed, 22 Jun 1994 21:21:12 -0500 (CDT) From: adele[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]twinearth.wustl.edu (Adele Abrahamsen) Subject: Linguists in St. Louis This summer I will begin directing the linguistics program at Washington University, and I am interested in making contact with linguists in or near St. Louis. I'd appreciate any leads--please reply to adele[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]twinearth.wustl.edu. Thanks. -- Adele Abrahamsen Department of Psychology Washington University in St. Louis Campus Box 1125 One Brookings Drive St. Louis, MO 63130-4899 Email: adele[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]twinearth.wustl.edu (314) 935-6565 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- LINGUIST List: Vol-5-736. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 26 Jun 1994 15:26:30 -700 From: Warren Keith Russell Subject: Re: Double modals up north. On Sat, 18 Jun 1994, THOMAS L CLARK wrote: > On Sat, 18 Jun 1994 mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU wrote: > > "I might could even put a [border up > > there]. > > Very common among Ogenites (Utah), and outside of big cities in Utah and > Nevada. I worked for the IRS (blush) in the early 1960's at the Western > Regional IRS center in Ogden. ALL of the middle-level supervisors used > double modals, they were all from the region. Like Tim, I did a > double-take when I first heard such. Still do perk up my ears when I > hear residents of Nevada using same. Sorry to jump in so late, but I had to say something about this. I first heard this usage at the University of Illinois. It sounded really "strange" to me at the time, and, I think, is still very much a marked form for me. That's why I was so surprised to see Thomas's claim that double modals are common in Utah. I went to school in Provo for three years in the late '60's, and moved back here 13 years ago. Granted, this isn't Ogden (about an hour and a half away), but I have never heard the "natives" here use them. Hmmmm.... Keith Russell wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]us.dynix.com ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Jun 1994 to 27 Jun 1994 ************************************************ There are 4 messages totalling 78 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Double modals in Utah (4) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 14:09:21 MDT From: Marianna Di Paolo Subject: Double modals in Utah Tom Clark forwarded the message from Keith Russell to me in which he commented on Tom's claim that Ogdenites used double modals. The first one I may have ever heard in Utah may have been from a student from Ogden. I have noted many others since then. I would be VERY surprised if natives of Utah Valley (as opposed to all the out-of-state students at BYU) did not use DMs. But I am not in Salt Lake City now (I am at Bryn Mawr for an institute) and can't check my folder in which I collect slips of paper of Utah DMs until late July. In any case, I think that there are several Utah double modals in one of the footnotes to my AmSp article on DMs. Marianna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 14:23:06 -700 From: Warren Keith Russell Subject: Re: Double modals in Utah On Wed, 29 Jun 1994, Marianna Di Paolo wrote: > Tom Clark forwarded the message from Keith Russell to me in which he > commented on Tom's claim that Ogdenites used double modals. The first > one I may have ever heard in Utah may have been from a student from > Ogden. I have noted many others since then. I would be VERY > surprised if natives of Utah Valley (as opposed to all the > out-of-state students at BYU) did not use DMs. But I am not in Salt > Lake City now (I am at Bryn Mawr for an institute) and can't check my > folder in which I collect slips of paper of Utah DMs until late July. > In any case, I think that there are several Utah double modals in one > of the footnotes to my AmSp article on DMs. Thanks for the information, Marianna. I guess I'll have to listen _extra_ hard now 8-). Do you remember specifically which double modals you encountered, so I can better focus my listening? Keith Russell wkr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]us.dynix.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 10:27:22 GMT+1200 From: Tim Behrend Subject: Re: Double modals in Utah One double modal that Keith Russel has certainly heard on numerous occassions is found in a frequently quoted LDS scripture, from the Book of Mormon, I think: "It must needs be that there is opposition in all things." I'm not sure of the wording, but it goes something along those lines. The important part is the -must needs- double modal. My recollection is that this locution is quite productive as a speech model in the formal register employed during sermons, lessons, and similar narrational situations. My sense is that this is true not only in Utah sub-dialects, but in LDS speech patterns around the country generally. Tim Behrend Asian Languages and Literatures University of Auckland ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 29 Jun 1994 17:36:34 -0500 From: mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Double modals in Utah thats an interesting locution. wonder how others would analyze it. tim frazer ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Jun 1994 to 29 Jun 1994 ************************************************ There are 2 messages totalling 43 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Double modals in Utah (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 1 Jul 1994 06:42:00 +1200 From: "George Halliday (09)483-9039" Subject: Re: Double modals in Utah Need as a modal Grammatically modals are marked by their morphology - one feature of which is the lack of the -s 3rd person marker so needs doesn't look like a modal here. There is also the possible contamination by the idiomatic "needs be when the devil drives" where needs is a noun. George Halliday m ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 30 Jun 1994 18:04:15 CST From: salikoko mufwene Subject: Re: Double modals in Utah In Message Fri, 1 Jul 1994 06:42:00 +1200, "George Halliday 09483-9039" writes: >Need as a modal > >Grammatically modals are marked by their morphology - one feature of >which is the lack of the -s 3rd person marker so needs doesn't look >like a modal here. How do you handle "modal" uses of "be," as in "He is/was to come" and of "have," as in "She has to go?" Or should we treat these as "exceptions?" Does the alternation "He need not consider such examples"/"He does not need to consider ..." bear on your conclusion? I assume the part of your statement before the morphological evidence from English is only about English. Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene Linguistics, U. of Chicago s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Jun 1994 to 30 Jun 1994 ************************************************ .