Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1993 09:24:31 EDT From: Alphonse Vinh VINH%YALEVM.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: your mail My gratitude goes to Bob Howren for his information. I sure will look up that O uter Banks article. At the moment I am still gathering names of specialists on Tidewater, East Carolina, and Low Country dialects, and would be grateful for f urther news from anyone out there in lingualand. Speaking of the East Carolina speech, would anyone like to comment on the use of "won't" as in "it won't me?" Outside of East Carolina, has anyone heard that term used by native speakers in other parts of Dixie? --Alphonse Vinh Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1993 09:01:45 MDT From: Ron Southerland southerl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACS.UCALGARY.CA Subject: won't contraction of was not Having grown up in (south)eastern North Carolina, I can certainly attest to the existence of this curious contraction. 'I went to see Jim but he won't there.' I think LAMSAS has already noted such usages as 'fair off' (for 'clear off' -- a cloudy (or rainy) day becoming sunny) which are largely limited to esastern NC. One odd expression which I alwyas use when I'm in NC but cannot use elswhere is -- 'get up with'. I remember referring to my PhD supervisor at Penn as being 'hard to get up with'. My fellow students (from the northeastern US mainly) couldn't process this at all. I had to explain that I was having trouble making contact with the guy. Needless to say, 'get up with' doesn't have much resonance here in western Canada, either. Ron Southerland Linguistics Calgary Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1993 13:05:00 EDT From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: your mail There is no such thing as 'It won't me' for 'It wasn't me.' There is a pronunciation of 'I wasn't me' which sounds like 'It won't me' (to a nonlinguist I guess), but it is the result of regular phonological matters which are common in many parts of the South. The facts are these: /z/ --- /d/ before a following /n/ (in a following unstressed syllable). Therefore, 'isn't' --- 'idn't'; 'business' ---? 'bidness.' In the nest step the 'd' completely assimmilates to the following /n/; therefore, 'wadn't' --- 'wan't.' Finally, since the 'caret' (the vowel in 'fun' etc...) is tenser and more retracted in many varieties, it might strike some as an /o/ (or 'open 'o''). The point of all this is that there is no lexical confusion here at all; only well-known, widespread phonological stuff at work. Dennis Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1993 13:28:00 MST From: BBOLING%UNMB.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: whitlow Does anyone know the form "whetin" as a variant of "whitlow" (swelling and inflammation of a finger joint; other variants--among many: whittle, whuttle)? I have collected the variant "whetin" from a Hiberno-English dialect of west Co. Tyrone, Northern Ireland, and I wonder whether it occurs in American English dialects spoken in areas settled by emigrants from Ulster. Bruce D. Boling University of New Mexico Date: Tue, 1 Jun 1993 14:29:53 CDT From: Salikoko Mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: your mail As a rejoinder to Dennis Preston, doesn't a glottal stop sometimes substitute for /d/ in the /z/~/d/ alternation? I have been convinced it often does and thus could account for the problem here... but don't trust my nonnative perception. Salikoko Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1993 06:39:13 +0501 From: Robert Howren howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GIBBS.OIT.UNC.EDU Subject: [wont] in Carolina I must respectfully differ with Dennis Preston in his categorical claim that [wont] for "wasn't" doesn't exist in eastern NC. The vowel in this contraction is (1) pronounced as a close -- not open -- "o"; and (2) it is, to my ear (I consider myself a competent phonetician and linguist), essentially identical to the vowel of "want," which is in this area frequently homophonous with "won't." I agree with Dennis's explanation of the derivation of [wont] from [wadnt], however. Bob Howren (r_howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unc.edu) Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1993 10:19:50 MDT From: Ron Southerland southerl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACS.UCALGARY.CA Subject: Further to 'won't wasn't' A follow-up to my own and others' postings on 'won't wasn't'. Despite the certitude of Dennis.Preston 22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.BITNET as to the nonexistence of this contraction, it is alive and well in eastern NC. There is also another contraction of wasn't (used by different folks from those who say 'won't'). Within the limits of available ascii it's [wV?n] -- where 'V' = wedge, '?' = glottal stop and the 'n' is syllabic. Same thing happens with 'isn't' -- [I?n]. All of these exist in eastern (at least southeastern) NC. The vowel in 'won't wasn't' is, incidentally, phonetically exactly the same as that in 'bone, loan, etc.' -- as these are pronounced in southeastern NC, that is. That vowel (diphthong) is characteristically different from the analogous segment in any other dialect of English I know of. It's a little like what one hears in the Philadelphia area but with a higher nucleus I think.c Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1993 14:25:00 EDT From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: [wont] in Carolina Someone is not reading my mail carefully. I did not claim that something which sounds exactly like 'won't' was not used for 'wasn't' in North Carolina (and many other parts of the South). In fact, I pointed out how that arose phonologically. What I did claim was that the lexical item 'won't' was not used to replace wasn't, which seemed to be the early (silly) claim. Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1993 14:34:00 EDT From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Further to 'won't wasn't' I will bother with this once more. Of course peolple all over the South are saying things like [w^dn] and .[w^n] and [wodn] and [won] and [wont] for 'wasn't.' I still (with great certitude) claim that no-one in the South or anywheres uses the lexical item 'won't' for wasn't. I am still puzzled that anyopne who read my phonological derivation of [wont] like forms from 'wasn't' could have misunderstood me. Dennis Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet Date: Wed, 2 Jun 1993 15:44:45 EDT From: Alphonse Vinh VINH%YALEVM.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: Further to 'won't wasn't' I fully agree with Dennis. "won't" is a phonological matter not a grammatical one. As a Southerner I say [wadn] or [idn] rather than [wasn't] or [isn't]. I initially brought up the word [won't] because I think the pronunciation is unique to Eastern Carolina. --Alphonse Vinh Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1993 09:11:10 EDT From: Ellen Johnson ATLAS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: Further to 'won't wasn't' Never having lived in the North, I'd like to get some feedback from those of you who do concerning [wadnt]. In fast or casual speech do Northerners really use [z]? Perhaps the difference is one of degree rather than qualitative difference. Here in Georgia, the [d] or [?] is part of the regional standard speech. I only use [z] in the most careful speech situations, usually with educated or non-Southern strangers. It almost has the status of a spelling pronunciation. I'm interested in finding out how widespread this is. Somehow I suspect it's not limited to the South, as previous messages on this topic seem to assume. By the way, I just read a message elsewhere with the topic identified as: "Your work in Ex-Yugoslavia". Ellen JOhnson atlas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1993 09:31:47 EDT From: Alphonse Vinh VINH%YALEVM.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: Further to 'won't wasn't' As a Southerner living in Northern exile I get plenty of opportunities to hear Yankee dialects. I have lived in every region of the United States save the Pacific Northwest and everywhere I hear Northerners say [wasznt]. We Southerners usually drop the [z] sound in contractions such as [idn't], [didn't], [wadn't]. In conjunction with this is a Southern tendency to soften the [t] pronunciation in words. My Canadian grandmother corrects me on the telephone whenever I say [Etlanna] for [At-lan-ta]. It idn't in me to pronounce those hard [t] sounds. Another thing I've noticed about the Southern New England accent of working class people...In Dixie we say [you all] or [yall] when we are addressing more than one person or when we are addressing a person who stands in for a non-present group, I have heard native speakers in New Haven, Connecticut say [youse] to mean yall. And all this time I had believed this was only Bronxspeak or Jimmy Cagney/Edward G. Robinson dialect. --Alphonse Vinh Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1993 09:28:42 -0400 From: "J. Chambers" chambers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPAS.UTORONTO.CA Subject: Labov, Yaeger & Steiner Tom Veatch cited Labov, Yaeger & Steiner recently and that made me think that people on the ADS-List might like to know that it has been reprinted (finally). It's identical to the 1st printing, and it costs $25 from the Linguistics Lab, U of Penn, 619 Williams Hall, Phila PA 19104. This is an unsolicited commercial announcement, but I was overjoyed to find out it was avbailable again (I found out by acident) and esp. pleased to replace the 1976 phtocopy of a photocopy made on an English machine that was mainly grey on grey. --Jack Chambers Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1993 10:13:00 EST From: ALICE FABER FABER%LENNY[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VENUS.YCC.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Further to 'won't wasn't' In response to Ellen Johnson's query, I can't imagine circumstances (other than, perhaps, recent dental anesthesia!) in which I WOUDN'T pronounce wasn't, isn't hasn't etc. with a clear [z]. I grew up in the NY metropolitan area, and when I moved to Texas and first heard pronunciations like [Idnt], I believed they were a deliberate use of a baby talk form, for purposes of cuteness (?), until classmates put me straight. Alice Faber Faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Yalehask.bitnet Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1993 11:29:28 -0400 From: "Philip Hiscock, MUN Folklore & Language Archive" philiph[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KEAN.UCS.MUN.CA Subject: Re: Further to 'won't wasn't' Ellen Johnson ATLAS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET says: Never having lived in the North, I'd like to get some feedback from those of you who do concerning [wadnt]. In fast or casual speech do Northerners really use [z]? Perhaps the difference is one of degree rather than qualitative difference. Here in Georgia, the [d] or [?] is part of the regional standard speech. I only use [z] in the most careful speech situations, usually with educated or non-Southern strangers. It almost has the status of a spelling pronunciation. I'm interested in finding out how widespread this is. Somehow I suspect it's not limited to the South, as previous messages on this topic seem to assume. Here in Newfoundland I hear [wVzn?] (where V is the unround, sometimes rounded stressed vowel whose IPA symbol is - an upsiddown V) in normal, uncareful speech. It is not a 'careful' form; nor is [wVznt] for many speakers. It is often heard reduced to something like [wV:n] with or without a glottal stop at the end. Because there is a lot of rounding on central vowels here, I have sometimes heard the V or V: raised a little to the usually short, unstressed, round vowel near [u] - that's the vowel whose IPA symbol is now a round w with a roof, and in my dialect the sound in roof. Thus students, when transcribing speech in 'normal' orthography, sometimes write what should be "wasn't" as "wouldn't", a perfect homonym in their dialect. -Philip Hiscock MUN Folklore & Language Archive philiph[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kean.ucs.mun.ca Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1993 16:15:00 EDT From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: Further to 'won't wasn't' As a 'wadn't,' 'idn't,' bidness' speaker I sympathize with Ellen Johnson's incredulity thatNortherners would not follow this amazingly simple procedure for the pronunciation of these items (at least when they were relaxed, informal, and the like, but they do not. Nobody around me in Michigan (with the exception, of course, of African-Americans and the large displaced South Midland population brought here to work in the failed US auto industry, but all these speakers have their pronunciation rooted in the South.Even my MIlwaukee wife (whom I have had one or two oportunities to see in a casual speech mode) never makes this elegant and reasonable adjustment. Dennis [dInIs] Preston Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1993 15:40:45 CST From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: DINIS Speaking, as dInIs preston just did, about the pronunciation of our name, I must admit that it took me a long time to realize people saying Dinnis instead of Dennis were talking to me when I hit central Illinois after growing up with the rarefied speech of Queens, NY. I have since learned to repronounce my surname, abandoning a very low /a/ for a much exaggerated /ae/ so now it sounds like Bair-on, otherwise nobody around here understands me. But my best north/south dialect clash story comes from a question a linguist friend from New Orleans, also landlocked in central Illinois, once asked. It was a question she in her self-conscious r-lessness had been saving till she met a sympathetic Yankee linguist. "Hweah," she asked me, "oh, hweah is the ah in Hahvahd?" To which I replied without missing a beat (one of the few times in my life I got a line off right), "You're not gonna believe this, but they is two of 'em." Adding, to her relief, that Bostonians often posed the same question she had. Or should I of said, axed? Dennis (Baron) -- debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu (\ 217-333-2392 \'\ fax: 217-333-4321 Dennis Baron \'\ ____________ Department of English / '| ()___________) University of Illinois \ '/ \ ~~~~~~~~~ \ 608 South Wright St. \ \ ~~~~~~~~~ \ Urbana, IL 61801 ==). \ __________\ (__) ()___________) Date: Thu, 3 Jun 1993 20:18:07 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: Further to 'won't wasn't' Rudy Troike, Chair of English at U Arizona, several years ago did some research on the -d- in 'wadn't' 'idn't' etc. And I think he published an article, but I'm not free to break away from my own stuff and look it up right now. DMLance Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1993 08:28:48 EDT From: Bill Kretzschmar WAKJENGL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: Further to 'won't wasn't' The Troike article Don Lance mentioned is in JEngL 19 (1986), 177-205, and is called "McDavid's Law". There was a more recent paper on the subject at the LAVIS II conference in Auburn by Natalie Estes, of North Carolina State. Has anybody heard from Bruce Southard on the point; he is now at East Carolina (though I don't know if he is on the net) and has done some work on their local speech. Bill Kretzschmar 706-542-2246 University of Georgia FAX 706-542-2181 Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1993 07:53:07 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Further to 'won't wasn't' Has anybody heard from Bruce Southard on the point; he is now at East Carolina (though I don't know if he is on the net) and has done some work on their local speech. On the net and on this list. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1993 09:30:12 EDT From: Ellen Johnson ATLAS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: Further to 'won't wasn't' Dental anesthesia indeed! OK, I guess I've shown my provincial bias. The [wadnt] pronunciation is below the level of conscious awareness of speakers here (previously including myself) so I had never paid attention to it in other places. I wonder if it will become stigmatized as more Yankees infiltrate the "Sun Belt", since it is apparently quite noticeable to many who responded. Thanks for clearing that up. Has anyone ever heard of "lisom molasses"? We received a query about it with a citation from South Carolina that mentioned it's use with lemons as a remedy for whooping cough. Ellen Johnson atlas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga Date: Fri, 4 Jun 1993 09:44:02 -0400 From: Bruce Southard ENSOUTHA%ECUVM1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: Further to 'won't wasn't' Since Bill Kretzschmar mentioned me, I thought that I would stop lurking in the background and add that 'won't' is still found in eastern NC. As Bill pointed out, Natalie Estes' LAVIS II paper "Evidence and Argument in the Development of Prenazal [z]-- [d]" contains a number of good examples. Natalie also points out that 1st and 3rd person "weren't" is common as well in Ocracoke. She notes that phonological processes can also lead that form to become "wa'nt". Thus, there may be two possible origins for the form under discussion. Regards, Bruce Southard English Department, East Carolina University ensoutha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecuvm1.bitnet Date: Sat, 5 Jun 1993 10:15:00 EDT From: "James_C.Stalker" STALKER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU Subject: Re: Further to 'won't wasn't' Two brief comments. I grew up across the river from Dinis, but my distribution of /Iznt/~/Idnt/ and /wVdnt/~/wVznt/ varies from his somewhat. I have both, but they seem to be distributed by formality, the /d/ variety in casual, the /z/ in more careful "stranger" talk. Of course, having now lived in Wisconsin and Michigan for the past 24 years, I've probably been corrupted and the /z/ is creeping into my casual speech. Re: "won't" for "wasn't". When I lived in Chapel Hill, I worked with a "won't" speaker. Although I can't recall the details of his dialect after 20 some odd years, I do recall that other aspects of his dialect led me to assume that his "won't" was derived from "weren't." Dennis's derivation clearly gets us to "won't, but I would like to hear more about the r-less derivation. Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1993 22:34:00 EDT From: "James_C.Stalker" STALKER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU Subject: /hw/~/w/ This seems to have been a persistent problem over the years, and the demise of /hw/ has been predicted for quite some time it seems. Herewith a couple of quotations to indicate the longevity of the variation. "But there is one defect which more generally prevails in the counties than any other, and indeed is daily gaining ground amongst the politer part of the world, I mean the omission of the aspirate in many words by some, and in most by others. . . .For not only certain words have a peculiar energy, but several emotions of the mind are strongly marked, by this method of shooting out the words (if I may be allowed the expression) with the full force of the breath. As in exclamations what! when? where? why? how! hark! hist! -- In the words hard, harsh, heave, hurt, whirl, whisper, whistle." Thomas Sheridan, A Course of Lectures on Elocution, 1762. "The aspirate h is often sunk, particularly in the capital, where we do not find the least distinction of sound between "while" and "wile," "whet" and "wet," "where" and "were" &c." John Walker, A Critical Pronouncing Dictionary, 1791. stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1993 08:53:01 -0400 From: meyer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMBSKY.CC.UMB.EDU Subject: Corpus of Spoken American English We are presently putting together a million word corpus of spoken American English and were wondering whether there were any ADS members who would be interested in helping us collect various kinds of spoken English from different regions of the country. We want the corpus to be as regionally and ethnically diverse as possible, but we are logistically constrained from sending research assistants around the country to collect different varieties of speech. We are interested in collecting the following kinds of broadcast English (particularly radio and television programs that are locally produced): interviews/discussions call-in shows news broadcasts demonstrations speeches sports commentaries (e.g. broadcasts of baseball games, local tennis matches) city council meetings, school board meetings, etc. (i.e. anything broadcast over local access cable channels) If you can help us out, all you have to do is: 1) Tape the entire program (commercials and all) 2) Use as good a recorder as possible and a Cr02 90 minute cassette (we'll send you a blank replacement cassette; also, video cassettes are fine too) 3) Mail Charles Meyer the tape along with the name and phone number of the station the program was broadcast on (we will need this information in order to obtain copyright release) We're also collecting face-to-face conversations, so if you have good recording equipment (particularly a good microphone), let us know and we'll forward tapes and consent forms. If you have any questions, please feel free to contact one of us. Thanks for your help. Jack Du Bois Charles Meyer Linguistics Dept. English Dept. University of California UMass-Boston Santa Barbara, CA 93106 Boston, MA 02125 (805) 893-3776 (617) 287-6748 dubois[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]humanitas.ucsb.edu meyer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cs.umb.edu Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1993 12:58:00 CST From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU Subject: Ellen Johnson's address please Ellen, I have some material on _ocean_, but have misplaced your email address. shall I send it snail mail? beth blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu Date: Thu, 10 Jun 1993 15:13:40 EDT From: Ellen Johnson ATLAS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: Ellen Johnson's address please Beth (et al.), My address is Dept. of English 254 Park Hall, UGA Athens, Ga. 30602 atlas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga That is, until July 8, when I leave for Chile, where I'll be teaching through December. My mail will be forwarded, but it may not be too reliable. If something gets returned to you try the alternate address 111 McNeal Rd. Hoschton, Ga. 30548 I will be at the Universidad Arturo Prat in Iquique for a month, then at the Universidad de Chile in Santiago. Thanks for the info on fresh-water oceans. Ellen Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1993 10:20:32 -700 From: Warren Keith Russell keru[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CPU.US.DYNIX.COM Subject: ISO STANDARDS Does anyone know where I can get copies of ISO-8859-1 and ISO-8859-2? We are adding multilingual capabilities to our software, and I understand these include 256-byte character sets for supporting the major languages. This may not be the most appropriate forum for such a request, but I have not been able to find any other linguistics-related mail lists on the Internet. Is anyone aware of any? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Keith Russell Dynix Library Systems, Provo, Utah, U.S.A. keru[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cpu.us.dynix.com or keru[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]devg.us.dynix.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 Jun 1993 13:24:44 -0400 From: Cathy Ball CBALL%GUVAX.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: ISO STANDARDS Keith - there are lots of linguistics-related mail lists on the internet!! I can send you a list if you like - it includes LINGUIST, CORPORA, NL-KR ... Anyhow, a good place to get an answer to your question would be on the Text Encoding Initiative list (TEI-L), though questions about language and software will also get responses on HUMANIST and NL-KR. Let me know if you'd like a list of these with directions - I can e-mail you a handout I give to the linguistics students. -- Cathy Ball (Georgetown) Date: Mon, 14 Jun 1993 21:14:13 -0600 From: Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU Subject: do borders matter? Most studies of American dialects I've seen assume that the northern ones stop at the Canadian border. How accurate is this? Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu Date: Tue, 15 Jun 1993 20:01:00 -0400 From: "Terry Pratt, UPEI" TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA Subject: Re: do borders matter? In Atlantic Canada, very accurate. Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 19:58:00 EDT From: "James_C.Stalker" STALKER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU Subject: corn meal mush Did any of yall, you guys, youns, yous, depending on where you now live, eat this particular food, and if so, would you please describe what you ate and how it was prepared, or as I would say, how it was fixed. Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 20:01:00 EDT From: "James_C.Stalker" STALKER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU Subject: follow-up to corn meal mush Sorry, I forgot that not all of you get headers that reveal where the message originated. I asked about corn meal mush. JCStalker stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu or stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.bitnet Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1993 10:05:13 EST From: "Warren A. Brewer" NCUT054%TWNMOE10.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Corn meal mush RE: Corn meal mush Back when my family had meatless Fridays, my mother used to make a pan of corn bread, which was put in a bowl of warm milk. Itar seemed somewhat penitential, but mm-mmh-good. I guess it was called corn meal mush; but for me, that's the only function of corn bread anyway, so I just call it corn bread. Warren A. Brewer Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 21:38:18 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Corn Meal Mush The question about corn meal mush sounded like a good topic for WORDS-L, a list always eager to discuss food. So I sent this posting to the list: Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 19:06:10 -0500 Sender: English Language Discussion Group WORDS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Corn Meal Mush? Somebody on another list just asked whether anybody was familiar with corn meal mush. Sounds like a WORDS-L question to me. Are you? I'm not. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) Here's one answer to it, forwarded to ADS-L with permission: Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 21:35:04 EDT Sender: English Language Discussion Group WORDS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu From: Frank ST403231[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU Subject: Re: Corn Meal Mush? To: Multiple recipients of list WORDS-L WORDS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Natalie, I'm surprised. And you call yourself southern? ;-) My mother (from Florida) fixed me some corn meal mush once or twice for breakfast. The theory is similar to that of making grits; you boil the stuff in enough liquid to make a cereal out of it. Except here the main ingredient is not hominy but corn meal. Mom says that you let the leftover corn meal mush sit in the pan, then slice it into pieces and fry it for the next day's breakfast. Tried that too. Of the two cereal products under discussion, Mom and I both vastly prefer grits. With a little butter and salt. We add a dash of pepper, too. But butter and salt is the way we prefer to eat Cream of Wheat as well. (For Carolyn and Akio and other gleaners, C of W is the name of the most popular brand of hot cereal made from farina.) Frank, ersatz Yankee --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1993 05:43:17 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: More Replies re Corn Meal Mush Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1993 23:18:24 -0500 Sender: English Language Discussion Group WORDS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu From: Doris Smith dorisann[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TENET.EDU Subject: Re: Corn Meal Mush? To: Multiple recipients of list WORDS-L WORDS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu [...] When I was a child and stayed with a great-aunt and g-uncle, my aunt would many times cook what she called "fried mush" for breakfast. I remember that she cooked the stuff (looked like grits to me) in a saucepan, stirring almost constantly. When the stuff in the pan was the consistancy she wanted it to be, she would pour it into a loaf pan, where it would stay until the following morning. She would then slice it - about as thick as a piece of bread - and fry it until it was lightly browned. It was good eaten "as is" or with syrup or with butter. I've never seen it anywhere except in my Aunt Catherine's kitchen. doris Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1993 04:14:43 GMT Sender: English Language Discussion Group WORDS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu From: Neal Traven traven[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PITT.EDU Subject: Re: Corn Meal Mush? To: Multiple recipients of list WORDS-L WORDS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Frank (ST403231[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BROWNVM.BROWN.EDU) wrote: : My mother (from Florida) fixed me some corn meal mush once or : twice for breakfast. The theory is similar to that of making : grits; you boil the stuff in enough liquid to make a cereal : out of it. Except here the main ingredient is not hominy but : corn meal. If you want to get real chic , you can call your cornmeal mush 'polenta.' : Mom says that you let the leftover corn meal mush sit in the : pan, then slice it into pieces and fry it for the next day's : breakfast. Tried that too. This is done with polenta as well. I like my fried cornmeal mush with lots of butter and maple syrup. *Real* maple syrup. I like leftover Cream of Wheat this way also. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- neal traven+[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pitt.edu You're only young once, but you can be traven[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vms.cis.pitt.edu immature forever. -- Larry Andersen --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1993 09:42:00 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: And More On Corn Meal Mush Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1993 08:48:59 EDT Sender: English Language Discussion Group WORDS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu From: Paul Barfoot PBARFOOT%SUVM.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Breakfast etc. To: Multiple recipients of list WORDS-L WORDS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu I've never lived in the South but I love grits (I also like potatoes for bkfst). My all time favorite bkfst, however, is kippers on toast. As for cornmeal mush, the way I make it is to put yellow corn meal and some water in a pan and cook it slowly over a pan of boiling water until it softens. The consistency is somewhat stiffer than grits. It's great on a cold morning (with real butter and real maple syrup). Folks in this area have been eating maple and corn together for 1000 years. I think I may have asked this here before (a couple years ago), but does anyone outside of Central New York know about salt potatoes (small potatoes cooked in brine until they are crusted with salt on the outside - must be served with lots of cold beer)? Br Paul --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1993 16:24:26 GMT From: Michael Everson EVERSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IRLEARN.UCD.IE Subject: Attn: Listowners Bernard Comrie and I are maintaining a list of lists specifically oriented toward various languages. I will be forwarding this to the LINGUIST list (linguist[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tamvm1) and will forward it to your list as well for the interest of your readers. If you do not want me to post this to your list, please tell me by 23 June. If you are not a listowner and would like to receive a copy of the list (in case it's not posted to your list), please subscribe to Linguist. Thanks, Michael Everson School of Architecture, UCD; Richview, Clonskeagh; Dublin 14; E/ire Phone: +353 1 706-2745 Fax: +353 1 283-8908 Home: +353 1 478-2597 Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1993 14:06:07 EST From: Boyd Davis FEN00BHD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU Subject: Re: corn meal mush Louisville area in 50s; my grandmother fixed it the night before (descriptions from Words-L tell how), fried it in the morning, served with maple syrup. I did not know that 'mush' had the prefix 'corn meal' until now, and was very surprised the first time I ordered polenta to find out it was quite similar. (But then, I didn't know that 'hominy' and 'hominy grits' were different, either --) Boyd Davis fen00bhd at unccvm.uncc.edu PS James, where'd you go to hschool? Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1993 17:04:00 EDT From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR%MSU.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: corn meal mush Although my parents were from southern Illinois, I didn't eat no corn meal mush at home or at any friends house neither -- Louisville, KY area 1940-63. Dennis (no mush) Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu,bitnet Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1993 23:30:08 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: corn meal mush I don't remember how my mother made cornmeal mush, but I very clearly remember thinking, when I was in the first grade, that it was the hot breakfast cereal that poor people ate. Others would talk about oatmeal and I didn't know exactly what it was except that kids who didn't wear hand-me- down clothes talked about eating it. I think Mother simply put some salt, maybe a pinch of sugar, some butter or cream in with the meal (which was from corn we'd taken to have ground, general- ly) and cooked it in an open stewpan till it was ready to eat. My mother was born in southwestern Arkansas from South Midlanders (names: Miller, Ralls, Nelson, Martin) who over several generations made their way from the Carolinas to Arkansas -- Millers through Alabama, Rallses through Missouri. DMLance, U of MO Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1993 09:11:00 EDT From: "James_C.Stalker" STALKER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU Subject: Re: corn meal mush Thanks for the replies. I was curious because I only had the concoction at my grandmother's. She did generally call it 'mush' without the 'corn meal', but did use both terms. I was wondering whether she made it from grits rather than corn meal because her mush was white, which would suggest either grits or white corn meal as the original ingredient. As is clear with the other messages, mush certainly went a long way. We ate it as a breakfast cereal and then again sliced and fried. Is there anything else to fry stuff in but bacon grease? All this mushing about would have been going on in the late 40s. And indeed, in KY at that time, I assumed that mush was socioeconomically graded. Poor kids ate it, and because of that, my mother never fixed it. Cod liver oil she would give us, but not mush. stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1993 12:14:00 EDT From: "James_C.Stalker" STALKER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU Subject: receipt for corn meal mush I checked my cookbooks to see if any of them had a recipe for cmm. None of my Southern cookbooks do, but The Joy of Cooking does, for any of you who might want to try this rarified dish. Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1993 12:42:50 EST From: Boyd Davis FEN00BHD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU Subject: Re: receipt for corn meal mush I'm still mulling over the socioeconomics of cornmeal mush and wondering at what point do we conflate rurality and socioec. While they may often be the same, there's no guarantee -- for example, I'm sure I ate cornmeal mush in the late 40s in Ky on my grandparents' dairy farm (below Valley Station, outside of Louisville) but don't remember it until the early 50s. Mush was two things: something to use up extra corn/grits AND something that you could eat if you didn't have anything else. So it could indicate surplus of produce as well as undersupply. I expect that mush probably is a socio-ec 'index' -- and wonder if the liver-mush so popular in this area of N.C. may also be. I note that it is carried in the fancy as well as the cut-rate groceries, but is made almost exclusively by one particular company (in what used to be a small, rural town in the state). Would 'scrapple' (which I've never eaten) be a similar socioec indicator up nawth? I'm musing over projections, atti- tudes, correlations -- Boyd Davis fen00bhd at unccvm.uncc.edu Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1993 15:01:00 EST From: ALICE FABER FABER%LENNY[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VENUS.YCC.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: receipt for corn meal mush Would 'scrapple' (which I've never eaten) be a similar socioec indicator up nawth? I'm musing over projections, atti- tudes, correlations -- Boyd Davis fen00bhd at unccvm.uncc.edu Well when the LSA was in Philadelphia, the hotel restaurant had scrapple on the breakfast menu as an alternative to bacon, ham, or sausage. It's obviously an acquired taste, and one conference was not long enough to acquire it! Alice Faber Faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Yalehask.bitnet Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1993 16:40:00 CDT From: Beth Lee Simon BLSIMON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACC.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: the socioecon of mush and souse Boyd, Yes, I think there is a term difference too. Moving from mush, think of "head cheese" (if you can, or will). While head cheese is definitely an acquired taste, souse, and some other terms name made foods that poor/rural folks ate because the materials were cheap or unwanted by others. (In Madison, polenta has begun to appear on a number of menus, while mush certainly has not) beth blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu Date: Sat, 19 Jun 1993 16:41:44 -0700 From: "Joseph B. Monda" monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU Subject: Re: the socioecon of mush and souse On Sat, 19 Jun 1993, Beth Lee Simon wrote: Boyd, Yes, I think there is a term difference too. Moving from mush, think of "head cheese" (if you can, or will). While head cheese is definitely an acquired taste, souse, and some other terms name made foods that poor/rural folks ate because the materials were cheap or unwanted by others. I wonder if it's also a matter of passing time, as well. some of the terms are obsolete --mush because we mostly eat dry cereals these days, I suspect. We are in the fast food era. I wonder whether "porridge" would go over big in a yuppie restaurant. (In Madison, polenta has begun to appear on a number of menus, while mush certainly has not). We have a place noted for its gargantuan (and expensive) breakfasts. In fact it was the location for some of the Twin Peaks episodes. Anyhow, they package and sell rolled oats as a luxury food item. Incidentally, busloads of Japanes tourists visit the site. Twin Peaks (and Northern Exposure --also filmed near here) is big business. So it goes. Joe Monda Date: Sun, 20 Jun 1993 21:44:19 -0500 From: Dennis Baron baron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: corn meal mush -- I tried to send a reply a couple of weeks ago in response to the other dInnIs' note about something or other but it didn't work--perhaps your internet address is no longer operative, so I'll swithc to bitnet. I'm no expert on corn meal mush, but I've had mameliga (not sure if that's the right spelling) a couple of times in my life, once at Ratner's (which is in southern Manahatta) and once at the home of a Romanian composer of electronic music (in North Champaign, IL) and this ethnic dish much touted by my Romanian ancestors who always likened it to corn mean mush, since its a cornmeal dish (I can't go back and fix punctuation on this editor very easily, sorry) is simply awful. SOrt of like Wheateena without the flavor. Hmm. Dennis -- debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu (\ 217-333-2392 \'\ fax: 217-333-4321 Dennis Baron \'\ __________ Department of English / '| ()_________) Univ. of Illinois \ '/ \ ~~~~~~~~ \ 608 S. Wright St. \ \ ~~~~~~ \ Urbana IL 61801 ==). \__________\ (__) ()__________) Date: Mon, 21 Jun 1993 00:22:42 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL%MIZZOU1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: the socioecon of mush and souse I suppose I started the socioeconomic thing on cornmeal mush. My memories of it are primarily from the 1930s, Depression times. We also ate souse, but that was because my paternal grandmother (1/2 Welsh [Wadkins], 1/2 Irish [Leeper]) made it. She may have made it because of the German background of the paternal side of the family (Lance Lentz). I remember helping her get every solid morsel from boiled parts of the heads and other parts of a couple of hogs we'd butchered. I always liked it but didn't think of it so much as Depression food as a delicacy that only my grandmother knew how to do well. I was about 5 when I was helping her. My mother didn't like to make it, I suspect partly because of what went into it, but maybe because it takes a lot of work to make it right, or maybe because the neighbors with whom we later shared butchering pleasures didn't like it. Ah, the good ole days! DMLance Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 12:18:36 -700 From: Warren Keith Russell keru[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CPU.US.DYNIX.COM Subject: Re: receipt for corn meal mush On Sat, 19 Jun 1993, Boyd Davis wrote: small, rural town in the state). Would 'scrapple' (which I've never eaten) be a similar socioec indicator up nawth? I'm musing over projections, atti- tudes, correlations -- Boyd Davis fen00bhd at unccvm.uncc.edu I assume I'm considered "nawth." I grew up in Southern Alberta; I didn't know what 'scrapple' was till I looked it up just now in my Merriam-Webster. I have found this cornmeal mush discussion most enlightening. My grandfather moved to Canada from Alabama, but apparently didn't pass the recipe on. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Keith Russell Dynix Library Systems, Provo, Utah, U.S.A. keru[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cpu.us.dynix.com or keru[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]devg.us.dynix.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 14:35:35 EDT From: Ellen Johnson ATLAS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: corn meal mush You're in luck! Mush just happens to be one of the things I asked about in my 1990 interviews in communities previously surveyed by LAMSAS. Here are the tallies of terms and some commentary from informants (contains words not listed in the tallies because they were reported as heard only or otherwise doubtful). For the most part, the people I talked to had not eaten mush in many years; it is clearly becoming extinct. In the social analyses, the word mush was used statistically more often by whites in the earlier sample. This may be due to use of the competing term "cush" by blacks (though not freq. enough to show up in the statistics). I take this to be an Africanism related to couscous. Here are the data: 1930s cush - 3 mush - 36 turn mush - 1 (refers to turning it in frying process?) 1990 corn mush - 3 cornmeal mush - 2 druel - 1 mush - 14 No response - 9 (us. because they were unfamiliar w/referent and term) Cultivated speaker fr. Savannah (1930s): mush fed only to cattle Rural white male, GA, 1930s: hushpup hrd. from "Negroes", interpreted as something to hush the pups from crying; turn mush made of meal, turn flour of flour (turn flour also used by a SC speaker) Rur. Wh. M., Ga, 1930s: cush made of bread crumbs Educ., middle-aged Wh. Female, SC, 1930s: Indian pudding if sweetened Uneduc., old, wh. f., SC, 1930s: cush was something cooked over cornbread rur. wh. m., Ga, 1990: gruel was more liquid, of boiled milk and meal, eaten when sick (term also offered by SC and NC speakers) some ate it for breakfast, some for supper, one compared it to cream of wheat uned. old wh. f., Sc, 1990: ate as a snack aristocratic, old wh.m., NC, 1990: slaves and old people w/no teeth ate it old wh. m. rural mountains of NC, 1990 pronounced mush with an extra /r/ There, that's probably more than you wanted to know. I've been out of town or I would have posted this wealth of info. sooner. I'll stick to the subject and not get into things like a hog's "liver and lights" or chittlings today, but these are also foods that were associated w/ poor and or rural people and are rarely eaten today (though chittlings are still fairly commonly known, though many people don't know quite what they are). For the record, I'm 33, grew up in a middle-class suburb of Atlanta, and never saw any of these items on a dinner table (or elsewhere). This field work was quite an education for me, but questions like this were good for the interview, as they allowed the informant to be the expert rather than being intimidated by someone more educated. Ellen Johnson atlas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 14:13:17 CDT From: Salikoko Mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: corn meal mush In becoming acculturated in African American culture, one of the things I learned early was chittlings, served as a delicatesse during the Christmas season. It often comes with the Christmas dinner, both in the North (Midwest) and the Southeast. Salikoko Mufwene University of Chicago s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 20:17:07 -0600 From: Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU Subject: African American foods On 22 Jun 1993 14:13:17 -0500 (CDT), Salikoko Mufwene wrote: In becoming acculturated in African American culture, one of the things I learned early was chittlings, served as a delicatesse during the Christmas season. It often comes with the Christmas dinner, both in the North (Midwest) and the Southeast. Salikoko Mufwene University of Chicago s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu At Lake and Lyndale in south Minneapolis, there's a bar which has black- oriented music at night. They advertise a special soul food menu at night, cooked by a chef from Chicago. Among the soul food mentioned is "jew town polisausage." Apparently, soul food has undergone some changes in Chicago. Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 21:02:09 -0600 From: Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU Subject: cross-post of possible interest ----- Forwarded message begins here ----- From: Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu 22 Jun 1993 20:44:59 -0600 To: Multiple recipients of list FOLKTALK FOLKTALK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WMVM1.BITNET Subject: why play by ear when you can read notes? I'm reviving a dormant topic because it took me a while to work out what I had to say: One reason to learn by ear is that it helps in _unlearning_ what you know about hearing music (and then producing it). There's a similar problem with speech. Someone whose native language is German may never be able to hear the distinction in English between th, d, and t in contexts where the distinction isn't important in German. Someone from a speech area where r at the end of syllables disappears may never be able to hear any difference between "silver" and "Silva". Even written material can be thus "misheard". Oscar Wilde remembered seeing in the Wild West a sign that said "Please do not shoot the pianist. He is doing his best." It's likely that the sign actually said "Please don't shoot the piano player. He's doing the best he can." English authors get the _rhythm_ of American English wrong. See any of John Brunner's sf novels set in the US for examples. The only English writers I've encountered who could write believable American dialog are Rudyard Kipling and Clive Barker. And I've never heard an English actor speak American believably, though there are probably a few who can manage it. Music is more subtle than speech, I think. Certainly, many aspects of music are more subtle than word choice, word stress, and verb forms. Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu ------ Forwarded message ends here ------ Date: Tue, 22 Jun 1993 23:01:00 EDT From: "James_C.Stalker" STALKER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU Subject: Re: corn meal mush Chittlins, ah, now there is another delicacy, often eating with cracklin bread!Chittlins I can pass up. Cracklin bread was pretty good. Stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 13:41:17 GMT From: Michael Everson EVERSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IRLEARN.UCD.IE Subject: List of Language Lists, version 1.1 Computer Bulletin Boards for Individual Languages Prepared by Bernard Comrie and Michael Everson Version 1.1 (13 May 1993) This file lists bulletin boards devoted primarily to the linguistic study of individual languages and groups of languages (though a couple of others, in particular lists for language learners, have been included as well). It would be great if other correspondents to LINGUIST will be encouraged to maintain corresponding lists for branches of linguistics, particular approaches to linguistics, language teaching, etc. The usual way of subscribing to a list is to send the following message to the listserver (not to the address for enquiries): SUBSCRIBE name of list your first name your last name In the listing below, the name of the list is given in capital letters inside parentheses. When you subscribe, you will receive instructions on how to contribute to the list, and on how to remove your name from the subscription list (usually: SIGNOFF name of list (UNSUBSCRIBE works too)). A list of mailing lists available on Internet is available by anonymous ftp from ftp.nisc.sri.com (192.33.33.32) in the file /netinfo/ interest-groups. A directory of scholarly electronic conferences is maintained by Diane K. Kovacs (dkovacs[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kentvm.bitnet or [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kentvm.kent.edu) and is available by sending the message get acadlist readme to one of the following addresses: listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kentvm.bitnet listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kentvm.kent.edu The materials you will receive include instructions for getting more detailed descriptions of particular sets of electronic conferences (e.g. LANGUAGES, LINGUISTICS). Those interested in contacting speakers of languages (not necessarily linguists) should also consider contacting the appropriate soc.culture list (e.g. soc.culture.polish). The order of the lists follows somewhat the Library of Congress Subject headings; no attempt at bibliographical perfection has been attempted. 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Listserver: listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cuvmb.cc.columbia.edu For questions, contact: lojban-list-request[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]snark.thyrsus.com Language(s): Tolkien; PR6039 Tolkien, languages in works of J.R.R. (TOLKLANG) (includes Quenya, Qenya, Sindarin, Sindarin, Nandorin, Wood-Elven, Telerin, Eldarissa, Goldogrin, Khuzdul, Adunaid, Rohirric, Wose-speech, Arctic, Black Speech, Westron (Common Speech), as well as Old English, Welsh, Norse, Finnish, etc.) Listserver: tolklang-request[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dcs.edinburgh.ac.uk For questions, contact: tolklang[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dcs.edinburgh.ac.uk ========== Computer Bulletin Boards for Individual Languages Prepared by Bernard Comrie and Michael Everson Version 1.1 (13 May 1993) ========== Michael Everson School of Architecture, UCD; Richview, Clonskeagh; Dublin 14; E/ire Phone: +353 1 706-2745 Fax: +353 1 283-8908 Home: +353 1 478-2597 Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 12:11:26 CDT From: Salikoko Mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: African American foods I don't know what Dan's example demonstrates. Several ethnic restaurants serve dishes that are not representative of the ethnic groups they claim to represent; they may simply be items their customers like to order. Salikoko Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 17:12:30 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Methods VIII Any of you who are planning on going to Methods VIII better start making travel arrangements. I thought I was getting an early start by trying to buy a plane ticket today (since I'm going to be out of town for much of July). There are *no* seats left from Victoria to Seattle on August 8 except on Air Alaska, which would make the price several hundred dollars over the estimate I got from Northwest a month or two ago. Same for August 9. The travel agent said that she's never seen flights from Canada so full this far in advance -- that something big must be happening around that time -- bigger than Methods VIII. Rather than pay all that extra money that would be required if Air Alaska got involved in the routing, I'm probably going to fly round-trip Seattle and find a boat. Do any of you know anything about boats between Seattle and Victoria? I've heard from an e-mail friend in New England that a pleasant, not-very- expensive hydrofoil runs between Seattle and Victoria a couple of times a day. At least I remembered this time that Canada is a different country. I didn't get any funding for NWAVE in Montreal several years ago because I forgot to file the international travel papers three months in advance. (My apologies to the Canadians on the list who might find that insulting. I don't consider it an insult, however. I tend to think of land masses as units and places separated by water as different countries -- which is perhaps why I remembered to file the international travel papers for Victoria.) --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 17:42:29 -700 From: Warren Keith Russell keru[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CPU.US.DYNIX.COM Subject: Re: Methods VIII There are ferries that run from just outside Seattle to Victoria, several times a day, as I recall. It's inexpensive and a beautiful trip--definitely one of the highlights of my trip to Victoria/Vancouver a few years ago. You may be fortunate that there are no flights available! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Keith Russell Dynix Library Systems, Provo, Utah, U.S.A. keru[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cpu.us.dynix.com or keru[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]devg.us.dynix.com ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 20:36:29 -0700 From: "Joseph B. Monda" monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU Subject: Re: Methods VIII natalie: nobody in Seattle flies to Victoria except peerhaps rich folks. There are several boats every day that bomb up to Victoria from Seattle. It doesn't take long and the scenry is great. Want me to find out more info for you? Joe Monda Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1993 14:58:03 GMT From: Michael Everson EVERSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IRLEARN.UCD.IE Subject: English prepositions: Scottish Gaelic discussion I just couldn't resist forwarding this from GAELIC-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IRLEARN.UCD.IE. The topic was, well, you can probably guess. I've put translation of the Scottish Gaelic in 's. ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- sgriobh Donald Fisk donald[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]imst.bt.co.uk : wrote "Why did you bring that book I didn't want to be read out of to about Down Under up for?" :-) Chan eil "why...for" deagh Bheurla mar a tha mi a smaoineachadh. 'S fearr "what...for", nach e? It isn't "why...for" in English as far as I know. "What...for" is better, isn't it? Gary Tha thu ceart! You're right! Rinn mi mearachd, "tha "What ... for?" nas fhea\rr. I made a mistake, "What...for" is better Ach chan eil dad cea\rr le na 8 roimh-bhriathran, ge ta. But there's nothing wrong with the 8 prepositions, though. Do\mhnall. Michael Everson School of Architecture, UCD; Richview, Clonskeagh; Dublin 14; E/ire Phone: +353 1 706-2745 Fax: +353 1 283-8908 Home: +353 1 478-2597 Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1993 10:53:57 -0500 From: 00clhouck[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LEO.BSUVC.BSU.EDU Subject: Methods VIII As I wrote Natalie Maynor, contact Clipper Navigation, Inc. 1-206-448-5000, in Seattle for schedule, reservations, prices, etc. I was able to obtain a non-cancellable reservation, round-trip ticket for $69.00. The Victoria Clipper takes one to Victoria in 2 1/2 hours. There are other ferries, but the Clipper is the fastest and most direct. CLHouck Date: Thu, 24 Jun 1993 16:37:27 -0700 From: "Thomas L. Clark" tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Re: Methods VIII TRAVEL PLANS Natalie's plan to fly to Seattle is a good one. The hydrofoil is nice, I've taken it (about ninety minutes). I don't know what you mean by not- very-expensive. It was around $80 US the last time I took it. For a few dollars more, I took a seaplane (about a five-seater) from the harbour in front of the Empress Hotel, Victoria, to Lake Union in Seattle. What a terrific trip. You fly low enough to appreciate the view. My only regret is that the Princess Margaret no longer sails from Seattle to Vancouver. That was gracious, almost-Victorian, travel. Now the cheapest way to go is to take the bus from SeaTac to Vancouver, then the passenger ferry to Vancouver Island. On the ferry you can buy a bus ticket that will take you to downtown Victoria. If you know just where to get off, the bus driver will drop you near the campus and you can take a very short cab ride to campus housing. Cheers, Tom Clark tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu Your message dated: Wed, 23 Jun 1993 17:12:30 -0500 -------- Any of you who are planning on going to Methods VIII better start making travel arrangements. I thought I was getting an early start by trying to buy a plane ticket today (since I'm going to be out of town for much of July). There are *no* seats left from Victoria to Seattle on August 8 except on Air Alaska, which would make the price several hundred dollars over the estimate I got from Northwest a month or two ago. Same for August 9. The travel agent said that she's never seen flights from Canada so full this far in advance -- that something big must be happening around that time --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------------------------------- Thomas L. Clark English Department UNLV 89154 tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu or BITnet tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada2 Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1993 10:21:55 PDT From: Undetermined origin c/o Postmaster POSTMASTER[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: Methods VIII Tom: Hi! Just a quick word. I heard from Galen de Wolf that you were not sure you were coming to the Dialectology Conference here at UVic Aug.3-7. So, I thought I'd entice you with the news that your old golfing buddy - Henry J. Warkentyne, no less! - will be here. I'll be sending a closer-to-final programme out, on this List, "real soon now": the main hold-up is that I can not nail down whether our presenters from Russia will actually make it here. Anyhoo, love to see you here. In the meantime, all the best, Tom. Jimmy A. Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1993 12:59:35 CDT From: Barbara Need barbara[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAPIR.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Address query Can anyone tell me Peter Trudgill's snail-/e-mail address? Thanx Barbara Need barbara[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sapir.uchicago.edu (Please answer directly to me rather than to the net.) Date: Sat, 26 Jun 1993 14:23:50 -0600 From: Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]STAFF.TC.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: African American foods On 23 Jun 1993 12:11:26 -0500 (CDT), Salikoko Mufwene wrote: I don't know what Dan's example demonstrates. Several ethnic restaurants serve dishes that are not representative of the ethnic groups they claim to represent; they may simply be items their customers like to order. Salikoko Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu The bar claims to serve (at night) soul food cooked by a chef imported from Chicago. It has a menu of soul food cooked by this chef. The menu includes Polish sausage. In context, this implies that the Chicago version of soul food includes Polish sausage -- not that they serve soul food, and _also_ serve Polish sausage. Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu Date: Tue, 29 Jun 1993 08:50:29 CDT From: Salikoko Mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: African American foods Well, Dan, I have checked here in Chicago. African Americans (with all the dangers of this sweeping generalization) like to buy Polish sausage, though this is not typically served in our local soul food restaurants. We live, however, in a city with a very important Polish component, contributing to a Chicagoan culture, if I may put it this way. African Americans from Chicago also participate in this Chicagoan culture. Could the overlap of cultures account for the phenomenon you have brought to our attention? Now two questions: 1) Need African American culture be homogeneous and the same everywhere there are African Americans? 2) What is the relation between the variation I am suggesting here and the change I think you claimed in your earlier observation? The empirical observation in itself has been very informative, in any case. Could you own conclusion in this last note be interpreted as 'the Minnesota notion of soul food in Chicago includes Polish sausage'? Sali(koko Mufwene) s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu Date: Wed, 30 Jun 1993 09:03:49 -0400 From: "E.W. Schneider" EWSCHNEI[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ALF4.NGATE.UNI-REGENSBURG.D400.DE Subject: New address I`d like to inform those of you who know me that I am back on-line, with an e-mail connection installed at my new University. You can now reach me at EWSCHNEI[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ALF4.NGATE.UNI-REGENSBURG.DE. Please note that the snail-mail address is also changing, as Germany is introducing a wholly new system of zip codes, effective tomorrow (July 1). My regular address is then: University of Regensburg, Institut fuer Anglistik und Amerikanistik, D-93040 Regensburg, Germany. Sorry I won`t be able to join y`all for Methods in Victoria (it's hard to miss this one, especially after reading all the descriptions of the magnificent scenery on the way there ...) Have a nice conference! Edgar Schneider Edgar W. Schneider ewschnei[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]alf4.ngate.uni-regensburg.de University of Regensburg, 93040 Regensburg, Germany phone (int. line)-49-941-9433470 fax (int. line)-49-941-9434992 .