July 1 - 5 ************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 30 Jun 1997 to 1 Jul 1997 There are 7 messages totalling 137 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Ozark Folk, the Clean Air Act, and Pollution Credits (2) 2. Ozark, hillbilly 3. How plausible is this speculation? (2) 4. Agita 5. Drop the Big One [was: Re: MIKE TYSON SPECIAL: Bite ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 22:17:39 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Ozark Folk, the Clean Air Act, and Pollution Credits There are two terms: Ozarker and Ozarkian. Old-timers use Ozarker, but some think Ozarkian is a better term. I suspect these usages parallel Arkansawyer and Arkansan, but haven't checked that out. That is, those who use -er on one term use it on the other too. Some immigrants to the region, as well as younger natives, think the "correct" attributive form should have an -s, as in "Ozarks environment" as opposed to "Ozark environment." The original term at the beginning of the 19th century was "the Ozark." Because people now refer to "the Ozarks," younger Ozarkers' Sprachgefuel calls for the "plural" form for this genitive-like modifier. The attributive form in all official place names is -s-less: Ozark Mountains, Ozark National Forest, etc., but times and "the language" have changed. Yes, apostrophes get thrown in willy-nilly on signs in the area: "Ozark's Plumbing." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 11:17:15 PDT From: Dan Marcus dmarcus0[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COUNSEL.COM Subject: Re: Ozark Folk, the Clean Air Act, and Pollution Credits Taking the question back a step, do we know where the word 'Ozark' itself originated? It sounds Native American, but that's just a knee jerk guess. (Apologies if this has already been discussed.) Dan Marcus, O.I.N. (Occasionally Intrusive Non-academic) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:37:49 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Ozark, hillbilly On Tue, 1 Jul 1997, Dan Marcus wrote: Taking the question back a step, do we know where the word 'Ozark' itself originated? It sounds Native American, but that's just a knee jerk guess. (Apologies if this has already been discussed.) The source is almost certainly "aux Arcs" ( the Arc [Arkansa] Indians). Re hilbillies vs. Ozarkers -- remember that not all residents of the Ozarks are hillbillies. Only the hillbillies call themselves hillbillies. I.e., hillbilly is an SES label, not a geographic label. Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process: Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA http://ljp.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:35:59 PDT From: barbara GRADMA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVVM.UVIC.CA Subject: Re: How plausible is this speculation? Happy Canada Day! Since we are now, for the fourth year in a row, the best country in the world to live in, maybe our neighbours want to sound like us. (Just kidding!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:42:37 PDT From: barbara GRADMA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVVM.UVIC.CA Subject: Re: How plausible is this speculation? Dan: Montrealers haven't got "much less of an accent" than New Yorkers; they have *different* ones. I heard a CBC broadcast years ago when someone (I can't remember who he was) claimed to be able to discern *seven* differnt Anglo dialects in Montreal. Happy Canada Day! Barbara Harris. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 16:53:59 -0700 From: Peter Farruggio pfarr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCLINK4.BERKELEY.EDU Subject: Re: Agita I have no academic background in Italian language...just learned Southern dialect at home...Agita is a noun and means "upset stomach" usually provoked by stress. I don't know if this jibes with a dictionary, but it's how the speakers use it...Don't think there is any derivation from the participle Pete Farruggio For a newspaper column, I am trying to trace the word "agita" in English. It is absent from most dictionaries, both standard and slang, and Anne Soukhanov, in her "Word Watch," notes 1982 as an "early" citation, which seems awfully late to me. Does anyone have anything earlier, or a sense of how the Italian "agitato" became "agita"? Thanks, Evan -- Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]well.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 18:28:55 -0700 From: David Harnick-Shapiro david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BANZAI.ICS.UCI.EDU Subject: Re: Drop the Big One [was: Re: MIKE TYSON SPECIAL: Bite ] On Mon, 30 Jun 1997 23:06, "Barry A. Popik" writes: He's right. I realized after I'd written it that I had confused Tom Lehrer's comic song with Randy Newman's comic song. I hadn't heard both in quite a while. Was there a "big one" in Lehrer's "We will all go together when we go...all at once and with an incandescent glow"? I haven't dragged out my vinyl (not even sure I could get to the turntable, if I did), but a quick check of a Lehrer fan's website/ lyrics collection suggests that "big one" does not appear there [http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/5758]. -------- David Harnick-Shapiro david[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ics.uci.edu Information and Computer Science University of California, Irvine ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Jun 1997 to 1 Jul 1997 *********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 1 Jul 1997 to 2 Jul 1997 There are 5 messages totalling 157 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Montreal vs. NYC (was: How plausible is this speculation?) 2. Ozark Folk, the Clean Air Act, and Pollution Credits 3. plural ozark (2) 4. Antarctica lingo (cool!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 00:32:58 -0500 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: Montreal vs. NYC (was: How plausible is this speculation?) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 12:42:37 PDT From: barbara GRADMA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVVM.UVIC.CA Subject: Re: How plausible is this speculation? Dan: Montrealers haven't got "much less of an accent" than New Yorkers; they have *different* ones. I heard a CBC broadcast years ago when someone (I can't remember who he was) claimed to be able to discern *seven* differnt Anglo dialects in Montreal. Happy Canada Day! Barbara Harris. Oops! I thought it was reasonably clear from context that I was speaking _subjectively_. To _me_, a Montrealer speaking English has less of an accent -- that is, sounds much closer to Hudson Valley/Upstate New York -- than someone from New York City (or nearby areas of New Jersey and Long Island). This includes Francophone Montrealers. I would expect that anyone doing a _professional_ dialect study would have a better-trained ear than mine. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 23:53:14 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Ozark Folk, the Clean Air Act, and Pollution Credits Taking the question back a step, do we know where the word 'Ozark' itself originated? It sounds Native American, but that's just a knee jerk guess. (Apologies if this has already been discussed.) Native Americans didn't write, of course, so the forms of American names were "set" by speakers of French, Spanish, English, Russian. French cartographers used certain abbreviations on maps and various conventions. There were some early maps with "aux arcs" (= [land] of the arcansa Indians) written in the general area west of the Mississippi River where the Akansea (Marquette's spelling) lived / hunted. The French added -s when designating "the area of X," as in "aux Os" referring to the area claimed by the Osage. What seems to have happened is that when asked about the area north and west of the mouth of the Arkansas River (where it flows into the Mississippi) French explorers would say "aux arcs," which to English-speakers sounded like what we would spell as Ozark. Early documents show that Americans referred to the area around the mouth of the Arkansas as "The Ozark." The French wouldn't have said the -s, and the -r- gets tangled up in questions of cross-language equivalents (across at least three languages), so this is a rather complex matter. Eventually, the -s in the written form led to a (re-)morphologizing process that has given us "The Ozarks." Clear as mud, Dan Marcus (and others)? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 02:17:31 -0500 From: Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: plural ozark I understand and can accept (theoretically) Don Lance's argument that "Eventually, the -s in the written form [of the early French explorers] led to a (re-)morphologizing process that has given us 'The Ozarks.'" On the other hand, just about every mountain range in the USA that I can think of takes the singular attributive and the plural nominative: The Rocky Mountains, the Rockies; the Appalachian Mountains, the Appalachians; the Adirondack Mountains, the Adirondacks; etc. Why not the Ozark Mountains, the Ozarks? (I'll admit here that I'd RATHER believe that we were just adhering to a standard American English pattern than accept that we were apeing the French.) Gregory J. Pulliam Illinois Institute of Technology Lewis Department of Humanities Chicago, IL 60616 gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.cns.iit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:46:53 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Antarctica lingo (cool!) This is from the Wall Street Journal, 1 July 1997, pg. 1, col. 3. I can't reproduced the entire thing: Should the Big Eye Lead to a Greenout, Hey, Have a Homer Don't Understand? A Volume On the Lingo of Antarctica Will Make It Crystal Clear By Geraldine Brooks SYDNEY, Australia--Bernadette Hince used to think she had a pretty good vocabulary. As science editor for the Australian National Dictionary, she had hunted definitions for thousands of rare natural-history terms, from "snottygobble" (a shrub) to "pobblebonk" (a frog). But in 1989, when she got a new job with geologists just back from Antactica, Ms. Hince suddenly found herself at a loss for words. "They'd be complaining about problems with their 'dongas,'" says the 45-year-old botanist, who didn't know whether to sympathize or blush. She was relieved to learn that a donga isn't anything rude--it's just an appropriate-sounding term for Antartic sleeping quarters, which can be as crude as a converted shipping container. But as she struggled to decode other gripes--the irascibility of "bolows," the inconvenience of "jafas," the risk of "growlers," the bother of "big eye," the fear of getting "slotted," the strange sensation of "greenout"--the lexicographer in Ms. Hince knew it was time to go to work. When it is published late next year, her Dictionary of Antarctic English will document what may well be the world's youngest English dialect, coined in the century or so of human presence on the world's southernmost continent. From now on, when I refer to the DAE, I will mean the Dictionary of American English. What will the acronym be? DANTE? Who's publishing it? Penguin Books? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 19:24:59 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: plural ozark I understand and can accept (theoretically) Don Lance's argument that "Eventually, the -s in the written form [of the early French explorers] led to a (re-)morphologizing process that has given us 'The Ozarks.'" On the other hand, just about every mountain range in the USA that I can think of takes the singular attributive and the plural nominative: The Rocky Mountains, the Rockies; the Appalachian Mountains, the Appalachians; the Adirondack Mountains, the Adirondacks; etc. Why not the Ozark Mountains, the Ozarks? (I'll admit here that I'd RATHER believe that we were just adhering to a standard American English pattern than accept that we were apeing the French.) You've just described the process I had in mind, but I collapsed a couple of steps in my description. I wonder if people in the Adirondaks are displaying similar patterns. The names of older businesses in Springfield MO use 'Ozark' (Ozark Plumbing), whereas recently-established businesses seem to prefer the -s form (Ozarks Plumbing). Do we get parallels in "Adirondak Plumbing" and "Adirondaks Plumbing"? The current residents who "add" the -s to the attributive form are following English rules, not French-like rules. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Jul 1997 to 2 Jul 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 2 Jul 1997 to 3 Jul 1997 There are 10 messages totalling 511 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Seeking permission to post book announcements (fwd) (6) 2. Problem processing mail file from Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM 3. Apology fr. Mark Mandel 4. JULY FOURTH SPECIAL: Uncle Sam (part one) 5. JULY FOURTH SPECIAL: Uncle Sam Wants You (part two) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 08:49:12 EDT From: Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Seeking permission to post book announcements (fwd) Dear list members, I received the following request to post book announcements on ADS-L (titles relevant to ADS). As you may know, LINGUIST posts such announcements. Before replying with a yes or no, I have decided to forward the request to the list, which includes a sample. Please reply with your opinion, yes or no. I guess we can have sort of a running ballot on the issue. Keep in mind that the purpose of the list is scholarly. Such notices serve a scholarly purpose, but they also have a commercial nature. Terry Irons Dear Mr. Irons, We publish occasional new scholarly book titles which are relevant to the subscribers of ADS-L and would like to know if you will accept short announcements for posting. If so, please inform us of your guidelines. Our announcements would appear in the following format unless you specify a different one: ------------------ DIALECT DEATH THE CASE OF BRULE SPANISH Charles E Holloway 1997 x, 220 pp. Studies in Bilingualism, 13 US/Canada: Cloth: 1 55619 547 8 Price: $69.00 Rest of the world: Cloth: 90 272 4119 8 Price: Hfl. 120,-- John Benjamins Publishing web site: http://www.benjamins.com For further information via e-mail: service[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]benjamins.com The Brule Dwellers of Ascension Parish are descendants of Canary Island immigrants who came to Louisiana in the late 1700s. A few residents in and around the Ascension Parish area still speak an archaic dialect of Spanish which is at the brink of linguistic extinction. Because the Brule dialect is in the final stages of what is commonly known as "language death", the case of Brule Spanish presents an exciting opportunity to investigate commonly held assumptions regarding the structural changes often associated with vestigial languages. Its relative isolation from other dialects of Spanish for over two hundred years serves as a sort of linguistic "time capsule" which provides information that is relevant to critical outstanding issues in Hispanic dialectology and historical linguistics. In addition to examining these issues, documenting the specific characteristics of Brule Spanish, and comparing Brule Spanish with other modern Spanish dialects, this book presents a very accessible introduction to the field of language death. ------------------ Thank you for your attention to this request. Sincerely, Tony Schiavo -------------------------------------------------------------- Anthony P. Schiavo Jr Tel: (215) 836-1200 Publicity/Marketing Fax: (215) 836-1204 John Benjamins North America e-mail: tony[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]benjamins.com PO Box 27519 Philadelphia PA 19118-0519 Check out the John Benjamins web site: http://www.benjamins.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:20:19 -0400 From: "L-Soft list server at UGA (1.8b)" LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Problem processing mail file from Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM An error occurred while processing file 6132 from Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM: "Mail has been received for delivery to the ADS-L list from a user which had been served out". ------------------- Message causing the problem (31 lines) -------------------- Return-Path: Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Received: from UGA (NJE origin SMTPIN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA) by UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (LMail V1.2c/1.8c) with BSMTP id 0587; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:20:18 -0400 Received: from pluto.dragonsys.com (204.165.63.1) by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) with TCP; Wed, 02 Jul 97 15:20:18 EDT Received: (from smap[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]localhost) by pluto.dragonsys.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) id PAA20149 for ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:20:55 -0400 Received: from ishtar.dragonsys.com(204.165.56.139) by pluto.dragonsys.com via smap (V2.0) id xma020143; Wed, 2 Jul 97 15:20:44 -0400 Received: from smtpgate.dragonsys.com (smtpgate.dragonsys.com [204.165.56.4]) by ishtar.dragonsys.com (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA24627 for ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 15:20:44 -0400 Received: from NEVADA-Message_Server by smtpgate.dragonsys.com with Novell_GroupWise; Wed, 02 Jul 1997 15:22:11 -0500 Message-Id: s3ba7222.018[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]smtpgate.dragonsys.com X-Mailer: Novell GroupWise 4.1 Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 15:23:39 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: An apology Leave town for a few days, and what happens?... My freshly painted house was egged. So were the cars in the driveway. And my vacation message (with text left over from a previous occasion) got stuck in a loop with ADS-L. My contrite apologies to all the victims of this involuntary spam, which, although unintentional, was my fault. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:08:52 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Seeking permission to post book announcements (fwd) YES, I would agree to the posting of book advertisements as long as the books are relevant to the interests of the list. But I hate spam telling me about new business opportunities as much as I hate phone calls during dinner from people who want to tell me about an amazing new product to make my septic tank run smoothly forever. Sick of calls from MCI and what must be dozens of fraternal police organizations, Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 09:24:57 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Apology fr. Mark Mandel This message is forwarded for Mark Mandel: ----------------- Begin included message ------------- Leave town for a few days, and what happens?... My freshly painted house was egged. So were the cars in the driveway. And my vac ation message (with text left over from a previous occasion) got stuck in a loop with ADS-L. My contrite apologies to all the victims of this involuntary spam, which, althou gh unintentional, was my fault. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ---------------- End included message ---------------- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:49:00 +0900 From: Daniel Long dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]X.AGE.OR.JP Subject: Re: Seeking permission to post book announcements (fwd) I have little to add to Wayne's comments below, but I would very much like to see announcements of a small, select number of relevant new publications. Perhaps more that than those of you Stateside, I have a problem finding out about new books in English. At the same time, I have (along the rest of you) seen the kind of commercial junk that finds its way into our mail boxes because of subscribing to these lists. I can say that, in the case in question, the book is from Benjamins and I didn't know about it already, and was interested in hearing about it, so if someone is tabbing the votes, I vote "yea". (Is that spelled write?) Danny Long Wayne Glowka wrote: YES, I would agree to the posting of book advertisements as long as the books are relevant to the interests of the list. But I hate spam telling me about new business opportunities as much as I hate phone calls during dinner from people who want to tell me about an amazing new product to make my septic tank run smoothly forever. -- (Dr.) Daniel Long, Associate Professor Japanese Language Research Center Osaka Shoin Women's College 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577 tel and fax +81-6-729-1831 email dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/index-e.htm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:46:00 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: JULY FOURTH SPECIAL: Uncle Sam (part one) "I'm a Yankee Doodle Dandy A Yankee Doodle do or die A real live nephew of my Uncle Sam Born on the Fourth of July." --Tom Lehrer (Just kidding! George M. Cohan, of course!) Who was Uncle Sam? Uncle Sam is obviously an extension of U. S. (United States), whom he personifies. The creation of Uncle Sam--the famous name and the portrait made famous by cartoons--deserves serious scholarship. In this Part One, I'll survey the existing scholarship and provide some important discoveries. Part Two will cover the most famous Uncle Sam of the "I WANT YOU!" poster. If I have the time and strength for other parts, I'll discuss the Uncle Sam caricature in great depth, the farce of Congress's Uncle Sam declaration and the Indiana faux-Uncle Sam, and the names of American soldiers (Sammies, Teddies, Yanks). This survey is obviously incomplete; I did not get a chance to drive to some towns in upstate New York and to Vermont because of the serious illnesses and deaths of both my father and mother. I have that rescheduled for later this year, and I'll tell you then what that yields. Only a handful of scholars have studied the subject. The best scholar is Albert Matthews, who worked with the American Antiquarian Society in Worcester, Massachusetts. He did a monograph on Brother Jonathan (an earlier representative figure of the U. S.) in 1902 and one on Uncle Sam in 1908. His work pioneered the field and still remains important. Frank Weitenkampf's UNCLE SAM THROUGH THE YEARS: A CARTOON RECORD (1949) provides the best complement to Matthews' work. Jessie F. Wheeler of the Troy Public Library examined Albany-Troy area papers and wrote an Uncle Sam series for the local newspaper. I examined her unpublished papers in the New York State Library in Albany. Alton Ketchum combined these three sources (and left out what he didn't like) in his UNCLE SAM: THE MAN AND THE LEGEND (1959) and "The Search for Uncle Sam" in HISTORY TODAY, April 1990, pp. 20-26. In 1961, Congress officially declared that Troy, New York's Samuel Wilson is Uncle Sam. No one has done any other serious research. Everything is based on one single item about the War of 1812 that is unattributed and appears as late as 1830!! The following was in the New York Gazette of 12 May 1830 (pages 39-40 in Ketchum): A Neat Communication--Origin of "Uncle Sam" Much learning and research have been exercised in tracing the origins of odd names and odd sayings, which taking their rise in some trifling occurrence or event, easily explained or well understood for a time, yet, in the course of years, becoming involved in mystery, assume an importance equal at least to the skill and ingenuity required to explain or trace them to their origin. "The Swan with two necks," "the Bull and Mouth," "All my Eye, Betty Martin," and many others, are of this character--and who knows but, an hundred years hence, some "learned commentator" may puzzle his brain to furnish some ingenious explanation of the origin of the national appellation placed at the head of this article. To aid him, therefore, in this research, I will state the facts as they occurred under my own eyes. Immediately after the declaration of the last war with England, Elbert Anderson, of New York, a contractor, visited Troy on the Hudson, where was concentrated, and where he purchased, a large quantity of provisions--beef, pork, etc. The inspectors of these articles at that place were Messrs. Ebenezer and Samuel Wilson. The latter gentleman (invariably know as _"Uncle Sam"_) generally superintended in person a large number of workmen, who, on this occasion, were employed in overhauling the provisions purchased by the contractor for the army. The casks were marked E. A.--U. S. This work fell to the lot of a facetious fellow in the employ of the Messrs. Wilson, who, on being asked by some of his fellow-workmen the meaning of the mark (for the letters U. S., for United States, were then almost entirely new to them) said "he did not know, unless it meant _Elbert Anderson and Uncle Sam_"--alluding exclusively, then, to the said "Uncle Sam" Wilson. The joke took among the workmen, passed currently; and "Uncle Sam" himself being present, was occasionally rallied by them on the increasing extent of his possessions. Many of these workmen being of a character denominated "food for powder," were found shortly after following the recruiting drum, and pushing toward the frontier lines, for the double purose of meeting the enemy, and of eating the provisions they had lately laboured to put in good order. Their old jokes of course accompanied them, and, before the first campaign ended, this identical one first appeared in print--it gained favour rapidly, till it penetrated and was recognized in every part of our country, and will, no doubt, continue so while the United States remain a nation. It originated precisely as stated; and the writer of this article distinctly recollects remarking, at the time when it first appeared in print, to a person who was equally aware of its origin, how odd it would be should this silly joke, originating in the midst of beef, pork, pick, mud, salt, and hoop-poles, eventually become a national cognomen. There are problems with this. For starters, "U. S." would have been widely understood by the War of 1812, as Matthews comments in the Proceedings of the American Antiquarian Society, vol. XIX, pp. 21-65 (1908). In a footnote on page 39, Matthews states his research "is based on an examination of newspapers published 1812-1815 in Portsmouth, Salem, Boston, Worcester, Hartford, Troy, Albany, New York, Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Washington." So he covered NY, MA, CT, NH, and Washington, DC. That's a lot of work, but still not enough. What about Providence, RI? Detroit, MI (scene of a battle)? New Orleans, LA (scene of a battle)? North Carolina? Vermont (scene of much action)? Plattsburgh, NY (VERY important)? WHAT ABOUT CANADA????? It occurred to me that no scholar anywhere has checked the Canadian papers. Not at all! Albert Matthews wrote a Postscript in the same journal, October 1908, pp. 250-252 that contained additional information (some by Jessie Wheeler of the Troy Public Library) that cast strong doubt on the Samuel Wilson origin. Ketchum mentions none of this information in his book. I looked at the bibliography. Matthews' Postscript is not in the bibliography!!!! Unbelievable! To be continued. Gotta leave to join my sister and clean up the family house. Anybody want 50 chess trophies free? They make fine doorstops or paperweights! Anybody want to buy the family home? Fine for running tours. "Yes, folks, this was his room. He wrote THE ADULT AND THE ADOLESCENT from this desk. It got mixed reviews at first.....See this window? On a clear day from this window, you can see the Empire State Building....." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:47:37 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: JULY FOURTH SPECIAL: Uncle Sam Wants You (part two) (This concerns the next topic. Part One will be continued in Part Three.) One really shouldn't write in the books at the New York Public Library. I picked up the book JAMES MONTGOMERY FLAGG: CELEBRITY-ARTIST with biographical portrait by Dr. G. L. Freeman (1960). Written on the title page was this: Scholars Note: A family rebuttal to the Biographical Portrait by Freeman can be found in Faith Flagg's _The Lion and the Jackal_ (1992) MCX F57 93-7039. Thanks! I'll get to that in a minute. Artist James Montgomery Flagg drew the famous Uncle Sam (pointing his finger at ya) for Leslie's Weekly in 1916. It was noticed by the military and became the "I WANT YOU FOR U. S. ARMY" poster that is still widely known today. Alton Ketchum's UNCLE SAM: THE MAN AND THE LEGEND, pg. 103, shows this poster along with a similar one of Britain's General Kitchener, "YOUR COUNTRY NEEDS YOU." I did some research in the New York Public Library and pulled out a book called THE LION AND THE JACKAL (amazing how I found this). The CATNYP computer entry has this note: "Proof that the so-called biographical portrait inserted by Graydon LaVerne Freeman in 1960 into his unsold copies of Celebrities was not based as claimed on taped interviews with Flagg in 1949, but on text he lifted many years later from Flagg's autobiography Roses and Buckshot." Obviously, Faith Flagg had some pull with the library. I have never seen this before--statements on both a book and a computer entry! Flagg's autobiography claimed that he used a young soldier as a model and aged him for Uncle Sam. However, most commentaries state that the model for Uncle Sam was the artist himself. Flagg lived in the Parc Vendome on my very street--57th Street. A few blocks away is Carnegie Hall, and across the street from it is the old Uncle Sam Umbrella Shop (since 1866, although not always at this location). I wrote directly to the author, who wrote back with this: March 13, 1994 Dear Mr. Popik: Since I, too, enjoy tracking facts and phrases to their roots, I am happy to enclose a xerox copy of a letter of mine that was printed in 1981 in the _Baltimore Sun_. The publishers of the educational booklet, see second enclosure, were also a bit cavalier with the facts, although they promised to correct their captions that claimed Flagg posed in the mirror for his 1916 Uncle Sam. If you look closely, you will see that I covered their errors with suggested corrections. This fallacy is perpetuated by _Encyclopedia Britannica_, despite their promise back in 1981 to amend their entry. Susan Meyer propogates it even further in her otherwise excellent book FLAGG (Watson-Guptil, NY: 1977?). The Freeman travesty that I addressed in my monograph scarcely merits equal mention, owing to his obvious distaste for truth. I'm pleased that you read it. Although I have the makings of a book on my father, I may never get it organized, so I'm glad of any chance to correct the egregious myth that my father posed for his original Uncle Sam. Nor did the ex-waiter from the Stork Club, who got his face and claim printed in a newspaper about 20 years ago! The real story of the young Marine whose face inspired the painting is far more interesting, don't you agree? (Kitchener's pose in Leete's 1914 British paper also played a part) In World War II, Flagg did indeed use his mirror image for two or three Uncle Sam posters: the Red Cross poster shown, a coatless Sam rolling up his sleeves as he grasps a spanner and growls (pardon the historical accuracy) "Jap, You're Next!", and one of Sam dashing forward on horseback shouting, I believe, "Wake Up, America!" In any case, I was there and saw them as they were painted--and, being sixty by then, he looked the part. The Uncle Sam costume, by the way, was created especially for Flagg by the Dutch Treat Club to wear as "victim" of one of their Roasts in the 40s. It reproduced faithfully the dignified costume Flagg had designed in 1916 for his original I WANT YOU poster, a compliment that touched him. I know your part of 57th Street well, having lived at the Great Northern Hotel at one time and studied dramatics with Betty Cashman in a Carnegie Hall studio in the mid-40s. My father, of course, lived at the Parc Vendome near 9th and I lived across from him at the Henry Hudson Hotel while I was attending Barnard College. However, I don't remember the umbrella shop. Sorry. Good luck with your article; I liked the Big Apple story and look forward to seeing one on Uncle Sam. Cordially, Faith Flagg There's a portrait of her in James Montgomery Flagg's ROSES AND BUCKSHOT, and Faith Flagg is absolutely stunning. (I felt like adding "I WANT YOU." Too bad that was painted about fifty years ago--them's the breaks. Uncle Sam could've been my dad.) The Baltimore Sun article referred to was published 10 April 1981 in a letter to the editor by Faith Flagg. It restates what she wrote to me. I guess she'd know! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 10:07:17 -0500 From: Thomas Creswell creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET Subject: Re: Seeking permission to post book announcements (fwd) Terry Lynn Irons wrote: Dear list members, I received the following request to post book announcements on ADS-L (titles relevant to ADS). As you may know, LINGUIST posts such announcements. Before replying with a yes or no, I have decided to forward the request to the list, which includes a sample. Please reply with your opinion, yes or no. I guess we can have sort of a running ballot on the issue. Keep in mind that the purpose of the list is scholarly. Such notices serve a scholarly purpose, but they also have a commercial nature. Terry Irons Dear Mr. Irons, We publish occasional new scholarly book titles which are relevant to the subscribers of ADS-L and would like to know if you will accept short announcements for posting. If so, please inform us of your guidelines. Our announcements would appear in the following format unless you specify a different one: ------------------ DIALECT DEATH THE CASE OF BRULE SPANISH Charles E Holloway 1997 x, 220 pp. Studies in Bilingualism, 13 US/Canada: Cloth: 1 55619 547 8 Price: $69.00 Rest of the world: Cloth: 90 272 4119 8 Price: Hfl. 120,-- John Benjamins Publishing web site: http://www.benjamins.com For further information via e-mail: service[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]benjamins.com The Brule Dwellers of Ascension Parish are descendants of Canary Island immigrants who came to Louisiana in the late 1700s. A few residents in and around the Ascension Parish area still speak an archaic dialect of Spanish which is at the brink of linguistic extinction. Because the Brule dialect is in the final stages of what is commonly known as "language death", the case of Brule Spanish presents an exciting opportunity to investigate commonly held assumptions regarding the structural changes often associated with vestigial languages. Its relative isolation from other dialects of Spanish for over two hundred years serves as a sort of linguistic "time capsule" which provides information that is relevant to critical outstanding issues in Hispanic dialectology and historical linguistics. In addition to examining these issues, documenting the specific characteristics of Brule Spanish, and comparing Brule Spanish with other modern Spanish dialects, this book presents a very accessible introduction to the field of language death. ------------------ Thank you for your attention to this request. Sincerely, Tony Schiavo -------------------------------------------------------------- Anthony P. Schiavo Jr Tel: (215) 836-1200 Publicity/Marketing Fax: (215) 836-1204 John Benjamins North America e-mail: tony[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]benjamins.com PO Box 27519 Philadelphia PA 19118-0519 Check out the John Benjamins web site: http://www.benjamins.com My vote is Yes. Tom Creswell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 12:21:15 -0400 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: Seeking permission to post book announcements (fwd) i agree with Wayne Glowka's comments. I vote yes. I hope the announements will be made with common sense and a touch of professional courtesy. Jeutonne Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:36:11 -0400 From: David Bergdahl bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Seeking permission to post book announcements (fwd) yes ===================================================================== == David Bergdahl Ellis Hall 114c Ohio University / Athens Associate Prof Fall Qtr office hrs: 9 TTh & by appointment English Dept tel: (614) 593-2783 fax: (614) 593-2818 bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl ===================================================================== == ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Jul 1997 to 3 Jul 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Jul 1997 to 4 Jul 1997 There are 5 messages totalling 404 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. JULY FOURTH SPECIAL: Uncle Sam (part three) 2. JULY FOURTH SPECIAL: Uncle Sam Goes to Congress (part four) 3. Inauguration in PA: diplomatic opportunity 4. Seeking permission to post book announcements (fwd) (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:39:11 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: JULY FOURTH SPECIAL: Uncle Sam (part three) (Part Three continues Part One) When I went to Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, a new mall opened in the heart of Troy, New York called the "Uncle Sam Atrium." "USA--get it?" said a fellow editor of the college newspaper. "Isn't that cute?" Soon afterward, a Samuel Wilson "Uncle Sam" statue was dedicated. It was a few steps away from the XXX Cinema Arts Theatre, or "Skinema" as we called it. Near the new statue were concrete benches with concrete chess tables. I sat on the bench, looked at the statue, and then looked at the chess board. They were all positioned the wrong way! It would be impossible to use them.... Albert Matthews's "UNCLE SAM"--A Postscript, at Proceedings of the American Antiquarian Society, October 1908, pp. 250-252, contains the following two items: (Troy Post, 20 August 1816) "Uncle Sam's Pedigree"--Uncle Sam is a cant phrase, significant of the United States, as John Bull signifies England. The origin of it seems to be this: In the year 1807, there was authorized by law, the raising of a regiment of Light Dragoons. The initial letters U.S.L.D. were painted on their caps, meaning the United States Light Dragoons. A countryman passing by, inquired of a by-stander what they were, and received for an answer, "they are UNCLE SAM'S LAZY DOGS, don't you see it on their caps?" This story soon got amongst the soldiers, and they have ever since denominated the United States Uncle Sam. (Troy Post, 19 August 1817) _"Uncle Sam"_--This expression, which originated during the war, from the initials "U. S." on the soldiers' knapsacks, has come into general use. The Indians at the west, from hearing it often used, have imbibed the idea that it is actually the name of the president; and while at Sacketts' Harbor, a considerable number of Indians and Squaws crowded around the president, wishing, as they expressed it, "to shake hands with UNCLE SAM." In his original paper of April 1908, pg. 33, Matthews writes: Meanwhile, however, we get our first glimpse of Uncle Sam. An article half a column in length, headed "For the Troy Post," was printed in that paper of September 7, 1813, and began as follows: "'Loss upon loss, and no ill luck stiring (sic) but what lights upon UNCLE SAM'S shoulders,' exclaim the Government editors, in every part of the Country. The Albany _Argus_ of last Tuesday laments the disasters and disappointments of our Border War, in most pathetic strains &c. &c." In a note is given this explanation: "This cant name for our government has got almost as current as 'John Bull.' The letters U. S. on the government waggons, &c are supposed to have given rise to it." Matthews summarizes this in the Postscript, pg. 251: We have, then within a period of four years (1813-1817) no fewer than three accounts in the Troy newspapers of the origin of Uncle Sam, and in none is there any allusion to the Samuel Wilson story. It is difficult to believe that had the Wilson story then been in existence it would have escaped the attention of the editor of the Troy _Post_. So where did the U. S. = Uncle Sam come from? The army meat? The army helmets? The army knapsacks? The army wagons? A wonderful illustration of the initials "U. S." on a wagon is in the Library of Congress's book CATALOG OF AMERICAN POLITICAL PRINTS, pg. 61, 1834-3. The lithograph was published in New York City and is titled "ANDREW RESOLUTE UNCLE SAM'S FAITHFUL TEAMSTER, TAKING THE PRODUCE OF THE FARMS, TO ANOTHER STOREHOUSE, AND GIVING UNCLE SAM HIS, REASONS FOR SO DOING." The note states that "Several figures look on and comment as a horse-drawn covered wagon pulls away from a warehouse and adjacent United State Hotel. In the center below stand Andrew Jackson (holding a coachman's whip) and Uncle Sam." This is not in Alton Ketchum's 1959 UNCLE SAM book, nor is it in his 1990 HISTORY TODAY "Search for Uncle Sam" article. The incompetence is simply staggering! Ketchum writes on page 21 of the latter, "But as my research progressed, it became evident that Matthews had missed a number of key sources." All of these "sources" are about the personal history of Samuel Wilson, which indeed may be irrelevant. After over thirty years, Ketchum STILL doesn't realize there's a Matthews Postscript! For the initials "U. S." on a black wooden canteen (in the Smithsonian), see page 129 of Philip Katcher's ARMIES OF THE AMERICAN WARS 1753-1815 (1975). For the initials "U. S." on the Light Dragoon helmets, see "U. S. LIGHT DRAGOON BELT PLATES AND HELMETS, 1808-1812" by Joseph M. Thatcher, pp. 16-19, MILITARY COLLECTOR AND HISTORIAN, Spring 1975. In the same publication, Winter 1975, pg. 180, see the "USRR" of "REGIMENT OF RIFLEMEN CAP ISIGNIA, 1808-1812." I have written to military historians about this, but they have no additional knowledge of Uncle Sam. We will now consider the first use of "Uncle Sam" anywhere. I will, of course, make a major, invaluable contribution to this. On pages 40-41 of Ketchum's book, there is an undated broadside that mentions Uncle Sam. On pages 41-42, he says: The earliest use of the term "Uncle Sam" in this connection which has been discovered thus far was in a broadside reproduced herewith (FIGURE 42), which gives evidence of having been printed in the spring of 1813. Under the crude woodcuts are two mentions of Uncle Sam. One is in doggerel under the cartoon of "Bonapart": "If Uncle Sam needs, I'll be glad to assist him." The other appears in the last line of the similar caption under John Rodgers: "But if Uncle Sam lives, they will all be Burgoyn'd." This refers back, of course, to the Revolutionary victory over that British general. The broadside can be dated in part by the account of the battle of Queenston, which took place on October 20, 1812. On the opposite page, under "John Bull in a Pet," are references to British ships defeated by the U. S. Navy, including the _ Guerriere_, _Macedonian_, _Java_, _Frolic_, and _Peacock_. Of these the last chronologically was the _Peacock_, which was taken February 24, 1813. The "Northern Expedition" then in preparation was General Dearborn's campaign against the British posts along the northern shore of Lake Ontario, which got under way early in the spring of 1813. It would appear, therefore, that this broadside dates from about March of that year. The characters depicted are, left to right, Dolly Madison, the Devil, Bonaparte, John Bull, James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, and Commodore John Rodgers. The original of the broadside is in the Library of Congress. Its significance was discovered by Frederick R. Goff, Chief of the Rare Book Division, who believes that it was printed in northern New York, possibly Troy or Albany. In 1994, I was visiting Chicago. I had just gone to the Chicago Historical Society, where a tour guide suggested that I solve "the Windy City." (Boy, did THAT work out.) I walked down to the Newberry Library, where, from August 26, 1994-January 7, 1995, it ran an exhibit called THE FRONTIER IN AMERICAN CULTURE. An accompanying book by this titled was published in 1994 by the University of California Press and edited by James R. Grossman (it might still be available in the Newberry Library bookshop). The exhibit opened with a broadside "Murder of the whole Family of Samuel Wells, consisting of his wife and sister and eleven children, by the Indians: Extract of a letter from a gentleman in New Orleans, to his friend in New-York, dated May 1, 1809." Broadside (1813) Edward E. Ayer Collection. My jaw dropped. They didn't know what it was! Everyone walked passed it, and no one knew what it was! I later asked the Newberry about it, but it provided no additional information. IT WAS THE COMPANION PIECE TO THE UNCLE SAM BROADSIDE, STARING ME RIGHT IN THE FACE!! Three figures from the Uncle Sam broadside were cut and pasted to this one: Bonapart, Doll, and John Adams. They formed the second part of this broadside, which reads: "AN ELEGY ON THE DEATH OF MISS SALLY HAMILTON, of Athens, N. Y., who on the night of the 25th of August, 1813, on her return from a visit in the lower part ofthe town, was supposed to have been met by two ruffians, who inhumanly murdered her, and threw her body in the Creek." The Uncle Sam broadside's figures are more fully drawn, so it probably predates 25 August 1813. We now can guess a place; the broadsides might have been printed in Troy or Albany, but Athens or Catskill must be checked. I haven't had time to go there yet, but I will later this year. A few more items must be mentioned before I end this segment, pending further research. There is an "Uncle Sam" in one of the verses to "Yankee Doodle" (who was born on the fourth of July), but this verse does not date before 1824. See REPORT ON THE STAR SPANGLED BANNER, HAIL COLUMBIA, AMERICA & YANKEE DOODLE (1909), the famous study by the Library of Congress's musicologist Oscar Sonneck that was reprinted by Dover Books, page 136, verse 10. Generals in the War of 1812 were called "Granny," from "grenadier." The Independent American (Ballston Spa, NY), 5 August 1813, pg. 3, col. 3, has this: _Etymology_.--One being asked why the Hero of the North was called _Granny D---n_ (Dearborn--ed.), answered--Because he is the _Deliverer_ of the country.--_Portland Gaz._ From "granny" we'll go directly to "uncle." Matthews on page 26 states "Timothy Pickering was 'Uncle Tim.'" The footnote is this: A poetical skit entitled "All Tories Together," which appeared in the _Aurora_ of October 7, 1813, began thus (p. 2-5): "Oh! come in true jacobin trim, With birds of the same color'd feather, Bring your plots and intrigues, uncle TIM, And let's all be tories together." I noticed this significantly earlier, in the Western Sun (Vincennes, Indiana), 21 August 1813, pg. 4, col. 1. Uncle Tim may be before our first Uncle Sam. The piece is taken from the Phoenix (wherever that is--Boston?) and is titled "Parody of Granny Gray." For whatever it's worth, in the New Hampshire Gazette (Portsmouth) of 1 March 1814, pg. 3, cols. 3-4, there are mentions of John Bull, Jemmy Madison, and "orator Sam" in a song parody. Lastly, in the Independent American (Ballston Spa, NY), 7 September 1813, pg. 2, col. 2, there is mention of a Major Samuel Adams of the 7th division of the Light Infantry Companies. He--certainly more than Samuel Wilson--would have been a natural. Can you imagine a soldier serving under SAMUEL ADAMS? These same soldiers would have had the U. S. L. A. on their caps. Also, Uncle Samuel Adams = U. S. A. Until further investigations (in my spare time, of course), I'll end here. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 08:39:58 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: JULY FOURTH SPECIAL: Uncle Sam Goes to Congress (part four) Our story wouldn't be complete without a pretender to the throne, and the follies of our Congress. If I have time, I'll do the cartoons in part five. There was another Samuel Wilson! This is from STORIES ON STONE: A BOOK OF AMERICAN EPITAPHS (OUP, 1954) by Charles L. Wallis, pg. 18: Persons living near Christian Chapel Cemetery, near Merriam, Indiana, are able to produce documentation proving that in this place and not in Troy is the grave of the actual prototype of Uncle Sam. An upright slab records: Soldier of 1812 Samuel Wilson Died May 7, 1865 Aged 100 Years and 3 Days. This all began with an article in the Indianapolis Star of 26 February 1928: Grave of the Original Uncle Sam Found in Noble County, Indiana Kendallville Newspaper Woman Visits 93-Year-Old Hoosier, Who Tells How Father's Nickname Came to Represent the United States (...) Samuel Wilson, one of triplets, two boys, and a girl, was born at Wilmington, Del., March 4, 1778, the son of Marmaduke and Mary Wilson, who came to America from Scotland. There were no other children in the family. Growing into manhood there, Samuel with his brother joined the Lewis and Clark Northwest expedition in 1804, accompanying them as far as where Mandan, N. D., is now located. These young men spent the winter there, returning to St. Louis, Mo., in the spring. Later they returned to Troy-on-the-Hudson, N. Y., where they were joined by their parents. Samuel secured employment with one Elbert Anderson, who owned and operated a general supply store. (...) "Uncle Sam" had varied experience during the war. He was on board the Constitution in that famous twenty-five minute battle with the Guerrierre when the latter was sunk off Cape Kace. In this battle Uncle Sam was cited for gallantry by Captain Isaac Hull, and when he was honorably discharged he received two land warrants from the government. One of these warrants he sold to his son John M., who now lives at Albion, Ind., while the other went to a Jim Harrison and was also used in Indiana. (...) Uncle Sam died March 7, 1878, in Kosciusko county, Indiana, at the age of 100 years and three days. His body was later removed to Merriam where it now rests with other members of the family. Lewis & Clark expedition? U. S. S. Constitution at its most famous battle? AND Uncle Sam? Obviously, what we have here is Forest Gump!! This was disputed in the 2 December 1928 New York Times, "REAL 'UNCLE SAM' STIRS DISPUTE." I went to Indiana to check it out; the historical society had a clippings file. Alton Ketchum does not mention this, neither in his book nor his article on Uncle Sam. I looked up the Lewis and Clark records, which are quite detailed. No Samuel Wilson! I wrote to the U. S. S. Constitution museum in Boston. No Samuel Wilson on board when that ship fought the Guerrierre! In 1961, this issue came up before Congress when the Troy "Samuel Wilson" was about to be honored as Uncle Sam. This is from the Indianapolis Star, 27 July 1961: MEMORIES NOT ENOUGH State Says Uncle In Claim To Sam Unless the residents of Merriam can come up with something more tangible than memories, that Noble County community will not stand in history as the burial place of the character now portrayed universally as "Uncle Sam." This was the sad state of events yesterday as the Senate subcommittee of Federal charters, holidays and celebrations recognized Troy, N. Y., as the resting place of Uncle Sam Wilson, whose features artists and cartoonists have made a legend. Wilson was a Troy meat packer. He was born in Arlington, Mass., the Senate subcommittee decided after much judicial inquiry and cogitation. In Indianapolis, Hubert H. Hawkins, director of the Indiana Historical Bureau, took the news with equanimity. "We encountered a very important dearth of documentary material in support of the Merriam claim," he commented. No kidding! The ball started with Alton Ketchum's 1959 book. In the New York Legislative Record and Index (March 25, 1959), pp. 2586-2587, September 13th was declared as "Uncle Sam day" in New York State. Samuel Wilson was declared to be a man of "high personal integrity." Never mind that, as Albert Matthews posted in a footnote on page 32, Wilson's business partner Elbert Anderson was mentioned in the Albany Gazette thusly: "ELBERT ANDERSON, Jun. Contractor U. S. Army, is a base _Villain_, a _Liar_, and a _Coward_. James BUTLER. 18th September 1813. It is a huge step to say that Samuel Wilson was "Uncle Sam." It is another huge step to say that the meat he inspected was really wholesome. No matter! In the Congressional Record of April 27, 1959, pg. A3453, Representative Leo O'Brien put the entire New York Times "Uncle Sam" article of April 12, 1959 in the record as an "extension of remarks." It was written by Thomas I. Gerson--a truly horrible Uncle Sam scholar, who wrote for the Troy Record. More stuff is in the Congressional Record of July 20, 1959, pages 13709-13710. Congress officially recognized the contributions of Jessie F. Wheeler of the Troy Public Library and "Thomas I. Gerson, official 'Uncle Sam' historian, who prepared and directed the testimony at the hearing. Mr. Gerson has been writing and researching Sam Wilson for 13 years." Yikes. New York Senators Kenneth Keating and Jacob Javits added their say in the Congressional Record of September 12, 1959, pp. 19230-19231, for "Uncle Sam Day." In the Congressional Record of February 23, 1960, pg. A1516, the Samuel Wilson grave into national shrine movement began. On March 24, 1960, pages 6523-6524, Indiana Congressman Adair brought up the Indiana Samuel Wilson. An Indianapolis News story from March 31, 1955 was added to the Record. Trouble! This was disputed by Congressman Leo O'Brien, April 12, 1960, pages 7961-7962. In the Record for September 6, 1961, pg. 18230, O'Brien added this gem: Mr. Speaker, I may say the resolution before us now has nothing to do with the birthplace of Samuel Wilson. It falls squarely upon the one matter, on which the gentleman and I are in agreement, that the gentleman did live in Troy, N. Y. That is where he acquired the name "Uncle Sam." I may say that the other matters on which we are in disagreement are still to be determined by the historians, and I would not suggest that the House try to decide them today. Only Congress can do something like this--honor a Samuel Wilson, without stating which one he is! This is from the Congressional Record, September 6, 1961, pg. 18299: Mr. ADAIR (of Indiana). (...) As to where "Uncle Sam" was born or where his remains lie buried, the resolution makes no statement, nor takes any position. Mr. O'BRIEN of New York. If the gentleman will yield, the gentleman has made a very accurate statement. The Senate discussion of September 15, 1961 is at pg. 19628: Mr. RUSSELL. Has there not been some controversy as to where the man lived whose initials gave rise to the expression "Uncle Sam" as standing for this country? Mr. KEATING. That is true, and the Judiciary Committee decided to conduct hearings on the question. The committee sat for 2 days and had extended hearings, taking the testimony of historians and other witnesses. Many witnesses were heard. The concurrent resolution as it passed the Senate had in it a reference to the fact that Uncle Sam had lived for a time in Mason, N. H. When it went to the House side there was some controversy as to whether that was so, but the House finally enacted the concurrent resolution in the same form except that it struck out the words "Mason, New Hampshire" and a reference to Arlington, Mass. That action made it very unacceptable to my distinguished colleagues from New Hampshire, and that is the reason why the resolution had to be sent to conference. Oh boy. On September 18, 1961, pg. 20126, it was noted that Seba Smith of Maine introduced an imaginary character by the name of Major Jack Downing into stories starting 1830, and "Maj. Jack Downing was the prototype of 'Uncle Sam.'" Surely, the Uncle Sam bill would have to mention Maine as well! Somehow, something did get passed recognizing Troy, N. Y. as "Home of Uncle Sam." "Uncle Sam: Biography of a Symbol" appeared in the October 1962 issue of Country Beautiful and was dumped in the Congressional Record of May 23, 1963, pp. A3291-A3293. Further worthless remarks on "The Origin of Uncle Sam" were dumped in the Congressional Record of September 12, 1963, pp. A5773-A5774. In 1988, an "Uncle Sam Day" resolution officially passed Congress. All of this is based on the dubious testimony of an unnamed eyewitness to the War of 1812, recounting his memory in 1830! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:18:54 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Inauguration in PA: diplomatic opportunity Edinboro University of Pennsylvania (in NW PA, near Ohio) is inaugurating a president on Friday morning, September 12, and ADS is invited to sent a representative. Any ADS members interested? It's an opportunity to embody and enjoy the greater academic community. (We don't have a budget to pay your travel expenses, though.) Please reply directly to me if you'd like to take on this pleasant responsibility. - Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com Executive Secretary American Dialect Society ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 18:18:00 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Seeking permission to post book announcements (fwd) I vote "yes"--let them inform us this way--it is a lot easier to store than junk mail. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 23:56:44 -0400 From: David Carlson Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Seeking permission to post book announcements (fwd) Re: Book Announcements Yes David R. Carlson Springfield College Springfield MA ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Jul 1997 to 4 Jul 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 4 Jul 1997 to 5 Jul 1997 There are 5 messages totalling 85 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Hotlanta (4) 2. Pron Atlanta/Hotlanta ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 00:33:04 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Hotlanta "Hotlanta" is catching on as the nickname for Atlanta. Last summer, I heard it used often during the Olympics. It's not in any of the books I have, such as Paul Dickson's WHAT'S IN A NAME? (1996) or Michael D. Shook's horrible BY ANY OTHER NAME (1994). Did it originate with the Hotlanta River Expo (HRE), which was started in 1978 when 300 gay men floated down the Chattahoochie River? The HRE is August 7-10 this year, and it's gotten much larger. See their website at http://www.mindspring.com/~hotlanta/ourstory.htm. Anybody know of any earlier "Hotlanta" than 1978? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 08:18:02 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Re: Hotlanta On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Barry A. Popik wrote: Anybody know of any earlier "Hotlanta" than 1978? I have no written citations, but memory tells me that I have heard it since moving to Knoxville in 1974, initially from undergraduate students here at the university. Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process: Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA http://ljp.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 09:04:28 -0400 From: Peggy Smith dj611[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU Subject: Re: Hotlanta I lived in Atlanta during the 1974-75 school year and we used the expression "Hotlanta" then, only it was pronounced "Hotlanna". Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 09:08:07 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Pron Atlanta/Hotlanta On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Peggy Smith wrote: I lived in Atlanta during the 1974-75 school year and we used the expression "Hotlanta" then, only it was pronounced "Hotlanna". When I arrived at UTK, my students taught me that one may pronounce either "t" in Atlanta -- but never both. I don't recall a pronunciation lesson for "Hotlanta," but extension of the principle taught me would lead to "Hot-la-na" as the only possible pronunciation. Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process: Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA http://ljp.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 5 Jul 1997 17:55:16 -0500 From: "Randal D. Williams" RDW2101[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU Subject: Hotlanta Try listening to Little Feat's "Hotlanta," ca. 1974. An excellent live version can be found on the album _Waiting for Columbus_. Randal D. Williams Tenn. Tech. Univ. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Jul 1997 to 5 Jul 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 5 Jul 1997 to 6 Jul 1997 There are 2 messages totalling 71 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Hotlanta (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 02:12:50 -0500 From: Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: Hotlanta Hotlanta is also the title of an Allman Bros song from around 1975. Not sure which LP, but if anyone's really interested I'll go thru my old vinyl stuff and find out. Gregory J. Pulliam Illinois Institute of Technology Lewis Department of Humanities Chicago, IL 60616 gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.cns.iit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 6 Jul 1997 11:44:48 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hotlanta Little Feat and the Allman Brothers were fine suggestions. I checked out both web sites. Little Feat performed the song "Oh Atlanta" on three records, but "Hotlanta" is not in the lyrics. Pretty close, though: Well you can drop me off at Peachtree I got to feel that Georgia sun And women there in Atlanta They make you awfully glad you come. THE ALLMAN BROTHER BAND AT FILLMORE EAST has a song called "Hot 'Lanta." The song was recorded March 12-13, 1971. This is the earliest "Hotlanta" so far. I also wrote to the Atlanta Convention & Visitors Bureau (www.acvb.com) for further information. If they're like the New York Convention & Visitors Bureau, they'll never respond. The Fillmore East was a legendary rock & roll venue in New York City. After a long fight against real estate developers, the developers won. The Fillmore East has been or will be destroyed. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- "BITE" UPDATE: Connie Eble's COLLEGE SLANG 101 (1989) has "that bites" and "bite the big one" on page 95. On page 94, there is "bite moose," which comes with an illustration. If you see Connie, complement her on the "bite moose" illustration, which is certainly helpful in grasping that obtuse "bite moose" concept. "STARS AND STRIPES FOREVER" UPDATE: On Presidents Day in February, I posted the origin of the phrase "Stars and Stripes Forever" and wrote that I had suggested the 100th anniversary postage stamp for 1997. The 100th anniversary was May 14th. This weekend was July 4th. I went to my local post office; the stamp was announced for 1997 but has not yet come out. Obviously, they're waiting for Elvis's birthday in August. I filled out a complaint/compliment form in January about this, and got no response. In April 1997, I filled out a Freedom of Information Act request. All I wanted to know was who suggested the stamp, when's it coming out, and what happened to my suggestion (which mentioned that J. P. Sousa's grandson lived in my building). On May 21, Consumer Affairs Analyst Margaret Madison of the USPS in New York wrote that "Your inquiry is being referred to the Citizens' Stamp Advisory Committee....I am sure this matter will be given prompt and proper attention." I never heard back on my FOIL request. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Jul 1997 to 6 Jul 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 6 Jul 1997 to 7 Jul 1997 There are 12 messages totalling 252 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Golden Oldies (7) 2. Hotlanta (2) 3. Boyer or BOOyer (2) 4. RE Boyer or BOOyer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 00:04:22 -0400 From: "William H. Smith" wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATL.MINDSPRING.COM Subject: Golden Oldies When I told my wife that one of my students is using e-mail for a project on terms for the sex act, she asked me to search for terms that were in use in the fifties and have gone out of style. For example, "do it", "do her", could one "do him"? She was shocked to hear her mother say that a plant had "shot its wad", in ignorance of the sexual connotations (although the source of the metaphor is musketry). If you can remember that far back, let us know what you remember of terms for copulation (with restrictions on who could do what to whom) and genitalia. Bill Smith Piedmont College ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 01:15:11 -0400 From: "Johnnie A. Renick" Tenderrite[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Golden Oldies In a message dated 97-07-07 01:09:48 EDT, you write: remember that far back, let us know what you remember of terms for copulation (with restrictions on who could do what to whom) and genitalia. Bill Smith Make it.. have your way with her... down and dirty ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 08:39:49 -0400 From: Charles Boewe cboewe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JUNO.COM Subject: Re: Golden Oldies let us know what you remember of terms for copulation From the 1940s: To lay (M), to get laid (F) Poontang Nookie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 09:10:03 -0400 From: Peggy Smith dj611[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU Subject: Re: Golden Oldies First base, second base, third base, home run... Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:25:43 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Hotlanta On Sat, 5 Jul 1997, Barry A. Popik wrote: Anybody know of any earlier "Hotlanta" than 1978? I always thought this was a term that originated in the early 1970s among gay men who went to Atlanta from the surrounding states to party. At least, I remember it from that era. But I don't know if I have any published citations. I would check out the Atlanta Gay Press from that period if I really wanted to do a thorough job of lexicography on this one. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:32:05 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Golden Oldies I don't remember using "do him" for heterosexual interecourse in the 1950s. It always meant 'give him a blowjob' and was (or so I thought) homosexual slang. Maybe it was the language of prosititutes as well? Did you check the obvious slang dictionary sources before asking this question? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 11:36:13 PST8 From: Simonie Hodges sjhodges[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCGATE.HAC.COM Subject: Re: Hotlanta Just a sidenote to the Hotlanta conversation to add that a convention was recently held in Atlanta that was entitled "Totally Hotlanta", referring to the "Totally Hot" album released by Olivia Newton-John, for whose fans the convention was held. Simonie The following is an attached File item from cc:Mail. It contains information that had to be encoded to ensure successful transmission through various mail systems. To decode the file use the UUDECODE program. --------------------------------- Cut Here --------------------------------- begin 644 rfc822.txt M4F5C96EV960Z(&)Y(&-C;6%I;"!F F]M(&9W+65S,#4N:&%C+F-O;0T*1G)O M;2!O=VYE BU!1%,M3$!51T$N0T,N54=!+D5$50T*6"U%;G9E;&]P92U& F]M M.B!O=VYE BU!1%,M3$!51T$N0T,N54=!+D5$50T*4F5C96EV960Z(&9R;VT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] M;&ES=&UA:6PN8V,N=6=A+F5D=2`H6S$R."XQ.3(N,C,R+C$P72D-"B`[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]("`[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] M("`[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]("!B 2!F=RUE S`U+FAA8RYC;VT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*#[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]N."XT+S[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]N."XT*2!W:71H($53 M3510#0H[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]("`[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]("!I9"!604$R-C[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S,"!F;W([AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/'-J:&]D9V5S0$-#1T%412Y( M04,N0T]-/CL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]4W5N+"`V($IU;"`Q.3DW(#(Q.C`P.C$W("TP-S`P("A01%0I M#0I-97-S86=E+4ED.B`\,3DY-S`W,# P-#`P+E9!03(V.#,P0&9W+65S,#4N M:&%C+F-O;3X-"E)E8V5I=F5D.B!F F]M('5G82YC8RYU9V$N961U(&)Y(&QI M W1M86EL+F-C+G5G82YE9'4[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]*$Q33510(&9O B!7:6YD;W=S($Y4('8Q+C%A M*2!W:71H(%--5%`[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]:60[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/#`N1#DX13[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]X-#!`;&ES=&UA:6PN8V,N=6=A+F5D M=3X[($UO;BP[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]-R!*=6P[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE],3DY-R`P.C`P.C4Y("TP-#`P#0I296-E:79E9#H[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] M9G)O;2!51T$N0T,N54=!+D5$52`H3DI%(&]R:6=I;B!,25-44T525D!51T$I M(&)Y(%5'02Y#0RY51T$N1415("A,36%I;"!6,2XR8R\Q+CAC*2!W:71H($)3 M3510(&ED(#4V,S[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE][($UO;BP[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]-R!*=6P[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE],3DY-R`P,#HP,#HQ.2`M,#0P,`T* M1&%T93H[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]("`[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]($UO;BP[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]-R!*=6P[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE],3DY-R`P,#HP,#HQ.2`M,#0P,`T*4F5P M;'DM5&\Z($%M97)I8V%N($1I86QE8W0[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]4V]C:65T 2`\0413+4Q`54=!+D-# M+E5'02Y%1%4^#0I396YD97(Z($%M97)I8V%N($1I86QE8W0[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]4V]C:65T 2`\ M0413+4Q`54=!+D-#+E5'02Y%1%4^#0I& F]M.B!!=71O;6%T:6,[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]9&EG97-T M('!R;V-E W-O B`\3$E35%-%4E9`54=!+D-#+E5'02Y%1%4^#0I3=6)J96-T M.B`[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]0413+4P[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]1&EG97-T("T[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]-2!*=6P[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE],3DY-R!T;R`V($IU;"`Q.3DW#0I4 M;SH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]4F5C:7!I96YT R!O9B!!1%,M3"!D:6=E W1S(#Q!1%,M3$!51T$N0T,N *54=!+D5$53X-"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]`` end ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 12:39:57 -0400 From: "David A. Johns" djohns[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PEACHNET.CAMPUS.MCI.NET Subject: Re: Golden Oldies Speaking of expressions like "shot his wad," which were clearly sexual at one time but have become neutral, I was just getting used to hearing kids saying that something "sucks" when I got hit with the MCI commercial where a kid is calling another a "dork" -- which was a synonym for "penis" when I was a kid in the '50s. David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:01:39 -0400 From: "(Dale F. Coye)" Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Boyer or BOOyer Just met a guy from the Ozarks (S. Mo.) and we were talking about some folks named Boyer. He told me that in his neck of the woods there were lots of Boyers, but they (and he) pronounced it BOOyer, with the vowel of BOOK. 1) is this a widespread feature for this word, or limited to the Ozarks? 2) Does it extend to other OY words? (Toy, oil, Moyers, point) 3) Any theories on why it was raised? Dale Coye Princeton, NJ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:12:36 -0400 From: "Virginia P. Clark" Virginia.Clark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVM.EDU Subject: Golden Oldies let us know what you remember of terms for copulation From the mid to late 1940s: Go all the way ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 13:57:08 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Boyer or BOOyer Anecdotally, I'd have to say that's an aberration. My roots and my family are from southern Missouri, and except for the Arkansas-Missouri variation of the Southern accent, there's no reason except family preference that Boyer shouldn't be pronounced BOI-err. Looking at the way the jaw is set when that particular vowel is pronounced, though, does remind me of that peculiar variation of the Southern accent found in Missouri and Arkansas. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com -------------------------------------- Date: 7/7/97 1:10 PM To: Grant Barrett From: (Dale F. Coye) Just met a guy from the Ozarks (S. Mo.) and we were talking about some folks named Boyer. He told me that in his neck of the woods there were lots of Boyers, but they (and he) pronounced it BOOyer, with the vowel of BOOK. 1) is this a widespread feature for this word, or limited to the Ozarks? 2) Does it extend to other OY words? (Toy, oil, Moyers, point) 3) Any theories on why it was raised? Dale Coye Princeton, NJ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Jul 1997 21:03:51 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Boyer or BOOyer Dale Coyle asks: Just met a guy from the Ozarks (S. Mo.) and we were talking about some folks named Boyer. He told me that in his neck of the woods there were lots of Boyers, but they (and he) pronounced it BOOyer, with the vowel of BOOK. 1) is this a widespread feature for this word, or limited to the Ozarks? 2) Does it extend to other OY words? (Toy, oil, Moyers, point) 3) Any theories on why it was raised? 1) I am acquainted with Pete Boyer of Potosi, Missouri, a storyteller and one of the few remaining speakers of Missouri French. He says his family always said booYEA in French or BOOyer in English. Potosi is in the eastern part of the Ozark Plateau -- lead-mining area, what attracted the French to that part in 1730-50. I suspect this pronunciation is limited to the Boyers of Missouri and their friends, wherever they settled. 2) I'm ashamed to say that I haven't learned much about Missouri French, but it is related to Canadian dialects, I understand, since that's where the earliest Mississippi Valley French settlers came from -- before New Orleans became a port of immigration, while Mobile was still the seat of French colonial government. There's a story, apparently true, of how the Missouri French pulled a good one on the Governor (Cadillac?) what had come up from Mobile to check out rumors of silver in the area of Ste Genevieve. They made fun of his foppishness (probably his language too) and bamboozled him. After he returned home he found out that he had been had and was quite angry. (I've no doubt have unintentionally added some embellishments to the story.) 3) In view of 2), this vowel wasn't raised. It was not lowered in Missouri dialects, and maybe not in certain Canadian French dialects. 2),3)* Questions about dialect are often set up anachronistically. We know that current Parisian French came from earlier forms (likewise contemporary English), but people often want to know why the language of Cajuns or others has diverged from contemporary standard forms. (Answer: their clocks and calendars run backwards.) Similar questions have been asked about English on this List of Dialectologists. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Jul 1997 to 7 Jul 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 7 Jul 1997 to 8 Jul 1997 There are 14 messages totalling 294 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Golden Oldies (6) 2. Seeking permission to post book announcements (fwd) (2) 3. Hotlanta (2) 4. Book notices: Results 5. Golden Oldies/_Catcher in the Rye_ (2) 6. Bleach ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:59:37 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: Golden Oldies Charles Boewe cboewe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JUNO.COM writes: [...] From the 1940s: To lay (M), to get laid (F) I don't go that far back, but for me a male can "get laid" too, since the 60s or late 50s. Was that a change? It gives HIM, too, an intransitive form of "lay", while "lay" requires an explicit object. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 08:09:01 -0700 From: "A. Maberry" maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: Golden Oldies it may have already been mentioned, but i recall the phrase "do the deed" from the 50s or 60s. and there is always "get one's (M) pencil sharpened" which i heard in the early 70s. Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Mark Mandel wrote: Charles Boewe cboewe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JUNO.COM writes: [...] From the 1940s: To lay (M), to get laid (F) I don't go that far back, but for me a male can "get laid" too, since the 60s or late 50s. Was that a change? It gives HIM, too, an intransitive form of "lay", while "lay" requires an explicit object. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:12:22 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: Golden Oldies Holden Caulfield's expression in "Catcher in the Rye" was "give her the (old) time." I don't remember whether the "old" was optional or obligatory. I never heard this term myself outside of the book, and I'm not sure whether this is simply because I spent my adoloscent years in the Pacific Northwest and didn't attend a New England boarding school, or whether it was a literary creation of J.D. Salinger's. Peter McGraw Linfield College McMinnville, OR ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:47:55 -0400 From: Peggy Smith dj611[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU Subject: Re: Golden Oldies I don't think "give her the time" in _Catcher in the Rye_ (c. 1945, hence, too early for this study) meant intercourse. I think it was related to the expression "to make time with" which was closer in meaning to "make out" than "go all the way". I have the book here. It will take me a little time to find the passage. If it was used with "old Sally", there's no way he meant the more extreme of the two definitions. Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:03:15 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: Seeking permission to post book announcements (fwd) Book announcements, yes. Please DON'T take this as me volunteering! but if folks are worried about opening the floodgates to junk, we might should appoint a Book Editor who could receive and paw thru the announcements and post the cool ones (and put it on their CV)... --plp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:08:49 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: Hotlanta I moved to Athens in 1974, and we used "Hotlanta" pretty freely, both enviously (cause Athens was not) and also ironically, later when we got all sophisticated. I agree with Bethany but also think it could be pronounced without either "t" being realized as a /t/, something like: glottal stop - schwa - L - ae - nasal flap - schwa for the "Atlanta" regular version, and for "Hotlanta": h - a - glottal stop - L - ae - nasal flap -schwa I don't remember any special link with gay bars or discos, but do remember the notion being linked with the Underground. I suggest checking Creative Loafing or the earlier alternative rag Great Speckled Bird, if anyone can find copies... --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 15:49:47 -0400 From: Brenda Lester brenles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CODY.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Hotlanta There was a club called "Hotlanta," a venue for loud rock and roll around 77 or 78; my memory is dim, of course. On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Peter L. Patrick wrote: I moved to Athens in 1974, and we used "Hotlanta" pretty freely, both enviously (cause Athens was not) and also ironically, later when we got all sophisticated. I agree with Bethany but also think it could be pronounced without either "t" being realized as a /t/, something like: glottal stop - schwa - L - ae - nasal flap - schwa for the "Atlanta" regular version, and for "Hotlanta": h - a - glottal stop - L - ae - nasal flap -schwa I don't remember any special link with gay bars or discos, but do remember the notion being linked with the Underground. I suggest checking Creative Loafing or the earlier alternative rag Great Speckled Bird, if anyone can find copies... --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 14:50:53 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: Golden Oldies I'm pretty sure it DID mean "to go all the way." I remember it being used with some frequency in the book, but I specifically remember a scene recounted later by Holden in which he and his date were in the front seat and Holden's nemesis (I've forgotten his name) and another girl were in the back seat of a car (or possible vice versa). The other couple were making out rather heavily, Holden tells us: "I don't think he gave her the old time that night, but damn near--DAMN near!" (Quote not guaranteed verbatim, but damn near.) I don't have my copy of the book here--or at home, either, just now, since I lent it to the neighbor kid in a (probably vain) attempt to get him interested in good literature. Is there no one on the list who was a teenager in the Northeast back then and can therefore attest whether this was actual usage? Peter On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Peggy Smith wrote: I don't think "give her the time" in _Catcher in the Rye_ (c. 1945, hence, too early for this study) meant intercourse. I think it was related to the expression "to make time with" which was closer in meaning to "make out" than "go all the way". I have the book here. It will take me a little time to find the passage. If it was used with "old Sally", there's no way he meant the more extreme of the two definitions. Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 19:14:35 -0400 From: TERRY IRONS t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Book notices: Results Hello ADSers, I have been away from the net a few days to celebrate the anniversary of the declaration of our right to revolution against an unjust power (the real meaning of Jefferson's press release, as I was recently reminded). So the results are in on the recent vote about book notices: YES 12 NO 1 Actually, Zwicky's no should count for about 6 ballots, as he makes an excellent point. The information is available elsewhere and to clutter up Ads-L with same. . . Virginia Clark's concern is that the notices be scholarly. Peter Patrick wants us to know that he isn't going to write them. It seems then that ADS-L will now allow book notices to be posted. In addition to what the people from various publishers provide, it would be nice if notices of publications by ADS members, which are included in PADS, would be posted on the list for discussion by members. Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:04:18 -0400 From: "David A. Johns" djohns[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PEACHNET.CAMPUS.MCI.NET Subject: Re: Golden Oldies At 02:50 PM 7/8/97 -0700, you wrote: Is there no one on the list who was a teenager in the Northeast back then and can therefore attest whether this was actual usage? Well, I was a teenager in western Massachusetts in the late '50s, and I never heard it. David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:44:14 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Golden Oldies/_Catcher in the Rye_ Peggy Smith writes: _Catcher in the Rye_ (c. 1945, hence, too early for this study) Actually, _Catcher in the Rye_ was published in 1951. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 20:55:25 -0400 From: Peggy Smith dj611[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU Subject: Re: Golden Oldies/_Catcher in the Rye_ Ron, Oops. I guess it's past time for reading glasses. I can't see the small print. The 1945 date under the printing history for _Catcher_ is for a story in "Collier's". Another story is dated 1946, and the first publication of the book as a whole is 1951. But I wonder if the slang isn't more post-war 40's New York smart-aleck, than pre-hipster 50's? Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:21:46 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Bleach A commercial just flashed past for Chlorox bleach. Several women (sexist) commenting on the smell of bleach. One asks rhetorically, "Would I use more if it smelt better?" I found that interesting. You might expect to hear "smelt" somewhere back in the hills, but not from the mouth of an obviously middle class woman in a commercial made for national distribution. Yet it had to be intentional. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 8 Jul 1997 22:33:49 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Seeking permission to post book announcements (fwd) Yes, with some requirements: 1. SUBJECT HEADER--Something like "BOOK:...." will suffice. 2. LENGTH--Not the entire catalog on my e-mail, please!! Make it reasonably short. For the entire catalog, just list your web site, but don't put it all on our e-mail! 3. FREQUENCY--Publishers should be allowed a posting a month, or so. Again, we don't want the entire catalog, just important new works. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Jul 1997 to 8 Jul 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 8 Jul 1997 to 9 Jul 1997 There are 14 messages totalling 339 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Bleach (3) 2. nasal flaps? (4) 3. "smelt" 4. Golden Oldies (2) 5. clorox or whatever (3) 6. RE Re: Golden Oldies ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 06:26:34 -0400 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA Subject: Re: Bleach I found that interesting. You might expect to hear "smelt" somewhere back in the hills, but not from the mouth of an obviously middle class woman in a commercial made for national distribution. Yet it had to be intentional. i dunno, i'd say 'smelt'. perhaps i've just been living among the britishy-speaking for too long, though. lynne ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy, Senior Lecturer Department of Linguistics phone: (+27-11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: (+27-11)716-4199 Johannesburg 2050 e-mail: 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:20:03 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: nasal flaps? Peter Patrick writes: nasal flap his tongue must be longer than mine if he can flap it against his nose . . . or does his nasal cavity have some moving part that mine doesn't? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:40:19 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: nasal flaps? Ron, Up here in Michigan they call nasal flaps 'snorts' (like what a bull does). Can you guess what they call anal trills? Us Louisvillians didn't know none of this stuff. Good thing I come up North. DInIs Peter Patrick writes: nasal flap his tongue must be longer than mine if he can flap it against his nose . . . or does his nasal cavity have some moving part that mine doesn't? Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:59:02 -0400 From: Brenda Lester brenles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CODY.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Bleach My _American Heritage Dictionary_ has smelt as the pass tense of smell. On Tue, 8 Jul 1997, Duane Campbell wrote: A commercial just flashed past for Chlorox bleach. Several women (sexist) commenting on the smell of bleach. One asks rhetorically, "Would I use more if it smelt better?" I found that interesting. You might expect to hear "smelt" somewhere back in the hills, but not from the mouth of an obviously middle class woman in a commercial made for national distribution. Yet it had to be intentional. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 09:37:03 PDT From: barbara harris GRADMA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVVM.UVIC.CA Subject: Re: Bleach Re "smelt": I'm pretty sure I say "smelt," and also "spelt" and "learnt" (though possibly only in rapid speech), but I would never spell any of them that way - except, of course, the fish. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:54:43 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: nasal flaps? No, nasal flaps are actually nasalized flaps, I suppose. In American English they typically occur after a stressed vowel when a nasal-initial alveolar cluster happens before another vowel. Standard example is "wanna". They're flaps. And they're nasal. So what's the problem? --plp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:58:56 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: "smelt" At 09:37 AM 7/9/97 -0700, you (barbara harris GRADMA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVVM.UVIC.CA ) wrote: Re "smelt": I'm pretty sure I say "smelt," and also "spelt" and "learnt" (though possibly only in rapid speech), but I would never spell any of them that way - except, of course, the fish. As often in ads, it's possible that "smelt" was used by the copywriter to give an "upscale" image to the product and its users, since past forms in -t rather than -ed sound British or old-fashioned (thus upsacle) to mainstream speakers of US English. (You can find tons of no-longer-current -t pasts in 19C poetry, some of which is still read in schools sometimes; Romantic/19C poets often imitated 16/17C spellings, or imitated earlier-19C revivers of 16/17C usages.) I suspect it was not intended as a US regionalism, even though it can be that as well (this is what the poster of the original query wondered about) -- unless there's strong evidence in the ad that the speakers are to be identified as "having an accent" for some product- or image-related reason. Also, "smelled" is a pretty strong, unpleasant word to most people, with lots of bad associations. So maybe "smelt" seemed nicer to the people who decided on the wording. Why not ask them? The bleach company has an ad agency, and a real person handles the account and knows who wrote the copy. They might even find it interesting to talk for a minute about their decision-making process -- though what they had in mind and how viewers take what they do are not necessarily identical of course. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:11:48 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Golden Oldies Speaking of expressions like "shot his wad," which were clearly sexual at one time but have become neutral, I was just getting used to hearing kids saying that something "sucks" when I got hit with the MCI commercial where a kid is calling another a "dork" -- which was a synonym for "penis" when I was a kid in the '50s. David Johns Another one of these is the VP "down to the short strokes", which as I under- stand (and it's hard to think of an alternative source) is a metaphor for the last stages of intercourse. A quick check of Nexis indicates 137 occur- rences from various newspapers, of which the first few involved references to the final stages of consummation of contract negotiations, legislation pacts (in particular the recent agreement between the states and tobacco companies), sales and other financial transactions, agreements over where to host the Super Bowl, and so on. No awareness of the source is ever acknowledged--totally dead metaphor? Fairly parallel to 'shoot one's wad', except that there's no "innocent" original in this case parallel to the ordnance source in that one. --Larry P.S. I agree with Mark's take on 'lay' and 'get laid': while Robert Baker's classic 1971 paper "Pricks and Chicks: A Plea for Persons" (in Vetterling- Braggin's anthology _Sexist Language_) lists 'lay' along with 'fuck', 'screw', 'do it to' [as opposed, of course, to the symmetric 'do it with'], 'have', 'bang', etc., with the asymmetric sex verbs (where the subject is +male or, as Ron would remind me, +penetrator and the object = +female or +penetratee), it changed some time ago for many speakers and is now role- neutral syntactically, at least with respect to 'get laid' and largely with respect to transitive 'lay'. I think Kim or Chris can also be 'good/nice/lousy lays' with no entailments as to their sex or gender. One of Baker's symmetric sex verbs previously unmentioned in this thread is the rather dated 'ball'. For me, "Kim balled Chris" doesn't imply anything about who did what to whom (other than that they went all they way in doing it). The more natural syntax was "Kim and Chris balled". In either case, there may be a lingering implica- tion that the participants were [+stoned], but that's clearly pragmatic. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 13:53:58 +0000 From: "E.W. Gilman" egilman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WEBSTER.M-W.COM Subject: clorox or whatever I have just been browsing through some of our evidence for "smelt" as the past of "smell" and find that most of the recent stuff comes from British writers, although a couple from American magazines may be Americans. It was not uncommon in older American English. I leave you with this odoriferous sample: The whale was not a long one, physically speaking--say thirty-five feet--but he smelt much longer; he smelt as much as a mile and a half longer, I should say, for we travelled about that distance beyond him before we ceased to detect his fragrance in the atmosphere.--Mark Twain EWG ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 14:08:00 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Re: Golden Oldies From: Larry Horn Another one of these is the VP "down to the short strokes", which as I under- stand (and it's hard to think of an alternative source)... Golf? Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 12:18:37 -0800 From: jarthurs jarthurs[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVIC.CA Subject: Re: clorox or whatever I have just been browsing through some of our evidence for "smelt" as the past of "smell" and find that most of the recent stuff comes from British writers, although a couple from American magazines may be Americans. It was not uncommon in older American English. I leave you with this odoriferous sample: The whale was not a long one, physically speaking--say thirty-five feet--but he smelt much longer; he smelt as much as a mile and a half longer, I should say, for we travelled about that distance beyond him before we ceased to detect his fragrance in the atmosphere.--Mark Twain EWG I'm confused: is this thread about spelling or speaking? I see "smelled" but I hear "smelt". Don't you? TTFN! Dr. James Arthurs, Advisor, Applied Linguistics Programmes, Department of Linguistics, University of Victoria, Box 3045, Victoria, B.C. Tel: (250) 721-7432) Canada V8W 3P4 Fax: (250) 721-7423) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 15:55:13 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: clorox or whatever At 12:18 PM 7/9/97 -0800, you wrote: I'm confused: is this thread about spelling or speaking? I see "smelled" but I hear "smelt". Don't you? I have been surprised at how many people find "smelt" perfectly normal. My experience with "smelt" has been threefold: 1. Rustic - I et it 'cause it smelt so good. 2. Archaic - as in the MT example. 3. British - but there's no accounting for them. I swear, sometimes they act as if they inventedd the languagge. But you bring up the question of written vs. spoken. I say "smelled", and I say it quite clearly (unless it is late at night). Over the last ten to twenty years I have watched the migration of the "d" into a "t" sound. So now I am wondering about this scenario. In 19th Century America it was spelled and pronounced "smelt". Then the "smelled" spelling and pronounciation took over. Now, though the word is still "smelled" in both spelling and pronounciation, but spoken as "smelt" not referring back to an earlier form but reflecting a modern consonent shift. In other words (this gets existential), it is still "smelled", but "smelled" is pronounced "smelt". Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 18:11:59 EDT From: "Donald C. Rogers" rogers22[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JUNO.COM Subject: Re: nasal flaps? On Wed, 9 Jul 1997 10:20:03 -0400 Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM writes: Peter Patrick writes: nasal flap his tongue must be longer than mine if he can flap it against his nose . . . or does his nasal cavity have some moving part that mine doesn't? Are you saying nasal TAP? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 9 Jul 1997 22:09:14 -0400 From: "William H. Smith" wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATL.MINDSPRING.COM Subject: Re: Golden Oldies At 11:32 AM 7/7/97 -0400, Ron Butters wrote: .... Did you check the obvious slang dictionary sources before asking this question? No, the holdings at Piedmont College are rather small, and library budgets are getting smaller (and perhaps smaller still if Richard Jewel has his way), and I didn't have time to drive "Out of the hills of Habersham/ Down through the valleys of Hall" to the 'Plastic City" (Athens). Anyway, my wife said, "You can find these things on the internet." Besides, it opened an interesting thread. In contribution to my own query, when I first met Karl Nicholas he came to me after I had presented a paper, introduced himself, and said, "I bet you thought 'cock' referred to female anatomy until you entered the service." He was right. Is anyone else familiar with that usage? Some ten years later Karl reported that when he was in Jamaica a little girl asked if he wanted to see her 'cockle' (for money, of course). Bill Smith Piedmont College ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Jul 1997 to 9 Jul 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 9 Jul 1997 to 10 Jul 1997 There are 11 messages totalling 224 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. smelled/smelt 2. Golden Oldies (2) 3. nasal flaps? (4) 4. RE Re: Golden Oldies 5. nasal = nasalized? (2) 6. TAKEOVER SPECIAL: Hong Kong or Hongkong? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 00:49:05 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: smelled/smelt The facts seem pretty well documented in the standard sources. Most American dictionaries give SMELT as an alternative for SMELLED but do not label it as "back in the woods somewhere" or whatever. Some will tell you that SMELT is preferred in England. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 08:57:49 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: Golden Oldies In contribution to my own query, when I first met Karl Nicholas he came to me after I had presented a paper, introduced himself, and said, "I bet you thought 'cock' referred to female anatomy until you entered the service." He was right. Is anyone else familiar with that usage? Some ten years _Cock_ 'the female genitalia' is a well-known Southernism; see DARE and HDAS. It's almost totally unheard of outside the south, except in Black E. The rapper "Li'l Kim," who is known for her explicit lyrics, uses it in a recent song. Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 09:08:09 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Golden Oldies In contribution to my own query, when I first met Karl Nicholas he came to me after I had presented a paper, introduced himself, and said, "I bet you thought 'cock' referred to female anatomy until you entered the service." He was right. Is anyone else familiar with that usage? Some ten years _Cock_ 'the female genitalia' is a well-known Southernism; see DARE and HDAS. It's almost totally unheard of outside the south, except in Black E. The rapper "Li'l Kim," who is known for her explicit lyrics, uses it in a recent song. Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com I have a dim memory of the word with that meaning from junior high days in San Antonio, TX, in the mid-60s. Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:36:30 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: nasal flaps? Are you saying nasal TAP? Flap or tap, I honestly didn't know what Peter meant--still don't, despite Dinis P's elegant explanation equating this with a snort. Surely PP wasn't saying that his pronunciation of ATLANTA requires a snort! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 14:51:17 -0500 From: "Salikoko S. Mufwene" s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: nasal flaps? I had my doubts about the existence of nasal flaps but checked with a phonetician, a colleague of mine, and she says that nasal flaps common and "flap" is indeed the term. In the relevant pronunciation of ATLANTA "nasal flap" is apparently the correct term. How about that, Peter? We are on the same side this time! Sali. ******************************************************* Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu University of Chicago 773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924 Department of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html ******************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 13:59:25 -0700 From: Garland D Bills gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNM.EDU Subject: Re: nasal flaps? On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Ron Butters wrote: Flap or tap, I honestly didn't know what Peter meant--still don't.... Ron: We're talking about an alveolar nasal with the rapidity of articulation that makes it a tap or flap rather than a stop. Thus, for me, "sentence" has a nasal tap/flap while "penance" has a nasal stop. For some people, this phenomenon might be a nasalized vowel and a "regular" (non-nasal) alveolar tap, but for me it's definitely a nasal tap. Garland D. Bills E-mail: gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unm.edu Department of Linguistics Tel.: (505) 277-7416 University of New Mexico FAX: (505) 277-6355 Albuquerque, NM 87131-1196 USA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 15:57:50 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: nasal flaps? At 02:51 PM 7/10/97 -0500, you wrote: I had my doubts about the existence of nasal flaps but checked with a phonetician, a colleague of mine, and she says that nasal flaps common and "flap" is indeed the term. In the relevant pronunciation of ATLANTA "nasal flap" is apparently the correct term. How about that, Peter? We are on the same side this time! Orally they are flaps, with nasalization -- just like a nasal consonant such as m is a stop but also nasal. Perhaps "nazalized flap" would be less misconstruable. But since one can't flap anything articulatorily in the nasal cavity whether as flap or stop (tell me if I'm wrong!!!), nasal flap could probably only mean a flap with nazalization. Is that right? (I didn't pay as much attention in phoentics as I might have done -- reminded me of sight-reading in music, which I also didn't appreciate at the time.) Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 16:43:05 -0400 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: RE Re: Golden Oldies Short strokes=of the pen? Down to dotting the last i's and crossing the last t's? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 21:44:05 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: nasal = nasalized? PPatrick says, "They're flaps. And they're nasal. So what's the problem?" I guess the problem with "nasal flap" is that it isn't synonymous for me with "nasalized flap"--e.g., a velar fricative is a fricative made with the velum, so a nasal flap "should" be one that is made with the nose (cf. nasal flap : alveolar flap = nasalized vowel : *alveolarized vowel). But, hey, I don't mean to be nasty PRESCRIPTIVIZER (not to be confused with *PRSECRIPTIVER) and limit the artistic freedom of the phonological nominclaturizers (not to be confused with nominclaturers). ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 23:23:40 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: TAKEOVER SPECIAL: Hong Kong or Hongkong? One of these was taken over by China this month: Hong Kong Hongkong HongKong Hong-Kong Hongk'ong. There's a very little bit about this in the Winter 1996 AMERICAN SPEECH, "Transmission Languages and Source Languages of CHinese Brrowings in English" by Andrew J. Moody, pg. 413. I bank at Marine Midland, which is owned by the Hongkong and Shanghai Bank Corp., or HSBC. A check of News Abstracts shows: Hong Kong--2,663 hits. Hongkong--86 hits (mostly HSBC). A recent book title is _T'aiwan, Hongk'ong, Mak'ao (=Taiwan, Hong Kong, Macao)_ by Chae-gi Hi (1991). It probably should be Hongkong, but Hong Kong is here to stay. Just don't let the Chinese get Hawai'i. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------- A trip to Hong Kong (and the rest of the far east) in the late 1980s changed my life! After looking at the snake specials, I never ate meat again. My mother didn't eat meat. My father ate meat, but not recently (he was in a nursing home the past five years). Anyway, my sister and I have been cleaning up the mess of a family home after the deaths of our parents. I looked in the downstairs freezer, and, uh, it's loaded with steaks.... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 23:49:49 EDT From: DMC Rogers rogers22[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JUNO.COM Subject: Re: nasal = nasalized? PPatrick says, "They're flaps. And they're nasal. So what's the problem?" I guess the problem with "nasal flap" is that it isn't synonymous for me with "nasalized flap"--e.g., a velar fricative is a fricative made with the velum, so a nasal flap "should" be one that is made with the nose (cf. nasal flap : alveolar flap = nasalized vowel : *alveolarized vowel). But, hey, I don't mean to be nasty PRESCRIPTIVIZER (not to be confused with *PRSECRIPTIVER) and limit the artistic freedom of the phonological nominclaturizers (not to be confused with nominclaturers). You made your point with the distinction between nasal/nasalized, but the additional examples are interesting. Thanks ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Jul 1997 to 10 Jul 1997 *********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 10 Jul 1997 to 11 Jul 1997 There are 7 messages totalling 124 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. nasal flaps? (4) 2. SMELT/SMELLED [was Bleach] 3. so who tightened your velopharyngeal portal? 4. TAKEOVER SPECIAL: Hong Kong or Hongkong? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:41:55 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: nasal flaps? Nasal flap: apico-alveolar flap/tap preceded and followed by nasalized vowels. When I say 'Atlanta' with a nasal flap, the tongue contact is more like that of my /n/ than my /t/. The quibble might be over whether the contact is the gesture of the /n/ or the /t/, since the "suppressed" /n/ is realized as nasalization in the preceding vowel. Progressive nasalization (on the vowel after the flap) might argue for total loss of the /t/, leaving surface remnants of only /n/. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 09:15:33 -0700 From: Garland D Bills gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNM.EDU Subject: Re: nasal flaps? On Thu, 10 Jul 1997, Donald M. Lance wrote: Nasal flap: apico-alveolar flap/tap preceded and followed by nasalized vowels. Well and good, Don, but I bet you can't do that without leaving the velum lowered for the flap/tap! Otherwise, you described quite well the sound we're concerned with. It is indeed a nasal flap/tap. If someone wants to call it a "nasalized" flap/tap, fine; that's accurate. (But they -- or he, if you prefer -- should also be willing to characterize [n] as a "nasalized stop". Garland D. Bills E-mail: gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unm.edu Department of Linguistics Tel.: (505) 277-7416 University of New Mexico FAX: (505) 277-6355 Albuquerque, NM 87131-1196 USA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 15:00:37 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: SMELT/SMELLED [was Bleach] After hearing all this I'm beginning to think that I use SMELT transitively ("George smelt the fish") and SMELLED intransitively ("George smelled like a fish"). Well, come to think of it, it may be more subtle than; that: if SMELL is transitive but not purposive/intentional, it is also likely to be SMELLED ("George smelled a harsh odor that seemed vaguely dangerous" vs. "George bowed and smelt [of] the rose"). Is this one of those cases where introspection provides data that wasn't there before one began to introspect--or is the two-handled engine of my grammatical sensibility as subtle as Wordsworth's sense of God in a kholrabi? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 15:09:36 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: so who tightened your velopharyngeal portal? Garland writes: We're talking about an alveolar nasal with the rapidity of articulation that makes it a tap or flap rather than a stop. Thus, for me,"sentence" has a nasal tap/flap while "penance" has a nasal stop. For some people, this phenomenon might be a nasalized vowel and a "regular" (non-nasal) alveolar tap, but for me it's definitely a nasal tap. Given (I think that this is true) that most speakers of American English keep their velopharyngeal ports open unless they HAVE to close them, aren't all AE flaps more or less "nasal(ized)"? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 15:19:33 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: nasal flaps? Boy, you never can tell what will start a thread! though I have actually learned from this one. (No offense taken, Ron-- friends don't flap their noses at each other!) Don's point is exactly the one that I usually think of when "nasal flap" comes up. This environment is a neutralizing one for the famous TD-deletion, since you can't necessarily tell whether there is or ever was a /t/ there-- so it has to be excluded when quantifying. Otherwise, w.r.t. nasal(ized) fl(t)aps I am like Thurber's famous bear: I can take 'em or leave 'em alone... --plp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 15:33:25 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: Re: TAKEOVER SPECIAL: Hong Kong or Hongkong? ...then there's Xiang Gang (- / tones) in putonghua... Given your luck, Barry, I wouldn't try sending the results of your research to the new city government... --peter p. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 19:34:10 -0400 From: Robert Howren howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EMAIL.UNC.EDU Subject: Re: nasal flaps? I haven't yet seen in the discussion of nasal flaps any suggestion that there might be a distinctive difference between nasalized and nasal flaps. One of the linguistic remnants of my South Midland upbringing (northwest Georgia) in my phonology is a three-way contrast among _batter_, with a straightforward oral palatoalveolar flap; _banter_, with the vowel nasalized by the deleted /n/ and the rightward spreading of the nasality feature to yield a slightly nasalized flap and following syllabic; and _banner_, which has a nasalized vowel preceding a fully nasal flap -- an allophone of an intersyllabic nasal stop. The rightward spread of nasality, in this case as in that of banter , slightly nasalizes the final syllabic. Any support from other South Midland speakers? --Bob | | | Robert Howren howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]email.unc.edu | | Chapel Hill, NC | | | ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Jul 1997 to 11 Jul 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 11 Jul 1997 to 12 Jul 1997 There are 5 messages totalling 222 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. nasal flaps? (3) 2. lingo (fwd) (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 22:33:28 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: nasal flaps? Garland Bills wrote: Well and good, Don, but I bet you can't do that without leaving the velum lowered for the flap/tap! Otherwise, you described quite well the sound we're concerned with. It is indeed a nasal flap/tap. If someone wants to call it a "nasalized" flap/tap, fine; that's accurate. (But they -- or he, if you prefer -- should also be willing to characterize [n] as a "nasalized stop". Right. It would be very difficult if not impossible to close off the naso-pharynx during the instant of the flap but have it open for preceding and following nasalized vowels. It is also possible to have a flapped /t/ preceded and followed by nasalized vowels. If one has a true "nasal twang" and leaves the naso-pharyngeal passage open while saying everything after the release of /p/ in 'pity', a "nasalized [t]" is produced, with the apico-alveolar closure of a /t/ rather than an /n/. Now that I've thought about the "nasalized t-flap," I would argule that the pronunciation of 'Atlanta' -- at least as I say it -- indeed has a briefly articulated nasal obstruent, which I don't mind calling a nasal flap. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 00:16:50 -0500 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: nasal flaps? I believe I have the flaps Bob describes in banner, banter, and batter, and I'm a mixture of inland north/north midland. Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 01:00:32 -0500 From: Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.IIT.EDU Subject: lingo (fwd) I know a lot of these have already made their way onto this list, but I think there are enough new ones to warrant this unedited forward. Greg Pulliam X-Sender: penny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pop-in Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:11:52 -0400 To: fys[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]chaos.cc.ncsu.edu (F.Y. Sorrell), ALeBourgeois[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cgsh.com, josephm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]access.digex.net, whodat[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dockingbay.com, flanman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]eos.ncsu.edu, buz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wilma.colorado.edu From: pennyleb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ncsu.edu (Penny LeBourgeois) Subject: lingo You can't be cool if you're using outdated lingo. Here's the latest from the corporate and Silicon Valley jungles. "percussive maintenance" = the fine art of whacking a device to get it working "prairie dogging" = in companies where everyone has a cubicle -- something happens, and everyone pops up to look "blowing your buffer" = losing your train of thought "yuppie food stamps" = twenty dollar bills from an ATM "ribs 'n' dick" = a budget with no fat, as in "we've got ribs 'n' dick and we're supposed to find another $20,000 for memory upgrades" "square headed girlfriend/or boyfriend = computer "treeware" = manuals and documentation "umfriend" = sexual relationship, as in "this is Dale, my...um...friend" "batmobiling" = putting up emotional shields (from the retracting armor that covers the batmobile, as in "she started talking marriage and he started batmobiling") "beepilepsy" = afflicts those with vibrating pagers characterized by sudden spasms, goofy facial expressions and loss of speech "betamaxed" = when a technology is overtaken in the market by inferior but better marketed competition, as in "Microsoft betamaxed Apple right out of the market" "cobweb" = a WWW site that never changes "going postal" = totally stressed out and losing it like postal employees who go on shooting rampages "high dome" = egghead, scientist, PhD "elvis year" = the peak year of popularity, as in "1993 was Barney the dinosaur's elvis year" "generica" = fast food joints, strip malls, sub-divisions, as in "we were so lost in generica that I couldn't remember what city it was" "irritainment" = annoying but you can't stop watching, e.g. the O.J. trial "meatspace" = the physical world (as opposed to the virtual), also "carbon community", "facetime", "F2F", "RL" "salmon day" = swimming upstream all day to get screwed in the end "siliwood" also "hollywired" = the coming convergence of movies, interactive TV and computers "world wide wait" = WWW Penny LeBourgeois Center for Advanced Electronic Materials Processing North Carolina State University NCSU Box 7920 Raleigh, NC 27695 phone = (919) 515-5051 FAX = (919) 515-5055 Buz Smith Assistant Director, Administration Optoelectronic Computing Systems Center E-mail: buz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]colorado.edu (303) 492-7129 Greg ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 10:41:33 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: nasal flaps? PPatrick writes: No offense taken, Ron-- friends don't flap their noses at each other! I promise to snort no more (especially not at friends) on the subject of the putatively nonobligatory morpheme {-ize}. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 12 Jul 1997 13:08:57 -0400 From: Gareth Branwyn GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: lingo (fwd) In a message dated 7/12/97 12:51:07 PM, gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.cns.iit.edu (Greg Pulliam) wrote: I know a lot of these have already made their way onto this list, but I think there are enough new ones to warrant this unedited forward. Greg Pulliam X-Sender: penny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pop-in Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 11:11:52 -0400 To: fys[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]chaos.cc.ncsu.edu (F.Y. Sorrell), ALeBourgeois[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cgsh.com, josephm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]access.digex.net, whodat[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dockingbay.com, flanman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]eos.ncsu.edu, buz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wilma.colorado.edu From: pennyleb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ncsu.edu (Penny LeBourgeois) Subject: lingo You can't be cool if you're using outdated lingo. Here's the latest from the corporate and Silicon Valley jungles. "percussive maintenance" = the fine art of whacking a device to get it working "prairie dogging" = in companies where everyone has a cubicle -- something happens, and everyone pops up to look "blowing your buffer" = losing your train of thought [rest of list deleted] That list, an email virus I've received dozens of times, is swipped from my Jargon Watch column in Wired. The terms, of course, are not mine, but the definitions are. Obviously, I don't mind it being passed around in email, but it's gone much farther. Stripped of any attribution, the list has shown up in The Washington Post (twice!), The Economist, the Microsoft corporate newsletter and several dailies. I find it ironic that this would happen when traditional media seems to spend so much time these days saying disparaging things about online media and how the information you find online can't be trusted. A quick Web search by these publishers on any of the terms would have picked up my Jargon Watch column and the appropriate copyright information. As I told The Washington Post: "I always wanted to be in The Post, but I assumed that my name would appear with my work." Gareth -------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Co-author of the _Happy Mutant Handbook_ and _Internet Power Toolkit_ Author of _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ (HardWired) ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Jul 1997 to 12 Jul 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 12 Jul 1997 to 13 Jul 1997 There are 2 messages totalling 43 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. lingo (fwd) 2. Ground for Floor ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 10:20:35 -0400 From: e morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.COM Subject: Re: lingo (fwd) Automatic digest processor (Gareth Branwyn) wrote: ------------------------------ That list, an email virus I've received dozens of times, is swipped from my Jargon Watch column in Wired. I've rec'd it six times myself. Even from my sis, who is an Episcopal minister in Michigan and logs on once a year.... As I told The Washington Post: "I always wanted to be in The Post, but I assumed that my name would appear with my work." I think being immortalized in an email virus beats being in the Post any old day. Sheesh, man, you're up there with the Modem Tax and the Good Times virus. Of course, the best part will be when your list comes around again every year or two. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:45:28 -0400 From: "Margaret G. Lee -English" mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.HAMPTONU.EDU Subject: Ground for Floor Has anyone noticed within the last several years that many people refer to the "ground" when they really mean the "floor"? For example, "She dropped the bowl on the ground" (on the kitchen floor). When did *ground* stopped being "terra firma" and started being the inside bottom surface of a room ? Margaret G. Lee, Ph.D. Department of English Hampton University Hampton, VA 23668 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Jul 1997 to 13 Jul 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 13 Jul 1997 to 14 Jul 1997 There are 9 messages totalling 179 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. email virus (2) 2. Ground for Floor 3. email for tom murray (2) 4. Request for help: Defrancophonization 5. Golden Oldies (2) 6. Ghoti ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 22:51:49 -0500 From: Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.IIT.EDU Subject: email virus I've never heard this "email virus" term before, at least not as applied to this sort of thing--a forwarded and reforwarded and reforwarded item. How long has this term/use been around? Gareth--sorry if I misappropriated your defs--I'd have included the attribution if my source had given it. Greg ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 03:20:18 -0400 From: Gareth Branwyn GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: email virus In a message dated 7/14/97 6:08:43 AM, gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.cns.iit.edu (Greg Pulliam) wrote: I've never heard this "email virus" term before, at least not as applied to this sort of thing--a forwarded and reforwarded and reforwarded item. How long has this term/use been around? "Email virus" has been used to describe those virus hoax messages that float through the Net every few months (e.g. the "Good Times" virus). A message about an alleged virus becomes the virus itself. The Good Times virus message was around for months. This "lingo" message also appears to have taken on a life of its own. Gareth--sorry if I misappropriated your defs--I'd have included the attribution if my source had given it. No harm done. It is frustrating when the list appears in print, but I don't mind it circulating through email. Proper attribution would have been nice, but it's far too late for that particular list. Now the question is, how long will it continue to circulate and how many of the words are experiencing wider usage as a result? Gareth -------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Co-author of the _Happy Mutant Handbook_ and _Internet Power Toolkit_ Author of _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ (HardWired) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:43:50 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: Ground for Floor "Margaret G. Lee -English" mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.HAMPTONU.EDU asks Has anyone noticed within the last several years that many people refer to the "ground" when they really mean the "floor"? For example, "She dropped the bowl on the ground" (on the kitchen floor). When did *ground* stopped being "terra firma" and started being the inside bottom surface of a room ? A long time ago, at least in some localities. I remember being irritated with my grandmother when she said it, and she died maybe fifteen years ago. But I'm thinking about exchanges during my childhood or teen years, during the '50s and '60s, and Nana was born about 1892. -- But maybe it's spreading now. -- Mark This document was created by voice with Dragon Systems' NaturallySpeaking. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 13:11:17 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: email for tom murray Ach, sorry to ask yet again, but, I need an email address for Tom Murray (Tom, hi, you there?) that is something other than [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ksuvm Does anyone have the [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]juno.SOMETHING address? of a ksu with an edu? Thanks, beth simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 14:08:00 CDT From: Edward Callary TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MVS.CSO.NIU.EDU Subject: Re: email for tom murray sure, I have: tem[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ksuvm.ksu.edu ****************************************************************** Edward Callary Phone: 815-753-6627 Editor, NAMES: Fax: 815-753-0606 A Journal of Onomastics e-mail: ecallary[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu English Department Northern Illinois University DeKalb, Il 60115-2863 ****************************************************************** Visit the homepage of the American Name Society at http://ssie.binghamton.edu/admin/anshomep.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:45:55 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Request for help: Defrancophonization This just in. I can't think of an answer, but maybe someone on ADS-L can. Please reply to Mr. Broer at Jfbroer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, and maybe to ADS-L too. - Allan Metcalf ----------------------------------------------- Strictly Speaking - Speech Communication Training Dear Sir: I recently received an e-mail from an individual who visited my web page. They speak French as a first language and are having difficulty with being understood given their accent. Would you recommend any particular programs or coursed that could help. My area of expertise does not address this, but I would like to help them. John F. Broer Director - Strictly Speaking www.talkgood.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:03:44 -0500 From: wachal robert s rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Subject: Golden Oldies And let's not forget the transformation of LSMFT ("Lucky Strike means fine tobacco") to "Let's stop, my finger's tired." Bob Wachal ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:15:21 -0500 From: wachal robert s rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Subject: Golden Oldies Does anyone talk about "getting his ashes hauled' anymore? Bob Wachal ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 18:35:06 -0400 From: Fred Shapiro fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Ghoti George Bernard Shaw is often said to have put forth _ghoti_ as a humorous English spelling of the word _fish_. I have never seen a precise source given for Shaw's discussion of _ghoti_, however. Can anyone supply such a source? Fred R. Shapiro Associate Librarian for Public Services and Lecturer in Legal Research Yale Law School Editor Oxford Dictionary of American Legal Quotations fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Jul 1997 to 14 Jul 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 14 Jul 1997 to 15 Jul 1997 There are 5 messages totalling 170 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Golden Oldies 2. McDonalds vs. the OED? (3) 3. Ground for Floor ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:00:49 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Golden Oldies And let's not forget the transformation of LSMFT ("Lucky Strike means fine tobacco") to "Let's stop, my finger's tired." Bob Wachal Excuse me, but that's "Loose straps mean flabby tits." --which reminds me: Downtown where tobacco's made Winston tastes like a hand grenade. No filter, no paper, Just dirty rotten paper. Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:03:39 -0400 From: Gareth Branwyn GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: McDonalds vs. the OED? Thought ADS-L readers would find this interesting. This is a joke, right? The OED wouldn't publish such emphemeral slang, would it? I went to the McLibel site, and while fascinating, found nothing about this alleged case. Gareth ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:11:06 +0100 From: "i.m.mckay" cllv13[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccsun.strath.ac.uk To: anarchy-list[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cwi.nl Subject: McJob for McCrunch? (fwd) Subject: McD Menacing the Oxford English Dictionary Date: July 13, 1997 From: Dazza ta4091[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]qmw.ac.uk The UK paper TheIndependent on Sunday, 22 June, carried a story called "OED chickens out over 'McJob'" The Oxford English Dictionary has been advised by lawyers not to include the word "McJob" in its next issue, writes Mark Rowe. McD's success in the McLibel trial has made the OED wary that the multinational may seek to flex its muscles in other areas. "McJob", to the great displeasure of McDonald's, is widely used as a euphemism for any form of dead-end, low paid employment. The OED believes the word is in common enough useage to be included within its esteemed covers. The OED says it has yet to make a decision on "McJob", but lawyers have suggested it drop the word on legal grounds. OED Chief editor John Simpson said he intended to use the word in future, but not in the next 3000-word supplementary edition, due out at the end of the summer. "We have taken legal advice, since we are aware that companies may be unhappy and object to the tone of such words," he said. "To withdraw any word is against our policy. We have not yet made a decision." The definition: McJob n. colloq. (freq. derog) [the name of the McDonalds chain of fast-food restaurants, regarded as a typical source of such emplyment + JOB n. Prob. not a direct reference to the programme mentioned in quot. 1985, but rather based on McDonalds' general practice of using Mc- as a preformative element in a range of proprietary product names] A poorly paid job with few prospects, esp. one taken by an overqualified worker because of a shortage of other prospects or lack of ambition. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- U.S. McLibel Support Campaign Email dbriars[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]world.std.com PO Box 62 Phone/Fax 802-586-9628 Craftsbury VT 05826-0062 http://www.mcspotlight.org/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- To subscribe to the "mclibel" electronic mailing list, send email To: majordomo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]world.std.com Subject: not needed Message: subscribe mclibel To unsubscribe, change the message to: "unsubscribe mclibel" -------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Co-author of the _Happy Mutant Handbook_ and _Internet Power Toolkit_ Author of _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ (HardWired) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:19:40 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: McDonalds vs. the OED? McDonald's will just have to get used to things like McJob, I guess. Lately, we have seen McVegan, McMansion, and McParody. Last week's Newsweek offered McGirls for the imitators of the Spice Girls. Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:16:29 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: McDonalds vs. the OED? McDonald's will just have to get used to things like McJob, I guess. Lately, we have seen McVegan, McMansion, and McParody. Last week's Newsweek offered McGirls for the imitators of the Spice Girls. See esp. G. Lentine and R.W. Shuy, "_Mc:_ Meaning in the Marketplace," American Speech 65 (1990) 349-66. I'm amazed that the OED backed down over this; I also think that it's an eminently suitable entry for the OED to handle. Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:23:39 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Ground for Floor "Margaret G. Lee -English" mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.HAMPTONU.EDU asks Has anyone noticed within the last several years that many people refer to the "ground" when they really mean the "floor"? Mark Mandel replied: A long time ago, at least in some localities. I remember being irritated with my grandmother when she said it, and she died maybe fifteen years ago. I doubt that it's new. I've caught myself saying "It fell to the ground" upon dropping something inside a house and "It fell to the floor" upon dropping something outside. What if it fell to the lawn and someone said it fell to the ground? Would you seriously chide the speaker by asking if it fell all the way through the grass? In military parlance, "Hit the deck" can refer to ground, lawn, floor, or perhaps even rafters in some weird circumstancs. If a parent wants the kids to get up, s/he might say "Hit the deck" even if the house doesn't have a deck. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Jul 1997 to 15 Jul 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 15 Jul 1997 to 16 Jul 1997 There are 11 messages totalling 282 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Ground for Floor (2) 2. serial killer (4) 3. Collaborative Research Grants from NEH 4. ADS Annual Meeting: Poster sessions 5. "serial killer" vs. "spree" 6. "make,turn or become" 7. Test ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:33:07 -0400 From: Peggy Smith dj611[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU Subject: Re: Ground for Floor There are many expressions that have worked their way into the language which use the word ground. The meaning is closer to bottom, foundation, or base, rather than outside dirt layer of earth. For example: ground floor= walk-in level of a building, ground zero, proving ground, playground, testing ground, high ground, low ground... These are a few off the top of my head. P. Smith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 09:41:47 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: serial killer Was anyone else struck by the use of "serial killer" as the label for the person suspected of murdering Versace? It seemed to me a kind of semantic limiting (as opposed to extension), in that, the man they're searching for is accused of/appears to have killed a number of people and done so one after the other, but isn't "serial killer" (or killing) different than the sum of the parts. He knew the first two personally. The third was (forgive me) "practical" , and the fourth, again, someone he knew? Is "serial killer" a way of displacing homophobia? beth ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 10:43:56 -0400 From: Brenda Lester brenles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CODY.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Ground for Floor I'm plowing through George Eliot's _Mill on the Floss_ (1860), in which the floor is always referred to as the ground. On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Peggy Smith wrote: There are many expressions that have worked their way into the language which use the word ground. The meaning is closer to bottom, foundation, or base, rather than outside dirt layer of earth. For example: ground floor= walk-in level of a building, ground zero, proving ground, playground, testing ground, high ground, low ground... These are a few off the top of my head. P. Smith ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:02:49 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: serial killer At 09:41 AM 7/16/97 EST, simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU wrote: Was anyone else struck by the use of "serial killer" as the label for the person suspected of murdering Versace? I have heard at least two criminal professionals (which is different from professional criminals - usually) object to this label, saying that he does not fit the definition. He is, according to the lingo, a spree killer. Not that it makes a lot of difference to the victims. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:49:46 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: serial killer At 11:02 AM 7/16/97 +0000, you (Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET ) wrote: At 09:41 AM 7/16/97 EST, simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU wrote: Was anyone else struck by the use of "serial killer" as the label for the person suspected of murdering Versace? I have heard at least two criminal professionals (which is different from professional criminals - usually) object to this label, saying that he does not fit the definition. He is, according to the lingo, a spree killer. Not that it makes a lot of difference to the victims. I heard "spree killer" used on at least one of the oldline networks (CBS, NBC, ABC) last night, but it's true that most are using "serial killer." Maybe this is because the latter term is simply much more familiar to people. Perhaps the copywriters are just trying to express the basic idea that this is a string of murders by one person, and feel that "serial killer" (though it usually means a killer of strangers) is the only term for a series-murderer (n.b., series/serial) that is in wide circulation. I don't recall hearing "spree killer" as a technical term till yesterday, and a general audience might feel it has inappropriately positive connotations (partying, etc.), though of course "spree killer" is based on "robbery spree" and the like. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 12:05:45 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: serial killer CBS national radio network news used "spree killer" in the first sentence of its noon (EDT) broadcast. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:01:12 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Collaborative Research Grants from NEH Please Post The National Endowment for the Humanities announces a program for the support of original research in the humanities*. Deadline for applications is September 1. COLLABORATIVE RESEARCH Collaborative Research grants support original research undertaken by a team of two or more scholars or research coordinated by an individual scholar that because of its scope or complexity requires additional staff or resources beyond the individual's salary. Eligible projects include research leading to the preparation of scholarly publications that break new ground or offer fresh perspectives; editions of works or documents that are of value to humanities scholars and general readers and have been either previously inaccessible or available only in inadequate editions; annotated translations into English of works that provide insight into the history, literature, philosophy, and scientific and artistic achievements of other cultures; and conferences addressing a specific set of research objectives on a topic of major significance to the humanities. Applicants must make a convincing case for the importance of the project, describe sound research methods and a practical plan of work, and demonstrate that staff and institutional resources appropriate to the goals of the project are available and committed. These grants support full-time or part-time activities for periods of up to three years. Support is available for various combinations of scholars, consultants, and research assistants; project-related travel; and technical support and services. All grantees are expected to publish or in other ways to disseminate the results of their work. Awards normally range from $10,000 to $200,000, and the use of federal matching funds is encouraged. Federal matching funds are released when a grantee secures gift funds from eligible third parties. Because of the limited funds available for support of research, the Endowment normally can contribute only part of the funds needed to carry out projects. Individuals and nonprofit institutions and organizations in the United States are eligible for support. To be eligible to receive NEH funding, institutional applicants must have obtained tax-exempt status from the Internal Revenue Service. U.S. citizens are eligible to apply as individual applicants, as are foreign nationals who have been legal residents in the United States or its jurisdictions for a period of at least the three years immediately preceding the submission of the application. Deadline for applications is September 1. Information and application guidelines and forms are available at the NEH website www.neh.fed.us or by contacting the program office. Division of Research and Education Programs 1100 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, Washington, DC 20506 Telephone: 202/606-8210 E-mail: research[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]neh.fed.us *The act that established the National Endowment for the Humanities says "The term 'humanities' includes, but is not limited to, the study of the following: language, both modern and classical; linguistics; literature; history; jurisprudence; philosophy; archaeology; comparative religion; ethics; the history, criticism, and theory of the arts; those aspects of social sciences which have humanistic content and employ humanistic methods; and the study and application of the humanities to the human environment with particular attention to reflecting our diverse heritage, traditions, and history and to the relevance of the humanities to the current conditions of national life." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:02:36 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: ADS Annual Meeting: Poster sessions At the ADS Annual Meeting, we've never had poster sessions, though our presentations often involve maps and charts that lend themselves especially to that mode. Our call for papers (Ahem, reminder: deadline August 15) makes no mention of poster sessions, but if anyone would like to try, I suspect we'd find it congenial. (Our program chair is Ronald Butters, if you want to discuss it with him.) The Association for Asian Studies has this information on poster sessions. You might want to look at the web site mentioned: Marilyn Levine at U. of Idaho, in particular, has been a great proponent of posters and has worked tirelessly to promote the format's possibilities. She organized a poster session website (http://www.ets.uidaho.edu/levine/poster) prior to this year's meeting that contained a wealth of advice on making poster presentations, pictures and examples, and even a tutorial. - Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com Executive Secretary American Dialect Society ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 13:56:51 -0400 From: David Bergdahl bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: "serial killer" vs. "spree" For example: in the following passage both are used. My intuition is that spree is ill-chosen because it suggests the killing done in a single act as Richard ? killing all those nurses or a gunman openning fire in a McDonald's. Serial also suggests to me a string of murders in the same locale. What's distinctive here is not the sexual orientation of the murderer and his victim--which may be accidental--but that the murders are located in spots so far apart with no apparent "logic" to them, other than Richard Pryor's famous rendition, "They was home." *** Miami police seek serial killer in Versace murder Police and the FBI hunted an alleged serial killer and male prostitute they believe murdered fashion king Gianni Versace as royalty, stars, friends and admirers mourned the man who dressed the world's beautiful people. Versace was shot twice in the head on the steps of his Miami Beach mansion by a lone gunman Tuesday morning. Miami Beach Police Chief Richard Barreto said lawmen were searching for Andrew Cunanan, 27, already wanted in connection with four previous murders during a two-week, cross-country killing spree that began in Minneapolis in April. For the full text story, see http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=3954852-c26 Versace house joins grisly roster of murder sites, For the full text story, see http://www.merc.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=3950759-205 ===================================================================== == David Bergdahl Ellis Hall 114c Ohio University / Athens Associate Prof Fall Qtr office hrs: 9 TTh & by appointment English Dept tel: (614) 593-2783 fax: (614) 593-2818 bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl ===================================================================== == ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 19:54:49 -0500 From: Ditra Henry D-Henry1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEIU.EDU Subject: Re: "make,turn or become" In a conversation with someone , I used the phrase or question, when did you make 21? someone responded that they were unfamiliar with this use of make because they use either turn or become. Is this unfamiliar to others or does someone know the sats on this already? Ditra ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 19:52:04 -0700 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET Subject: Test I haven't received anything at all from this usually chatty group in at least a week. Have I gotten kicked off the list somehow inadvertantly? Is the list not functional at the moment? Is anybody out there? Rima ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Jul 1997 to 16 Jul 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 16 Jul 1997 to 17 Jul 1997 There are 14 messages totalling 344 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. ADS Annual Meeting: Poster sessions (2) 2. Test 3. As best as I can remember (3) 4. Bade, long and short (2) 5. Bade 6. Beans (2) 7. circe/sirsi/circi 8. pre-consonantal /l/ in AAVE 9. Hudson Valley ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 00:35:10 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: ADS Annual Meeting: Poster sessions Allan--I think this is a good idea, unless it causes people to do poster sessions INSTEAD OF papers. But if that should happen we can simply propose that they give papers rather than p.s.'s, right? I have an abstract for a paper of my own, by the way. Should I send it to you? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:56:08 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: Test Rima, Your message is coming through, and there have been messages in the last week, though it's been less active than at various times in the past. Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:41:24 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: As best as I can remember Watching the Senate Finance Committee hearings just now (I don't have much of a life), an attorney asked, "As best as you can remember . . ." It seems to me that in the last few years this phrase has almost completely replaced "as well as", even among well educated speakers. It grates on my ears. Am I wrong to think that this is grammatically incorrect, that you cannot compare a superlative? Is it language inflation? Or am I just being picky? Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:36:36 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Bade, long and short I've been asked - Is the pronunciation of bade (past tense of bid) controversial? . . . . Is it a dialect issue, a class issue, or a thing indifferent? Is long a driving out short a? My answer is that DARE is silent on this; has no entry for bid (v) or bade at all. Nor have I heard of any such controversy. I suspect there's a modern spelling pronunciation encroaching on a traditional one. But have I missed something? Is there patterned variation, or controversy? - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:37:24 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: ADS Annual Meeting: Poster sessions Dear Ron, But if that should happen we can simply propose that they give papers rather than p.s.'s, right? Sure. I was just tossing out an idea. I have an abstract for a paper of my own, by the way. Should I send it to you? Yes, that'll be helpful; so I can get abstract to LSA for the meeting handbook, and for our own NADS. By the way, so far I have two more proposals for the annual meeting; Michael Montgomery on "alternative _one_", and Margaret Mishoe and Boyd Davis on quotatives in the South. I'll be sending batches to you as the deadline gets closer. Best wishes - Allan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:41:46 -0700 From: "A. Maberry" maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: As best as I can remember it grates on me too. "to the best of your recollection ..." sounds fine. language inflation? maybe it's just a conflation of the two phrases. allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Duane Campbell wrote: Watching the Senate Finance Committee hearings just now (I don't have much of a life), an attorney asked, "As best as you can remember . . ." It seems to me that in the last few years this phrase has almost completely replaced "as well as", even among well educated speakers. It grates on my ears. Am I wrong to think that this is grammatically incorrect, that you cannot compare a superlative? Is it language inflation? Or am I just being picky? Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:03:59 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: Bade, long and short I've been asked - Is the pronunciation of bade (past tense of bid) controversial? . . . . Is it a dialect issue, a class issue, or a thing indifferent? Is long a driving out short a? My answer is that DARE is silent on this; has no entry for bid (v) or bade at all. Nor have I heard of any such controversy. I suspect there's a modern spelling pronunciation encroaching on a traditional one. But have I missed something? Is there patterned variation, or controversy? There is indeed something of a controversy about this. The older form is /baed/ (that is, with an ash, homophonic with _bad_ 'not good'). Older dictionaries (W2, Century) list only this pronuncation; Fowler 1926 and Evans 1957 specify it as well. I think that the pronunciation /beid/ (rhyming _made_) is quite common today, and is probably increasing in frequency. The /beid/ pronunciation is, I assume, a spelling pronunciation; usage conservatives regard it as an error. Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:21:52 EDT From: Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Bade The long a pronunciation, as Jesse suggests, is probably a spelling pronunciation (how often do you hear "bade" these days) either by analogy with words such as "made" "fade" etc or by influence of phonics. As I understand it from my elementary language arts students who take a course in phonics, the rule to use is, a vowel before a single consonant and a final silent 'e' is long. Exs., hid, hide, mad, made, bad, bade? Does this apply to forbade as well? It is more likely to occur, I think, than bade? -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:29:28 EDT From: Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Beans I was out picking the first batch of beans in my garden today, and I wondered where the name for the variety I was picking came from. I know about snap beans and string beans (having done both, string and snap'em, that is). I have some Blue Lake beans coming on later, which I recognize as a commercial name. And then there is your good old Kentucky wonder pole bean. What I was picking are half-runners. There are now many varieties of half runner in terms of seed name (mountaineer, white, etc) Does any one know where the name "half runner" for a kind of green originated? How widespread is the use of this term for a kind of green bean, beyond seed catalogues and truck garden road side vendors? -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:36:49 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WKU.EDU Subject: Re: Beans This is one question I had to throw out when I compared my fieldwork to Guy Lowman's because it became clear that terms I'd collected, which were often things like bush bean pole bean half-runners (and which I assumed referred to the way they grow for all 3) were not on the same order of categorization as snap bean string bean green bean Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 15:01:03 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: As best as I can remember Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net asks: Watching the Senate Finance Committee hearings just now (I don't have much of a life), an attorney asked, "As best as you can remember . . ." It seems to me that in the last few years this phrase has almost completely replaced "as well as", even among well educated speakers. It grates on my ears. Am I wrong to think that this is grammatically incorrect, that you cannot compare a superlative? Is it language inflation? Or am I just being picky? That expression grates on my ears too (for an identifiable reason: a particular person who uses it) -- and, yes, it is "illogical" or "ungrammatical" if one expects traditional grammar to set the standard for logic and grammar (matches the logic of the peson referred to above). Recently I've been going through research and publications from the first half of this century (1890s to 1950s) and have seen the expression often in both correspondence and publications. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:23:48 -0500 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: circe/sirsi/circi From the Stumpers list: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:43:24 -0400 (EDT) Information Line infoline[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ce1.af.public.lib.ga.us stumpers-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]crf.cuis.edu ?circe or sirsi or circi Can anyone provide documentation for a colloquial usage, regionalism or archaic word, pronounced "circe" or "sirsi", etc., which is supposed to mean a small gift brought to a host(ess) in return for hospitality? We've checked some standard dictionaries & old-word books, but not Merriam-Webster 2nd ed., since we don't own it. The Dict. of Amer. Reg. Eng., Vol. 1, lists "circi,circe: see sirsee", but apparently the "S" volume of DARE is not yet published. I found nothing in the Archives. Douglas McCown Information Line Dept. Atlanta-Fulton Public Library 1 Margaret Mitchell Square Atlanta, GA 30303 Standard disclaimers apply. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 19:26:06 -0400 From: "(Dale F. Coye)" Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: pre-consonantal /l/ in AAVE I was listening to a presentation on grant writing yesterday and the presenter, a highly educated African-American, used /l/-less forms in words like film, milk, but what surprised me was that the word "results" sounded almost like "resorts," that is, the /l/ was getting /r/-like somehow. Does anyone know more about this? Dale Coye Princeton, NJ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:18:45 -0500 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: Hudson Valley I've run into a couple of problems in looking up the development of my native dialect (Hudson Valley). This is, of course, something which would never happen to a professional linguist. :) 1. The original dialect study seems to have been conducted on the assumption that "urban doesn't count". This is for a region which contains two of the three oldest cities in New York State. And which has had economic ties with New York City -- and, to a lesser extent, Philadelphia. 2. The variety of Dutch most spoken in the Hudson Valley probably had some differences from standard Dutch. Are there any written sources? The nearest I've found is a study of "Jersey Dutch" -- not the same area, and centuries later. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Jul 1997 to 17 Jul 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 17 Jul 1997 to 18 Jul 1997 tatus: U X-Mozilla-Status: 2001 There are 9 messages totalling 249 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. pre-consonantal /l/ in AAVE (2) 2. Bade, long and short (2) 3. circe/sirsi/circi 4. SCRATCH THAT LAST MESSAGE (2) 5. more for bade (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:13:06 -0400 From: Jack Chambers chambers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHASS.UTORONTO.CA Subject: Re: pre-consonantal /l/ in AAVE I think that l-less form of 'film' and 'milk' has a velar approximant (in IPA an upside down m with a tail on the right side) before the final consonant. The velar approximant is what's left of a dark l if you don't make the alveolar contact. In Cdn Eng and lots of other accents, it can occur finally and preconsonantally but not in all environments. Before a following coronal noncontinuant, the /l/ has to retain its coronality. So you never get the velar approximant in 'belt', 'guilt', gold, guild, etc. In final position, it never occurs in collocations such as 'hill top', 'pull toy' or 'kill time'. It does occur freely across the word boundary with noncoronals, as in 'ball game' and 'pill box'. (I wrote about this for the ADS centennial meeting at Berkeley in 1989, and revised the paper at Allan's request in 1995, but so far the proceedings are still in press. Or maybe not.) So if the AAVE version had the same constraint, then the "l-lessness" of the word 'results' must have been a different, unrelated thing. Jack Chambers ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 10:39:16 -0400 From: "(Dale F. Coye)" Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bade, long and short It is extremely controversial in the theatre. In every Shks production I= 've been involved with there is a lengthy discussion on how this word should = be pronounced. I address this controversy in my forthcoming book "Pronounci= ng Shakespeare's Words: A Guide from A to Zounds" (another controversial wor= d)- look for it from Greenwood in 1998. Here's an excerpt, but I would only = add to what Jesse said, that some orthoepists in the late 18th century recommended the long A, and Wyld believed that it was lengthened in Early= Mod Eng. from the short OE form, as was spake and (he says) sate, though I'm = not convinced that either sat or bade were lengthened then-- it could be due = to the flexible orthography of the period. When you look at words that are definitely short, they also show up with e on the end from time to time. The excerpt is from a section on spelling pronunciations: The Survey ref= ers to a fairly random sample of Shk professors in the US, CN, and the UK I conducted for this book. Bade was once a much more commonly used word than it is today and was pronounced =A6bad=A6. In most dictionaries in the early part of the twen= tieth century this was the only pronunciation given, but at that time, as peopl= e became increasingly literate and the pronunciation faded from the collect= ive memory, =A6bayd=A6, based on spelling and in existence for at least a cen= tury, rapidly gained ground. The Survey shows that in the United States =A6bay= d=A6 is rarely used by those professors born before 1940, but is preferred by hal= f of those born after that date. In keeping with this change among educated speakers, about twenty years ago dictionaries began to include =A6bayd=A6 alongside =A6bad=A6, it being now deemed an acceptable standard pronuncia= tion, though some traditionalists would disagree.=20 (In fact traditionalists froth at the mouth when they hear it rhyming wit= h MADE). I also did an email survey of Princeton grad students and found th= at about 90% rhyme it with MADE from the US and Canada). Dale Coye Princeton NJ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 11:13:59 EST From: Boyd Davis FEN00BHD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU Subject: Re: circe/sirsi/circi Born/raised KY, in NC last 3 decades-- I have heard this all my life, but more in NC than in KY; assume it is from surprise (I had a mental picture of its being spelled 'sursie') which is sometimes said as 'susprise' when in this context (the only one in which I have heard it): One wheedles in order to obtain one, or promises one as if placating a young, fond, foolish recipient - or intimate, in a teasing manner. I assume it could also be used as a jocular-ish semi-threat, as in 'I'll give you a __' ˘if you don't watch out/be careful/stop doing X...) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:06:49 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: pre-consonantal /l/ in AAVE Jack Chambers writes: I wrote about this for the ADS centennial meeting at Berkeley in 1989, and revised the paper at Allan's request in 1995, but so far the proceedings are still in press. Or maybe not. This is definitely "in press"--it will be the 1996 PADS issue, ed. by Allan M etcalf. The 1997 PADS (Wolfram et al. on Ocracoke, NC) will be out also this year (under my general editorship). All ADS members will find this in their mailboxes soon, and the rest of you can purchase it from U of Alabama Press. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:26:01 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Bade, long and short But if the traditional spelling is /baed/ rather than /beyd/, why did they spell it bade and not bad in the first place? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:29:42 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: SCRATCH THAT LAST MESSAGE A few minutes ago Ron Butters wrote: But if the traditional spelling is /baed/ rather than /beyd/, why did they spell it bade and not bad in the first place? What he meant to write was: But if the traditional ***PRONUNCIATION*** is /baed/ rather than /beyd/, why did they spell it bade and not bad in the first place? SORRY ABOUT THAT, FOLKS. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:31:06 -0400 From: TERRY IRONS t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: SCRATCH THAT LAST MESSAGE On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, Ron Butters wrote: But if the traditional ***PRONUNCIATION*** is /baed/ rather than /beyd/, why did they spell it bade and not bad in the first place? Some one else may look up the history more specifically, but I can report that the preterit form "bade" is the correct AS conjugation for past indicative second singular and past subjunctive 1-3 singular. "Bad" is 1,3 singular, "badon" 1-3 plural. Somehow the second person form apparently replaced the others. Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:13:12 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: more for bade At 01:31 PM 7/18/97, you (Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu) wrote: Some one else may look up the history more specifically, but I can report that the preterit form "bade" is the correct AS conjugation for past indicative second singular and past subjunctive 1-3 singular. "Bad" is 1,3 singular, "badon" 1-3 plural. Somehow the second person form= apparently replaced the others. OED2 on the long-term development; on bade, see the preterit of II, the second of the two originally distinct verbs (in what follows, _ represents a - in the OED): bid, v. Pa. tense bad, bade, (b=E6d), bid. Pa. pple. bidden, bid. Here there are combined two originally distinct verbs; viz. I. b=E9odan; beden, bede. Forms... [deleted here in order to save space and= in the interests of fair use]. II. biddan; bidden, bidde; bid. Forms: 1 biddan, 2_5 bidden, (2_3 biden, 3 bedden), 3_6 bidde, 4_6 bydde, (4 bedde, bide), 4_5 bidd, 4_6 byd, (5 byde), 4_ bid. pa. tense sing. 1 b=E6d, 2_9 bad, 3_5 badd, 4 baad, 4_6 badde, (6= Sc. bald), 4_ bade; also 3_6 bed, 4 bedd, 5 bede, Sc. baide; also 6 bidde, bydd, 7_9 bid. pl. 1 b=E6don, 2_3 beden, 3_5 bede; also 3 badden, 4_5 baden, 4_9 bad, bade; also 6_9 bid. pa. pple. 1_5 beden, 3_5 -in, -yn, (y)bede, 4_5 bedun, 4 bedd; 3_ bidden, (4 -in, 5 bed, byden, 6 bad), 7_9 bid. But why do 20C speakers tend to pronounce "bade" as rhyming with the phonetically parallel past-tense "made"? Is it possible that in addition to assimiliating "bade" to the more common spelling/pronunciation correspondence seen in made/fade/trade/etc., people simply have no sense of hearing "bade" used in speech, and find it offputting that such a rare word should sound like another, common word -- and a different part of speech at that (the adjective "bad"). Homophones are less confusing when both words are pretty well known. "She b=E6d me go"? or "She bade me go"? Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 14:20:17 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: more for bade I see a couple of html diacriticals did not come through on the last= message: =3DE6 is =E6 (digraph) =3DE9 is =E9 (e with acute accent) Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Jul 1997 to 18 Jul 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 18 Jul 1997 to 19 Jul 1997 There are 2 messages totalling 42 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. LIBRARY REVIEW: NYPL renovations 2. QUERY: poma lift ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:01:19 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: LIBRARY REVIEW: NYPL renovations The New York Public Library is undergoing renovations for two years. You need a pass to go to Gottesman Hall to collect a book--like anyone else would hang around there for any other reason? I requested a book that was in the annex. I was told it would be there the next day; I gave them an extra day and it still wasn't there. Be warned. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------- I'm writing this at an Internet Cafe in Amsterdam. THis is truly a strange place--it has both AOL and hash. In the rare case that I run for President and someone asks me if I inhaled, I have two witnesses who can swear under oath that they don't remember ANYTHING. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 15:51:47 -0400 From: Orin Hargraves OKH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: QUERY: poma lift At Rocky Mt. ski resorts I remember a sort of ski lift, what some dictionaries call a surface lift, that the skier straddles while being dragged on skis up the mountain. I don't find the term poma lift (pronounced as if spelled pomma) in any dictionary, unless I'm spelling i= t wrong. Can anyone tell me if this is a trademark, or if not, what its derivation is? Thanks, Orin Hargraves ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Jul 1997 to 19 Jul 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 19 Jul 1997 to 20 Jul 1997 There are 2 messages totalling 48 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. help in finding an article 2. QUERY: poma lift ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 14:24:09 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: help in finding an article Very sorry to bother the list with this, but... Does anyone have the title (or anything) of a collection that includes an article by Monica Heller, called "Bonjour Hello?" If so, please contact me at simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu thanks! beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 22:03:37 -0400 From: "Virginia P. Clark" Virginia.Clark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVM.EDU Subject: Re: QUERY: poma lift At 03:51 PM 7/19/97 -0400, Orin Hargraves wrote: At Rocky Mt. ski resorts I remember a sort of ski lift, what some dictionaries call a surface lift, that the skier straddles while being dragged on skis up the mountain. I don't find the term poma lift (pronounced as if spelled pomma) in any dictionary, unless I'm spelling i= t wrong. Can anyone tell me if this is a trademark, or if not, what its derivation is? _RH_, unabridged, 2d ed., has the following entry: "Poma lift. Trademark. A ski lift having a disklike support, placed between the legs, against which a skier leans while being pulled uphill. Also Pomalift." Sometime between 1955 and 1957, what was supposed to be the first Poma lift in the U.S. was installed at Burke Mountain in northern Vermont. Riding it for the first week or so that it operated was fairly exciting--it lifted people (and their skis, of course) off the snow for the first twenty feet or so. I don't think many of them are still operating; I'd like to know if there are some. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Jul 1997 to 20 Jul 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 20 Jul 1997 to 21 Jul 1997 There are 11 messages totalling 361 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Welsh (2) 2. Melungeons (3) 3. HTML diacritics and such (3) 4. pre-consonantal /l/ in AAVE 5. Dutch request 6. press etymology ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:02:11 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Welsh Dear Folks, I am off the list as I try to finish off this summer session, but one of my colleagues would appreciate some help with Welsh. She has a Welsh pony and wants to give it a Welsh name. Its English name is Make a Wish. How would one say that in Welsh? Please reply to the address below or forward this query to someone who knows Welsh. Wayne Glowka Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:36:31 -0500 To: wglowka From: sdimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu (Sandy Dimon) Subject: Welsh The pony's name is Make A Wish. If you find a translation, I'll be grateful. If not, you can bring your kid out to sit on him anyway. She'd enjoy it. Any time we're home is fine. Cheers, Sandy Sandi Dimon Georgia College & State University ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:54:15 +0000 From: Sali Tagliamonte st17[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YORK.AC.UK Subject: Re: Welsh DYMUNO (pronounced 'da-mee-no') means "to wish or desire" according to my colleague Ros Temple. On Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:02:11 -0500 ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (American Dialect Society) wrote: Received: via tmail-4.1(5) for st17; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:08:27 +0100 (BST) Received: from lendal.york.ac.uk by mailer.york.ac.uk via ESMTP (950511.SGI.8.6.12.PATCH526/940406.SGI) for st17[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unix.york.ac.uk id NAA20267; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:08:27 +0100 Message-Id: 199707211208.NAA20267[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mailer.york.ac.uk Received: from listserv.ja.net by lendal.york.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:05:35 +0100 Received: from listserv (130.246.132.24) by listserv.ja.net (LSMTP for Windows NT v1.1a) with SMTP id 0.2A54D080[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]listserv.ja.net ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:08:22 +0100 Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 08:02:11 -0500 Reply-To: American Dialect Society ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Sender: American Dialect Society ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Welsh Comments: cc: sdimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Mail.GAC.PeachNet.EDU To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Dear Folks, I am off the list as I try to finish off this summer session, but one of my colleagues would appreciate some help with Welsh. She has a Welsh pony and wants to give it a Welsh name. Its English name is Make a Wish. How would one say that in Welsh? Please reply to the address below or forward this query to someone who knows Welsh. Wayne Glowka Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 12:36:31 -0500 To: wglowka From: sdimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu (Sandy Dimon) Subject: Welsh The pony's name is Make A Wish. If you find a translation, I'll be grateful. If not, you can bring your kid out to sit on him anyway. She'd enjoy it. Any time we're home is fine. Cheers, Sandy Sandi Dimon Georgia College & State University Sali Tagliamonte E-mail: st17[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]york.ac.uk Department of Language URL: http://www.york.ac.uk/~st17/ and Linguistic Science Office phone:+44 (0)1904 432 656 University of York Dept. phone: +44 (0)1904 432 652 Heslington, YORK, YO1 5DD Dept. Fax: +44 (0)1904 432 673 Home phone: +44 (0)1904 635 812 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 10:23:58 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Melungeons An AP story in the Knoxville News-Sentinel today says that there is to be a Melungeon family reunion (apparently the first) in Wise County, Va., on Friday, July 25. I haven't been able to find anything about it on the web. Does anyone know more about it? Thanks, Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process: Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA http://ljp.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:04:57 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: HTML diacritics and such Greg Downing writes: I see a couple of html diacriticals did not come through on the last= message: =3DE6 is =E6 (digraph) =3DE9 is =E9 (e with acute accent) Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu Lots of things are not coming through, Greg. What I see here is (and I'll transcribe the way I would read it out loud, plus caps): equal-sign three Dee Ee six is equal-sign Ee six open-paren digraph close-paren equal-sign three Dee Ee nine is equal-sign Ee nine open-paren ee with acute accent close-paren That is: Whatever characters or character sequences you may be seeing on your screen, once your email gets through the vagaries of the Internet and onto my desk, all non-ASCII characters are turned into some kind of escape sequence. Unless you're transmitting to a single recipient or a small group, who you know from experience will receive and display your transmission intact with special characters, it's not safe to send anything but ASCII. In brief: DON'T EMAIL WEIRD SYMBOLS. Yours for clear communication, Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 11:29:13 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: HTML diacritics and such At 11:04 AM 7/21/97 -0500, you wrote: it's not safe to send anything but ASCII. In brief: DON'T EMAIL WEIRD SYMBOLS. Yours for clear communication, Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Actually, that was just a clip of a few lines on historical spellings of the preterit of bid from OED2, and it displayed with no problems on my email system. I've quoted from the OED before without problems, but this time I must have hit upon a passage (probably due to two diacriticals) that got messed up. That hadn't happened before. I've been successfully emailing/posting umlauts and acutes and graves and so on for several years, generated in word-processing programs and cut-and-pasted into emails.... I should have suspected there'd be a problem at some point, though -- the diacritical problem shows up on the Indo-European and Nostratic lists with some frequency, where it's harder to avoid.... How can one tell something is not ASCII when it looks fine on one's own email system before it's sent? Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 13:02:35 -0500 From: Anita Puckett apuckett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VT.EDU Subject: Re: Melungeons An AP story in the Knoxville News-Sentinel today says that there is to be a Melungeon family reunion (apparently the first) in Wise County, Va., on Friday, July 25. I haven't been able to find anything about it on the web. Does anyone know more about it? Thanks, Bethany Yes, it's not only a reunion, but also a conference with formal presentations by Kennedy and others. Friday night banquet included. Goes through Sat. night. May be some Sun. morning wrapup, but I don't recall off the top of my head. Registration is $15 at the gate plus $12.50 for the banquet. As of last week, about 370 had registered. Should be very interesting. URL's are http://www.clinch.edu/appalachia/melungeon (may be "appalachian"--I can't read my own scribbles here). This is the official site with on-line registration. http://www.bright.net/~kat/1stunion.htm (tells about) httP://www.usit.net/tngenweb/caladar.htm (TN calendar of events page with links). I meant to post to this list earlier; my apologies. If anyone linguistic is going, how about letting me know? I'm obligated to be there and would welcome any support from colleagues, especially when the so-called Turkish cognates start flying. Bethany? Would be a good time to catch up? Anita Puckett Appalchian Studies Program Center for Interdisciplinary Studies 343 Lane Hall Virginia Tech University Blacksburg, VA 24061-0227 Office: 540/231-9526 Fax: 540/231-1703 apuckett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 14:59:22 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: pre-consonantal /l/ in AAVE (I wrote about this for the ADS centennial meeting at Berkeley in 1989, and revised the paper at Allan's request in 1995, but so far the proceedings are still in press. Or maybe not.) That collection is, at long last, about to be published as PADS 80. Stand by for the announcement. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:19:42 -0400 From: Orin Hargraves OKH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: Re: HTML diacritics and such In answer to the question, How can one tell something is not ASCII when it looks fine on one's own= email system before it's sent? I think you need to distinguish between ascii codes 30 to 127, which are more or less standard across all systems (but even HERE there are occasional glitches) and ascii codes 128 to 256, sometimes called extende= d ascii, which are something of a grab bag but are consistent across most Windows applications (though divergent on the Mac, and I think there are inconsistencies between Windows 3.x and Windows 95. Who THINKS of all the= se things?). Standard ascii covers, more or less, the shift and unshift of the standar= d American qwerty keyboard. Extended ascii is everything else. So if you're= sending a character that you have to go through multiple keystrokes to generate on your screen, you can be sure it will be gibberish on somebody= else's screen. with best wishes, Orin Hargraves ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:55:14 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Dutch request I have an inquiry about where the negativism in "Dutch" terms (Dutch courage, Dutch kiss, Dutch rub etc - see DARE for more) comes from. I suggested looking at Beatrix Visser 't Hooft's "Systematic Racism in Dictionaries: The Case of the Dutch" in the latest _Dictionaries_ 18 (1997), but the reply was: It doesn't answer the "why" question in a historical way, while blaming the lexicograhpers which is ridiculous. Hasn't American Speech or any other publication looked at the social circumstances that created that prejudice at least as it is expressed in the English language? Is there anyone who would know? I don't know, so I'm asking you. Please reply to Vivian Ducat, Vivid130[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com; as well as to the list, if it's of general interest. Thanks. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:44:56 -0400 From: "Allan D. Austin" Adamrdamaa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Melungeons I, too, would be interested in hearing about this group. I have been told that Brent Kennedy has a book on these to some degree Muslim or descendents of Muslim people who were brought to my attention very late in the process of getting my African Muslims in Antebellum America: Trans-Atlantic Stories and Spiritual Struggles (Routledge, April 1997) in print. Allan D. Austin ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:43:19 -0500 From: Gregory Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: press etymology I think I've seen on this list a discussion of the term _hot dog_ and the attribution to NY sportswriter Tad Dorgan. Is this another case of _press etymology_? Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.iit.edu Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Jul 1997 to 21 Jul 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 21 Jul 1997 to 22 Jul 1997 There are 10 messages totalling 311 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Dutch request (4) 2. Dutch kiss 3. HTML diacritics and such 4. address needed 5. Dutch: ethnic slur compounds (2) 6. address needed -Reply ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 07:24:37 -0400 From: Robert Kelly kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BARD.EDU Subject: Re: Dutch request a reasonable guess about the negativism of Dutch [treat, kiss, etc.] is that it reflects more the English character than the Dutch. The Dutch were, through much of the period of the Netherlands' own formation, the most vivid rivals and, at times, enemies of the English at sea and in commerce. When you think about the English habit of humiliating their neighbors linguistically (Irish bull [stupid literalism], Welsh cattle [lice], French letter), the Dutch ought to congratulate themselves on being in good company. I don't think you'll find similar canards about the Dutch in German, for example, or even French. RK ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 09:31:23 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Dutch request More specifically, the two dozen or so Dutch slurs contained in Farmer & Henley's late Victorian era slang dictionary are annotated with the note that they (Dutch auction/concert/consolation/treat/uncle/wife/...) arose during the 17th century herring wars in the North Sea, and most (but not all) evidently have gradually disappeared as those wars have receded in memory. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:10:21 -0400 From: Leslie Dunkling 106407.3560[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: Dutch kiss I thought I was something of an expert in the matter of osculatory onomastics. Sinclair Lewis has a husband and wife who jokingly give names= to kisses in _Cass Timberlane_. They mention the Solid Brother-in-Law, th= e Allergic-to-Lipstick, the Short Interrogative, the Long Interrogative, th= e Vampire-Minatory. They also talk of the Butterfly kiss, but not the Paternal or Avuncular Peck which is what I tend to go in for these days. There's the Kiss of Death bestowed by sporting commentators, the Judas kiss, the Jonsonian Deputy kiss (Or leave a kiss but in the cup, And I'll= not ask for wine.) Dickens also described the Keyhole kiss in _David Copperfield_, when Peggotty kisses the keyhole of the room in which young= David has been locked by his dastardly step-father. = But what is this Dutch kiss that has been mentioned in a couple of recent= postings? It defeats my dictionaries, both American and British. It certainly defea= ts me. Though I note that Barton Holyday, whose _Marriage of the Arts_ was first performed in 1630, refers to "the different manners of a French, Spanish and Dutch kiss." Has Spanish kiss also survived? My question about Dutch kiss is asked in all innocence. If it takes us in= to the realms of unpleasant obscenity, forget I asked. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:28:23 -0400 From: Robert Swets bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BC.SEFLIN.ORG Subject: Re: Dutch request The Dutch were the last group to invade England. I forgot the name of the admiral, and the name of the river up which he sailed, and the year in which he did it (and I can't look it up because my wife boxed up and moved out all of my stuff last week while I was out of town), but they did, he did, and it did (early 1700's, or late 16's, I think. Must have been before the Dutch William and Mary). ****************************************************************************** * __ __ COLOR ME ORANGE | | | | Voice: 954-782-4582 + Fax: 954-782-4535 R. D. Swets | | | | Dir. of Music Ministries, Boca West Com- 170 N.E. 18th Street ______| | | |______ munity UMC + http:/www.awebs.com/ Pompano Beach, FL 33060 (________) (________) bocawest/ Sun-Sentinel: bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bc.seflin.org 954-356-4635; Fax: 954-356-4676 ****************************************************************************** * ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:00:37 -0500 From: Barbara Need nee1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: Dutch request I don't think you'll find similar canards about the Dutch in German, for example, or even French. No, but you do find _filer a' l'anglais(e?)_ in French. Barbara Need University of Chicago--Linguistics ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:22:21 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: HTML diacritics and such In further answer to the question, How can one tell something is not ASCII when it looks fine on one's own= email system before it's sent? [and note that weird line-ending equal sign! Inserted by MIME, perhaps?]: Here's an exhaustive answer. ASCII proper (7-bit), which should be universally carried as is on the Internet(1), consists of the following, arranged sort of by familiarity instead by ASCII code or keyboard: The ultra-basics: 26 uppercase unaccented letters A to Z 26 lowercase unaccented letters a to z 10 digits 0 to 9 The invisible: space, generated by pressing the space bar newline, generated by pressing ENTER or --' (or maybe RETURN?) (2) tab, generated by pressing the TAB key (4) Familiar punctuation: , comma . period, full stop ? question mark ; semicolon : colon ' apostrophe / open single quote / close single quote (3) " quotation mark (3) ( ) parentheses ! exclamation mark - hyphen or minus sign Familiar miscellaneous and mathematical symbols: [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] at sign # number sign, pound sign, sharp, octothorp (5) $ dollar sign % percent sign & ampersand * asterisk + plus sign = equal sign / slash, solidus less-than sign greater-than sign [ ] brackets (1) { } braces ("curly brackets") (1) Other characters: ~ tilde ` grave accent ^ caret or circumflex _ underscore | vertical bar, "pipe symbol" to Unix users (1) \ backslash, reverse solidus (1) NOTES: 1. At one time the Scandinavian languages replaced [ ] { } \ | with special letters. To the best of my knowledge, those letters now are commonly represented with codes above 127. 2. Different operating systems and word processors notoriously have different ways of representing a new line. Automatic word wrap is especially deceptive, producing line breaks that depend on the OS, the WP, the margin setting, the font name, size, and style, and the width of the screen. Regardless, though, when you actually, physically press ENTER in your mail editor you ought to produce a line break that all recipients will see there... unless THEIR mail readers mess it up, as mine often does (but that's not your problem)! 3. ASCII does not have distinct left and right quotation marks, just ' a single vertical tick and " a double vertical tick which do double duty, working both ends of the quotation; and the single tick is also the apostrophe. Some people and word processors use the ASCII grave accent `, singly or doubled, for left quotes. This transmits safely, as far as I know. Many word processors generate distinct left and right characters by analyzing the context in which you press the keys labeled with these symbols, and insert special codes for them into the text. These will appear unpredictably when transmitted through email and displayed on other peoples' screens. If you are using a word processor to write text that you intend to email, and you see distinct left and right quotes on the screen, or a curly apostrophe, look for an option menu that lets you turn off this feature (often called "smart quotes"). 4. The tab key (short for TABULATOR) is wonderful for making tables. How far does it move the cursor? Your guess is as good as mine. Like word wrap, it depends on the OS, the WP, the margin setting, and the font name, size, and style. Even in monospace fonts -- even in DOS -- there is no uniform standard. The table that looks so great on your screen will come to me staggered, jagged, and word-wrapped to hell. When making tables for email transmission or posting, use a monospace font (such as Courier or Monaco) and the space bar (autorepeat can be very helpful) rather than the tab key. After all, you're trying to share information, not disguise it. 5. The cross-hatched symbol like a tic-tac-toe board or musical sharp sign usually means "number" in the US, as in "Post Office Box #217", when preceding a number, and occasionally "pounds [avoirdupois]" when following, as in "Idaho potatoes, 100# bag"; whence the name "pound sign", which in the UK refers to the pound-sterling symbol, a crossed curly capital L. Some wiseacre decided to pun on this by making the SAME byte appear as a cross-hatch in the US and a sterling symbol in the UK, at least sometimes. If you "honor and remember" these limitations, your fellow researchers will bless you! Oh, and one more thing. "HTML diacritics"? HTML doesn't use diacritics: it goes to great lengths to use ONLY 7-bit ASCII to express all its formats and characters, including diacritical marks: e.g., â Small a, circumflex accent Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:23:30 -0400 From: Margaret Ronkin ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: address needed I'm posting this query for Patricia O'Connor here at Georgetown. Please reply directly to her. Many thanks. Maggie Ronkin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ Does anyone have the e-mail and/or snail mail for Barbara Johnstone? I understand that she is moving to Carnegie Mellon. If all you (good samaritan that you are) have is the Texas addresses, please send them. --Patricia Patricia E. O'Connor FAX 202 687 5445 English Dept. Phone 202 687 7622 Georgetown University oconnorpe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu Washington, DC 20057 USA ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:14:07 -0500 From: wachal robert s rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Subject: Dutch: ethnic slur compounds What allows such terms to exist is the prevailing social attitude for a given county or given social class at a given time, but I'm no expert. But note the British "French letter" for condom the French "le vice anglaise" for sad-masochism. In academic circles I don't hear "to jew someone down" but occasionally "welch/welsh on a bet" "Chinese fire drill" seems OK to some (not to me), so maybe it has to do with salience of the group being put down. These kinds of terms passed for wit (and some still do( when I was a lad in the '30's, back when my people ("Bohunks") referred to "sheenies" (Jews). I think that politcal correctness has done a lot for this aspect of language behavior, while often being silly in other contexts. Oh, well, what the fuck! Bob Wachal ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 11:53:51 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: Dutch: ethnic slur compounds At 10:14 AM 7/22/97 -0500, you wrote: In academic circles I don't hear "to jew someone down" but occasionally "welch/welsh on a bet" Or gyp someone? Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:57:50 -0500 From: Elizabeth Gregory WPODOM1.AGCOM.egregory[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAEXGW.TAMU.EDU Subject: address needed -Reply At Texas A&M, Barbara Johnstone's e-mail address is: b-johnstone[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tamu.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Jul 1997 to 22 Jul 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 22 Jul 1997 to 23 Jul 1997 There are 13 messages totalling 359 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Email Address Needed (3) 2. Amelioration of 'suck' and other such (2) 3. Dutch kiss (3) 4. "Privilege" as a Verb (2) 5. electronic submissions for ADS-NYC '98? (2) 6. Presentism ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:25:16 -0400 From: Elizabeth Gibbens gibbens[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NYTIMES.COM Subject: Email Address Needed Dear All, Does anyone have the e-mail address of Evan Morris? I have to ask her a question about William and Mary Morris' _Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins_. Thanks-- Elizabeth Gibbens Elizabeth Gibbens Researcher William Safire's "On Language" The New York Times ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 10:08:22 -0500 From: wachal robert s rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Subject: Amelioration of 'suck' and other such Did anyone notice the use of 'suck' in Dilbert a few days ago? Someone remarked on the amelioration of 'getting shafted/screwed' and the like last week. Does anyone have a list of body-specific or sexual activity- specific words or expressions that have generalized or softened? I mentioned at the recent DSNA meeting that young kids, even those who are good spellers, writing about someone being "pist" because they are unaware that it is from 'pissed off'. Perhaps the person who wrote about this could repost to me directly: robert-wachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiowa.edu Ron Butters and I have both (but independently of each other) discussed in legal cases the possible origin of 'suck' as an expression of general disaprobation. Apparently 'suck' has become so common that it's possible allusion to fellation has become obscure. I've even heard people use 'brown nose' in apparent innocence of its origin. Any thoughts on these matters, friends and colleagues? Bob Wachal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:32:47 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Dutch kiss Leslie Dunkling writes: [...] But what is this Dutch kiss that has been mentioned in a couple of recent postings? It defeats my dictionaries, both American and British. It certainly defeats me. Though I note that Barton Holyday, whose _Marriage of the Arts_ was first performed in 1630, refers to "the different manners of a French, Spanish and Dutch kiss." Has Spanish kiss also survived? My question about Dutch kiss is asked in all innocence. If it takes us into the realms of unpleasant obscenity, forget I asked. No, no, please explicate!... whether obscene or not. After all, this is LANGUAGE we're talking about. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 11:50:20 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: Email Address Needed Does anyone have the e-mail address of Evan Morris? I have to ask her a question about William and Mary Morris' _Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins_. Thanks-- His preferred address is: words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com Best, Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 12:19:55 -0400 From: Elizabeth Gibbens gibbens[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NYTIMES.COM Subject: "Privilege" as a Verb To Everyone-- In postmodern literary criticism, it is often said that the author is "privileged" or that we "privilege" certain writers over others. Is anyone familiar with the early uses of the word with this sense? Could you share your citations and observations about it with me? Mr. Safire wants to write about this verb in an upcoming column. Thank you. Elizabeth Gibbens Elizabeth Gibbens Researcher William Safire's "On Language" The New York Times ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:30:22 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: Amelioration of 'suck' and other such At 10:08 AM 7/23/97 -0500, you wrote: Someone remarked on the amelioration of 'getting shafted/screwed' and the like last week. Does anyone have a list of body-specific or sexual activity- specific words or expressions that have generalized or softened? I write a weekly column on gardening, a cohort of readers not noted as a particularly rowdy lot. I've used "screwed" several times without a whisper of complaint from any editors or readers. (Though it is possible that some editors changed it without my knowing.) Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:06:40 -0400 From: "Peter L. Patrick" PPATRICK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.ACC.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: electronic submissions for ADS-NYC '98? A student of mine is putting together a paper, hopefully for the ADS section in NYC next January. Wanting to work until the last minute (I can't imagine where he learned that!), he asks if it's possible to submit via email? I should know but don't, and guessed that we have a July 31 deadline-- is that right? The answer probably involves going to a website, but at the moment I'm between providers at home and can't, so old-fashioned email is my best hope. If the right person knows the right answer, please let me know (and perhaps you can also cc: robertsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu). Thanks! --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:29:19 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dutch kiss "Dutch kiss" is in DARE, of course. One citation, from Wisconsin: "Dutch kiss--the ordinary variety, but one takes hold of the ears of the kissee. Very satisfactory end of a row, since it is exclusively a female's and children's kiss, and the kisser can get one last bit of revenge with a sharp pinch of the lobe." Another: "Dutch kiss--hold nose and ear and kiss cheek." From Kentucky: "Dutch kiss--a stolen kiss or one supposedly stolen." To avoid vulgarities, don't even look in the Historical Dictionary of American Slang. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:50:51 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: electronic submissions for ADS-NYC '98? Speaking ex cathedra, I can affirm that electronic submissions are welcome. (or maybe Ron Butters, VP & program chair, should speak ex cathedra; I'll be ex officio) Below is the full call for papers, from the May 1997 Newsletter of the American Dialect Society. - Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com Executive Secretary American Dialect Society --------------------------------------------- Annual Meeting 1998 * New York City, Jan. 8 - 10 Final Call for Papers: August 15 Next year ADS will again meet with the Linguistic Society of America, this time in New York City, Thursday through Saturday, January 8-10. We'll be housed in the completely remodeled Grand Hyatt Hotel near Grand Central Station. Rooms will be $89 single, $10 for each extra person. Call (800) 233-1234 or (212) 883-1234 for reservations - and mention LSA. August 15 is the deadline for proposals. You are encouraged to make a proposal even if you do not have a paper fully developed. With your proposal, please specify whether you want your paper considered for the special session (below) and whether you will need audio-visual equipment. Format: Our abstracts will be printed in the LSA program, so we ask that you follow LSA guidelines: Use 10 point Times Roman or equivalent, single spaced, in black ink, within a rectangle 3 inches high and 7.5 inches wide. Outside this rectangle, write the title and your name, affiliation, and address; and specify any audio-visual equipment you will need. Send the abstract to Executive Secretary Allan Metcalf. If convenient, please also send your abstract by e-mail to AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, for publication in our own newsletter. But this e-version is not required. Annual Luncheon: William Labov, Univ. of Pennsylvania, will speak on the relationship between dialect geography and sociolinguistics. Words of the Year: It's not too early to start sending your nominations for the words of 1997 to New Words Committee Chair Wayne Glowka, Dept. of English and Speech, Georgia College and State University, Milledgeville GA 31061, wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu.; or to David Barnhart, PO Box 247, Cold Spring NY 10516, e-mail Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]highlands.com. As usual, nominations will be winnowed and winners voted on during the Annual Meeting. Is 1997 a slow year for new and distinctive vocabulary, or are we just not noticing? Special session: Reconfiguring Regional Dialects in the 21st Century Papers are particularly welcome on 1) the (potentially) endangered dialect isolate, i.e., enclaves such as the North Carolina Outer Banks and (perhaps?) the Minnesota Iron Range; 2) the effects on regional dialects of transplant dialects in rapidly growing areas such as the North Carolina Research Triangle; 3) new ethnic dialects such as Vietnamese (reconfigured like Hispanic English, etc.); 4) shifts and meltings at major dialect boundaries; 5) the possible effect of the growing African-American middle class on AAVE. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 19:08:03 -0400 From: Leslie Dunkling 106407.3560[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: Dutch kiss Re: Mark Mandel's point. It was other people's sensitivities I was worried about, but no matter. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 13:15:47 -0400 From: Elizabeth Gibbens gibbens[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NYTIMES.COM Subject: Re: Email Address Needed Dear Jesse, I am sure you have seen my query to the ADS list about "privilege." Mr. Safire would appreciate your insights in particular. In addition, could you comment on the term "presentism"? According to the _OED_, it has been around since the 1970's. It means "seeing the past through the glass of the present," and I believe, although I don't yet have an answer, that it is used by new-historicist critics. If you would like to reply, please do so by tomorrow morning. Mr. Safire is on deadline. Thanks. Elizabeth Gibbens At 11:50 AM 7/23/97 -0400, you wrote: Does anyone have the e-mail address of Evan Morris? I have to ask her a question about William and Mary Morris' _Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins_. Thanks-- His preferred address is: words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com Best, Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com Elizabeth Gibbens Researcher William Safire's "On Language" The New York Times ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:01:42 -0400 From: Fred Shapiro fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: "Privilege" as a Verb Here's what I find from some quick research: It appears to me that "privileging" in the vogue use you are referring to probably originated as a Marxist term, although it may have had some non-Marxist roots as well. I find reference to "the educational opportunities privileging certain status & income-groups" in a 1977 abstract of a German article in _Sociological Abstracts_. E. D. Hirsch, Jr. published an article entitled "Privileged Criteria in Literary Evaluation" in the _Yearbook of Comparative Criticism_ in 1969, but I have not examined this article and cannot be sure of the meaning of his usage of _privileged_ here. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ + Fred R. Shapiro Editor + + Associate Librarian for Public Services OXFORD DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN + + Yale Law School LEGAL QUOTATIONS + + e-mail: shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minerva.cis.yale.edu (Oxford University Press) + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 22:10:30 -0400 From: Fred Shapiro fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Presentism Dear Ms. Gibbens, I saw your e-mail to Jesse Sheidlower, posted inadvertently to the ADS list. Here is some information on _presentism_ that may be helpful to you: The earliest definite citation I can supply for _presentism_ is a 1964 article by Donald W. Robinson in the _California Social Science Review_, entitled "Pluralism and Presentism in the Social Studies." The term probably appeared in Robert M. Hutchins' book, _Education for Freedom_ (1943), but I have not been able to verify this before your deadline. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ + Fred R. Shapiro Editor + + Associate Librarian for Public Services OXFORD DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN + + Yale Law School LEGAL QUOTATIONS + + e-mail: shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minerva.cis.yale.edu (Oxford University Press) + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Jul 1997 to 23 Jul 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 23 Jul 1997 to 24 Jul 1997 There are 6 messages totalling 251 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. FREE TRIAL - LINGUISTICS ABSTRACTS ON-LINE 2. "Privilege" as a Verb 3. No subject given 4. electronic submissions for ADS-NYC '98? 5. "Privilege" as a "Marxist" Verb? 6. FW: (fwd) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:04:39 +0100 From: Barham Emma EBarham[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLACKWELLPUBLISHERS.CO.UK Subject: FREE TRIAL - LINGUISTICS ABSTRACTS ON-LINE Sign up for a FREE trial of Linguistics Abstracts On-line! Linguistics Abstracts On-line gives you immediate access via the Internet to all 15 years of abstracts published in the journal Linguistics Abstracts. It is updated regularly and can be searched by any combination of journal, title, subject, date, author or keyword. To register for the free trial, visit the following URL and see for yourself what Linguistics Abstracts On-line has to offer: http://www.blackwellpublishers.co.uk/labs Or contact me for more information. Emma BarhamBlackwell Publishers E-mail: ebarham[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]blackwellpublishers.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:09:37 -0400 From: Fred Shapiro fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: "Privilege" as a Verb In my previous message about _privilege_ I gave a 1977 usage, but upon reflection I see that this may simply be the old sense rather than the Marxist/postmodernist sense. A 1980 article by Peter Barry in the journal _English_, entitled "Linguistics and Literary Criticism: A Polytheism without Gods," refers to "privileging" of a linguistic approach. A 1983 article in _CEA Critic_ by K. S. Rothwell is titled "Roman Polanski's 'Macbeth,' the Privileging of Ross." In the _Monthly Review_, March 1984, Bertell Ollman, in an article headed "Academic Freedom in America Today: A Marxist View," speaks of "privileging the qualities of academic freedom as an ideal." In the _New York Times Book Review_, 15 Dec. 1985, a letter states that "It is incumbent on intellectuals ... to contribute to the formulation of standards of civic justice, without privileging their own participation in a complex cultural and political process." At about the same time, the 21 Dec. 1985 issue of the _Nation_ carried a book review by Edward Hirsch containing a reference to the poet Robert Hayden's "privileging poetry over race." Finally, William E. Rogers published an article in _Religion and Literature_ in 1986 with the title "Ricoeur and the Privileging of Texts." +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ + Fred R. Shapiro Editor + + Associate Librarian for Public Services OXFORD DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN + + Yale Law School LEGAL QUOTATIONS + + e-mail: shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minerva.cis.yale.edu (Oxford University Press) + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 12:39:53 +0100 From: Barham Emma EBarham[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLACKWELLPUBLISHERS.CO.UK Subject: No subject given SIGN OFF ADS-L Emma Barham ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:26:41 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: electronic submissions for ADS-NYC '98? Definitely, electronic submissions for ADS-NYC '98 are fine--in fact, I'd prefer them. Send copies of abstracts to me RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com , copies to AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com . ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:34:17 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "Privilege" as a "Marxist" Verb? Fred Shapiro writes: It appears ... that "privileging" in the vogue ... probably originated as a Marxist term, although it may have had some non-Marxist roots as well. E. D. Hirsch, Jr. published ... "Privileged Criteria in Literary .Evaluation" in ...1969 ... yes--Hirsch is not a Marxist, and I don't think he was a Marxist in 1969, either. For that matter, the German article Shapiro cites for 1977 is not identifiably "Marxist" in the quote Shaprio supplies. But perhaps he has other evidence. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 17:51:55 -0400 From: "Margaret G. Lee -English" mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.HAMPTONU.EDU Subject: Re: FW: (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 07:59:44 -0700 From: Helen Inez Lee inezlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]qvinta-inc.com To: datwins[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]exis.net Cc: Ernie Baretincic ErnieBaretincic[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]521.ih.navy.mil , Robert Lee lee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]rblee , "Margaret G. Lee -English" mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cs.hamptonu.edu , margot[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyc.pipeline.com Subject: Re: FW: "Star Trek Lost Episodes" transcript. Picard: "Mr. LaForge, have you had any success with your attempts at finding a weakness in the Borg? And Mr. Data, have you been able to access their command pathways?" Geordi: "Yes, Captain. In fact, we found the answer by searching through our archives on late Twentieth-century computing technology." (Geordi presses a key, and a logo appears on the computer screen.) Riker: (looks puzzled.) "What the hell is `Microsoft'?" Data: (turns to answer.) "Allow me to explain. We will send this program, for some reason called `Windows', through the Borg command pathways. Once inside their root command unit, it will begin consuming system resources at an unstoppable rate." Picard: "But the Borg have the ability to adapt. Won't they alter their processing systems to increase their storage capacity?" Data: "Yes, Captain. But when `Windows' detects this, it creates a new version of itself known as an `upgrade'. The use of resources increases exponentially with each iteration. The Borg will not be able to adapt quickly enough. Eventually all of their processing ability will be taken over and none will be available for their normal operational functions." Picard: "Excellent work. This is even better than that `unsolvable geometric shape' idea." . . . 15 Minutes Later . . . Data: "Captain, we have successfully installed the `Windows' in the Borg's command unit. As expected, it immediately consumed 85% of all available resources. However, we have not received any confirmation of the expected `upgrade'." Geordi: "Our scanners have picked up an increase in Borg storage and CPU capacity, but we still have no indication of an `upgrade' to compensate for their increase." Picard: "Data, scan the history banks again and determine if there is something we have missed." Data: "Sir, I believe there is a reason for the failure in the `upgrade'. Appearently the Borg have circumvented that part of the plan by not sending in their registration cards." Riker: "Captain, we have no choice. Requesting permission to begin emergency escape sequence 3F ...." Geordi: (excited) "Wait, Captain! Their CPU capacity has suddenly dropped to 0% !" Picard: "Data, what does your scanners show?" Data: (studying displays) "Appearently the Borg have found the internal `Windows' module named `Solitaire', and it has used up all available CPU capacity." Picard: "Let's wait and see how long this `Solitaire' can reduce their functionality." . . . Two Hours Pass . . . Riker: "Geordi, what is the status of the Borg?" Geordi: "As expected, the Borg are attempting to re-engineer to compensate for increased CPU and storage demands, but each time they successfully increase resources I have setup our closest deep space monitor beacon to transmit more `Windows' modules from something called the `Microsoft Fun-pack'. Picard: "How much time will that buy us?" Data: "Current Borg solution rates allow me to predicate an interest time span of 6 more hours." Geordi: "Captain, another vessel has entered our sector." Picard: "Identify." Data: "It appears to have markings very similar to the 'Microsoft' logo..." (Over the speakers:) "THIS IS ADMIRAL BILL GATES OF THE MICROSOFT FLAGSHIP _MONOPOLY_. WE HAVE POSITIVE CONFIRMATION OF UNREGISTERED SOFTWARE IN THIS SECTOR. SURREDER ALL ASSETS AND WE CAN AVOID ANY TROUBLE. YOU HAVE 10 SECONDS TO COMPLY." Data: "The alien ship has just opened its forward hatches and released thousands of humanoid-shaped objects." Picard: "Magnify forward viewer on the alien craft!" Riker: "My God, captain! Those are human beings floating straight toward the Borg ship - with no life support suits! How can they survive the tortures of deep space?!" Data: "I don't believe that those are humans, sir. If you will look closer I believe you will see that they are carrying something recognized by twenty-first century man as doeskin leather briefcases, and wearing Armani suits." Riker and Picard: (together - horrified) "Lawyers!!" Geordi: "It can't be. All the Lawyers were rounded up and sent hurtling into the sun in 2017 during the Great Awakening." Data: "True, but appearently some must have survived." Riker: "They have surrounded the Borg ship and are covering it with all types of papers." Data: "I believe that is known in ancient venacular as `red tape'. It often proves fatal." Riker: "They're tearing the Borg to pieces!" Picard: "Turn the monitors off, Data, I cant bear to watch. Even the Borg doesnt deserve such a gruesome death!" ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Jul 1997 to 24 Jul 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 24 Jul 1997 to 25 Jul 1997 There are 9 messages totalling 284 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "Privilege" as a Verb (2) 2. "is is" (formerly "as best as") (3) 3. ough (3) 4. ough (fwd) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:33:08 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: "Privilege" as a Verb Fred Shapiro writes: In my previous message about _privilege_ I gave a 1977 usage, but upon reflection I see that this may simply be the old sense rather than the Marxist/postmodernist sense. I'm still troubled about that "Marxist" label--most of the citations that Mr ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:36:16 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: "Privilege" as a Verb Fred Shapiro writes: In my previous message about _privilege_ I gave a 1977 usage, but upon reflection I see that this may simply be the old sense rather than the Marxist/postmodernist sense. I'm still troubled about that "Marxist" label--most of the citations that Mr. Shapiro lists have nothing to do with Marxism that I can see. Perhaps he would care to clarify his usage? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:28:46 -0400 From: Bryan Gick bgick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAPIR.LING.YALE.EDU Subject: "is is" (formerly "as best as") The recent thread on "as best as" reminds me of something pointed out to me by my mother. She's been noticing, to her continual annoyance, that seemingly respectable and well-educated TV newsfolk and politicians have taken to saying "is" twice in some constructions, like: "The problem is is there are too many sheepdogs on the board of directors." This has the same intonation as -- and is presumbably an analogy from -- constructions like: "What the problem is is..." Anybody heard this? What the reason the "as best as" thing reminded me of this is is (whew) that I suspect "as best as" is similarly based on analogy from "to do x as best one can/could/etc." (without the second "as"). This sounds a bit archaic to me and wasn't in my native dialect of NW PA, but I have heard it often in other dialects. Much more common, of course, is the "as...as" comparative construction, and hence, presumably, the analogy. Thoughts? Bryan On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Duane Campbell wrote: Watching the Senate Finance Committee hearings just now (I don't have much of a life), an attorney asked, "As best as you can remember . . ." It seems to me that in the last few years this phrase has almost completely replaced "as well as", even among well educated speakers. It grates on my ears. Am I wrong to think that this is grammatically incorrect, that you cannot compare a superlative? Is it language inflation? Or am I just being picky? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 10:36:45 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: ough From one of those "Did you know..." lists that bounce around the Internet, followed by a comment from my son: The combination "ough" can be pronounced in nine different ways. The following sentence contains them all: "A rough-coated, dough-faced, thoughtful ploughman strode through the streets of Scarborough; after falling into a slough, he coughed and hiccoughed." Whough pronounces "slough" differently from "through"? They sound like they rhyme to me. "Dough" vs. "Scarborough" also seems pretty debatable. 1) Are there parts of the country where "slough" (i.e., the body of water) is pronounced other than [slu:]? 2) I presume that on the East Coast "Scarborough" has a schwa rather than an [o] as its final vowel, yes? Peter McGraw In the wilds of Orygun ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 14:01:37 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: "is is" (formerly "as best as") At 01:28 PM 7/25/97 -0400, you wrote: "The problem is is there are too many sheepdogs on the board of directors." I have no problem with this, as long as the punctuation is right. "The problem is: Is you is or is you ain't my baby." What the reason the "as best as" thing reminded me of this is is (whew) that I suspect "as best as" is similarly based on analogy from "to do x as best one can/could/etc." (without the second "as"). But my complaint about this construction is the FIRST as. One does THE best one can or as WELL as one can. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 11:54:02 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: "is is" (formerly "as best as") I'm with Bryan's mother. I've been hearing "the 'is' stutter" for a long time now, and it bothers me, too. I once even heard someone, I think on the radio, say, "The thing of it is is, is that (there are too many sheepdogs, or whatever)." Here at Linfield we have a computer director who will string together five or so "is's" before he quits spinning his wheels and resumes the sentence. The first such construction I ever heard was from a friend in a place where I formerly lived, who was wont to say, "The point being is..." Obviously he had reanalyzed "being" into a modifier of "point" and thus still needed a verb. Something of the sort must be happening with the "is is" utterances, though it seems less clear why. I, too, have always figured that "as best as" was a conflation of "as best (you can)" with "as well as (you can)." Peter On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Bryan Gick wrote: The recent thread on "as best as" reminds me of something pointed out to me by my mother. She's been noticing, to her continual annoyance, that seemingly respectable and well-educated TV newsfolk and politicians have taken to saying "is" twice in some constructions, like: "The problem is is there are too many sheepdogs on the board of directors." This has the same intonation as -- and is presumbably an analogy from -- constructions like: "What the problem is is..." Anybody heard this? What the reason the "as best as" thing reminded me of this is is (whew) that I suspect "as best as" is similarly based on analogy from "to do x as best one can/could/etc." (without the second "as"). This sounds a bit archaic to me and wasn't in my native dialect of NW PA, but I have heard it often in other dialects. Much more common, of course, is the "as...as" comparative construction, and hence, presumably, the analogy. Thoughts? Bryan On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Duane Campbell wrote: Watching the Senate Finance Committee hearings just now (I don't have much of a life), an attorney asked, "As best as you can remember . . ." It seems to me that in the last few years this phrase has almost completely replaced "as well as", even among well educated speakers. It grates on my ears. Am I wrong to think that this is grammatically incorrect, that you cannot compare a superlative? Is it language inflation? Or am I just being picky? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 15:55:34 -0400 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: ough At 10:36 AM 7/25/97 -0700, Peter McGraw wrote: From one of those "Did you know..." lists that bounce around the Internet, followed by a comment from my son: 1) Are there parts of the country where "slough" (i.e., the body of water) is pronounced other than [slu:]? I pronounce the verb "slough" with a final /f/. Perhaps that's what's intended in the quotation rather than [slu:]. 2) I presume that on the East Coast "Scarborough" has a schwa rather than an [o] as its final vowel, yes? Yes. Alan Baragona alan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vmi.edu You know, years ago, my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this world, Elwood, you must be . . ."--she always called me 'Elwood'--"In this world, Elwood, you must be oh, so smart or oh, so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. And you may quote me. Elwood P. Dowd ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 13:56:43 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: ough (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 25 Jul 97 14:39:20 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YaleVM.CIS.Yale.Edu To: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linfield.edu Subject: Re: ough One problem is that there a couple of different 'slough's. THe one meaning 'swamp', 'inlet' is evidently generally [slu:]; I don't have this one in my active lexicon. The metaphorical transfer meaning (courtesy of Webster's) 'state of moral degradation or spirit dejection', as of course in 'slough of despond', is (again according to Webster's, but confirming my own intution) [slau]. And the verb (sometimes spelled 'sluff') denoting what you do with your old skin if you're a snake, or with your unwanted cards if you're a bridge player, is always [sl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]f], where [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] is schwa or wedge. But these three pro- nunciations obviously rhyme with those of 'through', 'plough', and 'rough' re- spectively, so 'slough' never presents a NEW prounciation: there remain just [!] eight. And yes, this easterner does indeed pronounce "Scarborough" with a final schwa, at least sometimes. --Larry, wondering if the list- author was thinking of falling into cole slough... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 1997 17:24:38 -0700 From: Sylvia Swift madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SOCRATES.BERKELEY.EDU Subject: Re: ough i don't know who minnie elmer is. a colleague passed this along as something to use for teaching; a whole slough of rhymes, as it were. gough street (in san francisco) rhymes with off. sylvia swift madonna[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]socrates.berkeley.edu ---------- Forwarded message ---------- In San Francisco passing through I came upon a street named Gough; Allergic to a street named Gough I there began to sneeze and cough; I parked my car beneath a bough That overhung the street sign "Gough," And rested there awhile, although I did not like the street named Gough. No, I did not like the street named Gough About which this is quite enough. --Minnie Elmer ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Jul 1997 to 25 Jul 1997 ************************************************ Sender: American Dialect Society ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Topics of the day: 1. "is is" (2) 2. boro-talk? 3. HELP (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 11:37:21 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "is is" As I recall, this construction has been discussed here before. What my memory also is is that several years ago in AMERICAN SPEECH someone (Jim Hartman?) published something on how this pleonastic (?) IS may have evolved from the long-grammatical "is is" of cleft sentences (e.g., in the opening words of this sentence). Can anyone help us out with a bibliography of this putatively new construction? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 12:15:30 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: "is is" In every case where 'is' is the 'extra is' (i.e., 'pleanastic' one), I find that it would be very reasonable to assign it to COMP. Note that in this sense it is not so far off from the '-s' of 'All's I know...' construction where the '-s' rather obviously derives from an older COMP (i.e., 'as') which not only competed with 'that' in the history of English but won out in some varieties. 'I know as he's going' = 'I know that he's going'. As further support, I also suspect that this pleonastic 'is' does not occur with an overt COMP: What we decided to do is is we would ignore John. but ?What we decided to do is is that we would ignore John. But I'm not so sure. I may be a semi-speaker of this variety and my judgment of the questionable sentnece I cite above may be no good. What about pleonastic 'is' as COMP? DInIs As I recall, this construction has been discussed here before. What my memory also is is that several years ago in AMERICAN SPEECH someone (Jim Hartman?) published something on how this pleonastic (?) IS may have evolved from the long-grammatical "is is" of cleft sentences (e.g., in the opening words of this sentence). Can anyone help us out with a bibliography of this putatively new construction? Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 16:38:58 -0400 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: boro-talk? In a literary document set in the late 1890s, there is a snatch of a children's "secret language" that a colleague of mine is trying to source. It is a simplified variant of pig-latin where you add -boro to the end of every word, apparently so your younger siblings (or whoever else doesn't know the lingo) can't follow what you're saying: "Goneboro toboro lookboro atboro aboro houseboro.... Becauseboro theboro landboro lordboro willboro putboro usboro outboro." The book is set in the United Kingdom, but it's not impossible that such a code-language was used in the U.S. as well. Does anyone recognize this particular "secret language," or have suggestions for where to track down some written documentation of it? I tried the Opies' _Lore and Language of Schoolchildren_ (1959) and came up with analogies (pp. 320-22) but not boro-talk itself. Of course, it is possible that the novelist made it up for the novel, or that it was a "secret language" used by a family or very small group the novelist happened to be familiar with. But it does seem possible that it's a fairly widely used "secret language." Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 18:51:49 -0500 From: Ditra Henry D-Henry1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEIU.EDU Subject: Re: HELP Does anyone know if there is general linguists list and what the E-mail address is for listserv? Ditra ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 26 Jul 1997 21:56:10 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: HELP Does anyone know if there is general linguists list and what the E-mail address is for listserv? The home page for the LINGUIST list is at: http://linguistlist.org/ Addresses for various editors and the list itself can be found there. Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Jul 1997 to 26 Jul 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 26 Jul 1997 to 27 Jul 1997 There are 4 messages totalling 106 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. slough 2. dumb question, I'm really sorry (2) 3. boro-talk? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 17:35:42 -0400 From: "(Dale F. Coye)" Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: slough Whough pronounces "slough" differently from "through"? They sound like they rhyme to me. According to my recent survey of Shakespeare professors there's a national difference. In the meaning 'bog': US: as in how: 9 as in who: 3 Canada: as in how:1 as in who: 4 as in caw: 1 UK: as in how: 14 as in who: 0 Expatriates: as in how: 5 as in who: 2 This is from OE sloh (long o), ME long u, which gives mod. ow as in how. Major dictionaries give both in the US, vowel of how in the UK. Wells in LPD notes that some speakers make a distinction between a geographic slough (sloo) and the slough of desond (as in how). PDAE tells us 'mudhole' is as in how, but 'marsh' is sloo. The 'skin' meaning rhymes, as noted, with rough. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 18:41:23 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: dumb question, I'm really sorry Who said, "Less is more." My instinct says Menken, but van der Rohe is in the running. My MS Bookshelf doesn't have it, nor does my 1955 paper Bartlett's or the Bartleby Bartlett's online. Really sorry to clutter the list with this, but I am desperate. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 18:48:30 -0400 From: David Bergdahl bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: boro-talk? On Sat, 26 Jul 1997, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: In a literary document set in the late 1890s, there is a snatch of a children's "secret language" that a colleague of mine is trying to source. It is a simplified variant of pig-latin where you add -boro to the end of every word, apparently so your younger siblings (or whoever else doesn't know the lingo) can't follow what you're saying: "Goneboro toboro lookboro atboro aboro houseboro.... Becauseboro theboro landboro lordboro willboro putboro usboro outboro." Look at a critical edition of Joyce's Portrait. . . in which a fragment of this children's lang is used; I remember seeing a note to that effect in Anderson's edition. ===================================================================== == David Bergdahl Ellis Hall 114c Ohio University / Athens Associate Prof Fall Qtr office hrs: 9 TTh & by appointment English Dept tel: (614) 593-2783 fax: (614) 593-2818 bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl ===================================================================== == ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Jul 1997 19:44:14 -0400 From: Alan Baragona baragonaa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: dumb question, I'm really sorry Duane Campbell wrote: Who said, "Less is more." My instinct says Menken, but van der Rohe is in the running. My MS Bookshelf doesn't have it, nor does my 1955 paper Bartlett's or the Bartleby Bartlett's online. Really sorry to clutter the list with this, but I am desperate. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ Believe it or not, my hardback Bartlett's attributes it to Robert Browning! "Andrea del Sarto," l. 78, with a cross reference to Hesiod: "Fools, they do not even know how much more is the half than the whole" ("Works and Days" l. 40). FWIW, I always associated it with Van der Rohe, not Mencken. Alan B. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Jul 1997 to 27 Jul 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 27 Jul 1997 to 28 Jul 1997 There are 4 messages totalling 159 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "The Hands" 2. "Less is more... 3. dumb nitpick, I'm really sorry ;-)\ (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 07:36:50 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "The Hands" "Well, Dandy Don, it looks like the fans are telling us that the Washington Redskins are Number One!" --Howard Cosell generously interpreting a hand gesture to Don Meredith on Monday Night Football (1978), after a Washington Redskins touchdown; to most viewers--including this one--the fans who were raising their middle fingers appeared to be saying "FUCK YOU, HOWARD!! FUCK YOU!!" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- "The Hands"--or, one hand gesture in particular--is probably the easiest thing I ever solved. I was walking through Bruge, Belgium the other day, and a sign in the window of the Snuffel Sleep Inn declared "Dit cafe is Oke." There was a graphic for that country's hand gesture for O. K.--not the familiar thumb and index finger together in a circle, but the thumbs up. (I provided citations for the O. K. hand gesture on this list earlier this year.) Perhaps the most important hand gesture in Western art doesn't really have a name, but is called simply "the hands." As explained in the DICTIONARY OF SYMBOLISM by Hans Biedermann, pg. 163, "The right hand with three fingers extended (thumb, index, and middle finger) symbolizes an oath: 'As God is my witness....'" An illustration is given on the same page. The gesture dates from around the time of Christ. In John Ferguson's THE RELIGIONS OF THE ROMAN EMPIRE, figure 56 shows "a bronze hand with magic symbols in honour of Sabazios." Pg. 102 states "His cult is most clearly seen in the votive offering of bronze right hands decorated with magic symbols, representing the god's benevolent power. These are found throughout the imperial period; inscriptions suggest that the second and third centuries AD were the period of the god's greatest popularity." "Decorated with magic symbols?" No explanation of them?? "The Hands" can be found in the British Museum. It's not explained there, either. A book on "The Hands" was published by E. J. Brill (Leiden), one of many green-clothed books on the religions of the Roman Empire. Photos of "the hands" from many collections are provided, but still no explanation of the gesture. This past week, I saw Van Eyck's "The Adoration of the Lamb" in a church in Ghent. The painting's Jesus used the same hand gesture. Again, there was no written explanation. I listened to two tourists guides, and neither explained the gesture at the very center of the painting. I then went to the Royal Museum of Art in Brussels. In a room of 16th century paintings, I saw the gesture used again. And again! And again! And again! Six times!! Always the right hand. Almost always used by Jesus. First three fingers up, last two fingers down. Used all the time! Never explained! Richard Nixon does a hand gesture, or Winston Churchill--it's explained! But here you have something called "the hands," and that's all it is, and no one provides a clue! The explanation to this is so pitifully easy, it's embarrassing. People counted on their hands. I got out Karl Menninger's NUMBER WORDS AND NUMBER SYMBOLS: A CULTURAL HISTORY OF NUMBERS. Page 203 (from a 1494 edition) and also pg. 207 (from a 1727 edition)--both from the work of the Venerable Bede, who died AD 735. The right hand gesture represents the number 800. The numbers in Greek were represented by letters. What letter would this be? Page 265 tells us--it's the Omega, the last letter of the Greek alphabet! Jesus, of course, would teach of the Alpha and the Omega--the beginning and the end. "The Hands" represent the Omega--the end. Makes a lot of sense. I solved this in about a minute, many years ago, way before I solved the Parthenon.... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:28:29 -0400 From: Hamilothoris shamilot[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SUFFOLK.LIB.NY.US Subject: Re: "Less is more... Alan Baragona wrote: Duane Campbell wrote: Who said, "Less is more." My instinct says Menken, but van der Rohe is in the running. Believe it or not, my hardback Bartlett's attributes it to Robert Browning! "Andrea del Sarto," l. 78, with a cross reference to Hesiod: "Fools, they do not even know how much more is the half than the whole" ("Works and Days" l. 40). FWIW, I always associated it with Van der Rohe, not Mencken. In the Loeb Classic Library edition H. G. Evelynn-White continues from the above with the following translation: "...nor what great advantage there is in mallow and asphodel" [i.e. the poor man's fare, like `bread and cheese']. It is clear from the context of the passage that those who have more now "the bribe-swallowing lords'(ibid. 1. 36) shall have the flowers of Hades on their chest (see asphodel) while the poor man, who has only bread and cheese, shall not have hidden from him the means of life. Thus, the saying 'work to live, not live to work' --or, in other words, an interest in the pursuit of wealth precludes an interest in the pursuit of life. Spiro H. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:32:49 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: dumb nitpick, I'm really sorry ;-)\ In seeking the origin of the aphorism "Less is more", Duane Campbell and Alan Baragona mentioned [Ludwig Mies] Van Der Rohe. Confusingly, "Mies" is part of his surname, so he's properly referred to as "Mies Van Der Rohe", not "Van Der Rohe". -- Dr. Whom: Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody [a.k.a.] Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jul 1997 13:53:07 -0400 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: dumb nitpick, I'm really sorry ;-)\ At 01:32 PM 7/28/97 -0500, Mark Mandel wrote: In seeking the origin of the aphorism "Less is more", Duane Campbell and Alan Baragona mentioned [Ludwig Mies] Van Der Rohe. Confusingly, "Mies" is part of his surname, so he's properly referred to as "Mies Van Der Rohe", not "Van Der Rohe". -- Dr. Whom: Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody [a.k.a.] Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ Not such a dumb nitpick. I get annoyed when people refer to Gabriel Garcia Marquez as "Marquez" instead of "Garcia Marquez." Thanks for the correction. Alan Baragona alan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vmi.edu You know, years ago, my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this world, Elwood, you must be . . ."--she always called me 'Elwood'--"In this world, Elwood, you must be oh, so smart or oh, so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. And you may quote me. Elwood P. Dowd ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Jul 1997 to 28 Jul 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 28 Jul 1997 to 29 Jul 1997 There are 16 messages totalling 686 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Ice cream cone; Dutch "highway"; "America" Papers; Stamp Acts 2. An anniversary 3. (Garcia) Marquez (3) 4. Garcia (Marquez) (4) 5. canadian choon for tune 6. SME t + glide (was canadian choon for tune) (2) 7. New Books: English Dialectology 8. Question on a word 9. "Privilege" as a Verb 10. Presentism Again ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 07:10:51 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Ice cream cone; Dutch "highway"; "America" Papers; Stamp Acts ICE CREAM CONE Paul Dickson's THE GREAT AMERICAN ICE CREAM BOOK (1972) gives a delicious treatment of "ice cream cone" and will be tough to lick. On pages 66-73, he presents "The Somewhat Confusing Saga of the Ice Cream Cone." Ernest A. Hamwi came from Damascus, Syria to St. Louis in 1903. In the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair (the same fair where the hot dog bun was NOT invented), he obtained a concession to sell zalabia, a crisp, waferlike Persian pastry baked on a flat waffle iron and served with sugar and other sweets. An ice cream concession was close by his stand. When the ice cream stand ran out of dishes, Hamwi rolled his wafer and put a scoop of ice cream in it. The ice cream cone was born. The very year (1954) that the 50th anniversary of the ice cream cone was celebrated, the New York Times ran an obituary of Italo Marchiony on October 19, 1954, stating that Marchiony had been making cones and selling them as early as 1896. He applied for a patent on his cone mold, which was issued on December 13, 1904. Two other contenders emerged. In 1965, the New York Times ran an obituary of David Avayou, an Atlantic City, New Jersey ice cream shop operator who claimed that HE invented the ice cream cone at the 1904 World's Fair. He got the idea from paper cones in France. Abe Doumar, who hawked Holy Land souvenirs at the Fair, claimed that HE gave the idea to the waffle man there. His son published this version in THE SAGA OF THE ICE CREAM CONE. There are others. In August 1947, a Chicago Sun story on Max Goldberg of the cone giant Illinois Baking Company stated that Goldberg had first sold cones in 1903. Nineteenth century France supposedly had its paper and metal cones, and Dusseldorf also put in a claim to edible containers. Can I beat ("lick" if you will) Dickson on the ice cream cone? This has to be investigated further, but it is from Variety obituaries for 8 December 1931. We now have a circus theory: Chas. E. Menchez, Creator Of Ice Cream Cones, Dead Charles E. Menchez, 72, died from a heart attack at his home in Akron, O., Dec. 3. He was the creator of the ice cream cone, a circus acrobat, park operator and picture theatre exhibitor. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ DUTCH "HIGHWAY" This is part of a continuing experience of tour guides and etymology. Last year, in Ireland, it was "lynch" and "donnybrook." I was touring through the Netherlands (check out www.nbceurope.com, where the Netherlands was recently voted #1 for travelers), and the tour guide pointed out the canals and the high ground next to the water. "That's where the word 'high way' comes from." Hm. "High way" is a nice word to get right. OED has a computer "highway" from 1949. OED has "king's high way" from 859. One citation states that "the king's peace" and "the king's highway" are related terms. If so, then "highway" has to do with royalty, and the Netherlands' canal theory is all washed up. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- "AMERICA" PAPERS I posted some parts of my "America" papers here in May. First, I debunked the theory that America was named after John Cabot's paymaster Richard Ameryck on Cabot's historic 1497 voyage. (There are no contemporary English citations that would support the claim.) I also posted "Native American" on the 500th anniversary of Amerigo Vespucci's claimed (but disputed) first voyage. During a recent trip to Belgium, I looked in the telephone book. Brussels would have a nice mix of Dutch and Germanic names. I found 15 "Emmerechts," 18 "Amerijckx," and 30 "Ameryckx." A New York City phone book hardly has these names; in the Brussels phone book, they're clearly popular names. More later..... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------- STAMP ACTS There definitely should be a postage stamp devoted to American dialects. Perhaps put "O. K." on it. Elvis, Marilyn, James Dean, and even Bugs Bunny are stamps. Mickey Mouse is undoubtedly next. There have been American plants, animals, athletes, entertainers, et al. If the American Dialect Society would draft a formal stamp proposal to the U. S. Postal Service, it would be taken very seriously. Something to think about for the annual meeting. Maybe we'll get SEVERAL stamps for several dialects? Which brings me, of course, to my FOIL request on the Stars & Stripes Forever stamp, which was answered today. As I first posted on Presidents Day, "The Stars and Stripes Forever" is a Civil War phrase. John Philip Sousa III lived in my apartment building. Stamps are considered seriously 2 1/2 years in advance, so in 1994 I suggested a 1997 100-year commemorative S&SF stamp. The Postal Service never told me anything about the stamp, so I filed a FOIL request. The stamp is due to come out August 21. Here goes: July 25, 1997 Dear Mr. Popik, This letter responds to your Freedom of Information Act request for information concerning the issuance of a stamp commemorating the 100th anniversary of the song "Stars and Strips Forever," (actually, it's STRIPES, and it's a march--ed.) written by John Philip Sousa. We apologize for the delay in responding to your inquiry. (Hey, no problem, it's only a FOIL requirement; the Chicago Historical Society broke their eight weeks promise by one month--ed.) You are one of many proponents who have supported the issuance of a stamp honoring John Philip Sousa and the song, "The Stars and Strips Forever." (STRIPES! STRIPES!!!!--ed.) Our records indicate that we received support for the issuance of this subject in 1993 and your letter is dated July 21, 1994. (I wanted to know how my letter was considered. If being first is important, then 1776, 1876, 1976, 2076, 2176, 2276, 2376, check it out.--ed.) In our response to you dated August 8, 1994, we indicated that the subject was before the Citizens' Stamp Advisory Committee and remains under consideration. (I received a form letter--ed.) In addition, the U. S. Postal Service gives no recognition to any proponent for the submission of a stamp subject. The U. S. Postal Service does not maintain any records or reports that relate to the stamp honoring "The Stars and Strips Forever." (I make loads of spelling errors in these posts--which are made at crazy hours under difficult family circumstances--but misspelling this THREE TIMES?!--ed.) The only information maintained that relates to the issuance of that stamp is the Citizens' Stamp Advisory Committee minutes. Committee minutes contain the opinions of the members which the Postmaster General many or may not accept. (Grammar is obviously not a strong point--ed.) Consequently, we consider this information protected by the deliberative process privilege recognized under subsection (b)(5) of the Freedom of Information Act and the Postal Service's paralleling regulation at Administrative Support Manual 352.42 (d). That privilege does not require release of documents that reflect the agency decision-making process. (Obviously, important national security interests are at stake here--ed.) You have the right to appeal in writing to the General Counsel, U. S. Postal Service, Washington, DC 20260-1100, within 30 days of the date of this letter. The letter of appeal should include statements concerning this perceived denial, the reasons why it is believed to be erroneous, and the relief sought, along with copies of your original request (Sure, I keep these things for years--ed.), this letter, and any other related correspondence. We hope we have been able to clarify this issue for you. Your interest in our stamp program is very much appreciated. Sincerely, James C. Tolbert, Jr. (signed) Manager Stamp Development Wow. All I wanted was someone to tell me personally when the stamp would be issued, and maybe to invite me to its premiere, like they did for Warner Brothers and Bugs Bunny. A simple "thank you" and a 32-cent stamp--an expense of less than one dollar--would have made me real happy! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 09:57:51 -0400 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: An anniversary Although Barry Popik mentioned it earlier, we've let a demi-millennial anniversary slip by without mention on this list. Before the month is over, here's a statement about it, taken from the forthcoming book _America in So Many Words_ by David K. Barnhart and Allan A. Metcalf, to be published by Houghton Mifflin this November: The story of the English language in North America begins almost exactly 500 years ago, on July 24, 1497. At about 5 a.m. that Midsummer Day, Captain John Cabot, along with some of the 18-member crew of his ship Mathew, set foot on the eastern coast of what we now call Canada, speaking the first words of English ever heard on this side of the Atlantic. Modern historians do not know where they landed that first time. Most likely it was present-day Newfoundland; Cabot's own happy notion was that they had reached Asia. For our story, his mistake doesn't matter. What does matter is that they had come from the port of Bristol in England and thus spoke English. (Cabot himself was Italian, but like Columbus he had taken up residence in another country to further his maritime projects.) As it happens, the voyage of the Mathew had no influence whatsoever on the later development of American English. Cabot and his men saw signs of human habitation: traps, fish nets, and a painted stick. But they met nobody, so they did not learn any native words to import into English. Nor did they stay to start an English-speaking settlement. They soon got back on board their little ship, looked at a few more islands from a safe distance, and then returned in high spirits to Bristol on August 6, confident that they had found a short way to Asia. That set the pattern for the next century. The English found North America a nice place to visit, but they didn't want to live there. . . . ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:42:18 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: (Garcia) Marquez Alan Baragona writes: I get annoyed when people refer to Gabriel Garcia Marquez as "Marquez" instead of "Garcia Marquez." Could somebody please explain the protocol here? As I recall, when I lived in Mexico, people explained to me that "Garcia" was the matronymic and "Marquez" the patronymic--and the matronymic was frequently dropped in all but the most formal of situations. Is my memory wrong? Or are there different practices in different parts of the Spanish-speaking world? It seems to me that people frequently referred to ech other by their "last" names rather than their full family names. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 11:57:31 -0400 From: Alan Baragona baragonaa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: (Garcia) Marquez Ron Butters wrote: Alan Baragona writes: I get annoyed when people refer to Gabriel Garcia Marquez as "Marquez" instead of "Garcia Marquez." Could somebody please explain the protocol here? As I recall, when I lived in Mexico, people explained to me that "Garcia" was the matronymic and "Marquez" the patronymic--and the matronymic was frequently dropped in all but the most formal of situations. Is my memory wrong? Or are there different practices in different parts of the Spanish-speaking world? It seems to me that people frequently referred to ech other by their "last" names rather than their full family names. I don't know about Mexico, but I've lived in Colombia, where Garcia Marquez hails from, and there the first surname is the patronymic and the the second is the matronymic and is frequently dropped. Gabriel's father's name was Garcia. I am relatively sure that this is the practice throughout the Spanish-speaking world, including Mexico, but I could be wrong. Alan B. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:28:08 -0400 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Garcia (Marquez) Alan B.writes: *******. . . in Colombia, where Garcia Marquez hails from . . . the first surname is the patronymic and the the second is the matronymic and is frequently dropped. Gabriel's father's name was Garcia. I am relatively sure that this is the practice throughout the Spanish-speaking world, including Mexico, but I could be wrong.********* I'm sure you are right--and for Mexico as well. I knew that ONE of the names could be dropped--maybe I was mixing up Spanish and Russian? (Does anybody know about Russian?) And why, by the way, did Ludwig Mies Van Der Rohe have such a complicated name? Anyway, thanks for the explanation--and thanks for being polite and gentle about it. I will file this in my memory blank. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 10:01:27 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: Garcia (Marquez) On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Ron Butters wrote: I'm sure you are right--and for Mexico as well. I knew that ONE of the names could be dropped--maybe I was mixing up Spanish and Russian? (Does anybody know about Russian?) In Russian the patronymic comes first, but is not the surname, which comes last, e.g., Boris Nikolaievich Yeltsin. The suffix -evich means "son of." Russians often use the first name and the patronymic in contexts where we would use just the first name. And now I'm getting out of my depth, so won't hazard a guess as to whether there are different social contexts for first-name-only vs. first-name-plus-patronymic. And why, by the way, did Ludwig Mies Van Der Rohe have such a complicated name? Even though I'm fluent in German, Dutch and Germanic philology (and not Russian), I haven't a clue as to this one. "Ludwig" is German, "van" is most likely Dutch, "Rohe" looks German, and the pattern "X van der Y" (as opposed to just "van der Y") as a surname is not typical for either language. Peter McGraw ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:10:13 -0400 From: Alan Baragona baragonaa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: Garcia (Marquez) Ron Butters wrote: Alan B.writes: *******. . . in Colombia, where Garcia Marquez hails from . . . the first surname is the patronymic and the the second is the matronymic and is frequently dropped. Gabriel's father's name was Garcia. I am relatively sure that this is the practice throughout the Spanish-speaking world, including Mexico, but I could be wrong.********* I'm sure you are right--and for Mexico as well. I knew that ONE of the names could be dropped--maybe I was mixing up Spanish and Russian? (Does anybody know about Russian?) And why, by the way, did Ludwig Mies Van Der Rohe have such a complicated name? Anyway, thanks for the explanation--and thanks for being polite and gentle about it. I will file this in my memory blank. Ah, polite and gentle are my middle names. One way to keep the order straight (which I should have mentioned in the first place) is to remember that it's Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra. Calling Garcia Marquez "Marquez" is like calling Cervantes "Saavedra." I suppose "Garcia" is such a common name that it's preferable to use both patro- and matro- for him, whereas there's only one Cervantes worth talking about. In Russian the patronymic comes before the surname, and its form is based on the father's first name ("Nikolaievich"--sp?), with -skaya instead of -evich being added for a daughter. Then there's Icelandic, which really confuses things by using a Russian-type patronymic as the ONLY surname, so that Eric Ericsson and Ingrid Ericsdottr can be brother and sister. But it's a small island. Alan B. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:00:44 -0400 From: "(Dale F. Coye)" Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: canadian choon for tune I've just read in Crystal's Encyc. of the Eng. Lang. (p.341) that among other Canadian pronunciation features is the use of ch- in initial position in tune, Tuesday, etc. I don't think this is very widespread in Canada, but have only a handful of Canadian friends to base it on. Anyone else know about this or where to look? Dale Coye Princeton, NJ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:11:25 -0500 From: Luanne von Schneidemesser lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: (Garcia) Marquez At 11:57 AM 7/29/97 -0400, Alan Baragona wrote: Ron Butters wrote: Alan Baragona writes: I get annoyed when people refer to Gabriel Garcia Marquez as "Marquez" instead of "Garcia Marquez." Could somebody please explain the protocol here? As I recall, when I lived in Mexico, people explained to me that "Garcia" was the matronymic and "Marquez" the patronymic--and the matronymic was frequently dropped in all but the most formal of situations. Is my memory wrong? Or are there different practices in different parts of the Spanish-speaking world? It seems to me that people frequently referred to ech other by their "last" names rather than their full family names. I don't know about Mexico, but I've lived in Colombia, where Garcia Marquez hails from, and there the first surname is the patronymic and the the second is the matronymic and is frequently dropped. Gabriel's father's name was Garcia. I am relatively sure that this is the practice throughout the Spanish-speaking world, including Mexico, but I could be wrong. Alan B. I was told by a friend from Argentina that they use only one surname there. Any Argentinians to inform us? Luanne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 15:15:15 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: SME t + glide (was canadian choon for tune) On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, (Dale F. Coye) wrote: I've just read in Crystal's Encyc. of the Eng. Lang. (p.341) that among other Canadian pronunciation features is the use of ch- in initial position in tune, Tuesday, etc. I don't think this is very widespread in Canada, but have only a handful of Canadian friends to base it on. Anyone else know about this or where to look? The "ch" seems to be the ultimate product (via affrication) of t + glide, yielding /tjewzday/, /nyewz/, /tjewn/, etc., all alive and well in Southern Mt. English (Ap + Ozark). I occ. hears /chewlips/ for tulips, but not chewsday or chewn. My .02 as a longterm observer, Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process: Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA http://ljp.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 12:39:27 PDT From: barbara harris GRADMA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVVM.UVIC.CA Subject: Re: SME t + glide (was canadian choon for tune) Re chewsdi vs /tjuzdi/: If you are (as I am) one of the CE speakers who uses the t+glide regularly (tune, Tuesday, student, stew, etc. - and the voiced version as well, eg due/dew vs do), then the difference is probably registral (i.e. rapid/casual speech vs more formal speech). For instance, I'd say to a class, "The next quiz will be on /tyuzdi/," but leaving the office on Friday afternoon, I'll likely say, "See ya chewsdi " (it's against my principles to come in on a Monday). Of course, there are a lot of CE speakers who would never use either of these versions, but stick to the plain /t/ and /d/. And then there's a sort of half-way pronunciation that I'm not even going to attempt to represent here. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 16:54:30 -0400 From: Tony Schiavo tony[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BENJAMINS.COM Subject: New Books: English Dialectology John Benjamins Publishing would like to call your attention to the following new titles in the field of English Dialectology: ENGLISHES AROUND THE WORLD I GENERAL STUDIES: BRITISH ISLES, NORTH AMERICA STUDIES IN HONOUR OF MANFRED GOERLACH Edgar W. Schneider (ed.) 1997 vi, 329 pp. Varieties of English Around the World, G18 US/Canada: Cloth: 1 55619 449 8 Price: US$79.00 Rest of the world: Cloth: 90 272 4876 1 Price: Hfl. 140,-- John Benjamins Publishing web site: http://www.benjamins.com For further information via e-mail: service[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]benjamins.com The two volumes of Englishes Around the World present high-quality original research papers written in honour of Manfred Goerlach, founder and editor of the journal English World-Wide and the book series Varieties of English Around the World. The papers thematically focus on the field that Manfred Georlach has helped to build and shape. Volume 1 contains articles on general topics and studies of what might be termed "Old" Englishes, varieties of English that have been rooted in their respective regions for a long time and have been traditional focal points of scholarly study. The first section contains eight general and comparative papers (dealing with terminological matters or definitions of core concepts, historical issues, structural comparisons across a wide range of varieties, etc.); the second one has nine papers on dialects of English as used in the British Isles (covering England, Scotland, Ulster and Ireland); and finally, there are four contributions on North American varieties of English (including Southern English, African American Vernacular English, Newfoundland Vernacular English, and American English in a historical perspective). The thematic scope comprises the levels of lexis, phonology, morphology, syntax, pragmatics, and orthography, as well as sociohistorical issues, the question of the evolution and transmission of dialects, various sources of evidence including literary dialect, etc. Contributors to the respective sections include J. Algeo, W.-D. Bald, J.-M. Gachelin, A.F. Gupta, K. Hansen, J. Holm, J. Spencer and Ch. Stephan; I. Brown and K. Lenz, B. Glauser, J.L. Kallen, R. Macaulay, J.D. McClure, C. Milton, M. Montgomery, W. Viereck, and E. Weiner; G. Bailey, S. Clarke, P. Cukor-Avila, and W.A. Kretzschmar. ENGLISHES AROUND THE WORLD II CARIBBEAN, AFRICA, ASIA, AUSTRALASIA STUDIES IN HONOUR OF MANFRED GOERLACH Edgar W. Schneider (ed.) 1997 viii, 358 pp. Varieties of English Around the World, G19 US/Canada: Cloth: 1 55619 716 0 Price: US$85.00 Rest of the world: Cloth: 90 272 4877 X Price: Hfl. 150,-- John Benjamins Publishing web site: http://www.benjamins.com For further information via e-mail: service[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]benjamins.com The two volumes of Englishes Around the World present high-quality original research papers written in honour of Manfred Goerlach, founder and editor of the journal English World-Wide and the book series Varieties of English Around the World. The papers thematically focus on the field that Manfred Goerlach has helped to build and shape. Volume 2 of Englishes Around the World presents studies of so-called "New Englishes", post-colonial varieties as spoken predominantly in countries of the former British Empire. There are five contributions on the Caribbean (covering Jamaica, Guyana, and Trinidad), five articles on Africa (South Africa, East Africa, and Nigeria), six studies of English in Asian countries (Japan, the Philippines, India, Singapore, Malaysia, and Papua New Guinea), and six papers on Australia and New Zealand. Topics covered range from sociohistorical causes and processes, the nativization of English in different countries, or the expression of individual identities by means of the English language through structural descriptions to sociolinguistic, psycholinguistic, lexicographic, pragmatic, stylistic, and other matters. The articles in the respective sections are written by D.R. Craig; L.M. Haynes; P.L. Patrick; K. Shields-Brodber and L. Winer; A Banjo; V. de Klerk; R. Meshtrie; J. Schmied and P. Silva; R.W. Bailey; A. Gonzales; R. Begum and T. Kandiah; R.R. Mehrotra; P. Muehlhausler and M. Newbrook; L. Bauer; S. Butler; M. Clyne; P. Peters and A. Delbridge; G. Tulloch and G.W. Turner. For further information please e-mail Bernadette Keck: service[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]benjamins.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 14:08:22 -0700 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: Garcia (Marquez) On Tue, 29 Jul 1997, Alan Baragona wrote: In Russian the patronymic comes before the surname, and its form is based on the father's first name ("Nikolaievich"--sp?), with -skaya instead of -evich being added for a daughter. Then there's Icelandic, which really confuses things by using a Russian-type patronymic as the ONLY surname, so that Eric Ericsson and Ingrid Ericsdottr can be brother and sister. But it's a small island. Alan B. I know this thread has strayed off-topic, but I can't resist a final nit-pick: Actually, -skaya is the feminine form of the surname suffix -ski/-sky/-skiy (depending on what transliteration you choose). The feminine form of the patronymic is -evna. And the Icelandic names would be Eiri'kur Eiri'ksson and Ingrid Eiri'ksdo'ttir. Peter Mc. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 17:30:27 -0500 From: Jonathan Gilbert JonG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Question on a word Apologies for posting to lists I don't normally read; I'm asking here on the suggestion of a friend who does read them -- please send replies directly by email, and thanks. The question is on behalf of another friend who is working on a dissertation (not on a linguistics topic, it's social history of a sort); she wants to describe a situation in which the usage of one word (in a particular context, by a small group of people) has diverged enough from its standard usage that it has become interchangeable with another word, normally either different or unrelated in meaning. My friend believes there is a word for this phenomenon, but nobody we've asked so far has been able to identify it ... does anyone out there know? Jonathan Gilbert JonG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 18:28:13 -0400 From: Fred Shapiro fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: "Privilege" as a Verb On Fri, 25 Jul 1997, Ron Butters wrote: I'm still troubled about that "Marxist" label--most of the citations that Mr. Shapiro lists have nothing to do with Marxism that I can see. Perhaps he would care to clarify his usage? I searched many databases for early usages of the gerundial form _privileging_ (this is the only form of the word that really works as a database search). The majority of the earliest citations I found (including some I did not send to the list) appear to be from Marxist contexts. But I may be misinterpreting the evidence; perhaps Marxist usage was only one of several environments in which this meaning developed. The 1969 citation I referred to previously turns out, upon inspection, to not be a clear example of the current vogue usage. The earliest clear citation I have found is the following: 1979 _Speculum_ 54: 328 Put simply, by privileging one context at the expense of others we decide how the text's ironies should be read. +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ + Fred R. Shapiro Editor + + Associate Librarian for Public Services OXFORD DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN + + Yale Law School LEGAL QUOTATIONS + + e-mail: shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minerva.cis.yale.edu (Oxford University Press) + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 19:14:47 -0400 From: Fred Shapiro fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Presentism Again The earliest citation I have found for _presentism_ is the following: 1943 Robert M. Hutchins _Education for Freedom_ 31-32 A second reason why some people doubt the social utility of the education I favor is that they belong to the cult of immediacy, or of what may be called presentism. In this view the way to comprehend the world is to grapple with the reality you find about you. ... There is no past. Hutchins uses the word in the sense 'a bias toward the present' rather than in the sense Ms. Gibbens was looking for, 'viewing the past through the lens of present-day attitudes.' For the latter sense, the following are the earliest citations I have found: 1950 Chester M. Destler in _American Historical Review_ 55: 507 It can be seen that subjectivist-relativist-presentism, plus the definition of history and thought, and the distrust of concepts of causality, continuity, and the possibility of generalization, constitute together the conceptual foundations of the new school of historical theory. 1951 _Amer. Hist. Rev._ 56: 451 The concept of "presentism" as it is described in Mr. Destler's article has no counterpart among serious philosophers. Still earlier citations may lie in Merriam-Webster's files, since Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary gives a dating of 1923 for _presentism_. Can anyone from Merriam-Webster subscribing to this list provide the earliest citations from those files for the two senses of the word? +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ + Fred R. Shapiro Editor + + Associate Librarian for Public Services OXFORD DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN + + Yale Law School LEGAL QUOTATIONS + + e-mail: shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minerva.cis.yale.edu (Oxford University Press) + +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++ ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Jul 1997 to 29 Jul 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 29 Jul 1997 to 30 Jul 1997 There are 6 messages totalling 305 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Int'l Ass'n of Forensic Linguists 3 - Duke University - 4-7 Sept. 97 (fwd) 2. John Cabot (2) 3. canadian choon for tune 4. SME t + glide (was canadian choon for tune) 5. Canadian "choon"? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:18:03 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Int'l Ass'n of Forensic Linguists 3 - Duke University - 4-7 Sept. 97 (fwd) 3rd Biannual Meeting of the International Association of Forensic Linguists (Registration Information Follows Program] Program (4-7 September 1997) [updated 28 July 1997] Schedule at a Glance Thur. 4ix97 3:30-5:30 1. Interpretation and Translation in the Legal Field I 5:30-7:00 2. Reception Friday 5ix97 9:00-10:30 3. The Legal Significance of Ordinary Words 10:45-12:15 4. Legal Language 1:30-3:00 5. Style and Discourse 3:15-4:45 6. Electronic resources for Forensic Linguistics (3) 5:00-6:00 7. Plenary 1: Roger Shuy, Georgetown U. Saturday 6ix97 8:30-10:30 8. Interpretation and Translation in the Legal Field II 10:45-12:15 9. Language in the Courtroom 1:30-3:00 10. Language and Power 3:15-4:45 11. Linguistic Issues in Legal Documents 5:00-6:00 12. Plenary 2: Larry Solan, Brooklyn College of Law 6:30-9:00 13. Banquet Sunday7ix97 8:30-9:30 14. General Business Meeting 9:45-11:45 15. Interpretation and Translation in the Legal Field III Papers and Presenters 1. Interpretation and Translation in the Legal Field I (Thursday 3:30-5:30) William Hewitt, National Center for State Courts, VA Court interpretation test: What we have learned and where Robert Joe Lee, Administrative Office of the Courts, NJ Models for delivering court interpreting services Chris Howard, Administrative Office of the Courts, MD Computer assisted language testing for court interpreters Lois M. Feuerle, Office of Court Administration, NYC, and Joanne I. Moore, WA State Supreme Court Equal access to justice: how much accuracy is enough? 2. Reception (Thursday 5:30-7:00) 3. The Legal Significance of Ordinary Words (Friday 9-10:30) Ronald Butters, Jeremy Sugarman, and Lyla Kaplan, Duke U. What patients really know about the terms used in obtaining informed consent: false comfort, unreasonable fear, and "medical research" Michael Walsh, U. of Sydney Ordinary English words: the language of the Aboriginal Land Commissioner Claire A. Hill, George Mason U. School of Law Order in the shadow of the law or, how contracts do things with words 4. Legal Language (Friday 10:45-12:15) C. Rodolfo Celis, U. of Chicago Towards a forensic lexicography Roger W. Cole, U. of South Florida Forensic linguistics and applied linguistics: The role of legal English in the law schools of the Czech Republic Pamela Price Klebaum, UCLA The social indexicality of a legal argument 5. Style and Discourse (Friday 1:30-3:00) Susan Blackwell, U. of Birmingham, UK Taking a closer look at "look": discourse markers in disputed texts Malcolm Coulthard U. of Birmingham, UK Disputed confessions: disputed authorship methodologies and problems Bruce Fraser, Boston U. Threatening revisited 6. Electronic resources for Forensic Linguistics (Friday 3:15-4:45) Carole Chaski, Justice Department, Washington, DC An electronic parsing system for document authentication A. R. Gray, P. J. Sallis, and S. G. MacDonell, U. of Otago, New Zealand Software forensics: extending authorship analysis to computer programs David G. Hale, Olin Corporation, and Bethany K. Dumas, U. of Tennessee Electronic resources for forensic linguistics: creating a web journal 7. Plenary 1: Roger Shuy, Georgetown U. (Friday 5:00-6:00) Nine unanswered language questions about Miranda 8. Interpretation and Translation in the Legal Field II (Saturday 8:30-10:30) John Gibbons, U. of Sydney, and Sandra Hale, U. of Western Sydney, Macarthur Different realities: patterned changes in the interpreter's representation of courtroom and external realities Jenny Chan, Independent Commission Against Corruption, H.K. Between Cantonese and English in court Mami Hiraike Okawara, U. of Econ., Japan The practice of interpreting in Japanese criminal cases Susan Berk-Seligson, U. of Pittsburgh How lawyers' questions can be made less coercive or more so: it's all up to the court interpreter 9. Language in the Courtroom (Saturday 10:45-12:15) Diana Eades, U. of Hawai'i at Manoa Why did you lie to me? Language and power in the courtroom Keller S. Magenau, Georgetown U. An American rape trial: how the adversarial system of the American court serves to privilege the framing of rape as consensual sex Biljana Martinovski, U. of Gothenburg Interactive mechanisms and feature in courtroom communication 10. Language and Power (Saturday 1:30-3:00) Wm. O'Barr, Duke U., and John M. Conley, U. of North Carolina/Chapel Hill Law, language, and power Gillian Grebler, Santa Monica, CA Vulnerable testimony: police interrogation and false confessions 11. Linguistic Issues in Legal Documents (Saturday 3:15-4:45) Jeffrey Kaplan, San Diego State U. Linguistic issues in the interpretation of wills Bryan A. Liang, Pepperdine U. School of Law Listening to the dead: culture and bias in interpreting dying declarations Dennis H. Inman, Magistrate, Eastern District of Tennessee Jury instructions from the judge's perspective 12. Plenary 2: Larry Solan, Brooklyn College of Law (Saturday 5:00-6:00) [TBA] 13. Banquet (Saturday 6:30-9:00) 14. Gen'l Meeting of the Ass'n/Gen'l Business Meeting (Sunday 8:30-9:30) 15. Interpretation and Translation in the Legal Field III (Sunday 9:45-11:45) Weiping Wu, Center for Applied Linguistics, Washington, DC Evaluation of summary translation ability for linguists in law enforcement agencies Charles Stansfield, Second Language Testing Inc., MD Standards for licensing court interpreters Patricia Michelsen, Certified Federal Court Interpreter, VA Court interpreters: training and certification K.K. Sin, City U. of Hong Kong, HK One country, two legal systems: problems in translating English legislation into Chinese in Hong Kong ----- Registration ----- Third Biannual Conference of the INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF FORENSIC LINGUISTS, 4-7 September, 1997, at Duke University, Durham, North Carolina, USA. REGISTRATON: Fees include regular sessions, conference package, three continental breakfasts, coffee breaks, two box lunches, and a reception. Advance registration fee: US $100 (on-site $135); Advance student registration fee: US $70 (on-site $105); Optional Banquet: US $35. To qualify for advanced registration, fees should be received prior to 15 August 1997. Registration fees should be sent in American dollars to: Mr. Charles Carson, IAFL Conference Co-ordinator / Duke University / Box 90018 / Durham, NC 27708-0018. Checks should be made out to Duke University. Receipts will be mailed in return. Questions can be sent to the above address or via e-mail to carson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acpub.duke.edu. ACCOMMODATIONS: The conference will be hosted at the Washington Duke Inn, a luxury hotel on the Duke University campus, featuring a four-diamond restaurant and an 18-hole championship golf course. Rooms are $98 US + 11% occupancy tax (for single or double occupancy; $10 additional for each additional person, up to 4 in a room). A block of 40 rooms will be held at this rate until 5 August 1997. If more than 40 people register prior to the deadline, they may receive our conference rate based on availability. Also, attendees can have the conference rate for up to two days before or after the conference-again, based on availability. To make reservations, call, fax, or write the Washington Duke Inn (mention the IAFL conference). Washington Duke Inn & Golf Club 3001 Cameron Blvd Durham NC 27706 USA (919) 490-0999; Fax: (919) 688-0105 Reservations: (800) 443-3853 Web site: http://www.washingtondukeinn.com Flights should be scheduled into Raleigh/Durham International Airport;transportation can be obtained to and from the Washington Duke for US $17. Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Department of English EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower (423) 974-6965, (423) 974-6926 (FAX) University of Tennessee Editor, Language in the Judicial Process: Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA http://ljp.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 09:10:04 -0500 From: wachal robert s rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Subject: John Cabot Of course John Cabot was not the first English speaker to set foot in North America. Leif Ericson, who inherited a kind of Norwegianized English from his marauding forebears, left remnants of it behind. Had Cabot ventured farther inland, say to what is now called Minnesota, he would have encountered folks who said things like "Yah, sher, u betchah". Bob Wachal ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:47:42 -0004 From: Terry Pratt tpratt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA Subject: Re: canadian choon for tune Every Canadian this Canadian knows says chooseday, unless affecting formality and going for tyuesday. Straight up T would mark the American for most Canadians, I think. tp Dr. Terry Pratt Department of English University of Prince Edward Island Charlottetown, PEI, C1A 4P3 Canada Phones: (902) 566-0677; (902) 675-3672 Fax: (902 566-0363 Email: tpratt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]upei.ca ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 11:37:15 -0400 From: "(Dale F. Coye)" Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: SME t + glide (was canadian choon for tune) The "ch" seems to be the ultimate product (via affrication) of t + glide, yielding /tjewzday/, /nyewz/, /tjewn/, etc. I know, but my question was, do Canadians actually say ch- or for that matter ty- instead of t-. Dale Coye Princeton, NJ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 12:37:01 -0400 From: Jack Chambers chambers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHASS.UTORONTO.CA Subject: Canadian "choon"? Barbara Harris rightly recognizes herself in a Canadian minority in saying 'choon', 'choozday', and the like. Yod-dropping in Canada is not far behind yod-dropping in the northeastern States. In the youngest speakers, it is nearly unanimous. The dialect Topography of the Golden Horseshoe checked pronunciations with yod in 'student' and 'news' (among others). The 935 respondents representing a cross -section in this 250km strip around the western tip of Lake Ontario, where about one-fifth of the population of Canada live, differed in the percentages of yod-lessness according to age, as follows: Age student news 80+ 44 59 70-79 58 61 60-69 55 65 50-59 58 67 40-49 72 75 30-39 80 81 20-29 83 85 14-19 88 91 Even for the people over 80, pronunciation of yod is minority use in 'news'; it is a slim majority for them in 'student'. They were born in the 1920s. Since then, no age group has pronounced the yod as a majority. These results accord with general impressions. In the last 50 years, schoolteachers, parents and other arbiters have had little to say about retaining yod. It does not appear to be conscious for any identifiable group. Two years ago, ESSO ran a commercial in which the mechanic with his nose stuck in the engine compartment of a car talked about a "CHOON-up" while the owner in a suit with briefcase responded about the "TOON-up". ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:32:41 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: John Cabot At 09:10 AM 7/30/97 -0500, you wrote: Of course John Cabot was not the first English speaker to set foot in North America. Leif Ericson, who inherited a kind of Norwegianized English from his marauding forebears, left remnants of it behind. Thank you for reminding me. I don't know what I was thinking. I have been to Norway, and nearly everyone speaks English. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Jul 1997 to 30 Jul 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 30 Jul 1997 to 31 Jul 1997 There are 3 messages totalling 127 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "I'm from Missouri-Show Me"--Vandiver's role 2. O. K. ( a new "Oh ki" from Boston) 3. question on a word -Reply ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 02:45:53 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "I'm from Missouri-Show Me"--Vandiver's role This is included to my prior postings on this topic for the sake of completeness. In a 1911 "Show Me" article in the New York Herald, Missouri Congressman William D. Vandiver got total credit for originating "I'm from Missouri--Show Me!" at a dinner meeting of the House Naval Committee in Philadelphia at the Five O'Clock Club in 1899. I traced the phrase to the 1898 Transmississippi Fair in Omaha; a copyrighted song followed in August 1898. I told Gerald Cohen (Mo-Rolla) that I looked throught the Five O'Clock Club records for 1898 and 1899, and I didn't find the dinner. I said that my time in Philadelphia was limited that day and I didn't have time to check 1900 and 1901. Gerald Cohen took a trip back east a few weeks ago and called to tell me he thought the dinner was March 1898, the Five O'Clock Club's 15th anniversary. I knew he was wrong, so I went back to Philadelphia to check it out. The dinner was January 27, 1900! The headline in the Philadelphia Inquirer for 28 January 1900, pg. 3, cols. 2-4, is "CONGRESSMEN WERE SHOWN PHILADELPHIA'S ENERGY/Naval Committee Visits Big Establishments and Dines With 5 O'Clock Club." The article briefly mentions that "Mr. Vandiver humorously referred to the hospitality of Philadelphia." Thus, Vandiver neither helped coin nor popularize "Show Me." Take a history book and cross it out. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 03:01:33 -0400 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: O. K. ( a new "Oh ki" from Boston) The Library Company of Philadelphia had the 1836 COMIC TOKEN (A COMPANION TO THE COMIC ALMANAC), which was published in Boston in 1835. This is from pg. 16: A negro was brought to England, and the first point shown him being the chalky cliffs of Dover, "Oh ki!" he said, "me know now what make the buckras all so white!" "O. K." was first cited in Boston in the spring of 1839; an "Oh ki!" here in a comic periodical likely to have been read by the "O. K." writers may be significant. "OK--IS IT AFRICAN?" by Frederic G. Cassidy can be found in American Speech 55 (1980), pages 269-273. Page 271 discusses "Oh ki." There is an 1816 citation, but it is obscure and punctuated "Oh, ki, massa...." Other examples of "ki" alone are given. My cite is a plain "Oh ki," cited at the right place (Boston) and the right time (1830s). Give it what weight you will. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 12:16:30 -0500 From: Jonathan Gilbert JonG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: question on a word -Reply Many thanks for the replies! In particular, I'll pass on the reference suggestions. I should probably be slightly more specific about what we're looking for: a word (again, my friend writing the dissertation believes one exists) that would fit in the sentence: "Word X has/is [XXXX] with the normal usage of word Y." or else: "These people have [XXXX] the meanings of word X and word Y." That is, we're not looking for examples of X and Y, or for a description of the general phenomenon of X changing meaning or having a special (argot or jargon) meaning, but we want to know if there is a term [XXXX] which would accurately indicate that X and Y are being used synonymously when they are not normally synonyms ... The specific X and Y in question here are "marriage" and "home" (yes, I do realize that "marriage" and "home" overlap a lot in their usage anyway; I'm not familiar enough with my friend's topic to know exactly what she's arguing, but I believe it involves a particular couple's development of an individual and idiosyncratic concept of marriage, which at times becomes, um, blended? with their concept of home to the extent that they will use either word to refer to it ... something like that. Regardless, you can tell from my attempt to state the question why a word is needed ... :-) Replies by email please (I'm not a regular reader of these lists). And thanks again. Jonathan Gilbert JonG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Peter T. Daniels grammatim[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]worldnet.att.net 07/29/97 06:45pm An example would help, but it sounds like you're talking about jargon, slang, or argot (idiosyncratic language varieties defined according to the user group; see textbooks of sociolinguistics). Deborah D K Ruuskanen druuskan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.helsinki.fi 07/30/97 12:00am Words used in separate contexts changing meaning? I should imagine there are quite a lot, particular if you think of American/British differences. [..snip] Carsten Breul upp20a[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ibm.rhrz.uni-bonn.de 07/30/97 05:06am In David Crystal's _The Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language_ (Cambridge: CUP, 1987), there are descriptions of situations resp. phenomena which might be close to what you're friend is looking for. [examples snipped] [The original question:] ... The question is on behalf of another friend who is working on a dissertation (not on a linguistics topic, it's social history of a sort); she wants to describe a situation in which the usage of one word (in a particular context, by a small group of people) has diverged enough from its standard usage that it has become interchangeable with another word, normally either different or unrelated in meaning. My friend believes there is a word for this phenomenon, but nobody we've asked so far has been able to identify it ... does anyone out there know? Jonathan Gilbert JonG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Jul 1997 to 31 Jul 1997 ************************************************