Date: Mon, 31 Jul 1995 14:35:10 -0500


Subject: Re: "...and them..."

Since the "...and them..." thread has been picked up again, I thought I

might mention (in case someone else didn't do it earlier) that a similar

phenomenon is found in a number of Creole languages, apparently without

negative connotation. In each case I know of, the postnominal plural

marker whose form derives from a 3pl. pronoun is placed after a proper name

to render a meaning equivalent to that of "X and them" in English, that is,

"X and his or her family" or "X and people associated with X." Ingrid

Neumann (_Le creole de Breaux Bridge, Louisiane..._, Buske, 1985) notes the

following examples from Louisiana Creole:

Sa se pu Velma-je. "That's for Velma and her family."

Doktoer Grajo~, sa s te doktoer a mom-je. "Doctor Graillant was

the doctor of my mother and her family."

Neumann also cites examples from Alleyne (_Comparative

Afro-American_, Karoma, 1980) for several English-based creoles and one

from Goodman (_A comparative study of Creole French dialects_, Mouton,

1964) for Dominican Creole. Alleyne's example from Jamaica is

Mieri dem "Mary and her friends"

Goodman's example from Dominican Creole is

Mado yo ale beye "Mado 'and company' have gone (to) bathe."

It would be interesting to know if spoken French has anything resembling

the "...and them..." structure which might have served as a model for the


constructions in the French-based creoles.



Tom Klingler

Department of French and Italian

Tulane University

New Orleans, LA 70118

(504) 862-3120 (office)

(504) 865-8020

Email: klingler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]