Subject: ADS-L Digest - 31 Dec 1997 to 1 Jan 1998 There are 5 messages totalling 157 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Citation for 'internot' (re: Gareth's request) (2) 2. Superior anti-words of the year (2) 3. wig out ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 14:00:03 +0200 From: John Hopkins John.Hopkins[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSC.FI Subject: Citation for 'internot' (re: Gareth's request) Dear All, A quick search of my hard drive produced (somewhat to my surprise) only one citation of 'internot' as I had quoted it to you (ref. Gareth's request for citations yesterday). This is the following: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue 16 Dec 97 12:15:20-PST From: Ken Laws LAWS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ai.sri.com THE COMPUTISTS' COMMUNIQUE (Vol. 7, No. 85, December 16, 1997) ....Gartner Group estimates that 30% of all companies internationally have not yet begun to deal with Year 2000 issues. London IT psychologist David Lewis estimates that two in five business leaders are "Internots," still in denial. As an example of the problems that "Y2K stragglers" may face, Brian Wengenroth of Booz, Allen & Hamilton cites a large oil company which recently discovered that thousands of its refinery oil valve controllers will need new chips. However, new chips don't work on the old motherboards, and the new motherboards don't fit the old valves -- so the valves have to be replaced as well. [Bronwyn Fryer, 08Dec97. Paul Milne fedinfo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]halifax.com , comp.software.year-2000, 11Dec97.] .... ------------------------------------------------------------------------- However, my hard drive would not have files from the print publications I had mentioned, only recent e-mailed newsletters such as the above (or other references from files in the websites I administer). I next did a quick Alta-Vista search on "internot" which produced 1285 references, of which I scanned the first 5-6 screens. Most of the references were to proper nouns (newsletter or organizational names) or to uses of the term other than those which either Gareth or I had suggested. This search also did not include any of the print publications I'd mentioned in my original note, but -- primitive search as it was -- does suggest that at least in this material the definition I'd put forward is not being used as a 'mainstream' use of 'internot'. Has anyone else run across usage of 'internot' in the sense I'd used it? Yours, JOHN ************************************************************************* John D. Hopkins Hopkins[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csc.fi http://www.uta.fi/FAST/JH University of Tampere, Finland Phone +358-3-2156116, FAX +358-3-2157200 ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 08:29:56 -0500 From: Al Futrell al[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LOUISVILLE.EDU Subject: Re: Citation for 'internot' (re: Gareth's request) On Thu, 1 Jan 1998, John Hopkins wrote: Dear All, A quick search of my hard drive produced (somewhat to my surprise) only one citation of 'internot' as I had quoted it to you (ref. Gareth's Is this a variant spelling of 'internaut'? Al Futrell -- al[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]louisville.edu -- http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01 Dept of Communication -- University of Louisville ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 16:19:28 EST From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Superior anti-words of the year As we consider our own (morally neutral) vote on words of the year, here'= s the=0Achilly annual report from Lake Superior:=0A=0A Word police think = the linguistic value of `yadda, yadda, yadda' is zip, zero,=0Anada =0A Re= uters News Service =0A=0A SAULT STE. MARIE, Mich. -- The word police at L= ake Superior State University=0Anominated a New Year's list of slang word= s and cliches they want banned=0AWednesday, issuing a plea that speakers = avoid the annoying "yadda, yadda,=0Ayadda." =0AOther words and phrases fa= iling the school's standard for proper English usage=0Awere the abbreviat= ed greeting "whassup?" or the even shorter " 'sup?", the=0Aconfessional "= my bad" and the insulting "talk to the hand" (not to my face). =0A Since = 1976, the university's public relations staff has solicited nominations= =0Afor its New Year's list of cliches, slang words or redundancies that c= rop up=0Ain current usage and deserve banishment. =0A Instead of "whassup= ?" the school suggested people just try saying hello.=0A"It's pass=E9," s= aid nominator Greg Arceri of Northville, Mich., of the=0Agreeting. =0A Ma= ny found the oft-repeated phrase "my bad" to be an infantile alternative = to=0Aadmitting a mistake, and others opined that "yadda, yadda, yadda" wa= s merely=0Aan irritating substitute for "and so on." =0A The overused "Ge= neration X" came in for criticism -- possibly from those in=0Athe 20-some= thing age group -- for being a bland moniker deserving a=0Areplacement, a= lthough no suitable one was offered. =0A Some favored words and prefixes = used by the media were also excoriated. The=0Asuperlative "ever" as in "t= he best film adaptation of a John Grisham novel=0Aever!" was viewed as an= unneeded superlative that is redundant. =0A The prefix "re-" was so over= used that one contributor to the list suggested=0A"we should re-double ou= r efforts to re-think this issue" before reusing it. =0A In addition, the= school suggested that athletes who insist on giving "110=0Apercent" shou= ld be held to it, and anyone who announces plans to "take it to=0Athe nex= t level" ought to be held back. =0A The phrase "show me the money," popul= arized by the football player played by=0ACuba Gooding Jr. in the movie J= erry McGuire, was seen as funny once -- but no=0Amore. =0A And casino ope= rators ought to be instructed to quit calling their sport=0A"gaming" when= everyone knows it's a euphemism for gambling, gambling,=0Agambling. =0A = Yadda, yadda, yadda. =0A ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 19:56:32 EST From: Adamrdamaa Adamrdamaa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: wig out lance---I also heard it, "'wig out," this way in the 60s. Allan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 22:08:10 EST From: GarethB2 GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Superior anti-words of the year Allan, Can you repost an ASCII version of this? Something got lost (or added) in the upload (smart quotes, etc.). Gareth -------------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Co-author _Happy Mutant Handbook_ , _Internet Power Toolkit_ Author, _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 31 Dec 1997 to 1 Jan 1998 *********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 1 Jan 1998 to 2 Jan 1998 There are 16 messages totalling 598 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Citation for 'internot' (re: Gareth's request) (3) 2. Dilbert for WOTY? 3. ADS "Oscar" Awards; British actors in US 4. British actors in US (2) 5. pull a dilbert 6. Deletia (Was Re: Dilbert for WOTY?) (6) 7. Legible Superior anti-list 8. PODUNK ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:48:43 EST From: GarethB2 GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Citation for 'internot' (re: Gareth's request) In a message dated 1/1/98 1:40:48 PM, al[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LOUISVILLE.EDU wrote: A quick search of my hard drive produced (somewhat to my surprise) only one citation of 'internot' as I had quoted it to you (ref. Gareth's Is this a variant spelling of 'internaut'? I don't think so. I've heard the term Internaut used simply as a substitue for netsurfer, netizen, cybernaut, i.e. a dedicated Net user. [Internaut, cybernaut, and netizen are all in the Microsoft Computer Dictionary, 3rd Edition, BTW.] -------------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Co-author _Happy Mutant Handbook_ , _Internet Power Toolkit_ Author, _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 01:56:01 EST From: GarethB2 GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Dilbert for WOTY? In a message dated 12/31/97 11:57:13 PM, Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM wrote: I've been going through "Among the New Words" and past WOTYs, and I could have missed it, but "Dilbert" isn't there. So, for Word-of-the-Year, I'd like to nominate my close friend-- [deletia] I think this is an excellent suggestion. I've gotten numerous Dilbert-related submissions to my Jargon Watch column. In the Jargon Watch book, I have: Dilberted To be exploited, oppressed, or screwed over by one's boss. Dervied from Dilbert, the geek-in-hell comic strip character. The corresponding adjective is "Dilbertesque." Also submitted (but not published): Dilbertland or Dilbert Zone A company or organziation that has a reputation for being excessively (or obsessively) bureaucratic. [This was submitted by Jef Raskin, one of the creators of the Macintosh]. I've seen a number of other permutations (such as "pulling a Dilbert). -------------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Co-author _Happy Mutant Handbook_ , _Internet Power Toolkit_ Author, _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 02:11:47 EST From: GarethB2 GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Citation for 'internot' (re: Gareth's request) In a message dated 1/1/98 12:00:42 PM, John.Hopkins[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSC.FI wrote: Dear All, A quick search of my hard drive produced (somewhat to my surprise) only one citation of 'internot' as I had quoted it to you (ref. Gareth's request for citations yesterday). This is the following: ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue 16 Dec 97 12:15:20-PST From: Ken Laws LAWS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ai.sri.com THE COMPUTISTS' COMMUNIQUE (Vol. 7, No. 85, December 16, 1997) .....Gartner Group estimates that 30% of all companies internationally have not yet begun to deal with Year 2000 issues. London IT psychologist David Lewis estimates that two in five business leaders are "Internots," still in denial. As an example of the problems that "Y2K stragglers" may face, Brian Wengenroth of Booz, Allen & Hamilton cites a large oil company which recently discovered that thousands of its refinery oil valve controllers will need new chips. However, new chips don't work on the old motherboards, and the new motherboards don't fit the old valves -- so the valves have to be replaced as well. [Bronwyn Fryer, 08Dec97. Paul Milne fedinfo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]halifax.com , comp.software.year-2000, 11Dec97.] .... ------------------------------------------------------------------------ [deletia] Searching my archives, I found the following, sent to me by Kevin Kelly of Wired in July '97 (from a piece on businesstech.com): "INTERNOTS IN EUROPE Recent studies of executives in Europe show a resistance to the Internet and the World Wide Web that shows no signs of abating. Many of those in leadership positions in European companies do not see any advantages to using the net and the web to further business operations and processes. These findings reinforce the notion that Europe is far behind the United States in net and web usage. In the U.S., business is the largest growth area for the net. In one survey, six out of ten European managers said "they had no links into cyberspace and no intention of ever getting on the Internet." So this is a usage similar to John's citation above. -------------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Co-author _Happy Mutant Handbook_ , _Internet Power Toolkit_ Author, _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 02:53:56 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: ADS "Oscar" Awards; British actors in US ADS "OSCAR" AWARDS The article that Allan just posted made the Channel 11 News at 10 tonight. Our Word-of-the-Year award should be no less popular. We should have more awards! I suggest Aw'scuz (Oscars), which we can announce in March. It would include Best Film (Miss Daisy, I'm drivin' you to de sto'), Best Actor (Are you talkin' to me?), Best Actress (the Meryl Streep award), Best Supporting Actor, Best Supporting Actress (or, Female Actor), but also Worst Film, Worst Actor, Worst Actress, Worst Supporting Actor, and Worst Supporting Actress. ISN'T THERE DIALECT IN FILM?? WHY DO WE COMPLETELY IGNORE IT?? The NAACP and Latino organizations have such awards--why not us? And of course, if we had an online magazine, people could make suggestions and vote... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- BRITISH ACTORS IN U. S. This interesting article (which would, along with "AMISTAD anachronisms," the above "Oscars," and even Gareth's column, all be in the online magazine that we don't have) was originally in the New York Times. I found it in the Toronto Globe and Mail, 30 December 1997, pg. C2: British actors cross the linguistic divide By Michael McGough New York Times Service (over photo of Leslie Howard and Vivien Leigh) TALKING THE TALK/ More and more Britons are learning American accents to take on roles in Hollywood. What is perplexing about this traffic in verbal versatility is that it is largely in one direction. (below photo) It's more difficult for a British actor to do a convincing American accent than vice versa because of differences in the muscular action that produces sounds. Britons who have succeeded include Leslie Howard (above), shown with Vivien Leigh in _Gone With the Wind_, David Suchet (below right), who plays a New Yorkerin the film _Sunday_, and Peter Sellers (below left), shown in _Dr. Strangelove_. (...) American actors bridle at one popular explanation: that British actors are simply better trained than Americans. A less offensive variation on that thesis is that in Britain, a country in which dialect connotes not only region but also social class, actors had better be able to adjust their accents endlessly. The most satisfactory explanation for the accent gap, though, seems to lie less in linguistics than in economics. "Follow the money," that watchword of Watergate reporting, explains the influx of British actors into American roles. Tim Monich, one of the dialect coaches who help actors master the Queen's English (an ADS online magazine would interview this guy--ed.), states this thesis succinctly: "There is much more incentive for English actors, Australian actors, Canadian actors, Irish actors to have a career in Hollywood and to increase their casting, of course, to do American roles." (...) Thus an American accent can be an asset even when an audience is not going to be primarily American. As a teen-ager, the British actor Simon Fenton crossed the ocean to play a United States Navy brat in _Matinee_, the acclaimed 1993 comic film set in Key West, Fla., during the Cuban missile crisis. That performance led to a tryout for a role in _Chris Cross_, a Canadian television series that was distributed in both Britain and the United States. The linguistic trade deficit between British and American actors may be aggravated by a professional decision by American actors not to attempt foreign accents. Monich said directors and studio heads are leery of having Hollywood stars speak in a foreign accent, because this would dilute their bankable images. Opportunity, talent and training being equal, is it easier linguistically for a British actor to play an American than vice versa? There is a remarkable lack of unanimity on this question. And, indeed, several expert insist that the American-to-British manoeuvre should actually be the easier one. "For an American to do a standard British accent, it's a matter of dropping sounds," (stage director Richard) Seyd said. "For an English actor to do an American accent, it's a matter of adding sounds, and it makes the accent more self-conscious when you add a sound, and more difficult when you add a sound, than when you're leaving sounds out." Fenton agrees that doing an American accent involves adding sounds to what he sees as the "neutral" British accent. But, unlike Seyd, he sees the British-to-American transformation as the easier one. "I think it's easier to add than to take away," Fenton said. But David Alan Stern, a dialect coach and the author of a series of manuals and audiotapes called _Acting with an Accent_ (IS THIS GUY A MEMBER OF THE AMERICAN DIALECT SOCIETY? Gotta ram these points home--ed.), said Fenton's explanation would be "exactly the same perspective that an American actor would feel" if called upon to do a British accent. Stern said it is more difficult for a British actor to do a convincing American accent than vice versa, not because of the addition or subtraction of sounds but because of differences in the muscular action that produces sounds. Standard British speech, he added, focuses its tone and resonance in the front part of the mouth, whereas American speech centres (American speech centres?-ed.) most of its muscle work in the middle part of the tongue. It is easier, Stern said, for Americans to learn to use the front-face muscles that produce a British resonance than for British speakers to make the muscles lazy to seem American. Is Stern's explanation the last word on the linguistic side of the accent gap? No such luck. Suchet, who has been an acting teacher as well as an actor, agrees with Stern that British English is more muscular, but he draws an opposite conclusion. "In order to speak American, the first thing you have to do is not move your mouth very much," he said. "Now, that's an easier thing to do than to say to someone, 'Move your mouth more.'" Any opinions? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 09:06:19 -0500 From: Orin Hargraves OKH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: British actors in US I would subscribe to the unpopular (in some quarters) opinion that Britis= h actors are of necessity simply trained better to imitate any number of accents than Americans are, and so generally succeed at American accents better than American actors do at British ones. A sidelight: in the current film "The Sweet Hereafter", Iain Holme flawlessly portrays a North American (is he American or Canadian? it's never clear) ambulance chaser and comes across convincingly in mannerisms= and accent, but slips up in a single line of dialog: he says *five MILES away*, with stress on the word *miles*, which is the British way, whereas= we would say *five miles AWAY*. Did his accent coach nod off? (Or do Canadians in fact say *five MILES away*)? Orin Hargraves OKH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 11:46:52 -0500 From: Barnhart barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM Subject: pull a dilbert Sorry to have misinformed you that pull a dilbert was a legitimate find. It is not, at least not in my records. Regards, David Barnhart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:35:27 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Deletia (Was Re: Dilbert for WOTY?) At 01:56 AM 1/2/98 EST, you (GarethB2 GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM ) wrote: [deletia] Is this a latinism indicating that there was "deleted wording" here? How is it formed, I mean morphologically? (Not being sarcastic here, just honestly curious.) I know the philological/editorial term "delenda" (things to be deleted; cf. memoranda "things to be remembered"), but not "deletia." Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 12:41:16 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Citation for 'internot' (re: Gareth's request) At 02:11 AM 1/2/98 EST, you wrote: "INTERNOTS IN EUROPE Recent studies of executives in Europe show a resistance to the Internet and the World Wide Web that shows no signs of abating.... Postfixed "not" is maybe based in part on the early-90's fad-formula or catch-phrase of the form "[assertion] -- NOT!" I.e., someone who sails the internet is an internaut, someone who refuses to do so is an "inter -- NOT" or "internot." ???? Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 10:05:25 -0800 From: "A. Maberry" maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: Deletia (Was Re: Dilbert for WOTY?) i wondered about "deletia" myself, especially about the presence of the "i". i would have expected "deleta" = "things deleted" neuter plural participle of "deleo" or "delita" the perf. part. = "things having been deleted" . Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu On Fri, 2 Jan 1998, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: At 01:56 AM 1/2/98 EST, you (GarethB2 GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM ) wrote: [deletia] Is this a latinism indicating that there was "deleted wording" here? How is it formed, I mean morphologically? (Not being sarcastic here, just honestly curious.) I know the philological/editorial term "delenda" (things to be deleted; cf. memoranda "things to be remembered"), but not "deletia." Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:18:01 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Deletia (Was Re: Dilbert for WOTY?) At 10:05 AM 1/2/98 -0800, you wrote: i wondered about "deletia" myself, especially about the presence of the "i". i would have expected "deleta" = "things deleted" neuter plural participle of "deleo" or "delita" the perf. part. = "things having been deleted" . Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu I figure it's maybe humorous, pendatry-joshing, deliberately fractured Latin. Others have written me offlist in the last little bit to say they themselves have seen deletia, and used it. Maybe it's a what one would prescriptivistically term a deleterious (delet-hilarious?) usage.... Delenda is an old-fashioned editorial term (cp. the better known "addenda"). Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 13:56:56 EST From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Legible Superior anti-list Sorry for the clutter in the previous posting of this story! I'll try again: ----------- Word police think the linguistic value of 'yadda, yadda, yadda' is zip, zero, nada Reuters News Service SAULT STE. MARIE, Mich. -- The word police at Lake Superior State University nominated a New Year's list of slang words and cliches they want banned Wednesday, issuing a plea that speakers avoid the annoying "yadda, yadda, yadda." Other words and phrases failing the school's standard for proper English usage were the abbreviated greeting "whassup?" or the even shorter " 'sup?", the confessional "my bad" and the insulting "talk to the hand" (not to my face). Since 1976, the university's public relations staff has solicited nominations for its New Year's list of cliches, slang words or redundancies that crop up in current usage and deserve banishment. Instead of "whassup?" the school suggested people just try saying hello. "It's passe," said nominator Greg Arceri of Northville, Mich., of the greeting. Many found the oft-repeated phrase "my bad" to be an infantile alternative to admitting a mistake, and others opined that "yadda, yadda, yadda" was merely an irritating substitute for "and so on." The overused "Generation X" came in for criticism -- possibly from those in the 20-something age group -- for being a bland moniker deserving a replacement, although no suitable one was offered. Some favored words and prefixes used by the media were also excoriated. The superlative "ever" as in "the best film adaptation of a John Grisham novel ever!" was viewed as an unneeded superlative that is redundant. The prefix "re-" was so overused that one contributor to the list suggested "we should re-double our efforts to re-think this issue" before reusing it. In addition, the school suggested that athletes who insist on giving "110 percent" should be held to it, and anyone who announces plans to "take it to the next level" ought to be held back. The phrase "show me the money," popularized by the football player played by Cuba Gooding Jr. in the movie Jerry McGuire, was seen as funny once -- but no more. And casino operators ought to be instructed to quit calling their sport "gaming" when everyone knows it's a euphemism for gambling, gambling, gambling. Yadda, yadda, yadda. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:16:12 -0500 From: "Frank R. Abate" abatef[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: PODUNK Let me weigh in with some evidence on Podunk: The Index volume to the Omni Gazetteer lists placenames with Podunk in 7 states: CT, MA, ME, MI, NY, UT, VT. There are populated places or "locales" (such are often neighborhood name= s) in CT, MA, MI, NY, VT. MA has a P Cemetery and a P Pond. In CT, aside from a P River, there is a P Pond, and I have first-hand knowledge of a residential part of a shoreline town, Guilford (S of Hartford about 35 miles), which uses this name. There is a P Road in Guilford. A look in one of the "national yellow pages" CD-ROMs may well reveal more= , though the pejorative use of the name now probably limits its use. George Stewart's "Names on the Land", p. 338, says: "In 1846 a series of humorous magazine articles used the title _Letters from Podunk,_ and the name became established as the joking equivalent of an insignificant, backward village. In time it sprouted a variant, Squeedunk." Frank Abate ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:19:14 EST From: GarethB2 GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Deletia (Was Re: Dilbert for WOTY?) In a message dated 1/2/98 5:37:08 PM, downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU wrote: Is this a latinism indicating that there was "deleted wording" here? How is it formed, I mean morphologically? (Not being sarcastic here, just honestly curious.) I know the philological/editorial term "delenda" (things to be deleted; cf. memoranda "things to be remembered"), but not "deletia." I have no idea about the etymology of "deletia." It's an old Usenet convention. It's not in the New Hacker's Dictionary, but it is in the MS Computer Dictionary (3rd Edition): deletia n. Omitted material. The term is used in responses to Usenet or mailing list messages to indicate that some unnecessary material has been excluded from the incorporated message being answered. I wonder if it's not a blending of delete+minutia, but that would just be a wild guess. Also, given the hacker propensity for humorous "pendatry-joshing" coinages, it very well could be "deliberately fractured Latin." I'll ask around. -------------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Co-author _Happy Mutant Handbook_ , _Internet Power Toolkit_ Author, _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 15:15:57 -0500 From: Larry Horn laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Deletia (Was Re: Dilbert for WOTY?) At 10:05 AM 1/2/98 -0800, you wrote: i wondered about "deletia" myself, especially about the presence of the "i". i would have expected "deleta" = "things deleted" neuter plural participle of "deleo" or "delita" the perf. part. = "things having been deleted" . Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu I figure it's maybe humorous, pendatry-joshing, deliberately fractured Latin. Others have written me offlist in the last little bit to say they themselves have seen deletia, and used it. Maybe it's a what one would prescriptivistically term a deleterious (delet-hilarious?) usage.... Delenda is an old-fashioned editorial term (cp. the better known "addenda"). Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu "Delenda" has an even richer history. If I'm not mistaken, it was Cato (the younger or older; can't quite recall that part) who used to end every speech in the Roman senate with the warning "Carthago delenda est", and of course he eventually got his wish when Carthage was unrecoverably deleted. And yes, one WOULD expect "deleta", as in "excreta" (I may have also heard "secreta"), but for some reason it's "deletia" we get. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 14:48:02 -0600 From: Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: British actors in US As someone who's done some of this sort of thing--"accents/dialects"--on-air in radio and on television, I must say that the descriptions of both British and American English as "adding" or "dropping" sounds, or being more or less "muscular," seem to be based on native-speaker assumptions, not on observable, categorical phenomena. When I imitated the RP-dialect of the royal family on "morning-zoo" radio, was I dropping my r's (and by one acccount therefore doing something easy) or was I fronting (and therefore adding a feature)? These kinds of descriptions seem to me to be "coaching" strategies--things coaches tell players/actors to convince them that something is doable. Nothing in the American/Australian/English/Scottish/Irish/Welsh/etc. accents/dialects make any one of them easier or harder. "Doing" an accent/dialect well would seem to me to be a function of similarity between native and target accents/dialects as well as the individual's ear for such things, AND economics. I will have to second Popik's point about Hollywood's call for American accents/dialects--to me, this is (forgive me) paramount. As they say at Lake Superior, "Show me the money!" Greg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Jan 1998 18:09:52 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Deletia (Was Re: Dilbert for WOTY?) At 03:15 PM 1/2/98 -0500, you (Larry Horn laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU ) wrote: And yes, one WOULD expect "deleta", as in "excreta" (I may have also heard "secreta"), but for some reason it's "deletia" we get. Hey, if we had to use, in English, only Latin- and Greek-based words that were morphologically well formed according to those two langs' "classical" grammars, we'd have to dump everything from "megaton" (megalo- is the combining form) to maybe about a quarter of the Latin-Greek macaronic combos that populate the pages of a contemporary medical dictionary! (He said, not meaning in any way to start up the traditional descriptivist/prescriptivist mud-wrestle and gotcha-contest.) Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Jan 1998 to 2 Jan 1998 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 2 Jan 1998 to 3 Jan 1998 There are 2 messages totalling 45 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Podunk 2. Un-subscribe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 00:09:59 -0500 From: ALICE FABER faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Podunk In response to Frank Abate's posting of evidence regarding Podunk-qua-place name: | | Let me weigh in with some evidence on Podunk: | | The Index volume to the Omni Gazetteer lists placenames with Podunk in 7 | states: CT, MA, ME, MI, NY, UT, VT. | | There are populated places or "locales" (such are often neighborhood name= | s) | in CT, MA, MI, NY, VT. MA has a P Cemetery and a P Pond. | | In CT, aside from a P River, there is a P Pond, and I have first-hand | knowledge of a residential part of a shoreline town, Guilford (S of | Hartford about 35 miles), which uses this name. There is a P Road in | Guilford. Could you give an indication of where in Guilford? My Champion map of New Haven County (c. 10 years old) doesn't list Podunk Road (or any other name containing Podunk) in its index, which does list some *very* minimal looking roads in Guilford. Alice Faber ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 11:10:58 PST From: melissa smith mel_6968[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HOTMAIL.COM Subject: Un-subscribe I wish to un-subscribe Melissa S. Smith mssmit01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Jan 1998 to 3 Jan 1998 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Jan 1998 to 4 Jan 1998 There are 6 messages totalling 457 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. 1997 Notable Phrase; Hockey Talk; Furniture Lingo; Net Time 2. Un-subscribe 3. Podunk 4. Sundae; Sundowners; Median; Under the Influence; Two Cents; et al. 5. throwed rolls (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 04:24:22 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: 1997 Notable Phrase; Hockey Talk; Furniture Lingo; Net Time 1997 NOTABLE PHRASE We collect "new" words, but not "notable" ones. Grammar errors and the like can be included in the latter. This notable phrase of 1997 was in the Toronto Globe and Mail, 30 December 1997, William Houston's 1997 World of Sports, pg. S2, col. 5: Pittsburgh Pirate pitching coach Pete Vuckovich, after being ejected from a game for arguing with an umpire: "I was a victim of circumcision." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- HOCKEY TALK In the same article, column 4, is clicheed hockey talk: Readers in 1997 continued to complain about hockey cliches: Gary Breen of Ottawa wrote, "Every morning, various sports announcers inform us that a particular game ended in a tie 'after overtime' (or some variation). As far as I know, it is not possible for a game to end in a tie without an overtime period having been played. By leaving out the word 'overtime,' additional time will be available to sportscasters to describe the latest Leaf loss." Ralph Eastman of Vancouver contributed a couple of comments on usage: "Whenever an athlete makes a key play in a tight situtation, the announcer will invariably note, 'he had the presence of mind' to do whatever. With the possible exception of boxers, it's a safe bet most athletes have the presence of mind. Why not say wits, alertness or composure? In football, we're often told that a player who was injured, but managed to leave the field without help, walked off 'under his own power.' How about 'unassisted' or 'on his own?'" Peter Lloyd of Ottawa wrote, "There's the all-pervasive redundancy 'off of'--as in 'he was knocked off of the puck' or 'the puck deflected in off of his skate.' Here in Ottawa, we are being treated not only to the improving and entertaining Senators, but also a new twist on icing the puck. No longer does a player go back to touch the puck and cause an icing call. On Senator broadcasts, the player 'touches up' the puck." Keith Morrison of Vancouver (not the journalist) listed hockey play-by- play phrases that irritate him: "The teams are at full and even strength." If both teams are at full strength, they must be even. "The puck is in back of the net." Why not simply, "behind the net"? "Smith wristed the shot." A wimpy expression. Danny Gallivan said it better--a player "snapped" a shot or "fired" it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- FURNITURE LINGO This is from the Toronto Globe and Mail, 30 December 1997 (it was a good day, and the hotel gave 'em out for free), pg. B10, col. 5: Furniture lingo The latest suggestions for new business terminology come from _Haworth Inc._, a Holland, Mich.-based office furniture manufacturer: .Chunking: Those tilting stacks of paper aren't a mess, they're proof of chunking or "consolidating related subject matter into fewer, but larger, overarching groups of information." .Visual noise: Objects and materials in the work space that distract from rather than support current and important mental tasks. Churning helps reduce visual noise. .Churning: The cyclical activity of purging, absorbing, creating and relocating artifacts such as folders, reports and notes to ensure that what's on top and visible is the current and most important task. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- NET TIME This is from the Village Voice, 6 January 1998, Machine Age by Austin Bunn, pg. 29, col. 1: Year of Living Digitally Amid the year's avalanche of freshly minted jargon--"blamestorming," "crapplet," and "backhoeing the server farm" (translation, anyone?)--1997's best invention was as much a new philosophy as a neologism: "Net time." In an industry based on change, accelerated "Net time" falls loosely in between dog years and flat-out instantaneous evolution. It gets at the fact that people still working on the Web after three years feel like they have endured a lifetime of hype, spin and "turnkey" "solutions." No surprise for the year that shipped Moore's Law (which posits that processor speed doubles every 18 months) to the recycling bin. Patience and perspective have become the online industry's scarcest resources. But lest the hyperactivity of "Net time" erase history itself, we're due to stop the clock and immortalize the most telling developments, if not always progress, of the past 12 months in a yearbook of human traffic in the Alley... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 13:01:58 -0300 From: Homero Chami Homero[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SOFTHOME.NET Subject: Re: Un-subscribe I wish to un-subscribe bnt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]overnet.com.ar ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 08:59:24 -0500 From: Laurence Horn laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Podunk This is to confirm the assertion in the initial post: In response to Frank Abate's posting of evidence regarding Podunk-qua-place name: | | Let me weigh in with some evidence on Podunk: |... | In CT, aside from a P River, there is a P Pond, and I have first-hand | knowledge of a residential part of a shoreline town, Guilford (S of | Hartford about 35 miles), which uses this name. There is a P Road in | Guilford. Could you give an indication of where in Guilford? My Champion map of New Haven County (c. 10 years old) doesn't list Podunk Road (or any other name containing Podunk) in its index, which does list some *very* minimal looking roads in Guilford. Alice Faber MY map (New Haven Citimap available from the AAA) has Podunk Road traveling north-south (and vice versa) in the eastern reaches of Guilford, extending for c. 2 1/2 miles just this side of Madison (into which it wanders at its far northern point). It doesn't make it as far south as I-95 or as far north as Route 80, but that's the area. I take the nonce spelling as "Poduck" to be a scribal error on the part of the mapmaker. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 18:20:49 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Sundae; Sundowners; Median; Under the Influence; Two Cents; et al. SUNDAE I visited Asbury Park, New Jersey to settle this "sundae" thing once and for all. While in nearby Long Branch, I had spotted a 1903 advertisement for "DAY'S ICE CREAM GARDEN/ The Most Popular Resort for Ladies and Gentlemen on the Atlantic Coast/ 219 Asbury Avenue/ Next to Ocean Hotel." A 1900-01 BOYD'S DIRECTORY OF MONMOUTH COUNTY shows W. F. Day & Brothers (Wilbur F., Pennington M. and Waters B.), ice cream and caterers, 219 Asbury Avenue, Asbury Park and 48 Pitman Avenue, Ocean Grove. Day's would also expand to Newark and Morristown. I checked 1899-1904 for advertisements for "sundaes" at Day's. (It would be kind of a pun--sundae at Day's--you see.) Perhaps "sundae" originated in Wisconsin or Ithaca, New York--I just wanted an early article and/or advertisement related to Day's Ice Cream Garden. Through 1904, there were many, many ads for Day's, but no ad mentioned "sundae." Oh well. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- SUNDOWNERS From Sundae to Sundowner (now historical). This phrase is in the DA from 1904 for this use. This is from the Asbury Park Daily Press, 13 January 1900, pg. 2, col. 3: QUEER LOT OF MEN. To Be Found in No Other American City But Washington. Those Familiar with Their Ways Call Them "Sundowners"--They Are Victims of Cowardice and Self-Indulgence. This is the story of "The Sundowner;" and it has never before been told. Probably no other city in the world--certainly no other city in this country--has such a goodly number of these people as can be found in our national capital. Scholars tell us that all discussion should be preceded by definition; and that many great debates have been caused by lack of understanding of terms on the part of those in dispute. Therefore, the learned men tell us, every term should be properly defined by a public speaker or writer, in order that the listener or reader may the better apprehend what is intended to be conveyed. Well, "a Sundowner" is a man who practices a profession in this city after the working hours of the day have passed away, and when men in the learned professions have laid aside their books, their papers, their clients and patients, and dismissed them from their minds. "A Sundowner goes to work when other men have ceased their daily labors and endeavors. "A Sundowner" is liable to work long after sundown; probably until midnight, or even later. It is because he practices his profession after sundown that he is called a Sundowner. These people work all day; that is, from nine o'clock in the morning until four o'clock in the afternoon. (...) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- MEDIAN I had thought "median" was an ancient term, but it was popularized with the 1900 census. OED has the March 1900 _Boston Transcript_ citation, but doesn't give the date, nor page number. This is from the Asbury Park Daily Press, 15 March 1900, pg. 5, col. 4: "MEDIAN" IN THE CENSUS. New Word Coined to Supplant Average and Center. A new word seems destined to come into use with the census of 1900 and the discussions that will follow the interpretation of its results, says a Washington correspondent of the Boston Transcript. The word is "median." It ought to displace average and center for the greater number of ordinary consus uses, since the notion of "average" which most people have is really expressed by "median," while "average" means quite another thing. There is room in our terminology for both terms, just as we distinguish between plurality and majority to good advantage in discussing election returns. The average age of the population of the United States, for example, is 25 years; the median age is 21 years. The latter means the point at which there are as many people above as below. (...) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- UNDER THE INFLUENCE The OED has an 1879 citation from Mark Twain; an 1866 citation is in parenthesis. The Asbury Park Journal, 20 January 1877, pg. 2, col. 2, has a story titled: A Monkey "Under the Influence." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- TWO CENTS The DA has a few items for "two cents." I'll put my two cents in with the Asbury Park Daily Press, 12 February 1900, pg. 4, col. 4: TAYLOR A MARKED MAN. So a Reporter Hears in Frankfort, Ky. "LIFE NOT WORTH TWO CENTS." (...) _Life Not Worth Two Cents._ Another lawyer said: "My personal opinion is that his life is not worth 2 cents. (...)" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- MAIN CHEESE RHHDAS has 1902-1903 George Ade for "main (or head) cheese." This is from the Asbury Park Daily Press, 11 November 1899, "Billy's Opinion of the Drama" by John Hazelden (who wrote various slang items using Billy), pg. 3, col. 3: The fellow that she wuz stuck on was the main cheese of the play. He was "it"--the real hero. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- HOT DOG In the same article, the Asbury Park Daily Press, 11 November 1899, pg. 3, col. 3: I like that kind of a show better than one of these society plays where a bunch o' swell geezers in dress suits come in an' put on a lot o' hot dog an' don't do nothin' but talk. About a week earlier, the Asbury Park Daily Press, 3 November 1899, pg. 3, col. 1, there is a drawing of a swell. The caption is "HOT GARMENTS." About a week later, the Asbury Park Daily Press, 17 November 1899, pg. 3, col 2: Whenever he thinks the's just as good as these mugs that wear high collars an' put on dog all he wants to do is to go up an' call on 'em some evening an' see how quick they'll rush him into the parlor an' take his hat--not. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- FRANKFURTER From the Asbury Park Daily Press, 24 August 1899, pg. 3, col. 3: The Streets of New York It was lunchtime and the "frankfurter and roll" men of Frankfort street were doing their best to appease the appetites of the 200 or 300 newsboys who throng Park row. (...)--New York Commercial Advertiser. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- THE REAL DOUGHNUT In the same "Billy" article, the Asbury Park Daily Press, 11 November 1899, pg. 3, cols. 3-4: But they never fazed him. I think he must 'a' wore steel undercloze. But he evened up in the end, all right, all right. He got the girl an' the coin an' was set free with a nice clean shave an a button-hole banquet. He wuz the real doughnut, and no mistake. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- SHAKE DOWN O. K., the DA has June 1899. This "shake down" is also from the Asbury Park Daily Press, 3 November 1899, pg. 3, col. 2: I used to see him once in awhile, an' I knew they had him clean to the bad, an' so I wuzn't surprized when he tried to shake me down. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- OREOS The headline (a score of a football game) in the Asbury Park Daily Press, 13 November 1899, pg. 1, col. 3 reads: OREOS 6, LONG BRANCH 0. A FIERCE CONTEST ON THE HOLLYWOOD GROUNDS. The Oreos were tough cookies, no doubt. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- ALL-AMERICA College football is over. I have yet to trace the origin of All- America(n)--maybe I'll visit the Football Hall of Fame in Canton, Ohio one of these days. Spalding football guides began in 1903, but collegiate football guides began in 1883. The All America teams probably started in the 1890s. This is from the Asbury Park Daily Press, Gossip of the Gridiron by E. G. Westlake, 24 November 1899, pg. 3, col 5: Who shall say that in the state of Wisconsin, where the loyalty of the people for the 'varsity at Madison is almost as great as that of Gen. Lawton to "Old Glory," Rodgers would not have been placed on everybody's "All- America" eleven? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- LITTLE WHIMPY Not to be left off from the study of "wimp" is this item from the St. Nicholas magazine, copied in the Asbury Park Journal, 10 February 1877, pg. 2, col. 5: LITTLE WHIMPY. Whimpy, little Whimpy, Cried so much one day, His grandma couldn't stand it, And his mother ran away; His sister climbed the hay-mow, His father went to town, And cook flew to the neighbor's In her shabby kitchen gown. Whimpy, little Whimpy, Stood out in the sun, And cried until the chickens And the ducks began to run; Old Towser in his kennel Growled in an angry tone, Then burst his chain, and Whimpy Was left there all alone. Whimpy, little Whimpy, Cried, and cried, and cried, Soon the sunlight vanished, Flowers began to hide; Birdies stopped their singing, Frogs began to croak, Darkness came, and Whimpy Found crying was no joke. Whimpy, little Whimpy, Never'll forget the day When grandma couldn't stand it, And his mother ran away. He was waiting by the window When they all came home to tea, And a gladder boy than Whimpy, You never need hope to see. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 19:08:25 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: throwed rolls As we drove east on Interstate 10, from Mississippi toward Pensacola FL, we saw several billboards touting the "throwed rolls" at a restaurant. Is anyone here familiar with "throwed rolls"? thanks, beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english department of english and linguistics indiana university purdue university fort wayne, in 46805 219 481 6772 simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 19:46:07 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: throwed rolls At 07:08 PM 1/4/98 EST, you wrote: As we drove east on Interstate 10, from Mississippi toward Pensacola FL, we saw several billboards touting the "throwed rolls" at a restaurant. Is anyone here familiar with "throwed rolls"? thanks, beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english department of english and linguistics indiana university purdue university Can't say as I have, but from the sound of it they may possibly (???) be a relative of "beaten biscuits," which are so called because they are made without yeast: just flour, salt, sugar, and lard (with some variations). BB's are instead lightened by beating the dough with a mallet or hammer for as long as 20-30 minutes. "Beaten biscuits" is a midlands/southern term, and for some reason is especially associated with Maryland; sometimes they are called "Maryland beaten biscuits." People in Maryland think of them as a typically regional food from the "olden days." DARE has a distribution-map for "beaten biscuits." On I-10 by the way: I'm told it is thought by some to be the closest "Interstate" equivalent to the old cross-the-USA Route 66. I-10 runs from Jacksonville to LA, I think. So I'd imagine one sees plenty from I-10. Of course there's also 40 that runs from NC to CA, 80 that runs from NY to SF, 90 that runs from MA to WA, etc. But 10 is the southernmost cross-country route. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Jan 1998 to 4 Jan 1998 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 4 Jan 1998 to 5 Jan 1998 There are 18 messages totalling 552 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. throwed rolls (5) 2. All-America teams (4) 3. British actors in US 4. RE throwed rolls 5. FINDMAIL is archiving mailing lists without permission 6. No subject given 7. All-America teams now "I vas dere, Charley" (2) 8. "Mudville" update 9. Redneck Computer Terms 10. "Canuck" in NAUGHTY MARIETTA ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 01:44:44 -0600 From: Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: throwed rolls As we drove east on Interstate 10, from Mississippi toward Pensacola FL, we saw several billboards touting the "throwed rolls" at a restaurant. Is anyone here familiar with "throwed rolls"? I'm familiar with this restaurant--they actually throw rolls at/to you when you ask for more. As far as I know, this is a trend that has failed to propagate, which may be for the best. Gregory J. Pulliam Illinois Institute of Technology Lewis Department of Humanities Chicago, IL 60616 gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.cns.iit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 08:35:49 -0500 From: Larry Horn laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: All-America teams Barry, in reference to your auto-suggestion... ALL-AMERICA College football is over. I have yet to trace the origin of All- America(n)--maybe I'll visit the Football Hall of Fame in Canton, Ohio one of these days. Spalding football guides began in 1903, but collegiate football guides began in 1883. The All America teams probably started in the 1890s. This is from the Asbury Park Daily Press, Gossip of the Gridiron by E. G. Westlake, 24 November 1899, pg. 3, col 5: ... be forwarned that what Canton, Ohio houses is just the Professional Football Hall of Fame. I was dere, Charley. I believe there is a college football HOF too, but I don't know where. Not that the Pro Football HOF wouldn't provide lots of interesting cites too, of course... (The Basketball Hall of Fame in Springfield, Mass. on the other hand is for both college and pro hoops.) Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 09:21:31 EST From: Dfcoye Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: British actors in US As someone who has coached dialects and used them on stage I heartily second Greg Pulliam's assessment - and would only add that the original posting is another good example of the "I know all about language just because I speak it" phenomenon. Saying things like "learning British for an American involves dropping sounds so it's easier" is absurd. I assume they're referring to the /r/, but other sounds have to be "added" for an American learning RP- you have to distinguish metal from medal, you have to distinguish the vowels before /r/ in marry-merry-Mary, hurry-furry, mirror-meer if like most of Americans you don't. You have to merge the vowels of lore and law, and perhaps add a connecting R to the latter if followed by a vowel sound... Dale Coye Dept. of Eng. The College of NJ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 09:51:53 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE throwed rolls Lambert's in Sikeston, Missouri, home of throwed rolls. It's one of those Interstate highway culture items, like Walnut Bowls and Stuckey's. I don't think Interstate 10 runs through Missouri. I do know that Lambert's has billboards all over the continental United States. Also, "throwed rolls" is usually pronounced "thowed roes" by the folks I know from that part of southeast Missouri, just north of the bootheel and an hour or so from the Mississippi River. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 09:40:33 -0600 From: Bonnie Briggs BBRIGGS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ADMIN2.MEMPHIS.EDU Subject: Re: throwed rolls Oh yes, and there is no metaphor involved here. There is a restaurant in Missouri that started this "tradition". The name of the place and town escapes me now, but the gist of it is that you go in, sit down and the food is brought to your table in large serving bowls -- like people used to do at home before we became addicted to the television. A server walks through the dining area asking if anyone wants a roll. If you raise your hand, the server then throws you a roll. Hopefully you will catch said roll. I've never been to the place in Missouri, but I know several folks who have and they all seemed to enjoy their experience. I'm still into "pass the rolls, please" - I don't relish the thought of someone throwing anything to me at the dinner table. I believe several other places have picked up on this "down-home" type dining and copied the place in Missouri. Bonnie Briggs The University of Memphis As we drove east on Interstate 10, from Mississippi toward Pensacola FL, we saw several billboards touting the "throwed rolls" at a restaurant. Is anyone here familiar with "throwed rolls"? thanks, beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english department of english and linguistics indiana university purdue university fort wayne, in 46805 219 481 6772 simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:25:57 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: FINDMAIL is archiving mailing lists without permission This is extracted from a regular internal posting of my ISP, world.std.com (Software Tool & Die), Newton, Mass. I apologize for posting it to the entire list, but I don't know who is the list maintainer. I will send them the entire article by email on request. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ =========================================================== TODAY on The WORLD Vol. 4 #002 Friday, January 02, 1998 =========================================================== TIP: FindMail may be archiving your mailing list email [...] FindMail is a (currently) free service that archives mailing list mail. In the past they have asked list owners if they may subscribe to the list in order to archive it, but now list owners are reporting FindMail is subscribing and archiving without asking permission from the owner. If you are the owner of a mailing list, you should check your list of members to see if findmail.com is subscribed. If they are, your list is being archived. Remove them from the list if you do not wish this archiving to happen. =========================================================== [] TODAY ON THE WORLD is (c) copyright 1998 by Software Tool & Die. Its contents may freely be redistributed as long as credit is given. =========================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:43:21 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: throwed rolls At 09:40 AM 1/5/98 -0600, you wrote: Oh yes, and there is no metaphor involved here. There is a restaurant in Missouri that started this "tradition". The name of the place and town escapes me now, but the gist of it is that you go in, sit down and the food is brought to your table in large serving bowls -- like people used to do at home before we became addicted to the television. A server walks through the dining area asking if anyone wants a roll. If you raise your hand, the server then throws you a roll. Hopefully you will catch said roll. I've never been to the place in Missouri, but I know several folks who have and they all seemed to enjoy their experience. I'm still into "pass the rolls, please" - I don't relish the thought of someone throwing anything to me at the dinner table. I believe several other places have picked up on this "down-home" type dining and copied the place in Missouri. Bonnie Briggs The University of Memphis O, I get it now: it's a gimmick, part of a theme restaurant. The formation "throwed rolls" probably plays off of past-participle/noun collocations used for particular versions of foods which have undergone a certain action as part of the food-prep process: filled/stuffed rolls or buns, raised muffins, beaten biscuits, mashed potatoes, **tossed salad** (maybe that's the joke here?), etc. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:27:34 -0500 From: Elizabeth Gibbens gibbens[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EROLS.COM Subject: No subject given Does anyone have an original citation for "kelly bag"? It is an old-fashioned, tailored handbag that's square in front. I've traced it to Women's Wear Daily of 1995-7 vintage with no connection to Grace Kelly mentioned; however, I believe that the purse must be named for her. Elizabeth Gibbens ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:05:33 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: All-America teams "I vas dere, Charley"--wow, that's a real oldie, one my mother (b. 1906) used. Note that she, a Minnesotan, always said 'vas,' not 'was,' and the 's' was unvoiced. (She was obviously imitating a phrase she'd heard, but where did it come from?) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:47:31 -0600 From: Thomas Creswell creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET Subject: Re: All-America teams now "I vas dere, Charley" I remember a radio program in the 30's featuring "Baron Munchausen"-- an inspired liar. When his interlocutor, Charley, expressed doubt about one of his tales, the Baron would always say," Vas you dere, Charley?" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 13:59:55 -0500 From: Larry Horn laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: All-America teams Beverly Flanigan wrote, "I vas dere, Charley"--wow, that's a real oldie, one my mother (b. 1906) used. Note that she, a Minnesotan, always said 'vas,' not 'was,' and the 's' was unvoiced. (She was obviously imitating a phrase she'd heard, but where did it come from?) Actually, I only realized after reading my posted message that I had typed "was" rather than the obviously correct "vas", which my mind's ear somehow hears as an unstressed "fuss", German-style. And if anything the second-person interrogative is (or was) even more frequent: "Vas [fuss] you dere, Charley?" Larry (not a native speaker of the relevant dialect, but a native hearer of the expression) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 14:11:01 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: All-America teams now "I vas dere, Charley" Ah, yes, the question form "Vas you dere, Charley?" rings an even louder bell in my memory, I suppose because the lack of S-V agr struck my prescriptivist-teenager ears. Dave Bergdahl adds that it was supposedly Yinglish (Yiddish English), but would Baron von Munchausen have spoken Yinglish? The radio program could make him whatever it wanted to, of course. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:28:11 -0800 From: Peter Richardson prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: throwed rolls Is anyone here familiar with "throwed rolls"? Sure they're not "thawed" rolls? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:02:17 -0600 From: Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: All-America teams be forwarned that what Canton, Ohio houses is just the Professional Football Hall of Fame. I was dere, Charley. I believe there is a college football HOF too, but I don't know where. Not that the Pro Football HOF wouldn't provide lots of interesting cites too, of course... (The Basketball Hall of Fame in Springfield, Mass. on the other hand is for both college and pro hoops.) The College Football Hall of Fame is in South Bend, Indiana. Gregory J. Pulliam Illinois Institute of Technology Lewis Department of Humanities Chicago, IL 60616 gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.cns.iit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 15:26:40 -0800 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: throwed rolls On Mon, 5 Jan 1998, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: O, I get it now: it's a gimmick, part of a theme restaurant. The formation "throwed rolls" probably plays off of past-participle/noun collocations used for particular versions of foods which have undergone a certain action as part of the food-prep process: filled/stuffed rolls or buns, raised muffins, beaten biscuits, mashed potatoes, **tossed salad** (maybe that's the joke here?), etc. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu Along those lines, I'm looking forward to a billboard advertising a restaurant that features "tossed cookies." Peter McGraw ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 19:36:52 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: "Mudville" update With Stockton, California (aka Mudville in the 19th century) holding an undisputed lead as the inspiration for Ernest Thayer's "Mudville" in his famous poem "Casey at the Bat," I telephoned the Massachusetts Historical Society (ll54 Boylston St., Boston MA 02205; 6l7-536-l608) to see if a Mudville might also have existed in Massachusetts. The result of the call: thus far no evidence has emerged that a Mudville existed in Massachusetts, although a definitive statement to this effect would require a search of all local sources. The ball now is in the court of whoever may believe that a Mudville did exist in Massachusetts. Where is the source to verify this belief? I am grateful to Jennifer Tolpa (Reference Librarian at the Mass. Hist. Soc.) for checking various sources: 1) _Massachusetts Encyclopedia Geographical, Geological, Historical and Topographical_, by Abraham Paluba. (evidently no date is given) 2) various gazeteers 3) _Historical Data Relating to Counties, Cities and Towns in Massachusetts_, by the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, 1975 edition. This book lists towns both present and past. 4) a few histories of the state (Ms. Tolpa checked the indexes), e.g. A.B. Hart's _Commonwealth History of Massachusetts_, 5 vols. (NY: Russell & Russell). 1966. None of the above sources mentions a Mudville. Barring any surprises, this message now concludes the search. On 12/19/97 Mr. Smith (Boston Globe) e-mailed me: "Thanks for the often-fascinaing info. Stockton is indeed looking strong...." My only request to Mr. Smith is that he let me know if he writes up anything on Mudville; I would of course want to share it with the ads-l subscribers. --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 20:40:26 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Redneck Computer Terms This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_884050826_boundary Content-ID: 0_884050826[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I'll forward this item a friend sent me. I don't think Gareth Branwyn wrote it--who knows? --Barry Popik --part0_884050826_boundary Content-ID: 0_884050826[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.2 Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: hkayler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cityu.edu Received: from relay11.mail.aol.com (relay11.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.11]) by air13.mail.aol.com (v37.8) with SMTP; Mon, 05 Jan 1998 12:41:35 -0500 Received: from inroads.cityu.edu (inroads.cityu.edu [192.220.247.110]) by relay11.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with SMTP id MAA01716 for Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 12:37:48 -0500 (EST) Received: from excalibur.cityu.edu (excalibur.cityu.edu [192.220.247.97]) by inroads.cityu.edu (8.6.5/8.6.6.1) with SMTP id JAA15569 for Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ; Mon, 5 Jan 1998 09:37:43 -0800 Received: by excalibur.cityu.edu with VINES-ISMTP; Mon, 5 Jan 98 9:43:28 PST Date: Mon, 5 Jan 98 9:43:25 PST Message-ID: vines.g,x7+viFgoA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]excalibur.cityu.edu X-Priority: 3 (Normal) To: Arahm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]accessone.com , Steve[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]stylos.net , John[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]American_image.com , Kimh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccc.wa.com , Madchen999[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM , Tmesis[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msn.com , Phildrill[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]juno.com , Mmowat3885[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM , Cthorsen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]microsoft.com , Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM From: hkayler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cityu.edu "Heidi Kayler" Reply-To: hkayler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cityu.edu Errors-to: hkayler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cityu.edu Subject: Fwd: X-Incognito-SN: 591 X-Incognito-Version: 4.10.136 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Comments: Here's a chuckle for the new year. Heidi - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Original Message - - - - - - - - - - - - - - To: imail[alhileman[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]prodigy.net], imail[wessling[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]simadet.sea.mrms.navy.mil], Sandy Anderson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HRD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CityUniv, Celeste Lynch[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HRD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CityUniv, Heidi Kayler[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HRD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CityUniv, Nancy Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HRD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CityUniv From: Laura Spangenberg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Academics[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CityUniv Date: Monday, January 5, 1998 at 9:36:40 am PST Attached: None REDNECK COMPUTER TERMS BACKUP - What you do when you run across a skunk in the woods BAR CODE - Them's the fight'n rules down at the local tavern BUG - The reason you give for calling in sick BYTE - What your pit bull dun to cusin Jethro CACHE - Needed when you run out of food stamps CHIP - Pasture muffins that you try not to step in TERMINAL - Time to call the undertaker CRASH - When you go to Junior's party uninvited DIGITAL - The art of counting on your fingers DISKETTE - Female Disco dancer FAX - What you lie about to the IRS HACKER - Uncle Leroy after 32 years of smoking HARDCOPY - Picture looked at when selecting tattoos INTERNET - Where cafeteria workers put their hair KEYBOARD - Where you hang the keys to the John Deere MAC - Big Bubba's favorite fast food MEGAHERTZ - How your head feels after 17 beers MODEM - What ya did when the grass and weeds got too tall MOUSE PAD - Where Mickey and Minnie live NETWORK - Scoop'n up a big fish before it breaks the line ONLINE - Where to stay when taking the sobriety test ROM - Where the pope lives SCREEN - Helps keep the skeeters off the porch SERIAL PORT - A red wine you drink with breakfast SUPERCONDUCTOR - Amtrak's Employee of the year SCSI - What you call your week-old underwear --part0_884050826_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Jan 1998 21:35:08 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "Canuck" in NAUGHTY MARIETTA A friend told me that "Canuck" is in the 1910 Victor Herbert operetta NAUGHTY MARIETTA. I don't know how I missed that--it was made into a popular 1935 film and I have a huge crush on Jeanette MacDonald. JEANETTE MACDONALD: I'm dead! The New York Public Library's copy (call number JNF 77-37) is signed by the stage star Emma Trentini ("Paul J. Woodward/ Nov. 18, 1910/ With love, Emma") and also by Victor Herbert! The text is also available in AMERICAN OPERA AND MUSIC FOR THE STAGE/ EARLY TWENTIETH CENTURY/ THREE CENTURIES OF AMERICAN MUSIC/ A COLLECTION OF AMERICAN SACRED AND SECULAR MUSIC, VOL. 6, edited by Martha Furman Schliefer, G. K. Hall & Co., 1990. NAUGHTY MARIETTA, a comic opera in two acts, had book and lyrics by Rida Johnson Young and music by Victor Herbert. It was presented by Oscar Hammerstein in New York City on 7 November 1910. The first act takes place in the Place D'Armes, New Orleans, about the year 1780. The song "Tramp! Tramp! Tramp!" is sung by Captain Dick (Captain Richard Warrington, or Nelson Eddy for you film fans) with Followers, _Allegro marcato_, and is on pages 43-48: We're Planters and Canucks, Virginians and Kaintucks, Captain Dick's own Infantry, Captain Dick's own Infantry! JEANETTE MACDONALD: I loved Captain Dick! POPIK: Tramp! Tramp! Tramp! This surely is an anachronism. The earliest "Canuck" we have is 1835, not 1780. This completely destroys the rigorous standards I have for turn-of- the-century light operettas. The MLA moves from Toronto to San Francisco next year. As everyone knows, Jeanette MacDonald's followup to NAUGHTY MARIETTA was SAN FRANCISCO-- JEANETTE MACDONALD: I refuse to talk about this. I'm dead! POPIK: The way you looked so good and were still able to sing "San Francisco" after that volcano was just incredible. JEANETTE MACDONALD: I'm not coming to the 1998 San Francisco MLA! It was a Hollywood set! It was an EARTHQUAKE! And I'm still dead!! POPIK: Whatever. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Jan 1998 to 5 Jan 1998 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 5 Jan 1998 to 6 Jan 1998 There are 7 messages totalling 263 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. ADS Luncheon Uncovered 2. "Mudville" update 3. Infoglut synonyms? 4. kelly bag 5. Help with recent message 6. Pron of the name of the 23rd letter of the alphabet Down Under? (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 08:15:33 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: ADS Luncheon Uncovered Allan, I'm not sure if I sent this message before;I meant to, but I'm in an e-mail frenzy these days. Carol says we paid for the luncheon, but neither of us wants the default. Carol Preston - Cheddar Burger (medium rare) Dennis Preston - Club Sandwich See you soon, Dennis At last, thanks to David Barnhart's pavement-pounding, we have a home for the ADS Annual Luncheon 1:00-2:15 pm Saturday, January 10. The speaker will be *William Labov* of the University of Pennsylvania. The place will be right across the street from our hotel: Houlihan's, 380 Lexington Ave. at 42nd Street. For $25 inclusive (payable to American Dialect Society), you will get - fresh garden salad with dressing - choice of entree - apple pie - unlimited coffee, tea and soda. You may also order other beverages from your server at additional cost. Now here is the deal on the choice of entree. We are supposed to tell the restaurant by *January 1* what our choice is. Naturally, not everyone will have been able to choose by then. So I'm making item 6 (Chicken Florentine) the default choice. But if you're going to the luncheon, and would like something different, please let me know by January 1. (Some of you have already paid. If not, you do not need to *pay* in advance, but advance reservations would be helpful; and they will also guarantee you a place. Send reservations and menu choices directly to me at AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com.) Choice of entrees: 1. Grilled chicken breast with mashed potatoes and sugar snap peas 2. Cheddar burger with lettuce, tomato, shaved red onion and natural cut fries 3. Plaza Club: sliced turkey breast and ham with bacon, provolone, shredded lettuce, tomato and mayo on freshly baked pan bread with natural cut fries 4. Chicken fingers with honey mustard dressing and natural cut fries 5. Chicken Caesar salad 6. Chicken Florentine: grilled chicken with Florentine sauce and vegetables. See you there! - Allan Metcalf, ADS Executive Secretary Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 10:03:25 -0500 From: "Frank R. Abate" abatef[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: "Mudville" update My check of evidence at hand shows the following: Mudville "locale" or "populated place" is in: TN, LA, TX per Omni Gazetteer Index (not historical, but quite complete for current names, esp. of populated places) There is no listing for Mudville at all in the 1876 "Monitor Guide to Pos= t Offices and RR Stations in the US and Canada" (publ. by Bullinger, 1876).= Also no listing for Mudville in the Street Directory of the Principal Cities of the US Embracing Letter-Carrier Offices Established to April 30= , 1908 (publ. by Postmaster-General, Washington; repub. by Gale), though th= is is truly only covering principal cities (about 1,200 places). Comment: Since "Mudville" had to fit the meter, and it is a somewhat les= s than positive name, it's my guess that it was made up for the poem. Frank Abate ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 13:05:19 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: Infoglut synonyms? Does anyone have any synonyms for "infoglut"? I am putting together a tally of my regular reading and I need a word to describe it. Also, I need a word for a person who takes in all that information. I usually call myself an "infopig" but that suggests some kind of blissful pleasure involved with wallowing in all the information. Maybe "infoslave" would be better. Any suggestions? By the way, below is the list of my serious regular incoming information (so far). I used to have more, but I eliminated some lists and magazines that didn't have value. Also, the list does not include information sources that are primarily entertainment, press releases, junk mail, or when I find the New York Post in a cab (which, if you hear them tell it, is the only way most people ever read the Post). I am certain that my list is short compared to some subscribers to this list. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com -- PRINT -- New York Times New Yorker New York Wired Harper's Weekly Village Voice New York Press Upside InternetWeek MacWeek Silicon Alley PCWeek Micro Publishing News New Media InformationWeek SunExpert Small Business Computing Print on Demand Solutions Network Computing Direct Marketing News Direct Marketing News International DRTV News Electronic Commerce World Computer Reseller News Integration Management Imaging Magazine Digital Production Executive MacWorld LanTimes Sales & Field Force Automation (just showed up in my mailbox yesterday. Free subscription. I'll send in the card and continue to get it until and stop if it proves to be useless, as some do). -- RADIO -- BBC (an hour each night either on WNYC at 11 p.m. or on shortwave any other evening hour on 5975 MHz, and also a little bit in the morning on 5965 or 9515 MHz) -- EMAIL -- InformationWeekDaily Wired Daily TidBits NetBits [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NY NUA Internet Survey NUA Modest Proposals Infobeat Financial Daily Macway Evangelist -- WEB -- Macintouch MacOSRumors OGrady's PowerBook Page MacCentral Macintosh Resource Page MacFixit VersionTracker ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:26:52 +0000 From: Jim Rader jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM Subject: Re: kelly bag The earliest cite I turned up through a quick search of Nexis was New York Times, May 8, 1982, where both Grace Kelly bag and Kelly bag are used. Grace Kelly bag turns up earlier, in the Washington Post for Nov. 11, 1979. Cites are in agreement that this was a handbag sold by Hermes (grave accent on last e), the Paris-based chain of shops selling very expensive women's accessories. There seem to be various versions of how Grace Kelly's name came to be associated with the handbag. According to the Atlanta Constitution (Oct. 16, 1994), Hermes actually supplied Grace Kelly with such a handbag. Another story is that "...in 1956, Princess Grace (nee Kelly) of Monaco, hid one of her pregnancies behind that very bag on a cover of Life magazine" (NYT Oct. 18, 1986); the fashion-conscious then requested copies of the bag. Merriam files have a picture of one version of the bag that appeared in the New York Times magazine (Aug. 11, 1985, p. 56). Jim Rader ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 15:20:45 -0500 From: "Margaret G. Lee -English" mlee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.HAMPTONU.EDU Subject: Help with recent message Can someone send me the message of Jan. 2 regarding the university that developed a New Year's list of such slang words as "my bad," "whassup?", "yadda, yadda, yadda," etc. that should be banned. I inadvertently deleted it. Thanks, Margaret Lee Hampton University ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:06:33 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Pron of the name of the 23rd letter of the alphabet Down Under? I have been assured that I will get a nice surprise if I can reveal how citizens Down Under pronounce the name of the 23rd letter of the alphabet. If you help me, I'll share (if the surprise is shareable!). Bethany The query: ----- I knew I should have just asked you in the first place!!!! Now, is "dub-ya" a strictly North American thing, or do they say it that way in those Upside Down Places Down Under? And the ten bucks I win from this one will buy you a surprise! ----- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:23:58 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: Pron of the name of the 23rd letter of the alphabet Down Under? At 08:06 PM 1/6/98 -0500, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: I have been assured that I will get a nice surprise if I can reveal how citizens Down Under pronounce the name of the 23rd letter of the alphabet. If you help me, I'll share (if the surprise is shareable!). That's easy. They pronounce it "emm". Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Jan 1998 to 6 Jan 1998 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 6 Jan 1998 to 7 Jan 1998 There are 15 messages totalling 529 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. All America (1889) (2) 2. infoglut synonyms 3. Fwd: All-America query (2) 4. pronounce it MOTHERFUCKER 5. Pron of the name of the 23rd letter of the alphabet Down Under? 6. Beetle (2) 7. "I vas dere" 8. Rude Message from Denizen (5) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:12:24 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: All America (1889) "All America" is an Americanism. It's not slang, so it's not in the HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG. It's not regional (it's All American), so it's not in the DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN REGIONAL ENGLISH. It wasn't in the DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS and it wasn't in the OXFORD ENGLISH DICTIONARY that I could see. Drove me nuts!! At the College Football Hall of Fame in South Bend, Indiana, Nancy Eide (Nancy.Eide[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CollegeFootball.org) responded that "All America" was first used in "This Week's Sport" (whatever that is) in 1889. There must have been other lists published soon after this--leading to the phrase "everybody's All American" that I found ten years later and that was the title of a Frank Deford novel and film. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 23:22:22 -0600 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: infoglut synonyms While I don't have a synonym for "infoglut," I do have one for "infopig": info junkie. It's been around at least a couple of years, at least in the Twin Cities. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 00:37:20 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: All America (1889) At 12:12 AM 1/7/98 EST, you wrote: "All America" is an Americanism. It's not slang, so it's not in the HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG. It's not regional (it's All American), so it's not in the DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN REGIONAL ENGLISH. It wasn't in the DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS and it wasn't in the OXFORD ENGLISH DICTIONARY that I could see. Drove me nuts!! At the College Football Hall of Fame in South Bend, Indiana, Nancy Eide (Nancy.Eide[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CollegeFootball.org) responded that "All America" was first used in "This Week's Sport" (whatever that is) in 1889. There must have been other lists published soon after this--leading to the phrase "everybody's All American" that I found ten years later and that was the title of a Frank Deford novel and film. See also, in OED2, all, section E (combs., far down in the entry), meaning 6b, where the first cite, dated Nov. 1888, is from _Outing_ (a periodical, I imagine). All-American appears thirteen times times in OED2, but the early cites are in the passage just indicated. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 01:01:19 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Fwd: All-America query This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_884152879_boundary Content-ID: 0_884152879[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII O.K., so much for expert help! Obviously, some work has to be done here... --part0_884152879_boundary Content-ID: 0_884152879[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.2 Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Nancy.Eide[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CollegeFootball.org Received: from relay09.mail.aol.com (relay09.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.9]) by air19.mail.aol.com (v37.8) with SMTP; Tue, 06 Jan 1998 12:30:20 -0500 Received: from mail.JGSullivan.com (alwayshealthy.com [209.67.26.134]) by relay09.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id MAA06884 for Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:28:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from NANCYE (72.chicago-34.il.dial-access.att.net [12.67.129.72]) by mail.JGSullivan.com (8.8.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id MAA22967 for Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:24:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:24:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: 199801061724.MAA22967[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.JGSullivan.com X-Sender: neide[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]collegefootball.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 To: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM From: Nancy Eide Nancy.Eide[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CollegeFootball.org Subject: Re: All-America query Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit DEAR BARRY-THE TERM ALL AMERICA WAS FIRST USED IN 1889 IN "THIS WEEK'S SPORT". WE DO HAVE A LIBRARY-FOR AN APPOINTMENT, PLEASE CALL KENT STEPHENS AT 219-235-5711. THANK YOU FOR YOUR INQUIRY. At 12:22 PM 1/5/98 EST, you wrote: Dear College Football Hall of Fame, I've got a simple question! When was the first time (what publication?) that the term "All-America(n)" was used? Also, do you have a library? What are the hours? Do you have books and articles on football terminology? --Barry Popik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com 225 East 57th Street, Apt. 7P New York, NY 10022 --part0_884152879_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 02:31:45 -0500 From: Denizen logger[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALIFORNIA.COM Subject: pronounce it MOTHERFUCKER ALL LIST MEMBERS --- PRONOUNCE THIS --- GET ME OFF YOUR LIST................................ JERKS,ASSHOLES, MOTHERFUCKERS.......... WHY DO YOU PERMIT OTHER PEOPLE TO SUB OTHER PEOPLE'S ADDRESSES WITHOUT YOU CONFIRMING IT???? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 02:32:33 -0500 From: Denizen logger[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALIFORNIA.COM Subject: Re: Pron of the name of the 23rd letter of the alphabet Down Under? get me off this list............. never asked to be on. At 08:23 PM 1/6/98 +0000, you wrote: At 08:06 PM 1/6/98 -0500, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: I have been assured that I will get a nice surprise if I can reveal how citizens Down Under pronounce the name of the 23rd letter of the alphabet. If you help me, I'll share (if the surprise is shareable!). That's easy. They pronounce it "emm". Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 02:33:44 -0500 From: Denizen logger[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CALIFORNIA.COM Subject: Re: Fwd: All-America query get me off this list. now,,,,,,,,,,,,,now,,,,,,,,,,,,,now,,,,,,,,,,,,,,now.................!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Or do we discuss raping penguins????????? At 01:01 AM 1/7/98 EST, you wrote: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_884152879_boundary Content-ID: 0_884152879[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII O.K., so much for expert help! Obviously, some work has to be done here... --part0_884152879_boundary Content-ID: 0_884152879[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.2 Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: Nancy.Eide[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CollegeFootball.org Received: from relay09.mail.aol.com (relay09.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.9]) by air19.mail.aol.com (v37.8) with SMTP; Tue, 06 Jan 1998 12:30:20 -0500 Received: from mail.JGSullivan.com (alwayshealthy.com [209.67.26.134]) by relay09.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id MAA06884 for Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:28:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from NANCYE (72.chicago-34.il.dial-access.att.net [12.67.129.72]) by mail.JGSullivan.com (8.8.4/8.7.2) with SMTP id MAA22967 for Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ; Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:24:36 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 1998 12:24:36 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: 199801061724.MAA22967[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.JGSullivan.com X-Sender: neide[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]collegefootball.org (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 To: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM From: Nancy Eide Nancy.Eide[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CollegeFootball.org Subject: Re: All-America query Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit DEAR BARRY-THE TERM ALL AMERICA WAS FIRST USED IN 1889 IN "THIS WEEK'S SPORT". WE DO HAVE A LIBRARY-FOR AN APPOINTMENT, PLEASE CALL KENT STEPHENS AT 219-235-5711. THANK YOU FOR YOUR INQUIRY. At 12:22 PM 1/5/98 EST, you wrote: Dear College Football Hall of Fame, I've got a simple question! When was the first time (what publication?) that the term "All-America(n)" was used? Also, do you have a library? What are the hours? Do you have books and articles on football terminology? --Barry Popik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com 225 East 57th Street, Apt. 7P New York, NY 10022 --part0_884152879_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 08:56:56 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Beetle A recent NYT article said that the Times was the first to describe the Volkswagen as a "beetle." RHD doesn't list "Beetle" as a car, and I don't have access to OED2 here at the moment. Could someone with access to Lexis confirm whether "Beetle" as a name for the car predates the Times reference? And if there isn't one in print, is there any indication from the Times whether it was coining the term or reflecting usage in speech at the time? Alan B. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:47:10 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: "I vas dere" Thomas Creswell creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET I remember a radio program in the 30's featuring "Baron Munchausen"-- an inspired liar. When his interlocutor, Charley, expressed doubt about one of his tales, the Baron would always say," Vas you dere, Charley?" I've seen this question in print, used in the same way -- to answer a doubter's challenge to a story. I *think* that I saw it as "... Sharley?", but I'm not sure. The line occurred in dialogue, and I believe it was in quotes-within-quotes -- " 'Vas you dere, Sharley?' " -- to show that the speaker was consciously using a quotation. I have a strong feeling that the author was Robert A. Heinlein, who could very well have been a fan of the radio program, and the book may have been _The Number of the Beast_. My impulse is to, when I get home tonight, grab it and sit down to find the quotation, but I have done MUCH TOO MUCH of that lately (especially with Steven K.Z. Brust's "Dragaera" books*), and I know I'd damn well better not. (The book is 500 pages and would keep me up till 3 am if I let it.) Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ * Dragaera observations : http://world.std.com/~mam/Cracks-and-Shards/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:38:19 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Beetle At 08:56 AM 1/7/98 -0500, you (baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vax.vmi.edu) wrote: A recent NYT article said that the Times was the first to describe the Volkswagen as a "beetle." RHD doesn't list "Beetle" as a car, and I don't have access to OED2 here at the moment. Could someone with access to Lexis confirm whether "Beetle" as a name for the car predates the Times reference? And if there isn't one in print, is there any indication from the Times whether it was coining the term or reflecting usage in speech at the time? Alan B. OED2 beetle n.2, meaning 2c has a 1960 _Motor_ cite using the phrase "the familiar `beetle'" about the 1961 model of the vehicle. In car circles, it was apparently already seen as a somewhat well-known phrase at that date, but still needing (so to speak) "neologism quotation-marks." There is also a 1958 cite from _American Mercury_, and a still earlier cite that is in brackets (from a 1946 issue of _Motor_) because the cite says "rather like a beetle on stilts," indicating the author does not see "beetle" in this sense as a common noun yet. OED also cites the German noun K"afer, but does not say whether this is a parallel usage, or on the other hand the ancestor of the English "beetle" usage. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:00:19 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: Re: Rude Message from Denizen Note: This message has nothing to do with American Dialects. It is a collection of information about our rude subscriber. Interesting reading, I think. The author of the extremely rude messages is named Jon Erik Beckjord. Although he often uses "logger[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]california.com" as the reply-to address, his usual email address seems to be "erik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]crossfields.com". You might also try "davis[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uccomputers.com" , "ufomuseum[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com", "beckjord[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]transbay.net", "davis[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]transbay.net" or "ufobfmuseum[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]value.net". He appears to be the curator of the UFO, Bigfoot and Crop Circles Museum. The web site can be found at http://www.crossfields.com/~ufomus/. Beckjord's service provider can be reached at webmaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]crossfields.com. A short article on the museum can be found at http://www.cnn.com/US/9704/19/ufo.museum/index.html. A picture of Beckjord can be found at http://www.ufomind.com:80/ufo/people/b/beckjord/. Beckjord can possibly be reached at Box 9502, Berkeley, CA 94709 (510-848-2233), or 817 Columbus Ave., #161 San Francisco, CA 94133 (415-974-4339). He has indicated that he has a BA and MBA from UC Berkeley, and claims to be a tentative candidate for mayor of San Francisco. He has sent messages to newsgroups like law.listserv.net-lawyers looking for someone to handle a lawsuit against someone who he believes has maligned him. He posts messages to alt.privacy.anon-server looking for ways to send anonymous email, and also to alt.bigfoot.research, alt.paranormal.crop-circles, alt.conspiracy.area51 and misc.activism.militia. According to http://www.mcs.com/~kvg/smear/v42/ss950605.htm#beckjord2, Beckjord was found guilty of harassing a neighbor in Los Angeles. A mock trial was held on the "Jones and Jury" TV show on Jan. 25th, 1995. (Case No. 94-1082; Show No. 012595). [The information below is edited from a bio at http://www.four11.com/cgi-bin/Four11Main?userdetail&XX=&FormId=201,262F82D,3BF6700, 50EBEFA6_200,1,3BF6703,33C22E9B] Past High School: Bethesda-Chevy Chase HS Attended Tulane Univ., New Orleans, LA; UC-Berkeley Has worked as film crew member and urban planner. Has lived in London, Paris, New York City and Washington D.C. Has worked for US Air Force. As hobbies, includes skiing, sailing, reading, debating, anomalies, investigations and photography. [The information below is edited from a bio at http://www.ufomind.com:80/ufo/people/b/beckjord/profile.shtml] Formerly a Field investigator for MUFON in Los Angeles County. Operated Crypto-Zoology Museum in Malibu until it was burned out in l993 by Malibu fires. Operated 'UFO, Bigfoot & Loch Ness Monster Museum' in Venice district of Los Angeles for six months in l995." Believes in "Old Faithful," a UFO that shows up at the same time every morning over Area 51. Dismisses 50% of the Bigfoot 'physical animal' theorists, 60% of the Loch Ness 'physical animal' theorists. Beckjord claims to have taken "paranormal 'ghost' photos" of Nichole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman after the murders at Nichole's condo and at the O.J. house. Beckjord says: "[I support] positions that some UFOs may be nuts and bolts, whilst others may be energy-forms based on human OOBE trips, whilst others may be a collection of beings clustered together doing the shape-shifter boogy. Source may be ultra= dimensional (a la Keel and Vallee) but some could be interstellar. Other UFOs may be simply advanced craft we are testing. No one position is the real truth." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:45:30 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Rude Message from Denizen At 11:00 AM 1/7/98 -0500, you (Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM ) wrote: Note: This message has nothing to do with American Dialects. It is a collection of information about our rude subscriber. Interesting reading, I think[....] Well, after reading through the fascinating material that followed, I think it sounds as if he is perfectly capable of unsubbing himself. Or did the CIA subscribe him? Maybe he thinks the _American_ Dialect Soc. is part of a govt. conspiracy against him. Denizen of where, by the way? Just wondering. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 11:47:54 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: Rude Message from Denizen At 11:00 AM 1/7/98 -0500, you (Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM ) wrote: Note: This message has nothing to do with American Dialects. It is a collection of information about our rude subscriber. Interesting reading, I think[....] Well, after reading through the fascinating material that followed, I think it sounds as if he is perfectly capable of unsubbing himself. Or did the CIA subscribe him? Maybe he thinks the _American_ Dialect Soc. is part of a govt. conspiracy against him. For what it's worth, the address from which he sent his various messages is not subscribed to the ADS list; I don't know how he expects anyone to unsubscribe him. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 12:01:49 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Rude Message from Denizen At 11:47 AM 1/7/98 -0500, you (Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM ) wrote: For what it's worth, the address from which he sent his various messages is not subscribed to the ADS list; I don't know how he expects anyone to unsubscribe him. For what it's worth, I've seen folks like him before. They have zillions of accounts because they are always posting things that get them in trouble with their ISPs, and are being unsubbed or blocked, but want to retain access through alternate channels. They also tend to forge their headers so you don't know where they are posting from, unless you really know all the technical ins and outs of e-mail. On another list I'm on, there's a guy with at least six diferent addresses/accounts at any given time, maybe more. When they unsub one address, he uses or obtains another. All this to say that the address through which he's getting ADS messages may or may not have anything at all to do with the address from which he SEEMS (note emphatic caps) to have posted to the list. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 09:09:08 -0800 From: "Thomas L. Clark" tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Re: Rude Message from Denizen Grant Barret's message, revealing EVERYTHING about our rude visitor from an alien life had me ROTFL. I used to be concerned that almost everything about me could be collected by various searches on the web. But Grant's "outing" of our subDenizen has to demonstrate such power used by the forces of good. Cheers, tlc Thomas L. Clark Department of English University of Nevada, Las Vegas Las Vegas NV 89154-5011 tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu 702/895-3473 FAX 702/895-4801 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Jan 1998 to 7 Jan 1998 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 7 Jan 1998 to 8 Jan 1998 There are 8 messages totalling 287 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. BOOK REVIEW: Medical Meanings: A Glossary of Word Origins 2. Ski/Skee 3. fame 4. ADS Search Engine 5. RE ADS Search Engine (2) 6. RE ADS Search Engine 7. "as best as I can remember" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:19:26 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: BOOK REVIEW: Medical Meanings: A Glossary of Word Origins BOOK REVIEW: MEDICAL MEANINGS: A GLOSSARY OF WORD ORIGINS by William S. Haubrich, M.D., F.A.C.P. American College of Physicians, 1997 253 pages, $29.95 This book reminds me of LADYFINGERS & NUN'S TUMMIES (about food words). You read it, and it's mildly interesting. Then you realize this has been done before, probably several times before. Then you check a few entries. Then you start to get really mad! In a year, this is the type of book that could appear on the Barnes & Noble or Strand book store discount shelves, and at $8.95 you'll go home happy. At $29.95 for 253 pages (without illustrations or charts or diagrams), you want your money back. The jacket states, "Enjoyable for browsing, indispensable for research (really?--ed.), _Medical Meanings_ is a unique volume (unique?--ed.), one sure to please students, physicians, and word connoisseurs." There you have it. I'm sure to be pleased! Author Haubrich, the back flap tells us, has written more than 115 original or review articles for major medical journals and served as consultant in the life sciences for THE AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE, 3RD EDITION. Basically, a word is presented, the Latin and Greek roots are explained, and that's it!! No historical citations. No slang and current jargon. The book looks like it could have been written 500 years ago! There's no bibliography. In the acknowledgments, the author credits Henry Alan Skinner's THE ORIGIN OF MEDICAL TERMS (1949, 1961 2nd ed.), the OED, DORLAND'S ILLUSTRATED MEDICAL DICTIONARY, Skeat's ETYMOLOGICAL DICTIONARY, Brewer's DICTIONARY OF PHRASE AND FABLE, BULFINCH'S MYTHOLOGY, Patridge's A SHORT ETYMOLOGICAL DICTIONARY OF MODERN ENGLISH, and the OXFORD DICTIONARY OF ENGLISH ETYMOLOGY. No wonder it seems musty. No credit is given to 1995's CURRENT MED TALK: A DICTIONARY OF MEDICAL TERMS, SLANG & JARGON by Joseph Segen. That book (which may soon be headed for a second edition) is much more current and lively, and included article citations. It was not an historical dictionary and it looked more like a med tome than DARE or the RHHDAS, but it was a grand, long-overdue start. For example, "gaspers" is not in MEDICAL MEANINGS, nor is "auto-erotic asphyxiation"--medical terms we discussed here on ADS-L. I looked up a bunch of sex terms such as "homosexual" and "transvestite"--neither is in MEDICAL MEANINGS, but "homo-" and "trans-" are. How unique! I got on Amazon.com and found out that MEDICAL TERMS: THEIR ROOTS AND ORIGINS by A. R. Tindall was due out August 1997, but I haven't seen it yet. A book called MEDICAL TERMINOLOGY FROM GREEK AND LATIN by Sandra Thompson and Lawrence Petterson was published in June 1978. The "unique" MEDICAL MEANINGS did not cite it. Also not cited in the "unique" MEDICAL MEANINGS is MEDICAL TERMINOLOGIES: CLASSICAL ORIGINS by John Scarbrorough, published in November 1992. The words in MEDICAL MEANINGS are presented alphabetically and are not grouped at all by any medical specialty. Thanks a lot. I haven't read the reviews, but CHOICE (October 1997, pp. 275-276) gave the book a favorable review and JAMA (August 27, 1997, pp. 688-689) gave it a mixed review. AMERICAN SPEECH hasn't reviewed it. Although there are many medical dictionaries and word books, a top-quality historical dictionary of medical terminology (that includes slang and jargon) is still needed. If you buy both CURRENT MED TALK and MEDICAL MEANINGS, you'll have spent about $80 and you'll have come close, but you still won't have that cool medical word book/database that you can impress on your friends who watch ER. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:19:47 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Ski/Skee Remember all those bumper stickers that read, "I'd Rather Be Skiing"? Where are they now? "Ski" seems like it's been around forever, but the citations don't start (with one 1755 exception) until 1885, and even then we have to wait until the 1920s and 1930s to see "ski" and "skiing" become generally accepted. On my trip to Canada, I was also looking for "hockey." The articles on Canada's winter sports mentioned "snow-shoes" and "snow-shoeing"--today's "skis" and "skiing." The modern word comes from Norway. A Worldcat check for 19th century "ski" citations didn't turn up much. An 1890 book by Fridtjof Nansen about an 1888-89 Greenland expedition is called PAA SKI OVER GRONLAND (the 1892 English translation is THE FIRST CROSSING OF GREENLAND). In the 12 January 1892 HARPER'S YOUNG PEOPLE, Charles Hildreth Blair wrote ""'Skees' and how to make and use them." An 1894 serial from Oslo is titled SNO OG SKI. In 1895, Sir Arthur Conan Doyle published THE LORD OF CHATEAU NOIR, which included "An Alpine pass on ski." In 1898, Sir William Martin Conway published WITH SKI & SLEDGE OVER ARCTIC GLACIERS. About 1900, the Theodore A Johnsen Company published THE WINTER SPORT OF SKEEING. In C. J. J.'s (?) 1902 book, OTIS GREY, BACHELOR, there is a chapter on "Skiing." In 1902, Ned Taylor published KING OF THE WILD WEST'S WILD GOOSE BAND, OR, STELLA'S LONG FLIGHT ON SKEES. In HUTCHINGS' CALIFORNIA MAGAZINE (San Francisco), vol. 1, no. 8, February 1857, there is an article called "Crossing the Sierras--Norwegian snow skates," describing the adventures of John A. Thompson ("Snowshoe Thompson"). The Worldcat Notes have this: "This is probably first American article about skiing", N. L. Goodrich. I don't know about that. I'm just getting started. Let me look up "All American" under "American" again... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:00:20 -0800 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET Subject: fame So here I am, home, working (instead of being in NY with the rest of you), and listening to a KFRC in San Francisco, an oldie station. The 11:00-3:00 DJ starts talking about the American Dialect Society that she had just heard of. She mentions the WOTY and asks for suggestions from her listeners. She said she would forward it on (I'll assume she did - though she never did say from where she got her information). Then the DJs from 3:00-7:00 had an interview with Allan Metcalf. A nice surprise. It wasn't quite like being there in NY and being part of the voting, but it was a kick. Rima ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 10:52:55 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: ADS Search Engine Okay, I've done it again. Somehow lost the URL for the experimental search engine for the ADS archive, and since the December messages, when I think it was last mentioned, haven't been posted to the ADS page, I can't find it. The usual Web search engines turn up nothing or too much to winnow. I PROMISE I'll never ask for this site again. I'm at home building a web page for my HEL course and would like to include a link to the search engine on it, with permission, of course. Thanks. Alan B. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:07:34 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE ADS Search Engine The current, working version is at http://www.dfjp.com/cgi-bin/warpsearch.html Please note that Internet Explorer version 4.0 for the Macintosh, released yesterday, interprets tables poorly (or perhaps with less forgiveness), and your search results will not having clickable links. I recommend using a different browser until I can fix this. If you are using a different browser and still having problems, please let me know. I am working on a pre-indexed search engine that should be faster, but it, too, is giving me problems. Stay tuned. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com -------------------------------------- Date: 1/8/98 11:05 AM To: Grant Barrett From: Alan Baragona Okay, I've done it again. Somehow lost the URL for the experimental search engine for the ADS archive, and since the December messages, when I think it was last mentioned, haven't been posted to the ADS page, I can't find it. The usual Web search engines turn up nothing or too much to winnow. I PROMISE I'll never ask for this site again. I'm at home building a web page for my HEL course and would like to include a link to the search engine on it, with permission, of course. Thanks. Alan B. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:27:25 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: RE ADS Search Engine Grant, Just tried it using Netscape, and it worked fine. Readable tables, clickable results. Thanks. Grant Barrett wrote: The current, working version is at http://www.dfjp.com/cgi-bin/warpsearch.html Please note that Internet Explorer version 4.0 for the Macintosh, released yesterday, interprets tables poorly (or perhaps with less forgiveness), and your search results will not having clickable links. I recommend using a different browser until I can f ix this. If you are using a different browser and still having problems, please let me know. I am working on a pre-indexed search engine that should be faster, but it, too, is giving me problems. Stay tuned. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com -------------------------------------- Date: 1/8/98 11:05 AM To: Grant Barrett From: Alan Baragona Okay, I've done it again. Somehow lost the URL for the experimental search engine for the ADS archive, and since the December messages, when I think it was last mentioned, haven't been posted to the ADS page, I can't find it. The usual Web search engines turn up nothing or too much to winnow. I PROMISE I'll never ask for this site again. I'm at home building a web page for my HEL course and would like to include a link to the search engine on it, with permission, of course. Thanks. Alan B. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 12:57:00 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE ADS Search Engine I have hacked at the results code for the CGI (common gateway interface) script, and the tables now display correctly in Internet Explorer 4.0 for Macintosh, with clickable links and everything. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com -------------------------------------- From: Grant Barrett Please note that Internet Explorer version 4.0 for the Macintosh, released yesterday, interprets tables poorly (or perhaps with less forgiveness), and your search results will not having clickable links. I recommend using a different browser until I can fix this. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:38:30 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: Re: "as best as I can remember" This past July there were several ads-l messages dealing with the construction "as best as I can remember"; the consensus was that this construction is illogical, but I do not remember a clear explanation as to how it originated. I believe the construction almost certainly originated as a syntactic blend--a good example of which is "time and again," blended from "time after time" and "again and again." In the case of "as best as I can remember," let's leave off "remember" for the moment and operate with the following context: "I'll do it as well as I can" and "I'll do it to the best of my ability." These two can blend to produce "I'll do it as best as I can." With "as best as" now interchangeable with "as well as" (in this initial context), its use was extended to other contexts, e.g. "as best as I can remember." I have spent 20 years on and off collecting examples of syntactic blends in English--mostly those in "parole" (i.e. not part of standard speech). I refer interested readers to two items I have written on blends: 1) Gerald Leonard Cohen: _Syntactic Blends in English _Parole_ _ (=Forum Anglicum, vol. 15). Frankfurt a.M.: Peter Lang, 1987. 178 pp. --This work consist primarily of a long of syntactic blends, with the collection aimed at providing the raw material for further analysis and at emphasizing the frequency of syntactic blending in everyday speech. 2) Gerald Leonard Cohen: "Contributions to the Study of Blending." in: _Etymology and Linguistic Principles, vol. l: Pursuit of Linguistic Insight_, 1988, pp.81-94. I edit and publish this series. gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Jan 1998 to 8 Jan 1998 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 8 Jan 1998 to 9 Jan 1998 There are 9 messages totalling 404 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Kazoo 2. change of a ten (3) 3. Full Ivana 4. RE Full Ivana 5. Fwd: Kenneth and Patricia Langen langbro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sdcoe.k12.ca.us : Rules Grammar Change 6. RMMLA/ADS call for papers 7. asbestos...? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 04:31:10 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Kazoo Before you throw this stupid little thing out (the connection of New Year's and "zoo" is purely serendipitous), here are two items. The DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS has 31 October 1884 and states "origin obscure." This is from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle, 26 September 1884, pg. 2, col. 3: A Republican editor in announcing the invention of a new musical instrument says it is called the "zazoo" because "it sounds like a zazoological garden when all the animals are howling." If this comparison is just we suppose the sessions of Mr. Clapp's assessment committee would remind the editor of somebody playing on the zazoo. This is from the Chicago Express, 4 September 1886, pg. 5, col. 6: Smith, the "Kazoo" Inventor. There is an enviable example of prosperity up in Union square. His name is Smith, and he is getting rich rapidly out of a big restaurant called the "Dairy Kitchen." It is conducted on the temperance plan, and a band of skillful musicians discourses good light music during the afternoon and evening. The place caught the tide of favor from the start. Smith made his money to establish the business in a curious way. He is an inventive genius, with a fondness for music. The latter element should have prevented his creating the masterpiece of his life, but it did not. Invention triumphed, and the result was the "kazoo," a musical monstrosity that sounds somewhat like the song of a petulant tom cat. Smith looked after its introduction to the world personally, and as he is expert in advertising resources, he suceeded almost beyond belief. He took his horror to Baltimore, and within a week the town was wild. The street boys were blowing kazoos; of course, that would be expected; but the hotel clerks, the dry goods clerks, the young men about town, and even the banjo-loving girls, took the craze, and the sound of kazoos rent the air. They organized kazoo bands, had kazoo excursions and kazoo dinner parties. It came near getting into politics, and might have if Smith had stayed another week, He made $11,000 clear within a year, and then settled down to be a caterer. Perhaps his conscience smote him, and perhaps the craze ran out. If the latter, the inventor wisely stood from under and escaped with his profits.--"Uncle Bill's" New York Letter. Kazoo web sites--none of which gives the etymology nor identifies "Smith"--include: http://www.streethockey.com/brimms/kazoo_his.html http://www.streethockey.com/brimms/kazoo_mus.html http://www.kazoobie.com/kazoofax.htm http://www.dartmouth.edu/~mbrewer/kazoo.html ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 07:53:28 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: change of a ten Is anyone familiar with "change of a X" e.g. "Excuse me. Do you have change of a ten" as opposed to "change for a X" (Do you have change for a ten) thanks, beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university 219 481 6772 simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipfw.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:08:39 -0500 From: Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Subject: Full Ivana from The New York Post Online, 01/09/98, "Neal Travis' New York" gossip column: THE "Mayflower Madam" is going into dry dock to have a refit. Sydney Biddle Barrows threw a party for pals at Wilson's bar on the Upper West Side last night to "say goodbye to my old face." The vivacious and blue-blooded Barrows says she is having what she calls "the full Ivana," via plastic surgeon Dr. Thomas Romo. She expects to emerge "totally reborn." -- Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 10:34:56 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: change of a ten At 07:53 AM 1/9/98 EST, you wrote: Is anyone familiar with "change of a X" e.g. "Excuse me. Do you have change of a ten" as opposed to "change for a X" (Do you have change for a ten) thanks, beth simon I've heard it fairly often in NYC, where "change for/of a dollar" came up commonly on buses throughout the 70s, 80s and early-to-mid 90s due to the requirement to pay the fare in exact change using coins only (one doesn't hear it so much now that people have started to pay the fare with a dip-card). I always imagined the "for"-construction emphasized the exchange aspect of making change, and the "of"-construction stated a more vague relationship between a ten and whatever you could (ex)change it for. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 09:27:34 -0800 From: "A. Maberry" maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: change of a ten I've never heard it here in the Northwest. Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu On Fri, 9 Jan 1998 simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU wrote: Is anyone familiar with "change of a X" e.g. "Excuse me. Do you have change of a ten" as opposed to "change for a X" (Do you have change for a ten) thanks, beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university 219 481 6772 simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipfw.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:07:10 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Full Ivana I first heard "the full Ivana" in the movie "First Wives' Club" in which Bette Midler, Goldie Hawn and Diane Keaton discuss plastic surgery. -------------------------------------- From: Evan Morris The vivacious and blue-blooded Barrows says she is having what she calls "the full Ivana," via plastic surgeon Dr. Thomas Romo. She expects to emerge "totally reborn." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 13:57:56 EST From: CLAndrus CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Fwd: Kenneth and Patricia Langen langbro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sdcoe.k12.ca.us : Rules Grammar Change This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_884372275_boundary Content-ID: 0_884372275[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII I thought everyone would enjoy this piece. Hope no one objects. Carol Andrus --part0_884372275_boundary Content-ID: 0_884372275[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.2 Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: maryanneraphael[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]juno.com Received: from relay31.mail.aol.com (relay31.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.31]) by air06.mail.aol.com (v37.8) with SMTP; Thu, 08 Jan 1998 01:47:51 -0500 Received: from x15.boston.juno.com (x15.boston.juno.com [205.231.100.28]) by relay31.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id BAA20908 for CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ; Thu, 8 Jan 1998 01:39:12 -0500 (EST) Received: (from maryanneraphael[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]juno.com) by x15.boston.juno.com (queuemail) id BmU21710; Thu, 08 Jan 1998 01:38:59 EST To: CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Date: Wed, 7 Jan 1998 22:40:26 -0800 Subject: Kenneth and Patricia Langen langbro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sdcoe.k12.ca.us : Rules Grammar Change Message-ID: 19980107.224053.3982.3.maryanneraphael[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]juno.com X-Mailer: Juno 1.49 X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-75 From: maryanneraphael[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]juno.com (maryanne j raphael) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: Kenneth and Patricia Langen langbro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sdcoe.k12.ca.us To: maryanne maryanneraphael[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]juno.com Subject: Rules Grammar Change Date: Wed, 07 Jan 1998 22:20:43 -0800 Message-ID: 34B4703B.6FD6[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sdcoe.k12.ca.us Hi Maryanne! Thought you would want to know about the new changes in the language laws! Rules Grammar Change WASHINGTON, DC--The U.S. Grammar Guild Monday announced that no more will traditional grammar rules English follow. Instead there will a new form of organizing sentences be. U.S. Grammar Guild according to, the new structure loosely on an obscure 800-year-old, pre-medieval Anglo-Saxon syntax is based. The syntax primarily verbs, verb clauses and adjectives at the end of sentences placing involves. Results this often, to ears American, a sentence backward appearing. "Operating under we are, one major rule," said Joyce Watters, president of the U.S. Grammar Guild. "Make English, want we, more archaic and dignified sounding to be, as if every word coming from the tongue of a centuries-old, mystical wizard, is." Brief pause Watters made then a. "Know I, know I," said she. "Confusing sounds it, but every American used to it soon will be." At a press conference recent greeted warmly the new measure by President Clinton was. "No longer will we adhere to the dull, predictable structure of our traditional grammar system. This nation will now begin speaking, writing and listening to something fresh, exciting and different," said Clinton. "Excuse me," added he pause long after a. "Meant I, the dull, predictable system our traditional grammar of adhere to no longer will we. Speaking, writing and listening to something fresh, exciting and different will this nation now begin." This week beginning, America across, all dictionaries, thesauruses and any other books or objects with any sort of writing upon it or in it revised to fit the new syntax will be. Libraries assure people wish to that the transition promptly begin will, but that patient people should be, as so much to change there is. "Feel good it will make people to know for all these changes that, librarians cold, crabby and as paranoid and overprotective of their books and periodicals as ever remain will," said Yvonne Richter, Director of the Library of Congress. The enthusiasm of government officials despite, many Americans about the new plan upset are. "Why in the world did they do this?" a New Canaan, CT, insurance salesman, said Brent Pryce. "There's absolutely no reason. It's utterly pointless and will cause total chaos throughout the country, not to mention the fact that it will cost billions of dollars to implement. And what's this U.S. Grammar Guild, anyway? I've never heard of it." When of this complaint informed, government officials that they could not the man's words understand said, because of the strange, unintelligible way of speaking he was. from theonion.com --------- End forwarded message ---------- --part0_884372275_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 14:20:44 PST8 From: Simonie Hodges sjhodges[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCGATE.HAC.COM Subject: RMMLA/ADS call for papers *****************Papers Solicited for the 1998 RMMLA Conference***************** Conjoint Meeting: American Dialect Society: Session Chair, Simonie Hodges Georgetown University 2525 Farmcrest Dr. #328 Herndon, VA 20171 USA This session showcases papers on various aspects of American dialects. Examples of previous paper topics include: dialects of Utah, the use of formal and informal pronouns "You" in Spanish speaking cities, Jamaican English in historical plays, and sweet carbonated beverage isoglosses in the U.S. We hope that you will propose a paper for the 1998 RMMLA (Rocky Mountain Modern Language Association) conference in Salt Lake City. Please address your proposal to the Chair of the appropriate session. Proposals based on a 300-word abstract are due to the session Chair no later than 15 February 1998. These proposals must be sent on paper and on 3.5" disk (preferably IBM-compatible format). If you would like the disk returned to you, please enclose a stamped, self- addressed envelope. You will be notified of the Chair's decision by 15 March 1998. Complete versions of accepted papers are due to the Chair by 15 August (paper and disk copy). Visit the RMMLA website at rmmla.wsu.edu/rmmla/callForPapers/call973.asp for more details on the other topics at the conference. ---------Guidelines for Papers and Presenters at the RMMLA Conference----------- We would appreciate your following a few RMMLA rules regarding papers presented at our conference. RMMLA is an organization for its members. You MUST be a member in good standing to present a paper. Your membership must be current by 1 April 1998 to have your name appear in the program. You may not read papers in more than one session. It is courteous to notify the Chair if you submit to more than one session. If you have two papers accepted, please decide which you will give, and notify both Chairs, as well as the RMMLA Secretariat. If we discover the duplication and are not able to reach you, we will have to choose for you. Members who propose papers are expected to attend the Convention to read at the scheduled time. No more than two members of the same institution may appear on any panel. No one's name may appear on the program more than twice (i.e. as a Chair and a presenter; appearance as a Secretary is not considered). Please notify the Chair and the RMMLA Secretariat immediately if you find you are unable to present. It is the policy of the RMMLA not to have papers read in absentia. (NB: RMMLA DUE DATES represent dates for receipt. Please allow adequate time when mailing overseas or to distant addresses.) Proposals for papers for the 1998 convention are due to the Chairs no later than 15 February 1998, because Chairs must have the program copy for their sessions in the hands of the Executive Director by 1 March 1998. This timeline is critical for setting and finalizing the program. Thank You In Advance For Your Cooperation. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Jan 1998 23:04:30 -0500 From: Bryan Gick bgick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAPIR.LING.YALE.EDU Subject: asbestos...? Date: Thu, 8 Jan 1998 20:38:30 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: Re: "as best as I can remember" This past July there were several ads-l messages dealing with the construction "as best as I can remember"; the consensus was that this construction is illogical, but I do not remember a clear explanation as to how it originated. I believe the construction almost certainly originated as a syntactic blend-- [...] following context: "I'll do it as well as I can" and "I'll do it to the best of my ability." I'm sure this has been sufficiently answered by now, but since I get the digest ADS-L, I won't know till midnight, and I hope to be far from my email then. So, with due apologies for redundancy: I agree that this is probably a syntactic blend of the sort you cite, but a simpler one. I have to assume that it came of "..as x as.." and "..as best one can..," which, though a bit victorian sounding, does make perfect sense (cf. also "as best I am able"). A few examples: "They suppressed, thence-forward, their grief, as best they could..." -- _The Captivity of Jonathan Alder (1773-1849) and His Life with the Indians, as Dictated by Him and Transcribed by His Son Henry_, Ch.1. "...all that day and during the night I gave myself Christian Science treatment, as best I could." -- Mary Baker Eddy, 1875, in _Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures_, ch.XVIII, p.603. "...trading on the basis of information, which as best I can judge, is rather faulty." -- Greenspan, at the House budget hearings, Mar.4,1997. ..there's also, of course, the possibility (likelihood?) that it comes to us on analogy with "asbestos," as hinted in my subject header, but I'll keep that one under my hat. Bryan ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Jan 1998 to 9 Jan 1998 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 9 Jan 1998 to 10 Jan 1998 There is one message totalling 27 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. asbestos...? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 08:43:48 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: asbestos...? At 11:04 PM 1/9/98 -0500, you wrote: I agree that this is probably a syntactic blend of the sort you cite, but a simpler one. I have to assume that it came of "..as x as.." and "..as best one can..," which, though a bit victorian sounding, does make perfect sense (cf. also "as best I am able"). To my ear it makes imperfect sense. I might even describe it as (gulp) wrong. When using the construction "as blank as", you are inviting comparison between two things and requiring the use of the comparative adjective or adverb. The superlative is beyond comparison. So you can do something as well as you can or you can do it THE best you can. But to say "as best I can" is as awkward as saying something like, "My car is as best as yours." Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Jan 1998 to 10 Jan 1998 *********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 10 Jan 1998 to 11 Jan 1998 There are 3 messages totalling 184 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. High Ball; Moonshiner; Cracker Jack; Chickened Out; --NOT!; Coon; et al. 2. High Ball; Moonshiner; Cracker Jack; Chickened Out; --NOT!; Coon; et al. 3. asbestos...? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 08:08:32 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: High Ball; Moonshiner; Cracker Jack; Chickened Out; --NOT!; Coon; et al. "Millennium Bug" is the word of the year. I have a lot of bugs in my apartment, but I haven't the time to find them now. Maybe in a few days. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- HIGH BALL I was asked a long time ago if I have "high ball" (drink in a tall glass) before 1898. I spotted a few in my files on illustrated baseball language. 24 May 1890, National Police Gazette, pg. 7, cols. 1-2. "One ball" is shown as a man taking a drink. "Two balls" is a mother with two kids. "Three balls" is the pawnbroker sign. 14 June 1890, National Police Gazette, pg. 6, cols. 3-4. "A missed ball" is a man taking another's drink. 21 June 1890, National Police Gazette, pg. 7, cols. 3-4. "A high ball" is a man reaching for a drink, handed to him from a high window. "A ball over the fence" is a drink handed over the fence. 12 July 1890, National Police Gazette, pg. 7, col. 2. "One ball!" is a man taking one drink. 16 August 1890, National Police Gazette, pg. 7, cols. 3-4. "A waste ball" is someone pouring out the good stuff. "A high ball" is someone drinking while standing on a ladder. "A low ball" is someone drinking while sitting in the gutter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- MOONSHINER This is not the earliest "moonshine," and I don't have the OED handy for "moonshiner," but it's still helpful (to answer Tom Dalzell's query). It's from the New Orleans Daily Picayune, 29 May 1887, pg. 4, col. 1: The "moonshiners" are not boys who shine the moon. They are men who make whisky and cut up their shines in the mountains when the moon is full. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- CRACKER JACK The RHHDAS has 1895 and Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY (Which I'm late submitting to--why isn't he online? Why did I have to introduce myself to Christine Ammer the other day at ADS and tell her I've antedated hundreds of her stuff?) has 1908!! "Cracker jack" wasn't rare in baseball; the term was used before the food(?) product. This is from the Kansas City Journal, 17 May 1888, pg. 2, col. 5: The Derby was a fair race, but the Brooklyn handicap was a "Cracker Jack." This is from the New York Sporting Times, 11 July 1891, pg. 5, col. 2: Shannon is putting up a beautiful game at second base. He is the cracker-jack of the association, all points considered. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- CHICKENED OUT The RHHDAS has 1934! This is from the Cincinnati Times-Star, 17 May 1888, pg. 2, col. 3: "Chickened out" is a new name for a foul given by a local "Fan." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- --NOT! This is from the Cincinnati Times-Star, 26 July 1888, pg. 2, col. 2: Of course "White Wings" was mourned because he was hissed. Yes he did--NOT!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- COON "Coon" for Cubans? In the same article, Cincinnati Times-Star, 26 July 1888, pg. 2, col. 2: The Cuban Giants shut out the Athletics early in the week with Blair in the box. The "coons" made two runs themselves. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- WAIT TILL NEXT YEAR In my notes I have "wait till next year" in the Kansas City Star, 15 October 1888, pg. 2, col. 6. This beats my previous posting, which beat the Brooklyn Dodger usage. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- THE NATIONAL GAME Gotta go off to Cooperstown. I'll be giving a baseball lecture next month. Paul Dickson has the New York Herald, 8 July 1865, for "the national game." That's very early, although someone traced "the national pastime" to 1857! This is from Harper's Weekly, 15 October 1859, pg. 660(? Copy is cut off), col. 3: Our people, or "that pure and reformed part of them" (as one of the old Episcopal collects says) which advocates athletic excercises, excuse the general neglect of cricket in this country by saying that base-ball is our national game. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 10:50:29 -0500 From: Fred Shapiro fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: High Ball; Moonshiner; Cracker Jack; Chickened Out; --NOT!; Coon; et al. On Sun, 11 Jan 1998, Bapopik wrote: Paul Dickson has the New York Herald, 8 July 1865, for "the national game." That's very early, although someone traced "the national pastime" to 1857! This is from Harper's Weekly, 15 October 1859, pg. 660(? Copy is cut off), col. 3: Note that the DA has an 1856 citation for _national game_. The OED traces it, in reference to sports other than baseball, to 1828. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1998 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 19:50:59 -0500 From: Bryan Gick bgick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAPIR.LING.YALE.EDU Subject: asbestos...? I agree that this is probably a syntactic blend of the sort you cite, but a simpler one. I have to assume that it came of "..as x as.." and "..as best one can..," which, though a bit victorian sounding, does make perfect sense (cf. also "as best I am able"). To my ear it makes imperfect sense. I might even describe it as (gulp) wrong. When using the construction "as blank as", you are inviting comparison between two things and requiring the use of the comparative adjective or adverb. The superlative is beyond comparison. So you can do something as well as you can or you can do it THE best you can. But to say "as best I can" is as awkward as saying something like, "My car is as best as yours." Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ Yes, the "as...as" construction is used for comparison between two things -- but this is certainly not the only use of the word "as". For many of the other applications of the word, you can substitute "in the way that," or the like. This is the meaning I was thinking of that made sense to me (e.g., "I'll do it as best I can/am able [to do it]" == "I'll do it in the way that I am best able [to do it]"). This has been pretty standard usage for at least a couple centuries, as opposed to the, I think (though please correct me), relatively new "...as best as..." "blend." Bryan ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Jan 1998 to 11 Jan 1998 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 11 Jan 1998 to 12 Jan 1998 There are 10 messages totalling 642 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. change of a ten (2) 2. Just barely on topic 3. woty makes washington post 4. ...NOT! (2) 5. skell? (3) 6. WOTY ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:42:25 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: change of a ten I *thought* that expression sounded familiar, though not quite what I think would roll right off my tongue today, and Greg Downing pinpointed the origin of it for me: I've heard it fairly often in NYC, where "change for/of a dollar" came up commonly on buses throughout the 70s, 80s and early-to-mid 90s due to the requirement to pay the fare in exact change using coins only (one doesn't hear it so much now that people have started to pay the fare with a dip-card). I always imagined the "for"-construction emphasized the exchange aspect of making change, and the "of"-construction stated a more vague relationship between a ten and whatever you could (ex)change it for. "I *vas* dere, Sharley", and I remember the situation; and I'll hesitantly suggest an alternative explanation for the difference between "of" and "for" here. Normally you ask "Do you have change for an X(-coin/bill)?" when you are paying someone an amount, y, that is considerably less than (the value of an) X. The intended recipient need not have $X in smaller units to be able to answer "yes" and give you your change, only $(X - y). But on the bus you are not asking the driver, who cannot give you change, but other passengers; and you are asking if they can give you exactly $X in appropriate smaller units so that you can give the driver y (leaving you with X - y).* And that may be the difference that the change in preposition was meant to capture: "Can you give me X in change, in EXchange for an X?", rather than "Can you give me the difference between X and the value of my purchase, in exchange for an X and my purchase?" * Nit-pickers' note: You might well be asking the passengers for a different X than you would be asking the driver for if he could make change: e.g., if fare = $1.20 and you have only bills and quarters. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:09:45 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Just barely on topic Hal Holbrook's commencement speech at Hartford has been discussed on the Mark Twain Forum. Please pardon this cross posting, but I thought there might be people here who would find it interesting. It can be found at: http://www.hartford.edu/comencearchive/Speech.Html Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:00:38 -0600 From: Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: woty makes washington post Today's Washington Post carries the woty story: Coming To Terms With 1997 Linguists Pick the Words Minted for the Year=20 By Gayle Worland Special to The Washington Post Monday, January 12, 1998; Page B01=20 NEW YORK=97It wasn't the Oscars, or the Tonys. There wasn't a sequin in sight. Yet people from across= the country were gathered here Friday to vote on -- and= celebrate -- one of America's great cultural achievements of 1997: A word. Not just any word, but the single expression that= sums up the year just past or epitomizes a trend or is expected= to become part of the American vernacular. Or a term that is= just so irresistibly clever that it deserves its place in= history. Would "to office" win as this year's most useful= verb in the American Dialect Society's "Word of the Year"= election? Would "exit bag" (a bag placed over one's head to= commit suicide) clinch the honors for "most outrageous"= new term? As the supporters of "millennium-bug" squared off= against the contingent pushing "the bomb" (defined as "the= greatest"), the Grand Hyatt meeting room was not exactly atwitter= with suspense. But it was filled with lively debate and= a little home-grown hype, not to mention a fair amount of= corduroy and tweed. The final 1997 word of the year: "millennium-bug"= (meaning the programming quirk that makes some computers unable= to register the year 2000). The 1996 linguistic laurel went to the term "soccer= mom" -- the hard-working, upscale mother of the 1990s courted= by minivan manufacturers and presidential candidates, who= recognized her as a demographic force that should not be ignored.= "Dot" (used instead of "period" when pronouncing e-mail and Web addresses, as in "dot-com") was declared the "most= useful" new word of 1996, and "ebonics" (a term for African American vernacular English) was named "most= controversial." Since 1990, several dozen word wonks have sneaked= out of their seminars on morphology and accentology at the= annual Linguistic Society of America convention to have a= good chuckle over the terms that Americans just can't= stop inventing -- on the streets, in the media, at the water= cooler -- almost anywhere you can think of. "Playing with language is a natural human= characteristic," says Allan A. Metcalf, executive secretary of the= American Dialect Society and an English professor at MacMurray= College in Illinois. By its very nature, any language -- in= any culture -- cannot remain static. "People don't inherit= language," Metcalf says. "They learn it by interpreting and= misinterpreting what they hear." Americans love the elasticity of their language,= which converts nouns into verbs with ease ("an impact" becomes "to= impact") and can turn "bad" into something good. Simple= words have come to symbolize whole currents in American= culture, as Metcalf and co-author David K. Barnhart pointed out= in their 1997 book, "America in So Many Words." There's "thanksgiving," for example, which dates back to= 1621; but also "punk" (1618); "apple pie" (1629); "greenback"= (1862); "bloomers" (1851); "bluejeans" (1855); "skyscraper"= (1883); "credit card" (1888!); "jazz" (1913); "T-shirt"= (1919); "multicultural" (1941); and "Ms." (1952). These words are spun by writers, talkers, kids on= the playground. But it's the linguists and= dictionary-makers who comb them out of magazines and newspapers, pour= them into databases, and jump out of their chairs when Dan= Rather brings a newly coined expression like "Y2K" (Year= 2000) into "standard usage" by employing it on the "CBS= Evening News." Today, some of the newest words ricochet through= the Internet with high-baud speed. "You're faced with all these= new experiences and you don't know what to call= things," explains Gareth Branwyn of Arlington, the author of "Jargon= Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati," who was asked= to nominate new words he found on the World Wide Web for this= year's word-of-the-year competition. Cyberlingo, says= Branwyn, "errs on the side of the frivolous, the fast and= the fun." A good new word "is like a good joke," he says. "You= remember it and tell it to someone else, and they tell it to= someone else. With the Internet, there's a tremendous acceleration of the= ability of these terms to propagate." Take "alpha-geek," a 1996 word of the year= runner-up that first appeared in Branwyn's Jargon Watch column in= Wired magazine. Every office has one: The alpha-geek is= the leader of the PC pack who can always figure out the problem= with your &^%*[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] computer. The vocabulary that's taken root online also tells= us something about that subculture, Branwyn ways. To contrast it= with cyberspace, the physical world is described as IRL= (in real life)." To escape the glow of the monitor and see a= friend in the flesh, one arranges "face time," or meets "F2F." Like meteorologists who don't want to be wrong= about the next big storm, "jargonnauts" such as Branwyn dread= missing the coinage of a new expression such as "being= Dilberted" (abused by the boss) or "prairie-dogging" (the= practice of popping one's head above one's office cubicle). So will "millennium-bug" go down in history? Not= necessarily, says Metcalf. "New words are made up all the time= -- and 99.999 percent of them don't catch on. I think it= takes about 40 years to know if a word is really going to= establish in the dictionary." "We can't keep track of them all," adds Barnhart,= author of "The Barnhart Dictionary Companion." "There are too= many damn people out there using the language." Winning Words=20 Other 1997 selections: Most Useful: -razzi (the suffix): Aggressive= pursuers, as in stalkerazzi; Duh: Expression of stupidity. Most Unnecessary: Heaven-o: Replacement for= "Hello," used in Kingsville, Tex., to avoid the presumed= invocation of "Hell." Most Likely to Succeed: DVD: Abbreviation for= digital versatile disc, the optical disc technology= expected to replace CDs. Most Outrageous: Florida Flambe: Fire caused by= Florida's aging electric chair, "Old Sparky." Brand Spanking New: El Nonsense: Illogical= association of some event with El Nino. Most Euphemistic: Exit bag: Bag placed over one's= head to commit suicide.=20 =A9 Copyright 1998 The Washington Post Company= =20 Dennis Baron, Acting Head italic phone: /italic 217-333-2390 Department of English italic fax: /italic 217-333-4321 University of Illinois italic email: /italic debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu 608 S. Wright Street http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron Urbana, IL 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:46:09 +0000 From: David Bergdahl bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: change of a ten I've been wondering what the confusion was--the expression "change for a dollar [bill]" seems so utterly transparent to me--but this post makes me see that other places must allow bus drivers to make change rather than take tokens [the more common route], transfers or exact change. "I *vas* dere, Sharley", and I remember the situation; and I'll hesitantly suggest an alternative explanation for the difference between "of" and "for" here. Normally you ask "Do you have change for an X(-coin/bill)?" when you are paying someone an amount, y, that is considerably less than (the value of an) X. The intended recipient need not have $X in smaller units to be able to answer "yes" and give you your change, only $(X - y). But on the bus you are not asking the driver, who cannot give you change, but other passengers; and you are asking if they can give you exactly $X in appropriate smaller units so that you can give the driver y (leaving you with X - y).* And that may be the difference that the change in preposition was meant to capture: "Can you give me X in change, in EXchange for an X?", rather than "Can you give me the difference between X and the value of my purchase, in exchange for an X and my purchase?" _____________________________________________________________________ david.bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ohiou.edu Ohio University / Athens http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl Ellis Hall 114c tel: (740) 593-2783 Office hours: fax: (740) 593-2818 MTThF 10:10-11 a.m. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:06:00 -0500 From: Larry Horn laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: ...NOT! In connection with Barry's early ...NOT!-- This is from the Cincinnati Times-Star, 26 July 1888, pg. 2, col. 2: Of course "White Wings" was mourned because he was hissed. Yes he did--NOT!!! --this example, antedating our earlier ...NOT/NITs (see esp. Sheidlower & Lighter's excellent post-mortem in the Summer 1993 Am. Speech), is consistent with my guess that the earlier examples of the retroactive cancellation construction are spin-offs of this sort of syntactic blend, where the ironic dissenter is simultaneously appearing to concede the point ("Yes, it is") while actually refuting it ("No, it is NOT!"). The "not" may be whispered (as an ironic sotto voce to the audience, as Cary Grant does it in "Mr. Blandings Builds His Dream House") or defiantly shouted to the heavens (as evidently in the case above). The emergence of those retro-NOTs that follow (and cancel) full sentences, rather than sentence-final auxiliaries ("Yes, I have...NOT!"), is a partly distinct phenomenon that seems to peak in cicada-like cycles, most memorably the one that capped in time for the 1992 WOTY vote. I'm not entirely sure what the ellipsis in the above example (Yes, he did(n't)--what? be mourned?), but that's a query for the editor of the no doubt defunct Cincinnati Times-Star, not for Barry. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:44:02 -0500 From: Larry Horn laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: skell? In response to a query from someone at a local newspaper here who's working on a story about words entering the public lexicon from TV shows, I'm wondering about the above, used on NYPD Blue and no doubt other hard-edge cop shows of that ilk (Brooklyn South?) as a police-detective-jargon term of art designating a low-life perp type of individual. (I haven't figured out the exact meaning from the contexts in which it's used, but skells seem never to be sympathetic sorts or unjustly accused suspects.) It's not in the sources I've checked, and the relevant volume of DARE isn't out yet, but I wonder whether it's at all related to the much earlier _skellum_ 'scounder, rascal' cited in the OED. Is it a regionalism? anyone know? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:34:44 EST From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: skell? You'll find it in the brand-new _Oxford Dictionary of New Words_ (1997), which misleadingly takes the same title as its 1991 predecessor (without calling itself a new edition), but seems to be almost entirely new. It defines the word: In New York, a homeless person or derelict, especially one who sleeps in the subway system. Perhaps formed as a shortening of _skeleton_. and cites the NY Times Magazine 31 January 1982, p 21: "Other New Yorkers live there . . . eating yesterday's bagels and sleeping on benches. The police in New York call such people 'skells.'" as well as Newsday from 1988. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:50:12 -0500 From: Brenda Lester brenles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CODY.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: WOTY WOTY made front page in my hometown paper. WORD! "Millennium bug' is picked as top phrase of 1997 We now pause from the real news of the day to bring this word from the wise. The word of the year for 1997 is ... "Millennium bug." That's right. The word, actually a phrase, describing the feared inability of computers to properly recognize the year 2000, came out on top Friday in the eight annual "Word of the Year" balloting in New York City. Members of the American Dialect Society picked the winner from a list of four finalists, after nominations from professors and other word experts as the words most representative of 1997. "I think 'millennium bug' was a good choice," society member Wayne Glowka, an English professor at Georgia College & State University in Milledgeville, said in a telephone interview from New York just after the voting. "It's something that kept coming up over and over again during the year," he said. "It's been the subject of big stories in Time and Newsweek." Other finalists for 1997 Word of the Year were "jitterati," which means the community of people with coffee fetishes; the suffix "-(r) azzi" attached to words meaning aggressive pursuer (as in paparazzi); and The Bomb, meaning the greatest. The American Dialect Society, with a membership of about 500, was founded by legendary newspaper editor H.L. Mencken more than a century ago to study the evolution of the English language in North America. Glowka is chairman of the group's "new words" committee and a columnist for the quarterly journal, American Speech. In 1990, the group began choosing a Word of the Year as a tongue-in-cheek way to draw attention to changes in the English language. "It helps promote the idea that change in language is normal, and certainly nothing to be upset about," Glowka said. "This is a fun way to document changes in the language that take place before our very eyes." The balloting began getting national media attention last year: Glowka said a Washington Post reporter attended Friday's vote. Smith, Sharon. "Word! 'Millennium Bug' is picked as top phrase of 1997." _The Macon Telegraph_. 10 Jan 1997, 1A+. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:15:23 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: skell? You'll find it in the brand-new _Oxford Dictionary of New Words_ (1997), which misleadingly takes the same title as its 1991 predecessor (without calling itself a new edition), but seems to be almost entirely new. It defines the word: In New York, a homeless person or derelict, especially one who sleeps in the subway system. Perhaps formed as a shortening of _skeleton_. Allan got to this before I could, but the ODNW 97's treatment (which Allan quotes, although I should point out that that entry is an almost verbatim copy of the one that appeared in the Oxford English Dictionary Additions Series Volume I in 1993) is generally pretty accurate. We have examples to the early 1970s, but the _skeleton_ etymology is probably correct, and the ODNW's claim of only New York City for the word's regional distribution is also accurate according to our data. Jesse Sheidlower Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:28:23 +0000 From: Victoria Neufeldt vneufeldt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM Subject: Re: ...NOT! This makes me think of my niece, whose first way of forming negatives was to tack "no" onto the end of a positive statement. For instance, on the occasion of her first haircut, she was waiting her turn, watching the hairdresser cut her older sister's hair, and expressed her distrust of the whole procedure: "I like that man, no!" I have no idea of how common this phenomenon is in English language acquisition. Victoria Neufeldt ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Jan 1998 to 12 Jan 1998 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 12 Jan 1998 to 13 Jan 1998 There are 15 messages totalling 545 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. A question of the use of "or". (2) 2. outcasted (2) 3. skell (5) 4. Boustrophedon 5. skell again 6. "level the playing field" (3) 7. unsubscribe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:09:44 +0900 From: Hideho Ida hida[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.DOSHISHA.AC.JP Subject: A question of the use of "or". I have a question about the use of "or" in the following sentence. I left the hotel; or I would have missed the train. Of course, in this sentence "otherwise" is correct. But what do you think of "or" in this sentence? Here "or" means "and if I had not". I wonder if I should change the semi-colon before "or" into a comma in this sentence. In Quirk et al.'s _A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language_ (1985), I found the following example: They (must have) liked this apartment, or they wouldn't have stayed so long. I would like to have your opinion about this matter. Thanks in advance. Hideho Ida hida[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.doshisha.ac.jp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 09:56:50 +0000 From: David Bergdahl bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: outcasted In a newsgroup for my American English class for MA-candidates, one student wrote "If you speak like a white person, you are outcasted. If you succeed academically, you are outcasted." Has anyone met this reverbalizing of a deverbalized adjective before [to coin a term]? is the process common? -- _____________________________________________________________________ david.bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ohiou.edu Ohio University / Athens http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl Ellis Hall 114c tel: (740) 593-2783 Office hours: fax: (740) 593-2818 MTThF 10:10-11 a.m. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:44:32 -0500 From: Larry Horn laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: A question of the use of "or". I have a question about the use of "or" in the following sentence. I left the hotel; or I would have missed the train. Of course, in this sentence "otherwise" is correct. But what do you think of "or" in this sentence? Here "or" means "and if I had not". I wonder if I should change the semi-colon before "or" into a comma in this sentence. In Quirk et al.'s _A Comprehensive Grammar of the English Language_ (1985), I found the following example: They (must have) liked this apartment, or they wouldn't have stayed so long. I would like to have your opinion about this matter. Thanks in advance. Hideho Ida hida[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.doshisha.ac.jp You're right in taking this to be an "or" with essentially the meaning of "and if not". More fully, "p or q" here is equivalent to something like "p (because) if not-p, q" where q is either something to be avoided or something incompatible with the assumed context. The use of "or" here plays off the logical equivalence [p v q] -- [~p -- q] Interestingly, though, I find "either...or" impossible in this context, while "else" is pretty good: (*Either) I left the hotel, or (else) I would have missed the train. As for punctuation, my intuition says comma, not semicolon. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 11:57:12 -0500 From: Larry Horn laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: skell Oops. I forgot to write the message before sending it. I wanted to express my thanks, and those of the New Haven Register journalist who contacted me, for the information contributed by David, Allan, and Jesse on "skell". Both the writer and I had (independently) inferred from the use of the term by police on "NYPD Blue" that it referred to small-time hoods or perps, and that it might be related to the archaic "skellum" ('scoundrel, rascal') listed in the OED, but it's clear that the resemblance here is coincidental. The derivation from "skeleton" is much more plausible, given the original use in the late '70s through early '90s as a policeperson's term of art to refer to vagrants who sleep in the NYC subways, whether or not of criminal inclination. One question that arises now is whether we might anticipate an extended use to other cities that don't have subways open all night: will a "skell" be any vagrant? Any small-time hood (following the apparent use on NYPD Blue)? Has anyone encountered a non-NYC use of the word? Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:12:10 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: skell Larry Horn wrote: subways, whether or not of criminal inclination. One question that arises now is whether we might anticipate an extended use to other cities that don't have subways open all night: will a "skell" be any vagrant? Any small-time hood (following the apparent use on NYPD Blue)? Has anyone encountered a non-NYC use of the word? I don't have any _reliable_ non-NYC attestations, but do have a number of cites in broader senses along the lines of 'lowlife; dirtbag' as well as 'low-level criminal' (when these can be distinguished). Despite its often being defined as 'vagrant sleeping in subways', I think this stems more from the specificity of the 1982 N.Y. Times citation that has been frequently requoted, as David points out, than from actual usage. That is, I think the sense 'vagrant sleeping in subway' is factitious. I also think that the frequent use of the word on NYPD Blue and Brooklyn South will probably help it spread to non-NYC communities. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 12:37:36 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: Boustrophedon Here's an item from an email newsletter called "TidBits" that covers things Macintosh. This particular issue was devoted to the MacWorld conference in San Francisco: "Thanks to Mark Kriegsman for telling us that the word for our habit of starting at one end of a hall and systematically working our way up and down aisles so we don't miss much is 'boustrophedon.' Extra thanks to TidBITS Contributing Editor Matt Neuburg, (who was Adam's [Engst, I believe, editor of newsletter -GAB] Classics professor in a previous life) for explaining that the word comes from the Greek words 'bou,' meaning 'ox,' and 'strophe,' meaning 'to turn.' Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:35:09 +0000 From: Jim Rader jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM Subject: Re: skell The locus classicus for skell seems to be a Paul Theroux article that appeared in the New York Times magazine (Jan. 31, 1982). The Theroux article is cited by the Barnhart Dictionary Companion and the Third Barnhart Dictionary of New English, as well as by the OED Additions Series volume referred to by Jesse Sheidlower. It seems that what Theroux picked up, though, was just one application of the word. Nexis gave some interesting results, limited, not unexpectedly, by the unavailabililty of full text before ca. 1980. I'll give below some excerpts (in chronological order) from what I found without much comment. I searched under the spellings skell and skel , both of which have been used. New York Times, May 3, 1981 - W. Safire "On Language" [article on bartender's jargon]: Although "stiff" is still used to mean a state of drunkenness (from the resemblance to a corpse rigid with rigor mortis), the word is more frequently used to describe one who refused to tip. Such deadbeats are also shafties, diviners, short strokes, skels (from "skeleton") and A.O.H. (a corruption of "out of here"). New York Times, Jan. 2, 1983 - W. Safire's "On Language": Street person sounds bookish; another, more colorful term was used in a caption in this magazine last year, under a picture of a man sleeping in a subway: "While some New Yorkers seldom use the subway, others live there. The police call such people 'skells' and are seldom harsh with them." [Safire is almost certainly referring to the Theroux piece, but I haven't actually checked the microfilm version of the article to confirm that there is such a picture.] Skell is a beaut of a bit of slang. It is a shortening of skellum, meaning rascal or thief, and akin to skelder, "to beg on the streets," first used in print by Ben Jonson in 1599, just after the playwright got out of jail after killing a man in a duel; it is possible he picked up the word from a cellmate's argot. "It shows the sheer persistence of words," says Stuart Berg Flexner, editor in chief of Random House dictionaries, when shown this citation. "Here an Elizabethan argot word with some old literary use pops again in a shortened form in the mid-20th century (about 1935 in the short form skell), showing that skellum had some underground oral use for centuries. It's a long way from the Elizabethan underground to the New York Times, but skellum/skell finally made it!" [I have no idea what ca. 1935 usage Flexner was referring to, though knowing personally something about Flexner's working methods, my guess is that this is totally groundless--I hope someone can prove the contrary.] Newsday, Feb. 22, 1988 (byline--Denis Hamill) When I see malevolent, nothing-to-lose guys like this, all screaming at each other, the delirious crazy people whom cops call "skells," the down-and-outs, the grungy and hopeless, garbage-heads who use any foreign substance known to man to alter reality. Newsday, March 4, 1988 [unnamed NYC police officer is being quoted]: "...The guys we talk to and grill are the guys we know are dirty. We don't bust hump on John Q. Citizen. Skanks and skells, that's who did this. No one could be the top of any organization that ordered a hit on a uniformed cop. You don't become the head of anything by doing something as dumb as this. So it has to be trash, crashed-out lunatics...." Newsday, Sept. 26, 1988 "These projects are like our homes," [NYC narcotics officer Mike] Codella said. "We know people here. Everybody. We care about them. The great majority are good people. It's the skells [junkies, pimps and thieves] [preceding gloss is in the original--JLR] who ruin their lives and it's our job to put them into the joint." Newsday, June 12, 1989 [from a digest of a book by Stephen MacDonald, an NYC police officer]: I always expected that that'd be where I got shot, even killed, by one of the skells, the lowlife riding those cars. Newsday, Aug. 14, 1989 [quote from unnamed NYC homicide detective]: "A couple hours later, all thse guys, the most dangerous skels in Queens, are sitting in a back booth in Carmichael's, a diner out on New York boulevard, when Ice walks in, the hooker right behind him...." New York Times, May 12, 1990 [quote from 59-year-old NYC police officer John Leitgeb]: "But you got to go with the flow and change," he said. "I see the skels lying on the street. You can't do what you used to do: whack them on the behind with a night stick." Newsday, July 4, 1990 [op-ed piece]: ...the now too recent past...when cops would refer to the dead black man as a "skell," meaning an insignificant person.... Newsday, June 5, 1991 One of the more blatant forms of racism, the report [of NY State Judicial Commission on Minorities] found, is the use by judges, attorneys and courtroom personnel of racial jokes or epithets to describe nonwhites. Names like "mope," "tar baby," "slime," "deadbeat," "rabbit" and "skell" (which translated means bum or trash) are among the favorites. Newsday, May 5, 1992 The idea, of course, is to increase the number of minority cops, the thinking being that no one knows the enemy within better than a brother who is wise to the ways of the skels. New York Times, April 24, 1994: "If you want to see the skels, ride the E," said one train conductor. I asked what skels are. "The skels are like the really disgusting homeless," he answered. Newsday, Sept. 7, 1994: But a plainclothes cop doing his or her job successfully tries to blend in with the crowd, especially with the "mutts," "dirtbags," and "skells" (cop slang for riffraff up to no good). Hartford Courant, Nov. 30, 1994 [cite not very revelatory, but evidence for skell in use by Manchester CT police officers] Daily News (NY), Mar. 16, 1995: Gary, meanwhile, complained about his brother to associates. One lawyer who had known Gary for years recalled him calling Kenneth "a skell who was always getting into trouble. He was going to wash his hands of him." Newsday, Nov. 8, 1995 In the old days, when New York cops referred to "the animals," they meant the skells and low-life who populated the local precinct. Times-Union (Albany NY), Aug. 23, 1996 - review by Steven Whitty (Knight-Ridder) All of this seemed mildly amusing to me, although I have to admit I'm predisposed to look kindly on a movie about Irish families, particularly a movie that uses a good old-fashioned New York slur like skell. (Trust me--if someone calls you that, hit them.) Daily News (NY), Oct. 8, 1996 Livoti wanted to walk into the courthouse as a police officer instead of a common criminal defendant, one of the "skells" so despised by cops. Union-Leader (Manchester NH), Nov. 15, 1996 [quoting Augie Babritsky, "the sage of West Manchester"]: "Got his idiot brother-in-law on one of them city commissions. The skell carries around a badge, flashing it in bars...." Daily News (NY), May 9, 1997 That's what brought Boyce to Sing Sing, March 16, 1995, for a sitdown with Sidney Quick, serving six years to life for armed robberies committed while on work release. Understand that Quick a skell among skells [sic punctuation] looking for menthol cigarets, better phone privileges and ultimately freedom tells a variety of different stories, from preposterous to pragmatic.... Village Voice, Sept. 30, 1997 (byline--William Bastone) Back when he was jailing--and not hailing--felons, Giuliani surely would have been repulsed by a septuagenarian skell like Fugazy. But it appears that the aging hustler's political-media-business connections and his fundraising skills have won Giuliani's heart, despite the lobbyist's tawdry resume. [Voice writers have been using this word with increasing frequency the past couple of years; note that Nexis has had Village Voice text only since Jan., 1994; Merriam writers have been marking it since 1991--as a matter of fact, I have a yellowing pile under my desk from around then waiting to be marked.] I've chosen the above because they're either revelatory or early or both, and I've left out media references to skell based on the David Milch/Steve Bochko TV shows NYPD Blue or Brooklyn South . But note that Nexis has only carried full text of Newsday since Jan., 1988 and NY Daily News since March, 1995. Undoubtedly more and earlier evidence would turn up if we had more to search through electronically (or if there were dozens of Barry Popik's out there expanding the lexicographical horizon). Whether the use is extending beyond New York City, with or without influence of the TV shows, remains to be seen; not the above cites from CT and NH. If the unifying sense of the word is "person perceived by the speaker to be of low social status," whether vagrant or petty criminal or non-tipper, the "skeleton" etymology does not look very satisfactory, though I conjectured this in the Random House College Dictionary back in 1990 for lack of any other ideas. Flexner's skellum etymology seems very unlikely in view of the time gap, with or without the 1935 cite; however, skelm is used in South African English, ultimately an independent borrowing from Dutch schelm through Afrikaans--independent, that is, from Early Mod. English skellum --though it means "rascal." Jim Rader ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 14:57:16 +0000 From: Jim Rader jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM Subject: Re: skell again An addendum to my just sent post on skell : I neglected to add a 1991 cite for skel from the Village Voice that I must have marked myself: Village Voice, Oct. 8, 1991, p. 39 [quote from Pable Guzman, WNYW TV newsman] "A lot of us tend to adopt police jargon; they use the term 'skel,' probably from skeleton. It used to mean just low-lifes but now it's used for blacks and Puerto Ricans across the board. I hear it on our scanner and it infuriates me." Aside from some obvious typos in my first post, I somehow came out with "Merriam writers" instead of "Merriam editors"; God forbid that any of us harmless drudges should consider him- or herself a writer on the exalted level of, say, a journalist. Jim Rader ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 17:34:42 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: outcasted I've also heard "forecasted" occasionally, as from our local FM classical music deejay: "More rain is forecasted for today." I would assume this is a common regularization of the past and past participle. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 19:15:09 -0600 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: skell I remember hearing NYC cops use the word, some time between 1965 and 1969; reference to a "skell precinct." Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:40:57 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: skell NYPD Blue's on in an hour or so. What you notice is that anyone any of the four males brings in is a "skel" unless wearing a suit. neither the kim delany character nor the other, newer female detective bring in skels, although they do bring in "perps". one of the fort wayne cops (here) used "skel". when i asked him about it, he laughed and said he'd gotten it from tv. beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipfw.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 20:01:51 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: "level the playing field" I recently received a query about the expression "to level the playing field." In what way is a playing field leveled? What is the origin of this unusual expression? Is it older than the past decade or so? Can any ADS members help out on this? --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 21:16:38 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: "level the playing field" At 08:01 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you (Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU ) wrote: I recently received a query about the expression "to level the playing field." In what way is a playing field leveled? What is the origin of this unusual expression? Is it older than the past decade or so? Hmmm, "to level" also means to survey some piece of ground in order to make sure it is flat or level. Perhaps (???) if one found early uses of this phrase they might mean "to ensure the field is level so that play is fair" rather than "to make the field level." However, the phrase is commonly used in current political discourse with the idea of actively making something level. -- After all, where would a politician be if s/he said "Elect me, I want to measure something" rather than "Elect me, I'm going to act to make things fair." For "to level" = "to survey for flatness," see OED2 level v. meaning 5, and also levelling vbl. n. meanings 2 and 3. But there is no "level... playing(-)field" anywhere in OED2. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:26:58 -0500 From: Fred Shapiro fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: "level the playing field" On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Gerald Cohen wrote: I recently received a query about the expression "to level the playing field." In what way is a playing field leveled? What is the origin of this unusual expression? Is it older than the past decade or so? Can any ADS members help out on this? I'm not currently an ADS member, but I can tell you that the earliest citation yielded by Nexis is from American Banker, 8 Jan. 1979: "Mr. Brawner said the Oregon BA welcomed 'any and all competition, on a level playing field,' a metaphor the association has used frequently in arguments for 'competitive equality.'" All the earliest occurrences on Nexis are from similar banking contexts. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1998 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jan 1998 22:06:10 -0600 From: Gwano gwanotellurian[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AMERITECH.NET Subject: unsubscribe This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BD206F.7500FE60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable unsubscibe ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BD206F.7500FE60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable !DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD W3 HTML//EN" HTML HEAD META content=3Dtext/html;charset=3Diso-8859-1 = http-equiv=3DContent-Type META content=3D'"MSHTML 4.72.2106.6"' name=3DGENERATOR /HEAD BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff DIV FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2 unsubscibe /FONT /DIV DIV FONT color=3D#000000 size=3D2 /FONT   /DIV /BODY /HTML ------=_NextPart_000_000C_01BD206F.7500FE60-- ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Jan 1998 to 13 Jan 1998 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 13 Jan 1998 to 14 Jan 1998 There are 16 messages totalling 796 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. A question of the use of "or". 2. Fan 3. Charley Horse 4. Sporting Life gaps 5. Windy City 6. Bunt; Circus catch; Ladies' day 7. "level the playing field" (2) 8. Very TAN--Giving Finger 9. RE Very TAN--Giving Finger (2) 10. skell yet again (3) 11. Ebert and anachronism 12. H-AFRO-AM on African-American studies (fwd) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 00:19:01 EST From: Davidhwaet Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: A question of the use of "or". If you change the semi-colon to a comma, the sentence sounds perfectly natural to me, although it probably needs a context for clarity. The other example seems clearer since the context is provided. David R. Carlson 34 Spaulding St. Amherst MA 01002 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 03:31:27 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Fan "Fan" was discussed in AMERICAN SPEECH (Fall 1996, pages 328-331) and also in COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY (October 1996, pages 2-12). On page 3 of COE, a citation includes: "_Sporting Life_, Dec. 7, 1887, p.3/6 (right part of column is missing)." Guess what? In the National Baseball Library's microfilm copy, it's not torn at all! It's perfect! It reads as follows: W. G. Betty was numbered among the Roastologists and he had a grievance. He delived (sic) a lecture to the point, "Give Us a Show," and dealt with THE NICKNAMES OF BALL ENTHUSIASTS. Said he:--"Crank, fiend, fanatic. Now isn't that a nice array of appellations for the many friends of the National pastime? Let us see what Webster says about this. "First--'Crank' can not be found in the dictionary, and must therefore be something awful, as it is not even given and marked _vulgar_. My edition of the book does not contain the word as applied to those who drop their fifty cent pieces in the turnstile at Bank and Western avenues. "Second--'Fanatic,' extravagant in opinions; excessively enthusiastic. Now do you think the two to ten thousand people who attended the games in this city the past season have been extravagant in their opinions and excessively enthusiastic? The latter definition may be true to a certain extent, but the cause thereof was removed, thanks to the efforts of the press of our city. "Third--'Fiend,' an implacable or malicious foe, a devil; an infernal being. This caps the climax. To think that we are classed with such as are described above. "Now let us see what is said of those who are very much attached to lawn tennis, canoeing, bicycle riding and other out-door sports. "'Devotee'--One who is wholly devoted, _admirer_; one who esteems or loves greatly. "'Patron'--An advocate; a supporter. "And so I might go on and show the contrast between the lover of the National game and others. Why should this difference be made? Just because my taste for out-door sport has an inclination to base ball should I have such names applied to me any more than the lawn tennis player, the canoeist or the bicyclist?" Tom Sullivan is to blame for the outburst for he "did it" with his description of "fans" (see this 23 Nov. 1887 quote on pg. 328 in AS--ed.)--the wild Western enthusiasts who meet you before the game and slap you on the back with the inquiry: "Well, old man, how is she going to-day?" That is the sort of a fellow they call a "fan" out beyond the Mississippi river. Still I think Brother Betty has moralized to good effect, don't you? (...) REN MULFORD, JR. I looked though the SPORTING LIFE for April, May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December 1886 and parts of January 1887. I didn't find "fan," but found lots of "cranks" (or "kranks"). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 03:32:06 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Charley Horse "Charley horse" is an old war-horse for folk etymology. RHHDAS cites David Shulman's 1949 AMERICAN SPEECH article on "Charley horse" for the first citation (1888). Paul Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY quotes Gerald Cohen's 19 June 1887 citation from the NEW YORK WORLD as the earliest "Charley horse." No more. I went to Cooperstown. I vas dere, Sholley! Before my trip, I had at least this: 11 May 1887, SPORTING LIFE, pg. 4, col. 5. "Charlie horse" seems to be the complaint that has laid up a good many ball players this spring. 16 June 1887, NEW ORLEANS DAILY PICAYUNE, pg. 3, col. 3. "Charley horse." 18 July 1887, ST. LOUIS GLOBE-DEMOCRAT, pg. 8, col. 5. WHENEVER anything ails a ball player this year they call it "Charley- horse." "Tom-and-Jerry-horse" would fit many cases. 21 August 1887, ST. LOUIS GLOBE-DEMOCRAT, pg. 9, col. 5. CORKHILL will have to lay off. A "charlie-horse" has him in its fierce grip. 28 Spetmeber 1888, CINCINNATI TIMES-STAR, pg. 6, col. 1. RED LEGGED CRIPPLES. "CHARLEY HORSE" DAY OUT AT THE BALL PARK. (...) He ran down from second to third, and, just as he reached Gus. Albert's territory, he felt that awful sensation of contracting muscles in his leg that ball players call "a Charley Horse." 12 June 1889, SPORTING LIFE, pg. 4, col. 5. BROOKLYN'S Tom Burns is crippled with "Charley-horse." 13 June 1891, NEW YORK SPORTING TIMES, pg. 5, col. 2. GERMAN MELODY Chris Von der Ahe's boys are just the stuff, Sing a ding I ding I day! The Brown Stocking gang are strong and tough, Sing a ding I ding I day! "Dhey are joust der fellers" cries Chris the boss, "You never hear dhem cry 'bout Sholly-hoss; Der 'Merican pennant dhey vill nail to der cross," Sing a ding I ding I day! --C. J. FOLEY. 15 August 1891, NEW YORK SPORTING TIMES, pg. 6, col. 3. To this inquiry the Superintendent of the Norristown (Pa.) Insane Asylum answers: "My patients have Charlie Horse in the brain, and 83 per cent. of them are addicted to writing verses." 8 September 1907, WASHINGTON POST, Misc. Section, pg. 3, cols. 2-3. "His partner was Charley Radbourne, the great pitcher, who was also famous as a heavy hitter. Radbourne was a great favorite with players and cranks, and everybody called him 'Old Hoss,' as a sort of affectionate nickname. "Once, somewhere back in the eighties, the Bostons were playing a game with the Providence nine, and Charley was at the bat. The Providence pitcher handed him a low one, and he landed on it with the tip of his heavy bat, lifting it so far into the air that it disappeared from view entirely. "Charley started on a race around the bases, and by the time he got halfway between second and third some one shouted that the ball had gone over the fence. Then he slowed down and loped toward third, while the Providence crowd maintained that uncanny silence which home crowds always put on when the home team gets a jolt. "Just as Charley passed third base something seemed to crack in his leg, and he came down to the home plate limping, and evidently in pain. Nova, who had sprung from the players' bench in excitement, rushed up to him. "'What's a mattah wit you, Charley Hoss?' he shouted, combining Charley's given name and nickname. "'My leg is tied up in knots,' said Charley. "And from that day to this lameness in baseball players has been called 'Charley Hoss,' or 'Charles Horse.'" See also COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY, May 1993 and February 1994. This doesn't explain the reasoning behind the term, but our earliest citation is now this, from SPORTING LIFE, 15 September 1886, pg. 5, col. 2: JOE QUINN is troubled with "Charley-horse." This is from SPORTING LIFE, 29 September 1886, pg. 4, col. 6: Joe Quinn will do the honors at second until Sam Crane's recovery, the latter having wrenched his hip in running through the mud to first in the second Kansas City game. (...) Joe Quinn took Sam Crane's place at second when the former was disabled in last Tuesday's game, and as it was Joe's first game for a long while, he received quite an ovation. The Library of Congress does not have the KANSAS CITY STAR for 1886. I had looked through the STAR on a microfilm loan and when I went to K. C. about three years ago. I didn't notice "Charley horse," but a specific date will help. I'll recheck the 1886 issues for THE SPORTING NEWS and THE CLIPPER. I'd be very surprised if "Charley horse" is much older than 1886. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 03:31:01 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Sporting Life gaps What one does for a microfilm gap! If you go to the New York Public Library's CATNYP catalog (also online) for SPORTING LIFE, you'll find that the library has v. 1-6, 9-16, 25-70, Apr. 15,1883-Apr. 7, 1886, Apr. 13, 1887-Mar. 28, 1891, Mar. 1895-June 3, 1922. New York City's Knickbocker Base Ball Club helped originate the modern game of baseball. The New York Public Library's Spalding Baseball Collection is one of the nation's finest. SPORTING LIFE (published in Philadelphia) was published in v. 1-74, Apr. 15, 1883-1926. Along with THE SPORTING NEWS and THE CLIPPER, SPORTING LIFE is essential to any scholarly baseball collection. The New York Public Library absolutely has to have a complete run. Yet the NYPL is missing volumes 7, 8, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 71, 72, 73, and 74! Not only is there this huge gap, but what IS microfilmed is in tiny print, blurry, torn, and nearly unreadable! I first visited the National Baseball Library in Cooperstown, New York for a few days in February 1996. I noticed then that it had a full run of SPORTING LIFE, but I didn't have time to go through all of those volumes. Besides, I thought it could be cured by other, closer institutions. I contacted the Philadelphia Free Library. It had the same microfilm, with the same gaps! Ditto for the Library of Congress! SABR (the Society for American Baseball Research) has a lending library that includes THE SPORTING NEWS and SPORTING LIFE. I asked for 1886-1887; SABR gave me 1896-1897. Several calls over several months said that the microfilm I wanted was out on loan. I asked if the microfilm existed at all. I don't remember what the full deal was, but I placed an order for WHENEVER it's available, and the fact is, it's been two years. It ain't comin'. The period 1886-1887 was especially important for the terms "fan," "Charley horse," and even "Windy City." I had to have it. I was busy with huge personal stuff in 1997 and then ANS and ADS meetings, but now was the time to revisit Cooperstown. The plan was to leave on the 3:30 p.m. Sunday bus (immediately after the ADS meeting) for the five-and-a-half hour ride to Cooperstown, NY; then a stay in a hotel; then a 9 a.m.-4 p.m. work session (without lunch); and then return on the 4:30 p.m. bus, arriving back in NYC at 10 p.m. All for a f***ing microfilm! I pleaded with the Cooperstown Library for me to buy a copy of the microfilms and donate them to the NYPL, so this wouldn't happen to anybody again. I got standard doublespeak about how the microfilms couldn't leave the building--even to be copied! After the library, I waited for the 4:30 p.m. bus home. And waited. Then I looked at the schedule and realized that the 4:30 p.m. bus was for WEEKENDS ONLY. On weekdays, there was only ONE bus home, and that was at 9 a.m.! I took a bus to nearby Oneonta--the same thing I'd done two years ago. However, the routes were cut back to a 5:50 a.m. bus and a 2:55 p.m. bus--both of which I'd missed! I stayed overnight in Oneonta, took the 5:50 a.m. bus, called in late for work (snowstorm, ya know), got to work at 12:30, worked without a lunch until closing at 6:30 p.m., and now present some of the findings. Who knows if it was worth all that friggin' trouble? Nothing's easy!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 03:32:40 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Windy City "The answer, my friend, Is blowin' in the wind. The answer is blowin' in the wind." Oh boy. In the January 1997 COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY, I stated that Chicago's nickname "the Windy City" derived from the Haymarket riots of the first week of May 1886, and the biblical phrase "reap the wind, sow the whirlwind" as cited in the LOUISVILLE COURIER-JOURNAL. This smashed the previous theory--that "Windy City" derived from NEW YORK SUN editor Charles A. Dana's remarks about Chicago's bid for the Columbian Exhibition, circa 1889--by three years. It was baseball's city nicknames that inspired me. In THE SPORTING NEWS, "Windy City" would be used in late 1886. Same thing, I believe, in THE CLIPPER (a NY-based theatrical and sports weekly). The NEW YORK EVENING TELEGRAM would call Chicago's White Stockings the "Windy City nine" as early as May 1886--just a week after I'd spotted the "Windy City" citations in the COURIER-JOURNAL (a very popular newspaper at the time, edited by the well- known Col. Henry Watterson). Everything was in line for the 6 May 1886 date for "Windy City." The CHICAGO DAILY TRIBUNE didn't even bother to address "Windy City" until its September 1886 editorial. PUCK, LIFE, and THE JUDGE--the three famous humor magazines, and all based in New York City--constantly joked about Chicago, but "Windy City" just wasn't there in early 1886. And these humor magazines wouldn't pull punches! Still, there was this SPORTING LIFE gap. The last NYPL issue before April 1887 (where "Windy City" did appear) was 7 April 1886. Maybe "Windy City" was in April 14, April 21, April 28, or May 5, 1886? I had gambled a bit that "Windy City" would appear later in the gap, after the Haymarket crisis. This is from SPORTING LIFE, 21 April 1886, pg. 5, col. 4: THOSE seven left-handed Detroit sluggers will, no doubt, take a leaf from the Chicago book when they size up that right field fence in the Windy City. Oops. That September 1886 CHICAGO DAILY TRIBUNE article stated that "Windy City" was used by the "village papers" of Detroit and New York. I certainly checked out New York. This citation indicates that a Detroit newspaper was using it, but I had gone to the Library of Congress specifically to check the DETROIT FREE PRESS, and it was using "Garden City" for Chicago as late as 1887. Am I missing another Detroit paper or columnist? SPORTING LIFE had other "Windy City" citations in 1886, but not from one particular columnist and not of particular interest. The Chicago column was titled "REMLAP'S LETTER" and did NOT use the nickname. This is from the SPORTING LIFE of 2 June 1886, pg. 6, col. 6: QUESTIONS ANSWERED. PETERSON, Milwaukee.--Cincinnati is the Queen City, Baltimore the Monumental City, Brooklyn the City of Churches, Louisville the Falls City, Detroit the City of the Straits, Pittsburg the Smoky City, Philadelphia the Quaker City, New York Gotham, Chicago the Windy City, Boston the Hub, Washington the City of Magnificent Distance, New Orleans the Crescent City. Someone had to ask! It is interesting that Chicago is "the Windy City and not "the Garden City" nor "the Lake City" at this early a date. For other cities: PARLOR CITY--Binghamton, NY (12 May 1886, pg. 5, col. 6) SILVER CITY--Meriden, CT (12 May 1886, pg. 5, col. 5) CITY OF CYCLONES--Kansas City, MO (19 May 1886, pg. 4, col. 6) CITY OF HAMS--Cincinnati, OH (26 May 1886, pg. 5, col. 1) BEANTOWN--Boston, MA (26 May 1886, pg. 5, col. 3) FLOUR CITY--Rochester, NY (20 October 1886, pg. 5, col. 1). A perhaps telling note about the COURIER-JOURNAL is in the SPORTING LIFE, 13 October 1886, pg. 5, col. 3: THE Louisville _Courier-Journal_ is an unblushing thief. It recently took an article on Latham's batting written by Mr. Chadwick and rehashed it as an interview of one of its reporters with Jimmy Galvin. So, what next? I spent an 11-hour bus ride and a night in Oneonta to prove my own theory wrong! I can just hide it. Nobody found that for 112 years. C'mon, nobody's gonna know! Well, I'll recheck SPORTING LIFE, THE SPORTING NEWS, and THE CLIPPER for early 1886, with special attention to articles from Detroit and Detroit- Chicago games. It'll probably be there, and then our answer--as with "the Big Apple"--will be a sportswriter. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 03:55:27 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Bunt; Circus catch; Ladies' day This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_884768127_boundary Content-ID: 0_884768127[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII --part0_884768127_boundary Content-ID: 0_884768127[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.2 Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com Return-path: Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.c.uga.edu Subject: Bunt; Circus catch; Ladies' day Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 03:32:57 EST Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit BUNT BARNHART'S DICTIONARY OF ETYMOLOGY has 1889 for a baseball "bunt." Paul Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY has 1888 and 1891. This is from SPORTING LIFE, 2 June 1886, pg. 2, col. 3: Arlie Latham quite captured the great crowd present by his good-natured antics, and was cheered as he left the field. Every one knows Latham's great feat is to "bunt" the ball and beat it to first. Latham was famous for this. His St. Louis Browns were champions in 1886. I don't know how Dickson could miss it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- CIRCUS CATCH Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY has 1888 for "circus catch." This is from SPORTING LIFE, 28 April 1886, pg. 5, col. 1: Steve Brady made a cricus catch and Hardie Henderson tried to get Greer to swear out a warrant for him. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- LADIES' DAY Paul Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY states that the first ladies' day was in 1883. This is from SPORTING LIFE, 25 August 1886, pg. 5, col. 2: "LADIES' DAY" is now six years of age. --part0_884768127_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:29:40 -0500 From: Fred Shapiro fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: "level the playing field" On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Gerald Cohen wrote: I recently received a query about the expression "to level the playing field." In what way is a playing field leveled? What is the origin of this It would seem that a playing field is leveled when its bumps, perhaps its slopes are smoothed out so no part is higher than any other part. The following citation illustrates the nonfigurative usage: 1978 _Business Week_ 1 May (Nexis) The new BL chairman did his first business deal at his upper-crust school in Grahamstown when he bid successfully for the job of leveling and grassing the school's playing fields. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1998 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 08:21:06 -0500 From: "ALAN BARAGONA (by way of Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vax.vmi.edu )" ABaragona[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: Very TAN--Giving Finger Coincidentally, the very day ADS-L members were discussing possible anachronisms in Amistad and Titanic, I read Roger Ebert's review of the latter in which he questioned whether "giving the finger" was a practice as early as 1912. I responded, as you can see below, and received this follow-up query from Ebert. Unfortunately, it doesn't have anything to do with language, unless you can come up with early terms for the practice he describes, but I told him I'd forward his question to you. ----- Forwarded Message ----- TO: ALAN BARAGONA, ABaragona FROM: Roger Ebert, REBERT DATE: 1/13/98, 10:18 PM Re: Titanic: Giving Finger Dear Alan, I got your address via the CompuServe Member Directory and used your message in the Answer Man for 1/11/98 (on CIS and at www.suntimes.com/ebert). Here;s how it ran: Q. You wrote in your review of "Titanic," "At one point Rose gives Lovejoy the finger; did young ladies do that in 1912?" This very question came up during an American Dialect Society's online discussion of anachronisms in "Amistad" (where characters say "hello" despite the fact that the word was not used until the invention of the telephone). Apparently, the gesture has been used at least since the last century (there are photographs of 19C people giving the finger), although I'd say it's unlikely that a young lady would have done so in 1912. (Alan Baragona, Staunton, Va.) A. Now I have another challenge for the anachronism-hunters at the American Dialect Society. It may be a little off their specialty, but ask them to do their best. In "The Wings of the Dove," a film based on a Henry James novel, two of the characters make love outdoors while braced up against a pillar in Venice. The novel is set earlier, but the film moves the action up to about 1910. In what year, according to the society's best thinking, did young ladies of the sort Henry James writes about begin to participate in such practices? ======================================= I'm not sure if Ebert is asking about 1) having sex against a pillar, 2) having sex in a public place, or 3) upper crust girls doing this sort of thing. Since it's apparent that prostitutes and country wenches certainly practiced the first two, I assume this is really a question about class behavior. I responded with Aubrey's famous story about Walter Raleigh and the "Mayd of Honour" up against a tree in a wood, but I'm not sure this is public enough to serve as an answer. If anyone is prurient enough to know something about this, I'll pass your answer along. If you want me to tell Ebert to come back when he has a damned question about language usage, I'll do that, too. Alan B. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 10:00:02 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Very TAN--Giving Finger Are we sure Roger Ebert isn't poking a little fun at us for saying it's "unlikely" that a young lady would have given someone the finger in 1912? Bundled up in that "unlikely" are a lot of assumptions about behavior of young ladies of that period and the validity of the official and personal historical records. Also, if we buy the storyline, by the time Kate Winslet's character flips the bird, she's been fraternizing with low-class passengers for some time and could have acquired the gesture. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com -------------------------------------- FROM: Roger Ebert, REBERT In "The Wings of the Dove," a film based on a Henry James novel, two of the characters make love outdoors while braced up against a pillar in Venice. The novel is set earlier, but the film moves the action up to about 1910. In what year, according to the society's best thinking, did young ladies of the sort Henry James writes about begin to participate in such practices? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 11:40:19 +0000 From: Jim Rader jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM Subject: Re: skell yet again Though I discovered on Nexis that skel was used in addition to skell , if less frequently, I never went back to our old citation file to check it out. (This is is the sort of sloppiness I criticize other people for.) The following turned up: "...'skels,' as the cops call big-city bums, come over from the Bowery to roost and doze." Thomas Conway, Headquarters Detective , Dunellen, N.J. 11 (8) Jan. 1955, p. 40 Headquarters Detective was a pulp crime magazine--I should say is: amazingly, it's still published, up to, if I recall correctly, vol. 57, according to Library of Congress records. Someone--an outside contributor, I think, though I would have to ask Gil--read pulp crime magazines systematically in the 1950's and Merriam files owe much of what he slang material of the period to this person. The handwritten citation slip is actually dated October 27, 1954. If skel(l) was current enough to get into 1950's crime fiction, I don't even want to guess how old the word actually is. Jim Rader ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 09:14:21 -0800 From: Keith Chambless keith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUENEPTUNE.COM Subject: Re: "level the playing field" On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, Gerald Cohen wrote: I recently received a query about the expression "to level the playing field." In what way is a playing field leveled? What is the origin of this I always figured it meant anyone who excels on bumpy ground ois gonna get screwed. Keith keith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]blueneptune.com - home keith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]opentv.com - work ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:06:54 -0500 From: Pat Courts courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AIT.FREDONIA.EDU Subject: Re: skell yet again I asked a friend of mine who works a narcotics detail in Albany. He says The term "skel" refers to a particularly low form of criminal. Typically one who commits impulsive crimes which don't require much skill or intelligence. The term seems to have originated, and is most commonly used by the NYPD. In Albany we usually would refer to such persons as "mutts". (e.g. We picked up these two "skels" for the liquor store robbery.) So now, what about "mutts"? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:23:19 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: skell yet again At 04:06 PM 1/14/98 -0500, you (Pat Courts courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AIT.FREDONIA.EDU ) wrote: ["Skel(l)"] seems to have originated, and is most commonly used by the NYPD. In Albany we usually would refer to such persons as "mutts".... So now, what about "mutts"? FWIW, OED2's first cite for "mutt" is 1901. OED says it's originally US slang meaning stupid or worthless person (short for "mutton-head"). It says the common application of "mutt" to animals is derivative (first cite, 1904). Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:39:52 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: RE Very TAN--Giving Finger At 10:00 AM 1/14/98 -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: Are we sure Roger Ebert isn't poking a little fun at us for saying it's "unlikely" that a young lady would have given someone the finger in 1912? Actually I said that, not Ebert, though in his review he implies he thought it might be unbelievable because it was unseemly as well as anachronistic. As for the assumptions you go on to mention, you're quite right, but I haven't seen the movie and don't know about Kate's adventures in steerage. I think we can agree that it would've been shocking for a well-bred young lady (if that describes her role) to flip the bird in 1912. That wouldn't make one incapable of it. Alan Bundled up in that "unlikely" are a lot of assumptions about behavior of young ladies of that period and the validity of the official and personal historical records. Also, if we buy the storyline, by the time Kate Winslet's character flips the bird, she's been fraternizing with low-class passengers for some time and could have acquired the gesture. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com -------------------------------------- FROM: Roger Ebert, REBERT In "The Wings of the Dove," a film based on a Henry James novel, two of the characters make love outdoors while braced up against a pillar in Venice. The novel is set earlier, but the film moves the action up to about 1910. In what year, according to the society's best thinking, did young ladies of the sort Henry James writes about begin to participate in such practices? Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vax.vmi.edu You know, years ago, my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this world, Elwood, you must be . . ."--she always called me 'Elwood'--"In this world, Elwood, you must be oh, so smart or oh, so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. And you may quote me. Elwood P. Dowd ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 16:23:59 -0600 From: Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: Ebert and anachronism I read Ebert's article in the Sun-Times last week. My impression was that he was tongue-in-cheekly telling ADS to **** ourselves with his followup question about when well-bred young ladies began to have vertical, public sex. As best as I can tell, based on my own experience and observation (and I'm always on the lookout for this kind of thing), vertical, public sex is not common even among the lower classes, even in our enlightened age. More importantly, when discussing anachronism in films and television, it seems to me that we should not fret so much about things like language and gesture. Movies and such are aimed at today's mass audiences, and so words, idioms and gestures must be translated. Many of us (myself included, at times) are quick to jump on diachronic and regional intra-language issues, but have no problem when we are dealing with translated dialog. When all the Russians speak to each other in late 20th-century English in "Anastasia," no one complains about anachronistic use of language or gesture (I know, it's a cartoon, but it's just an example of a common practice). But if filmmakers make a movie about a historical event that happened in an English-speaking environment, they should be historically accurate in their portrayal of the language at that date? Why? I'll grant that a certain amount of historical accuracy regarding language/gesture is often necessary for verisimilitude, but no one producing Beowulf or Chaucer (extreme examples, fer sure) for modern audiences could afford to adhere very closely to a historical standard. If Winslett's character would more likely have stuck her thumb up to her nose in the early 20th century, and if director James Cameron had known this, he would still have been wise to have her go with the finger. The former gesture would not have had the power with today's audiences that it would have had in the early 20th century--to communicate that power, you must use a gesture the audience will "get," regardless of its chronological status. Greg ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 17:49:40 -0500 From: Margaret Ronkin ronkinm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUSUN.GEORGETOWN.EDU Subject: H-AFRO-AM on African-American studies (fwd) *************************************************************************** From: H-Net Announcements Editor announce[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]h-net.msu.edu ANNOUNCING H-Afro-Am H-NET LIST ON African-American Studies Sponsored by H-Net, Humanities & Social Sciences On-line and Michigan State University H-Afro-Am is a moderated internet discussion forum whose purpose is to provide an exchange of information for professionals, faculty and advanced students, in the field of African American Studies (also called Afrocentricity, Africology, Africana Studies, Afro-American Studies, Black Studies, and Pan-African Studies). As an electronic infrastructure for the field, it will establish a professional academic foundation inclusive of all ideological tendencies and schools of thought. The intended audience for H-Afro-Am is mainly academic: faculty, administrative and research professionals, graduate students, and advanced undergraduates. The focus is on the African Diaspora though mainly on the US experience, and then to the African Diaspora in comparison to the US. The editorial style will be similar to one appropriate for a journal (written text) and a round table discussion at a professional meeting (short exchanges between colleagues). The main issue is to maintain a high level of professionalism, in content and form, so that everyone has access and can benefit. This is not a plan for uniformity or consensus, but ground rules for a dynamic exchange of ideas and information in which agreements and conflicts can be experienced and learned from as well. H-Afro-Am is also the official voice of the The Collegium for African American Research in Europe (CAAR), which was established in 1992 by a group of European scholars who saw the need to promote African American scholarship from an international perspective. Since then, CAAR has grown considerably and now has over 240 members from 26 countries. The aim of CAAR is to spread information and documentation, and encourage the exchange of ideas by organizing panels and conferences, publishing a newsletter, preparing collective publications, and creating working groups on a variety of topics. For more information on CAAR, point your browser to: http://www.hum.ou.dk/projekter/CAAR/ H-AfroAm is FREE and open to everyone with a mature and abiding interest in African-American history and studies. Scholars, writers, teachers, and librarians professionally interested in the subject are particularly invited to join. It is coedited by Abdul Alkalimat, University of Toledo; Robert Newby, Central Michigan University; and Carl Pedersen, Center for American Studies, Odense University, Denmark. Like all H-Net lists, it is moderated to filter out flames or irrelevant postings. It is advised by a board of scholars. To join H-Afro-Am, send a message to from the account where you wish to receive list mail: listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]h-net.msu.edu and include only this text (note the hyphens; no signature files or styled text): sub h-afro-am firstname lastname, institution Example: sub h-afro-am Jane Doe, U of Pennsylvania Follow the instructions you receive by return mail. If you have questions or experience difficulties in attempting to subscribe, please send a message to: **************************** ABOUT H-NET H-AFRO-AM is owned by H-Net, an international network of scholars in the humanities and social sciences that creates and coordinates electronic networks, using a variety of media, and with a common objective of advancing humanities and social science teaching and research. H-Net was created to provide a positive, supportive, equalitarian environment for the friendly exchange of ideas and scholarly resources. H-NET sponsors dozens of e-mail lists and Web sites for them in a variety of disciplines and fields, publishes reviews of scholary books and articles on the internet, and provides a weekly Job Guide. Our host is Michigan State University. More information can be obtained by sending an e-mail message to h-net[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]h-net.msu.edu or by browsing our Web site at http://h-net.msu.edu. ******************************** We look forward to hearing from you! Abdul Alkalimat Robert Newby Carl Pedersen ===================================================================== === ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Jan 1998 to 14 Jan 1998 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 14 Jan 1998 to 15 Jan 1998 There are 10 messages totalling 394 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Berry; Pudding; Pie 2. Ringer; Deuces take 'em 3. email/irc MA thesis survey 4. "911" as a verb? (3) 5. Metcalf on C-SPAN 6. english novels 7. "as best as I can remember" 8. "level the playing field" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 04:59:03 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Berry; Pudding; Pie BERRY The DA and RHHDAS have "berry" from 1887 as a baseball term meaning "an easy opponent, something easily done, a cinch." This is from SPORTING LIFE, 28 April 1886, pg. 5, col. 3: THE opinion is pretty generally expressed that Baltimore will not be a "berry" for anybody this season. We trust they have'nt set the pace too fast to last. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- PUDDING I don't have the next, unpublished "P-Z" RHHDAS handy. I've previously posted material (a money "pot," for example) that may or may not be helpful. This is from SPORTING LIFE, 5 May 1886, pg. 4, col. 5: NOT A "PUDDING." The Macon Club Astonishing Its Rivals by Its Strong Play. MACON, Ga., April 28.--Editor SPORTING LIFE:--The readers of THE SPORTING LIFE doubtless remember the poor playing of the Birmingham, Ala., Club in the Southern League last year, which won for that club the title of being the "pudding" of the League, inasmuch as every club that played them easily won the game. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- PIE The DA has "pie" meaning "something quite easy, a treat, a cinch, also _easy as pie_," from 1889. It's a sporting quote from OUTING. This is from SPORTING LIFE, 26 May 1886, pg. 8, col. 1: LATHAM's base-running is said to be simply wonderful. He has several times ran in from third with the catcher under the bat. As for stealing second and third, it's like eating pie. This is from SPORTING LIFE, 15 September 1886, pg. 5, col. 3: THE St. Louis Maroons are no longer "pie" for the other League clubs. It takes hard work to down them now. The RHHDAS has the similar "piece of cake" from 1936 and "cake" from 1911, but I also have an 1886 "cake" somewhere near my "pie." Notice that it's EATING pie, not BAKING pie--which might not be easy. Actually, eating pie might not be easy, either. Say you're in Houlihan's, and someone offers you the apple pie... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 04:59:24 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Ringer; Deuces take 'em RINGER The DA has "ringer" from 1890, meaning "one who enters a contest under false pretenses by keeping secret his identity and past performances." This is from SPORTING LIFE, 28 April 1886, pg. 1, col. 2: Theatrical Base Ballists. On Thursday last the Walnut Street Theatre base ball nine, composed of attaches of the theatre, sat rather heavily upon the McCaull Opera House team, the latter thereby losing the set-out the gallant Colonel had promised them in the event of victory. (...) The feature of the game was the battery work of Wisner and Riley. The Temple Theatre is anxious to try the mettle of manager Fleishman's boys, and a game will probably be arranged. Look out for "ringers" from the _Record_ office. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- DEUCES TAKE 'EM This was a law professor's favorite phrase. "And then you serve him with a subpoena duces tecum," which he'd always follow with "I thought aces take 'em." The deuce is the lowest card in nearly all card games. "Deuce" is also slang for "devil," but I didn't see this in the RHHDAS. New York's 42nd Street used to be called "The Deuce." Young girls were warned to stay away, because deuces take 'em. This is from SPORTING LIFE, 28 April 1886, pg. 1, col. 1: ...but for the "left-handed phenomenon"--the deuce take him--would have come off easy winners. Paul Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY has "phenom" from 1890, but "phenomenon" and "phenom" are all over 1886, especially for the pitcher "Phenomenal" Smith. "Left-handed phenomenon" is interesting; "south-paw" was also used often in 1886. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- Maybe one day I can have two nights in Oneonta. :-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 11:58:48 +0100 From: Mike FOX-ecki mlisecki[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KKI.NET.PL Subject: email/irc MA thesis survey If you feel like helping a fellow linguist-to-be in writing his MA thesis about the Internet "dialect" then you might help him doing this survey. NOTE: You should be acquainted with IRC, unless you only do the three questions about email. If you would rather help me with the survey about MUDing then let me know and I shall mail it to you. Any other questions? I'd be glad to answer them. mlisecki[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kki.net.pl ===================================================================== == My name is Michal Lisecki, and I am a fifth year student at University of Silesia, Poland. My nick on the IRC is usually either "lisu" or "cmc". I am currently working on my thesis under the subject: An Interdisciplinary Study of Computer-mediated Communication. The Language of the Internet on the basis of selected services /email, IRC, MOOs/MUDs./ The following survey is to help me analyze my data on email, IRC in Polish and English. All replies will be kept strictly anonymous. For the following questions, please give as much detail in your answers as you feel comfortable revealing. Please forward this to any of your friends. I did not think it will be that hard to get the respondents. ===================================================================== ==== ++++ IRC ++++ Question 1. Are you a native speaker of English? Question 2. When using IRC, do you feel that you are "talking" to other people, or "writing" to them? If neither, with what would you compare IRC? Question 3. Is it possible to have IRC friends, or just acquaintances? ----------- GREETINGS / LEAVE-TAKINGS ------------- Question 4. When you enter a channel for the first time, how would you greet the people who are already there? Question 5. When you enter a channel for the second (or more) time, how would you greet the people who are already there? Quesion 6. When leaving a channel how do you usually say goodbye? (give as many examples as you can think of) Question 7. You are already in a channel when a new person joins it. How would you greet them (or would you greet them at all) if: a. you already know this person? b. you do not already know this person? Question 8. You are already in a channel when someone who is in the same channel as yourself has to leave. What would you say (if anything) if: a. You know this person, and he will be coming back soon? b. You know this person, but he will not be back until tomorrow at the earliest? d. You DON'T know this person, but he will be coming back soon? e. You DON'T know this person, and he will not be back until tomorrow at the earliest? ------------ PARTICLES / PHONETIC SPELLING ------------ Question 9. Particles are a part of speech -- they are often spoken, but hardly ever written. How often do you use particles in your IRC communication? a. Never b. Sometimes, but seldom c. Often d. Very often e. Always (Particles are words like "ummm", "well", "you see", "the thing is ..." etc.) Question 10. English isn't always pronounced as it is written. Sometimes people say "hoi" instead of "hi", "dawg" instead of "dog", "ya" instead of "you", "watcha upta" instead of "what are you up to? etc. How often do you write English as it is pronounced on Internet Relay Chat? a. Never b. Sometimes, but seldom c. Often d. Very often e. Always ------------ EMOTIONS AND ACTIONS ------------- Question 11. Do you believe it is possible to express emotions on Internet Relay Chat? If yes, how does one do so? eg. use of capitalisation, emoticons, letter-repetition (ie. Hellooooo, reeeeeeeee), use of multiple punctuation marks (ie. hi :))))) !!!!!!!!), the "/me" command, a combination or all of the above, or something else? Question 12. Do you believe it is possible to express actions on Internet Relay Chat? If yes, how does one do so? ------------- NICKS ------------- Question 13. a. Is choice of Nick important to you? b. How did you come to choose your nick? c. How do you usually indicate whether your message is intended for one person or the entire channel? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Please answer the following questions if you feel comfortable in doing so. Question 14. Age? Question 15. Sex / Gender? Question 16. Nick? Question 17. How do you have access to IRC? (ie. through School, University, Work, privately or other) Question 18. Would you be interested in being kept up-to-date with the progress of my thesis? Question 19. In my thesis, may I quote you by "nick", should I anonymize you or should I not quote you at all? Question 20. Is there anything else you would like to say about IRC English or IRC Polish? ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ++++ email ++++ Question 21. When writing an email message do you think of it as of a standard letter writing or is it different? If so then please comment on that difference if you can. Question 22. Do you use any kind of sig (signature) in your email correspondence? If yes, then how long is it and what kind of info does it contain? (you may as well include it here) Question 23. Do you use any special expressions like those mentioned in Q.11 in email? ===================================================================== ==== END Thank you very much for your time. Michal Lisecki (lisu or cmc on #katowice or #gliwice or #philosophy) University of Silesia, Poland. ======================================================___ ___ _ _ Mike FOX-ecki mlisecki[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]priv2.onet.pl //__ // // \\// irc [lisu] mlisecki[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kki.net.pl // // // /\\ UIN [4324037] http://priv2.onet.pl/ka/mlisecki // //__// // \\ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 13:22:02 -0500 From: "Virginia P. Clark" Virginia.Clark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVM.EDU Subject: "911" as a verb? I came across the following sentence last night in a novel that I'm reading. The speaker is an LA detective; "Irit" is the name of a character: "They called roll, Irit wasn't there, they went looking for her, couldn't find her, 911'd Westside Division, who sent a couple of units. . . ." I haven't seen this usage before. Has it been around for a while? Virginia ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 10:45:19 -0800 From: Keith Chambless keith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUENEPTUNE.COM Subject: Re: "911" as a verb? "They called roll, Irit wasn't there, they went looking for her, couldn't find her, 911'd Westside Division, who sent a couple of units. . . ." I haven't seen this usage before. Has it been around for a while? Virginia I never heard it before. But I've heard of 86'd. And I've heard someone say "I'll 86 you from the bar", so 86 is a transitive as well as an intransitive verb, why not 911 too? Keith P.S. Hi. Just subscribed a couple of days ago. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 16:09:48 -0500 From: Denis Anson danson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MISERI.EDU Subject: Re: "911" as a verb? On Thursday, January 15, 1998 1:45 PM, Keith Chambless [SMTP:keith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUENEPTUNE.COM] wrote: "They called roll, Irit wasn't there, they went looking for her, couldn't find her, 911'd Westside Division, who sent a couple of units. . . ." I haven't seen this usage before. Has it been around for a while? Virginia I never heard it before. But I've heard of 86'd. And I've heard someone say "I'll 86 you from the bar", so 86 is a transitive as well as an intransitive verb, why not 911 too? Keith P.S. Hi. Just subscribed a couple of days ago. I once asked a bartender about the 86 nomenclature. He told me that it stemmed from a small restaurant that had a large menu, but the most popular item on the menu was number 86. About half the time, item 86 wasn't available, so when anything else ran out, it was referred to as being 86ed, meaning that they were out of it. The usage was "86 the scrambled eggs." The meaning was that you didn't take any orders *for* the item that was 86ed. The usage now seems to have broadened to include not taking orders *from* a person who has been 86ed. Denis Anson ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:48:55 EST From: Davidhwaet Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Metcalf on C-SPAN Allan Metcalf, ADS Executive Secretary, will be on C-SPAN's "Booknotes this coming Sunday, January 18, at 8 p.m. and again at 11 p.m. It will be an hour- long interview with host Brian Lamb about the book he and David Barnhart wrote _America in So Many Words_. I'm going to try to find a twelve year old in the neightborhood to help me tape it; I suspect it will be useful in class. There is a preview on C-SPAN's website: www.c-span.org/booknotes.htm David R. Carlson 34 Spaulding St. Amherst MA 01002 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 15:27:00 CST From: Edward Callary TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MVS.CSO.NIU.EDU Subject: english novels can anyone suggest some British (preferably English) novels with lots of Englishisms and slang. Literary merit is of less concern than dialect features. Thanks Edward Callary Northern Illinois University ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 21:58:28 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: "as best as I can remember" Jerry Cohen wrote on January 8: I believe the construction almost certainly originated as a syntactic blend--a good example of which is "time and again," blended from "time after time" and "again and again." In the case of "as best as I can remember," let's leave off "remember" for the moment and operate with the following context: "I'll do it as well as I can" and "I'll do it to the best of my ability." These two can blend to produce "I'll do it as best as I can." With "as best as" now interchangeable with "as well as" (in this initial context), its use was extended to other contexts, e.g. "as best as I can remember." ............................ (1) I'll do it as well as I can. (2) I'll do it the best I can. (from ...the best way I can) These two got blended. Jerry, you may not say (2), but I do, and I suspect others do too. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 22:23:20 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: "level the playing field" At 08:01 PM 1/13/98 -0500, you (Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU ) wrote: I recently received a query about the expression "to level the playing field." In what way is a playing field leveled? What is the origin of this unusual expression? Is it older than the past decade or so? For me, the implication has always been that the losing person/team is claiming that the "field" is "tilted" to his-er/their DISadvantage. It's clearly figurative rather than literal. I think the expression has been around for well over a decade, but I'm not sure. Football fields are rounded so that rainwater drains off to the sides, but that's not the "leveling" that Missouri wanted when Colorado got a 5th down a couple of years ago and when a Nebraska player kicked the ball illegally this past year. DMLance ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Jan 1998 to 15 Jan 1998 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 15 Jan 1998 to 16 Jan 1998 There are 10 messages totalling 353 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Please pardon the intrusion 2. WALL STREET: Super Bowl Index; January Effect; Dead Cat Bounce 3. Has-been (2) 4. for Boyd Davis 5. english novels 6. love that won't shut up 7. No subject given 8. la langue 9. "as best as I can remember" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 01:14:51 -0500 From: Reminder[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PM01SM.PMM.MCI.NET Subject: Please pardon the intrusion I am not on the internet to burden you with unsolicited advertising and if I've offended you in any way, I do sincerely apologize. To be removed from this list, simply reply to this message with "Capitalist Pig!" in the subject field. My point is brief, in that I would like to aquaint you with a service that you've probably never heard of and, since you're in the United States, is available to you at very little cost. You might just throw away your calender for good once you see my website. Take a quick look at http://www.freeyellow.com/members2/supervisor/NRS1.html End Intrusion. Cordially, BCA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:20:44 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: WALL STREET: Super Bowl Index; January Effect; Dead Cat Bounce Wall Street needs an historical dictionary. Maybe Random House, Merriam Webster, or Oxford University Press can publish one. I mean a big, great Wall Street block that you wouldn't want to drop on your foot. Maybe tie the book in as a gift with a subscription to THE WALL STREET JOURNAL or BARRON'S or FORBES or FORTUNE or BUSINESS WEEK or THE FINANCIAL TIMES or THE JOURNAL OF COMMERCE. All these business books, all these business periodicals, all these investors (with money!), AND NO DICTIONARY?? Oh sure, there's a book called WALL STREET WORDS if you want to know the meaning of "IRA." But I mean a real, historical dictionary. "Bulls" and "bears" to "white knights." Historical cartoons included. I have piles on Wall Street terms. Three Wall Street words in particular have been recently in the news (if not in the dictionaries). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- SUPER BOWL INDEX "Super Bowl Index" or "SBI" has been used, for obvious reasons. I don't have Nexis handy, but this January 1996 article is from http://utahonline.sltrib.com/96/JAN/26/tbz/23241911.htm: SUPER BOWL COULD BE SUPER FOR INVESTORS By Greg Fields Knight-Ridder News Service (...) The SBI calls for an up year for the market if the Super Bowl is won by an original National Football League team before its merger with the American League created the modern-day NFL. Conversely, it will be a down year if a team from the old AFL prevails. So no matter who wins Super Bowl XXX on Sunday, the market will rally. Because both contenders--the Pittsburgh Steelers and the Dallas Cowboys--were original NFL franchises. (Yes, the Steelers are an AFC team today, but that switch came later.) So 1996 is bound to be an up year because of the Super Bowl, says Robert Stovall, a well-known New York investment advisor who has long championed the indicator. Skeptics may scoff, but the SBI scores more often than any field goal kicker in the NFL. It's been right 26 of 29 times, according to Stovall. The SBI is just one of many Wall Street legends that allegedly predict future stock market activity. Women's hemlines were once closely watched on Wall Street: If hemlines rose, so did stock prices. If they started to fall, it was time to sell. Market pundits say that indicator has come under severe duress in recent years, with eclectic fashion styles and sexual-harassment guidelines and the advent of the pantsuit. Some folklore has origins that are fairly easy to trace. For instance, the belief that October is a jinxed month has a lot to do with rather nasty stock market crashes in 1929 and 1987 and a harrowing 200-point drop in 1989. But unlike most indicators, the SBI is actually credited to an author--Leonard Koppett of The New York Times, a sportswriter who in 1978 dubbed his discovery the Koppett Cycle. (...) GO GREEN BAY!!!!!!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- JANUARY EFFECT There are lots of citations for this. This one is from http://stocks.miningco.com/library/weekly/aa121597.htm: The January Effect by Michael Griffis Small-cap stocks usually outperform large-cap stocks from the end of December through January. This phenomenon is called The January Effect. Although short lived, it is persistent. It has occurred for at least the last 15 years (probably longer), despite the fact that it is widely known and frequently discussed. The cause? Portfolio balancing and tax-loss selling, especially by mutual and pension funds, may be responsible for much of the performance differences between small cap and large capitalization stocks. There is some research suggesting that the smaller the company, the more pronounced the effect. In fact, up to half of the annual performance of many small cap stocks may be attributable to The January Effect. (...) A similar seasonal phenomenon--The Value Effect--occurs between Value Stocks and Growth Stocks. Value Stocks outperform Growth Stocks during the short transition from one year to the next. The Chicago Mercantile Exchange has documented The Value Effect on their web site... Another article (with links) can be found at http://www.forbes.com/forbes/121696/5814392a.htm. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- DEAD CAT BOUNCE One Friday last October, I found myself in Tunisia and heard that the Asian stock markets had crashed. Everyone knew what would follow on Monday. MORRIS THE CAT: Time for din-din! Excuse me. My apartment has been invaded by an imaginary dead cat! POPIK: Aren't you dead?? MORRIS THE CAT: Nine lives. Several days later, I got the results from that Monday. Then I didn't get another paper for several days!! I joked that I had lost all of my money in ancient Carthage. A guy had Rome and told me he'd spot me two Punic Wars. Also on my tour was Barbara Nicholson, a really nice, fabulous (now retired) woman in her late forties who had made money in the '80s bond market as head of her own firm. I told her it might be time to buy. She immediately replied: "Beware of the dead cat bounce." MORRIS THE CAT: I'm an etymologist, too. I cat-alog words. POPIK: Right. MORRIS THE CAT: I have a book! POPIK: Sure. MORRIS THE CAT: The MORRIS BOOK OF WORD AND PHRASE ORIGINS. POPIK: THAT'S AN AWFUL PUN!! THAT'S IT! OUT THE WINDOW! Gosh, you'd think you'd get more of a bounce from seven flights. Anyway, William Safire had the phrase in his column and traced it (Nexis search) to an Asian trader. It doesn't come from Asia, however. Barbara Nicholson insisted that it was simply a play on those 100 USES FOR A DEAD CAT books by Simon Bond. The phrase is shockingly not in the RHHDAS (which also doesn't have "January Effect"). Jerry Dunn's recent IDIOM SAVANT lists Wall Street slang, but has not one of these three terms. Anne Soukhanov's SPEAKING FREELY has a chapter on Wall Street, but likewise excludes all three terms. A Wall Street historical dictionary is really needed! "Dead cat bounce" plays on the old legend that a cat, if dropped from any height, always lands on its paws. "Dead cat bounce" is a little different in that the cat that's dropped from the height is already dead. It will bounce up very little after the great fall. A stock market "dead cat bounce" is not a true recovery. MORRIS THE CAT: Seven more lives! POPIK: Great. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:19:50 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Has-been The RHHDAS H-O doesn't have "has-been." The DA has it from 1896. This somewhat-related term is from SPORTING LIFE, 20 October 1886 (yep, there's more), pg. 3, col. 4: EVEN in California they now speak of Charlie Sweeney as a "used-to-be." Damon Runyan used "has-been" frequently in his writings. It was a popular baseball phrase from 1910-1930. SPORTING LIFE, 6 May 1911, pg. 7, cols. 2-3, has a poem called "LAMENT OF THE 'HAS BEEN.'" Just how old is "has been"? 1896? The following--in both italics and quotation marks--is from the New York Morning Express, 4 September 1844, pg. 1, col. 1: Correspondence of the Express. GLOUCESTER, (MASS.) August 2, 1844 I prophecy, that in two years, Nahant will be numbered among the "_has beens_," for Gloucester is at last in a fair way of being noticed and known. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 08:34:51 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Has-been At 08:19 AM 1/16/98 EST, you wrote: Just how old is "has been"? Taint exactly new -- see OED2 "has-been," with cites dated 1606, 1786 (Burns), and 1827. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:03:16 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: for Boyd Davis Boyd, I can't find your address -- please write. Thanks, Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 07:53:00 CST From: Edward Callary TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MVS.CSO.NIU.EDU Subject: english novels addendum to my earlier post on english novels-the more recent the better and the pulpier the better. thanks Edward Callary ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 09:58:05 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: love that won't shut up Saw this on the OUTIL list--anybody know if this is true? Any more details? The later quote: "the love that dared not speak its name and now won't shut up", was coined in Time magazine. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 21:04:34 +0300 From: SERKAN DUYAN e111960[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ORCA.CC.METU.EDU.TR Subject: No subject given hi I'm receivng a lot of messages which are sent to you I havent understood why this is happening Could you help me? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 15:42:33 EST From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: la langue From today's L.A. Times: French Academicians Let Politicians Know It's Still an Homme's World Linguists say feminization of titles is ungrammatical--and worrisome. By JOHN-THOR DAHLBURG, Times Staff Writer PARIS--Members of the august Academie Francaise usually keep their noses out of politics. Every Thursday, the 40 "immortals," as they are known, gather at their domed home by the Seine for the never-ending chore of updating the academy's dictionary of the French language (as of this week they were on the second volume of the 9th edition, endeavoring to define the English import "manager"). Lately, however, three of the academicians--including the Academie's 79-year- old "perpetual secretary," Maurice Druon, and one of the eminent body's two women, Helene Carrere d'Encausse--have been sufficiently worried by a development in government circles that they have appealed publicly to President Jacques Chirac to stop it. The purity of French is at stake, they warned, along with the "image of France in the world" and the nation's "cultural future." The troubling development: Some of the six female colleagues of Socialist Prime Minister Lionel Jospin have made it known that they prefer to be called madame la ministre instead of madame le ministre. For Cabinet members such as Socialist Segolene Royal and Dominique Voynet of the Greens party, using the feminine article "la" instead of the masculine "le" is a subtle but clear signal that women, long kept at arm's length from power in France, have arrived. For the trio of academicians, it's a shocking and ungrammatical deviation in a language where all nouns have a gender. Whether the person given the job is a man or a woman, they maintain, the word "minister" in French was and remains masculine. And what might be next, Druon, Carrere d'Encausse and colleague Hector Biancotti fret in their letter to Chirac, which was published in the Parisian newspaper Le Figaro. Are female lawyers, now given the same courtesy title of "master" as their male counterparts, to be called "mistress," with the double- entendre that entails? Should the inscription on the Pantheon, the Paris monument that is the equivalent of Britain's Westminster Abbey, be rechiseled to be less gender specific (it now praises "great men," hommes in French being a synonym for all human beings)? Will France buckle to the same "demagogic influences," they ask, that in Quebec and Belgium have spawned new coinages such as professeure (a female teacher) and sapeuse-pompiere (a female firefighter)? Get used to it, has come the reply of many female politicians here. "If certain words don't have a feminine variation, it's because for centuries, there was no woman to occupy those functions," said Royal, the minister for public schools. "No one can ignore that the systematic use of the masculine indicates a masculine image of power, which can only reinforce the supremacy of men in a supermasculinized world," said legislator Joelle Dusseau, who has started calling herself the French version of "senatress." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 16:44:22 -0500 From: Pat Courts courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AIT.FREDONIA.EDU Subject: Re: "as best as I can remember" Chicago born and bred, with stints in East Lansing, Michigan and now upstate NY: I always do it as best I can, but more often I do it bes[t] I can. Now some folks like it and some folks don't. At 09:58 PM 1/14/98 -0600, Donald M. Lance wrote: Jerry Cohen wrote on January 8: I believe the construction almost certainly originated as a syntactic blend--a good example of which is "time and again," blended from "time after time" and "again and again." In the case of "as best as I can remember," let's leave off "remember" for the moment and operate with the following context: "I'll do it as well as I can" and "I'll do it to the best of my ability." These two can blend to produce "I'll do it as best as I can." With "as best as" now interchangeable with "as well as" (in this initial context), its use was extended to other contexts, e.g. "as best as I can remember." ............................ (1) I'll do it as well as I can. (2) I'll do it the best I can. (from ...the best way I can) These two got blended. Jerry, you may not say (2), but I do, and I suspect others do too. DMLance ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Jan 1998 to 16 Jan 1998 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 16 Jan 1998 to 17 Jan 1998 There are 5 messages totalling 144 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "stronaks" for English muffins 2. for Boyd Davis 3. love that won't shut up (2) 4. WALL STREET: Super Bowl Index; January Effect; Dead Cat Bounce ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 00:08:08 -0600 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: "stronaks" for English muffins A question from the ballad-l list: From dnichols[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]d-and-d.com Sat Jan 17 00:02:37 1998 Fri, 16 Jan 1998 20:42:47 -0500 (EST) ballad-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]indiana.edu Subject: Re: Folk/Oral Tradition "According to Dan Goodman" On Fri, 16 Jan 1998, Paul J. Stamler wrote: On Thu, 15 Jan 1998, Michael Cooney wrote: What do they call "English muffins" in England? They don't *have* English muffins in England. As far as I can tell, those are strictly American inventions, although distantly related to the scone. I believe they're more closely related to crumpets. Hmm ... this brings to mind something which has puzzled me for a long time. My father, while he lived, used to refer to "English Muffins" as "Stronaks" (spelling uncertain, of course.) I have suspected that was a brand which he ate when he first started eating them -- in Boston, FWIW. He was born in the early part of the 20th century. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 07:45:07 EST From: Boyd Davis FEN00BHD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU Subject: Re: for Boyd Davis Apologies to the group for taking bandwidth My address was supposed to have changed over winter holidays but the computer staff is running behind. So it's back to the old one listed above, fen00bhd (the 0s are zeroes), until... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 07:46:59 EST From: Boyd Davis FEN00BHD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU Subject: Re: love that won't shut up love that will not speak its name part was in last stanza of poem published in undergrad poetry journal by Oscar Wilde's lover; currently part of the script of Gross Indecency playing off-Broadway. The 'and now won't shut up' part is new to me ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 12:24:52 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: love that won't shut up In his autobiography "My Name Escapes Me," Alec Guinness talks about going to a play with gay themes and refers to (this is not an exact quotation but it's close) "The love that insists on speaking its name all the time." Whether "the love that won't shut up" is an inelegant variation on that or Guinness had that phrase in mind and polished it or the two phrases are independent I don't know. Alan Boyd Davis wrote: love that will not speak its name part was in last stanza of poem published in undergrad poetry journal by Oscar Wilde's lover; currently part of the script of Gross Indecency playing off-Broadway. The 'and now won't shut up' part is new to me ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Jan 1998 18:23:59 -0500 From: Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Subject: Re: WALL STREET: Super Bowl Index; January Effect; Dead Cat Bounce At 08:20 AM 1/16/98 -0500, Bapopik wrote: =A0=A0=A0=A0 Wall Street needs an historical dictionary. =A0=A0=A0=A0 Maybe Random House, Merriam Webster, or Oxford University P= ress can publish one.=A0 I mean a big, great Wall Street block that you wouldn't = want to drop on your foot.=A0 Maybe tie the book in as a gift with a subscriptio= n to THE WALL STREET JOURNAL or BARRON'S or FORBES or FORTUNE or BUSINESS WEEK or= THE FINANCIAL TIMES or THE JOURNAL OF COMMERCE. =A0=A0=A0 All these business books, all these business periodicals, all = these investors (with money!), AND NO DICTIONARY??=A0 Oh sure, there's a book = called WALL STREET WORDS if you want to know the meaning of "IRA."=A0 But I mea= n a real, historical dictionary.=A0 "Bulls" and "bears" to "white knights." Historical cartoons included.=A0 I have piles on Wall Street terms. I have a copy of something called "High Steppers, Fallen Angels and Lollipops," a book of Wall St. slang by Kathleen Odean, published by Dodd, Mead in 1988. I found it remaindered for $2.98 at Barnes & Noble a few years ago, marked = down from $17.95. Ms. Odean does list "January Effect" (dating the idea back = to 1906) but not "Super Bowl Index" or "Dead Cat Bounce," though her book is= full of neat stuff, including "Cats and Dogs."=20 MORRIS THE CAT:=A0 I'm an etymologist, too.=A0 I cat-alog words. POPIK:=A0 Right. MORRIS THE CAT:=A0 I have a book! POPIK:=A0 Sure. MORRIS THE CAT:=A0 The MORRIS BOOK OF WORD AND PHRASE ORIGINS. POPIK:=A0 THAT'S AN AWFUL PUN!!=A0 THAT'S IT!=A0 OUT THE WINDOW! I have a Morris the Cat for President t-shirt. --=20 Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Jan 1998 to 17 Jan 1998 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 17 Jan 1998 to 18 Jan 1998 There are 10 messages totalling 582 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Diversity 2. Baseball "Bugs" (an entomology) (2) 3. Subway Series 4. Titanic; Yannigan; Double Squeeze; Barnstormer; Hit-and-Run; et al. 5. Dilbert (U.S. Navy cartoons, 1943) 6. Fwd: long time no hear 7. An etymological coup? 8. "shake and bake" (=explosives) 9. Nothing Doing; Goat ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 01:59:21 -0800 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET Subject: Diversity Dear All, While in Palm Dessert, we got the LA times. Included was the following: "...at a restaurant in LA's Chinatown: 'Mu Shu Pork - burrito a la chinois." ... "The restaurant should've added: 'Buon Apetito!" Rima ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:09:11 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Baseball "Bugs" (an entomology) (This baseball bug "entomology" is presented as a lexical honor to 1997's WOTY, "millennium bug." More bugs, perhaps, to follow.) Ren Mulford, Jr.--the same sportswriter who popularized the baseball "fan"--also, twenty years later, popularized the baseball "bug." Mulford was based in Cincinnati (the Red Stockings were baseball's first "professional" team in 1869) and wrote for its local newspapers and for SPORTING LIFE for almost forty years (about 1883 to 1920). He's not in the Baseball Hall of Fame because he died before the Hall was created, and much before sportswriters began to be honored (there is now a separate sportswriters' award, but dead people don't have much of a lobby). Recognition for his contributions to baseball's language is certainly long overdue. Lack of recognition for a pioneer of American sportswriting embarrasses the sportwriters' award itself. The RHHDAS has a sporting "bug" from 1908. Paul Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY has it from 10 May 1907. 13 January 1906, SPORTING LIFE, pg. 7, col. 1. A headline is "Some Tales Told at the Fan Club." No bugs yet. 27 January 1906, SPORTING LIFE, pg. 10, col. 1. A headline is "TALES FOR FANS." Still no bugs. 3 March 1906, SPORTING LIFE, pg. 7, col. 1. The headline is "BUCKEYE BUGS/ PLAY BASE BALL ON WASHINGTON'S BIRTHDAY." The story begins "Cincinnati, O., February 24.--Buckeye base hits of the crop of 1906--amateur caliber--were made during an abnormally warm January afternoon, but on Washington's Birthday the first game of the comparatively new year was played in the Bottoms by teams of youngsters. (...) The Reds have always gone South earlier and returned home later than any other team, but nobody has seen any champion flag floating over the Western avenue green in consequenceof the extraordinary length of the periods of practice. As a matter of fact, these "prep trips" are largely valuable along one line. They are the swellest sort of "advertising campaign" and are worth every dollar that is spent on them. When the robins begin to warble the "Bugs" find their appetite for dope insatiable. They "eat" everything that is set before them with an avidity that would be lost if the dishes were all "home cooking." 7 April 1906, SPORTING LIFE, pg. 13, col. 2. "This weather is enough to frappe the enthusiasm of the Society of 32d Degree Bugs, but they are all sufficiently thawed out to send a message of cheer to Maryland." 19 May 1906, SPORTING LIFE, pg. 13, col. 1. "Up Chicago way the Bugs are feeling very gay over the turn of Fortune's wheel, which spilled Harry Steinfeldt into the West Side net." 2 June 1906, SPORTING LIFE, pg. 13, col. 1. The headline is "REDS' CLIMB SONG/ CINCINNATI BUGS SIT UP AND NOTICE THINGS." 6 October 1906, SPORTING LIFE, pg. 2, col. 1. The headline is "THE OLD RED SONG/ ONCE MORE THE BUGS CHANT OF 'NEXT YEAR.'" It begins: "Cincinnati, Sept. 29.--Editor--"Sporting Life."--In another week those Redbird of ours will crawl into their hole for the winter. Nothing, however, that Jack Frost has to offer in the shape of frost, ice or snow can keep them from chirping hopefully "The Song of Next Year." It has been heard often, but there's music in it that soothes the Bugs. No one has the hardihood to put in any Red claim for glory in 1907. Fantown is still dazed over the way Hope curled up this season. 26 January 1907, SPORTING LIFE, pg. 10, col. 1. The headline is "A BUG CLUB TALE." There are many other citations, but not of interest. Mulford used both "fan" and "bug" in 1906. I don't have an early citation of this that's close to the first "bug," but he would often call the team the "Redbugs." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:09:35 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Subway Series SUBWAY SERIES Two goals I had for this week were to visit that National Baseball Hall of Fame on Monday (for "fan" and other terms), and to visit New York City's Transit Museum on Friday (for "subway series"). I accomplished one of two. As stated here many months ago, when the New York Yankees played the New York Giants in three straight World Series matchups (1921, 1922, 1923), the term "Subway Series" was NOT used. It was called the "All-New York Series" or the "Battle of Coogan's Bluff." I didn't see "Subway Series" for the 1936 matchup, but it did appear in 1937. The New York Public Library had the SUBWAY SUN in its catalog (a run of about 30 years), but the material was in the annex. When first requested, nothing came over. When I called the annex, no one answered the telephone. When I requested several years of the publication again, I got "not on shelf." A librarian called over again to the annex; the New York Public Library didn't have any SUBWAY SUNS at all! I was told to try the Transit Museum archives. When I called the Transit Museum, I was told that they possessed a full run of the SUBWAY SUN. However, no one could visit their archives because the archivist quit. I was told to call again in August. In August, I was told to call again in late September. They still had no archivist. In late September, I was told to call back in late December. They still had no archivist. In late December, I was told that a new archivist would be hired after the first week in January. The first week in January, I made an appointment for Friday, January 16th, at 2 p.m. I told the new archivist what I needed on "Subway Series" (Paul Dickson's new BASEBALL DICTIONARY has a February 1st deadline), and to contact me with any additional help. I took Friday off and slept a little late. At about 9:30 a.m., the archivist from the Transit Museum called me. The SUBWAY SUN in their collection goes back to 1946. Not 1921-23. Not 1936-37. Have I tried the New York Public Library? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:10:26 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Titanic; Yannigan; Double Squeeze; Barnstormer; Hit-and-Run; et al. TITANIC SPORTING LIFE, 9 September 1905, pg. 3, col. 1, has the headline: THE TITANIC FIGHT ----------------------------- WILL BE BETWEEN THE GIANTS AND ATHLETICS. While New York had its baseball Giants, it did not have baseball Titans. The New York Titans was a football franchise from 1960 to 1963 that later was renamed the New York Jets. In fact, according to Peter Filichia's PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL FRANCHISES (From the Abbeville Athletics to the Zanesville Indians), baseball didn't have "Titans" anywhere! By contrast, 95 teams were called "Giants." It is the most popular team name, if you don't add "Red" to its variants (Reds, Red Stockings, Red Sox, Redlegs, Red Birds, Red Barons, Red Wings, Red Devils, et al.). ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- YANNIGAN I came across the same 10 February 1906 SPORTING LIFE "Yannigan" that's in Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY for the first citation. On page 7, col. 2, Ren Mulford, Jr. states that "A Red memory of training days at New Orleans would not be complete without recalling the last series there between the Regulars and Yanigans." Dickson also cites a December 1925 AMERICAN SPEECH article on "Logger Talk," which may indicate that "Yannigan" was a term from the logging camps in the Pacific Northwest. However, Filichia's PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL FRANCHISES, on page 159, has this (minus one "n") for New Castle, PA: _New Castle Quakers (aka Yanigans, 1899)_ Inter-State League, 1896-1900; charter franchise. Disbanded with league after 1900 season. _New Castle Yanigans_ Alternate name for NEW CASTLE QUAKERS, 1896-1900. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- "CHARLEY HORSE" AND "TEXAS LEAGUE" CITATIONS The NEW YORK WORLD 9 September 1906 article on "Charley Horse" found by Gerald Cohen (COMMENTS ON ETYMOLOGY, May 1993 and February 1994) was reprinted in full in SPORTING LIFE, 20 October 1906, pg. 13, col. 3. The "Texas Leaguers" article that Dickson describes as "an unidentified news clipping of April 2, 1906 (on file at the Hall of Fame)" is from SPORTING LIFE, 21 April 1906, pg. 2, col. 4. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- DOUBLE SQUEEZE Dickson has "squeeze play" from 1907's DICK MERRIWELL'S MAGNETISM. This is from SPORTING LIFE, 11 May 1907, pg. 1, cols. 2-3: THE "DOUBLE-SQUEEZE" Is the Latest Alleged Play in Ball Which Elberfeld and CHase, of the Yankees, Are Said to Have Invented. From New York comes a tale of a new play invented by Elberfeld and Chase, of the New York Americans. It is called the "double squeeze," and is thus described: The "double-squeeze" play invented by Chase and Elberfeld, is even more spectacular than its sensational precedessor (sic). They tried the new play in the game of April 20, and but for the fact that Elberfeld stumbled and fell on the base line both men would have scored on the out. Imagine what ball players 20 years ago would have said if such a play had been even suggested! For one runner to score on an infield out is hard enough, but for two to do so seems physically impossible. They are going to do it this summer, just the same. When the play was introduced Elberfeld was on second and Chase was pacing up and down at third. Williams, who was at bat, got a signal for the "squeeze" play, and he very accurately bunted toward third. Elberfeld had the signal to start from second with the pitcher's swing. By the time the ball was pitched Chase was within 10 feet of the plate and Elberfeld had shot past third like a deer. Of course, Chase scored. Elberfeld stumbled when he was half way and fell, or he would certainly have crossed the plate, while Collins threw out Williams. Even at that he got to his feet quickly enough to get back to third and be safe. It was a daring attempt, and it is a play which requires daring men to execute. It is very rare that the "squeeze" play is tried when there are runners on both third and second. It is usually attempted when one man is on the bases and only one run is needed. When two mean are on bases it is usual to wait for a hit or long fly. The "double squeeze," but for the accident to Elberfeld, would have done practically the same work as a single--scored two runs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- "DOCTORED" BASEBALLS Dickson doesn't have a date for this. "Doctor" is an old term. This is probably not the first baseball use, but SPORTING LIFE, 20 October 1906, pg. 16, col. 3, has the headline "'DOCTORED' BALLS." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- BARNSTORMER Perhaps, as A. G. Spalding once wrote, baseball's first barnstormers were the Brooklyn Excelsiors of 1860, who played in central and western New York State. This is from SPORTING LIFE, 6 October 1906, pg. 9, col. 4: THE PIONEER BARNSTORMER. Alleged New Scheme of Much- Traveled Veteran Manager, Frank Bancroft. By Charles Dryden. The pioneer base ball barnstormer of the United States is said to be Frank Bancroft, the polite and efficient person who counts the money the Reds take in on the road. As far back as 1879 Bancroft invaded Cuba at the head of a performing herd of athletes. Since then Frank has barnstormed in many and various directions. He has a new scheme for this Fall, and it listens like a winner. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- HIT-AND-RUN This is from the SPORTING LIFE, 29 April 1905, pg. 2, col. 2: Old Browning an Originator. Lave Cross gives a new version to the origin of the hit-and-run game. He says: "Pete Browning was the originator of the hit-and-run game. He was hard of hearing, and one day he couldn't hear the coaches after getting to first on a hit, and started for second on the first ball pitched. He ran like a wilcat (sic) and got to third on a single. Pete would not have got past second had he not misunderstood the signals, or if he could have heard the coacher. As it was, when he started off on his mad run he got to third safely, and would have been on the way home if he hadn't been held by the man coaching on third. That play of Browning's suggested the hit-and-run game. Hugh Jennings heard of it, and the system was introduced in Baltimore and worked with great success." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- LAMPS This is from SPORTING LIFE, 16 September 1905, pg. 3, cols. 3-4: "PETE" BROWNING DEAD. A One-Time Nationally Famous Player, Noted For His Hitting, Passes Away--Record of His Long Career. Louis Roger Browning, a star in base ball from 1882 to 1893, and known in his day to every base ball lover as "Line 'em out Pete," also as "The Old Gladiator," died at the City Hospital in Louisville, Ky. (Long description follows, but no hit-and-run--ed.) Browning, more than any other man, probably, was responsible for the expression of "lamps" as a substitute for eyes. Pete was always talking about his "lamps" and about their condition as indicated by his batting. Going to the grounds he invariably smoked a cigarette, inhaling the fumes and blowing them out through his nostrils. "It's good for the lamps," he declared to his fellow players. The RHHDAS has earlier "lamps," but its use for a baseball hitter could be noted. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:08:40 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Dilbert (U.S. Navy cartoons, 1943) As stated in "Dilbert for WOTY," the RHHDAS has "dilbert" from 1944, and defines it as "esp. _Navy_, a fool." Dilbert sounds a lot like Murphy. See this book: DILBERT: JUST AN ACCIDENT LOOKING FOR A PLACE TO HAPPEN! by Lt. Robert C. Osborn, USNR Coward-McCann, Inc., New York 1943 (the following is on the copyright page--ed.) These drawings as well as some six hundred others in this series have been prepared by the Training Division of the Bureau of Aeronautics, Navy Department, for the purpose of driving home lessons of difficulties encountered not only by student pilots but even by qualified aviators. Since all pilots throughout the years have stumbled upon the same difficulties, it is reasonable to believe that there is a little bit of Dilbert in all flyers, whether they be Army, Navy or civilian. The drawings herein are the work of Lieutenant Robert C. Osborn, USNR. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 09:47:07 EST From: CLAndrus CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Fwd: long time no hear This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_885134827_boundary Content-ID: 0_885134827[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII sorry, folks, to put something so totally off the charts, but I thought you all might enjoy this wonderful language play. Please tell me if this isn't acceptable. CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com. --part0_885134827_boundary Content-ID: 0_885134827[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.2 Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: ollieandmands[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]compuserve.com Received: from relay25.mail.aol.com (relay25.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.25]) by air06.mail.aol.com (v37.8) with SMTP; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:26:56 -0500 Received: from hil-img-5.compuserve.com (hil-img-5.compuserve.com [149.174.177.135]) by relay25.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with ESMTP id IAA19696 for clandrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:26:56 -0500 (EST) Received: (from mailgate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]localhost) by hil-img-5.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.10) id IAA14339 for clandrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com; Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:26:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 08:26:19 -0500 From: oliver cunliffe ollieandmands[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]compuserve.com Subject: long time no hear Sender: oliver cunliffe ollieandmands[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]compuserve.com To: "INTERNET:cAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com" clandrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com Message-ID: 199801180826_MC2-2FBC-DE78[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]compuserve.com Content-Disposition: inline Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable dear carol =0Asorry we haven't been in touch, i haven't been able to find= time to sit=0Adown recently. anyway happy new year, i hear the holiday w= as fantastic. we=0Aare looking forward to coming over one day to see how = the other half=0Alive!!!=0A=0Ahave you heard about the recent japanese ba= nking crisis:=0Athe bonsai bank has had to cut a hundred branches=0Athe k= arate bank got the chop=0Athe origame bank folded=0Athe kamikazi bank nos= e dived=0Asomething fishy is going on at the sushi bank=0Aand the sumo ba= nk went belly up.=0A=0Aspreak soon, lots of love=0Aollie=0A --part0_885134827_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 11:42:45 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: An etymological coup? I note that Clinton was deposed yesterday. Does that make Gore President? Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 12:52:19 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: Baseball "Bugs" (an entomology) This makes me wonder if the title of the classic 1940's vintage Bugs Bunny cartoon "Baseball Bugs" is a pun on the old term. Would the animators remember a slang term in vogue in 1906? Did the term survive into the 20's or later, by any chance? And how nice to see a newspaper reference to Harry Steinfeldt, the answer to one of the chestnuts of baseball trivia questions! Alan B. Bapopik wrote: (This baseball bug "entomology" is presented as a lexical honor to 1997's WOTY, "millennium bug." More bugs, perhaps, to follow.) Ren Mulford, Jr.--the same sportswriter who popularized the baseball "fan"--also, twenty years later, popularized the baseball "bug." Mulford was based in Cincinnati (the Red Stockings were baseball's first "professional" team in 1869) and wrote for its local newspapers and for SPORTING LIFE for almost forty years (about 1883 to 1920). He's not in the Baseball Hall of Fame because he died before the Hall was created, and much before sportswriters began to be honored (there is now a separate sportswriters' award, but dead people don't have much of a lobby). Recognition for his contributions to baseball's language is certainly long overdue. Lack of recognition for a pioneer of American sportswriting embarrasses the sportwriters' award itself. The RHHDAS has a sporting "bug" from 1908. Paul Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY has it from 10 May 1907. 13 January 1906, SPORTING LIFE, pg. 7, col. 1. A headline is "Some Tales Told at the Fan Club." No bugs yet. 27 January 1906, SPORTING LIFE, pg. 10, col. 1. A headline is "TALES FOR FANS." Still no bugs. 3 March 1906, SPORTING LIFE, pg. 7, col. 1. The headline is "BUCKEYE BUGS/ PLAY BASE BALL ON WASHINGTON'S BIRTHDAY." The story begins "Cincinnati, O., February 24.--Buckeye base hits of the crop of 1906--amateur caliber--were made during an abnormally warm January afternoon, but on Washington's Birthday the first game of the comparatively new year was played in the Bottoms by teams of youngsters. (...) The Reds have always gone South earlier and returned home later than any other team, but nobody has seen any champion flag floating over the Western avenue green in consequenceof the extraordinary length of the periods of practice. As a matter of fact, these "prep trips" are largely valuable along one line. They are the swellest sort of "advertising campaign" and are worth every dollar that is spent on them. When the robins begin to warble the "Bugs" find their appetite for dope insatiable. They "eat" everything that is set before them with an avidity that would be lost if the dishes were all "home cooking." 7 April 1906, SPORTING LIFE, pg. 13, col. 2. "This weather is enough to frappe the enthusiasm of the Society of 32d Degree Bugs, but they are all sufficiently thawed out to send a message of cheer to Maryland." 19 May 1906, SPORTING LIFE, pg. 13, col. 1. "Up Chicago way the Bugs are feeling very gay over the turn of Fortune's wheel, which spilled Harry Steinfeldt into the West Side net." 2 June 1906, SPORTING LIFE, pg. 13, col. 1. The headline is "REDS' CLIMB SONG/ CINCINNATI BUGS SIT UP AND NOTICE THINGS." 6 October 1906, SPORTING LIFE, pg. 2, col. 1. The headline is "THE OLD RED SONG/ ONCE MORE THE BUGS CHANT OF 'NEXT YEAR.'" It begins: "Cincinnati, Sept. 29.--Editor--"Sporting Life."--In another week those Redbird of ours will crawl into their hole for the winter. Nothing, however, that Jack Frost has to offer in the shape of frost, ice or snow can keep them from chirping hopefully "The Song of Next Year." It has been heard often, but there's music in it that soothes the Bugs. No one has the hardihood to put in any Red claim for glory in 1907. Fantown is still dazed over the way Hope curled up this season. 26 January 1907, SPORTING LIFE, pg. 10, col. 1. The headline is "A BUG CLUB TALE." There are many other citations, but not of interest. Mulford used both "fan" and "bug" in 1906. I don't have an early citation of this that's close to the first "bug," but he would often call the team the "Redbugs." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 14:13:32 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: "shake and bake" (=explosives) Paul Dickson's _War Slang_ presents "shake and bake" as a verb: "to employ a mixture of weapons in an attack." The expression arose during the Gulf War. But he does not mention the noun "shake and bake" in the meanng "explosives." I found this usage in the _St Louis Post-Dispatch_ , Dec. 24, 1997, sec. A, p.6/4. The article (which starts on p.1) concerns the Oklahoma bomber, Tim McVeigh, who had fought in the Gulf War, and the relevant paragraph for us refers to the wife of McVeigh's friend, Terry Nichols: 'She also recalled that Nichols received a cryptic letter from McVeigh the weekend before the bombing, in which McVeigh referred to "shake and bake," a military term for explosives.' I assume that "shake and bake" refers to bombs that destroy via their explosive force ("shake") and to incendiary bombs ("bake"). Incendiary bombs were use in World War 2. Were they also used in the Gulf War? --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Jan 1998 19:44:23 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Nothing Doing; Goat I forgot to post two more antedates. Sorry. Please don't make to much of the headline. I have no romantic interest in goats. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- NOTHING DOING Both the RHHDAS and Christine Ammer's DICTIONARY OF IDIOMS give the OEDS 1910 citation for "nothing doing." This is from SPORTING LIFE, 14 October 1905, pg. 17, col. 3: "NOTHING DOING" ---------------------------- AT THE NATIONAL BOARD'S CIN- CINNATI MEETING. ---------------------------- Owing to the Absence of Witnesses In the Griffith Case the Hearing Is Put Over to October 14, When It will Go on in New York City. On 9 December 1905, pg. 14, col. 1, SPORTING LIFE ran a "SOMETHING DOING" headline. "Nothing doing" and "something doing" were also present in various stories at this time, both referring to these league meetings. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- GOAT David Shulman found an early baseball "goat" (scapegoat) from the 1880s. "Goat" was also a player's nickname. The RHHDAS has that it is "A Weshman--used derisively." A 1922 quote (referring to 1885?) has "A Frenchman is a 'frog,' a negro a 'coon' and a Welchman a 'goat.'" This is from SPORTING LIFE, 4 May 1907, (can't read page), col. 4: "It's easy to guess how Anderson is named 'Goat,'" remarked Ed Ballinger, the local paragrapher. "He hails from the Indiana coal country. Scores of Welshmen live out that way. To some people every man from Wales is styled a 'goat.'" ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Jan 1998 to 18 Jan 1998 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 18 Jan 1998 to 19 Jan 1998 There are 13 messages totalling 348 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "shake and bake" (=explosives) 2. New York vowels (2) 3. Bugs & Koons 4. english novels 5. signoff 6. C-SPAN & Metcalf (3) 7. Diversity (2) 8. Happy tenth anniversary, 2000! (fwd) 9. "on the level" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 00:16:24 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: "shake and bake" (=explosives) Paul Dickson's _War Slang_ presents "shake and bake" as a verb: "to employ a mixture of weapons in an attack." The expression arose during the Gulf War. ............... I assume that "shake and bake" refers to bombs that destroy via their explosive force ("shake") and to incendiary bombs ("bake"). Incendiary bombs were use in World War 2. Were they also used in the Gulf War? --Gerald Cohen My uninformed, off-the-top-of-my-head assumption would be that it refers to buying separate ingredients (fertilizer, diesel fuel) and mixing them up and then inserting detonators. The run like hell. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 01:42:31 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: New York vowels This is a new discovery in New York vowels? Are the people in this article ADS members?? This is from today's New York Post, 19 January 1998, pg. 36, col. 1: (Photo caption) There's nothing wrong with New York's accent, say linguists Marie Huffman (right) and Elyse Tomberino, Huffman's assistant. A pronounced benefit for us Metro Gnome By Gersh Kuntzman NOW there's even more scientific evidence that Lawn Guylanders and Noo Yawkas talk better than the rest of the country. We have more vowels! A linguistics professor at SUNY Stony Brook (yes, it's on the island, but let's cut her some slack) has discovered that we add an extra vowel sound into simple one-syllable words like "fad" or "bad." "New Yorkers have all these extra vowels," discovered professor Marie Huffman. "You have a lot to be proud of." Tell that to H. L. Mencken. He once described New Yorkese as "vulgar." He obviously never heard Midwesterners pronounce "merry," "Mary" and "marry" as the same word. Linguists have long marveled at how New Yorkers add extra sounds--called back vowels--into words like "talk" or "dog," which we pronounce "tawahk" and "dawahg." In the so-called Standard American English, those words are pronounced with a single vowel sound, "ah" (as in "tahk") and "aw" (as in "dawg"). Linguists think New Yorkers add extra sounds because we talk so damn fast that our tongues are flying all over our mouths. We start forming the second sound before we're even done with the first (sort of linguistic bus-bunching). But Huffman's great discovery--which againconfirms our linguistic superiority--was that we also add something call (sic) _frontal_ vowels. That the reason we hail a "cahuhb" while our fellow Americans hop in a cab. Or we cry and get "sahuhd" while the rest of the country just gets "sad." Try it out for yourself: Say "pat" and "pad" or "fat" and "fad." The rest of the country pronounces the vowels in each pair the same way. New Yorkers add that extra frontal vowel in the second word of each pair. "It's quite exotic and beautiful," marveled Huffman, who previously studied Japanese vowels. "Unlike New Yorkers, they have so few vowels," she said sahuhdly. Huffman, 37, presented her findings--"Spectral Change in the Vowel Formant Space of Long Island Vowels"--to the Acoustical Society of America last month in San Diego. Shockwaves quickly hit the New York linguistic community. "She's right on target," said George Jochnowitz, a linguistic professor at the College of Staten Island. "The same thing occurs because we tend to drop the letter 'r' from words like 'landlord' so that it becomes 'landlahud.' There's that back-vowel schwa glide." Whatever you call it, it's cause for celebration. And worry. Unless proper respect is paid to our uniquely colorful language, for example, there's a risk that the next generation of voice-recognition machines may not be able to understand New Yorkers. Huffman has seen that from the other side. In fact, she only started her research because her Long Island students were troubled by the "standard English" pronunciations in their textbook, a phonetics bible published in vowel-less middle America. "It's the most widely used textbook and they couldn't relate to it," Huffman said. (We gotta ask her about this--ed.) In a world of deteriorating values, declining standards and decaying integrity, we clearly need to take a stand to defend our extra vowels. So get out there and start tawahking. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 06:09:24 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Bugs & Koons This citation of "Koons" is one of our earliest illustrating this derogatory term for African-Americans. "Dandy bugs" (continuing my entomologies) is also of interest. It's from the MICROSCOPE (available on American Periodical Series), New Albany, Indiana, vol. 1, no. 41, 5 February 1825, pg. 3, col. 2: FOR THE MICROSCOPE. Dear Tim--Our Jess went to town the other day, & bought a Gawky Cap, and when he came home the dogs barked at him. Mamma, she run out to see, and cried out to me, "why Polly, here comes a 'Koon on horse-back." I went in haste to see the wonder, and behold it was only Jess. A smart argument commenced between Mamma and Jess, about wearing the _Cap_. Jess said, that the dandy Bugs wore them in town, & he had a right to wear any thing worn by them: whilst Mamma declared that none of her children should disguise themselves, so as to be taken for Koons--she did not care what kind of _bugs_ wore them, even if they were _tumble-bugs_; none should be worn about her house,--In the midst of the dispute, father came in, and being informed of the particulars, he put the cap on the head of black Tom, and cooly observed, "that no one who layed claim to the principle of a white man, would be catched with such a thing on his head." POLLY TELLALL ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 11:44:13 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: New York vowels Interesting posting from Barry Popik. A journalist reporting on a presentation to the Acoustical Society of America!!?? Well,.... The University of Missouri boasts of the first (true) and best (I really don't know) school of journalism in the world. MU J-students systematically avoid both linguistics and cliches like the plague. So the Metro Gnome who wrote the cutsie NYPost piece on New Yawk vowels is in good company. I'm not even mildly tempted to comment on most of the piece, but one item piqued my curiosity. Or should I say peaked or peeked? Linguists have long marveled at how New Yorkers add extra sounds--called back vowels--into words like "talk" or "dog," which we pronounce "tawahk" and "dawahg." In the so-called Standard American English, those words are pronounced with a single vowel sound, "ah" (as in "tahk") and "aw" (as in "dawg"). Being an unrepentant speaker of a version of South Midland American, I've often wondered whether people who "tahk" (considered "standard" by Metro Gnome) also tick. An examination of 'talk' and 'dog' in PEAS is an interesting exercise. I don't think I'll suggest that Metro Gnome waste any of his (Gersh Kuntzman, I assume is a male name) valuabe time or synaptic energy by looking into a few "facts," but a good exercise for linguistics students is an examination of the entire set of low back vowels as they vary throughout the Atlantic States. PEAS = The Pronunciation of English in the Atlantic States, by Hans Kurath and Raven I. McDavid, University of Michigan Press, 1961. Does "marveled" accurately characterize what Bill Labov has been doing for more than a generation, apparently with little notice taken by gnomish practitioners of journalistic cutsieness? DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:10:12 -0500 From: "Frank R. Abate" abatef[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: english novels Ed How about A Clockwork Orange? Frank ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 13:09:07 -0500 From: Lee translee[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WEBTV.NET Subject: signoff Hi! I subscribed by mistake and now I can't get off the list. The signoff command is not working. can anyone help me please? Thanks, Lee dillon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:35:10 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: C-SPAN & Metcalf If you didn't catch C-SPAN Book Notes last night, you missed a really good program. Allan Metcalf was a little nervous, but his performance was exceptionally good, I thought (no bias here, of course). The program will be repeated a couple of times this week. Check the schedules in your area. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:05:49 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Diversity And what did you have for desert in Palm Dessert? Just kidding! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 12:59:20 -0800 From: Keith Chambless keith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUENEPTUNE.COM Subject: Re: Diversity And what did you have for desert in Palm Dessert? Just kidding! Dates! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 15:58:01 EST From: Davidhwaet Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: C-SPAN & Metcalf C-SPAN's website can be found at www.c-span.org/booknotes.htm I thought Allan's performance was splendid, and I plan to use a portion of it in the classroom. David R. Carlson 34 Spaulding St. Amherst MA 01002 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 16:14:25 -0500 From: Anita Puckett apuckett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VT.EDU Subject: Re: C-SPAN & Metcalf C-SPAN's website can be found at www.c-span.org/booknotes.htm I thought Allan's performance was splendid, and I plan to use a portion of it in the classroom. Same here. Thanks to ADS and Allan. Anita Puckett Appalchian Studies Program Center for Interdisciplinary Studies 343 Lane Hall Virginia Tech Blacksburg, VA 24061-0227 Office: 540/231-9526 Fax: 540/231-7013 apuckett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 19:16:36 -0600 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: Happy tenth anniversary, 2000! (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: 20 Jan 1998 00:52:05 GMT From: Keith Lynch kfl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]clark.net Newsgroups: rec.arts.sf.written Subject: Happy tenth anniversary, 2000! The first ever mention of the year 2000 problem (i.e. that lots of software will break that year) that I've been able to find was mailed to the RISKS Digest by Jeffrey R Kell JEFF%UTCVM.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU ten years ago today, January 19th, 1988. It appeared in RISKS DIGEST 6.11 on January 22nd, 1988. I maintain a list of when various now common terms and concepts first appeared on the net, e.g. web pages, spam, Pentium, Netscape, Windows, MIME, anon servers, the year 2000 problem, and, of course, the SF-LOVERS e-mail discussion list (September 1979). It's at http://www.clark.net/pub/kfl/timeline.html But what about the year 2000 itself? When was it first explicitly mentioned, anywhere, in any context? The earliest I'm aware of is Edward Bellamy's utopian novel _Looking Backward_, published in 1888. Maybe I should have said happy 110th anniversary? Or does anyone know of a still older reference? Thanks. -- Keith Lynch, kfl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]clark.net http://www.clark.net/pub/kfl/ I boycott all spammers. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Jan 1998 20:26:10 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: "on the level" The discussion about the origin of "to level the playing field" leads me to the expression "on the level" (=honest, straightforward). RHHDAS has this expression going back to 1872. But what was the original imagery here? When someone said "He's on the level" what level was being referred to? --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Jan 1998 to 19 Jan 1998 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 19 Jan 1998 to 20 Jan 1998 There are 4 messages totalling 96 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. RE Re: C-SPAN & Metcalf 2. RE Re: New York vowels 3. "shake and bake" (=explosives) 4. unsubscribe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:27:03 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Re: C-SPAN & Metcalf The C-Span link is a little screwy right now, but try http://www.c-span.org/mmedia/booknote/bn0118.htm Grant Barrett -------------------------------------- Date: 1/19/98 4:22 PM To: Grant Barrett From: Anita Puckett C-SPAN's website can be found at www.c-span.org/booknotes.htm I thought Allan's performance was splendid, and I plan to use a portion of it in the classroom. Same here. Thanks to ADS and Allan. Anita Puckett Appalchian Studies Program Center for Interdisciplinary Studies 343 Lane Hall Virginia Tech Blacksburg, VA 24061-0227 Office: 540/231-9526 Fax: 540/231-7013 apuckett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vt.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 19:17:51 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Re: New York vowels From: Donald M. Lance The University of Missouri boasts of the first (true) and best (I really don't know) school of journalism in the world. MU J-students systematically avoid both linguistics and cliches like the plague. So the Metro Gnome who wrote the cutsie NYPost piece on New Yawk vowels is in good company. That's sarcasm, right, Donald? As a former University of Missouri-Columbia journalism student, I feel confident in saying that MU journalism students love cliches and other worn writing devices like they love their mothers. Things always "spark" in headlines (I'm waiting for the headline "Satan Sparks Armageddon"). "Debates are always "raised." Durn near every story has the word "issue", "debate" or "controversy" in it, as if readers needed to be cued into the multiple sides to the issue. No MU journalism student ever met a third-person story he or she wouldn't rather write in the first person. My favorite thing they do in the University of Missouri-Columbia journalism school is convince each crop of 20 some-odd year-olds that they have anything to say the rest of the world would care one whit to read. Naturally, the kids buy into this, because they are certain they would make a good columnist, a great columnist, and if Andy Rooney can measure shrinkage in canned coffee on national television, then they can write about the common trauma they had when their alarm clocks broke and they were late for class. There are various caveats that lead me to these points of view, but I'll just close by saying: I stopped being a small-time journalist a few years ago because I didn't like the company I was keeping. Now I go to the track and hang out on the docks and sleep a little better at night. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com Not sarcastic, just emotionally resourceful ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 22:15:46 -0500 From: Steve Harper sharper[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FOTO.INFI.NET Subject: Re: "shake and bake" (=explosives) At 14:13 1/18/98 -0500, Gerald Cohen said: Paul Dickson's _War Slang_ presents "shake and bake" as a verb: "to employ a mixture of weapons in an attack." The expression arose during the Gulf War. I first heard the term in the Viet Nam era. The Army was very short on noncommissioned officers and developed a program to take promising enlisted candidates directly from basic or advanced individual training, send them to school for a relatively short period of time (four weeks? six weeks? I'm not sure.), and make them sergeants. They were always referred to as "shake and bake" NCOs. In twenty years in the Army I never heard the term used as Dickson mentions, but I retired in '86, well before the Gulf War. Steve Harper Fayettevlle, NC ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Jan 1998 23:30:05 EST From: Lolipop894 Lolipop894[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: unsubscribe lolipop894 unsubscribe ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Jan 1998 to 20 Jan 1998 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 20 Jan 1998 to 21 Jan 1998 There are 13 messages totalling 609 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. On the Level; On the Beam (2) 2. folk tale, "1, 2, 3" (8) 3. bong letter 4. German word of the year 5. German word of the year - REPLY ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 00:34:47 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: On the Level; On the Beam Perhaps "on the level" is related to "on the beam"--a seafaring term. If a ship's not "on the level" it's a titanic disaster. --Barry Popik (seriously rethinking his upcoming trip to Guatemala) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:45:41 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: On the Level; On the Beam Might it not rather (or also) refer to the carpenter's level? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:32:23 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: folk tale, "1, 2, 3" Not on topic, (apologies all) but I thought that some of you here might know this--- there's a folk tale, situated variously in areas where pogroms occurred. In the tale, the provincial governor, or ruler, or even village chief, tells the local jewish population that one of them will have to debate him, or vie with him, and if the jewish representative loses,s/he'll be killed and everyone else driven out. No one wants to be the debater, and finally an illiterate, lowly sweeper or laborer or cowherd (e is selected. The cowherd and the village chief meet in the village square, and sit face to face, silently for a long time. At last, the cowherd hold up one finger. The village chief looks startled, then holds up two fingers. After a while, the cowherd holds up three fingers. The village chief announces that the cowherd has won and everyone can stay. Later, each gives a different interpretation of what the other meant. Larry Horn, where you der, charley? Anyone? Anyone know this? thanks beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:48:44 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: folk tale, "1, 2, 3" Greg D. comment below. At 06:32 PM 1/21/98 EST, you wrote: Not on topic, (apologies all) but I thought that some of you here might know this--- there's a folk tale, situated variously in areas where pogroms occurred. In the tale, the provincial governor, or ruler, or even village chief, tells the local jewish population that one of them will have to debate him, or vie with him, and if the jewish representative loses,s/he'll be killed and everyone else driven out. No one wants to be the debater, and finally an illiterate, lowly sweeper or laborer or cowherd (e is selected. The cowherd and the village chief meet in the village square, and sit face to face, silently for a long time. At last, the cowherd hold up one finger. The village chief looks startled, then holds up two fingers. After a while, the cowherd holds up three fingers. The village chief announces that the cowherd has won and everyone can stay. Later, each gives a different interpretation of what the other meant. Larry Horn, where you der, charley? Anyone? Anyone know this? thanks beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu This is a bit of folklore that has been around for some time, and with the advent of cut-and-paste-capable email, it travels even more than it used to. The most recent time I saw this story was when one of my students emailed it to me in Oct. 1997. I found it easily by searching for the letter sequence "three fingers" in my fall-of-97 email box. Here it is in full with the ending ( = puchline), in the version I was sent in Oct. 1997 anyway: |Religious Sign Language |About a century or two ago, the Pope decided that all the Jews had to |leave the Vatican. Naturally there was a big uproar from the Jewish |community. So the Pope made a deal. He would have a religious debate |with a member of the Jewish community; if the Jew won, the Jews could |stay; if the Pope won, the Jews would leave. | |The Jews realised that they had no choice. So they picked a middle-aged |man named Moishe to represent them. Moishe asked for one addition to the |debate. To make it more interesting, neither side would be allowed to |talk. The pope agreed. | |The day of the great debate came. Moishe and the Pope sat opposite each |other for a full minute before the Pope raised his hand and showed three |fingers. Moishe looked back at him and raised one finger. The Pope waved |his fingers in a circle around his head. Moishe pointed to the ground |where he sat. The Pope pulled out a wafer and a glass of wine. Moishe |pulled out an apple. The Pope stood up and said, "I give up. This man is |too good. The Jews can stay." | |An hour later, the cardinals were all around the Pope asking him what |happened. The Pope said: "First I held up three fingers to represent the |Trinity. He responded by holding up one finger to remind me that there |was still one God common to both our religions. Then I waved my finger |around me to show him that God was all around us. He responded by |pointing to the ground and showing that god was also right here with us. |I pulled out the wine and the wafer to show that god absolves us from |our sins. He pulled out an apple to remind me of original sin. He had an |answer for everything! What could I do?" | |Meanwhile, the Jewish community had crowded around Moishe. "What |happened?" they asked. "Well," said Moishe, "First he said to me that |the Jews had three days to get out of here. I told him that not one of |us was leaving. Then he told me that this whole city would be cleared of |Jews. I let him know that we were staying right here." "And then?" asked |a woman. "I don't know," said Moishe. "He took out his lunch and I took |out mine." Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 19:00:32 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: folk tale, "1, 2, 3" simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU wrote: Not on topic, (apologies all) but I thought that some of you here might know this--- there's a folk tale, situated variously in areas where pogroms occurred. In the tale, the provincial governor, or ruler, or even village chief, tells the local jewish population that one of them will have to debate him, or vie with him, and if the jewish representative loses,s/he'll be killed and everyone else driven out. No one wants to be the debater, and finally an illiterate, lowly sweeper or laborer or cowherd (e is selected. The cowherd and the village chief meet in the village square, and sit face to face, silently for a long time. At last, the cowherd hold up one finger. The village chief looks startled, then holds up two fingers. After a while, the cowherd holds up three fingers. The village chief announces that the cowherd has won and everyone can stay. Later, each gives a different interpretation of what the other meant. Larry Horn, where you der, charley? Anyone? Anyone know this? I was told this story as a joke, not a traditional folktale, but the setting was the medieval Rome during the Plague, and the disputants were the Pope and the head Rabbi. The punchline, however, is decidedly modern and, as told to me, very unfolklorish. Now I actually use the joke in my Intro to Linguistics class when we discuss semiotics. I couldn't tell from your message whether you are missing the outcome of the story or just wanted to know if others had heard the joke. If the former, I can oblige. Alan B. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 19:47:21 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: folk tale, "1, 2, 3" At 07:00 PM 1/21/98 -0500, you (baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vax.vmi.edu) wrote: I was told this story as a joke, not a traditional folktale, but the setting was the medieval Rome during the Plague, and the disputants were the Pope and the head Rabbi. The punchline, however, is decidedly modern and, as told to me, very unfolklorish. Now I actually use the joke in my Intro to Linguistics class when we discuss semiotics. I'm not sure of the sense in which Beth Simon used "folklore" in her original post, but I meant it in the sense of modern/urban folklore, without necessarily making any claims about antiquity. Where's the US dialect facet, though? Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:00:27 EST From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: bong letter Here's a message of inquiry. If you have an answer, please be sure to send it to the address given at the end, since the questioner isn't on ADS-L. Thanks - Allan Metcalf ---------- As a student at the University of Illinois ('82 to '86), I became familiar with the term "bong letter" -- a letter a student would receive from a company saying "thanks for the interview or resume, but we aren't hiring you." The term was widely used, and I believe one bar even held a "bong letter night," discounting drinks for every rejection letter a student brought in. When I graduated, I moved to Springfield to work with the legislature. I was assigned to write a "thanks-but-no-thanks" letter to send to persons who applied for work with the House Republican staff. When I said, "You mean a bong letter," my boss reacted with surprise, saying she had never heard the term. Since then, I have performed an extremely informal survey. While the term is unfamiliar to many, there are many others who recognize it. The term was used on other Illinois campuses and at least one in Iowa. (I don't know if it was or is used at MacMurray.) I have never pinned down the area of its use. I'm even more puzzled about its origins. It's not in DARE, and I've never spotted it in any slang dictionary. I'm familiar with the the term "bong" for a marijuana pipe (from a Thai word for pipe), but I don't see how that connects to a rejection letter. I've also heard a theory that it comes from "gong" as in "The Gong Show," but, again, I find that explanation less than convincing. This has been rolling around in my head for 12 years! I would like very much to know the opinion of a professional student of the dialect on this matter. If you or anyone else in the ADS has any insight on this word, I would appreciate hearing it. Thanks very much for your time. If you or a colleague finds the question interesting, I would love to hear what light, if any, can be shed on the question. Brett A. McGill IlliniBam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:00:29 EST From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: German word of the year A friend, Martin Dickey, sends me this. I too don't understand it completely and hope someone on ADS-L will undertake a perfect translation. - Allan Metcalf -------------- (from German News 1/20/98) I don't understand it completely. - "Wohlstandsmuell" Unwort des Jahres Frankfurt. Das Wort "Wohlstandsmuell" als Umschreibung von Arbeitsunwilligen, Arbeitsunfaehigen oder sogar kranken Menschen ist das Unwort des Jahres 1997. Die Wortschoepfung geht auf Nestle-Chef Maucher (sp?) zurueck, wie der Sprecher der Jury, der Germanistikprofessor Schlosser in Frankfurt mitteilte. Mit "Wohlstandsmuell" sei ein Gipfel in der zynischen Bewertung von Menschen ausschliesslich nach ihrem Marktwert erreicht. Geruegt wurden unter anderem auch die Begriffe Organspende und Blockadepolitik. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 20:37:25 -0500 From: Laurence Horn laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: folk tale, "1, 2, 3" At 6:32 PM -0500 1/21/98, simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU wrote: Not on topic, (apologies all) but I thought that some of you here might know this--- there's a folk tale, situated variously in areas where pogroms occurred. In the tale, the provincial governor, or ruler, or even village chief, tells the local jewish population that one of them will have to debate him, or vie with him, and if the jewish representative loses,s/he'll be killed and everyone else driven out. No one wants to be the debater, and finally an illiterate, lowly sweeper or laborer or cowherd (e is selected. The cowherd and the village chief meet in the village square, and sit face to face, silently for a long time. At last, the cowherd hold up one finger. The village chief looks startled, then holds up two fingers. After a while, the cowherd holds up three fingers. The village chief announces that the cowherd has won and everyone can stay. Later, each gives a different interpretation of what the other meant. Larry Horn, where you der, charley? Anyone? Anyone know this? thanks beth simon Oops, too late. Greg Downing beat me to the punch (a nice expression, that, by the way--is the allusion to boxing or to the Hindi-derived erstwhile five-ingrediented libation?). The version I know is the same, complete with the combatants being Pope vs. Moishe (or equivalent shmendrik) rather than Pope vs. Chief Rabbi. Semiotic value essentially the same as Greg gives it, and the provenance for me, I blush to admit given my heritage, was also friendly spam. More charming, anyway, than the nth incarnation of the Neiman Marcus cookie recipe... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:17:24 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: folk tale, "1, 2, 3" At 08:37 PM 1/21/98 -0500, you wrote: More charming, anyway, than the nth incarnation of the Neiman Marcus cookie recipe... Which (since you mention it...) I just got this evening again. I also got the "join the crew" virus warning three times in the past two weeks. And twice this week I got the FCC per-minute internet-charge warning, which was legitimate a year ago but not now. There were arguments on three different lists I'm on beween veterans and rookies about posting these things. When are they going to reach a saturation point? It's kind of a verbal cloning thing, I guess, but my hard drive is fairly large, so I will survive.... But if I could get rid of only spam, or only recycled internet folklore, but not both, I know what I'd pick given the volume of each I get! I guess the thing is that new people are coming online all the time, and these things don't always get distributed thoroughly when they first appear.... Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 21:59:41 -0500 From: "William H. Smith" wh5mith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATL.MINDSPRING.COM Subject: Re: folk tale, "1, 2, 3" At 06:32 PM 1/21/98 EST, you wrote: Not on topic, (apologies all) but I thought that some of you here might know this--- there's a folk tale, situated variously in areas where pogroms occurred. In the tale, the provincial governor, or ruler, or even village chief, tells the local jewish population that one of them will have to debate him, or vie with him, and if the jewish representative loses,s/he'll be killed and everyone else driven out. No one wants to be the debater, and finally an illiterate, lowly sweeper or laborer or cowherd (e is selected. The cowherd and the village chief meet in the village square, and sit face to face, silently for a long time. At last, the cowherd hold up one finger. The village chief looks startled, then holds up two fingers. After a while, the cowherd holds up three fingers. The village chief announces that the cowherd has won and everyone can stay. Later, each gives a different interpretation of what the other meant. Larry Horn, where you der, charley? Anyone? Anyone know this? thanks beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu The version I heard involved the Pope and the chief rabbi or Rome. The Pope has been told that he has to get the jews out of Rome, but he insists on a test first. The Pope holds up one finger, and the rabbi responds with two. The Pope then takes a bite from an apple, and the rabbi takes a bite from a bagel. The Pope's interpretation is this: One finger = "There is one God." Two fingers = "And two more just like him." The apple = original sin. The bagel = man's continuing sin. The rabbi's interpretation is this: One finger = "I'll poke your eyes out." Two fingers = "I'll poke both your eyes out." The apple and bagel = "I should starve while he eats?" Bill Smith Piedmont College ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 22:53:15 -0600 From: Samuel Jones smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: German word of the year - REPLY PLEASE SEE AFTER YOUR INQUIRY -=20 A friend, Martin Dickey, sends me this. I too don't understand it completely and hope someone on ADS-L will undertake a perfect translation. - Allan Metcalf -------------- (from German News 1/20/98) I don't understand it completely. - "Wohlstandsmuell" Unwort des Jahres Frankfurt. Das Wort "Wohlstandsmuell" als Umschreibung von Arbeitsunwilligen, Arbeitsunfaehigen oder sogar kranken Menschen ist das Unwort des Jahres 1997. Die Wortschoepfung geht auf Nestle-Chef Maucher (sp?) zurueck, wie der Sprecher der Jury, der Germanistikprofessor Schlosser in Frankfurt mitteilte. Mit "Wohlstandsmuell" sei ein Gipfel in der zynischen Bewertung von Menschen ausschliesslich nach ihrem Marktwert erreicht. Geruegt wurden unter anderem auch die Begriffe Organspende und Blockadepolitik. _____________________________________________________________ fontfamily param Geneva /param bigger REPLY: Saw your posting. Hope this may help. =46irst, a quick translation of the item from the German News of 20 January 1998: [ Frankfurt. The word "Wohlstandsmuell," as an oblique reference [circumscription or paraphrasing] to 'people unwilling to work, people unfit or unable to work' or even 'sick people,' is the 1997 Unword of the Year . The word's creation is attributed to Nestl=E9 CEO [Helmut] Maucher [Head offices of Nestl=E9 are in Vevey, Switzerland], as the foreman of the jury, Germanistics professor Schlosser, informed us in =46rankfurt. With "Wohlstandsmuell," a peak in the cynical evaluation of humans/people, exclusively according to their market value, has been reached. Also criticized were, among others, the expressions "Organspende" [the selling of body organs for transplant] and "Blockadepolitik." [What the USA is doing to Iraq and Cuba at the moment - "blockade politics".] ____________________________________________________________________ And for whatever further assistance my comments may offer: "Wohlstand" =3D "prosperity, affluence, good economic times" "Muell" =3D "trash, rubbish, garbage" As is so often the case, nouns in German readily combine to form other words. In this instance, the word "Wohlstandsmuell" is produced. The idea or concept of "Wohlstandsmuell," and no doubt its usage, has in fact been around for sometime now and in use in a very productive, affluent, upbeat, "throwaway" German society, which is patterned to no small extent after the USA. The earlier meaning of the word actually made reference to the kind and nature of rubbish, trash, or garbage thrown away, discarded, or jettisoned by underline well-heeled /underline (maybe also underline well-healed /underline from WWII ?), underline well-living /underline , underline well-to-do /underline West Germans. =20 What the German News report seems to signal is a rather dramatic change in or a broadening of the meaning of "Wohlstandsmuell,": lending it a more particular or specialized (and somewhat bitter and degrading) meaning, so as to encompass "throw-away people" in a very productive, affluent, upbeat, throw-away German society, "throw-away people" to include the "Arbeitsunwilligen" (those people who do not wish to and are unwilling to work), and the "Arbeitsunfaehigen" (those people who are unable to work, or who are unfit for or unfit to work - i.e., "kranken Menschen" =3D "sick people." [unfitness for work, inability to work, non-viability]. smjones /bigger /fontfamily _______________________________ DR. SAMUEL M. JONES =20 Professor Emertitus Music & Latin American Studies =20 University of Wisconsin-Madison =20 "Pen-y-Bryn" - 122 Shepard Terrace Madison, WI 53705-3614 USA _______________________________ =20 EMAIL: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu _______________________________ =20 TELEPHONE: 608 + 233-2150 =20 _______________________________ =20 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 23:49:21 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: folk tale, "1, 2, 3" Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: At 07:00 PM 1/21/98 -0500, you (baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vax.vmi.edu) wrote: I was told this story as a joke, not a traditional folktale, but the setting was the medieval Rome during the Plague, and the disputants were the Pope and the head Rabbi. The punchline, however, is decidedly modern and, as told to me, very unfolklorish. Now I actually use the joke in my Intro to Linguistics class when we discuss semiotics. I'm not sure of the sense in which Beth Simon used "folklore" in her original post, but I meant it in the sense of modern/urban folklore, without necessarily making any claims about antiquity. Where's the US dialect facet, though? Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu I heard this joke before the Internet existed (I think), back in 1984 or 85, and it tells even better than it reads because the gestures and intonation, especially as it was told to me by a Jewish law student, who knew something about comic timing as well as disputation, are part of the humor. In "my" version, the Rabbi suggests a sign language debate, not to make it more interesting, but to "level the playing field"--the Pope is used to disputation in Latin and the Chief Rabbi is used to disputation in Hebrew, so neither has a linguistic advantage with signing. The progression of signs is different in this version. First comes the Pope making a rainbow motion and the Rabbi pointing to the ground. Then the three fingers answered by one. Finally, of course, the chalice and Host answered with the apple. The "US dialect facet" comes in the Rabbi's speech and intonations (as he and the joke teller repeat the all the gestures): "Well, first he said [rainbow motion] 'All you Jews, get outta town.' And I said [pointing downward] 'Ve're staying right here.' Then he said [three fingers] 'You got three days,' and I said [one finger pointed upward] 'Ve're not moving one inch,' and then ve broke for lunch." It's the final phrase that is urban US and funny, partly because it's incongruous in the medieval setting and makes the medieval Chief Rabbi sound like Myron Cohen or Jackie Mason. Also, it must be said with shrugging of shoulders. There are still some things that e-mail isn't good for. Alan ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Jan 1998 to 21 Jan 1998 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 21 Jan 1998 to 22 Jan 1998 There are 11 messages totalling 405 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. folk tale, "1, 2, 3" 2. No subject given (2) 3. quote source (2) 4. On the Level; On the Beam 5. Baseball "Bugs" (an entomology) (2) 6. some simple -- I hope questions (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:11:15 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: folk tale, "1, 2, 3" This story is probably far older than any of us. There is a version in the _Treasure of Jewish Folklore_ that my grandfather had on his shelf and is now on mine at home. I will try to remember to look it up tonight. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 14:36:05 EST From: Michael Montgomery N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VM.SC.EDU Subject: No subject given A student has raised a question about English grammar that I am not sure I can answer: why does _fiche_, which certainly seems to be a count noun, have a zero plural? That is: one fiche, fifteen fiche, etc. I do not see that the noun is a reduction from a phrase such as "xx page(s) of (micro)fiche." Another student puckishly suggested that _fiche_ so behaves because of its closeness in pronunciation to _fish_. Additions to the language are not supposed to have zero plurals, are they? Michael Montgomery Dept of English Univ of South Carolina Columbia SC 29208 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 15:09:59 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: No subject given At 02:36 PM 1/22/98 EST, Michael Montgomery wrote: A student has raised a question about English grammar that I am not sure I can answer: why does _fiche_, which certainly seems to be a count noun, have a zero plural? That is: one fiche, fifteen fiche, etc. I do not see that the noun is a reduction from a phrase such as "xx page(s) of (micro)fiche." Another student puckishly suggested that _fiche_ so behaves because of its closeness in pronunciation to _fish_. Additions to the language are not supposed to have zero plurals, are they? Michael Montgomery Dept of English Univ of South Carolina Columbia SC 29208 In fact, American Heritage Dictionary does give "microfiches" as a secondary plural form. So the question is why the preference for the zero plural in common usage, as well as in the dictionary. Could it have something to do with influence by the phonetics of the original French? The plural final s wouldn't be pronounced in French, and the English word maintains a French quality in both the i and ch . If we Anglicized the French plural and pronounced the s , would the final [z] in "fiches" make us want to Anglicize the plural form of the word to sound like "fitch" (short central i and affricate ch --wish I could do IPA in e-mail), so to maintain the "base" pronunciation on the French model, we just use a zero plural? Is that all too convoluted? Is Ockham spinning in his grave? Is it just because "fiche" seems so amorphous that we just don't think of the individual sheets. Even if I check individual sheets of microfiche, I say "I'm checking the microfiche" in a singular sense, the same way I say (or used to say) "I'm checking the card catalogue." Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vax.vmi.edu You know, years ago, my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this world, Elwood, you must be . . ."--she always called me 'Elwood'--"In this world, Elwood, you must be oh, so smart or oh, so pleasant." Well, for years I was smart. I recommend pleasant. And you may quote me. Elwood P. Dowd ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 16:12:07 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU Subject: quote source if you squeeze your brain real hard, this might be a dialect question, but here goes: can someone tell me who said (shaw? twain?) the following: however eloquently a dog may bark, he cannot tell you that his parents were poor but honest. if you know where s/he said it, that'd be nice to know too. and if my quotation is inaccurate, please let me know. i couldn't believe that no one in my department (nor any of their quotation books) could help me on this one--i've heard it so often! thanks in advance, lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 17:38:22 -0500 From: Denis Anson danson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MISERI.EDU Subject: Re: On the Level; On the Beam On Wednesday, January 21, 1998 12:35 AM, Bapopik [SMTP:Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM] wrote: Perhaps "on the level" is related to "on the beam"--a seafaring term. If a ship's not "on the level" it's a titanic disaster. --Barry Popik (seriously rethinking his upcoming trip to Guatemala) More properly, on the beam means directly to the right or left (port or starboard) as opposed to off the bow or the stern. Few sailing ships, however, were ever on the level. When under sail, the ship would heal over to the leeward side, and might have one rail almost in the water, with the other in the air. Another nautical term that is familiar to many is being "pooped." The poop deck of a ship was the raised portion in the rear. As a ship moves through the water, there is a displacement wave that runs along the hull, and limits how fast a ship can go. If the ship pushes too hard, the displacement wave is actually break over the poop deck, bringing the ship to a halt (and nearly washing away the man at the wheel). This was called getting pooped. So, if you work really hard, and really fast, then crash to a stop, you are "pooped." Denis Anson, MS, OTR/L Assistant Professor Occupational Therapy Department College Misericordia 301 Lake Street Dallas, PA 18636 phone: 717-674-6413 fax: 717-674-8902 Author of: Alternative Computer Access: Making Appropriate Selections from FA Davis ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 19:51:00 -0500 From: Laurence Horn laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Baseball "Bugs" (an entomology) At 12:52 PM -0500 1/18/98, Alan Baragona wrote: This makes me wonder if the title of the classic 1940's vintage Bugs Bunny cartoon "Baseball Bugs" is a pun on the old term. Would the animators remember a slang term in vogue in 1906? Did the term survive into the 20's or later, by any chance? And how nice to see a newspaper reference to Harry Steinfeldt, the answer to one of the chestnuts of baseball trivia questions! Alan B. I thought of that last point too. For the uninitated (or the partially initiated), the trivia question would have been something like "Who was the obscure third baseman who played in the famous Tinker-to-Evers-to-Chance Chicago Cubs infield immortalized by Franklin P. Adams in that poem about bursting the Giants' gonfalon bubble?" Poor Steinfeldt--he didn't fit the meter and so never made into the Hall of Fame Barry visited, while Tinker, Evers, and Chance were elected largely on the strength of their appearance in the poem. ob dialectology: How come nobody talks about gonfalon bubbles anymore? And (on a somewhat irrelevant topic) where does the word "padiddle" (for a one-headlight-only car) originate? Larry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 20:10:48 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: quote source At 04:12 PM 1/22/98 +0000, you (M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]baylor.edu) wrote: "However eloquently a dog may bark, he cannot tell you that his parents were poor but honest." if you know where s/he said it, that'd be nice to know too. and if my quotation is inaccurate, please let me know. Don't know if this helps but "poor but honest" has its own subentry in OED2, at poor a., meaning 1e, where citations are given back as early as Smollett's _Roderick Random_ (1748). One cite is from Twain, _Innocents Abroad_, 1869 ed., Chap. 21, p. 211: `He was the son of--' `Poor but honest parents--that is all right--never mind the particulars--go on with the legend.' No dog involved. BUT there are two cites, not under "poor," of the following sentence from the anonymous _Life and Adventures of a Cat_ (1760), Chap. 4: "Tom the Cat is born of poor but honest parents." (See OED2 ca, and tom-cat; OED2 implies that this passage may be a tributary to or source of the eventual collocation "tom[-]cat".) I wonder if Twain, or wherever else the "dog/poor-&-honest parents" quote comes from, thought the idea up because of its status as a later-18C and 19C cliche that had already been applied to a cat???? Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 21:40:07 -0600 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: some simple -- I hope questions I realize that most of you are probably tired of explaining this kind of thing at the beginning of every school year. If you have time to answer, please don't be shy about recommending your own writings. From a writing list I'm on. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 01:14:40 -0600 From: SHARON L REDDY ROLAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]prodigy.net To: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com Cc: FANTASY[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHAOSMANOR.COM Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Character Naming Spinner http://www.Talespinner.net Paradox Equation now available from Hyper Books http://www.hyperbooks.com -----Original Message----- From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com To: SHARON L REDDY ROLAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]prodigy.net Cc: FANTASY[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHAOSMANOR.COM FANTASY[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHAOSMANOR.COM Date: 21 January 1998 14:48 Subject: Re: [DISCUSSION] Character Naming No. Mythical. Wrong. There was a vote on _whether to translate some Federal documents into German_. And the United States _does not have an official national language_. I've been told things in history and American Government texts were wrong before so this doesn't really surprise me. Influence from other languages shows up mostly in vocabulary. Local dialects within regions may be heavily influenced by other languages, though this tends to fade after a while. This one you're going to have to prove. The PhD in speech therapy who gave me the information while helping me enunciate more clearly did her doctoral thesis on it. I'm not talking about words in the language or patterns of speech. It's the physical shaping of the sound of which I'm speaking. If those differences disappear, why is there a southern drawl and an Ozark twang. Ths country was _not_ settled primarily by English speaking peoples. The languages of those peoples can be heard in the formation of words by the peoples of the regions today. Spinner http://www.Talespinner.net Paradox Equation now available from Hyper Books http://www.hyperbooks.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:54:19 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Re: some simple -- I hope questions I'm not quite sure what the questions are. Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Dep't of English/Chair, Ling. Prog. 301/1117 McClung Tower University of Tennessee Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 USA 423-974-6965, 423-974-6926 (FAX) EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu Editor, Language in the Judicial Process: http://ljp.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 23:12:05 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Baseball "Bugs" (an entomology) At 12:52 PM -0500 1/18/98, Alan Baragona wrote: This makes me wonder if the title of the classic 1940's vintage Bugs Bunny cartoon "Baseball Bugs" is a pun on the old term. Would the animators remember a slang term in vogue in 1906? Did the term survive into the 20's or later, by any chance? The director on that cartoon short was Isadore (Friz) Freleng -- the model for Yosemite Sam according to Michael Maltese, see below. He was living in Kansas City when Disney hired him in 1927 (or perhaps shortly before). Freleng was born in 1906, though I don't know if he was born or grew up in Kansas City, or not. Anyway, I believe Barry Popik mentioned several midwestern cities (Cin., Chic.?) in discussing the development of "baseball bug" during 1906. (But see also the British Columbia 1911 cite mentioned below.) The story credit for the cartoon in question goes, as usual in Warner cartoons of the period, to Michael Maltese, whose birthdate and residence in youth I don't know. In movies, even cartoon ones, directors get better documented than writers; what else is new? In any case, any bit of any cartoon could be contributed by any number of folks in the cartoon studio, regardless of screen credit. "Baseball Bugs" is dated Feb. 1946 in the paperwork, and 1945 on the on-screen title. Many Warner cartoon shorts of the era build a pun into the name. "Baseball Bugs" would have two meanings if "bugs" in the title also meant fans. OED2 bug n.2, meaning 3a = anyone obsessed with anything, often with a qualifying word (firebug, litterbug, jitterbug); earliest cite is 1841 "tariff bug." There's also a 1911 "baseball bugs" from the Victoria (B.C) _Daily Colonist_. So it had gotten that far by 1911. Perhaps see also OED bug n.1 (ghost, haunting spirit, bogy), which though quite likely etymologically unrelated -- it's from Welsh, and bug n.2's etymology is unknown -- may nonetheless have had some influence on the semantic development of bug = insect = obsessed person. (Remember the ADS-L discussion last fall of folk etymology, pro and con? This is an example of the kind of folk-etymological, quite likely historically inaccurate belief, resulting from similarity of sound and meaning, that with persistence and the the passage of time eventually becomes in some cases part of the history of the language....) Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 22:18:42 -0600 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: Re: some simple -- I hope questions On Thu, 22 Jan 1998, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: I'm not quite sure what the questions are. Roughly: the other person says that the sounds of American regional dialects are mostly influenced by the languages of non-Anglophone immigrants. (I'll requote the relevant part of what she says below.) My position is that this is not accurate. Is she correct, am I correct, or are we both partially correct? I'm not talking about words in the language or patterns of speech. It's the physical shaping of the sound of which I'm speaking. If those differences disappear, why is there a southern drawl and an Ozark twang. Ths country was _not_ settled primarily by English speaking peoples. The languages of those peoples can be heard in the formation of words by the peoples of the regions today. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Jan 1998 to 22 Jan 1998 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 22 Jan 1998 to 23 Jan 1998 There are 18 messages totalling 640 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Question 2. Sexgate words (3) 3. Wall Street Words (revisited) (2) 4. (Fwd) Re: Host Opportunities for US Institutions 5. quote source (3) 6. quote source (re eloquent but inarticulate barking) 7. query re _want + (participle) use (2) 8. On the beam (2) 9. to O.J., -gate terms 10. Almost about dialect (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 02:12:10 -0500 From: Michael Price COO[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SMEI.ORG Subject: Question My name is Michael Price. I just viewed your site and would like to formally request that you add www.sell.org as a hyperlinked resource. The www.sell.org site was funded by Sales & Marketing Executives (SME), the worldwide association of sales and marketing management. It contains over 8,500 useful articles on sales and marketing, a knowledgebase, and many other useful resources free to sales and marketing practitioners, researchers, and students. I hope that you find this site useful. Please do not hesitate to call me directly should you have any questions at 770-661-8500 or by fax at 770-661-8512. Thank you. - Michael Price ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:11:59 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Sexgate words Today's New York Post (Friday, 1-23-98) is going with "Sexgate." Why not "Secsgate"? "Gates o' Subornin'"? "Fripp-around"? "Return of DEEP THROAT and THE DEVIL AND MISS JONES." "'Rule of Three' Strikes Again! Third Political Death on 'Skis.'" CLINTON: "There is no improper sexual relationship." TRANSLATION: I gave her up for another bimbo hours ago! Lewinsky was of legal age! And I didn't even bite her! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 05:13:59 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Wall Street Words (revisited) When the New York Public Library's Science, Industry & Business Library (SIBL) opened about a year ago, I had no desire to read every book in the place. In fact, I was perfectly happy to AVOID every book in the place--many of the books are jargon-filled snoozers. I've talked to several people about a WALL STREET DICTIONARY (a dictionary of American business based on historical principles), and they all think it's a good idea. Previous business terms discussed here include "Greenspan Effect," "irrational exurberance," "glass ceiling," "Super Bowl Index," "January Effect," "dead-cat bounce," "Dilbert," "moolah," "In God We Trust," "O. K." (described as a Wall Street term in 1839, and in constant business use since), "lame duck," "corner," "Black Friday/Blue Monday"--there have been a few. The dictionary I want to do will have all the words of American business--slang and standard, current and historical. From Washington Irving's "almighty dollar" to Oliver Stone's "greed is good" to "bulls" to "bears" to "cats" to "dogs" to "Asian tigers" to "origin of the dollar mark" to "technical analysis" and "P-E ratio." Everything. My interest started with the stock market drop at the end of October, when a former broker used the term "dead cat bounce." Then I said again, seriously, it might be time to buy, to which the former broker replied, again using slang: "Never catch a falling knife!" How many of these did she have?? I surveyed Barnes & Noble, the McGraw-Hill Professional Bookstore, and the Strand used books this week, and here's what's out there: WALL STREET WORDS by David L. Scott (1988, 1997 revised edition)--This is the revised edition? "Bull" and "bear" are on an equal footing with "dead cat bounce"--you'd never know the latter is a new slang term and the former ir almost 300 years old. No "Greenspan Effect" or "glass ceiling." Reads like a list that's available free on the internet. WALL STREET WORDS by Richard Marturi (1996)--An inferior WALL STREET WORDS. These Wall Street types can't even think of a new title?? RANDOM HOUSE WEBSTER'S POCKET BUSINESS DICTIONARY (second edition 1997)--Thankfully, Jesse Sheidlower's name is not on this. Has "dead cat bounce," but no "January Efect," no "Super Bowl Index," no "Greenspan Effect," no "Asian tiger," and no "cats and dogs." Only $6.99, though. DICTIONARY OF FINANCE AND INVESTMENT TERMS (Baron's, 1995)--Barron's has a number of these dictionaries, including a DICTIONARY OF BANKING TERMSand a DICTIONARY OF ACCOUNTING TERMS. This explains over 5,000 terms. It has "dead cat bounce" and "cats and dogs" and "January Effect" and even "Super Bowl Indicator." At 682 pages and $11.95, the best of its type. No "greed is good" or "Greenspan." (Not updated since 1995.) A good start for the bones of an historical dictionary. A DICTIONARY OF BUSINESS (Oxford paperback reference, 1996)--No one seems to have written this. Oxford is expanding this series and also has an Economics Dictionary. Has "dead cat bounce," but no "cats and dogs." Surprisingly, no "January Effect." At 538 pages and $14.95, it's inferior to Baron's, but still provides good bones for a better dictionary. THE ENCYCLOPEDIC DICTIONARY OF BUSINESS TERMS by Mary A. DeVries (Berkley paperback, 1997)--Looks like it might be good for some secretaries. A compilation of stuff ("definitions from 32 fields"), none very impressive. Only $6.99 for 498 pages, though. THE INTERNATIONAL BUSINESS DICTIONARY AND REFERENCE by Lewis A. Presner (Wiley, 1991)--Overprices hardcover at $49.95 for 486 pages. Only book of this type that has a bibliography! It appears to be international, all right, but it doesn't seem to work for any country. Probably didn't sell at all. WALL STREET SLANG: HIGH STEPPERS, FALLEN ANGELS, & LOLLIPOPS by Kathleen Odean (Dodd Mead, 1988)--Out of print, but two copies are left at the Strand for $9. I checked the Library of Congress, and this is the ONLY book on Wall Street Slang!! It's 10 years old, and doesn't have "dead cat bounce" or "Greenspan Effect." The lack of "kiting" is surprising, but otherwise a nice job. No illustrations. It has a few "Napoleons"--I have items about the origin of "Napoleon of Finance." Updated and combined with Barron's, it's a start for a real dictionary. I went to NYU; NYU is in New York City and has a School of Business that is well funded by Robert Tisch. A crosscheck of Bobcat with the NYPL and RLIN catalogs shows that it's missing about half of the books it should have. (HIGH STEPPERS, for example.) And there aren't that many. That's about it for available financial word books in the Business Capital of the World. Is there room for another? I might be missing something, but check OEDS for "junk bonds." (Personal note--I'm leaving for the weekend and can't reply immediately.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 07:37:37 -0500 From: Fred Shapiro fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Wall Street Words (revisited) On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Bapopik wrote: I might be missing something, but check OEDS for "junk bonds." Barry, it's great to have you back on the list, but I hope you're not backsliding into OED/RHHDAS-bashing. Are you criticizing a volume of the OEDS that was published in 1976 and presumably edited a few years before that for not including a term that originated in the mid-1970s? Note that _junk bond_ is included in volume 3 of the OED Additions Series. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1998 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:03:50 -0500 From: Larry Horn laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Sexgate words Today's New York Post (Friday, 1-23-98) is going with "Sexgate." I think a better alternative, both because of its intonational contour and its somewhat more creative semantics, is... ZIPPERGATE (courtesy of the Toronto Sun, according to a third-generation e-mailing I just received). Productive morphology marches on! --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:10:39 -0400 From: Denise Cormaney dcormane[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IREX.ORG Subject: (Fwd) Re: Host Opportunities for US Institutions HOST OPPORTUNITIES FOR US INSTITUTIONS THE FREEDOM SUPPORT ACT FELLOWHIPS IN CONTEMPORARY ISSUES OR THE REGIONAL SCHOLAR EXCHANGE PROGRAM DESCRIPTION: Three or six-month research grants to specialists with advanced degrees, pre-doctoral and post-doctoral scholars from the NIS (emphasis will be on junior faculty) for research at institutions and organizations in the United States. *Funding for these programs is provided by the United States Information Agency* FIELDS: Freedom Support Act Fellowships in Contemporary Issues: -Sustainable Growth and Development of NIS Economies in Transition -Democratization, Human Rights and Rule of Law -Political, Military, Security and Public Policy Issues -Strengthening Civil Society -Communications Revolution and Access to Information Regional Scholar Exchange Program: 25 fields in the social sciences and humanities, with focus on the twentieth century. Most NIS participants will be junior faculty and those at the early stages of their career. GRANT PROVISIONS FOR FELLOWS: -Housing, stipend, medical insurance, and research allowance. -Round-trip transportation to and from placement city in the United States INSTITUTIONAL ELIGIBILITY: Interested institutions should: -Be located in the United States -Provide a research advisor willing to meet with the fellow and guide his/her research -Provide access to computer, e-mail, the Internet, available libraries and archives, and, where possible, office space. *US institutions wishing to host fellows may obtain the host application form directly from the IREX website at http://www/irex/org/grants/intl/hostops.htm. Deadline for Contemproary Issues host applications is February 2, 1998. Deadline for Regional Scholar Exchange Program host applications is April 2, 1998. For more information about these programs, please contact Program Officers Denise Cormaney (dcormane[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]irex.org) or Kristine Kassekert (kkasseke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]irex.org) at 202-628-8188 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 12:26:44 EST From: GarethB2 GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Sexgate words In a message dated 1/23/98 5:14:39 PM, laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU wrote: Today's New York Post (Friday, 1-23-98) is going with "Sexgate." I think a better alternative, both because of its intonational contour and its somewhat more creative semantics, is... ZIPPERGATE (courtesy of the Toronto Sun, according to a third-generation e-mailing I just received). Productive morphology marches on! Bill Maher used "Zippergate" on Politically Incorrect last night. -------------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Co-author _Happy Mutant Handbook_ , _Internet Power Toolkit_ Author, _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:28:25 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: quote source Another cliche from 18th or 19th century fiction is of course "It was a dark and stormy night"--but I've forgotten the author. Anyone? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 13:36:46 -0500 From: Fred Shapiro fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: quote source Bartlett's has the following: It was a dark and stormy night. Edward Bulwer-Lytton, _Paul Clifford_ (1840), opening words ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1998 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:07:41 -0500 From: Larry Horn laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: quote source (re eloquent but inarticulate barking) Since no one else has posted in response to the question, I'll trot out what I found in Nexis (which supports one of the three sources I'd have guessed): The Houston Chronicle February 10, 1995, Friday, 2 STAR Edition SECTION: HOUSTON; Ann Hodges; Pg. 6 HEADLINE: 2 PBS series expand the mind BYLINE: ANN HODGES, Houston Chronicle TV Critic; Staff BODY: ... both words and body language. In the end, syntax is us. ""However eloquently your dog may bark, he can't tell you that his father was poor but honest,'' as Bertrand Russell said. (no specifics given as to where Russell said it) Larry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 14:18:05 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: query re _want + (participle) use Dear ADS-L members: For an article on constructions with elliptical _want + participle_ (e.g. the car wants washed, the car wants washing, the car doesn't want washed; the infant wants diapered, the infant doesn't want diapered), my colleague Tom and Murray and I would like to hear from anyone who uses such a construction or is in an area where such a construction is in use. In continuation of our work on elliptical need + p.p. (see Murray, Frazer, Simon, _American Speech_ winter, 1996), we would also like to hear from anyone familiar with negative need + past participle (e.g. the car doesn't need washed, the dogs don't need fed). Please contact me at simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu or simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipfw.edu Thanks, Beth Simon Assistant Professor, Linguistics and English Indiana University Purdue University simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 11:34:09 -0800 From: Jack Sidnell jsidnell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCLA.EDU Subject: Re: query re _want + (participle) use I haven't read your analysis in American Speech but in some varieties the construction is probably not elliptical. In Guyanese Creole you get di wiil waan ail the wheel wants oil "The wheel needs (to be oiled)(oil)." ii pant waan rob his pants want rub "His pants need to be washed." The desiderative sense of "want" is suspended with inanimate subjects. With animate subjects such constructions are ambiguous. Thus: di piknii waan sliip the child wants sleep "The child wants to sleep." "The child needs to sleep." The senses can be disambiguated by fu. di piknii waan fu sliip The child wants to sleep "The child wants to sleep." Fu is not acceptable with the nonanimate subjects *di wiil waan fu ail *di pant waan fu rob Hope this helps Jack Sidnell UCLA At 02:18 PM 1/23/98 EST, you wrote: Dear ADS-L members: For an article on constructions with elliptical _want + participle_ (e.g. the car wants washed, the car wants washing, the car doesn't want washed; the infant wants diapered, the infant doesn't want diapered), my colleague Tom and Murray and I would like to hear from anyone who uses such a construction or is in an area where such a construction is in use. In continuation of our work on elliptical need + p.p. (see Murray, Frazer, Simon, _American Speech_ winter, 1996), we would also like to hear from anyone familiar with negative need + past participle (e.g. the car doesn't need washed, the dogs don't need fed). Please contact me at simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu or simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipfw.edu Thanks, Beth Simon Assistant Professor, Linguistics and English Indiana University Purdue University simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:22:37 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: On the beam Denis Anson danson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MISERI.EDU writes On Wednesday, January 21, 1998 12:35 AM, Bapopik [SMTP:Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM] wrote: Perhaps "on the level" is related to "on the beam"--a seafaring term. If a ship's not "on the level" it's a titanic disaster. More properly, on the beam means directly to the right or left (port or starboard) as opposed to off the bow or the stern. Few sailing ships, however, were ever on the level. When under sail, the ship would heal over to the leeward side, and might have one rail almost in the water, with the other in the air. The _American Heritage Dict. of the Eng. Lang._, 3rd edn., says: 1. Following a radio beam. Used of aircraft. 2. On the right track; operating correctly. The origin in #1 is more in accord with the general usage (#2) than the nautical origin is. Besides, isn't that usually "on the port beam" or "on the starboard beam"? BTW, isn't it also "heel over", not (for ships) "heal over"? -- Dr. Whom: Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:40:38 -0500 From: Denis Anson danson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MISERI.EDU Subject: Re: On the beam On Friday, January 23, 1998 3:23 PM, Mark Mandel [SMTP:Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM] wrote: Denis Anson danson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MISERI.EDU writes On Wednesday, January 21, 1998 12:35 AM, Bapopik [SMTP:Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM] wrote: Perhaps "on the level" is related to "on the beam"--a seafaring term. If a ship's not "on the level" it's a titanic disaster. More properly, on the beam means directly to the right or left (port or starboard) as opposed to off the bow or the stern. Few sailing ships, however, were ever on the level. When under sail, the ship would heal over to the leeward side, and might have one rail almost in the water, with the other in the air. The _American Heritage Dict. of the Eng. Lang._, 3rd edn., says: 1. Following a radio beam. Used of aircraft. 2. On the right track; operating correctly. The origin in #1 is more in accord with the general usage (#2) than the nautical origin is. Besides, isn't that usually "on the port beam" or "on the starboard beam"? BTW, isn't it also "heel over", not (for ships) "heal over"? -- Dr. Whom: Consulting Linguist, Grammarian, Orthoepist, and Philological Busybody a.k.a. Mark A. Mandel Quite right on the spelling. I'm not a good speller. The first meaning is, of course, of much later origin. Actually, that version of being "on the beam" originated in W.W.II. Arthur Clarke wrote a book, "Glide Path," about the development of radar landing systems in W.W.II which talks about being on the path, or on the beam when landing in foggy weather. Denis Anson, MS, OTR/L Assistant Professor Occupational Therapy Department College Misericordia 301 Lake Street Dallas, PA 18636 phone: 717-674-6413 fax: 717-674-8902 Author of: Alternative Computer Access: Making Appropriate Selections from FA Davis ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:57:17 -0500 From: jerry miller millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU Subject: Re: quote source Beverly: Before Snoopy established it as a 20th century cliche, the line was the opening line of the novel "Paul Clifford" by Sir Edward George Earl Bulwer-Lytton (the rest of the sentence was even worse), published in 1830 and which the Bulwer-Lytton Bad Writing Contest annually commemorates. Jerry Miller Franklin (Ind.) College At 01:28 PM 1/23/98 -0500, you wrote: Another cliche from 18th or 19th century fiction is of course "It was a dark and stormy night"--but I've forgotten the author. Anyone? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 15:04:16 -0600 From: Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.CNS.IIT.EDU Subject: to O.J., -gate terms A couple of news talk announcers on WGN radio's Spike O'Dell show (Spike is one of them) are at this moment saying things like "I'm not O.J.-ing this (latest Clinton) thing." "I didn't O.J. it either." Some other -gate terms I've heard today to add to Zipper-gate: Swingin'-gate, Carter had Billy-gate, Clinton has "Li'l Billy-gate," Forni-gate, and Tail-gate. Greg ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 16:55:51 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Almost about dialect I have noticed that many 20-something females (my daughter included) have a voice that lodges high in the throat, producing a grating, nasal-sounding tone. In other generations the voice comes from around the clavical, trained voices lower still. Is the location of vocalization a part of dialect? Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 19:52:51 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: Almost about dialect Duane, Only in alien physiology, of course. I had an MA candidate once who was a singer; he did a nice (but only exploratory) study of the anatomically silly instructions singing teachers gave theer studentrs (such as pointing to the forehead and asking a singer to 'place' the voice there). The interesting fact is, of course, not just that these instructions a physiologically silly but that they are effective in achieving appropriate modifications to voice prized by singers (and actors, and speakers). What a nice constrastive study between physiological phonetic reality and a 'applied phonetics' this would make! dInIs I have noticed that many 20-something females (my daughter included) have a voice that lodges high in the throat, producing a grating, nasal-sounding tone. In other generations the voice comes from around the clavical, trained voices lower still. Is the location of vocalization a part of dialect? Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Jan 1998 to 23 Jan 1998 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 23 Jan 1998 to 24 Jan 1998 There are 17 messages totalling 386 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. sexgate words (2) 2. query re _want + (participle) use 3. doppkit (10) 4. Sexgate words 5. Almost about dialect (2) 6. Survey help again ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 02:15:46 -0600 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: sexgate words "Tailgate" has shown up on Usenet. Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:27:11 -0500 From: Pat Courts courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AIT.FREDONIA.EDU Subject: Re: query re _want + (participle) use Simon, with regard to "want" + participle. I heard it often in Steubenville, OH. I'm pretty sure I've heard it here in Western NY, but I'll check that out to be sure. I also associate it with the usage of "needs" + participle (e.g. the shirt needs ironed). At 02:18 PM 1/23/98 EST, you wrote: Dear ADS-L members: For an article on constructions with elliptical _want + participle_ (e.g. the car wants washed, the car wants washing, the car doesn't want washed; the infant wants diapered, the infant doesn't want diapered), my colleague Tom and Murray and I would like to hear from anyone who uses such a construction or is in an area where such a construction is in use. In continuation of our work on elliptical need + p.p. (see Murray, Frazer, Simon, _American Speech_ winter, 1996), we would also like to hear from anyone familiar with negative need + past participle (e.g. the car doesn't need washed, the dogs don't need fed). Please contact me at simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu or simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ipfw.edu Thanks, Beth Simon Assistant Professor, Linguistics and English Indiana University Purdue University simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu Cheers, Pat Courts http://www.fredonia.edu/department/english/courts/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:50:06 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: doppkit Anyone ever hear of the word "doppkit" used for the shaving kits servicement used in WWII? Tom Murray has heard it from a 60ish colleague, but its not in DARE or anywhere else. Also: The elliptical construction with "like," e.g., "the dog likes petted." This is similar to "the car needs washed" or "the cat wants out," both well attested. Anyone heard of similar ellipses with "like"? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 10:52:30 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Sexgate words Why is this here? Partisan and not funny. Please, no Ken Starr wannabes on this list. On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Bapopik wrote: Today's New York Post (Friday, 1-23-98) is going with "Sexgate." Why not "Secsgate"? "Gates o' Subornin'"? "Fripp-around"? "Return of DEEP THROAT and THE DEVIL AND MISS JONES." "'Rule of Three' Strikes Again! Third Political Death on 'Skis.'" CLINTON: "There is no improper sexual relationship." TRANSLATION: I gave her up for another bimbo hours ago! Lewinsky was of legal age! And I didn't even bite her! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:02:37 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Almost about dialect That marked vocal quality is certainly a characteristic of female undergraduates here in Illinois. To me it sounds like the vocal cavity is kept continually tensed, so that it remains close and flat in shape, yielding a voice like the old Chipmunks recordings. It seems to be too that the rate of speech is faster than usual. Question: will they keep doing this throughout their lives? Other question: how long has this gone on? I've only noticed it in the last few years. And when does it start? Before college? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 11:55:56 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Re: doppkit On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Timothy C. Frazer wrote: Anyone ever hear of the word "doppkit" used for the shaving kits servicement used in WWII? Tom Murray has heard it from a 60ish colleague, but its not in DARE or anywhere else. I've heard "dop kit" for that all my life -- not limied to WWII shaving kits. Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:03:59 +0000 From: Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POP.INTERPORT.NET Subject: Re: doppkit Anyone ever hear of the word "doppkit" used for the shaving kits servicement used in WWII? Tom Murray has heard it from a 60ish colleague, but its not in DARE or anywhere else. I remember hearing my two older brothers use this term in reference to their faux-leather, zippered shaving kit bags in the mid-1960's. I had always presumed that it was a trademarked term. -- Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com Read City Slang in the Sunday New York Daily News! ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:39:44 EST From: GarethB2 GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: sexgate words In a message dated 1/24/98 8:25:58 AM, dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM wrote: "Tailgate" has shown up on Usenet. And it showed up in yesterday's Washington Post, along with "jailbait-gate." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 12:32:05 EST From: Jean Bernholtz Bernje[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: doppkit HTML FONT SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10 FAMILY="SANSSERIF" FACE="Tahoma" In a message dated 1/24/98 11:50:53 AM Eastern Standard Time, mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU writes: BR BR /FONT FONT SIZE=3 PTSIZE=10 Anyone ever hear of the word "doppkit" used for the shaving kits BR servicement used in WWII? Tom Murray has heard it from a 60ish colleague, BR BR Wasn't the manufacturer's name? /HTML ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 09:55:50 -0800 From: Arnold Zwicky zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSLI.STANFORD.EDU Subject: Re: doppkit tim frazer asks about "doppkit". (didn't this go by some years ago here?) i've used that term, and that term only, since my college days (and possibly earlier than that). the same for my partner jacques. (possibly relevant biographical facts: i got my bachelor's degree in '62, he go his in '64. i grew up outside of reading, pa., and went to college at princeton. he grew up in central ohio mostly [gambier, in particular], and went to college at haverford.) i believe that the name is derived from the name of a company - Dopp - that made such kits. arnold (zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csli.stanford.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 13:46:58 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: doppkit Both my parents used "doppkit" to describe the small bag of personal items my brother took to camp with him. beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 14:17:11 EST From: Timshaffer Timshaffer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: doppkit In a message dated 98-01-24 13:47:09 EST, simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU writes: Both my parents used "doppkit" to describe the small bag of personal items my brother took to camp with him. beth simon aka: "ditty bag" ts ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 16:26:08 -0500 From: Steve Harper sharper[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FOTO.INFI.NET Subject: Re: doppkit At 10:50 1/24/98 -0600, Timothy C. Frazer may (or may not) have said something like: Anyone ever hear of the word "doppkit" used for the shaving kits servicement used in WWII? Tom Murray has heard it from a 60ish colleague, but its not in DARE or anywhere else. I just ran upstairs and pulled from underneath the bathroom sink my zippered leather shaving kit. On the side is a metal label reading "DOPP". Regards, Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 17:38:39 -0500 From: sonja lanehart lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARCHES.UGA.EDU Subject: Survey help again We are about to pilot a survey on the attitudes and knowledge of pre-service teachers about language variation. What I need this time is for you to indicate if any of the sentences listed are plausible in any variety of AMERICAN English. If the sentence is plausible, please tell me which variety it is plausible in. If it is plausible in some other global variety of English, please tell which variety. Thanks for your help in advance. 1. He doesn't knows his wife's phone number. 2. Give me tens dollar. 3. He waiting for ten minutes before he left. 4. At least he knew you have a phone. 5. He likes a-hunting. 6. 'preach' rhymes with 'latch' 7. 'pen' rhymes with 'bun' 8. 'thick' is pronounced like 'sick' 9. 'thing' rhymes with 'bong' 10.'math' rhymes with 'cad' 11. I don't be eat that stuff. 12. I want coming with. 13. The principal in his office yesterday. 14. There are five kids in them family. 15. He done sell all that. ************************************************************************* Sonja L. Lanehart Department of English My office: (706) 542-2260 Park Hall ENG office/message: (706) 542-1261 University of Georgia Fax: (706) 542-2181 Athens, GA 30602-6205 E-mail: lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]arches.uga.edu ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 17:54:05 +0000 From: Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POP.INTERPORT.NET Subject: Re: doppkit I just ran upstairs and pulled from underneath the bathroom sink my zippered leather shaving kit. On the side is a metal label reading "DOPP". Cool. Now we just have to figure out what that's an acronym for. -- Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 15:49:25 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Almost about dialect The high tensed female voice is common here at OU too, but more prominently so in non-southern Ohioans, it seems to me. The pitch is high and the rate is so fast that often I cannot hear word segmentation and have to ask the speaker to slow down. Student announcers on the radio are among the worst (they've also never learned how to read aloud with anything like normal intonation and pausing). I associate the squeaky little-girl pitch with a desire to sound cute and "feminine" -- a backlash from a (perceived) masculinizing of women? Horrors. Beverly Flanigan Ohio University ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Jan 1998 23:11:01 -0500 From: Steve Harper sharper[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FOTO.INFI.NET Subject: Re: doppkit At 17:54 1/24/98 +0000, Evan Morris may (or may not) have said something like: I just ran upstairs and pulled from underneath the bathroom sink my zippered leather shaving kit. On the side is a metal label reading "DOPP". Cool. Now we just have to figure out what that's an acronym for. -- Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com But is it an acronym??? I've found two very different explanations of its possible origin: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Although I couldn't find an example of the phrase itself, it may, if it is indeed a British military term, have its origins in Hindi because of the British military's long involvement in India. The phrase MAY be a slang from the Hindi "dhob" meaning "washing" so the term might be "wash kit"-- See OED under "dhobi" from Hindi dho[macron]bi[macron] from dhob "washing", cf. Sanskrit dha[macron]v- The places to search might be in sources for Anglo-British jargon. I must emphasize that this is merely a GUESS! Allen Maberry maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I have also found two reference to a family named Dopelt who may have manufactured the "kits". Dopp, at last report, is a subsidiary of Buxton. Regards, Steve ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Jan 1998 to 24 Jan 1998 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 24 Jan 1998 to 25 Jan 1998 There are 10 messages totalling 493 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. doppkit (2) 2. Sexgate words 3. Survey help again 4. Survey help again--new participant 5. "legal jargon" the "ultimate dialect of scandal"? (Sheidlower & Shuyquoted) 6. syntactic blends (3) 7. Almost about dialect ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 00:04:29 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: doppkit At 11:11 PM 1/24/98, Steve Harper sharper[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FOTO.INFI.NET wrote: But is it an acronym??? I've found two very different explanations of its possible origin [clipped to save bandwidth] This probably has nothing to do with it, but just in case: OED dop v. = to dip, immerse, submerge. If it's a shaving kit.... But then again, I don't wish to add to the considerable amount of fanciful if clever etymologizing in the world.... Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 00:04:01 +0000 From: Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POP.INTERPORT.NET Subject: Re: doppkit At 17:54 1/24/98 +0000, Evan Morris may (or may not) have said something like: Cool. Now we just have to figure out what that's an acronym for. But is it an acronym??? I've found two very different explanations of its possible origin: snip I'm sorry. I was kidding about it being an acronym. I didn't mean to start a wild goose chase. -- Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 01:18:18 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Sexgate words If people are collecting these, some of the British tabs have already used "Naughtygate"; the sexual application of "naughty" is somewhat more common in UK English than in US English. Like Zippergate, this is meant to echo Watergate phonetically. I don't believe (is my memory letting me down?) anyone on this list has mentioned Monicagate, which I have also seen in the past couple of days. Some tabs have been using Sexgate for headlines because they can use bigger letters and still fit it in.... Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 02:21:08 PST From: coe coebb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DYNAMITE.COM.AU Subject: Re: Survey help again 1. He doesn't knows his wife's phone number - not Aust. English. 2. Give me tens dollar - not Aust. English. 3. He waiting for ten minutes before he left - not Aust. English. 4. At least he knew you have a phone - not Aust. English (although I have heard it said. I would say, "At least he knew you had a phone" or "At least he knows you have a phone"). 5. He likes a-hunting - not Aust. English. 6. 'preach' rhymes with 'latch' - not Aust. English 7. 'pen' rhymes with 'bun' - not Aust. English 8. 'thick' is pronounced like 'sick' - not Aust. English, unles you have a lisp. 9. 'thing' rhymes with 'bong' - not Aust. English 10.'math' rhymes with 'cad' - not Aust. English 11. I don't be eat that stuff - not Aust. English. 12. I want coming with - not Aust. English. 13. The principal in his office yesterday - not Aust. English. 14. There are five kids in them family - not Aust. English. 15. He done sell all that - not Aust. English. ************************************************************************* Sonja L. Lanehart Department of English My office: (706) 542-2260 Park Hall ENG office/message: (706) 542-1261 University of Georgia Fax: (706) 542-2181 Athens, GA 30602-6205 E-mail: lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]arches.uga.edu ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 02:14:39 -0600 From: Mike Salovesh t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Subject: Re: Survey help again--new participant sonja lanehart asked for help on a survey: We are about to pilot a survey on the attitudes and knowledge of pre- service teachers about language variation. What I need this time is for you to indicate if any of the sentences listed are plausible in any variety of AMERICAN English. If the sentence is plausible, please tell me which variety it is plausible in. If it is plausible in some other global variety of English, please tell which variety. I've taken your 15 survey items and divided them into three groups: 1) Sentences that could occur naturally in MY speech. 2) Sentences that sound plausible, or at least possible, for some dialect(s) other than my own. 3) Sentences that don't sound like normal utterances in any dialect that is familiar to me. (I omit most of them, below.) --------------------------------------------------------------- I would say: 4. At least he knew you have a phone. Possible context: as comment or reply after "He said he should have called me instead of waiting until he saw me, but . . . " 8. 'thick' is pronounced like 'sick' That is, if by "like" you mean "rhymes with, but has a different initial consonant". If you mean EXACTLY like, I would call this a plausible utterance. I have heard similar things in foreign- accented speech from those whose first language doesn't use initial unvoiced "th". (Where is IPA when I need it?) Native speakers of German and related languages come to mind. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Sound plausible to me, in some dialect not my own. (I cite only those that closely resemble actual utterances I have heard, in "natural" speech.) 3. He waiting for ten minutes before he left. Also plausible, same sentence without "for". Chicago Ebonics. 11. I don't be eat that stuff. Implying, in book English: "I used to eat that stuff, but nowadays I don't." OR: "I have given that stuff up for now, but I might return to it later." Chicago, Georgia Ebonics. 13. The principal in his office yesterday. 15. He done sell all that. Here in the U.S., I'd find it plausible in Chicago Ebonics -- but I'd have to look to surrounding statements to decide whether the speaker was trying to convey "he sold all of those things he used to own" or, somewhat less likely, "he used to be in the business of selling all of those things". If I heard the same sentence in Caribbean English or in the so-called Creole of Nicaragua's Atlantic Coast, I'd think the second meaning more likely. -------------------------------------------------------------------- Not plausible as cited, with comment: 2. Give me tens dollar. But "give me ten dollar" is plausible. I have heard it, in the form "gimme ten dollar", in New Orleans markets, at midwestern farm auctions, and in Chicago Ebonics. In face-to-face market settings where English was not the dominant language, I can attest to hearing "gimme ten dollar" in Japan and Korea, early 1950's; in Chicago's "Chinatown" many times over many years; and in Mexico and Guatemala, 1990's. 7. 'pen' rhymes with 'bun' "pin" and "bin", yes -- or "when" and "glen", yes. I hear this as related to the "any, many, penny" set. In each of these words, I expect (or would accept as "plausible") that the first vowel will be a front vowel. Its placement ranges from mid-high to somewhere around mid-middle, depending on regional dialect. Rhyming 'pen' and 'bun' would lead me to expect to hear the same speaker rhyming 'any' with 'honey', 'many' with 'money', and so on. I don't think I've ever heard anything like that. 9. 'thing' rhymes with 'bong' 'bang', or something close, yes. 'Eng' (as in Chang and Eng, the once-famous Siamese twins), yes. 'king', yes. But how would a speaker using the proposed thing-bong rhyme handle the contrast between 'thing' and 'thong'? 10.'math' rhymes with 'cad' I would find an UNvoiced final stop consonant plausible, but not a voiced one: 'math' could rhyme with 'cat' but not with 'cad'. The following is by way of an introduction: Since I'm new to this list, I don't know if anyone here would have heard of Henry Lee Smith's old radio (and early TV) program, "Where are you from?" He would hand a card with twenty sets of diagnostic words printed on it, and would ask someone from his audience to read the card. He then would try to specify where in the U.S. the speaker had grown up, and promised to locate most people within fifty miles. (The only items I remember from the card are marry/merry/Mary and cot -- as opposed to dog and caught.) My normal speech is Midwestern Platform English. (That comes from childhood and early adult voice training and "elocution lessons" for both singing and acting.) When Haxey Smith tried to place me with his "Where are you from" 20 questions, I played the game honestly -- and he could only say that I came from somewhere in the middle Middle West, possibly including Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Illinois, northern Missouri, northern Indiana, or Michigan. There are some diagnostic items not on his list (including, e.g., my use of a specifically native pronunciation of "Chicago") that would give me away if the corpus of my speech under examination were fairly large. But my voice coaches were too good, and Smith's list is just too short, to make identification obvious in my normal speech. I got into anthropology through an interest in linguistics. My mentors were Norman McQuown, Eric P. Hamp, Raven McDavid, and Don Mauricio Swadesh. (I cite Swadesh in his Mexican persona because that's where I worked with him.) I also took linguistics courses from Joseph Greenberg, Sol Sapporta, Isidore Dyen, and Sidney Lamb. I had the benefit of three years of almost daily interchanges with George Trager when he took a post-retirement appointment here at NIU. Nowadays, I'm strictly an amateur in linguistics and dialectology. I am a social anthropologist, with focus on kinship/social organization, politics, social stratification, and intergroup (and interethnic) relations. My fieldwork areas are Mexico, Central America, and urban U.S. cultures. -- mike salovesh salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu anthropology department northern illinois university PEACE !!! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 09:41:38 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: "legal jargon" the "ultimate dialect of scandal"? (Sheidlower & Shuyquoted) The extract below is quoted from today's web edition of the Washington Post; the story is found at: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1998-01/25/143l-012598-idx.html Political Troublespeak: With Each Scandal, a New Lingo By Elizabeth Kastor Washington Post Staff Writer Sunday, January 25, 1998; Page A22 Remember back in the distant past -- say, Tuesday -- when it was hard to work the phrase "suborning perjury" into casual conversation? No more. Scandal has once again infected the city, and with it comes that peculiar local dialect, the ritualized vocabulary of political frenzy. There are instantly ubiquitous catch phrases: "No improper relationship" has become the "no controlling legal authority" of 1998. There are the incantations: White House press secretary Mike McCurry's "I'm not going to parse the statement." President Clinton's "I am going to cooperate with the investigation." Public speech becomes simultaneously overblown and over-lawyered. Who knew there were so many, many ways to say "I'm not going to say anything"? "It is very formulaic," says lawyer Leonard Garment, who knows from scandal as a onetime Nixon aide. "The language becomes very muddy, foggy," he says. "Everybody says the same things, or they say what are generically the same things. The denials -- 'We don't know. We're investigating. It's untrue. It's not a problem. I'm not having sex with her' -- in the present tense, past tense, the pluperfect. It's very confusing language." But then, in this dreary gray landscape, colorful language explodes. "I smell a rat in this," said Clinton lawyer Robert Bennett, with ominous inferences and literary gravity. Monica Lewinsky's lawyer, William Ginsburg, offered up melodramatic imagery with an undertone of sexual assault: "If the president of the United States did this -- and I'm not saying that he did -- with this young lady, I think he's a misogynist. If he didn't, then I think Ken Starr and his crew have ravaged the life of a youngster." And with each new scandal comes the sudden intimacy of first names. Fawn. Donna. Gennifer. Paula. And now Monica. Mistakes were made. For those accused, scandal-speak takes no blame, admits to nothing. The passive voice is popular: Nothing wrong was done by anyone in particular, something just sort of happened. "Incident" serves nicely too. How appalling can something be if it's only an incident? "One of my obsessions is 'the appearance of impropriety,' " says Michael Kinsley, editor of Slate. "It's the cop-out from both directions. Someone who is guilty can say, 'I'm sorry for creating the appearance of impropriety.' He apologized without admitting anything." Words spoken in times like these have literal meanings, of course, but they also give off vibrations. "There's a need on either side to get the right associations," says Jesse Sheidlower, project director of the Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang. "That might mean using language that has a moral or legal significance, or language that makes light of these things." So independent counsel Kenneth Starr relies on the hallowed standards of American justice: "I have a very strong belief in facts and in truth," he said at a news conference Thursday, "and that the facts will come out and the truth will come out -- eventually -- consistent with the presumption of innocence." And Clinton adopts a phrase that echoes with nearly Victorian propriety: He did not, he has said repeatedly, have an "improper relationship" with Lewinsky. But sometimes the associations are unintentionally eerie. According to reports, Lewinsky referred to Clinton as the "creep." The last time that word floated through a scandal was back in the '70s and it was an acronym, standing darkly for the Committee to Re-Elect the President -- Richard Nixon. There was no controlling legal authority that says this was in violation of the law. -- Al Gore, repeatedly, during a March 1997 news conference So soothing, so precise, so impenetrable -- legal jargon is the ultimate dialect of scandal. "Lawyers have power," says Roger Shuy, a linguistics professor at Georgetown University and author of "The Language of Confession, Interrogation and Deception." "Their language is impressive. . . . People will say, 'They know! They say things like 'aid and abet' and 'heretofore' and 'hereinafter.' " [the rest of the story is deleted] Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 14:49:47 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: syntactic blends For subscribers interested in syntactic blends, here are two I noticed in recent newspaper items: 1) '"Everybody's sitting back and waiting to see where it's all going to pan out".'---blended from "...where it's all going to lead" and "whether it's all going to pan out." -- (in _Wall Street Journal_, January 7, 1998, Sec. B., p.1/3. article title: "HDTV Sets Too Pricey, Too Late?") 2) '"That's the how you got along".'---blended from "That's how you got along" and "That's the way you got along." --spoken by Monica Lewinsky in a taped conversation with Linda Tripp. The context as presented in the newspaper is (with three dots and "sic" in the article): 'LEWINSKY: "I was brought up with lies all the time...that's the (sic) how you got along...I have lied my entire life".'--- (in _St. Louis Post-Dispatch_, January 25, 1998, Sec. A. p.7/5-7; article title: "White House Sex Allegations: Excerpts of the Tapes.") --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 16:05:14 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: syntactic blends At 02:49 PM 1/25/98 -0500, you wrote: 2) '"That's the how you got along".'---blended from "That's how you got along" and "That's the way you got along." --spoken by Monica Lewinsky in a taped conversation with Linda Tripp. The context as presented in the newspaper is (with three dots and "sic" in the article): 'LEWINSKY: "I was brought up with lies all the time...that's the (sic) how you got along...I have lied my entire life".' I question whether this is a blend, and I think they put the ellipsis in the wrong place. That's the problem: except for Victor Borge, we do not speak with punctuation. I suspect what she said was, "... that's the ... [unable to think of the right word, changes gears] [that's] how you got along." Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 16:10:32 -0500 From: David Bergdahl bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Almost about dialect On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Beverly Flanigan wrote: The high tensed female voice is common here at OU too, but more prominently so in non-southern Ohioans, it seems to me. The pitch is high and the rate is so fast that often I cannot hear word segmentation and have to ask the speaker to slow down. Student announcers on the radio are among the worst (they've also never learned how to read aloud with anything like normal intonation and pausing). I associate the squeaky little-girl pitch with a desire to sound cute and "feminine" -- a backlash from a (perceived) masculinizing of women? Horrors. Beverly Flanigan Ohio University By contrast, on European tv, women with alto voices seem to be preferred. ===================================================================== == David Bergdahl Ellis Hall 114c Ohio University / Athens Associate Prof/English tel: (740) 593-2783 fax: (740) 593-2818 bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl ===================================================================== == ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 18:39:14 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: syntactic blends At 04:05 PM 1/25/98 +0000, you (Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net) wrote: I suspect what she [Lewinsky] said was, "... that's the ... [unable to think of the right word, changes gears] [that's] how you got along." A listen to the tape would maybe clarify the correctness of this hypothesis (i.e., there'd be a pause and a new start). Certainly, people talk a lot more messily than we are used to seeing in writing, and transcripts of press conferences etc. often clean up all the umming, and the backing and filling. The fancy term for changing your syntax in midstream in a sentence is anacoluthon or anacoluthia. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Jan 1998 to 25 Jan 1998 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 25 Jan 1998 to 26 Jan 1998 There are 15 messages totalling 379 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. quote source 2. Almost about dialect 3. Almost about dialect -Reply 4. doppkit (2) 5. yeah, right! (fwd) 6. Dopp kit 7. Sexgate words (a defense) (3) 8. query re _want + (participle) use 9. doppkit/ditty bag (2) 10. Survey help again--new participant 11. doppkit, Doppelt ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 07:29:08 -0500 From: Robert Ness ness[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU Subject: Re: quote source Edward Bulwer-Lytton (1803-73). On Fri, 23 Jan 1998, Beverly Flanigan wrote: Another cliche from 18th or 19th century fiction is of course "It was a dark and stormy night"--but I've forgotten the author. Anyone? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:59:41 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Almost about dialect Like Beverly, I, too, cannot hear word segmentation. Messages on my answering machine are indecipherable. On Sun, 25 Jan 1998, David Bergdahl wrote: On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Beverly Flanigan wrote: The high tensed female voice is common here at OU too, but more prominently so in non-southern Ohioans, it seems to me. The pitch is high and the rate is so fast that often I cannot hear word segmentation and have to ask the speaker to slow down. Student announcers on the radio are among the worst (they've also never learned how to read aloud with anything like normal intonation and pausing). I associate the squeaky little-girl pitch with a desire to sound cute and "feminine" -- a backlash from a (perceived) masculinizing of women? Horrors. Beverly Flanigan Ohio University By contrast, on European tv, women with alto voices seem to be preferred. ===================================================================== == David Bergdahl Ellis Hall 114c Ohio University / Athens Associate Prof/English tel: (740) 593-2783 fax: (740) 593-2818 bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl ===================================================================== == ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:08:09 -0500 From: Herb Stahlke hstahlke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GW.BSU.EDU Subject: Re: Almost about dialect -Reply I recall, a long time ago, a conversation with Ken Pike in which he described taking a series of voice lessons just so that he could learn the impressionistic terminology that voice teachers use. His point was that they had a long and effective tradition of teaching with phonetically fanciful terminology. If I'm not mistaken, his conclusion as to why it worked had to do with the fact that they also demonstrated what they meant, not that the terminology was intrinsically effective. Many voice teachers today have a basic grasp of the physiology and anatomy of voice production, but they still use the same vocabulary because it's so deep in their traditions, and, of course, their students tend to have had no phonetics. Herb Stahlke ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 10:58:17 +0000 From: Jim Rader jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM Subject: Re: doppkit The word Dopp is a trademark of the Buxton Co., a manufacturer of men's leather goods located in Chicopee, MA, a town just north of here (i.e., Springfield). Our files don't indicate when the trademark was registered, and I haven't tried to find out, but registration existed in 1982. According to the Buxton Co.'s website, the firm was founded in Springfield in 1898 by a Buxton family. Unfortunately, the site has no information on the history of the Dopp kit. The "Style" section of the Aug. 1995 issue of Playboy illustrates a Dopp kit and states in the caption that "[it was] developed by Charles Doppelt around 1919." Take this for whatever it's worth. Our cite files do not show generic use of _Dopp kit_ before the 1970's. I suppose that earlier occurrences might not have been marked by editors here because they recognized it as a trademark, though it surprises me that nothing turns up. Jim Rader ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 08:16:17 -0800 From: Peter Richardson prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: yeah, right! (fwd) I can't remember whether this swept by on the ADS list recently. Just in case it didn't, though: Subject: Double positive,Huh? A linguistics professor was lecturing to his class one day. "In English," he said, "a double negative forms a positive. In some languages though, such a Russian, a double negative is still a negative. However," he pointed out, "there is no language wherein a double positive can form a negative." A voice from the back of the room piped up, "Yeah. Right." ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 09:33:46 -0800 From: "A. Maberry" maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: doppkit Actually, I think we had a discussion of this word a couple of years back, and, if memory serves, it derives from the manufacturer of the kit. But that's about as much as I can remember. Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu On Sat, 24 Jan 1998, Timothy C. Frazer wrote: Anyone ever hear of the word "doppkit" used for the shaving kits servicement used in WWII? Tom Murray has heard it from a 60ish colleague, but its not in DARE or anywhere else. Also: The elliptical construction with "like," e.g., "the dog likes petted." This is similar to "the car needs washed" or "the cat wants out," both well attested. Anyone heard of similar ellipses with "like"? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:24:03 +0000 From: David Bergdahl bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Dopp kit "Our cite files do not show generic use of _Dopp kit_ before the 1970's. I suppose that earlier occurrences might not have been marked by editors here because they recognized it as a trademark, though it surprises me that nothing turns up." My brother joined the USAF in 1955 and when he returned from basic he had a dopp kit, so it was familiar in military contexts at least in the mid fifties. -- _____________________________________________________________________ david.bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ohiou.edu Ohio University / Athens http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl Ellis Hall 114c tel: (740) 593-2783 Office hours: fax: (740) 593-2818 MTThF 10:10-11 a.m. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 13:37:24 -0500 From: Larry Horn laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Sexgate words (a defense) Why is this here? Partisan and not funny. Please, no Ken Starr wannabes on this list. As a lifelong "left-liberal" who has no use for witch-hunts or Clinton crazies, I have to disagree here. I find the elaboration & collection of these word-formation-in-action -gate terms non- (or meta-) partisan (you don't have to be a right-winger to find these charges plausible and unpleasant, if--pardon the expression--a bit overblown), funny (at least the good ones, although that's an aesthetic call--my personal faves so far are 'zippergate' for the phonology and 'tailgate' for the pun), AND list-relevant, although more toward the WOTY/coinage component of the Society than to dialectology per se. If Barry had his way and we schizzed into an ads/dialectology group proper and an American Popular Speech list/website, the "-gate"s would obviously head for the latter, but since we implicitly spurned the schism, bring 'em on. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 14:14:43 -0500 From: Denis Anson danson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MISERI.EDU Subject: Re: query re _want + (participle) use On Saturday, January 24, 1998 9:27 AM, Pat Courts [SMTP:courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AIT.FREDONIA.EDU] wrote: Simon, with regard to "want" + participle. I heard it often in Steubenville, OH. I'm pretty sure I've heard it here in Western NY, but I'll check that out to be sure. I also associate it with the usage of "needs" + participle (e.g. the shirt needs ironed). For an article on constructions with elliptical _want + participle_ (e.g. the car wants washed, the car wants washing, the car doesn't want washed; the infant wants diapered, the infant doesn't want diapered), my colleague Tom and Murray and I would like to hear from anyone who uses such a construction or is in an area where such a construction is in use. I think that the formation "the car wants washing" probably stems from another meaning of want from the active verb. There is also the meaning of "lacks" as in "For want of a nail, a horse was lost..." In this interpretation, which I think would be an archaic but grammatically correct version, "the car wants washing" would translate into "the car needs washing" or "the car lacks washing." Denis Anson, MS, OTR/L Assistant Professor Occupational Therapy Department College Misericordia 301 Lake Street Dallas, PA 18636 phone: 717-674-6413 fax: 717-674-8902 Author of: Alternative Computer Access: Making Appropriate Selections from FA Davis ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 16:15:02 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Sexgate words (a defense) I agree with Larry on the legitimacy of collecting terms referring to the present pseudo/quasi-scandal. But if I read Tim's comment correctly, it was the incorporation of such terms (and unattested new ones) into concocted and even offensive dialogues that he objects to, as do I. An honest researching of the terms is fine; it's the cutesy use of them on a scholarly list that is objectionable. (And I wouldn't like to see that sort of (mis)representation on a Popular Speech list either.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:20:51 -0500 From: frank abate abatef[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: Re: Sexgate words (a defense) I'm certainly no "left-liberal", and so was particularly glad to see Larry's words replying to the objection to the many new "-gate" terms. I= don't know Larry, but I was very glad to see his wise opinion. Just wanted to add that I'm really surprised by what strikes people as offensive. This stuff is intended to be funny; sometimes it isn't, becau= se it is bad or lame as humor. But is there any problem (ever) skewering politicians, for goodness sake? And yes, please, let's not worry about ANYONE'S politics. This list is supposed to be about exploration and analysis of language use. That's a scholarly and intellectual activity that should have no truck with politics. Frank Abate ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:27:58 -0600 From: "Emerson, Jessie J" jjemerso[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INGR.COM Subject: Re: doppkit/ditty bag I've heard some WWII folks call shaving kits "ditty bags." What does that mean? Thanks, Jessie Emerson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:30:21 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: doppkit/ditty bag At 05:27 PM 1/26/98 -0600, you wrote: I've heard some WWII folks call shaving kits "ditty bags." What does that mean? Thanks, Jessie Emerson OED2 on ditty-bag: [Origin obscure: according to Smyth Sailor's Word-bk. it `derives its name from the dittis or Manchester stuff of which it was once made'; but no evidence of this is given, nor is anything known of the stuff alleged.] Definition: A bag used by sailors to contain their smaller necessaries. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 18:01:33 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Survey help again--new participant I've already sent my responses to Sonja Lanehart privately, but I'm interested in Mike Salovesh's replies on the survey, particularly those referring to "Chicago Ebonics." Sometimes we hear a lack of tense marking, or the use of uninflected "be," and assume they apply in all contexts (as the "Mad Monk" did some time back). Does Mr. S. really hear "[He] in his office yesterday" or "I don't be eat ..." or "He done sell" (instead of "sold") in Chicago African Americans' speech? Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but past tense would not have zero marking, nor would "be" be used without pres. prog. -ing, or "done" with the infinitive instead of the past participle in most (if not all?) varieties of AAE. (I questioned sentence 3 too, but thought it might be used in narrative speech, where present (prog.) and past tense may alternate.) Non-native English may, of course, not inflect for plurals and may not be able to handle sounds like 'th' in 'thick'; and I too wondered if 'bong' was meant to be 'bang.' A query too: I've never heard the term "Platform English." What is the history of this term? I assume it's the equivalent of "Media English" or an assumed "General (Midwest) American"? Or does it refer only to "coached English," for example, for elocution or debate? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 21:00:13 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: doppkit, Doppelt In a 1/26/98 message on "doppkit" Jim Rader wrote: The "Style" section of the Aug. 1995 issue of Playboy illustrates a Dopp kit and states in the caption that "[it was] developed by Charles Doppelt around 1919." Take this for whatever it's worth. Incidentally, Elsdon Smith's _American Surnames_ says of the name "Doppelt": "The German DOPPELT and the Norwegian GEMELL record the man born at the same time as another, a twin." German "doppelt," of course, means "double." --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Jan 1998 to 26 Jan 1998 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 26 Jan 1998 to 27 Jan 1998 There are 21 messages totalling 864 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Sexgate explained; ADS-L again (3) 2. Survey help--new participant (LONG!, detailed) 3. Almost about dialect 4. Survey help again 5. ADS-L guidelines, appreciation doubted (2) 6. "1, 2, 3" 7. Dopp kit and Doppelt again 8. (yeah, right!)++ (2) 9. Phonetic transcription--help (5) 10. Sexgate words (a defense) 11. "zephyr" (= nothing) (2) 12. "to dis" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 02:51:38 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Sexgate explained; ADS-L again SEXGATE EXPLAINED AMERICAN SPEECH has covered "-gate" words not once nor twice, but four times. See "Among the New Words" 53.3 Fall 1978, 54.4 Winter 1979, 56.4 Winter 1981, and 59.2 Summer 1984. Last Friday, it was not at all clear what this thing would be called. President Clinton's "There is no improper sexual relationship" made the news, and a related WASHINGTON POST story with Jesse Sheidlower (an ADS member) was posted here by someone else. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- ADS-L AGAIN Tim and Beverly's comments were really directed at something else. If a joke doesn't work, you don't say anything, or you write to me privately. You don't "boo" me in public. They've never "cheered" me in public (and I've posted heaps), so where's the balance? Both Tim and Beverly have written or at least strongly hinted in the past that anyone (me) who posts etymologies is "unprofessional" and shouldn't be on ADS-L. I then suggested a new web format ("Doppkit" would be in NOTES & QUERIES; the Washington Post "Sexgate" article would be reprinted in NEWS) and I even offered to donate money to the American Dialect Society, but nobody was interested! This is all old news, but until there are fundamental changes in the American Dialect Society (i.e., we have publications that cover all parts of the language and we aggressively seek new members who reflect these broadened interests), I'll always be "unprofessional" and unwelcome--no matter how the material is presented. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 02:34:20 -0600 From: Mike Salovesh t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU Subject: Re: Survey help--new participant (LONG!, detailed) Beverly Flanigan wrote: . . . I'm interested in Mike Salovesh's replies on the survey, particularly those referring to "Chicago Ebonics." Sometimes we hear a lack of tense marking, or the use of uninflected "be," and assume they apply in all contexts (as the "Mad Monk" did some time back). Does Mr. S. really hear "[He] in his office yesterday" or "I don't be eat ..." or "He done sell" (instead of "sold") in Chicago African Americans' speech? Answer: Yes, yes, and yes. My shorthand "Chicago Ebonics" refers to ordinary conversations among African Americans in Chicago today, Black Chicagoans yesterday, and Negro Chicagoans of my youth. (The variant labels are intended to reflect self-identifiers commonly used at different time periods, within what used to be called Chicago's Black Belt.) By yesterday, I mean prior to 1965, the last time I lived in Chicago's Black Ghetto -- or in my conversations with Black residents of Stateville, the Illinois maximum security correctional facility, where I taught some courses for university credit in the 1980s. Much of my interaction in these speech communities took place, and continues to take place, in settings where the usual lines between "blacks" and "whites" are somewhat blurred, in part because I prefer to ignore them. When I make such a claim, it's only fair that I identify myself. The trouble is that in today's society I am an anomaly out of past time. As I was growing up, people whose ancestors, like mine, came from southern or eastern Europe were not really seen as of "white race". Social usage admitted me to the "white race" sometime around 1960, give or take five years or so. (For my previous status, witness, e.g., the way U.S. immigration laws were written in the early 1920s -- people who shared my ancestry were regarded as "racially inferior" and undesirable candidates for admission to the U.S.) Let me amplify that from personal experience. In 1959, I took a job at the Chicago credit card office of Texaco, Inc., where I was the first person of Russian ancestry they had ever hired. In those days, Texaco hired through outside employment agencies. Their instructions to those agencies didn't just say "whites only". They got highly specific: no Catholics unless "Irish" or "German"; no "Jews", no "Italians", no "Greeks", no "Poles"; and so on, ad nauseum. Texaco was not alone in those days: discrimination of this sort was a major function handed over to employment agencies almost universally. I used quotes around the label words in the preceding paragraph because Texaco used them in what today would be a special, bigoted sense. (Let it be noted, however, that these were the common meanings of such terms in normal Chicago speech and social usage.) The labels meant ancestry, however distant, not place of birth or citizenship or current religious affiliation. On the application forms, I reported my religion (Quaker) accurately, and said nothing about the religion of other members of my family. If my eventual boss at Texaco had known that some of my ancestors were Jews, OR that some of my ancestors were Russian Orthodox, OR that some of my ancestors were Catholics, I would not have been interviewed, let alone hired. My "blood" would have been seen to be tainted with those unacceptable, unAmerican religions or something else equally ridiculous. I was used to being part of several excluded minorities, which gave me a (probably erroneous) great feeling of freedom to move at will in minority communities. In the most segregated city in the U.S. I lived, at various times, in what were regarded as all black neighborhoods, all white neighborhoods, Jewish neighborhoods, Catholic neighborhoods, Polish neighborhoods, Italian neighborhoods, and others. Wherever I lived, I talked to my neighbors. (That includes my neighbors from the year and a half my wife and I lived on the next block over from the Chicago headquarters of the Lost/Found Nation of Islam in the Wilderness of North America, the Honorable Elijah Muhammed's Temple Number Two. A majority of our neighbors when we lived there were Black Muslims.) Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but past tense would not have zero marking, nor would "be" be used without pres. prog. -ing, or "done" with the infinitive instead of the past participle in most (if not all?) varieties of AAE. I mostly agree with your statements as normative in most varieties of AAE. That's not the question I was responding to, however. I was reporting on constructions I regularly hear in actual use. The sentence "The principal in his office yesterday" may indeed have zero grammatical marking for past tense; the word yesterday marks the time another way. Zero grammatical tense marking when a sentence includes time words is an admittedly unusual pattern, but I have encountered it often enough that I don't notice it consciously any more. "Be" plus pres. prog. "-ing" is the form I normally expect, but "I don't be eating that stuff" actually hits my ear as almost as unusual as the same sentence without "-ing". The sentence "he done sell all that" strikes me as possible, but special. It would carry more emphasis than "he done sold all that". I'd expect to hear it accompanied by a tone pattern marking emphasis. (The sentence would sound most natural to me if both tone and stress mark the word "sell".) That, at least, is what the combination of "done" with the infinitive stem conveys to me. When I first started taking conscious notice of constructions using zero grammatical tense marker plus some separate word indicating time, I immediately tucked it away in the same memory hole where I carry some odd facts about Japanese. (Some of those odd facts may actually be true, since I knew enough Japanese -- some 45 years ago -- that I was able to make phone calls in Japan without worrying too much about whether the phone would be answered by a monolingual Japanese speaker. Very little of the actual language remains in my head today, however.) I have the impression Japanese sentences normally don't mark number grammatically in either the noun or the verb, but the speaker can choose to say the equivalent of "one man go" or "five man go" if necessary. Non-native English may, of course, not inflect for plurals and may not be able to handle sounds like 'th' in 'thick' . . . That raises a question I didn't face in my original note. I think that there are native speakers of English whose normal speech reflects the fact that their parents or grandparents spoke some other language. I feel uncomfortable saying that such people are speaking "non-native English" when English is the only language they have ever spoken. Let me amplify from my own speech patterns. I'm the Chicago-born son of a man who was also born in Chicago, 20 years after HIS father came to the U.S. My grandfather, who died a decade before I was born, spoke Russian and English and some Yiddish. So did my grandmother, whose English was accented, but competent. My father's only native language was English. You'd expect that my English ought to be that of a native speaker. I discovered that isn't so when I read some British linguist's description of English articulation. (The author may have been Jones; I don't remember for sure.) I was struck by his description of how native English speakers were supposed to pronounce /d/ and /t/. Where the linguist described the articulation as "tongue tip", I noticed that in my own speech what touched the alveolar ridge sometimes was the tongue blade, certainly well past anything that I felt as the tip of the tongue. The two varieties seemed to be in free variation. I didn't know what to make of that observation for years -- until I started to learn about Russian phonology. The phonetic range of my /d/ and /t/ phonemes include what would be both "palatalized" and "non-palatalized" stops if I were speaking Russian. This phonetic feature carried over even at a full generation's separation from Russian speaking. More generally, take a look someday at a native speaker of English whose parents or grandparents spoke a Slavic language. Watch the articulation of /b/ and /p/; you'll usually see that what moves is the lower lip. The upper lip is tense, but it doesn't move at all. I used to know a very good (and remarkably observant) linguist who lived for some years in Pittsburgh, where there are many people of Eastern European descent. He once remarked that Pittsburgh is full of people whose upper lip seems to disappear entirely by the time they're 45 years old -- a reasonable consequence of habitually using the lips as I described. They are, nonetheless, monolingual native English speakers. That's why I said something about the plausibility of some of Sonja Lanehart's survey sentences in non-standard, foreign-language-influenced varieties of English I have heard in the U.S. Maybe, just maybe, we'd lose some interesting data if we left such possibilities out because they "really" aren't *pure* English. A query too: I've never heard the term "Platform English." What is the history of this term? I assume it's the equivalent of "Media English" or an assumed "General (Midwest) American"? Or does it refer only to "coached English," for example, for elocution or debate? The term goes back to pre-TV days, perhaps even before network radio, when a generally accepted "Media English" was not established in the U.S. "Platform English", the kind you expected to hear from a lecture platform as used by an educated speaker, was (usually) a learned second language. It was regarded as a special, and desirable, variety of "proper English". Its model was whatever elocution teachers taught. Its most-emphasized norms may well have been deliberately chosen as markers precisely because they did not occur in anyone's normal, native speech. Unlike English U as it is still taught to members of the British upper class, Platform English was not supposed to serve as a class marker in everyday speech. Platform English was not supposed to be spoken in everyday life: it was meant for the lecture platform alone. Platform English is (or, rather, was) not "General (Midwest) American" at all. Neither was it Leonard Bloomfield's SAM, or Standard Average Midwestern. The conscious goal of speaking platform English was to remove all regionalisms -- an obvious impossibility. The goal was widely held, nonetheless. Schoolteachers tried to produce something similar when trying to teach "proper English" to their students. I still remember a fourth or fifth grade teacher who tried to teach me and my classmates not to "drop our aitches". What she meant was that she wanted to hear us say things like "HHHwhy was Moby Dick a HHHwhite HHHwhale?" That was far from anything any of us would say. It was far from anything we had ever heard a midwesterner say. When she wasn't around, just inserting a single "aitch" before word-initial "w" was a guaranteed laugh-getter. I'm laughing at myself when I say that Platform English is my only native language. Still, I do have to make a conscious code switch if I want to talk like a normal human being. The switch is always to a fair approximation of some other specific dialect of English, not any generalized average of all the Englishes I've ever heard. -- mike salovesh salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu anthropology department northern illinois university PEACE !!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:34:41 EST From: Dfcoye Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Almost about dialect Here in NJ there are some female squeeking students, but by no means anywhere near a majority. More noticeable is a female tendency to raise the vowel /ei/ as in fate so it's getting quite close to /i/ as in feet. Is this just NJ or are others hearing this too? Dale Coye The College of NJ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:36:46 -0500 From: sonja lanehart lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARCHES.UGA.EDU Subject: Re: Survey help again Thanks to all who offered their help with the survey questions. We will pilot the survey today and probably make further changes. I had asked about the plausibility of the sentences because each is paired with a sentence IS plausible in some variety of American English. The object is to figure out which one is plausible. I just wanted to make sure that the sentences I gave you to inspect weren't plausible so that there should be only one choice for plausibility. For those interested, I will let you know how the survey goes once we actually dispense it for real. Again, thanks for your help. --SL ************************************************************************* Sonja L. Lanehart Department of English My office: (706) 542-2260 Park Hall ENG office/message: (706) 542-1261 University of Georgia Fax: (706) 542-2181 Athens, GA 30602-6205 E-mail: lanehart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]arches.uga.edu ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:24:41 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Sexgate explained; ADS-L again At 02:51 AM 1/27/98 EST, you (Barry Popik) wrote: SEXGATE EXPLAINED AMERICAN SPEECH has covered "-gate" words not once nor twice, but four times. See "Among the New Words" 53.3 Fall 1978, 54.4 Winter 1979, 56.4 Winter 1981, and 59.2 Summer 1984. Last Friday, it was not at all clear what this thing would be called. President Clinton's "There is no improper sexual relationship" made the news, and a related WASHINGTON POST story with Jesse Sheidlower (an ADS member) was posted here by someone else. ------------------------------------------------------------------ ADS-L AGAIN Tim and Beverly's comments were really directed at something else. If a joke doesn't work, you don't say anything, or you write to me privately. You don't "boo" me in public. They've never "cheered" me in public (and I've posted heaps), so where's the balance? I think the present process is very painful for a lot of people, and the jokes felt like salt in a wound to them. I don't know that people were objecting to the sheer listing and discussion of coinages. Both Tim and Beverly have written or at least strongly hinted in the past that anyone (me) who posts etymologies is "unprofessional" and shouldn't be on ADS-L. Of course there should be more here than lexical discussion. But an email list is the sum total of what people put into it. People who are looking to discuss vowel-shifts or sociolinguistic issues (etc.) need to ask themselves: If not me, who? If not now, when? Those topics, interesting as I or others might find them, are very rarely raised by anyone. Given the topics people do raise, the list is presently about 95% lexical and pronunciational. Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 08:38:28 -0600 From: "Shalanna (Denise) Weeks" dgweeks[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SPD.DSCCC.COM Subject: ADS-L guidelines, appreciation doubted On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Bapopik wrote: AMERICAN SPEECH has covered "-gate" words not once nor twice, but four times. See "Among the New Words" 53.3 Fall 1978, 54.4 Winter 1979, 56.4 Winter 1981, and 59.2 Summer 1984. [...] Both Tim and Beverly have written or at least strongly hinted in the past that anyone (me) who posts etymologies is "unprofessional" and shouldn't be on ADS-L. Well, I enjoy the etymologies and the jokey etymologies and just about everything about words and new coinages. But then I'm a Richard Lederer fan and have coined many of my own words for my novels. So maybe I "shouldn't" be on ADS-L to get those things. But the WORDS-L list, the one I expected to have these kinds of discussions, is nothing but a chat session made into messages; I've been monitoring that digest, and they have lots of fun, but they seldom even discuss words at all. So this is the only place that I see words discussed. I'm here because I'm a logophile. I'm not sure that a mailing list can be "solely limited to professional talk" and still remain interesting; even over on software-testing-L (swtest-discuss), we have side sessions on test problems and types. If there are guidelines that direct us only to talk about dialect (whatever that is), maybe I ought to go over to the Web site and read them again. I read the welcome message and didn't get this particular bit out of it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Jan 1998 17:03:35 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: "1, 2, 3" Last Thursday I wrote: ======= This story is probably far older than any of us. There is a version in the _Treasure of Jewish Folklore_ that my grandfather had on his shelf and is now on mine at home. I will try to remember to look it up tonight. ======= Nope. I checked in the book, and it's not in there. I know I've read it, but that wasn't the place. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:47:22 +0000 From: Jim Rader jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM Subject: Dopp kit and Doppelt again I turned up more information on Dopp kit through a Nexis search. ( Dopp kit , by the way, got only 26 hits in the combined News and Mags databases, which is a pittance in Nexis terms; I didn't try other spellings, though.) The following is from the Austin-American Statesman , March 28, 1994, Lifestyle section p. B5, in a query-to-the-paper columns (byline--Jane S. Greig): -"Dopp" is a registered trademark of a man's toiletry kit. -The kit was developed by Charles Doppelt, a German immigrant who -arrived in Chicago in the early 1900's. Doppelt was a designer of -leather goods and was the first to patent this toilet kit for men's -shaving paraphernalia and other personal items.... -Charles Doppelt's Co. was purchased by Samsonite in the early '70's. -In 1979 Buxton acquired ownership of the trademark name "Dopp Kit" -[though according to the Buxton webpage only "Dopp" is -trademarked--JLR]. Similar information appears in the Advocate (Baton Rouge, LA) for April 26, 1996. Some Buxton wallets carrying the "Dopp" trademark appear to have contained a small card with a snippet of history, according to which "during World War II millions of GIs were issued Dopp kits, forever implanting the name Dopp in the psyche of America." A letter from one Maida Mangiameli, Hawthorn Woods, IL, appeared in the Chicago Tribune Sunday magazine for May 19, 1996: -Regarding Bill Brashler's article about luggage in your Travel Part -2 (March 17), my father Jerome Harris designed the original Dopp Kit. - He worked for his uncle, Charles Doppelt at Charles Doppelt fine -leather goods in Chicago, where the design was patented. There was, -indeed, a time when the Dopp Kit was very well known.... Finally, the following was in the obituary column of the Chicago Tribune for June 16, 1993: "Jerome Marovitz...retired controller for Doppelt, a former manufacturer of leather goods, for more than 15 years. Once located at Cermark and Wabash, the company was known for its Dopp kit, a travel case for toiletries." Jim Rader ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:36:48 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: ADS-L guidelines, appreciation doubted I am especially enchanted by the idea that a mail list limited to professional talk could not 'remain interesting.' dInIs On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Bapopik wrote: AMERICAN SPEECH has covered "-gate" words not once nor twice, but four times. See "Among the New Words" 53.3 Fall 1978, 54.4 Winter 1979, 56.4 Winter 1981, and 59.2 Summer 1984. [...] Both Tim and Beverly have written or at least strongly hinted in the past that anyone (me) who posts etymologies is "unprofessional" and shouldn't be on ADS-L. Well, I enjoy the etymologies and the jokey etymologies and just about everything about words and new coinages. But then I'm a Richard Lederer fan and have coined many of my own words for my novels. So maybe I "shouldn't" be on ADS-L to get those things. But the WORDS-L list, the one I expected to have these kinds of discussions, is nothing but a chat session made into messages; I've been monitoring that digest, and they have lots of fun, but they seldom even discuss words at all. So this is the only place that I see words discussed. I'm here because I'm a logophile. I'm not sure that a mailing list can be "solely limited to professional talk" and still remain interesting; even over on software-testing-L (swtest-discuss), we have side sessions on test problems and types. If there are guidelines that direct us only to talk about dialect (whatever that is), maybe I ought to go over to the Web site and read them again. I read the welcome message and didn't get this particular bit out of it. Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:20:17 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: (yeah, right!)++ Peter Richardson prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU wrote: [snip] A linguistics professor was lecturing to his class one day. "In English," he said, "a double negative forms a positive. In some languages though, such a Russian, a double negative is still a negative. However," he pointed out, "there is no language wherein a double positive can form a negative." A voice from the back of the room piped up, "Yeah. Right." This is also told of Feynman. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 12:51:51 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Phonetic transcription--help X-posted to HEL-L and ADS-L As a medievalist with the usual peripheral training in linguistics, mostly historical, I'd like to ask the help of the real linguists and phoneticians on the list. The extent of my knowledge of phonetic transcription is the "broad" method used in textbooks like Pyles and Algeo, which is not always adequate for dialectical allophones. I have a student with a Texas accent who, like many Southerners and Westerners, simplifies the diphthong [ai] (among others). But I can't really transcribe her vowel as either [a] or [ae]. Her pronunciation of like is not a homophone of either lock [lak] or lack [laek] but is pretty much smack in the middle, as if she stops in the middle of the glide or rather sets her mouth to say the glide but holds the pure vowel. I don't really know how to transcribe her like without an approximation that doesn't do her justice and can potentially confuse the class. What do those of you who really know what you're doing use for this sound? Alan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 11:40:35 -0800 From: Garland D Bills gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNM.EDU Subject: Re: Phonetic transcription--help On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Alan Baragona wrote: I have a student with a Texas accent who, like many Southerners and Westerners, simplifies the diphthong [ai] (among others). But I can't really transcribe her vowel as either [a] or [ae]. Her pronunciation of like is not a homophone of either lock [lak] or lack [laek] but is pretty much smack in the middle, as if she stops in the middle of the glide or rather sets her mouth to say the glide but holds the pure vowel. I don't really know how to transcribe her like without an approximation that doesn't do her justice and can potentially confuse the class. As a native speaker of that same (standard, of course) dialect, it seems to me your characterization is quite accurate. The IPA symbols for the three vowels in our dialect are [ae] for lack , [a] for like , and "script a" for which I'll use [[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] for lock . In articulatory terms, probably the simplist (and not really too oversimplified) description is that all three are low vowels in front, central, and back positions respectively. Phoneticians will probably make our lives more complicated than this -- right, Don Lance? Garland D. Bills E-mail: gbills[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unm.edu Department of Linguistics Tel.: (505) 277-7416 University of New Mexico FAX: (505) 277-6355 Albuquerque, NM 87131-1196 USA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 10:52:00 -0800 From: Johanna Rubba jrubba[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]POLYMAIL.CPUNIX.CALPOLY.EDU Subject: Re: Phonetic transcription--help The 'vowel space' -- the empty area of the mouth in which the tongue positions itself for vowel sounds -- allows for very fine gradations, and this often makes it difficult to pin down a vowel. I have terrible difficulty placing my students' mid-lo back rounded/unrounded vowel (an 'open o' for us East-Coasters); I'm convinced it's in between open o and [a]. There is, however, a recognized symbol for a vowel between [ae] and [a]; it is not available on this font. It's the version of the letter a that you usually see in print -- the one with the little curl over the little balloon (very technical description, you see). Someone more savvy may actually know the name of this letter. In my experience studying languages and dialects, this vowel is often used to transcribe the French /a/, and the /a/ that occurs in certain r-less dialects, like those of Massachusetts, in words like 'park'. This may be the vowel you want, or close enough anyway. I don't have the reference handy, but there is a well-known set of tapes with accompanying text materials for sounds of the world's languages. Maybe someone else on the list knows of this. A lot of U. libraries carry this, and it could help you identify strange-sounding vowels. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Johanna Rubba Assistant Professor, Linguistics ~ English Department, California Polytechnic State University ~ San Luis Obispo, CA 93407 ~ Tel. (805)-756-2184 E-mail: jrubba[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]polymail.calpoly.edu ~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 14:42:00 -0500 From: Larry Horn laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: (yeah, right!)++ At 11:20 AM -0500 1/27/98, Mark Mandel wrote: Peter Richardson prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU wrote: [snip] A linguistics professor was lecturing to his class one day. "In English," he said, "a double negative forms a positive. In some languages th is still a negative. However," he pointed out, "there is no language wherein a A voice from the back of the room piped up, "Yeah. Right." This is also told of Feynman. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ And, as I noted the last couple of times we've had this thread, the "voice in the back" has also been attributed to the philosopher Saul Kripke of Princeton, or--most convincingly--to the philosopher Sidney Morganbesser of Columbia. Since I vasn't dere, Charley, dese could all be urban legends for all I know. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 13:41:05 -0800 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET Subject: Re: Sexgate words (a defense) ...This stuff is intended to be funny; sometimes it isn't, becau= se it is bad or lame as humor. But is there any problem (ever) skewering politicians, for goodness sake? And yes, please, let's not worry about ANYONE'S politics. This list is supposed to be about exploration and analysis of language use. That's a scholarly and intellectual activity that should have no truck with politics. Way ta go Frank! (And Larry) Rima ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 15:42:00 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Phonetic transcription--help On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Alan Baragona wrote: I have a student with a Texas accent who, like many Southerners and Westerners, simplifies the diphthong [ai] (among others). But I can't really transcribe her vowel as either [a] or [ae]. Her pronunciation of like is not a homophone of either lock [lak] or lack [laek] but is pretty much smack in the middle, as if she stops in the middle of the glide or rather sets her mouth to say the glide but holds the pure vowel. I don't really know how to transcribe her like without an approximation that doesn't do her justice and can potentially confuse the class. On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Garland Bills wrote: As a native speaker of that same (standard, of course) dialect, it seems to me your characterization is quite accurate. The IPA symbols for the three vowels in our dialect are [ae] for lack , [a] for like , and "script a" for which I'll use [[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] for lock . In articulatory terms, probably the simplist (and not really too oversimplified) description is that all three are low vowels in front, central, and back positions respectively. Phoneticians will probably make our lives more complicated than this -- right, Don Lance? You bet, Garland. For some speakers the vowel of 'pot' is low central, so the vowel of 'like' would be, in their speech, either a fronted low central vowel or retracted low front vowel, the former being the more logical description. This particular situation was discussed in a number of sources in the 1950s, as I recall. If one's 'pot' vowel is low back, then Garland's description is fine. The echo of his phonology in my head tells me he has accurately described his own speech. Roger Lass (Phonology..., Cambridge UP, 1984, p. 137) points out that in historical descriptions it appears that as the Middle English long vowels underwent the Great Vowel Shift they left the (monophthongal) phonemic system, but some structuralist discussions of "phonemic contrasts" seemed to treat the Southern U. S. monophthongized "long i" as if this [a] had somehow re-entered the system of English phonemes. Phoneticians don't make people's lives more complicated; stubborn phonetic facts do that. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 20:04:39 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: Phonetic transcription--help Thanks to Johanna, Stanley, Garland, and Donald for the phonetic guidance. Following your descriptions, as I look at the detailed IPA chart on the flyleaf of Pyles/Algeo, I see that fronted open [a] just below [ae], and I think that must be the notation I'm looking for. Stanley's barred-i doesn't seem to be on the chart, though there is the hight central barred small i . But in the textbook they describe that as a rounded sound between the [I] in gist and the open [E] in jest that appears in some dialects in the adverb just and children (it's beside a barred-u, which makes sense given their description but which doesn't sound like what Stanley was talking about). In any case, I can now give my Texan a way to approximate some of her own speech in IPA instead of sounding like a Rumanian who learned English in Texas. This sort of discussion would be a lot easier with voice-e-mail, wouldn't it? Alan B. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 19:38:56 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Sexgate explained; ADS-L again Correction, Mr. Popik: Your etymological research is perfectly legitimate; some items interest me, and some don't, but they are not outside the domain of the ADS, and you do not NOT belong on the list. Read again what Tim and I commented on: The little made-up dialogues add gratuitous (and, to some of us, tasteless) humor to an otherwise quite acceptable report on -gate words and other etymologies. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 20:58:51 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: "zephyr" (= nothing) I've come across "zephyr" with the meanng "nothing": _ St. Louis Post-Dispatch_, May l7, l997, p.34/1-3; title: "The Sky Is Not Falling": "A 150-pound hunk of aluminum...comes hurtling out of space and crashes on downtown's major artery. And what happens? Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zephyr. No human pancakes. No busted windshields. [etc.]...." I have no idea how the semantic development "zephyr" to "nothing" occurred. Can anyone help? --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:44:20 -0600 From: David Berry daberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEMONET.COM Subject: Re: "zephyr" (= nothing) stop sending me this damn crap. I want out! Hear me, I want out! no more mail. ---------- From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: "zephyr" (= nothing) Date: Tuesday, January 27, 1998 7:58 PM I've come across "zephyr" with the meanng "nothing": _ St. Louis Post-Dispatch_, May l7, l997, p.34/1-3; title: "The Sky Is Not Falling": "A 150-pound hunk of aluminum...comes hurtling out of space and crashes on downtown's major artery. And what happens? Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zephyr. No human pancakes. No busted windshields. [etc.]...." I have no idea how the semantic development "zephyr" to "nothing" occurred. Can anyone help? --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 23:09:58 -0400 From: JANE M SPALDING-JAMIESON JSPALDINGJAM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA Subject: "to dis" Is "to dis" a verb now? I am a student of linguistics at U.PEI. in Canada, and have heard two instances of a slang term, wondering if anyone else has heard it, or knows about its origins: 1/ Last week, Will Smith on "Fresh Prince of Bel Air" tv show says to his girlfriend, "Are you dissin' me?" Apparent meaning is something like, Are you trying to get rid of me, or Are you disrespecting me? 2/ Here in Charlottetown, Angela Marchbank of PEI Special Olympics said to me, also last week, "If you don't get through on the phone, or if they say no to a donation ... just throw them all in a dis pile. The dis pile is what we throw in the garbage later." Dis- is listed in the Oxford dictionary as a prefix, which can mean rejected, among other things. But how did it become a word? Any thoughts? (I realize this is just slang, but sometimes yesterday's slang is today's serious vocabulary ... and I see in my peers a more and more informal attitude towards the English language, which at some point affects standard usage) - Jane Spalding-Jamieson jspaldingjam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]upei.ca (University of Prince Edward Island, Charlottetown, PEI, Canada) ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Jan 1998 to 27 Jan 1998 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 27 Jan 1998 to 28 Jan 1998 There are 24 messages totalling 783 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "zephyr" (= nothing) (6) 2. Fornigate & Eatin' Ain't Cheatin' (new words) (2) 3. Phonetic transcription--help (3) 4. "to dis" (2) 5. ADS-L Digest - 25 Jan 1998 to 26 Jan 1998 (6) 6. "dis" 7. cow-tow? (3) 8. Kow-tow (Was Re: cow-tow?) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:14:58 +0700 From: Scott Paauw spaauw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RAD.NET.ID Subject: Re: "zephyr" (= nothing) Gerald Cohen wrote: I've come across "zephyr" with the meanng "nothing": _ St. Louis Post-Dispatch_, May l7, l997, p.34/1-3; title: "The Sky Is Not Falling": "A 150-pound hunk of aluminum...comes hurtling out of space and crashes on downtown's major artery. And what happens? Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zephyr. No human pancakes. No busted windshields. [etc.]...." I have no idea how the semantic development "zephyr" to "nothing" occurred. Can anyone help? This is just a guess, but it may be confusion with "cipher" (Brit. spelling cypher), which of course means zero. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 01:31:10 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Fornigate & Eatin' Ain't Cheatin' (new words) Please, give the following words absolutely no WOTY consideration! No word-of-the-year, please! PLEASE?? Tom Dalzell finished his Merriam-Webster SLANG OF SIN way too early. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- FORNIGATE On the web, "Fornigate" appears to be beating out "Sexgate." Give it another week. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- EATIN' AIN'T CHEATIN' Gosh, I hope this is over soon. This phrase (not in the RHHDAS) was also on the web in several newsgroups. This is from Christopher Caldwell's "Hill of Beans" column, the New York Press, Jan. 28-Feb 3, 1998, pg. 26, col. 1: She fell in love with Bill Clinton, even though their relationship consisted solely of blowjobs. The two almost had sex once, but then the President pulled back and said, "No, that's special." (How flattering.) (...) Anyone inclined to think that Lewinsky's version of the Clinton affair is a fantasy should keep in mind its details. Clinton is clearly an adherent of Robb's Rule--named after the prolific Virginia Senator Chuck Robb--that it's not adultery if only oral sex is involved. This interpretation seems to be the prevalent one among Southern politicians, who are apt to express it in its more apothegmatic formulation: _Eatin' ain't cheatin'_. "Eatin' ain't cheatin'" supposedly comes from a Kinky Friedman song and was popularized on the Don Imus radio show. I tried to get the full lyrics on the web, but got "404 File Not Found." Remember: "Among the New Words" is fine, but please, NO WOTY!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:44:37 +0100 From: Jacob Thaisen jactha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CPHLING.DK Subject: Re: Phonetic transcription--help Hello, This may not be relevant but I'm wondering if you are aware that IPA fonts are available for wordprocessing packages like Word and WordPerfect. The best one publicly available (to my knowledge) can be downloaded from the homepage of the Summer Institute of Linguistics. The URL is : http://www.sil.org The advantage of using these particular fonts is that they can be used to generate almost any IPA symbol you like as they have a built-in mechanism for placing characters on top of one another. This means you can use any number of diacritics with a given symbol. Yours, ---------------------------------------------------------------- Jacob Thaisen Department of Linguistics University of Copenhagen Njalsgade 96 DK-2300 Copenhagen S Denmark ---------------------------------------------------------------- Unless you are a genius, it is best to aim at being intelligible - Anthony Hope, 'Dolly Dialogues' ---------------------------------------------------------------- e-mail: jactha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cphling.dk ---------------------------------------------------------------- On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, Alan Baragona wrote: X-posted to HEL-L and ADS-L As a medievalist with the usual peripheral training in linguistics, mostly historical, I'd like to ask the help of the real linguists and phoneticians on the list. The extent of my knowledge of phonetic transcription is the "broad" method used in textbooks like Pyles and Algeo, which is not always adequate for dialectical allophones. I have a student with a Texas accent who, like many Southerners and Westerners, simplifies the diphthong [ai] (among others). But I can't really transcribe her vowel as either [a] or [ae]. Her pronunciation of like is not a homophone of either lock [lak] or lack [laek] but is pretty much smack in the middle, as if she stops in the middle of the glide or rather sets her mouth to say the glide but holds the pure vowel. I don't really know how to transcribe her like without an approximation that doesn't do her justice and can potentially confuse the class. What do those of you who really know what you're doing use for this sound? Alan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 04:53:05 -0800 From: Judi Sanders jasanders[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: "to dis" JANE M SPALDING-JAMIESON wrote: Is "to dis" a verb now? Certainly among the youth of America it is. RHDAS has popular culture citations back to the early 80s for senses of to disrespect, to disparage, to affront. All of those are consistent with current uses on college campuses from coast to coast. Judi Sanders ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dr. Judi Sanders Professor, Communication Cal. State Polytechnic U., Pomona The Web: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders The College Slang Page: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders/slang ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:27:54 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: "zephyr" (= nothing) Scott Paauw wrote: Gerald Cohen wrote: I've come across "zephyr" with the meanng "nothing": _ St. Louis Post-Dispatch_, May l7, l997, p.34/1-3; title: "The Sky Is Not Falling": "A 150-pound hunk of aluminum...comes hurtling out of space and crashes on downtown's major artery. And what happens? Nothing. Nada. Zip. Zephyr. No human pancakes. No busted windshields. [etc.]...." I have no idea how the semantic development "zephyr" to "nothing" occurred. Can anyone help? This is just a guess, but it may be confusion with "cipher" (Brit. spelling cypher), which of course means zero. "Cipher" is an interesting suggestion. Another pure guess might be that it's an extension of the use of "wind" to mean airy nothingness, as in "Oaths are but words, and words but wind." Alan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:38:13 -0500 From: Orin Hargraves OKH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: Re: "zephyr" (= nothing) This is just a guess, but it may be confusion with "cipher" (Brit. spelling cypher), which of course means zero. *Zephyr* also sounds like the Arabic word for zero, *sifr*, which is used= , at least in N African dialects, in all the ways we use *zero*. It is also= the ancestor of cipher. But how it crept into contemporary English, I don= 't know. Orin Hargraves ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 08:41:28 -0500 From: Robert Ness ness[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU Subject: Re: "to dis" I assume that you have many answers by now, but if not: to dis: a clipping from disrespect, with functional shift from noun to verb. On Tue, 27 Jan 1998, JANE M SPALDING-JAMIESON wrote: Is "to dis" a verb now? I am a student of linguistics at U.PEI. in Canada, and have heard two instances of a slang term, wondering if anyone else has heard it, or knows about its origins: 1/ Last week, Will Smith on "Fresh Prince of Bel Air" tv show says to his girlfriend, "Are you dissin' me?" Apparent meaning is something like, Are you trying to get rid of me, or Are you disrespecting me? 2/ Here in Charlottetown, Angela Marchbank of PEI Special Olympics said to me, also last week, "If you don't get through on the phone, or if they say no to a donation ... just throw them all in a dis pile. The dis pile is what we throw in the garbage later." Dis- is listed in the Oxford dictionary as a prefix, which can mean rejected, among other things. But how did it become a word? Any thoughts? (I realize this is just slang, but sometimes yesterday's slang is today's serious vocabulary ... and I see in my peers a more and more informal attitude towards the English language, which at some point affects standard usage) - Jane Spalding-Jamieson jspaldingjam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]upei.ca (University of Prince Edward Island, Charlottetown, PEI, Canada) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 09:08:08 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: "zephyr" (= nothing) At 08:27 AM 1/28/98 -0500, you (baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vax.vmi.edu) wrote: I have no idea how the semantic development "zephyr" to "nothing" occurred. Can anyone help? This is just a guess, but it may be confusion with "cipher" (Brit. spelling cypher), which of course means zero. "Cipher" is an interesting suggestion. Another pure guess might be that it's an extension of the use of "wind" to mean airy nothingness, as in "Oaths are but words, and words but wind." Check zephyr in OED2 -- I did last night, and there are lots of derivative and applied senses having to do with lightness or nothingness -- a kind of light fabric, etc. Maybe (cipher) + (the idea that some nothing-words begin with z [zero, zip, the obscurely-derived but probably zero-related zilch]) + (zephyr's connotations of lightness/nothingness) = zepyhr-as-zero???? Is it clear that "zephyr" as it was originally quoted on this thread is an established usage, or a one-time thing (thus, perhaps, a de facto solecism)? Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Jan 1998 09:29:16 -0500 From: mmcdaniel[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INTERVAL-INTL.COM Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 25 Jan 1998 to 26 Jan 1998 Okay, here's a semantic question: How does one post a question to the list without it being rejected as not being a question for the list? I have tried multiple times to unsubscribe (without luck for some unknown reason). I have tried to ask the list to help me, but my posts are rejected. I even randomly picked a list member to write to personally for help. But here I am, still on the list. I hope some human eyes read this message and take me off the list. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 10:07:19 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Fornigate & Eatin' Ain't Cheatin' (new words) I submit that much of the text below is abosolutely of no eymological significance. If the phraseitself needs to be recorded, fine; the details that are loaded COULD be construed as someone's exercising his ppolitical animus. EATIN' AIN'T CHEATIN' Gosh, I hope this is over soon. This phrase (not in the RHHDAS) was also on the web in several newsgroups. This is from Christopher Caldwell's "Hill of Beans" column, the New York Press, Jan. 28-Feb 3, 1998, pg. 26, col. 1: She fell in love with Bill Clinton, even though their relationship consisted solely of blowjobs. The two almost had sex once, but then the President pulled back and said, "No, that's special." (How flattering.) (...) Anyone inclined to think that Lewinsky's version of the Clinton affair is a fantasy should keep in mind its details. Clinton is clearly an adherent of Robb's Rule--named after the prolific Virginia Senator Chuck Robb--that it's not adultery if only oral sex is involved. This interpretation seems to be the prevalent one among Southern politicians, who are apt to express it in its more apothegmatic formulation: _Eatin' ain't cheatin'_. "Eatin' ain't cheatin'" supposedly comes from a Kinky Friedman song and was popularized on the Don Imus radio show. I tried to get the full lyrics on the web, but got "404 File Not Found." Remember: "Among the New Words" is fine, but please, NO WOTY!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:09:16 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 25 Jan 1998 to 26 Jan 1998 At 09:29 AM 1/27/98 -0500, you wrote: Okay, here's a semantic question: How does one post a question to the list without it being rejected as not being a question for the list? I have tried multiple times to unsubscribe (without luck for some unknown reason). I have tried to ask the list to help me, but my posts are rejected. I even randomly picked a list member to write to personally for help. But here I am, still on the list. I hope some human eyes read this message and take me off the list. Thanks. Here's an answer. You get off the list by doing the exact same thing you did to get on the list, only with a slightly different command. Did you save your welcome-to message? Subscription and unsubbing info, and even a clickable unsub email, are also given on the ADS website, which you can find through and web search-engine. The exact page is: http://www2.et.byu.edu/~lilliek/ads/index.htm Members of email lists cannot unsubscribe each other. If they could, imagine what would sometimes ensue happen when they disagreed with each other in any intense way. Think about *that*, if you will!!! Maybe you should post your address, and someone who lives nearby can come over and type the two- or three-word command into your keyboard for you! Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 11:42:13 -0500 From: Steve Harper sharper[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FOTO.INFI.NET Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 25 Jan 1998 to 26 Jan 1998 Gee, what a nice reply. Is Greg always so warm and accomodating? At 11:09 1/28/98 -0500, you wrote: At 09:29 AM 1/27/98 -0500, you wrote: Okay, here's a semantic question: How does one post a question to the list without it being rejected as not being a question for the list? I have tried multiple times to unsubscribe (without luck for some unknown reason). I have tried to ask the list to help me, but my posts are rejected. I even randomly picked a list member to write to personally for help. But here I am, still on the list. I hope some human eyes read this message and take me off the list. Thanks. Here's an answer. You get off the list by doing the exact same thing you did to get on the list, only with a slightly different command. Did you save your welcome-to message? Subscription and unsubbing info, and even a clickable unsub email, are also given on the ADS website, which you can find through and web search-engine. The exact page is: http://www2.et.byu.edu/~lilliek/ads/index.htm Members of email lists cannot unsubscribe each other. If they could, imagine what would sometimes ensue happen when they disagreed with each other in any intense way. Think about *that*, if you will!!! Maybe you should post your address, and someone who lives nearby can come over and type the two- or three-word command into your keyboard for you! Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:13:29 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 25 Jan 1998 to 26 Jan 1998 At 11:42 AM 1/28/98 -0500, you wrote: Gee, what a nice reply. Is Greg always so warm and accomodating? 99.99% of the time, yes; check the archives. In fact, in the message you find cold and unaccommodating I gave the URL for the ADS webpage where one can unsub oneself without having to remember, or look up, the command, and conteact the list-owners. I've just scrolled through the archives from Jan 1 through 19 (most recent day archived), and there are nine or ten unsub requests sent to this list alone. Every other day somebody posts to the list to get off, when no list-members can do this for them. Multiply that by the number of lists a given person might be on -- several dozen at a time. That's a *lot* of futile offtopic traffic, day in and day out, for the hundreds of subscribers on any given list. The repeated posting of unsub requests to lists has been a major netiquette problem for years. And it's hard to avoid considering the possibility that "ye olde pigritude factor" might be involved here.... Do you recall Denizen's lovely unsub requests a couple of days into the new year? I could clip and repost a bit, but the FCC or somebody would maybe get after me. Best, Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 13:27:44 -0500 From: Larry Horn laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: "zephyr" (= nothing) At 9:08 AM -0500 1/28/98, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: ... Maybe (cipher) + (the idea that some nothing-words begin with z [zero, zip, the obscurely-derived but probably zero-related zilch]) + (zephyr's connotations of lightness/nothingness) = zepyhr-as-zero???? The second is the point I was going to make before Greg (not for the first time) beat me to the punch. I'm quite confident in speculating that the z-as-in-'zero' is at least part of the story, although the cypher subplot is interesting too. One of those antilogies we were throwing around a few years ago, since a cipher/cypher is originally (from the Arabic, and before that the Sanksrit) a zero (literally or figuratively) but then later any numeral figure, or any character, or code. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 15:58:23 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 25 Jan 1998 to 26 Jan 1998 On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Steve Harper wrote: Gee, what a nice reply. Is Greg always so warm and accomodating? Given the tone and content of the original message, I think Greg showed considerable restraint. Thanks, Greg. Jeutonne Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 16:53:14 -0500 From: frank abate abatef[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: "zephyr" (= nothing) Jerry Two random thoughts: 1. Alliterative with zip and zero. 2. Above, plus pure nonce. How many cites? Any pattern? Frank Abate ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 17:51:00 CST From: "Breland, Mary" mbreland[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HLG.EDU Subject: Re: Phonetic transcription--help The vowel Alan Baragona described sounds to me like one I have in my phonological system as a result of growing up in Mississippi. In my family, we referred to it as "flat-I" and used it as a shibboleth to distinguish between TV characters who were "real Southerners" and those who were "fake ." When I was learning IPA transcription (using a book by Pyles and Algeo) I was quite frustrated by the absence of a symbol to represent the sound I produced. I have both the diphthong [ai] and "flat-I" in my speech. The diphthong occurs before voiceless consonants in words such as "light" [lait], "wife" [waif], "rice" [rais], etc.; flat-I occurs before voiced consonants and in open syllables "lied," "hive," "rise," etc. I couldn't figure out a way to represent both sounds in transcribing my own speech. The closest representation I could come up with was [a:] to represent a lengthened monophthong, but I was not happy with it because it seemed to indicate something lower and farther back than what I believed I produced. I spent a good bit of time with my fingers in my mouth trying to find out what was going on in there. I decided, finally, that we had come up with the name "flat-I" because the tongue is held still and "flat," almost level or straight rather than raised or lowered very much like the mid-central lax vowel "uh" represented by a schwa but the mouth is more open than for "uh. " But there's more to it than tongue position; the lips are involved, also. The corners of the mouth, particularly the lower lip, are tensed and pulled out to the sides and slightly up as for [ae] and [i]. I finally settled on using an "upside-down a" to represent an open mid-central spread vowel. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 20:45:43 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: Phonetic transcription--help I think, as has been suggested, that the [a] now on the Pyles/Algeo flyleaf (the 1989 revision of the IPA) is pretty much this sound between [ae] and script-a, but I kind of like Edwin Duncan's use of a superscript schwa. It's interesting to a none linguist to find such matters still in flux, and I know my students are going to love reading these posts, especially the picture of Mary with her fingers in her mouth. Thanks. This has been very interesting. Alan B. At 05:51 PM 1/28/98 CST, Breland, Mary wrote: The vowel Alan Baragona described sounds to me like one I have in my phonological system as a result of growing up in Mississippi. In my family, we referred to it as "flat-I" and used it as a shibboleth to distinguish between TV characters who were "real Southerners" and those who were "fake ." When I was learning IPA transcription (using a book by Pyles and Algeo) I was quite frustrated by the absence of a symbol to represent the sound I produced. I have both the diphthong [ai] and "flat-I" in my speech. The diphthong occurs before voiceless consonants in words such as "light" [lait], "wife" [waif], "rice" [rais], etc.; flat-I occurs before voiced consonants and in open syllables "lied," "hive," "rise," etc. I couldn't figure out a way to represent both sounds in transcribing my own speech. The closest representation I could come up with was [a:] to represent a lengthened monophthong, but I was not happy with it because it seemed to indicate something lower and farther back than what I believed I produced. I spent a good bit of time with my fingers in my mouth trying to find out what was going on in there. I decided, finally, that we had come up with the name "flat-I" because the tongue is held still and "flat," almost level or straight rather than raised or lowered very much like the mid-central lax vowel "uh" represented by a schwa but the mouth is more open than for "uh. " But there's more to it than tongue position; the lips are involved, also. The corners of the mouth, particularly the lower lip, are tensed and pulled out to the sides and slightly up as for [ae] and [i]. I finally settled on using an "upside-down a" to represent an open mid-central spread vowel. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:41:36 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: Re: "dis" The discussion of the verb"dis" should include mention that it arose in the speech of African-Americans. Evidently the word is emotionally charged for many young African-Americans; "disrespecting" or, for short, "dissing" someone can be regarded with great seriousness and provoke a violent response. The example given by Clarence Major's _Juba to Jive_ (under "dissing") is: "Man, they were dissing us, so we jumped them." On a general note, the contribution of African-Americans to American speech has been considerable. A comprehensive treatment of this topic is still waiting to be written. --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 22:47:57 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 25 Jan 1998 to 26 Jan 1998 At 03:58 PM 1/28/98 -0500, you wrote: On Wed, 28 Jan 1998, Steve Harper wrote: Gee, what a nice reply. Is Greg always so warm and accomodating? Given the tone and content of the original message, I think Greg showed considerable restraint. Thanks, Greg. Jeutonne Brewer Well, I feel bad to say anything on a list ("in public") that could be construed as less than heartbleedingly mothertheresically generous, because from a couple of years' experience with a lot of lists, I well know that the truth is -- no matter what the situation or what leads up to a comment -- a certain percentage of folks will see only an attack and a victim, not a response to what in many of our cases must be hundreds of impossible list-transmitted unsub requests in this forum alone over the past couple of years. One usually ignores it, because that's the nicest and the laziest thing to do (always an alluring combo). But at a certain point one wonders what people could be thinking.... It's as if there's a big meeting in an auditorium and people are discussing things, and one after another individuals keep standing up and shouting out, "I forget where the door is and I have to leave now!!!!!" or "For God's sake, can't anyone tell me where the bathroom is?????", etc. Anyway, in my more jocular moments this is the allegory I construct to amuse myself.... Enough of this topic! Here's the URL for subscription commands again. When you get there follow the link to "ADS-L": http://www2.et.byu.edu/~lilliek/ads/index.htm Best to all, even clueless-would-be unsubbers, Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 18:25:06 -0800 From: Judi Sanders jasanders[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: cow-tow? -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I was asked today how to spell "cow-tow" and I couldn't find it in RHDAS or NDAS . . . probably because I couldn't spell it. I tried several possibilities without success (with a vague recollection that it might be spelled with a k). Does anybody know? Thanks, Judi Sanders Dr. Judi Sanders Professor, Communication Cal. State Polytechnic U., Pomona The Web: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders The College Slang Page: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders/slang ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:20:01 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: cow-tow? At 06:25 PM 1/23/98 -0800, you wrote: I was asked today how to spell "cow-tow" Most commonly kowtow. From the Chinese. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 23:20:07 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Kow-tow (Was Re: cow-tow?) That's a word I'll never forget.... When I was a grad student I taught vocab etc. for some Chinese-American high-school students in Queens over the summer one year, when they were preparing for the SAT. One word that was in the book I was given to teach from was kow-tow, which they were at first surprised to hear was from a version of Chinese for "knock/bump head" (on the ground, in a submissive bow). Then some of then said, O yeah, that's right, we know that phrase in Chinese.... It's not particularly US; OED2 cites it from the first half of the 19C, and those are UK cites. Greg D./NYU At 06:25 PM 1/23/98 -0800, you wrote: -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I was asked today how to spell "cow-tow" and I couldn't find it in RHDAS or NDAS . . . probably because I couldn't spell it. I tried several possibilities without success (with a vague recollection that it might be spelled with a k). Does anybody know? Thanks, Judi Sanders Dr. Judi Sanders Professor, Communication Cal. State Polytechnic U., Pomona The Web: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders The College Slang Page: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders/slang ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Jan 1998 11:26:27 +0700 From: Scott Paauw spaauw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RAD.NET.ID Subject: Re: cow-tow? Judi Sanders wrote: ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I was asked today how to spell "cow-tow" and I couldn't find it in RHDAS or NDAS . . . probably because I couldn't spell it. I tried several possibilities without success (with a vague recollection that it might be spelled with a k). Does anybody know? Try "kowtow." The word is a borrowing from Chinese. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Jan 1998 to 28 Jan 1998 ************************************************