Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 08:56:21 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: ESL/forks to the right/pudding & pie? Tom, I will not be able to respond to all counterexamples, but pudding and pie is part of a longer poem, and demands of rhythm and the like might easily break the heavier items to the right rule. On the other hand, I have never heard this freeze propnounced fully; I have always heard it /pUdn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]npay/, never /pUdIng[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]npay/. It is altogether possible that /pUdn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n/ is mentally construed as the bisyllabic first element. (I am using U = vowel in look [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] = schwa ng = velar nasal I = vowel in bit) I think the exceptions only prove but do not destroy the rule. >WOW! Dennis' explaination would sure useful in teaching ESL! >But what about pudding and pie? Pie and pudding sounds funny. > >Tom Uharriet > > >In case you missed it, Dennis' explaination follows: > >> I don't think this is a mundane question at all. Haj Ross once outlined a >> principle of 'myopia' which states that in what he called 'freezes' >> 'heavier' items go to the right. >> >> For example, if sex prevailed, why is it >> >> men and women >> >> but >> >> ladies and gentlemen >> >> Easy, Haj says, count the syllables. 'Women' is heavier than 'men,' but >> 'gentlemen' is heavier than 'ladies.' >> >> When words have equal numbers of syllables, count phonemes: >> >> back and forth (3 and 4) >> >> When they have equal numbers of phonemes, go for long and short, voiced >> versus voiceless, even dip into degree of obstruency >> >> thick and thin (voiced final segment, therefore longer) >> etc... >> >> So, how about knife and fork (which sounds right to me). >> >> Well, by phoneme count for me it's 3 (knife) to four (fork), but for the >> British (or those varieties with r-deletion) the 'fork' drops to 3 (with >> admitted compensatory lengthening, but, the 'knife' already has a diphthong >> which apparently wins out over the compenstorily lengthened vowel of 'fork' >> if that is the order which prevails there. >> >> Neat huh? >> >> Of course, I don't know the distribution. >> >> >> >> >> >> >I have a question which is, admittedly, >> >a bit mundane for the likes of the >> >great intellectuals on this list, >> >but, darn it, there's a bet ridin' on it! >> > >> >Has any work been done on a regional distribution >> >of usages of "fork and knife" vs. "knife and fork"? >> > >> >A few colleagues of mine claim that they use >> >"knife and fork" and the other variety seems strange. >> >Another colleague uses "fork and knife" and says, >> >to him, the other usage sounds, in his word, "British." >> > >> >Any insights, observations, or anecdotes are welcome, >> >and you may forward them to me personally, if you like. >> >I'll post a summary if the information warrants it. >> > >> >Thanks in advance! >> > >> >;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; >> >;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I ; >> >;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] ; >> >;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::; >> >;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ; >> >;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ; >> >;Chicago, IL 60607-7025 ; >> >;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX ; >> >;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; >> >utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736