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         ADS-L Digest - 26 Feb 1998 to 27 Feb 1998             98-02-28 00:01:18
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There are 14 messages totalling 789 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Executive privilege
  2. Brooklynese (2)
  3. thong (2)
  4. March hare (3)
  5. dialectal loanwords - mebos
  6. Zori redux [long]
  7. Rearend/seat (was Re: Butt (was Re: thong))
  8. March hare madness
  9. Thomas L. Clark
 10. Spelling Bee (long!)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:05:33 EST
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Executive privilege

     CSPAN's Washington Journal had on today the American University's Mark
Rozell, author of a book called EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE.  Rozell stated that
although the privilege has been used since George Washington's time, it
acquired the name "executive privilege" during the Eisenhower administration.
     William Safire's THE NEW LANGUAGE OF POLITICS didn't include the term.
It is, however, in SAFIRE'S NEW POLITICAL DICTIONARY  Citations from 1954 and
1958 are given.  Fred R. Shapiro found "executive privilege" in a 1940 U.S.
Court of Appeals case, _Glass v. Ickes_.
     Safire states that the _e_ in "executive privilege" should be capitalized
because it refers to the Office of the President.
     Any opinions/observations on this?
     Anyone read Rozell's book?

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:46:04 -0600
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Brooklynese

A week or so ago, there was a comment on "Brooklynese" pronuncations of
'third', 'join', etc.  The initial thread lay there lifeless, not even able
to aspire to b---thongness.  Other items in the query elicited some
discussion, but not Bunkerisms like 'terlet'.

By chance, my eye caught something in, of all places, AMERICAN SPEECH.  In
the fall 1996 issue, p. 331, David Schulman cites this poem:

Brooklyinese Champion 1926

I thought the winner had been found
  The day I heard a woman make
The butcher cut her off a pound
  Of fine and juicy soylern steak
.......

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Feb 1998 01:17:57 -0600
From:    Ed Deluzain <bethed[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.INTEROZ.COM>
Subject: Re: thong

In my neck of the woods, the thong bathing suit or underwear is referred to
as "anal floss."

Ed Deluzain

At 05:42 PM 2/26/98 -0500, you wrote:
>Has anyone else heard "butt floss" for the thong bathing suit? Heard from
>a mid-30s secretary in Marietta on the Ohio R.
>
>=======================================================================
>David Bergdahl          Ellis Hall 114c        Ohio University / Athens
>Associate Prof/English  tel:  (740) 593-2783   fax:  (740) 593-2818
>                        bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu
>                    http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
>=======================================================================
>
*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *
Ed Deluzain
bethed[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]interoz.com--Home
deluzhe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dolphin1.mosley.bay.k12.fl.us--School
Web Sites: http://interoz.com/usr/bethed--The Names Page
           http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/1912/
                --Mosley English Resources
*   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *   *

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Feb 1998 02:20:29 -0600
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: March hare

Barry (bapopik) wrote:

> -------------------------------------------
> MARCH HARE
>
>      It's almost March.  "March Madness" was posted a year ago.  "Mad as a
> March hare" is not in Christine Ammer's new book of idioms, and it's poorly
> explained in Bartlett's, where John Skelton and John Heywood are both cited.
> This item was also in my files from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle, Questions and
> Answers, 24 March 1929:
>
>      "Mad as a March hare."
>      Will you kindly inform me how the expression, "Mad as a March hare,"
> originated and where it is found?

                <big snip>

>       Our correspondent may have in mind the March hare of
> "Alice in Wonderland."

Bringing up the the subject of "the Mad Hatter", who shares the stage of
the Mad Tea Party with the March Hare and the Dormouse.

A long time ago, Isaac Asimov commented on the apparent insanity of
Isaac Newton's last years.  He thought it was highly probable that
Newton had gone mad as a result of mercury poisoning -- which certainly
wasn't unlikely, given that Newton did play around with mercury a lot.
Asimov went on to say that "mad as a hatter" had its origin in the fact
that hatmakers treated felt with mercury to get a more attractive pile.
Insanity in hatters was simply an occupational hazard.

Anyone have a sighting on whether Asimov was right about mad hatters?

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Feb 1998 00:44:18 -0800
From:    Kim & Rima McKinzey <rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET>
Subject: Re: Brooklynese

>A week or so ago, there was a comment on "Brooklynese" pronuncations of
>'third', 'join', etc.  The initial thread lay there lifeless, not even able
>to aspire to b---thongness. ...

Ok - thread continues.  In my youth in Brooklyn, I definitely remember our
Jr. High School principal making announcements to the "Boys and Goyls."  I
have no memory of the Bunker "terlet," though.  (Winthrop Jr. High, 1956-58)

Rima

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Feb 1998 18:51:47 +0900
From:    Daniel Long <dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP>
Subject: dialectal loanwords - mebos

I think the subject of "dialectal loanwords" is kind of interesting.  In
Japan, for example, the word *rafuransu* is listed as a dialect word in
a part of Toyama prefecture for "fire engine".  (A U.S. company called
American LaFrance used to make fire engines.)

But I have a question about a Japanese borrowing that may show regional
variation within the English world.  OED2 has the following entry for
*mebos*.  Considering the devoicing processes of high vowels in
Japanese, their story here makes perfect sense.  My question is just
this: Is this word known and used in South African English or it just
some obscure thing those wonderful and wacky UK lexicographers dug up?
There must be some South Africans on the list!

Danny Long

mebos (_______, Afrikaans _______). S. Afr. Also meebos.
[Afrikaans, prob. ad. Jap. umeboshi, a dried, preserved plum.]
A confection made from apricots dried, flattened or pulped, and
preserved in salt and sugar.

1793 tr. C. P. Thunberg's Trav. Europe, Afr. & Asia III. 120, I saw
several kinds of fruit, the produce of this country [sc. Japan], either
dried or preserved in yeast, in a mode which is, I fancy, only practised
at Japan or China. The fruit that was only dried, such as plumbs and the
like, was called Mebos.

1912 Northern Post 27 Sept. (Pettman), I have now come to the conclusion
that our old navigators became acquainted with this delicacy in Japan,
learned to like it, and afterwards at the Cape attempted to imitate it,
but used the fruit of apricot trees.., and that the word Meibos or
Meebosje had its origin in [Jap.] Umeboshi.
--
Daniel Long, Associate Professor     tel  +81-6-723-8297
Japanese Language Research Center    fax  +81-6-723-8302
Osaka Shoin Women's College         dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp
4-2-26 Hishiyanishi                 http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/
Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577-8550

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Feb 1998 09:26:01 -0500
From:    "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: thong

I agree. Two of the purdiest words I know are dupa (Polish for butt) and
bundas (Portuguese for butt). I wish we had one or the other (or both).

dInIs

>    "Butt" has to be one of the ugliest words in the language, and I cringe
>    every time I hear it.  What ever happened to "seat" and "rear end"?!

Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Feb 1998 13:13:01 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: March hare

At 2:20 AM -0600 2/27/98, Mike Salovesh wrote:

>
>Bringing up the the subject of "the Mad Hatter", who shares the stage of
>the Mad Tea Party with the March Hare and the Dormouse.
>
>A long time ago, Isaac Asimov commented on the apparent insanity of
>Isaac Newton's last years.  He thought it was highly probable that
>Newton had gone mad as a result of mercury poisoning -- which certainly
>wasn't unlikely, given that Newton did play around with mercury a lot.
>Asimov went on to say that "mad as a hatter" had its origin in the fact
>that hatmakers treated felt with mercury to get a more attractive pile.
>Insanity in hatters was simply an occupational hazard.
>
>Anyone have a sighting on whether Asimov was right about mad hatters?
>
I have no idea, but Martin Gardner invokes the same theory at the point of
his _The Annotated Alice_ at which he comments on the tea party.  (There's
also a nice discussion of the respective resemblances Tenniel's drawings of
the Mad Hatter, the March Hare, and the Dormouse bear to three early
20th-century philosophers at Cambridge University, one being Bertrand
Russell, if I recall correctly (my copy is hiding at the moment).

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Feb 1998 14:51:28 -0500
From:    "Patrick L. Courts" <courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AIT.FREDONIA.EDU>
Subject: Re: March hare

I ask any of you, have you ever met a sane hatter?

At 01:13 PM 2/27/98 -0500, you wrote:
>At 2:20 AM -0600 2/27/98, Mike Salovesh wrote:
>
>>
>>Bringing up the the subject of "the Mad Hatter", who shares the stage of
>>the Mad Tea Party with the March Hare and the Dormouse.
>>
>>A long time ago, Isaac Asimov commented on the apparent insanity of
>>Isaac Newton's last years.  He thought it was highly probable that
>>Newton had gone mad as a result of mercury poisoning -- which certainly
>>wasn't unlikely, given that Newton did play around with mercury a lot.
>>Asimov went on to say that "mad as a hatter" had its origin in the fact
>>that hatmakers treated felt with mercury to get a more attractive pile.
>>Insanity in hatters was simply an occupational hazard.
>>
>>Anyone have a sighting on whether Asimov was right about mad hatters?
>>
>I have no idea, but Martin Gardner invokes the same theory at the point of
>his _The Annotated Alice_ at which he comments on the tea party.  (There's
>also a nice discussion of the respective resemblances Tenniel's drawings of
>the Mad Hatter, the March Hare, and the Dormouse bear to three early
>20th-century philosophers at Cambridge University, one being Bertrand
>Russell, if I recall correctly (my copy is hiding at the moment).
>
>Larry
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:25:22 +0000
From:    Jim Rader <jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: Zori redux [long]

While the rest of you have gone on from huaraches and zoris to more
elevated topics such as butt thongs, I'm still thinking about zoris.

I don't know if anyone mentioned the note on_ zori_ that appeared in
_American Speech_ in fall, 1985 (by Edith Trager Johnson & C. Douglas
Johnson); it discussed the failure of dictionaries to list _zoris_
as a plural of _zori_ and gave a list of synonyms and their relative
frequency based on an informal survey.

I ran a quick Nexis search on _zori_, _zoris_, and _zories_.  The word is
less common than I would have thought.  The figures that follow were
done hastily and are probably not exact.  Cancelling out multiple
hits from reprinted articles, I got 39 newspaper hits for the form
_zori_.  Of these, 14 were from English-language newspapers published
in Japan, and hence are not valid for judging American use.  Of the
25 other occurences (some of which came from sources such as the
_Jerusalem Post_), nine were glossed in on way or another; there were
seven instances where _zori_ was pretty definitely plural.  Most of
the uses were attributive (e.g., _zori sandal_, _zori slipper_) and
most specified a Japanese cultural context.

A search for _zoris_, however, gave a very different result.  Again
cancelling out multiple hits, I got 38 cites; of these, 24 were from
California newspapers (of which three glossed the word) and one from
Hawaii.  The rest were scattered:  New Mexico (1), Florida (2), Texas
(1, in an article on Japanese loanwords by Garland Cannon), _Newsday_
(1), _New York Times_ (2), _Washington Post_ (2), _Footwear News_ , a
trade publication (2), _Christian Science Monitor (1), _Chicago
Tribune_ (1).  Almost all the occurrences lacked Japanese context and
referred to thongs/flip-flops.  A piece in the _San Diego
Union-Tribune for 5/18/84 gave a number of synonyms (thongs,
flip-flops, go-aheads, beach-walkers, sand-walkers, tar-shoes, shower
shoes).

Amazingly (to me), I found five cites for _zories_ as plural, in
scattered sources (_Los Angeles Times_, an Arizona paper, _Toronto
Star_, _Bergen (N.J.) Record_, _Cleveland Plain Dealer_, all
referring to flip-flops without Japanese context and three glossing
the word.  The strangest was the Plain Dealer cite (10/5/95), from a
q & a fashion column by Marylou Luther (syndicated?)--so strange it's
worth quoting in full:

-Dear Marylou:  When Conor O'Brien interviewed Isaac Mizrahi on "Late
-Night" about his movie "Unzipped," the designer mentioned a fashion
-item called zories.  What was he talking about?--E.O., Chicago
-Dear E.O.: --I had never heard of zories either, so I went straight
-to the source.  Mizrahi reports that the word is Brooklynese for
-flip-flops.  In case it ever comes up, flip-flops are go-aheads in
-Los Angeles.  In any dialect, they are a summertime favorite at the
-beach.  Mizrahi brough them to the runway. [A new chapter in the
annals of Brooklynese.]

The periodical cites were marginal (_zori_: 3, _zoris_: 2).  My
conclusion is that _zori_ is a regionalism (West Coast & Hawaii) and
even on the West Coast it may be fading because of the lexical
competetion.  I'm still wondering if the concept of a sandal held to
the foot by a Y-shaped thong was a Japanese import (along with the
word _zori_) or if the Japanese word was applied to something we
already had (and hence is a counterexample to my claim about Japanese
loanwords).

I'm also still amazed by the paucity of cites on Nexis.  I think I
found more cites for the word _osha_, even after weeding out all the
cases where Nexis failed to filter out OSHA or gave me the url for
OSHA.  Anyone on the list know what what _osha_ refers to
without looking it up on Nexis or in DARE?  I think DARE is the first
 dictionary I've seen _osha_ in.  Unfortunately, it gives no
etymology.  I'm still working on the history of this word.

Jim Rader

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Feb 1998 15:43:01 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Rearend/seat (was Re: Butt (was Re: thong))

    A great story, Bethany!  But hey, everybody, I was talking
    tongue-in-cheek when I offered alternatives to 'butt'; I suspect my
    childhood 'seat' (our family's unmarked term) and 'rear end' (a bit
    more risque) might be equally offensive to other people.  It's hard for
    us oldtimers to adjust to new terms, esp. those for body parts; the
    word in question has just always sounded "bad" to me--strictly an
    aesthetic judgment.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Feb 1998 16:30:26 +0000
From:    Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: March hare madness

Remarkable!  To think I never realized until now that Erasmus was so
fluent in English!

Peter

On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:37:10 EST Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM> wrote:

 MARCH HARE
>
>      It's almost March.  "March Madness" was posted a year ago.  "Mad
> as a March hare" is not in Christine Ammer's new book of idioms, and
> it's poorly explained in Bartlett's, where John Skelton and John
> Heywood are both cited. This item was also in my files from the
> Brooklyn Daily Eagle, Questions and Answers, 24 March 1929:
>
>      "Mad as a March hare."
>      Will you kindly inform me how the expression, "Mad as a March
> hare," originated and where it is found?
>      A. L. H.      Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable says the
> saying grew out of the fact that hares are usually shy and wild in
> March, which is their mating season.  Nuggets of Wisdom quotes the
> foregoing and adds:  "This explanation is discounted by a statement by
> Erasmus in 1542.  After using the expression, 'Mad as a March hare,'
> Erasmus says, 'Hares are wilder in marshes from the absence of hedges
> and cover.'  This indicates that in the days of Erasmus the saying was
> 'mad as a marsh hare.'  It is not difficult to see that 'marsh' might
> have been corrupted into 'March' after the original meaning of the
> word was lost sight of."  Our correspondent may have in mind the March
> hare of "Alice in Wonderland."

----------------------
Peter A. McGraw
Linfield College
McMinnville, Oregon
pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linfield.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Feb 1998 17:14:16 -0800
From:    Grant Smith <gsmith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EWU.EDU>
Subject: Thomas L. Clark

I am sad to report that Tom Clark of UNLV, a past president of ADS, and
long time member of ANS, passed away yesterday, 2/26, after a lingering
illness.  He was from the Spokane area and an old friend as well as
colleague.

I have no information at this time about memorial arrangements.

Grant W. Smith
VP, American Name Society

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 27 Feb 1998 22:30:53 EST
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Spelling Bee (long!)

     The "spelling bee" is a great American institution, yet the research on
it has been shoddy, and nearly non-existent.  This posting will correct that.
     (I may lecture on the "spelling bee" at the ADS in January and publish
this in book form--I don't know yet.)
     Spelling contests burst upon the scene to form a national spelling mania
in the spring of 1875.  It's so forgotten now, however, that when the authors
of AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS chose their word-of-the-year for 1875, they
ignored "spelling bee" (which doesn't appear anywhere in the book) and went
with the very trivial "P. D. Q."
     In THE AMERICAN LANGUAGE, H. L. Mencken states on page 116 that spelling-
bee "and a hundred and one other such compounds were in daily use before the
Revolution."  In Supplement One, pages 202-203, "spinning-bee" is traced to
1769, "husking-bee" to 1816, "apple-bee" to 1827, "quilting-bee" to 1832,
"logging-bee" and "raising-bee" to 1836, "pigeon-picking-bee" to 1841,
"paring-bee" to 1845, "cellar-digging-bee" and "sewing-bee" to 1856, and
"spelling-bee" to 1875.  "All of them are probably older, especially
_spelling-bee_," Mencken says.  In Supplement Two, page 304, note 4:

     The spelling-bee was promoted by Noah Webster's famous blue-black
speller, for many years the only book, save the Bible, in general circulation
in the country.  But the name _spelling-bee_, though it had congeners running
back to the Revolutionary era, is not recorded until the 1870s.  Before that,
beginning in the 30s, _spelling-class_, _-match_ or _-school_ was used.
Introduced by the radio, the _spelling-bee_ had a brief but furious vogue in
England in the late 1930s.

     The new Flexner-Soukhanov SPEAKING FREELY leaves out "spelling bee"
entirely!  Flexner's LISTENING TO AMERICA has "Husking Bees, Quilting Bees,
and Spelling Bees" on pages 316-317:

     _Spelling bees_ were a New England invention, very popular after the
Civil War.  The _National Spelling Bee_ was inaugurated by the _Louisville
Courier-Journal_ in 1925 and continued under the Scripps-Howard newspapers
after 1939
======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (2/27/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 25 Feb 1998 to 26 Feb 1998             98-02-27 00:00:14
This message contains more text than QuickMail can display. The entire message
 has been enclosed as a file.

There are 23 messages totalling 619 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Thong (sandals)
  2. hurache?  Huarache!
  3. Fruit boots (was thongs/zoris) (2)
  4. RE>Fruit boots (was thongs/zoris)
  5. NADS on the web
  6. RE>"Till the last dog dies" (3)
  7. last dog
  8. footwear
  9. thong (5)
 10. Butt (was Re: thong) (2)
 11. Gay nineties; United States of America; March hare
 12. RE>Re: RE>"Till the last dog dies" (2)
 13. Rearend/seat (was Re: Butt (was Re: thong)) (2)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 1998 00:04:48 -0500
From:    Alice Faber <faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU>
Subject: Thong (sandals)

Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU> wrote:

| At 3:03 AM -0600 2/25/98, Mike Salovesh wrote:
| >
| >Of course, we already had sandals . . . but the Japanese word "zori" has
| >become so accepted that it now takes a regular English plural, as in
| >"zoris".  (Japanese would have "one zori", "two zori", or "many zori".)
| >Of course, zori (flat rubber or plastic soles held to the foot with a
| >Y-shaped thong designed to pass through the space between the big toe
| >and the next one) have latterly been acquiring another label, "thong
| >sandals", perhaps capitalizing on the minimal titillation that might
| >carry over from "thong bikinis".
| >
| Actually, 'thong' was in my vocabulary for those rubber beach shoes long
| before 'zori'; this was on Long Island and in California in the late
| 1960's.  Rather than "capitalizing on the minimal titillation" from thong
| bikinis, I take the use of the longer "thong sandals" to be a classic
| retronym (cf. acoustic guitar, analog watch, natrual turf, biological
| mother, World War I), in which a previously unmodified label takes on a
| modifier (or in the "thong" case, a head) to distinguish it from a new
| cultural innovation that invades its referential space.  If I want to make
| it clear I'm talking about something to wear on my feet, it would behoove
| me to specify "thong sandals" rather than "thongs" tout court.

I'm with Larry on this one. I grew us in the New York area in the 50s/60s.
Beach and pool sandals were always called "thongs". I never encountered the
word "zori" until I moved to Texas for graduate school in the mid 1970's; my
first encounter with the term was via a classmate from northern California. It
hadn't occurred to me that the term "thong" might have been usurped from the
bathing suits (when was it that we first started reading about thong suits [in
Brazil?]?).

Alice Faber

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 1998 02:16:31 -0600
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: hurache?  Huarache!

Larry Horn wrote:
>

> Actually, 'thong' was in my vocabulary for those rubber beach shoes long
> before 'zori'; this was on Long Island and in California in the late
> 1960's.  Rather than "capitalizing on the minimal titillation" from thong
> bikinis, I take the use of the longer "thong sandals" to be a classic
> retronym (cf. acoustic guitar, analog watch, natrual turf, biological
> mother, World War I), in which a previously unmodified label takes on a
> modifier (or in the "thong" case, a head) to distinguish it from a new
> cultural innovation that invades its referential space.  If I want to make
> it clear I'm talking about something to wear on my feet, it would behoove
> me to specify "thong sandals" rather than "thongs" tout court.
>
> Larry

This is NOT a disagreement or an argument; it's a reflection of
different experiences.  "Zori" came into my own vocabulary in 1952/53,
when I lived in Japan and Korea for a year -- courtesy of the U.S. Army.

Maybe that biased what I saw and remembered in U.S. stores afterward.  I
have a clear memory of zori, labeled as such, being sold in a Chicago
Walgreen's drugstore I frequented before my 1955 marriage. I remember
commenting to my fiance that it was nice to see that "familiar" word
properly applied.

You are quite right to point out that my memory lapsed regarding
thongs.  With your reminder, now I do remember seeing a different label
in California stores in the 1960s.  My reaction was "I wonder why these
people are calling zori 'thongs'.  Must be some kind of lingering
xenophobia from World War II that makes them reluctant to use a Japanese
loanword."  NOTE:  No, that's not a reflection on California bias.  It
reflects MY bias at the time.

Anyhow, I retract my misattribution of any association between thongs as
footgear and thongs as beachwear.  (Surely not SWIMwear.)  I still
wonder why people call them thongs, when they "really" are zori.

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:42:48 -0500
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Fruit boots (was thongs/zoris)

When I was a grad student in Fayetteville, Ark.,  about 1960-61, we
referred to certain kinds of footware as "fruit boots." I have not heard
that for many years. I picked the term up from a gay man from Columbus,
Mo. Is the term still around? Was it widespread?

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 1998 09:05:19 -0500
From:    Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: Fruit boots (was thongs/zoris)

> When I was a grad student in Fayetteville, Ark.,  about 1960-61, we
> referred to certain kinds of footware as "fruit boots." I have not heard
> that for many years. I picked the term up from a gay man from Columbus,
> Mo. Is the term still around? Was it widespread?

We have eight cites in HDAS for this term, from 1960 to 1982. I don't
think I've heard the term myself recently.

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:26:05 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: RE>Fruit boots (was thongs/zoris)

> From: Bethany K. Dumas
> I picked the term up from a gay man from Columbus, Mo.

I think you probably mean Columbia, Mo. Yes?

When I was growing up in Missouri, they were always thongs, but "flip-flops"
 started creeping in the older I got. I am now at the point where I start to
 say" thongs", then mumble "flip-flops" and kind of point at the feet or the
 footwear in question, to clear up confusion about what kind of thong I am
 referring to. The Victoria's Secret catalog has done a lot to bring thong
 underwear to the attention of America at large.

I have never heard "zoris" and God forbid I should now have three different
 words to choose from when referring to them. I refuse to wear them, anyway,
 because I cannot stand the flip-flopping sound they make.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]jerrynet.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 1998 11:28:40 EST
From:    Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: NADS on the web

Thanks to Grant Barrett's painstaking efforts, the new issue of the Newsletter
of the American Dialect Society, vol. 30 No. 1 for January 1998, is now
available at our website

www.jerrynet.com/ads/index.htm

The format is different from the print (my hopes to preserve the original with
the HTML generator in PageMaker 6.5 were far from fulfilled), but the content
is the same. Two items in the print newsletter aren't in the web version
because those items are elsewhere on the website. These items are the news
about the 1997 Words of the Year, and the constitution and bylaws.

We will do this for future issues of NADS. With this initial experience, I'll
be able to provide Grant with the material in better form. And it will be on
our website at the same time it's in the mail for ADS members.

If you should prefer *not* to bother with the print version, let me know and
I'll remove you from the USmail list for future issues.

Your comments on this new feature are welcome!

- Allan Metcalf
Executive Secretary
American Dialect Society

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 1998 08:34:21 -0800
From:    Devon Coles <dcoles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HORIZON.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: RE>"Till the last dog dies"

Grant Smith wrote:




>Peanuts strips . . .  "Boy, that kid will stick around until the last dog
>is hung."
>
>"until the last dog is hung" must be considerably older than Peanuts.  I
>remember my father using the phrase (late 40s in Bellingham, WA).
>
>Yes, indeed. My 78-year old mother tells me this expression was around in
the 1920s (Toronto, Ontario) and she remembers it vividly as 'til the last
dog is dead and the rope is put away.'
>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 1998 12:08:42 -0500
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: RE>"Till the last dog dies"

At 08:34 AM 2/26/98 -0800, several successive people wrote:
>>>Peanuts strips . . .  "Boy, that kid will stick around until the last dog
>>>is hung."
>>
>>"until the last dog is hung" must be considerably older than Peanuts.  I
>>remember my father using the phrase (late 40s in Bellingham, WA).
>>
>Yes, indeed. My 78-year old mother tells me this expression was around in
>the 1920s (Toronto, Ontario) and she remembers it vividly as 'til the last
>dog is dead and the rope is put away.'
>

I've been wondering about this locution in spare moments, and am away from
my dictionaries today.... I don't believe anyone addressed the following
questions on this thread yet (he wrote, crossing his fingers):

(1) What kind of activity (if jocular) does this actually refer to? When do
people hang dogs? Or is it just a joke-scenario that never happens? If so,
what's the point of the joke? It certainly adds an unintended new overtone
to "hang-dog"....

(2) Isn't the past participle of hang "hung" in the phsyical sense of the
verb, and "hanged" in the sense of executing by rope? Or is that some just
normativism that I just happen to have seen arguments for a number of times
over the years? But nobody has mentioned any usage of "till the last dog is
hanged"....

Confusedly,

Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:03:59 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: last dog

Here's something that I think is an extension of the expression: At
 science-fiction fan conventions, there are typically
"Dead Dog" events -- DD party, DD dinner, DD filking* -- that come at the very
 end of the (typically) weekend, when all
the regular scheduled events are over and the regular programming is done or
 winding down, for the diehards who
want to prolong the socializing as long as possible.

* filksinging [sic], the activity of singing filk music, which is the genre of
 (originally folk-based) music arising out of the
subculture of sf/fantasy fans. See http://www.hooked.net/~kirib/filkfaq.html .

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 1998 10:58:58 -0800
From:    Peter Richardson <prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: footwear

To thongs, zoris, and flip-flops add "go-aheads," so called, as I
remember, because "ahead" was a much better direction to go in the things
than "behind." At least that was the explanation I received when I
questioned the word upon first hearing it. All these but zoris were
current in rural northern Illinois in the late 50s.

Peter Richardson

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:42:34 -0500
From:    David Bergdahl <bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: thong

Has anyone else heard "butt floss" for the thong bathing suit? Heard from
a mid-30s secretary in Marietta on the Ohio R.

=======================================================================
David Bergdahl          Ellis Hall 114c        Ohio University / Athens
Associate Prof/English  tel:  (740) 593-2783   fax:  (740) 593-2818
                        bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu
                    http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl
=======================================================================

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:38:21 -0500
From:    Evan Morris <words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM>
Subject: Re: RE>"Till the last dog dies"

Various people wrote:

>>>>Peanuts strips . . .=A0 "Boy, that kid will stick around until the la=
st dog
>>>>is hung."

Has anyone here actually seen this particular strip?  It strikes me as ve=
ry
uncharacteristic of the usual tone of _Peanuts_.=20

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 1998 15:08:43 -0800
From:    Judi Sanders <jasanders[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU>
Subject: Re: thong

Yeah, "butt floss" is used for thong bathing suits in CA . . . and thong
 underwear.

Judi Sanders


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dr. Judi Sanders
Professor, Communication
Cal. State Polytechnic U., Pomona
The Web:  http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders
The College Slang Page:  http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders/slang
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:14:52 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: thong

    "Butt" has to be one of the ugliest words in the language, and I cringe
    every time I hear it.  What ever happened to "seat" and "rear end"?!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 1998 16:03:28 +0000
From:    Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: thong

You mean as in "seat floss" or "rear end floss"?

C'mon, Beverly, get real!

Peter

On Thu, 26 Feb 1998 18:14:52 -0500 Beverly Flanigan
<FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU> wrote:

>     "Butt" has to be one of the ugliest words in the language, and I
> cringe     every time I hear it.  What ever happened to "seat" and
> "rear end"?!

----------------------
Peter A. McGraw
Linfield College
McMinnville, Oregon
pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linfield.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 1998 17:48:34 -0500
From:    Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: thong

> Has anyone else heard "butt floss" for the thong bathing suit? Heard from
> a mid-30s secretary in Marietta on the Ohio R.

I first heard _butt floss_ in 1994 from a Miami-based political
science professor. I think we've accumulated three or four more
examples since then, most recently from the 1997 book _Buzzwords,_
about L.A.-speak.

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 1998 19:08:39 -0500
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Butt (was Re: thong)

On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

>     "Butt" has to be one of the ugliest words in the language, and I cringe
>     every time I hear it.  What ever happened to "seat" and "rear end"?!

You mean as in "Seat out, would you!" or "Rear end out, would you!"

Peter's right, Beverly -- get real!

Bethany

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:37:10 EST
From:    Bapopik <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Gay nineties; United States of America; March hare

GAY NINETIES

     I was recently asked about the posting I made on "Gay Nineties" (written
after new year's of 1997).  It should be in the ADS-L archives.  At that time,
I stated that Richard Vincent Culter of LIFE magazine (the humor magazine, not
the picture news magazine) coined the phrase about 1925.
     A recent checking of some other portions of my files turned up this
confirmation, from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle, Questions and Answers, 10 March
1929:

     The "Gay Nineties."
     Kindly let me know through your paper how and from what sources the
expression, "The Gay Nineties" originated, and also to what period of time it
refers.
     MRS. R. SHIELDS.
     "The Gay Nineties" was the title of a series appearing in one of the
humorous papers--Life, if we mistake not--and afterward put out in book form.
The pictures represented the dress, manners and customs of the period from
1890 to 1900.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

     My "America Papers" are indeed massive, and I haven't had time to look
through them all.  I haven't had the time to recheck my Yankee Doodle parodies
and the humor magazines THE LANTERN and YANKEE NOTIONS for "canoodle"
antedate, either.  Heck, I'm goin' to Guatemala next week and I haven't packed
a thong.
     "Is the Name _United States_ Singular or Plural?" by Allen Walker Read is
in NAMES, vol. 22, no. 3, Sept. 1974, pp. 129-136.  I have a ton of stuff on
this topic that the paper doesn't mention.
    "THE NAME 'UNITED STATES OF AMERICA'" by Edmund C. Burnett was in the
AMERICAN HISTORICAL REVIEW, Notes and Suggestions, vol. 31, no. 1, Oct. 1925,
pp. 79-81.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
MARCH HARE

     It's almost March.  "March Madness" was posted a year ago.  "Mad as a
March hare" is not in Christine Ammer's new book of idioms, and it's poorly
explained in Bartlett's, where John Skelton and John Heywood are both cited.
This item was also in my files from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle, Questions and
Answers, 24 March 1929:

     "Mad as a March hare."
     Will you kindly inform me how the expression, "Mad as a March hare,"
originated and where it is found?
     A. L. H.
     Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable says the saying grew out of the
fact that hares are usually shy and wild in March, which is their mating
season.  Nuggets of Wisdom quotes the foregoing and adds:  "This explanation
is discounted by a statement by Erasmus in 1542.  After using the expression,
'Mad as a March hare,' Erasmus says, 'Hares are wilder in marshes from the
absence of hedges and cover.'  This indicates that in the days of Erasmus the
saying was 'mad as a marsh hare.'  It is not difficult to see that 'marsh'
might have been corrupted into 'March' after the original meaning of the word
was lost sight of."  Our correspondent may have in mind the March hare of
"Alice in Wonderland."

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 1998 20:12:52 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: RE>Re: RE>"Till the last dog dies"

From: Evan Morris
> Has anyone here actually seen this particular strip?  It strikes me as very
 uncharacteristic of the
> usual tone of _Peanuts_.

Please. I was merely remembering the strip, but I would bet you a thick steak it
 exists. Somebody somewhere still has those Peanuts books to prove it.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]jerrynet.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:27:55 EST
From:    RonButters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Butt (was Re: thong)

In a message dated 2/26/98 7:09:35 PM, dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU wrote:

<<On Thu, 26 Feb 1998, Beverly Flanigan wrote:

>     "Butt" has to be one of the ugliest words in the language, and I cringe
>     every time I hear it.  What ever happened to "seat" and "rear end"?!

You mean as in "Seat out, would you!" or "Rear end out, would you!"

Peter's right, Beverly -- get real!>>

Dear Wordgang:
I'm not about to change my name to Ronald Rearenders, I'll tell you what!
Sincerely,
Ronaldo de Mantequilla

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 26 Feb 1998 21:36:49 -0500
From:    Evan Morris <words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM>
Subject: Re: RE>Re: RE>"Till the last dog dies"

At 08:12 PM 2/26/98 -0500, Grant Barrett wrote:

>From: Evan Morris
>> Has anyone here actually seen this particular strip?=A0 It strikes me =
as very
uncharacteristic of the
>> usual tone of _Peanuts_.
>
>Please.

Please?  I think you want the Valspeak thread.

> I was merely remembering t
======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (2/26/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 24 Feb 1998 to 25 Feb 1998             98-02-26 00:00:35
There are 15 messages totalling 365 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. "Till the last dog dies"
  2. hurache?  Huarache! (2)
  3. CD-ROM Dictionaries
  4. CD-ROM dictionaries (6)
  5. Usage Newsletter Topic
  6. RE>"Till the last dog dies" (4)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Feb 1998 02:20:39 EST
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: "Till the last dog dies"

     "Mugger" (a Conservative columnist, probably publisher Russ Smith) writes
in this week's NEW YORK PRESS, Feb. 25--March 3, 1998, pg. 6, col. 4:

The _Washington Post_'s Mary McGrory, a bleeding heart till the last dog
dies...

     And on page 9, col. 1:

Begala wasn't the only exile invited to the Last Dogs club, as Howard Fineman
dubbed it in _Newsweek_...

     This COULD be the phrase-of-the-year.  Anyone read _Newsweek_?
     In the New York Times, 4 May 1997, section 4, pg. 15, William Safire
wrote that "The name of the game is 'Stonewall'...Deny till the last dog
dies."
     A 12 February 1998 article by Walter Shapiro on USA TODAY Online
(www.usatoday.com) ended:

     Six years ago, his campaign in tatters, Clinton gave the speech of his
life at an Elks Club in Dover, telling New Hampshire voters that he would
remember their support until "the last dog died."  Tuesday night, Clinton did
not rise to those majestic heights, but neither did he falter in his moment of
supreme peril.

     The California Folklore Quarterly (now Western Folklore), July 1946,
"Folk Sayings in a Pioneer Family of Western Oregon," pg. 230, has:

5.  He'll stay till the last dog's hung.
     He never leaves until there is no longer a pretext for staying.

     This is even after the fat lady has sung.  This is absolutely the bitter
end.
     I feel for Buddy!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Feb 1998 03:03:11 -0600
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: hurache?  Huarache!

Jim Rader wrote:

> If Japanese gets chic enough, and enough people
> in the Western Hemisphere learn some, maybe English and Spanish will
> start borrowing Japanese words for things we already have.  But I
> wouldn't hold my breath waiting.

Of course, we already had sandals . . . but the Japanese word "zori" has
become so accepted that it now takes a regular English plural, as in
"zoris".  (Japanese would have "one zori", "two zori", or "many zori".)
Of course, zori (flat rubber or plastic soles held to the foot with a
Y-shaped thong designed to pass through the space between the big toe
and the next one) have latterly been acquiring another label, "thong
sandals", perhaps capitalizing on the minimal titillation that might
carry over from "thong bikinis".

Do Japanese words also carry over into Spanish?  OK, one block from the
first Internet Cafe in Guatemala City there is a place called "Sushi",
which is a sushi bar, of course.  Not to mention zori themselves, sold
under that name in such places as the Pais stores that sort of resemble
supermarkets.

So you don't have to hold your breath: Japanese loans are already making
it here.

Loan words, that is.  Never mind the current currency crises in Asia.

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Feb 1998 08:46:05 -0500
From:    Orin Hargraves <OKH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: CD-ROM Dictionaries

Two dictionaries not on your list are:

Longman Interactive American Dictionary (Longman). A learner's dictionary=
=2E
No etys, but some fun "live-action" videos for ESL students with
archetypally bad acting.

Longman Dictionary of the English Language, on a CD-ROM called Infopedia =
UK
(Softkey).

Orin Hargraves

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:33:14 -0500
From:    Enid Pearsons <epearsons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RANDOMHOUSE.COM>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM dictionaries

For Danny Long (and FYI for others)

And don't forget the Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary on
CD-ROM.  If you can't get it where you are, let me know, give me your
snail-mail address, and I'll see to it that you get one.

Enid Pearsons
Reference & Information Publishing
Random House, Inc.
201 East 50th Street
New York, NY 10022

))))))))) Previous Notes Mail
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
To:     ADS-L [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
cc:     (bcc: Enid Pearsons/Trade/RandomHouse)
From:  dlong [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP
Date:  02/24/98 08:55 PM
Subject:  CD-ROM dictionaries




I am looking for English dictionaries on CD-ROM.  I want to do
electronic searches (of etymologies and other things).  I have the
following four.  Does anyone know of others available?  Thank you.
Danny Long
(1994) Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th ed.(CD-ROM).
Merriam-Webster.
(1992) American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 3rd ed.
(CD-ROM).  Houghton Mifflin.
(1992) Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd. ed. (CD-ROM).  Oxford University
Press.
(1994) Webster's New World Dictionary, 3rd college ed. (CD-ROM). Simon
and Schuster.
--
Daniel Long, Associate Professor     tel  +81-6-723-8297
Japanese Language Research Center    fax  +81-6-723-8302
Osaka Shoin Women's College         dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp
4-2-26 Hishiyanishi                 http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/
Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577-8550

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 25 Feb 1997 09:24:00 -0600
From:    Thomas Creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM dictionaries

Danny

Also available:

Random House Webster's Unabridged Dictionary:  Based on the Second
Printed Edition, Newly Revised and Updated 1996

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:30:25 -0600
From:    Alan R Slotkin <ASLOTKIN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU>
Subject: Usage Newsletter Topic

Chuck Meyers has suggested the following as a topic for the next issue of the
Usage Newsletter:   "How to use the Internet to study and teach usage."

I'd appreciate any submissions.

Thanks.

Alan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alan R. Slotkin
Professor of English/English Major Adviser
Box 5053, TTU
Cookeville, TN 38505
931-372-3262

aslotkin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tntech.edu
http://gemini.tntech.edu/~aslotkin

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:38:10 -0600
From:    "Alvin L. Gregg" <agregg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TWSUVM.UC.TWSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM dictionaries

Dear Enid,

I read your comment to Danny Long on the ADS-L.  I wonder if the CD-ROM of
the unabridged Random House Dictionary has been improved since I got one
several years ago.  I was somewhat disappointed in search mechanism, etc.

Sincerely,

Alvin L. Gregg
Department of English
Wichita State University
Wichita, KS 67260-0014

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:23:19 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: RE>"Till the last dog dies"

I was a big Charles Schultz fan as I kid and I distinctly remember one of the
 compilations of Peanuts strips had one with one of the characters (Lucy, I
 believe), saying about another something like "Boy, that kid will stick around
 until the last dog is hung." Snoopy, of course, got an appropriately aghast
 look on his face.

I'm not trying to source the saying, just remembering.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:12:19 -0800
From:    Grant Smith <gsmith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EWU.EDU>
Subject: Re: RE>"Till the last dog dies"

Peanuts strips . . .  "Boy, that kid will stick around until the last dog
is hung."

"until the last dog is hung" must be considerably older than Peanuts.  I
remember my father using the phrase (late 40s in Bellingham, WA).

Grant W. Smith
Eastern Washington University

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Feb 1998 12:15:12 -0500
From:    Enid Pearsons <epearsons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RANDOMHOUSE.COM>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM dictionaries

I hope this is not considered spam, but since several of you have inquired
about how to get the RHW Unabridged CD-ROM, the easiest thing for me to do
is to post a single answer:

Price:  $39.95
Ordering:  voice phone:  1-800-733-3000 (RH warehouse in Westminster, Md.)
ISBN:  0-679-44998-1



))))))))) Previous Notes Mail
((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
To:     ADS-L [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
cc:     (bcc: Enid Pearsons/Trade/RandomHouse)
From:  agregg [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] TWSUVM.UC.TWSU.EDU
Date:  02/25/98 10:38 AM
Subject:  Re: CD-ROM dictionaries




Dear Enid,
I read your comment to Danny Long on the ADS-L.  I wonder if the CD-ROM of
the unabridged Random House Dictionary has been improved since I got one
several years ago.  I was somewhat disappointed in search mechanism, etc.
Sincerely,
Alvin L. Gregg
Department of English
Wichita State University
Wichita, KS 67260-0014

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:01:39 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: hurache?  Huarache!

At 3:03 AM -0600 2/25/98, Mike Salovesh wrote:
>
>Of course, we already had sandals . . . but the Japanese word "zori" has
>become so accepted that it now takes a regular English plural, as in
>"zoris".  (Japanese would have "one zori", "two zori", or "many zori".)
>Of course, zori (flat rubber or plastic soles held to the foot with a
>Y-shaped thong designed to pass through the space between the big toe
>and the next one) have latterly been acquiring another label, "thong
>sandals", perhaps capitalizing on the minimal titillation that might
>carry over from "thong bikinis".
>
Actually, 'thong' was in my vocabulary for those rubber beach shoes long
before 'zori'; this was on Long Island and in California in the late
1960's.  Rather than "capitalizing on the minimal titillation" from thong
bikinis, I take the use of the longer "thong sandals" to be a classic
retronym (cf. acoustic guitar, analog watch, natrual turf, biological
mother, World War I), in which a previously unmodified label takes on a
modifier (or in the "thong" case, a head) to distinguish it from a new
cultural innovation that invades its referential space.  If I want to make
it clear I'm talking about something to wear on my feet, it would behoove
me to specify "thong sandals" rather than "thongs" tout court.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Feb 1998 13:17:53 -0600
From:    Joan Houston Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: RE>"Till the last dog dies"

DARE has "last dog is hung, until the" with quotes going back to 1902.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:25:53 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: RE>"Till the last dog dies"

    "Peanuts" goes back to the early '50s, as I well recall, so Charles
    Schulz probably grew up with the "dog dies/is hung" phrase too; if DARE
    dates it to 1902, Schulz could have heard it in the '30s, when he was
    young.  He's from St. Paul--any ideas on a regional origin for the
    phrase?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Feb 1998 14:42:21 EST
From:    Ron Butters <RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM dictionaries

are any of the CD-ROM dictionaries available for mac?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 25 Feb 1997 15:44:20 -0600
From:    Thomas Creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>
Subject: Re: CD-ROM dictionaries

MWC10 CDROM will run on either PC or Mac

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Feb 1998 to 25 Feb 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (2/25/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 23 Feb 1998 to 24 Feb 1998             98-02-25 00:00:16
There are 10 messages totalling 361 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Chocolate in Guatemala ???
  2. hurache
  3. Slimed (6)
  4. WOTY Posted
  5. CD-ROM dictionaries

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Feb 1998 00:39:13 -0600
From:    Mike Salovesh <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Chocolate in Guatemala ???

Barry A. Popik wrote:

>      From March 5-20th I'll be in Guatemala (no internet!), touring the Mayan
> sites and investigating the origin of "chocolate."  There is a safety risk,
> and it was a tough choice between being robbed in Guatemala or dying from
> anthrax poisoning on the New York City subways.

Now you're walking in my bailiwick, Barry.  I've been doing fieldwork in
Guatemala and Mexico for many years.

If you're looking for the origin of chocolate _beans_, of course there
are some plantations in Guatemala.  But if you're true to your metier,
you must be talking about the _word_ chocolate . . .  and you'll be at
least a thousand miles southeast of where the word came into European
speech.  Its origins are in Nahuatl, the language of central Mexico.

Nahuatl was spoken by the Mexica, the inhabitants of the city of
Tenochtitlan.  They were the people we usually call the "Aztecs", and
the heart of their city became the center of Mexico City.  The ancient
inhabitants of Guatemala spoke various languages of the Maya family.
Today, roughly 60% of the people of Guatemala grow up with some one of
23 extant Maya languages as their first language.  As far as I know,
every single one of those languages uses some form of Nahuatl loanword
for chocolate.

Among Maya speakers, infusions of a mixture of chocolate, cinnamon, and
coffee are served on a number of ceremonial occasions, including fiesta
celebrations, marriages, curing cermonies, and other rituals.  That
beverage is usually NOT called "chocolate"; the tendency is to use a
word also applied to medicine, potions, and home-brewed alcohol.  When
Guatemalan Indians speak of chocolate, using either a direct loan from
Nahuatl or a form derived from the loan that took root in Mexican
Spanish, they mean the growing plant, or chocolate beans, or the mass
that comes from grinding those beans, or a heavenly concoction that is
the apotheosis of what we call "hot chocolate".

Freshly-prepared hot chocolate, Guatemalan style, IS a treat -- but the
ne plus ultra in (non-alcoholic) things to drink is called "licuada de
pin~a".  You have never known the full delights of pineapple until you
eat a round of field-ripened fruit fresh picked in Guatemala or
southeastern Mexico -- and the drink made from it is an even more
delightful experience.

Who told you there's no internet in Guatemala?  There are even Internet
cafes in Antigua and Guatemala City and, I think, in Flores (the base
town for visits to the great prehispanic city of Tikal).  Fees are
surprisingly modest, the computers and software are adequate, and it's
easy to remain connected if you want to.  I was even able to log on to
my own account back home via Telnet anytime I wished.  Cafe Internet's
services were a helluva lot cheaper than calling my wife on the phone!

Take the warnings about getting robbed seriously.  Keep your New Yorker
street smarts turned on at all times.  Be as defensively aware of your
surroundings as you would be when walking through the borderland between
the turfs of rival urban gangs.  Armed robberies happen even on the
Guatemala City bus system, in broad daylight, at that.
(Three years ago, I watched one go down on Sixth Avenue in Guatemala
City at lunchtime -- right across the street from the main police
headquarters.  Things can be even worse in the boondocks, where the
robbers may actually be the cops.)

Don't get me wrong: I love Guatemala, and I will be there for five or
six weeks this summer.  But I take my behavioral cues from my Guatemalan
friends.  Like them, I always keep my antennae in scan mode when I'm not
in places that provide high security as one of the costs of doing
business.

  iFeliz viaje!

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Feb 1998 08:57:48 +0000
From:    Jim Rader <jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: Re: hurache

> > Sandals made out of one material or other were worn by Mexican Indians
> > before Cortes; a Japanese origin for such a word is wildly
> > improbable.
>
> Again, I appreciate the detailed etymological information that was
> sent.  Now I'll have actual evidence to use again this claim.  I think
> that coming up with a more plausible  alternative etymology is the best
> way to discredit wobbly explanations like this.  However, just because a
> thing (a word for it) already existed in a culture is no indication that
> those people will not adopt a foreign word.  This kind of "wildly
> improbable" thing happens in language all the time.  Japanese had milk
> and strawberries for centuries (along with perfectly good names for
> them), but that hasn't stopped them from borrowing "miruku" and
> "sutooberii".  And then there are all those words that the Anglo-Saxons
> borrowed from the Normans for things that they had already had, just
> cause those Norman words sounded so chic.  They already had *swine*, but
> I'd say they did a pretty wildly improbable thing by adopting *pork*.
>
> Danny Long
>

When I said "wildly improbable," I meant this particular etymology.
It goes beyond saying that there are many cases where a language has borrowed
words for items that the speakers of the language already possessed.
Japanese borrows words for "strawberry" and "milk" from English,
proto-Welsh borrowed words for "knife" and "milk" from Latin, and
English, of course, replaced significant portions of its vocabulary
with Anglo-French words--but these are all cases where the donor
language had/has some cultural allure--chicness, if you will.
English tends to borrow words from East Asian languages that denote
 items specific to East Asian culture--words for things we don't
already have.  The same would apply mutatis mutandis to Japanese and
Mexican Spanish in the 19th century.  The Japanese did not introduce
sandals to Mexico.  If Japanese gets chic enough, and enough people
in the Western Hemisphere learn some, maybe English and Spanish will
start borrowing Japanese words for things we already have.  But I
wouldn't hold my breath waiting.

Jim Rader

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Feb 1998 10:56:08 -0600
From:    Tom Head <tlh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NETDOOR.COM>
Subject: Re: Slimed

On Fri, 20 Feb 1998, Fred Shapiro wrote:

> Karen Lubell asked about the political usage of _slimed_.  The earliest
> occurrence yielded by a Westlaw search is an op-ed piece by David Nyhan in
> the Boston Globe, Dec. 3, 1987.  Nyhan wrote, "Ted Kennedy ... knows
> something about running for president, and even more about getting slimed
> by the press."
>
> The second earliest occurrence I can find is in U.S. News & World Report,
> June 20, 1988:  "If [House Speaker Jim] Wright were a ghostbuster, he'd
> say he's been slimed.  But as the new sleaze pinup for the GOP, he can't
> say much of anything."

Would this mean that the word actually came from _Ghostbusters_ (1985)?
I'd always thought the movie got it from another source.


Peace be with you,

Tom Head
http://www2.netdoor.com/~tlh

"I have associated and studied with the 'objective observers' and am
convinced that, for all their virtues, they invariably miss the point
and eat the menu instead of the dinner."
                                        -- Alan Watts

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:31:46 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DFJP.COM>
Subject: WOTY Posted

I have finally posted Allan's Word of the Year report on the ADS web site.

http://www.jerrynet.com/ads/index.htm

Please accept my apologies for the delay. The ad agency I work for is undergoing
 a name change, and this involves me working long and late.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]jerrynet.com

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Feb 1998 12:47:45 -0500
From:    Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Slimed

On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Tom Head wrote:

> Would this mean that the word actually came from _Ghostbusters_ (1985)?
> I'd always thought the movie got it from another source.

The term was probably popularized by _Ghostbusters_, and this is probably
where the political usage came from.  But it was used on Nickelodeon (I
don't have the name of the exact show handy as I'm typing this) prior to
_Ghostbusters_.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
 Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
 Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Feb 1998 13:32:32 -0500
From:    Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: Slimed

Fred, I think the name of that show was _You Can't Do That on Television_.
It was a kid's show in which members of the cast were frequently drenched
from above with nasty green goo.  I don't know if they called the practice
"sliming."  I didn't watch the show.  I do know that it was a Canadian
production (I believe), and that Alison what's her name, whose album
_Jagged Little Pill_ was a hit a couple year's ago, was a member of the
cast. The other possiblity was Nik's game show for kids--Double-Dare--
where contestants were also doused with slime.  The problem with these
shows as sources for "slimed" is that they both aired after the original
_Ghostbusters_ film, which I believe premiered in 1982 or 1983.  I think
that both Nik shows came afterwards.  Anyone?

On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Fred Shapiro wrote:

> On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Tom Head wrote:
>
> > Would this mean that the word actually came from _Ghostbusters_ (1985)?
> > I'd always thought the movie got it from another source.
>
> The term was probably popularized by _Ghostbusters_, and this is probably
> where the political usage came from.  But it was used on Nickelodeon (I
> don't have the name of the exact show handy as I'm typing this) prior to
> _Ghostbusters_.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>  Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
>  Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
>    and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
>  Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
>  e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>

Bob Haas
UNCG Department of English
rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu

                    "No matter where you go, there you are."

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:21:08 -0500
From:    Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Slimed

On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Bob Haas wrote:

> Fred, I think the name of that show was _You Can't Do That on Television_.
> It was a kid's show in which members of the cast were frequently drenched
> from above with nasty green goo.  I don't know if they called the practice
> "sliming."  I didn't watch the show.  I do know that it was a Canadian
> <snip>
> cast. The other possiblity was Nik's game show for kids--Double-Dare--
> where contestants were also doused with slime.  The problem with these
> shows as sources for "slimed" is that they both aired after the original
> _Ghostbusters_ film, which I believe premiered in 1982 or 1983.  I think
> that both Nik shows came afterwards.  Anyone?

_Ghostbusters_ came out in the summer of 1984.  Apparently _slimed_ was
used in "You Can't Do That on TV" on Nickelodeon prior to that.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
 Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
 Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Feb 1998 15:40:25 -0500
From:    Jesse T Sheidlower <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM>
Subject: Re: Slimed

While I have little doubt that the political sense of _slime,_
and the verb's general currency, was popularized by the movie
_Ghostbusters,_ I feel obligated to point out that OED2 does
record _slime_ as a transitive verb meaning 'to smear or cover
with slime', with citations to 1628, including two from Tennyson.

Jesse Sheidlower
<jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 25 Feb 1998 10:55:15 +0900
From:    Daniel Long <dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP>
Subject: CD-ROM dictionaries

I am looking for English dictionaries on CD-ROM.  I want to do
electronic searches (of etymologies and other things).  I have the
following four.  Does anyone know of others available?  Thank you.

Danny Long

(1994) Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, 10th ed.(CD-ROM).
Merriam-Webster.
(1992) American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, 3rd ed.
(CD-ROM).  Houghton Mifflin.
(1992) Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd. ed. (CD-ROM).  Oxford University
Press.
(1994) Webster's New World Dictionary, 3rd college ed. (CD-ROM). Simon
and Schuster.

--
Daniel Long, Associate Professor     tel  +81-6-723-8297
Japanese Language Research Center    fax  +81-6-723-8302
Osaka Shoin Women's College         dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp
4-2-26 Hishiyanishi                 http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/
Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577-8550

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Feb 1998 23:41:34 -0500
From:    Bob Haas <rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: Slimed

Cool.

On Tue, 24 Feb 1998, Jesse T Sheidlower wrote:

> While I have little doubt that the political sense of _slime,_
> and the verb's general currency, was popularized by the movie
> _Ghostbusters,_ I feel obligated to point out that OED2 does
> record _slime_ as a transitive verb meaning 'to smear or cover
> with slime', with citations to 1628, including two from Tennyson.
>
> Jesse Sheidlower
> <jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com>
>

Bob Haas
UNCG Department of English
rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu

                    "No matter where you go, there you are."

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Feb 1998 to 24 Feb 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (2/24/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 1998 to 23 Feb 1998             98-02-24 00:00:44
There are 7 messages totalling 252 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Canoodlin'
  2. hurache (2)
  3. Usage Newsletter
  4. "poor" for "pore" etc.
  5. L. A., the Digital Coast?
  6. Windy City; Magic City

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Feb 1998 07:46:33 EST
From:    Laura Johnson <laurance[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JUNO.COM>
Subject: Canoodlin'

The only place I've seen "canoodle" used was in an Ann Landers column.  I
thought it was a word of Germanic/Yiddish origin.  Am I wrong?  I was
thinking of words ending in -oodle in English, and -udel in German.

Laura

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:54:00 +0000
From:    Jim Rader <jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: Re: hurache

> I have been told that the English word hurache, which came into US
> English through Mexican Spanish, originates in the Japanese word
> *waraji* 'straw sandals', but I have no substantiating evidence.  OED
> indicate the word was in use in Mexican Spanish in 1887, and this is not
> long after the first Japanese immigrants went to Mexico.  That doesn't
> leave much time for a borrowing to catch on and spread, but it may not
> be impossible.  I do not have easy access to a Mexican Spanish
> etymological dictionary.  Does anyone have any ideas on the origin of
> this word.
>
> The OED's listing for hurache begins thus:
>
> huarache. Also guaracha, guarache, guarachi, huaracho.  [Mex.-Sp.]
> A leather-thonged sandal, orig. worn by Mexican Indians.
> 1887 F. C. Gooch Face to Face with Mexicans xii. 433 Leathern aprons and
> sandals of the same, called guarachi.
> 1892 Dialect Notes I. 190 Huaracho, -s, a kind of sandals worn by
> Indians and the lower classes generally. Used generally in the plural
> only.
>
> --
> Daniel Long, Associate Professor     tel  +81-6-723-8297
> Japanese Language Research Center    fax  +81-6-723-8302
> Osaka Shoin Women's College         dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp
> 4-2-26 Hishiyanishi                 http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/
> Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577-8550
>

Mexican Spanish _huarache_ or _gaurache_ is borrowed
from Tarascan _kwar.a'c^i_ (initial labiovelar, retroflex r, stress
on second syllable, c^ is dental affricate); the retroflex flap does
not occur in loanwords from Spanish, so the word is almost certainly
native, not borrowed (per William Bright).  The Tarascans (native name is
 _pure'pecha_, I
think) are an important Indian people of Michoacan--though I don't
offhand know of any other generally used word in Mexican Spanish that
was borrowed from Tarascan.  Seems this etymology has been known for
a long time; it's given by Santamaria (_Diccionario de mejicanismos-,
1959) who cites as a source Eustaquio Buelna, a 19th century scholar.

Sandals made out of one material or other were worn by Mexican Indians
before Cortes; a Japanese origin for such a word is wildly
improbable.

Jim Rader

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Feb 1998 09:18:25 -0600
From:    Alan R Slotkin <ASLOTKIN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU>
Subject: Usage Newsletter

I want again to encourage everyone on the list to submit notes, reviews, book
notices, etc., to the Usage Newsletter.  At the moment, I do not have enough
material on hand for another issue.  If the membership wishes the newsletter to
continue, then submissions are a must.  Thanks.

Alan

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Alan R. Slotkin
Professor of English/English Major Adviser
Box 5053, TTU
Cookeville, TN 38506
931-372-3262

aslotkin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tntech.edu
http://gemini.tntech.edu/~aslotkin

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Feb 1998 15:13:01 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: Re: "poor" for "pore" etc.

Peter McGraw wrote:

>>>
My aunt once told me about a woman of her acquaintance who would "poor" water
 out of a pitcher.  My aunt said she
asked her once what she called people who didn't have any money, and she said,
 "Oh, you mean pore people?"  I have
no information as to where this was.

<<<
I wonder to what degree this swap was in the ears of the beholder. It is, or
 was, quite common to represent
"Brooklynese" in print by swapping "oi" and "er": "I hoid ya needed some
 T'ree-In-One Erl." Rather than being swapped, it
may be the case that the speaker merges the two sounds to something that is
 phonetically between the hearer's
expectations, and the hearer's reaction and analysis, if conscious and put into
 words, would go something like this,
using the linear scale of integers to represent a range of n-dimensional
 acoustic space:

"I use /1/ in this word, and it sounds like [1] when I say it, but this person
 is saying the word with [3]. That's not a sound I
would use at all, but it's off in the direction of /5/. I guess this person uses
 /5/ where I use /1/."

The same process -- I hesitate to call it "logic" -- would map "oi" into "er"
 and "er" into "oi", or "or" into "Ur" and "Ur" into
"or". (Try saying dat t'ree times fast!)

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Feb 1998 16:54:52 EST
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: L. A., the Digital Coast?

     This is from the New York Times, 23 February 1998, pg. D4, cols. 3-6:

In the Shadow of Silicon Valley, "Digital Coast" Emerges
(highlighted box)  Los Angeles has been a city in search of a cybermoniker
By Amy Harmon
     LOS ANGELES--No true booster of Silicon Valley or its New York wannabe,
Silicon Alley, would dispute the benefits of a catchy moniker for raising a
region's high-technology profile and attracting coveted talent and venture
capital.
     But Los Angeles Mayor Richard J. Riordan's announcement last week that
this city would henceforth be known as "Digital Coast" elicited little more
than snickers and derision from its geographic rivals.
     "Already people are talking about 'Digital Toast,'" sniffed Mark Stahlman
(His nose sniffs in perfect English?--ed.), a co-founder of the New York New
Media Association and the man who coined the derivative Silicon Alley label to
describe the cluster of Internet companies in lower Manhattan.
     A spokesman for Joint Venture Silicon Valley, an economic development
group in San Jose, Calif., was more magnanimous, noting, "At least they stayed
away from 'silicon,' since there is only one Silicon Valley, and everyone has
already tried to do a takeoff."
     (...)  If this self-baptism seems a bit forced, it is far from the first
time a locale has draped itself in techn-chic associations.  One Web site
(http://www.tbtf.com/siliconia.html) lists 45 instances of "siliconia"
associated with 55 locations, including North Carolina's Silicon Triangle, the
Silicon Fen in Cambridge, England, and even the Silicon Swamp of Perry, Fla.,
on the Gulf of Mexico.
     (...)  So far, the original Valley has far outstripped its rivals.  But
Los Angeles reasons that as bandwidth expands and on-line entertainment
becomes more feasible, it will come into its own--though only time will tell
whether its bid to become "the new-media capital of the world" is simply
California dreaming.
     "Multimedia is our ticket for success into the next century," Mayor
Riordan said at the ceremony last Wednesday as slides of the Southern
California coast at sunset, night and midday flashed on a screen behind him.
"The future is in our hands, and we're going to win."

     This is a very familiar naming scenario.  Sometimes it works and
sometimes it doesn't.
      I object to the name "digital," though.  Digital is a company's name.
(Have they merged with Compaq computers?)  Also, it sounds like "Gidget-al
Coast."  And, in the movie BOOGIE NIGHTS, one reviewer mentioned the main
character's "digit."
      On the obvious level, though, doesn't "Digital Coast" mean that the
place is filled with "ones" and "zeros"?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 24 Feb 1998 11:32:23 +0900
From:    Daniel Long <dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP>
Subject: Re: hurache

Thanks to Don Lance and Jim Rader for the info about huarache (which I
spelled rong in the subject line).  I had thought this was a pretty
unlikely etymology, but it is written in THE dictionary.  I won't say
which one, but its initials are _American Heritage Dictionary of the
English Language_, 3rd edition on CD-ROM, 1992 Houghton Mifflin.  They
say, "probably from Japanese *warachi* straw sandal".  Their Japanese
sourceword is incorrect as well.  The word is *waraji*.  There are
various historical and geographical variants; none of which are
*warachi*.
To Merriam-Webster's credit, Jim Rader's etymology (though not in such
detail) was in their 10th Collegiate which I had on CD-ROM. . .  I
called myself checking that dictionary before I posted this query, but I
had missed it somehow.  Guess I have to more careful next time.

Incidentally, I have found that Takeaki Enomoto led the first Japanese
immigrants to Mexico in 1897.  Ten years after the OED English source
(and this isn't even considering how far the word went back in Mexican
Spanish).  Had I known this earlier, this info itself would have pretty
much ruled out the Jap. etymology.

> Sandals made out of one material or other were worn by Mexican Indians
> before Cortes; a Japanese origin for such a word is wildly
> improbable.

Again, I appreciate the detailed etymological information that was
sent.  Now I'll have actual evidence to use again this claim.  I think
that coming up with a more plausible  alternative etymology is the best
way to discredit wobbly explanations like this.  However, just because a
thing (a word for it) already existed in a culture is no indication that
those people will not adopt a foreign word.  This kind of "wildly
improbable" thing happens in language all the time.  Japanese had milk
and strawberries for centuries (along with perfectly good names for
them), but that hasn't stopped them from borrowing "miruku" and
"sutooberii".  And then there are all those words that the Anglo-Saxons
borrowed from the Normans for things that they had already had, just
cause those Norman words sounded so chic.  They already had *swine*, but
I'd say they did a pretty wildly improbable thing by adopting *pork*.

Danny Long
--
Daniel Long, Associate Professor     tel  +81-6-723-8297
Japanese Language Research Center    fax  +81-6-723-8302
Osaka Shoin Women's College         dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp
4-2-26 Hishiyanishi                 http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/
Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577-8550

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 23 Feb 1998 20:49:18 -0800
From:    Chuck Borsos <sqeezbox[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CRUZIO.COM>
Subject: Re: Windy City; Magic City

Barry Popik writes:
>     The long article puts "Magic City" in the context of the city's growth
>like magic, or "upbuilding."  (Upbuilding?)...Anyone have an earlier
>"culchah"?

Barberton, Ohio is also called the "Magic City", its local high school
teams referred to as "the Magics", supposedly because it arose from nothing
into a thriving industrial city in very little time.  Sorry,I don't have
any references at this time.

Chuck Borsos

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 1998 to 23 Feb 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (2/23/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 21 Feb 1998 to 22 Feb 1998             98-02-23 00:00:25
There are 5 messages totalling 357 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. "cookies"
  2. hurache
  3. Ice cream cone; Pop (soda)
  4. Sky line; Ragged edge; Muckers; Psycho; Yellow dog
  5. Windy City; Magic City

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 21 Feb 1998 23:09:36 -0800
From:    Gabor Fencsik <gabor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.COM>
Subject: Re: "cookies"

Greg Downing forwards a question from the Linguist List:

> can anyone tell me anything about the etymology resp. the sense
> development of the computer term "cookie"? One definition I found in
> "Among The New Words" in American Speech says:
> "Cookies are bits of computer code that allow a Web page's operators
> to collect information about each user for later reference." ,
> but I still can't understand the motivation for calling this a
> cookie. It must be a metaphorical meaning, but what kind of meaning
> elements are being transferred here?

The word "cookie" in computer jargon is shorthand for "magic cookie".
The UNIX manual pages, published initially in the seventies, and gradually
swelling to massive volumes through the eighties and nineties, were
liberally sprinkled with "magic cookies" and "magic numbers".  I guess the
terminology is rooted in the various computerized versions of dungeons-and-
dragons type games, played by bleary-eyed programmers to fill up the time
while their programs were being compiled, or to relieve the stress after
a night of strenuous hacking.

Technically speaking, the "magic cookies" and "magic numbers" were bit
patterns found in a certain place within a file.  They were used to
identify the type of the file in question.  The "magic cookie" was
checked by computer programs to make sure the file was of the kind the
program was allowed to operate on.  Thus, a tape archiver program
was only allowed to touch archive files, a loader was only allowed to
load executable files, and so forth.  The bit patterns constituting
the "magic cookie" were chosen arbitrarily, but when they were absent,
nothing worked.  That's why they were "magic".

Thus, the original meaning of "magic cookie" involved information
passing from a file to a program reading the file.  Later, the concept
was extended to information being passed from a program to another program
running on a different machine.  Programs send each other "magic cookies"
primarily for purposes of authentication.  When you are browsing the
New York Times web page, for example, the web server at the NY Times
sends a cookie to you browser to identify you as a properly logged-on
customer.  Without the cookie, they would have to have you log in every
time you click on a link on their webpage, an annoyance up with which
we would not put.

I don't know when "magic cookie" began to be shortened to "cookie"
tout simple, but I believe this is a relatively recent development.
The question could be settled by searching the archives of the many
UNIX-related discussion groups on Usenet.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Feb 1998 16:46:57 +0900
From:    Daniel Long <dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP>
Subject: hurache

I have been told that the English word hurache, which came into US
English through Mexican Spanish, originates in the Japanese word
*waraji* 'straw sandals', but I have no substantiating evidence.  OED
indicate the word was in use in Mexican Spanish in 1887, and this is not
long after the first Japanese immigrants went to Mexico.  That doesn't
leave much time for a borrowing to catch on and spread, but it may not
be impossible.  I do not have easy access to a Mexican Spanish
etymological dictionary.  Does anyone have any ideas on the origin of
this word.

The OED's listing for hurache begins thus:

huarache. Also guaracha, guarache, guarachi, huaracho.  [Mex.-Sp.]
A leather-thonged sandal, orig. worn by Mexican Indians.
1887 F. C. Gooch Face to Face with Mexicans xii. 433 Leathern aprons and
sandals of the same, called guarachi.
1892 Dialect Notes I. 190 Huaracho, -s, a kind of sandals worn by
Indians and the lower classes generally. Used generally in the plural
only.

--
Daniel Long, Associate Professor     tel  +81-6-723-8297
Japanese Language Research Center    fax  +81-6-723-8302
Osaka Shoin Women's College         dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp
4-2-26 Hishiyanishi                 http://www.age.ne.jp/x/oswcjlrc/
Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577-8550

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:41:15 EST
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Ice cream cone; Pop (soda)

ICE CREAM CONE

     As most of you know, I've extensively studied American food words, from
the "hoagie" to the "hot dog" to "pizza."  I've also posted on "milk shake,"
"sundae," ice cream sandwich," and "ice cream cone."
     A new wrinkle on that last term--which many had thought was invented at
the 1904 St. Louis World's Fair--was in the New York Post, 10 February 1998,
pg. 57, cols. 1-2 (in a Clive Barnes theater review, of all places!):

Evening melts fast at
old ice cream company

     MY memory, or lack of it, could well prove the death of me.  The other
night, all innocent abroad, I walked into the oddly named Paradise Theater to
see Tom Noonan's oddly named play "Wang Dang."
     The name of the theater does suggest a strip club, doesn't it?  But in
these post-Giuliani Disneyland days it has apparently been named after the
Paradise Ice Cream Co., once housed in the basement, where, it is claimed, the
ice-cream cone was invented in 1897.
     The building a few years later became "a hotbed of union organizing"
(doubtless melting the ice cream) and is, I understand, considered the
official birthplace of the International Ladies Garment Workers Union.
     (...)  The premise is pretentious, the ideas jejune, and the evening
wasted.  Paradise lost.  Bring back the ice-cream cones.

     I walked to the Paradise Theater at 64 East Fourth Street (NYU's Bobst
Library is also on Fourth Street).  The person there didn't know anything and
said that that information came from the building's owner.  I checked
telephone directories and could find NO Paradise Ice Cream Company listed
1897-1899.
     Next, I'll have to go to the New York Historical Society and check the
Trow's directories and whatever reverse directories (based on location) they
have.  I have to miss a day of work, and I haven't had the time.
     In the meantime, however, whenever you eat an ice cream cone, think of
the Paradise Ice Cream Company at 64 East 4th Street--and look for the union
label!

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
POP (soda)

     "Pop" (soda) has been mentioned here.  The following is from the
Pittsburgh Telegraph, 17 November 1882, pg. 2, col. 1:

     THE Bottlers object to being called makers of "Pop," not that this title
savors of pauperism, but of vulgarism.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:41:51 EST
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Sky line; Ragged edge; Muckers; Psycho; Yellow dog

SKY LINE

     Barnhart's Dictionary of Etymology has "skyline (1824, line where earth
and sky meet, horizon; 1896, outline of buildings against the sky, in writings
of George Bernard Shaw)."
     We can beat the latter by over two decades.  In fact, "sky line" appears
before the first "sky scraper" building.  This is from the New York Commercial
Advertiser, 27 February 1875, pg. 1, col. 2:

     New York's Sky Line.
     In an interesting letter to the Boston _Advertiser_, from an occasional
correspondent in this City, we find the following:  "Absolute flatness could
never be predicated of Manhattan Island.  The City Hall Park is not less than
thirty feet above tide water; and Broadway, as every omnibus horse knows to
his cost, is an undulatory and even sharply hilly thoroughfare.  One ascends
gradually from the Battery, abruptly (going in the opposite direction) from
Canal street; and the ferries on both rivers land their passengers at the foot
of a considerable incline.  The plateau thus bounded has till of late years
had a uniform outline, much as described by Baron Hubner.  Formerly, in order
to obtain a characteristic view of the City, it was deemed necessary to
approach it from the lower bay--or "end on," as we might express it.  In the
geographies in vogue a quarter of a century ago (in Woodbridge's, for example,
as I remember it), we were shown the round fort on Governor's Island, the
Battery, and Trinity Church; that was New York looking north.  Now an artist
or a photographer would plant himself rather on the Jersey or the Long Island
shore, preferring the panoramic to the perspective view.  In place of a line
rising from the water's edge to Trinity Church, and thence substantially
horizontal till the clock-tower of the City Hall was reached, one now sees
(say from Hoboken) first the square mass of Babbitt's soap factory; next
Trinity; then the Equitable and Mutual Life Buildings; then the roof of the
Delaware and Hudson Canal Company's Office; then the Western Union Telegraph
Company's mammoth edifice; then in the huddle, the _Evening Post_, Park Bank
and _Herald_ Buildings, pierced by the spire of St. Paul's, then the Post
Office, the tower and high roof of the _Tribune_ Building, the twin piers of
the Brooklyn Bridge, and finally City Hall.  From this point Northward the
line becomes tolerably even again, but is broken at short intervals by spires,
pavilions and domes, more numerous than striking, till the City vista is cut
off by the factory-like Manhattan Market, and the eye rests delightedly on the
natural shapes of the unharvested cliffs of the Hudson.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
RAGGED EDGE

     I previously said that the Beecher-Tilton affair was called "the ragged
edge trial."
     "Ragged edge" was also in the Cincinnati Daily Gazette, 20 March 1875,
pg. 7, col. 6, "INSURANCE/  ANOTHER COMPANY ON THE RAGGED EDGE!"  In the same
publication, 17 March 1875, pg. 4, col. 1, "The 'ragged-edge' men in
Cincinnati just now are the members of the Johnston Democracy."  The New-York
Commercial Advertiser, 27 April 1875, pg. 2, col. 3, has "matters are still on
the 'r-gg-d edge.'"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
MUCKERS

     This possible antedate (see the RHHDAS) is from the Cincinnati Daily
Gazette, 22 January 1875, pg. 4, col. 1:

     What is BISMARCK about?  Does he think that the German fatherland extends
across the Atlantic, and is he about to interpose diplomatic remonstrances, or
adopt even sterner policy against Puritanic "muckers?"

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
PSYCHO

     Barnhart's Dictionary of Etymology has 1927 for "psycho."  But perhaps
the first "psycho" was not a person at all!
     This is from the Cincinnati Daily Gazette, 12 February 1875, pg. 4, col.
5:

     The Automaton Card Player.
>From the London Times.
     The new automaton invented by Mr. John Neuil Maskelyne and Mr. John
Algernon Clarke, which appears twice daily in Messrs. Maskelyne and Cooke's
entertainment at the Egyptian Hall, Piccadilly, is not a deception like Baron
Kempler's renowned chess player.  (...)  The marvel of the new invention of
Mr. Maskelyne and Mr. Clarke consists in three distinctive features--the
figure has no living being within it; it is perfectly isolated from any
connection--mechanical, electrical, magnetical, or otherwise conceivable--with
any operator at a distance; and yet, nevertheless, it plays a game of whist
with no little skill, performs arithmetical calculations, obeys by its
movements the directions of any person in the audience, and accomplishes a
number of very surprising feats with cards chosen and names written by the
audience.  "Psycho," as the automaton has been named,...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
YELLOW DOG

     Sure, I'd trust a yellow dog.  This is from the New York Tribune, 9
February 1875, pg. 6, col. 6:

     A "yaller" dog has covered himself with glory as a traveler or pilgrim or
quadrupedestrian.  He was taken last Fall from Indiana to Kansas.  But he
didn't like Kansas, and was homesick through and through.  He found meat
scarce and was averse to a diet of grasshoppers.  So he tramped it over miles
and miles of desolate prairies; he swam the Kansas and Missouri Rivers; and
one day, footsore, weary, and lean, he barked at the old door.  He was six
weeks upon the journey; and the first thing he did upon getting home was to
eat his dinner calmly, the next to drive the pigs out of the yard according to
his ancient custom.  He had learned something, but had forgotten nothing.  If
ever dog deserved a silver collar and unlimited bones for life, he is the
animal.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
PERSONAL

     At a chapter of SABR (Society for American Baseball Research) on
Saturday, February 28th, 3:25-3:40 p.m., at the Brooklyn Heights Library, I'll
lecture on the origin of "New York Yankees," "Bronx Bombers," and "Subway
Series."  Most everything has already been posted here.  I did the origin of
the "fan" at the SABR meeting in 1996.  About 130 people show up.  I'll also
write it in article form for Yankees Magazine.
     From March 5-20th I'll be in Guatemala (no internet!), touring the Mayan
sites and investigating the origin of "chocolate."  There is a safety risk,
and it was a tough choice between being robbed in Guatemala or dying from
anthrax poisoning on the New York City subways.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 22 Feb 1998 14:42:11 EST
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Windy City; Magic City

     There wasn't an earlier "Windy City" that I could find than the April 21,
1886 SPORTING LIFE.  The March 17, 1886, pg. 4, col. 5 SPORTING LIFE has "FROM
CHICAGO./ Approaching Spring and Base Ball Games in the Lake City."
     I extensively checked Pittsburgh a few weekends ago (I'd checked Chicago,
NY, St. Louis, Boston, Philadelphia, Detroit), and "Windy City" wasn't there
in May 1886 for the Haymarket crisis reports.
     So I rechecked the LOUISVILLE COURIER-JOURNAL.  (Boy, did I screw this
one up.  Perhaps a few "Lake City" citations there in late April and early May
threw me off.)  I checked March-April 1886 and found this, 17 April 1886, pg.
2, col. 5:

     CHICAGO NOTES.
A Louisville Man's Views As to the
     Causes Producing the Windy
     City's Prosperity.
(Correspondence of the Courier-Journal.)
     CHICAGO, April 12.--(article is long, but of limited interest--ed.)
     T. M. G.

     There was a wind storm throughout the midwest at that time (1886).  An
article on April 7, pg. 6, col. 1 is "WIND AND WATER."  About "sowing the
wind, reaping the whirlwind" that I had found in connection to Chicago's
Haymarket crisis in May, an article from El Paso, Texas, April 10, pg. 5, col.
2, is "REAPING THE WHIRLWIND/ Disorderly Strikers to Jail for Their Bad
Conduct."
     I'll probably have to go a little further back in the Louisville Courier-
Journal, and also recheck the humor publication TEXAS SIFTINGS.  And THEN I'll
be done on "Windy City."
     A different Chicago nickname was found in the Providence Evening Press, 5
April 1875, pg. 1, col. 8:  "LETTER FROM CHICAGO./ GROWTH AND PROSPERITY OF
THE GOLDEN CITY."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
MAGIC CITY

     A check of the web shows that Miami, Florida; Birmingham, Alabama; and
Minot, North Dakota all currently bill themselves as a "Magic City."  One web
site shows a Miami "Magic City" post card from the 1920s.
     I was checking "Windy City" when I found this in the Louisville Courier-
Journal, 11 March 1886, pg. 5, col. 4:

     THE MAGIC CITY.
A Very Eulogistic Sketch of Thrifty
     Little Birmingham.
The Alabama City That Will Be a
     Great Iron Center.
     BIRMINGHAM, ALA., March 5.--To a stranger the "crackers," or people
living in the backwoods settlements of this section, may appear to be a little
uncouth, and lacking in some of the vim and push of the real life Yankee, but
none the less are they possessed of many traits that are recognized as
peculiarly American.  A genuine outcropping of this becomes apparent when you
hear one of them calling this place "Burningham," and the citizens, in
consequence, sometimes gaining from the same lips the very suggestive title of
"Burninghammers."  This may arise from a quaint sort of helplessness in
pronunciation, or from the indifference to such matters generally displayed by
backwoodsmen, but more likely it is a case where they dart at once to the
designation of all others the most genuinely descriptive and appropriate,
though riding rough-shod over all the rules of grammar and "culchah."  The
truth of its application will be evident when you have a chance to observe the
persistent energy with which the "Burninghammers" have been striking the iron
while it was hot, and kept constantly so by the enthusiasm of success and
prosperity in the upbuilding of their little city...

     The long article puts "Magic City" in the context of the city's growth
like magic, or "upbuilding."  (Upbuilding?)...Anyone have an earlier
"culchah"?

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Feb 1998 to 22 Feb 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (2/22/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 20 Feb 1998 to 21 Feb 1998             98-02-22 00:00:31
There are 5 messages totalling 185 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. John Dickson Carr and canoodle (2)
  2. "poor" for "pore" etc. (2)
  3. Computer terms: "cookies"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 21 Feb 1998 02:54:16 -0600
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: John Dickson Carr and canoodle

Laura Johnson wrote:

> I notice someone referred to John Dickson Carr in a paragraph about
> British authors.  This author was not British at all.  He was from
> Uniontown, Pennsylvania . . .

Yes, of course!  My point was that his Great Detective, the one who used
the word "canoodle", was supposed to be British -- and his speech
peculiarities were supposed to be indicative of Britishisms.

At least that's the partial memory I'm trying to recover.

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 21 Feb 1998 10:25:43 -0500
From:    Robert Kelly <kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: John Dickson Carr and canoodle

Carr, though indeed born in America, spent many years ---thirty at least--
in Britain, writing the greatest of his work there, and his texts are
interesting studies of 'mid-Atlantic' dialect--- his lovers canoodle, yes,
but his heroes are often young Americans, so Carr can weave his natural
language through the stiffer acquired dialect.  Interesting that what many
regard as the greatest of all his books (The Burning Court) is in fact set
in Pennsylvania...



==================================================
Robert Kelly
Division of Literature and Languages, Bard College
Annandale-on-Hudson NY 12504
Voice Mail: 914-758-7600 Box 7205
kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bard.edu

On Sat, 21 Feb 1998, Mike Salovesh wrote:

> Laura Johnson wrote:
>
> > I notice someone referred to John Dickson Carr in a paragraph about
> > British authors.  This author was not British at all.  He was from
> > Uniontown, Pennsylvania . . .
>
> Yes, of course!  My point was that his Great Detective, the one who used
> the word "canoodle", was supposed to be British -- and his speech
> peculiarities were supposed to be indicative of Britishisms.
>
> At least that's the partial memory I'm trying to recover.
>
> --  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
>     anthropology department
>     northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!
>

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 21 Feb 1998 10:51:11 -0500
From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
Subject: "poor" for "pore" etc.

    On Feb. 17 Peter McGraw presented the following interesting information:

My aunt once told me about a woman of her acquaintance who would "poor"
water out of a pitcher.  My aunt said she asked her once what she
called people who didn't have any money, and she said, "Oh, you mean
pore people?"  I have no information as to where this was.

    I've noticed at least two other instances of similar sound switches.  A
professor of mine years back told me that a woman he once spoke to made the
following derogatory remark about someone lacking upbringing/good manners:
"He was barn in a born."

    Also, there's the well known switch of "oi" for "ir" in some immigrant
speech in NYC, e.g. "She's a poil of a goil."  But the reverse change
occurs in some speakers--those who say "erl" for "oil" (the fuel) and
"berl" for "boil." I specifically remember hearing someone say "I berled an
egg."  I think I also heard this sort of pronunciation from the TV
character Archie Bunker.

  At one point I had been under the impression that sound changes go in
only one direction at a time..  A double switch of the type "poor" to
"pore" and "pore" to "poor" (in different words) seems to present some sort
of an anomaly in this picture.

--Gerald Cohen



gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 21 Feb 1998 15:20:32 -0500
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Computer terms: "cookies"

I thought I'd forward this from the Linguist list, since I know there are
folks on ADS-L who know about cyberlanguage, and may have comments. Reply to
the person in the "From" line below.

Greg D./NYU

******************************************************

Date:  Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:45:49 +0000
From:  monika.bruendl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]stud.uni-muenchen.de
Subject:  Computer terms: "cookies"

Dear fellow-linguists,
can anyone tell me anything about the etymology resp. the sense
development of the computer term "cookie"? One definition I found in
"Among The New Words" in American Speech says:
"Cookies are bits of computer code that allow a Web page's operators
to collect information about each user for later reference." ,
but I still can't understand the motivation for calling this a
cookie. It must be a metaphorical meaning, but what kind of meaning
elements are being transferred here?
Thank you for your help!
Monika Bruendl.
Monika Bruendl, M.A.
monika.bruendl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]stud.uni-muenchen.de

Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 21 Feb 1998 21:45:19 -0600
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: "poor" for "pore" etc.

>    On Feb. 17 Peter McGraw presented the following interesting information:
>
>My aunt once told me about a woman of her acquaintance who would "poor"
>water out of a pitcher.  My aunt said she asked her once what she
>called people who didn't have any money, and she said, "Oh, you mean
>pore people?"  I have no information as to where this was.

-Gerald Cohen wrote on Feb 21:
.............
.............
>
>  At one point I had been under the impression that sound changes go in
>only one direction at a time..  A double switch of the type "poor" to
>"pore" and "pore" to "poor" (in different words) seems to present some sort
>of an anomaly in this picture.

pore 'to study carefully' <<== Middle English pouren
pore 'opening in tissue' <<== ME pore <<== OF <<== L porus <<== G poros
pour 'to make x flow' <<== ME pouren <<==? Old North French purer <<== L purare
poor 'with little money' <<== ME poure <<== OF povre <<== L pauper

With etymologies such as these, it shouldn't be surprising that
considerable variation can be found in pronunciations from early Modern
English through contemporary British and American English.  The vowels in
all of these words were potential candidates for "Great Vowel Shifting"
upward or alternatively for "shortening" in lects in which the -r led to
checked (closed) syllables.  Rather than 'poor' shifting downward, as Jerry
suggests, in some lects it never raised from the French [o], whereas the
vowel in  'pour' was a high vowel that shiftend down in some lects, whether
by some analogical or phonological means.  I'm offering hypothetical
historical scenarios here, not something based on empirical research.

DMLance

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Feb 1998 to 21 Feb 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (2/21/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 19 Feb 1998 to 20 Feb 1998             98-02-21 00:00:40
There are 9 messages totalling 372 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCJV8layVtJSRLXUx1GyhK?= (2)
  2. New ADS Homepage URL (2)
  3. Slimed
  4. canoodle [long] (3)
  5. Definition of "ebonic"?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Feb 1998 10:46:14 +0000
From:    Liudmila Kostiukevich <lvk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USM.MD>
Subject: Re: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCJV8layVtJSRLXUx1GyhK?=

There should be a kind of text here, I guess.

L.Kostiukevich

On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, ICHIRO OTA wrote:

>  $BB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ED!w</;yEgBg3X$G$9!# (J
>
>  $B$4$V$5$?$7$F$^$9!# (J
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$i$J$/ (J
>  $B$F;DG0$G$7$?!# (J
>
>  $B$5$F!"$4Js9p$,CY$/$J$j$^$7$?$,!" (JObserving and Analysing Natural Language
 $B!!$N (J
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>
>  $B>>ED$5$s$K$bF~$C$F$b$i$C$?$3$H$G$9$7!"$^$?>>ED$5$s$+$i$NMWK>$b$"$C$F!" (J
>  $B0lEYA40w$=$m$C$F2q9g$r3+$3$&$+$H;W$C$F$$$^$9!# (J
>  $BFbMF$OLu8l!"BN:[Ey$NE}0l$9$k$H$$$&$3$H$,Cf?4$K$J$k$+$H;W$$$^$9!# (J
>  $B$=$NB>$K$b$$$m$$$m$HOC$79g$C$F$*$/$Y$-$3$H$,$"$k$+$b$7$l$^$;$s!# (J
>  $B$*5$$E$-$KE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]$O$*CN$i$;$/$[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]$5$$!# (J
>
>  $BF|Dx$G$9$,!"#37n2<=\$K$H9M$($F$$$^$9!# (J
>  $B?XFb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]h[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]8$,$?$7$+ (J24.25 $BF|$,$[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]$a$[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]$H$*$C$7$c$C$F$$$^$7$?$,!"$=$N$"$H$K$I
$&$+$H (J
>  $B9M$($F$$$^$9!# (J
>  $B%m%s%0$5$s$N$4ET9g$r$*J9$+$;$/$[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]$5$$$^$;$s$+!# (J
>
>  $B$=$l$+$i!"2q9g$G$"$l$P!"$I$3$+>l=j$,I,MW$K$J$j$^$9!# (J
>  $B;d0J30$NJ}!9$O4X[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]>$K$*=;$^$$$G$9$N$G!"$I$3$+$*It20$r$4Ds6!4j$($l$P$H;W$C$F$
$ (J
>  $B$^$9!# (J
>  $BBg:e>[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]0~$G$N2DG=[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]-$O$I$&$G$7$g$&$+!) (J
>  $B$3$NE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]$b$h$m$7$1$l$P$*D4$Y$$$?$[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]$1$l$P9,$$$G$9!# (J
>
>  $B$G$O!"$h$m$7$/$*4j$$$$$?$7$^$9!# (J
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Feb 1998 18:02:29 +0900
From:    ICHIRO OTA <ota[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLA.KAGOSHIMA-U.AC.JP>
Subject: Re: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCJV8layVtJSRLXUx1GyhK?=

> There should be a kind of text here, I guess.
>
> L.Kostiukevich
>
> On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, ICHIRO OTA wrote:

> >  $BB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ED!w</;yEgBg3X$G$9!# (J...

I sent a private letter in Japanese to ADS.
I am very sorry to bother all of you.
I apologize for my mistake.


Ichiro Ota
Department of Humanities
Kagoshima University
JAPAN

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Feb 1998 08:16:15 -0700
From:    Andrew & Diane Lillie <diandy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BYU.EDU>
Subject: New ADS Homepage URL

The ADS homepage has moved to http://www.jerrynet.com/ads/index.htm.
Please change your bookmarks.  I'd like to thank the new webmaster,
Grant Barrett for the work he's already done in getting the new site
ready.  All correspondence regarding the web page should be sent to
Grant at gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]jerrynet.com.

Diane Lillie
Outgoing Webmaster

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Feb 1998 14:31:13 -0500
From:    Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Slimed

Karen Lubell asked about the political usage of _slimed_.  The earliest
occurrence yielded by a Westlaw search is an op-ed piece by David Nyhan in
the Boston Globe, Dec. 3, 1987.  Nyhan wrote, "Ted Kennedy ... knows
something about running for president, and even more about getting slimed
by the press."

The second earliest occurrence I can find is in U.S. News & World Report,
June 20, 1988:  "If [House Speaker Jim] Wright were a ghostbuster, he'd
say he's been slimed.  But as the new sleaze pinup for the GOP, he can't
say much of anything."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
 Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
 Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:13:34 EST
From:    Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: New ADS Homepage URL

Thanks to Diane for keeping us on our Web feet for the past year!

And thanks to Grant for taking it on.

With his expertise, I hope we'll have the January ADS newsletter on our
website shortly. It's in the first-class s-mail, by the way, to all ADS
members today. If you're missing out because you're not a member, drop me a
note. . . .

- Allan Metcalf
Executive Secretary
American Dialect Society

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Feb 1998 15:30:04 +0000
From:    Jim Rader <jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: Re: canoodle [long]

Ms. Lubell--

Seeing that you sent a query about the etymology of _canoodle_ both
to this office (left on an editor's voicemail) and the list, I will
reply to both at the same time.  Sorry if this is too late for your
deadlines.

An article by B.J. Whiting that appeared in _American Speech_ in 1945
seems to have been overlooked in the recent discussion of this word.
Whiting pointed out that the acceptance of _canoodle_ as an
Americanism in the standard dictionaries was questionable.  The
English journalist George Augustus Sala, in the first cite for the
word (spelled _conoodle_) in 1859, ascribed it "to our American
cousins," though Sala had never visited the U.S. at that time and had
no direct acquaintance with American English.  None of the early
evidence for the word or its derivatives in the OED is demonstrably
American.  Bret Harte used the word in an 1897 story, though Harte
had not resided in the U.S. since 1878.

Merriam files have only scattered evidence for the word before the
1970's, and nothing to suggest it is an Americanism.  A cite from the
1909 supplement to the _Century Dictionary_ looks British.  The word
was used in the October, 1925 issue of _The American Mercury_, but
apparently in the sense "sing off-key" ("...and the sweet songs of John
McClure and Sara Teasdale, and the harsh canoodling of the Greenwich
Villagers"); this usage is a hapax as far as I can tell.  _Notes &
Queries_ for Sept. 3, 1927, recorded it as "Nottingham dialect" for
"to cuddle."  The word was current in Australia in 1928, to judge
from a cite from the _New South Wales Bulletin_ for Sept. 26 ("This
fuss over the possibility of the Alsatian dog canoodling with lady
dingoes annoys me.  There is no wolf strain in the breed, as is
commonly supposed.")  The next cite is from the Aug. 11, 1945 issue
of the AMA _Journal_  ("A canoe is not built for canoodling and
should only be taken when you want to get somewhere"); then from _The
World, the Flesh, and Father Smith_ (1945) by the British novelist
Bruce Marshall (1899-1987) ("...the best way of dealing with lovers
when found canoodling in church doors"); then from the Apr. 30, 1949
_Saturday Review_ ("Plenty of local color, ample action, drinking,
and canoodling"); then from the novel _Beat the Devil_ (1953) by the
British writer Claud Cockburn (1904-81), using the pseudonym James
Helvick ("...she...stretched out her hand to touch Dannreuther's arm.
('There was more bloody canoodling,' reported the major.)". Finally,
there are "two lovebirds canoodling in a cage" in _Animal Psychology_
(1961) by the British veterinarian R.H. Smythe.

A note in our etymology file by Harold Bender, etymologist for W34,
comes to the conclusion that the word is not an Americanism, from the
occurrence of a derivative in the novel _A Tale of Two Villages_:  "I
have found in Ethel Sidgwick's "A Tale of Two Villages," N.Y. and
London, 1931, p. 214:  'She was not a bad sort, old Clo...better than
Cutler's one, the canoodly sister.'  I should say, from the story,
that the word means here 'flirtatious, sentimental, soft.'  The story
is written by an Englishwoman and laid in rural England, with careful
local color and vocabulary."

B.J. Whiting considered the word "at least obsolescent" in 1945,
though in a 1947 note in _American Speech_ he pointed out a couple
recent American uses of the word, one in a variant form _kidoodling_.

The word reappears strongly in the 1970's, about evenly divided
between British and American publications in our cites, and has been fairly
current ever since.  It attracted the attention of Thomas Middleton,
who wrote about words in those years for _Saturday Review_.  Our
files only contain extracts of what Middleton said about _canoodle_
(I have not yet looked up the actual articles).  He quotes
extensively from a letter from W.E. Umbach, the etymologist for
Webster's New World:

-After having identified the word as definitely an Americanism, dated
-in one of Mencken's works in the early 1850s and located by him as an
-expression common in the Missouri-Mississippi basin, I began to
-consider the likelihood of Mencken's explanation--that it is an
-American extravagant invention created on the frontier.  It occurred
-to me that I might consider the possibility of borrowing from one of
-the languages which have contributed to the American vocabulary...But
-I referred to the old _Muret-Sanders Encyclopedic Dictionary_ and
-found, to my delight, _knudeln_, defined as 'to cuddle.'....It is
-almost impossible to escape the conclusion that it was one of the
-German words brought by German immigrants who came to the
-Missouri-Mississippi basin in the years following the Revolution of
-1848....

Unfortunately, Umbach does not say where Mencken wrote this.  It's
not in _The American Language_, where Mencken says nothing about the
date or locale of the word.  In the light of the citational evidence
set out above, I am very dubious about _canoodle_ as an Americanism.
If it is not an Americanism, the _knudeln_ etymology is extremely
weak, despite the surface correspondence in sound and sense.

W3 based its etymology on the entry in Wright's _English Dialect
Dictionary_, which has the following under _canoodle_:

-CANOODLE, sb. Som[erset].  A donkey; also applied to persons.  w.Som.
-N & Q. (1879) 5th S. xi. 197.  e.Som. Used also fig. of one who makes
-love foolishly or 'spooneys' [sic--JLR] (G.S. [George Sweetman,
-Wright's east Somerset correspondent--JLR])  [Not known to our
-correspondents in w.Som.]

Interestingly, the _Survey of English Dialects: the Dictionary and
Grammar_, based on Orton's survey, has an entry _canuter_ for
"donkey" from Devonshire.  This is surely in the same family as
_canoodle_ from Somersetshire, though the SED dictionary editors
append the peculiar note:  "SBM headword queried as _cornutor_, but
more probably formed on Canute, English king with reputation for
obstinacy."  Basing the form of a lemma on off-the-cuff etymologizing
doesn't seem like a good idea....

The association of donkeys with foolishness and lovesickness must be
the basis for connecting the two senses, though it seems rather
tenuous.  A similar relation may hold between _spoon_ "simpleton",
_spoony_ "sentimentally foolish" and _spoon_ "to caress, pet"--maybe.
All in all, though, the OED and RHHDAS are probably wise to stick
with "origin unknown" for _canoodle_.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Feb 1998 16:07:20 -0600
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: canoodle [long]

Jim Rader wrote:

> Ms. Lubell--
>
> Seeing that you sent a query about the etymology of _canoodle_ both
> to this office (left on an editor's voicemail) and the list, I will
> reply to both at the same time.  Sorry if this is too late for your
> deadlines.
>
> An article by B.J. Whiting that appeared in _American Speech_ in 1945
> seems to have been overlooked in the recent discussion of this word.
> Whiting pointed out that the acceptance of _canoodle_ as an
> Americanism in the standard dictionaries was questionable.

                                <snip>

When the thread on "canoodle" began, I had a vague memory of running across
that word in a different context: classic mystery novels by British authors.
The recollection is getting stronger, but I haven't identified the source . .
.  the word was put in the mouth of a "great detective" character with lots of
persona-setting individual speech mannerisms (and, as I recall, a large middle
reminiscent of Nero Wolfe).  I'm pretty sure that the author was John Dickson
Carr/
Carter Dickson.  (Same author, two noms de plume.)

Following up on this lead, I just talked to a colleague who collects mystery
novels.  She couldn't help with a Carr/Dickson cite (partly because she doesn't
like locked-room mysteries in the first place), but she suggests that her only
familiarity with the word canoodle comes out of the British side of the
Atlantic.  She has the impression that the word does turn up in  mysteries by
several British authors writing in the 1920s/1930s.  Nope, no citations came to
mind.

I'll keep following this lead until my curiosity bone stops itching.  Just
thought I'd pass it on FWIW.  Anyhow, I really DO like the Dickson/Carr
oeuvre.  It will be fun to go back to it.

-- mike salovesh
<salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois
university                                                        PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Feb 1998 21:40:49 EST
From:    Laura Johnson <laurance[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JUNO.COM>
Subject: Re: canoodle [long]

Total newbie here who has somehow gotten on this list by accident in
trying to subscribe to another list on a completely unrelated topic.

I notice someone referred to John Dickson Carr in a paragraph about
British authors.  This author was not British at all.  He was from
Uniontown, Pennsylvania, and when he and my mother were kids, she knew
him by name and by sight.  Uniontown is a smallish town in the southwest
of the state, not too far from Pittsburgh, and since I seem to have
accidentally dropped into a list on dialect, you might be aware that
there were some regional words there.

The side of the road was the berm, not the shoulder, and we'd toodle, or
maybe tootle on over instead of come on over.  We kids would rootsch
around, whereas other kids would fidget.  We'd momix things up, while
other people would mess and mix things up.  I heard my mother use these
words, but I never heard them from anyone else until I met someone from
Uniontown who spoke of the words peculiar to that area.  This is all I
can think of on the spur of the moment.

And now I will go and try to find out what happened to the list I was
trying to subscribe to.  But if you don't mind, I'd like to stick around
here on your list for a while, because language and dialects are of great
interest to me.

Laura

_____________________________________________________________________
You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail.
Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com
Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866]

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 20 Feb 1998 23:02:33 -0500
From:    "Bethany K. Dumas" <dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU>
Subject: Definition of "ebonic"?

I just received a post from someone on another list with the ff. text
embedded in it; please note the use of "ebonic vocabulary and
structure." (I don't think that Robert Hall is resposible for this!)

> I took a linguistics course or two at Cornellin the early 70's when I
> was studying French and comparative literature -- Robert Hall was still
> around then.  In a French philology course he gave us one factoid that
> has truly stuck with me, that there are at least 4 usage levels in any
> literate culture:  formal standard (educated people writing), informal
> standard (educated people talking), informal substandard (what my
> criminal and neglect clients use, with "ebonic" vocabulary and
                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> structure*), and best of all, formal substandard, found in every police
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> report I've ever read.

Bethany

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Feb 1998 to 20 Feb 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (2/19/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 17 Feb 1998 to 18 Feb 1998             98-02-19 00:01:17
There are 10 messages totalling 193 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. "gool" for "goal" (2)
  2. bean bag (2)
  3. "doubled perfect" (4)
  4. dish (n.) = gossip
  5. [ha:di]

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Feb 1998 08:58:10 -0600
From:    Thomas Creswell <creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET>
Subject: Re: "gool" for "goal"

In my southside Chicago 1920's childhood, when playing hide and seek,
the child who was "it" would hide his eyes and count up to 100 by fives
then cry out, "Here I come, ready or not.  All around gool's it."
"Gool" referred to the tree truink or whatever the it child leaned
against to hide his eyes while counting.  "It", of course meant "the
child who must count and then seek for others who were hiding.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Feb 1998 11:23:01 -0500
From:    Karen Lubell <lubell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NYTIMES.COM>
Subject: Re: bean bag

Since beanbag seemed to be a political term, I checked Safire's Political
Dictionary, and came up with what might be the origin of the term.  The
following is on page 46-47:


        "His early experience,' wrote Finley Peter Dunne of his creation,
saloon-keeping philosopher Mr. Dooley, "gave him wisdom in discussing public
affairs. 'Politics,' he says, 'ain't beanbag.  'Tis a man's game; an' women,
childher, an' pro-hybitionists'd do well to keep out iv it."
        The above quotation is taken from the preface to "Mr. Dooley in
Peace and War," published in 1898; it had been used earlier by Dunne, on
October 5, 1895, in an essay in the Chicago Evening Post.
        A beanbag is a cloth bag partly filled with beans (or, more
recently, plastic beads), easily catchable, used in a children's game of the
same name.  In Mr. Dooley's use, the child's play made a dramatic comparison
with a man's game, and has been used for that purpose ever since (though the
"man's game" has recently been replaced by HARDBALL).
        "Carter's flaw as a political leader," wrote Jack Germond and Jules
Witcover in a column that appeared in the Washington Starr on September 14,
1977, "has always been his massive self-assurance, his total confidence that
no one would believe him capable of political knavery or personal weakness.
But in the Bert Lance case, what was in question was his sophistication.
And, as Mr. Dooley told us long ago, politics ain't beanbag."





At 04:18 PM 2/17/98 -0500, you wrote:
>    Wonderful cites, Mr. Kane!  It may be, in fact, that I misheard
>    "beanbag" as "beanbaggin'"--the gerund form wouldn't be used, right?
>    I assume the original ref. is to a simple kids' game, kind of like
>    hacky-sack (ever heard of that one?).
>
>    (Hmmm, I read _The Nation_; wonder how I missed "beanbag"?!)
>
>
Karen Lubell
Researcher
William Safire's "On Language"
The New York Times

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:10:24 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: bean bag

At 11:23 AM -0500 2/18/98, Karen Lubell wrote:

>...
>        "Carter's flaw as a political leader," wrote Jack Germond and Jules
>Witcover in a column that appeared in the Washington Starr on September 14,
>1977, "has always been his massive self-assurance,...
>

"the Washington Starr" indeed.  Hmph.  Let's watch that retroactive
investigative imperialism, shall we?  Talk about overreach...

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Feb 1998 12:59:41 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: "gool" for "goal"

    If by 'pour' you mean [pur], we didn't say that in Minnesota for either
    'pour water' or 'poor people' (though the likelihood of [pur] would be
    greater with 'poor').  I think I switched to [pur] for 'poor' as I got
    (hyper?)educated; in southern Ohio I use either form and no longer
    worry about it.  (A reverse corollary is that I no longer strain to say
    [ruf] for 'roof'; Northern [rUf] is OK again, after all those years of
    switching.)

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:08:44 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: "doubled perfect"

We've had some discussion recently of words like "drownded". What would you call
 them?

Here's a data point that just came up on another list I subscribe to:
        I stay side tracted in my cleaning .

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:32:43 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: "doubled perfect"

    'Side trac(k)ted' _may_ arise from a confusion of 'track' and 'tract';
    thus the latter becomes regular past/p.p. 'tracted.'  Admittedly, I
    haven't heard 'tract' used as a verb, but we had a former colleague (no
    names) who said and wrote 'tract' for our dual-track linguistics
    program: thus, we have a theoretical tract and an applied tract.
    Anyone else ever encounter this?!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Feb 1998 14:56:45 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: "doubled perfect"

At 2:32 PM -0500 2/18/98, Beverly Flanigan wrote:
>    'Side trac(k)ted' _may_ arise from a confusion of 'track' and 'tract';
>    thus the latter becomes regular past/p.p. 'tracted.'  Admittedly, I
>    haven't heard 'tract' used as a verb, but we had a former colleague (no
>    names) who said and wrote 'tract' for our dual-track linguistics
>    program: thus, we have a theoretical tract and an applied tract.
>    Anyone else ever encounter this?!

I've heard/seen both tenure tract and digestive track.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Feb 1998 15:58:07 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: dish (n.) = gossip

    Re. 'dish':  _Newsweek_ this week noted that Monica L. and her mother
    love to dish and shop (or was it dishing and shopping?).  Interesting
    collocation....

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Feb 1998 13:57:20 -0800
From:    Peter Richardson <prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: "doubled perfect"

...and let's not forget that which binds modern civilization together:
duct tape. In my local farm supply store there's a stack of the
stuff with a wooden cutout of a duck on top.

Peter Richardson

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 18 Feb 1998 17:59:12 +0100
From:    naida gonzalez <ng046566[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAMIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ha:di]

How do i drop from this mailing list?  Please help!

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Feb 1998 to 18 Feb 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (2/18/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 16 Feb 1998 to 17 Feb 1998             98-02-18 00:00:19
There are 12 messages totalling 341 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. [ha:di]
  2. =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCJV8layVtJSRLXUx1GyhK?= (2)
  3. Magic City (Miami? Orlando? Fort Worth?)
  4. flattening (2)
  5. "gool" for "goal" (3)
  6. bean bag (2)
  7. US/NIS Curriculum Development Exchange Program

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:13:49 EST
From:    David Carlson <Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: [ha:di]

Thanks, Don.  That was what I wanted.  Flattening certainly rolls off the
tongue more smoothly than monophthongization.  I'll introduce it my students
with the caveat that it is not official or proper or technical vocabulary.

Re the flattening of the au diphthong: this is (was) common to me in my youth
when many of my Roman Catholic friends referred to the Lord's Prayer as the
[a:] Father.  The professor of linguistics I had in grad school at UMass
thought that Archbishop Cushing ruined JFK's funeral when he intoned [a:]
Father.

David R. Carlson
34 Spaulding St.
Amherst MA

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:18:46 +0900
From:    ICHIRO OTA <ota[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLA.KAGOSHIMA-U.AC.JP>
Subject: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCJV8layVtJSRLXUx1GyhK?=

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$J$/ (J
 $B$F;DG0$G$7$?!# (J

 $B$5$F!"$4Js9p$,CY$/$J$j$^$7$?$,!" (JObserving and Analysing Natural Language
 $B!!$N (J
 $BK]Lu8"$,<h$l$^$7$?!# (J
 $B$H$$$&$3$H$G!"K\5$$G:n6H$r?J$a$J$1$l$P$J$i$J$/$J$j$^$7$?!#!J>P!K (J

 $B>>ED$5$s$K$bF~$C$F$b$i$C$?$3$H$G$9$7!"$^$?>>ED$5$s$+$i$NMWK>$b$"$C$F!" (J
 $B0lEYA40w$=$m$C$F2q9g$r3+$3$&$+$H;W$C$F$$$^$9!# (J
 $BFbMF$OLu8l!"BN:[Ey$NE}0l$9$k$H$$$&$3$H$,Cf?4$K$J$k$+$H;W$$$^$9!# (J
 $B$=$NB>$K$b$$$m$$$m$HOC$79g$C$F$*$/$Y$-$3$H$,$"$k$+$b$7$l$^$;$s!# (J
 $B$*5$$E$-$KE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]$O$*CN$i$;$/$[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]$5$$!# (J

 $BF|Dx$G$9$,!"#37n2<=\$K$H9M$($F$$$^$9!# (J
 $B?XFb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]h[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]8$,$?$7$+ (J24.25 $BF|$,$[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]$a$[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]$H$*$C$7$c$C$F$$$^$7$?$,!"$=$N$"$H$K$I$&
$+$H (J
 $B9M$($F$$$^$9!# (J
 $B%m%s%0$5$s$N$4ET9g$r$*J9$+$;$/$[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]$5$$$^$;$s$+!# (J

 $B$=$l$+$i!"2q9g$G$"$l$P!"$I$3$+>l=j$,I,MW$K$J$j$^$9!# (J
 $B;d0J30$NJ}!9$O4X[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]>$K$*=;$^$$$G$9$N$G!"$I$3$+$*It20$r$4Ds6!4j$($l$P$H;W$C$F$$
 (J
 $B$^$9!# (J
 $BBg:e>[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]0~$G$N2DG=[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]-$O$I$&$G$7$g$&$+!) (J
 $B$3$NE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]$b$h$m$7$1$l$P$*D4$Y$$$?$[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]$1$l$P9,$$$G$9!# (J

 $B$G$O!"$h$m$7$/$*4j$$$$$?$7$^$9!# (J

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Feb 1998 14:23:26 +0900
From:    ICHIRO OTA <ota[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLA.KAGOSHIMA-U.AC.JP>
Subject: Re: =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCJV8layVtJSRLXUx1GyhK?=

I am very sorry to send a private letter to ADS.


=======================
Ichiro Ota
Department of Humanites
Kagoshima University
JAPAN
=======================

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Feb 1998 00:07:40 -0600
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Magic City (Miami? Orlando? Fort Worth?)

>   (Brownsville, Texas)--Metropolis of the "Magic Valley."

All 25+ cities in the Magic Valley of Texas use this term.  Brownsville is
the largest city in the Valley (which is a delta rather than a valley).  I
think other areas, perhaps in California and other states, also have used
the term "Magic Valley."

Local Hispanics pun and call it "el valle tra'gico."

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:47:12 +0000
From:    David Bergdahl <david.bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: flattening

Pittsburgh is famous for its monophthongal versions of {AU} esp. on
the [sa:t saId]; the shibboleth {downtown} is used to discriminate
true south-siders from pretenders.
--
 _____________________________________________________________________
david.bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ohiou.edu                Ohio University / Athens
http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl         Ellis Hall 114c
tel: (740) 593-2783                     Office hours:
fax: (740) 593-2818                         MTThF 10:10-11 a.m.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Feb 1998 10:47:43 -0500
From:    Robert Kelly <kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BARD.EDU>
Subject: Re: flattening

a query on Pittsburgh:

a dear friend of mine from the outskirts (SW) of that city always realizes
gold as Gould, and goal (as in hockey) is homophonous with ghoul.  Is that
idiolect, or common, or basic to the city or its purlieus?  Since fifth is
fift in her speech (as in my university professor friends from eastern
Ohio), matching the sa:t for South of the posting, I'm led to ask.

Thanks.

RK

==================================================
Robert Kelly
Division of Literature and Languages, Bard College
Annandale-on-Hudson NY 12504
Voice Mail: 914-758-7600 Box 7205
kelly[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bard.edu

On Tue, 17 Feb 1998, David Bergdahl wrote:

> Pittsburgh is famous for its monophthongal versions of {AU} esp. on
> the [sa:t saId]; the shibboleth {downtown} is used to discriminate
> true south-siders from pretenders.
> --
>  _____________________________________________________________________
> david.bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ohiou.edu                Ohio University / Athens
> http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl         Ellis Hall 114c
> tel: (740) 593-2783                     Office hours:
> fax: (740) 593-2818                         MTThF 10:10-11 a.m.
>

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Feb 1998 13:34:12 -0600
From:    Joan Houston Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: "gool" for "goal"

DARE shows the pronunciation "gool" to be chiefly North.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:09:27 -0500
From:    "Bernard W. Kane" <bkane[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TIGGER.JVNC.NET>
Subject: bean bag

At 03:22 PM 2/16/98 -0500, Beverley Flanigan wrote:
<snip>
>    On "Face the Nation" yesterday, somebody described the grilling
>    procedure (pun intended) of grand juries as "It ain't beanbagging."
>    Source and connotation, anyone?

I have related usage:

"Character may be fate but, as Al Lowenstein tried to teach him [Bob
Kerrey] at the beginning, politics ain't beanbag."
THE NEW REPUBLIC
January 20, 1992

"Robert S. Strauss, the American Ambassador to Russia...told Congress that
the absence of any serious debate on the question of aid to Russia was
'just shocking.' 'This ain't beanbag we're playing,' he said. "These are
big-time issues."
THE NEW YORK TIMES
March 15, 1992

"Admittedly, and in the irritating phrase of the moment, $75,000 'ain't
beanbag.' But nor is it very much money in return for committing the
Democratic Party to a harder line on Cuba."
THE NATION.
June 8, 1992

"Proposition 174 is shaping up as the focus of a multimillion dollar
battle...Howard Ahmanson, who calls himself a 'fundamentalist Episcopalian'
and has been a deep pocket for the Christian right, gave $75,000. They are
not just playing beanbag."
THE NATION.
October 4, 1993

(subhead in big boldface type:)"but it's not beanbag"
"One source close to [investigator] Fiske says, 'It [the Steiner diary]'s
not the Nixon tapes, but it ain't beanbag.'"
TIME
April 4, 1994

"And what of those 'powerful forces' who resent his winning the presidency?
Is politics a contact sport, or bean bag? Of course 'forces' prowl and
scheme along Pennsylvania Avenue."
TIME
May 23, 1994

In sum: DEF = something nugatory, insignificant BUT most often in negative:
not bean bag = NOT to be disregarded
not play bean bag = to be extremely serious; playing for money; playing for
all the marbles
NOTE frequently in political context

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:18:52 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: bean bag

    Wonderful cites, Mr. Kane!  It may be, in fact, that I misheard
    "beanbag" as "beanbaggin'"--the gerund form wouldn't be used, right?
    I assume the original ref. is to a simple kids' game, kind of like
    hacky-sack (ever heard of that one?).

    (Hmmm, I read _The Nation_; wonder how I missed "beanbag"?!)

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:01:42 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: "gool" for "goal"

    I never thought I'd hear the pronunciation of 'goal' as 'gool' (=ghoul)
    again--we said it in Minnesota, but I haven't heard it for 30 years or
    more.  I associate it with my parents' generation, dying out in my own,
    and dead now.  I've asked my students from up North (Minnesota and
    Cleveland) as well as from Pittsburgh and central PA, and no one has
    heard 'gool."  I wonder if the Pittsburgh speaker was a Northerner by
    birth, and perhaps older?

    A possible variant is [gUl], with a lax vowel (maybe even a schwa),
    which I understand is Scots-Irish (so says a colleague from London);
    but where did [gul] come from?

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Feb 1998 18:16:49 -0500
From:    Kate Polzin <kpolzin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IREX.ORG>
Subject: US/NIS Curriculum Development Exchange Program

US/NIS CURRICULUM DEVELOPMENT EXCHANGE PROGRAM

The International Research & Exchanges Board is currently
accepting applications for the United States Information Agency
Curriculum Development Exchange Program (CDEP). CDEP is a two-way
exchange designed to foster democratization and educational reform in
the New Independent States (NIS) through the provision of four-month
consultations and curricula development programs to educators and
advanced graduate students in the humanities and social sciences from
the United States or Armenia, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Georgia,
Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, the Russian Federation, Ukraine, and
Uzbekistan.

CDEP participants are affiliated with host universities in the United
States or the NIS, and participate in graduate seminars concerning
methodology and content of their specific fields of study, consult
with department faculty on course design and teaching materials, and
lead part of graduate or undergraduate courses to advance their own
teaching skills.

*****************************************************
Opportunities for US Educators and Advanced Graduate Students:
*****************************************************
Eligible candidates are US citizens affiliated with a college or
university as a faculty member or doctoral candidate; able to
function successfully in Russian or other NIS language; experienced in
designing and revising curricula in their academic discipline; and
able to participate during fall 1998.  Grant provisions include
round-trip travel to NIS host institution, supplemental medical
insurance, pre-arranged housing, living stipend and limited allowance
for teaching materials. A limited number of grants are available for
short-term consulting trips (please inquire regarding eligibility).

****************************************************
Opportunities for US Host Institutions
*****************************************************
NIS educators and advanced graduate students have already
been selected through an open competition for the Curriculum
Development Exchange Program.  Accredited colleges and universities
are invited to apply to host these participants for one semester
during fall 1998.  NIS participants' travel and living expenses are
paid; participants also receive medical insurance and allowances for
professional development activities and teaching materials.  Host
institutions are required to allow participants to observe graduate
level pedagogy or field specific courses, appoint an appropriate
faculty member as a mentor, and provide training in and access to
email and the Internet.

The deadline for US participant and host applications is February 27,
1998.  Application materials, guidelines, and award criteria are
available via the IREX website at http://www.irex.org/grants/cdep/.
For further information regarding the Curriculum Development Exchange
Program, please contact IREX at (202) 628-8188 or irex[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]irex.org.

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 17 Feb 1998 16:58:07 +0000
From:    Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: "gool" for "goal"

Do speakers who have this feature have a similar one before r?

My aunt once told me about a woman of her acquaintance who would "poor"
water out of a pitcher.  My aunt said she asked her once what she
called people who didn't have any money, and she said, "Oh, you mean
pore people?"  I have no information as to where this was.

----------------------
Peter A. McGraw
Linfield College
McMinnville, Oregon
pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linfield.edu

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Feb 1998 to 17 Feb 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (2/17/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 15 Feb 1998 to 16 Feb 1998             98-02-17 00:01:47
There are 8 messages totalling 252 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. John's = John's family=John's folks
  2. Online Dictionary of Street Drug Slang
  3. civil disobedience (2)
  4. new phrases?
  5. internet language
  6. E-0ops:     ADS newsletter on the web
  7. Magic City (Miami? Orlando? Fort Worth?)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 16 Feb 1998 09:32:52 +0000
From:    Peter McGraw <pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: John's = John's family=John's folks

The usage was alive in rural Iowa at least as late as my grandparents'
generation.  On a visit there in the late 60s I noticed my great aunt
(wife of a hog farmer by then retired to Knoxville) referring to her
sons and their families as "Verlin's" and "Dale's." My father (who grew
up in Des Moines) confirms that the usage was not idiosyncratic, but
fairly widespread, though mostly rural.

I happened to mention this to a colleague in Dayton, Ohio, one time,
and she said, "Yes--I hate that!"  I didn't follow up and ask where she
had heard it, but since she had no connection with Iowa, I assume it
is, or was, more generally Midwestern.

Peter

On Sun, 15 Feb 1998 14:56:57 EST "(Dale F. Coye)" <Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
wrote:

> My Pennsylvania Dutch inlaws refer to their respective families by the
> genitive alone:  "When John's come to visit..." meaning John, his wife
> and children.  I don't know how widespread this is and don't even know
> how to look it up in DARE.  Is it there?   Where I come from (Central
> New York) the old- timers would say "John's folks" which is listed in
> DARE, but there is a nuance to it I noted recently: it can also refer
> to just the husband and wife:  "We went over to John's folks" -- but
> John and his wife live alone.
>
> Dale Coye
> The College of NJ

----------------------
Peter A. McGraw
Linfield College
McMinnville, Oregon
pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linfield.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 16 Feb 1998 13:58:40 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM>
Subject: Online Dictionary of Street Drug Slang

I don't think this link has passed our way before,

Online dictionary of street drug slang:

http://www.drugs.indiana.edu/slang/home.html

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]jerrynet.com

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 16 Feb 1998 14:23:15 -0500
From:    Larry Rosenwald <LROSENWALD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELLESLEY.EDU>
Subject: civil disobedience

        Hi - in the Princeton edition of Thoreau's Reform Papers, Wendell
Glick, the editor, claims that the phrase "civil disobedience" is used for
the first time as the later title of Thoreau's famous essay.  (Glick makes
this claim in passing - what he's interested in figuring out is whether the
title is likely to have been Thoreau's own, given that the essay wasn't
published under this title till after Thoreau's death.)  Is this true?  The
essay was published under this title in 1866.
        The reason I'm interested, by the way, is this - I'm writing an
essay about Thoreau's essay, and if the title "civil disobedience" was a
new coinage, that fact would be important to me in thinking about how the
title was understood by its contemporary readers.
        If there's a reference book that answers this question, please
forgive my ignorance and just send me there.
        Best, Larry Rosenwald, Wellesley College

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 16 Feb 1998 15:22:51 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: new phrases?

    Another "not too bright" phrase, just encountered in a _New Yorker_
    review of a new play called "Griller," about a barbeque fiend: The
    protagonist has a mother-in-law who's "a few sandwiches short of a
    picnic."

    On "Face the Nation" yesterday, somebody described the grilling
    procedure (pun intended) of grand juries as "It ain't beanbagging."
    Source and connotation, anyone?

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 16 Feb 1998 16:01:46 EST
From:    Boyd <FEN00BHD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNCCVM.UNCC.EDU>
Subject: Re: internet language

To add to Jeutonne's comments: you might want to look at notions of contact
and change in the virtual world as they undergird some of the issues about
telling newbies from habitues. Lexical items are very easy to pick up and
sprinkle about, even when not always used with precision. J & I find that
people writing to each other in the virtual universe adapt a number of their
face-to-face strategies to the medium, but within the preferences they have
as individuals. They interact in a variety of interesting ways, from the lexi-
con up through the macroproposition. This is part of the reason that J & I
think e-discourse, at least in asynchronous conferencing (and other asynch.
interactions), is register-ial. You might want to check writings on this topic
by Kathleen Ferrara or Harriet Wilkins. Hope this helps -- Boyd Davis

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:02:52 -0500
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: civil disobedience

At 02:23 PM 2/16/98 -0500, you wrote:
>        Hi - in the Princeton edition of Thoreau's Reform Papers, Wendell
>Glick, the editor, claims that the phrase "civil disobedience" is used for
>the first time as the later title of Thoreau's famous essay.  (Glick makes
>this claim in passing - what he's interested in figuring out is whether the
>title is likely to have been Thoreau's own, given that the essay wasn't
>published under this title till after Thoreau's death.)  Is this true?  The
>essay was published under this title in 1866....
>
>        Best, Larry Rosenwald, Wellesley College
>

FWIW, OED2 attests nothing earlier, and comments thus (at civil a.):

3c. civil disobedience: the refusal to obey the laws, tax demands, etc., of
a government as part of a political campaign.

Thoreau's essay (see quot. 1866) was entitled `Resistance to Civil
Government' when first published in =C6sthetic Papers, ed. E. Peabody=
 (1849).

1866 Thoreau Yankee in Canada 123 (title) Civil disobedience

****

That is the earliest of the ten cites in OED2 of "c.d."

Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:07:21 EST
From:    Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: E-0ops:     ADS newsletter on the web

Sorry to have stuffed everyone's mailboxes with a mailing that I intended just
for the ADS webmaster.

But now you all know that the latest ADS newsletter is done. It's at the
printer; should be in the first-class mail to all ADS members by the end of
the week. So you'll have it shortly the old-fashioned way.

PageMaker 6.5 is able to convert a publication to HTML. That's what I did, and
then sent the HTML version as an attachment - intended specifically for Diane
Lillie, but inadvertently sent to the whole ADS-L. I suppose if you have web-
page-creating software, you could use it to make something coherent of the
download. Or maybe not.  I'm just beginning to get my web feet wet.

- Allan Metcalf

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 16 Feb 1998 17:08:07 EST
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Magic City (Miami? Orlando? Fort Worth?)

"They call it (Miami) the Magic City."
--60 MINUTES (CBS tv show), 15 February 1998.

     Miami is the Magic City?  Why?  Isn't Orlando the Magic City?  After all,
doesn't it have a basketball team called the Orlando Magic?  And Disneyworld?
     A search of the usual suspects (OED, DARE, RHHDAS, DA, Mencken) fails to
give any help at all on "Magic City."  However, research shows that "Magic
City" is actually the most popular of American city nicknames, followed by
"Wonder City" and "Gate City."
     The earliest citation I have is this, from the Baltimore Sun, 22
September 1884, pg. 1, col. 4:

     THE MAGIC CITY OF TEXAS.--Fort Worth is styled the "Magic City" of Texas,
and with good reason.  In 1880 its population was 6,600, whilst a recently
completed census shows that it has now 22,189, an increase since 1876 of
21,000.  In 1880 the assessed valuation of property was $1,509,043, whilst now
it is $5,341,090, being an increase for the past year of $1,489,317.

     Thus, a city is not "magic" because it can pull a rabbit out of a hat or
name your card.  It's "magic" because it grows like magic out of next to
nothing.
      Here are some others:

1890 (Cheyenne, Wyoming)--A newspaper was THE MAGIC CITY RECORD.
1893 (Pawnee, Oklahoma)--A newspaper in this town was also called MAGIC CITY
RECORD.
1894 (Chicago, Illinois)--More than one book called the city that hosted the
Columbian Exposition THE MAGIC CITY.  There was also a Chicago newspaper by
this title.
1898 (South Omaha, Nebraska)--The local newspaper was the MAGIC CITY HOOF AND
HORN.
1902 (Dubuque, Iowa)--The local newspaper was THE MAGIC CITY.
1908 (Minot, North Dakota)--The local newspaper was the MAGIC CITY DEMOCRAT.
1933 (Chicago, Illinois)--A book was titled THE MAGIC CITY: JOHN & JANE AT THE
WORLD'S FAIR (Century of Progress International Exposition, 1933-1934).
1940 (San Francisco, California)--A book was called TREASURE ISLAND, "THE
MAGIC CITY," 1939-1940; THE STORY OF THE GOLDEN GATE INTERNATIONAL EXPOSITION.
1942--Using the American Thesaurus of Slang, we see:
   (Miami, Florida)--City of Opportunities, Magic City, Wonder City of the
World.
   (Birmingham, Alabama)--Magic City, Magic City of the South.
   (Anniston, Alabama)--City of Churches, Magic City.
   (Moberly, Missouri)--Magic City.
   (Billings, Montana)--Magic City.
   (Brownsville, Texas)--Metropolis of the "Magic Valley."
1960 (Miami, Florida)--The Dade County Planning Department published MAGIC
CITY CENTER PLAN FOR ACTION; A GENERAL FRAMEWORK FOR REVITALIZING THE CENTRAL
BUSINESS DISTRICT, MIAMI, FLORIDA.
1963 (Marceline, Missouri)--The NYPL has a pamphlet titled THE MAGIC CITY,
MARCELINE, MISSOURI, DIAMOND JUBILEE CELEBRATION, JUNE 29 to JULY 4, 1963.
1967 (Cheyenne, Wyoming)--A book by the Centennial Historical Committee was
CHEYENNE, THE MAGIC CITY OF THE PLAINS.
1972 (Moberly, Missouri)--The local newspaper was the MAGIC CITY FREE PRESS.
1973 (Los Angeles, California)--Sun Ra's song THE MAGIC CITY refers to L.A.
1976 (Minot, North Dakota)--A local newspaper was called THE MAGIC CITY SUN.
1977 (Millinochee, Maine)--A book called MAGIC CITY DOCTOR was about this
town.
1981 (Miami, Florida)--A book was published by Arva Moore Parks called THE
MAGIC CITY--MIAMI.
1982 (San Diego, California)--A book was called BALBOA PARK EXPOSITIONS,
1915-1936; THE MAGIC CITY, A BOOK OF DAYS.

     That's a lot of magic, but those little elves can get around.

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Feb 1998 to 16 Feb 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (2/16/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 14 Feb 1998 to 15 Feb 1998             98-02-16 00:00:06
This message contains more text than QuickMail can display. The entire message
 has been enclosed as a file.

There are 19 messages totalling 2012 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. [ha:di]
  2. Yellow dog Democrats (3)
  3. ADS newsletter on the web?
  4. Cost of living
  5. Treasure State (Montana); Sooner State (Oklahoma)
  6. V.P.; H.Q.; O.I.C.; Weazel; Foozle; Vast right-wing conspiracy
  7. Hello (again)
  8. Newspaper terms (possible "bulldog" edition)
  9. John's = John's family=John's folks
 10. Bootleg; Canoodle
 11. "nudeln", "knudeln", & "canoodle"
 12. internet language (4)
 13. Clarus est!  "Knudeln" IS the source of "Canoodle"
 14. "Blue Dog" Democrat

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 14 Feb 1998 23:07:44 -0600
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: [ha:di]

David R. Carlson wrote:

>... But then, I'm unfamiliar with the term <flattening> used to describe the
>process....
>
>Nevertheless, the vowel in question here is, as has already been pointed out,
>the small printed "a", a vowel completely familiar to me as a native of
>Eastern New England. (Norwood MA to be specific, some 14 miles south and a
>little west of Fenway Park.)  I have it in <half>, <laugh>, <path>, as well as
>in <cart>, <barn>, and the like.  The vertical centered dot to the right of it
>indicates  a compensatory lengthening   for the lack of postvocalic /r/.  It
>is included in all of the vowel charts I have handy from PEAS,  the New
>England and LAMSAS Handbooks and LAUM, and I would describe it as a lower low
>front unrounded vowel.   There is not much discussion of it in any of these
>sources: Harold Allen says that it is found in <cart> and <barn> in eastern
>New England. Incidentally, I also have the [a] vowel in <father>, but not in
><pot> and <bother>.
>
>When I was at McDavid's NEH seminar in 1977 Mike Dressman told me that [au]
>diphthongs were monophthongized as well as the [ai] diphthong, resulting in
>[a:]. I'm still not comfortable with flattening.
>
>In the early 1970s my brother and his wife moved from Norwood MA to Kingsport
>TN.
>They were suprised to heard the local cheerleaders and the crowd encouraging
>the local football team to [fa:t], [fa:t], [fa:t].
>
>I've been waiting for Don Lance to straighten us all out on this.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, David, but this one's pretty big -- a
melange of several things. I can make only a few comments, not "straighten
it all out" by any means.  Flattening is a non-technical term that
Southerners use for their monophthingized [ai] --> [a].  As you point out,
the single dot indicates "half-lengthening," whatever the context or
dialect.  In New England, "broad a" is the popular term used for your
vowels in <half>, <cart>, etc.  The feature [+flat] has been used by some
phonologists, but at the moment I can't remember what the articulatory of
distributional characteristics of [+flat] are.  But [+flat] and
"flattening" are certainly not the same thing.  I don't have an explanation
for how "flat" and "broad" were chosen for these allophones/diaphones.

The people who monophthongize (or flatten, if you prefer) [au] to [a] are
not the same ones who [fa:t] hard on the football field.  I hear /au/
"flattening" in Midwestern dialects when the /au/ diphthong precedes an
unstressed syllable, as in "cloddy" for "cloudy" and "consul" for "council."

I was gonna continue just lurking on this one, till David Hwaet prodded me.
Is this what you wanted?

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 14 Feb 1998 23:27:39 -0600
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: Yellow dog Democrats

Recently I heard a Southern politician (can't remember who) say that
someone "would vote for a yellow dog before he'd vote for a Republican."
The comment implies that even if the yellow dog were a Libertarian he would
vote for him rather than a Republican.  I'd heard the term used this way
before and hoped to remember particulars of what I heard recently in case
this term came up again on ads-l, but alas ---
.  It was briefly discussed a year or so ago.

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 15 Feb 1998 09:40:32 -0500
From:    Elizabeth Gibbens <gibbens[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EROLS.COM>
Subject: Re: Yellow dog Democrats

Dear All--

        There's a wonderful line in the movie _Crimes of the Heart_:  "He ain't
 a
liberal, he's a Democratic."

                                                        Elizabeth Gibbens

----------
> From: Donald M. Lance <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
> To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
> Subject: Re: Yellow dog Democrats
> Date: Sunday, February 15, 1998 12:27 AM
>
> Recently I heard a Southern politician (can't remember who) say that
> someone "would vote for a yellow dog before he'd vote for a Republican."
> The comment implies that even if the yellow dog were a Libertarian he
would
> vote for him rather than a Republican.  I'd heard the term used this way
> before and hoped to remember particulars of what I heard recently in case
> this term came up again on ads-l, but alas ---
> .  It was briefly discussed a year or so ago.
>
> DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 15 Feb 1998 13:28:01 +0000
From:    Buchmann <buchmann[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Re: Yellow dog Democrats

The meaning here MIGHT have been that he
would vote for ANY Democrat rather than
for a Republican.

------------------------------

Date:    Sun, 15 Feb 1998 13:47:38 EST
From:    Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: ADS newsletter on the web?

This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--part0_887568458_boundary
Content-ID: <0_887568458[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

Dear Diane,
  I've been very negligent about sending you things for the ADS website. Now
I'm hoping to turn over a new leaf. I've just finished the January 1998 ADS
newsletter, and I've used PageMaker 6.5 to convert it to HTML.
  I will try to attach the HTML file to this message. Its name is
NADSJan1998.html. Please let me know if you get it and if it works. And if it
does, we can then proudly announce it on ADS-L. If it doesn't, I'll try
alternatives.
  Thanks very much! Best wishes - Allan

--part0_887568458_boundary
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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 3.2//EN">=0D<!-- This HTML docume=
nt was generated by PageMaker -->=0D<!-- On Sun Feb 15 12:46:30 1998 from=
 "SuperMac=AA HD:ADS:NADS:NADS 30.1 Jan 98" -->=0D<HTML>=0D<HEAD>=0D<TITL=
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OR=3D"#ffffff">=0D=0D<!-- Generation of PM publication page 1 -->=0D=0D<T=
ABLE BORDER=3D0 CELLSPACING=3D0 CELLPADDING=3D0 LANG=3Den DIR=3DLTR WIDTH=
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IMG SRC=3D"./HtmlExp.gif" WIDTH=3D119 HEIGHT=3D1></TD>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 =
WIDTH=3D105><IMG SRC=3D"./HtmlExp.gif" WIDTH=3D105 HEIGHT=3D1></TD>=0D<TD=
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</TD>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 WIDTH=3D208><IMG SRC=3D"./HtmlExp.gif" WIDTH=3D20=
8 HEIGHT=3D1></TD>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 WIDTH=3D36><IMG SRC=3D"./HtmlExp.gif=
" WIDTH=3D36 HEIGHT=3D1></TD>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD =
COLSPAN=3D1 HEIGHT=3D14>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLSP=
AN=3D3>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 ROWSPAN=3D2 HEIGHT=3D182 WIDTH=3D208 VALIGN=3D"=
TOP">=0D<P>=0D<P>NEWSLETTER  OF  THE=0D<P ALIGN=3D"CENTER">AMERICAN DIALE=
CT SOCIETY=0D<P ALIGN=3D"CENTER">=0D<P ALIGN=3D"CENTER"><B>NADS=0D<P ALIG=
N=3D"CENTER">30.1</B>=0D<HR>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 HEIGHT=3D15>=0D<TR VALIGN=
=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 ROWSPAN=3D3=
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om:     </I>AMERICAN  DIALECT  SOCIETY=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">     Allan =
Metcalf, Executive Secretary=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">     English Departme=
nt=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">     MacMurray College =0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">=
     Jacksonville, Illinois 62650-2590=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY"><B>Address =
Service Requested=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY"> FIRST  =
CLASS</B>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 HEIGHT=3D166>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"L=
EFT">=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 HEIGHT=3D24=
 WIDTH=3D208 VALIGN=3D"TOP">=0D<P =0DALIGN=3D"RIGHT"><B>Vol.30,No.1      =
January 1998</B>=0D<HR>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 HEIGHT=3D24>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TO=
P" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D=
1 ROWSPAN=3D2 HEIGHT=3D240 WIDTH=3D208 VALIGN=3D"TOP">=0D<P =0DALIGN=3D"J=
USTIFY">     2     &#183;Regional Calls for Papers:=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY=
">               Rocky Mountain, Midwest,=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">        =
       South Central=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">     3     &#183;<B>'99 Annua=
l Meeting Call</B>=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">     3     &#183;MLA Call; Pres=
idential Honors=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">     4     &#183;Words of the Year=
 1997=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">     5     &#183;South Atlantic Regional Cal=
l=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">     5     &#183;NWAV(E), NCTE Too=0D<P ALIGN=3D=
"JUSTIFY">     5     &#183;Wolfram at Tamony, April 24=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUST=
IFY">     6     &#183;ADS at ILA, April 18=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">     8 =
    &#183;Our Constitution and Bylaws=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">     10     =
&#183;Our New Books=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">     11     &#183;<I>DARE</I> =
Queries No. 41=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">     12     &#183;<I>DARE</I> Asks =
Other Help Too=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">     =0D<HR>=0D<HR>=0D<TD COLSPAN=
=3D1 HEIGHT=3D10>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 =
HEIGHT=3D229>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D3>=0D<=
TD COLSPAN=3D1 HEIGHT=3D144 WIDTH=3D208 VALIGN=3D"TOP">=0D<P =0DALIGN=3D"=
JUSTIFY"><I>NADS </I>is sent in January, May and =0DSeptember to all ADS =
members. Send ADS dues ($35 per year), queries and news to editor =0Dand =
executive secretary Allan Metcalf, English Department, MacMurray College,=
 =0DJacksonville, Illinois 62650, phone (217) 479-7117 =0Dor (217) 243-34=
03, e-mail AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com.=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY"><I>ADS Web site: =0D</I=
>http://www2.et.byu.edu/~lilliek/ads/index.htm=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY"><I>=
ADS-L discussion list: </I>To join, send =0Dto Listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.eduthe=
 message: =0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">Sub ADS-L Your Name=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 H=
EIGHT=3D144>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 HEIGH=
T=3D7>=0D</TABLE>=0D<HR>=0D=0D<!-- Generation of PM publication page 2 --=
>=0D=0D<TABLE BORDER=3D0 CELLSPACING=3D0 CELLPADDING=3D0 LANG=3Den DIR=3D=
LTR WIDTH=3D"504" COLS=3D"9">=0D<!-- Some browsers do not display table c=
orrectly. -->=0D<!-- The following GIF images are here to work around the=
 problem. -->=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 WIDT=
H=3D24><IMG SRC=3D"./HtmlExp.gif" WIDTH=3D24 HEIGHT=3D1></TD>=0D<TD COLSP=
AN=3D1 WIDTH=3D12><IMG SRC=3D"./HtmlExp.gif" WIDTH=3D12 HEIGHT=3D1></TD>=
=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 WIDTH=3D118><IMG SRC=3D"./HtmlExp.gif" WIDTH=3D118 HEI=
GHT=3D1></TD>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 WIDTH=3D80><IMG SRC=3D"./HtmlExp.gif" WID=
TH=3D80 HEIGHT=3D1></TD>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 WIDTH=3D12><IMG SRC=3D"./HtmlE=
xp.gif" WIDTH=3D12 HEIGHT=3D1></TD>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 WIDTH=3D12><IMG SRC=
=3D"./HtmlExp.gif" WIDTH=3D12 HEIGHT=3D1></TD>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 WIDTH=3D=
198><IMG SRC=3D"./HtmlExp.gif" WIDTH=3D198 HEIGHT=3D1></TD>=0D<TD COLSPAN=
=3D1 WIDTH=3D12><IMG SRC=3D"./HtmlExp.gif" WIDTH=3D12 HEIGHT=3D1></TD>=0D=
<TD COLSPAN=3D1 WIDTH=3D36><IMG SRC=3D"./HtmlExp.gif" WIDTH=3D36 HEIGHT=
=3D1></TD>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 HEIGHT=
=3D12>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1>=0D<TD COLS=
PAN=3D6 HEIGHT=3D12 WIDTH=3D432 VALIGN=3D"TOP">=0D<P =0DALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY"=
><B>CALLS  FOR  PAPERS</B>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 HEIGHT=3D12>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D=
"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D2>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D6 HEIGHT=3D20 WI=
DTH=3D432 VALIGN=3D"TOP">=0D<P =0DALIGN=3D"CENTER"><B>REGIONAL  MEETINGS,=
 FALL 1998</B>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 HEIGHT=3D20>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=
=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D2>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D3 ROWSPAN=3D3 HEIGHT=3D451 =
WIDTH=3D210 VALIGN=3D"TOP">=0D<H1 ALIGN=3D"CENTER">=0D<B>Rocky Mountain R=
egion</B>=0D</H1>=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">In association with RMMLA, Oct. =
=0D8&#173;10; Salt Lake City, Doubletree Hotel.=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY"><B=
><I>February 27</I></B> is the deadline for =0D300-word abstracts to Sess=
ion Chair <B>Simonie =0DHodges</B> (Georgetown Univ.), 2525 Farmcrest Dr.=
 #328, =0DHerndon VA 20171, e-mail simonie[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] mitchell.hitc.com.=0D<P ALIGN=
=3D"JUSTIFY">This session showcases papers on =0Dvarious aspects of Ameri=
can dialects. Examples of previous paper topics include: dialects =0Dof U=
tah, the use of formal and informal pronouns &quot;you&quot; in Spanish-s=
peaking cities, =0DJamaican English in historical plays, and sweet-carbon=
ated-beverage isoglosses in the U.S. =0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">Proposals mu=
st be sent on paper and =0Don 3.5&quot; disk (preferably IBM-compatible =
=0Dformat). If you would like the disk returned to =0Dyou, please enclose=
 a stamped, self-addressed envelope. You will be notified of the chair's =
=0Ddecision by March 15. Complete versions of accepted papers are due to =
the chair by =0DAugust 15 (paper and disk copy). =0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">=
Presenters must be RMMLA members =0Dand may not read papers in more than =
one session.=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">ADS Regional Secretary 1998&#173;99: =
=0D<B>Mary E. Morzinski</B>, Univ. of Wisconsin-La Crosse.=0D<P ALIGN=3D"=
JUSTIFY"><I>Membership</I> in RMMLA is $25 regular, =0D$15 student. Write=
 RMMLA, Washington State =0DUniversity, P.O. Box 642610, Pullman, WA 9916=
4-2610; =0Dphone (509) 335-4198, fax (509) 335-6635 ext. 54198; =0Drmmla[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]=
rmmla.wsu.edu; =0Dhttp://rmmla.wsu.edu/rmmla/guest/aboutrmmla.asp.=0D<P A=
LIGN=3D"JUSTIFY"><I>Future meetings:</I> 1999 Oct. 14&#173;16 =0DSanta Fe=
; 2000 Oct. 12&#173;14 Vancouver.=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D2 HE=
IGHT=3D216 WIDTH=3D210 VALIGN=3D"TOP">=0D<P =0DALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">55455-01=
34; =0Dfelle001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu. The session theme is open.=0D<P ALIGN=
=3D"JUSTIFY">ADS Regional Secretary 1997&#173;98: =0D<B>Beth Lee Simon</B=
>, CM 109, Dept. of English =0Dand Linguistics, IPFW, Fort Wayne, IN 4680=
5; phone (219) 424-8834; =0De-mail simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu.=0D<P ALIG=
N=3D"JUSTIFY"><I>Membership </I>in MMLA is $25 full and =0Dassociate prof=
essors, $20 other faculty, $15 students. Write MMLA, 302 =0DEnglish-Philo=
sophy Bldg., Univ. of Iowa, Iowa City IA =0D52242-1408; phone (319) 335-0=
331; fax (319) 335-3123; e-mail mmla[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiowa.edu.=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY"><I=
>Future meetings:</I> 1999 Nov. 4&#173;6 =0DMinneapolis, Marriott City Ce=
nter; 2000 Nov. 2&#173;4 =0DKansas City, Missouri, Hyatt Regency Crown Ce=
nter; 2001 Nov. 1&#173;3 Cleveland, =0DSheraton City Centre Hotel.=0D<TD =
COLSPAN=3D1 HEIGHT=3D216>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLS=
PAN=3D1 HEIGHT=3D7>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D=
2>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D2 ROWSPAN=3D2 HEIGHT=3D280 WIDTH=3D=
210 VALIGN=3D"TOP">=0D<H1 ALIGN=3D"CENTER">=0D<B>South Central Region</B>=
=0D</H1>=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">In association with SCMLA, Nov. =0D12&#17=
3;14; New Orleans, Radisson.=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY"><B><I>March 15</I></B=
> is the deadline for abstracts =0Dto the meeting chair, <B>Patricia Cuko=
r-Avila</B>, Dept. of English, Univ. of North =0DTexas, Denton TX 76203; =
phone (940) 565-4577; fax (940) 565-4355; e-mail pcavila[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unt.edu.=0D<P AL=
IGN=3D"JUSTIFY">ADS Regional Secretary 1998&#173;99: =0D<B>Charles B. Mar=
tin</B>, Dept. of English, Univ. of =0DNorth Texas, P.O. Box 13827, Dento=
n TX 76203-3827; phone (817) 565-2149, =0De-mail cmartin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.CAS.unt=
.edu.=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY"><I>Membership </I>in SCMLA is $20 full =0Dpr=
ofessors, $15 associate and assistant =0Dprofessors, $10 instructors and =
students. Write Jo Hebert, SCMLA, Dept. of English, =0DTexas A&amp;M Univ=
., College Station TX =0D77843-4227; phone (409) 845-7041; fax (409) 862-=
2292; =0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">e-mail scmla[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acs.tamu.edu; =0D<P ALIGN=3D"J=
USTIFY">http://www-english.tamu.edu/scmla.=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY"><I>Futu=
re meetings:</I> 1999 Oct. 28&#173;30 =0DMemphis, Crown Plaza Hotel.=0D<T=
D COLSPAN=3D1 HEIGHT=3D228>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD CO=
LSPAN=3D2>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D3 ROWSPAN=3D5 HEIGHT=3D88 WIDTH=3D210 VALIGN=
=3D"TOP">=0D<H1 ALIGN=3D"CENTER">=0D<B>Midwest Region</B>=0D</H1>=0D<P AL=
IGN=3D"JUSTIFY">In association with MMLA, Nov. 5&#173;7; =0DSt. Louis, Re=
gal Riverfront Hotel.=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY"><B><I>March 8</I></B> is the=
 deadline for 150-word =0Dabstracts to the meeting chair, Anna Fellegy, D=
ept. of English, 207 Lind Hall, Univ. of =0DMinnesota, 207 Church St. SE,=
 Minneapolis MN=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 HEIGHT=3D52>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=
=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 HEIGHT=3D6>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LE=
FT">=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D2>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D2 HEIGHT=3D1 W=
IDTH=3D210>=0D<HR>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 HEIGHT=3D1>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALI=
GN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D2>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D2 HEIG=
HT=3D24 WIDTH=3D210 VALIGN=3D"TOP">=0D<P =0DALIGN=3D"CENTER"><I>(Please t=
urn to Page 5 for the South =0DAtlantic and other calls for papers.)</I>=
=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 HEIGHT=3D24>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<T=
D COLSPAN=3D1 HEIGHT=3D5>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLS=
PAN=3D1 HEIGHT=3D5>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D=
1>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D2 HEIGHT=3D1 WIDTH=3D130>=0D<HR>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 HEI=
GHT=3D1>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1>=0D<TD CO=
LSPAN=3D3 HEIGHT=3D12 WIDTH=3D210 VALIGN=3D"TOP">=0D<P =0DALIGN=3D"JUSTIF=
Y"><B> / <I>NADS  </I>30.1January 1998</B>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 HEIGHT=3D12>=
=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 HEIGHT=3D11>=0D</=
TABLE>=0D<HR>=0D=0D<!-- Generation of PM publication page 3 -->=0D=0D<TAB=
LE BORDER=3D0 CELLSPACING=3D0 CELLPADDING=3D0 LANG=3Den DIR=3DLTR WIDTH=
=3D"504" COLS=3D"8">=0D<!-- Some browsers do not display table correctly.=
 -->=0D<!-- The following GIF images are here to work around the problem.=
 -->=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 WIDTH=3D36><I=
MG SRC=3D"./HtmlExp.gif" WIDTH=3D36 HEIGHT=3D1></TD>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 WI=
DTH=3D12><IMG SRC=3D"./HtmlExp.gif" WIDTH=3D12 HEIGHT=3D1></TD>=0D<TD COL=
SPAN=3D1 WIDTH=3D198><IMG SRC=3D"./HtmlExp.gif" WIDTH=3D198 HEIGHT=3D1></=
TD>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 WIDTH=3D12><IMG SRC=3D"./HtmlExp.gif" WIDTH=3D12 HE=
IGHT=3D1></TD>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 WIDTH=3D12><IMG SRC=3D"./HtmlExp.gif" WI=
DTH=3D12 HEIGHT=3D1></TD>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 WIDTH=3D80><IMG SRC=3D"./Html=
Exp.gif" WIDTH=3D80 HEIGHT=3D1></TD>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 WIDTH=3D130><IMG S=
RC=3D"./HtmlExp.gif" WIDTH=3D130 HEIGHT=3D1></TD>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 WIDTH=
=3D24><IMG SRC=3D"./HtmlExp.gif" WIDTH=3D24 HEIGHT=3D1></TD>=0D<TR VALIGN=
=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 HEIGHT=3D12>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"T=
OP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D2>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D5 HEIGHT=3D12 WIDT=
H=3D432 VALIGN=3D"TOP">=0D<P =0DALIGN=3D"RIGHT"><B>ADS  ANNUAL  MEETING</=
B>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D1 HEIGHT=3D12>=0D<TR VALIGN=3D"TOP" ALIGN=3D"LEFT">=0D=
<TD COLSPAN=3D1>=0D<TD COLSPAN=3D5 HEIGHT=3D225 WIDTH=3D432 VALIGN=3D"TOP=
">=0D<H1 ALIGN=3D"CENTER">=0D<B>Annual Meeting 1999 &#183; Los Angeles, J=
an. =0D7&#173;9</B>=0D</H1>=0D<P ALIGN=3D"JUSTIFY">ADS will meet with the=
 Linguistic Society of America in =0D<STRIKE></STR
======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (2/15/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 13 Feb 1998 to 14 Feb 1998             98-02-15 00:00:43
There are 4 messages totalling 235 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. canoodle and chum
  2. "nudeln", "knudeln", & "canoodle" (3)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 14 Feb 1998 11:38:07 -0500
From:    "Dennis R. Preston" <preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU>
Subject: Re: canoodle and chum

The Ca- (Ka-) 'augmentative' prefix (which may or may not be there in
'canoodle') is the subject of a paper by Fred Cassidy in AmerSpch, as I
recall (but my recaller is not in as good shape as it used to be).

dInIs



s>Hi!
>
>With "chum," I  know that I cannot help;  but with "canoodle," maybe.
>
>I suspect that "canoodle" may be derived from a GERMAN dialectical usage of
>the verb
>"nudeln," which means "to cuddle."   "Nudeln" can also mean, in dialect,
>"umarmen,"
>or "to embrace" or "to hug."
>
>As for the "ca" in "canoodle," I've not a clue, although it may just be a
>jumping-off, bounce, or
>pick-up syllable to add additional weight or emphasis to the "noo" syllable.
>But NOT as in   "NU? I can help you?",  since THAT "Nu" is Russian,
>although this Slavic "Nu" is prominent in Yiddish, as well.
>How did I get from Minsk to Pinsk with a "nu?"
>
>Shmuel
>
>
>
>>I'm looking into two etymologies: the slang "canoodle" (to kiss, hug,
>>fondle) as well as the fishing term "chum" (cut-up fish that is used as a
>>lure).  Sources so far have said origin "unknown" or "obscure."  Anyone have
>>any ideas?
>>Karen Lubell
>>Researcher
>>William Safire's "On Language"
>>The New York Times
>
>
>_______________________________
>DR. SAMUEL M. JONES
>Professor Emertitus
>Music & Latin American Studies
>University of Wisconsin-Madison
>"Pen-y-Bryn" - 122 Shepard Terrace
>Madison, WI  53705-3614  USA
>_______________________________
>EMAIL: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu
>_______________________________
>TELEPHONE: 608 + 233-2150
>_______________________________

Dennis R. Preston
Department of Linguistics and Languages
Michigan State University
East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu
Office: (517)353-0740
Fax: (517)432-2736

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 14 Feb 1998 18:07:46 -0600
From:    Samuel Jones <smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: "nudeln", "knudeln", & "canoodle"

To Dennis Preston & Karen Lubell -

Hi, again!

Further digging, in what remains of my gray matter, has revealed--but NOT
to be found in any
standard German dictionary!--that in slang, and in everday usage and
parlance, there exists a spoken-if-not-written verb "knudeln" which means
"to hug (closely/tightly), to cuddle,
to get very close to."   It is used frequently within familes, and often by
older folks & relatives,
with younger children or with special family members/loved ones.

 Example: "Kind, komm her. Lass Dich knudeln."
("Child, come here. Let [me] cuddle you [close]" or "Child, come here. Let
yourself be cuddled."

There is also in German --to be found in most standard German dictionaries,
along with "nudeln,"
--the verb "schmusen." This verb, as well, is often translated as "to
cuddle;"  however "schmusen"
is not getting quite so close to someone as is"knudeln," which often causes
the child to wiggle, squirm, and attempt to twist itself free from the
grasp of the apparently offensive adult.  "Schmusen" will be found in most
standard German dictionaries with the English translation  "to canoodle."
(see  Collins GermanDictionary,
1980, p. 579,  column 1).

Sorry it took me so long to determine and to realize that "ca-" is the
German "k" with which so many German words begin - Knabe (the English word
"knave"), Knecht (English "knight"), Knockwurst (always delicious with
Wisconsin beer!), Knie (English "knee") - und so weiter.  Ergo, the "ca-"
is, I guess, NOT an augmentative prefix, but simply the initial German "k"
given a life of its own by the addition in English of a full vowel sound
before the following syllable.  Nu, Mensch! Even a blind hand finds an
occasional acorn beneath an oak tree!

Thanks for the refernce to Fred's paper. I will see what I can find there.
But I am quite positive that what I have given here is authentic and can be
relied upon to be accurate.
 (If it isn't Welsh, it's ALWAYS bound to be simpler!)

Sam Ioanedd (aka Jones)

______________________________________________________


>The Ca- (Ka-) 'augmentative' prefix (which may or may not be there in
>'canoodle') is the subject of a paper by Fred Cassidy in AmerSpch, as I
>recall (but my recaller is not in as good shape as it used to be).
>
>dInIs
>
>
>
>s>Hi!
>>
>>With "chum," I  know that I cannot help;  but with "canoodle," maybe.
>>
>>I suspect that "canoodle" may be derived from a GERMAN dialectical usage of
>>the verb
>>"nudeln," which means "to cuddle."   "Nudeln" can also mean, in dialect,
>>"umarmen,"
>>or "to embrace" or "to hug."
>>
>>As for the "ca" in "canoodle," I've not a clue, although it may just be a
>>jumping-off, bounce, or
>>pick-up syllable to add additional weight or emphasis to the "noo" syllable.
>>But NOT as in   "NU? I can help you?",  since THAT "Nu" is Russian,
>>although this Slavic "Nu" is prominent in Yiddish, as well.
>>How did I get from Minsk to Pinsk with a "nu?"
>>
>>Shmuel
>>
>>
>>
>>>I'm looking into two etymologies: the slang "canoodle" (to kiss, hug,
>>>fondle) as well as the fishing term "chum" (cut-up fish that is used as a
>>>lure).  Sources so far have said origin "unknown" or "obscure."  Anyone have
>>>any ideas?
>>>Karen Lubell
>>>Researcher
>>>William Safire's "On Language"
>>>The New York Times
>>
>>
>>_______________________________
>>DR. SAMUEL M. JONES
>>Professor Emertitus
>>Music & Latin American Studies
>>University of Wisconsin-Madison
>>"Pen-y-Bryn" - 122 Shepard Terrace
>>Madison, WI  53705-3614  USA
>>_______________________________
>>EMAIL: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu
>>_______________________________
>>TELEPHONE: 608 + 233-2150
>>_______________________________
>
>Dennis R. Preston
>Department of Linguistics and Languages
>Michigan State University
>East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA
>preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu
>Office: (517)353-0740
>Fax: (517)432-2736


_______________________________
DR. SAMUEL M. JONES
Professor Emertitus
Music & Latin American Studies
University of Wisconsin-Madison
"Pen-y-Bryn" - 122 Shepard Terrace
Madison, WI  53705-3614  USA
_______________________________
EMAIL: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu
_______________________________
TELEPHONE: 608 + 233-2150
_______________________________

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 14 Feb 1998 16:24:04 -0800
From:    Keith Chambless <keith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUENEPTUNE.COM>
Subject: Re: "nudeln", "knudeln", & "canoodle"

Hello! Decided to post my first message on this list.

Sounds like there's a connection with the term "noodling", as in hugging a
squirming child, which my cousins in Oklahoma use to describe fishing by
hand. The fisherman wades along a river bank and reaches into holes in the
rock or clay. Supposedly, a trout nesting in one of those holes will bite
at the hand or fingers. The fisherman thens closes his hand around whatever
he can grasp and pull the fish to shore.

Keith
keith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]blueneptune.com - home
keith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]opentv.com - work

------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 14 Feb 1998 19:27:19 EST
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: "nudeln", "knudeln", & "canoodle"

     The RHHDAS has a first citation of 1859 ("conoodle") and has "origin
unknown."  RHHDAS also quotes the 1889 Barrere & Leland.  As stated before,
Charles Leland wrote the "Hans Breitmann" tales that created German dialect
comedy in America.  If "canoodle" is a German dialect word, then "Breitmann"
used it.  That's the place to look--simple as that.  In fact, he has a
glossary!
     Let's check the apartment--do I have "Breitmann" underneath this sofa?

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Feb 1998 to 14 Feb 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (2/14/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 12 Feb 1998 to 13 Feb 1998             98-02-14 00:00:09
This message contains more text than QuickMail can display. The entire message
 has been enclosed as a file.

There are 17 messages totalling 629 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Monkey is dead? (2)
  2. OIC; lead pipe cinch; frou-frou; shyster
  3. All-American; America; Nagano
  4. Hopefully
  5. cut (2)
  6. Palatal <k>
  7. Yellow dog Democrats (5)
  8. Help with data
  9. Nagano
 10. ADS-L Archive Search Overhaul
 11. canoodle and chum

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Feb 1998 21:08:21 -0800
From:    Devon Coles <dcoles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HORIZON.BC.CA>
Subject: Re: Monkey is dead?

Poor monkey! It rings a bell, but in a different form:
An old joke (circa the 1970s) in which the husband sends a note to the wife
(via their child) inviting her back to bed. In it he pens a bit of doggerel
on a circus theme. Her response is something along the lines of, "take down
your tent, put out the light, the monkey had a haemmorhage, there'll be no
show tonight!"


The deep structure of Knowledge is pure consciousness. I have a ways to go
yet. Devon

-----Original Message-----
From: Evan Morris <words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM>
To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU <ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU>
Date: Thursday, February 12, 1998 2:20 PM
Subject: Monkey is dead?


>words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com
>http://www.word-detective.com
>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Feb 1998 05:32:33 EST
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: OIC; lead pipe cinch; frou-frou; shyster

     A few etymologies before I call it a night and get two hours' sleep.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
OIC

    Oh, I see.  OIC.  This is used on the internet all the time, but it is not
new.
    The Pittsburgh Evening Telegraph, 22 March 1875, pg. 2, col. 2:

     His motto is "O I C."  Not only does he see it, but everybody else
does.--_Home Journal_.

     John Stockwell or 95 Ann Street, New York City, took out daily ads in the
New York newspapers in the 1870s for old newspapers, old pamphlets, and old
blank books and ledgers.  (NY Evening Telegram, 18 June 1874, pg. 3, col. 2 is
one such ad.)  The ads had "O (eye) C."
     Perhaps it started there.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
LEAD PIPE CINCH

     The latest RHHDAS doesn't have this.  It's from THE SPORTING NEWS, 27
September 1890, pg. 4, col. 5:

     A "lead pipe cinch" had its origin on an East river boat.  A fat man
jumped overboard.  A companion stood by and offered $1,000 to $10 that the fat
man would not bob up again to the surface.  He was immediately taken up by
several sports present and then the boat hove to, but no sign of the fat man
appeared on the surface.  He had gone hopelessly to the bottom.  The stranger,
after pocketing the stakes, said that the fat man a few minutes before had
informed him he was going to commit suicide and showed him 100 pounds of lead
pipe coiled about his stomach.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------
FROU-FROU

     OED has 4 June 1870.  This is from the Pittsburgh Evening Chronicle, 3
February 1870, pg. 4, col. 3:

     "FROU-FROU."
     The French frequently increase their vocabulary, and the last new word
has, it seems, been adopted as the title of a play just now meeting great
attention.  The correspondent of an English journal tells how the term
originated:  "Paris is just now running after _frou-frou_.  You may thumb the
dictionary in vain for the meaning of this word.  Look at this picture by
Maismonier: a man at arms rests his musket at a prison door.  Far in the back
ground a muffled woman furtively watches and stealthily but rapidly advances.
The soldier's quick ear has been caught by a sound.  It is not that noiseless
foot-fall, but the rustle--the _frou-frou_--of her silken dress.  By a
fanciful association the word has come to be applied to fast young ladies who
flash and rustle through their spring-time, and where passage, like that of a
meteor, is apt to be marked by a train of sparks."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------
SHYSTER

     I haven't checked the CHICAGO DEMOCRAT, but Library of Congress records
show it was published 1833-1846 by J. Calhoun, and 1846-1857 by John
Wentworth.  As per the previous posting, the 1846-1857 CHICAGO DEMOCRAT by
John Wentworth must be checked, and this is too late for the origin of
"shyster"--which we have from 1843.
     Nevertheless, if we have a "shyster" in the 1840s, and we have a
"shyster" case of slander from the 1870s, both must be investigated.  You
never know.
     For now, though, Gerald Cohen's dinner is safe.  But hold that pasta!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Feb 1998 05:33:05 EST
From:    "Barry A. Popik" <Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: All-American; America; Nagano

ALL-AMERICAN

     Yes, as previously noted, it's in the DA:  "1888 _Outing_ Nov. 166/2 The
All-American team...is composed of men picked from the ranks of the
representative ball teams of America."
     This is a classic example of quoting too little.  Yes, the College
Football Hall of Fame was correct that the first college football All-
Americans were chosen in 1889.  You'd never know it from the quote, but it's
about a BASEBALL All-American team!
      And of course, we can antedate the earliest citation.  This is from
SPORTING LIFE, 24 October 1888, pg. 5, col. 2:

THE GREAT TRIP.  ("SPALDING'S AUSTRALIAN BASE BALL TOUR"--ed.)
(...)
   CHICAGO, Oct. 17.--Editor SPORTING LIFE:--Ere these lines meet the eyes of
THE SPORTING LIFE'S readers the members of the Chicago and All-American teams
will have departed upon their great trip to Australia and the greatest base
ball invasion upon record thus inaugurated.
(...)  Van Haliren will play short for the All-Americas.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
AMERICA

     The "Columbus Day" posting that was recently reposted was part of a
larger series of postings I made last year about the naming of America and
Americans--on the 500th anniversary of John Cabot's voyage to North America.
     The February 1964 AMERICAN SPEECH article "On the Naming of America" is
incredibly awful and reaches the wrong conclusion.
     Cecil Adams's THE STRAIGHT DOPE for September 28-October 4, 1994 (check
archives on his web site) states the general problem that we really should be
living in "Vespucciland."  He states:

     There are a couple of theories on the name's origin.  One is that it's a
variant of Enrico, the Italian form of Henry, and derives from the Old German
Haimrich (in later German Emmerich, in English Americus), from _haimi_ (home)
plus _ric_ (power, ruler).  Alternatively, it may come from the Old German
Amalricus, from _amal_ (work) plus _ric_.

     This theory--not considered in the AMERICAN SPEECH article--was
extensively discussed in the very first article in NAMES (a journal of the
American Name Society).  I believe it has a lot going for it.  What made the
New York Post's Columbus Day article so putrid is that it stated that the
people involved were FRENCH.  They were German.  Big difference!  Not only
were their names German--as any idiot could see--but the point is that it
possibly affected their work, which is the naming of "America."
     Charles Godfrey Leland ("Hans Breitmann") wrote this in HANS BREITMANN'S
BALLADS (1869), pg. 96:

So also de name America,
   If ve a liddle look,
Vas coom from de oldt King Emerich
   In de Deutsche _Heldenbuch_.

     Was "America"--in addition to honoring Vespucci--a German joke?
     Now I got these maps here, and these biographies here, and they're all
over this tiny apartment, and it's gonna take some explainin'...

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------
NAGANO

     I saw a story today on CNN Headline News.  The Japanese Embassy is being
flooded with calls about how to pronounce "Nagano."
     It makes me real angry.
     When I proposed AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH ONLINE, I suggested that it be a
joint effort with the American Name Society.  One of the ideas I had is a
pronunciation guide to names in the news.
     A few years ago, everyone was asking about "Herzegovina."  Last year,
someone in New York sports television asked about a new New York Yankees
player from Japan, "Hideki Ir-AH-bu, IR-ah-bu, which is it?"
     This is not the stuff of AMERICAN SPEECH or NAMES, but it is stuff that
people need to know, and need to know immediately.  An online magazine of the
ADS and ANS would be the authority to turn to first.
     We'd be quoted on this, and we'd attract new members, perhaps.
     Oh well!

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Feb 1998 07:42:42 -0500
From:    Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Hopefully

I am writing an article on the emergence of _hopefully_ as a sentence
adverb.  If anyone knows of any pre-1963 citations for this usage, I would
be most grateful to hear of them.  (I already have the citations from the
OED, Webster's Dictionary of English Usage, and the Barnhart files.)


----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
 Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
 Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Feb 1998 08:27:35 -0500
From:    frank abate <abatef[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: cut

Alan

RE cut:

I'd call this "phys ed slang".  This may explain its absence from dicts,
even big ones.  Don't know its age, but probably fairly new.  Not at all
restricted, that is, not AAVE of anything of the sort.  It is a term used=

in weight rooms and such.

Also re application: It refers to well-defined, highly toned muscles in a=
ny
part of the body.  The ref is to the "seams" between different bands of
muscle when well-defined, as in "washboard abs".  But it can be used of l=
eg
muscles, back, etc.

This is off-the-top-of-the-head, but my info is via my wife, who has done=

some power lifting.

Frank

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Feb 1998 09:49:47 -0500
From:    Alan Baragona <baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU>
Subject: Palatal <k>

x-posted to HEL-L and ADS-L

Another question for you real phoneticians out there.  Is there any
character in the IPA that would represent what Pyles and Algeo call the
Indo-European *palatal k?  I don't want to use /k/, because it might confuse
my students.  The IPA chart on the end papers of Pyles/Algeo has /c/ as a
palatal plosive--is that the same as the IE sound?  Close enough?  Would /c/
represent the sound of the first <k> in <kick>, or is it something different
altogether?

Alan Baragona
baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vax.vmi.edu

You know, years ago,  my mother used to say to me, she'd say, "In this
world, Elwood, you must be . . ."--she always called me 'Elwood'--"In this
world, Elwood, you must be oh, so smart or oh, so pleasant."  Well, for
years I was smart.  I recommend pleasant.  And you may quote me.

                                Elwood P. Dowd

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Feb 1998 10:00:31 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: cut

At 8:27 AM -0500 2/13/98, frank abate wrote:
>RE cut:
>
>I'd call this "phys ed slang".  This may explain its absence from dicts,
>even big ones.  Don't know its age, but probably fairly new.  Not at all
>restricted, that is, not AAVE of anything of the sort.  It is a term used
>in weight rooms and such.
>
>Also re application: It refers to well-defined, highly toned muscles in any
>part of the body.
>...

Note the potentially pernicious ambiguity (or at least confusion) if the
term is used in the personals, where (UN)CUT is a technical designation for
'(un)circumcised'.  Presumably the context will disambiguate, as usual.



Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:07:12 -0500
From:    jerry miller <millerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRANKLINCOLL.EDU>
Subject: Yellow dog Democrats

This may have been discussed previously here, but either I missed it or
wasn't on the list yet. Can anyone tell me (& a colleague in the political
science dept.) the origin and meaning of the term "yellow dog Democrat"?
     I know a little about "yellow dog contracts" -- as basically being
anti-union documents, but I'm not clear on how that got connected to
Democrats (who, generally, have been pro-union).

Jerry Miller

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Feb 1998 12:43:18 -0500
From:    Gregory {Greg} Downing <downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Yellow dog Democrats

At 12:07 PM 2/13/98 -0500, you wrote:
>This may have been discussed previously here, but either I missed it or
>wasn't on the list yet. Can anyone tell me (& a colleague in the political
>science dept.) the origin and meaning of the term "yellow dog Democrat"?
>     I know a little about "yellow dog contracts" -- as basically being
>anti-union documents, but I'm not clear on how that got connected to
>Democrats (who, generally, have been pro-union).
>
>Jerry Miller
>

OED2 "yellow dog" attests (meaning 2a) "person or thing of no account or of
a low type," first cite 1881. The union sense of anti-union and therefore
no-good is similar to the use of a lot of more general negative terms by
pro-union folks in more narrow application to non- or anti-union people or
things, cf. scab. On the union sense of yellow dog = anti-union, see meaning
2b, first cite 1894.

"Yellow dog democrat" I have no cites handy on, but some time in the 80s I
read something that asserted it came from the idea of someone (especially in
the South, when the South was pretty overwhelmingly Democrat, i.e., 1860s to
1940s) who was so strictly a Democrat voter that s/he'd vote Democrat if the
party ran a yellow dog for office. I.e., a very loyal and/or very partisan
Democrat, esp. in the South.

So, yellow dog = anti-union, and yellow dog Democrat = extremely loyal
Democrat both grow out of "yellow dog" = something no good. They are
collateral descendants of the same phrase, not parent-and-child to each
other, which is what you are wondering about above.

I'm sure someone out there has early cites for yellow-dog Democrat. I'd
imagine they would be from the late 19th cent or first half of 20th cent.

Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Feb 1998 13:03:43 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Yellow dog Democrats

At 12:43 PM -0500 2/13/98, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote:
>
>"Yellow dog democrat" I have no cites handy on, but some time in the 80s I
>read something that asserted it came from the idea of someone (especially in
>the South, when the South was pretty overwhelmingly Democrat, i.e., 1860s to
>1940s) who was so strictly a Democrat voter that s/he'd vote Democrat if the
>party ran a yellow dog for office. I.e., a very loyal and/or very partisan
>Democrat, esp. in the South.
>
That's the sense I'm familiar with--someone who would vote for EVEN a
yellow dog that ran on the Democratic ticket.  Them was the days.  Then
there are the boll-weevils.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:30:07 +0100
From:    Jan Strunk <Strunk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]T-ONLINE.DE>
Subject: Re: Monkey is dead?

>From the New York Times, article on the going out of business of  Power
> Computing Co:  "Kahn (the chairman) could not be reached. A security guard
> said, "The show is over. The monkey is dead, and they've folded the tent."  I
> love this phrase. If the show is merely over, they could have another show
> tomorrow. But if the monkey is dead, it's really over. Question: Did this
> security guard coin this phrase, or is this an old one I just never
> happened to
> hear before?

In German, they say "Klappe zu, Affe tot" (flap/trap closed, monkey dead),
if something is finally over. I don't know where this saying might come
from, though.

Jan Strunk
strunk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]t-online.de

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:05:39 EST
From:    Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: Yellow dog Democrats

We all know about the constant value of DARE (for example, in regard to our
recent discussion, see "hissy"), but here's an opportunity to mention another
resource by a fellow ADS member, namely Safire's New Political Dictionary
(Random House, 1993) by William Safire.

It does not obviate the need for OED, DA, DAE, DARE, etc, but see

yellow dog Democrat: an unswerving party loyalist; used only as a compliment.
(Safire then goes on to explain how the negative term "yellow dog" became
positive in terms of the 1928 Presidential election.)

- Allan Metcalf

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Feb 1998 15:18:16 +0000
From:    Buchmann <buchmann[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BELLSOUTH.NET>
Subject: Re: Yellow dog Democrats

There are [as usual] many
stories about the origin
of this phrase, but the
meaning is clear - a
Democrat who would not
vote other than Democratic;
ie., a 'straight ticket' or
'party line' voter. The reference
is to the most common variety of
mixed-breed dog in the Deep South
 - a sandy colored mutt. The
usage inplies the the YDD would
vote for a yellow dog as long as
it ran on the Democratic ticket.
Far from a term of derision it
was/is mostly used as a term of proud
self identification. "I'm a yellow
dog Democrat."

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Feb 1998 20:30:52 +0000
From:    Aaron Drews <aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.ED.AC.UK>
Subject: Help with data

Hello,

        I recently received this from a friend of mine in Germany.  I was
wondering if any of you knew of any research on the topic, or of any other
possible existing data.  And to anticipate any potential complaints, she
has gone through the resources available to her in Germany and hasn't had
the best of luck.
        You can reply to Ms. Boes personally at
<birte.boes[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]stud.uni-rostock.de> or to me, here.
        Any help would be greatly appreciated.
                Aaron Drews

>>>>>>>>>>begin forwarded message>>>>>>>>>

 I want to write about service
encounters, especially about salestalks and service encounters in
restaurants. As far as I know, there has not been established an
appropriate corpus yet. My questions are: Do you know of any data
collections which are not yet known to me? And - do you (as a
research profi) see any possibilities of collecting some data myself,
i.e. do some recordings in shops etc. My advisor told me that it
would be rather difficult, for salespersons normally don't want to
have any "witnesses". One of my collegues suggested to go through
some (BBC?-) documentaries to see if there are any buying-selling scenes etc.
I still think about that possibilities, especially because video-data
would, of course, be an excellent base for my analysis. Do you have
an ultimate idea?
<<<<<<<<<<end forwarded message<<<<<<<<<<

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 13 Feb 1998 18:42:55 -0500
From:    frank abate <abatef[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM>
Subject: Re: Nagano

Dear Kusujiro Miyoshi

Thank you very much for your reply to the Nagano question.  It seems to m=
e
that your answer clarifies the matter very well.

I now conjecture that the written pronunciation of the name "Nagano" was
Anglicized (according to normal English stress-pattern rules) in older
English dictionaries, with stress on the 2nd syllable, and that 
======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (2/13/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 11 Feb 1998 to 12 Feb 1998             98-02-13 00:00:14
There are 13 messages totalling 339 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Japan(ese) (2)
  2. [ha:di]
  3. HELP! Truncation continuing!
  4. canoodle and chum
  5. Call for papers
  6. cut (2)
  7. "hissy fit"
  8. Monkey is dead?
  9. Call for papers, ANS-MLA
 10. Nagano
 11. cut verb & modifier

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:25:09 -0600
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japan(ese)

Larry Horn wrote:

        <snip, to save bandwidth>

> Maybe someone figured
> if it's OK to have "Colorado Rockies", it's OK to have "Japan Alps".  But
> at least the former has an esthetically pleasing trochaic rhythm, while the
> latter just sounds (if you'll excuse the technical vocabulary) silly.
>
> Larry

     Silly or no, those mountains were called "the Japan Alps" in
English-language publications in 1952/53 when I was there.  They are so
cited in an edition of __Japan: The Official Guide__ of that era. I
still have it around the house somewhere.  (I was there courtesy of
Uncle Sam and the Korean War.)

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Feb 1998 00:50:25 EST
From:    David Carlson <Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Re: [ha:di]

I was a little surprised when I read Ellen Johnson's note about the symbol AE
for the monophthong of [ai], and I was even more suprised when Danny Long used
it.  But then, I'm unfamiliar with the term <flattening> used to describe the
process.  I must be out of touch.

Nevertheless, the vowel in question here is, as has already been pointed out,
the small printed "a", a vowel completely familiar to me as a native of
Eastern New England. (Norwood MA to be specific, some 14 miles south and a
little west of Fenway Park.)  I have it in <half>, <laugh>, <path>, as well as
in <cart>, <barn>, and the like.  The vertical centered dot to the right of it
indicates  a compensatory lengthening   for the lack of postvocalic /r/.  It
is included in all of the vowel charts I have handy from PEAS,  the New
England and LAMSAS Handbooks and LAUM, and I would describe it as a lower low
front unrounded vowel.   There is not much discussion of it in any of these
sources: Harold Allen says that it is found in <cart> and <barn> in eastern
New England. Incidentally, I also have the [a] vowel in <father>, but not in
<pot> and <bother>.

When I was at McDavid's NEH seminar in 1977 Mike Dressman told me that [au]
diphthongs were monophthongized as well as the [ai] diphthong, resulting in
[a:]. I'm still not comfortable with flattening.

In the early 1970s my brother and his wife moved from Norwood MA to Kingsport
TN.
They were suprised to heard the local cheerleaders and the crowd encouraging
the local football team to [fa:t], [fa:t], [fa:t].

I've been waiting for Don Lance to straighten us all out on this.

David R. Carlson
34 Spaulding St.
Amhert MA 01002

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Feb 1998 10:18:48 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: HELP! Truncation continuing!

The truncation problem I wrote about yesterday is back with a vengeance. Today's
 Digest ends for me within message
1.

I strongly suspect the LeBrechts ;-)\ . Both truncations occurred at the same
 point in Mike Salovesh's message, and I'm
sure there's something in it that is triggering a cutoff somewhere, possibly in
 my company's firewall. A similar problem
with the LINGUIST List a year or so ago turned out to be located there. Would
 someone please send me the Digests for
Feb. 9-10 and Feb. 10-11 AT THE FOLLOWING EDRESS:

        mam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]world.std.com

That personal account is outside the firewall, and hopefully I will be able to
 see the cause of the problem and take it to
the appropriate intranetmeister.

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:34:23 -0500
From:    Karen Lubell <lubell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NYTIMES.COM>
Subject: canoodle and chum

I'm looking into two etymologies: the slang "canoodle" (to kiss, hug,
fondle) as well as the fishing term "chum" (cut-up fish that is used as a
lure).  Sources so far have said origin "unknown" or "obscure."  Anyone have
any ideas?
Karen Lubell
Researcher
William Safire's "On Language"
The New York Times

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Feb 1998 12:01:19 -0600
From:    Anna M Fellegy <felle001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU>
Subject: Call for papers

CALL FOR PAPERS

Midwest Regional Meeting
of the American Dialect Society

in association with MMLA

November 5 - 7, 1998

Regal Riverfront Hotel
St. Louis, Missouri

Colleagues are invited to submit abstracts for the annual Midwest Regional
Meeting of the American Dialect Society, to be held this year in St.
Louis, Missouri, November 5 - 7. The session theme is open, and abstracts
from faculty and students are welcome. (Topics with a regional flavor
include, among many others, perspectives on German-American speech
communities, AAVE, and the life of language along the Mississippi.)

The Society's meeting is held in association with the annual meeting of
Midwest Modern Language Association (MMLA), which offers a full slate of
sessions on topics in literature and, on a more limited basis, topics in
linguistics. The conference will be held at the Regal Riverfront Hotel, a
setting that offers participants, at day's end, the opportunity to enjoy
the laziness of an autumn Mississippi--riverboats, restaurants, park
benches, and fall colors.

Submit a 150-word abstract by March 8, 1998, to:

Anna Fellegy
Department of English
207 Lind Hall
207 Church Street SE
University of Minnesota
Minneapolis, MN 55455-0134

E-mail submissions to: felle001[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu

Notice of acceptance will be mailed by March 20, 1998

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:15:02 -0500
From:    Alan Baragona <baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU>
Subject: cut

Two of my colleagues just asked me about the slang adjective "cut" meaning
"having sharply defined chest muscles" or washboard abdominals.  Apparently
very common among weight lifters and physical culture types, not
particularly African-American, though that's how it came up originally.
This meaning does not make it into RHHDAS, which was surprising.  Neither is
it in DARE.  Just for the hell of it I tried OED2 and, not surprisingly came
up blank.  Anybody know anything about the history of this term?

Thanks.

Alan B.

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:38:20 EST
From:    simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Subject: Re: cut

It's common as a noun.

Any defined muscle area.

beth
simon

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Feb 1998 15:47:59 -0600
From:    Christopher Church <christopher.church[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BMHCC.ORG>
Subject: "hissy fit"

Does anyone out there know the derivation of the familiar Southernism
"hissy fit"?  Could it have derived from "hussy"?  Many of our faculty
are familiar with "hissy fits," but no one here knows the origin of the
term.
********************************************************************************
******************
The opinions expressed above are not necessarily those of Baptist
Memorial Health Care Corporation
Christopher Church, Asst. Professor of Philosophy and Religion,
Baptist Memorial College of Health Sciences
OfficePhone: (901)227-4473 FaxNumber:
E-MailAddress: christopher.church[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bmhcc.org
********************************************************************************
******************

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Feb 1998 17:08:58 -0500
From:    Evan Morris <words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM>
Subject: Monkey is dead?

>From a reader of my newspaper column:

>From the New York Times, article on the going out of business of  Power
Computing Co:  "Kahn (the chairman) could not be reached. A security guard
said, "The show is over. The monkey is dead, and they've folded the tent."  I
love this phrase. If the show is merely over, they could have another show
tomorrow. But if the monkey is dead, it's really over. Question: Did this
security guard coin this phrase, or is this an old one I just never
happened to
hear before?

----------------------------

Does this ring a bell for anyone?  All I've been able to find is that the
phrase occurs in a Marilyn Manson (yuck) lyric.

--
Evan Morris
words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com
http://www.word-detective.com

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Feb 1998 16:39:48 -0800
From:    Grant Smith <gsmith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EWU.EDU>
Subject: Call for papers, ANS-MLA

ADS members considering the MLA panel might like to consider presenting at
ANS as well.

Grant Smith, Vice President, ANS

Call for papers
1998 Annual Meeting
AMERICAN NAME SOCIETY conjointly with the MODERN LANGUAGE ASSOCIATION
San Francisco, Dec. 27-30, 1998

Two MLA sessions, plus 10 to 12 concurrent sessions.  Themes will focus on
names in literature, literary theory, philosophy, linguistics, geography,
social or historical usage.  Literary panels may focus on single authors.
Short abstracts (150 word max.) to Grant W. Smith, gsmith[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ewu.edu.

Deadline for MLA sessions is March 2.  Deadline for concurrent ANS sessions
is Sept. 1, 1998.

Abstracts of all papers presented will be printed in "Proceedings."

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:35:46 -0500
From:    Kusujiro Miyoshi <kw900325[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S.SOKA.AC.JP>
Subject: Re: Japan(ese)

It seems queer that no Japanese comments on this problem.  As a native
Japanese speaker, I think "Japan Alps" is a literal translation of
"Nihon Alps "(or, we also say "Nippon Alps").  This is, needless to
say, a proper noun, and fixed accordingly.  For the adjective of
"Nihon" or "Nippon," we usually say "Nihon-teki" or "Nippon-teki."
The original Japanese word discussed now is a proper noun and not
"Nihon-teki (or, Nippon-teki) Alps."  So, it seems natural for me
to call it "Japan Alps."  Of course, in the case of "Nihon cha,"
which is Japanese tea, and the like, it is translated in that way;
because it is not a proper noun.

Kusujiro Miyoshi
Soka Women's College,
Tokyo, Japan.
kw900325[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s.soka.ac.jp

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:46:05 -0500
From:    Kusujiro Miyoshi <kw900325[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]S.SOKA.AC.JP>
Subject: Re: Nagano

  I'm a Japanese, and have lived in Okayama for eighteen years, ten
years in Osaka, and eight years in Tokyo.  Additionally, I have visited
Northern part of Japan several times.  I, however, have never heard
the stress of the word put on the second syllable: it is always put
on the first.  When speaking English, it is usually my custom to put
the stress on the second syllable, because it seems to be easy for the
English speaking people to hear the word.
  I hope this information might be of some help for the list.

Kusujiro Miyoshi,
Soka Women's College, Tokyo, Japan.
kw900325[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s.soka.ac.jp

------------------------------

Date:    Thu, 12 Feb 1998 20:54:41 EST
From:    simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU
Subject: cut verb & modifier

In email exchange about professional aerobic/strength trainers, those
such as Cathe' Friedrichs and Karen Voight, who make videos, the
following occurred:

        The way they cut themselves up before a vid is that they
        reduce their water/fluid/salt intake, and use supplements
        to get that ripped/cut look.

        Cathe's got real definition, great cuts.

beth simon
assistant professor, linguistics and english
indiana university purdue university
simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Feb 1998 to 12 Feb 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (2/12/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 10 Feb 1998 to 11 Feb 1998             98-02-12 00:00:42
There are 14 messages totalling 369 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Resend Re: Origins of "shyster"
  2. Sorry !
  3. Japan(ese) (4)
  4. Nagano
  5. truncated Digest
  6. Clipping Services
  7. "Nagano"
  8. theme for ADSn 1999
  9. Nagano: its pron
 10. Norman French influence
 11. word choice

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Feb 1998 03:07:31 -0600
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Resend Re: Origins of "shyster"

Ooops!  Sorry, folks.  I sent this message from an unfamiliar computer
on campus.
Line spacing and paragraphing got messed up because I didn't understand
its
Internet editor.  Here's a clearer version of the same text:

Orin Hargraves wrote:

> A small footnote to Barry Popik's fascinating discovery on the origins of
> shyster: he queries the probability of there being a German policeman in
> Chicago. At the turn of the century (and for some time before) Germans made
> up more than 25% of Chicago's population; they were more numerous than the
> next 3 identifiable immigrant groups combined. A lot of advertising from
> the time was printed in both English and German. See "Chicago: Growth of a
> Metropolis" (Mayer, U of Chicago Press) for a lot fuller background.

And as a footnote to Orin's footnote, both bilingual German/English
classes
and classes (even whole schools) taught exclusively in German were
common in
Chicago public schools a century ago.  Non-English classes covered the
entire
curriculum, not just language instruction.  Some Chicago schools offered
bilingual and/or monolingual education in other languages (notably
Polish
and Yiddish), too.  So much for the "innovation" of Ebonics in Oakland
classrooms!

Bilingual public school classes ended as a side effect of  World War I,
when
it was regarded as patriotic to "de-Germanize" American English.
"Hamburgers"
became "victory burgers" during the war, while wieners metamorphosed
into the
classic Chicago hot dog forever.  Names also were changed to cut alleged
ties
to the Kaiser, as Schmidts became Smiths in droves.  Some of my wife's
relatives with the suspiciously Germanic name of Lebrecht frenchified
the
spelling to LeBrecht in order to go with the patriotic flow.
.
Given the  large population of German descent in Chicago, it probably
would
have been impossible to single out German bilingual ed for termination,
but
the anti-German trend was irresistable.  The Chicago political solution
was
to close bilingual classes in K-12 across the board.  (Ouch.  What a
waste!)

Chicago's community colleges (then called "Junior Colleges") were under
the
same Board of Education as the K-12 schools.  They continued to offer
non-language courses in languages other than English for years after
bilingual
ed was removed at K-12 levels.

Sorry I can't back this up with documentary citation: it comes out of
family
lore.  Some of my uncles and aunts, as well as some of my wife's
relatives,
actually went to Chicago public schools where the languages of
instruction
were, variously, German, Yiddish, and Polish.  (My functional
mother-in-law
was born in Chicago; she spoke only Polish at home and in school until
she
reached high school.  I don't know whether she was in public school or
parochial school.)  My youngest uncle attended a Chicago community
college
just before World War II, and he told me about non-language courses
taught
there in languages other than English.  (That was part of his favoring
me
with an oral history of Wilbur Wright Community College, which he
attended,
when I got my first full-time college teaching job. The job was at
Wright.)

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology  department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Feb 1998 03:35:00 -0600
From:    Mike Salovesh <t20mxs1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CORN.CSO.NIU.EDU>
Subject: Sorry !

Some days you just can't win.  Forget the message and forgive my
goofs, please!

--  mike salovesh                               <salovesh[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu.edu>
    anthropology department
    northern illinois university                     PEACE !!!

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:23:02 -0600
From:    Joan Houston Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japan(ese)

There's an interesting article on the use of place names in the form
attributive noun + noun (Japan alps) rather than derivative adj + noun
(Japanese Alps) in the 1986 issue of _Dictionaries_.  It's by James E.
Iannucci, and is titled "Ghost Adjectives in Dictionaries."

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:36:41 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: Nagano

But Japanese has a pitch accent (very variable between dialects), which
 Eng.-speakers might hear as stress accent.
How would that figure in?

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:40:46 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: truncated Digest

Today's Digest, "ADS-L Digest - 9 Feb 1998 to 10 Feb 1998", arrived shorn of its
 tail, ending as follows:

=====

Chicago hot dog forever.  Names also were changed to cut alleged ties to the
Kaiser,
as Schmidts became Smiths in droves.  Some of my wife's relatives with the
suspiciously
Germanic name of Lebrecht frenchified the spelling to LeBrecht in order to go
with the
patriotic flow.

=====

Normally there's a trailer, like this one from yesterday's Digest:

        ------------------------------

        End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Feb 1998 to 9 Feb 1998
        **********************************************

Did I miss anything of substance? Did anyone else observe such a truncation?

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:07:33 -0500
From:    Grant Barrett <gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM>
Subject: Clipping Services

A clipping service that I have taken to using is Inquisit. It searches about 600
 publications and newswires and emails you the clippings it finds, all for a
 flat feet. There is a two-week trial period, and after that it's 12.95 a month,
 a very reasonable cost, considering that most of the clipping services I looked
 into charge a per-article fee.

I prefer to have the articles arrive in my email box, because then I can apply a
 sort/file maneuver to them and they are easily forwarded to other interested
 parties. Newstracker requires just a little more effort than I have time for.

Grant Barrett
gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]jerrynet.com

--------------------------------------
Date: 2/10/98 6:15 PM
To: Grant Barrett
From: Dennis Baron
The Hindu runs these columns regularly. I download them with my newstracker web
 browser, which is set to track all news items involving language, English, and
 related keywords. I recommend the service to all ADSers... it's free. The
 website for newstracker is:
http://nt.excite.com/
it gives you the latest news and a service for setting up a tracker for any
 topic you want. it was great during the ebonics controversy last year...I got
 all the stuff from the california papers, etc.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Feb 1998 10:56:23 -0500
From:    "Jeutonne P. Brewer" <jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japan(ese)

> Does this mean that are places in the US that say Japanese with an "s"
> rather than a "z"?
>
> Danny Long
>
> Jeutonne P. Brewer wrote:
> > Japanese is one of those words in which you can the the "greasy"/"greazy"
> > distinction. Using Japan as the adjectival form would be a way of
> > avoiding the dialectal distinction. Just a thought.

Sorry my message wasn't clear; I shouldn't write late in the evening.

Yes, I'm (trying to) state that "Japanese" and "Japaneze" pronciations
occur. It reminds me of the same kind of thing that happened with
the word Vietnamese in the 60s and 70s.

Jeutonne Brewer

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:09:55 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: "Nagano"

My co-worker who is a native Japanese speaker pronounces it with higher pitch on
 the first syllable than on the other
two, which sounds in English like stress on the first.

       Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com
    Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200
 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/
           Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Feb 1998 11:39:21 -0600
From:    "Salikoko S. Mufwene" <s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UCHICAGO.EDU>
Subject: Re: theme for ADSn 1999

Ron:

    I like the proposed theme for some of the ADS sessions in Los Angeles:
"Dialect in Literature". It will also be nice to have other sessions on
"dialect performance/mimicry".

Sali.

*******************************************************
Salikoko S. Mufwene                        s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu
University of Chicago                      773-702-8531; FAX 773-834-0924
Department of Linguistics
1010 East 59th Street
Chicago, IL 60637
http://humanities.uchicago.edu/humanities/linguistics/faculty/mufwene.html
*******************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Feb 1998 13:04:37 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japan(ese)

At 7:04 PM -0600 2/10/98, Matthew Gordon wrote:
>Watching the coverage of the Olympics I have been struck by an
>adjectival use of "Japan" where "Japanese" seemed more natural to me;
>e.g. "The Japan Alps" "these Japan Olympics" etc.  I noticed this usage
>by several of the CBS folks and I heard an NPR reporter use it as well
>(specifically "The Japan Alps").  Any thoughts about what, if anything,
>is going on?  Could they be avoiding "Japanese" for some reason? Has
>that term acquired some connotations they wish to avoid?

I think there's a semantic difference between the two cases.  "These
Japanese Olympics" might be avoided because that phrase might suggest
possession or ownership; the Olympics AREN'T Japanese, they are just held
there.  The nominal compound is thus motivated.  On the other hand, "the
Japan Alps" does strike me as odd (although it's evidently part of a
language change in progress, which I take it is what that "Dictionaries"
article details); the mountains in question really are Japanese in the
sense that the Swiss (*Switzerland) Alps are Swiss.  Maybe someone figured
if it's OK to have "Colorado Rockies", it's OK to have "Japan Alps".  But
at least the former has an esthetically pleasing trochaic rhythm, while the
latter just sounds (if you'll excuse the technical vocabulary) silly.


Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:54:34 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Nagano: its pron

    Thanks for the info on pitch, Danny; this seems to corroborate Mark
    Mandel's first syllable/higher pitch citation too.  My NS colleague
    started to explain pitch to me but couldn't speak technically about it,
    or the dialect variation upon it, in English.

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Feb 1998 15:43:57 -0500
From:    Beverly Flanigan <FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU>
Subject: Re: Japan(ese)

    On Jeutonne's comment:  I wouldn't think "Japanes/ze" and
    "Vietnames/ze" variation would lead to stigmatizing of one or the
    other, in the way that [grizi] is marked in the North.  Cf.
    "Syracus/ze," neither form of which has negative connotations, to my
    knowledge--right, New Yorkers?

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Feb 1998 16:17:18 EST
From:    Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Norman French influence

Just got this inquiry. If you are able to reply, please be sure to send a
message directly to her, since she's not on ADS-L.
--------------------------------------
I am a student at Tennessee Technological University and I need to find

sources pertaining to the Norman French Influence on English Grammar.  If

you could give me any information it would be greatly appreciated!

Thank You for your time,

Stephanie Long

long[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tnaccess.com

------------------------------

Date:    Wed, 11 Feb 1998 22:45:55 -0500
From:    "W. Randolph Beckford" <beckford[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU>
Subject: word choice

If anyone would like to answer the following question for me, I would
appreciate it.  If not, please ignore or direct me to the proper forum.

I am a student tutoring ESL to a visiting Russian professor at my college.
Frequently confusing the senses of "say," "tell," and "speak" (because she
says that Russian has one word for all three), I tried to explain the
difference myself.  However, although I could show her example sentences,
even my own logic told me that, like Russian, these verbs ought to be
synonyms in English, theoretically.  For example, "The teacher says to
read chapter 6;"  but NOT "The teacher speaks (tells) to read chapter 6."
I realize that this probably has to do with a transitive/intransitive
difference, but could someone explain it clearly in this instance?

Although I may just be experiencing a "mind fart," thank you very much!

Randy Beckford
Writing Center Consultant
Dickinson College
Carlisle, PA

*****************

Si futurum est, fiet.

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Feb 1998 to 11 Feb 1998
************************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (2/10/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 7 Feb 1998 to 9 Feb 1998               98-02-10 00:01:43
There are 8 messages totalling 286 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Fred Cassidy
  2. seeking info on AAVE
  3. Automatic translation (3)
  4. "the skinny"
  5. Automatic Dialect translation
  6. borras for "tidal wave"

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Feb 1998 10:14:36 -0600
From:    Joan Houston Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Fred Cassidy

I'm delighted to be able to say that Fred is now out of the hospital and
back at the retirement center.  His address, at least until the end of
February, is

Scottsdale Royale #52
3620 N. Miller Road
Scottsdale, AZ 85251

He is walking well, can swallow, and sounds ALMOST like the Fred we know and
love!

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Feb 1998 11:55:45 -0500
From:    Mark Mandel <Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM>
Subject: seeking info on AAVE

           The following appeared in LINGUIST List #9.183
                    Please do NOT reply to me.
(I have already referred the inquirer to Harold Schiffman's on-Web
bibliography of the issue.)
           --------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 07 Feb 1998 03:07:41 -0500
From: michael s hughes <michaelaking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]earthlink.net>
Subject: Ebonics

    I am a student at Howard University pursuring a degree in
Educational Psychology.  Presently I am doing research on African
American Vernacular English "Ebonics" (a term that I really like by
the way).  I am becoming more and more intriqued by it as I explore
it.  If there is any information that you feel may be helpful to my
pursuits and if you have the time please contact me.

    Thank you for your consideration of this matter.

Sincerely,
Michael S. Hughes
MichaelaKing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Earthlink.net

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:08:46 EST
From:    Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Automatic translation

This was posted recently on the discussion list for administrators of ACLS
societies. (Yes, there's a list for everything!) It's news to me . . . and
maybe news to some others on ADS-L. - Allan Metcalf

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
I have recently
learned of an interesting website developed by Digital that offers instant
translations between English and German, French, Italian, Portuguese, and
Spanish. By putting a link on your homepage to that site, users can have
your pages and all hyperlinks in your site translated into one of these
languages.

Go to http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/translate? and type in
the URL for you homepage and select a language into which you would like it
translated. Follow the hyperlinks in your pages to see them translated as
well. Graphics are unchanged but all text is translated.

The site works the other way as well. Should you know of a website in one
of these languages you would like translated, simply insert the URL and ask
that it be in English.

Obviously, there will be the inaccuracies (and perhaps humorous
consequences) that are present in computer translations, but until
StarTrek's universal translator badge comes to market, this is the next
best thing.  It offers great promise for international communication
through the internet. I'm sure many of you will want to bookmark the
altavista site, if not link your pages to it as well.

Ron Pipkin
Law and Society Association
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:36:39 -0500
From:    Larry Horn <laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Automatic translation

At 1:08 PM -0500 2/9/98, Allan Metcalf wrote:
>This was posted recently on the discussion list for administrators of ACLS
>societies. (Yes, there's a list for everything!) It's news to me . . . and
>maybe news to some others on ADS-L. - Allan Metcalf
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>I have recently
>learned of an interesting website developed by Digital that offers instant
>translations between English and German, French, Italian, Portuguese, and
>Spanish. By putting a link on your homepage to that site, users can have
>your pages and all hyperlinks in your site translated into one of these
>languages.
>
>Go to http://babelfish.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/translate? and type in
>the URL for you homepage and select a language into which you would like it
>translated. Follow the hyperlinks in your pages to see them translated as
>well. Graphics are unchanged but all text is translated.
>


It's pretty cute, but remarkably quirky. I just tried the English to French
conversion (one of the few whose accuracy I can evaluate) on my own
homepage and found particularly surprising the rendering of my "Fall" and
"Spring" term courses as those for the "Chute" and "Spring" semesters
respectively.  The former is a typical decontextualized
take-the-first-entry error (la "chute" does indeed describe what the leaves
do in the relevant season), but the latter is an odd surrender, since
Spring--> "printemps" or even erroneously --> "source" isn't THAT hard to
come up with.  And for some reason every instance of "negation" in one of
my course descriptions is turned into "inversion"--'la double inversion'
sounds vaguely sexy, but is ultimately incoherent.  I don't think the
universal translator is at hand yet, but this babelfish is fun to play
around with.

Larry

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Feb 1998 13:44:00 +0000
From:    Duane Campbell <dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET>
Subject: Re: Automatic translation

At 01:36 PM 2/9/98 -0500, you wrote:
>
>It's pretty cute, but remarkably quirky. I just tried the English to French
>conversion (one of the few whose accuracy I can evaluate) on my own
>homepage and found particularly surprising the rendering of my "Fall" and
>"Spring" term courses as those for the "Chute" and "Spring"

I did the same with German and my home page. Lots of glitches, but
generally comprehensible. The name Bill was translated to Einladen.

The same thing can happen in low-tech circumstances. A German artist friend
wanted us to see the "blanket" he had designed for the new conservatory. I
was baffled until he showed us the Decke, the ceiling.


Duane Campbell  dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net
http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/

------------------------------

Date:    Mon, 9 Feb 1998 19:59:03 -0500
From:    Gerald Cohen <gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU>
Subject: Re: "the skinny"

    Jim Rader's very helpful 2/6/98 posting on "the skinny" caught my
attention particularly for its connecting " skinny" to Naval Academy slang,
where it could mean "physics and chemistry."


     What, I wondered, is the connection of "skinny" with "physics and
chemistry," when I remembered that I once reprinted a 1904 article on Naval
Academy slang ("A New Vocabulary of Slang Created by the Naval Cadets at
Annapolis," _The World --NYC newspaper--, Sunday, May 1, 1904, The World
Magazine section, p.6/2-5---Reprinted in my _Studies in Slang, V, Frankfurt
a.M.: Peter Lang, 1997,  pp.57-60).

    The 1904 article says: "'Physics and Chemistry" are condensed and
compressed into one term, which has come to be applied to one of the
Academy buildings, Skinny."

   Maybe "condensed and compressed" in the quote just above provides
unexpectedly the clue to "the skinny." "Skinny" implies the essentials of a
matter--no frills, no fluff, nothing extraneous--the condensed/compressed
truth.  To hard-nosed scientific types, the various humanistic disciplines
and the fine arts would count as frills, whereas physics and chemistry are
the core of understanding the universe.  (How often in the 1970s did I hear
my own discipline, Foreign Languages, referred to on my engineering
campus--now a much more enlightened place--as "a frill!")

   So, "the skinny" was originally the bare-bones facts, unaccompanied by
any additional blubber.  This also seems to fit the 1938 quote cited by Jim
Rader (from Richard Hallet's _The Rolling World_, p.287):
  "...Had she really given me the skinny of an actual legend from the
archives of her race, or was she wafting me the native poetry of her soul?"

--Gerald Cohen














gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 10 Feb 1998 11:03:16 +0900
From:    Daniel Long <dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP>
Subject: Automatic Dialect translation

Speaking of automatic translation pages.  There is one in Osaka that
will translate the contents of a webpage (in Standard Japanese) into the
Osaka dialect.   Yes, it really works, and no, the Osaka and Tokyo
(standard) dialects are not far enough apart that this kind of thing is
really necessary.  Probably not of much use to many ADS members either,
but the fact that this kind of thing exists says a lot about the dialect
consciousness here in Osaka.
ADS-Lers who wish to Osakanize webpages may access the page below.

http://onishi2.c.u-tokyo.ac.jp/~staka/osaka/osakanize.html

Danny Long
--
Daniel Long, Associate Professor    NEW tel  +81-6-723-8297
Japanese Language Research Center   NEW fax  +81-6-723-8302
Osaka Shoin Women's College         dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp
4-2-26 Hishiyanishi                 http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/
Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577

------------------------------

Date:    Tue, 10 Feb 1998 12:55:52 +0900
From:    Daniel Long <dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JOHO.OSAKA-SHOIN.AC.JP>
Subject: borras for "tidal wave"

I have a late nineteenth century source about a colony on the Bonin
Islands in the Pacific which uses the word "borras" for a wave caused by
an earthquake.

    I must give a brief account of the tidal wave, or "borras" as the
Bonin settlers term it.

A friend has suggested the word may have come from Spanish/Portuguese
borrasca
'tempest, storm, hurricane'.  This sounds likely from the ethnic makeup
of the settlers which included English, US, Spanish, Portuguese, German,
Hawaiian, Chamorro and various Pacific Islanders, Filipino Chinese,
Japanese, etc.  A particularly prominent Portuguese settler was from
Cape Verde.

My questions are whether (1) this word is unique to the English
(pidgin?) of this island, or is found in other varieties of English, or
English-related contact languages.  I would especially like to know if
it turns up in Maritime pidgins.  (2) Also, the form I have is "borras",
different from the Portuguese/Spanish in both form and (slightly) in
meaning.  Are there any Portuguese/Spanish dialects/pidgins, etc. in
which the word exists in this form and in this meaning, or did the word
get shortened by the Bonin islanders?   (3) It isn't clear from the
context (and considering that the writer was not a native of the island)
whether this is a single morpheme or the final -s is a plural. Any
ideas?

Danny Long

--
Daniel Long, Associate Professor    NEW tel  +81-6-723-8297
Japanese Language Research Center   NEW fax  +81-6-723-8302
Osaka Shoin Women's College         dlong[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]joho.osaka-shoin.ac.jp
4-2-26 Hishiyanishi                 http://www.age.or.jp/x/oswcjlrc/
Higashi-Osaka-shi, Osaka Japan 577

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Feb 1998 to 9 Feb 1998
**********************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (2/8/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 6 Feb 1998 to 7 Feb 1998               98-02-08 00:01:07
There is one message totalling 84 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. Fred Cassidy - REPLY!!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Sat, 7 Feb 1998 07:56:29 -0000
From:    Victor Alberto Silva <mop47326[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.TELEPAC.PT>
Subject: Re: Fred Cassidy - REPLY!!

I hope our collegue recovers soon.
Victor Silva, Portugal


----------
> De: Samuel Jones <smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>
> Para: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU
> Assunto: Re: Fred Cassidy - REPLY!!
> Data: Sexta-feira, 6 de Fevereiro de 1998 4:39
>
> Joan!
>
> Thank you so much for informing me about Fred! I am much distressed by
this
> turn of events, but hope that Fred's usual G G & P (= Guts, Gaul &
> Presumption!  That's what we country types from Oklahoma call
"chutzpah.")
> will see him thru to a solid recovery, so that he can get at his memoirs.
> I shall, of course, write to him, and send him some of the silly pieces
of
> Okie-&-Otherwise humor stored on my hard drive.
>
> It was thoughtful of you to let the ADS know about this.  How are YOU
doing?
>
> I know Fred greatly enjoys classical music. I assume he would enjoy a
tape
> or two?
>
> Let me know if there is anything I can do to help out!
>
> ______________________________________________________________________
>
> I'm sorry to have to give you the news that Fred Cassidy had a stroke on
> >Tuesday morning.  He is in Scottsdale, Arizona, where he had planned to
> >spend January and February writing the memoirs of his childhood in
Jamaica.
> >It sounds as if the stroke was relatively minor, but at this point he is
> >still unable to swallow or to talk.  He has regained some of the use of
his
> >right hand, and can walk with no trouble.  (In fact, he took off so fast
in
> >the walker that the physical therapists had to chase after him and slow
him
> >down!)  He will probably be in the hospital for at least another week.
If
> >you would like to let him know you are thinking of him, you can send
cards
> >to this address:
> >
> >Frederic G. Cassidy
> >Scottsdale Memorial Osborn Hospital
> >Room 328
> >7200 E. Osborn Rd.
> >Scottsdale, AZ 85251
> >
> >I'll let you know when he is moved to another kind of care facility, and
> >provide that address.
> >
> >Joan Hall
>
>
> _______________________________
> DR. SAMUEL M. JONES
> Professor Emertitus
> Music & Latin American Studies
> University of Wisconsin-Madison
> "Pen-y-Bryn" - 122 Shepard Terrace
> Madison, WI  53705-3614  USA
> _______________________________
> EMAIL: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu
> _______________________________
> TELEPHONE: 608 + 233-2150
> _______________________________

------------------------------

End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Feb 1998 to 7 Feb 1998
**********************************************

======================================================================

From: Automatic digest processor (2/7/98)
To: Recipients of ADS-L digests

         ADS-L Digest - 5 Feb 1998 to 6 Feb 1998               98-02-07 00:00:29
There are 9 messages totalling 284 lines in this issue.

Topics of the day:

  1. dish (n.) = gossip
  2. Ain't TAN
  3. Saliency vocabulary
  4. More on "the skinny"
  5. DARE Fund-raising position
  6. dish; and outing
  7. Penn Linguistics Colloquium
  8. Africanist/medievalist
  9. LSA Institute, Summer 99

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Feb 1998 00:14:21 -0600
From:    "Donald M. Lance" <engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU>
Subject: Re: dish (n.) = gossip

Surely related to the relevant verb in this saying, which has to have been
around a long time:

        S/He can dish it out, but can s/he take it?

DMLance

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Feb 1998 01:24:58 -0500
From:    Robert Swets <bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BC.SEFLIN.ORG>
Subject: Re: Ain't TAN

> > Subject: ain't for "did not"

Ain't is common in Lancaster County, PA--Pennsylvania "Dutch" for "is it
not?" or "am I not?"

*******************************************************************************
                               __  __
COLOR ME ORANGE                | | | | Voice: 954-782-4582  + Fax: 954-782-4535
R. D. Swets                    | | | | Dir. of Music Ministries, Boca West Com-
170 N.E. 18th Street     ______| | | |______  munity UMC + http:/www.awebs.com/
Pompano Beach, FL 33060 (________) (________)  bocawest/          Sun-Sentinel:
bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bc.seflin.org                             954-356-4635; Fax: 954-356-4676
*******************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Feb 1998 06:53:51 -0500
From:    Fred Shapiro <fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU>
Subject: Re: Saliency vocabulary

On Thu, 5 Feb 1998, Allan Metcalf wrote:

> There are also what I call "stealth" words that enter the general vocabulary
> unnoticed by neologists till years later, because they seem so natural. I had
> an example or two, but can't remember any!

Another example is _prophesize_.  This has been around for decades --
remember Bob Dylan's "Come writers and critics who prophesize with your
pens."  But I don't believe it has been picked up by any dictionaries.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Fred R. Shapiro                             Coeditor (with Jane Garry)
 Associate Librarian for Public Services     TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD
   and Lecturer in Legal Research            ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES
 Yale Law School                             Oxford University Press, 1998
 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu               ISBN 0-19-509547-2
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:03:27 +0000
From:    Jim Rader <jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM>
Subject: More on "the skinny"

_Skinny_ in the sense "the inside dope" has appeared in several
issued of _American Speech_, including:

v. 34 (1959) "Gator (University of Florida) Slang" by Lalia Phipps
Boone:  _What's the skinny_ means 'What's up?' (p. 153).  [This
is the first cite in OED2.]

v. 40 (1965) "Notes on Campus Vocabulary, 1964" by Lawrence Poston,
III, and Francis J. Stillman:  SKINNY, n. Attested in the ATS (904.2)
and the DAS, this word has in the past (especially in Naval Academy
slang) meant a course or class in physics and chemistry.  It may also
be synonymous with _poop_:  "What's the skinny on that French class?"
(p. 195)  [Merriam cite files have an Oct. 22, 1937 letter to the New York
Times from a Naval Academy midshipman confirming the use of _skinny_
to refer to chemistry and physics.]

v. 55 (1980) " 'The Skinny Was Always...' " by Brian Dibble (p.
155-57).  The author discusses the use of the word by R.V. Cassill in
a short story ("Happy Marriage") first published in 1956 in the
_Kansas Magazine_.  The opening sentence of the story is "The
skinny was always:  You married specifically against death."  Dibble
asked Cassill where he had heard the word, to which he replied:
"...I first heard it persistently and widely used by nearly everyone
in the Army and Navy during WWII...I can't begin to guess when or how
it might have come into usage."  Dibble also queried J.B. Hall, the
editor of a short fiction collection in which Cassill's story
appeared; Hall replied:  "It is American slang, not now used very
much, I think....It is exactly equivalent to some old RAF-ese I used
to hear:  to get the 'gen'; now we get--more universally--the 'dope'
on something, the 'word' or the 'info'."  Note that OED2 did not pick
up the antedating.

_Skinny_ in the sense "inside information" was not entered in Merriam
dictionaries until the 6th Addenda section to W3 and C10 came out in
1993.  Our post-C9 citation files have no examples of _the skinny_
(other than references to the _American Speech_ articles) before
1975.  However, Fred Shapiro alerted me to the fact that _skinny_ as noun
in C10 is dated "1938," and sure enough, attached to the dating file
slip is a copy of a 1938 citation.  I waded through the several
inches of cites for _skinny_ in our old (pre-C10) citation files and
could find not a single example of the relevant sense, with the
exception of the 1938 slip, the text of which follows:

-But the elfin corners of Lehua's mouth suggest her gift of
-improvisation.  Had she really given me the skinny of an actual
-legend from the archives of her race, or was she wafting me the
-native poetry of her soul?

Richard Hallet, _The Rolling World_, Boston: Houghton Mifflin Co.,
1938, p. 287.

_Skinny_ in this passage looks more like "the gist" than "the inside
information," but it's hard not to see it as the same word.  The
writer, in mixing registers, may have given it his own twist.

I did a bit of investigation into the man who was using _the skinny_
in 1938.  Richard Matthews Hallet, according to _Who Was Who in
America_, was born in Bath, Maine, in 1887 and died in 1967.  After
taking A.B. and LL.B. degrees at Harvard, he shipped on a British
bark bound for Australia in 1912 and worked at a number of
jobs--stone breaker, sheepshearer, boundary rider (presumably in
Australia), fireman on a British mail packet to London, timber
cruiser in Canada, copper miner in Arizona, watch officer on a U.S.
Army transport carrying horses during World War I--before settling
down to writing as a career.  Hallet later worked for Gannett and was
a war correspondent in the Pacific theater during World War II.
Books by him in NYPL research collection are _ The Lady Aft_ (Boston,
c1915), _Trial by Fire: A Tale of the Great Lakes (Boston, c1916),
_The Canyon of the Fools_ (New York, c1922), _Michael Beam_ (Boston,
c1939), _Foothold of Earth_ (New York, 1944), in addition to _The
Rolling World_; the latter is subject-coded as travel literature, and
so is presumably non-fiction.  Hallet's books, given his varied
background, seem like they might have been a good source for cites;
he was quoted five times in W3, but I haven't checked to see if
other books of his were read by Merriam editors.

I have doubts about the hypothesis that _skinny_ in the sense "inside
dope" had anything to do with thin paper used for briefings;
whatever the origin, the sense could not have arisen during World
War II.  If this usage was so common then, why is there so little
citational evidence for it?  I look forward to seeing what Jon
Lighter's slang dictionary produces on the word.

Jim Rader

s

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Feb 1998 11:31:16 -0600
From:    Joan Houston Hall <jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU>
Subject: Re: DARE Fund-raising position

The Dean of the College of Letters and Science at the University of
Wisconsin-Madison has generously provided DARE with the position
of a fund-raiser for three years.  Because this could be a make-or-break
situaion, we are searching widely to find just the right person for the job.
I post the ad here in case you know someone who might fit the bill.


Development:  The Dictionary of American Regional English (see
website at http://polyglot.lss.wisc.edu/dare/dare.html) seeks a
Development Specialist to initiate and execute a major fund-
raising campaign to carry this renowned project to its conclusion
in 12-15 years.  Meeting the goal requires the acquisition of
substantial new gifts, and the Development Specialist must
exhibit the ability to interact at sophisticated levels with
major gift candidates.  The work of this position will be
coordinated with that of the University of Wisconsin Foundation.
Support for the position is guaranteed for three years;
continuation will be contingent on success.  Duties include
performing prospect research and networking to identify and
contact prospective donors; writing proposals; establishing a
"Friends" organization; maintaining contact with donors.
Applicants must demonstrate excellent speaking and writing
skills; have successful history of funds development; exhibit
creativity and  enthusiasm for the project; work well
independently and as part of a team.  Minimum salary $38,000.
(Unless confidentiality is requested in writing, information
regarding applicants must be released upon request.  Finalists
cannot be guaranteed confidentiality.)  Send cover letter,
r!sum!, and reference list (by March 13) to Joan Houston Hall,
6125 Helen White Hall, 600 N. Park St., Madison, WI 53706.

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Feb 1998 12:33:49 -0800
From:    Peter Richardson <prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU>
Subject: Re: dish; and outing

Re outing: I'll check on the dates of German _sich outen_ 'come out' or,
literally, 'out oneself'. German has done the same thing here that it
frequently does with English--breathe strange new life into a foreign
body. Example: the adjective _ausgepowert_ 'exhausted', lit. 'powered
out', with no credible analog that I'm aware of in English.

PR

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Feb 1998 16:48:51 EST
From:    Allan Metcalf <AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM>
Subject: Penn Linguistics Colloquium

Is any ADS member going to attend the annual Penn Linguistics Colloquium, to
be held in Philadelphia Feb. 28-Mar. 1?
Their organizers write:

>  We would like to know if the American Dialect Society
would be interested in displaying information and/or publications at
this event.<

That's a good idea which I think would be facilitated by a representative on
the spot. Please e-mail me directly if you're interested. - Allan Metcalf
<AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com>

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Feb 1998 18:00:37 -0600
From:    "Timothy C. Frazer" <mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU>
Subject: Africanist/medievalist

I wonder if anyone can forward this to the appropriate list(s).  I have a
friend from Nigeria who's in this country on a temporary appointment which
expires this year.  He would like to remain in the states in a teaching
position, given the deteriorating state of affairs in Nigeria.  He's a
Ph.D. in medieval English, but after teaching for a number of years in
Nigeria has done some work in linguistics (e.g., vowel harmony in Ibo) and
is now working on stylistic studies of Anglophone Afican novelists.

Does anyone know of an open position that needs this combination of
interests?

Thanks for your help.

Tim Frazer

------------------------------

Date:    Fri, 6 Feb 1998 20:22:37 -0600
From:    Dennis Baron <debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU>
Subject: Re: LSA Institute, Summer 99

The LSA is holding its annual institute for the summer of 1999 at the U of
Illinois in Urbana. The last time it was here, in 1977, I chaired the ADS
summer session, and I think about 5 people showed up, though I maybe
overestimating.  The institute lineup looks pretty attractive. Labov, Wang,
Wolfram(I think), lots of others. Publicity hasn't gone out yet, because
things are still in the planning stages.  I'll be here, doing a course
(probably some version of literacy and technology).  If enough people are
interested, maybe we should try for another session, something to beat our
1977 record. As the LSA says, it will be the last time this century to try.
Of course, for those of us waiting for 2001 . . . .

Anyway, Allan and others, think about the possibilities and let me know if
you need a local liaison.

Dennis
_____

Dennis Baron, Acting Head               debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu
Department of English           phone: 217-333-2390
University of Illinois          fax: 217-333-4321
608 South Wright Street
Urbana, Illinois 61801   http://www.english.uiuc.edu/baron

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End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Feb 1998 to 6 Feb 1998
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