There are 6 messages totalling 112 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. HEL and dictionaries (5) 2. Re(2): HEL and dictionaries ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 07:52:49 -0600 From: Ellen Johnson Subject: HEL and dictionaries Hi everybody. I just returned to the list after being away since before the holidays. I am teaching History of the English Lg. for the first time this semester and I am going to need lots of advice. For starters: 1) Which desk dictionary do you recommend to your students for this class? 2) How do I sign up for the HEL internet discussion list? That's it for now. Thanks, Ellen Johnson ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 08:33:33 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Re: HEL and dictionaries > 1) Which desk dictionary do you recommend to your students for this class? I don't think I've ever recommended a specific one for HOTEL students. Our department's "official" recommendation in general is AHD. > 2) How do I sign up for the HEL internet discussion list? Send this to listproc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ebbs.english.vt.edu: subscribe hel-l Ellen Johnson --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 10:25:18 EST From: Terry Lynn Irons Subject: Re: HEL and dictionaries I think the absolutely best desk dictionary for a History of English Language course is the American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, because it has the final essay by Calvert Watkins about Indo-European, the appendix on Indo-European roots, a table of sound correspondences and such. The appendix material can be the basis for an excelllent essay. For more information, look at Don Lance's essay in Glowka & Lance, eds., Language Variation in North American English. Terry -- (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 11:51:10 -0500 From: John J Staczek Subject: Re: HEL and dictionaries For HOTEL, I regularly recommend the AHD (3rd edition). Of course, my students also know my strong feelings bout their need to consult the OED. I was delighted (Natalie, thanks for using the acronym), that HOTEL is my choice here at Georgetown and has been for at least the last seven years. I am always pleased to see and hear students and colleagues refer to it in the same way. ********************************************************************** John J Staczek * Phone: 202.687.5741 Dept of Linguistics * Fax: 301.469.9196 Georgetown University * Internet: camjon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu Washington DC 20057 * Home: 301.469.9196 ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 03:03:53 PST From: tom creswell Subject: Re: HEL and dictionaries Ellen, Unless you are held up and spend most of the term on OE, Indo-European roots and the like, I would recommend the Merriam-Webster 10th. Definitions are entered in historical order, and thus it is possible to learn a great deal about sense development. Also, there is an excellent frontmatter essay on the English Language.AHD definitions are arranged from what the editors believe to be the most commonly used sense to, I guess, the least common. Tom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 21:45:02 -0400 From: Barnhart Subject: Re(2): HEL and dictionaries Dear Tom, I agree with your statements about dictionaries in HEL (also know as HOTEL). One dictionary, unfortunately out of print but still around, which has more insights to the way words are taken by one language into another is The American College Dictionary. The committee assembled to critique the etymologies was composed of Kemp Malone, Robert A. Hall, Jr., G.L. Della Vida, Zellig S. Harris, and C.F. Voegelin. Quite a savvy crew. Regards, David Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 31 Jan 1996 to 1 Feb 1996 *********************************************** There are 25 messages totalling 837 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Re(2): HEL and dictionaries 2. HEL and dictionaries 3. Wanted: IPA poster (3) 4. Fork and Knife? Knife and Fork? (6) 5. Measures of quality 6. Conference (2) 7. Wanted: IPA poster (fwd) 8. Knife and Fork / Socks and Shoes 9. Call for Papers (RMADS) 10. Fork and Knife? Knife and Fork? -Reply 11. ESL/forks to the right/pudding & pie? (5) 12. Can you buoy? 13. ride on a car? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 23:27:45 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Re: Re(2): HEL and dictionaries I agree with David that the ACD was a great dictionary. Too bad it could not be simply reprinted. --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 00:05:43 -0800 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey Subject: Re: HEL and dictionaries At 7:52 AM 2/1/96, Ellen Johnson wrote: >1) Which desk dictionary do you recommend to your students for this class? The only desk dictionaries I countenance are those with my wife's name in them. Oddly enough, AHD does. (Enid, lurking too long, will you not defend RHD?) kim mckinzey ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:04:38 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf Subject: Wanted: IPA poster My office is in a building mostly occupied by the chemistry department; and I notice big and little displays of the Periodic Table of the Elements everywhere - many of them gifts from publishers and suppliers. To announce my own intellectual territory, I'd like to be able to display a poster of the International Phonetic Alphabet. Does anybody know where to get one? (I do have some of the fine maps of the New England Linguistic Atlas, purchased from Bill Kretzschmar's operation at the U of Georgia; but those are for close viewing. I'd like a chart visible from across the room.) - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:19:05 -0600 From: "Kathleen M. O'Neill" Subject: Re: Wanted: IPA poster Allan spake thusly: >To announce my >own intellectual territory, I'd like to be able to display a poster of the >International Phonetic Alphabet. Does anybody know where to get one? Alas, to no avail, I've also sought one, as well as for language family charts. I'd love to display them in our lab. Any info on *any* posters of this sort would be helpful to me, also. ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I ; ;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu ; ;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::; ;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ; ;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ; ;Chicago, IL 60607-7025 ; ;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX ; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:24:07 -0600 From: "Kathleen M. O'Neill" Subject: Fork and Knife? Knife and Fork? I have a question which is, admittedly, a bit mundane for the likes of the great intellectuals on this list, but, darn it, there's a bet ridin' on it! Has any work been done on a regional distribution of usages of "fork and knife" vs. "knife and fork"? A few colleagues of mine claim that they use "knife and fork" and the other variety seems strange. Another colleague uses "fork and knife" and says, to him, the other usage sounds, in his word, "British." Any insights, observations, or anecdotes are welcome, and you may forward them to me personally, if you like. I'll post a summary if the information warrants it. Thanks in advance! ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I ; ;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu ; ;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::; ;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ; ;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ; ;Chicago, IL 60607-7025 ; ;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX ; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:21:49 EST From: Oscar Southard Subject: Measures of quality For as long as I can remember, I have heard people use the phrase "Is the Cadillac of" to refer to a product of high quality (e.g. "Maytag is the Cadillac of washing machines"). The other night on a cooking show, though, the young male host said "This is the Mercedes of vegetable peelers" in describing the gadget with which he was peeling potatoes. Is that phrase in common usage? If so, is it a testimony to the decline of the American automobile industry? Just wondering. Regards, Bruce Bruce Southard English Department East Carolina University Greenville, NC 27858 ensoutha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecuvm.cis.ecu.edu 919-328-6676 919-328-4889 (FAX) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:52:18 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA> Subject: Re: Fork and Knife? Knife and Fork? > A few colleagues of mine claim that they use > "knife and fork" and the other variety seems strange. > Another colleague uses "fork and knife" and says, > to him, the other usage sounds, in his word, "British." i've always used "knife and fork" (in new york, massachusetts, and illinois), can't remember anyone ever using "fork and knife" and am not british, or even south african. however, when discussing the fixedness of conjoined phrases (it's part of a deixis assignment i give), i've found a few differences between my northern u.s. preferences and my students' south african english preferences. e.g., i'd say a "grilled cheese and bacon sandwich", whereas the local preference is for "toasted bacon and cheese" (low fat diets are not the norm here). can't think of another example offhand, except that i've seen "cheese and wine" get- togethers advertised, where i would say "wine and cheese". lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:52:26 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA> Subject: Re: Wanted: IPA poster > Alas, to no avail, I've also sought one, > as well as for language family charts. > I'd love to display them in our lab. > > Any info on *any* posters of this sort > would be helpful to me, also. what's the matter with copying and enlarging? especially if you use color originals and color copy them (e.g., from the atlas of world's languages). (incidentally, color copying is the best thing that ever happened for my first-year lecture transparencies. PET scans, maps, colorful charts from _scientific american_ publications, etc.) our department (rather phonetics-oriented) has anatomy posters of the larynx in the corridors. kind of gross, but colorful. they're from the eli lilly pharmaceutical company. i assume that color maps of the brain are also available, for the cognitively-minded, from some source. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:41:37 GMT0BST From: Gillian Cavagan Subject: Conference INTERNATIONAL SYMPOSIUM ON BILINGUALISM at University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK 10-12 April 1997 fostering new interdisciplinary links KEYNOTE SPEAKERS Peter Auer (Hamburg) Pieter Muysken (Amsterdam) Michel Paradis (Montreal) Shana Poplack (Ottawa) CALL FOR PAPERS Submissions are invited, for oral or poster presentations, on any aspect of bilingualism. Papers which are based on empirical research and which seek to forge new links between established fields (e.g. linguistics, sociology, psychology, neurology, education, speech & language pathology) or to develop new sub-fields are particularly welcome. All submissions will be peer-reviewed, anonymously, by members of the organising committee and selected on the grounds of originality, clarity, significance of findings and conclusions, and contributions to under-developed and/or new interdisciplinary areas of bilingualism. The deadline for submissions is 30 September 1996. Notices of acceptance will be sent out in November, together with full conference programme, travel details and tourist information. HOW TO SUBMIT Each submission should include: - a cover sheet containing (i) the author(s) name(s); (ii) address (including telephone number, e-mail and fax, if available); (iii) affiliation; (iv) the title of the presentation; (v) the category of the submission (20 minutes oral presentation at parallel session or poster presentation); and (vi) equipments required for presentation. -Four camera-ready copies of a one-page abstract. Only hard-copies are considered. ABSTRACTS SHOULD BE SENT TO: Gillian Cavagan for the Organising Committee, ISB Department of Speech King George VI Building University of Newcastle Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU GB Telephone: +44 (0)191 222 7385 Fax: +44 (0)191 222 6518 E-Mail: Gillian.Cavagan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]newcastle.ac.uk SCIENTIFIC COMMITTEE Jim Ackers, Karen Corrigan, Barbara Dodd, Li Wei (Co-Chair), Nick Miller (Co-Chair), Lesley Milroy, Philip Shaw, David Westgate. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:39:30 GMT0BST From: Gillian Cavagan Subject: Conference INTERNATIONAL SYMPOSIUM ON BILINGUALISM at University of Newcastle upon Tyne, UK 10-12 April 1997 fostering new interdisciplinary links KEYNOTE SPEAKERS Peter Auer (Hamburg) Pieter Muysken (Amsterdam) Michel Paradis (Montreal) Shana Poplack (Ottawa) CALL FOR PAPERS Submissions are invited, for oral or poster presentations, on any aspect of bilingualism. Papers which are based on empirical research and which seek to forge new links between established fields (e.g. linguistics, sociology, psychology, neurology, education, speech & language pathology) or to develop new sub-fields are particularly welcome. All submissions will be peer-reviewed, anonymously, by members of the organising committee and selected on the grounds of originality, clarity, significance of findings and conclusions, and contributions to under-developed and/or new interdisciplinary areas of bilingualism. The deadline for submissions is 30 September 1996. Notices of acceptance will be sent out in November, together with full conference programme, travel details and tourist information. HOW TO SUBMIT Each submission should include: - a cover sheet containing (i) the author(s) name(s); (ii) address (including telephone number, e-mail and fax, if available); (iii) affiliation; (iv) the title of the presentation; (v) the category of the submission (20 minutes oral presentation at parallel session or poster presentation); and (vi) equipments required for presentation. -Four camera-ready copies of a one-page abstract. Only hard-copies are considered. ABSTRACTS SHOULD BE SENT TO: Gillian Cavagan for the Organising Committee, ISB Department of Speech King George VI Building University of Newcastle Newcastle upon Tyne NE1 7RU GB Telephone: +44 (0)191 222 7385 Fax: +44 (0)191 222 6518 E-Mail: Gillian.Cavagan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]newcastle.ac.uk SCIENTIFIC COMMITTEE Jim Ackers, Karen Corrigan, Barbara Dodd, Li Wei (Co-Chair), Nick Miller (Co-Chair), Lesley Milroy, Philip Shaw, David Westgate. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:09:40 -0700 From: POLSKY ELLEN S Subject: Re: Wanted: IPA poster (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 09:50:07 -0700 From: John E. Koontz To: POLSKY ELLEN S Subject: Re: Wanted: IPA poster (fwd) The best place to get language family maps is from atlas publishers, who often sell single sheets as well as bound copies, e.g., the Government Printing Office. The Alaska Native Langauges Center has one for Alaskan languages, and I'll bet you can get that Caucasus one as a sheet from Grollier (National Geographic). I don't know any way to look things up in a "Posters in Print." The IPA governing body sells books on the IPA, and might sell posters, too. You could make one easily enough on a computer, but printing it would require access to a printer that handles large sheets. 8.5 x 11 tables of fonts can be printed from many font packages. John E. Koontz NIST:CAML:DCISD 888.02 Boulder, CO john.koontz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nist.gov ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 09:33:34 -0800 From: Allen Maberry Subject: Re: Fork and Knife? Knife and Fork? For me, it has always been "knife and fork", never the other way round. In fact "fork and knife" sounds about as unnatural as "socks and shoes". Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu On Fri, 2 Feb 1996, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote: > I have a question which is, admittedly, > a bit mundane for the likes of the > great intellectuals on this list, > but, darn it, there's a bet ridin' on it! > > Has any work been done on a regional distribution > of usages of "fork and knife" vs. "knife and fork"? > > A few colleagues of mine claim that they use > "knife and fork" and the other variety seems strange. > Another colleague uses "fork and knife" and says, > to him, the other usage sounds, in his word, "British." > > Any insights, observations, or anecdotes are welcome, > and you may forward them to me personally, if you like. > I'll post a summary if the information warrants it. > > Thanks in advance! > > ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; > ;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I ; > ;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu ; > ;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::; > ;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ; > ;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ; > ;Chicago, IL 60607-7025 ; > ;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX ; > ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:38:23 -0700 From: William King Subject: Re: Fork and Knife? Knife and Fork? Another knife and fork bot ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 10:49:25 -0700 From: William King Subject: Knife and Fork / Socks and Shoes My message was cut short. Another knife and fork vote, here. I totally agree with Allen Maberry that socks and shoes sounds unnatural. However, my wife always uses that order. One possibility is that this is a West Indian artifact. Bill King ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 12:06:29 -0600 From: Xiaozhao Huang Subject: Call for Papers (RMADS) CALL FOR PAPERS ROCKY MOUNTAIN AMERICAN DIALECT SOCIETY The RMADS welcomes proposals for 15-minute presentations at the 50th Rocky Mountain Modern Language Association Annual meeting in Albuquerque, New Mexico, October 24-26, 1996. Authors may submit abstracts of 300 words or less dealing with any aspect of dialects in the United States (both English and other languages) to: Xiaozhao Huang Department of English University of North Dakota Grand Forks, ND 58202-7209 Attn: RMADS Session DEADLINE: March 15, 1996. For additional information: telephone: (701) 777-6393 e-mail: xhuang[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]badlands.nodak.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:21:26 -0500 From: Al Futrell Subject: Re: Fork and Knife? Knife and Fork? On Fri, 2 Feb 1996, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote: > A few colleagues of mine claim that they use > "knife and fork" and the other variety seems strange. > Another colleague uses "fork and knife" and says, > to him, the other usage sounds, in his word, "British." Maybe I have been overexposed to studies of slang, but to me fork and knife (wife) is decidely British. I realize you are not talking about rhyming slang, but I am a victim of my training. Most of my pals in Kentucky tend to say knife and fork when talking about utensils, and we always set the table with knives and forks and not forks and knives. And we are allowed to put the knives down while eating without igniting the rancor of our colleagues....:-) Al Futrell -- awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]homer.louisville.edu -- http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01 Dept of Communication -- University of Louisville ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:54:18 -0500 From: Molly Dickmeyer Subject: Re: Fork and Knife? Knife and Fork? -Reply Knife and fork, never fork and knife. The other, however, depends on usage, for me anyway. If I'm telling someone to put them on, I say, "Put on your socks and shoes," I suppose because that's the order in which you must put them on. Otherwise, it's the other way around, as in "Put away your shoes and socks." Molly dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 15:47:57 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: Fork and Knife? Knife and Fork? I don't think this is a mundane question at all. Haj Ross once outlined a principle of 'myopia' which states that in what he called 'freezes' 'heavier' items go to the right. For example, if sex prevailed, why is it men and women but ladies and gentlemen Easy, Haj says, count the syllables. 'Women' is heavier than 'men,' but 'gentlemen' is heavier than 'ladies.' When words have equal numbers of syllables, count phonemes: back and forth (3 and 4) When they have equal numbers of phonemes, go for long and short, voiced versus voiceless, even dip into degree of obstruency thick and thin (voiced final segment, therefore longer) etc... So, how about knife and fork (which sounds right to me). Well, by phoneme count for me it's 3 (knife) to four (fork), but for the British (or those varieties with r-deletion) the 'fork' drops to 3 (with admitted compensatory lengthening, but, the 'knife' already has a diphthong which apparently wins out over the compenstorily lengthened vowel of 'fork' if that is the order which prevails there. Neat huh? Of course, I don't know the distribution. >I have a question which is, admittedly, >a bit mundane for the likes of the >great intellectuals on this list, >but, darn it, there's a bet ridin' on it! > >Has any work been done on a regional distribution >of usages of "fork and knife" vs. "knife and fork"? > >A few colleagues of mine claim that they use >"knife and fork" and the other variety seems strange. >Another colleague uses "fork and knife" and says, >to him, the other usage sounds, in his word, "British." > >Any insights, observations, or anecdotes are welcome, >and you may forward them to me personally, if you like. >I'll post a summary if the information warrants it. > >Thanks in advance! > >;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; >;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I ; >;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu ; >;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::; >;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ; >;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ; >;Chicago, IL 60607-7025 ; >;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX ; >;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 14:41:19 MST From: Tom Uharriet Subject: ESL/forks to the right/pudding & pie? WOW! Dennis' explaination would sure useful in teaching ESL! But what about pudding and pie? Pie and pudding sounds funny. Tom Uharriet In case you missed it, Dennis' explaination follows: > I don't think this is a mundane question at all. Haj Ross once outlined a > principle of 'myopia' which states that in what he called 'freezes' > 'heavier' items go to the right. > > For example, if sex prevailed, why is it > > men and women > > but > > ladies and gentlemen > > Easy, Haj says, count the syllables. 'Women' is heavier than 'men,' but > 'gentlemen' is heavier than 'ladies.' > > When words have equal numbers of syllables, count phonemes: > > back and forth (3 and 4) > > When they have equal numbers of phonemes, go for long and short, voiced > versus voiceless, even dip into degree of obstruency > > thick and thin (voiced final segment, therefore longer) > etc... > > So, how about knife and fork (which sounds right to me). > > Well, by phoneme count for me it's 3 (knife) to four (fork), but for the > British (or those varieties with r-deletion) the 'fork' drops to 3 (with > admitted compensatory lengthening, but, the 'knife' already has a diphthong > which apparently wins out over the compenstorily lengthened vowel of 'fork' > if that is the order which prevails there. > > Neat huh? > > Of course, I don't know the distribution. > > > > > > >I have a question which is, admittedly, > >a bit mundane for the likes of the > >great intellectuals on this list, > >but, darn it, there's a bet ridin' on it! > > > >Has any work been done on a regional distribution > >of usages of "fork and knife" vs. "knife and fork"? > > > >A few colleagues of mine claim that they use > >"knife and fork" and the other variety seems strange. > >Another colleague uses "fork and knife" and says, > >to him, the other usage sounds, in his word, "British." > > > >Any insights, observations, or anecdotes are welcome, > >and you may forward them to me personally, if you like. > >I'll post a summary if the information warrants it. > > > >Thanks in advance! > > > >;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; > >;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I ; > >;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu ; > >;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::; > >;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ; > >;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ; > >;Chicago, IL 60607-7025 ; > >;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX ; > >;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; > utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.shs.nebo.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 11:12:08 -0700 From: William King Subject: Can you buoy? In Phoenix I heard a family use buoy [bu i] while swimming in a pool. The youngest child was floating, and others said "Look, he can buoy!", then began asking others if they, too, could "buoy." Does anyone know where this is from? The older children pronounced pliers as [pla ers] (plahers). Bill King ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 15:08:14 -0700 From: Bruce Gelder Subject: Re: ESL/forks to the right/pudding & pie? >WOW! Dennis' explaination would sure useful in teaching ESL! Sure would. >But what about pudding and pie? Pie and pudding sounds funny. "Pie and pudding" doesn't rhyme with "kissed the girls and made them cry." It would make sense to me that the reason "pudding and pie" was frozen in that pattern was solely because of the nursery rhyme. Bruce Gelder ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 16:15:13 -0600 From: Cynthia Bernstein Subject: ride on a car? A student asked whether his was the only community where they say ride ON a car, as in "Is this the car you're going to ride on?" He's from South Alabama. Cynthia Bernstein Dept. of English Auburn University, AL 36849-5203 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 17:34:32 -0500 From: "H Stephen Straight (Binghamton University, SUNY)" Subject: Re: ESL/forks to the right/pudding & pie? > "Pie and pudding" doesn't rhyme with "kissed the girls and made them > cry." It would make sense to me that the reason "pudding and pie" > was frozen in that pattern was solely because of the nursery rhyme. Moreover, we mustn't forget Haj Ross's "Me First" principle, which overrides the phonological factors to make "Cynthia and Mike" the way I refer to my sister and her husband, while _his_ brother would call them "Mike and Cynthia." In other words, a special personal connection can lead a speaker to put the heavier member first. Yet another overriding principle is good old prescriptive rule-following, which leads to such monstrosities as "Ebenezer and I" in place of the doubly predicted "me and Ebenezer" (which adheres to both the me-first and the lighter-first principles, as revealed by its clear preferability to L1 acquirers). So, we have now identified at least the following four ordered principles: 1. Frozen pattern: pudding and pie. 2. Prescriptive rule-following: Ebenezer and I. 3. Me-first: Janet and Jess (for a relative of Janet's). 4. Lighter-first: knife and fork (Amer) vs. fork and knife (Brit). Are there any others? Best. 'Bye. Steve H Stephen Straight, Dir, Lgs Across the Curric, Binghamton U (SUNY) Nat'l For Lg Ctr, Jan-Jun 96 VOX: 202-667-8100 - FAX: 202-667-6907 S-Mail: 1619 Mass Ave NW (at Scott Circle), Washington, DC 20036 ["sstraigh", not "sstraight"] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 19:20:40 -0700 From: William King Subject: Re: ESL/forks to the right/pudding & pie? Another factor could be that the addition of --and-- allows a single syllable word to be pronounced as a trochaic foot once --and-- is attached in the pronunciation. Salt and pepper, x and vinegar. Other phonological/phonetic factors could come into play. A sequential move from front to back / back to front or high to low / low to high places of articulation should be favored, as would the positioning of voiced stops internal and unvoiced stops at edge. Tall, dark and handsome. These phrases are usually spoken as units with the --and-- reduced to the fullest extent. If the [n] attaches too well to a proper name, it could distort it. Fitch'n Abercromby sounds as if Abercromby had a problem. The store name may have been alphabetically ordered as Abercromby & Fitch, but which had the biggest share or was first, I don't know. All said and done, the possibility of an [n] followed by an [n] is not down and out. Bill King SLAT Univ. of Arizona ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 22:29:21 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: ESL/forks to the right/pudding & pie? >> "Pie and pudding" doesn't rhyme with "kissed the girls and made them >> cry." It would make sense to me that the reason "pudding and pie" >> was frozen in that pattern was solely because of the nursery rhyme. >Moreover, we mustn't forget Haj Ross's "Me First" principle, which >overrides the phonological factors to make "Cynthia and Mike" the way >I refer to my sister and her husband, while _his_ brother would call them >"Mike and Cynthia." In other words, a special personal connection can >lead a speaker to put the heavier member first. Or as in the Yale-Harvard game vs. the Harvard-Yale game, depending on whether you're in New Haven or Cambridge. In fact, as Cooper & Ross point out in the 1975 version of their take on irreversible binominals (Malkiel's earlier term), the various parameters Stephen mentions go back to Panini's work on Sanskrit nominal patterns. As for "ladies and gentlemen" (vs. "men and women", "Mr. and Mrs.", "husband and wife"), I'd argue that it follows from the same prescriptive/politeness factors as in the "Ebenezer and I" vs. (the more "natural") "me and Ebenezer". >So, we have now identified at least the following four ordered >principles: > >1. Frozen pattern: pudding and pie. >2. Prescriptive rule-following: Ebenezer and I. >3. Me-first: Janet and Jess (for a relative of Janet's). >4. Lighter-first: knife and fork (Amer) vs. fork and knife (Brit). > >Are there any others? Sure, a whole bunch (see Cooper & Ross for some)-- singular before plural (Mick Jagger and the Rolling Stones) animate before inanimate, animal before vegetable, human before animal, etc. (and, as we've seen, male before female) generally, unmarked before marked (hot and cold, good and bad) and positive before negative (win or lose, positive or negative, yes or no) and one of my favorites, power source first (gin and tonic, scotch and soda, and/or meat first, even when this overrides the shorter first (bacon and eggs, burger and fries). It's also worth noting that the phonological factors discussed by Cooper & Ross are not limited to length, measured by syllables or moras; vowel quality and consonants are also relevant. I don't have the paper on me, so I can't cite more specifically, but it's in the CLS 11 Parasession volume on Functionalism (and I think Haj went on publishing in that area for a few years afterward). Larry ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Feb 1996 to 2 Feb 1996 ********************************************** There are 12 messages totalling 415 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Fork and Knife? Knife and Fork? 2. Wanted: IPA poster (fwd) 3. ESL/forks to the right/pudding & pie? (2) 4. knife & fork (2) 5. ride on a car? (2) 6. Roll over, sparrow grass... 7. Bounced Mail 8. socks and shoes (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 21:23:21 -0800 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey Subject: Re: Fork and Knife? Knife and Fork? > >A few colleagues of mine claim that they use >"knife and fork" and the other variety seems strange. I'm one of those. Born and raised NYC, lived in NC and Indiana, and mostly Bay Area CA. Rima ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 21:23:31 -0800 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey Subject: Re: Wanted: IPA poster (fwd) At 10:09 AM 2/2/96, POLSKY ELLEN S wrote: >You could make one easily enough on a computer, but printing it would >require access to a printer that handles large sheets. 8.5 x 11 tables of >fonts can be printed from many font packages. Once done on a 8x11, take it to your local "Big Shot". They can 1. Take a picture of your page 2. expand it to poster size 3. Mount it. For about $40. kim ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 00:58:33 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Re: ESL/forks to the right/pudding & pie? Larry, Thanks for adding to Dennis' and Steve's reminder that there is no need to re-invent the wheel for every question. I can't help citing the phonemic transcription item, though, from Gleason's workbook: Flo was fond of Ebenezer; "Eb" for short she called her beau. Speak of tides of love, Great Caesar, You should've seen 'em, Eb and Flo. 'Nuff for tonight, Rudy --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 08:56:21 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: ESL/forks to the right/pudding & pie? Tom, I will not be able to respond to all counterexamples, but pudding and pie is part of a longer poem, and demands of rhythm and the like might easily break the heavier items to the right rule. On the other hand, I have never heard this freeze propnounced fully; I have always heard it /pUdn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]npay/, never /pUdIng[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]npay/. It is altogether possible that /pUdn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n/ is mentally construed as the bisyllabic first element. (I am using U = vowel in look [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] = schwa ng = velar nasal I = vowel in bit) I think the exceptions only prove but do not destroy the rule. >WOW! Dennis' explaination would sure useful in teaching ESL! >But what about pudding and pie? Pie and pudding sounds funny. > >Tom Uharriet > > >In case you missed it, Dennis' explaination follows: > >> I don't think this is a mundane question at all. Haj Ross once outlined a >> principle of 'myopia' which states that in what he called 'freezes' >> 'heavier' items go to the right. >> >> For example, if sex prevailed, why is it >> >> men and women >> >> but >> >> ladies and gentlemen >> >> Easy, Haj says, count the syllables. 'Women' is heavier than 'men,' but >> 'gentlemen' is heavier than 'ladies.' >> >> When words have equal numbers of syllables, count phonemes: >> >> back and forth (3 and 4) >> >> When they have equal numbers of phonemes, go for long and short, voiced >> versus voiceless, even dip into degree of obstruency >> >> thick and thin (voiced final segment, therefore longer) >> etc... >> >> So, how about knife and fork (which sounds right to me). >> >> Well, by phoneme count for me it's 3 (knife) to four (fork), but for the >> British (or those varieties with r-deletion) the 'fork' drops to 3 (with >> admitted compensatory lengthening, but, the 'knife' already has a diphthong >> which apparently wins out over the compenstorily lengthened vowel of 'fork' >> if that is the order which prevails there. >> >> Neat huh? >> >> Of course, I don't know the distribution. >> >> >> >> >> >> >I have a question which is, admittedly, >> >a bit mundane for the likes of the >> >great intellectuals on this list, >> >but, darn it, there's a bet ridin' on it! >> > >> >Has any work been done on a regional distribution >> >of usages of "fork and knife" vs. "knife and fork"? >> > >> >A few colleagues of mine claim that they use >> >"knife and fork" and the other variety seems strange. >> >Another colleague uses "fork and knife" and says, >> >to him, the other usage sounds, in his word, "British." >> > >> >Any insights, observations, or anecdotes are welcome, >> >and you may forward them to me personally, if you like. >> >I'll post a summary if the information warrants it. >> > >> >Thanks in advance! >> > >> >;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; >> >;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I ; >> >;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu ; >> >;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::; >> >;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ; >> >;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ; >> >;Chicago, IL 60607-7025 ; >> >;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX ; >> >;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; >> >utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.shs.nebo.edu Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 10:24:09 EST From: David Bergdahl Subject: knife & fork Ohio University Electronic Communication Date: 03-Feb-1996 10:16am EST To: Remote Addressee ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU ) From: David Bergdahl Dept: English BERGDAHL Tel No: (614) 593-2783 Subject: knife & fork Although haj Ross may have extended the analysis, the first discussion of such matters was Roman Jacobson's concluding remarks to the Indiana Univ conference on Linguistics and Literature, the papers to which were edited by Sebeok. I think the conference was in 1958; the essay is widely reprinted in stylistics collections. On "I think the exceptions only prove but do not destroy the rule": in the original French of this maxim, PROUVER [= to test], the maxim is true; when the English PROVE is substituted in the translation, it is obviously false. When we're done with the repetitions of words frozen in form as the result of a rhyme or the use in a proverbial saying, maybe we can discuss counterfactual generalizations such as this which are repeated time and again as if they meant something. BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs Received: 03-Feb-1996 10:24am ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 10:10:15 CST From: "Joan H. Hall" Subject: Re: ride on a car? Vol III of DARE will have an entry for "on" meaning 'in, into.' The first quote is from 1836 in MA, the second is from 1938 in KY. For the specific phrase "on a car," we have examples from 1944 in seAL, 1972 HI, and 1972 FL. So your student is not alone! The text and maps for Volume III were UPS'd to Harvard yesterday! Joan Hall ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 23:00:03 PST From: tom creswell Subject: Re: ride on a car? Joan, I am sure that other subscribers to ADS-L, as do I, congratulate you on producing Volume 3 of DARE. I look forward to surfing it. Has there been any discussion, by the way, of making DARE electronically available--on CDROM? If all of OED2 can be put on a single CDROM, surely DARE would fit. Or would the many maps use up space at too great a rate? Tom Creswell ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 18:19:12 -0500 From: "Joan C. Cook" Subject: Re: Roll over, sparrow grass... Larry quotes: > "Meanwhile, Richard Parker Bowles, brother of Camilla's ex-husband, > Andrew, said that from the beginning Camilla approved of Charles' > marrying Diana while she remained his power mower." > Richmond Times-Dispatch, quoted in > New Yorker, 1.22/95, p. 83 > Let me be your power mower/ > Till your push mower comes home? Is there a problem here? You're not suggesting she should've remained his paramour? In Baltimore, where I grew up, hon, you cut the lawn with a paramour. Except for a few old guys who'd cut the lawn with a pushmour when they weren't sitting on the porch in their undershirts drinking National beer ... ;-) --Joan *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Joan C. Cook Imagination is Department of Linguistics more important Georgetown University than knowledge. Washington, D.C., USA cookj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu --Albert Einstein *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 17:00:40 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Bounced Mail **************************************************************** REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES TO ADS-L IN THE HEADERS. **************************************************************** > Date: Fri, 2 Feb 1996 23:12:43 -0500 > From: "L-Soft list server at UGA (1.8b)" > Subject: ADS-L: error report from GROVE.IUP.EDU > >The enclosed message, found in the ADS-L mailbox and shown under the spool ID >8319 in the system log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice >for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to >the list has been found in mail body. > > ------------------ Message in error (70 lines) -------------------------- > Date: Fri, 02 Feb 1996 21:16:08 -0500 (EST) > From: BARBARA HILL HUDSON > Subject: Re: Fork and Knife? Knife and Fork? > Organization: Indiana University of Pennsylvania > > Subj: RE: Fork and Knife? Knife and Fork? > > I (family from Florida, have lived in NJ, Chicago, Texas, NY, Washington, DC > and Western PA) have always said "knife and fork." But I say both "shoes and > socks" and "socks and shoes." I think I use the latter when talking little > children, and I am unconsciously stressing the "proper" order for putting them > on. > Barbara > bhhudson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu > > > For me, it has always been "knife and fork", never the other way round. > In fact "fork and knife" sounds about as unnatural as "socks and shoes". > > Allen > maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu > > On Fri, 2 Feb 1996, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote: > > > I have a question which is, admittedly, > > a bit mundane for the likes of the > > great intellectuals on this list, > > but, darn it, there's a bet ridin' on it! > > > > Has any work been done on a regional distribution > > of usages of "fork and knife" vs. "knife and fork"? > > > > A few colleagues of mine claim that they use > > "knife and fork" and the other variety seems strange. > > Another colleague uses "fork and knife" and says, > > to him, the other usage sounds, in his word, "British." > > > > Any insights, observations, or anecdotes are welcome, > > and you may forward them to me personally, if you like. > > I'll post a summary if the information warrants it. > > > > Thanks in advance! > > > > ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; > > ;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I ; > > ;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu ; > > ;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::; > > ;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ; > > ;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ; > > ;Chicago, IL 60607-7025 ; > > ;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX ; > > ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 19:26:27 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA> Subject: socks and shoes "socks and shoes" is not (exclusively, at least) british--that's what we say in my part of new york state. do people really say "i'm going to put on my shoes and socks?" sounds rather uncomfortable. all the conjunction rules have failed to explain to me why we have the twin cities of champaign-urbana, illinois, wherein there is the university of illinois at urbana-champaign. lynne m. --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 19:27:47 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: socks and shoes Lynne Murphy objects, >all the conjunction rules have failed to explain to me why we have >the twin cities of champaign-urbana, illinois, wherein there is the >university of illinois at urbana-champaign. Au contraire. The former order follows from the fact that Champaign (58,000 or so) is larger and presumptively more important than Urbana (35,000 or so) in the view of Illinois or the world as a whole, while the latter is explained by the greater significance of Urbana with respect to Champaign in the context of the University of Illinois. In particular, while departments and university buildings may be scattered across both communities, it is Urbana which has always housed linguistics. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Feb 1996 20:01:19 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: knife & fork >Although haj Ross may have extended the analysis, the first discussion of such >matters was Roman Jacobson's concluding remarks to the Indiana Univ conference >on Linguistics and Literature, the papers to which were edited by Sebeok. I >think the conference was in 1958; the essay is widely reprinted in >stylistics collections. Sorry to be unfamiliar with Jakobson's remarks, but if we're going to get picky, they couldn't have much predated the detailed study by Yakov Malkiel, "Studies in Irreversible Binomials", Lingua 8 (1959): 113-60. And I imagine Panini's analysis anteceded both by a couple thousand years or so. Larry ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Feb 1996 to 3 Feb 1996 ********************************************** There are 11 messages totalling 273 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Knife and Fork 2. ESL/forks to the right/pudding & pie? (2) 3. knife & fork (5) 4. Urbana-Champaign (2) 5. Sears & Roebuck; Montgomery Ward ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 01:10:38 +0000 From: "Albert E. Krahn" Subject: Knife and Fork Here in the shadow of Miller Brewery the proper expression is "knife and fork." This reminds me of an old Peanuts cartoon. Charlie Brown notes that it is raining "cats and dogs" outside. Snoopy, the dog, in his balloon, verbalizes the following: "One does not say 'cats and dogs.' The proper expression is 'dogs and cats.'" (Or something close to this.) ------------- AKRAHN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IBM.NET Al Krahn Milwaukee Area Technical College Milwaukee WI 53233 414/297-6519 fax 414/297-7990 home 414/476-4025 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 03:00:06 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: ESL/forks to the right/pudding & pie? Was the original original "pudding and pie" or "pud 'n pie"? I can't remember the whole rhyme, but my aging memory tells me that I thought as a kid the rhyme had a vernacular phonological rendition of "pudding pie." I suspect that Abercrombie added Fitch to the firm some time ago, so the me-first principle applies. I'm glad Dennis thought of Haj's categories. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 09:22:42 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" Subject: Re: knife & fork Of course, I am just a hillbilly boy, but I did mean the proverb in its traditional sense (in which 'prove' = 'test'). I thought the context of my remarks would have made it clear that that was my meaning. Why David Bergdahl finds the 'English' sense of 'prove' inapprpriate is a mystery to me since even my Webster's 9th Collegiate (the closest to hand) offers (with no 'archaic' label) senses 2 a and b as ones which mean to 'test' (specifically, 'to test the truth, validity, or genuineness of'). I agree with him, however, that it is indeed interesting to study what it is people mean by this proverb when they take 'prove' to mean 'establish the existence, truth, or validity of.' Or at least I think I agree. He seems to suggest that users who have what he calls the 'English' meaning here use this (and other such items) 'as if they meant something.' He apparently distrusts the folk mind a great deal more than I do. I am sure people who have the 'English' sense of 'prove' mean 'something' when they use the proverb. What they mean is a matter for empirical investigation. (Why am I blathering about the fact that it is interesting to find out why people use language the way they do? What is the ADS about? What is linguistics? The breakfast hot sauce has gone to my brian.) Sorry, Dennis PS: The reference David suggests is R. Jakobson, Closing Statement: Linguistics and Poetics, T. A. Sebeok (ed.) Style in Language, MIT Press, 1960, pp. 350-377. The reference to such preferences is on 356-7, although it refers only to number of syllables and only to conjoined 'names' (Joan and Margery). > Ohio University Electronic Communication > > > Date: 03-Feb-1996 10:16am EST > > To: Remote Addressee ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU ) > > From: David Bergdahl Dept: English > BERGDAHL Tel No: (614) 593-2783 > >Subject: knife & fork > > >Although haj Ross may have extended the analysis, the first discussion of such >matters was Roman Jacobson's concluding remarks to the Indiana Univ conference >on Linguistics and Literature, the papers to which were edited by Sebeok. I >think the conference was in 1958; the essay is widely reprinted in stylistics >collections. > >On "I think the exceptions only prove but do not destroy the rule": in the >original French of this maxim, PROUVER [= to test], the maxim is true; when the >English PROVE is substituted in the translation, it is obviously false. When >we're done with the repetitions of words frozen in form as the result of a >rhyme >or the use in a proverbial saying, maybe we can discuss counterfactual >generalizations such as this which are repeated time and again as if they meant >something. > >BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU > David Bergdahl > Ohio University/Athens > "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs > > > > >Received: 03-Feb-1996 10:24am Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)432-1235 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 11:38:01 -0700 From: William King Subject: Re: knife & fork I think thatn of bacon and eggs ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 11:47:05 -0700 From: William King Subject: Re: knife & fork Excuse the incomplete message sent before. I think that bacon and eggs is an interesting possible exception. A possible explanation is that meat is more significant than eggs, hence ham and eggs, that it was the exceptional that was fronted. However, the jam of toast and jam seems to be more of a treat than the toast. Some of these examples may simply be fixed. Bacon and eggs could be deconstructed into post and pre-animate leaving room for a chicken in the middle, finally giving us an answer to the old question, "Which came first..." I hear the groans. Bill King ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 12:18:00 -0700 From: William King Subject: Re: ESL/forks to the right/pudding & pie? The point of Abercrombie and Fitch is that had Fitch added Abercrombie to the firm, the addition of an extra-heavy name would have created a less harmonic name for the firm. This is not to say that me-first does not apply, only that it competes with another requirement. Within sight is a poster of Arizona hummingbirds. I would prefer a firm of Hummingbird and King to King and Hummingbird any day, even if it does fly in the face of animal over human. Bill King ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 14:18:29 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" Subject: Re: knife & fork "I think thatn of bacon and eggs" ??? What did I miss? Thanks, Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 14:19:35 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" Subject: Re: knife & fork Re "I think thatn of bacon and eggs" -- thanks for the clarification. Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 12:50:04 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Urbana-Champaign Larry is right, that the (recent) larger size of Champaign (founded as a breakaway from Urbana) probably dictates the C-U order, or it may have descended from the fact that the train station was in Champaign. (Maybe Dennis Baron can do some digging on this.) Prior to the building of the library building (which straddles the boundary line) and the old gym, all of the campus was on the Urbana side of the line. Bloomfield (and probably a majority of the present faculty) lived in Urbana, which definitely gives it priority for linguists. Incidentally, one of my former colleagues there (who lives in Urbana), grows grapes and annually serves bottles of his "Urbana champagne". --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 12:59:49 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Sears & Roebuck; Montgomery Ward The logic of Hummmingbird and King should have given us Roebuck and Sears. It is interesting that the law of least effort has left us ambilaterally with Sears' and Ward's. --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Feb 1996 21:16:19 -0500 From: Dennis Baron Subject: Re: Urbana-Champaign >Larry is right, that the (recent) larger size of Champaign (founded as a >breakaway from Urbana) probably dictates the C-U order, or it may have >descended from the fact that the train station was in Champaign. (Maybe >Dennis Baron can do some digging on this.) Prior to the building of the >library building (which straddles the boundary line) and the old gym, >all of the campus was on the Urbana side of the line. Bloomfield (and probably >a majority of the present faculty) lived in Urbana, which definitely gives >it priority for linguists. > Incidentally, one of my former colleagues there (who lives in Urbana), >grows grapes and annually serves bottles of his "Urbana champagne". > > --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) I haven't been following this thread, though I gather the subject is irreversible binomials. I don't know that one theory can explain the order of these phrases. It certainly hasn't anything to do with number of syllables or logic. Champaign - Urbana it is in common parlance, and has been for the 20+ years I've been here; it's also C-U, and sometimes Shampoo Banana, but it remains officially the University of Illinois at Urbana Champaign (acronymized as UIUC). Of the linguists, the Kachrus, Zgusta, Jerry Morgan and Georgia Green live in Urbana, while Hans Hock lives in Champaign. The late Henry Kahane lived in Urbana, and I believe Rene still does. Peter Cole lived in Urbana before he moved to Delaware. Champaign may be bigger than Urbana now, but Urbana had the one ward that went for McGovern. Many irreversible binomials are in fact reversible: ham and eggs > (green) eggs and ham salt and pepper > pepper and salt in many instances. Name binomials probably don't reverse as much, tho C-U/U-C is a good exception. There was a usage debate once, I believe, over shoes and socks, the argument being that socks should come first, since they're put on first. Nonetheless, shoes and socks still sounds more natural to me, and Lynne, I'm from New York. Dennis Baron (which I still prefer to Baron Dennis) Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English office: 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 S. Wright Street home: 217-384-1683 Urbana, IL 61801 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Feb 1996 to 4 Feb 1996 ********************************************** There are 9 messages totalling 326 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Urbana-Champaign 2. The skinny on PROVE, thanks to my colleague Carl Berkhout (2) 3. citizens of? 4. knife & fork 5. Fwd: Re(2): The skinny on PROVE, thanks to my colleague Carl Berkhout 6. Sears & Roebuck; Montgomery Ward 7. LEX-CALENDAR 8. word of the year list ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 00:58:46 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Re: Urbana-Champaign Dennis-- I did not mention it, but Muriel and I lived in Urbana, too (since we still own our house there, we are at least still taxpayers). Ron Cowan also lives in Urbana, as do C. C. Cheng and Eyamba Bokamba. You did not mention on which side of the great divide you live. On a different tack, Allan Walker Read was doing a paper a few years ago on names for people from various places, and contacted me to find out what the local nomenclature was there (here in Tucson, for example, one sees "Tucsonans" mentioned frequently in the newspaper, as "Chicagoans" are in Chicago). I informally surveyed a number of long-time residents and natives, and even put in a letter to the editor soliciting information, but no one had a name for a person from either community, or even seemed to feel a lexical gap. --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 01:08:25 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: The skinny on PROVE, thanks to my colleague Carl Berkhout From: UACCIT::CTB "Carl Berkhout" 4-FEB-1996 20:20 To: UACCIT::RTROIKE CC: CTB Subj: RE: To prove your interest Yep. Interest so proved. > On "I think the exceptions only prove but do not destroy the rule": in > the original French of this maxim, PROUVER [= to test], the maxim is > true; when the English PROVE is substituted in the translation, it is > obviously false. When we're done with the repetitions of words frozen > in form as the result of a rhyme or the use in a proverbial saying, > maybe we can discuss counterfactual generalizations such as this which > are repeated time and again as if they meant something. > > BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU > David Bergdahl > Ohio University/Athens Actually, the usage is historically quite correct and is confirmed in Latin legal documents. (The operative French term for "test" would be "e'prouver," not "prouver.) The people on alt.usage.english were arguing about this last spring. Here's the archival summary: > The common misconception about "The exception proves the rule" > (which you will find in several books, including the _Dictionary > of Misinformation_) is that "proves" means "tests". That is *not* > the case, although "proof" *does* mean "test" in such phrases as > "proving ground", "proof spirit", "proofreader", and "The proof of > the pudding is in the eating." > As MEU says, "the original legal sense" of the "the exception > proves the rule" is as follows: "'Special leave is given for men to > be out of barracks tonight till 11.0 p.m.'; 'The exception proves > the rule' means that this special leave implies a rule requiring > men, except when an exception is made, to be in earlier. The value > of this in interpreting statutes is plain." > MEU2 adds: "'A rule is not proved by exceptions unless the > exceptions themselves lead one to infer a rule' (Lord Atkin). The > formula in full is _exceptio probat regulam in casibus non > exceptis_." [That's Latin for "The exception proves the rule in > cases not excepted."] > The phrase seems to date from the 17th century. (Anthony Cree, > in _Cree's Dictionary of Latin Quotations_ (Newbury, 1978) says > that the phrase comes from classical Latin, which it defines as > Latin spoken before A.D. 400; but no classical citations have > come to our attention.) Below are the five seventeenth-century > citations we could find. 1, 3, and 4 are in the OED; 2 is in > _Latin for Lawyers_ by E. Hilton Jackson and Herbert Broom; 5 is > in _A Dictionary of the Proverbs in England in the Sixteenth and > Seventeenth Centuries_, by Morris Palmer Tilley. > 1. 1617 Samuel Collins, _Epphata to F.T.; or, the Defence of the > Bishop of Elie concerning his answer to Cardinall Ballarmine's > Apologie_ 100: "Indefinites are equivalent to universalls > especially where one exception being made, it is plaine that all > others are thereby cut off, according to the rule Exceptio > figit regulam in non exceptis." [Note that "figit" rather than > "probat" is here used. "Probo" can mean any of "give official > approval to", "put to the test", or "demonstrate the verity of"; > but "figo" can only mean "fix", "fasten", or "establish".] > 2. _The reports of Sir Edvvard Coke, Kt., late Lord Chief-Justice > of England_ (1658 edition; Sir Edward Coke died in 1634): "[...] > upon which Award of the Exigent, his Administrators brought a > Writ of Error; and it was adjudged, That the Writ of Error did > lie, and the reason was, Because that by the Awarding of the > Exigent, his Goods and Chattels were forfeited, and of such > Awards which tend _ad tale grave damnum_ of the party, a Writ of > Error lieth, although the Principal Judgment was never given; in > this case, _Exceptio probat regulum_, & _sic de similibus_." > ["A writ of error lieth" = "an appeal is admissible"; "exigent" > = writ of suspension of civil rights; _ad tale grave damnum_ = > "to such great loss"; _sic de similibus_ = "thus about similar > things".] > 3. 1640 Gilbert Watts, _Bacon's Advancement and proficience of > learning_ VIII. iii. Aph. 17: "As exception strengthens the > force of a Law in Cases not excepted, so enumeration weakens it > in Cases not enumerated." [So when Lewis Carroll wrote "I am > fond of children (except boys)", he affirmed his fondness for > girls more strongly than he would have had he written merely "I > am fond of children."] > 4. 1664 John Wilson, _The Cheats_, To Reader: "For if I have shown > the odd practices of two vain persons pretending to be what they > are not, I think I have sufficiently justified the brave man > even by this reason, that the exception proves the rule." [The > OED (but not the other books I checked) gives the date as 1662. > As far as I can tell from this scant context, Wilson seems to be > saying, "My description of two cowardly cheats should serve to > show you the bad consequences of not being brave, and hence > convince you of the need for a rule: 'Be brave!'."] > 5. 1666 Giovanni Torriano, _Piazza universale di proverbi italiani, > or A Common Place of Italian Proverbs_ I, p. 80 "The exception > gives Authority to the Rule." note 28, p. 242 "And the Latin > says again, Exceptio probat Regulam." > To convince us that *in this particular phrase* "proves" originally > meant "tests", you will have to cite any quotations as old as or > older than these to support your view. Here's another, from the Michigan Early Mod Texts, though it's ambiguous: > 1622 > For, if any man would be exquisite therein, and speake rightly > according to the rules thereof, it is necessarie hee should turne ouer > the most part of Grammaticall Commentaries, that he may the better > make election which of them were fittest to bee followed; though he > confesseth, that it would be a perpetuall and an vnprofitable labour, > to gather all rules, to examine all places of Authours, and out of > all these to put all occurent exceptions vnto rules; > > webbe, j., truth, 16-17 Carl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 06:47:33 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Re: citizens of? I often wondered if Paris natives realize that other folk consider them Parasites? People from Tampa, FL as Tampons; Seth Sklarey Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word Coconut Grove, FL crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com ============================= >Dennis-- > I did not mention it, but Muriel and I lived in Urbana, too (since >we still own our house there, we are at least still taxpayers). Ron Cowan >also lives in Urbana, as do C. C. Cheng and Eyamba Bokamba. You did not >mention on which side of the great divide you live. > On a different tack, Allan Walker Read was doing a paper a few years >ago on names for people from various places, and contacted me to find out >what the local nomenclature was there (here in Tucson, for example, one sees >"Tucsonans" mentioned frequently in the newspaper, as "Chicagoans" are in >Chicago). I informally surveyed a number of long-time residents and natives, >and even put in a letter to the editor soliciting information, but no one >had a name for a person from either community, or even seemed to feel a >lexical gap. > > --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:33:11 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: The skinny on PROVE, thanks to my colleague Carl Berkhout Thanks very much, Rudy (and indirectly Carl). I didn't know that, and was in fact like probably most of us operating in effect with a second-order folk- etymology, as with the classic cases of "Welsh rarebit" (which really was originally "Welsh rabbit") or "journey-cake" (which really was something closer to Johnny-cake) or, I would argue, "spit and image" (which, if not from "spittin' image", was as far as I can tell originated as "spitten [past part.] image"). On the same subject, Carl B's reference to "the proof of the pudding is in the eating" as an instance in which proof/prove really DOES refer to 'test' rather than 'demonstrate' reminds me of the curious variant of this expression: "the proof is in the pudding". This illustrates a kind of loss of transparency also found in "happy as a clam" (originally, if the standard references are correct [and I'm beginning to wonder!], < "happy as a clam at high tide"). I'm sure someone is going to produce evidence that it really WAS "happy as a clam", with evidence from Sanskrit. But if not, can anyone think of other opacified proverbs like "the proof is in the pudding" or expressions like "happy as a clam"? Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:46:20 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: knife & fork If anyone is still hanging on to the impression that fewer-syllables-before- more-syllables is the major principle determining order of nominals in fixed binomials/freezes, here are a few examples where the phonological tendency is overridden by one or more semantic factors [most from Cooper & Ross 1975] happy or sad fathers and sons parent and child singular and plural monolingual or bilingual heaven and hell predator and prey living/alive or dead peanut butter and jelly As for bacon and eggs, there is indeed a meat-first tendency, operative also in my aforementioned burger and fries (hot dog and roll, etc.), which is in fact strong enough to account for Campbell's pork and beans, one that always puzzled me because the only "pork" anyone could find therein was that little slab of fat. (I suppose "pork fat and beans" would have sounded less appetizing.) Cooper and Ross also point to "surf and turf", "fish or fowl", and "fish or game" to suggest that while meat precedes almost every- thing else, it's outranked by fish. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 12:04:43 -0400 From: Barnhart Subject: Fwd: Re(2): The skinny on PROVE, thanks to my colleague Carl Berkhout Perhaps _spitting image_ (See Barnhart Dictionary of Ety.) comes from the noun _spit_ meaning "exact likeness." Such usage is noted from 1825 (OED, n #2, def. 3) "the very spit of..." That suggests _spit 'n image_. David K. Barnhart Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 11:26:10 -0600 From: "Kathleen M. O'Neill" Subject: Re: Sears & Roebuck; Montgomery Ward Rudy spake thusly: >The logic of Hummmingbird and King should have given us Roebuck and Sears. But it's perhaps worth remembering that it was Sears, Roebuck, and Co. ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I ; ;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu ; ;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::; ;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ; ;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ; ;Chicago, IL 60607-7025 ; ;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX ; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 15:10:04 -0400 From: Barnhart Subject: LEX-CALENDAR Today (February 6th) is the 101st anniversary of the birth of ERIC PARTRIDGE (1894-1979). English lexicographer; editor of many dictionaries of slang. His best known work is _A Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional English_ (1937; 9th edition 1984). He was one of the most successful full-time independent lexicographers in the 20th Century. February 7th: One of the most productive dates in the history of English lexicography. Born on this date were: 1837: Sir James Augustus Henry MURRAY (1837-1915). Scottish lexicographer; the principal editor of _The Oxford English Dictionary_. He planned the work and was responsible for the volumes A-D, H-K, O, P, and T (together constituting more than half of the book). The OED is now universally recognized as the single most important dictionary of the English language. It has been twice updated and once coalesced. 1857: Benjamin Eli SMITH (1857-1913). American lexicographer, managing editor and subsequently editor-in-chief, of _The Century Dictionary and Cyclopedia_ (1894 et seq.). 1777: John PICKERING (1777-1846). American philologist (son of Timothy Pickering, Secretary of State for Presidents George Washington and John Adams). He published _Vocabulary; or Collection of Words and Phrases, which Have Been Supposed to be Peculiar to the United States of America_ (1816), a Greek-English lexicon (1826), and _Remarks on the Indian Languages of North America_ (1836). On Friday February 9th we celebrate the anniversary of the birth of William Dwight WHITNEY (1827-1894). American philologist and lexicographer, first editor-in-chief of _The Century Dictionary and Cyclopedia_. [See Smith, above] He was professor of Sanskrit at Yale College and the first president of the American Philological Society. Although appearing roughly at the same time as the OED, Whitney recognized the ijmportance of technical vocabulary, a type of word Murray had been warned not to embrace too hastily. More later, stay tuned! David K. Barnhart Barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Highlands.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 20:02:32 -0600 From: Dan Goodman Subject: word of the year list On Mon, 5 Feb 1996, youngblood wrote: > Dan: > > Cool stuff. Do you know if I need someone's permission to include the > winning list in a corporate newsletter? I don't know, but I'll find out. I think permission may be needed, but given provided the American Dialect Society is credited. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Feb 1996 to 5 Feb 1996 ********************************************** There are 22 messages totalling 656 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Sears & Roebuck; Montgomery Ward (3) 2. knife & fork (2) 3. sanskrit proof of spittin' rabbit 4. spitten image [was: The skinny on PROVE] (3) 5. Straight Wo/Man First? (2) 6. BBC Reith Lectures 7. conjoined names 8. word of the year list 9. "going medieval" (5) 10. Five & Dime / Dime store (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 22:20:31 -0700 From: William King Subject: Re: Sears & Roebuck; Montgomery Ward In addition to Sears and Roebuck, I believe that there was a third, silent partner who was Jewish. Roebuck sold out early on, leaving Sears, who worked himself to death without taking time to eliminate the extended business name himself. Montgomery Ward was one person named Montgomery, something I intuitively believed as a kid, even though Montgomery to me was strictly a last name. I think that Montgomery Ward sounds much better than Ward Montgomery, but yes, yes, I would never refer to it as Montgomery's! I'd rather go to Sears. These are esthetic considerations that may be beyond the realm of the rationale considered here. One neat thing about the name Montgomery Ward in its entirety is that the M and W are reciprocal images that look quite nice in caps. A mail order fan, Bill King ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Feb 1996 23:37:08 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Re: knife & fork I suppose the traditional male dominance or "power" factor is responsible for the fixed order of Fibber McGee and Molly George Burns and Gracie Allen though when duos like this are announced on stage, typically the master of ceremonies gives greater prosodic prominence to the second of the two. Rudy --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 01:51:02 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Re: sanskrit proof of spittin' rabbit Once upon a time a famous Indian artist and an old Indian storyteller were visiting the Cardiff countryside, when the artist noticed an unusual rabbit with 5 legs. He had nothing with him, but a small flat rock nearby served as his drawing board and he etched the image of this rare rabbit into the rock with a sharp rock. The Indian artist new of the technique of batik-ing and knew that if he chewed a colored berry and spit it on the rock that he could reproduce the image by pressing a piece of cloth to the rock which was wet with the berry juice, which made a good dye. He began selling the reproductions as he travelled to finance their continued journey as they made their way back to India. He also made a gold ornament my pouring molten gold over the rock, the first proof of which he kept for himself and wore around his neck. One day when making the little cakes which he liked to eat as he was waiting for his bowels to move, he inadvertently placed some of the cake dough on the rock and after he had baked it he noticed the impression of the rabbit. He began to make other drawings on rocks and sold the reproductions and became rather famous. But he was best known for his spitting image of the rare Welch Rabbit as well as for the cakes with various themes which he sold to illustrate his many journeys.. One day a gang of thieves who had heard about the artist tried to steal the gold proof from the artist, but he wisely put it in his mouth. When he realized they would probably search his mouth too, he spit it into a pudding he was making. After the artist died the storyteller continued to tell the story about the smart artist who made the spitting image of the rare Welch rabbit, about the proof in the pudding and about the journey cakes. Many years later, after John Crapper invented the toilet, the fact that the artist liked to eat the cakes while waiting for his bowels to move, the journey cakes also came to be known as johnny cakes. The storyteller often told the story of the artist at a seaside resort on the Indian Ocean and sometimes drew a picture of the rabbit on the sand. Sometimes he even wrote some of the story in the sand to attract tourists so he could sell his story. These sand scripts were what the tourists called the language he spoke, but a French entrepreneur found the story to be a better sell without the script or sans script, and eventually corrupted the spelling to Sanskrit. As you can see from the time written, about 4:00 o'clock in the morning that this all came to me in a dream. SETH SKLAREY Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten (Sans Script) Word Coconut Grove, FL crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com >Thanks very much, Rudy (and indirectly Carl). I didn't know that, and was in >fact like probably most of us operating in effect with a second-order folk- >etymology, as with the classic cases of "Welsh rarebit" (which really was >originally "Welsh rabbit") or "journey-cake" (which really was something closer >to Johnny-cake) or, I would argue, "spit and image" (which, if not from >"spittin' image", was as far as I can tell originated as "spitten [past part.] >image"). On the same subject, Carl B's reference to "the proof of the pudding >is in the eating" as an instance in which proof/prove really DOES refer to >'test' rather than 'demonstrate' reminds me of the curious variant of this >expression: "the proof is in the pudding". This illustrates a kind of loss of >transparency also found in "happy as a clam" (originally, if the standard >references are correct [and I'm beginning to wonder!], < "happy as a clam at >high tide"). I'm sure someone is going to produce evidence that it really WAS >"happy as a clam", with evidence from Sanskrit. But if not, can anyone think >of other opacified proverbs like "the proof is in the pudding" or expressions >like "happy as a clam"? > >Larry > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 02:44:14 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Re: Sears & Roebuck; Montgomery Ward OK, what's the story with Merrill Lynch, Pierce, Fenner & Bean. I once met Mr. Darwin Fenner in New Orleans. I never knew if Merrill Lynch was one person or two. Who was it who said that Republicans always have two last names one of which is their first name? Also, I presume there was a trade name of Woolworth's Five and Ten Cent Store which everyone called The Five and Ten. Well, almost everyone. Some called it The Five and Dime. What did you call it where you are from? SETH SKLAREY crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com P.S. Was it Sears, Roebuck & Cohen? ;-) ================================= >In addition to Sears and Roebuck, I believe that there was a third, silent >partner who was Jewish. Roebuck sold out early on, leaving Sears, who >worked himself to death without taking time to eliminate the extended >business name himself. Montgomery Ward was one person named Montgomery, >something I intuitively believed as a kid, even though Montgomery to me >was strictly a last name. >I think that Montgomery Ward sounds much better than Ward Montgomery, but >yes, yes, I would never refer to it as Montgomery's! I'd rather go to >Sears. >These are esthetic considerations that may be beyond the realm of the >rationale considered here. One neat thing about the name Montgomery >Ward in its entirety is that the M and W are reciprocal images that look >quite nice in caps. >A mail order fan, >Bill King > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 02:56:06 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Re: knife & fork Maybe the rule is that the straight-man is listed first? Martin and Lewis Abbott & Costello or is it the other way around? Laurel & Hardy and how about those classics: Gallagher & Shean (Sheen?) Gilbert & Sullivan and the classic Groucho Marx law firm of Hungerdunger, Hungerdunger, Hungerdunger & McCormick and the slogans: Tippecanoe & Tyler Too! wing and a prayer praise the Lord and pass the ammunition the lame & the halt hops, rice and best barley malt And, what is the politically correct name for the "straight man" in a lesbian comedy team? SETH SKLAREY Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word Coconut Grove, FLorida crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com ====================== >I suppose the traditional male dominance or "power" factor is responsible >for the fixed order of > Fibber McGee and Molly > George Burns and Gracie Allen >though when duos like this are announced on stage, typically the master of >ceremonies gives greater prosodic prominence to the second of the two. > > Rudy > --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 09:05:16 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: spitten image [was: The skinny on PROVE] OK, by popular demand, my skinny on spitten/spit 'n'/spittin' images David Barnhart presents the received view: >Perhaps _spitting image_ (See Barnhart Dictionary of Ety.) comes from the noun >_spit_ meaning "exact likeness." Such usage is noted from 1825 (OED, n #2, >def. 3) "the very spit of..." That suggests _spit 'n image_. I here incorporate the theory I came up with (prompted by a suggestion of Debra Halperin Biasca) a few years ago. I'd love any feedback about whether this is in fact plausible. The below was posted on Linguist List: Date: Tue, 28 Sep 93 10:21:02 EDT From: Larry Horn Subject: Re reanalysis: the spittin' image The recent discussion of metathesis, metanalysis, and reanalysis evokes our extended colloquy almost exactly a year ago, on that subset of reanalysis due to folk etymology--the category of "pullet surprises". One of the all-time pullet surprise winners, along with the doggy dog world and the devil-make-hair attitude, is 'spittin' image'. The standard story, as Mike Kac mentioned during last year's exchange (citing William Safire), is that the earlier 'spit and image' had become opaque with the loss of the relevant meaning of the nominal 'spit', and speakers reanalyzed the expression as if it contained the participle, hence 'spittin(g) image', which is now frequently seen in print. (The meaning that might be associated with expectorating likenesses isn't all that transparent either, but let's leave that aside.) Now it's clear that the source of the nominal is the trope involving the verb, as indicated by the following OED citations: (1690) We are of our father the devil,...as like him as if spit out of his mouth. (1788: Grose, Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue) He is as like his father as if he was spit out of his mouth; said of a child much resembling his father. Slightly later, the nominal emerges, generally in the phrase 'the very spit of'. The OED provides citations for this meaning of 'spit' (='the exact image, likeness, or counterpart of') from 1825 ('a daughter...the very spit of the old captain') and 1836 ('You are a queer fellow--the very spit of your father'), and somewhat later it appears that 'spit' ceased being, as it were, a very-polarity item, occurring as well in the collocation 'spit and...': (1859) the very spit and fetch of Queen Cleopatra (1895) She's like the poor lady that's dead and gone, the spit an' image she is. Now, of course, it's pretty much ONLY the 1895 use that survives: As Webster 3 notes, 'spit' in the meaning 'perfect likeness' is 'usu. used in the phrase "spit and image" '. But, as just electronically suggested to me by Debra Halperin Biasca, are we sure this is really 'the spit and image'? How about 'the spitten image', where 'spitten' is an instance of the (dialectally attested) past participle of 'spit'? (As in the anti-cloning ordinance: Thou shalt make no spitten images.) One argument for such a derivation is the parallel use of the participle in French: my dictionary cites 'C'est son portrait tout crachE, c'est lui tout crachE' as 'fam.' for 'c'est son portrait tres rassemblant', i.e. his spitten image. Note also that even the 1895 citation above is homophonous, as transcribed, with the dialectal past participle as opposed to the conjoined nominal. (Crucially, it's spit 'N' image -- never spit AND image.) Now if our 'spitten' etymology is correct, that would still leave 'spittin' image', with the present participle, as a folk etymology, but with a different source; this time the opacity arises because a given speaker is unfamiliar with the dialectal PAST participle 'spitten'. And since all three (spitten' image, spittin' image, spit 'n' image) are homophonous (before the hyper- urbanisms 'spittinG image', 'spit anD image' are invented), there's no way to tell from the phonology. ____________________________ So that's my story, and I'm stickin to it. Not as colorful as Seth's version, perhaps, but... Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 08:07:19 MST From: Tom Uharriet Subject: Straight Wo/Man First? > Maybe the rule is that the straight-man is listed first? > Which Smothers Brother is said first? > Martin and Lewis > Abbott & Costello > or is it the other way around? > Laurel & Hardy > > > and how about those classics: > > Gallagher & Shean (Sheen?) > Gilbert & Sullivan > and the classic Groucho Marx law firm of > Hungerdunger, Hungerdunger, Hungerdunger & McCormick > > and the slogans: > Tippecanoe & Tyler Too! > wing and a prayer > praise the Lord and pass the ammunition > the lame & the halt > hops, rice and best barley malt > > And, what is the politically correct name for the "straight man" in a > lesbian comedy team? > > > SETH SKLAREY > Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word > Coconut Grove, FLorida > crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com > > ====================== > >I suppose the traditional male dominance or "power" factor is responsible > >for the fixed order of > > Fibber McGee and Molly > > George Burns and Gracie Allen > >though when duos like this are announced on stage, typically the master of > >ceremonies gives greater prosodic prominence to the second of the two. > > > > Rudy > > --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 10:06:09 +0100 From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: BBC Reith Lectures I just found out that tonight at 20:30 GMT, on Radio 4, the BBC Reith lectures will feature Jean Aitcheson speaking on attitudes toward language change and misconceptions about language standards. I looked at the World Service listings on the Web but don't see it there. I can't get much info from the BBC home page, which doesn't seem to let one email a question. Does anybody know how to find out if the World Service will rebroadcast this? Is anybody out there in a position to record the broadcast? Does anybody know if for example NPR or CBC will rebroadcast the lectures? Sounds like it will be an interesting talk. Dennis -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English office: 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street home: 217-384-1683 Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 11:56:14 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA> Subject: conjoined names i think we're just getting silly when we try to find linguistic reasons for conjoined names. while entertainers and new companies might decide on order according to what sounds nicer, there are going to be too many other absolutely-non-linguistic factors involved. for example, i grew up upstairs from parker, rayfield and murphy funeral home. the only reason it's called that is because murphy bought it from rayfield who bought it from parker (who founded it). same is going to be true of law firms and stock-broking (brokering?) companies. things like "sears and roebuck" might be determined by who put in more money. i do like the "straight wo/man" first theory in comedy. but it doesn't work for "laurel and hardy", but it might explain "the captain and tennille". in fact, that one goes against the "singer first" rule that i think was proposed--as might "ike and tina turner" (did ike sing?), and arguably "sonny and cher". so, i think when we get to people, the rules fall apart. score one for free will? lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 10:29:28 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: spitten image [was: The skinny on PROVE] Could "spitten image" have originated as a reference to ejaculate rather than to saliva/sputum? Seems as though I once heard someone offer that etymology. Later "transformations" of the term were needed for spitten images of mothers to occur. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 11:09:26 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Re: spitten image [was: The skinny on PROVE] Larry, Your (only slightly) speculative reconstruction makes very good sense. The earlier citations show that must be the OBJECT of , which makes the present participle more unlikely, given that the derivation (if one is still a transformational believer, which I find it plausible to be) would more likely require to be the underlying SUBJECT. The derivation from a passivized underlying structure makes much more likely sense. Rudy --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 13:44:02 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf Subject: Re: word of the year list Speaking ex officio (though not ex cathedra) for the American Dialect Society, I know of no objection to publicizing our Word of the Year vote; in fact, I have made some effort to get the Word out to the media and others interested. You'll find a press release with the results from 1995 and previous years in the ADS Web site at: http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/ADS/ You'll also find an even more detailed account of the 1995 choices, with complete list of candidates and votes in each category, in the January 1995 Newsletter of the ADS, which is going to the printer (at last) today. If you belong to ADS, expect your copy next week; if you don't, give me your s-mail address and I'll send you the issue and a membership invitation. - Allan Metcalf, ADS executive secretary ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 13:39:26 -0500 From: Donald Larmouth Subject: Re: "going medieval" I overheard a student say that another student was "going medieval." Since I teach an HEL course, I interrupted to find out what it meant and was told that it meant 'going psycho, berserk'. This is a new one for me. Any other instances? Any explanation for the connection to medieval? DWL ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 13:49:31 -0600 From: "Kathleen M. O'Neill" Subject: Re: "going medieval" >I overheard a student say that another student was "going medieval." Since I >teach an HEL course, I interrupted to find out what it meant and was told that >it meant 'going psycho, berserk'. This is a new one for me. Any other >instances? Any explanation for the connection to medieval? This was used in the movie "Pulp Fiction." ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I ; ;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu ; ;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::; ;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ; ;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ; ;Chicago, IL 60607-7025 ; ;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX ; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 14:40:55 MST From: Tom Uharriet Subject: Re: Five & Dime / Dime store > I presume there was a trade name of Woolworth's Five and Ten Cent > Store which > everyone called The Five and Ten. Well, almost everyone. Some called it The > Five and Dime. What did you call it where you are from? > > SETH SKLAREY In Los Angeles (60's & 70's), I heard "dime store" more than "five and dime." "Five and ten" was unheard of. With inflation, all of the above seemed to drop out of usage in the 70's. Now I'm seeing dollar stores popping up. We'll see if they catch on. Tom utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.shs.nebo.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 18:02:19 -0500 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: "going medieval" >>I overheard a student say that another student was "going medieval." Since I >>teach an HEL course, I interrupted to find out what it meant and was told that >>it meant 'going psycho, berserk'. This is a new one for me. Any other >>instances? Any explanation for the connection to medieval? > >This was used in the movie "Pulp Fiction." To be more precise, the character in question (criminal boss Marcellus Wallace) is swearing vengeance on the hillbilly Zed who...well, it's a long story. Anyway, Marcellus is promising to torture said hillbilly with boiling oil and other devices of that age, saying "I'm gonna get medieval on yo' ass." So the connection to medieval is explained in the movie, but since then, I've only heard it used in the sense that you heard, and only by people (like myself) who have seen the movie at least two or three times. I know of no usage of it either prior to the movie or by people who haven't seen the movie, so it's probably an invention of writer/director Quentin Tarantino. Stewart _____________________________________________ Stewart Allensworth Mason Technical Editor, Access Innovations, Inc. Albuquerque, New Mexico http://www.homeless.com/homepages/masons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ziavms.enmu.edu.html ***SONGS IT'S IMPOSSIBLE NOT TO DANCE TO*** 1. "Mardi Gras In New Orleans"--Fats Domino 2. "No One Knows My Plan"--They Might Be Giants 3. "When Lightning Starts"--The Three O'Clock 4. "International Colouring Contest"--Stereolab 5. "Radio Song"--R.E.M. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 17:25:42 -0600 From: "Kathleen M. O'Neill" Subject: Re: "going medieval" >>This was used in the movie "Pulp Fiction." > >To be more precise, the character in question (criminal boss Marcellus >Wallace) is swearing vengeance on the hillbilly Zed who...well, it's a long >story. Anyway, Marcellus is promising to torture said hillbilly with >boiling oil and other devices of that age, saying "I'm gonna get medieval on >yo' ass." So the connection to medieval is explained in the movie, but >since then, I've only heard it used in the sense that you heard, and only by >people (like myself) who have seen the movie at least two or three times. I >know of no usage of it either prior to the movie or by people who haven't >seen the movie, so it's probably an invention of writer/director Quentin >Tarantino. Thanks, Stewart -- after I sent that off, I went scampering about the web, looking for a site with a Pulp Fiction script, and couldn't find the aforementioned quote. But methinks you hit the nail on the proverbial head. =^] ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I ; ;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu ; ;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::; ;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ; ;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ; ;Chicago, IL 60607-7025 ; ;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX ; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 17:50:06 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Re: Five & Dime / Dime store I'm pretty sure we called it "the ten-cent store" in Mississippi in the early '50s. We might have called it "the five and ten" but never "the five and dime." Later "dime store" can along. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 17:07:34 -0600 From: Katherine Catmull Subject: Re: "going medieval" On Tue, 6 Feb 1996, Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote: [about "going medieval"] > > This was used in the movie "Pulp Fiction." Yes; but I believe the exact quote in "Pulp Fiction" was something like "I'm gonna get medieval on his ass"--nothing about "going." I could be wrong about that, but if I'm right, it would be an interesting conflation of the "Pulp Fiction" "gettin' medieval" quote and the more familiar "going postal" expression. Kate Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 18:34:48 -0700 From: William King Subject: Re: Sears & Roebuck; Montgomery Ward I only heard five and ten. We didn't rate a Woolworth's, but I've heard that used as a generic by downstate NY sophisticates. Sigh. Bill King ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 18:50:55 -0700 From: William King Subject: Re: Straight Wo/Man First? The two-syllabled, mild mannered Dickie (sp?) was the second Smothers Brother. Bill King (wfking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 22:38:36 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: Five & Dime / Dime store Woolworth's was 'the five and ten' in the early 50's in New York; I've heard five and dime since (including in the title of a nice Nanci Griffith song, "Love at the Five and Dime", on "Last of the True Believers"), and somehow process it as being more rural. Larry ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Feb 1996 to 6 Feb 1996 ********************************************** There are 32 messages totalling 682 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Five & Dime / Dime store (8) 2. conjoined names (2) 3. Sears & Roebuck; Montgomery Ward (2) 4. Anybody know of a reference on "birdcage" = schedule ? (2) 5. urgent help needed (4) 6. Redlining v. Blacklining 7. Montgomery Ward (5) 8. Straight Wo/Man First? 9. Pulp Fiction script (was: Re: "going medieval") 10. 5 & 10 11. Redlining v. Blacklining -Reply 12. Monkey Wards and Kame-apart (2) 13. Monkey Wards (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 22:07:42 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Re: Five & Dime / Dime store Natalie, Just to avoid the threat of a repetitious thread, wasn't this discussed at length last year, and if so, how would the information be accessed in the archive? Rudy --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 21:09:40 -0800 From: THOMAS CLARK Subject: Re: Five & Dime / Dime store Come back to the five and dime, Jimmy Dean, Jimmy Dean Is that the right title? Loved Cher. Cheers Thomas L. Clark 702/895-3473 University of Nevada, Las Vegas (89154-5011) tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu On Tue, 6 Feb 1996, Natalie Maynor wrote: > I'm pretty sure we called it "the ten-cent store" in Mississippi in the > early '50s. We might have called it "the five and ten" but never "the > five and dime." Later "dime store" can along. > --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 23:55:54 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: conjoined names Lynne complains: >i think we're just getting silly when we try to find linguistic >reasons for conjoined names. while entertainers and new companies >might decide on order according to what sounds nicer, there are going >to be too many other absolutely-non-linguistic factors involved. for >example, i grew up upstairs from parker, rayfield and murphy funeral >home. the only reason it's called that is because murphy bought it >from rayfield who bought it from parker (who founded it). same is >going to be true of law firms and stock-broking (brokering?) >companies. things like "sears and roebuck" might be determined by who >put in more money. Well, yes, but I'm not sure we're being MUCH sillier here than we are when we try to fing linguistic reasons for anything else; it is our occupational disease, after all, and who likes a null hypothesis? We do have to acknowledge that there are independent (e.g. temporal-priority) factors involved, and it's precisely when those factors are overridden or can be controlled for that the interesting linguistic variables emerge. >i do like the "straight wo/man" first theory in comedy. but it >doesn't work for "laurel and hardy", but it might explain "the >captain and tennille". in fact, that one goes against the "singer >first" rule that i think was proposed--as might "ike and tina turner" >(did ike sing?), and arguably "sonny and cher". And Peter, Paul, and Mary. And Delaney and Bonnie. And Donny and Marie. Male-before-female. >so, i think when we get to people, the rules fall apart. score one >for free will? To paraphrase the title of the Ike and Tina movie, What's Free Will Got to Do With It? I'm afraid the ordering votes tend to be weighted. L P.S. It was indeed Tom and Dick Smothers. Straight man second, but I wonder whether Tom, Dick & Harry may have played a role. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 00:51:41 -0500 From: BARBARA HILL HUDSON Subject: Re: Sears & Roebuck; Montgomery Ward We always used "five-and-ten" (50's and 60's) to mean Woolworth or Kresge's and sometime we would use the whole phrase in a statement like "That looks like it came from the five and ten cent store." Perhaps we were influenced by the song lyrics. (New Jersey and Chicago) Barbara bhhudson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]grove.iup.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 23:12:47 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Anybody know of a reference on "birdcage" = schedule ? Can anybody help with this inquiry? From: UACCIT::CTB "Carl Berkhout" 6-FEB-1996 23:06 To: UACCIT::RTROIKE Rudy-- I'm preparing to send a meaning of "birdcage" off to Jeffery Triggs at the OED. But I have found no written citation of it. I have heard it only in England and only twice, in Oxbridge circles, in the past 4 or 5 years. Pat Collinson, Simon Keynes, and I discussed the term at a Trinity College, Cambridge, dinner a couple of years ago, but we were all rather puzzled. Anyway, a "birdcage" is the piece of paper, with blocks of time marked out, that you are supposed to return to a secretary or to whomever to indicate, say, when you might be free for a meeting. You must draw an X or whatever in the blocks of time that you will not be free and you must then send your birdcage back to the secretary. The two usages that I heard were something like "Please complete this birdcage and return it as soon as possible." "I'd have rescheduled the meeting if you had sent me your birdcage on time." Does anyone on the ADS list know this usage? Can the Brits on this list help with comments or documentation? Carl ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 23:56:19 -0800 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey Subject: Re: Sears & Roebuck; Montgomery Ward Growing up in NY, I only remember it being called the five and ten or Woolworth's. (I also called it Sears and Rowboat as another example of a child's mishearing something more familiar.) Rima ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 05:14:48 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA> Subject: urgent help needed a few years ago, i read a story in the chronicle of higher ed about a study that was done in which university students listened to a chinese t.a. give a math lecture. those who saw the t.a. while listening to the lecture complained that they couldn't understand him/her because of a foreign accent. those who couldn't see the t.a. (got the lecture over a phone, i think), had no problem understanding and sometimes didn't realize that the lecturer was foreign. now, i told this story to a student, who incorporated it into her honours thesis, to which i said "sorry "lynne's anecdote" doesn't work as a bibliography entry. the thesis is due to the external examiner on friday--does anyone know where this study was published, by whom, etc.? i'd even be happy with a citation of the _chronicle_ article. if not, i'd be happy to hear about other studies in which appearance (i.e., racial/ethnic prejudice) determines the success or failure of communication. thanks in advance, lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 05:11:57 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Re: Five & Dime / Dime store > Natalie, > Just to avoid the threat of a repetitious thread, wasn't this > discussed at length last year, and if so, how would the information be > accessed in the archive? I think it was discussed. The archives are available via ftp, gopher, or the web. The ftp address is ftp.msstate.edu -- in pub/archives/ADS/List-Logs. Gopher is gopher. msstate.edu -- #3 on first menu, then #1. And the URL is http://www. msstate.edu/Archives/ADS/ -- to go straight to the logs, add ads-l.html at the end of that. How to search the archives for something specific depends on which method you're using to access them and on your system. Gopher's search mechanism is probably the easiest and most universal. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 07:21:18 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas, U of Tennessee" Subject: Re: Anybody know of a reference on "birdcage" = schedule ? I have never heard "birdcage" in the sense described. Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. | Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Dep't of English, UT, Knoxville | EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower | (423) 974-6965 | FAX (423) 974-6926 Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 | See Webpage at http://hamlet.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 09:15:23 -0500 From: "Winfield, Laurie" Subject: Redlining v. Blacklining Is there any authoritative explanation of the difference between the terms "redlining" and "blacklining" as they apply to documents? In passing, I have supposed that redlining came first, when docs were compared and marked in red by humans. Then software came along that does the same thing, but in black of course, which made the term redlining sound weird when used to describe it, hence perhaps a logical slide to blacklining. But is there anything else behind the lines, as it were? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 07:46:56 MST From: Tom Uharriet Subject: Montgomery Ward How wide-spread is the name, "Monkey Wards"? Have any of you heard of it? Tom utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.shs.nebo.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 06:57:25 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Re: Straight Wo/Man First? >> Maybe the rule is that the straight-man is listed first? >> > >Which Smothers Brother is said first? Oops, it's Tommy. > > >> Martin and Lewis >> Abbott & Costello >> or is it the other way around? >> Laurel & Hardy >> >> >> and how about those classics: >> >> Gallagher & Shean (Sheen?) >> Gilbert & Sullivan >> and the classic Groucho Marx law firm of >> Hungerdunger, Hungerdunger, Hungerdunger & McCormick >> >> and the slogans: >> Tippecanoe & Tyler Too! >> wing and a prayer >> praise the Lord and pass the ammunition >> the lame & the halt >> hops, rice and best barley malt >> >> And, what is the politically correct name for the "straight man" in a >> lesbian comedy team? >> >> >> SETH SKLAREY >> Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word >> Coconut Grove, FLorida >> crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com >> >> ====================== >> >I suppose the traditional male dominance or "power" factor is responsible >> >for the fixed order of >> > Fibber McGee and Molly >> > George Burns and Gracie Allen >> >though when duos like this are announced on stage, typically the master of >> >ceremonies gives greater prosodic prominence to the second of the two. >> > >> > Rudy >> > --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) >> > >> > >> > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 07:18:47 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Re: Five & Dime / Dime store >Woolworth's was 'the five and ten' in the early 50's in New York; I've heard >five and dime since (including in the title of a nice Nanci Griffith song, >"Love at the Five and Dime", on "Last of the True Believers"), and somehow >process it as being more rural. > >Larry > What?, the phrase five and dime or amorous activities connected with the store? Although my thoughts have often focused on sex, I can honestly say I have never had an amorous thought in a five and ten, and have never seen a five and ten employee who was ever the object of an amorous thought of mine. Maybe only rural people think about sex there? Seth the old Sans Skrit Philosopher crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com P.S. The name was shortened to Woolworths in the 70's ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:18:59 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Pulp Fiction script (was: Re: "going medieval") Kathleen M. O'Neill wrote: > Thanks, Stewart -- after I sent that off, > I went scampering about the web, looking > for a site with a Pulp Fiction script, > and couldn't find the aforementioned quote. > But methinks you hit the nail on the proverbial head. There are copies of the Pulp Fiction script littered about the Web, which include this quote (although in the script it's rendered "git [sic] Medieval," so if you're using a caps-sensitive browser you might have run into trouble). There are far too many copies of the script to list sites, but for those interested, try the great Altavista Web-search engine at: http://www.altavista.digital.com/ and search for "pulp fiction script". The passage in question is found midway through Chapter 3, "The Gold Watch." Yrs citationally, Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 08:19:59 -0700 From: Bruce Gelder Subject: Re: 5 & 10 It was five and dime for me, and my mother is the one I chiefly remember saying it (she was raised in Utah and Colorado and spent a few years living in Minneapolis). Seems like it was five and dime in Milton Bradley's Uncle Wiggley game, too, if I remember right. But "penny's" was the REAL thrift store for me (J.C. Penney, that is). ;-) Bruce Gelder ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 07:23:39 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Re: conjoined names Larry Horn wondered: > >P.S. It was indeed Tom and Dick Smothers. Straight man second, but I wonder >whether Tom, Dick & Harry may have played a role. > > There are too many puns I could think of about Dick first, but I'll leave them to your imagination. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:43:05 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: Montgomery Ward > > How wide-spread is the name, "Monkey Wards"? > Have any of you heard of it? We're preparing an entry for this for Volume II of the Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang. We have quite a bit of evidence going back to 1912. Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:59:39 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA> Subject: Re: Five & Dime / Dime store > P.S. The name was shortened to Woolworths in the 70's there was an article in _smithsonian_ magazine some time in 1994-5 about five-and-dimes that would help out in tracing origins. woolworth's, i think, was not the first one to refer to nickels and dimes in its name, so perhaps the regionality of "five and dime" vs. "five and 10" and whatever else might be determined by where which stores/chains were more prevalent and what they called themselves. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:57:01 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas, U of Tennessee" Subject: Re: Montgomery Ward I've heard "Monkey Wards" all my life (50+ years, starting in southeast TX). Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. | Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Dep't of English, UT, Knoxville | EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower | (423) 974-6965 | FAX (423) 974-6926 Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 | See Webpage at http://hamlet.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 10:59:57 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas, U of Tennessee" Subject: Re: Five & Dime / Dime store I finally remembered the name of the "ten cent store" from my early childhood: "Duke & Ayres" -- Gonzales, TX. Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. | Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Dep't of English, UT, Knoxville | EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower | (423) 974-6965 | FAX (423) 974-6926 Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 | See Webpage at http://hamlet.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 07:55:00 -0800 From: Allen Maberry Subject: Re: Montgomery Ward I have. (Oregon, 1950-74) Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, Tom Uharriet wrote: > How wide-spread is the name, "Monkey Wards"? > Have any of you heard of it? > > Tom > > utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.shs.nebo.edu > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 11:14:55 -0500 From: Elizabeth Durand Subject: Redlining v. Blacklining -Reply wasn't me--I think I was trying to differentiate between disease and syndrome. Or something like that. I like redline better, though--sounds meaner. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 08:49:50 -0800 From: Dan Moonhawk Alford Subject: Re: Monkey Wards and Kame-apart My two older girls growing up in Placerville (shopping in Sacramento) with a mom whose folks were from Iowa said "Monkey Wards" as well as 'Kame-apart' for K-Mart. On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, Tom Uharriet wrote: > How wide-spread is the name, "Monkey Wards"? > Have any of you heard of it? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 12:15:10 -0500 From: Benjamin Barrett Subject: Re: urgent help needed >Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 05:14:48 -0500 >From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA> >if not, i'd be happy to hear about other studies in which appearance >(i.e., racial/ethnic prejudice) determines the success or failure of >communication. Having lived in Japan as a Japanese-speaking Caucasian, I know lots of instances. The best one is from a book, though, and I believe it's true: A Japanese man was dressed up as a clown with a Caucasian woman in the car. He didn't know how to get somewhere, so he stopped to ask some high school students. He had a horrible time communicating with them, because they couldn't speak English and wouldn't even listen. This stuff happened all the time to me. If I were on the phone, I would be okay till I had to say my name. Then everything would go to hell. Once, somebody insisted on getting my personal name and not my company name (benjamin baretto) about three or four times before I gave up and told him I wasn't Japanese. Then, as always, there was an uncomfortable silence while he decided what he wanted to do (ie, give the phone to the person I wanted to talk to). I suppose you'll get a lot of letters like this, so I'll stop now. Benjamin Barrett ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Feb 1996 23:01:45 PST From: tom creswell Subject: Re: Five & Dime / Dime store I guess, as I have found no mention of it in the messages in this thread, that none of the ADS-L subscribers were alive, as I was, in the 20's and 30's. A popular song some time in the late 20's or early 30's was I Found a Million Dollar Baby in a Five and Ten Cent Store So much for love in a dime store. Tom Creswell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 11:45:54 -0800 From: Dan Moonhawk Alford Subject: Re: urgent help needed On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, Benjamin Barrett wrote: > A Japanese man was dressed up as a clown with a Caucasian woman in the car. > He didn't know how to get somewhere, so he stopped to ask some high school > students. He had a horrible time communicating with them, because they > couldn't speak English and wouldn't even listen. > Amazing! It's the flip side of something my coteacher Matt Bronson tells about the Caucasian who spoke fluent Japanese, but none of the Japanese people he spoke to could HEAR what he said as Japanese when he was in Japan -- until he gave a little bow just before he spoke: and that shifted what they were going to hear from the gibberish realm to the meaning realm! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 13:14:18 MST From: Tom Uharriet Subject: Monkey Wards Where, in 1912, did the phrase originate? Tom utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.shs.nebo.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 15:11:27 -0500 From: BARBARA HILL HUDSON Subject: Re: Five & Dime / Dime store Re: "I found a million dollar baby in a five and ten cents store" That is the song that I made reference to in my entry. When I referred to the lyrics of "the song," I didn't know that there was another song about love and the five and ten. Barbara bhhudson.grove.iup.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 12:18:27 -0800 From: William Seaburg Subject: Re: Monkey Wards and Kame-apart My 87 year old father (born and raised in Washington State) always used to tease us kids as we were growing up about shopping at the Monkey Wards catalogue store. Bill Seaburg On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote: > My two older girls growing up in Placerville (shopping in Sacramento) > with a mom whose folks were from Iowa said "Monkey Wards" as well as > 'Kame-apart' for K-Mart. > > On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, Tom Uharriet wrote: > > > How wide-spread is the name, "Monkey Wards"? > > Have any of you heard of it? > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 14:38:27 -0800 From: "Joseph P. McGowan" Subject: Re: Montgomery Ward Ramon Adams' _Cowboy Dictionary_ (1993 reprinting of his _Western Words_) lists `Monkey Ward cowboy' as: ``A cowboy wearing a mail-order outfit and having little or no range experience'' (199). Unfortunately, no citations in this work. J. McGowan English Univ. of San Diego ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 19:02:32 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: Monkey Wards > > Where, in 1912, did the phrase originate? Don't know that it originated in 1912, that's just the date of our first citation. It was from a collection of Truman's letters, I believe; I don't have the cite in front of me just now. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 19:09:09 -0500 From: Ron Rabin Subject: Re: urgent help needed As a Peace Corps volunteers in Turkey, my wife and I had many of those "I can't understand you because I know I can't understand you" experiences. These are most fun when you can witness the transition. I sat down next to a man on an intercity bus who was reading a newspaper. Without lowering the paper he greeted me and we exchanged ritual conversation. When we got to the point in the ritual where he asked, "Memleketiniz ne?" (where are you from--literally "what is your country" but meaning what part of Turkey), and I answered, "Americaliyim," the conversation was suddenly over. He physically jumped when I answered, so "deceived" had he been. Ron Rabin Buffalo State College ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Feb 1996 to 7 Feb 1996 ********************************************** There are 18 messages totalling 448 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Monkey Wards and Kame-apart 2. urgent help needed 3. Montgomery Ward (2) 4. expressions 5. Straight Wo/Man First? 6. Redlining v. Blacklining -Reply 7. Five & Dime / Dime store (6) 8. Monkey Wards and Kame-apart -Reply (3) 9. deceiving appearances 10. three threads ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 21:06:28 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Re: Monkey Wards and Kame-apart >My two older girls growing up in Placerville (shopping in Sacramento) >with a mom whose folks were from Iowa said "Monkey Wards" as well as >'Kame-apart' for K-Mart. > >On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, Tom Uharriet wrote: > >> How wide-spread is the name, "Monkey Wards"? >> Have any of you heard of it? > > How about Home Deposit? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 22:08:03 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Re: urgent help needed Lynne, I did not see the Chronicle story that I know, but there is a reference in one of Deborah Tannen's books (with a summary in the text and a bibliographic reference in the notes section) of a carefully controlled study done by some one in communications at Ohio State U. where students heard various recorded voices (including native English speakers) matched with different faces, and had a harder time understanding the voices when matched with a "foreign" face. If you don't have easy access to the book, let me know and I could look it up tomorrow. Still, it is valuable to have these first-hand accounts of experiences. Usually the stories are amusing but apochryphal, not very helpful for footnoting a claim. There is of course an enormous literature on the area of language attitudes associated with guises, in the work of Wallace Lambert, Dick Tucker, and Roger Shuy, inter alia. Rudy --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 00:59:42 -0500 From: Robert Swets Subject: Re: Montgomery Ward A-yup. In Michigan and in Florida. ******************************************************************************* __ __ COLOR ME ORANGE | | | | Voice: 954-782-4582; Fax: 954-782-4535 R. D. Swets (Archbishop Bob) | | | | Zion Lutheran School: 954-421-3146, 170 N.E. 18th Street ______| | | |______ Ext. 135; Fax: 954-421-4250 Pompano Beach, FL 33060 (________) (________) Ft. Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel: bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us 954-356-4635; Fax: 954-356-4676 ******************************************************************************* On Wed, 7 Feb 1996, Tom Uharriet wrote: > How wide-spread is the name, "Monkey Wards"? > Have any of you heard of it? > > Tom > > utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.shs.nebo.edu > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 02:17:16 -0500 From: Bob Haas Subject: Re: expressions Similarly a fairly well-known cultural icon (around here anyway) once said, "I don't chew my cabbage twicet, and you ain't heard the last of Ernest T. Bass." Bob On Wed, 31 Jan 1996, SETH SKLAREY wrote: > I had a friend who used to say: > > "I don't chew my cud twice." He was a city boy who had moved to rural south > Florida. > > Seth Sklarey > crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 02:37:36 -0500 From: Bob Haas Subject: Re: Straight Wo/Man First? I've always heard them referred to as Tom and Dick Smothers. >From a fan, Bob On Tue, 6 Feb 1996, Tom Uharriet wrote: > > Maybe the rule is that the straight-man is listed first? > > > > Which Smothers Brother is said first? > > > > > Martin and Lewis > > Abbott & Costello > > or is it the other way around? > > Laurel & Hardy > > > > > > and how about those classics: > > > > Gallagher & Shean (Sheen?) > > Gilbert & Sullivan > > and the classic Groucho Marx law firm of > > Hungerdunger, Hungerdunger, Hungerdunger & McCormick > > > > and the slogans: > > Tippecanoe & Tyler Too! > > wing and a prayer > > praise the Lord and pass the ammunition > > the lame & the halt > > hops, rice and best barley malt > > > > And, what is the politically correct name for the "straight man" in a > > lesbian comedy team? > > > > > > SETH SKLAREY > > Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word > > Coconut Grove, FLorida > > crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com > > > > ====================== > > >I suppose the traditional male dominance or "power" factor is responsible > > >for the fixed order of > > > Fibber McGee and Molly > > > George Burns and Gracie Allen > > >though when duos like this are announced on stage, typically the master of > > >ceremonies gives greater prosodic prominence to the second of the two. > > > > > > Rudy > > > --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 00:04:22 -0800 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey Subject: Re: Montgomery Ward >> >> How wide-spread is the name, "Monkey Wards"? >> Have any of you heard of it? > Hi Jesse, Never heard it used while still in NY, but have heard it regularly in the Bay Area. And what about Needless Markup for Neiman Marcus? Rima ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 00:04:28 -0800 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey Subject: Re: Redlining v. Blacklining -Reply >I like redline better, though--sounds meaner. I know redlining is used in the insurance/banking industry to discriminate against certain areas in loan accessibility, etc. I also think it's illegal (and definitely immoral - though perhaps not fattening). Don't know about blacklining. Rima ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 07:15:33 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: Five & Dime / Dime store Tom, I was alive through 85% of the 1930s, but I remember the "million dollar baby in the five and ten cent store" from the 1940s. Someone else will come on and say it was 1950s, I'm sure. For me those stores were always "dime stores" but I used those other terms when I knew interlocutors preferred the clumsier labels. That's the term my parents used; for a time when I was in the first grade my mother worked in the dime store downtown, Kress's. The contemporary dollar stores seem to me to be a different kind of enterprise than the salt-of-the-earth dime stores of the past. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 09:30:14 -0500 From: Molly Dickmeyer Subject: Re: Monkey Wards and Kame-apart -Reply >>> SETH SKLAREY 2/8/96, 12:06am >How about Home Deposit? I prefer "Home Despots" Molly dickmeye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]phl.lrpub.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 09:01:53 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: Five & Dime / Dime store > > Tom, I was alive through 85% of the 1930s, but I remember the "million > dollar baby in the five and ten cent store" from the 1940s. Someone else > will come on and say it was 1950s, I'm sure. I'm hardly in a position to say, since my _parents_ were only alive through 40% of the 1930s, but see _American Speech_ VII (April 1932) 250: Bing Crosby plaintively croons that he has "Found a Million Dollar Baby in the Five and Ten Cent Store." Doesn't say when the song was written, but before 1932 for sure. Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 11:31:29 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA> Subject: Re: Monkey Wards and Kame-apart -Reply i've heard target stores pronounced frenchly (tarzhay') in a couple of states, though i can't remember which ones (illinois was one, but i remember thinking it was a local, university-student thing til i heard someone somewhere else say it). undoubtedly, the french pronunciation indicates that it's a really classy place to shop. never heard a disparaging term for walmart, but i'd like to make one up. should be easy enough. tangentially, re: woolworth's. in south africa, and i believe england (that is, i believe that it's based in england), woolworth's is a very ritzy place to shop. someone saw my woolworth's plastic bag (which is called a "checkers" here, but that's another story) the other day and remarked "what are you doing, shopping at woolworth's on a lecturer's budget?!" don't know if this woolworth's is any relation to the 5&10, but the resemblance is only nominal. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 12:21:52 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA> Subject: deceiving appearances thanks to those who helped out on my plea for the source of a _chronic of higher ed_ article on perceptions of foreign t.a. accents. i've now discovered why i couldn't find it in the _chronicle_: the article was in _lingua franca_ (nov/dec 93). and instead of filing it under "language and racism", i'd filed it under phonology. it was just pure luck that today i was looking for phonology bulletin-board material and found it. the study was by donald rubin of univ. of georgia. for those who are interested, a study on race-effects in teacher perception of students' communication abilities (to turn the tables) by williams (1973) is discussed in fasold's _sociolinguistics of society_--so there are a couple of citations on prejudice-influences on comprehension. back on the anecdotal level, i've a chinese-american friend from the chicago suburbs whose mechanical engineering students at illinois write on her evaluations that her chinese accent is too strong (she is a monolingual english speaker). here, i found that if i apologize for my american accent, the ESL students complain that they can't understand me because of my accent. if i don't apologize, they don't realize that i'm not south african and do not check the "can't understand because of accent" box on my evaluation forms. (but even stranger are the numbers of native english speakers here who think i'm british, australian, german, or insist that i must be canadian because americans don't talk like me.) thanks everyone for your help. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 11:31:03 -0600 From: "Kathleen M. O'Neill" Subject: Re: Monkey Wards and Kame-apart -Reply Lynne spake thusly: >i've heard target stores pronounced frenchly (tarzhay') in a couple of >states, though i can't remember which ones (illinois was one, but i >remember thinking it was a local, university-student thing til i >heard someone somewhere else say it). undoubtedly, the french >pronunciation indicates that it's a really classy place to shop. I've heard Target pronounced "frenchly" (to borrow your useful adverb) in Illinois and Minnesota for a couple of years. It can either be plain ol' "Target" or "The Target Boutique." ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I ; ;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu ; ;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::; ;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ; ;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ; ;Chicago, IL 60607-7025 ; ;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX ; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 23:24:06 PST From: tom creswell Subject: Re: Five & Dime / Dime store I wonder if there is a database that includes popular music publication information, especially date of publication. Does anyone know of one? Tom Creswell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Feb 1996 23:26:15 PST From: tom creswell Subject: Re: Five & Dime / Dime store Don Lance, Perhaps you are right. I just know that I believe I knew it in my adolescence, that ended in the late 30's. I can remember only two brief snatches of the lyric: 1. She was selling china. 2. I forgot to watch the clock. Can you furnish any more? Tom ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 17:14:51 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: Five & Dime / Dime store > > I wonder if there is a database that includes popular music publication > information, especially date of publication. Does anyone know of one? If there's one that covers all of modern music history, I'd love to know about it. However, one useful source is the store CD-Now! ( http://www.cdnow.com ). They have 165,000 different CDs available, and the useful feature is that you can search based on group name, album title, or song title. They provide release dates for the albums, so it's pretty handy. I use it quite a bit. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 19:16:06 EST From: flanigan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: three threads Ohio University Electronic Communication Date: 08-Feb-1996 07:14pm EST To: Remote Addressee ( _mx%"ads-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu" ) From: Beverly Flanigan Dept: Linguistics FLANIGAN Tel No: Subject: three threads Color me rural. Growing up in Minnesota in the 40s and 50s, I heard my mother and her sisters regularly say "five and dime," "dime store," "Monkey Ward" (no -s), and "I don't chew my cabbage twice" (as an admonition to us not to ask her for repeats or to delay obeying some command). Interestingly, I don't recall hearing my father use these phrases--perhaps because men didn't frequent those stores as much as women did? Nor was he prone to aphorisms, unless they were in Swedish. --Beverly (Olson) Flanigan Received: 08-Feb-1996 07:16pm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 21:47:16 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Re: Five & Dime / Dime store Bagby Atwood in _The Regional Vocabulary of Texas_, p. 69, indicates the following percentages in his survey of the state: Racket store 47 Variety store 30 Five-and-ten 19 Dime store 13 Ten-cent store 3.3 Nickel store 2.6 He indicates that is declining, and is increasing (this was 1962). His map 115 p. 245 shows and both distributed pretty much throughout Texas, Oklahoma, Louisiana, and southern Arkansas. Both are shown in the Rio Grande Valley. In Brownsville, we had an old store, closed by 1950, which was labeled "Racket Store", but we had both a Kress's and a Woolworth's, oddly side by side on the main street, which I and everyone I can recall called . Are there no other published data to be cited, or is all we have the random recollections of ADS-Lers who choose to respond? --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Feb 1996 to 8 Feb 1996 ********************************************** There are 2 messages totalling 39 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Monkey Wards and lots more 2. Dollar stores ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 22:09:40 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Monkey Wards and lots more The following contribution comes from my colleague Dick Demers: Monkey Wards was the name my Dad used, and I can remember back to the early fifties for that one. He also had humorous names for all sorts of establishments in Portland, Oregon. Meier and Franks was Murphy and Finnegans. The internal revenue was infernal revenue, of course. Hubert Humphery was Preparation H. I've heard the following names for newscasters: Stoned Phillips, Tom Lockjaw, Dan Blather..and so on. I have heard twisted names for some Tucson places. Fed-Mart (when it existed) was Fed-Fart. Foley's is Folly's. I'll bet there are some real funny ones out there. Dick D ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 23:39:24 +0000 From: "Albert E. Krahn" Subject: Dollar stores Not only have "dollar" stores popped up, but some have already pooped out. In Milwaukee we have acquired a number of them in the past few years: Family Dollar Everything's a Dollar some locals: Dollar Bazar [sic] Dollar Deals and around the South Dollar General is popular. ------------- AKRAHN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IBM.NET or KRAHNA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US Al Krahn Milwaukee Area Technical College Milwaukee WI 53233 414/297-6519 fax 414/297-7990 home 414/476-4025 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Feb 1996 to 9 Feb 1996 ********************************************** There are 6 messages totalling 337 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. =====>>> *Fantastic* FREE offer I discovered on the 'net 2. Use of Ain't (3) 3. Ain't 4. 16 pages of news ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 8 Feb 1996 21:05:45 -1000 From: Melanie Tsai <2melanie[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GREATNET.UWCV.EDU> Subject: =====>>> *Fantastic* FREE offer I discovered on the 'net [SPAM DELETED HERE] ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 14:45:27 -0330 From: Trevor Porter Subject: Use of Ain't Hi folks, This is my first submission to this group, so I may as well introduce myself. Trevor Porter: I'm a graduate student studying Dialectology (Department of English Language and Literature) at Memorial University of Newfoundland. Anyway, I'm enjoying the discussions and on to the query: Is anyone aware of a study, completed or otherwise, on the use of "ain't" and its variants in English? Thanks ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 14:48:33 -0330 From: Trevor Porter Subject: Ain't Is anyone aware of a study on the uses of "ain't " and its variants in English? Trevor ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 13:48:44 -0600 From: "Salikoko S. Mufwene" Subject: Re: Use of Ain't In message Sat, 10 Feb 1996 14:45:27 -0330, Trevor Porter writes: > Is anyone aware of a study, completed or otherwise, on the use of > "ain't" and its variants in English? > In DIALECTS OF ENGLISH, edited by P. Trudgill & J.K. Chambers, there is an interesting study by Jenny Cheshire on AIN'T in urban British English dialects (1991, Longman). In FOCUS AND GRAMMATICAL RELATIONS IN CREOLES, ed. by Francis Byrne and Donald Winford (1993, John Benjamins), there is a paper by myself on negation and focus in Gullah. (I consider it a dialect of English, assuming that creoles are not separate languages to their native speakers.) AIN'T seems to be the functionally unmarked sentence- and VP-scope negator in Gullah. At least the facts might inform your comparison. Sali. ********************************************************************** Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu University of Chicago 312-702-8531; FAX: 312-702-9861 Department of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 ********************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 15:40:11 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf Subject: 16 pages of news Nine hundred copies of the (slightly belated) January issue of the Newsletter of the American Dialect Society were placed in the keeping of the US Postal Service at the main post office in Jacksonville, Illinois this day (Saturday, Jan. 10). That means that members of ADS should be getting their copies this week. For, as you all know, our newsletter goes by First Class mail, to bring you the news before it obsolesces. And the rest of you? If you have already let me know you'd like a copy, yours too will be on its way to you in the coming week, along with an invitation to membership. If you have not let me know - just send me your s-mail address and I'll send it to you. The issue has four kinds of news: 1. Calls for papers for all sorts of coming meetings; 2. Reports on what happened at our Dec. 1995 annual meeting; 3. News of publications, especially the excitement at DARE with Volume 3 in the offing; and 4. our special bonus, the 4000-word complete text of Virginia McDavid's talk at our Annual Luncheon: "Lines and Labels," an eyewitness look back at 50 years of dialect study. Don't miss it! - Allan Metcalf, ADS Executive Secretary ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Feb 1996 15:36:28 PST From: tom creswell Subject: Re: Use of Ain't An excellent summary of criticisms and history of _ain't_ can be found in pages 60-64 of the _Merriam Webster Dictionary of English Usage_, a work costing about $20.00 American and which every student of usage should have available. Tom Creswell ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Feb 1996 to 10 Feb 1996 *********************************************** There are 3 messages totalling 112 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. January ADS Newsletter aka "16 pages of news" 2. January ADS Newsletter aka "16 pages of news" (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 08:38:46 -0600 From: Samuel Jones Subject: Re: January ADS Newsletter aka "16 pages of news" Dear Mr. Metcalf! May I request a copy of the January issue of the ADS Newsletter be sent to: Dr. Samuel M. Jones Professor of Music and Latin American Studies University of Wisconsin-Madison 122 Shepard Terrace Madison, WI 53705-3614 along with your mentioned invitation to membership? I also teach phonetics. Thank you! ____________________________________________________________________________ DR. SAMUEL M. JONES INTERNET: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu Prof. of Music & Latin American Studies TELNET: samjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu 5434 Humanities Building FAX: 608 + 262-8876 (UW) 455 North Park Street __________________________________________ University of Wisconsin-Madison TELEPHONES: 608 + 263-1900 (UW-Lv. message) Madison, WI 53706-1483 * 608 + 263-1924 * (UW-Office -- * VOICE MAIL--Lv message) ____________________________________________________________________________ 122 Shepard Terrace TELEPHONES: 608 + 233-2150 (Home) Madison, WI 53705-3614 608 + 233-4748 (Home) ____________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 19:53:13 -0800 From: "Thomas L. Clark" Subject: Re: January ADS Newsletter aka "16 pages of news" Welcome aboard, Professor Jones. Noting that you are involved in both music and phonetics, I have a question I've been saving for some time. We all know that G.B.Shaw wrote PIGMALION with Professor Henry Sweet in mind, thinly disguised as Professor Henry Higgins. I would like to get your opinion on the film, directed by and starring Trevor Howard, in which he uses a xylophone to get Eliza's suprasegmentals, in the phrase, "How NICE of you to Let me Come." Does the xylophone work as a teaching tool for phonic study of dialect, and could any other musical instrument be used. Thanks, tlc Thomas L. Clark 702/895-3473 University of Nevada, Las Vegas (89154-5011) tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu On Sun, 11 Feb 1996, Samuel Jones wrote: > Dear Mr. Metcalf! > > May I request a copy of the January issue of the ADS Newsletter be sent to: > > Dr. Samuel M. Jones > Professor of Music and Latin American Studies > University of Wisconsin-Madison > 122 Shepard Terrace > Madison, WI 53705-3614 > > along with your mentioned invitation to membership? > > I also teach phonetics. > > Thank you! > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > DR. SAMUEL M. JONES INTERNET: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu > Prof. of Music & Latin American Studies TELNET: samjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu > 5434 Humanities Building FAX: 608 + 262-8876 (UW) > 455 North Park Street > __________________________________________ > University of Wisconsin-Madison TELEPHONES: 608 + 263-1900 (UW-Lv. message) > Madison, WI 53706-1483 * 608 + 263-1924 * (UW-Office -- > * VOICE MAIL--Lv > message) > ____________________________________________________________________________ > 122 Shepard Terrace TELEPHONES: 608 + 233-2150 (Home) > Madison, WI 53705-3614 608 + 233-4748 (Home) > ____________________________________________________________________________ > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Feb 1996 20:11:07 -0800 From: "Thomas L. Clark" Subject: Re: January ADS Newsletter aka "16 pages of news" Yes, I KNOW it's PYG... Thomas L. Clark 702/895-3473 University of Nevada, Las Vegas (89154-5011) tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Feb 1996 to 11 Feb 1996 ************************************************ There are 19 messages totalling 509 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Five & Dime / Dime store (2) 2. warp speed? (6) 3. Monkey Wards and lots more (2) 4. new word (2) 5. warp speed? -Reply (3) 6. NEW -- quantum leap (2) 7. More on warp speed 8. Segmentals, Suprasegmentals, & Xylophones (Huh? Howzat?)) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 10:37:52 +0000 From: "C.Thomas" Subject: Re: Five & Dime / Dime store As an English person I'm very interested to hear what "Five and Dime" means, as it always baffled me in that popular Bryan Adams song "Summer of '69": "Got my first real six-string Bought it at the Five and Dime Played it till my fingers bled Was the summer of '69" Not only did I not know what it meant but I wan't even sure if that was what the lyric actually said. And i know several other english people speak of this as the "line which nobody knows what it says." Charlotte ########################################################## Charlotte Thomas EGP95CMT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Sheffield.ac.uk CECTAL Dept. of English Language and Linguistics University of Sheffield Sheffield S10 2TN UK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 12:55:06 +0100 From: "E.W. Schneider" Subject: warp speed? Here's one for the younger generation amongst you folks out there. Snowboarders (and mountainbikers, I'm told) use the expression "warp speed" for "high speed". This is said to be a very recent expression; is it really? Does anybody have a reasonable idea as to an explanation, and the precise semantics, of this? Thanks for any responses! Edgar Edgar.Schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de University of Regensburg, Institut fuer Anglistik D-93040 Regensburg, Germany phone +-49-941-9433470 fax +-49-941-9433471 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 12:25:06 +0000 From: "C.Thomas" Subject: Re: warp speed? I have heard this expression in the 1987 film "Lost Boys" in relation to a car. Briefly, a bunch of kids are trying to escape from some vampires and jump into their car. one of them says "Burn rubber!" and the driver accidentally puts the car in reverse, almost resulting in the car goimg over the edge of a cliff. To this the driver says "Burn rubber does not mean warp speed!" This would suggest that it is not too recent a phrase (almost 10 years) and that it has been used about "modes of transport" other than snow boards and mountain bikes. I have no idea as to its origins though. Charlotte (I think my 22 years of age still class me as "youth"!) ########################################################## Charlotte Thomas EGP95CMT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Sheffield.ac.uk CECTAL Dept. of English Language and Linguistics University of Sheffield Sheffield S10 2TN UK ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 08:17:47 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA> Subject: Re: warp speed? charlotte says: > This would suggest that it is not too recent a phrase (almost 10 > years) and that it has been used about "modes of transport" other > than snow boards and mountain bikes. I have no idea as to its origins > though. i think the origin has to be _star trek_ (most likely the original, since the off-shoots more usually talk of going "warp 9" or "warp 5.2" instead of just "warp speed!"). lynne, who was again today accused of having a german accent --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 04:45:05 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Re: Monkey Wards and lots more In South Florida, Florida Power & Light is known as Florida Plunder & Loot, and Fort Lauderdale, which used to be known as Ft. Liquordale, is now known for its large gay population as Ft. La Te Da. A large series of senior citizen condo complexes officially named Century Village is known to the politicians who have to campaign among its 60, 70 & 80 year old occupants as Cemetery Village, and South Beach in Miami Beach is know known as SoBe. The Dade County (Miami) elevated railroad officially called Metrorail is also known as Metro-fail. Seth Sklarey Wittgenstein school of the Unwritten Word Coconut Grove, FL crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com >The following contribution comes from my colleague Dick Demers: > >Monkey Wards was the name my Dad used, and I can remember back to the >early fifties for that one. He also had humorous names for all sorts of >establishments in Portland, Oregon. Meier and Franks was Murphy and Finnegans. >The internal revenue was infernal revenue, of course. Hubert Humphery was >Preparation H. I've heard the following names for newscasters: Stoned >Phillips, Tom Lockjaw, Dan Blather..and so on. I have heard twisted names >for some Tucson places. Fed-Mart (when it existed) was Fed-Fart. Foley's >is Folly's. I'll bet there are some real funny ones out there. Dick D > > ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 09:11:12 -0500 From: "Gregory J. Pulliam" Subject: Re: warp speed? Warp speed is definitely from "Star Trek," and I think the show first aired in 1965--the Fall TV season. I suppose the Star Trek writers might have gotten in from another source, though. Greg Pulliam Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 10:15:03 EST From: David Bergdahl Subject: Re: warp speed? From: NAME: David Bergdahl FUNC: English TEL: (614) 593-2783 To: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX Warp speed is a science fiction term dating from the 1950's at least. Most contemporary use probably comes from popular tv shows e.g. Star Trek BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 09:14:43 -0500 From: "Gregory J. Pulliam" Subject: new word Has "netizen" been posted to the new word list yet? It appeared in Sunday's Chicago Tribune, with the derivation netizen=(inter)NET + (cit)IZEN. I forget the section it was in, but it was prominently boxed, so it'd be pretty easy to find--had I not already recycled the paper. Sorry. Greg Pulliam Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 09:25:43 -0600 From: Elizabeth Gregory Subject: Re: warp speed? -Reply I agree that the source seems to be _Star Trek_, in which the term "warp" is used to describe traveling at the speed of light--for example, traveling at Warp Factor 3 would be three times the speed of light (parallel to the use of "mach" in aviation to refer to flying at the speed of sound). Incidentally, if you're not moving at warp speed, your speed is described as "space normal." Elizabeth Gregory Assistant Professor and Extension Commmunications Specialist Department of Agricultural Communications Texas A&M University ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 10:40:17 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: new word Or, in full, "internetizen"--so battles between aol types and Compuserve types could be described as internetizen warfare. Larry ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- Has "netizen" been posted to the new word list yet? It appeared in Sunday's Chicago Tribune, with the derivation netizen=(inter)NET + (cit)IZEN. I forget the section it was in, but it was prominently boxed, so it'd be pretty easy to find--had I not already recycled the paper. Sorry. Greg Pulliam Illinois Institute of Technology Chicago ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 07:49:07 -0800 From: Dan Moonhawk Alford Subject: NEW -- quantum leap What are y'all out there hearing when people talk about quantum leaps? Although it would technically have to refer to the smallest imaginable leap ever imagined by humankind, if space were the issue, I keep hearing people use it to mean some HUGE difference; but maybe it's not a quantitative but a qualitative change that's being pointed to. So does 'quantum' now mean 'qualitative'? Cheers Moonhawk ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 08:59:03 PST From: tom creswell Subject: Re: warp speed? >X-POP3-Rcpt: creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dodo >Received: from uga.cc.uga.edu (uga.cc.uga.edu [128.192.1.5]) by dodo.crown.net (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id HAA10916 for ; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 07:08:56 -0600 >Message-Id: <199602121308.HAA10916[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dodo.crown.net> >Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU by uga.cc.uga.edu (IBM VM SMTP V2R3) > with BSMTP id 0753; Mon, 12 Feb 96 08:07:38 EST >Received: from UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (NJE origin LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA) by UGA.CC.UGA.EDU (LMail V1.2a/1.8a) with BSMTP id 8476; Mon, 12 Feb 1996 08:07:34 -0500 >Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 12:25:06 +0000 >Reply-To: American Dialect Society >Sender: American Dialect Society >From: "C.Thomas" >Subject: Re: warp speed? >Comments: To: ADS-L%UGA.CC.UGA.EDU[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EARN-RELAY.AC.UK >To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L > >I have heard this expression in the 1987 film "Lost Boys" in relation >to a car. Briefly, a bunch of kids are trying to escape from some >vampires and jump into their car. one of them says "Burn rubber!" and >the driver accidentally puts the car in reverse, almost resulting in >the car goimg over the edge of a cliff. To this the driver says "Burn >rubber does not mean warp speed!" > >This would suggest that it is not too recent a phrase (almost 10 >years) and that it has been used about "modes of transport" other >than snow boards and mountain bikes. I have no idea as to its origins >though. > >Charlotte (I think my 22 years of age still class me as "youth"!) > >########################################################## >Charlotte Thomas EGP95CMT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Sheffield.ac.uk >CECTAL >Dept. of English Language and Linguistics >University of Sheffield >Sheffield >S10 2TN >UK > >From -Random House Webster's College Dictionary_. 1992. warp speed, n. an extremely rapid rate of speed: _rumors traveling at warp speed_. [alluding to the use in science fiction of spatial or temporal warps to travel interstellar distances] warp (sense 11). a hypothetical eccentricity or discontinuity in the space-time continuum: _a space warp_. Tom Creswell______________________________________________________ creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]crown.net Morality is simply the 2601 Indian Boundary Rd. attitude we adopt toward . Chesterton, IN 46304 people we dislike. Phone:219/926 7018 -- Oscar Wilde 02/12/96 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 12:04:14 -0500 From: "Joan C. Cook" Subject: Re: NEW -- quantum leap On Mon, 12 Feb 1996, Dan Moonhawk Alford wrote: > What are y'all out there hearing when people talk about quantum leaps? > Although it would technically have to refer to the smallest imaginable > leap ever imagined by humankind, if space were the issue, I keep hearing > people use it to mean some HUGE difference; but maybe it's not a > quantitative but a qualitative change that's being pointed to. So does > 'quantum' now mean 'qualitative'? Reaching back to my undergraduate days, when I took more physics than was probably good for me, I can tell you what it's supposed to mean: A quantum is a discrete unit of energy, and a quantum jump is a transition from one energy level to another in a molecular or atomic system (think of the old model of electrons leaping to higher orbits). So it's not a huge difference or a qualitative one but a discrete one rather than gradual. So that's how I use it: "Children don't acquire their syntax gradually, they acquire it in quanta, so you'll see a kid who never used question syntax making that quantum jump and suddenly producing it pretty consistently." It'll be interesting to see how people who never had quantum mechanics use the phrase these days ... --Joan *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* Joan C. Cook Imagination is Department of Linguistics more important Georgetown University than knowledge. Washington, D.C., USA cookj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gusun.georgetown.edu --Albert Einstein *-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 13:07:06 -0500 From: Michael Clark Subject: Re: warp speed? -Reply In a message dated 96-02-12 10:31:47 EST, Elizabeth Gregory writes: >I agree that the source seems to be _Star Trek_, in which the term >"warp" is used to describe traveling at the speed of light--for >example, traveling at Warp Factor 3 would be three times the speed of >light (parallel to the use of "mach" in aviation to refer to flying at >the speed of sound) Actually, the formula for figuring warp speed in the _Star Trek_ sense of the word is W/F (warp factor) cubed times the speed of light... so travelling at "warp 2" would be 8 times the speed of light, and "warp three" would be 27 times the speed of light.. etc. etc. etc My source for this is the _Star Trek Star Fleet Technical Manual_, please don't think too ill of me for owning this. Michael/utlinguist[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 11:36:35 -0700 From: William King Subject: Re: Monkey Wards and lots more General Electric has been called Generous Electric with irony intended. The Delaware & Hudson RR, commonly called the D & H, was the Dirty and Hot. My father, whose stepfather worked on the railroad had a long list of such names for the major lines in the northeast, but I can only recall the local line. Bill King University of Arizona ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 14:00:08 -0500 From: "Dale F.Coye" Subject: More on warp speed I think every American in their thirties or forties must know what warp speed means. It was popularized in Star Trek starting in the late 60s and it's as much a part of our language as "beam me up" or the phrase "to boldly go where no man has gone before," which gave a legitimacy to the split infinitive that no antiquated usage guide will ever be able to destroy. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 16:17:40 -0600 From: "Kathleen M. O'Neill" Subject: Re: Five & Dime / Dime store Charlotte spake thusly: >"Got my first real six-string >Bought it at the Five and Dime >Played it till my fingers bled >Was the summer of '69" > >Not only did I not know what it meant but I wan't even sure if that >was what the lyric actually said. And i know several other english >people speak of this as the "line which nobody knows what it says." Actually, according to this web site: http://www.gel.ulaval.ca/~villem00/music/lyrics/Bryan_Adams/sofarsog.ood you got it right on the money. >[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ALBUM: So Far So Good >By Bryan Adams > >[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SONG: SUMMER OF '69 > >I got my first real six string >Bought it at the five and dime >Played it til my fingers bled >Was the summer of '69 ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I ; ;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu ; ;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::; ;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ; ;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ; ;Chicago, IL 60607-7025 ; ;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX ; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 20:23:12 -0600 From: Samuel Jones Subject: Re: Segmentals, Suprasegmentals, & Xylophones (Huh? Howzat?)) To: Thomas L. Clark Your question has not been forgotten, nor is it being ignored. Your inquiry is, to say the least, intriguing, and it piques my curiosity. I reckon I ought to sit a spell and think on it before attempting to reach a conclusion or two about any possibly-relevant similarities between 1) musical harmonics (the mathematical building blocks of all musical tones except "pure" tone generator sounds), along with musical tones' 2) amplitude or volume, duration, timbre or quality, and pitch, AND those aspects of speech involving more than just individual vowels or consonants (i.e.,SEGMENTALS), which are called SUPRASEGMENTALS, whose main characteristics are accent or stress, length, even juncture**, plus tone/pitch, and intonation, or the pattern of "pitch changes" that occurs in a sentence,such as Eliza Doolittle's line, "How NICE of You to Let me Come." (** JUNCTURE can mean either the mode of relationship or the manner of transition between two consecutive speech sounds.) As I re-read the above paragraph, which I am not altogether certain makes complete sense, even to me, I realize that the answer to your question may be far more complex and involved than I at first thought. Nonetheless, "Hope is but a word, but of all words, the only sentinel of permanence!" Research and investigating a challenge is a lot like peeling an onion - one takes off layer after layer of the problem, shedding a lot of tears in the process; and, at the end there is nothing left - but one is still shedding tears. smj ____________________________________________________________________________ DR. SAMUEL M. JONES INTERNET: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu Prof. of Music & Latin American Studies TELNET: samjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu 5434 Humanities Building FAX: 608 + 262-8876 (UW) 455 North Park Street __________________________________________ University of Wisconsin-Madison TELEPHONES: 608 + 263-1900 (UW-Lv. message) Madison, WI 53706-1483 * 608 + 263-1924 * (UW-Office - * VOICE MAIL--Lv message) ____________________________________________________________________________ "Pen-y-Bryn" TELEPHONES: 608 + 233-2150 (Home) 122 Shepard Terrace 608 + 233-4748 (Home) Madison, WI 53705-3614 ____________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Feb 1996 22:43:19 -0500 From: William Smith Subject: Re: warp speed? -Reply While 'warp speed' is apparently a product of _Star Trek_, I'ld like to point out the fact that when Stepen Hawking visited the _Star Trek_ set and saw the 'warp drive' unit, he commented, "I'm working on that."! Bill Smith ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Feb 1996 to 12 Feb 1996 ************************************************ There are 16 messages totalling 570 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. quantum leap (2) 2. Segmentals, Suprasegmentals, & Xylophones (Huh? Howzat?)) (3) 3. new word 4. new usage of an old word 5. warp speed? -Reply 6. Monkey Wards and Kame-apart -Reply (2) 7. subculture terms 8. More on warp speed (2) 9. To boldly split an infinitive or not 10. split infinitive 11. Using an instrument to teach intonation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 04:29:19 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA> Subject: quantum leap i suspect (again) that a television program is the popularizer of this phrase (that being "quantum leap")--at least among young americans. the show involved a physicist being flung from time/place to time/place and from body to body. (though i don't know how it was that this random physics-experiment accident happened only to drop him within the continental u.s.) anyhow, the show had something of a cult following (not unlike _star trek_) and is now in nightly re-runs on one of the cable networks. i strongly suspect that most people who use the phrase think _quantum_ just means "really big". lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 01:46:03 -0800 From: "Thomas L. Clark" Subject: Re: Segmentals, Suprasegmentals, & Xylophones (Huh? Howzat?)) Sorry. I assumed you realized I was discussing suprasegmentals (though my students thank you for the mini-lecture). We have been fooling around with sound spectrographic analyses of suprasegmentals and associating phonetic (not phonemic) features with instrumental sounds (such as, "How does a trumpet wail," or "Why does a pan pipe keen?") The xylophone of Prfessor Higgins (Professor Henry Sweet) was simply another query. Sorry to have taken your time. Cheers, tlc Thomas L. Clark 702/895-3473 University of Nevada, Las Vegas (89154-5011) tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu On Mon, 12 Feb 1996, Samuel Jones wrote: > To: Thomas L. Clark > > Your question has not been forgotten, nor is it being ignored. Your > inquiry is, to say the least, intriguing, and it piques my curiosity. > > I reckon I ought to sit a spell and think on it before attempting to reach > a conclusion or two about any possibly-relevant similarities between > > 1) musical harmonics (the mathematical building blocks of all musical tones > except "pure" tone generator sounds), along with musical tones' > > 2) amplitude or volume, duration, timbre or quality, and pitch, > > AND those aspects of speech involving more than just individual vowels or > consonants (i.e.,SEGMENTALS), which are called > > SUPRASEGMENTALS, whose main characteristics are accent or stress, length, > even juncture**, plus tone/pitch, and intonation, or the pattern of "pitch > changes" that occurs in a sentence,such as Eliza Doolittle's line, > > "How NICE of You to Let me Come." > > (** JUNCTURE can mean either the mode of relationship or the manner of > transition > between two consecutive speech sounds.) > > As I re-read the above paragraph, which I am not altogether certain makes > complete > sense, even to me, I realize that the answer to your question may be far more > complex and involved than I at first thought. Nonetheless, "Hope is but a word, > but of all words, the only sentinel of permanence!" > > Research and investigating a challenge is a lot like peeling an onion - one > takes > off layer after layer of the problem, shedding a lot of tears in the > process; and, > at the end there is nothing left - but one is still shedding tears. > > smj > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > DR. SAMUEL M. JONES INTERNET: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu > Prof. of Music & Latin American Studies TELNET: samjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu > 5434 Humanities Building FAX: 608 + 262-8876 (UW) > 455 North Park Street > __________________________________________ > University of Wisconsin-Madison TELEPHONES: 608 + 263-1900 (UW-Lv. message) > Madison, WI 53706-1483 * 608 + 263-1924 * (UW-Office - > * VOICE MAIL--Lv message) > > ____________________________________________________________________________ > "Pen-y-Bryn" TELEPHONES: 608 + 233-2150 (Home) > 122 Shepard Terrace 608 + 233-4748 (Home) > Madison, WI 53705-3614 > ____________________________________________________________________________ > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 08:11:29 -0600 From: Samuel Jones Subject: Re: Segmentals, Suprasegmentals, & Xylophones (Huh? Howzat?)) To: Thomas Clark Heavens to Betsy! My time was given freely and with gusto, although, obviously, I did not quite grasp what you were about (Wouldn't be the first time that I've jumped onto my "horse" and ridden off in about six different directions. Ha!). I regret I did not offer more of what you were "fooling around" for. Separating relevant fact from so-called irrelevant fascination is never easy, but, as so often is the case, in the irrelevant fascination lies discovery and, not surprisingly, genius. I should love to hear about the conclusions you and your students reach in this matter, if you would be so kind as to share them. I do have the feeling that I should be sitting in YOUR class. Cheers! smj >Sorry. I assumed you realized I was discussing suprasegmentals (though >my students thank you for the mini-lecture). We have been fooling around >with sound spectrographic analyses of suprasegmentals and associating >phonetic (not phonemic) features with instrumental sounds (such as, "How >does a trumpet wail," or "Why does a pan pipe keen?") > >The xylophone of Prfessor Higgins (Professor Henry Sweet) was simply >another query. Sorry to have taken your time. >Cheers, >tlc >Thomas L. Clark 702/895-3473 >University of Nevada, Las Vegas (89154-5011) >tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu > >On Mon, 12 Feb 1996, Samuel Jones wrote: > >> To: Thomas L. Clark >> >> Your question has not been forgotten, nor is it being ignored. Your >> inquiry is, to say the least, intriguing, and it piques my curiosity. >> >> I reckon I ought to sit a spell and think on it before attempting to reach >> a conclusion or two about any possibly-relevant similarities between >> >> 1) musical harmonics (the mathematical building blocks of all musical tones >> except "pure" tone generator sounds), along with musical tones' >> >> 2) amplitude or volume, duration, timbre or quality, and pitch, >> >> AND those aspects of speech involving more than just individual vowels or >> consonants (i.e.,SEGMENTALS), which are called >> >> SUPRASEGMENTALS, whose main characteristics are accent or stress, length, >> even juncture**, plus tone/pitch, and intonation, or the pattern of "pitch >> changes" that occurs in a sentence,such as Eliza Doolittle's line, >> >> "How NICE of You to Let me Come." >> >> (** JUNCTURE can mean either the mode of relationship or the manner of >> transition >> between two consecutive speech sounds.) >> >> As I re-read the above paragraph, which I am not altogether certain makes >> complete >> sense, even to me, I realize that the answer to your question may be far more >> complex and involved than I at first thought. Nonetheless, "Hope is but >>a word >, >> but of all words, the only sentinel of permanence!" >> >> Research and investigating a challenge is a lot like peeling an onion - one >> takes >> off layer after layer of the problem, shedding a lot of tears in the >> process; and, >> at the end there is nothing left - but one is still shedding tears. >> >> smj >> >> >> >> >> >> ____________________________________________________________________________ >> DR. SAMUEL M. JONES INTERNET: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu >> Prof. of Music & Latin American Studies TELNET: samjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu >> 5434 Humanities Building FAX: 608 + 262-8876 (UW) >> 455 North Park Street >> __________________________________________ >> University of Wisconsin-Madison TELEPHONES: 608 + 263-1900 (UW-Lv. message) >> Madison, WI 53706-1483 * 608 + 263-1924 * (UW-Office - >> * VOICE MAIL--Lv message) >> >> ____________________________________________________________________________ >> "Pen-y-Bryn" TELEPHONES: 608 + 233-2150 (Home) >> 122 Shepard Terrace 608 + 233-4748 (Home) >> Madison, WI 53705-3614 >> ____________________________________________________________________________ >> ____________________________________________________________________________ DR. SAMUEL M. JONES INTERNET: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu Prof. of Music & Latin American Studies TELNET: samjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu 5434 Humanities Building FAX: 608 + 262-8876 (UW) 455 North Park Street __________________________________________ University of Wisconsin-Madison TELEPHONES: 608 + 263-1900 (UW-Lv. message) Madison, WI 53706-1483 * 608 + 263-1924 * (UW-Office - * VOICE MAIL--Lv message) ____________________________________________________________________________ "Pen-y-Bryn" TELEPHONES: 608 + 233-2150 (Home) 122 Shepard Terrace 608 + 233-4748 (Home) Madison, WI 53705-3614 ____________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 09:11:53 CST From: Luanne von Schneidemesser Subject: Re: new word In Message Mon, 12 Feb 1996 09:14:43 -0500, "Gregory J. Pulliam" writes: >Has "netizen" been posted to the new word list yet? It appeared in Sunday's >Chicago Tribune, with the derivation netizen=(inter)NET + (cit)IZEN. I >forget the section it was in, but it was prominently boxed, so it'd be >pretty easy to find--had I not already recycled the paper. Sorry. >Greg Pulliam >Illinois Institute of Technology >Chicago So we are netizens of "cyburbia," as Andrew Shapiro of the Nation calls it. Luanne Luanne von Schneidemesser, (608) 263-2748 DARE, 6129 Helen C. White Hall, 600 North Park, Madison, WI 53706 lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 09:40:46 -0600 From: Katherine Catmull Subject: Re: Segmentals, Suprasegmentals, & Xylophones (Huh? Howzat?)) > "How NICE of You to Let me Come." This is profoundly unimportant but I can't stop myself from mentioning that the Higgins/Doolittle phrase is actually "How KIND of you to let me come." Kate Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 09:52:54 PST From: tom creswell Subject: Re: quantum leap Lynn. According to _Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary.Tenth Edition_, 1993. The earliest print occurrence recorded in their citation files of the use of _quantum_ to mean "large, significant" is 1942, considerably earlier than the TV show to which you refer. You might, of course, be right that the TV use accelerated the spread of its use in this sense Tom Creswell. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 11:48:29 EST From: Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer Subject: new usage of an old word This is a new, and I hope temporary, usage. Various people on the net have been using "exonerated" to mean "obscene words have been replaced by the names of conservative legislators." A typical message might include a phrase like "motherexoning" and then end with This text has been "exonerated" by performing certain textual substitutions in order to bring the text into compliance with the Communications Decency Act. The quote marks are appearing intermittently, suggesting that the writers are aware of the neologism and/or want us to think of it as clever. Vicki Rosenzweig vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com | rosenzweig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acm.org New York, NY ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 13:04:29 -0500 From: Bob Haas Subject: Re: warp speed? -Reply I admit, this will ID me as a real ST goob, but the warp scale is logarithmic or exponential in nature, not simply three times or four times. The way the ST producers and writers have set the scale up now places warp 9.5 as the limit for warp speed, warp 10 being infinite speed, i.e., being at all points in the universe at once. Bob On Mon, 12 Feb 1996, Elizabeth Gregory wrote: > I agree that the source seems to be _Star Trek_, in which the term > "warp" is used to describe traveling at the speed of light--for > example, traveling at Warp Factor 3 would be three times the speed of > light (parallel to the use of "mach" in aviation to refer to flying at > the speed of sound). Incidentally, if you're not moving at warp speed, > your speed is described as "space normal." > > Elizabeth Gregory > Assistant Professor and > Extension Commmunications Specialist > Department of Agricultural Communications > Texas A&M University > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 13:22:19 -0600 From: Miriam Meyers Subject: Re: Monkey Wards and Kame-apart -Reply We use the 'French' pronunciation of Target here in Minnesota (Target is Minnesota-based); I have also heard Targhetto for a local inner city Target (though that is a more confined pronunciation). >i've heard target stores pronounced frenchly (tarzhay') in a couple of >states, though i can't remember which ones (illinois was one, but i >remember thinking it was a local, university-student thing til i >heard someone somewhere else say it). undoubtedly, the french >pronunciation indicates that it's a really classy place to shop. > >never heard a disparaging term for walmart, but i'd like to make one >up. should be easy enough. > >tangentially, re: woolworth's. in south africa, and i believe >england (that is, i believe that it's based in england), woolworth's >is a very ritzy place to shop. someone saw my woolworth's plastic >bag (which is called a "checkers" here, but that's another story) >the other day and remarked "what are you doing, shopping at >woolworth's on a lecturer's budget?!" don't know if this >woolworth's is any relation to the 5&10, but the resemblance is only >nominal. > >lynne > >--------------------------------------------------------------------- >M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za >Department of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 >University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 >Johannesburg 2050 >SOUTH AFRICA Miriam Meyers Metropolitan State University mmeyers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msus1.msus.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 13:54:50 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" Subject: Re: subculture terms Can anyone tell me: Do the names "Zenobia" (Xenobia?) and "Jupiter" have any significance in lesbian subculture parlance? Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 14:35:37 -0600 From: Charles F Juengling Subject: Re: Monkey Wards and Kame-apart -Reply On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, Miriam Meyers wrote: > We use the 'French' pronunciation of Target here in Minnesota We do? The first time I heard anyone say `tar-zhay' was the day before yesterday. But the speaker is visiting from Maine and gives a French pronunciation of her own family name, where her son gives an American pronunciation. So, I thought, after I figured out what in the world she was talking about, that she had gone to 'Target' and was giving some odd pronunciation just to be funny. Since Target is such a high-class place to shop, I go there all the time. I have ever heard any of the employees not advertisements refer to it by any other name than 'Target.' Fritz Juengling St. Paul MN ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 16:31:25 -0500 From: Bob Haas Subject: Re: More on warp speed Using Dale's post as a starting point, I'd like to ask the question--why are split infinitives bad things? As a journalism major in my undergrad days, the rule was always cited (particularly by my News Editing professor) for us students, but never explained, "Because that's the way it is. Why do you want to know?" The reason I want to know why this is considered wrong is because we CAN split our constructed infinitives in English. Of course, one can't split a one-word infinitive in languages such as French or German or Latin, but the very fact that we can do such in English simply means that we have a little more flexibility in that particular aspect. I'd really like to know because I'd like a little more to tell my interested students than "Because . . . ." Bob, who was born to blithely ask what no etc., etc., etc. On Mon, 12 Feb 1996, Dale F.Coye wrote: > I think every American in their thirties or forties must know what warp > speed means. It was popularized in Star Trek starting in the late 60s and > it's as much a part of our language as "beam me up" or the phrase "to boldly > go where no man has gone before," which gave a legitimacy to the split > infinitive that no antiquated usage guide will ever be able to destroy. > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 17:12:17 -0500 From: "Salikoko S. Mufwene" Subject: Re: More on warp speed On Tuesday 2/13 Bob Haas writes: >The reason I want to know why this is considered wrong is because we CAN >split our constructed infinitives in English. Of course, one can't split >a one-word infinitive in languages such as French or German or Latin, but >the very fact that we can do such in English simply means that we have a >little more flexibility in that particular aspect. I'd really like to >know because I'd like a little more to tell my interested students than >"Because . . . ." My question is whether what is "split" is really the infinitive itself. After all, we do recognize infinitives used without "to", as in "I saw Jean LEAVE". Although the latter kind is called "bare infinitive", does being "bare" necessarily entail that the infinitive occur without a needed marker or could it also mean that the infinitive is intact but is missing a grammatical morpheme that is often seen with it? Could "split infinitive" also mean that the infinitive (still intact) is separated from that grammatical morpheme that often accompanies it? By the way, is it normal to speak of "split infinitive" in constructions such as "to not come" (as a variant of "not to come")? Sali. ****************************************************************************** Salikoko S. Mufwene s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu University of Chicago 312-702-8531; FAX 312-702-9861 Department of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 **************************************************************************** ** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 16:51:20 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: To boldly split an infinitive or not My understanding of the prohibition against "splitting an infinitive" is that it was enjoined by Dryden, the "father of modern English prose", on the grounds that French, whose speakers the English abjectly envied and sought to emulate in order to become "civilized", did not do it, so English should likewise do so if it were to be a civilized language. However, I don't have the reference for this. Prescriptive grammarians have always loved to have "rules" they could enforce on the lower orders of society, and this is one that has long appealed to them. My assumption is that the is taken as the sole "marker" of the infinitive, so that without it, as in the "bare infinitive" construction Sali mentioned, there would be nothing to split, and thus nothing to prohibit. It was Fowler, I believe, who divided the world into those who knew what a split infinitive was, and avoided it, those who did not know what a split infinitive was, and did not care, and those who knew, and discriminated in whether to split or not. --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 20:39:08 -0500 From: Jeutonne Brewer Subject: split infinitive As I remember, the prescriptive rule about the split infinitive, like the rule about double negatives and the rule proclaiming "he" as the generic pronoun, is part of a group of rules that were essentially grammarians' proclamations about what English use should be. The rules reflected the writers' preferences rather than stating a view based on the study of the structure and history of English. 18th century grammarians like Bishop Robert Lowth are best known for declaring such rules as gospel. However, the grammar of Joseph Priestley shows that there were also reasonable voices during that period. The rule states that nothing may be placed between the infinitive "to" and the bare verb form. "To not go" would thus be a split infinitive. Bare infinitives aren't condemned because there is to "to" preceding the form. The rule is based upon comparison with Latin, I think. Latin could not have split infinitives because the ad- was part of the verb form. English does things differently. As novelist Anthony Burgess wrote in his interesting grammar, Language Made Plain, prescriptive grammarians have often spanked the bottom of English because it was not Latin. I can provide a reference for a split infinitive discussion, but the information is at the office and I don't have it at hand. By the way, the ADS volume, Centennial Usage Studies, has several articles on handbooks, glossaries, dictionaries, etc. I think it is a good text for classroom use. ************************************************** * jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu * * Jeutonne P. Brewer * * Department of English * * University of North Carolina at Greensboro * * Greensboro, NC 17412 * * brewerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]iris.uncg.edu * * brewerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fagan.uncg.edu * * brewerj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nr.infi.net * ************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 20:31:20 +0000 From: "Albert E. Krahn" Subject: Re: Using an instrument to teach intonation You could luse a theremin to teach intonation. ------------- AKRAHN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IBM.NET or KRAHNA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MILWAUKEE.TEC.WI.US Al Krahn Milwaukee Area Technical College Milwaukee WI 53233 414/297-6519 fax 414/297-7990 home 414/476-4025 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Feb 1996 to 13 Feb 1996 ************************************************ There are 29 messages totalling 721 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. new word 2. two questions: boink and fish shanty (6) 3. Monkey Wards and Kame-apart -Reply 4. More on warp speed (2) 5. 6. Where's Wayne? (2) 7. split infinitives (2) 8. split infinitive (2) 9. boink/bonk 10. Dirty Jokes and Color Metaphors 11. two questions: boink and fish shanty 12. subculture terms 13. boink 14. two questions: boink and fish shan (4) 15. jump & boink 16. bonk 17. "NICE" and "KIND" and all That There Good Stuff ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 21:11:40 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Re: new word Or exiles from or to Cyberia -Seth Sklarey >In Message Mon, 12 Feb 1996 09:14:43 -0500, > "Gregory J. Pulliam" writes: > >>Has "netizen" been posted to the new word list yet? It appeared in Sunday's >>Chicago Tribune, with the derivation netizen=(inter)NET + (cit)IZEN. I >>forget the section it was in, but it was prominently boxed, so it'd be >>pretty easy to find--had I not already recycled the paper. Sorry. >>Greg Pulliam >>Illinois Institute of Technology >>Chicago > >So we are netizens of "cyburbia," as Andrew Shapiro of the Nation calls it. > >Luanne > > >Luanne von Schneidemesser, (608) 263-2748 >DARE, 6129 Helen C. White Hall, 600 North Park, Madison, WI 53706 >lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 22:14:16 -0700 From: William King Subject: two questions: boink and fish shanty 1). Two years ago some students told me that "to boink" was current slang meaning to have intercourse with, as in "John boinked Mary." Last week I heard it used meaning "to get rid of (x)." I assumed that this was connected with the onomatopoeic comic book use of old. What is current with boink? 2). Can a fish shanty be a structure other than that used for ice fishing? wfking[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Feb 1996 23:39:16 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: Monkey Wards and Kame-apart -Reply After hearing others refer to their favorite haberdashery as Jacques Pen-ne' I, without hearing it from others, used 'tar-zhay' as an "appropriate" name for the store down at the end of the west wing of the mall. An invented name panting to be invented over and over. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 03:25:04 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA> Subject: Re: More on warp speed > Using Dale's post as a starting point, I'd like to ask the question--why > are split infinitives bad things? As a journalism major in my undergrad > days, the rule was always cited (particularly by my News Editing > professor) for us students, but never explained, "Because that's the way > it is. Why do you want to know?" my understanding is that they're proscribed b/c english (prescriptive) grammar teaching was (historically) based on the premise that latin was a perfect and logical language. because you can't do it in latin (so goes the logic), you shouldn't do it in english. i think there are other prescriptive rules with the same source. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 03:29:17 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA> Subject: Re: two questions: boink and fish shanty > 1). Two years ago some students told me that "to boink" was current slang > meaning to have intercourse with, as in "John boinked Mary." Last week > I heard it used meaning "to get rid of (x)." I assumed that this was > connected with the onomatopoeic comic book use of old. What is current > with boink? i use it to refer to having sex. have no ideas about fish shanties. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 01:39:14 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Re: More on warp speed The idea that "traditional grammarians" slavishly followed Latin grammar is part of a myth that Charles Fries promulgated, or perpetuated from his mentor Leonard -- a topic begging to be researched. They have been given a bad rap for years, going back to Bloomfield. The myth belongs in somewhat the same category as the 23 Eskimo words for "snow". I have an article about this in the Archibald Hill festschrift, if you want some details. Lindley Murray, the "father of school grammar", was forced to Latinize his grammar by school teachers, who were dissatisfied with his attempt to portray English in a more structuralist fashion, on its own terms. It is always a good idea to check your sources before attacking them. --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 04:44:53 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: This morning I coined the word "internetional" for things related to the internet and its world encompassing nature, and I'm opening the forum to definitions. Also I'd like to have some added definitions for "webster," one who works with the world wide web. Also I think we could use some synonyms for "webmaster" or "webmeister." The internet and world wide web are a wonderful opportunity for fertile minds to be creative. I find myself referring to snail-mail as "escargot." What is the cyberspace word for couch potato (one who spends an inordinate amount of time before the computer)? I've heard it but forgotten. Nerds and techies have also spawned some synonyms I'd like to hear about. And surely there must be some wonderful terms for cybersex addicts. Cyboinks just came into my silly head. For those who become frustrated with the concept we could have "SIGHberspace." Time to PUNt. Seth Sklarey Wittgenstein School of the Fertile Imagination Coconut Grove, FL crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 04:46:49 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Where's Wayne? What ever happened to Wayne Glowka? Is he OK? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 09:53:24 +0000 From: "E. W. Gilman" Subject: split infinitives The split infinitive was discovered and named in the 19th century; Lowth and Priestley and Murray were not aware of its existence. I don't know who made the discovery. Visser says that Goold Brown's 1851 Grammar of English Grammars has something on the subject, and if so, it would be the earliest of which I am aware. I have not, however, been able to find it in our 10th edition of the book, and Visser gave no clue as to page or section. There is, incidentally, a modestly enlightening article on the subject in our Merriam-Webster's Dictionary of English Usage (plug, plug). The non-Latin practice that Dryden expunged in revising his works was, I believe, the terminal preposition, that other hardy perennial of the usage trade. Can anyone enlighten me as to what the Archibald Hill festschrift Rudy Troike refers to is? I'd like to read his article, if I can lay hold of a copy. I'm particularly interested in the forces applied to Lindley Murray, whose book is almost entirely a compendium of what Lowth, Priestley, and two or three other earlier grammarians had written. E.W.Gilman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 06:54:45 PST From: "//www.usa.net/~ague" Subject: Re: split infinitive Regarding the split infinitive, it's number 7 in the following list of Tips for Proper English. (I got this list from another source. One of the rules doesn't seem to violate itself. Which one?) -- Jim File Description: 40 Tips for Proper English 1. Avoid alliteration. Always. 2. Never use a long word when a diminutive one will do. 4. Employ the vernacular. 5. Eschew ampersands & abbreviations, etc. 6. Parenthetical remarks (however relevant) are unnecessary. 7. Remember to never split an infinitive. 8. Contractions aren't necessary. 9. Foreign words and phrases are not apropos. 10. One should never generalize. 11. Eliminate quotations. As Ralph Waldo Emerson said, "I hate quotations. Tell me what you know." 12. Comparisons are as bad as cliches. 13. Don't be redundant; don't use more words than necessary; it's highly superfluous. 14. Be more or less specific. 15. Understatement is always best. 16. One-word sentences? Eliminate. 17. Analogies in writing are like feathers on a snake. 18. The passive voice is to be avoided. 19. Go around the barn at high noon to avoid colloquialisms. 20. Even if a mixed metaphor sings, it should be derailed. 21. Who needs rhetorical questions? 22. Exaggeration is a billion times worse than understatement. 23. Don't never use a double negation. 24. capitalize every sentence and remember always end it with point 25. Do not put statements in the negative form. 26. Verbs have to agree with their subjects. 27. Proofread carefully to see if you words out. 28. If you reread your work, you can find on rereading a great deal of repetition can be avoided by rereading and editing. 29. A writer must not shift your point of view. 30. And don't start a sentence with a conjunction. (Remember, too, a preposition is a terrible word to end a sentence with.) 31. Don't overuse exclamation marks!! 32. Place pronouns as close as possible, especially in long sentences, as of 10 or more words, to their antecedents. 33. Writing carefully, dangling participles must be avoided. 34. If any word is improper at the end of a sentence, a linking verb is. 35. Take the bull by the hand and avoid mixing metaphors. 36. Avoid trendy locutions that sound flaky. 37. Everyone should be careful to use a singular pronoun with singular nouns in their writing. 38. Always pick on the correct idiom. 39. The adverb always follows the verb. 40. Last but not least, avoid cliches like the plague; They're old hat; seek viable alternatives. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:10:23 +0000 From: "C.Thomas" Subject: boink/bonk Bill asked: > 1). Two years ago some students told me that "to boink" was current slang > meaning to have intercourse with, as in "John boinked Mary." Last week > I heard it used meaning "to get rid of (x)." I assumed that this was > connected with the onomatopoeic comic book use of old. What is current > with boink? In England we use the term "bonk" (not boink) to refer to intercourse, as a sort of permissable, comical euphemism. I've been told several times that it originated as a neologism from the English (Birmingham) stand-up comedian Jasper Carrott, before the tabloids picked it up, and consequently it entered more general usage. However, the on-line OED cites the earliest recorded usage as being in 1975 in "Foul" , which I strongly suspect would be before Jasper Carrott was on the scene. Also, the OED doesn't have any entries for "boink". Perhaps Webster's does? As for the fish thing- never heard of it. Charlotte ########################################################## Charlotte Thomas EGP95CMT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Sheffield.ac.uk CECTAL Dept. of English Language and Linguistics University of Sheffield Sheffield S10 2TN UK ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 08:32:00 CST From: Tom Murray Subject: Dirty Jokes and Color Metaphors A colleague asked me about this yesterday: Several cultures around the world r efer to dirty jokes as "off color," yet there is no general agreement as to wha t "color" such jokes are. In the United States, they are or used to be called "blue"; in Spain, they are "red" (maybe "yellow"; my colleague's not sure); in the Orient, they are "yellow" (maybe "red"). Can anyone speak to this phenomen on? Thanks in advance for any insights you may have. --Tom Murray ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 11:58:33 -0330 From: Trevor Porter Subject: Re: two questions: boink and fish shanty I think that "boink" is used in some recent mob movie (Casino?) meaning to kill someone. Trevor ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 09:31:25 -0600 From: "Kathleen M. O'Neill" Subject: Re: subculture terms I forwarded this to a few lists, and this is the only response I've gotten so far, but it is at least, a response. =^] ----Begin Forwarded Message---- >Return-Path: >Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 01:32:59 -0500 >Reply-To: Bisexual Women's Discussion List >Sender: Bisexual Women's Discussion List >Subject: Re: subculture terms >To: Multiple recipients of list BIFEM-L > >> > >Do the names "Zenobia" (Xenobia?) and "Jupiter" have any significance in >> > >lesbian subculture parlance? > >Zenobia is a brand of Pistacio nuts. Jupiter is a planet. >These are significant if you are an astronaut or a gourmet (not >necessarily in that order). Of course, we all know that you don't have to >be a gourmet to enjoy pistacio nuts, but then you don't really have to be a >lesbian either. >Emily, up way too late. > ----End Forwarded Message---- ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I ; ;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu ; ;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::; ;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ; ;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ; ;Chicago, IL 60607-7025 ; ;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX ; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:53:14 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf Subject: Re: Where's Wayne? I believe that Wayne, like at least one other erstwhile major contributor to ADS-L, has signed off the list, at least for a while. The reason is busy-ness. Needing to leave an enjoyable conversation, in order to get work done. This is a problem with improved communication. You can spend the whole day chatting. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:38:24 -0500 From: Donald Larmouth Subject: Re: two questions: boink and fish shanty The term "fish shanty" has two meanings in my experience. One is an ice-fishing shanty, either for fishing with hook and line or for spearing (e. g., sturgeon spearing on Lake Winnebago). The other meaning refers to a commercial fisherman's cleaning and packing house. I believe this term is still used among the few remaining commercial fishermen on the North Shore of Lake Superior in communities such as Knife River and Grand Marais. I know that in the late 1950's Mel Bugge and the Mattson family referred to their fish-processing buildings as fish shanties, as did Rudy Carlson in Grand Marais. I believe I also heard Dick Eckel use this term in Grand Marais, but it may have been his brother Tommy. At one time, these people harvested lake trout, lake whitefish, and "bluefin" herring (a large lake cisco), but now their enterprise is pretty much restricted to harvesting ciscoes and herring, and some of them import lake trout from Canada for smoking. The term "fish house" is also current in the same region, I believe. For what it may be worth, I've overheard both bonk and boink in reference to sexual intercourse here in Green Bay. DWL ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 08:45:09 -0800 From: Allen Maberry Subject: Re: two questions: boink and fish shanty I'm afraid I'm still using it in the old onomotopoetic comic book sense. Perhaps I should be more careful. My grandfather refered to "fishing shacks" set up along the river bank (in his case, the Columbia), to provide shelter from the rain and to keep the playing cards dry while waiting for fish to bite. I've never heard them called "shanties". Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu On Wed, 14 Feb 1996, M. Lynne Murphy wrote: > > 1). Two years ago some students told me that "to boink" was current slang > > meaning to have intercourse with, as in "John boinked Mary." Last week > > I heard it used meaning "to get rid of (x)." I assumed that this was > > connected with the onomatopoeic comic book use of old. What is current > > with boink? > > i use it to refer to having sex. have no ideas about fish shanties. > > lynne > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za > Department of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 > University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 > Johannesburg 2050 > SOUTH AFRICA > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:59:02 -0600 From: "Kathleen M. O'Neill" Subject: Re: two questions: boink and fish shanty I checked the Web, and found this site: http://www.ufsia.ac.be/~skimo/jargon/boink.html which contained the following entry: boink /boynk/ [Usenet: variously ascribed to the TV series "Cheers" "Moonlighting", and "Soap"] 1. To have sex with; compare bounce, sense 3. (This is mainstream slang.) In Commonwealth hackish the variant `bonk' is more common. 2. After the original Peter Korn `Boinkon' Usenet parties, used for almost any net social gathering, e.g., Miniboink, a small boink held by Nancy Gillett in 1988; Minniboink, a Boinkcon in Minnesota in 1989; Humpdayboinks, Wednesday get-togethers held in the San Francisco Bay Area. Compare [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]-party. 3. Var of `bonk'; see bonk/oif. ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I ; ;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu ; ;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::; ;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ; ;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ; ;Chicago, IL 60607-7025 ; ;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX ; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 09:05:35 PST From: "//www.usa.net/~ague" Subject: Re: two questions: boink and fish shanty My first recollection of "boink" used excessively was from the Bruce Willis character in the former TV series with Cybill Shepard, Moonlighting(?). -- Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 10:18:22 MST From: Tom Uharriet Subject: boink > > What is current with boink? > > i use it to refer to having sex. > > lynne I'm not sure; but it seems like I heard it used that way on the series MOONLIGHTING a few years ago. Tom utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.shs.nebo.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 12:52:34 -0500 From: "Winfield, Laurie" Subject: Re: two questions: boink and fish shan Oh my gosh. I've always used bonk in to mean hitting your head. "Don't bonk your head on the doorway" or "They bonked heads when they bent down to clean up the mess together." My mother always used bonk in this sense and in no other context. I always wondered why my mother-in-law did a double take when I told her that my little daughter got bonked on the head!! Does anyone else have this usage? Please? ---------- From: American Dialect Society To: Multiple recipients of list ADS Subject: Re: two questions: boink and fish shan Date: Wednesday, February 14, 1996 12:25PM I checked the Web, and found this site: http://www.ufsia.ac.be/~skimo/jargon/boink.html which contained the following entry: boink /boynk/ [Usenet: variously ascribed to the TV series "Cheers" "Moonlighting", and "Soap"] 1. To have sex with; compare bounce, sense 3. (This is mainstream slang.) In Commonwealth hackish the variant `bonk' is more common. 2. After the original Peter Korn `Boinkon' Usenet parties, used for almost any net social gathering, e.g., Miniboink, a small boink held by Nancy Gillett in 1988; Minniboink, a Boinkcon in Minnesota in 1989; Humpdayboinks, Wednesday get-togethers held in the San Francisco Bay Area. Compare [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]-party. 3. Var of `bonk'; see bonk/oif. ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I ; ;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu ; ;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::; ;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ; ;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ; ;Chicago, IL 60607-7025 ; ;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX ; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:55:24 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: two questions: boink and fish shan Not bonk or boink, but, in that vein... Is "jump one's bones" at all current? thanks, Beth Simon simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu English & Linguistics IPFW ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 12:48:41 -0500 From: "Dale F.Coye" Subject: Re: split infinitives For a definitive discussion see Merriam Webster's Dictionary of English Usage. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:44:19 MST From: Tom Uharriet Subject: jump & boink > Not bonk or boink, but, in that vein... > > Is "jump one's bones" at all current? > > > thanks, > Beth Simon Aside from still saying it myself, I haven't heard it since 1988 in Washington State. Tom utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.shs.nebo.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 14:46:55 MST From: Tom Uharriet Subject: bonk I only use bonk as a verb meaning bumb. The baby bonked his head on the wall. Tom utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.shs.nebo.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 20:52:58 EST From: David Bergdahl Subject: Re: split infinitive From: NAME: David Bergdahl FUNC: English TEL: (614) 593-2783 To: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX Devotees of the split infinitive rule should read an old College English article by Peter M. Neely, "To Split or to Not Split" vol 40 #4 (Dec '78), 402-406. In the article Neely takes the rule and generalizes to "[a] verb should be generated in its entirety, whether it be an infinitive or any other compound" (403)--and what fun things result, illuminating the illustrious rule. Heartily recommended. BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 21:56:58 EST From: David Bergdahl Subject: Re: two questions: boink and fish shan From: NAME: David Bergdahl FUNC: English TEL: (614) 593-2783 To: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX Kathleen-- For the use of "bonk" to refer to bumping into someone/-thing cf. the NYC usage of "bunk" with the same meaning. BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 23:37:05 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: two questions: boink and fish shan According to evidence from undergraduate informant judgments and the campus papers (as of today's Valentine Day issue), the verbs boink and bonk are both alive and well in the venereal sense at Yale, and of course bonk retains its innocent meaning too, with the context presumably disambiguating the bonk in the head from the bonk in, well, you get the idea. But I've always assumed the New Yorker's "bunk" to which David Bergdahl refers-- >For the use of "bonk" to refer to bumping into someone/-thing >cf. the >NYC usage of "bunk" with the same meaning. --is indeed a "corruption" (to use the linguistically incorrect term) of "bump". Can we assume an evolution of the form bump>bunk>bonk, or is this just a case of convergent development? --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 22:56:33 -0600 From: Samuel Jones Subject: Re: "NICE" and "KIND" and all That There Good Stuff Thank you kindly, ma'am. I'm right proud you spoke up! I sit corrected. Eventually, after it would have been too late, I should probably have consulted the dialogue. Nos da smjones >> "How NICE of You to Let me Come." > >This is profoundly unimportant but I can't stop myself from mentioning >that the Higgins/Doolittle phrase is actually > >"How KIND of you to let me come." > >Kate Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com ____________________________________________________________________________ DR. SAMUEL M. JONES INTERNET: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu Prof. of Music & Latin American Studies TELNET: samjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu 5434 Humanities Building FAX: 608 + 262-8876 (UW) 455 North Park Street __________________________________________ University of Wisconsin-Madison TELEPHONES: 608 + 263-1900 (UW-Lv. message) Madison, WI 53706-1483 * 608 + 263-1924 * (UW-Office - * VOICE MAIL--Lv message) ____________________________________________________________________________ "Pen-y-Bryn" TELEPHONES: 608 + 233-2150 (Home) 122 Shepard Terrace 608 + 233-4748 (Home) Madison, WI 53705-3614 ____________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Feb 1996 to 14 Feb 1996 ************************************************ There are 7 messages totalling 172 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. two questions: boink and fish shan (2) 2. A.A. Hill Festschrift reference re traditional grammarians 3. Dirty Jokes and Color Metaphors 4. bunc[ombe] (2) 5. overheard in the elevator ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 00:13:50 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: two questions: boink and fish shan In New York, isn't it mostly the bunk? beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 23:23:43 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: A.A. Hill Festschrift reference re traditional grammarians For those interested, the Arch Hill Festschrift reference is: Linguistic and Literary Studies in Honor of Archibald A. Hill. Mohammad Ali Jazayery, Edgar C. Polome, and Werner Winter, eds. Vol. I: General and Theoretical Linguistics. [there are 3 vols.] Lisse: Peter de Ridder Press, 1976. The article in question is "Lest the wheel be too oft re-invented: Towards a reassessment of the intellectual history of linguistics", pp. 297- 303. It includes a "revisionist" consideration of the work of traditional grammarians, arguing that Charles Fries created a "devil image" of them, which was accepted within the linguistics profession and repeated from one book to another. When I was a grad student, this was the received view, with no audible dissent (one, by J.R. Hulbert in PMLA in 1947, was ignored, probably because he was a "philologist" -- a dirty word at the time). Only when a teacher in one of my classes gave me an 1835 grammar she had picked up at a yard sale, and I started to read it, did I discover that things were very different from what I had been taught. Because of the disparagement of these grammarians, people have been discouraged from reading them, either to avoid contamination or because they were presumably totally benighted. It is also interesting to discover that sentence diagramming was an American invention, by practical-minded teachers seeking a way to make grammatical structure visible (one of the first visual aids), instead of going through the catechism of "parsing", still used in the rest of the English-speaking world (including Canada) and in other countries for Spanish, etc. I argue that Chomsky would likely not have come up with his tree- diagrams if he had grown up in another country. --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 08:26:58 +0100 From: Fuencisla Garcia-Bermejo Giner Subject: Re: Dirty Jokes and Color Metaphors In Spain such jokes are referred to as "green". A dirty old man is "a green old man". We get "yellow with envy" not "green with envy"."Black humour" refers to jokes about death (very frequent in our culture). If one gets black, it means one gets very angry, however. One gets red when one is ashamed. Maria F. Garcia-Bermejo Giner University of Salamanca, Spain. More[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gugu.usal.es ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 03:51:08 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Re: two questions: boink and fish shan My sister was the only one I ever heard say "bunk your head" meaning hit your head. New Jersey. She was born 1925. >Oh my gosh. I've always used bonk in to mean hitting your head. "Don't >bonk your head on the doorway" or "They bonked heads when they bent down to >clean up the mess together." My mother always used bonk in this sense and >in no other context. I always wondered why my mother-in-law did a double >take when I told her that my little daughter got bonked on the head!! > >Does anyone else have this usage? Please? > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:58:46 EST From: David Bergdahl Subject: bunc[ombe] Ohio University Electronic Communication Date: 15-Feb-1996 12:58pm EST To: Remote Addressee ( _MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU ) From: David Bergdahl Dept: English BERGDAHL Tel No: (614) 593-2783 Subject: bunc[ombe] >From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU >Subject: Re: two questions: boink and fish shan >To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L > > >In New York, isn't it mostly the bunk? > > >beth simon Beth, isn't that bunkum from Buncombe, N.C.?--as Mencken tells it, a representative from Buncombe ended his speeches with "I'm from Buncombe"and he was parodied as from bunkum. See Raven McDavid's 1-vol abridgement, p. 179. DARE also lists meanings of "excellent" & "crappy." Deconstructionists take notice! Also in DARE, Larry, is my sense of bunk [prob. alteration of bump] #2 which is listed as "NYC, esp Brooklyn." Yep, born there! Another poster's wife from N.J. used it that way as well. Earlier usage is belly-bunk, bunt < sledding. An extended meaning in marbles sense #3. All the fun things we learn from DARE!!! BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU David Bergdahl "Where Appalachia meets the Midwest"--Anya Briggs Received: 15-Feb-1996 12:58pm ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:25:13 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: bunc[ombe] I think it was Tad Dorgan who first said, "It's mostly the bunk." But, to be sure about it, check with DARE editor, Lenny Zwilling, formost Tad expert. beth ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:42:20 EST From: Undetermined origin c/o LISTSERV maintainer Subject: overheard in the elevator I was riding the elevator at lunch time today, and heard someone say, when asked how he was, that he was "this close to going postal." The conversation then went as follows: Questioner: Not in this elevator, please. Third man: Let's talk about that later. Questioner: Postal is bad. The "postal" guy (agreeing): Postal is bad. I think this is the first time I've heard postal used by itself as an adjective in this sense (obviously, it's adjectival in form and in older senses like "postal service"). The elevator, by the way, is in midtown Manhattan, and used primarily by employees of Viacom. Vicki Rosenzweig vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com | rosenzweig[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]acm.org New York, NY ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Feb 1996 to 15 Feb 1996 ************************************************ There are 15 messages totalling 379 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. New word? mouthfeel (3) 2. mouthfeel (2) 3. Schluppy 4. schluppy 5. subculture terms (Zenobia, Jupiter) 6. silly rules of grammar (4) 7. The fading of [hw] 8. ! Skimafleen, whilom (fwd) 9. Schluppy (ZHLUB) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:50:19 -0500 From: "Dale F.Coye" Subject: New word? mouthfeel Perusing the ingredients on the package of Swissmiss milk chocolate hot cocoa mix I note that they included some partially hydrogenated soybean oil. The good people at Swissmiss anticipated my puzzlement over why any soybean oil, whether partially or fully hydrogenated, would find its way into this beverage, and added this fascinating parentheses: (to provide smooth mouthfeel). A friend who loves to cook told me that this word has been around nutritionist circles for some time, but I'd never come across it. I don't know if this qualifies for a new word, not having the newer dictionaries against which to judge it, but you've got to admit this is a word with great potential. Here I'd been making do with "texture" for so long, a word clearly inadequate to the task assigned it. But Mouthfeel-- this word will go far! Now I can finally explain to people why it is I don't like tofu. Further this word should be adopted in linguistic circles and among poets and orators to explain why certain words work better in certain contexts. Monongahela has better mouthfeel than Allegheny, Kirk Douglas has better mouthfeel than his real name Izzy Demsky, French has better mouthfeel than German or Russian... Everything falls into place. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 10:35:13 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: New word? mouthfeel It is a nice one, but somehow (maybe influenced by Sprachgefuehl) I keep think- ing it's a calque on the original German. Or perhaps from Newspeak, and as such doubleplusungood. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:49:42 +0000 From: "E. W. Gilman" Subject: mouthfeel We have evidence for _mouthfeel_ here at Merriam-Webster going back at least to 1985. It seems to be used primarily in writing about reduced-fat foods and in wine reviews. E.W. Gilman ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:48:36 EST From: Steven Heffner <74754.517[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: mouthfeel >>>It is a nice one, but somehow (maybe influenced by Sprachgefuehl) I keep think- ing it's a calque on the original German. Or perhaps from Newspeak, and as such doubleplusungood. Larry<<< I second this comment! Dale F. Cole (the originator of this thread) mentioned that the word has been around in nutritionist circles, but my experience has been that the only nutritionists who use the word (at least with a straight face) are those in the employ of marketing departments--the real home of Newspeak. Steven ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:19:03 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Schluppy I encountered the term in the newspaper this morning, in the phrase , as ones who would not be good enough for a womal ( Subject: schluppy Might be a misunderstanding of either schleppy or schlubby. E.W.Gilman ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 17:55:07 -0500 From: RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: subculture terms (Zenobia, Jupiter) I believe it was Tim who asked a few days ago, "Do the names "Zenobia" (Xenobia?) and "Jupiter" have any significance in lesbian subculture parlance?" Here are the two answers that I have received to date from a GLB bulletin board; please let me know if anybody has got any others somewhere else: 1. According to my resource, "The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets," by Barbara G. Walker, Harper & Row, C. 1983: Zenobia Dynastic name of matriarchal queens of Palmyra. In their native Aramaic, the name was Bath-Zabbai, or Bath-Sheba, meaning "Daughter of the Goddess." See Solomon and Sheba. The famous queen Zenobia Septimia was the "seventh Bath-Sheba." She had no official consort. She named her son Wahab-Allath, "Gift of the Goddess Allath." Allath was the same Semitic Moon-mother whom Islam later masculinized as Allah. Walker's other book, "The Woman's Dictionary of Symbols and Sacred Objects," also has a rather lengthy discussion of Jupiter, and the notion that as a youth "Jove," he replaced the Virgin memberof the formerly all-female Capitoline Triad, consisting of Juventas, Juno and Minerva. He, of course, later became Juno's consort. As for uses of these names in Lesbian parlance. . .I've never heard it; and I've been around the block and read a heckuva lot. If you find out about any slang usage, I'd like to know of it. 2. *Z*enobia SHOULD [have significance in lesbian subculture parlance]-- a warrior queen in the Roman empire, commander of Palmyra in Palestine, died 272 A.D. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 17:57:34 -0500 From: RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: silly rules of grammar Here is one more good example of why it makes sense for speakers of English to use "they" as the indefinite pronoun of singular reference (rather "he"or "she"): >From the *South Florida Sun-Sentinel," 15Feb96, 9B/1-2: "POMPANO BEACH--Police are trying to figure out who would want to kill James Maxwell, and why. "Maxwell, 40, who owned a commercial fishing boat and an electronics company, was killed outside his upscale waterfront condominium at 8:10 Tuesday night, police spokeswoman Sandra King said. " 'It was a hit,' King said. 'Whoever killed him waited for him a great deal of time and, when he showed up, they emptied their gun.' " " . . . neighbors saw a white man, about 5 feet 8 inches tall with a medium build . . . hanging around Maxwell's home Tuesday night." If the "police spokeswoman Sandra King" had chosen to say either ". . . he emptied his gun" or ". . . she emptied her gun" would have implied that she knew more about the shooter's identity than she did. The use of the gender-neutral "they . . . their" not only avoids this trap, it also allows for the possibility that more than one person was involved in the killing. In this case, "they . . . their" also eliminates a potential confusion of "he" the victim and "they" the killer(s). The good sense of ordinary speakers of the language once again triumphs over mindless prescriptivism! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 15:46:03 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: The fading of [hw] I'm sitting here grading papers from my English lit survey class and laughed at my image of either a Jonah-type or a Circean-type scene when I read that the Celts "were attacked by the Anglo-Saxons and forced into Whales." So I guess [hw] is fading even here in Mississippi, where I had assumed almost everybody used it. OTOH, maybe the "Whales" in that paper came from the same mysterious source that produced a statement in a different paper that "Middle English literature reflected all people from aristocrats to pheasants." --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 16:23:33 MST From: Tom Uharriet Subject: Re: silly rules of grammar The "they" used below suggests that the police have reason to believe that more than one person was involved in the crime. This inference has legal significance in the courtroom. Either way it would need to be clarified. Tom > Here is one more good example of why it makes sense for speakers of English > to use "they" as the indefinite pronoun of singular reference (rather "he"or > "she"): > > From the *South Florida Sun-Sentinel," 15Feb96, 9B/1-2: "POMPANO > BEACH--Police are trying to figure out who would want to kill James Maxwell, > and why. > "Maxwell, 40, who owned a commercial fishing boat and an electronics > company, was killed outside his upscale waterfront condominium at 8:10 > Tuesday night, police spokeswoman Sandra King said. > " 'It was a hit,' King said. 'Whoever killed him waited for him a great > deal of time and, when he showed up, they emptied their gun.' " > " . . . neighbors saw a white man, about 5 feet 8 inches tall with a > medium build . . . hanging around Maxwell's home Tuesday night." > > If the "police spokeswoman Sandra King" had chosen to say either ". . . he > emptied his gun" or ". . . she emptied her gun" would have implied that she > knew more about the shooter's identity than she did. The use of the > gender-neutral "they . . . their" not only avoids this trap, it also allows > for the possibility that more than one person was involved in the killing. In > this case, "they . . . their" also eliminates a potential confusion of "he" > the victim and "they" the killer(s). > > The good sense of ordinary speakers of the language once again triumphs over > mindless prescriptivism! > utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.shs.nebo.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 19:47:47 -0500 From: Benjamin Barrett Subject: Re: silly rules of grammar Wouldn't that require a plural -s on gun? Benjamin Barrett >Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 16:23:33 MST >From: Tom Uharriet >The "they" used below suggests that the police have reason to believe >that more than one person was involved in the crime. This inference >has legal significance in the courtroom. Either way it would need to >be clarified. >> Here is one more good example of why it makes sense for speakers of > English >> to use "they" as the indefinite pronoun of singular reference (rather > "he"or >> "she"): >> >> From the *South Florida Sun-Sentinel," 15Feb96, 9B/1-2: "POMPANO >> BEACH--Police are trying to figure out who would want to kill James > Maxwell, >> and why. >> "Maxwell, 40, who owned a commercial fishing boat and an electronics >> company, was killed outside his upscale waterfront condominium at 8:10 >> Tuesday night, police spokeswoman Sandra King said. >> " 'It was a hit,' King said. 'Whoever killed him waited for him a > great >> deal of time and, when he showed up, they emptied their gun.' " >> " . . . neighbors saw a white man, about 5 feet 8 inches tall with a >> medium build . . . hanging around Maxwell's home Tuesday night." [snip] >utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.shs.nebo.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 19:06:21 -0600 From: Dan Goodman Subject: ! Skimafleen, whilom (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:06:14 -0500 (EST) From: Steve Newton To: Tom Zimoski Cc: Stumpers list Subject: ! Skimafleen, whilom Mrs. Byrnes Dictionary of Unusual, obscure and preposterous words says that whilom , adv., means "formerly, once. -adj. former." Nor word on skimafleen. Steve Newton "There was always sun shining someplace." Delaware Division of Libraries Julius "Judy" Johnson Newton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kentnet.dtcc.edu 302-739-4748 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 17:54:04 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Re: New word? mouthfeel Dale Coye opined: > Monongahela has better mouthfeel than Allegheny, Kirk Douglas has better >mouthfeel than his real name Izzy Demsky, French has better mouthfeel than >German or Russian... Everything falls into place. > Issur Danielovich if you please, and it has a pretty good ring at that. Seth Sklarey Wittgenstein School of setting the record straight crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:36:48 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Re: silly rules of grammar >Here is one more good example of why it makes sense for speakers of English >to use "they" as the indefinite pronoun of singular reference (rather "he"or >"she"): > >>From the *South Florida Sun-Sentinel," 15Feb96, 9B/1-2: "POMPANO >BEACH--Police are trying to figure out who would want to kill James Maxwell, >and why. > "Maxwell, 40, who owned a commercial fishing boat and an electronics >company, was killed outside his upscale waterfront condominium at 8:10 >Tuesday night, police spokeswoman Sandra King said. > " 'It was a hit,' King said. 'Whoever killed him waited for him a great >deal of time and, when he showed up, they emptied their gun.' " > " . . . neighbors saw a white man, about 5 feet 8 inches tall with a >medium build . . . hanging around Maxwell's home Tuesday night." > >If the "police spokeswoman Sandra King" had chosen to say either ". . . he >emptied his gun" or ". . . she emptied her gun" would have implied that she >knew more about the shooter's identity than she did. The use of the >gender-neutral "they . . . their" not only avoids this trap, it also allows >for the possibility that more than one person was involved in the killing. In >this case, "they . . . their" also eliminates a potential confusion of "he" >the victim and "they" the killer(s). > >The good sense of ordinary speakers of the language once again triumphs over >mindless prescriptivism! I agree that there should be a better way. Police spokespersons used to be former journalists or TV or Radio people who had some knowledge of syntax and grammar. Seth Sklarey crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com > > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:52:30 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Re: Schluppy (ZHLUB) Make that zhlubby. Zhlub rhymes with rub but it is also used as zhlob to rhyme with "daub." Fom Slavic: zhlob, "coarse fellow." 1. An insensitive, ill-mannered person. "He acts like a zhlub, that zhlub." 2. A clumsy, gauche, graceless person. "Vassar-Shmasser, the girl's still a zhlub." 3. An oaf, a yokel, a bumpkin. "What can you expect from such a zhlub?" Also see klutz, bulvon, graub. >From The Joys of Yiddish by Leo Rosten SETH SKLAREY Wittgenstein school of Yiddish transliteration Coconut Grove, Florida crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com >I encountered the term in the newspaper this morning, in the >phrase , as ones who would not be good enough for a womal >(among the words christened in the 10th Merriam Webster's Collegiate which >I have at hand. Any translations? > --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) > > ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Feb 1996 to 16 Feb 1996 ************************************************ There are 8 messages totalling 155 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. silly rules of grammar (5) 2. Kirk Douglas' name 3. New word? mouthfeel 4. 2 New Words? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 01:23:38 -0500 From: Robert Swets Subject: Re: silly rules of grammar On Fri, 16 Feb 1996 RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM wrote: > Here is one more good example of why it makes sense for speakers of English > to use "they" as the indefinite pronoun of singular reference (rather "he"or > "she"): > >From the *South Florida Sun-Sentinel," 15Feb96, 9B/1-2: "POMPANO > BEACH--Police are trying to figure out who would want to kill James Maxwell, > and why. > " 'It was a hit,' King said. 'Whoever killed him waited for him a great > deal of time and, when he showed up, they emptied their gun.' " > " . . . neighbors saw a white man, about 5 feet 8 inches tall with a > medium build . . . hanging around Maxwell's home Tuesday night." > If the "police spokeswoman Sandra King" had chosen to say either ". . . he > emptied his gun" or ". . . she emptied her gun" would have implied that she > knew more about the shooter's identity than she did. The use of the > gender-neutral "they . . . their" not only avoids this trap, it also allows > for the possibility that more than one person was involved in the killing. In > this case, "they . . . their" also eliminates a potential confusion of "he" > the victim and "they" the killer(s). > > The good sense of ordinary speakers of the language once again triumphs over > mindless prescriptivism! When I left work there about an hour ago, it was the Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel (published by the Sun-Sentinel Company, a Chicago Tribune company). ******************************************************************************* __ __ COLOR ME ORANGE | | | | Voice: 954-782-4582; Fax: 954-782-4535 R. D. Swets (Archbishop Bob) | | | | Zion Lutheran School: 954-421-3146, 170 N.E. 18th Street ______| | | |______ Ext. 135; Fax: 954-421-4250 Pompano Beach, FL 33060 (________) (________) Ft. Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel: bobbo[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bcfreenet.seflin.lib.fl.us 954-356-4635; Fax: 954-356-4676 ******************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 11:45:33 -0500 From: "Dale F.Coye" Subject: Kirk Douglas' name He was born Issur Danielovich, but growing up in Amsterdam and in college at St. Lawrence Univ. was known as Isidore Demsky-- see his Autobiography. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 11:12:05 PST From: tom creswell Subject: Re: silly rules of grammar Those concerned that the use of _they, their, them_ as gender- and number-free pronouns will somehow destroy the English language should do some reading of contemporary British fiction and journalism, in which they will find that this use is almost universal. Even so, it seems that English is still alive. It might also be useful to examine the history of English to observe how pronoun use has tended to simplify in general. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 13:32:03 -0500 From: RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: silly rules of grammar Tom Unharriet writes: "The 'they' used below suggests that the police have reason to believe that more than one person was involved in the crime. This inference has legal significance in the courtroom. Either way it would need to be clarified." No! The use of 'they' suggests that more than one person MAY have been involved in the crime; it quite properly allows for the possibility of plurality, but it does not proscribe a singular interpretation On the other hand, 'he' or 'she' would tend to proscribe the alternative gender. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 19:49:19 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: silly rules of grammar The first time I was in London, alongside the bus from the airport to the hotel there was a van with this interesting motto painted on it: Everyone should have their own phone And I don't think IT&T or Sprint or some such institution installs phones in England. Would the British phone service use the Queen's English or what? DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 18:55:48 -0700 From: William King Subject: Re: New word? mouthfeel "Mouthfeel" reminds me of two Japanese products, Mouth Pet (mouthwash), and Joy Feel (a Band-Aid (still the best term, all rights reserved)). But that aside, mouthfeel sure sounds like a direct translation of some German word. Bill King University of Arizona, SLAT ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 22:57:09 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" Subject: 2 New Words? I received the ff. text in a message to another list I subscribe to (focus marks are mine, of course). "Digestifiction" refers to list digest mode. "If digestification is possible, please let us know how to set the ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ address, (and more importantly, what address to send this too.) I apologize for throwing administrivia questions into an open forum ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ like this. I, as a mailing list moderator, understand how obnoxious messages like these are. Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. | Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Dep't of English, UT, Knoxville | EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower | (423) 974-6965 | FAX (423) 974-6926 Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 | See Webpage at http://hamlet.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 21:00:06 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Re: silly rules of grammar I have a British friend who gets especially upset watching American newscasts. The tendency is for newscasters to speak in the present tense for past events. "Gunman gets shot as police open fire. Film at 11." (It happened yesterday.) How common is this around the country, and why is it so prevalent on the news? SETH SKLAREY Coconut Grove, FL crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com >Those concerned that the use of _they, their, them_ as gender- and >number-free pronouns will somehow destroy the English language should do some >reading of contemporary British fiction and journalism, in which they will >find that this use is almost universal. Even so, it seems that English is >still alive. It might also be useful to examine the history of English to >observe how pronoun use has tended to simplify in general. > > ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Feb 1996 to 17 Feb 1996 ************************************************ There are 17 messages totalling 386 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. 2 New Words? (2) 2. Mea culpa: it is. 3. Risin' = boil (n.) (3) 4. silly rules of grammar 5. Present tense in newsbreak announcements (4) 6. New word? mouthfeel 7. South-Florida Sun-Sentinel 8. error in NADS re: SAMLA (and my address!) (2) 9. Middle English Sources (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 22:58:28 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Re: 2 New Words? Sorry, Bethany, I get dibs on having used on ADS-L last year, and drew a response at the time from Ed Anthony that his daughter, then suffering the same woes as I was as a department head, had used the word in a letter to him the same week. While there is the remote possibility that I had subliminally encountered the word earlier, I suspect that it is simply the intellectual vacuity of so much that is demanded increasingly by ever-expanding academic bureaucracies to justify their existence (Parkinson's Law in the academy) that pushes creative minds wishing for more substantive things to do, to independently seize on this coinage as a momentary balm of humor to relieve the rising pain. --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 23:11:56 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Mea culpa: it is. My thanks to Seth Sklarey for coming up with a quote from Leo Rosten "The Joys of Yiddish", which clearly identifies the source of the word in . Also to E.W. Gilman, for correcting my erroneous recollection of "schluppy" (a lesson to check my sources!) as properly . A couple of questions for E. W. Gilman: what are the earliest citations on this, and is there a possibility that could be the source of rather than the putative Irish source in "mud"? I infer from the meanings of that means essentially someone who is a slob. Would this be a valid guess? --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 23:24:27 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Risin' = boil (n.) A colleague of mine from Alabama recalls the term (presumably "a rising" as the general term for "a boil" on the skin. The OED records it with cites from 1593-1847, but labels it "now dial." Once again my M-W 10th Collegiate fails me on this. Does anybody else have any records on it? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 02:04:38 -0500 From: Bob Haas Subject: Re: silly rules of grammar Seth, back when I was in journalism school (it's been awhile now), such broadcast headlines were called teasers. The practice of composing them in present tense was never directly addressed, but we were all assured (by very competent faculty) that present tense was the way to go. The practice seems to be the same all over the country, particularly at local stations. I imagine that news editors still prefer it because it gives an air of immediacy to the headlines and keeps viewers peeled for details; you see a lot of it in newsbreaks and over programming credits before newscasts. While I personally find it a little goofy, I've no problem with understanding what the talking heads are communicating. Another case of tv-speak. Bob Haas University of North Carolina at Greensboro rahaas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu On Sat, 17 Feb 1996, SETH SKLAREY wrote: > I have a British friend who gets especially upset watching American newscasts. > The tendency is for newscasters to speak in the present tense for past events. > "Gunman gets shot as police open fire. Film at 11." (It happened yesterday.) > How common is this around the country, and why is it so prevalent on the news? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 00:50:06 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Present tense in newsbreak announcements My assumption is that this practice derives from the well-established narrative practice in English to shift from past to "present" (nonpast) tense to foreground narrative action, so it is not as peculiar as it seems in isolation. But somebody mentioned awhile back that there is a separate newsgroup on usage. Shouldn't that be the appropriate venue for this sort of topic? Perhaps someone could provide that address, and shift some of the traffic off the ADS-L. No need to duplicate functions. --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 13:49:08 +0200 From: Pete Buchy Subject: Re: New word? mouthfeel > I don't know if this qualifies for a new word, not having the newer > dictionaries against which to judge it, but you've got to admit this is a > word with great potential. Here I'd been making do with "texture" for so > long, a word clearly inadequate to the task assigned it. But Mouthfeel-- > this word will go far! Now I can finally explain to people why it is I don't > like tofu. > Further this word should be adopted in linguistic circles and among poets > and orators to explain why certain words work better in certain contexts. > Monongahela has better mouthfeel than Allegheny, Kirk Douglas has better > mouthfeel than his real name Izzy Demsky, French has better mouthfeel than > German or Russian... Everything falls into place. Mouthfeel may have something to do with it, but we have to take into note cultural background and language exposure to deal with mouthfeel in a linguistic context. From an English and Spanish speaking background, Swedish wasn't too bad for me to learn. And after Swedish German wasn't so bad. But the strong use of consonants in Finnish made it feel bad for me. The other way around also applys, though. I know a number of Finns who don't like French so much because of the extra emphasis on vowels and smaller emphasis on consonants. To them it feels wrong. Pete Buchy E-mail: pbuchy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.abo.fi ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 07:29:19 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas, U of Tennessee" Subject: Re: Risin' = boil (n.) I've known the term "risin'" all my life, Rudi. (SE TX) Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. | Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Dep't of English, UT, Knoxville | EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower | (423) 974-6965 | FAX (423) 974-6926 Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 | See Webpage at http://hamlet.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 04:47:14 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Re: 2 New Words? Do you think more words are coined from popular usage or from administrativian bureaucratise which thrives on obfuscatorian taurian fecalitisms? Seth Sklarey Wittgenstein School of the Unwritten Word Coconut Grove, FL crissiet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ix.netcom.com >Sorry, Bethany, I get dibs on having used on ADS-L last >year, and drew a response at the time from Ed Anthony that his daughter, >then suffering the same woes as I was as a department head, had used the >word in a letter to him the same week. While there is the remote possibility >that I had subliminally encountered the word earlier, I suspect that it is >simply the intellectual vacuity of so much that is demanded increasingly by >ever-expanding academic bureaucracies to justify their existence (Parkinson's >Law in the academy) that pushes creative minds wishing for more substantive >things to do, to independently seize on this coinage as a momentary balm of >humor to relieve the rising pain. > > --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 08:22:37 -0600 From: Alan R Slotkin Subject: Re: Present tense in newsbreak announcements While I don't know of a separate newgroup/disc. list for usage, I do want to remind ADS-L participants that the Usage Committee is attempting to start up a newsletter and would welcome the kind of discussion on present tense usage in headlines and on singular they/their as submissions. If someone desires to do so, please submit your ideas/comments/short articles, etc., to me either via e-mail or snail mail. Thanks. Alan ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Alan R. Slotkin Professor of English Box 5053 Tennessee Technological University Cookeville, TN 38505 Phone: 615-372-3262 FAX: 615-372-6142 e-mail: ars7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tntech.edu ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 09:52:01 -0500 From: RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: South-Florida Sun-Sentinel R. D. Swets writes, "When I left work there about an hour ago, it was the Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel, [not the South-Florida Sun-Sentinel.]" Well, Archbishop Bob, nowhere on the masthead/front-page of your very fine newspaper do the words "Fort Lauderdale" appear--however, the words "South Florida" ARE there, in caps and what looks like 24-point type. On page 1A the "Reader's Guide" gives a Ft. Lauderdale address as the business location for the paper--but then NEWSWEEK gives a Washington, DC, business location, but that doesn't make it "The Washington, DC, NEWSWEEK"! Cf. USA TODAY, the Wall Street Journal, the Christian Science Monitor, etc. I've only been here for three weeks (and I have to go back to North Carolina on 1 March)--as I newcomer, I went by what I read in the newspaper. If y'all want me to call you the "Fort Lauderdale" Sun-Sentinel and not the "South Florida" Sun-Sentinel, then I respectfully suggest that you call YOURSELVES the "Fort Lauderdale" Sun-Sentinel and not the "South Florida" Sun-Sentinel SOMEWHERE in the newspaper itself (especially on the masthead)! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 09:24:50 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Re: Present tense in newsbreak announcements > While I don't know of a separate newgroup/disc. list for usage, I do want to alt.usage.english --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 10:38:27 -0500 From: "Alfred F. Rosa" Subject: Re: Present tense in newsbreak announcements Rudy, Do you have any more information on the usage newsgroup you mentioned? Al ^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^+^ Professor Alfred Rosa || Department of English || P.O. Box 54030 || University of Vermont || "The limits of my language Burlington, VT 05405-0114 || mean the limits of my Telephone: 802-656-4139 || world." Fax: 802-656-3055 || e-mail: arosa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]moose.uvm.edu || --Ludwig Wittgenstein Prodigy: kgdx32a || AOL: Sassari || ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 16:17:40 -0500 From: "Peter L. Patrick" Subject: error in NADS re: SAMLA (and my address!) I've just signed back on to ADS-L after months off it (in case anyone wonders-- or cares!). Forgive me for rejoining with a criticism of our own newsletter! The latest NADS, which I just received last week, correctly announces that I am chairing an ADS session in Savannah this Novemeber at SAMLA (South Atlantic MLA), for which abstracts are due May 1. I would like to make this a general invitation, but I have to start by giving my correct address. Contrary to the NADS listing, I do not receive mail c/o the Center for Language Teaching and Learning in New Haven CT! I am still at the Linguistics Dept., Georgetown University, Washington DC 20057. Please direct any inquiries about abstracts to me via email, or via mail at the Georgetown address. (What is the CLTL, anyway? Is one of our ADS members affiliated with it? I've never heard of them.) I will post details later this week of the SAMLA session. Meanwhile, I invite anyone interested in visiting this lovely Georgian city and sharing your dialectal insights (on any topic within the usual confines of ADS talks) to mull it over and contact me. glad to be back, --peter patrick ppatrick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 17:10:48 -0400 From: "E. Wayles Browne" Subject: Re: error in NADS re: SAMLA (and my address!) Peter Patrick says: > Contrary to the NADS listing, I do not receive mail c/o the >Center for Language Teaching and Learning in New Haven CT! I am still >at the Linguistics Dept., Georgetown University, Washington DC 20057. >Please direct any inquiries about abstracts to me via email, or via >mail at the Georgetown address. (What is the CLTL, anyway? Is one of >our ADS members affiliated with it? I've never heard of them.) I have a suspicion what happened: the head of the Consortium for Language Teaching and Learning in New Haven is Peter Patrikis, and he must have been in some listing one line below you. The Consortium is a group of universities, and has some funds to make small grants supporting innovative approaches to foreign-language teaching. Wayles Browne, Assoc. Prof. of Linguistics Department of Linguistics Morrill Hall, Cornell University Ithaca, New York 14853, U.S.A. tel. 607-255-0712 (o), 607-273-3009 (h) fax 607-255-2044 (write FOR W. BROWNE) e-mail ewb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornell.edu (1989 to 1993 was: jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.bitnet // jn5j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cornella.cit.cornell.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 19:03:36 -0330 From: Trevor Porter Subject: Middle English Sources Hi everyone, I'm interested in any sources (preferably accessible) from the Southwest of England from the Middle English Period. I'm not sure if this is the place for such a request, but I will be using the information in a study of Newfoundland dialects. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd appreciate it if you'd drop me a line. (tporter[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ganymede.cs.mun.ca -- if you'd like to keep it off the discussion group) Thanks Trevor ps also, if there's a more appropriate group that I should ask, lemme know. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 20:35:52 -0500 From: Robert Howren Subject: Re: Risin' = boil (n.) "Risin'" for "boil" (n.) was the common term in north Georgia when I was growing up in the 1930's and '40's. |>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>| | Robert Howren howren[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]email.unc.edu | | Chapel Hill, NC | |<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<| -- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 23:21:04 EST From: Terry Lynn Irons Subject: Re: Middle English Sources > > Hi everyone, > > I'm interested in any sources (preferably accessible) from the Southwest > of England from the Middle English Period. I'm not sure if this is the > place for such a request, but I will be using the information in a study of > Newfoundland dialects. If anyone has any suggestions, I'd appreciate it > if you'd drop me a line. (tporter[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ganymede.cs.mun.ca -- if you'd like to > keep it off the discussion group) > Thanks > > Trevor > > ps also, if there's a more appropriate group that I should ask, lemme know. > THe Penn-Helsinki Corpus of Middle English might be a place to start. It is available through anonymous ftp at babel.ling.upenn.edu or though a browser at http://www.cis.upenn.edu/~mideng/ But you need to direct an access request first to Anthony Kroch at kroch[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]linc.cis.upenn.edu Terry Irons -- (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Feb 1996 to 18 Feb 1996 ************************************************ There are 8 messages totalling 166 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Risin' = boil (n.) (3) 2. Schluppy 3. silly rules of grammar 4. error in NADS re: SAMLA (and my address!) 5. "Beg the question": NYT 2-fer 6. destination e-mail ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 00:39:55 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: Risin' = boil (n.) I can offer only a family usage citation for 'risin'' used for 'boil'. I've heard it so often that I assumed it hadn't fully entered archailand. I think I'd use it with family members of my generation and uncles/aunts, and maybe with younger members of the extended family, but it has enough of an archaism flavor that I doubt I'd use it with people I don't know well unless they seem to have a rural background. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 09:09:43 CST From: "Joan H. Hall" Subject: Re: Risin' = boil (n.) DARE maps show "rising" to be found throughout the South and South Midland. Joan Hall ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 09:30:18 -0600 From: Samuel Jones Subject: Re: Schluppy TO: Rudy Troike So, think maybe on the noun SCHLOOMP (It's close in sound? A jettisoned bilabial continuant ?) = a sloppy incompetent. >From my ANGLISH/YINGLISH volume (Bluestein, Gene. University of Georgia Press, 1989). "To Dad, Benn was a schlump, an incompetent, his list of failings, his confused relations with women, made him on a charitable view a fun figure." (Saul Bellow, MORE DIE OF HEARTBREAK. 1987) >I encountered the term in the newspaper this morning, in the >phrase , as ones who would not be good enough for a womal >(among the words christened in the 10th Merriam Webster's Collegiate which >I have at hand. Any translations? > --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ____________________________________________________________________________ DR. SAMUEL M. JONES INTERNET: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu Prof. of Music & Latin American Studies TELNET: samjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu 5434 Humanities Building FAX: 608 + 262-8876 (UW) 455 North Park Street __________________________________________ University of Wisconsin-Madison TELEPHONES: 608 + 263-1900 (UW-Lv. message) Madison, WI 53706-1483 * 608 + 263-1924 * (UW-Office - * VOICE MAIL--Lv message) ____________________________________________________________________________ "Pen-y-Bryn" TELEPHONES: 608 + 233-2150 (Home) 122 Shepard Terrace 608 + 233-4748 (Home) Madison, WI 53705-3614 ____________________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 10:32:54 EST From: mai Subject: Re: silly rules of grammar On Sun, 18 Feb 1996 02:04:38 -0500 Bob Haas said: >Seth, back when I was in journalism school (it's been awhile now), such >broadcast headlines were called teasers. The practice of composing them >in present tense was never directly addressed, but we were all assured >(by very competent faculty) that present tense was the way to go. The >practice seems to be the same all over the country, particularly at >local stations. Thanks for the "teaser" information. I note also that sports broadcasts seem to use the present tense to the exclusion of all others and never seem to employ the subjunctive mood, substituting the present tense indic. as well. Are they also taught that in school? I always have the feeling that it sounds, well, ignernt... :-) If he goes long he has a touchdown. being used for : Had he gone long, he would've scored. Mark Ingram maingr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 11:19:34 -0600 From: Gerald Walton Subject: Re: Risin' = boil (n.) >I've known the term "risin'" all my life, Rudi. (SE TX) As have I. It is still widely used in rural Mississippi. GWW ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 12:27:41 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf Subject: Re: error in NADS re: SAMLA (and my address!) Mea culpa! But how that address came into the January newsletter, I can't figure out. It must have happened as Wayles Browne surmises, except that the ADS directory (in the September newsletter, and in my database) lists only Peter Patrick, not Peter Patrikis. And it gives the correct (Georgetown) address for Peter Patrick. My apologies. For the SAMLA meeting, please follow the instructions as Peter Patrick posts them. For other meetings - I think the information is right! - Allan Metcalf, ADS executive secretary ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 12:48:50 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: "Beg the question": NYT 2-fer Those following the use of "beg the question" to mean "raise the question" might be interested to know that yesterday's New York Times had (at least) two examples of this usage. Not bad for one day. 1996 New York Times (18 Feb.) Sports 9: [Columnist G. Vecsey wrote previously to criticize rich people who support athletes; a letter-to-editor responds:] Vecsey would have us believe that he is aobve it all. However, this begs the question: How is _his_ bread buttered? 1996 Richard Powers, in New York Times (18 Feb.) Week in Review 13: [Writing about Deep Thought, a chess computer:] We have reached the age when brute force can outperform creativity. This statement, of course, begs the question of what creativity is. Best, Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 18:38:52 -0500 From: Donna Metcalf Subject: Re: destination e-mail A while ago I asked if anyone had heard the term destination restaurant. This term is used continually on TV Diners by Nina Griscom (my late night vicarious dining experience) and means, of course, a restaurant where half the fun is getting there. In Friday's Chicago Tribune, in an article about (gag) Martha Stewart, the writer talked about a destination wedding. Perhaps next we'll hear about a destination college (UCSD?) or a destination ADS meeting (Seattle...hint, Allan) or a destination shopping mall (CoCo Walk in Miami). Is this a new adjective? Donna Metcalf ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Feb 1996 to 19 Feb 1996 ************************************************ There are 10 messages totalling 284 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "Beg the question": NYT 2-fer (2) 2. Schluppy 3. South-Florida Sun-Sentinel 4. New word? mouthfeel (2) 5. silly rules of grammar 6. 2 New Words? 7. Letter distribution in names? 8. Clear example of "Beg [=raise] the question" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Feb 1996 23:03:31 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Re: "Beg the question": NYT 2-fer Jesse, Thanks for adding the latest quotes (an interesting shortening of -- any time-depth of cites () on that?: I ask only because it has lately troubled me in formal contexts). Howsomever, I think the examples are perhaps ambiguously open to the first interpretation I would automatically assign to them: viz, "IGNORES the question", i.e., presupposes an understanding or awareness of what the questioned item is, thus leaving it unexamined or unquestioned, through failure to raise it as an issue or term to be questioned. In this sense, I do not find this a new meaning, but one that has been around quite a while. --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 13:00:23 -0600 From: "Ivanyan, Lilya I" Subject: Re: Schluppy Hi, Rudy! I think what you saw in the newspaper was a misspelled version of "schleppy" :) , which comes from Yiddish "schlepper" - "a clumsy stupid person". How does that sound to you? All the best, Lilya. (lii[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]usia.gov) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 06:49:16 -0500 From: Robert Swets Subject: Re: South-Florida Sun-Sentinel On Sun, 18 Feb 1996 RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com wrote: > R. D. Swets writes, "When I left work there about an hour ago, it was the > Fort Lauderdale Sun-Sentinel, [not the South-Florida Sun-Sentinel.]" > > Well, Archbishop Bob, nowhere on the masthead/front-page of your very fine > newspaper do the words "Fort Lauderdale" appear--however, the words "South > Florida" ARE there > > I've only been here for three weeks (and I have to go back to North Carolina > on 1 March)--as I newcomer, I went by what I read in the newspaper. If y'all > want me to call you the "Fort Lauderdale" Sun-Sentinel and not the "South > Florida" Sun-Sentinel, then I respectfully suggest that you call YOURSELVES > the "Fort Lauderdale" Sun-Sentinel and not the "South Florida" Sun-Sentinel > SOMEWHERE in the newspaper itself (especially on the masthead)! We don't care what you call us, as long as you buy us. "We've got you covered!" (means something else back in NC than it does in So. Fl.). Enjoy your stay. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 09:20:37 -0500 From: "Mary E. Zeigler" Subject: Re: New word? mouthfeel I heard Chef Prudhomme use it Sunday on his cooking show when he talked about making gumbo. Mary B. Zeigler Georgia State University Department of English engmez[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gsusgI2.gsu.edu Atlanta, GA 30303 (404) 651-2900 On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, Dale F.Coye wrote: > Perusing the ingredients on the package of Swissmiss milk chocolate hot cocoa > mix I note that they included some partially hydrogenated soybean oil. The > good people at Swissmiss anticipated my puzzlement over why any soybean oil, > whether partially or fully hydrogenated, would find its way into this > beverage, and added this fascinating parentheses: (to provide smooth > mouthfeel). A friend who loves to cook told me that this word has been > around nutritionist circles for some time, but I'd never come across it. > I don't know if this qualifies for a new word, not having the newer > dictionaries against which to judge it, but you've got to admit this is a > word with great potential. Here I'd been making do with "texture" for so > long, a word clearly inadequate to the task assigned it. But Mouthfeel-- > this word will go far! Now I can finally explain to people why it is I don't > like tofu. > Further this word should be adopted in linguistic circles and among poets > and orators to explain why certain words work better in certain contexts. > Monongahela has better mouthfeel than Allegheny, Kirk Douglas has better > mouthfeel than his real name Izzy Demsky, French has better mouthfeel than > German or Russian... Everything falls into place. > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 09:26:10 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: New word? mouthfeel Ah, that old Cajun-German substratum effect again. ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- I heard Chef Prudhomme use it Sunday on his cooking show when he talked about making gumbo. Mary B. Zeigler Georgia State University Department of English engmez[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]gsusgI2.gsu.edu Atlanta, GA 30303 (404) 651-2900 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 08:22:55 MST From: Tom Uharriet Subject: Re: silly rules of grammar I'm no legal expert; but I believe that if three people hold up a store with one gun, and one bullet is fired, they are all held responsible. Tom > Wouldn't that require a plural -s on gun? > > Benjamin Barrett > > >Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 16:23:33 MST > >From: Tom Uharriet > > >The "they" used below suggests that the police have reason to believe > >that more than one person was involved in the crime. This inference > >has legal significance in the courtroom. Either way it would need to > >be clarified. > > >> Here is one more good example of why it makes sense for speakers of > > English > >> to use "they" as the indefinite pronoun of singular reference (rather > > "he"or > >> "she"): > >> > >> From the *South Florida Sun-Sentinel," 15Feb96, 9B/1-2: "POMPANO > >> BEACH--Police are trying to figure out who would want to kill James > > Maxwell, > >> and why. > >> "Maxwell, 40, who owned a commercial fishing boat and an electronics > >> company, was killed outside his upscale waterfront condominium at 8:10 > >> Tuesday night, police spokeswoman Sandra King said. > >> " 'It was a hit,' King said. 'Whoever killed him waited for him a > > great > >> deal of time and, when he showed up, they emptied their gun.' " > >> " . . . neighbors saw a white man, about 5 feet 8 inches tall with a > >> medium build . . . hanging around Maxwell's home Tuesday night." > [snip] > >utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.shs.nebo.edu > utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.shs.nebo.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 11:07:37 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: "Beg the question": NYT 2-fer > Thanks for adding the latest quotes (an interesting shortening of > -- any time-depth of cites () on that?: I ask only > because it has lately troubled me in formal contexts). The earliest in OED2 is from 1888: Stodgy "quotes" from the ancients? Next is T.S. Eliot, 1922: Do you mean not use the Conrad quote or simply not put Conrad's name to it? > Howsomever, I think the examples are perhaps ambiguously open to > the first interpretation I would automatically assign to them: viz, "IGNORES > the question", i.e., presupposes an understanding or awareness of what the > questioned item is, thus leaving it unexamined or unquestioned, through > failure to raise it as an issue or term to be questioned. In this sense, I > do not find this a new meaning, but one that has been around quite a while. I agree that this sense is not new, and you're probably right to say that it should be the first sense one thinks of. But looking over the cites, I think the sports one is unambiguous in the sense I suggest, 'raise or prompt the question'. (Forgive my typo on "above," obviously.) The second does in retrospect seem ambiguous, but a good case could be made either way. I'd suggest though that esp. among younger speakers, the sense 'raise or prompt the question' is likely to be the only one. Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 08:19:19 -0800 From: Allen Maberry Subject: Re: 2 New Words? And perhaps a third. I recently heard the company slogan: "[company name]-- a whole new way to office" Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu sitting at my desk, thinking of new ways to cubicle. On Sat, 17 Feb 1996, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: > I received the ff. text in a message to another list I subscribe to > (focus marks are mine, of course). "Digestifiction" refers to list digest > mode. > > "If digestification is possible, please let us know how to set the > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > address, (and more importantly, what address to send this too.) > > I apologize for throwing administrivia questions into an open forum > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > like this. I, as a mailing list moderator, understand how obnoxious > messages like these are. > > Bethany > Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. | Applied Linguistics, Language & Law > Dep't of English, UT, Knoxville | EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu > 415 McClung Tower | (423) 974-6965 | FAX (423) 974-6926 > Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 | See Webpage at http://hamlet.la.utk.edu > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 12:13:57 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Letter distribution in names? I don't know if anyone has done any research on this, but I am trying to find a list of letter distribution in male and female given names. That is, what is the frequency of a given letter in a corpus consisting of given names? If anyone knows of such a study, or if there is an existing corpus of given names that could be sorted electronically, please let me know. TIA, Jesse Sheidlower ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Feb 1996 10:31:58 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Clear example of "Beg [=raise] the question" From: UACCIT::CTB "Carl Berkhout" 20-FEB-1996 02:07 To: UACCIT::RTROIKE CC: CTB Subj: RE: More examples of "beg the question" Rudy-- I can't recall if there had earlier been an interest in whether or not the Brits b*gg*r the question-begging matter as much as Yanks do. Anyway, they do. They're simply slower at getting things wrong than we are. They usually need some time to scorn Yank abuses of good, clear English (and whatever other Yank stuff) before they keenly adopt and practice those same abuses themselves. "Begging the question" is as muddled in the UK as it is in the US. Here's a very clear example in an article about Boris Yeltsin in the 8 August 1995 edition of the Daily Telegraph: > The president's television appearance begs many new questions about his > grip on the country. Carl ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Feb 1996 to 20 Feb 1996 ************************************************ There are 9 messages totalling 258 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. subscribe 2. Chicano English (3) 3. Gay "accent"? (4) 4. Letter distribution in names? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 01:02:18 -0500 From: Mary Elizabeth Williams Subject: subscribe subscribe _____________________________ | I am a cheap drunken whore.|__________________ ------- Please buy me a drink and fuck me hard.| Give me a call at: |________________________________________| 372-1387 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 11:20:58 +0200 From: Pete Buchy Subject: Chicano English Does anybody out there know where I can find some information on Chicano English? It is rather difficult to comu upon such info here in Finland, so if anyone has any leads, I would highly appreciate it. Thank you. Pete Buchy E-mail: pbuchy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.abo.fi ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 08:14:39 -0600 From: Shana Walton Subject: Re: Chicano English I posted to the whole list just in case anyone else is interested. If so, I have a nice bibliography of Chicano English citations. It's about two years old, but it's a good start. I'll be happy to share. Please email me directly. Shana Walton swalton[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ocean.st.usm.edu > > Does anybody out there know where I can find some information on Chicano > English? It is rather difficult to comu upon such info here in Finland, > so if anyone has any leads, I would highly appreciate it. > > Thank you. > > Pete Buchy E-mail: pbuchy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.abo.fi > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 09:13:34 -0600 From: "Kathleen M. O'Neill" Subject: Gay "accent"? I'm doing some work on the homosexual community's "reclaiming" of certain terms like "fag" and "queer," and as a side issue, have come across the question of a gay accent. Some of my interview sources believe that the accent in question is related to a San Francisco accent. Does this ring any bells? Do any of you know of studies of a gay accent, first of all, and secondly, of its origins? Any information would be most helpful. Thanks! =^] ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I ; ;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu ; ;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::; ;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ; ;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ; ;Chicago, IL 60607-7025 ; ;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX ; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 10:36:35 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA> Subject: Re: Gay "accent"? a few sources on gay language: there's a study on "gay accent" in the spring 1994 issue of _american speech_. its bibliography contains a few more things. it's by rudolf gaudio. greg ward of northwestern univ. compiles a bibliography on queer language. it's available at: http://www.ling.nwu.edu/Individuals/Ward/gaybib.html or by e-mailing him at gw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nwu.edu also, if you're working on the reclamation of "queer" etc., might i shamelessly plug my own work? i've a paper called "the elusive bisexual: psycho-social constraints on lexical semantic change." (actually, i may have the subtitle wrong.) to appear in kira hall and anna livia (eds.) _queerly phrased_, oxford u.p., sept. 96, but i'd happily send off a pre-publication copy to you. it looks at (among other things) how the meaning of queer has developed in the time since it has been reclaimed, and how perceptions of what it means differ from its use. i've never heard that "gay accent" was related to san francisco accent. (i've never even heard of a san francisco accent.) usually, gay speech styles are attributed to effeminacy, affectedness, drama. good luck, lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 12:18:49 -0500 From: RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Letter distribution in names? Frank Anshen did some work on this sort of thing several years ago. I don't have his e-mail address, but he teaches linguistics at NYU-Stony Brook (I think it is). He may be a member of ADS--he is ceertainly a member of LSA. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 12:34:00 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf Subject: Re: Chicano English A good starting point is these two overviews: Joyce Penfield and Jack Ornstein-Galicia. 1985. _Chicano English._ Varieties of English Around the World, General Series 7. Amsterdam: John Benjamins. Jacob Ornstein-Galicia, ed. 1984. _Form and Function in Chicano English._ Rowley, Massachusetts: Newbury House. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 20:12:31 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Re: Gay "accent"? >I'm doing some work on the homosexual >community's "reclaiming" of certain >terms like "fag" and "queer," and as >a side issue, have come across the >question of a gay accent. Some of my >interview sources believe that the >accent in question is related to a >San Francisco accent. > >Does this ring any bells? Do any of >you know of studies of a gay accent, >first of all, and secondly, of its >origins? > >Any information would be most helpful. >Thanks! >=^] Also the differentiation between accent and affectatio. >;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; >;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I ; >;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu ; >;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::; >;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ; >;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ; >;Chicago, IL 60607-7025 ; >;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX ; >;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 23:33:51 -0500 From: Margaret Ronkin Subject: Re: Gay "accent"? I believe that William Leap of the Department of Anthropology at The American University recently edited or wrote a volume which may address such issues in discussions of language and identity. Maggie On Wed, 21 Feb 1996, SETH SKLAREY wrote: > >I'm doing some work on the homosexual > >community's "reclaiming" of certain > >terms like "fag" and "queer," and as > >a side issue, have come across the > >question of a gay accent. Some of my > >interview sources believe that the > >accent in question is related to a > >San Francisco accent. > > > >Does this ring any bells? Do any of > >you know of studies of a gay accent, > >first of all, and secondly, of its > >origins? > > > >Any information would be most helpful. > >Thanks! > >=^] > > Also the differentiation between accent and affectatio. > >;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; > >;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I ; > >;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu ; > >;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::; > >;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ; > >;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ; > >;Chicago, IL 60607-7025 ; > >;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX ; > >;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; > > > > > ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Feb 1996 to 21 Feb 1996 ************************************************ There are 9 messages totalling 170 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Gay Accent correction 2. nads 3. ADS Teaching news 4. Monkey Wards and Kame-apart -Reply (3) 5. silly rules of grammar 6. Risin' = boil (n.) (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Feb 1996 21:05:02 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Gay Accent correction It was Kate O'Neill, not I asking the question. I just asked the question on the last line. SETH ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 09:58:14 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA> Subject: nads just received my nads and was disappointed not to find a teaching newsletter within it. is this no longer done, or is it only done occasionally? it's my favorite part. lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 11:36:14 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf Subject: ADS Teaching news Good question, Lynne. The last ADS Teaching Newsletter graced the May 1995 issue of NADS. In it the editor and committee chair, Kathryn Riley, introduced her successor and invited readers to volunteer articles and to serve on the committee. I don't know when the new chair will have a new issue of the Teaching Newsletter, but you're welcome to encourage him. He is: Alan Manning Dept of Linguistics 2129 JKHB Brigham Young University Provo UT 84602 phone (801) 378-2974 email: alan_manning[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]byu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 16:15:09 -0600 From: Miriam Meyers Subject: Re: Monkey Wards and Kame-apart -Reply Fritz Juengling St. Paul MN of St. Paul writes, >On Tue, 13 Feb 1996, Miriam Meyers wrote: > >> We use the 'French' pronunciation of Target here in Minnesota > >We do? > >The first time I heard anyone say `tar-zhay' was the day before >yesterday. But the speaker is visiting from Maine and gives a French >pronunciation of her own family name, where her son gives an American >pronunciation. So, I thought, after I figured out what in the world she >was talking about, that she had gone to 'Target' and was giving some odd >pronunciation just to be funny. >Since Target is such a high-class place to shop, I go there all the >time. I have ever heard any of the employees not advertisements refer to >it by any other name than 'Target.' Okay. Some Minnesotans don't, obviously. I can say with certainty that I have been hearing this for at least 15 years in Minnesota, from a variety of people. Miriam Meyers Metropolitan State University mmeyers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msus1.msus.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 16:31:13 -0600 From: Miriam Meyers Subject: Re: silly rules of grammar Donald Lance writes >The first time I was in London, alongside the bus from the airport to the >hotel there was a van with this interesting motto painted on it: > Everyone should have their own phone > >And I don't think IT&T or Sprint or some such institution installs phones >in England. Would the British phone service use the Queen's English or >what? I have a citation of the queen using singular they; it's common in B. Britain according to British linguists who watch such matters. Miriam Meyers Metropolitan State University mmeyers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msus1.msus.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 16:37:30 -0600 From: Miriam Meyers Subject: Re: Risin' = boil (n.) Robert Howren writes >"Risin'" for "boil" (n.) was the common term in north Georgia when I was >growing up in the 1930's and '40's. > I agree; we had it in Atlanta in the 40s and 50s. Miriam Meyers Metropolitan State University mmeyers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msus1.msus.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 16:43:40 -0800 From: "Thomas L. Clark" Subject: Re: Monkey Wards and Kame-apart -Reply I have seen a couple of comments about Target as being "a high-class place to shop." I considered these comments to be litotes, or at least ironic. The Target stores here are the same as K-mart, so the frenchification of the name has always been taken to be humorous around here. The high school kids who can't find sloppy enough clothes while "thrifting", i.e. haunting thrift shops, buy cheap baggy things at Target or K-Mart. Is Target REALLY tonier than K-Mart in other regions? Tom "Oxfam" Clark Thomas L. Clark 702/895-3473 University of Nevada, Las Vegas (89154-5011) tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 21:42:58 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas, U of Tennessee" Subject: Re: Monkey Wards and Kame-apart -Reply Tom Clark, I seldom go near a K-Mart. But I hit a local Tarzhay (been saying that for at least ten years) at least once every couple of weeks. What do I buy there? Household, especially kitchen,items if I have not been to Sam's Club recently. Diet Cokes--always the lowest price in town. Shampoo/deodorant/etc. And inexpensive seasonal casual clothing, stuff you can ruin at the barn and thrown away at the end of the season. All of those are available at better prices at Sam's, but that's a major expedition, bcause the parking lot is always full, etc. Bethany Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. | Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Dep't of English, UT, Knoxville | EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower | (423) 974-6965 | FAX (423) 974-6926 Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 | See Webpage at http://hamlet.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Feb 1996 21:52:17 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: Risin' = boil (n.) 'Risin'' obviates the necessity of determining whether the reference is to a carbuncle or a boil. Useful word. DMLance ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Feb 1996 to 22 Feb 1996 ************************************************ There are 5 messages totalling 114 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Monkey Wards and Kame-apart -Reply (2) 2. Risin' = boil (n.) 3. subscribe 4. K-Marche ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 03:55:50 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA> Subject: Re: Monkey Wards and Kame-apart -Reply > I have seen a couple of comments about Target as being "a high-class place > to shop." I considered these comments to be litotes, or at least > ironic. The Target stores here are the same as K-mart, so the > frenchification of the name has always been taken to be humorous around > here. The high school kids who can't find sloppy enough clothes while > "thrifting", i.e. haunting thrift shops, buy cheap baggy things at > Target or K-Mart. Is Target REALLY tonier than K-Mart in other regions? the use of the french pronunciation is definitely ironic, but i do think target is slightly nicer than k-mart. i think this impression comes from the fact that target stores (being part of a newer chain, as far as i know) are usually in newer buildings in more recently developed parts of town. and, being newer, their store fixtures, shopping carts, etc. are also newer, and so seem nicer. i think these facts combined make me more likely to look for clothes at target than at k-mart. thriftily, lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 09:25:19 -0600 From: "Kathleen M. O'Neill" Subject: Re: Monkey Wards and Kame-apart -Reply Tom Clark spake thusly: >Is Target REALLY tonier than K-Mart in other regions? I've always thought of it as better than K-Mart, if for no other reason than because it is owned by the same company as Marshall Fields. And they do carry nicer budget home furnishings than the K. But I do have to admit I'm basing my judgments on observations of K-Mart that are at least 5 years old, since I haven't set foot in one for that long. I know they went through some restructuring in the past few years -- could be that their merchandise is as nice as Target's, for what that's worth. =^] ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ;Kathleen M. O'Neill ... Language Laboratory Technician I ; ;koneil1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uic.edu ... u55354[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uicvm.cc.uic.edu ; ;:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::; ;University of Illinois at Chicago ... Language Laboratory ; ;703 South Morgan Street (M/C 042) ... Grant Hall, Room 311 ; ;Chicago, IL 60607-7025 ; ;312.996.8838 or 8836 ... 312.996.5501 FAX ; ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;; ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 09:50:10 -0600 From: EJOHNSON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSUVX2.MEMPHIS.EDU Subject: Re: Risin' = boil (n.) No one has mentioned the pronunciation of 'risin'. The spelling would seem to indicate a high central vowel, while my grandmother (west Georgia) always said it with a schwa in the final syllable. Another of those words of hers I had not idea how to spell until I became a dialectologist. By the way, y'all and others sent too much mail while I was away last weekend and I was "disusered" acc. to the information services guru. Is this in use elsewhere? Ellen JOhnson ejohnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.memphis.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 11:42:30 EST From: DONNA BRUCE Subject: Re: subscribe PLEASE DELETE THIS ADDRESS FROM YOUR LIST. IT WAS ENTERED INCORRECTLY. THANK YOU. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 15:37:28 MST From: Tom Uharriet Subject: K-Marche . . . > The Target stores here are the same as K-mart, so the > frenchification of the name has always been taken to be humorous around > here. . . . > Thomas L. Clark Likewise, for the past several years, the frenchification of K-Marche has been taken humorously. Did I spell Marche right? K and Marche rime. I don't know how to mark accents on email. It is the same M word as the Bon Marche--however that one is spelt. Tom Uharriet utom[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]admn.shs.nebo.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Feb 1996 to 23 Feb 1996 ************************************************ There are 5 messages totalling 137 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. etymology: 'negro', 'necro' (2) 2. Monkey Wards and Kame-apart -Reply (2) 3. Prepositional complements ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 03:59:20 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: etymology: 'negro', 'necro' question from hel-l >Return-Path: >I believe 'negro' derives from a Latin root for 'black' and 'necro' >derives from a Latin root for 'death'. We see 'necrosis' for 'death >of living tissue' and 'necromancy' for 'divination / magic by use of >death'. Necrotic tissue is often dark or black as the result of said >necrosis. Could this be the source of the popular term '"black" >magic' for some perceived perpetration of evil through magical acts? > >Fundamental etymological issue: is there a link between 'necro' and >'negro'? > >Dick >ddawson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mailbox.syr.edu >http://web.syr.edu/~ddawson > > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 10:21:38 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA> Subject: Re: etymology: 'negro', 'necro' > question from hel-l i shudder to imagine who moderates "hel-l" > >I believe 'negro' derives from a Latin root for 'black' and 'necro' > >derives from a Latin root for 'death'. We see 'necrosis' for 'death > >of living tissue' and 'necromancy' for 'divination / magic by use of > >death'. Necrotic tissue is often dark or black as the result of said > >necrosis. Could this be the source of the popular term '"black" > >magic' for some perceived perpetration of evil through magical acts? well, first of all, _necro_ or _nekros_ is greek for 'corpse'. the latin for death is usually _mors_ (and for corpse is _cadaver_). i can't tell from the american heritage whether _nekros_ and _niger_ (latin for 'black') have the same IE source, since it doesn't seem to give a source for _niger_. i don't think this is a linguistic issue, but a more general semiotic kind of thing. there are probably multiple sources of the association of _black_ and evil. the dark is the unknown, we put our dead in the dark (if we bury), we associate dirtiness with darkness, and, as you note, most things turn dark when they rot. of course, black is not universally associated with death (e.g., in japan), but i don't think that the link was an arbitrary one forged by coincidentally similar-sounding words. i'd aver that "black magic" probably takes its metaphor from christian dichotomy of "the light" (christ/holy spirit) and "the darkness" (satan). dark magic serves the prince of darkness (or at least is believed to by christians). it's often claimed that the use of _black_ to mean evil things has its roots in eurocentrism/racism. the OED's first uses of _black_ to mean "evil" occur in the late 16th century, but then the OED's first citations of a lot of stuff aren't til that late just because earlier sources are scarce. certainly the link between darkness and evil has been exploited for racist purposes (i think of _the book of mormon_), but it's less likely, i think, that the 'evil' meaning was caused by european judgments of african "paganism". but, back to _black magic_, the term is often (but certainly not always) used to describe "magic" as performed by black people--as in voudou. from the whitest part of darkest africa, lynne --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 10:39:13 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Re: Monkey Wards and Kame-apart -Reply I generally shop at Target for convenience, but the new K-Marts (not the Super-Ks) are really nicer to shop in, and have a better quality selection of merchandise. The Super-Ks are too big and overstuffed, leaving you wandering around and wasting a lot of time trying to find things. However, the staff are better trained and more helpful than at Target (at least based on my experience). --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 14:40:00 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: Monkey Wards and Kame-apart -Reply A friend from cnWI recently said he knows Jason Penguins, for J.C. Penneys. Was that mentioned earlier? beth ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Feb 1996 13:54:55 CST From: Barbara Need Subject: Prepositional complements CROSS-POSTED TO: ANSAX-L, GERLINGL, OLDNORSENET, LINGUIST, CHAUCER, ADS-L, HEL-L I am trying to track down information about verbs with prepositional complements, such as the following I know about John She laughed at him My main interest is these structures in Old English and I have looked in Mitchell and Visser without much result. If anyone knows of any work done in this area (for any langauge: (Old) English, other Germanic languages, other non-Germanic languages), please let me know. If relevant, I will post a summary of responses to the net. Thanks in advance, Barbara Need University of Chicago--Linguistics barbara[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sapir.uchicago.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Feb 1996 to 24 Feb 1996 ************************************************ There are 6 messages totalling 436 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. ===>> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 295+ Popular USA Titles 2. Prepositional complements 3. lavender lgs IV wants YOU!!! 4. OE fonts 5. Ironic French pronunciations 6. more on gay lingo ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 Feb 1996 06:16:32 +0900 From: Allison Eng Subject: ===>> FREE 1 yr. Magazine Sub sent worldwide- 295+ Popular USA Titles [spam deleted] ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 00:38:44 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Re: Prepositional complements Barbara, I'd suggest you start with a search on the MLA bibliography, now on a CD-ROM back to 1961. The UC library probably has it. If not, let me know. Next I'd suggest you track down some of the bibliographies in my Bibliography of Bibliographies of the Languages of the World v. 1. Some of those, such as Matsuji Tajima (which covers back to 1923), Jacek Fisiak, and Yasui Minoru, are well classified. You may also want to check through issues of the Old English Newlsetter, which has an annual bibliography starting in 1969. It's also worth checking Dissertation Abstracts, which may be available online or on CD-ROM, since not all dissertations get published. I have one, for example, done on verb complements in an OE ms., from Texas back in the 1950s. In my biblio, be sure to check under Modern English as well, since some of those listed include Old English (e.g., the Annual Bibliography of English Language and Literature, which picks up in 1921 where Kennedy left off. I would also recommend a book by Juhani Rudanko on verb complements in modern English. He's one of the major specialists on the topic. --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 07:18:49 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA> Subject: lavender lgs IV wants YOU!!! i'm forwarding this from the out in linguistics list, since i got a lot of inquiries from this list on language of sexual minorities. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Sat, 24 Feb 96 16:03:46 EST From: william leap Organization: The American University Subject: lavender lgs IV wants YOU!!! To: outil[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csli.stanford.edu The Fourth American University Conference on Lavender Languages and Linguistics The American University, Washington DC September 27-29, 1996 Conference Announcement and Call for Papers This is the official announcement for the fall, 1996 Lavender Languages and Linguistics Conference, and your invitation to submit an abstract for inclusion in the conference program. As in previous years, the program committee welcomes submissions exploring any area of language, broadly defined, as it relates to lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgendered experience. Suitable topics include: descriptions of lavender conversation, details of l/g/b/t life story narrative, features of lavender vocabulary and metaphor; lavender languages at the intersections of race, class, and gender; co-sexual themes in oral, written, signed literature, lavender messages in art, photography, fashion, film, and other visual media; and lavender languages in history--or whatever lavender language topic is of greatest interest to you! Currently, two special panels are under development for the conference. One involves descriptive and theoretical papers exploring language and queer theory; the other continues last year's conversation on language and transgendered experience. Contact the program committee for more information on those sessions, or if you have a session you'd like to organize. Last year's conference had 48 presentations and 135 registered participants. We hope to have a program of comparable size, and to maintain the person-to-person, no- attitude atmosphere which has been so valuable to conference activities in previous years. To submit an abstract: Please send a 500 word description of your proposed presentation to the Program Committee at the s-mail, fax, or e-mail addresses below. To register for the conference: The registration fee is $10.00, payable at the door. Preregistration is not required, though the program committee is glad to hear from intended participants. Please do contact the program committee in advance, if you plan to attend the conference and have mobility, hearing, visual or other special needs. For more information, contact the Program Committee: s-mail: Lav Lgs IV, c/o Department of Anthropology, American University, Washington DC 20016. telephone/v-mail: 202-885-1831 fax: 202-885-1837 e-mail: wlm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]american/edu. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 05:04:03 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: OE fonts I presume somebody might enjoy this info and can use it. >Return-Path: >Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 01:50:55 -0500 >Errors-To: lhat[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ebbs.english.vt.edu >Reply-To: hel-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ebbs.english.vt.edu >Originator: hel-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ebbs.english.vt.edu >Sender: hel-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ebbs.english.vt.edu >Precedence: bulk >From: Carl Berkhout >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: OE fonts >X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas > >Earlier this evening Peter Baker announced a new, improved basket of his >Old English fonts (for both PC and Mac users). Brill. I've just >downloaded and played a bit with the Mac version. Although I haven't >yet experimented with every single character, it's clear that Peter >provides the best possible fonts for those of us who must use not only >thorns and eths but also other features in our roughly-diplomatic >transcriptions or citations of Anglo-Saxon manuscripts. All ten thumbs >up, Peter. Cheers. > >I attach below a slightly-abridged copy of Peter's posting to ANSAXNET, >which explains how to get the fonts. And, yes, the fonts are free. The >dot-com people don't rule the Internet quite yet. (Peter's Jefferson >Fontworx locale is facetious. You'll do better to look for him in UVA's >Dept of English.) > >Carl Berkhout > >> Just a word to tell the good ANSAXNET folks who have been using >> my "Old English Font Pack" that I have posted an upgrade on an >> ftp site here at the University of Virginia. Like earlier >> versions, this one includes "Junius," the seventeenth-century >> "Saxon" typeface, and "Junius Modern," which is like "Junius" but >> with modern letter-shapes substituted for insular ones and with a >> large number of special characters useful to students and >> scholars of Old English: vowels with macrons and breves, crossed >> thorn, yogh, many Latin suspensions, and so on. "Junius Modern" >> now comes in regular, italic, bold, and bold italic. This version >> also includes a typeface in the "Junius" style, but with the >> standard Macintosh or Windows character set; it is intended to >> enable you to type the non-Old-English parts of your document in >> a style compatible with that of "Junius" and "Junius Modern." >> >> The package still includes "Anglo-Saxon Caps" and "Beowulf-1," >> both fonts which imitate Old English script. >> >> The address of the ftp site is bowers.lib.virginia.edu; the >> directory is /pub/Baker (notice the capital). The site is >> accessible via Netscape (ftp://bowers.lib.virginia.edu/pub/Baker) >> or Fetch, or standard ftp. Login as "anonymous" and give your >> e-mail address as a password. Remember to set the file type to >> binary. >> >> The Macintosh files are self-extracting archives: download one of >> them to your computer and double-click it, and it will make a >> folder with the necessary files in it. You will need Pkunzip or >> the equivalent to extract the Windows files from the Zip >> archives. >> >> As always, these fonts are free. Happy computing! >> >> Peter Baker >> at the Jefferson Fontworx, Charlottesville, VA > > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 16:30:06 -0500 From: RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Ironic French pronunciations I have pronounced KROGER as [kro3e] (3 = the medial sound in *measure*) for 20 years. In my opinion, Kroger is the best supermarket chain in Durham, North Carolina; the irony, however, is more self-directed than I take it that [tar3e] for TARGET is, i.e., [kro3e] is where those who fancy ourselves as particularly earnest about "sophisticated" home dining go to purchase "our" foodstuffs. I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone other than gay men use the pronunciation--I know that I first heard it from a clever gay man in the 1970s. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 22:49:14 -0500 From: RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: more on gay lingo A few days ago, Kathleen M. O'Neill asked about publications dealing with the unique aspects of the speech of gays (if there are any). Did anyone think to mention william Leap's new book, WORD'S OUT: GAY MEN'S ENGLISH (U of Minnesota Press, 1996; ISBN#0-8166-2253-1)? Also useful should be the articles in BEYOND THE LAVENDER LEXICON, ed. William L. Leap (Gordon and Breach Publishing, 1995; ISBN#2-88449-181-3). ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Feb 1996 to 25 Feb 1996 ************************************************ There are 9 messages totalling 254 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. etymology: 'negro', 'necro' (3) 2. MLA 96, CALL FOR PAPERS 3. Kroger variations (3) 4. GURT '96 5. "Beg the Question"--another example ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 04:24:43 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Re: etymology: 'negro', 'necro' From: "Juris G. Lidaka" To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: etymology: 'negro', 'necro' X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas Well, a quick glance into Pokorny didn't come up with anything, but here's some details from the Barnhart Dict. of Etym.: Negro is said to be taken from Span. or Port. "negro," which itself is predictably from Lat. "niger" which is "of uncertain origin" necromancy in English seems to be an "alteration of Middle English _nigromaunce_..._nygromauncy_; borrowed from Old French _nigramancie, nigremance_, and directly from Medieval Latin _nigromantia_, from Late Latin _necromantia_ divination from an exhumed corpse, from Greek _nekromanteia_ (_nekros_ dead body + _manteia_ divination, oracle, from _manteuesthai_ to prophesy...). "The Middle English, Old French, and Medieval Latin spelling (_nigor_-) developed from association with Latin _niger_ black, necromancy being the black art. The modern spelling was an attempt to "correct" the spelling by returning to Late Latin _necromantia_." Of related interest, then, is "necrology...list of person who have died.... _Chambers Cyclopaedia_; borowed from New Latin _necrologia_, from Greek.... Greek _nekros_ is cognate with Sanskrit _nasyati_ (he) disappears, perishes. Latin _nex_ (genitive _necis_) violent death, _pernicies_ destruc- tion, _nocere_ to harm; from Indo-European _*nek-/nok-/nk-_ (Pok. 762)." Sorry, I just felt perniciously obliged to skip them thar die-acriticals. Unfortunately, there is no apparent connection here with "necktie," a device used by some to restrict blood flow to the brain, to inhibit normal breathing patterns, and, strangely, to prohibit the free movement of body heat, thus thrice negating normal functions for life. Pok. 762 may be independently consulted. The Ox. Lat. Dict. has no etymological info., nor does Lewis & Short. Perhaps someone who has Martin & Long can take a look-see? I have HEL tests to grade--and evidently my test was the discussion subject of almost every other up-div. Engl. class last week. Juris Juris G. Lidaka Dept. of English Lidaka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ernie.wvsc.wvnet.edu West Virginia State College ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 07:46:51 -0500 From: "Connie C. Eble" Subject: MLA 96, CALL FOR PAPERS CALL FOR PAPERS MODERN LANGUAGE ASSOCIATION (MLA), DEC. 27-30, 1996 WASHINGTON, D.C. LANGUAGE AND SOCIETY DIVISION Abstracts on any topic discussing the intersection of language and society are welcomed. Of particular interest are studies about language and gender and about sociolinguistics and technology. Send a one-page abstract by MARCH 22 to Connie Eble snail: English Dept., CB#3520, UNC-CH, CHapel Hill, NC 27599-3520 email: cceble[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]email.unc.edu fax: 919-962-3520 Presenters must be members of MLA by April 1, 1996. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 16:46:48 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" Subject: Kroger variations And then we have the "Fellini Kroger's" in north Knoxville. Anyone else got one? Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 08:54:59 -0800 From: Allen Maberry Subject: Re: etymology: 'negro', 'necro' Lynne wrote: > well, first of all, _necro_ or _nekros_ is greek for 'corpse'. the > latin for death is usually _mors_ (and for corpse is _cadaver_). i > can't tell from the american heritage whether _nekros_ and _niger_ > (latin for 'black') have the same IE source, since it doesn't seem to > give a source for _niger_. > I checked a few works on IE and found the root of the Greek nekros to be *nek-s which is cognate with the Latin nex, necis "violent death" and is found in the verbs neco and noceo (Frisk. Griechisches etymologisches Woerterbuch. Heidelberg, 1960-) A long entry on the Latin niger (Walde. Lateinisches etymologisches Woerterbuch. Heidelberg, 1938-1956) listed the etymology as uncertain and cited several theories, none connected with the Greek nekros or the IE *nek-s. Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 13:02:46 -0500 From: RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Kroger variations "Fellini Kroger?" I don't get it. Please explain. Is this a jocularity? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 13:32:39 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" Subject: Re: Kroger variations Ron Butters writes: ""Fellini Kroger?" I don't get it. Please explain. Is this a jocularity?" You sort of have to have been there, Ron! Yes, it's part jocularity--probably part warning. There are some very strange types that "shop" at that Kroger's. Weird hair colors show up with the north Knoxville skinvvies, etc. Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 19:37:42 -0500 From: GURT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: GURT '96 Georgetown University Round Table on Languages and Linguistics 1996 Linguistics, Language Acquisition, and Language Variation: Current Trends and Future Prospects March 14-16, 1996 ----------------------------------- To obtain GURT '96 information on the World Wide Web, use the following address: http://www.georgetown.edu/conferences/gurt96/gurt96.html ----------------------------------- To obtain GURT '96 information via e-mail, send e-mail to: gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.acc.georgetown.edu with the SUBJECT LINE : "get program", "get schedule", "get registration", or "get hotel". use "get program" to retrieve general information on GURT '96 use "get schedule" to retrieve a detailed schedule for GURT '96 use "get registration" to retrieve a registration form use "get hotel" to retrieve hotel information Please note that you can use "get program, schedule, .." to retrieve more than one file. ----------------------------------- For more information, please contact: Carolyn A. Straehle, GURT Coordinator International Language Programs and Research 306-U Intercultural Center e-mail: gurt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu voice: (202) 687-5726 fax: (202) 687-0699 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 22:55:12 -0500 From: RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "Beg the Question"--another example Here is the complete context--see last line for example. EDITOR'S NOTES by Dennis Ryerson, editor of The Des Moines Register [Sunday, February 25, 1996] WHY ARE WE SO FEARFUL? (excerpt) Why are we so full of fear? Why are we so fearful that an as-yet unmade Hawaii court ruling will mean the downfall of heterosexual marriage in Iowa? Why are we so fearful that English won't continue to be the prevailing language in Iowa? Why are we so fearful about allowing somebody, in the agonizing ending stages of a horrible disease or suffering from an injury from which there is no hope of recovery, to get help in ending his or her life? We are we so fearful that we are demanding our government pass laws in each of these areas?... ...What demonstrable threat is gay marriage to heterosexual marriage? Can anybody demonstrate that gay people make for less stable unions than heterosexual people?... ...Republicans, with some good reason, for years protested against Democratic moves toward "social engineering" and imposing government into so many aspects of our lives. But now it is the Republicans who are attempting to do a little social engineering. It is the get-government-out-of-our-lives Republicans who are pushing government into our personal lives. We can't leave it to individuals and their doctors to decide whether enough pain and suffering is enough. We want to prevent two people who love each other from protections and opportunities a legal marriage provides... ...It begs the question: Why are we all so fearful? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 20:41:20 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Re: etymology: 'negro', 'necro' Does this mean that "neking" is kissing corpses? Lynne wrote: >> well, first of all, _necro_ or _nekros_ is greek for 'corpse'. the >> latin for death is usually _mors_ (and for corpse is _cadaver_). i >> can't tell from the american heritage whether _nekros_ and _niger_ >> (latin for 'black') have the same IE source, since it doesn't seem to >> give a source for _niger_. >> >I checked a few works on IE and found the root of the Greek nekros to be >*nek-s which is cognate with the Latin nex, necis "violent death" and is >found in the verbs neco and noceo (Frisk. Griechisches etymologisches >Woerterbuch. Heidelberg, 1960-) >A long entry on the Latin niger (Walde. Lateinisches etymologisches >Woerterbuch. Heidelberg, 1938-1956) listed the etymology as uncertain and >cited several theories, none connected with the Greek nekros or the IE >*nek-s. >Allen >maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu > > ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Feb 1996 to 26 Feb 1996 ************************************************ There are 2 messages totalling 108 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Changes to the English Language (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 20:16:10 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Changes to the English Language >Return-Path: >Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:31:37 -0500 >Errors-To: lhat[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ebbs.english.vt.edu >Reply-To: hel-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ebbs.english.vt.edu >Originator: hel-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ebbs.english.vt.edu >Sender: hel-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ebbs.english.vt.edu >Precedence: bulk >From: dan.mosser[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]vt.edu (Dan Mosser) >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: Changes to the English Language >X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas > >I received this from my web page (HEL) and thought some of you might have >some juicy stuff for this toastmaster from Citicorp... > > >>Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 19:24:12 -0800 >>From: "Charles M. Anderson" >>Organization: Citicorp >> >>I am doing a 5 minute presentation for Toastmasters about the changes >>being made to English. (The audience is mostly >>English-as-the-second-language Citibankers) The emphasis is that a >>language that does not change is dead. For research, I am trying to >>locate a list of changes made in the last 10-20 years - I wish to keep >>the speech lively. Any suggestions would greatly be appreciated. >> >>Cheers, >> >>Charles Anderson > > ...Dan Mosser > VOICE (540) 231-7797 > FAX (540) 231-5692 > [NOTE change of area code from 703] > > > > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 20:33:50 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Re: Changes to the English Language >Reply-To: hel-l[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ebbs.english.vt.edu > >For research, I am trying to >>locate a list of changes made in the last 10-20 years - I wish to keep >>the speech lively. Any suggestions would greatly be appreciated. >> >>Cheers, >> >>Charles Anderson > >In the last 20 years Valley Girl slang has come and gone (gag me out the >door, etc.) and has been replaced by the slang used by the Gap girls on >Saturday Night Live (And I'm all `Give me a break' and he's all...). > >The process of conversion is alive and well. Note the tendency of adjectives >to become nouns on the evening traffic report (`Traffic's been slowed by a >disabled on the on-ramp of the BW Parkway,' `Those two disableds have been >cleared from the outer loop,' etc.). > >And what about all the computer jargon that has become mainstream: interfacing, >etc. > >Sincerely, >Edwin Duncan ===== n Tue, 27 Feb 1996, Edwin Duncan wrote: > And what about all the computer jargon that has become mainstream: interfacing, > etc. That makes me think of the new verb "to access." I knew quite a few people who were pretty bent out of shape over that one. Brian Zahn bzahn01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.orion.org ==== From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu Several competing adversiting agencies here in neIN suggest that, if one has a company "in a high traffic area", one could "get some impact" by placing a banner in front of the building. I think "impact" n & v are still changing. beth simon ========== This part of the atrocity sometimes called 'the verbing of America'. I think there's a book of that name. Dick ddawson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mailbox.syr.edu http://web.syr.edu/~ddawson ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Feb 1996 to 27 Feb 1996 ************************************************ There are 9 messages totalling 230 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Changes to the English Language 2. GAY (Changes to the English Language) (6) 3. child of god 4. UNSUBSCRIBE PLEASE ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:26:12 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf Subject: Re: Changes to the English Language _People_ magazine 20th anniversary issue (spring 1994, I think) has an astute and amusing glossary of the vocabulary of the past 20 years. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 13:19:16 MST From: Tom Uharriet Subject: GAY (Changes to the English Language) When & why did the word "GAY" change from homosexual to male homosexual? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 15:42:07 -0500 From: Stewart Mason Subject: Re: GAY (Changes to the English Language) Tom Uharriet asks: >When & why did the word "GAY" change from homosexual to male >homosexual? > Fairly recently--within the last five years or so, I believe. In various courses I took for my Women's Studies minor, the general consensus was that "gay and lesbian" was both more inclusive and more specific. It sounds perfectly reasonable to me. Stewart ______________________________________ Stewart Allensworth Mason Technical Editor, Access Innovations, Inc. Albuquerque NM http://www.homeless.com/homepages/masons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ziavms.enmu.edu.html Current screen saver phrase: "I'm still here, Happer..." ***COOL WORDS*** 1. Gingersnap 2. Gurgle 3. Balsamic 4. Venerated 5. Whap-a-dang (So it's not a word. It's still cool.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 13:50:58 -0800 From: Arnold Zwicky Subject: Re: GAY (Changes to the English Language) tom uharriet asks when GAY shifted from meaning 'homosexual' to meaning 'male homosexual'. stewart mason suggests it's very recent, in the past five years. first, the meaning hasn't shifted. the word is ambiguous between the wider reference (all homosexuals) and the narrower (just the central instances, male homosexuals); in this the word is like ANIMAL, which is ambiguous between the wider reference (all animals, including human beings) and the narrower (just the central instances, non-human anomals; we are rather reluctant to admit that we are animals). second, the ambiguity has been around a long time. it was there when the modern gay liberation movement began. i can say this because i was there; already in 1970 there was considerable discussion as to whether GAY was sufficiently inclusive of lesbians (and whether it should be, etc.). my references on the subject are back in ohio, but i would be very surprised if the ambiguity didn't go back well before the stonewall moment (which was, indeed, crystallizing, but it was scarcely the beginning of the world). third, all such ambiguities tend to be problematic in many contexts. hearers will go for the more specific reading, because it is more informative, unless context absolutely prevents them from doing so. (in the particular case at hand, this tendency is reinforced by the well-known phenomenon of "lesbian invisibility"; even the adjective HOMOSEXUAL calls up images of *male* homosexuals.) all this is about the *adjective* GAY. now, many lgb-folk are not particularly comfortable with using GAY as a noun (i hope i have never uttered the sentence I AM A GAY), though i believe the usage is spreading. since this is not my dialect, i'm reluctant to report on it, but i believe that there is a much stronger tendency to view the noun GAY as male-only than to view the adjective GAY this way. that is, i believe it's much harder to get a lesbian or two into the picture if you say THERE WERE LOTS OF GAYS AT THE PARTY than if you say THERE WERE LOTS OF GAY PEOPLE AT THE PARTY. in any case, given the tendency for hearers to go for the narrower reading, it makes sense to enumerate the groups in question, if you want to be inclusive. the same instinct that leads the careful person to say or write ANIMALS, INCLUDING HUMAN BEINGS or HUMAN BEINGS AND OTHER ANIMALS will lead such a person to say or write LESBIAN AND GAY STUDENTS or LESBIANS AND GAY MEN. (of course, doing so only accelerates the tendency to see LESBIAN and GAY as opposed to one another, and hence to see even the adjective GAY as male-only. linguistic change presses on.) arnold zwicky (zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ohio-state.edu OR zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csli.stanford.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:02:24 -0500 From: RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: GAY (Changes to the English Language) I have done a good deal of research on the question of when GAY began to take on the connotations 'homosexual'. I have an article on the subject which is virtually complete (I gave earlier versions at the Dictionary Society of America meeting last summer and at the Lavender Language Conference last fall). The best SHORT treatment is found in the new RANDOM HOUSE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG, vol. 1. The best published LONG treatment is found in George Chauncey's GAY NEW YORK. Everyone agrees that the earliest definitive citing is in Gershon Legman's 1941 lexicon of homosexual terminology, where he lists GAY as used in this way only by members of the "homosexual subculture"; it seems to have been unknown to the general public, even in major metropolitan areas of the United States. Many people also believe that Gertrude Stein used the term with this meaning in the 1920s in "Miss Furr and Miss Skeen," though I find that dubious myself. Chauncey and RANDOM HOUSE SLANG DICT. both repeat the commonly held theory that Cary Grant was using the term to mean 'homosexual' in a famous scene in the movie BRINGING UP BABY (1938). Again, I am dubious, though whether or not that is what Grant had in mind (the use was apparently an ad lib) his uttering of the phrase "I've just gone gay" as a way of explaining why he was wearing a dress doubtless greatly amused large numbers of members of the "homosexual subculture" and may even have helped spread the term (though the movie was not wildly popular when it was first released). Anyway, the short answer to the question is, "GAY was certainly used by homosexuals as an arcane adjective of self-reference in the 1930s, at least in major metropolitan centers of the United States. It spread socially and geographically throughout the 1940s, 1950s, and 1960s. It is interesting to note (Chauncey reports) that many homosexual men in the 1940s resisted the new term, preferring instead to refer to themselves as FAIRIES or QUEERS. GAY seemed too trivial. Moreover, there was a common slang sense of GAY in the United States that meant what CHEEKY and OUT OF LINE mean today (i.e., 'brash', 'overbearing'). This is probably more than most of you wanted to know. If you want to know even more, I'll be happy to send you a copy of my article ("What Did Cary Grant Know and When Did He Know I?") as soon as I put the final finishing touches on it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:27:19 -0400 From: "Bethany K. Dumas, U of Tennessee" Subject: Re: GAY (Changes to the English Language) 1. Ron, I'd very much like to receive your article when it's ready for distribution. 2. When I was a first-year graduate student, I took a seminar in Wm. Faulker in the Spring (this is 1960). One night we met at the prof's house for an informal session. Somehow the word "queer" came up for discussion. After a while, a male student (not gay, so far as I know) told of going into a hotel bar in Memphis a year or two before (he was alone for some reason) on New Year's Eve. He reported that at one point a male at the bar asked him if he were gay. He, slightly giddy (it WAS NYE), thought the person meant "happy" and replied "Oh, yes ... etc. etc." I don't remember exactly what the other male said or did next that let my friend know that he had misunderstood the question, but he reported that the incident was his introduction to gay as meaning homosexual. The professor then told us that he had never heard the word in that sense. I was surprised, though now that I think back, I suspect that I had known that meaning of the word for only a couple of years. Bethany K. Dumas, J.D., Ph.D. | Applied Linguistics, Language & Law Dep't of English, UT, Knoxville | EMAIL: dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu 415 McClung Tower | (423) 974-6965 | FAX (423) 974-6926 Knoxville, TN 37996-0430 | See Webpage at http://hamlet.la.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:31:23 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: child of god Is the assertion, "I'm a Child of God" new? Does it mean baptized? Reborn? Is it limited to Protestants? Subgroups of Protestants? Is it only American? etc. Thanks, Beth Simon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 22:09:35 -0500 From: Dennis Baron Subject: Re: GAY (Changes to the English Language) Ron, I'd very much like to see your article when it's ready. Perhaps you would be willing to post it? Dennis Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English office: 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 S. Wright Street home: 217-384-1683 Urbana, IL 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 23:25:34 -0500 From: Mary Elizabeth Williams Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE PLEASE Dear Whoever, I would like to unsubscribe to this, but do not know how. If someone would please tell me I would be very thankful. Mary Beth Williams ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Feb 1996 to 28 Feb 1996 ************************************************ There are 19 messages totalling 880 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. child of god (3) 2. GAY (Changes to the English Language) (3) 3. Oxymorons 4. child of God (2) 5. koofer 6. Child of God 7. Addition to Web Pages (4) 8. Bounced Mail 9. 10. Question: regional volubility 11. gaycat, gay ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 00:02:57 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: child of god In response to Beth's query, >Is the assertion, "I'm a Child of God" new? Does it mean baptized? >Reborn? Is it limited to Protestants? Subgroups of Protestants? >Is it only American? The Children of God were a cult group, a Christian sect with as I recall rather idiosyncratic doctrines and practices, back in the '70's. My memory of them is mostly due to a linguist friend who linked up with them and then died under somewhat mysterious circumstances, so I might be being uncharitable, although I should acknowledge that I don't trust even mainstream religious groups all than much. "Child of God" sounds like a back-formation to me, but then that would be the singular, wouldn't it? I don't know if the asserter in question was in fact (purporting to be) a member of this group or just meant s/he was in fact a (lower-case) child of God. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 08:23:09 +0200 From: Pete Buchy Subject: Re: child of god > Is the assertion, "I'm a Child of God" new? Does it mean baptized? > Reborn? Is it limited to Protestants? Subgroups of Protestants? > Is it only American? I'm not sure, but it may not be specific. Remember, under general Christian belief, we're all "God's Children". Pete Buchy E-mail: pbuchy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.abo.fi Emmausgatan 7. O 68 A WWW: http://www.abo.fi/~pbuchy FIN-20380 Ebo Tel: 921/2385256 FINLAND Mobile: 940/5566492 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 03:16:48 -0500 From: "M. Lynne Murphy" <104LYN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MUSE.ARTS.WITS.AC.ZA> Subject: Re: GAY (Changes to the English Language) > Tom Uharriet asks: > > >When & why did the word "GAY" change from homosexual to male > >homosexual? > > > stewart mason says: Fairly recently--within the last five years or so, I believe. In various > courses I took for my Women's Studies minor, the general consensus was that >gay and lesbian" was both more inclusive and more specific. It sounds > perfectly reasonable to me. > the fact that people only recently started using "gay and lesbian" a lot doesn't mean that _gay_ only recently started having a male-only sense. (the masculinization of _gay_, _homosexual_, and _queer_ is another issue I discuss in the "elusive bisexual" paper i mentioned last week.) i don't think there's any reason to believe that the word ever didn't have a male-only sense (note: it has never, including now, _only_ had a male-only sense). there are a couple of possible sources for the male-favoring polysemy. first, any word that isn't overtly feminine in its form or connotation is apt to get male-only as well as gender neutral sense or connotation (e.g., waiter, poet, negro (vs. negress)). second, gay male community and identity has received much more public notice than its lesbian counterpart (if we can pretend at a little symmetry). thus, when (non-lesbians) talk about gay people, they are often refering exclusively to the gay people they are familiar with--men. in "the elusive bisexual" i note that w/in the sexual minority communities, _bisexual_ is the only sex-neutral term that i know of that has gained a female bias--probably because bisexual identity and activism has most strongly been touted in women's organizations (i have some theories on that too. hell, i have an opinion on everything.) HOWEVER, in AIDS discourse, 'bisexual' has come to have the same male-only type of sense as 'homosexual' and 'gay.' i could give examples, if anyone's interested. best, lynne m. --------------------------------------------------------------------- M. Lynne Murphy 104lyn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]muse.arts.wits.ac.za Department of Linguistics phone: 27(11)716-2340 University of the Witwatersrand fax: 27(11)716-8030 Johannesburg 2050 SOUTH AFRICA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 04:50:58 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: Oxymorons Someone claims this is a complete list of Oxymorons. I doubt it. What are some of yours? Oxymoron is not a photo of a mentally weak hispanic and his bovine pet. "Anarchy rules!" "Free with purchase" "Happy Monday" "One size fits all" "Slow children" (sign with a picture of a running child) "Thank God I'm an Atheist" "This page intentionally left blank" A little big Academic sorority Accordion music Accurate stereotype Act naturally Advanced BASIC Aerobic exercise Affirmative action, equal opportunity Aging yuppie Airline food Almost exactly Alone together American beer American chop suey American culture American education American English American geographers American history American Honda Americans Apple tech support Arms limitation Art student Artificial intelligence Athletic scholarship Australian spelling Automated data processing Back to the future Bad health Balding hair Bankrupt millionaire Better than new Black light Boring orgasm Brave politician British fashion Budget deficit Bug free code Business ethics Butthead Cafeteria food California culture California expressway Canadian culture Casual intimacy Catproof Central Intelligence Agency Centrally-planned economy Cheerful pessimist Childproof Christian education Christian militia Christian Scientists Church of Scientology Civil engineer Civil servant Civil libertarian Civil war Classic rock & roll Clean dirt Clean hack Clearly confused Clearly misunderstood Clinton leadership Coca-Cola Foods Coed fraternity/sorority Collective liberty College algebra College education Colored music Committee schedule Committee decision Common sense Communist Party Completely unfinished Compulsory volunteering Computer science Computer jock Computer security Congressional ethics Congressional oversight Conservative Democrat Conspicuous absence Constant change Construction worker Convenience store Cooperative multitasking Corporate planning Cost effective Country music Courtesy towing Creation science Curved line Customer satisfaction CNN style Debugged program Debutante ball Decent lawyer Definite maybe Degradable plastic Democratic Congress Department of the Interior Desktop publishing Diet ice cream Dining hall food Disco music Down escalator/elevator Dress pants Driving pleasure Dry beer Dry ice Dry wine DOS operating system Economic reform Electroshock therapy English syntax Enquiring minds Environmentalist bumper sticker Ergonomic keyboard European Community Evolutionary fact Exact estimate Executive decision Express bus Express mail Fair reporting Fair trial Fallout shelter Family entertainment Fast food Federal budget Fighting for peace Final version First annual First-strike defense Flat-busted Flexible freeze Football scholarship Forth programming language Found missing "Four corners of a round table" Free election Free electron laser Free love Freezer burn French culture Fresh frozen Friendly advice Friendly competitor Friendly fire Full-length bikini Full service Functional manager Funny clean joke Fuzzy logic Gay drill sergeant Genuine imitation Good grief Good mother-in-law Good Alan Rudolph film Government aid/assistance Government efficiency Government organization Graduate student Great Britain Guest host Gunboat diplomacy Half dead Happily married Hard disk Hard water Hazardous waste disposal Helicopter flight Higher education Holy Roman Empire Holy War Honest crook Honest politician House Ethics Committee Huge market niche Human evolution Indecent exposure Industrial park Institutional Revolutionary Party Intelligent lifeforms Internal Revenue Service IBM compatible Journalistic accuracy Journalistic integrity Jumbo shrimp Just in Time (JIT) Justice Rehnquist Justice Thomas Kentucky Fried Chicken Kosher ham Lace-up loafers Lebanese government Legal brief Legal ethics Legally drunk Liberal Party (conservative) Liberal, Kansas Liquid crystal Literal interpretation Living dead Long Island Expressway Male compassion Management science Management support Management action Management style Marketing strategy Married life Martial law Math teacher Mature student McDonalds dinner Medicaid payment Medical ethics Microsoft Works Middle East peace process Military intelligence Militart justice Military peace Modified final judgement Monopoly Moral Majority Mutual attraction Mutually exclusive New Classic New Democrat New Mexico Nice cat Noble savage Non-alcoholic beer Non-denominational church Nonworking mother Now, then Nuclear defense Objective parent Oddly appropriate OpenVMS Operating system Operation Rescue Pacific Ocean Paperless office Partly pregnant Passive aggression Peace force Peace officer PeaceMaker missile People's Democratic Republic Of Yemen Personal computer Petty cash Philosophy science Plastic glasses Pocket calculator Police protection Polite cabbie Political leadership Political science Politically correct Poor Republican Pop art Portable standard Lisp Postal Service Pot luck Practical logic Precision bombing Presidential promises Pretty ugly Private e-mail Productivity committee Professional courtesy Progressive Conservative Proprietary standard Psychiatric care Public school education Quality assurance Quality service Quebec intellectual QuickBASIC Quick fix Quick reboot R & D Rap music Rapid transit Rare steak Reagan memoirs Real fantasy Realistic schedule Realtime computing Reasonable female Recently new Reckless caution Red Indians Relativistic correction Religious education Religious fact Religious tolerance Religious science Republican initiative Resident alien Responsible committee Restrained grandparent Rolling stop Rush hour Russian economy Safe sex Same difference Sanitary landfill Satisfied Democrat Saving price Savings & loan School food Scottish Danish (actual pastry sold at 7-11) Sedate sex Semi truck Semi-boneless ham Senate Ethics Committee Sensitive male Severely/slightly killed Silent scream Small crowd Smart bomb Smart drugs Social Security Social science Soft rock Software documentation Software engineering Solid glass Southern justice Spare rib Speed limit Sports sedan Stealth bomber Straight hook Student athlete Student teacher Summer school Supporting documentation Sweet sorrow Swiss Steak Synthetic natural gas Tame cat Taped live Tax return Television critic Temporary tax increase Terribly pleased Terminal initialization Tight slacks Tone color Total Quality Management (TQM) True gossip True story Unbiased journalism Unbiased news reports Unbiased opinion Unbiased predisposition Uncontested divorce Understanding banker Understanding UNIX Union workers United States University of Nevada at Las Vegas UNIX security Unsalted Saltines User friendliness User-friendly war Vegetable beef soup Ventura Freeway Violent agreement Virtual reality Voting power Waiting patiently War games War hero Wilderness management Windows NT (New Technology) Wonder Bread Woods Metal Working vacation Young Floridian Yummy sushi 10K fun run 12-ounce pound cake 6502-based computer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 04:55:43 -0800 From: SETH SKLAREY Subject: child of God For child of God references, check out: http://www.altavista.digital.com/cgi-bin/query?pg=q&what=web&fmt=.&q=child+o f+god ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 07:38:57 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: child of god Yes, I should have been more specific. I'm asking about the phrase, with lower case, "child of God," as in I'm a sophomore, baptized, and a child of God. or (on TCT, one of the weekly preachers, in soliciting for pledges, goes, "Child of God, Listen to me. God has a plan for you. He wants you to be debt free. Child of God, do you hear me?" How widespread? Who is using it? Who is being distinguished from whom? "God's children" isn't turning up in the same places, same conversations, etc. (It's in some of my creative writing student's work - - "Susan had long blond hair, a blue Pontiac, and was a child of God". It's not just being used in private.) thanks, beth ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:09:53 -0800 From: "Thomas L. Clark" Subject: koofer After the midterm today, a grad student, originally from Virginia Tech, asked if the exams were not beign returned because of koofers. I was blank. She said at VT koofer meant "old test" and copies of them were kept in koofer files in dorms, frats, ROTC offices. Is this widespread college slang, Connie? Thomas L. Clark 702/895-3473 University of Nevada, Las Vegas (89154-5011) tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:11:21 -0500 From: Al Futrell Subject: Re: GAY (Changes to the English Language) Dave Maurer wrote about "gaycats" in the early forties in relation to the young boys who hung out with "junkers" and with "boxmen." Nels Anderson mentioned gaycats (I think) in his work on the hobo in the teens and early 20's. On data I used in my dissertation dating back to the first part of the 20th century I ran across the use of gaycat as the catamites kept by hobos and boxmen. Partridge mentions it in one of his dictionaries. The term is certainly not new. Referring to homonsexuals it has been used throughout the 20th century at least and probably even earlier. One problem with lexicography is that lexicographers often forget that a term is probably used for a long time before some journalist or egghead decides to write it down. Well, we frequently date things (granted, because there is no other way to do it) from the time they first appear in print. I have always thought this is screwy, but then I was a student of Dave Maurer's and he was a life long believer in the "living language" and thought that it was more fun, interesting, and important to study.... Al Futrell -- awfutr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]homer.louisville.edu -- http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01 Dept of Communication -- University of Louisville ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:26:41 EST From: Steven Heffner <74754.517[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: child of God Here a a few biblical references: Romans 8:15ff "...When we cry 'Abba! Father!' it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs..." I John 3:1 "See what love the Father has given us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are." But contrary to these New Testament uses, my grandmother (a Norwegian Lutheran) used to use the phrase "God's children" to mean "Jews" or "Isrealites." Steven ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:22:05 EST From: Patricia Kuhlman Subject: Child of God The recent discussion of the term child of god in religious context brought to mind a more secular usage in Joni Mitchell's song, "Woodstock" (1969): I came upon a child of God He was walking along the road And I asked him, where are you going And this he told me I'm going down to Yasgur's farm I'm going to join in a rock 'n' roll band I'm going to camp out on the land And try an' get my soul free We are stardust We are golden And we've got to get ourselves Back to the garden ... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 10:25:33 -0700 From: Rudy Troike Subject: Re: GAY (Changes to the English Language) Ron, Thanks for the historical information. I can attest that the term had spread to Austin, Texas by the early 1950s, as I first heard it then from a female student who was peripherally associated with the local UT group. Rudy --Rudy Troike (rtroike[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccit.arizona.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:29:15 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Addition to Web Pages Thanks to a magic program Allan found to convert the NADS copy to html, the January newsletter is now available at our web sit (http://www. msstate.edu/Archives/ADS/). I just put it place and have noticed one minor glitch that I'll fix in a little while (when I get back from a meeting I'm almost late for) -- the glitch I noticed is some misplaced parts (a list of committee appointees is suddenly chopped off and continues in the midst of budget figures a bit later in the document). If you notice other glitches, please let me know. I haven't read the whole thing yet. I got it from Allan via e-mail, tossed it onto the web, and took one very quick peek at it, cursing the fact that other obligations now call me away from the fun of net stuff. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:33:24 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Bounced Mail **************************************************************** REMINDER: WHEN INCLUDING A PREVIOUS LIST POSTING IN SOMETHING YOU'RE SENDING TO THE LIST, BE SURE TO EDIT OUT ALL REFERENCES TO ADS-L IN THE HEADERS. **************************************************************** > Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 12:14:23 -0500 > From: "L-Soft list server at UGA (1.8b)" > Subject: ADS-L: error report from EMAIL.UNC.EDU > >The enclosed message, found in the ADS-L mailbox and shown under the spool ID >3898 in the system log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice >for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to >the list has been found in mail body. > >-------------------- Message in error (42 lines) -------------------------- > Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 11:22:43 -0500 (EST) > From: "Connie C. Eble" > Subject: Re: koofer > > I have never received the term koofer from a student at the University of > North Carolina--nor have I ever heard of it. As a matter of fact, I have > never recieved any terms for 'files of tests' and precious few for > cheating of any kind. But I will ask this semester's students when they > return from break. > Connie > > On Wed, 28 Feb 1996, Thomas L. Clark wrote: > > > Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 21:09:53 -0800 > > From: Thomas L. Clark > > Subject: koofer > > > > After the midterm today, a grad student, originally from Virginia Tech, > > asked if the exams were not beign returned because of koofers. > > > > I was blank. She said at VT koofer meant "old test" and copies of them > > were kept in koofer files in dorms, frats, ROTC offices. > > > > Is this widespread college slang, Connie? > > > > Thomas L. Clark 702/895-3473 > > University of Nevada, Las Vegas (89154-5011) > > tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 13:29:25 -0800 From: "Thomas L. Clark" Subject: Re: Addition to Web Pages I'd like to hear more about Allan's magic device for converting NADS text to HTML. Thomas L. Clark 702/895-3473 University of Nevada, Las Vegas (89154-5011) tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 14:31:07 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Re: Addition to Web Pages > msstate.edu/Archives/ADS/). I just put it place and have noticed one > minor glitch that I'll fix in a little while (when I get back from a If any of you looked at the online NADS between when I wrote the above and a few minutes ago, I bet you laughed at my mention of "one minor glitch." The converter program seemed to freak out at page breaks and column breaks, resulting in lots of misplaced parts. Putting it together was kind of like working a jigsaw puzzle, something I must admit I find fun. > If you notice other glitches, please let me know. I haven't read the This request still stands. I'm aware of some of the little problems (e.g., stray spaces, sometimes in the middle of words -- those spaces are from the line breaks in the printed copy). I'll try to clean up some of those infelicities this weekend. As I told Allan in e-mail a little while ago, I think it's not bad for our first attempt. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 18:24:39 -0500 From: RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Al Futrell is right, of course, about GAYCAT dating from the earlier part of the century than GAY 'homosexual' (as I recall, the OED recortds it)--and he is definitely right that new words and meanings are used in speech long before they are written down (though I don't think that any lexicographer I know of would dispute that). However: 1. I think it extremely unlikely that GAY 'homosexual' is related to the term GAYCAT that Al describes; and 2. Even written transcripts of likely conversations from the 1930s and earlier do not use GAY 'homosexual'--nor do any of the gay cult novels of the 1920s and 1930s--though they do use GAY often in other senses. (RANDOM HOUSE DICTION ARY OF SLANG lists one possible cite from such a novel, but I dispute it and it is at gesrt ambiguous.) For all of those who have asked for a copy of my article ("What Did Cary Grant Know and When; Did He Know It?"): I will post it as an attached file later on this month when I get home from Florida. I'm flattered at your interest. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 17:31:06 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Re: Addition to Web Pages > I'd like to hear more about Allan's magic device for converting NADS text > to HTML. Allan will have to answer that. The more I think about it, however, the less convinced I am that the conversion program produced a document that took any less time to get into finished html form than an ascii document would have taken. My fingers are pretty fast at flying through ascii documents entering all the html coding with good old vi. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 20:48:51 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf Subject: Question: regional volubility Does the rapidity of speech vary from place to place? I got this question from a writer for "Walking" magazine. My impression is that rapidity is an individual, not regional or dialectal, characteristic. But I don't know of any studies to support or refute this impression. Do you? (I'm not looking for anecdotal evidence; I know many people believe that folks in one place or another speak fast or slow. My question is, do they really?) Thanks - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 22:04:36 -0500 From: Al Futrell Subject: Re: gaycat, gay > 1. I think it extremely unlikely that GAY 'homosexual' is related to the term > GAYCAT that Al describes; and I notice that Ron offers no evidence besides his own belief on this. He doesn't dispute that gaycat was a term used for homosexual (albeit a special type of homosexual), but he feels that any connection between gaycat and gay is unlikely. Why is it unlikely? The quotation below explains that the term was not part of the subculture, perhaps, but that doesn't mean there isn't a connection. Terms often take on different connotations once they enter the lexicon of a subgroup. "Gaycat" may not have been part of the "homosexual" lexicon and thus wouldn't appear in cult novels, but it was a term used by criminals to refer to homosexuals. It doesn't look like much of a stretch to clip it back to "gay." Maurer collected "gay" in the 40's within the drug subculture. I am curious as to why Ron feels that the two terms have separate etymologies. "Gay" has a long history of being a term of derision with sexual overtones. A "gay house" has long been a brothel. Grose (at least the 1811 rewrite) has a "gaying instrument" for penis. Henley and Farmer list several uses of "gay" in the 19th century, all of which relate to venery, including "avoir la cuisse gaie: to be addicted to the use of men." Clearly, some uses of "gay" refer to women, but always to women of questionable morals (strumpet, prostitute, mistress). In that regard I would note that the underworld used the term 'gal-boy' and 'gaycat' to mean the same thing. A gaycat was a passive pederast, much like a "punk" is in prison, and performed a task not unlike that which prostitutes perform. It is not surprising that the term would NOT be used by the homosexual community, but it seems quite surprising that given these uses of "gay" and "gaycat" that in the 20th century we would conclude no common history.... I confess that I haven't done a full scale search for the term, as Ron may have, and I certainly haven't studied it in a context that he write about, but what little I know about it seems to suggest to me that "gay" and "gaycat" have some common roots. > 2. Even written transcripts of likely conversations from the 1930s and > earlier do not use GAY 'homosexual'--nor do any of the gay cult novels of the > 1920s and 1930s--though they do use GAY often in other senses. (RANDOM HOUSE > DICTION ARY OF SLANG lists one possible cite from such a novel, but I dispute > it and it is at gesrt ambiguous.) Al Futrell - al[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]spieler.comm.louisville.edu University of Louisville - Department of Communication http://www.louisville.edu/~awfutr01 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Feb 1996 to 29 Feb 1996 ************************************************ .