There are 14 messages totalling 252 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. th/dh (4) 2. Half Past the Hour (2) 3. noon and points around it 4. Mail Order / Pin-Pen / LAGS 5. dialect diversity 6. pen/hail/half past (3) 7. half past (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Dec 1993 00:14:24 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: th/dh I hear [hawsIs] from all sorts of people. When I first noticed it in my Texas nephews' speech I thought it might have been from Chicano influence, but I've since decided that's not the case at all. The same people who have /s/ in the plural of house also tend to keep the voiceless fricative in the plural of bath. I think the pattern is being lost. It's not just spelling pronunciation. Many of my students say they say the -t- in soften as well as often, but not after other vowels. They might say the -t- in glisten but not in listen, so in this case spelling is a culprit. What's being said about th/dh, I think, explains why so many students have so much trouble transcribing these words. Make up any new word and you'll find that the Old English pattern still exerts some influence on the system. Thuke would have to have a voiceless consonant, but voother could analogize to either or to ether. I ask my students to make up words when we're discussing this matter. Often someone will make up a word like thuke and say it with the voiced consonant. I don't repeat the word but immediately ask the class to repeat the word. Only those sitting next to the neologizer will say the word with the voiced fricative. For the final -th/dh, of course, spelling isn't a culprit that causes bad things but is an aid--for verbs, that is, but not for plurals of nouns. And have y'all come across the technical term in nursing -- to bath a baby -- in which the voiceless fricative is used? DMLance