Subject: ADS-L Digest - 30 Nov 1997 to 1 Dec 1997 There are 34 messages totalling 845 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. of(t)en (2) 2. "Oh!" & "Ah!" 3. "Ich bin ein Berliner" (2) 4. TODAY'S NYTIMES (2) 5. english-spanish radio ad 6. transcription of talking in tongues 7. Berliner; pancake turners, spatulas, scrapers; slider (3) 8. V Not for Victory (2) 9. RE english-spanish radio ad (3) 10. "Something Big Is Going to Happen" 11. At Their Web Site (4) 12. Re : 'Secret Languages' 13. Trouble Hunters on WHEELS (3) 14. goo 15. absquatulate/obsquatulate 16. Re[2]: Trouble Hunters on WHEELS 17. Re[2]: At Their Web Site 18. Mobelian (sp?) (2) 19. Mobelian (sp?) Mobilian -Reply 20. "Ich bin ein Berliner." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 00:04:01 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: of(t)en At 04:05 PM 11/30/97 -0500, you wrote: My impression is that often (with the /t/) is increasing in use, at least among college students. I've considered it a spelling pronunciation, given that for several hundred years (no OED handy) the standard pronuncia- tion was without the /t/. But then, I'm still trying to figure out why one of my own children pronounces the /l/ in calm and palm. Re "no OED handy" -- OED2 has both t-pronunication and t-less (as well as more than one realization of the first vowel), giving the t-less one first which usually indicates some kind of priority/preference. But no comments are made on pronunciation that I saw in looking quickly. Without endorsing the analysis, I can point out that I recall being taught, in a relatively basic linguistics class in the late 1970s, that the t-pronunciation was a case of hypercorrection based on spelling, common among the culturally and linguistically insecure lower-middle and middle classes. So the theory went, anyway. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 02:56:31 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "Oh!" & "Ah!" This is from the World (NY), "AN EVENING AT THE CIRCUS," 10 April 1886, pg. 3, col. 1: (...) There are eighteen giants and thirteen fat women. One hundred and thirty-five feet of human length and 4,550 pounds of human fat. A more unique, in some respects a more unpleasant revelation, it would be difficult to find, and yet the groups are surrounded from early morning until the final procession in the evening by thousands of wonderers and "Oh-ers" and "Ah-ers." (...) Why Oh & Ah? Why not Ah & Oh? What is it in foreign cultures? Is it Oh & Ah in Japan? I found this in my files; I don't know if it's an antedate because I can't find the phrase recorded anywhere! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- This short posting is actually an AOL test! I've been trying to send my Christmas "philanthropy" posting all weekend. Whenever I press "send," AOL does nothing, then signs me off!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:47:54 -0500 From: Robert Ness ness[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU Subject: Re: of(t)en I think your "hypercorrect" explanation is accurate. /l/ was lost in EMnE after low back vowels and before labial and velar consonants (talk,palm) but not after other vowels or before dental or palatal consonants (elm,milk,bulk, salt, mulch). But spelling pronunciation is reclaiming these sounds, as in (your kid's) calm and palm, though not yet talk and walk (?). Try Wm. Faulkner vs the Atlanta Falcons. Likewise /t/ in often, though not soften or listen. On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: At 04:05 PM 11/30/97 -0500, you wrote: My impression is that often (with the /t/) is increasing in use, at least among college students. I've considered it a spelling pronunciation, given that for several hundred years (no OED handy) the standard pronuncia- tion was without the /t/. But then, I'm still trying to figure out why one of my own children pronounces the /l/ in calm and palm. Re "no OED handy" -- OED2 has both t-pronunication and t-less (as well as more than one realization of the first vowel), giving the t-less one first which usually indicates some kind of priority/preference. But no comments are made on pronunciation that I saw in looking quickly. Without endorsing the analysis, I can point out that I recall being taught, in a relatively basic linguistics class in the late 1970s, that the t-pronunciation was a case of hypercorrection based on spelling, common among the culturally and linguistically insecure lower-middle and middle classes. So the theory went, anyway. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:44:14 -0500 From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: "Ich bin ein Berliner" Some funny sounding claims of origin in English: I am a Franfurter. I am a Hamburger. I am a Wiener. I am a Limburger. I am a Danish. (He was always a great Dane.) I am proud of my Pekinese background. In college, I was always proud to be a Greek. I fell asleep with a New Yorker in my hand. I too am a Pole, firmly grounded in solidarity with you. I am a Bohemian. Wayne Glowka ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:01:04 -0500 From: Carol Andrus CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: TODAY'S NYTIMES There's an editorial today in the Times on "Collecting Three Centuries of American Slang" reviewing the Random Hse. Dict. of American Slang. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:07:12 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: english-spanish radio ad Last Wednesday, I spent about an hour on the Dan Ryan (I 90/94) in Chicago. I heard the following ad on a Spanish-speaking fm radio station: "one eight cero cero ey ([e]) chica". beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:10:04 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: transcription of talking in tongues Has anyone here worked with transcripts of someone talking in tongues? If so, I'd like to hear from you. Thanks, beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:03:44 -0600 From: Luanne von Schneidemesser lvonschn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Berliner; pancake turners, spatulas, scrapers; slider Check Juergen Eichhoff's Wortatlas der deutschen Umgangssprachen, vol. 2, map 61 (1978) for more recent although similar findings on the names for the (usu) jelly-filled pastry. In the north (Schleswig-Holstein, Niedersachsen), west of the Rhine River, and in Baden-Wuerttenberg and neighboring Switzerland, the term Berliner is used. Pfannkuchen is used in what used to be East Germany. In Hesse and bordering areas the term Kraeppel is used, less commonly Krapfen; Krapfen is the main term in Bavaria and Austria. When I was doing this interviewing in the central parts of West Germany, I found that the bakeries in Hesse would frequently have signs for Berliner, but people would say Krapfen or Kraeppel when asking for them. To relate this to our ADS list more directly, check DARE: we have entered Berliner (esp WI), krapfen (Ger settlement areas), and krebbel. More interesting to me is the entry for bismarck (chiefly Upper MW, wGt Lakes). This term is not used at all in Germany, but seems to come from the Hotel Bismarck in Chicago. And speaking of pancakes (more or less), we had a discussion at coffee break a while back on pancake turners, spatulas, and scrapers. I grew up with pancake turner for the thing you use to turn over what is being cooked/fried in a pan (DARE has plenty of evidence on this, showing it to be widespread but more frequent in the Northeast, North Central and West); to scrape out bowls and pans we used a spatula (DARE shows spatula as pancake turner to be quite widespread). Others disagreed, maintaining that that was done with a scraper. DARE had no question on this latter point. What do you call it? One more point. Driving home from a wedding in Iowa City this summer, we stopped at St. Donatus, Iowa. On the menu was a slider, a sandwich with various kinds of meat. Do any of you know this term? Bob Wachal pointed out the earlier use of slider for a White Castle hamburger, but that's not the same thing. Thanks. Luanne von Schneidemesser At 06:29 PM 11/29/1997 +0100, Jan Strunk wrote: The word "Berliner" is indeed the name of a jelly-filled pastry, but only in some parts of Germany, mainly in the west and south west. I'm from Bochum, Northrhine-Westphalia, and it's native to me. However, in Berlin itself, this kind of pastry is called Pfannkuchen (pancake), although it's usually fried. The Berliners may however have known the additional sense of the word. Although one normally says "Ich bin Berliner" without indefinite article, it's perfectly correct, grammatical and also understandable to say "Ich bin ein Berliner". In conclusion, I would say, that it might be funny for some people in Germany, but I wouldn't call it a real mistake. sources: myself DWA (The German Word Atlas) Jan Strunk strunk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]t-online.de ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:19:58 -0600 From: wachal robert s rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Subject: Re: Berliner; pancake turners, spatulas, scrapers; slider I've always called those rubber-ended things used to scrape out bowls a "spatula". The utensil used in diners to spread butter onto toast is something I did not encounter until adulthood. it strikes me as another kind of spatula, perhaps the "true" one. There are lunar-shaped objects of plastic that can be used to scrape out bowls. Surely these are "scrapers" and not "spatuulas". The diner type is also called a "sandwich spreader". According to some food dictionaries, the term "spatula" may be used to refer to all of the objects under discussion. Sorry that I have been unable to get to St. Donatus to check out sliders first hand. Bob Wachal ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:18:14 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: "Ich bin ein Berliner" I like those, but I think "I am a Danish" is a bit of a stretch. "He was a great Dane" si, "He was a Danish" no. But from the same area, "I am a Swede" would presumably convey to a British--but not an American--hearer that you are quite possibly a rutabaga (yellow turnip). How about "I am a Finn" (phono- logically if not orthographically), or "I am a white Russian" (or a black Russian, as the case may be). Or "She's not a bad Czech--but she just gave birth to a bouncing (baby) Czech." OK, enough. I agree. Re Luanne's pastries and pancakes: I recall eating lots of "krapfens" in Paris in the early 1960's. You got them warm on the streets (from the same vendors who sold crepes) with lots of powdered sugar on them, but as I recall they were unfilled. Yum! Seemed like an odd term to me, though. As for what you scrape a pan with, I use a spatula (whether I'm using it to scrape or to turn). For me, spatula is defined by structure, and applies to both metal and plastic varieties, but not to the ones with the narrower rubber heads. Of course, I was one of those who grew up thinking of "spatcheleh" as a Yiddish diminutive (cf. keppeleh, henteleh). --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:30:21 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: TODAY'S NYTIMES At 10:01 AM 12/1/97 -0500, you (Carol Andrus) wrote: There's an editorial today in the Times on "Collecting Three Centuries of American Slang" reviewing the Random Hse. Dict. of American Slang. The following is the URL that got me the article on the Times website. If that doesn't work, do a site-search and enter "slang" -- your only "hit" will be the article in question. Do it today; "NYTimes online" does not seem to archive articles, but only keeps a selection of current-day articles on the website: http://search.nytimes.com/search/daily/bin/fastweb?getdoc+site+iib-site+42+0 ++%28slang%29%20OR%20%28%29%20OR%20%28%29 Author is Verlyn Klinkenborg. Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:42:40 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: V Not for Victory I have seen Brits and Italians that use the palm-inward V as an offensive gesture. It's usually accompanied by an upward jab of the hand. I once walked into a New York French restaurant and the man at the door inexplicably used the sign. I believe he didnt think my date and I would know what it meant, but we had no problem telling the man to stuff it. I doubt he was French himself. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com -------------------------------------- Date: 11/29/97 3:06 AM To: Grant Barrett From: Pauline Bryant There are two V signs in Australia. In the V-for-victory sign as used by Churchill, hold up your index and middle fingers, with the thumb and the other two fingers folded across the palm. The important thing is to do this with the palm facing away from the body. Nobody actually does it any more because it isn't culturally relevant any more, but also because you might accidentally get it wrong and make the offensive sign. ... Is it only in Australia that the sign with the palm turned inward is offensive? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:47:00 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: Berliner; pancake turners, spatulas, scrapers; slider At 10:03 AM 12/1/97 -0600, you wrote: stopped at St. Donatus, Iowa. On the menu was a slider, a sandwich with various kinds of meat. Do any of you know this term? Well, no. But it brings back an ancient memory that might perhaps have better remained buried. When I was very young, so young that I was not yet even a self-identified Republican, I was reproved for the occasional "slider", i.e. ... well, um ... flatulence. I suspect it was family usage, since I have never heard anyone else use the word in that sense. On the other hand, it is not something that often comes up in conversation. There were also ... well, no. There is no need to bring that up in polite company. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:22:45 -0500 From: Paul Meier pmeier[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EAGLE.CC.UKANS.EDU Subject: Re: V Not for Victory This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------08946E28DA73F54D41866CBA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I remember in the England of my youth that a v-sign gesture--palm up, arm extended and vertical gesture offered was very rude--meaning "up yours". Of course we had the Churchillian gesture too. --------------08946E28DA73F54D41866CBA Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="vcard.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Paul Meier Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="vcard.vcf" begin: vcard fn: Paul Meier n: Meier;Paul email;internet: pmeier[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]eagle.cc.ukans.edu note: Associate Professor, Theatre and Film, University of Kansas, Lawrence, KS, 66045 (785)864-3944;(785)864-5251(fax) x-mozilla-cpt: ;0 x-mozilla-html: FALSE version: 2.1 end: vcard --------------08946E28DA73F54D41866CBA-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:10:55 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE english-spanish radio ad This morning I heard a similar oddity: a young female teen Spanglish speaker said "I don't have no tengo." Usually subway riders speaking Spanglish show continous thought through the language change, not a repetition of thought. Perhaps this usage is related to the colloquial: "I don't have no [money, food, gun, etc.]." This is just one instance, but I'll keep an ear out. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com -------------------------------------- Date: 12/1/97 11:48 AM To: Grant Barrett From: simon Last Wednesday, I spent about an hour on the Dan Ryan (I 90/94) in Chicago. I heard the following ad on a Spanish-speaking fm radio station: "one eight cero cero ey ([e]) chica". beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:18:28 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "Something Big Is Going to Happen" A student opened fire on fellow students in Kentucky today, killing or injuring eight. He then put down the gun and said he was "sorry." Echoing Timothy McVeigh's words ("Something big is going to happen"), the student had told other students on Friday that "something big is going to happen." Why does "something big is going to happen" have to preface mass murder? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- In my college days back in Troy, NY, "I am a Trojan" was always good for laughs....It's always nice to see The New York Times pay attention to slang--on its editorial page, no less--but the writing will put you to sleep. Try a paragraph or two before going to bed. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:16:22 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: At Their Web Site Stuart Elliot, advertising columnist for the New York Times, did his occasional 20 questions about advertising, marketing and media. This time he tries to skewer one of our clients and I'm not sure what he's driving at. Here's the paragraph: "How many grammarians wrote to the Newspaper Association of America to complain that recent ad about a campaign 'to promote literacy' also invites readers to visit the association 'at their Web site'?" What does he not like about "at their Web site"? I have ideas but I want other opinions. The orginal line in the ad actually reads "Visit us at our web site http://www.naa.org" if that makes any difference to you. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:11:32 -0500 From: "David A. Johns" djohns[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PEACHNET.CAMPUS.MCI.NET Subject: Re: At Their Web Site At 01:16 PM 12/1/97 -0500, you wrote: "How many grammarians wrote to the Newspaper Association of America to complain that recent ad about a campaign 'to promote literacy' also invites readers to visit the association 'at their Web site'?" What does he not like about "at their Web site"? I have ideas but I want other opinions. "Their" instead of "its"? -- David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA 31501 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:27:17 -0800 From: Peter Richardson prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: Re : 'Secret Languages' For a fine example at this time of the year, I'd recommend Sarah Boynton's marvelous CD w/text, _Pigorian Chant_ (or some such title) -- barnyard animals singing about their lives in a rural convent. The pigs, of course, are singing in pig Latin ("unt-gray," etc.) Peter Richardson On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Muhammed Suleiman wrote: Dear List Members, I am doing some research at the moment into what we can call variously 'Secret Languages' or 'Language Games'. By this I mean languages similar to Pig Latin or Back Slang where the syllables of a word are mixed up, or where an extra syllable is added to each of the original syllables of a word, in order to prevent others from understanding. These 'languages' are usually, but not exclusively, used by children and/or youths. I would be very grateful if my fellow list-members could give examples, with details, of any such languages they mow use or used as children. Many thanks in advance, and all of you out there, have a happy thanksgiving. Regards, Dr M. Suleiman ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:34:15 -0800 From: Peter Richardson prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: Trouble Hunters on WHEELS "While riding his wheel he was bitten by a dog. ... " I wonder how may people know that WHEEL once commonly meant 'bicycle'? My Iowa great-grandmother (b. 1860) regularly used this slang (?) term, and I think also her daughters and her daughters' husbands used it. Farmer&Henley list this usage, but give no noun cites. Chapman does not list it, nor does Beale/Partridge. This might be a loan translation of German Rad 'wheel,' probably used in German-speaking Iowa a century ago just as it's still used today in Germany for 'bicycle.' ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:49:29 -0800 From: Peter Richardson prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: goo The discussion of "goo-goo" reminds me that there's a relevant line in Walt Kelly's Pogo campaign song from about 1956: "...golly, I go goo-goo goin' go-go Pogo." Peter Richardson ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:24:57 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Trouble Hunters on WHEELS Someone writes (of the arachaic slang expression WHEEL 'bicycle') This might be a loan translation of German Rad 'wheel,' probably used in German-speaking Iowa a century ago just as it's still used today in Germany for 'bicycle.' Maybe. But my WHEEL 'bicycle' ancestors were not German, nor were the resident in German communities. Nor do Farmer and Henley localize it to Iowa. **********I wonder if DARE has any info on this?********* **********If not, maybe RDS has something in its files that JS can tell us about when he returns from his honeymoon?********* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:22:19 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU Subject: absquatulate/obsquatulate can anyone tell me about the currency of the word 'absquatulate'? DARE has 3 intransitive senses and 1 transitive, but only 2 of those senses have examples from this century. do people know/use it? lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:06:52 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: Re: At Their Web Site At 01:16 PM 12/1/97 -0500, you wrote: What does he not like about "at their Web site"? I have ideas but I want other opinions. As the Brits would say, the government are looking into it. Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:31:38 -0500 From: "Johnnie A. Renick" Tenderrite[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: At Their Web Site In a message dated 97-12-01 13:34:14 EST, gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM writes: The orginal line in the ad actually reads "Visit us at our web site http://www.naa.org" if that makes any difference to you. Perhaps just "Visit our web site" would have been enough. mayeb he is objecting to the use of "at." Johnnie Renick ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:37:37 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WKU.EDU Subject: Re[2]: Trouble Hunters on WHEELS My grandparents used "wheel" for bicycle and they were from West Georgia (US), b. about the turn of the century. No Germans there, as far as I know. Ellen ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:47:36 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WKU.EDU Subject: Re[2]: At Their Web Site My impression is that it doesn't have anything to do with grammar, but rather with a contradiction that the writer sees between promoting "literacy" and using the "web" to do it. I, on the other hand, see the internet as a great promoter of literacy, both by making interesting reading material readily available and by the renaissance of letter-writing (email) it has inspired. Ellen ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 03:28:25 -0600 From: "Ronald R. Upchurch" upch[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HTC.NET Subject: Mobelian (sp?) I have been searching for information related to the Mobelian (Sp?) slanguage allegedly used east of the Mississippi during the 1700's as a common communication tool by indians, traders and possibly the military. Can anyone point me toward any information regarding this topic ? Thank you. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:41:08 -0600 From: wachal robert s rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Subject: Re: Trouble Hunters on WHEELS Well it was also used in Scandinavian Fargo, North Dakota, in ca. 1940 when my 4th-grade teacher ammpomced that a classmate "will not be in school today because she had a mishap on her wheel." I understood her but thought it a very odd way to put it. Perhaps I understood because I grew up reading stories from children's books of the 1920's and earlier. Bob Wachal On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Peter Richardson wrote: "While riding his wheel he was bitten by a dog. ... " I wonder how may people know that WHEEL once commonly meant 'bicycle'? My Iowa great-grandmother (b. 1860) regularly used this slang (?) term, and I think also her daughters and her daughters' husbands used it. Farmer&Henley list this usage, but give no noun cites. Chapman does not list it, nor does Beale/Partridge. This might be a loan translation of German Rad 'wheel,' probably used in German-speaking Iowa a century ago just as it's still used today in Germany for 'bicycle.' ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:02:08 -0600 From: Elizabeth Gregory WPODOM1.AGCOM.egregory[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAEXGW.TAMU.EDU Subject: Mobelian (sp?) Mobilian -Reply I believe the spelling you want is "Mobilian," and I understand it was based on Choctaw and was used a great deal by traders and Indians in the Southeast. Elizabeth Gregory ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:18:55 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Mobelian (sp?) It's Mobilian Jargon, and it was not slang at all but rather a kind of pidgin formed from several southern U.S. Indian languages and used for intertribal trade. White traders and settlers picked it up and used it to some extent, but it was primarily used intertribally. The linguist who's worked on it extensively is Emmanuel Drechsel, who's now at the U. of Hawaii. His dissertation has just been published, by Oxford UP. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:31:37 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: RE english-spanish radio ad Repetition of a complete thought in two languages is very common in code-switching, according to many sociolinguists. Was there a slight pause between "I don't have" and "no tengo"? If so, then the utterance is not really "Spanglish" (which implies intrasentential mixing) but a simple code switch (i.e., intersentential or interclausal), in this case from a completely English clause to a completely Spanish one. Gumperz, Timm, Poplack, et al. have numerous examples like this one. This is not to say that code-mixing might not also occur, and in the same speech exchange (with mixed word stem + endings, varying word order, etc.). Beth's example would appear to be of this sort. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:19:31 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: RE english-spanish radio ad Well, no, there wasn't any redundancy in the radio ad, but rather, a pretty clear case of 1. code-mixing on the numbers one eight cero cero and 2. an exclam with "Spanish" phonology ey (=Eng "hey)--actually, more [e:y] and 3. a Spanish word that most (?) urban/Chicagoan speakers would know chica all said in a big, bluff, come-on voice. Definite pause between the numbers and the rest: "one eight cero cero PAUSE [e:y] chica!" beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 21:05:28 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: Re: "Ich bin ein Berliner." I've located Reinhold Aman's article on "Ich bin ein Berliner:" "Debunking Kennedy's 'I Am A Jelly-Filled Doughnut'" _Maledicta_ vol. 11, 1990-1995 (dates: sic), pp.63-64. A few of Aman's observations are: 1) "About seven years ago, an American language professor claimed that John =46. Kennedy's exclamation _Ich bin ein Berliner!_ really means 'I am a jelly-filled doughnut!' This nonsense was reprinted widely, including in _The New York Times_ of April 30, 1988..." ---The writers claimed that such citizens never refer to themselves as "Berliners" and that the residents of Berlin "tittered among themselves" when J.F.K. uttered his immortal words. 2) Aman--a native speaker of German, a former professor of German, and a German dialectologist (among other qualifications) points out: "_Ich bin ein Berliner_ means 'I am a Berliner,' [i.e.] 'a male person/native of Berlin' and absolutely nothing else." 3) "A female from Berlin would say, _Ich bin (eine) Berlinerin_. Most northern German s normally do not use the indefinite article _ein(e)_ with place-name origins and professions (e.g. _Ich bin Berliner. Ich bin Professor._), whereas most southern Germans, Austrians, and Swiss Germans do use it. (_Ich bin ein Schweizer. Ich bin eine =D6sterreicherin. Ich bin ein Professor._)" 4) "No intelligent native speaker of German tittered in Berlin when J.F.K. spoke, just as no native speaker of German...would titter if someone said, _Ich bin ein Wiener_ or _Hamburger_ or _Frankfurter_" --Aman, incidentally, is a native of Bavaria. He points out that he can correctly say _Ich bin ein Bayer_ without any native-speaking German supposing that he is calling himself an aspirin. --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Nov 1997 to 1 Dec 1997 *********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 1 Dec 1997 to 2 Dec 1997 There are 18 messages totalling 803 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Re[2]: At Their Web Site (4) 2. Jesses; Dennis; Prairie Chicken; Dare Devil; Let Off Steam; No Go.... 3. PHILANTHROPY SPECIAL: Disgrace to die rich; NYC "tenement" 4. Sidewalk Santa 5. At Their Web Site (3) 6. Mobelian (sp?) 7. RE Re: At Their Web Site 8. Trouble Hunters on WHEELS (2) 9. Saturday Nite Jive 10. How cold was it? 11. Sin; Mr. Whiskers/Fuzz; Speakeasy; Hoochino; Spat (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 01:03:34 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re[2]: At Their Web Site Another quibble they may have: Can one truly VISIT an association, whether on a website or elsewhere? DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 03:46:31 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Jesses; Dennis; Prairie Chicken; Dare Devil; Let Off Steam; No Go.... I've been looking at the AMERICAN TURF REGISTER AND SPORTING MAGAZINE for "Black Maria" (for David Shulman and others) and "cocktail" (for Tom Dalzell's sin words). Both of these terms have been found in small parts, but--as often happens--I found other phrases as well. About a week or so ago I posted "druthers" and others. Here are some more terms. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- JESSES About a year ago I did the Americanism "Give 'em Jessie!" No book seems to record this "jesses." This is from the American Turf Register and Sporting Magazine, "Falconry," March 1831, pg. 336: "A cap of leather, called a _hood_, is to be put on the hawk's head the moment he is taken. It is so constructed as to prevent him from seeing, but allows him to feed, and may be put on or taken off at pleasure; but to _hood_ a hawk (we are told) requires a degree of manual dexterity that is not easily acquired. Slips of light leather, seven or eight inches long and a quarter of an inch wide, are to be made fast to each of his legs. These are called _jesses_ (Plural? Is "jesse" singular?--ed.), and are to be fastened to a small swivel fixed to the end of a thong of leather three or four feet long, called a _leash_, so as easily to be detached from the swivel when the hawk is required to fly. The _jesses_ always remain on his legs. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- DENNIS I haven't found this elsewhere, either. It's from October 1830, "Rail Shooting," pg. 68: "Ask pardon; I was only wondering how you could shoot without any locks." "The d---l you say--then 'I'm dennised.' So much for trusting careless servants, and not cleaning one's own gun;--the fellow has put the gun in the cover without the locks." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- PRAIRIE CHICKEN DARE asked about "prairie chicken." This OED antedate (they have 1840) is from August 1832, "On the Grouse of the Western and Northwestern Prairies," pg. 589: The French Creoles call them "des Phesants," the pheasants, or "poule de prairie," "prairie chicken," by which latter name, and "prairie hen," all the people of Illinois and Missouri still call them, and so little do they suppose there is another name for them, that a person would not be understood once in one hundred times, if he spoke of them under the name of grouse. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- DARE DEVIL In the edition of July 1831, pg. 567, are two interesting horse names. One is "Sky-Scraper" (OED has this horse name as its earliest "skyscraper" citation). Another horse name is "Dare Devil," foaled in 1787. OED has "dare devil" from 1794. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- LET OFF STEAM OED has "let off steam" from 1831, and the phrase refers to a steam engine. This is from April 1831, pg. 363: It was not well advised, then, in a friend of John Richards, instead of removing doubts, known to exist, as to the purity of that family, to have let "off the steam" in criminations of the gentleman who instituted the inquiry, through the columns of your Magazine.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- NO GO This is not the first "no go," but it explains an origin for the term. An antedate can probably be found if I check the Sporting Magazine. This is from January 1831, pg. 218: They, as far as I can collect from their Sporting Magazine, start their nags, when the gentlemen jocks are ready; the consequence is, that those who have not a start to suit them, cry "_no go_"--and the usual results of these _no goes_, are numerous false starts--for _their effects_, vide the Leger for which Mameluke ran. Now _we_ say to the gentlemen jocks, you _must be_ ready when the signal is given; therefore, endeavor to get no more than a fair start, for if any unnecessary backwardness or any disposition to take an unfair advantage is seen, especial care will be taken you do not profit by it--or if you do for once, you will not be very likely to do so a second time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- WALK SPANISH; DO THEMSELVES BROWN; FOR SARTIN; UP HUDDY; HOW ARE YOU OFF FOR SOAP?; DON'T CARE NOTHIN FOR NOBODY Supposedly "Walk Spanish" goes back to the 16th century, but the earliest citations turn up in the 19th century. He's part of a colorful article (with plenty of Americanisms) from January 1830, pg. 221: Coaches go thirty miles an hour without horses--men swallow poison by the ounce, and "do themselves (as well as the lookers on) brown" for a crown. It is worth the trial. You, Mr. Editor, have for SARTIN, some "right pert" ones down along that Eastern Shore of yours--and, _I guess_, we have some "tarnation cute" ones our way. (...) "How are you off for soap?" has been a common question among steamboat proprietors this summer. (...) As the ice is likely to render the track too dangerous to run the race out this season, and, as it is principally their own, and not the public's money they run for, they may divide stakes, or take "another hack" another year; and if that don't fix them, the devil's in it. "Grease your wheels and _walk_ Spanish" has been the go, but it would have been "up huddy" with the lot of them before this, had it not been for the liberal patronage, and _spirited_ support, of that very numerous and _respectable_ class, ycleped "rum customers." But I must "clap on a stopper" and "hark back," or I shall be "all abroad," upon this here same North river run. (...) By the by, Billy, (though he "hant no opinion of timin, and sich nonsense," and "don't care nothin for nobody," when he is "in for the plate,") is first rate in his way, and will no doubt be a valuable correspondent--the more especially, if he explains himself upon paper, (as to how he "tools the length into 'em" without "queering their pins") with the same precision and clearness he does when "wagging his clapper." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- PICKILARITIES From July 1831, "The Fox Chase," pg. 541: There never was a better horse than my horse Barney; and yet he has his "pickilarities," as Winfred Jenkins used to say, but not a bit of vice. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- OH DON'T! The "Not!" of the 19th century. I forget the source, and I can't find a reference book that explains it! From February 1831, pg. 288: As old Jefferson says in the play, "Oh dont!" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- GETTING USED UP FAST This--which I also can't seem to find anywhere--is from August 1831, pg. 602: As a Kentuck would say, "he was getting used up fast." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- GENU-INE DARE's earliest citation is 1843. I found this pronunciation popular throughout the 19th century. This is from September 1829, pg. 31 (title): A GENU-_INE_ DOCUMENT. The speaker also uses the phrase "that there line." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- GOT UP; GOT BY DARE has one 1827 "got up" reference; this is from September 1829, pg. 30: Since you have, at great expense, "got up" a Sporting Magazine.... And this "got by" is from April 1830, pg. 382: There is a most preposterous and wretched affectation creeping into our sporting tongue,* which has not even the merit of being good English. As such a horse is "sired" such another; or he was "sired" by Eclipse; for _got by_ Eclipse. (N.B. not _gotten_ by.) We shall read soon of colts and fillies _dammed_ by such and such mares. The true style of the Turf is, He was _got_ by Eclipse _out of_ Madcap. (The Irish say _on_ Madcap.) *Let the barbarous innovations be confined to the Senate and the Bar, but let us keep to our good old vernacular tongue. What should we say to "a _covey_ of wild geese and a _flock_ of partridges?" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ I have more, and this is all from less than half a day! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 03:47:36 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: PHILANTHROPY SPECIAL: Disgrace to die rich; NYC "tenement" CYBERSPACE NOTES: I've been trying to post this about 20 times. When I click "send," AOL does nothing, then signs me off!....Has anyone checked the ADS-L archives recently? Is everything gone??? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ PHILANTROPY SPECIAL This is the giving season. The sidewalk Santas (maybe I'll do that one) are out. Ted Turner gave a billion dollars! DOORMAN: Happy Thanksgiving, Mr. Popik! POPIK: Happy Thanksgiving! I was cleaning out my files and found these two interesting items. I'll probably post "sin words" through Chistmas, and then maybe post the first citation of a flying reindeer. DOORMAN: Happy Thanksgiving, Mr. Popik! POPIK: You just said that!! Actually, it's past Thanksgiving! I got the card with the fifty names on it! Please, I'm on the internet! DOORMAN: Happy holidays, Mr. Popik! "Happy holidays--second notice" should arrive any day now.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- "THE MAN WHO DIES RICH DIES DISGRACED" (ANDREW CARNEGIE?) This is from the Washington Post, Questions and Answers (Magazine section), 11 March 1906, pg. 11, col. 6: Carnegie's Epigram. Under what circumstances did Andrew Carnegie make use of his famous epigram about the disgrace it is to die rich?--George Waugh. The form quoted is "the man who dies rich dies disgraced." But Mr. Carnegie is his own best authority for saying that he never said it. The phrase was attributed to him as having been used at a dinner of a library commission in Pittsburgh in 1894. What he really did say is thus explained by Mr. Carnegie in a letter which he wrote when the phrase first obtained currency. "What I have said about wealth is found in my own writings, and not in extracts from supposed speeches. I had no reference to men who died leaving competencies, for I believe such men are the salt of civilization; but to men leaving millions in securities which they could have used in their lifetime. I said I believed the day would come when such men would die disgraced, and the tribute of approval would be given to those upon whose tombstones could be truthfully written: He lived without ostentation, And he died poor, as was said of Pitt." Surprisingly, the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN QUOTATIONS doesn't have this quotation (even popular, falsely attributed quotes should be in there). BARTLETT'S has it and attributes it to Andrew Carnegie in 1889. Carnegie's denial is not given even a footnote. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- NEW YORK CITY "TENEMENT" HOUSE BARNHART'S DICTIONARY OF ETYMOLOGY has: The term _tenement house_, meaning an apartment building usually in a poor section of a city, is first recorded in 1858, in American English; in the 1930's, the phrase was shortened to _tenement_. In The New York Tribune, Section Five, 16 November 1913, pg. 3, is a long article: "A. I. C. P.--THE ST. GEORGE TO POVERTY'S DRAGON--IS NOW 70 YEARS OLD." A. I. C. P.=Association for Improving the Condition of the Poor. In the center of the article is a picture of "ROBERT MILHAM HARTLEY: The MAN who put the BAN on INDISCRIMINATE GIVING." Also in the center is a drawing of a building, with the caption, "THE FIRST MODEL TENEMENT IN NEW YORK CITY." (Not "tenement house"--ed.) This is part of the article: Established in 1843, the Association for Improving the Condition of the Poor in 1845 made the first investigation of housing conditions in the city. Three years later, in 1848, it distributed plans for model tenements with the object of educating the public as to the needs of the poor and ways of supplying them. In 1851 the New York Juvenile Asylum was projected and the De Milt Dispensary founded, the latter the first institution of its kind. The Northwestern Dispensary was founded the following year, to reproduce in another part of the city the successful work of the first dispensary. In this year also the first public washing and bathing establishment in the city was built, at a cost of $42,000. (...) ("Rotten Row" is described--ed.) The funds, amounting to $90,000, were raised, and in 1853 what was then considered a model tenement house was erected between Elizabeth and Mott streets. It would not be counted as such now. A tenement house reformer to-day would laugh if he did not weep at some of its details. For instance, there was not a bedroom in it which opened directly out upon a court or street. Comparatively little daylight could penetrate to the sleeping rooms. Each apartment in the six story building contained three rooms, consisting of a living room, with windows opening upon a passageway running in front of the building through the middle of the block from street to street, and two bedrooms behind it, extending to a longitudinal hall. The central section of this hall was lighted by means of windows opening upon what was described as an "open area," although in the floor plan, which has been preserved, it looks more like a long and comparatively narrow light well. The bedrooms fronting on this hall, if they chanced to be opposite the windows in the illuminated part of the hall, were able to secure a twice strained ray of daylight. Otherwise, the laboring man was obliged to rely upon his wife in lieu of any alarm clock to warn him that it was time for him to arise and go forth to his task. A notable feature of the building, however, was the fact that each bedroom was connected with a ventilating flue running to the roof. It was noted with pride that there was Croton water in the building and that the halls were illuminated with gas. On the top floor were large rooms, adapted to the social uses of the occupants. In 1856 and 1857 there were investigations into defective dwellings, the sewerage problem and filthy streets and a "social and moral census" of sections of the city was taken. Some appalling statistics were secured, showing the poor chances of growing up in New York City. It was developed that the ratio of deaths to population in half a century had nearly doubled. In 1810 the annual death rate had been one in forty-six persons, in itself a bad enough condition. But in 1857 one in twenty-seven persons passed over the silent river each year. In some of the most unsanitary wards of the city the death rate was one in sixteen. In no other city in the Christian world was the rate so high. It was found also that between the years 1843 and 1850 the average age of death was fifteen years. In other words, more died than lived to taste the experience of that happy period of life known as the teens. To realize that the conditions are such in one's home community that one-half of those who are born will not pass their fifth birthday is terrifying. That was the condition in New York in the fifties. It was not paralleled in any other city open to the same Christian influence. (...) A Worldcat computer search found S. H. Perkins, PLANS FOR TENEMENT HOUSING: BROOKLINE, MASS. (1846). Notes: Plans, signed by Stephen Higginson Perkins (1804-1877) and either done by him or at his request, evidently to accompany the presentation of the "Report of the Committee on the Expediency of Providing Better Tenements for the Poor," (Boston: Eastburn's Press, 1846). One plan ("#3") is of a building "to be erected on the site of the old St. Pancras Church, London" and the other ("5") is a project for New York. Floor plans and dimensions are given. The Lower East Side Tenement Museum is at 90 Orchard Street, telephone (212) 431-0233. I went there this week. There is a large bookstore, but there is no book (nor any exhibit!) that mentions the first New York City tenement house. So I asked about "tenement." "It's a Greek word," one museum staffer said. "It's Latin," answered another. Great! Here I go again!! I have these papers.... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 04:04:58 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Sidewalk Santa I don't know why OED doesn't have an entry for this! The earliest "Sidewalk Santa" on a Worldcat search is from an album called PEACE by the Rotary Connection (1968). "Sidewalk Santa" is the title of a song. I checked THE VOLUNTEER GAZETTE by the Volunteers of America. This is from December 1962, pg. 2, col. 2: Each year, New York City opens its heart--and purse strings--to the Volunteers of America Sidewalk Santas who turn up on the metropolitan scene on the day after Thanksgiving to begin the annual holiday fund drive that provides aid for the city's needy. Our cover photo show a young Gothamite welcoming the Sidewalk St. Nicks. (same issue, pg. 11) These are the famous bell-ringing Santa Clauses, sent out by the Volunteers of America every year since the 1890s. (...) Sidewalk Santas come from all professions. I didn't find "Sidewalk Santa" in the previous volume, which contained Dec. 1959, Dec. 1960, and Dec. 1961. I didn't check any earlier VOLUNTEER GAZETTE volumes--it might be there. I did check "Santa Claus" in every Reader's Guide, without finding an earlier cite. A next step for these things is the Tamony Collection--why aren't they online? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ TYPO When I pressed "send" and waited a few minutes, I realized I misspelled "philanthropy"....It's four a.m. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:44:43 -0500 From: Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: At Their Web Site Our expert guesses demonstrate the arbitrariness of many usage "errors." It's a game anyone can play; I can find a shocking "grammatical" error in something you've said, and find it even more shocking that you don't recognize the error, thereby demonstrating that I'm purer than thou. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:37:02 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WKU.EDU Subject: Re: Mobelian (sp?) Check "The Mobilian Trade Language" pub. Univ. of TN Press, out of print but may be in your library. The author was a professor of mine at UGA, James M. Crawford. He died shortly after submitting the final copy of his Cocopa Dictionary to the publishers. He also edited a collection on Southeast Indian LGs. Ellen ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:05:51 -0500 From: Denis Anson danson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MISERI.EDU Subject: Re: Re[2]: At Their Web Site I would hesitate to consider email as producing a renaissance in writing for two reasons: first, few of us save our email for posterity. It is a very ephemeral communication, with only slightly more permanence than a phone call. Second, because we know that it is an ephemeral format, we tend not to dwell over it. The writers of the past would ponder over which words best conveyed their intended meaning, and would strive for impact in their words. Modern email is much more nearly flow of consciousness writing, with little thought behind it. Denis Anson, MS, OTR/L | Author of Computer Access Specialist | Alternative Computer Access: College Misericordia | Making Appropriate Selections 301 Lake Street | Published by Dallas, PA 18612-1098 | FA Davis -----Original Message----- From: Ellen Johnson [SMTP:Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WKU.EDU] Sent: Monday, December 01, 1997 3:48 PM To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Re[2]: At Their Web Site My impression is that it doesn't have anything to do with grammar, but rather with a contradiction that the writer sees between promoting "literacy" and using the "web" to do it. I, on the other hand, see the internet as a great promoter of literacy, both by making interesting reading material readily available and by the renaissance of letter-writing (email) it has inspired. Ellen ellen.johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]wku.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 10:40:20 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: At Their Web Site Allan writes: ". . . I'm purer than thou." I'm sure glad he didn't write, "I'm purer than thee"! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:42:40 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Re: At Their Web Site From: Allan Metcalf Our expert guesses demonstrate the arbitrariness of many usage "errors." It's a game anyone can play; I can find a shocking "grammatical" error in something you've said, and find it even more shocking that you don't recognize the error, thereby demonstrating that I'm purer than thou. Yes, exactly. I turns out that they did not like the possessive our/their when used with the the organizational noun NAA.. I have collected the list's varied responses (thank you) and have forwarded them on to our account people beginning with the phrase "The data are in and they show..." Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:18:34 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: Trouble Hunters on WHEELS The _Dictionary of Americanisms_ has "wheel" for "bicycle" from 1882. DARE has scattered citations up through the 1960s, with no particular regional pattern, and the 1902 _Sears_ catalog offers its "highest grade wheel" for $15.75! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 14:11:34 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: Trouble Hunters on WHEELS The _Dictionary of Americanisms_ has "wheel" for "bicycle" from 1882. DARE has scattered citations up through the 1960s, with no particular regional pattern, and the 1902 _Sears_ catalog offers its "highest grade wheel" for $15.75! This echoes what we have in the HDAS files, which I was about to post. We have evidence from the DA up through the 1970s (perhaps later, but very rare if so). In recent use "wheels" (plural) is much more common for any type of wheeled transport, bicycles included. Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 14:36:21 -0500 From: Brenda Lester brenles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CODY.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Saturday Nite Jive Help! I'm trying to find the publisher (newspaper or magazine?) of a comic strip called "Saturday Nite Jive" written by Bill Johnson. That's all the info I have. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 14:45:25 -0600 From: Greg Pulliam gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CHARLIE.IIT.EDU Subject: Re: Re[2]: At Their Web Site Well, yes email can be ephemeral, but no more so than hard mail, I think. There are email messages which I still have after many years--some on disk, some as hard copies. And I dispose of a lot of junk hard mail every day without even opening it--how ephemeral is that? I find that I dwell over many of the messages I write, choosing my words very carefully for precision and impact. I would also disagree with the blanket claim about email being (1) flow of consciousness and (2) relatively thoughtless. The messages on this list, for example, are often thoughtful and they are frequently fairly structured--at least to a greater extent than simple stream-of-consciousness freewriting would usually be. I would hesitate to consider email as producing a renaissance in writing for two reasons: first, few of us save our email for posterity. It is a very ephemeral communication, with only slightly more permanence than a phone call. Second, because we know that it is an ephemeral format, we tend not to dwell over it. The writers of the past would ponder over which words best conveyed their intended meaning, and would strive for impact in their words. Modern email is much more nearly flow of consciousness writing, with little thought behind it. Denis Anson, MS, OTR/L | Author of Computer Access Specialist | Alternative Computer Access: College Misericordia | Making Appropriate Selections 301 Lake Street | Published by Dallas, PA 18612-1098 | FA Davis Gregory J. Pulliam Illinois Institute of Technology Lewis Department of Humanities Chicago, IL 60616 gpulliam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]charlie.cns.iit.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 16:16:00 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: Re[2]: At Their Web Site On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Denis Anson wrote: I would hesitate to consider email as producing a renaissance in writing for two reasons: first, few of us save our email for posterity. It is a very ephemeral communication, with only slightly more permanence than a phone call. Second, because we know that it is an ephemeral format, we tend not to dwell over it. The writers of the past would ponder over which words best conveyed their intended meaning, and would strive for impact in their words. Modern email is much more nearly flow of consciousness writing, with little thought behind it. The claims that you make about email are also true of letters. They are ephemeral in the sense that most people don't save all the letterss they receive. Not all letter writers pondered over which words best convey a meaning. Published collections of letters represent a small percentage of letters written in the past. It would be possible to collect a small, select number of email messages and present for them the claims that you make about letters from the past. I also disagree with some of your basic assumptions about email. Clearly, email has an element of immediacy that "snail mail" letters will never have. However, the writer can choose to spend as much time as he or she wishes on a email messate--or a letter. Email can have as much permanence as the receiver (and sender) wishes. It can be stored; it can be printed. After having analyzed the writing in 3 class computer conferences (about 120,000 words), I can--and have--claimed (with co-author Boyd Davis) that the writers used complex techniques to present their ideas and arguments in electronic form. They drew on both their knowledge of speaking and writing conventions in their messages. Phone messages are oral; email is written. They are different modes of communication. Of course, you can make phone messages part of your permanent archive by recording phone conversations. All of these sources of language use are important to the study of language structure and use. Will I save this message? I haven't decided yet. Jeutonne Brewer ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:00:09 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: At Their Web Site Allan writes: ". . . I'm purer than thou." I'm sure glad he didn't write, "I'm purer than thee"! Ron, evidence of his being the purer of the two of you is that he recognizes ellipsis and the difference between a conjunction and a preposition: . . . purer than thou (art (pure)). DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 20:00:30 +0000 From: Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]EPIX.NET Subject: How cold was it? On another list, smaller but equally erudite, the matter of cold weather came up along with its relationship to certain anatomical topography of those of the Wiccan persuasion. A lady from Boston (it's possible) said it had been colder than a you-know-what -- period. A member from Arkansas said it was colder than a YKW in a snowstorm. Here is the Northeast I have always heard that it was cold as a YKW in a brass brassiere. Has anyone ever mapped this? Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 20:51:39 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Sin; Mr. Whiskers/Fuzz; Speakeasy; Hoochino; Spat Ah well, the ADS-L archives have been erased by BYU Engineering. Two years of work gone! F**K! S**T! P**S! On to "sin words." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- SIN This is from the Long Branch (NJ) Record, 29 May 1902, pg. 12, col. 6: What Is Sin? Recently a neighboring pastor was preaching to the children in our church, says a writer in The Homilietic Review. After asking many questions and impressing on the minds of the children that they must be saved from sin, he asked the question, "What is sin?" A bright little boy, six years old, quick as thought, replied, "Chewing, smoking, cursing and tearing your pants." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- MR. WHISKERS/THE FUZZ "Fuzz" for police appears in 1929 (RHHDAS); perhaps it's related to "Mr. Whiskers." RHHDAS has the latter from 1933 and states that it is suggested by the image of "Uncle Sam." A New York Times slang article of 27 March 1932 has Mr. Whiskers; Troops; Whacks; Ta-ta; Short; Gunsel; Nature-ray; Sneaker; To Y someone; and To go out in the country. Why does RHHDAS have this 1932 article for "gunsel" but not "Mr. Whiskers"--where 1932 would be the first citation? The article begins: GANGS COIN NEW SLANG DESPITE "MR. WHISKERS" Bearded Gentleman "Pat Whacks" on Capone, but the "Troops" Are Still "Nature-Ray" CHICAGO, March 26.--The fertile wits of gangland may not be earning much money these days what with Alphonse Capone in jail, but they go right on making language. One of the badlands that gave the nation such familiar phrases as "taken for a ride" and "on the spot" flows a continuous stream of new words and new usages for old words. Changing conditions with new demands on vocabularies, new symbolisms grasped by the gangster mind, or a mere need for terminological novelty have brought forth a number of so far unrecorded phrases in recent months. The principal linguistic departures are here summed up with their meanings: Mr. Whiskers--A general term for the Federal Government, especially its law-enforcement officers, as opposed to city police. (...) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- SPEAKEASY The Dictionary of Americanisms has an 1889 citation that reads, "Unlicensed saloons in Pennsylvania are known as "speak-easies." The term probably originated in Pennsylvania. The Philadelphia Press of 17 May 1899 has a front page cartoon of a "GAMBLING DIVE," which contains "POLICY. FARO. ROULETTE. SPEAKEASY. POOL. POKER." I can't find my other "speakeasy" and "blind tiger" citation from the 1890s. Anyway, I plan to go to Pennsylvania a week after the ADS meeting in January, and I'll probably come up with an antedate then. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- HOOCHINO Tom Dalzell also wants "hooch," but the RHHDAS has it right. This is from the Literary Digest, "The Lexicographer's Easy Chair," 17 September 1921, pg. 71, col. 1: "L. P.," Brooklyn, N. Y.--"What can you tell me of the origin of _hooch_?" _Hooch_ is a contraction of _hoochinoo_, a very powerful distilled liquor made from yeast, flour, molasses or sugar by the Indians of Alaska. For additional information, consult Emerson's "Beverages, Past and Present," volume 2, page 444. Actually, for additional information, consult the Alaskan word dictionary that was published in the 1980s. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- SPAT This amusing item was in the Long Branch (NJ) Record, 27 March 1903, pg. 5, col. 1: "SPAT" IS NOT SPITTING. Rockaway Justice Makes an Odd Ruling Interpreting Law. "Yer honor, he spat on the floor," said Policeman Sullivan to Magistrate Healy in the Far Rockaway Court when John Trumbull was arraigned, charged with violating the sanitary code. "Just spat?" inquired the magistrate. "Yes, he spat on the floor of the smoking car." "Well, if he spat he wasn't spitting," ruled the wise magistrate. "The law says 'spitting' is prohibited in public places. 'Spitting' is plural; 'spat' is singular. It don't give any punishment if a man merely spat. "Futhermore, a smoking car is not a public place. Women are admitted in public places, but they are not allowed in smoking cars, so a smoking car is not a public place. Trumball is discharged." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:35:25 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Sin; Mr. Whiskers/Fuzz; Speakeasy; Hoochino; Spat At 08:51 PM 12/2/97 -0500, you ("Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM ) wrote: Ah well, the ADS-L archives have been erased by BYU Engineering. Two years of work gone! F**K! S**T! P**S! On to "sin words." You're not kidding, are you? There's a backup for everything, I would imagine..... Maybe wrongly. (Quick, spot the solecism....) Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Dec 1997 to 2 Dec 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 2 Dec 1997 to 3 Dec 1997 There are 12 messages totalling 374 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Cocktail; Highball 2. How cold was it? 3. your mail 4. No subject given 5. new 6. Glass Ceiling 7. PopChar (3) 8. RE Glass Ceiling 9. RE PopChar 10. Character Display on Macintosh ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 00:18:47 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Cocktail; Highball (More "sin" citations.) HIGHBALL I posted a "highball" citation a year ago. It's in the ADS-L archives (if they exist). The citation described the phrase "having a ball." This is from the American Turf Register and Sporting Magazine, May-June 1839, pg. 326: GIVING A BALL. A dose of medicine, whether purgative, cordial, diuretic, or any other kind, when given in a solid form, is termed a _ball_. A "highball" is a ball in a high glass. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- COCKTAIL Peter Tamony's papers on "cocktail" probably have everything there is to say on this. A turf poem containing "cocktail" was posted here a few days ago. This is from the Philadelphia Inquirer, 25 October 1904, "Everybody's Column," pg. 8, col. 4: WHENCE THE WORD "COCKTAIL" (J. C. P.)--"Dear Sir: Can you tell me the derivation of the name .cocktail,' that seductive but insidious drink, much used by the American 'bon vivant'? Is it a U. S. idiomatic word, or is it of an earlier period? When such an authority as Murray's New English Dictionary, which may well claim to be the largest, if not the highest, of its kind (half a dozen ponderous volumes, and not complete at that) describes "cocktail" as "chiefly U. S. (a slang name of which the real origin appears to be lost)" it must be presumptuous on the part of a poor "U. S. newspaper man" to open his mouth on the subject. In all due fear and trembling, therefore, we would fain suggest that in certain parts of Murray's own country, notably in Yorkshire generally and Sheffield particularly, beer that is full of life, fresh and foaming, is dialectically known as "cocktail beer;" the transfer, in popular, rough-and-ready parlance, of the name "cocktail" from a fizzy, foaming, life-full beer to a life-imparting, "cocking-up" rouser such as the "U. S. cocktail" is credited to be, appears to us a very short step; and we humbly beg the privilege of recording the name for your benefit, friend J. C. P. As to the origin of the English dialectical "cocktail beer," it seems likely to be, like a score of other similar forms, the outsome of the popular blending of two notions--"a tail like that of a cock," and "a tail that cocks up." This is from the New York Herald, 16 October 1921, section 7, cols. 4-5, pg. 6: Bits of Horse Lore Out of the Usual By Martha McCullouch Williams (...) WHAT is a cocktail? (...) Harking back to cocktail, it strikes me as possible that the cant name comes remotely from the Arab practice of bending the tail bone of a newly dropped foal over the forefinger till its upper vertebra is dislocated. This insures, after healing, a high carriage of the tail--something more barbarously secured by the farrier's practice of nicking. Thus the cocktail came to be held an indication of spirit, eke of blood--horses showing foot and gameness might well be entitled to it. As to how the name came to fit also a drink here is a theory, not so far fetched as some, with a few facts behind it. When Washington fought the redcoats for possession of New York town he and his staff rested at a house of call in what is now The Bronx, and were there waited on by a buxom landlady, a widow who had a fine hand at mixing things spirituous. One day she tried a new brew, sipped, then swallowed, then passed the potion as a stirrup gup to her guests, already in saddle, saying: "Drink hearty, gentlemen. It's good! I say so. 'Twill make ye each feel as sassy as a cocktail." (...) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 09:41:27 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: How cold was it? Duane, 'Colds' (from the beginning of the century through the early 70's in southern Indiana) are as follows: Colder than (or 'as cold as') 1) A well-digger's ass + (in Alaska/the Klondike/Hades) 2) A witch's/bitch's tit(ty) + ((in a brass bra) (on a frosty Halloween)) 3) A creek rock 4) A (wet) frog 5) Ice I did not collect 'in a snowstorm' as an extrension for either of the first two. (Note that either or both extensions may be applied to the second only with 'witch' and their order is fixed if both are selected.) Happily, these are not all from memory, and those interested in other proverbial comparisons from Southern Indiana (although I certainly do not claim that they are unique to that part of the world) might check out my dusty 'Proverbial Comarisons from Southern Indiana,' Orbis XXIV,1:72-114 (1975). As for distribution, for the well-digger, I listed 'Ozarks' and 'Western Tennessee' for the unadorned version, 'Eastern' and 'Western Tennessee' for '...in Idaho' (which I did not collect locally in Indiana), and 'West Tennessee' and 'New York State' for '...in Alaska.' Only 'West Tennessee' also had '...in the Klondike.' I list 'Ozarks,' 'Western Tennessee,' and 'New York Strate' for all of the possible extended versions of the second, but only 'New York State' also had the 'bitch's' alternate (without the extensions, as noted above). 'Creek rock' was not found in any other published list (although 'cold as stone' has a long history); 'frog' (without 'wet') appeared in lists for 'Indiana,' 'Nebraska,' 'Ozarks,' 'Eastern Tennessee,' 'Western Tennessee,' and 'New York State'; of course, 'cold as ice' is ubiquitous. Those regional identifications are based on published collections; I am certain that many other areas support these (and similar) proverbialisms. Except for 'cold as ice' (which Whiting and Whiting 1968 list from 1300), these items appear to be fairly 'modern' and uniquely 'Anmerican' since I could not find parallels for them in historical dictionaries of proverbialisms in the US or of any such historical or current lists for the UK (or other English-speaking areas). (Although it may not be worth mention, there is, of course, a number of 'catch-all' closers for proverbial comparisons, but they take almost any adjective beginning. 'Cold' is frequent with them (e.g., ' ... as/than all get-out,' '...as/than hell,' '...as/than shit, '... as/than a son of a bitch'). DInIs (fixin' to get as cold as all of these way up here in MI) PS: A list equally erudite? Say it isn;t so! On another list, smaller but equally erudite, the matter of cold weather came up along with its relationship to certain anatomical topography of those of the Wiccan persuasion. A lady from Boston (it's possible) said it had been colder than a you-know-what -- period. A member from Arkansas said it was colder than a YKW in a snowstorm. Here is the Northeast I have always heard that it was cold as a YKW in a brass brassiere. Has anyone ever mapped this? Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:43:57 +0300 From: esra atali e101130[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ORCA.CC.METU.EDU.TR Subject: Re: your mail yahuuuuuu On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, esra atali wrote: I HAVE JUST SUBSCRIBED. I WANT MORE INFORMATION. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:51:44 +0300 From: esra atali e101130[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ORCA.CC.METU.EDU.TR Subject: No subject given yuuuuuuh yuuuuuuh ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:54:46 +0300 From: serkan dayan e111960[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ORCA.CC.METU.EDU.TR Subject: new I have just subscribed I want more information ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:36:23 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: Glass Ceiling Thomas Goetz in this week's Village Voice has a bit at the end of his "Press Clips" column speculating on the term "glass ceiling." "In this week's report on women's earnings, Barron's Gene Epstein traces the term 'glass ceiling' to a March 1996 coinage in it sister publication, The Wall Street Journal. But a random walk down Nexis shows U.P.I. used it in May 1985 and quoted the term in March 1984--two full years before the Journal." I somehow think this term is much older. Barry? Anyone? Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:29:52 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: PopChar I am sorry to bother my learned colleagues with such a simple, mechanical request, but I am in need of a simple solution. At home, In have recently becomea a 'Power Mac' user (I know, at my age!). In my old pre-PowerMac days, I had a nifty little program called 'PopChar' which displayed the entire character set of a font (and even let you select one from a on-screen utility while reminding you of the keystroke). The trash known as 'KeyCaps' is, of course, completely useless for this purpose (possibly the clumsiest thing ever written for what it should do). Alas, my beloved PopChar (which was even shareware!) will not run on this new damned PowerMac (Power my ass!). Does anyone know of a PowerMac-friendly utility which will let me see an entire character set at once (and, if optimal, drop in characters at will and remind me of the keystroke)? DInIs phnetiucs Thomas Goetz in this week's Village Voice has a bit at the end of his "Press Clips" column speculating on the term "glass ceiling." "In this week's report on women's earnings, Barron's Gene Epstein traces the term 'glass ceiling' to a March 1996 coinage in it sister publication, The Wall Street Journal. But a random walk down Nexis shows U.P.I. used it in May 1985 and quoted the term in March 1984--two full years before the Journal." I somehow think this term is much older. Barry? Anyone? Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 18:48:59 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Glass Ceiling [Corrected date] Thomas Goetz in this week's Village Voice has a bit at the end of his "Press Clips" column speculating on the term "glass ceiling." "In this week's report on women's earnings, Barron's Gene Epstein traces the term 'glass ceiling' to a March 1986 coinage in it sister publication, The Wall Street Journal. But a random walk down Nexis shows U.P.I. used it in May 1985 and quoted the term in March 1984--two full years before the Journal." I somehow think this term is much older. Barry? Anyone? Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 19:00:50 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE PopChar Try going to http://hyperarchive.lcs.mit.edu/HyperArchive.html It's a comprehensive archive of Mac demos and shareware. It allows you to do a search, so you can look up "key map" or "key caps" or "font layout" or "key assignments" and you're bound to come up with something good. Also, you might try www.versiontracker.com to see if there's an updated version of PopChar. I have just this minute finished installing a new router to connect to a 256K Interframe Internet access line, and my DNS is not working properly, so I can't check these things out to give you more specific recommendations. As for PowerMacs, have you seen the new G3 Macs with the PowerPC 750 chips? Fastest desktops in the world in tests, they say. Run cycles around Pentium II MMX. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 19:54:58 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: Character Display on Macintosh [Got the DNS working; had the filters set to prevent DNS traffic from passing. Doh!] Dennis (and interested observers): The latest version of PopChar is PopChar Pro 1.02 (from July 97) (as opposed to plain old PopChar 2.72, the un-pro version). Before you install any other program, try downloading it http://hyperarchive.lcs.mit.edu/HyperArchive/Archive/gui/popchar-pro-102.hqx and re-installing. It should work. If it still doesn't work, here are a couple of programs for viewing fonts on a Mac that you might try (all available from http://hyperarchive.lcs.mit.edu/HyperArchive.html). FontVu: Application, easy interface. Dump it into your Apple Menu Items folder in the System folder for easy access from the Apple Menu. Seemed a little slow, but I have a billion fonts installed and ATM set to anti-alias fonts on-screen, so who knows? QuickChar:Allows you to invoke the character representation with a keystroke. Uses control panel and system extension. Possibly more complex than necessary. FontClerk 6.2: Very comprehensive, definitely more complex than for the infrequent "is it option 'e' then the vowel?" kind of question. But still a good program. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 20:22:53 +0000 From: Buchmann buchmann[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BELLSOUTH.NET Subject: Re: PopChar What system are you using? I USE POPCHAR ON MY POWERMAC USING THE LAST UPGRADE OF 7.5; but I don't know about system eight. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:58:25 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: PopChar Thanks. I didn't try it on 7.5 or .6; I'm in 8.0. You might be right; it may not be just PowerrMac but also the sytem. Dennis What system are you using? I USE POPCHAR ON MY POWERMAC USING THE LAST UPGRADE OF 7.5; but I don't know about system eight. Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Dec 1997 to 3 Dec 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 1997 to 4 Dec 1997 There are 14 messages totalling 375 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Poker 2. Character Display on Macintosh -- THANK YOU! 3. BDS ? 4. No subject given 5. RE Glass Ceiling 6. Responsibility of (Was: No Heading) (2) 7. RE Re: PopChar 8. South Sea Salute 9. PopChar (3) 10. your mail 11. No Subject ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 01:00:00 -0500 From: "Barry A. Popik" Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Poker The language of this "sinful" game can be found in Puck, 12 December 1888, pg. 261, col. 1: THE "A B C" OF POKER. A is the "ante" and B is the "bluff," C is the cash, which is vulgarly "stuff," D is the "draw," a momentous event, E is for "elevate,"--takes your last cent. F is the fun that you have when you win, G is the "Gillie" who loses his "tin," H is the hand that is dealt to you "pat," I stands for "in," an important thing that. J is the "jack-pot" whose praises we sing, K is the "kitty," voracious young thing! L is the loser, he's always around, M is his money, which does not abound. N is the noodle that "plays up" two pair, O is the "opener" laying his snare, P is for POKER, our national game, Q stands for "quit"--but you don't, all the same. R is for "raise," and it often sounds hard, S is the "squeezer" that's marked on the card, T is the time that you waste--when you deal-- U is your "uncle," to whom you appeal. V was the "come in," you know, to your cost, W the "widow," who wins what you lost, X is the ten that you bet upon "trips," Y is the youngster who collared the chips. Z is the zeal with which one will expend Time, money and gas-light, to "do up" a friend. W. H. G. A long article on the origin of the name "poker" can be found in the NY Sun, 22 May 1904, section 2, pg. 12; it was reprinted in the January 1996 issue of Comments on Etymology. This is from the NY World, 4 January 1875, pg. 4, col. 6 and pg. 5, col. 1: GENERAL SCHENCK ON POKER (It was our hope and purpose to lay before our readers a complete copy of Robert C. Schenck's treatises on Poker, a brief which is destined to take rank with Deschapelles on Whist, and Major Jaenisch or Von der Linde on Chess. The brochure, however, is protected by a copyright...) EXTRACTS: ORIGIN OF POKER. Whist, as the name signifies, is a mute game and was invented, it is claimed, by the peers of England, who needed rest for their wearied tongues after haveing talked all day and half the night in Parliament. In the same way poker was needed to stir up the exhausted fires of our American orators, burnt out on the stump. No political campaign or session of Congress is possible, or endurable, without its poker accompaniments. "Short" whist is said to have originated from the game being cut in half one night to enable Lord Peterborough to recover some heavy losses, showing the aristocratic beginning even of this modification of the original game, which used to "walk its dull round" to "cheat the drowsy (?)cats." My countrymen do not like the savor of royalty and aristocracy which hangs around these olden games. They do not like to respect the symbolisms of power which they imply, nor to Behold four kings, in majesty revered, With hearty whiskers and a forky beard, And four fair queens, whose hands sustain a flower-- The expressive emblem of their softer power; Four knaves in garb succinct, a trusty band, Caps on their heads, and halberds in their hand: And parti-colored troops, a shining train, Draw forth to combat on the velvet plain. So far do they carry their repulsion that after poker, their favorite games are all-fours and euchre, in which plebians and knaves both capture and outcount the court cards. Poker is in every sense a republican game--one in which birth and rank go very little way, and self-assertion and enterprise a very great way. Poker is piquet cut down to proportions which enable the players to "scoop" their adversaries with the happiest despatch. It is the antipodes of a silent game, its essence lying in the art of bluffing and finessing. In poker, more than any other game, a cool face is better than a "cold deck." (We say a "deck" of cards in America, because the game used to be most often played on the decks of Western steamboats in the intervals between explosions.) The motto of poker is _carpe diem_, or rather _carpe dimes_, since the ordinary game is "ten cents ante." (...) For the term "passing the buck," RHHDAS has a good entry. This political use is from the NY Tribune, 3 August 1915, pg. 7, col. 5: 'PASSING THE BUCK INSULTS M'CALL (...) The members of the Public Service Commission had an opportunity yesterday to answer to the allegations of "passing the buck," and of ignoring the invitations to appear as witnesses before the Thompson legislative investigating committee, which were made by Chairman Thompson, of the committee. (...) Commissioners Cram and Wood declared heatedly that they had not been notified that they were wanted, and that they had not gone out of town for the purpose of "avoiding service," or "passing the buck." "The buck stops here"--didn't Janet Reno say that? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:32:45 +0000 From: S Tagliamonte st17[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YORK.AC.UK Subject: Re: Character Display on Macintosh -- THANK YOU! On Wed, 3 Dec 1997, Grant Barrett wrote: Dennis (and interested observers): The latest version of PopChar is PopChar Pro 1.02 (from July 97) (as opposed to plain old PopChar 2.72, the un-pro version). Before you install any other program, try downloading it http://hyperarchive.lcs.mit.edu/HyperArchive/Archive/gui/popchar-pro-102.hqx and re-installing. It should work. It worked perfectly and now I have re-established the much-appreciated POP-CHAR on my own computer. Thanks for providing that info to us "interested observers"... Sali Sali Tagliamonte Department of Languages & Linguistic Science University of York Office: 1904-432-656 Heslington, York, UK Fax: 1904-432-673 YO1 5DD E-mail: st17[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ebor.york.ac.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:06:11 +0000 From: Aaron Drews aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.ED.AC.UK Subject: BDS ? Does anybody know if there is a British equivlant to the ADS List? I vaguely remember somebody last year (or was it two or three years ago?) advertising such a list here, but I don't know if it ever got off the ground. Thanks for your help! Aaron ===================================================================== ====== Aaron E. Drews http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron Ph.D. Candidate +44 (0)131 650-3485 The University of Edinburgh fax: +44 (0)131 650-3962 Departments of Linguistics and English Language ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:31:34 -0500 From: Robert Ness ness[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DICKINSON.EDU Subject: No subject given I just finished 15 papers on Paradise Lost. Three of them described Adams' responsibility OF Eve's actions. Coincidence, collusion or something else? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:33:02 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: RE Glass Ceiling Thomas Goetz in this week's Village Voice has a bit at the end of his "Press Clips" column speculating on the term "glass ceiling." "In this week's report on women's earnings, Barron's Gene Epstein traces the term 'glass ceiling' to a March 1986 coinage in it sister publication, The Wall Street Journal. But a random walk down Nexis shows U.P.I. used it in May 1985 and quoted the term in March 1984--two full years before the Journal." I somehow think this term is much older. Barry? Anyone? I don't think it's much older. MW10 cites 1986 for its first example, and OEDAS III has one from 1984; our evidence doesn't start to get heavy until 1988 or so. It could be somewhat older, but it doesn't seem like it's that old. Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:48:15 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Responsibility of (Was: No Heading) At 09:31 AM 12/4/97 -0500, you wrote: I just finished 15 papers on Paradise Lost. Three of them described Adams' responsibility OF Eve's actions. Coincidence, collusion or something else? Maybe they (con)fuse responsibility (for) with control or charge (of). Or (this is a joke!) they are taking advantage of the fact that English was still loose about some issues in the mid 17C -- I was just discussing on another list the mid-17C poet Marvell's use of uncessant rather than modern incessant. Maybe not a joke, though -- OED2 has a separately numbered submeaning 1b for "responsibility" as constructed with "of," citing Dickens in Old Cur. Shop and Wilkie Collins in Black Robe. (Submeaning 1c, constructed with "for," gives a first cite from Shaw in Man & Superman....) "Responsibility of": Survival or solecism? The lady or the tiger.... Now if they write "responsability" (aargh, and not given as an orthographoic variant in OED), that's a hearse of a different color.... Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:17:21 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Re: PopChar I have it running on System 8.0 with no problems. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com -------------------------------------- From: Dennis R. Preston Thanks. I didn't try it on 7.5 or .6; I'm in 8.0. You might be right; it may not be just PowerrMac but also the sytem. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:19:03 -0500 From: Brenda Lester brenles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CODY.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: South Sea Salute Does anyone know the derivation of "South Sea Salute"? I suspect that it is an obscene gesture? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:03:02 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: PopChar I just installed System 8 on my Performa 575 (68k processor) a month ago. PopChar doesn't work under it: The teeny icon ("P" in a box) appears in the menu bar, but the pgm doesn't come up. I'll try the sources Grant mentioned. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:45:25 -0400 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: PopChar Do so; I did it, and it worked for me. A happy DInIs I just installed System 8 on my Performa 575 (68k processor) a month ago. PopChar doesn't work under it: The teeny icon ("P" in a box) appears in the menu bar, but the pgm doesn't come up. I'll try the sources Grant mentioned. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 07:32:50 -1000 From: Norman Roberts nroberts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAWAII.EDU Subject: Re: Responsibility of (Was: No Heading) At 09:31 AM 12/4/97 -0500, you wrote: I just finished 15 papers on Paradise Lost. Three of them described Adams' responsibility OF Eve's actions. Coincidence, collusion or something else? Maybe they (con)fuse responsibility (for) with control or charge (of). Or (this is a joke!) they are taking advantage of the fact that English was still loose about some issues in the mid 17C -- I was just discussing on another list the mid-17C poet Marvell's use of uncessant rather than modern incessant. Maybe not a joke, though -- OED2 has a separately numbered submeaning 1b for "responsibility" as constructed with "of," citing Dickens in Old Cur. Shop and Wilkie Collins in Black Robe. (Submeaning 1c, constructed with "for," gives a first cite from Shaw in Man & Superman....) "Responsibility of": Survival or solecism? The lady or the tiger.... Now if they write "responsability" (aargh, and not given as an orthographoic variant in OED), that's a hearse of a different color.... Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu Confusion of "of", "for," and ""from" is a very common error among insecure writers. I think a behavioral explanation works in this case. It's very easy to transpose letters in writing or typing (I do it all the time). If a person means to write "for," but inadvertantly transposes the "o" and the "f," spelling habits will likely cause the writer to stop and go on to the next word. I admit I have no reliable evidence for this conjecture, but 27 years of teaching freshman composition [They made me do it or they wouldn't let me teach linguistics] gives certain insights into the mechanical nature of handwriting and typing habits. A spelling checker would not catch the error, a grammar checker takes too long, and it's very easy to read what you thought you wrote instead of what you actually wrote when you hastily check your writing. While ignorance is pretty much in evidence in college writing, scribal error is frequently the simplest explanation. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:54:29 -0800 From: Peter Richardson prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: your mail I just finished 15 papers on Paradise Lost. Three of them described Adams' responsibility OF Eve's actions. Coincidence, collusion or something else? Something else. Those papers were all typed on an old Royal manual that has no R key. PR ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:17:16 EST From: EMB1210 EMB1210[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: No Subject NOMAIL ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 15:24:47 -0600 From: Barbara Need nee1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: PopChar What word processor are you using? Word 6.0 (and 5.1, for that matter) certainly have an insert character window which will show you all of the characters in your font. I am fairly sure there is something similar in Word Perfect. Barbara Need University of Chicago--Linguistics ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 1997 to 4 Dec 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 4 Dec 1997 to 5 Dec 1997 There are 17 messages totalling 492 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. There Was a Little Girl; O.K.; Onion; Poker; Billiards; Glass Ceiling 2. "Ich bin ein Berliner" (3) 3. PopChar (2) 4. seeking Ebonics info 5. Southern dialectology 6. There Was a Little Girl 7. Judas Q. Priest (5) 8. Uvular R 9. help with a word history (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 02:24:09 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: There Was a Little Girl; O.K.; Onion; Poker; Billiards; Glass Ceiling THERE WAS A LITTLE GIRL There was a little girl Who had a little curl Right in the middle of her forehead; When she was good She was very, very good, But when she was bad, She was horrid. "There Was a Little Girl," 1883, Henry Wadsworth Longfellow (as quoted on page 298 of Stuart Beg Flexner's LISTENING TO AMERICA.) That 1883 date would take some doing. Henry Wadworth Longfellow was born in 1807 and died in 1882. (I'm not even trying to find these things, I swear!) Neither the AMERICAN HERITAGE DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN QUOTATIONS nor BARTLETT'S date the poem; Bartlett's goes in chronological order and lists the poem between 1879 and 1882 poems. Tom Dalzell didn't ask for "sin poems," but this is a famous one. In baseball slang, pitchers are sometimes called "the girl with the curl." The fastball can be "working," and the pitcher is very, very good. Or the pitcher is very, very bad and gives up home runs, and heads for an early shower. Philip Roth wrote a book called WHEN SHE WAS GOOD. I tried this phrase on the internet, and the Spice Girls came up. A 1997 book by Patricia Pearson is titled WHEN SHE WAS BAD--VIOLENT WOMEN AND THE MYTH OF INNOCENCE. There's not much for anyone to add here, except for an idiot like me, who checks the New York Sun, 14 March 1871, pg. 2, col. 7: There was a little girl, And she had a little curl That hung right down on her forehead. And when she was good She was very, very good, But when she was bad, she was horrid. This (two days later) is from the New York Sun, 16 March 1871, pg. 2, col. 7: A feeble contribution to the volume which shall contain the story of the "Little Girl who had a Little Curl:" There was a little boy Who had for a toy A clothes-line hung on a pulley He would often seize the end, And be hoisted by a friend Remarking meanwhile, "Oh, it's bully!" Great! First Henry Clay, now Henry Longfellow! The Sun's poems are unattributed. I haven't researched this, but they're earlier than the published Longfellow poem. Also, for a six-line poem, three lines are slightly different! Do we have a stolen or an early "girl"? Until I get to the library... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- OTTO KIMMEL'S COOKIES (O. K.) The Massachusetts Historical Society had nothing about a supposed Boston baker named Otto Kimmel, who put "O. K." on his vanilla cookies. The Boston Society looked for the name in census records and didn't find it. This doesn't mean that the Chicago Tribune note I posted recently is wrong (Kimmel's bakery might have been in a Boston suburb), but there's nothing at this time that supports it. Unfortunately, I don't know where the Chicago Tribune poster got his information. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ ONION (BASEBALL) Moving from cookies to onions, the RHHDAS has July 1917 for when a baseball was called an "onion" (it was also called an "apple," a "pill," and other names). In the Milwaukee Journal, 3 October 1916, pg. 12, the comic strip "IN BASEBALL BEANTOWN," the catcher says, "You don't have to pitch. Just hand me th' onion!" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ POKER, continued In the New York Sun, "POKER FOR JOHNNY BULL," 4 March 1871, pg. 3, col. 2, there are: ...threes of "tray." ..."the downs"--that is, offering to bet as much money as all on the table. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- BILLIARD WORLD In the New York Sun, "THE CHAMPION'S LAWSUIT/ AN EXPOSURE OF THE SECRETS OF THE BILLIARD WORLD," 18 February 1871, pg. 3, col. 3: ...he has been regarded as a "LUNCHER" AND A MACER." Mr. Rudd--I object, your Honor. Witness (continuing)--By a "macer" I mean a "striker," a man who will strike his victim for ten cents up to as much as that victim will stand; a "luncher" is a-- ...Humphreys deliberately "THREW A GAME" on which $200 was bet, for $25. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- GLASS CEILING Back in the '70s, guys had "glass ceilings" for their sexual conquests. I never understood this. Say the woman is on the bottom. She looks up at the glass ceiling, checks out the guy's butt--maybe that's why you don't see 'em anymore! The perfect publication for this phrase is WORKING WOMAN magazine (1976--). So late today (the library closes at about 6:45 p.m.) I went to SIBL, the New York Public Library's Science Industry, and Business Library on 34th Street. They didn't have WORKING WOMAN. It's on microfilm at the 42nd Street Library--which closed at 5:45 p.m. today! I calmly, calmly pointed out that this is the Science, Industry, and BUSINESS Library, and that the publication is called WORKING WOMAN, and that not only WOULD IT MAKE PERFECT SENSE for this branch to have it, but I had gone on the internet the night before and IT SAID THAT THIS F**KING BRANCH HAD IT!!!!!! I'm perfectly calm. I won't hit the ceiling... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:31:23 +0000 From: David Bergdahl bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: "Ich bin ein Berliner" Duane Campbell wrote: At 12:37 PM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote: When time permits, I'll send along some other examples of gaffes in communication. Two come to mind now. During his presidency, George Bush visited Australia, and flashed the V (for Victory) sign when getting off the plane. I remember the American newspapers explaining the next day that in Australia that sign is an indecent gesture. I wonder what the Aussies thought of Churchill. \ Duane Campbell dcamp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]epix.net http://www.epix.net/~dcamp/ It's not just limited to Aussies. The significant feature that makes this iconic sign obscene is the side of the hand facing outwards; Field Marshall Montgomery, I believe, once erred is giving a "Fuck Off" sign where "Victory" would have been more appropriate. I *think* the obscene version is with the inside of the hand [and knuckles] visible and victory the back of the hand--but I could be wrong. -- _____________________________________________________________________ david.bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ohiou.edu Ohio University / Athens http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl Ellis Hall 114c tel: (740) 593-2783 [no office hrs during fax: (740) 593-2818 break, only by appt] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:31:30 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: PopChar Barbara, You are right, of course. (I use 6.0 and 5.1), but their 'character windows' are not nearly as handy and nifty as PopChar (which is now back up and running on my PowerMac thanks to suggestions from members of this list). DInIs PS: Up here in Michigan we call it Word Imperfect What word processor are you using? Word 6.0 (and 5.1, for that matter) certainly have an insert character window which will show you all of the characters in your font. I am fairly sure there is something similar in Word Perfect. Barbara Need University of Chicago--Linguistics Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:36:00 +0000 From: David Bergdahl bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: "Ich bin ein Berliner" Kendra Banks Perry wrote: When I was in Austria studying German, my teacher told us that the word "Berliner" does indeed refer to a jelly doughnut in some areas (every little district seems to have different words for pastries). He said that Kennedy's remark was, however, easily understood with its original intent and was not the disastrous gaffe some people make it out to be. Kendra Banks Perry banks[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]andrews.edu http://www.andrews.edu/~banks There is no question that Kennedy's utterance was interpretable in the sense he meant it, but I believe the usual utterance would be "Ich komme aus Berlin"--the "Ich bin. . ." sounds like a calque. -- _____________________________________________________________________ david.bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ohiou.edu Ohio University / Athens http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl Ellis Hall 114c tel: (740) 593-2783 [no office hrs during fax: (740) 593-2818 break, only by appt] ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:45:50 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: "Ich bin ein Berliner" David Bergdahl writes: There is no question that Kennedy's utterance was interpretable in the sense he meant it, but I believe the usual utterance would be "Ich komme aus Berlin"--the "Ich bin. . ." sounds like a calque. Interesting. For an English speaker, "I am a New Yorker" is quite different from "I am from New York". Is the distinction neutralized in German? LH ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:13:27 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: seeking Ebonics info The following appeared on the LINGUIST list, # 8-1720. Please do NOT reply to me. -------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 15:38:11 -0800 From: Valencia Young valencia.young[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]snet.net Subject: Ebonics I am interested in obtaining literature on Ebonics. Are there any audio cassette tapes available that compare Ebonics or Black English to Standard English? Are there and questionnaires available that have been used to seek public opinion regarding Ebonics or Black English? Any assistance would be greatly appreciated. Thank You. Valencia ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:16:34 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: PopChar Barbara Need writes: What word processor are you using? Word 6.0 (and 5.1, for that matter) certainly have an insert character window which will show you all of the characters in your font. I am fairly sure there is something similar in Word Perfect. I use ClarisWorks, SimpleText, and occasional other things. And WordPerfect has the nasty habit (at least in Wintel-based programs) of using special fonts and character codes that nothing else can make sense of. (And sometimes I even want to use some of these characters in a file name, where I'm dealing directly with the Finder.) Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:30:45 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Southern dialectology The following appeared on the LINGUIST list, #8-1727. Please do NOT reply to me. -------------------------------------------- Date: 01 Dec 97 13:10:15 CST From: TWRIGHT TWRIGHT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACCDVM.ACCD.EDU Subject: Southern Dialectology Does anyone know of a good reference work in Southern (U.S.) dialectology? Specifically, I am looking for a descriptive work on the phonological and syntactic characteristics of Southern dialect(s). Even fairly old references would be welcome if they were done from the standpoint of descriptive linguistics. Of course there are plenty of prosaic and pre-theoretical descriptions of Southern speech, but I'm looking for something rigorous done by a linguist. Works on a specific dialect within what we consider "Southern English" would be welcome, or works on Southern English in general. Thanks! - Tony Wright twright[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]accdvm.accd.edu St. Philip's College San Antonio, Texas ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:57:34 EST From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: There Was a Little Girl From _Familiar Quotations_ by John Bartlett, 13th ed. 1955: "Blanche Roosevelt Tucker, in _The Home Life of Henry W. Longfellow_ [1882], states that these lines were written by the poet for his children on a day when Edith did not want to have her hair curled." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:48:48 -0500 From: Brenda Lester brenles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CODY.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Judas Q. Priest Has anyone ever heard "Judas Q. Priest"? There is a "John Q. Public." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:03:46 -0500 From: Brenda Lester brenles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CODY.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Judas Q. Priest In Carol Kleiman's column of January 5, 1995, in the _Chicago Tribune_, she writes about a PC screen producing "strange klingons." Any ideas? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:27:40 -0500 From: Denis Anson danson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MISERI.EDU Subject: Re: Judas Q. Priest I have heard many folks in the Pacific Northwest use "Judas Priest" as a "more polite" version of Jesus Christ in swearing. I've not heard it with the "Q", but would suspect that that is homologous to Jesus H. (for Horatio) Christ. This latter has currency at least as far back as Samuel Clemens youth, as he describes in his autobiography. Denis Anson, MS, OTR/L | Author of Computer Access Specialist | Alternative Computer Access: College Misericordia | Making Appropriate Selections 301 Lake Street | Published by Dallas, PA 18612-1098 | FA Davis -----Original Message----- From: Brenda Lester [SMTP:brenles[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CODY.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU] Sent: Friday, December 05, 1997 12:49 PM To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Subject: Judas Q. Priest Has anyone ever heard "Judas Q. Priest"? There is a "John Q. Public." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 16:12:08 -0800 From: Peter Richardson prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: Judas Q. Priest the "Q", but would suspect that that is homologous to Jesus H. (for Horatio) Christ. This latter has currency at least as far back as Samuel I thought H. stood for "Haploid." Well, live and learn... ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 00:51:41 -0000 From: Muhammed Suleiman xtr08[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DIAL.PIPEX.COM Subject: Uvular R Dear List Members, can anyone tell me if there are any dialects in the USA which use the uvular variety of R in their speech, a variety similar to the French R-Grasseye', or similar to High German. Thanking you all in anticipation, Dr M. Suleiman ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 20:45:20 EST From: Arnold Zwicky zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.OHIO-STATE.EDU Subject: Re: Judas Q. Priest no, no, it's Judas *X* Priest! or so it was in my teens and 20s... arnold (zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ohio-state.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:44:03 -0500 From: Peggy Smith dj611[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU Subject: help with a word history Is there anyone who can provide me with a brief history of the phrase "welsh (or welch) on a bet"? Does it have an ethnic origin and if so, what exactly is the stereotype I have been inadvertently perpetrating in using the expression? Thanks for your help. Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 22:23:14 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: help with a word history At 09:44 PM 12/5/97, you (Peggy Smith dj611[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cleveland.Freenet.Edu ) wrote: Is there anyone who can provide me with a brief history of the phrase "welsh (or welch) on a bet"? Does it have an ethnic origin and if so, what exactly is the stereotype I have been inadvertently perpetrating in using the expression? Thanks for your help. Peggy Smith OED2 lists welsh v. (variant spelling, welch) as "of obscure origin." Webster's New Universal Unabridged speculates "special use of Welsh?" No time to get up and look at more dictionaries right now. Do others have other sources to hand? Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Dec 1997 to 5 Dec 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 5 Dec 1997 to 6 Dec 1997 There are 5 messages totalling 458 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Judas Q. Priest (2) 2. Whist (really long article!!) 3. Humbug 4. Gravegate; Judas Q. Priest; Sidewalk Santas; Glass Ceiling, YAP(Yuppie) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 08:41:47 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: Judas Q. Priest Arnold is exactly right Don't you guys know famous peoples' middle names! Jesus H. Christ Judas X. Priest John Q. Public The ONLY acceptable variant was 'Fucking' but it works for the first two only (*John Fucking Public), and it is not clear to me that it was a 'name.' It might have been an extended case of putative 'infixing' - e.g., 'inci-fucking-dentally.' DInIs no, no, it's Judas *X* Priest! or so it was in my teens and 20s... arnold (zwicky[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ohio-state.edu) Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 09:18:30 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: Judas Q. Priest Funny, maybe it's postmodernism or minimalism, but I've known it as simply Judas Priest! beth simon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 23:23:28 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Whist (really long article!!) This excellent, excellent (but long) article on whist is from the NY Sun, 16 January 1898, section two, pg. 10, cols. 1-2: QUEER TERMS IN WHIST. --------------------------------------- NOMENCLATURE THAT IS PUZZLING TO A BEGINNER. --------------------------------------- A Great Change from the Good Old Days of "Second Hand Low, Third Hand High" to the Times of "Guerillas," "Potential Tenaces" and "Twice-Guarded Jacks"-- What It All Means--A Lexicon of Whist. --------------------------------------- The continual spread and growth in popularity of whist during the last few years has been remarkable in many respects, and the changes that have taken place in the tactics of the game have amounted almost to a revolution. The good old days, when such simple maxims as "second hand low, third hand high," were sufficient for the average player have passed away, and a person now requires months of careful training before he can acquit himself decently, even in a social game. In 1889 there were only two teachers in this country, and the only paper that ever referred to the game was the _Boston Herald_. To-day there are several teachers in every large city and no fewer than forty-two newspapers have regular whist departments edited by some skilful player or well-known author. A quiet rubber in the home circle or at the club was then the extent of the player's ambition, but now teams of experts travel hundreds of miles just to play a single match of forty-eight deals against a rival club. All the large cities have annual tournaments to decided the supremacy of the local clubs; State associations have been formed all over the country and valuable trophies are played for every week; the American Whist League holds its annual congress for the discussion of the laws and the play for championship honors. This organization has upon its lists nearly 20,000 members and publishes an official organ devoted exclusively to the interests of the game. The increase and concentration of attention upon any subject naturally tend to develop it in various ways, and among other things to increase and complicate its nomenclature. The technical terms in use at the whist table ten years ago were few and easily understood, but to-day they are so numerous that none but the expert undestands them all. THE SUN continually receives letters like the following, asking for an explanation of certain phrases which are used in connection with the published analyses of illustrative hands: TO THE EDITOR OF THE SUN--_Sir:_ While I have played whist for a number of years and have become very much interested in "around the Whist Table," as published in THE RUN, there are many words applied to the game of which I do not comprehend the meaning, and beg to ask if you will kindly advise me what is the technical meaning for 'finesse,' 'guerrilla.' 'led his own singleton,' 'ruff,' 'cross-ruff,' 'tenace and minor tenace,' 'potential tenace,' 'force,' 'leading spades to an honor,' 'twice guarded jack,' 'top of nothing,' &c. "These expressions have a meaning incomprehensible to me, and I acknowledge my ignorance in the hope that you will be good enough to explain them, as I am honestly endeavoring to obtain a thorough knowledge of the fascinating game of whist. "W. A. R., RAHWAY, N. J." The foregoing letter gives a long but far from complete list of the terms which confuse the novice at the whist table. One of the most common difficulties with the beginner is to grasp the meaning of the terms used in describing particular combinations of cards. Even experts are not thoroughly familiar with many of them. It should be observed that whenever a number is mentioned it embraces all the cards in the suit spoken of, whether any particulars are added or not. A few of the more common forms of such expressions are: "Ace fifth in spades." "Ace to five hearts." "King third in diamonds." "Queen jack to four clubs." In each of these the figure expresses the total number of cards in the suit. "Ace fifth" means that the ace was the fifth spade. "Ace to five" does not mean that the player held the ace and five other hearts, but that the ace belonged to the combination of five cards in the heart suit. "King third" means that there were three diamonds, of which the king was the best. There were only four clubs, including the queen and jack. If a person speaks of having four spades to an honor, he means that one of his spades was the ace, king, queen or jack, but that he did not hold two of those cards. Combinations of high cards, when spoken of without regard to the total number in the suit, are divided into two classes, sequences and tenaces, and these again are further distinguished according to their rank. Although, properly speaking, a sequence must be composed of a series of at least three things next in value to one another, the word is used in whist for two only, such as king and queen, because there is no word in any language that expresses the idea of two things next to each other in rank. A head sequence is the ace, king, queen, sometimes called the "tierce major." The "quart major" is the ace, king, queen, jack. If the sequence is of inferior rank, it is named after the highest card. "A tierce to the queen" means a series of queen, jack, ten. There are also "intermediate sequences," such as jack, ten, nine in a suit, which also contains the ace and deuce. The cards of a sequence are sometimes spoken of as "indifferent cards," because one is as good as the other for trick taking purposes. Many persons think when an indifferent card is spoken of it means one of no value. Cards of equal value, if not actually the highest of the suit, are never spoken of as tierce majors, but as the three "best" cards. If the ace of spades has been played and you hold the king, queen, jack, you have not the tierce major, but the three best spades. "Tenaces" are a continual stumbling block to the beginner, on account of their variety. The word has nothing to do with ten and ace, although many persons imagine so. The "major tenace" is always the best and the third best of the unplayed cards of a suit; the ace and queen if the suit has not been touched. The "minor tenace" is the second and fourth best, the king and jack in an unplayed suit. When we speak of the "double" major tenace, the ace, queen, and ten are always meant, but the cards composing the simple major and minor tenaces may vary every time the suit is played. If a suit has been led once or twice, the queen and seven may become the major tenace, while the minor tenace may be the nine and four. It is not necessary to state exactly what the cards were if you are explaining a position at the whist table, the idea of advantage being distinctly conveyed by the statement that you held the major tenace over a given player. "Potential tenaces" are combinations that will become tenaces after a certain intermediate card falls. The ace and jack form a potential tenace, because they become the major tenace if either the king or queen falls. The king and ten form a potential tenace, becoming the minor if the queen or jack falls; the major if ace-jack or ace-queen fall. The French players do not use the word tenace, but call all such combinations _fourchettes_. The word expresses the idea of a fork, the space between the prongs representing the missing cards of the sequence. English- speaking players make quite a distinction between tenace and _fourchette_, and insist that the tenace must always be at the top of the suit, whereas a _fourchette_ is a combination in one hand of the cards immediately above and below the one played by the right-hand adversary. If you hold ace-queen and the player on your right leads a small card, you hold major tenace, but not _fourchette_. If he leads the king you hold _fourchette_, because the card he plays fills the space between the prongs of your fork. _Fourchettes_ may be of any rank. The eight and six are _fourchette_ over the seven at any time, but they will not be major tenace until all the cards in that suit above the eight have been played. _Fourchettes_ are sometimes composed of cards widely separated. The queen and seven, for instance, will be _fourchette_ over the jack if the eight, nine and ten have been played. "Imperfect _fourchettes_" are forks with a prong missing. If the player on your right leads a queen and you hold king-ten you have an "imperfect" _fourchette_ because the jack is not in your hand. The king and ten would not be an imperfect _fourchette_ over the jack, however, because the higher card must be the one immediately above the one led by the player on your right, or it is not a _fourchette_ at all. Good players always "cover" with _fourchettes_, whether perfect or not. "Covering" is putting on a higher card than the one led or played, but not the best of the suit. If the player on your right leads a ten, and you hold ace-jack and deuce, you "pass" if you play the deuce; you "cover" if you play the jack, and you "win" if you play the ace. Many persons confuse the terms "honors" and "court cards." Honors are the cards that rank highest in the game being played. In whist there are four honors--ace, king, queen, and jack; in bridge whist the ten is included. The court cards are the three in each suit that have pictures--the king, queen, and jack. The ace is almost invariable an honor in card games, but is never a court card. When players "court honors" at whist they refer to honors in the trump suit only. The ace is the best card of any suit, but a player may speak of having the best of the suit without meaning the ace. He refers to the best card which is still unplayed in that suit. The same is true in speaking of the second best, for it does not matter whether the card was the king or the four, the idea conveyed being simply that some player still held a better card in that suit. When a person speaks of holding the second best "guarded," he means that even if the player with the best of the suit were to lead it he could not catch the second best, because it was accompanied by a smaller card. A "twice-guarded jack" means that it would take three leads to catch it. A twice-guarded queen cannot be caught if led up to, because the two guards can be played to the ace and king, leaving the queen the best of the suit. If one player has the queen and his partner the jack, and either of those cards is twice guarded, the other once only, it is impossible for the adversaries to catch them both, no matter how they play. The player left with the best card of any suit is said to "command" that suit, and the French call such cards "masters;" but when the command is against him he is said to hold a "losing card." If a person tells you he had two "losing spades," he means that if he got the lead he would lose two spade tricks. A "losing trump" is the only one remaining unplayed. There are some special terms applied to the trump suit. "Weak trumps," for instance, mean that the player has not enough of them to justify him in refusing to trump "doubtful" tricks. Any trick is doubtful to the second player when the card led is not the best and he does not know whether his partner or the third hand will win it. "Strong trumps" are usually four or more, and such strength usually warrants passing doubtful tricks and greater freedom in finessing. In addition to these terms there are quite a number which refer chiefly to the strategy of the game, such as "finessing," "ruffing," "forcing," "underplay," &c. "Finessing" is trying to win a trick without giving up the best card you hold in the suit. If your partner leads a small card and you hold ace-queen and others, you "finesse" when you play the queen, and the card you finesse against is the king, which you hope is not on your left. When a person finesses "deeply" he is finessing against more than one card. To play the ten with the ace in your hand would be a deep finesse, as there are three cards which will win the trick, any one of which may be on your left. Finesses are usually made by the third hand, sometimes by the second. If the leader tries to win a trick with a card which is not the best of the suit it is called "underplay," if he holds the best card himself. If you have the king, jack, and ten of a suit of which the ace has been played, and have reason to believe that the queen is on your left, it is an underplay if you lead the ten in the hope that the second hand will not put on his queen. "Forcing" is compelling a player to do something that he does not want to do, usually making him trump a suit when he is very anxious to keep his trumps for leading. If he will not trump it is called "refusing the force." Common usage has extended the term to cases in which you lead a suit for your partner to "ruff," not with any intention of forcing him against his will, but in order to gain tricks. Some players call this "ruffing your partner," as distinguished from "forcing" him when he does not want to be forced. When two partners alternately trump different suits it is a "cross-ruff," or "saw." Some persons deliberately play for a ruff by leading "singletons," or "sneaks." These are suits containing one card only, which is led for the special purpose of ruffing the second round. Persons who habitually lead such cards are called "guerrillas," because it is not considered legitimate warfare to make a practice of leading sneaks, although some persons prefer such an opening to leading away from single honors, or opening suits in which they hold a tenace. If a player leads a suit which is very weak, but is not a singleton, it is called the "top of nothing," because the suit contains no possible trick and the lead is intended to warn the partner to keep that suit quiet. In the old days these were called "forced leads," because players did not like to make them; but modern investigation has completely dispelled that prejudice, and one never hears of forced leads now. If these weak leads are cards as high as the jack, ten or nine, they are called "strengthening cards," because although they are of no practical trick-taking value to the leader, they may be useful in giving the partner a good finesse. When the partner refuses to play his best card on such leads it is called "ducking." If you lead a ten, second hand plays queen, and your partner will not put on his ace, he is said to "duck the trick." His object is to win the second round and then force you. There are quite a number of other technical terms used in whist, most of which refer to special plays. The "Bath coup," for instance, is holding up the ace and jack of a suit in which the adversary leads the king, so that you may remain with the major instead of with the minor tenace. "Unblocking" is giving up high cards in a suit in which you have reason to believe that your partner has more cards than you have. The object is to get out of his way and let his small cards win tricks. The "Blue Peter" is the call for trumps: playing a higher card before a lower when no attempt is made to win the trick. "Establishing" a suit is getting all the higher cards out of the way of smaller ones, which so become the best. "Bringing in" an established suit is getting into the lead and making the small cards of a suit after the adverse trumps have been exhausted: this is usually accomplished by means of "re-entry cards," which are the master cards in other suits, or the "long" trumps. "Echoing" is holding up the smallest card of a suit until the second round, so that your partner may know you have four. This is usually confined to the trump suit. "Bumblepuppy" is playing whist without any knowledge of its fundamental principles of in defiance of them. Those who play bumblepuppy are usually spoken of as "duffers." A "coup" is a brilliant stroke or play; something out of the ordinary run of whist tactics. The "grand coup" is trumping a trick already won by your partner. "False cards" are those played with a view to deceive the adversary as to the location of the command of a suit. "Piano hands," or "aeolians," are those in which there is no opportunity for brilliant play and out of which players of widely different ability would make the same number of tricks. "Post mortems" at whist, sometimes called "If-you-hads," consist chiefly in pointing out to the partner what he might have done if he could have seen through the backs of your cards. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 23:21:49 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Humbug This previously unrecorded citation is from the (London) Sporting Magazine, September 1793, pp. 361-362: ACCOUNT of the GAME of HUMBUG THIS Game is said to derive its origin from the late Mr. Lookup* who was, at least, a great adept at it, though he never played any other than the fair game. It was in great vogue at the rooms at Bath, and is still played in all polite circles. Humbug may properly be called two handed whist, as only two persons play, without reckoning honours. The cards are shuffled and cut; the lowest deals out all the cards, and turns up the last for the trump. Each player has now twenty-six cards in his hand, and the object is to make as many tricks as they can; all the laws of whist prevailing, the cards being of the same value as when four play, but the honours do not reckon any farther than they prevail in making tricks by their superiority over inferior, and the tricks reckon for one to as many as are gained; for instance: if one player has twenty tricks, and the other only six, the first wins fourteen; and if they play a guinea a trick, of course, wins fourteen guineas. The game finishes every deal, when the balance is settled, and they then commence another game. As each player knows, at first, all the cards his adversary has in his hand, it is common, in order to sort them, to lay them with their faces up; but after they have ranged them, and begun to play, they are as careful of concealing their cards as they are at the common game of whist; it then depending upon memory to know what cards has been played, and which remains in hand; and as it is allowed only to turn up the last trick to see what has been played, a revoke is punished with the same rigour at this game as at whist; and the forfeiting three tricks is often of more value at this, than at the former game. *See the memoirs of this gentleman in our last, pg. 232. From page 232: MEMOIRS of MR. LOOKUP, a character of the first magnitude in the HISTORY of GAMING. Page 234 continues: Nay, it was averred that he died with a pack of cards in his hand, at his favourite game _humbug_, or two-handed whist; on which Sam Foote jocularly observed, "That Lookup was _humbugged_ out of the world at last." "Lookup" was supposedly a contemporary of Lord Chesterfield. If they both played Humbug, then that would be earlier than the OED 1751 "humbug" citation. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 23:24:13 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Gravegate; Judas Q. Priest; Sidewalk Santas; Glass Ceiling, YAP(Yuppie) GRAVEGATE Today's (Saturday, Dec. 6) New York Post refers to the Arlington cemetery mess as "Gravegate." C'mon, you saw this coming a mile away! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- JUDAS Q. PRIEST These Judas Q. Priest postings on ADS-L are very distressing to me. I posted--RIGHT HERE!--the earliest citations anywhere of both Judas Q. Priest and John Q. Public. The later was posted less than 30 days ago. No one remembers?? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- SIDEWALK SANTAS More stuff and an earlier citation! Newsweek of 27 December 1976, "Enter Krishna Kringle," pg. 26, has "Sidewalk Santa Claus" and "Krishna Santa." These Santas called out, "Ho, ho, ho, Hare Krishna!" The New York Times Magazine, 2 December 1956, "Wanted: Santa Clauses," has "Santa Clausing" on page 74, col. 2, and "department-store Santas" on page 77, col. 2. A further check of the Volunteers of America's VOLUNTEER GAZETTE shows: December 1950, Volunteer Gazette, pg. 3. The headline is: "STREET CORNER SANTAS. When the Volunteers of America Kris Kringle Makes His Appearance, Can Christmas Be Far Behind?" December 1951, Volunteer Gazette, cover. "Sidewalk Santa Claus." December 1955, Volunteer Gazette, pg. 2. "(About the cover.) A Volunteers of America Sidewalk Santa--John Matson when he's not helping out the real St. Nicholas--mans his chimney at Rockefeller Center, New York City." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- GLASS CEILING I checked WORKING WOMAN and also MS. (on which I ran out of time today before hitting 1986). Mary Cunningham wrote a 1984 book called POWERPLAY: WHAT REALLY HAPPENED AT BENDIX. I didn't see "glass ceiling" in it. In March 1984, WORKING WOMAN did a feature article called, "Women in Corporations: just how far have we come?" It did NOT have "glass ceiling." Thus, we can probably conclude that "glass ceiling" hadn't been coined--or it would have been mentioned here. The January 1986 issue had, "1986 Salary Survey/ Break Through Your Salary Ceiling!" Still not here!! October 1986 was a special issue dedicated to "The Year of the Corporate Woman." This article was on pages 107-109: Cracks in the Glass Ceiling How Women Really Are Faring In Corporate America by Julia Kagan The naysayers are at it again--from last March's special _Wall Street Journal_ section on corporate women telling us women have hit the glass ceiling and can go no futher (Gotta check the WSJ, but that's in SIBL and Working Woman was in, oh never mind!--ed.) to the July '86 _Inc._ magazine cover story proclaiming that few entrepreneurial women are equipped to make it big in businesses of their own. (...) When we wrote about them in April 1985, we called them the Breakthrough Generation. (...) (I didn't see "glass ceiling" there, but I'll recheck--ed.) A related story on page 110 is "The Glass House Dilemma/ Why Women Executives Dare Not Fail." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- YAP (YUPPIE) This is from WORKING WOMAN, March 1984, pg. 122: YAP: IT'S MORE THAN PAY SPELLED BACKWARDS Remember when success wasn't something you dressed for? When people ate Sunday dinner instead of brunch? When the fast track was for express trains? Well, those days are as dead as the era of dashikis and long hair. Walk around at lunchtime in any fair-sized city in America, and chances are you'll find yourself surrounded by Young Aspiring Professionals (YAPs), who are fast becoming the emblem of the 80s. (In fact, you might even be a YAP yourself.) by C. E. Crimmins What's all this about YAPs you may have been hearing lately? Well, typical YAPs are 25 to 40 years old, well educated, well motivated, well dressed and well exercised. You may be one yourself. Try taking the YQ (Yap Quotient) test to see how fast you've tracked to YAPpiness. (...) YAP borrows from JAP (Jewish American Princess) as well as YIP (Youth International Party). It's "PAY" spelled backwards! Perhaps some people didn't like the fact that "YAP" also means someone who talks a lot. So it got changed to--yes--"YUP" (Young Urban Professional). The earliest "yuppie" citations are in January 1984, but if this article appeared in the March 1984 monthly, it was on the stands in February 1984 and written in either January 1984 or December 1983. Time to hit the old Nexis for "YAP." ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Dec 1997 to 6 Dec 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 6 Dec 1997 to 7 Dec 1997 There are 6 messages totalling 687 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Welsher (Welcher) (2) 2. At Their Web Site 3. Cocktail 4. "The Donald" 5. Scofflaw ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:28:06 -0500 From: Peggy Smith dj611[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEVELAND.FREENET.EDU Subject: Welsher (Welcher) Thanks to all of you who sent me whatever you could find on the etymology of this phrase. None of the definitions were really what I was looking for, so while I was out braving our first snowstorm of the year yesterday to begin my holiday shopping, I stopped at Barnes and Noble to check out what was available in the reference section. (Closer than the nearest college library) The Oxford Dictionary of Etymology said that the phrase welsh or welch on a bet originated in England in the 1850's as racetrack slang and meant to reneg on a bet. According to Oxford the origin is unknown. The Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology said pretty much the same thing. The Morris Dictionary of Words and Phrase Origins said that the origin stems from the lines of a British nrusery rhyme, "Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief". Apparently, "Taffy" is local slang for a Welshman, and is an acceptable one, as it is a derivative of David and St. David is the patron saint of Wales. However, the Welsh people resent being called thieves and cheats, which is the British stereotype. According to those in Wales, "Welsher" was (in the 1850's) a British bookie who had overplayed longshots at the track and couldn't pay his bets off, and so fled across the border to Wales, which was the boondocks then, to hide out, thus, reneging on bets. He then became a Welsher or Welshman. THIS is what I was looking for--- the stereotype implied in the ethnic reference. I guess I won't use the expression anymore, hey? Peggy Smith ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 10:45:58 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Welsher (Welcher) Sorry -- I didn't quite see from your discussion below how you cleared up for sure that "welsh/welch" comes from the nationality. What I thought I saw was that one published source speculates about that possibility, and many others that are aware of the same speculations say "origin obscure". In etymology, the most vivid and detailed account is not always necessarily the most accurate one. Anyway, as for use or nonuse of the word, those of us who don't bet with people probably don't find ourselves tempted to use it much from year to year anyway -- passive knowledge and all that.... Greg D./NYU At 10:28 AM 12/7/97, you (Peggy Smith dj611[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cleveland.Freenet.Edu ) wrote: Thanks to all of you who sent me whatever you could find on the etymology of this phrase. None of the definitions were really what I was looking for, so while I was out braving our first snowstorm of the year yesterday to begin my holiday shopping, I stopped at Barnes and Noble to check out what was available in the reference section. (Closer than the nearest college library) The Oxford Dictionary of Etymology said that the phrase welsh or welch on a bet originated in England in the 1850's as racetrack slang and meant to reneg on a bet. According to Oxford the origin is unknown. The Barnhart Dictionary of Etymology said pretty much the same thing. The Morris Dictionary of Words and Phrase Origins said that the origin stems from the lines of a British nrusery rhyme, "Taffy was a Welshman, Taffy was a thief". Apparently, "Taffy" is local slang for a Welshman, and is an acceptable one, as it is a derivative of David and St. David is the patron saint of Wales. However, the Welsh people resent being called thieves and cheats, which is the British stereotype. According to those in Wales, "Welsher" was (in the 1850's) a British bookie who had overplayed longshots at the track and couldn't pay his bets off, and so fled across the border to Wales, which was the boondocks then, to hide out, thus, reneging on bets. He then became a Welsher or Welshman. THIS is what I was looking for--- the stereotype implied in the ethnic reference. I guess I won't use the expression anymore, hey? Peggy Smith Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 14:47:31 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: At Their Web Site Allan writes: ". . . I'm purer than thou." I'm sure glad he didn't write, "I'm purer than thee"! Ron, evidence of his being the purer of the two of you is that he recognizes ellipsis and the difference between a conjunction and a preposition: . . . purer than thou (art (pure)). DMLance EXACTLY MY POINT--THAT'S WHY I SAID I WAS "GLAD"! How could Don Lance have read it otherwise? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:13:23 -0600 From: Chris Corcoran cmcorcor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: Cocktail Perhaps this ground has already been covered, but ... I believe Dillard has suggested that cocktail is a borrowing from West African varieties of English. I know that 'cocktail' in Sierra Leone Krio is the word for scorpion, so presumably Dillard suggests the usage is analogous to stinger. Chris Corcoran At 12:18 AM 12/3/97 -0500, Barry Popik wrote: COCKTAIL Peter Tamony's papers on "cocktail" probably have everything there is to say on this. A turf poem containing "cocktail" was posted here a few days ago. This is from the Philadelphia Inquirer, 25 October 1904, "Everybody's Column," pg. 8, col. 4: WHENCE THE WORD "COCKTAIL" (J. C. P.)--"Dear Sir: Can you tell me the derivation of the name .cocktail,' that seductive but insidious drink, much used by the American 'bon vivant'? Is it a U. S. idiomatic word, or is it of an earlier period? When such an authority as Murray's New English Dictionary, which may well claim to be the largest, if not the highest, of its kind (half a dozen ponderous volumes, and not complete at that) describes "cocktail" as "chiefly U. S. (a slang name of which the real origin appears to be lost)" it must be presumptuous on the part of a poor "U. S. newspaper man" to open his mouth on the subject. In all due fear and trembling, therefore, we would fain suggest that in certain parts of Murray's own country, notably in Yorkshire generally and Sheffield particularly, beer that is full of life, fresh and foaming, is dialectically known as "cocktail beer;" the transfer, in popular, rough-and-ready parlance, of the name "cocktail" from a fizzy, foaming, life-full beer to a life-imparting, "cocking-up" rouser such as the "U. S. cocktail" is credited to be, appears to us a very short step; and we humbly beg the privilege of recording the name for your benefit, friend J. C. P. As to the origin of the English dialectical "cocktail beer," it seems likely to be, like a score of other similar forms, the outsome of the popular blending of two notions--"a tail like that of a cock," and "a tail that cocks up." This is from the New York Herald, 16 October 1921, section 7, cols. 4-5, pg. 6: Bits of Horse Lore Out of the Usual By Martha McCullouch Williams (...) WHAT is a cocktail? (...) Harking back to cocktail, it strikes me as possible that the cant name comes remotely from the Arab practice of bending the tail bone of a newly dropped foal over the forefinger till its upper vertebra is dislocated. This insures, after healing, a high carriage of the tail--something more barbarously secured by the farrier's practice of nicking. Thus the cocktail came to be held an indication of spirit, eke of blood--horses showing foot and gameness might well be entitled to it. As to how the name came to fit also a drink here is a theory, not so far fetched as some, with a few facts behind it. When Washington fought the redcoats for possession of New York town he and his staff rested at a house of call in what is now The Bronx, and were there waited on by a buxom landlady, a widow who had a fine hand at mixing things spirituous. One day she tried a new brew, sipped, then swallowed, then passed the potion as a stirrup gup to her guests, already in saddle, saying: "Drink hearty, gentlemen. It's good! I say so. 'Twill make ye each feel as sassy as a cocktail." (...) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 17:31:26 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: "The Donald" About six months ago this website contained some messages about Ivana Trump's reference to her husband as "The Donald," a reference that produced instant hilarity among journalists and others. But I don't remember an answer given to the question as to why she said this. I have a hypothesis. Ivana is a native of Czechoslovakia, and I assume (but do not know) that as an educated European she also knows German. In German the presence of a definite article before a proper name is optional. So a boy or man named Hans can be referred to simply as "Hans" or optionally as "der Hans." Similarly Erika can be "Erika" or "die Erika." And Donald can be "Donald" or "der Donald." So Ivana might have simply translated "der Donald" into English as "the Donald." Can anyone confirm whether Ivana knows German? Is there any other explanation? I doubt she intentionally said "the Donald" as a way of conveying a heroic stature to him (as "The Mick" for the great Yankee slugger Mickey Mantle). --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 18:05:54 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Scofflaw The word of the year for 1924 should have been "scofflaw." It's an Americanism that nicely illustrates both American history and how we create some of our words. AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS has "brainstorm" for 1924; that word was popularized by the Harry K. Thaw murder trial in 1907 and doesn't deserve to be there! Tom Dalzell wanted "hootch" and "bootlegger" for his SLANG OF SIN, but would be wise to include "scofflaw" with those two. "Scofflaw" has a special importance to me because I work in New York City's Parking Violations Bureau--where researching this, working eight exemplary years, solving the nickname of New York City, and having my parents die entitles me to be treated like subhuman slime! Anyway, here goes: 2 January 1924, Boston Herald, pg. 1, cols. 3-4. Contestants Pour in Words to Fit Man Who Drinks When Law Forbids The contest for the $200 offered by Delcevare King of Quincy for a single word which in his opinion best applies to a liquor drinker who knowingly and maliciously violates the prohibition law, closed last night. Mr. King said he had received thousands of words from contestants from all parts of the country and probably will be unable to make a final selection before tomorrow night. All words sent in letters that were postmarked before midnight last night were eligible to be placed in competition, and in the huge stacks of mail he received during the past few days words were submitted from every state in the Union and many foreign countries. Delcevare King, son of Mr. and Mrs. Theophilus King, is an officer of several business organizations and prominent in Anti-Saloon League and Y.M.C.A. activities. He advertised that he would pay $200 for a word, in good use or coined, "which best expresses the idea of lawless drinker, menace, scoffer, bad citizen, or whatnot, with the biting power of 'scab' or slacker." Among the "words" submitted are the following: Vatt, still, scut, sluf, curd, canker, scrub, scuttler, dreg, drag, dipsic, boozlaac, alcolog, barnacle, slime-slopper, ell-shiner, still-whacker, sluch-licker, sink, smooth, lawlessite, bottle-yegger, crimer, alcoloom, hooch-sniper, cellar- sifter, rum-rough, high-boozer, and law-loose-liquor-lover. It is Mr. King's hope that the word that he selects will be so opprobrious and soul stirring that the liquor law violators will hang their heads in shame, promise themselves not to drink any more and, perhaps, even persuade their lawless friends to do likewise. He admits that if he finds a word that will acoomplish a reformation ofthe steady drinkers, it will indeed be a powerful word. But he says it is worth many times $200 to him to arouse the public to serious thought regarding violations of the prohibition law. 10 January 1924, Harvard Lampoon, pg. 269, cols. 1-2. 5000 Seek Prize in Rum Word Contest After wading through 5000 letters and 20,000 words submitted from every one of the forty-eight states and many foreign countries in the "rum word" contest, Delcevare King, of Quincy, last night halted long enough to state that the response had been "quite overwhelming." Mr. King offered $200 for a word "which shall stab awake the conscience ofthe drinker of liquor, illegally made or illegally obtained, and stab awake the public conscience to the fact that such lawless drinking is, in the words of President Harding, a menace to the republic itself." --_Herald_ "Wanted: A Hundred Dollar Word" Dear "Billingsgate," will you attend, And your vocabulary lend? A "hundred-dollar word" I seek Just vile enough so I may speak, To brand the man who dares to breathe, A liberty he may conceive, Was born when Forbears sternly spoke, To rend for aye the tyrant's yoke. The brand of Cain shall be as naught, When I my special word have "bought," And stamped upon the man whose breath Reveals the taint that leads to death. Poor Judas did it with a kiss, And all the world his name now hiss; But mine shall be a word so vile, That Scavengers will turn and smile. The victim's soul shall burn with shame, When he shall hear that odious name; Society shall curse his tears, And taunt him with that "word" and jeers. I realize how I shall gloat When I have got that poor soul's "goat," The press shall shout with every line, Bold Delcevare! A "King" divine! 16 January 1924, NY World, pg. 1, cols. 5-6. "SCOFFLAW" AS WITHERING NAME TO CALL DRINKER WINS $200 PRIZE BOSTON, Jan. 15.--A word chosen from more than 25,000 suggestions as the one best calculated "to stab awake the conscience of the lawless drinker" was announced to-night by Delcevare King of Quincy--who offered a prize of $200 for the most suitable epithet. The word is "SCOFFLAW." The donor of the prize and his two associate judges of contributions from forty-eight States and several foreign countries divided the prize between two contestants who proposed this word--Henry Irving Shaw of Shawsheen Village and Miss Kate L. Butler of Dorchester, Mass. The Rev. E. Talmadge Root, Chairman ofthe New England Citizenship Conference for Law Enforcement, and A. J. Davis, Regional Superintendent for the Anti-Saloon League, were the other judges. King has offered another $200 for the best statement, of not more than 100 words, as to the reason why the drinker of liquor made or obtained illegally should be known as a "scofflaw." 16 January 1924, NY World, pg. 13, cols. 2-4. "Broadcasting Skofflaw" cartoon. A man at a bar uses the "pass word"--"SKOFFLAW." Two men clink beers (7%) to "SKOFFLAW." A cuckoo clock chimes, "SKOFFLAW! SKOFFLAW! SKOFFLAW!" A man says it's "Time for another." A train conductor declares, "SKOFFLAW! SKOFFLAW! SKOFFLAW AND POINTS WEST!" A man hits his thumb and curses, "SKOFFLAW! SKOFFLAW! SON OF A SKOFFLAW!" "Why Henry, such language!" A mini-dictionary illustrates Skofflaw, Skofflawing, and Skofflawed. 17 January 1924, Boston Herald, pg. 16, col. 4. It can hardly have escaped the "Scofflaw" contestants that the esteemed Roget's Thesaurus lists eleven words under "sobriety" and 160 odd under "drunkenness." 17 January 1924, NY Times, pg. 14, col. 6. Sufficiently Ugly, if That's All. "Scofflaw" is the word that has won, among many hundreds offered in competition, a two-hundred-dolalr prize as fittest for application to the patrons of bootleggers, and most likely to give them the pain they deserve. Perhaps it will serve, though it lacks the merit of coming trippingly from the tongue, and, at least when first heard, is a sound with little or no meaning. Carefully considered, the term becomes significant enough, and, as intended, it may turn the more or most sensitive sinners from their evil ways. Its weakness lies in the fact that said sinners will not be startled nor abashed at being told that they do what they never have tried to conceal, and they will ask to have it proved that they who scoff at one law necessarily and inevitably are scoffers at all law. There will be some danger in the indiscriminate use of "scofflaw," and in most cases it will be wise to acoompany it with a smile. 17 January 1924, NY Tribune, pg. 12, col. 3. A Feeble Stab. It is much easier to manufacture synthetic rubies than synthetic slang. The prize contest for a word "to stab awake the conscience of the lawless drinker" has enriched the language with "scofflaw"! This grotesque compound is not likely to leave a trail of bleeding consciences. To feel its feebleness put it alongside specimens of the real thing that just grew--roughneck, highbrow, boob, jazz, hootch, hoodlum, and so on. Words like these were not produced by competition and couldn't be. If George Ade, Finley Peter Dunne, Mark Twain and Artemus Ward were to collaborate they might be able to invent a pricklier noun than scofflaw, but the chances would be against it. Slang and poets are born, not made, and the unknown geniuses who coin catchwords do so in inspired moments, never by malice aforethought. The authors of "scofflaw" distilled their scorn of the lawless drinker in this epithet for the reward of $200. An exorbitant price, perhaps, but could $50,000 have extracted anything better? Mr. Bok provided a magnificent stimulus to the highest thinking on the most mementous of world problems, and the net result thus far in the opinion of many is as disappointing as"scofflaw." The artificial word, the artificial peace plan, is bound to fall short ofthe flattering hope. Mr. Bok, to be sure, entertained no false expectations of a miracle. He was out to set people to thinking and talking of peace, and he succeeded--something very different from trying to buy a stroke of original genius. Few things not purely mechanical, it seems, can be made to order. How many attempts to procure a satisfactory national song have been futile? Where is "the great American novel"? These will come spontaneously when they do arrive. The lawless drinkers, some of them, would have humor enough to toast the coiners of "scofflaw" if the word hit. Somebody, very likely a bootlegger, will hit on the right word yet, and it will get into the common speech without costing anybody a cent. col. 4. One trouble with "scofflaw" is it sounds too much like something served under the head of "German home cooking." 17 January 1924, NY American, pg. 26, col. 2. "Scofflaw" SCOFFLAW is a newly invented word that won a two-hundred dollar prize offered by Delcevare King, of Quincy, Mass., for an epithet that would sting the lawless drinker with society's contempt. Will it work? A mild-mannered darky, fond of the cup that cheers, was repeatedly haled before a judge who at last asked him sternly: "Haven't I told you, Sam, after you have had one drink to ask for sarsaparilla?" Sam replied: "Yeh, boss, but after I'se had one drink ah cain't say 'sassyparilly.'" A word to the wise is sufficient, But even this dreadful word "scofflaw" is hardly one to deter the crazy purchasers of poison chances in the bootleg lottery. 17 January 1924, NY World, "The Conning Tower" by Franklin P. Adams, pg. 13, col. 1. It strikes us that the man who got $200 for inventing Scofflaw as a word to make the lawless drinker wince and writhe is a good deal of a profiteer. Probably a scofflaw's little boy is a scornstatute. 18 January 1924, NY World pg. 10, col. 6. THE PEOPLE'S FORUM. "SCOF-FLAW." To the Editor of the World: The gentleman who has striven, at some financial sacrifice, to fasten an opprobrious epithet on a considerable and largely respectable body of his fellow-citizens is hardly to be congratulated on the choice of "scofflaw," which has been announced as the "best" epithet submitted in the competition. This attempt at a new word contains a flaw--in two senses. The first is obvious; the second is that "scofflaw" is capable of being defined in more than one way. No doubt many citizens will adopt a definition something likethe following: "Scofflaw--One who scoffs at the idea of a flaw in the glorious Constitution of the United States as it existed in the year 1919." By the proper use of a hyphen this meaning may be made a little clearer. SCOF-FLAW OF ROSELLE. Roselle, N. J., Jan. 16. "The Conning Tower" by Franklin P. Adams, pg. 11, col. 1. HYMN. I want to be a scofflaw And with the scofflaws stand; A brand upon my forehead A handcuff on my hand. I want to be a scofflaw, For since I went to school, I hate to mind an order, I _hate_ to keep a rule. C. W. pg. 15, cols. 2-4. "Hocus-Pocus" cartoon. "SCOFFLAW!" a dry accuses a wet, who, on his knees, pleads, "NO, NO, ANYTHING BUT THAT." A dry gets on a lamppost outside a drug store and shouts "SCOFFLAW!" The dry navy cranks up "SCOFFLAW" on the Victrola and destroys other ships. The word "SCOFFLAW" is also sucessfully usued by "border defenses" with "long range phongraphs." 18 January 1924, Boston Herald, pg. 8, cols. 3-5. "IF SCOFFLAWS, WHY NOT THESE?" cartoon by Collier. Illustrated are the terms Scofficer, Scoffelroad, Scoffincometax, Scofflattire, Scoffornet Player, Scoffalate Train, Scofforator (To a sleeping audience, he orates "I shall detain you but an hour longer."), Scoffurance. A child in the last panel says, "A guy who thinks he kin make folkses drink soft drinks by callin 'em hard names is a optimist. Now they got uh name fre drinkers they shud orter offer anuther prize t' git people t' use it!" 19 January 1924, NY Herald, pg. 1, col. 5. Woman Offers $100 Prize for 'Scofflaw' Antonym NEW HAVEN, Jan. 18.--A prize of $100 for the best antonym for "scofflaw" was offered today by Mrs. Rose R. Scott of Saugatuck. "I will pay $100," she said, "for the best coined word that will in effect mean one who scoffs at the God given privileges of liberty and the pursuit of happiness." 19 January 1924, NY Sun and Globe, "The Sun DIal," pg. 8, col. 4. King John's English. Don't you think it might be a good plan to compile a Dictionary of Prohibition to supplement "Scofflaw?" If you do, here is my first suggestion: GINGRATE--One who scoffs at your synthetic gin when it is not contained in original Gordon Gin bottles with the familiar tissue covering. ITALGETYER--One who tells you "That stuff will get you one of these days" as you down three fingers of rare old 1924 Scotch. F. J. MILTON. And, to continue: HIPPLER--One with a significant bulge under his coattails. JUNIPER--In modern mythology, the god of gin. MOURNMORN--One who is always ready to have "just one more" and then not go home. 19 January 1924, Boston Herald, pg. 1, cols. 5-7. "SCOFFLAWS MUST REVISE SONGS" cartoon by Collier. A drunk goes "Scoff! Scoff!" "in place of the customary 'hic.'" A male chorus sings, "Here's to good old Yale, Scoff her down...." A banjo player sings, "Down where the Scoffburger flows..." A woman at a piano sings, "There's a tavern in the town, in the town; And there my scofflaw sits him down, sits him down; And scoffs his scoff with laughter free; An never never thinks of muh!" A gramophone states, "The next song by Madam Skreetch will be 'Scoff to me only with thine eyes.'" 20 January 1924, NY Tribune, part 2, pg. 4, col. 4. "Scofflaw," the prize word chosen to denominate prohibition drinkers, sounds a little too much like a horse laugh to be exactly withering. 21 January 1924, NY World, "The Conning Tower" by Franklin P. Adams, pg. 9, col. 1. An announcement comes from Preferred Pictures Corp. to the effect that that organization is about to begin work on a production to be called "The Adorable Scofflaw." The picture, the announcement concludes, will be released in the spring. We don't believe it. We don't believe, that is, that it will be released under that title. For unless we are wrong--and nothing in the past leads us to suspect we ever could be--by St. Valentine's Day only a few antiquarians will recall the word. "I desire to offer a prize," desires Julian Street, "for the best name to be applied to the kind of Prohibition bigot who, by fighting against light winds and beer along with hard liquor, created the scofflaw. The prize will be two hundred lily cups, slightly used." Mr. Street's own suggestions are Dryfool, Spiggot-Bigot, and Cupcuss. "I am a scofflaw's wife," telephones Thyra. "My name is Ignordinance." And T. A. thinks scofflaw's little boy should be nicknamed Buster Amendment. Let's all sing, "For he's a jolly good scofflaw." 21 January 1924, Boston Herald, pg. 13, cols. 2-4. "CAN 'SCOFFLAW' BE PUT ON THE MARKET?" cartoon by Collier. Scofflaw is used as the name for a carbureter, in "scofflaw chocolates," as a game ("Let's play scofflaw!"), as a term of affection ("Who's 'ittle scofflaw is 'oo."), but "desperate slogans may require desperate measures" ("Say Scofflaw or I'll slap you!"). Delcevare King declares "You are not supposed to laugh! This was not gotten up to be a comic!" Franklin P. Collier's article accompanies his cartoon. 22 January 1924, NY World, pg. 12, col. 2. "SCOFFLAW" HUNT PUTS SALOON PORTER IN JAIL Boston, Jan. 21.--The hunt for words as good as "scofflaw" led John Allen to steal a dictionary, he told Judge Sullivan in Municipal Court to-day prior to receiving sentence on thirty days in the House of Correction (Must have been a Random House dictionary--ed.). Allen said he had become interested in the contest for the best word to describe a Prohibition violator. "What's your business?" asked the Clerk of the Court. "I'm a porter in a near-beer saloon," was the reply. 22 January 1924, Boston Herald, pg. 16. col. 2. The flaw in scofflaw, as compared with scab and skunk, is the lack of pictorial appeal. col. 3. LIKES COLLIER To the Editor of The Herald: As a constant, inveterate and deeply appreciative lover of the "Collier" cartoons, permit me to say--after weeping joyfully over the "scofflaw" of this morning--if I had any pull with the "Hall of Fame" the niche marked "Collier" would take up all the centre of the place, as a public benefactor. Though the man who makes people weep tears of joy these days is already among the immortals. ANNE CHIPPENDALE. 232 Summer Street, Boston, Jan. 19. OPPOSES DELCEVARE KING To the Editor of The Herald: When Will Shakespeare wrote that "a rose by any other name would smell as sweet" he knew something. 'Tis not the word, but what the word implies, imparts the sting and teaches to despise. This latest example of the fanatical folly of the self-appointed adjusters of the universe--usurpers of the Creator's power--will fail to convince the sober-minded people of this country that the subverters of the constitution are less blameworthy than the so-called "Scofflaws." J. W. DAY 89 Wilson street, Norwood, Jan. 20. 23 January 1924, NY World, "The Conning Tower" by Franklin P. Adams, pg. 13, col. 1. A small rum-boat, obviously, is a skifflaw. 24 January 1924, NY Sun and Globe, "The Globe Trotter," pg. 22, col. 5. Scofflawlessness. My neighbor is a scofflaw bold, He has a scofflaw wife; Two scofflaws, they, that beat as one And lead a scofflaw life. Their neighbors all are scofflaws; 'tis A scofflaw neighborhood; At scofflaw parties all consume As scofflaw drinkers should. A scofflaw cop is on the beat; He's on a scofflaw force, And when he sees a scofflaw fete He scoffs his share, of course. It wouldn't do to make arrests Of scofflaws small or great, For in the court the scofflaw'd find A scofflaw magistrate. So wickedly the scofflaws scoff In scofflaw homes, cafes-- In scofflaw drug stores, scofflaw inns And scofflaw cabarets. 26 January 1924, Boston Herald, pg. 10, col. 4. There is more phonetic punch in the long-dropped term "dram-drinker" than in a dozen "scofflaws." 30 January 1924, NY Tribune, "The Lantern," pg. 10, col. 5. "Scoffings" must not be confused with "scofflings." The scoffings are the eats, whereas scofflings are the drinks of the scofflaw. This note is just to keep the philologists straight. 31 January 1924, Harvard Lampoon, pg. 297. THREE guffaws, we're all "Scofflaws." And proudly do we sing. This land is free for you and me, So take away the King. Three Guffaws and loud applause. Again this song we sing. We cringe with shame at such a name? Nay, nay, away, oh, King! 2 February 1924, Literary Digest, pg. 16, col. 1. WELL, the prize offered for the new word that would best stab the conscience of the illegal drinker has been awarded to "scofflaw," and it stabs harder than we had dared to hope, as it sounds like something warmed over for luncheon.--_Grand Rapids Press_. "Scofflaw" suggests that a more effective term to apply to bootleggers and their patrons would be sixty days.--_Springfield Republican_. pg. 28, col. 2, "The Lexicographers Easy Chair" "R. S.," New Haven, Conn.--The sciolist who has informed suffering humanity that _scoff-law_ is established in the language is evidently a believer in _sciology_ which, but for its pronunciation, one is almost tempted in these days of Blue Sky Laws to spell _skyology_. The word is of very recent coinage, and time and usage alone will determine whether it be entitled to admission in the dictionaries. Undoubtedly if it receive general support it will gain admission, but just as one swallow does not make a summer the mere introduction of a word does not establish it in the language. No limit can be put upon the number of words that may be coined at one time or another, for have we not 26 letters in our alphabet which an enterprising mathematician has calculated can be arranged in 620,448,401,733,239,439,369,000 ways? The genius if language watches over its welfare, accepts that which is good and rejects all for which it has no use. 2 February 1924, Judge, pg. 15, col. 2. "Scofflaw" IN SELECTING the word, "scofflaw," as the one best calculated "to stab awake the conscience of the lawless drinker," the judges in the recent prize contest were evidently carried away by the literal meaning of their epithet and paid little attention to its sound. "Scofflaw," far from stabbing anything awake, falls upon the ear with a soothing liquidity of sound that seems a cross between a guffaw and a gurgle. Even its meaning, to the hard- boiled cohorts of gin who have been used to hearing "outlaw!" and worse hurled at their heads, suggests not chastisement but chiding. They had been looking at the very least for a box on the ears and, behold, a tap on the wrist. But regardless of the value of the epithet, its use by prohibitionists reminds us of the pot bawling out the kettle. The "scofflaw," as a rule, respects all law but the one. The 100 per cent prohitionist, on the other hand, really respects only the one. 21 February 1924, Harvard Lampoon, pg. 12, cols. 1-2. LAMPY WINS!! "Quafflaws" Unanimous Choice in Great _Advocate_ Contest _Cambridge, Valentine's Day, Leap-year:_ It might as well be announced, while we have the chance, that the generous, though scoffable, award, of _Dame Advocate_, has fallen into the clever but modest hands of _Lampy_. Naturally, the contest has not yet been officially terminated, but we say with unassuming pride, that it is high time it was. _Not Aroused by Sums_ Of course, the vast sums sacrificed by _Dame Advocate_ are not the primary object of _Lampy's_ chaste display of intellect. It is the moral force--the idea behind the $10 which has led him on to the trough of achievement. And deeply did he drink! _"Quafflaws" Is Chosen_ "Quafflaw," that stinging sibilant epithet, so characteristic of a Dry, is the unanimous choice of the alleged judges. It is alleged that countless words were sent in. _Dame Advocate_, when interviewed by a LAMPOON reporter, verified this statement that the alleged words were never counted. "Only three were kept," she said, in her quaint way. "We kept your because it was written so neatly, and drew two other by lots. These other words were 'Dry' and 'Dry.' We eliminated the former as unworthy of teh competition, and after a short debate came to our unanimous decision that 'Quafflaws' was indeed the word that would best instill shame" (and here her parched carmine lips quivered), "even to the very mugs of royalty." _"Quafflaws" Fulfills Conditions_ "Quafflaw" is hosrt. It is popular (see _quaff_ in the dictionary). It brands relentlessly those who continually drink their fill of laws. It has, therefore, a burning penetration. Briefly, _Lampy's_ coy and unobstrusive simplicity has won for him both riches and renown. Now where in the world did that corkscrew go to? ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Dec 1997 to 7 Dec 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 7 Dec 1997 to 8 Dec 1997 There are 17 messages totalling 873 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Craps (three long articles) 2. Posts from non-professionals (7) 3. welsh/welch and taffy (2) 4. "The Donald" 5. "Ich bin ein Berliner" 6. How cold was it? 7. HOW COLD IS IT? (Wie kalt ist es?) 8. Can't we all just get along? (2) 9. Keyboarding ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 04:41:21 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Craps (three long articles) At the risk of more typographical mistakes, here are three long articles on "craps." This is from the Cincinnati Enquirer, 12 June 1886, pg. 10, col. 2: PLAYING "CRAPS." Scenes Around a Table Where a Heavy Brand of This Popular Game is in Progress. "Hi-yah! Good dawg! Run ererost'n scald 'im!? Oonce!!!" exclaimed a dusky dice-shaker in a Clark-street gambling hell. Around the table, forty feet long by five wide, were gathered a motley crowd of one hundred colored gamblers, whose eager countenances betrayed the intense interest with which they watched the roll of the dice. The game of "craps," as played in the alleys and on street corners by gamins and news-arabs is in itself an insignificant game, but when it assumes proportions that allow one hundred players at a time, it becomes decidedly interesting. The dive referred to is one of three in a block on Clark street about a minute's walk from the Post-office building. It is situated on the ground floor in a barroom, with nothing but a portable screen to present the passer- by from noticing the game that is in full blast day and night behind it. It is here that the colored waiters, barbers and call-boys employed in the large hotels nightly congregate and take chances of losing or quadrupling their perquisites. The railroad porter, too, in his traveling cap and with his satin-lined overcoat hanging on his arm, is seen trying his luck. Stewards, cooks, steamboat hands, butlers and waiters from private residences make it their rendezvous when work is over for the day. Thousands of dollars change hands in the course of the year in this shady retreat. "Craps" is characteristically a darky's game. It is simple, and therefore easy for him to understand. But few white men ever play it. At the middle of the table stands the "rake off," whose business it is to decide all bets or accept all bets offered him. He is willing to bet both ways with any and every one on the same throw of the dice. For each bet made he receives a nickel, which he drops through a small slot into the commission-box. This box is about the size of a cigar-box, and is emptied when it is full, which is several times a day. Before the "rake off" is a diagram: (Sorry! I can't draw here!--ed.) Upon this is placed the original bet offered by the shaker, and the darkies crowding around the board bet either with him, or the "rake off," or among themselves, as they please. Each winner of a bet pays five cents to the "rake off," who often makes between $4 and $5 commission in a single throw of the dice. As the game itself is a small matter, and only the peculiar phrases and incantations used by the superstitious darkies to charm the dice are the real attraction to a visitor, but brief explanation is needed regarding the game. Two dice are shaken in the hand and rolled upon the board. The shaker cries "Seben!" Should the dice turn up a combination, six and one, five and two, or four and three, he receives four times the amount of his bet. Should they turn up two and one it is "craps," and he loses. Should the total be six he must roll again until he makes six, when he will win; provided he does not roll seven or eleven while trying to shake out the second six. The same law governs combinations totaling four, five, eight, nine, and ten. The exclamations noted above were made by a burnt-coffee-colored darky and his throw was five. "Shake ergin, niggah," said a coal-black individual standing at the opposite side of the board, "Ar'm betting on yo', niggah. Jess rub dis luckybone on dem yere cogs," said another. "Two bits 'e doan' shoot!" "Ar dun got yo'. Shoot on, skinny, like yo' wuz white trash." (I assume no responsibility for this. Dalzell wanted "craps" stuff--ed.) "Zip-zong-zekel-hezikiah!" ejaculated the shaker as he blew in his fist and rolled the dice over the board. Four was the throw. "Shake dies, niggah, shake dies!" spoke a man about ten shades blacker than the man he addressed as "niggah." "Wetcher throw, coon?" "Little Jo. Jo Day! 'E dun got no use for Little Jo. Shoot Favor dies. Seben! Go 'way, niggah; gimme dem dies. Ar dun lose money on yo'. You'se no-good. Go outside and roll bricks. Dollar Ar shoots," said the new shaker, ringing down a dollar on the board. "De man not dun puts his money 'gin dat yere loses. Yo 'eah me!" and he broke into a chant, blowing the words into his fist for luck. Ole man in de mountain, Er bowin' up 'n down; Sally in de sugar-tree Er shakin' sugar down-- The rest was smothered in a whisper to the dice. "Nine," called the "rake-off." "Uts er nine--er long nine. Ef Ar dun git er nine Ar'll eat--Ar din't eat nuffin terday. Ef Ar dun git er nine Ar eat beefsteak 'n inyuns." Befo' dis time annudder day, O Lawd, how long! Down in some lonesome graveyard At may be gone-- "Cudgy! Cudgy! Cudgy! Heeyarh! Zoop!!! Ar dun tole yo'. My money, nigga! Two dollars Ar shoots," and he chanted again: Moola-roola-feterich, (RHHDAS has "moola" from 1939 and says "origin unknown"--ed.) Roll 'em up er seben! Moola roola-nigga-witch, Doan' yo make erleben!" "Craps!" yelled a chorus when the dice turned up. "Go way fum yere," said the shaker to a lemon-colored fellow who stood grinning at his elbow, "yo's a Jonah, yo' is. ("Jonah" would become popular in baseball in 1887--ed.) Yo' dun gib me bad luck; yo's been er playing wiff er coffin. Go way fum yere." The next shaker was a sleeping-car porter. He rang down a $20 gold- piece. "Shoot 'em fo' twenty!" he said, as he brushed the inevitable silk traveling-cap over the back of his shiny pate, which was egg-shaped, little end up. "Seben, Ar want, 'n seben Ar muss hab. Oonga-thoonga-doonga-zamah!" "Six," called the "rake-off." "Six, eh? Ooph! Gimme dem dies. Cl'ar de road, dar, yo' niggas. Six! six! ach! ooph! cou'nt make er six wiff a lead pencil. Six! six! Dat's it, honey. My money, chile. Play 'em fo' forty. Now fo' seben. Seben! seben! Got no function fo' ter make seben! Seben! seben! Roll, Jordan, roll. Cou'nt make er seben wiff er stamp. Hee-yah! Zoom! (Last two words nearly illegible--ed.) "Eden got it. Fo' fo' one! E's dun got crap-luck! Be'n er makin' lub to white gal. Shoo! Dun got ter sit up der drinks. Shout, yo' nigga, shout!" were the cries around the board, and every man but the rake-off, who had lost $160 on the throw, opened wide an ivory-trimmed whisky tomb in anticipation. This particular way of gambling was not invented by the colored man. He borrowed it from his masters. Eighty years ago it was a favorite, especially in England, where it was known as hazard. It was played by Fox, sung by Byron, and "written up" by Hoyle. Since then it has fallen from its high estate, and as some mansion once the abode of wealth and rank sinks to a cheap tenement house, so the game of noblemen has become the sport of newsboys and porters, It has altered somewhat in the processes of time, and has gained much in simplicity, but still retains many of the features of hazard. The word "craps" is nothing but "crabs," which was the name given to the unlucky throw of aces or trois ace. As for the incantations or mystic words, they are much the same as boys used to use in playing marbles and other like games. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------ This is from the New York Press, 14 April 1895, part VI, pg. 2, cols. 2-3: THEY MAKE OUR GAMBLERS Street Games in Which Chance Plays a Part. MOTHERS HAVE MADE COMPLAINTS "Craps," Played with Dice, Is Most Popular, and "Pictures," Played with Photographs Found in Cigarette Packages, Comes Next--Boys Always Know How Fast a "Copper" Can Run--An Idiom (?-ed.) Revived Nearly every one of the street games played by boys are flavors of gambling. It has been said that every human being has the gambling instinct in his bosom, which can be developed at a moment's notice. Watch that crowd of youngsters swarming upon the flagstones by the side of one of the morning newspaper offices in Park row! If you are not a policeman you can get near enough to look over their shoulders and see what it is that engrosses them. They are throwing dice and exchanging pennies, and are all so deeply interested that the scene might be Monte Carlo instead of a New York thoroughfare. The game is "craps," and although it is played by many thousands of boys throughout the United States now, it is a foreign importation. It was brought from Italy only a dozen years ago. (Oops! See above!--ed.) Two dice are used and certain combinations of numbers must be thrown to win, while other combinations lose. "Seven, come 'leven." yells a boy with a tuft of red hair on his forehead. A smaller boy, with the sharp, dark Semitic face to be seen so often in this city, responds, "It's a lie." Then both bend over to watch the next throw, without caring anything about the imputation of dishonor conveyed in the last remark. "CRAPS" DIALECT. "T'row de dice square," "Roll 'em out," "Make 'em wabble," "Day's loaded fer aces," "Shake de bones," are a few of the expressions that ring out from the mass of squirming arms and legs and bobbing, tousled heads, while the game grows more exciting every minute. The boys are "shooting craps" with a vengeance. Some of them have lost or won as much as eight or ten pennies. A "copper" said that he could not tell much about the minutiae of "shooting craps," because the boys would never let him get near enough to investigate. "And you can bet, the boys know which policemen can run the fastest," he added. "Shooting pictures" is also a popular gambling game with the street boys of New York. (Thank goodness they invented baseball cards--ed.) The pictures are the photographs of actresses that come with packages of cigarettes. They are about twice as large as a Columbian postage stamp and are fairly executed representations of stage beauties. The boys do not care anything about the pictures as pictures, but as implements of gambling they have a peculiar value. They are usually collected from the gutters, where they were tossed by the smoker. Each player throws a picture toward the wall, and the one that gets nearest to it wins the others. Another picture game is "heads and tails." One boy throws a picture up in the air and the other boy guesses as to which side will come down uppermost. Sometimes the boys play "craps" for pictures when they have no pennies, the game coming to an end when some one is "busted." Pictures are played (?-ed.) when there are no pennies, and when pictures are gone they play for anything else they may have in their pockets. TEE-TO-TUM STILL POPULAR. The old fashioned amusement of tee-to-tum is as popular now as it was a hundred years ago. Boys make their tee-to-tum of wood, with figures on the sides, and they spin it on the sidewalk and get as much fun out of it as do the adult gamblers in handsomely appointed "rooms." A game that was in vogue twenty-five years ago, and that has been revived in New York lately, is called "Ring and relief, oh!" A stick is leaned slanting against a wall, and one boy is required to keep it in that position while the others try to knock it down. This may be seen in Harlem and other resident districts at this time of the year, when outdoor games are just becoming possible. It is innocent and athletic. Leapfrog, in which the boy who is "down" gets a kick from every boy that passes over him, is engaging the juvenile attention now, and "button," hand ball, base ball, tops, and marbles have all made their appearance within the last week or so, in recognition of the approach of spring. The American game of poker is played on the street corners by the boys who cannot find anywhere else to do it. The technical expressions are all familiar to the average American boy, who takes to poker as naturally, apparently, as he does to base ball. BAD INFLUENCE OF CRAPS. "The playing of craps is becoming dangerous to young people," said a school principal to a Press reporter. "Almost every day mothers come to me and complain that their boys 'shoot craps,' and ask me to do something to prevent it. What can I do? The little rascals (The little rascals?--ed.) take care not to play around the school, and if they were to see me half a mile away on the street their dice would be out of sight immediately. Boys will gamble, if there is any opportunity at all, and how can you deprive them of all opportunity? Why, men in State prisons manage to gamble. The only thing to be done is to try to make them see the evil and folly of it, and in a few cases, by appealing to a boy's better nature, you can keep him from this kind of wrongdoing, but not easily. One boy will lead another into mischief, and there you are. Still, I do not think a boy is necessarily bad because he 'shoots craps,' or even plays poker. Some of the greatest men in this country play poker, and we are rather proud of them--as a nation--too." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- The first article had a "Little Joe" antedate. This last article also contains "Phoebe," "Jimmy Hicks," "Big Dick," and more. It's from the New York Sun, 7 November 1897, part four, pg. 2, col. 6: THE SCIENCE OF CRAPS. Likewise the Lingo of That Characteristically Southern Game. _From the Atlanta Constitution._ "Come seven-eleven!" "Fade you!" "Cut his throat, seven!" "Jimmy Hicks, take my gal to Memphis!" "Big Dick is mine!" "Come, Little Joe!" These expressions are a part of the vocabulary which accompanies any well-arranged sitting of the Southern darky's great game of craps. Throughout the entire South the game is now probably played, although it has been in existence only about twenty years. (Huh?--ed.) But just how the name originated is not known. It is used in only one part of the game, on the very first throw, when the thrower is said to "crap out." The rules under which the remarkable game is played are interesting. From one of the king crap players in Atlanta I have been initiated into the mysteries of the game, and I have given all the rules here as faithfully as if I was transcribing the new rules in whist. Any number of persons can shoot craps. I say shoot advisedly, for no crap player ever uses the word play. The game is played with two dice. The first player places them in the hollow of his right hand (unless he is left- handed), and shaking them about a bit, throws them upon the floor or the ground, generally the ground. Before he throws he states how much he is throwing for, usually a nickel. Some one among the other players cries out: "I fade you!" That means the thrower's money is covered. There then can be as many side bets as the other players wish to make. If on the firstthrow the player makes seven or eleven he wins. If he throws two, three or twelve on the first throw he loses, or craps out. If he throws four, five, six, eight, nine or ten, that is called his point, and he throws again until he either makes his point once more or makes seven. If he makes his point before he makes seven, he wins; but if seven comes first, he loses. The thrower can hold the dice as long as he continues to win, but when he loses he surrenders them to the next player. Any person in the game has the right to pick up the dice quickly when a player makes the first throw. He does this to see that no loaded dice have been smuggled into the game. The usual way of doing this is for a player to reach out as the dice fall and say: "My dice." He examines them, blows on them, and, tossing them back to the thrower, says: "Your dice; shoot!" If this is attempted at any other stage of the game, except on the first throw, a legitimate show-down of white-handled razors is in order. The person who offers to cover the thrower's money is called the "fader." Most of the betting in the game is done by those who are standing around. Nearly all the points on the dice are named. Four is called "Little Joe," five is called "Phoebe" or "fever," six is known as "Jimmy Hicks," nine is "Liz," and ten is "Big Dick," sometimes also called "Big Tom." When a game has been arranged those who havethe cash sit or stand around, and the first thrower tosses up his coin and gets ready to shoot. He blows upon the dice, make an exclamation that sounds like a deep, aspirated "Ah!" throws the dice upon the ground, and, as they fall, snaps his fingers (Not "pops his fingers"?--ed.) sharply. This may seem like some special trimmings, but the manoeuvres are as much a part of the game as putting up the money. When he has been faded the outside betting begins, the thrower acting slowly to give time for all the gamblers to get their money up. The man who bets with the thrower is said to "like him." As the game progresses you can hear the thrower as he first tosses the dice exclaim, "Come seven-eleven!" If he fails either to win or crap out he will then cry, as he tries to make his point: "Come to see me, Little Joe or Big Dick or Liz," or whatever his point may be. The man who has faded him or who is betting against him on the outside will say: "Cut him off, seven!" "Cut his throat, seven!" "Come under him, seven!" When Liz--that is nine ("Liz" is not in the RHHDAS--ed.)--is first thrown, the player always exclaims: "Liz is the gal for me." The words which accompany Jimmy Hicks, a throw of six, are: "Big Six, take my gal to Memphis." A smooth place on the ground is always preferable to the floor of a room. A table is entirely out of the question. Many times a gang of negro gamblers will play on the sidewalk under the glare of an electric light, and boys are stationed in the middle of each block to keep a watch for the approach of a policeman and to give a signal if one is seen coming. The game is played by the old and the young, in the country and in the cities, by railroad hands and deck hands on the river steamboats. Negroes in the large cities know scarcely any other sort of gambling. The steamboat hands play night and day and they have been known to return after a long trip with every cent of their earnings gone into the pockets of the lucky players. Here in Atlanta there are all sorts of crap shooters, including the big gamblers and the small boys, who will shoot for anything of value, often the clothes on their backs. Hardly a week passes without some place, usually an alley, being raided and a lot of the "crap shooters" arrested. But the gambling cannot be broken up. Craps has come among the Southern darkies of a sporty nature to stay, and as long as they can get hold of a pair of dice, and have the coin, they will woo the goddess of fortune, with prayers for the lucky seven-eleven. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 06:50:43 -0800 From: "Thomas L. Clark" tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Re: Posts from non-professionals On Sun, 16 Nov 1997, Bethany K. Dumas wrote: I have just been informed that many recent posts are from students, not professionals. In future, I will try to refrain from posting evaluative comments about remarks from posters whom I do not know personally or professionally. Bethany Bethany hits the nail on the head, in a manner of speaking. I have been meaning for some time to send this memo to colleagues who know me. I have set my ADS-L to nomail on a regular basis when I am busy. I simply don't have the time to go through dozens of messages from people who have dropped in to enjoy funny stuff about dialect speakers. Most of their comments and questions would be taken care of if they took a course from any of the professionals on the list. When I do set to ADS-L mail, I tend to look only at those message from professionals, members of ADS and people who have published in the field. But getting 80 to 100 messages in a couple of days, eighty percent of which needn't have been written if people were knowledgeable even a little bit, simply is too time consuming when I have many things I need to catch up on. Perhaps the answer would be to go to a moderated group for the professionals, then have an open forum for general discussion on a separate track. I have seen this done with humor groups: one is moderated and sends out few, but significant items. The other is open to whoever feels the urge to contribute. Just a thought. Now that the semester is winding down, I will set ADS-L to mail once more, to see if there is any sentiment for such a proposal. Yes, I expect to receive flames from some, but I have a delete button. Cheers, Thomas L. Clark tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:52:26 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: Posts from non-professionals At 06:50 AM 12/8/97 -0800, you ("Thomas L. Clark" tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU ) wrote: Most of their comments and questions would be taken care of if they took a course from any of the professionals on the list. Or read books by them or by others, or looked in some decent dictionaries or other published sources before posting a query or comment. There's a lot of reinventing of the wheel, and sometimes the wheel comes out crooked anyway. But getting 80 to 100 messages in a couple of days Are you sure this is accurate and representative? -- part of professional training is accuracy. Perhaps the answer would be to go to a moderated group for the professionals, then have an open forum for general discussion on a separate track. I have seen this done with humor groups: one is moderated and sends out few, but significant items. The other is open to whoever feels the urge to contribute. The only way I have seen an internet list improve without the heaviest kinds of moderation is for those who know what they are about to post sophisticated material. This leads those who otherwise might think any old thing is OK to hold back lest their input look not so great by comparison. I've seen it happen on lists where I have genuine expertise, unlike here -- where I would like to learn something, if possible, but instead find the most basic queries being posted. Yes, I expect to receive flames from some.... Silent chagrin would perhaps be more appropriate -- though I suspect the fault lies as much in what those who know their stuff don't bother to post as it does in what those who don't know as much do bother posting. Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 11:13:59 +0000 From: Buchmann buchmann[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BELLSOUTH.NET Subject: Re: Posts from non-professionals A short while ago L-BRAIN split into a moderated [now L-BRAIN] list and an unmoderated list [LANG-BRAIN]. This has worked quite well. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:27:39 +0000 From: Jim Rader jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM Subject: Re: welsh/welch and taffy When I was in regular contact with native Welsh speakers a number of years ago I had the definite impression welsh / welch was considered an ethnic slur. No matter its true origin, it was perceived as referring to the Welsh. Taffy is also derogatory when used by non-Welshmen, but I think it may be used in self-reference more or less jocularly, especially in the Anglicized parts of Wales. Pace W3, the notion that Taffy is somehow modified from Welsh Dafydd looks quite implausible. There are two equivalents of "David" in Welsh: Dewi /'de wi/ (a British Celtic borrowing from ecclesiastical Latin, with vowel affection and loss of the final voiced fricative) and Dafydd /'da v[barred i][edh]) in North Wales, /'da vi[edh]/ in South Wales (a medieval Welsh borrowing ). St. David is rendered in Welsh by the fixed collocation Dewi Sant . I doubt that Welshmen would associate either Dewi or Dafydd with Taffy ; if anyone has evidence to the contrary, it would be of interest. A more plausible source of Taffy might be the river Taff, which flows through Cardiff--at least it fits phonetically. The slangism Taffy has a variant Taff , though it's attested much more recently. The Morris's Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins --I'm amazed it's still in print--is of value only as a collection of etymology folklore. Jim Rader ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 10:11:09 -0800 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: "The Donald" Czech has no definite article. Hence, e.g., "the book", "a book" and "book" are all simply (at least in the nominative) "kniha". It is common for Czechs speaking English to display uncertainty about when to use which article, or none. Sometimes the result is to omit the article where English requires it, and sometimes it is to use an article where English uses none. (It's a phenomenon similar to the hypercorrect use of progressive forms in English by many continental Europeans.) E.g.: when I first visited my future in-laws in Prague, bringing as a gift my father's book "Deadline", my future father-in-law (who spoke English) carefully referred to it as "The Deadline". I don't think there's a need to resort to German to explain Ivana Trump's usage, whether she happens to know German or not. Peter McGraw On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Gerald Cohen wrote: About six months ago this website contained some messages about Ivana Trump's reference to her husband as "The Donald," a reference that produced instant hilarity among journalists and others. But I don't remember an answer given to the question as to why she said this. I have a hypothesis. Ivana is a native of Czechoslovakia, and I assume (but do not know) that as an educated European she also knows German. In German the presence of a definite article before a proper name is optional. So a boy or man named Hans can be referred to simply as "Hans" or optionally as "der Hans." Similarly Erika can be "Erika" or "die Erika." And Donald can be "Donald" or "der Donald." So Ivana might have simply translated "der Donald" into English as "the Donald." Can anyone confirm whether Ivana knows German? Is there any other explanation? I doubt she intentionally said "the Donald" as a way of conveying a heroic stature to him (as "The Mick" for the great Yankee slugger Mickey Mantle). --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 09:03:32 -0800 From: Peter McGraw pmcgraw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: "Ich bin ein Berliner" On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Larry Horn wrote: David Bergdahl writes: There is no question that Kennedy's utterance was interpretable in the sense he meant it, but I believe the usual utterance would be "Ich komme aus Berlin"--the "Ich bin. . ." sounds like a calque. Interesting. For an English speaker, "I am a New Yorker" is quite different from "I am from New York". Is the distinction neutralized in German? LH Both "Ich bin Berliner" and "Ich bin [or komme] aus Berlin" are perfectly acceptable German, with meanings entirely parallel to, e.g., "I'm an American" and "I'm from the U.S." "Ich bin ein Berliner" is (as many have pointed out) perfectly comprehensible in German, although a native speaker would not use the "ein" in this context. With an adjective, however (e.g., "Er ist ein alter Berliner" (He is an old Berliner), the article reappears. Peter McGraw ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 14:42:36 PST From: barbara harris GRADMA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVVM.UVIC.CA Subject: Re: How cold was it? Speaking of cold, don't any of you down there know about certain anatomical attributes of brass monkeys that may freeze in sub-zero temperatures? (Of course it never gets that cold here in balmy Victoria!) Barbara Harris. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 18:18:48 -0600 From: Samuel Jones smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: HOW COLD IS IT? (Wie kalt ist es?) In Germany, the question "Wie kalt ist es draussen?" (= "How cold is it outside?"), often produces a reply using the thumb and index finger of the same hand as a mesure of the cold, indicating by the distance or "length" beteen the two the effect of the cold on a certain portion of the male anatomy. One simple gesture is worth a dozen euphemisms. smjones Speaking of cold, don't any of you down there know about certain anatomical attributes of brass monkeys that may freeze in sub-zero temperatures? (Of course it never gets that cold here in balmy Victoria!) Barbara Harris. _______________________________ DR. SAMUEL M. JONES Professor Emertitus Music & Latin American Studies University of Wisconsin-Madison "Pen-y-Bryn" - 122 Shepard Terrace Madison, WI 53705-3614 USA _______________________________ EMAIL: smjones1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]facstaff.wisc.edu _______________________________ TELEPHONE: 608 + 233-2150 _______________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 17:32:13 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Posts from non-professionals I part company with Bethany to some degree; I'd like to encourage serious students to join the list (three or four of my own are on it), as long as they do the basic library dig first before asking questions, and as long as their comments are relevant and non-flaming. Steve Nolden, for example, should not be urged off the list; his comments on Black English were honestly motivated and relevant to the (sadly) recurring debate here about accurate and non-stereotyped representations of that dialect (if a bit too passionately expressed). He at least knows that invariant "be" is not applied willy-nilly but is rule-governed, and that Black English does indeed mark tense. As one who has of late been flamed by some of the most uninformed and non-researching participants on the list, I heartily second Tom Clark's suggestions for changing the list. About a year ago Dennis Preston suggested closing the list to dues-paying members of ADS only and was shot down for being "elitist." Perhaps two lists would be a reasonable compromise, with people welcome to join the moderated list if they (like Greg) are serious about learning from each other instead of simply putting out monologues. Beverly Flanigan Ohio University ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 19:21:06 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Posts from non-professionals I like the idea that you need to pay your dues if you want the list. On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Beverly Flanigan wrote: I part company with Bethany to some degree; I'd like to encourage serious students to join the list (three or four of my own are on it), as long as they do the basic library dig first before asking questions, and as long as their comments are relevant and non-flaming. Steve Nolden, for example, should not be urged off the list; his comments on Black English were honestly motivated and relevant to the (sadly) recurring debate here about accurate and non-stereotyped representations of that dialect (if a bit too passionately expressed). He at least knows that invariant "be" is not applied willy-nilly but is rule-governed, and that Black English does indeed mark tense. As one who has of late been flamed by some of the most uninformed and non-researching participants on the list, I heartily second Tom Clark's suggestions for changing the list. About a year ago Dennis Preston suggested closing the list to dues-paying members of ADS only and was shot down for being "elitist." Perhaps two lists would be a reasonable compromise, with people welcome to join the moderated list if they (like Greg) are serious about learning from each other instead of simply putting out monologues. Beverly Flanigan Ohio University ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 20:32:03 -0500 From: Jody jcstre01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Can't we all just get along? I don't like to throw any more sparks into the already burning flame about posts from non-professionals, but I feel that a few things definitely need to be said. First and foremost, I am a "non-professional," an undergraduate student if you will, and I find it disturbing that any so-called "professional" individual would even bother arguing back and forth with someone else about most of the matters that appear on this list. There have been instances in which I have logged into my email only to find these darts being thrown from BOTH directions. Certainly, some of these non-prof's need to watch what they say and choose words as well as general questions wisely, but let the same forewarning go out to all of the professionals. Thank you, Beverly, for pointing out that we are not all in the wrong or out of place in subscribing to a list such as this one. I would venture to say that there are very few who have only posted what he/she has deemed truly worth reading to the general ADS audience. It seems to me that most everyone has wasted a certain number of precious kilobytes in the posting of unnecessary, even ignorant (dare I say it?) information. Professionals and non-professionals alike SHOULD be a member of this list, if they so choose. But it is the responsibility of both parts to maintain a civil interaction so that the educational aspects can come through and leave behind the bickering. Professionals, beware of your tongue-lashing, we're just trying to get to where you are in life. Careful, or you may scare us all away. Non-professionals, use your noggin. Don't post haphazardly, and don't give these professional individuals with whom we interact a reason to hide from us. Thank you, Jody \\|// ( 0-0 ) -----.ooo0--(_)--0ooo.----- Joseph Charles Streible, Jr. ==== "Jody" jcstre01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Morehead State University .ooo0 ------( )-----0ooo.------ \ ( ( ) \_) ) / (_/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 21:47:19 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Posts from non-professionals Speaking of invariant BE, as Beverly Flanigan was recalling our having done a while back... He at least knows that invariant "be" is not applied willy-nilly but is rule-governed, and that Black English does indeed mark tense. [where "he" = Steve Nolden] ...I double-took (if that's the appropriate compound verb form) on the following headline in today's New York Times (p. A18): For Teamsters, Local Victory in Chicago Be Sign My first thought was that even thought this doesn't appear to be a "timeless" enough claim to warrant the use of invariant BE, it's nice that the Times is willing to try expanding to different dialects. On second thought, though, I suppose it's just a typo. (The first sentence of the AP story reads "A victory in a teamsters local election here [Chicago], for the wing that supported the former teamsters President Ron Carey, could be a sign that James P. Hoffa is in for a battle as he seeks to succeed Mr. Carey.") Oh well. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:21:58 -0500 From: Susan-Marie Harrington sharrin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IUPUI.EDU Subject: Re: Posts from non-professionals One of the reasons I was moved to finally pay my ADS dues was this list; it's arguably a good recruitment tool for members (although I can also understand why it would be an attractive perk for members). Perhaps some of the problems with posts that are uniformed by any apparent research, or posts that take a decidedly non-linguistic approach to linguistic matters, could be solved with an ADS-L welcome message that discusses these sorts of points. One section of the welcome message might discuss ADS-L netiquette; another section might offer examples of posts that are likely to be viewed negatively by many subscribers; another section might even offer some basic research tips (e.g. if it's an etymology question have you checked DARE/OED/etc.) so that it would be a resource for newcomers; another section might offer guidelines for teachers who want to introduce students to this list (e.g. tell your students to lurk for several weeks before posting). Listserv will send a welcome message to all new subscribers (it will either replace or come in addition to the standard boilerplate welcome we all got upon subscribing), and current subscribers can access it with a simple command--assuming that the listserv than runs this list has the same properties of the listserv on my own campus. This might be a compromise between closing the list, or splitting the list. Susanmarie Harrington sharrin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]iupui.edu Indiana University-Purdue University,Indianapolis (317) 278-1153 425 University Boulevard fax: (317) 274-2347 Indianapolis IN 46202-5140 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 22:15:32 -0500 From: Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Subject: Re: welsh/welch and taffy At 02:27 PM 12/8/97 +0000, Jim Rader wrote: The Morris's Dictionary of Word and Phrase Origins --I'm amazed it's still in print--is of value only as a collection of etymology folklore. Let's watch the sweeping (and unsubstantiated and, just incidentally, untrue) statements, shall we? -- Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]well.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:20:21 +0800 From: Russ McClay mcclay[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAOLODGE.COM.TW Subject: Keyboarding fwiw, "Keyboarding is something kids really don't like to do that much. Like I hated typing school," said Karen Kirby, who teaches after-school computer classes through her Irvine-based company, CompuQuest, (714) 261-0336 or klkirby[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]worldnet.att.net December 8, 1997 from the Los Angeles Times website (http://www.latimes.com) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:17:15 -0500 From: Kendra Banks Perry banks[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ANDREWS.EDU Subject: Re: Can't we all just get along? I would just like to give a hearty "Amen" to Jody's statements. As an undergraduate English student, I have found this list to be an interesting, informative, and even inspiring window on profesional linguistics. I joined the list when I began work on my senior honors thesis and I have gotten many good ideas and resources from observing the list, although I rarely post. I, too, was somewhat frustrated by the recent glut of messages, many of which were unprofessional and even rude. However, I was under the impression that many of these messages were posted by students required to join the list and participate as part of a class project. Perhaps some guidance from the teacher giving the assignment on proper posting etiquette and reasonable posting topics would have been helpful? Along the same lines, I think that a welcome message generated by the listserv software would go a long way toward preventing unwelcome posts. I can certainly understand the desire to maintain a list with a primarily professional tone; however, this list can be and is a valuable resource for those who have not yet attained "professional" standing but hope to someday. I value this list as a part of my research and exposure to professional linguistics, and I hope I will continue to be able to participate in the future. Sincerely, Kendra Banks Perry banks[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]andrews.edu http://www.andrews.edu/~banks ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Dec 1997 to 8 Dec 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 8 Dec 1997 to 9 Dec 1997 There are 26 messages totalling 970 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Posts and Getting Along 2. Hudson Valley -- some questions from a nonprofessional 3. ADS-L; Hazard; Legal Sharks; Linguistics Dictionary; Dog Names (2) 4. Posts from non-professionals (2) 5. Taffy (2) 6. Morris's Word and Phrase Origins 7. Openness (3) 8. FAQ? 9. RE FAQ? (2) 10. Usageasters: mea culpa 11. Publishing our journals 12. FAQ/Welcome 13. The list; FAQ (3) 14. SALSA conference 15. SALSA 16. ADS-L Archive Search 17. Gravegate; Judas Q. Priest; Sidewalk Santas; Glass Ceiling, YAP(Yuppie) 18. Interdepartmental Degree Programs in Linguistics ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Dec 1997 23:58:48 -0500 From: TERRY IRONS t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Posts and Getting Along ADS-L was created as a forum for discussing and furthering the interests and goals of the American Dialect Society. To make short shrift of the questions raised in recent posts, which were discussed long before Jesse or I became the list-owners, it is not in the best interests of ADS-L to moderate discussion or to limit participation to dues paying members of ADS. Either option amounts to censoring the variation in speech and language that we say we aim to describe. To pursue an example, the language that Steve, one of my students, used in his comments about AAVE was no less rude than some of the replies to his remarks. But the "professionals" took offense. The result is that you have silenced his voice. But perhaps you professionals need to know what voice you have silenced. Steve is a black american from Mississipi. He finds the concept of African-American to be objectionable. He is not from Africa, and there is no cultural heritage from Africa that informs or defines who he is. Steve found the comments of the so-called white male professionals about the language that he and his family speak everyday to be *crap* and he said so. Perhaps he did not follow some concept of "netiquette" in so doing. Is that a reason to deny the truth of what he had to say? Was that an excuse for being rude to him? Several of my students were excited about examining language variation. The attitude expressed by some members of this list has destroyed entirely their enthusiasm and opportunities have been lost. Everything Jody wrote rings true with me. We need to live with each other and accept ourselves as we are. What else is there? Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 00:52:47 -0600 From: Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VISI.COM Subject: Hudson Valley -- some questions from a nonprofessional If the answers to these questions are easily available, my apologies. 1) Hans Kurath seems to have written about the Hudson Valley as if it was entirely rural. Did he, or anyone at that time, investigate the speech of Albany and Kingston? 2) The "Dutch" settlers of New Paltz were Francophones from what is now Belgium, who had spent some time in the Palatine. (New Paltz was originally Die Pfalz.) Is there any material on their speech? 3) Is there any material on Dutch as spoken in the Hudson Valley? The nearest thing I could find is on Jersey Dutch, as spoken much later. It seems likely to me that Hudson Valley Dutch was not the same as any dialect in the Netherlands, or (after a while) New York City Dutch. 4) Were there any Frisian-speaking communities in the Hudson Valley? 5) Is there any material on German as spoken by German immigrants in the Hudson Valley? 6) Is there any material on the influence(s) of the New York City metro area dialect, in its various stages? Dan Goodman dsgood[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]visi.com http://www.visi.com/~dsgood/index.html Whatever you wish for me, may you have twice as much. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:10:25 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: ADS-L; Hazard; Legal Sharks; Linguistics Dictionary; Dog Names ADS-L Is this coming up again? As I've said _many_ times, the ADS needs to get much bigger (not smaller!). We need to have an online publication with the American Name Society such as AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH, something that would cover news events, movies, plays, music lyrics, books, new words and phrases, and more. Here's the latest issue: NEWS: Discussion of Gravegate, Paulagate, Travelgate, Filegate, Watergate. Reprints of recent news articles on license plate names and dog names. MOVIES: Discussion of Robin William's "pahk yah cah in Hahvahd Yahd" in GOOD WILL HUNTING. Discussion of the Southernisms of THE RAINMAKER. Discussion of AAVE and AMISTAD by two or three experts. Teen talk and SCREAM 2. BOOKS: Reviews of Peter Matthews's CONCISE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF LINGUISTICS, Anne Soukhanov's revised Flexner, AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS. THEATER: Africanisms and African naming in THE LION KING. SPORTS: Legal battle over Nets coach John Calipari's "F***ing Mexican Idiot." Rehabilitation words?--Latrell Sprewell, Marv Albert, Lawrence Phillips quotes. MUSIC: Lyrics of the latest from Will Smith, the Rolling Stones. SPECIAL INTERVIEW: AMISTAD's dialect coach (see above review). SPECIAL FEATURE: "Santa Claus" names (Sidewalk Santa, Street Corner Santa, Department Store Santa, St. Nick, Kris Kringle). SPECIAL FEATURE: "Gaspers" (autoerotic asphyxiation). NEW WORDS & PHRASES. NOTABLE WORDS & PHRASES. SPANGLISH, EBONICS, REGIONAL SPEECH COLUMNS. NOTES & QUERIES COLUMN. ANNOUNCEMENTS: ANS meeting, ADS meeting. UNOFFICIAL WORD-OF-THE-YEAR VOTES. WEB LINKS. CORRECTIONS AND COMMENTS. For example, if any discussion about AMISTAD were to appear in AMERICAN SPEECH, it would appear next year, after the movie closes! I have said many times that I would even fund such a venture through the first year, although I would expect that it would make money eventually. I don't apologize for putting etymologies on ADS-L--they are certainly professional and nearly all contain OED and RHHDAS antedates. The American Dialect Society has been a pretty lonely place for discussion of popular speech. Why make it worse? If you're not reading the above AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH issue right now, don't blame me! I'm willing to donate only time, expertise, and money... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- THE GAME OF HAZARD "Craps" comes from "crabs" in the game of "Hazard." This is not an antedate, but is from the Sporting Magazine (London), April 1794, pg. 84: The GAME of HAZARD. THIS game may be played by any number of people. The person who takes the box and dice throws a _main_, that is to say, a chance for the company, which must be more than four, but not exceeding nine: otherwise it is no main, and he must consequently continue throwing till he brings five, six, seven, eight, or nine. This done, he must throw his own chance, which may be any above three, and not exceeding ten. If he throws two aces, or trois ace (commonly called crabs) he loses his stakes, let the company's chance (which we call the main) be what it will. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- LEGAL SHARKS "Professional courtesy! Heh-heh-heh!" --end of a lousy lawyer joke. For lawyer-shark, OED has 1806 and notes that it is a nautical term. This is from the Sporting Magazine (London), October 1793, pg. 50: A _water-lawyer_, or, in plainer terms, a _shark_, was caught last month near Washington, by Mr. Richard Graham, tacksman of the fishery of J. C. Curwen, Esq. It was included in a stake-net, with several salmon, which, as supposed, it was in pursuit of Mr. Graham, and his servant had a severe conflict with the voracious fish, in which a very string spear was shivered to pieces. It was ten feet long. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- LINGUISTICS DICTIONARY I just bought THE CONCISE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF LINGUISTICS by Peter Matthews (1997, Oxford University Press, paperback, 410 pages, $13.95). It's more comprehensive (3,000 entries), but less in-depth than Crystal's dictionary. Why isn't anyone doing a CD-ROM linguistics dictionary? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- DOG NAMES First the New York Post did license plate names, and now the New York Daily News has done dog names. (What, no cat names?) It's in the December 8th newspaper on pages 7, 28, and 29. Yes, it's been a slow news week! There are 85, 735 licensed dog names in New York City. The article starts with menacing dog names such as Bad Attitude, Baddest, Bazooka, Bullett Proof, Bull Dozer, Bruglar, Bite/Bitten, Corrupt, Crusher, Curtains, Deathrow, Demon XVI, Destroyer, Ferocious, Firstblood, Mafioso, Negative, Predator, Monster, Rikers, Slasher, Sledge, Spike, Kill, Terminator, Thug, Vendetta.... This reminds me of another old joke. There was a woman who named her dog Virginity. One day, the dog was lost and she tried to find it... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 02:16:11 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Re: Posts from non-professionals On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Beverly Flanigan wrote: I part company with Bethany to some degree; I'd like to encourage serious students to join the list (three or four of my own are on it), as long as they do the basic library dig first before asking questions, and as long as their comments are relevant and non-flaming. Please note that the comment I posted on November 16 (quoted in part by Tom Clark on December 8) was designed solely to announce my intention not to criticize comments posted by people I did not know. (I had just learned via a private post that I had unwittingly taken to task a beginning student.) I offered no opinion about whether such comments should continue or whether the lsit should be changed. At this point, I have no particular opinion about either issue. Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:03:55 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: ADS-L; Hazard; Legal Sharks; Linguistics Dictionary; Dog Names At 02:10 AM 12/9/97 EST, you wrote: I just bought THE CONCISE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF LINGUISTICS by Peter Matthews (1997, Oxford University Press, paperback, 410 pages, $13.95). It's more comprehensive (3,000 entries), but less in-depth than Crystal's dictionary. Why isn't anyone doing a CD-ROM linguistics dictionary? Very few CD-ROM's have made money to date, I'm told by people who work in and with the industry (Silicon Alley in downtown NYC; NYU's Interactive Telecommunications program). Many have instead been done as give-aways included with some hardware or software purchase. But DVD's (digital video disks) are coming at this point, and can hold much more than a CD-ROM. But whether DVD will prove to be a financially viable technology is another issue. It seems to me that the advantages of CD-ROM/DVD (search capability etc.) are great. For example, you can search the entire OED2 text (not just headwords) looking for a word or collocation of phrase in about 15 seconds. But until individuals and institutions buy CD-ROM's/DVD's enough so that they make back their investment plus some kind of profit for those sinking effort and money into them, the list of available titles will remain small. Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:17:57 +0000 From: Aaron Drews aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.ED.AC.UK Subject: Taffy I took it upon myself to ask my only Welsh student what "welch" and "Taffy" mean. As you can see by his name, he's about as Welsh as you can get. Here's how he responded.... Aaron ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:03:28 +0000 From: DAFYDD JAMES 9721440[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bute.sms.ed.ac.uk To: aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ling.ed.ac.uk Subject: Re: Dialect question Hello! Regarding your queries, I have no idea what 'to welch a bet' means, but 'Taffy' is a derogatory term used to refer to a welsh boy. I don't know how much use that is to you. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:28:49 +0000 From: Jim Rader jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM Subject: Re: Morris's Word and Phrase Origins My apologies--I got a little carried away. I meant to write--and thought I had written--"is of value mainly as a collection of etymology folklore," not "only as a collection of etymology folklore." It's not that I have that low an opinion of the book--I have recommended it on occasion to laypeople looking for entertaining stories of word origins. The problem is that laypeople take these entertaining but usually unsubstantiated or impossible-to-substantiate stories as gospel. After churning out the umpteenth letter of the year explaining why we cannot accept the "port-out/starboard-home" etymology of posh --repeated in MDWPO--I get hot under the collar and curse books of this ilk. As an example of the sort of stuff I find offensive in MDWPO, let me quote the article on glottochronology and lexicostatistics : "Our candidates for this century's ugliest words are two: lexicostatistics and glottochronology . And do you know who coined them? Linguists, that's who--the very people who should be concerned with maintaining minimum linguistic standards. These two gems were coined to describe a technique by which some language researchers claim to be able to "date" the age of a word, just as Dr. Libby's carbon 14 method has successfully dated ancient artifacts." First--why these two words should be considered "ugly" is beyond me--they're no more sesquipedalian than thousands of other English words formed from Greco-Latin elements. Second-- the swipe at linguists is gratuitously anti-intellectual and gives laypeople a false idea of what linguists do. Third--the characterization of what lexicostatistics and glottochronology purport to do is wholly inaccurate. Sorry, but this entry is drivel and is going to raise the hackles of any linguist. I realize that some of the people on this list are not "professionals" (whatever that means in this field, and the subject of another current thread) and are going to look at this book differently than I do. But I consider that all the more reason to give a "professional" opinion when someone on the list cites a work that I think is demonstrably flawed. Tallying its major and minor inaccuracies would take up a lot of space. Maybe there is a newer edition of the book that has remedied some of its more egregious features (the copy at hand has a 1977 copyright). If so, I would be glad if someone would point that fact out to me. Jim Rader ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:33:19 EST From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Openness Let's not bite the hand that extends itself to us in friendship. For decades, members of ADS have worried that there aren't enough of us. Membership has been a little over 500 for the past 20 years, and before that it was even lower. That's not enough to conduct all the important research that needs to be done; not even enough to make a full program for all of our meetings. As we grow older, some of us wonder whether there will be much of a new generation to take our place. We also worry that our important discoveries don't get enough attention. We're reconsidering the publication arrangements for our two journals because they reach such a limited audience. We lament that "usageasters" (to use Tom Creswell's word) ignore our findings about actual usage; we despair at mistaken popular notions about American dialects (well, dInIs doesn't despair, he studies them) and the origins of "hot dog" or "Big Apple." And we worry about funding for our research. We need to convince people outside our field that we deserve money for great surveys of vocabulary like the Dictionary of American Regional English, of pronunciation like the Phonological Atlas of North America, or of everything in a region like LAGS and LAMSAS, as well as for our individual endeavors. We also need to convince deans and department heads of the importance of time and money for our projects. Do we refuse to let non-majors into the courses we teach? Do we speak and write only for our learned peers, refusing to offer talks to the general public or articles to newspapers and magazines? If so, then we have only ourselves to blame that no one else cares or listens. But instead . . . If on ADS-L we often need to point out that DARE has the answer: what an affirmation of the value of the millions of public and private money spent on it, and what a useful reminder of the value of turning to that book for answers. If we have to remind others that an important article on a particular topic recently appeared in American Speech, that's a useful reminder of the value of consulting it regularly, and of belonging to ADS in order to get it. And if we have to explain basic concepts and facts to outsiders - well, most of the population consists of outsiders to our field. If we can talk only to ourselves, we're pretty lonely. Besides, some of the most important advances in a field come from attempts to explain and justify it to the rest of the world. We can't sit on our laurels but must rethink what we do. Some of the most active people in our field are not on the list, or drop off from time to time. That's fine. We all have to closet ourselves now and then to get our work done. But when we do participate in the list, and when we open it to all who are interested, I think we perform an important service to our field too. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 09:52:01 -0500 From: mmcdaniel mmcdaniel_at_interval-miami[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]INTERVAL-INTL.COM Subject: Re: Posts from non-professionals I think the key to posting on any list is careful consideration. Whether someone is a student or a professional, he or she should consider the following when about to post: 1. Am I _reacting_ or _responding_? 2. Do I really have knowledge of this topic, or just an interest? 3. Am I insulting someone else? 4. Am I saying something of value to the list, or do I just like to see my own posts? Your responses to these questions should not necessarily keep you from making your post, but rather help you shape your post so that it benefits the list as much as possible. I am a magazine editor with an interest in linguistics. I tend to lurk and not post; I use the list to learn, mostly. I never post about pronunciation or etymology because I am not knowledgeable in those areas. I ask questions when I need answers, I respond to "have you ever heard..." posts, and I submit opinions when I believe mine is as valid as any other list member. I hope ADS-L will remain open to non-ADS members such as myself. I like Susanmarie's ideas for the list. I once belonged to a list that was automatically open to a certain group (ophthalmologists); anyone who was not an ophthalmologist (I do medical editing, among other things) had to apply to the moderator. If someone posted inappropriately, he or she could be removed by the moderator. Hope these thoughts help. Matthew McDaniel ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:02:44 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: FAQ? I have read the recent messages about whether non ADS members and students should post to ADS-L. I don't have strong feelings either way. My sole motive in deciding not to respond to individuals whoem I do not know personally or professionally was to avoid taking to task beginning students. In effect, I was trying to say, "If I don't know you, and you don't tell me who you are, I will assume that you are a beginning student and I will not hold you responsible for silly statements -- you have a professor who can do that." I wonder, though, whether a FAQ statement -- one that points out obvious resources like DARE -- might help? When inidividuals sign on to the list, they would receive and be asked to read the FAQ statement. If they then ask questions that are answered in the FAQ statement, tehey can briefly be reminded to read it. This procedure works on some lists I am on. On other lists, people just ignore the FAQ statement. I think this procedure would serve an admirable educational function. Who will volunteer to write it? Bethan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 11:03:10 -0600 From: Thomas Creswell creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET Subject: Re: Openness AAllan wrote: Let's not bite the hand that extends itself to us in friendship. For decades, members of ADS have worried that there aren't enough of us. Membership has been a little over 500 for the past 20 years, and before that it was even lower. That's not enough to conduct all the important research that needs to be done; not even enough to make a full program for all of our meetings. As we grow older, some of us wonder whether there will be much of a new generation to take our place. We also worry that our important discoveries don't get enough attention. We're reconsidering the publication arrangements for our two journals because they reach such a limited audience. We lament that "usageasters" (to use Tom Creswell's word) ignore our findings about actual usage; we despair at mistaken popular notions about American dialects (well, dInIs doesn't despair, he studies them) and the origins of "hot dog" or "Big Apple." And we worry about funding for our research. We need to convince people outside our field that we deserve money for great surveys of vocabulary like the Dictionary of American Regional English, of pronunciation like the Phonological Atlas of North America, or of everything in a region like LAGS and LAMSAS, as well as for our individual endeavors. We also need to convince deans and department heads of the importance of time and money for our projects. Do we refuse to let non-majors into the courses we teach? Do we speak and write only for our learned peers, refusing to offer talks to the general public or articles to newspapers and magazines? If so, then we have only ourselves to blame that no one else cares or listens. But instead . . . If on ADS-L we often need to point out that DARE has the answer: what an affirmation of the value of the millions of public and private money spent on it, and what a useful reminder of the value of turning to that book for answers. If we have to remind others that an important article on a particular topic recently appeared in American Speech, that's a useful reminder of the value of consulting it regularly, and of belonging to ADS in order to get it. And if we have to explain basic concepts and facts to outsiders - well, most of the population consists of outsiders to our field. If we can talk only to ourselves, we're pretty lonely. Besides, some of the most important advances in a field come from attempts to explain and justify it to the rest of the world. We can't sit on our laurels but must rethink what we do. Some of the most active people in our field are not on the list, or drop off from time to time. That's fine. We all have to closet ourselves now and then to get our work done. But when we do participate in the list, and when we open it to all who are interested, I think we perform an important service to our field too. - Allan Metcalf Allan, I agree with your well-argued sentiments. But I must decline taking credit for Tom Clark's (the originator of this thread) coinage _usageasters_. Tom ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 12:11:52 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE FAQ? I'd be happy to help create a FAQ. I've been meaning to go through the archives and put together a bibliography for myself, for some time, and now there's another good reason. Maybe I can do a draft and then a couple other volunteers can vet it? Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com -------------------------------------- From: Bethany K. Dumas I wonder, though, whether a FAQ statement -- one that points out obvious resources like DARE -- might help? ... ... .... Who will volunteer to write it? Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:28:15 EST From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Usageasters: mea culpa Tom Creswell writes . . . I must decline taking credit for Tom Clark's (the originator of this thread) coinage _usageasters_. and I must apologize, Tom C. (both of ye), for being so forgetful. If I hadn't paused to explain something I thought I knew perfectly well, I'd still have the wrong notion, so thanks again for ADS-L. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:28:07 EST From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Publishing our journals Ron Butters reminds me that increasing readership is only one of the reasons for re-evaluating our publishing arrangements. There is also, very importantly, the financial situation (how much ADS pays the press, or vice versa; who pays what for the editorial office; how much members pay in dues for the publications). And with the Internet becoming so important, there is the ancillary but significant question of electronic versions and copy rights. An ad hoc committee is studying this, and has proposals from several presses (including our current one, U of Alabama); and undoubtedly this will be the major topic of discussion at our Executive Council meeting in January, to which all ADS members are invited (see page 5 of the September newsletter). The committee consists of Lawrence Davis (ADS past president), chair; William Kretzschmar (editor of Journal of English Linguistics), Ronald Butters (general editor of ADS publications and editor of PADS), Walt Wolfram (ADS president), and me, with Connie Eble (AS editor) and Charles Carson (AS managing editor) as consultants. - Allan Metcalf, ADS executive secretary ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:42:36 -0500 From: Susan-Marie Harrington sharrin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IUPUI.EDU Subject: FAQ/Welcome I would be happy to help with drafting whatever document we would like; as a relative newcomer to the ADS I'd probably make better contributions to a general section on netiquette or listservs as teaching tools than to the sections on the organization. Whoever ends up organizing this should work with Terry and Jesse to make sure that what we produce is technically feasable--and we need to decide (or someone needs to decide, since listservs are horrible places to make decisions) whether we want a FAQ, which is typically organized by Qs and As and is typically posted to the group at regular intervals (sometimes in parts), or whether we want a welcome message, which would be mailed once to new subscribers. Susanmarie Harrington Susanmarie Harrington sharrin[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]iupui.edu Indiana University-Purdue University,Indianapolis (317) 278-1153 425 University Boulevard fax: (317) 274-2347 Indianapolis IN 46202-5140 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:24:20 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: RE FAQ? At 12:11 PM 12/9/97 -0500, you (Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM ) wrote: I'd be happy to help create a FAQ. I've been meaning to go through the archives and put together a bibliography for myself, for some time, and now there's another good reason. And there are other useful materials (such as reading-lists) on the ADS website that could be incorporated or linked. Note that many subscribers seem to come to the list through the ADS website in the first place, as evidenced by not infrequent posts along the lines of "Am I on now? I want to ask a question." So placing a prominent FAQ on the website might cut down on basic and repetitive queries tothe list. I might have helped, but I've aleady been volunteered by my betters to make the currently nonsearchable 1991-to-current Joyce-list archive accessible, and I won't even have time to get to that (which *is* my main research-area) till the spring.... Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 15:00:15 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: The list; FAQ A number of people have made thoughtful posts here about the perceived problems of this list and possible solutions, and I'd just like to add my feelings. There are two major functions that people seem to want ADS-L to have: to allow professional linguists to communicate, and to educate others about language in general and American dialects in particular. I think that these desires, while worthy, are incompatible. The more people who ask very basic questions we have, the more the serious and time- pressured scholars will stop bothering to respond. There are already a number of ADS members who don't belong to (or who belong to but rarely participate in) ADS-L because of the traffic from beginners. There are also other places people can go to have basic questions answered--aside from dictionaries, which would solve most of them, there's always the Usenet group alt.usage.english, which is enormously clogged with mostly basic questions and which exemplifies what I think we do not want ADS-L to become. This is not to diminish the importance of educating beginners; on the contrary, most members of ADS are educators by profession and realize the necessity of teaching. At the same time, I feel that creating a moderated version of ADS-L, or restricting it to ADS members, would enervate the list. Besides, any formal moderation would take too much effort, I'm sure. Right now I think that the S/N ratio is pretty good; I don't think we need to immediately consider any drastic steps. If it gets much worse, though, it will be time. I'm not sure an FAQ will be worth the effort involved, unless we just make a short, basic introduction to the list and its purpose. My main reason is that, as experience of other on-line media has shown, the sort of people who ask basic questions are those who are least likely to first search for the answer in a FAQ or elsewhere. Other reasons are that many of the likely questions are already answered in other on-line documents, including, for example, the FAQ to alt.usage.english. I want to add that this is simply my personal feeling on these matters, and I am not claiming any special power as co-owner of the list. Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 19:29:59 +0000 From: Roger Smith roger.smith3[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VIRGIN.NET Subject: Re: Taffy Taffy is not a derogatory term for a Welsh boy - it's a generic term, just as Jock is for a Scotsman, Yank is for an American, and Limey is for an Englishman. To welsh (not welch) a bet is to renege on it; to refuse to pay up. Roger Smith roger.smith3[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]virgin.net ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 13:27:38 PST From: barbara harris GRADMA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVVM.UVIC.CA Subject: SALSA conference Anybody out there, please HELP! Sometime ago, there was an announcement of a conference to be held at the University of Texas at Austin in April 1998, and I believe it was to be called SALSA. I thought I saved the info., but can't find it anywhere. All I remember was that abstracts were due by Jan. 15. If you can give me the pertinent information, I'll be forever grateful. Please send to GRADMA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVVM.UVIC.CA. MANY THANKS. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 14:05:44 PST From: barbara harris GRADMA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVVM.UVIC.CA Subject: SALSA Information received re SALSA conference, thanks to Mai Kuha (and to anyone else who was going to let me know about it). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 16:59:25 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU Subject: Re: The list; FAQ i agreed with all jesse sheidlower said about the state of the list: moderation is a major job; it's tough, if not impossible, to balance the desire to have a professional forum and the desire to convert linguistic neophytes; faq's make us feel better, but don't actually solve problems; there are other forums for lay people's questions about language. on the last two points, a faq would be more useful if it were not just something sent out at the beginning of the subscription, but posted to the list (or to an individual) at times when people complain about the level of the discussion, and it would be most useful if it informed people of other venues in which they could have their questions answered. the alt.english.usage discussion, the ask-a-linguist service, and some web sites may be good directions in which to point. as for having undergrads join the list, while i too want my students to be exposed to other ideas and to discuss linguistic matters outside of class, many undergrads (i.e., some in any class) will not benefit much by experience in a high-falutin' place like this--either because they are intimidated by or lost in it or because they do not realize how high-falutin' we actually are. for my linguistics classes, i'm doing a intra-university listserv, through which my students can communicate about the issues we've discussed in class, forward messages and websites of interest to us, etc. (i, of course, forward appropriate things from the lists i belong to). next semester, we hope to have a linguistics club here, and then the list will be open to its members, people in my classes, or alumni of linguistics classes. i'd recommend this arrangement to others teaching undergrad linguistics. it works well. best, lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 18:32:05 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: ADS-L Archive Search I am testing a shareware search engine for possible use on a web server and as my test documents I have included all the ADS-L archives available on the ADS-L web page (most of 1996 and 1997). I do not believe there is a search engine for existing archives, so you might find this useful. The URL is: http://www.dfjp.com/cgi-bin/WarpSearch.html -- The pages are set up in such a way as to prevent robots, indexers, crawlers or spiders from automatically picking up email addresses from the archives. Spammers cannot sponge addresses from these pages without a lot more work than from the regular archives. -- This is only a test. I have no plans to offer this search capability permanently unless there is a loud clamor for the service. -- I have split the per-month files available on the ADS-L site into individual digests rather than messages. The digests are not named according to the period they cover because I had a program automatically search the files and look for the "end of digest" string and start all new files there, and then automatically name them. -- The resulting digest files are kind of ugly. They may be missing line breaks (although I plan to fix that), but all the text is there. Please feel free to hammer away at the site. Complaints, insults and comments welcome. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 18:49:17 -0500 From: Fred Shapiro fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Gravegate; Judas Q. Priest; Sidewalk Santas; Glass Ceiling, YAP(Yuppie) On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Bapopik wrote: The earliest "yuppie" citations are in January 1984, but if this article appeared in the March 1984 monthly, it was on the stands in February 1984 and written in either January 1984 or December 1983. In my article, "Yuppies, Yumpies, Yaps, and Computer-Assisted Lexicology," American Speech 61 (1986): 139-46, I traced "yuppie" back to a usage by Bob Greene in the Chicago Tribune, 23 March 1983. Greene's usage is usually said to be the first appearance in print. Jesse Sheidlower, however, has sent me this earlier citation from the Random House files: 1982 L.A. Times 24 Oct. I. 1 The young woman voter -- the female "yuppie," as Chicago pollsters refer to "young urban professionals" in their town. A still earlier occurrence has also come to my attention subsequent to my writing my article: 1982 Joseph Epstein in Commentary June 61 His [John Irving's] novels exert their greatest pull on those people who are undecided about growing up; they are college-educated, getting on and even getting up in the world, but with a bit of the hippie-dippie counterculture clinging to them still -- yuppies, they have been called, the initials YUP standing for young urban professionals. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1997 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:03:24 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Interdepartmental Degree Programs in Linguistics I am collecting information about undergraduate interdeparmental degree programs in linguistics. If your program is not represented by a webpage that can be found by search machines such as yahoo and alta vista -- or if you want to be certain that your institution is included -- or if you can update web information, please send me a personal note -- I will summarize to the lists. Thanks, Bethany Dumas dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 22:48:41 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: The list; FAQ Jesse Sheidlower writes: I want to add that this is simply my personal feeling on these matters, and I am not claiming any special power as co-owner of the list. In my view, Jesse does have special powers in the good sense and good-will-to-humanity departments. His view on this matter has my strong endorsement. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Dec 1997 20:26:53 -0800 From: Kim & Rima McKinzey rkm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SLIP.NET Subject: Re: Openness Let's not bite the hand that extends itself to us in friendship.... YES!!!!! Allan, as usual, has put it all very well. Not all of us "professionals" are in academia with full departments of research material at our immediate beck and call. Please let us not contribute to the stereotype of rarified, patronizing Academic. I work at home and have a good many of what would be considered "basic" reference materials, but not all. There are many posted topics about which I have absolutely no interest. There are many about which I do. But that's why God invented the delete key. None of us has an infinite amount of time to spend on e-mail - much less the time sink of the Web. I was feeling entirely too intimidated to stick my two cents in (and then annoyed at feeling intimidated), but I just had to agree with Allan (also Terry). Rima ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Dec 1997 to 9 Dec 1997 ********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 9 Dec 1997 to 10 Dec 1997 There are 24 messages totalling 814 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. How cold was it? (3) 2. Cheap at half the price; Sell bridges in Sahara; Weasels; Craps, World Champs 3. Taffy 4. Posts and Getting Along (5) 5. ADS-L; Hazard; Legal Sharks; Linguistics Dictionary; Dog Names (3) 6. RE FAQ? (5) 7. Russian request: spoken dictionary 8. Posts and Getting Along -Reply 9. Openness (3) 10. FAQ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 00:06:59 EST From: Davidhwaet Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: How cold was it? My understanding of the phrase, "It's cold enough to freeze the balls on a brass monkey" is that the monkey is a triangle made of brass upon which cannon balls were stacked. When it got cold enough, the balls would freeze on the brass monkey. Nothing to do with the little guy's anatomy. David R. Carlson Springfield College Springfield MA ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 02:10:44 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Cheap at half the price; Sell bridges in Sahara; Weasels; Craps, World Champs CHEAP AT HALF THE PRICE When you're Christmas shopping, you may be looking for something that's "cheap at half the price." I didn't find this in AMERICAN PROVERBS. Partridge has it to 1920, but states it may go back to the 1890s. I got this while cleaning my files and don't know if it's an antedate. It's from the San Francisco Chronicle, 28 February 1904, "BILLY BOUNCE TAKES THE BUNCH TO THEIR ANNUAL CLEANING." After the cleaning, Billy Bounce says, "Much o'bliged! It's cheap at half the price." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- SELL BRIDGES IN THE SAHARA DESERT No, this isn't from a Hollywood agent saying, "ENGLISH PATIENT? You want Jeff Bridges! Sure, babe, you can sell Bridges in the Sahara Desert!" Perhaps it's a variant of "selling the Brooklyn Bridge," or "selling like hotcakes." After "sell bridges in the Sahara Desert" came "sell ice to Eskimos." Like the above, I couldn't find many citations, and found this one in my files. The H. C. Fisher "Mutt and Jeff" cartoon for 27 May 1922 (many newspapers, but this copy is from the Cleveland Plain Dealer) is titled "Jeff Could Sell Bridges in the Sahara Desert." I came back from the Sahara Desert recently. It could use bridges. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- WEASELS This should have been part of the "lizards" and "elephants" posting. Theodore Roosevelt used the phrase "weasel words" in the 1920s, and the DA has this phrase from 1900. I noticed an article in the New York Sun, 19 November 1870, pg. 2, col. 5, titled "A POLITICAL WEASEL." The story involves political campaign financing, and the subhead is, "The Smartest Politician in the State--Gen. John H. Ketcham's Great Victory--How he Went for $15,000 and Got it--How he Spent the Money." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- "CRAPS" CORRECTION The 12 June 1886 Cincinnati Enquirer article was copied correctly, but I just noticed that I also have the original in my files. It's from the Chicago Tribune, 6 June 1886, pg. 13, col. 2. The Enquirer article mistakenly contained no attribution; I found both articles independently. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- WORLD CHAMPIONS (BASEBALL) The "World Series" in baseball always confused me, because only North American teams were involved. The Little League World Series was always won by Taiwan! Paul Dickson is doing a revised BASEBALL DICTIONARY and I have to send stuff. On page 424, it's stated that "1st 1884. First 'World's Championship Series' held in New York, according to research conducted by the National Baseball Library. Edward J. Nichols finds the term World Series in the 1887 _Spalding Official Base Ball Guide_." I found this today in the New York Sun, 21 June 1871: CHAMPIONS OF THE WORLD. --------------------------------------------- THE GREATEST GAME OF BASE BALL EVER PLAYED. --------------------------------------------- A Most Exciting Game--Brilliant Batting and fine Pitching--The Mutuals once were Victorious--Score. 8 to 6--Philadel- phia in Tears--The Athletics Defeated. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:06:49 +0000 From: Aaron Drews aaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LING.ED.AC.UK Subject: Re: Taffy On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Roger Smith wrote: }Taffy is not a derogatory term for a Welsh boy - it's a generic term, }just as Jock is for a Scotsman, Yank is for an American, and Limey is }for an Englishman. Well, it was a Welshman's interpretation that I sent, and he takes it as derogatory. Perhpas derogatory is a bit strong, because "Yank" and "Limey" are certainly not positive words, but not derogatory. If there is going to be contempt when one refers to these nationalities, these would be the words used (along with other ones, to be sure). } }To welsh (not welch) a bet is to renege on it; to refuse to pay up. } I believe that was clarified in previous posts. I guess, though, one has to be a gambler to be aware of the phrase. All I was doing was trying to get a Welshman's opinion/interpretation of the words, since there seem to be so few signed up on this list. One student's interpretation isn't Gospel, but I'd say his intuition is slightly more informed than, say, all of us Yanks talking here. :) --Aaron ===================================================================== ====== Aaron E. Drews http://www.ling.ed.ac.uk/~aaron Ph.D. Candidate +44 (0)131 650-3485 The University of Edinburgh fax: +44 (0)131 650-3962 Departments of Linguistics and English Language ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:50:21 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Posts and Getting Along Maybe what we need is a not a new ADS-L list, but one that addresses the needs of many of the non-professionals--something lke "words and phrase queries." I would like to see such queries elsewhere, and ADS-L confined to a discussion of reserach issues in dialectology and soicolinguistics. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:51:17 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: ADS-L; Hazard; Legal Sharks; Linguistics Dictionary; Dog Names I think ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:51:56 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: ADS-L; Hazard; Legal Sharks; Linguistics Dictionary; Dog Names I think below is what I meant.--Tim ------------------------------------------------------------ On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Bapopik wrote: ADS-L Is this coming up again? As I've said _many_ times, the ADS needs to get much bigger (not smaller!). We need to have an online publication with the American Name Society such as AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH, something that would cover news events, movies, plays, music lyrics, books, new words and phrases, and more. Here's the latest issue: NEWS: Discussion of Gravegate, Paulagate, Travelgate, Filegate, Watergate. Reprints of recent news articles on license plate names and dog names. MOVIES: Discussion of Robin William's "pahk yah cah in Hahvahd Yahd" in GOOD WILL HUNTING. Discussion of the Southernisms of THE RAINMAKER. Discussion of AAVE and AMISTAD by two or three experts. Teen talk and SCREAM 2. BOOKS: Reviews of Peter Matthews's CONCISE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF LINGUISTICS, Anne Soukhanov's revised Flexner, AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS. THEATER: Africanisms and African naming in THE LION KING. SPORTS: Legal battle over Nets coach John Calipari's "F***ing Mexican Idiot." Rehabilitation words?--Latrell Sprewell, Marv Albert, Lawrence Phillips quotes. MUSIC: Lyrics of the latest from Will Smith, the Rolling Stones. SPECIAL INTERVIEW: AMISTAD's dialect coach (see above review). SPECIAL FEATURE: "Santa Claus" names (Sidewalk Santa, Street Corner Santa, Department Store Santa, St. Nick, Kris Kringle). SPECIAL FEATURE: "Gaspers" (autoerotic asphyxiation). NEW WORDS & PHRASES. NOTABLE WORDS & PHRASES. SPANGLISH, EBONICS, REGIONAL SPEECH COLUMNS. NOTES & QUERIES COLUMN. ANNOUNCEMENTS: ANS meeting, ADS meeting. UNOFFICIAL WORD-OF-THE-YEAR VOTES. WEB LINKS. CORRECTIONS AND COMMENTS. For example, if any discussion about AMISTAD were to appear in AMERICAN SPEECH, it would appear next year, after the movie closes! I have said many times that I would even fund such a venture through the first year, although I would expect that it would make money eventually. I don't apologize for putting etymologies on ADS-L--they are certainly professional and nearly all contain OED and RHHDAS antedates. The American Dialect Society has been a pretty lonely place for discussion of popular speech. Why make it worse? If you're not reading the above AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH issue right now, don't blame me! I'm willing to donate only time, expertise, and money... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- THE GAME OF HAZARD "Craps" comes from "crabs" in the game of "Hazard." This is not an antedate, but is from the Sporting Magazine (London), April 1794, pg. 84: The GAME of HAZARD. THIS game may be played by any number of people. The person who takes the box and dice throws a _main_, that is to say, a chance for the company, which must be more than four, but not exceeding nine: otherwise it is no main, and he must consequently continue throwing till he brings five, six, seven, eight, or nine. This done, he must throw his own chance, which may be any above three, and not exceeding ten. If he throws two aces, or trois ace (commonly called crabs) he loses his stakes, let the company's chance (which we call the main) be what it will. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- LEGAL SHARKS "Professional courtesy! Heh-heh-heh!" --end of a lousy lawyer joke. For lawyer-shark, OED has 1806 and notes that it is a nautical term. This is from the Sporting Magazine (London), October 1793, pg. 50: A _water-lawyer_, or, in plainer terms, a _shark_, was caught last month near Washington, by Mr. Richard Graham, tacksman of the fishery of J. C. Curwen, Esq. It was included in a stake-net, with several salmon, which, as supposed, it was in pursuit of Mr. Graham, and his servant had a severe conflict with the voracious fish, in which a very string spear was shivered to pieces. It was ten feet long. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- LINGUISTICS DICTIONARY I just bought THE CONCISE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF LINGUISTICS by Peter Matthews (1997, Oxford University Press, paperback, 410 pages, $13.95). It's more comprehensive (3,000 entries), but less in-depth than Crystal's dictionary. Why isn't anyone doing a CD-ROM linguistics dictionary? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- DOG NAMES First the New York Post did license plate names, and now the New York Daily News has done dog names. (What, no cat names?) It's in the December 8th newspaper on pages 7, 28, and 29. Yes, it's been a slow news week! There are 85, 735 licensed dog names in New York City. The article starts with menacing dog names such as Bad Attitude, Baddest, Bazooka, Bullett Proof, Bull Dozer, Bruglar, Bite/Bitten, Corrupt, Crusher, Curtains, Deathrow, Demon XVI, Destroyer, Ferocious, Firstblood, Mafioso, Negative, Predator, Monster, Rikers, Slasher, Sledge, Spike, Kill, Terminator, Thug, Vendetta.... This reminds me of another old joke. There was a woman who named her dog Virginity. One day, the dog was lost and she tried to find it... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:55:09 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: RE FAQ? I give up. What a FAQ? On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Grant Barrett wrote: I'd be happy to help create a FAQ. I've been meaning to go through the archives and put together a bibliography for myself, for some time, and now there's another good reason. Maybe I can do a draft and then a couple other volunteers can vet it? Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com -------------------------------------- From: Bethany K. Dumas I wonder, though, whether a FAQ statement -- one that points out obvious resources like DARE -- might help? ... ... .... Who will volunteer to write it? Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:03:01 EST From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Russian request: spoken dictionary This just in. I don't know anything about it except what it says. If you have a reply for Mr. Sukhorukov, please e-mail him directly because he's not on ADS-L. (Of course, comments to ADS-L on this matter are welcome.) - Allan Metcalf -------------------------- Dear Sir/Madam, The company "Concern-Rostov" (Rostov-on-Don, Russia) is in the process of developing locally a course dedicated to learning the following languages: English, American, French, German, Spanish, Italian, Ivrit and Russian. In order to develop such a course we are looking for audio-dictionaries (wav, mp3, etc) of the most widely used words (up to 10,000 words), spoken by a native speaker. We are able to pay in advance for such material should you already have it available. If you do not have such material, we would like to order a spoken dictionary either according to your existing guidelines or to guidelines proposed by us. The technical details will be discussed separately should you be interested in our order. Yours faithfully, Andy Sukhorukov, Concern-Rostov. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:07:03 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: RE FAQ? At 08:55 AM 12/10/97 -0600, you wrote: I give up. What a FAQ? An acronym for "frequently asked questions." That's a format consisting of a list of questions and answers, usually in some more or less logical or convenient order, and usually with an index or (in some cases) search-function. FAQ's are compiled by various internet lists and sites. The goal is to avoid having the same basic questions that tend to be frequently asked by new arrivals come up for discussion over and over from scratch on the same (in this case) e-mail listserv. One could still bring up FAQ topics, but would be expected to raise some new angle or issue, or add something not mentioned in the FAQ, or question or correct the FAQ where necessary. Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:08:21 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Re: RE FAQ? On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Timothy C. Frazer wrote: I give up. What a FAQ? A document addressing Frequently Asked Questions. ^ ^ ^ Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:10:38 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: RE FAQ? I give up. What a FAQ? A _FAQ_ (pronounced as one word /faek/), which stands for "frequently asked questions," is a document that in general introduces a subject and provides answers to questions that are often asked about the subject. The FAQ for alt.usage.english, for example, discusses specific reference books, has short essays about common quesions of grammar and etymology, gives useful references to English-related information on the Web, etc. The purpose of a FAQ is not only to provide basic information, but also to prevent common questions from recurring--every time someone asks "what's the origin of 'the whole nine yards'?" or "what's the third word ending in -gry," it clogs up everying as people jump in to answer. If this material can be found in a FAQ, it won't be asked openly. In theory. Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:11:54 MST From: "http://www.usa.net/~ague" ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM Subject: Re: ADS-L; Hazard; Legal Sharks; Linguistics Dictionary; Dog Names I think Therefore you am! -- Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:23:38 -0500 From: Fred Shapiro fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Posts and Getting Along On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Timothy C. Frazer wrote: Maybe what we need is a not a new ADS-L list, but one that addresses the needs of many of the non-professionals--something lke "words and phrase queries." I would like to see such queries elsewhere, and ADS-L confined to a discussion of reserach issues in dialectology and soicolinguistics. Speaking as someone who is not a professional linguist, but who has a strong interest in certain aspects of linguistics, I would like to make the following observation: Historically, the American Dialect Society and the journal American Speech have included lexicology and lexicography among their areas of interest. Today, the interests of ADS members are predominantly dialectology and sociolinguistics, but, to me at least, it would be a shame if lexicology and lexicography were excluded altogether from the American Dialect Society, American Speech, and ADS-L. It is worth noting that, if the American Dialect Society wishes to maintain its links to sources of publicity and funding such as the popular press, excluding lexicology and lexicography would be shooting itself in the foot, since these areas are of greater interest to the public than are dialectology and sociolinguistics. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1997 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 05:47:26 -1000 From: Norman Roberts nroberts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAWAII.EDU Subject: Re: How cold was it? My understanding of the phrase, "It's cold enough to freeze the balls on a brass monkey" is that the monkey is a triangle made of brass upon which cannon balls were stacked. When it got cold enough, the balls would freeze on the brass monkey. Nothing to do with the little guy's anatomy. David R. Carlson Springfield College Springfield MA However, in the frozen north, at least when I lived there long ago, there was the expression "cold enough to freeze the balls OFF a brass monkey." As I recall, it was also "colder than a well digger's arse in January." And here in Hawaii right now it is "long sleeve days and two blanket nights." Aloha e N ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 11:02:03 -0500 From: Herb Stahlke hstahlke[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GW.BSU.EDU Subject: Re: Posts and Getting Along -Reply What you're describing is something like the Ask-A-Linguist service on Linguist-L. It's designed so that the non-specialist can get answers from specialists. Herb Stahlke "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU 12/10/97 09:50am Maybe what we need is a not a new ADS-L list, but one that addresses the needs of many of the non-professionals--something lke "words and phrase queries." I would like to see such queries elsewhere, and ADS-L confined to a discussion of reserach issues in dialectology and soicolinguistics. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 08:40:49 MST From: "http://www.usa.net/~ague" ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM Subject: Re: RE FAQ? After reading the third immediate response to "what a FAQ is", I come across this: ... it clogs up everying as people jump in to answer. If this material can be found in a FAQ, it won't be asked openly. In theory. So should the FAQ explain what a FAQ is? -- Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 09:55:18 PST From: barbara harris GRADMA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVVM.UVIC.CA Subject: Re: How cold was it? I like David's explanation of the "brass monkey." I never could figure out what an ornamental monkey would have been doing out in the cold anyway. I first heard the expression (as an adult) from my father, a retired gunner, so presumably he knew what it meant (not that he was old enough to have fired canons himself!). ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 10:11:34 -0800 From: "A. Maberry" maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: Openness As one who is neither linguist nor dialectologist, I agree with the Allan, Terry and the McKinzeys. I haven't found the traffic on the list excessive, and, even if some of the questions could be considered naive by professional linguists, they are certainly not as frequent as on some lists I've seen. If someone asks a very general question to the list, I try to respond to them personally so as not to add to the duplication of answers that invariably appears. I realize that the list is NOT a substitute for standard reference sources, and it might not be useful to have a FAQ since the answer would often be "See DARE". Perhaps a message clearly defining the scope and purposes of the list should be sent to new subscribers (maybe to all subscribers) to remind us what we, as members of the list, consider appropriate postings. Terry and Jesse, is there an option to receive the list in digest form? I have found that it is a lot easier to keep track of lists that can be sent in this way? -- Thanks. Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu On Tue, 9 Dec 1997, Kim & Rima McKinzey wrote: Let's not bite the hand that extends itself to us in friendship.... YES!!!!! Allan, as usual, has put it all very well. Not all of us "professionals" are in academia with full departments of research material at our immediate beck and call. Please let us not contribute to the stereotype of rarified, patronizing Academic. I work at home and have a good many of what would be considered "basic" reference materials, but not all. There are many posted topics about which I have absolutely no interest. There are many about which I do. But that's why God invented the delete key. None of us has an infinite amount of time to spend on e-mail - much less the time sink of the Web. I was feeling entirely too intimidated to stick my two cents in (and then annoyed at feeling intimidated), but I just had to agree with Allan (also Terry). Rima ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:19:12 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: FAQ Two more drops in this bucket, assuming that we do develop a FAQ. 1. A newsgroup I subscribe to (rec.music.filk [sic]) posts its FAQ periodically, about every two weeks. That would be burdensome to a mailing list, but a periodic reminder would not be. It could take such a form as: The FAQ (list of Frequently Asked Questions) for ADS-L is available on the Web at http://..., or by email by the following procedure. Please read it if you're new to the list. It was most recently revised as of [date]. 2. Anyone pointing their students to this list, singly or en masse, should require that they read the FAQ first. Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 13:56:26 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: Posts and Getting Along Well, Fred, you ought to come sit at some of the bars I go to. Lexicography (and lexicology) rarely come up. How them critters talk funny over there (construed broadly, it goes without saying) does pretty often. DInIs PS: There has been a Dicionary Society (DSNA) for some time; surely it is the 'right' place for those principally concerned with these matters (although I agree that lexicon should hardly be excluded from ADS or for that matter its publications or general concerns of dialectology and/or sociolinguistics). On a testier note (though accepting full reponsibility for our need to make what we do known and make how it is relevant better known), I would not like to see any scientific field's principal work defined (or redefined) by resetting (or abandoning) its goals to meet popular notions. On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Timothy C. Frazer wrote: Maybe what we need is a not a new ADS-L list, but one that addresses the needs of many of the non-professionals--something lke "words and phrase queries." I would like to see such queries elsewhere, and ADS-L confined to a discussion of reserach issues in dialectology and soicolinguistics. Speaking as someone who is not a professional linguist, but who has a strong interest in certain aspects of linguistics, I would like to make the following observation: Historically, the American Dialect Society and the journal American Speech have included lexicology and lexicography among their areas of interest. Today, the interests of ADS members are predominantly dialectology and sociolinguistics, but, to me at least, it would be a shame if lexicology and lexicography were excluded altogether from the American Dialect Society, American Speech, and ADS-L. It is worth noting that, if the American Dialect Society wishes to maintain its links to sources of publicity and funding such as the popular press, excluding lexicology and lexicography would be shooting itself in the foot, since these areas are of greater interest to the public than are dialectology and sociolinguistics. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Fred R. Shapiro Coeditor (with Jane Garry) Associate Librarian for Public Services TRIAL AND ERROR: AN OXFORD and Lecturer in Legal Research ANTHOLOGY OF LEGAL STORIES Yale Law School Oxford University Press, 1997 e-mail: fred.shapiro[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]yale.edu ISBN 0-19-509547-2 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:29:17 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: Openness Allan Mayberry writes: Terry and Jesse, is there an option to receive the list in digest form? I have found that it is a lot easier to keep track of lists that can be sent in this way? -- Thanks. Yes, there is a digest option for ADS-L. To change your reception to the digest (which, for those who don't know, compiles messages for about a day and then sends them all in one shot, the advantage being that you get one big message instead of a bunch of small ones, the disadvantage being chiefly the time factor), send the command: set ads-l digest to the address listserv[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu --NOT to this list. Or Terry or I could do it for you. In response to a comment in another message from DInIs, there is a Dictionary Society of North America, but it doesn't have a mailing list on line. There is DICTY, a recent list set up for lexicographers, but it gets very little traffic, which I fear would be the result of an exclusionary ADS-L as well. Jesse Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 14:37:29 +0000 From: Buchmann buchmann[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BELLSOUTH.NET Subject: Re: Openness Perhaps a message clearly defining the scope and purposes of the list should be sent to new subscribers (maybe to all subscribers) to remind us what we, as members of the list, consider appropriate postings. AUTOMATICALLY - on a monthly basis. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 16:09:51 -0500 From: Pat Courts courts[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AIT.FREDONIA.EDU Subject: Re: Posts and Getting Along There is much that DInIs says and writes that I agree with, though I think he ought to sign his name dInIs because the cap D confuses the issue. And I agree that it is unnecesary and foolish to redefine a field's listserv to serve popular notions. Hell, I'll even join ADS when someone sends the info about how to join. But on a more serious note, I think you make a mistake If you limit the list's membership. Cheers, Pat Courts ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 18:55:32 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: Posts and Getting Along Allan Metcalf, Are you there? Get an application to Courts. I'll sponsor (or vouch for) him. In fact, I'll do whatever is necessary to make him join ADS except pay his dues. dInIs (who might have spelled it this way but eschewed it due to e e cummings associations) There is much that DInIs says and writes that I agree with, though I think he ought to sign his name dInIs because the cap D confuses the issue. And I agree that it is unnecesary and foolish to redefine a field's listserv to serve popular notions. Hell, I'll even join ADS when someone sends the info about how to join. But on a more serious note, I think you make a mistake If you limit the list's membership. Cheers, Pat Courts Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Dec 1997 to 10 Dec 1997 *********************************************** Subject: ADS-L Digest - 10 Dec 1997 to 11 Dec 1997 There are 5 messages totalling 361 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. ADS-L again; Bean Town; Wicked Chicago; Nuts 2. Russian request - spoken dictionary (with address) 3. How cold was it? 4. night before xmas 5. Openness ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 02:32:45 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: ADS-L again; Bean Town; Wicked Chicago; Nuts ADS-L AGAIN How does that song go in OKLAHOMA!? The farmer and the cowboy can be friends? What about the sociolinguists and etymologists? Aren't the words and phrases we use and how we use them both equally important? Do you have to use the word "unprofessional"?? Ouch!! Now I know how dentists and chiropractors feel! Next time you get a toothache or a backache, you won't go to a professional brain surgeon, will you? Although no one's done so, give some thought to an online AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH magazine such as the one I posted. The linguists might go to the AMISTAD review, the lexicographers might go to NEW WORDS AND PHRASES or NOTES AND QUERIES, and onomasts might check out the origin of Pumbaa in THE LION KING review. There's something for everybody--and I do mean that! I left something out of that posting--sound cards. The online magazine will have sound! It'll be amazing!! Cool! Neato! Even fun!! Say only one out of every thousand people who see a movie checks out our review of it. That's gonna be thousands of people! And say one of those people is a Bill Gates or Ross Perot, and he goes to our web site, and he reads about DARE. Or say it's a student, and that student then becomes interested in linguistics and wants to take your courses and buy your books. Think about AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH again. I think it's our future. We shouldn't enter the next millennium without it. Hakuna Matata! (See LION KING review for etymology. Punch sound card for audio clip.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- BEAN TOWN RHHDAS defines "Beantown" as Boston, Massachusetts and has 1901 as the earliest citation. However, Boston's baseball team was known as the Beaneaters much before this. Actually, Boston stole Beantown! This is from the New-York Commercial Advertiser, 11 September 1871, pg. 1, col. 1.: A Bean Town. Beverly, Massachusetts, says a correspondent, is know as "Bean Town." (Boston is not mentioned!--ed.) No virtuous citizen of that place thinks of passing Sunday morning without baked pork and beans for breakfast. Formerly they went to the different bakeries Saturday nights, each man with his bean pot. Each pot was numbered with a check as received and the number given to the owner, and crowds would gather around the bakery door, Sunday morning, each man calling his number and receiving his pot. But now they have a pottery in the town, and each householder has had his bean pot made to order, with his name or initials baked into the sides, and the plan works beautifully. The bakers charge six cents for baking beans, and it is no mean source of revenue. (There it is--a thirty year antedate of American Speech. Not on the Dictionary Society of America's list. Right here on ADS-L! H. L. Mencken would be proud! For those who don't want to read this type of thing, think again about the above--where this would be in its own section.) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- WICKED CHICAGO Before the "Windy City," Chicago was the "Wicked City." I've been going through the 1871 pre-Chicago fire newspaper sources, and "Wicked Chicago" is there. This is from the New York Sun, 9 August 1871, pg. 2, col. 7: DOC PLATT'S PATHETIC BALLAD OF CHICAGO (_with the accent heavy on the "go"_), TOUCHING THE DIVORCE CASE OF CRAIG VS. SPRAGUE. I sing a breach or promise That happened long ago, Where the waters of the river Like roses seem to flow, Where Amanda Craig was trifled with, In the town of Chicago. There was an ancient duffer, As rich as rich could be, Who loved the fair Amanda, "The inexpressive she." And "he loved her as his Jesus," And he spelled it with a "G." Amanda was no chicken, Though tender as a dove; She lived in Cincinnati, Where the market is out slow; So she listened to the duffer Of the wicked Chicago. (...) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- NUTS Just a minute. My apartment has been invaded by Rowan Atkinson! POPIK: Get out of here, Bean!! You missed your cue!! I did "Bean Town" two etymologies ago!! Sorry. Good thing that guy doesn't talk! On to "nuts." The RHHDAS has a very large "nut(s)" entry. I posted the song "I'm a Nut" a few months ago. This is from the New-York Commercial Advertiser, 15 September 1871, pg. 2, col. 3: The exposure of the spoliations committed by the carpet-bag governments in some of the Southern States is "nuts" for the Richmond _Whig_. And the worst of it is, that it can with such perfect confidence, defy the President to crack them. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:33:17 EST From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Russian request - spoken dictionary (with address) Good grief! I didn't include Mr. S's e-mail address! So, with apologies for sending the message again, his address is: krost[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]icomm.ru If you have a reply for Mr. Sukhorukov, please e-mail him directly because he's not on ADS-L. (Of course, comments to ADS-L on this matter are welcome.) - Allan Metcalf -------------------------- Dear Sir/Madam, The company "Concern-Rostov" (Rostov-on-Don, Russia) is in the process of developing locally a course dedicated to learning the following languages: English, American, French, German, Spanish, Italian, Ivrit and Russian. In order to develop such a course we are looking for audio-dictionaries (wav, mp3, etc) of the most widely used words (up to 10,000 words), spoken by a native speaker. We are able to pay in advance for such material should you already have it available. If you do not have such material, we would like to order a spoken dictionary either according to your existing guidelines or to guidelines proposed by us. The technical details will be discussed separately should you be interested in our order. Yours faithfully, Andy Sukhorukov, Concern-Rostov. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 09:53:28 -0600 From: wachal robert s rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Subject: Re: How cold was it? The origin of the brass monkey phrase is not entirely relevant anymore than the fact that "transpire" originally had something to do with plant membranes. When I was gowing up in Fargo ND many years ago, we called our region the "Nortwest" in a misguided attempt to placate the geographical ignorance of easterners who labelled us that way. One night when temperatures were forecast to drop below minus 20, a radio announcer began his 10 o'clock broadcast with "People all over the Northwest are taking in their brass monkeys tonight." Everone knew the expression "Cold enought to freexe the balls/nuts off a brass monkey." We also knew "Cold enough to freeze a well-diggers nuts," which was euphemized as "Cold enough to freeze a well-diggers knuckels." So Barbara Harris, you were right the first time. Bob Wachal On Wed, 10 Dec 1997, Norman Roberts wrote: My understanding of the phrase, "It's cold enough to freeze the balls on a brass monkey" is that the monkey is a triangle made of brass upon which cannon balls were stacked. When it got cold enough, the balls would freeze on the brass monkey. Nothing to do with the little guy's anatomy. David R. Carlson Springfield College Springfield MA However, in the frozen north, at least when I lived there long ago, there was the expression "cold enough to freeze the balls OFF a brass monkey." As I recall, it was also "colder than a well digger's arse in January." And here in Hawaii right now it is "long sleeve days and two blanket nights." Aloha e N ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:47:49 CST From: Ellen Johnson Ellen.Johnson[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WKU.EDU Subject: night before xmas The following seems to be making the internet rounds and I thought it might be of interest to some of you as a parody of lexical choice in a particular register, to describe it in my own jargon. I found it odd that it was entitled: A Politically Correct Night Before Christmas. Ellen 'Twas the Night Before Christmas' as written by a technical writer for a firm that does Government contracting . . . 'Twas the nocturnal segment of the diurnal period preceding the annual Yuletide celebration, and throughout our place of residence, kinetic activity was not in evidence among the possessors of this potential, including that species of domestic rodent known as Mus musculus. Hosiery was meticulously suspended from the forward edge of the wood burning caloric apparatus, pursuant to our anticipatory pleasure regarding an imminent visitation from an eccentric philanthropist among whose folkloric appellations is the honorific title of St. Nicholas. The prepubescent siblings, comfortably ensconced in their respective accommodations of repose, were experiencing subconscious visual hallucinations of variegated fruit confections moving rhythmically through their cerebrums. My conjugal partner and I, attired in our nocturnal head coverings, were about to take slumberous advantage of the hibernal darkness when upon the avenaceous exterior portion of the grounds there ascended such a cacophony of dissonance that I felt compelled to arise with alacrity from my place of repose for the purpose of ascertaining the precise source thereof. Hastening to the casement, I forthwith opened the barriers sealing this fenestration, noting thereupon that the lunar brilliance without, reflected as it was on the surface of a recent crystalline precipitation, might be said to rival that of the solar meridian itself - thus permitting my incredulous optical sensory organs to behold a miniature airborne runnered conveyance drawn by eight diminutive specimens of the genus Rangifer, piloted by a minuscule, aged chauffeur so ebullient and nimble that it became instantly apparent to me that he was indeed our anticipated caller. With his ungulate motive power travelling at what may possibly have been more vertiginous velocity than patriotic alar predators, he vociferated loudly, expelled breath musically through contracted labia, and addressed each of the octet by his or her respective cognomen - "Now Dasher, now Dancer..." et al. - guiding them to the uppermost exterior level of our abode, through which structure I could readily distinguish the concatenations of each of the 32 cloven pedal extremities. As I retracted my cranium from its erstwhile location, and was performing a 180-degree pivot, our distinguished visitant achieved - with utmost celerity and via a downward leap - entry by way of the smoke passage. He was clad entirely in animal pelts soiled by the ebony residue from oxidations of carboniferous fuels which had accumulated on the walls thereof. His resemblance to a street vendor I attributed largely to the plethora of assorted playthings which he bore dorsally in a commodious cloth receptacle. His orbs were scintillant with reflected luminosity, while his submaxillary dermal indentations gave every evidence of engaging amiability. The capillaries of his malar regions and nasal appurtenance were engorged with blood which suffused the subcutaneous layers, the former approximating the coloration of Albion's floral emblem, the latter that of the Prunus avium, or sweet cherry. His amusing sub- and supralabials resembled nothing so much as a common loop knot, and their ambient hirsute facial adornment appeared like small, tabular and columnar crystals of frozen water. Clenched firmly between his incisors was a smoking piece whose grey fumes, forming a tenuous ellipse about his occiput, were suggestive of a decorative seasonal circlet of holly. His visage was wider than it was high, and when he waxed audibly mirthful, his corpulent abdominal region undulated in the manner of impectinated fruit syrup in a hemispherical container. He was, in short, neither more nor less than an obese, jocund, multigenarian gnome, the optical perception of whom rendered me visibly frolicsome despite every effort to refrain from so being. By rapidly lowering and then elevating one eyelid and rotating his head slightly to one side, he indicated that trepidation on my part was groundless. Without utterance and with dispatch, he commenced filling the aforementioned appended hosiery with various of the aforementioned articles of merchandise extracted from his aforementioned previously dorsally transported cloth receptacle. Upon completion of this task, he executed an abrupt about- face, placed a single manual digit in lateral juxtaposition to his olfactory organ, inclined his cranium forward in a gesture of leave-taking, and forthwith effected his egress by renegotiating (in reverse) the smoke passage. He then propelled himself in a short vector onto his conveyance, directed a musical expulsion of air through his contracted oral sphincter to the antlered quadrupeds of burden, and proceeded to soar aloft in a movement hitherto observable chiefly among the seed-bearing portions of a common weed. But I overheard his parting exclamation, audible immediately prior to his vehiculation beyond the limits of visibility: "Ecstatic Yuletide to the planetary constituency, and to that self same assemblage, my sincerest wishes for a salubriously beneficial and gratifyingly pleasurable period between sunset and dawn." Received: from axp1.wku.edu by INETGW.WKU.EDU (SMTPLINK V2.11 PreRelease 4) ; Thu, 11 Dec 97 10:49:25 CST Return-Path: owner-odaat[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecnet.net Received: from srv1.ecn.bgu.edu (143.43.32.81) by axp1.wku.edu (MX J5.0) with ESMTP; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:49:23 -0600 Received: from srv1.ecnet.net (xlistprc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]localhost [127.0.0.1]) by srv1.ecn.bgu.edu (8.7.3/8.7.2) with SMTP id KAA13432; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:41:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (uxa.ecn.bgu.edu [143.43.32.11]) by srv1.ecn.bgu.edu (8.7.3/8.7.2) with ESMTP id KAA12113 for odaat[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]srv1.ecnet.net ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:29:20 -0600 (CST) Received: (from daemon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]localhost) by uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (8.8.2/8.8.2) id KAA14152 for odaat[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]srv1.ecnet.net; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:29:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from bastion1.dbisna.com (firewall-user[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bastion1.dbisna.com [159.137.146.252]) by uxa.ecn.bgu.edu (8.8.2/8.8.2) with ESMTP id KAA14132 for odaat[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecnet.net ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 10:29:20 -0600 (CST) Received: by bastion1.dbisna.com; id LAA18152; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:29:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from dnbbhmsx03.us.dbisna.com(159.137.9.35) by bastion1.dbisna.com via smap (3.2) id xma017347; Thu, 11 Dec 97 11:27:47 -0500 Received: by dnbbhmsx03.us.dbisna.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52) id 01BD0628.10FC7180[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dnbbhmsx03.us.dbisna.com ; Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:29:38 -0500 Message-ID: c=US%a=_%p=DNB%l=DNB/DNBHQ/0010EB82[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dnbbhmsx03.us.dbisna.com Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 11:38:00 -0500 Reply-To: GehmanK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.dnb.com Sender: owner-odaat[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecnet.net From: "Gehman, Kirk" GehmanK[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.dnb.com To: For people in 12 step recovery programs to share experiences odaat[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecnet.net Subject: FW: A Politically Correct Night Before Christmas X-To: For people in 12 step recovery programs to share experiences odaat[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecnet.net X-PH: V3.12[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uxa.ecn.bgu.edu X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.995.52 X-Listprocessor-Version: 8.0 -- ListProcessor(tm) by CREN ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 19:50:48 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: Openness I side with the proponents of openness for the ads-l postings. "Non-professionals" should be very welcome for the insight they may bring from their respective backgrounds. Ditto for students, who bring may lack the breadth of knowledge of their professors but who bring a fresh look to their new field of study. The insights and potential contributions of these two groups should be sought out and developed. And their questions should be encouraged, since questions often lead to insight. --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Dec 1997 to 11 Dec 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 11 Dec 1997 to 12 Dec 1997 There are 13 messages totalling 591 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Java 2. American Popular Speech; White House 3. RE American Popular Speech (2) 4. Night Before Xmas 5. White House (2) 6. Morris's Word and Phrase Origins 7. getting along 8. gleeking (3) 9. American Popular Speech ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:14:57 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Java Java is the name for coffee and also, of course, a computer language. OED and the RHHDAS both have citations to 1850. This nice article on coffee is from the Public Ledger (Philadelphia), 10 April 1841, pg. 2, col. 1: BAD COFFEE.--We advise families to burn their own coffee; jast as the "Men of Nerve," so funnily represented by Power, advises his hostess to lay her own eggs. Coffee roasters, who sell coffee already prepared for boiling, are found in all of the great cities; and, according to New York papers, those of Gotham cut some queer capers. As we are far in advance of Gotham in modern banking, for Gotham sticks to the old practice of paying on demand, who knows but we may be in advance of her in coffee roasting? If we do beat them in that, we really do a tall business; and we therefore advise our coffee drinkers to look out, lest they be compelled, when they least expect it, to cast up their accounts. In Gotham the roasters buy up all the damaged coffee, mix it with two or three hundred per cent of peas, beans, baked potatoes, and other _proxies_, roast and grind the _compound_, and sell it for old Java, best Brazil, prime St. Domingo, and even Mocha. In all coffee countries, the refuse, consisting of what is broken by the hulling mills, or what is defective in growth, eaten by insects, or otherwise damaged, is separated from the _merchantable_ qualities, and sold under the name of _triage_. This trash, whenever brought into our ports, is bought by the coffee roasters. Besides this, they buy all the coffee damaged by salt water or otherwise. Let coffee drinkers imagine what prime Mocha they have from Brazil _triage_, damaged Havana, peas, beans, and dried potatoes. Buy your own coffee, and roast it at home. Besides, coffee is best when made immediately after roasting. We now have Starbucks on every block in "Gotham," so all that's obviously changed. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 01:34:51 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: American Popular Speech; White House AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH No response? No response at all? The AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH online publication will accept ads (which, on the computer, would be charged per site "hit"). Unlike AMERICAN SPEECH, everyone who writes for it will be PAID! It could be a lot or a little--whatever the ADS & ANS feel like payin'. Depends on the site "hits." We'll send a press release to every computer magazine and computer column. We'll tell every college and high school language program. We'll get an Associated Press story. Entertainment Weekly, too. Maybe even Safire will write about it. And we'll advertise. If you go to the movies, you notice that there are advertising slides before the main presentation. One of the slides will say something like, "Movie Reviews & a lot more. WWW.AMPOPSPEECH.COM, a new (free!) online magazine from the American Dialect Society and the American Name Society." Those kids who go to the movies are very computer literate. Many are applying to college programs, including language programs. Not one is an ADS member, and probably not one has read AMERICAN SPEECH. That's our fault. The first issue of AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH online will have 50,000-100,000 hits. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- WHITE HOUSE AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS has "White House" as the word of the year for 1811. Is this too early? I found this--which never mentions "White House"--in the Public Ledger (Philadelphia), 13 April 1841, pg. 2, col. 4: "THE PALACE."--We perceive that the Washington letter writers apply this term to the President's house. One of them, in writing to the Journal of Commerce, says that the arrangements for the funeral of General Harrison were made at the "palace." This letter writer is, probably, an Englishman; and were this a solitary instance of substitution of foreign for native phraseology, we should let it pass without notice. But when we daily meet with similar attempts, we feel disposed to say a word in favor of our own established usages and terms. One of the New York papers, conducted by a foreigner, calls the President and his Secretaries, "the Ministry." We are not disposed to adopt foreign terms, when terms for the same ideas are established among us by custom, and especially when they are established by law. _Palace_, a term recognised by the laws of England, is not mentioned in ours, and the executive residence at Washington is legally named, in acts of Congress, the _President's House_. Therefore, our laws have settled the question; and we ought to have _native_ pride _enough_ to observe them, and _too much_ to reject them for the sake of becoming servile imitators of European aristocracies. Neither _ministry_ nor _cabinet_, as applied to the President and heads of departments, are recognized by our laws. But the latter is recognized by _custom_, and that ought to be a sufficient argument against the change. But if it be not, we find another in the resemblance which the charge establishes between us and European monarchies. If we are really ashamed of our legal or political costume, and must go abroad for fashions, let us borrow from _Republics_, and not from monarchies. If the term _Cabinet_ does not suit us, let us borrow something from Holland or Switzerland. The Dutch, though living under a monarchy, still retain their republican language and customs. The Jews very wisely thought that the exclusion of foreign manners and customs was a good barrier against foreign corruptions. We might profit by their wisdom, and _hanker_ less after John Bull's cast clothes. If the Lincoln Bedroom really is for sale, maybe we should go back to "palace." ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:32:59 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE American Popular Speech Some thoughts about your American Popular Speech Online concept: -- I think I detect some hyperactive overpromoting on your part just for the sake of getting people interested so I won't really address your way-high estimates of hits per day. -- I don't imagine that we would be able to pay anyone a cent based on the revenues received from banner advertising. Being professionally interested in online advertising, I can tell you for certain that there are oodles of sites receiving 50,000 hits a day (about 10,000 unique visitors) that have a difficult time finding advertisers. -- It seems to me that you spend a large part of your day reading yellowed newspapers and fending off "hi!" chats from 13-year-old AOL users, so you must have some idea of how much time it would take to put together something like American Popular Speech Online. It's all the problems of a magazine and a software publisher combined. -- That said, where do I sign up? I'll donate my time, web server space and my pen. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com (Barry's original posts enclosed below for reference). -------------------------------------- From: Bapopik ADS-L Is this coming up again? As I've said _many_ times, the ADS needs to get much bigger (not smaller!). We need to have an online publication with the American Name Society such as AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH, something that would cover news events, movies, plays, music lyrics, books, new words and phrases, and more. Here's the latest issue: NEWS: Discussion of Gravegate, Paulagate, Travelgate, Filegate, Watergate. Reprints of recent news articles on license plate names and dog names. MOVIES: Discussion of Robin William's "pahk yah cah in Hahvahd Yahd" in GOOD WILL HUNTING. Discussion of the Southernisms of THE RAINMAKER. Discussion of AAVE and AMISTAD by two or three experts. Teen talk and SCREAM 2. BOOKS: Reviews of Peter Matthews's CONCISE OXFORD DICTIONARY OF LINGUISTICS, Anne Soukhanov's revised Flexner, AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS. THEATER: Africanisms and African naming in THE LION KING. SPORTS: Legal battle over Nets coach John Calipari's "F***ing Mexican Idiot." Rehabilitation words?--Latrell Sprewell, Marv Albert, Lawrence Phillips quotes. MUSIC: Lyrics of the latest from Will Smith, the Rolling Stones. SPECIAL INTERVIEW: AMISTAD's dialect coach (see above review). SPECIAL FEATURE: "Santa Claus" names (Sidewalk Santa, Street Corner Santa, Department Store Santa, St. Nick, Kris Kringle). SPECIAL FEATURE: "Gaspers" (autoerotic asphyxiation). NEW WORDS & PHRASES. NOTABLE WORDS & PHRASES. SPANGLISH, EBONICS, REGIONAL SPEECH COLUMNS. NOTES & QUERIES COLUMN. ANNOUNCEMENTS: ANS meeting, ADS meeting. UNOFFICIAL WORD-OF-THE-YEAR VOTES. WEB LINKS. CORRECTIONS AND COMMENTS. For example, if any discussion about AMISTAD were to appear in AMERICAN SPEECH, it would appear next year, after the movie closes! I have said many times that I would even fund such a venture through the first year, although I would expect that it would make money eventually. I don't apologize for putting etymologies on ADS-L--they are certainly professional and nearly all contain OED and RHHDAS antedates. The American Dialect Society has been a pretty lonely place for discussion of popular speech. Why make it worse? If you're not reading the above AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH issue right now, don't blame me! I'm willing to donate only time, expertise, and money... ... Although no one's done so, give some thought to an online AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH magazine such as the one I posted. The linguists might go to the AMISTAD review, the lexicographers might go to NEW WORDS AND PHRASES or NOTES AND QUERIES, and onomasts might check out the origin of Pumbaa in THE LION KING review. There's something for everybody--and I do mean that! I left something out of that posting--sound cards. The online magazine will have sound! It'll be amazing!! Cool! Neato! Even fun!! Say only one out of every thousand people who see a movie checks out our review of it. That's gonna be thousands of people! And say one of those people is a Bill Gates or Ross Perot, and he goes to our web site, and he reads about DARE. Or say it's a student, and that student then becomes interested in linguistics and wants to take your courses and buy your books. Think about AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH again. I think it's our future. We shouldn't enter the next millennium without it. Hakuna Matata! (See LION KING review for etymology. Punch sound card for audio clip.) AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH No response? No response at all? The AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH online publication will accept ads (which, on the computer, would be charged per site "hit"). Unlike AMERICAN SPEECH, everyone who writes for it will be PAID! It could be a lot or a little--whatever the ADS & ANS feel like payin'. Depends on the site "hits." We'll send a press release to every computer magazine and computer column. We'll tell every college and high school language program. We'll get an Associated Press story. Entertainment Weekly, too. Maybe even Safire will write about it. And we'll advertise. If you go to the movies, you notice that there are advertising slides before the main presentation. One of the slides will say something like, "Movie Reviews & a lot more. WWW.AMPOPSPEECH.COM, a new (free!) online magazine from the American Dialect Society and the American Name Society." Those kids who go to the movies are very computer literate. Many are applying to college programs, including language programs. Not one is an ADS member, and probably not one has read AMERICAN SPEECH. That's our fault. The first issue of AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH online will have 50,000-100,000 hits. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 10:45:59 -0600 From: Thomas Creswell creswell[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CROWN.NET Subject: Night Before Xmas I wonder if someone would be kind enough to post to me a copy of the recent ADS-L message containing a parody of the Xmas poem in PC language. I majored in cyberineptitude and graduated at the head of my class, so I characteristically inadvertently zapped the message, which I intended to save because of my interest in register-influenced variant versions of messages. Thanks in advance ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:21:23 EST From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: White House Asks Barry Popik - AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS has "White House" as the word of the year for 1811. Is this too early? The authors of ASMW, duty-bound to their public, humbly offer this excerpt from the book, so that all may decide for themselves: 1811 White House The residence of the president of the United States did not start out as the White House. In the early years of its occupancy by the Adamses and Jeffersons, it was called the President's House. It took a proclamation by Theodore Roosevelt in 1901 to officially designate it the White House. . . . Legend says it got the name White House when it was rebuilt and painted white after the British burned it in 1814. In fact, it was known as the White House at least three years earlier. A letter of 1811 mentions a politician who went "to act as a sort of political conductor to attract the lightning that may issue from the clouds round the Capitol and the White House at Washington." Source: 1811 citation in W.A. Craigie, _Dictionary of American English on Historical Principles_, and M.M. Mathews, _Dictionary of Americanisms on Historical Principles_, s.v. White House. We have benefited greatly from Barry's sightings and citings, and will make a note to mention "Palace" in this entry in our next edition. - Allan Metcalf & David Barnhart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:20:20 -0500 From: Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Subject: Re: Morris's Word and Phrase Origins At 09:28 AM 12/9/97 +0000, Jim Rader wrote: My apologies--I got a little carried away. I meant to write--and thought I had written--"is of value mainly as a collection of etymology folklore," not "only as a collection of etymology folklore." It's not that I have that low an opinion of the book--I have recommended it on occasion to laypeople looking for entertaining stories of word origins. The problem is that laypeople take these entertaining but usually unsubstantiated or impossible-to-substantiate stories as gospel. After churning out the umpteenth letter of the year explaining why we cannot accept the "port-out/starboard-home" etymology of posh --repeated in MDWPO--I get hot under the collar and curse books of this ilk. Arrghh. I know. The "posh" entry is mortifying, and there are many others that are either flat-out wrong or incomplete and/or misleading. I mentioned "posh" in particular to my father before his death a few years ago, and he suggested that this (and others) might be fixed in a subsequent edition (which would be my responsibility, he added gleefully). Unfortunately, I cannot embark on a revision of the book without the legal cooperation of my five siblings, one of whom is uncooperative, to put it very mildly. I am hoping to clear the way for a revision in the near (but not immediate) future. I, too, am mildly surprised that the book is still in print, but perhaps less so because I also know it still sells quite well and produces very respectable royalties. I think it does have its strengths -- a cheerful, conversational tone, broad coverage, the inclusion of many unusual folk terms and phrases, lots of amusing anecdotes, etc. I also believe that it is, at over 600 pages, by far more often accurate than not. I do think that there is a place for entertaining word origin stories aimed at the general reader -- the same audience that has made the newspaper column on which the book is based so popular for the past 45 years. But, to be honest, given the flaws in the current incarnation of MDWPO, I tend to recommend the M-W book of word origins to people who ask for a starting point. As an example of the sort of stuff I find offensive in MDWPO, let me quote the article on glottochronology and lexicostatistics : "Our candidates for this century's ugliest words are two: lexicostatistics and glottochronology . And do you know who coined them? Linguists, that's who--the very people who should be concerned with maintaining minimum linguistic standards. These two gems were coined to describe a technique by which some language researchers claim to be able to "date" the age of a word, just as Dr. Libby's carbon 14 method has successfully dated ancient artifacts." First--why these two words should be considered "ugly" is beyond me--they're no more sesquipedalian than thousands of other English words formed from Greco-Latin elements. Second-- the swipe at linguists is gratuitously anti-intellectual and gives laypeople a false idea of what linguists do. Third--the characterization of what lexicostatistics and glottochronology purport to do is wholly inaccurate. Again, this entry is simply mortifying, and I agree with all your points. I'm afraid that I have discovered that I have profound differences with my parents on a number of issues (especially their prescriptivism and antiscientific bias, both of which show in the above entry). I do think that MDWPO (as opposed to their Harper Dictionary of Contemporary Usage, now (mercifully) out of print) is largely free of anti-intellectual prejudice. -- Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:40:41 -0800 From: Peter Richardson prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: getting along I agree with Jody and Kendra, who suggest that this list is a fine way for students to see what thoughtful and articulate academics talk about. As I mentioned earlier this term, I asked my students to eavesdrop on the list for this reason, and we found ourselves coming back again and again to topics under discussion here on these very screens. Especially challenging--and therefore ultimately rewarding--was the flurry of exchanges about _nigger_ at the end of October. Because this course is an ersatz freshman English class, the students were grateful to have a specific topic (title: "Language Matters") and to be expected to engage it as adults. I'm indebted to the members of this list, therefore, who so successfully demonstrate what a privilege and a joy it is to indulge in scholarly discourse without losing sight of the human foundation that must underlie the entire enterprise. Peter Richardson On Mon, 8 Dec 1997, Kendra Banks Perry wrote: I would just like to give a hearty "Amen" to Jody's statements. As an undergraduate English student, I have found this list to be an interesting, informative, and even inspiring window on profesional linguistics. ..... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:18:24 -0500 From: Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WORD-DETECTIVE.COM Subject: Re: RE American Popular Speech I think APSO is a great idea, but I also agree with Grant: At 10:32 AM 12/12/97 -0500, Grant Barrett wrote: Some thoughts about your American Popular Speech Online concept: -- I think I detect some hyperactive overpromoting on your part just for the sake of getting people interested so I won't really address your way-high estimates of hits per day. -- I don't imagine that we would be able to pay anyone a cent based on the revenues received from banner advertising. Being professionally interested in online advertising, I can tell you for certain that there are oodles of sites receiving 50,000 hits a day (about 10,000 unique visitors) that have a difficult time finding advertisers. Yup, you'd better forget advertising. A pledge/subscription scheme might well generate some minimal income, but the site would have to be a labor of love. Some more revenue might be generated by affiliating with amazon.com and establishing an online bookstore annex to APSO, which would give you a small cut (5-10%) of books sold through the site. This is easy to set up. -- It seems to me that you spend a large part of your day reading yellowed newspapers and fending off "hi!" chats from 13-year-old AOL users, so you must have some idea of how much time it would take to put together something like American Popular Speech Online. It's all the problems of a magazine and a software publisher combined. -- That said, where do I sign up? I'll donate my time, web server space and my pen. Hear, hear. Go for it, Barry. As I've said before, I think that your stuff (and much of what other folks post here, let alone what they'd write if given a forum such as APSO) is too good to relegate to the ADS-L archives. -- Evan Morris words1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]word-detective.com http://www.word-detective.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:29:49 -0800 From: Peter Richardson prichard[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]LINFIELD.EDU Subject: Re: White House from Bill Bryson's _Made in America_, p. 293: On the original plans, the building was described only as "the Palace." No one knows when people started calling it the White House--but, oddly, it appears to have been before it was painted white. From 1800, when John Adams became its first resident, to 1814, when the British ransacked and partly burned it, the building was of unadorned gray Virginia freestone. Only after the British had vandalized it was it decided to paint it white to cover the smoke stains. So it is a little odd that people were calling it the White House as early as 1810. In any case, the name didn't become official until Theodore Roosevelt began printing it on the executive mansion stationery sometime after 1901. ... not the last word, of course, but an interesting one because of the color issue. Peter Richardson ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 17:31:11 +0000 From: Lynne Murphy M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BAYLOR.EDU Subject: gleeking i've been asked by students here about the origins of a term--[glik] (gleek? gleak? gleke? gliek?) that's used by kids to refer to some way of projecting water or saliva around the teeth and tongue. i don't know this word and can't find it in my slang dicts. does anyone have a clue? tia, lynne -- M. Lynne Murphy Assistant Professor in Linguistics Department of English Baylor University PO Box 97404 Waco, TX 76798 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 19:00:12 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: gleeking At 05:31 PM 12/12/97 +0000, you (M_Lynne_Murphy[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]baylor.edu) wrote: i've been asked by students here about the origins of a term--[glik] (gleek? gleak? gleke? gliek?) that's used by kids to refer to some way of projecting water or saliva around the teeth and tongue. i don't know this word and can't find it in my slang dicts. does anyone have a clue? I've no idea, from a contemp. US perspective (have never heard it actually used). But in OED the verb "gleek" (with variant spellings such as some of those you list just above) means to trick or circumvent, to joke or jibe, or to look askew. As a noun (OED gleek n.2) it means a jest or a flirting glance. Possibly quite unrelated to any contemporary US "gleek," but there it is for what it is or ain't worth, faute de mieux (pas encore, anyway). Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 16:55:20 -0800 From: Judi Sanders jasanders[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: gleeking Lynne, I don't know the origin but I can tell you that the term's in UCLA Slang 2 (1993) and UCLA Slang 3 (1997). Judi Judi Sanders Professor, Communication California State Polytechnic University, Pomona Pomona, Ca 91768 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 20:35:04 -0500 From: "Jeutonne P. Brewer" jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HAMLET.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: American Popular Speech I have read your postings about American Popular Speech and intended to reply. However, this is end of semester, research paper, and exam time for many of us on the list. That means we spend far more time reading students' paprs than writing email messages and articles at this time of the year. I like your idea. I am less sure about the advertising/income claims, but those claims aren't necessarily the main point of such a site. I would be interested in working with an American Popular Speech site. I like the idea. Thanks for suggesting it. Jeutonne Brewer ********************************************** Jeutonne P. Brewer, Associate Professor Department of English University of North Carolina at Greensboro Greensboro, NC 27412 email: jpbrewer[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hamlet.uncg.edu URL: http://www.uncg.edu/~jpbrewer *********************************************** ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Dec 1997 to 12 Dec 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 12 Dec 1997 to 13 Dec 1997 There are 2 messages totalling 250 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Poker; Jew; Pimp; White House; Java; Johnny Cake; Salt River; at al. 2. Kriss Kringle ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 23:07:37 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Poker; Jew; Pimp; White House; Java; Johnny Cake; Salt River; at al. Here are a few of the items I collected today from the Public Ledger of Philadelphia. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- POKER From the Public Ledger, 11 May 1836, pg. 3, col. 1: They play _Poker_. The two men above named were held in their own recognizance of $100 to appear to-morrow morning at the officer, and a warrant was issued for String; we have no doubt but that his Honor will _poke_ him into jail. OED's earlier "poker" (card game) is also 1836. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- JEW This early citation (but not an antedate) is from the Public Ledger, 28 August 1841, pg. 2, col. 1: After all their pains to "_jew_" the printer, they pursue the very course to get most egregiously "_jewed_" themselves.... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- PIMP Tom Dalzell also wanted "pimp" for his SLANG OF SIN. From the Public Ledger, 29 July 1836, pg. 2, col. 4: A parcel of vagabond scamps, some 15 or 20 in number, hooted the defendant, calling him by the opprobrious epthet of "pimp," they being probably aware that he lived in a house of ill fame, or perhaps suspecting it... ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- WHITE HOUSE Along with "palace" and "President's house," the "White House" was also this, from the Public Ledger, 20 August 1841, pg. 4, col. 1: The Madisonian has the following account of the disgraceful conduct of rowdies in front of the President's mansion. "A company of individuals collected in Sixth street, near the Avenue, on Monday night, and marched to the Executive Mansion..." O.K., so there's "palace," "President's House," "White House," "mansion," and "Executive Mansion." Is that it? No! This is from the Public Ledger, 4 March 1841, pg. 2, col. 3: EXTRAVAGANCE AT THE WHITE HOUSE.--The Washington correspondent of the New York Courier says the President elect caused an inquiry to be made, a few days ago, as to the state of the furniture at the 'People's House,' and was astonished to find that there were not beds, bedsteads, or bedding sufficient for his family..." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- JAVA What else could follow "White House" but "coffee"? The production for 1841 (Java is second only to Brazil) is given in the Public Ledger, 2 August 1841, pg. 1, col. 6: _Production_.--Brazil 70,000 tons; Java 50,000; Cuba and Porto Rico 25,000; St. Domingo 15,000; British West Indies 6,000; Sumatra 6,000; Moch, &c., 5,000; Ceylon and British India 3,000; French and Dutch West Indies 3,000; Laguira and Porto Cabello 10,000. Total, 193,000 tons. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- JOHNNY CAKE I copied a folk etymology a year ago. This is from the Public Ledger, 21 May 1836, pg. 1, col. 4: We beg to correct this corruption of names. The real name is Journey cake; that is, cake made in haste for a journey. _Johnny_ cake! We might as well call it _Tommy_ or _Pelatiah_ cake! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- SALT RIVER "Up the Salt River" would be used in the political campaign of 1840. This is from the Public Ledger, 20 May 1836, pg. 2, col. 2: The Salt River Journal complains that horse thieves are getting to be uncomfortably plenty in that neighborhood.--_Boston Post_. Why don't the _Salt Riverians_ row the thieves up the river? In the west, to be rowed up Salt River is considered as a _finis_. Nothing more can be done. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- PIPE LAYERS OED has 1840, so I can antedate only the verb. This is from the Public Ledger, 28 April 1841, pg. 2, col. 2: If it find among public officers any men addicted to intemperance, gaming, licentiousness, or other vices, any swindlers, any common slanderers, any of those cheats at the polls, now technically called _pipe layers_, it is bound to remove them promptly and indignantly, and will show open, reckless contempt for its moral obligations by the least hesitation. This is from the Public Ledger of 4 May 1841, pg. 2, col. 2: ...one infamously distinguished, for fraud and perjury and _pipe laying_, and all the base acts of the partisan _drummer_ and _borer_. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- LITERARY EMPORIUM Much before "the Hub" and "Bean Town," Boston was the "Literary Emporium." The Public Ledger, 21 April 1836, pg. 2, col. 2, "the 'Literary emporium,' as Kean nick-named it." Edmund Kean was a famous Shakesperean actor. It is curious that DARE, DA, RHHDAS and whatever all don't have the popular folk pronunciation of Boston--"Bosting." Among other places, "Bosting" is in the Public Ledger of 30 July 1841, pg. 4, col. 1. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- "SOUNDING THE SNOOZERS" This is from the Public Ledger, 26 February 1841, pg. 2, col. 2: "SOUNDING THE SNOOZERS" is a cant phrase among the young pickpockets of New York. One of them was caught a night or two ago in fishing a watch from the pocket of a man, who, overcome by his potations, was taking a sleep at his own door. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- HOLY ROLLERS This is in the Dictionary of Americanisms, but the OED and Soukhanov's new Flexner both miss it. The DA (and the RHHDAS) quote another newspaper's reprint a month later, but this is the original, from the Public Ledger, 18 March 1841, pg. 2, col. 4: A NEW SECT.--A new sect of Religionists, so called, has sprung up in Yates county, New York, called the "Sweezyites, or Holy Rollers," an appellation applied on account of their exercises being those of rolling upon the floor. They practice, it is said, an indiscriminate communion of the sexes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- WALK SPANISH In an article about tainted elections, the Public Ledger of 21 October 1841, pg. 2, col. 4, says "let them _walk Spanish_." ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 23:06:44 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Kriss Kringle I've been going through the Public Ledger of Philadelphia, which was perhaps The New York Times of early 19th century America. I could probably do a faster job on "Kriss Kringle" by checking December of each year, but I've been going through the whole year, looking for "Canucks" and other items. The Public Ledger nicely reprinted the best items from New York and Boston newspapers. "Kriss Kringle" means "Christ Child." OED's earliest citation is for "Christ-kindle" in the ANNALS OF PHILADELPHIA for 1830. The next citation is in the late 1840s. CHRISTMAS IN AMERICA: A HISTORY (Oxford University Press, 1995) by Penne L. Restad states on pages 50-51: "..._Kriss Kringle's Book_, in 1842, and _Kriss Kringle's Christmas Tree: a holliday present for boys and girls_, in 1845." THE BATTLE FOR CHRISTMAS (Random House, 1996) by Stephen Nissenbaum states on page 126, "In 1842, a Philadelphia publisher brought out _Kriss Kringle's Book_, a gift book for children that explained the ritual of St. Nicholas..." On page 127: "In 1845 two other Philadelphia publishers entered the Kriss Kringle market. One came out with _Kriss Kringle's Christmas Tree_...the other publisher producted a book called _Kriss Kringle's Raree Show, for Good Boys and Girls_..." It stands to reason, from these two highly scholarly books, that _Kriss Kringle's Book_ was published in 1842. Only an absolute idiot would even bother to check. This is from the Public Ledger of Philadelphia, 8 December 1841, pg. 2, col. 5: KRISS KINKLE'S BOOK.--A handsome volume, and one well adapted for a Christmas present for the young, has just been published by Cowperthwaite & Co., called "St. Nicholas; or, Kriss Kinkle's Book for all Good Boys and Girls." It consists of a series of entertaining tales, illustrated with a number of wood cuts, and an excellent likeness upon the cover of the veritable Nicholas himself, regaling himself with a pipe. Young masters and misses would be pleased with its contents. This is from the Public Ledger, 25 December 1841, pg. 1, col. 3: "KRISS KRINGLE'S BOOK."--Messrs Thomas, Cowperthwait & Co. have published a book with the above title, which is an admirable thing in its way, and which I would certainly have purchased as a holiday present for my little folks, but for the abominable name they have given it. I have a lingering affection for the superstitions of my boyish days, and I have no doubt there are many more in like case in Pennsylvania, who will groan in spirit with me over the misnomer of our old friend, whose annual visit was looked forward to be the great event of the season. The publishers have done him still deeper wrong in confounding him with St. Nicholas. "Kriss Kringle," say they, "is a name given by children to St. Nicholas." This may do very well for New Yorkers, who, coming from Holland, have lost half the good things they inherited from their German ancestors, especially those that smack of poetry. (Everybody's gotta take a swipe at New York--ed.) We have two Christmas heroes, Peltz- Nichol and Krist-Kinkel, according to popular pronunciation. The former is a jolly old fellow, well wrapped in furs, who cuts all manner of antics, and whose name is assumed by the chief of the holiday mummers, if those funny variets still "go about," levying their black mail of cider and minced pies. He is identical with St. Nicholas or Santa Claus, and holds sway from the 6th of December to Christmas day, pinching and playing kicks on the bad children and promising the good ones that Krist-Kinkel will bring them presents when he comes. This latter name is a corruption of _Christ-Kindlein_, the infant Savior. He is never mischievous, and fills the stockings of good children to the brim with toys and sweetmeats. The bad ones he hands over to Peltz- Nichol, who slily slips into their stocking a hickory switch, a quid of tobacco, or, at best, a handful of _appel schnitts_. He derives his name from the fur or _Peltz_ with which he keeps his old body warm in his aerial rides through the bitter December nights. Honor to the hearty old cock! May he or his "counterfeit presentment" never knock at the door of a Pennsylvania farmer, without meeting a cordial welcome and his mug of molled order (mulled enter?-ed.), by the genial glow of a blazing gum back-log. May our children, too, be preserved from the blessings of education by steam, which would shut up the doors of their little wonder-land, and long continue to think that the gentle Christ-Kindlein hovers over their innocent joys, to approve and encourage them in well doing, so that they may follow freely and gladly in the footsteps of "the young child, Jesus." SCHNAPPS. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Dec 1997 to 13 Dec 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 13 Dec 1997 to 14 Dec 1997 There are 3 messages totalling 105 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. 'Mudville" (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 11:07:38 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: 'Mudville" I recently received a request from _Boston Globe_ writer Robert Smith for help in locating the original town Mudville (assuming it existed) that inspired E.L. Thayer in his poem "Casey at the Bat." I replied that the town is almost certainly mythical, like "Dogpatch" of the Li'l Abner comic strip. I quoted from Paul Dickson's baseball dictionary and also referred Mr. Smith to onomastics scholar Leonard Ashley. Mr. Smith replied: "I still hold hope of finding the mythical Mudville, so I would appreciate you querying your learned friends [at ads-l]. E.L. Thayer never pinpointed the place, but he grew up in central Massachusetts and some in these parts are convinced it is here." A definitive answer might be available from the Massachusetts Historical Society (I'll check the address tomorrow). Meanwhile, are any ads-l subscribers able to help out Mr. Smith by shedding any light at all on "Mudville?" --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:52:15 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: 'Mudville" At 11:07 AM 12/14/97 -0500, you wrote: I recently received a request from _Boston Globe_ writer Robert Smith for help in locating the original town Mudville (assuming it existed) that inspired E.L. Thayer in his poem "Casey at the Bat." I replied that the town is almost certainly mythical, like "Dogpatch" of the Li'l Abner comic strip. I quoted from Paul Dickson's baseball dictionary and also referred Mr. Smith to onomastics scholar Leonard Ashley. Mr. Smith replied: "I still hold hope of finding the mythical Mudville, so I would appreciate you querying your learned friends [at ads-l]. E.L. Thayer never pinpointed the place, but he grew up in central Massachusetts and some in these parts are convinced it is here." A definitive answer might be available from the Massachusetts Historical Society (I'll check the address tomorrow).... Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu Maybe there is or maybe there isn't an original Mudville -- if there is, it's hard to imagine this wouldn't have been written about already, somewhere. But perhaps germane are various longstanding figurative uses of mud, incl. "one's name is mud/Mud," which OED2 cites from as early as 1823 (which scotches that hornetookian speculation one sometimes hears, in accordance with which the phrase derives from the name of the doctor who treated Booth after the Lincoln assassination). OED2 mud n. meaning 3 has some semantic analyses of the origin of "one's name is mud." OED2 mud n. also deals with other locutions in which "mud" is used figuratively in negative ways. Perhaps Thayer chose a fictional name to make the poem more generic, rather than attaching it to a particular place or team. But only research can say. By the late-19C the Post Office was however forcing various shall-we-say colorfully-named US localities to change to more genteel monikers. If there was anyone who ever named a town Mudville, it may therefore be that their onomatsic efforts wold have been undone before the time the poem was written (1880s or 90s as I recall). I just looked it up -- the poem was originally publd. in the Hearst newspaper in San Fran in 1888 (he and Hearst were friends from Harvard days). There's a very interesting brief bio of Thayer at: http://www.clark.net/pub/cosmic/thayer.html He graduated with high honors in Philosophy, was a fellow student of Santayana's and a pupil of Wm James, and also edited the Harvard Lampoon. He's known for this one poem, written when he was about 25. But no one ever said life isn't strange.... Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 15:22:18 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: 'Mudville" Good luck in your search for Mudville, Jerry. Here's mud 'n your eye. Maybe 'Mudville' just just refers to the dirt of the ball park, or sandlots, etc. DMLance ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Dec 1997 to 14 Dec 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 14 Dec 1997 to 15 Dec 1997 There are 12 messages totalling 598 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. ADS & ANS--the "hits" numbers 2. Craps; Shindig 3. "Stick a fork in --, he's done" 4. 'Mudville" (5) 5. MA questionnaire by a Polish student 6. Poker; Jew; Pimp; White House; Java; Johnny Cake; Salt River; at al. (2) 7. "Java" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:46:49 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: ADS & ANS--the "hits" numbers O. K., I said that AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH ONLINE would have 50,000-100,000 hits if properly produced and advertised. The goals are to increase membership and to create a better product, without losing too much money. Would 5,000 hits and 100 new members be successful? To be honest, no one really knows how many new members we'll get until we try. As an example of what has to change, here are the news "hits" using Newspaper Abstracts, Periodical Abstracts, and the New York Times. AMERICAN NAME SOCIETY (Periodical Abstracts) 1986-1989 0 1990-1991 0 1992 0 1993 0 1994 0 1995 0 1996 0 1997 (-Oct) 0 TOTAL=0 hits (Newspaper Abstracts) 1994 0 1995 0 1996-Jul97 0 TOTAL=0 hits (New York Times) 1993 1 1994 1 1995 0 1996 0 1997 (-Oct) 0 TOTAL=2 hits The two hits were a Leonard Ashley quote on African-American naming and Margaret Bryant's obituary. That's all! AMERICAN DIALECT SOCIETY (Periodical Abstracts) 1986-1989 0 1990-1991 1 1992 0 1993 3 1994 0 1995 0 1996 0 1997 (-Oct) 0 TOTAL=4 hits (Newspaper Abstracts) 1994 0 1995 0 1996-Jul97 0 TOTAL=0 hits (New York Times) 1993 0 1994 1 1995 1 1996 0 1997 (-Oct) 1 TOTAL=3 hits William Safire's "On Language" column was responsible for the three hits over these five years. GRAND TOTAL OF HITS for "American Name Society" and "American Dialect Society" searching Periodical Abstracts, Newspaper Abstracts, and the New York Times from 1986-1997====9. NINE HITS! Think about that!! Let's try some other organizations. The word is mightier than the sword, right? NATIONAL RIFLE ASSOCIATION (Periodical Abstracts) 1986-1997 823 hits (Newspaper Abstracts) 1994-1997 497 hits (New York Times) 1993-1997 628 hits Trying two other organizations: AMERICAN MEDICAL ASSOCIATION (Periodical Abstracts) 1986-1997 15,812 hits (Newspaper Abstracts) 1994-1997 627 hits (New York Times) 1993-1997 1,016 hits AMERICAN BAR ASSOCIATION (Periodical Abstracts) 1986-1997 933 hits (Newspaper Abstracts) 1994-1997 127 hits (New York Times) 1993-1997 336 hits Let's look at what we cover: SLANG (Periodical Abstracts) 1986-1997 374 hits (0 ADS hits during this period) (Newspaper Abstracts) 1994-1997 195 hits (0 ADS hits during this period) (New York Times) 1993-1997 628 hits (3 ADS hits during this period) EBONICS (Periodical Abstracts) 1996-1997 65 hits (0 ADS hits during this period) (Newspaper Abstracts) 1996-1997 138 hits (0 ADS hits during this period) (New York Times) 1996-1997 60 hits (1 unrelated ADS hit during this period) The results are tragic. If we had had AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH ONLINE, the press would have quoted maybe Dennis Baron on "Ebonics" and David Shulman on "paparazzi." One thing's for sure--they're not turning to AMERICAN SPEECH. And the 50-year-old American Name Society is not even on the radar screen! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 01:47:17 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Craps; Shindig Here are two major antedates ("craps" and "shindig") I found today on my search for--ah, well--Canuck. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- CRAPS OED has 1843. This is from the New York Daily Express, 9 July 1842, pg. 1, col. 3: A TAX ON GAMBLING.--At the First Municipality Council an ordinance was passed, imposing a tax or license of $2000 per annum on the keepers of all games of _Craps_, and $3000 on all games of _Keno_, within the municipality. It provides a fine of $1000 a day on the parties for their neglect to take out such licenses. (Seems high, but I can't read a decimal point here--ed.) A section was offered for the prevention of young men, under twenty-one years of age, entering these gambling rooms under penalty of a fine of $25 on the keepers of the game.--N. O. Picayune. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- SHINDIG OED has 1859. AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS has "shindig" as the word-of-the- year for 1857. This (POOR ORIGINAL COPY!) is from the New York Daily Express, 10 May 1842, pg. 2, col. 1: COURT OF GENERAL SESSIONS. Before Judges Nash and Lynch. The Court imposed a fine of $5 on each of four petit Jurors for non- attendance. TRIAL FOR ASSAULT AND BATTERY.--William Lambert, Gilbert Lambert, William Nash, and William McLaughlan, were put upon their trial on an indictment for an assault and battery on Robert Barnard alleged to have been committed on the 13th of December last whilst attending a dance, or as one of the witnesses termed it a _shin dig_ held at the grog store of Wim. Maxwell, on the corner of 9th Avenue and 42d street. It appeared that a party of ladies and gentlemen had assembled at this place for the purposes of amusing themselves with dancing, raffling, &c., and that while a party was on the floor dancing and her mess came in and commenced singing Jim along Josey and Old Zip Coon, upon which a general fight ensued, in which the ladies participated plying their broom sticks and fire pokers with the (??). The result was that Barnard got the worst of it. His head was so badly bruised that for several weeks he was confined to the house. The testimony altogether was very conflicting, a part of the witnesses swore that it was a ticket ball, others swore that there were no tickets used on the occasion. The lady who gave the entertainment did not pretend to dignify it with any higher title than a raffle. The Court charged the Jury that if they found that Nash had done any thing more than what they considered necessary for self defence, they would find him guilty--against the other three there was no testimony. The Jury found a verdict of not guilty. (...) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 02:22:38 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "Stick a fork in --, he's done" The headline in the New York Post, 14 December 1997, pg. 89, is: STICK A FORK IN WITHERSPOON This refers to the heavyweight fighter Tim Witherspoon, who will soon turn 40 years old and may retire. No, the New York Post headline writers aren't sadists. (Then again--) They're referring to the phrase, "Stick a fork in (him, her, Witherspoon, the Dallas Cowboys, etc.), he's done." It refers to meat on the barbecue that's "done" or cooked. I found a song by Ian Tyson, Slick Fork Music, 1984, called "Rock Begins to Roll (Older Version)." The first line of this cowboy song is: "Don't you stick a fork in me cause I ain't done." I know it's the end of the semester for a lot of you. Do you have any other forks? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 09:58:58 -0500 From: Dan Marcus dmarcus0[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COUNSEL.COM Subject: Re: 'Mudville" I have a sportswriter friend who swears that Mudville is actually Stockton, California. I tend to trust him becuase he's one of those guys who knows EVERYTHING about baseball, but he also suffer's from sportswriter's disease (a.k.a. alcoholism). --Dan Marcus -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Date: Sunday, December 14, 1997 12:00 PM Subject: 'Mudville" I recently received a request from _Boston Globe_ writer Robert Smith for help in locating the original town Mudville (assuming it existed) that inspired E.L. Thayer in his poem "Casey at the Bat." I replied that the town is almost certainly mythical, like "Dogpatch" of the Li'l Abner comic strip. I quoted from Paul Dickson's baseball dictionary and also referred Mr. Smith to onomastics scholar Leonard Ashley. Mr. Smith replied: "I still hold hope of finding the mythical Mudville, so I would appreciate you querying your learned friends [at ads-l]. E.L. Thayer never pinpointed the place, but he grew up in central Massachusetts and some in these parts are convinced it is here." A definitive answer might be available from the Massachusetts Historical Society (I'll check the address tomorrow). Meanwhile, are any ads-l subscribers able to help out Mr. Smith by shedding any light at all on "Mudville?" --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:32:56 +0100 From: Mike FOX-ecki mlisecki[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FRIKO2.ONET.PL Subject: MA questionnaire by a Polish student SUBJECT: Indirect Speech Acts As A Way Of Expressing Politeness. A friend of mine is writing an MA thesis. For this purpose she needs some native speakers of English fill out a questionnaire. The questionnaire is the main part of her MA thesis. It is designed to check how native English speakers express politeness to their hearers using indirect speech acts. The If you would like to contribute to her work please send an empty message at mlisecki[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kki.net.pl with "ques" in a subject field and I shall mail the questionnaire to you. If you can pass on the questionnaire to anybody who might contribute to her work I am sure she would be glad as it is almost impossible to find any English native speakers at our university. At least, there are not enough of them to base her study on that. The questionnaire is aimed at anyone whose English is a native language. tafn mike ======================================================___ ___ _ _ Mike FOX-ecki mlisecki[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]priv2.onet.pl //__ // // \\// irc [lisu] mlisecki[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kki.net.pl // // // /\\ UIN [4324037] http://priv2.onet.pl/ka/mlisecki // //__// // \\ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 1997 19:07:21 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: Poker; Jew; Pimp; White House; Java; Johnny Cake; Salt River; at al. On journey cake: If the term originated in New England, it would be pronounced r-less, hence folk-shifted to "johnny." Since Philadelphia was r-pronouncing, the newspaper doesn't see (or jokingly pretends not to see?) that the new term has nothing to do with a man's name. DARE must have this explanation, but I don't have it at hand. On Bosting: I would assume this is a hypercorrection on the assumption that "Boston" was originally an -ing-ending word pronounced -in' by the locals. But would 'Bosting' really have been a folk pronunciation, or was the Phila. newspaper again drawing false conclusions (and even ironically, perhaps?)? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 20:06:49 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: Re: 'Mudville" I have a sportswriter friend who swears that Mudville is actually Stockton, California. I tend to trust him becuase he's one of those guys who knows EVERYTHING about baseball, but he also suffer's from sportswriter's disease (a.k.a. alcoholism). --Dan Marcus -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Date: Sunday, December 14, 1997 12:00 PM Subject: 'Mudville" I recently received a request from _Boston Globe_ writer Robert Smith for help in locating the original town Mudville (assuming it existed) that inspired E.L. Thayer in his poem "Casey at the Bat." I replied that the town is almost certainly mythical, like "Dogpatch" of the Li'l Abner comic strip. I quoted from Paul Dickson's baseball dictionary and also referred Mr. Smith to onomastics scholar Leonard Ashley. Mr. Smith replied: "I still hold hope of finding the mythical Mudville, so I would appreciate you querying your learned friends [at ads-l]. E.L. Thayer never pinpointed the place, but he grew up in central Massachusetts and some in these parts are convinced it is here." A definitive answer might be available from the Massachusetts Historical Society (I'll check the address tomorrow). Meanwhile, are any ads-l subscribers able to help out Mr. Smith by shedding any light at all on "Mudville?" --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:24:32 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: 'Mudville" Gerald Cohen wrote: I have a sportswriter friend who swears that Mudville is actually Stockton, California. This is not all that farfetched since Thayer was working for W.R. Hearst in San Francisco when he wrote the poem for the S.F. _Examiner_. However, Martin Gardner's _Annotated Casey at the Bat_ has the following: "In 1887, the year of the immortal game, Mudville was a farming village near the east border of Anderson County, Kansas, about sixty miles southeast of Topeka. It was on the south bank of Polecat Creek, seven miles west of where Centerville, in Linn County, is still located. Neither Mudville nor the creek exist today." I must admit, though, that the rest of Gardner's note makes me wonder if this account is serious. He continues "The poignant story of why and how Mudville faded from the map is told by Grantland Rice in his poem, 'Mudville's Fate.'" And then Gardner recounts the story of the poem as if it were historically accurate, even though it mentions Casey and his wife and 8 children. If anyone can find a map of Kansas circa 1887, perhaps Mudville will be on it. Alan B. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:21:15 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: 'Mudville" At 09:24 PM 12/15/97 -0500, you (Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU ) wrote: I have a sportswriter friend who swears that Mudville is actually Stockton, California. This is not all that farfetched since Thayer was working for W.R. Hearst in San Francisco when he wrote the poem for the S.F. _Examiner_. However, Martin Gardner's _Annotated Casey at the Bat_ has the following: "In 1887, the year of the immortal game, Mudville was a farming village near the east border of Anderson County, Kansas, about sixty miles southeast of Topeka. It was on the south bank of Polecat Creek, seven miles west of where Centerville, in Linn County, is still located. Neither Mudville nor the creek exist today." I must admit, though, that the rest of Gardner's note makes me wonder if this account is serious. He continues "The poignant story of why and how Mudville faded from the map is told by Grantland Rice in his poem, 'Mudville's Fate.'" And then Gardner recounts the story of the poem as if it were historically accurate, even though it mentions Casey and his wife and 8 children. If anyone can find a map of Kansas circa 1887, perhaps Mudville will be on it. I too would be somewhat skeptical, since this is the type of situation in which I have often seen the drive to identify a "real" place when it is deliberately generic and fictional. Is there anything about the poem in question that seems to demand a particular historical location? It's the story of a guy who thinks he's a big shot, and (acting cavalierly) strikes out at the big moment in the game. When did Thayer have information about or an association with Kansas? Anyway, there *is* a set of maps of the US in great detail as of 1895, and genealogical types have put them on the internet, though be warned that they are quite large and will take a minute or two longer than forever to download unless you have a fast modem. It is important not to rely on a modern atlas; names have changed a lot all over the country since then, as I know from several local regions with whose history I am somewhat familiar. For the 1895 US atlas go to: http://www.ismi.net/lcmigw/1895.htm and click on the box for Kansas. There's no Mudville in eastern Anderson County. All named locations in Kansas that are reflected in the 1895 atlas are listed, in alpha order, with information about them at. Try "M" at: http://www.ismi.net/lcmigw/atksm.htm There's no Mudville there, just a VERY small settlement Mudrow in Sherman Co. in the NW part of the state. Those who are interested in the real-Mudville theory might check the "M" page in the indexes for Massachusetts and Calif, and (for that matter) for all states that were in the union in 1895, to see if there is any town named Mudville anywhere. Not that if there is it necessrily has anything to do with the Thayer poem, but I'm willing to be convinced by evidence of course. In the days before asphalt almost every town was "Mudville", especially at certain times of the year. Has anyone tried looking for Lake Wobegon on a map? (No, it isn't Anoka, MN, even though there's lots of real-life-based material in Keillor's work by all accounts.) I'd suspect that "Where's the real Mudville?" is possibly the same kind of wrongly formed onomastic question. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 21:38:16 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: Re: "Java" First, thanks for the messages on "Mudville." I've forwarded them to Robert Smith of the _Boston Globe_ and will ask that he send me a copy of whatever he writes on the subject. If in fact he does so, I'll let you know what he says. In the forwarding of the messages I somehow inadvertently sent Dan Marcus' message back to ads-l. Sorry about the mishap. Now to "Java." Barry Popik has recently treated this word in a few ads-l messages, and I would like to add a footnote. An article in the German news magazine _Der Spiegel_, Nov. 4, 1996, p.243, contains an interview with the co-founder of Sun Microsystems, Scott McNealy, in which he tells how the computer language "Java" received its name. McNealy of course spoke in English, which _Spiegel_ translated into German. Here is the German version and then my translation of it: SPIEGEL: Wie sind Sie auf diesen merkw=FCrdigen Namen gekommen? (How did yo= u come up with this peculiar name?) MCNEALY: Ich glaube, wir haben sie so genannt, weil bei der Entwicklung irrsinnig viel Kaffee getrunken wurde. Au=DFerdem waren alle anderen gut klingenden Namen schon per Copyright gesch=FCtzt. (I believe we called it that because while we were developing it we drank a terrific amount of coffee. Besides, all other good-sounding names were already copyrighted.) --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 22:39:25 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: 'Mudville" As far as I can tell, Thayer had no connection to Kansas. He went from Massachusetts directly to San Francisco, then traveled around Europe reporting for Hearst, then settled in San Francisco and wrote "Casey at the Bat." Though Gardner's annotation is to the poem, the reference to "Centerville," which isn't mentioned in "Casey," makes me think he might be locating Mudville in Kansas to fit William Schuman's opera _The Mighty Casey_ rather than Thayer's original. Thayer denied that there was any real-life model for Casey, so there needn't be a real-life model for Mudville. Of course, he might have seen the name on a map of Kansas in the 1880's and thought it was funny and suitable. But I would agree that in all likelihood he made up the name as a generic description of a 19th-century American hick town that could be in the mid-West, New England, or California. It is, after all, "A Ballad of the Republic." Gregory {Greg} Downing wrote: At 09:24 PM 12/15/97 -0500, you (Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU ) wrote: However, Martin Gardner's _Annotated Casey at the Bat_ has the following: "In 1887, the year of the immortal game, Mudville was a farming village near the east border of Anderson County, Kansas, about sixty miles southeast of Topeka. It was on the south bank of Polecat Creek, seven miles west of where Centerville, in Linn County, is still located. Neither Mudville nor the creek exist today." I must admit, though, that the rest of Gardner's note makes me wonder if this account is serious. He continues "The poignant story of why and how Mudville faded from the map is told by Grantland Rice in his poem, 'Mudville's Fate.'" And then Gardner recounts the story of the poem as if it were historically accurate, even though it mentions Casey and his wife and 8 children. I too would be somewhat skeptical, since this is the type of situation in which I have often seen the drive to identify a "real" place when it is deliberately generic and fictional. Is there anything about the poem in question that seems to demand a particular historical location? It's the story of a guy who thinks he's a big shot, and (acting cavalierly) strikes out at the big moment in the game. When did Thayer have information about or an association with Kansas? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 1997 23:26:41 -0500 From: Laurence Horn laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Poker; Jew; Pimp; White House; Java; Johnny Cake; Salt River; at al. Beverly Flanagan writes, On journey cake: If the term originated in New England, it would be pronounced r-less, hence folk-shifted to "johnny." Since Philadelphia was r-pronouncing, the newspaper doesn't see (or jokingly pretends not to see?) that the new term has nothing to do with a man's name. DARE must have this explanation, but I don't have it at hand. I'm not sure which etymology Barry was earlier presupposing, nor do I have a DARE on me as I write, but my understanding has always been that "journey cake" was a second-order folk-etymology. While "johnny cake" derives--so I've read--from a Native American (Narragansett?) term local to Rhode Island that 'ought' to have come out something like "jonakin", "journey cake" is itself a motivated reconstruction of johnny cake. Not that different a history from, say, "Welsh rarebit" as a motivated reconstruction of the historically correct "Welsh rabbit", at least insofar as the "folk" involved in each case aren't really the FOLK per se, but a prescriptivist who claims to know the true story and of course botches it all up--or so I'd like to believe. Is this wrong? Is there (contra my sources) a real "journey cake" antedating the first "jo(h)nnycake"? Larry, writing from Connecticut (not too far from johnny cake country) ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Dec 1997 to 15 Dec 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 15 Dec 1997 to 16 Dec 1997 There are 18 messages totalling 535 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. The Raven 2. Sand Nigger 3. The ephemeral Mudville (2) 4. "sand nigger" + similar (2) 5. sportswriters' disease (2) 6. RE Re: sportswriters' disease (2) 7. American Tongues (again) 8. sand nigger (2) 9. P.S. (Re dialect videos) (3) 10. "Mudville" Update (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:13:25 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: The Raven Edgar Allan Poe's "The Raven" is perhaps the most celebrated American poem. It's long been known that Poe "copied" or "borrowed" from other works. I've identified two previously unknown pre-Poe "Raven" ravens. I found the second, more important one today. A different poem called "The Raven" appeared in the February 1839 (I may have the month wrong) CORSAIR. Poe probably read the CORSAIR, because the editor was his friend, N. P. Willis. Willis later edited the New York Mirror, where Poe's "The Raven" was printed on 29 January 1845. I think Poe's vasted overrated now (a "language maven" titled a book after the poem, and there's even a football team called the Baltimore Ravens!), but I've been to Poe homes in Richmond, Baltimore (where he's buried), and the Bronx. A few years ago, I sent the CORSAIR "Raven" to Bronx Community College Poe scholar Burton Pollin. He hadn't heard of the poem before, but he didn't think that the vastly different "Raven" had much influence. I was going through the Public Ledger of Philadelphia today when--just a minute, something just flew in. THE RAVEN: Nevermore! POPIK: You crap on my bust of Pallas Athena and I'll break your bones! This is from the Public Ledger, 28 February 1843, pg. 2, col. 3: _The Black Raven_, as produced now at the Walnut street Theatre, is a decided improvement upon the former performances. Russell is a very nimble fellow, a good dancer, and plays his part well. Miss Wallace, as Columbine, does excellently, and her dancing is much admired. Davenport plays the part of the Old Roue with much credit; and Barnes, the clown, grows more comical in his tricks at every performance. It draws well, and is worth seeing. THE RAVEN: Nevermore! POPIK: Don't you say anything else? THE RAVEN: Butter! POPIK: Butter? THE RAVEN: Parkay! POPIK: Parkay is margarine! THE RAVEN: Omnipoint! Omnipoint! In 1839, Poe became coeditor of Burton's Gentlemen's Magazine in Philadelphia. In 1843, his story "The Gold Bug" won a prize of $100 from the Philadelphia DOLLAR NEWSPAPER. I'm reading this from a book (which I bought in Richmond) edited by Roscoe Brown Fisher, THE JAMES CARLING ILLUSTRATIONS OF EDGAR ALLAN POE'S "THE RAVEN" (1982). Poe left Philadelphia for New York City in April 1843. Had Poe seen _The Black Raven_ at the Walnut Street Theatre? What was that production about, anyway? I'll have to do some more checking--just a minute! I hear a gentle rapping, rapping, as if some visitor was tapping, tapping at my chamber door. LENORE: Hello, my name's Lenore, and I was looking for my--there he is!! THE RAVEN: Nevermore! I gotta stick to Henry Wadsworth Longfellow poems. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 03:14:49 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Sand Nigger Sorry about the title, but that's what this posting's about. I was at NYU recently, and I saw these protesters. This is from today's New York Post, 16 December 1997, "Distorting D'Souza," pg. 36, col. 2: The protesters' major obsession was (Dinesh) D'Souza's book, "The End of Racism," in which he attacked the prevailing liberal orthodoxy on racial issues. These self-important race warriors didn't hesitate to brand D'Souza--who is of Indian ancestry--a "sand nigger." This is certainly a wicked word, but it's not in Hugh Rawson's 1989 book. Anne H. Soukhanov's new SPEAKING FREELY implies that the term originated during the Gulf War. A Usenet check unfortunately shows a bunch of hits. One poster defined "sand nigger" as "Arab." This is the first time I've heard it applied to someone of Indian descent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 09:38:15 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: The ephemeral Mudville Alan Baragona just wrote, As far as I can tell, Thayer had no connection to Kansas. He went from Massachusetts directly to San Francisco, then traveled around Europe reporting for Hearst, then settled in San Francisco and wrote "Casey at the Bat." Though Gardner's annotation is to the poem, the reference to "Centerville," which isn't mentioned in "Casey," makes me think he might be locating Mudville in Kansas to fit William Schuman's opera _The Mighty Casey_ rather than Thayer's original. Thayer denied that there was any real-life model for Casey, so there needn't be a real-life model for Mudville. Of course, he might have seen the name on a map of Kansas in the 1880's and thought it was funny and suitable. But I would agree that in all likelihood he made up the name as a generic description of a 19th-century American hick town that could be in the mid-West, New England, or California. It is, after all, "A Ballad of the Republic." I suspect we really are trying too hard. This quest has all the earmarks of the perennial dispute on alt.tv.simpsons about which Springfield the writers of "The Simpsons" are "really" situating the weekly cartoon show in; every week or so various posters chime in with new clues based on that week's episode. I would imagine that similarly there is no true Mudville per se--as Alan suggests, a general rather than specific label. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:18:26 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: "sand nigger" + similar We do have some examples of _sand nigger_ 'dark-skinned native of a land believed to have deserts' from before the Gulf War, but not too much before; I think mid-1970s is our earliest. For terms like this we do see a lot of confusion about where people are actually from. We don't have any _sand nigger_ examples referring to Indians (aside from Barry's), but we do have _camel jockey_ in that sense; it normally refers to Arabs. We also have occasional examples of _raghead_ in equally broad use. Most strikingly we just got in a cite for _Kurd_ 'an Arab', in the sentence 'the Kurds at the 7-11 wouldn't let me buy any beer'. (The student had defined it as 'an Arabian [sic]', so there's no chance it was literal.) In short I wouldn't expect too much consistency or realism from this type of ethnic epithet. Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:35:52 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: sportswriters' disease I was reminded by the afterthought to Dan's message that several professions take (covert) pride in the fact that theirs is the hardest drinking (or at least heavy tippling). I had not heard 'sportwriters' disease' before, but I am aware of 'painters' colic' (for the need to 'cut' the turpentine, etc... fumes that build up in one's throat after a hard day with a brush). Any others? dInIs I have a sportswriter friend who swears that Mudville is actually Stockton, California. I tend to trust him becuase he's one of those guys who knows EVERYTHING about baseball, but he also suffer's from sportswriter's disease (a.k.a. alcoholism). --Dan Marcus -----Original Message----- From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU Date: Sunday, December 14, 1997 12:00 PM Subject: 'Mudville" I recently received a request from _Boston Globe_ writer Robert Smith for help in locating the original town Mudville (assuming it existed) that inspired E.L. Thayer in his poem "Casey at the Bat." I replied that the town is almost certainly mythical, like "Dogpatch" of the Li'l Abner comic strip. I quoted from Paul Dickson's baseball dictionary and also referred Mr. Smith to onomastics scholar Leonard Ashley. Mr. Smith replied: "I still hold hope of finding the mythical Mudville, so I would appreciate you querying your learned friends [at ads-l]. E.L. Thayer never pinpointed the place, but he grew up in central Massachusetts and some in these parts are convinced it is here." A definitive answer might be available from the Massachusetts Historical Society (I'll check the address tomorrow). Meanwhile, are any ads-l subscribers able to help out Mr. Smith by shedding any light at all on "Mudville?" --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:38:19 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: The ephemeral Mudville At 09:38 AM 12/16/97 EST, you wrote: I suspect we really are trying too hard. This quest has all the earmarks of the perennial dispute on alt.tv.simpsons about which Springfield the writers of "The Simpsons" are "really" situating the weekly cartoon show in; every week or so various posters chime in with new clues based on that week's episode. I would imagine that similarly there is no true Mudville per se--as Alan suggests, a general rather than specific label. --Larry Right -- but I'm not sure who the "we" would be since I don't know that anyone on this list is supporting the idea there is a "real" Mudville. I believe that several people not on this list favor certain hypotheses: Robert Smith of the Boston Globe as cited by Gerald Cohen supports Mass.; a sportswriter friend anonymously cited by Gerald Cohen supports Stockton, CA; and Martin Gardner's _Annotated Casey_ as cited by Alan Baragona supports (or at least reports) a putative Mudville in Kansas. My sense (absent really strong proof to the contrary) would be that "Mudville" is intentionally general and fictional, like "Lake Wobegon" -- or "Springfield," another deliberately generic name (wish I'd thought of that one). Such names are chosen either for how common they are (Springfield) or for how over-the-top they are (who would ever name a place "Lake Wobegon" in real life?). Mudville may in fact be in the latter category: there may have been people who referred to some town or another sarcastically as Mudville, but I don't know that it was ever a formal town-name. Somebody who was interested in that would have to check the 1895 (or some other later-19th cent.) atlas. Of course, there *were* some fairly outrageous local names before the Post Office got on people's cases in the late 19th cent. -- e.g., Hell Town, VA was supposedly renamed Temperanceville, and lots of cases like that (some probably historically accurate, and others not). Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:49:17 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: "sand nigger" + similar At 10:18 AM 12/16/97 -0500, you (Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM ) wrote: For terms like this we do see a lot of confusion about where people are actually from. We don't have any _sand nigger_ examples referring to Indians (aside from Barry's), I suppose we can't assume that the people using the epithets were actually using them "properly". (I saw the same page-one story Barry P. did in the NYU student paper, _The Washington Square News_.) Their intention was to annoy the speaker and those who wanted to hear him, and logical consistency may not have been their highest priority. I'm not too clear on why they think using such an epithet supports their argument that the speaker is racist and they the protesters are opposed to such racism. Again, the main priority in this case seems to have been to give maximal annoyance to the target of the epithet rather than to exhibit logical consistency. We also have occasional examples of _raghead_ in equally broad use. Not forgetting the "immortal" towelhead, which I have heard on occasion in NY City for 15 years or more, though I'd imagine it goes further back than that. In short I wouldn't expect too much consistency or realism from this type of ethnic epithet. Right. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 12:27:25 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: RE Re: sportswriters' disease Journalists, of course, lay a claim to alcoholism as the a requirement of the profession, and for good reason, I think. When I was still a small-time journalist, my peers and I went to a journalism conference in Baton Rouge. We were met in the hotel lobby by six happily drunk Pulitzer Prize winners, and I've often thought of that as typical since. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:11:50 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: American Tongues (again) Could someone remind me where the "American Tongues" (unexpurgated version) is available for purchase, who produced it, and what its approximate cost is? A colleague and I are applying for funds for materials in connection with a new Dialects of English course and we need to include the items we're planning to use. (If there's another video, other than the Searchinger series I already have on tape, that you would recommend, that would also be useful to know.) Thanks. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:23:59 +0000 From: Jim Rader jrader[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]M-W.COM Subject: Re: sand nigger We have only a handful of post-Gulf War cites for sand nigger , though Nexis has (naturally) more data. The earliest cite I located was from the 7/28/86 issue of The New Republic . Where the reference is specified, it usually refers to an Arab (a vague enough term in itself), though not surprisingly the people using this term are not strong on geography: it is quoted in reference to an Iranian-American (San Diego Union-Tribune 8/24/93), a person of Armenian descent (Automotive News 8/8/94), and the "East Indian" customers of a Nissan dealership (Denver Post 8-5-94). Sand nigger and camel jockey got some publicity when Terrel Bell, a Reagan-era secretary of education, published a book in 1987 claiming that White House staffers routinely used these epithets. The most interesting cite was from USA Today (3/21/90): Chippewa Indians in northern Wisconsin report that white locals refer to them as "sand niggers" and "timber niggers." Is this a recycling of the Middle Eastern slur or something of independent lineage? Synynoms offered, in addition to camel jockey , are raghead (already recorded in Dialect Notes in 1921), rughead , and towelhead . Jim Rader ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 13:38:56 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: sportswriters' disease DInIs, in the old days the professors needed to cut the chalk dust with some potable solvent, but there is no such excuse these days, right? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 10:39:15 -0800 From: "A. Maberry" maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: sand nigger On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Jim Rader wrote: Synynoms offered, in addition to camel jockey , are raghead (already recorded in Dialect Notes in 1921), rughead , and towelhead . I remember hearing the term "rug pilot". I think the first time was in the 1970's (probably in some connection with the 1973 war). Allen maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]u.washington.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:34:46 EST From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: P.S. (Re dialect videos) I confirmed that American Tongues is indeed orderable via New American Media's distributor (800 343-5540 if anyone's interested) for the surprisingly robust price of $285. Still hoping to find a discount distributor, but maybe that doesn't exist. On non-U.S. dialects, can anyone vouch for (or against) the reliability and usefulness of that "Story of English" series they broadcast on PBS several years back? Larry ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 14:48:17 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: RE Re: sportswriters' disease Grant Barrett wrote: Journalists, of course, lay a claim to alcoholism as the a requirement of the profession, and for good reason, I think. When I was still a small-time journalist, my peers and I went to a journalism conference in Baton Rouge. We were met in the hotel lobby by six happily drunk Pulitzer Prize winners, and I've often thought of that as typical since. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com There's a story that Flann O'Brien, the great Irish comic novelist, was fired from his job as a civil servant for alcoholism, but sued to get his pension back on the grounds that alcoholism is an occupational hazard of working for the Irish Civil Service. He reportedly won. I'd be willing to bet there are a lot of colorful Irish words and phrases, euphemistic and otherwise, for heavy drinking and drinkers. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 19:46:12 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: "Mudville" Update Two developments: 1) Maybe there was a real Mudville after all. I called the very helpful staff at the Western Historical Manuscript Collection (573-882-6028) and asked if the extensive Peter Tamony Collection of Americanisms housed there has anything about "Mudville." Two relevant items are there: a) _San Francisco Examiner_, May 20, 1979, p.8/2-5, "The Original Mudville," column by Art Rosenbaum. b) _San Francisco Examiner_, June 3, 1979, p.8/2-4, "Mudville Revisited," column by Art Rosenbaum. Reportedly these two articles point to Stockton, California (formerly nicknamed Mudville) as the original Mudville. The two articles (based on the research of others) are being mailed to me, and I'll pass along any information they contain. 2) Following Barry Popik's suggestion I telephoned SABR (Society for American Baseball Research---216-575-0500). Staff member John Zajc pointed out an important work: _Ernest Thayer's "Casey At The Bat_," by Jim Moore and Natalie Vermilyea (McFarland Press, 1994). Its subtitle is "Background and Characters of Baseball's Most Famous Poem." It is 300+ pages with a bibliography, and so this work is probably the reliable source we're looking for. I've ordered it via interlibrary loan. My thanks go to the helpful staff members of WHMC and SABR and to the ADS-L members who sent along their thoughts on "Mudville." I'll let you know the results. --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:00:07 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: P.S. (Re dialect videos) Larry, I don't use much of _The Story of English_ except for parts of the one on Black English and the very nice 9th video on pidgins and creoles (and Indian English). But I do use two audiotapes that cover a wide range of English dialects: One accompanies Hughes and Trudgill's 3rd ed. of _English Accents and Dialects_, Arnold 1996 (but can be purchased separately too, I presume)--ISBN 0 340 614463. It's limited to the British Isles, including Wales, Scotland, and No. Ireland (but not So. Ireland). The other is called _In a Manner of Speaking: English Accents_, made for BBC English by J.C. Wells; it includes RP, 'General American,' No. and So. England, Cockney, Wales, and Scotland on one side, and, on the other side, more detail on Gen. Amer., plus NYC (Brooklyn, in this case), Southern U.S., Canada, West Indies, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, India, Nigeria, and both No. and So. Ireland (therefore better, obviously!). This is available in your neck of the woods, from Audio-Forum, On-the-Green, Guilford, CT 06437. I know there's a fairly new video on Canadian English, too, but I can't locate the ad for it now. Hope this helps. Beverly Flanigan* Ohio University *No relation to Flann of the drinking problem. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:30:13 -0500 From: Beverly Flanigan FLANIGAN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: P.S. (Re dialect videos) I forgot to mention two more series of audiotapes that shouldn't be missed: One accompanies Shopen and Williams' _Standards and Dialects in English_ (year?), chapters 7 & 8; it includes lengthy excerpts from the early CAL tapes of Black English-speaking kids and is esp. good in its representation of style-shifting by the kids. It also has upper-class NYC speech (eschewed by Labov) and two wonderful stories told by older Appalachian English speakers (and authentic, according to my regional students). The second series is of course the OSU Language Files tapes, esp. (for your course) three: one on varied regional pronunciations, a matched guise test of black and white varieties of Am.Eng., and a collection of Gullah ("Uncle Remus") tales (with "sounding" examples on the back). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 21:57:09 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: "Mudville" Update At 07:46 PM 12/16/97 -0500, you wrote: Reportedly these two articles point to Stockton, California (formerly nicknamed Mudville) as the original Mudville. The two articles (based on the research of others) are being mailed to me, and I'll pass along any information they contain. Stockton is a fairly common name throughout the US in the 19th cent. for a town to which cattle were driven for sale or slaughter or trans-shipment. I've been in a couple of them, and a couple of my wife's relatives lived in one. My guess from my experience is that they are usually pretty muddy, dusty, pedestrian (hoofestrian?) places that might well get nicknamed "mudville." Good luck, though I guess the caveats given on the name are still not completely empty. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Dec 1997 to 16 Dec 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 16 Dec 1997 to 17 Dec 1997 There are 7 messages totalling 166 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. computer clutter 2. sportswriters' disease 3. Sand Nigger 4. sand nigger 5. Mudville 6. towelhead 7. (Washington) Monumental Liar ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:35:01 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: computer clutter When I see something I like on one of the newsgroups I read at home I download it to my home computer; same for mail that I want to save, whether from a list or individual. The way I do it results in the files all landing in a folder (aka subdirectory) called Downloads, from which I move them to the appropriate places. That's the theory, anyway. The Downloads folder recently checked out at several MB, I don't remember just how many. So last night I sat down to it and started quick-scanning through it, opening each file and deciding either to trash it or to keep it; if keeping, clean it up (strip out dozens of excess lines of header and footer), then either put it directly in its destination location or move it to "Downloads to Keep", which are mostly in a single category (filk*), and which I WILL have to remember to file appropriately. I didn't finish it -- there's still a LOT in the Downloads folder -- but I completely emptied out the old subfolder titled "Before April 1997". I had stuff a year and a half old there, most of it either of no value anymore, or corrupted (system crash in June), or good for a laugh and then OUT. I don't know just how much went out, because I emptied the Trash several times and didn't write down the amounts emptied, but I must have dumped nearly two meg. Something to feel good about :-)\ . There's a lot more to do, but that's an accomplishment. * Musical (though some disagree ;-)\ ), and usually related to fantasy or science fiction. See my page http://world.std.com/~mam/filk.html Mark A. Mandel : Senior Linguist : mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dragonsys.com Dragon Systems, Inc. : speech recognition : +1 617 965-5200 320 Nevada St., Newton, MA 02160, USA : http://www.dragonsys.com/ Personal home page: http://world.std.com/~mam/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:19:33 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Re: sportswriters' disease Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM writes: DInIs, in the old days the professors needed to cut the chalk dust with some potable solvent, but there is no such excuse these days, right? Oh, yeah? You think the fumes from these whiteboard and overhead markers sit easy in the throat? -- Mark A. "not a professor but sometimes mistaken for one" Mandel ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 11:46:35 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Re: Sand Nigger Sorry about the title, but that's what this posting's about. ... Anne H. Soukhanov's new SPEAKING FREELY implies that the term originated during the Gulf War. A Usenet check unfortunately shows a bunch of hits. One poster defined "sand nigger" as "Arab." This is the first time I've heard it applied to someone of Indian descent. I'm sure it goes back before Desert Storm. I've heard the term, as well as 'raghead', for both Arabs and Iranians in military slang. My younger brother, who was stationed in Iran in the late 1960s, used the term 'raghead' and I'm pretty sure he mentioned the other term as being used by others but didn't use it himself. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 10:16:30 PST From: barbara harris GRADMA[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UVVM.UVIC.CA Subject: Re: sand nigger Allen Mayberry mentions "rug pilot"; I first encountered "rug rider" when I came out to B.C. in the early 1960's. Now we're all so p.c. that nobody would dare use it in public. The same person who introduced me to "rug rider" also used "ankle biters" to refer to her and her friends' small children. Both terms were used quite commonly by the yuppies of the time, at least in Victoria and, especially, Vancouver. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 12:21:50 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: Mudville F Y I : Geographic Names Information System Query Results MUDVILLE ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- 7 Feature records have been selected from GNIS. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Feature Name - St - County - Type - Lat Long - USGS 7.5' Map Name Mudville - LA - Grant - pop place - 314246N 0922346W - Mudville Mudville (historical) - SC - Berkeley - pop place - 331616N 0801050W - Cross Mudville School (historical) - SC Berkeley - school - 331231N 0801528W - Pringletown Mudville - TN Shelby - pop place - 352239N 0894418W - Brighton Pleasant Union Church - TN - Shelby - church - 352244N 0894419W - Brighton Mudville - TX- Brazos - pop place - 304049N 0963303W - Mumford ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- | GNIS Query Form | Mapping Information | ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- URL: http://mapping.usgs.gov/www/gnis/GNISQuery Maintainer: gnis_manager[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]usgs.gov Last modified: 15:09:38 Wed 24 Sep 1997 dlg DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 17:35:07 EST From: CLAndrus CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: towelhead About 10 years ago, many of the retail fabric stores in the fabric district (W. 38-40th streets in NYC) began to change over to Indian and Bangladesh immigrant ownership...many of the Indians were Sirds (Sikhs) who wear turbans. As the ownership changed and the buying tastes of newer populations changed, the types of fabrics changed...glitzier, lots of gold-thread stuff, wilder prints, etc. Not much of the old "classic" stuff. So I began to hear some women friends who used to shop there say they didn't go down there anymore because all the fabrics were "towelhead taste." I haven't heard it used lately because we have so many Sikhs now in NYC (loads of cabdrivers, newsstand owners, etc.) that everyone knows the term "Sikh" now. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Dec 1997 16:27:28 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: (Washington) Monumental Liar "Gravegate" is over, and it seem that Larry Lawrence was a liar, a monumental liar. I don't have the OED in front of me, but a "monumental liar" is much worse than your garden variety of liar liar. It's really hard to believe that there are any liars in Washington, D. C. After all, everyone knows that George Washington chopped down a cherry tree and had to tell the truth, right? This "monumental liar" is from the Washington Post, 23 May 1887 (the Washington Monument officially opened to the public in 1888), pg. 4, col. 2: "Yes, I saw these stories. There's not a word of truth in one of them. Newspaper Row harbors two or three colossal fabricators, and THE POST hires one reporter who does nothing but hunt down their yarns. The attack on the Assistant Secretary of State was invented by the chief of these--a monumental liar--in fact, a Washington-Monumental liar, the largest in the world, 555 feet in the clear. Of course we don't print these lies as facts." ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Dec 1997 to 17 Dec 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 17 Dec 1997 to 18 Dec 1997 There are 4 messages totalling 79 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. White Niggers (2) 2. The ephemeral Mudville 3. Oops. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 02:32:22 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: White Niggers While I'm on the subject... "Wiggers" is the term for "white niggers"--white people who want to live a black lifestyle. "Sand nigger" probably won't become "snigger" anytime soon, though. "White nigger"--one of those oxymorons like "military intelligence"--is not new. This is from the New-York American, Correspondence of R. M. T. H. from Wahsington, D. C., 22 February 1843, pg. 2, col. 3: Mr. Wood evidently adopts the favorite idea on the Globe, that the working men of the North, are mere slaves, without the name,--"white niggers" indeed. He knows the character of his constituents. "Mr. Wood" is New York Representative Fernando Wood. "The Globe" published from Washington--I haven't gone through it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 08:01:00 -0500 From: David Bergdahl bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: White Niggers On Thu, 18 Dec 1997, Bapopik wrote: While I'm on the subject... "Wiggers" is the term for "white niggers"--white people who want to live a black lifestyle. "Sand nigger" probably won't become "snigger" anytime soon, though. How is this related to "wig out"? I've met the term in novels by AA authors written in the 70's and early 80's. I don't know if it's still current. ===================================================================== == David Bergdahl Ellis Hall 114c Ohio University / Athens Associate Prof/English tel: (740) 593-2783 fax: (740) 593-2818 bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]oak.cats.ohiou.edu http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl ===================================================================== == ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 10:37:53 -0800 From: "Thomas L. Clark" tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Re: The ephemeral Mudville On Tue, 16 Dec 1997, Larry Horn wrote: I suspect we really are trying too hard. This quest has all the earmarks of the perennial dispute on alt.tv.simpsons about which Springfield the writers of "The Simpsons" are "really" situating the weekly cartoon show in; every week or so various posters chime in with new clues based on that week's episode. I would imagine that similarly there is no true Mudville per se--as Alan suggests, a general rather than specific label. --Larry Or Cicely, AK (Northern Exposure). Tom Clark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 18 Dec 1997 12:53:18 -0500 From: Mark Mandel Mark[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]DRAGONSYS.COM Subject: Oops. I apologize to the readers of ADS-L for going wildly off-topic with my previous post, titled "Computer Clutter". I intended it for a different mailing list entirely. -- Mark A. Mandel ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Dec 1997 to 18 Dec 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 18 Dec 1997 to 19 Dec 1997 There are 9 messages totalling 605 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Fizzling Out 2. Reconsidering ADS publication arrangements (3) 3. Nominate Words of the Year 1997 4. ADS-L Archive Search Revised 5. Holiday riddle 6. Un-subcribe 7. "Mudville" article #1 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 02:20:16 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Fizzling Out 1997 is fizzling out. You can almost stick a fork in it. AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS has "peter out" as the word-of-the-year for 1854. RHHDAS copies the DA and has 1846 and 1847 for "fizzle" and 1861 for "fizzle-out." This is from the New-York American, 13 June 1844, pg. 2, col. 2: "FIZZLING OUT."--We have frequently met with these words, but never saw their meaning so satisfactorily explained as they were by Mr. Schenck, of Ohio, at the recent Whig meeting at Baltimore. In referring to the Loco National Convention, he said they had been in session three days, and fizzled and fizzled until they had completely fizzled out. To give an idea of what was meant by the term fizzled in his country, he would tell the anecdote whence it received its origin. There was a blacksmith in Ohio who had a reputation of being a good sort of a fellow, and a cheap workman. A neighbor of his had a piece of iron, which he desired wrought up into some tangible, useful shape, and he asked the blacksmith what could be made of it. The smith replied he was of opinion that it would make a plough- share, and went to work so to transform it. In this, however, he failed, but came to the conclusion that it would make an axe,--he accordingly tried to make that kind of instrument, but was in like manner unsuccessful. I am of the opinion, said the smith, failing the first two attempts, that it will make a pick-axe, and he tried so to form it, but again failed. Then, said he, there can be no mistake in its making a simple wedge,--he went to work to make that, but the attempt also failed. The owner of the iron by this time grew impatient, and in rather an agitated manner, whilst the iron was still hot, eagerly inquired of the smith, "Then what the d---l will it make?"--"Why, sir," was the reply--at the same time plunging the hot iron into the slack- tub--"you see it will make a _fiz_." Such was the case with the late harmonious Locofoco Convention. Material had been given them out of which to nominate candidates for President and Vice President. They tried to work it up in almost every shape, but finally, after repeated failures, plunged it into their peculiar political slack-tub, and made only a glorious fiz. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:07:14 EST From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Reconsidering ADS publication arrangements At the ADS Executive Council meeting Friday morning, January 9, we will have real business to transact: considering the future arrangements for our publications and for the management of our society. Here is the report from the hard-working ad hoc committee. The report does *not* include details of the specific proposals from the publishers, partly because the publishers may well revise their proposals. But all details will be on the table at the Council meeting. As usual, the January 9 meeting (8 am!) will be open to all ADS members. If more people attend than usual, we may need a bigger room. So - if you are not a Council member but are planning to attend, please let me know in advance (e- mail to AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com). Meanwhile, comments on this report are appropriate for ADS-L, as are questions. We need everyone's best thinking! - Allan Metcalf, executive secretary ------------------------------------------ DATE: 12/16/97 TO: ADS Executive Council FROM: The Ad Hoc Publications Committee RE: Report of the Meeting Held in Raleigh, NC, December 6, 1997 Members Present: Ronald R. Butters, Charles Carson, Connie Eble, William Kretzschmar, Walt Wolfram (recorder) Members Absent: Larry Davis, Allan Metcalf Summary of Meeting: The committee was charged to review the current publication status of American Speech (AS hereafter) and PADS. This review process included an examination of the current contract with the University of Alabama Press as well as the consideration of proposals for publishing AS and PADS from other journal publishers. Contacts by committee members with agents from different publishers resulted in the submission of five formal proposals for publishing AS and PADS: Blackwell, Duke University Press, John Benjamins, Kluwer, and the University of Alabama Press. The committee reviewed the current state of AS and PADS publications with the University of Alabama Press. Although the University of Alabama Press publishes AS and PADS at a reasonable base cost to the American Dialect Society (ADS hereafter), the mechanical production of the journal is antiquated (for example, the editor is required to submit camera-ready hard copy to the University of Alabama Press). It was further noted that the current publication arrangement with the University of Alabama Press is actually based on a subvention fund by Duke University of approximately $35,000 per year. Duke is no longer willing to sustain this subvention unconditionally. Therefore, continuation of publication with the University of Alabama Press under the current arrangement is NOT an option. If the ADS continues to publish AS and PADS with the University of Alabama Press, then a new arrangement will be required. The committee established a set of criteria that would serve as the basis for evaluating the proposals that we received. These include the following factors: proprietary interest (editorial control), the production process, electronic publication, marketing, membership and subscription, financial terms, archiving and storage, supplemental publications (PADS), stability, prestige, and commitment to the ADS. After reviewing the proposals in terms of these considerations, the committee determined that the two most competitive proposals were those submitted by Blackwell and Duke University Press. For all of the factors excluding commitment, the University of Alabama Press proposal was considered to be less competitive than the Duke University Press or Blackwell proposals. Nonetheless, because of the longstanding loyalty and commitment to ADS by the University of Alabama Press, we recommend three proposals for discussion by the ADS Executive Committee and membership: Blackwell, Duke University Press, and the University of Alabama Press. Of the submitted proposals, Duke appeared to offer the best financial deal for the ADS, although it should be noted that all of the financial packages (including those from commercial publishers that we did not forward for present consideration) were far superior to the proposed financial package offered by the University of Alabama Press. Duke also was strong in terms of the commitment factor, having invested significant subvention funding (in excess of $500,000) over the past 15 years. Blackwell's proposal offers the marketing advantages of a large and respected commercial publisher with experience in marketing linguistic textbooks and journals. Duke does not currently publish linguistic journals or textbooks, but has vast experience as a publisher of journals and books in a wide variety of fields, including titles in linguistic theory. With respect to proprietary interest, Blackwell proposes either to buy the publications in whole or in part for up to $100,000, or to have ADS retain full ownership. Duke University Press does not propose to buy the publications. Neither press would interfere with editorial matters. The current editors are all acquainted with the contact persons at Duke University Press and are convinced that the transition from the University of Alabama Press to Duke University Press would be seamless and easy as compared to the transition to a new commercial press based in another city. We determined that the evaluation of the relative strengths and weaknesses of the respective proposals would be communicated to representatives from each of the candidate publishers. Revised or amended proposals would be encouraged on the basis of our feedback. We also proposed inviting representatives of each of the candidate publishers to New York for an opportunity to meet with interested ADS members. The committee discussed membership status in the ADS, since some of the proposals were based on differential fee rates for individuals and institutions. Such a practice follows the common and expected practice for journal subscriptions, and proposals from Blackwell and Duke appear to be contingent upon the differential membership fee. The committee recommended making a distinction between different types of membership: regular, student, life, and subscriptions. Although clarification is still necessary, it appears that this action might require an amendment to the ADS constitution. The current by-laws simply state, "Membership is open to all persons interested in the object of the Society." The committee concluded that AS and PADS were significantly undervalued in the journal marketplace and that a course of action was needed in order for the ADS journal to assume its rightful place in the profession. It is obvious from the proposals submitted by the different publishers that the journal is highly attractive to commercial and non-profit, university-based publishers. Finally, we noted that, regardless of which publisher we choose for the new contract, the contract could be renegotiated for future years, and publishers could be changed if and when circumstances require change. Plan of Action: As a result of our deliberation, we propose the following plan of action. (1) We propose that a discussion of publication options for AS and PADS be given high priority on the agenda for the upcoming meeting of the Executive Committee and the general meeting of ADS in January, 1998, in New York City. All of the proposals submitted for our consideration will be made available for perusal by the membership at that time. (2) We propose that representatives from the University of Alabama Press, Blackwell, and Duke University Press be invited to meet with interested ADS members after the executive and general meeting of the ADS for purposes of clarification regarding the terms of the proposals. Separate meetings will be held with each of the representatives. (3) We propose that an announcement of publishing options for AS and PADS be reported to the general membership through NADS or a special mailing to the ADS membership. The general membership should be encouraged to contact Executive Committee members with their opinions concerning the merits of candidate publishers. (4) We propose that a special vote of the Executive Committee be held no later than March 31, 1998, in order to make a final decision about the selection of a contract with a publisher for AS and PADS. (5) We propose that a special negotiating committee meet with the publisher selected by the vote of the Executive Committee to negotiate the final terms of the contract for publishing AS and PADS. The committee will be comprised of the ADS President, the Executive Secretary, and two appointed members of ADS selected respectively by the President and the Executive Secretary. It is anticipated that the new contract should begin with the first issue of AS in 1999. Walt Wolfram Box 8105 English Dept. North Carolina State University Raleigh, NC 27695-8105 E-MAIL: wolfram[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]social.chass.ncsu.edu FAX (919) 515-1836 PH: (919) 515-4151 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 10:24:23 -0500 From: "Bethany K. Dumas" dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTK.EDU Subject: Re: Reconsidering ADS publication arrangements I would like to thank the members of the ad hoc committee for all your work re our publications. I'll see you on the 9th -- and I urge all ADS members who can to attend. Bethany ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 12:02:56 EST From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Nominate Words of the Year 1997 It's that time! As you know, a lighter part of our business on Friday, January 9 in New York City will be our nominations and vote on Words of the Year just past, something we've done since 1990. We still don't have objective criteria for our choice. Instead, it's a matter of expert (=our) opinion: what words and phrases have been most notable during the past year? Which ones best reflect our preoccupations and attitudes? We don't insist that they be brand-new words, because few words born in a year become instantly widespread. (Example: "Ebonics," coined 1973, published 1975, used in a small circle till mid-December 1996.) However, it's nice to spot fledglings with promise. We also don't insist that they be widely known; some of our choices have been for cleverness rather than popularity. (Example: "bushlips" insincere political rhetoric, chosen as our first WOTY in 1990.) I must say, though, that I'm uneasy at a choice where everyone says "huh? Never heard of it." Our procedure is to determine a half dozen categories and two or three nominees for each in the morning committee meeting, then make our selection in an open and not too solemn vote in the afternoon. The categories emphasize the subjectiveness of the vote; at times we've thought of changing to subject- matter categories, and we always can do that. But there's some benefit from keeping the continuity of previous years' categories. Nominations will come from Wayne Glowka, chair of the ADS New Words Committee; David Barnhart, editor of the quarterly Barnhart Dictionary Companion that publishes new words; and (new this year) Gareth Branwyn of Wired magazine, keeping us up to date on the most influential source of new words, the e- world. But other nominations are most welcome. Whether you have just one word to propose or a whole list, please be brief and let us know: the word, its definition, if possible a citation or example of use, and (if needed) a reason why it should be WOTY. Post your nomination to ADS-L or, if you're shy, send it to Wayne at: wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu To remind you of the context, I'll attach the report on previous years' voting. You can find detailed reports each year in the January issues of NADS. - Allan Metcalf ---------------------- 'MOM' CHOSEN AS WORD OF THE YEAR 1996 In its annual vote at its annual meeting, the American Dialect Society on Jan. 3, 1997 chose as word of the year 1996: "mom" as in "soccer mom," the newly significant type of voter courted by both candidates during the presidential campaign. That term spun off other designations such as "minivan mom" and "waitress mom." "Mom" received 25 votes in the final show of hands, compared with 16 for the runner-up "alpha geek," the person in a workplace who knows most about computers. Before the vote on Word of the Year, members choose winners in particular categories. These were the other 1996 choices: 1. Most Useful: "dot" (18 votes) used instead of "period" in e-mail and URL addresses. Runner-up was "d'oh" (12) recognition of one's stupidity (from the Simpsons TV show). 2. Most Unnecessary: "Mexican hustle" (20) another name for the Macarena (which is not Mexican). Runner-ups were "bridge to the 21st century" (13) the putative work of presidential candidate Bill Clinton, and "uber-" (6) prefix substituting for "super" as in "ubermom." 3. Most Controversial: "Ebonics" (unanimous) African-American vernacular English. Even among ADS members "Ebonics" was controversial, as they found themselves disagreeing on the definition. Does "Ebonics" imply that it is a separate language? 4. Most Likely to Succeed: "drive-by" (25) designating brief visits or hospital stays as in "drive-by labor," "drive-by mastectomy," "drive-by viewing." Runner-up: "nail" (7) to accomplish perfectly, as an Olympic feat, election victory, or movie role. 5. Most Outrageous: "toy soldier" (22) land mine (in the former Yugoslavia). Runner-ups: "stalkerazzi" (4) photographers (paparazzi) who stalk their prey, and "roofie" (3) Rohypnol, the date-rape drug. 6. Most Original: "prebuttal" (18) preemptive rebuttal; quick response to a political adversary. Runner-up: "alpha geek" (14). 7. Most Euphemistic: tie (18 each) between "urban camping" living homeless in a city, and "food insecure" said of a country where people are starving. 8. Word of the Year, first vote: "mom" 7, "alpha geek" 7, "drive-by" 7, "go there" to mention a topic 6, "dot" 5, "all that" 5, "Macarena" 2, "stalkerazzi" 2, "nail" 1, "prebuttal" 1, "una" as in Unabomber 1. Second vote: "mom" 12, "alpha geek" 9, "drive-by" 7, "go there" 7, "dot" 4, "all that" 3. Third vote: "mom" 17, "alpha geek" 10, "drive-by" 9, "go there" 6. Final vote: "mom" 25, "alpha geek" 16. Previous choices for Words of the Year 1995 (tie) World Wide Web on the Internet, and newt to make aggressive changes as a newcomer. 1994 (tie) cyber pertaining to computers and electronic communication, and morph to change form. 1993 information superhighway network linking computers, television, telephone, and other electronic means of communication. 1992 Not! expression of disagreement. 1991 mother of all --, greatest, most impressive. 1990 bushlips, insincere political rhetoric. Previous choices in particular categories 1995 Most Useful: E.Q. (for Emotional Quotient), the ability to manage one's emotions. Most Unnecessary: Vanna White shrimp, large shrimp for the restaurant market. Most Likely to Succeed: World Wide Web and its variants the Web, WWW, W3. Most Original: postal or go postal, to act irrationally, often violently, from stress at work. Most Outrageous: starter marriage, a first marriage not expected to be the last. Most Euphemistic: patriot, one who believes in using force of arms if necessary to defend individual rights against the government. 1994 Most Useful: gingrich, to deal with government agencies, policies, and people in the manner of U.S. House Speaker Newt Gingrich. Most Promising: Infobahn, the Internet. Most Imaginative: guillermo, an e-mail message in a foreign language. Most Euphemistic: challenged indicating an undesirable or unappealing condition. Most Trendy: dress down day or casual day, a workday when employees are allowed to dress casually. Most Beautiful: sylvanshine, night-time iridescence of forest trees. 1993 Most Useful: thing premodified by a noun, e.g. "a Chicago thing." Most Unnecessary: mosaic culture to describe a multicultural society. Most Likely to Succeed: quotative like with a form of the verb be to indicate speech or thought. Most Outrageous: whirlpooling, assault of a female by a male group in a swimming pool. Most Amazing: cybersex, sexual stimulation by computer. Most Imaginative: McJob, a generic, unstimulating, low-paying job. Most Euphemistic: street builder, a homeless person who constructs a shanty. Most Unpronounceable: Jurassosaurus nedegoapeferkimorum, a new dinosaur. 1992 Most Useful: grunge, a style of clothing. Most Unnecessary: gender feminism, belief that sex roles are social, not biological. Most Outrageous: ethnic cleansing, purging of ethnic minorities. Most Original: Franken-, genetically altered. Most Likely to Succeed: snail mail, s-mail, mail that is physically delivered, as opposed to e-mail. Most Amazing: Munchhausen's syndrome by proxy, illness fabricated to evoke sympathy for the caregiver. 1991 Most Unnecessary: massively parallel, many small computers yoked together. Most Successful: in your face, aggressive, confrontational, flamboyant. Most Original: molecular pharming, pharming, genetically modifying farm animals to produce human proteins for pharmaceutical use. Most Likely to Succeed: rollerblade, skate with rollers in a single row. Most Amazing: velcroid, a person who sticks by the (U.S.) president, especially for photo opportunities. 1990 Most Useful: technostupidity, loss of ability through dependence on machines, and potty parity, equalization of toilet facilities for the sexes. Most Unnecessary: peace dividend, anticipated saving in military spending due to improved relations with the Soviet Union. Most Outrageous: politically correct, PC, adhering to principles of left-wing social concern. Most Original: voice merging, the oral tradition of African-American preachers using another's words. Most Likely to Succeed: notebook PC, a portable personal computer weighting 4-8 pounds, and rightsizing, adjusting the size of a staff by laying off employees. Most Amazing: bungee jumping, jumping from a high platform with elastic cables on the feet. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 14:48:54 -0500 From: Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]JERRYNET.COM Subject: ADS-L Archive Search Revised I have revised the ADS-L archive search page. -- All archives available from 1992 to present are now included. -- The digests now have html suffixes, allowing them to load in most browsers without a problem. -- I have added line and paragraph breaks in the documents. The files are much easier to read, having been restored to basically their original form. If you happen to save a page to disk, choose Text rather than Source or HTML and the html tags will disappear. -- The number of searches conducted by members has been fairly consistent at a couple or so a day. Considering the relatively low numbers of people on this list, I think that's pretty good. I'll keep this search engine up until it gets in the way or I decide I have the time and resources to make it permanent. -- The search should be about 25% faster, at the penalty of allowing fewer users to connect to the web server simultaneously. I might have to change this back; in January our agency web site goes online and I expect there to be a lot more traffic after the indexers and robots come by. -- Event though the search is faster, I removed the All search option because it is so s l o w. Two minutes is entirely too long for a search. I will restore it when I find a faster search option. -- I am now looking for a different search engine that will allow users to search an index rather than looking in all the files each time. Since there are about 1800 files occupying 10 MB of space, the current search method is tedious. -- I have changed the default search date to 1997 and removed individual monthly entries. Comments, questions and insults welcome as always. Grant Barrett gbarrett[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]dfjp.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:34:26 EST From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Holiday riddle Why are grammarians good gift consultants? Because they know the present perfect. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:25:15 -0600 From: Angel M Forney forneam[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU Subject: Un-subcribe UN-SUBCRIBE ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 19:04:51 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Reconsidering ADS publication arrangements Its probably premature until the executive committee sees all the publisher's proposals, but I have this initial reaction to the publishing proposal. 1. Emotionally, I hate to see the break with Alabama Press. UAP has published PADS for years, I think perhaps from the beginning, or at least since it was PADS. It's an old tradition. My personal experience with all the people at UAP has been excellent. When I started my book project, I sent my first inquiry directly to Mr. MacDonald, and he gave me a lot of encouragement, even sent an inquiry when I let the project lag. Without his positive support, I am not sure I would ever have finished the book. If there is any way the Alabama proposal can be made competitve, I would want to see it get every consideration. 2. Having let my heart speak first, I would have to say the Duke proposal looks very competitve. I did not know either about the $35,000 dollar subvention. Moreover, during Ron Butters' excellent tenure, American Speech has had a connection with Duke for a number of years. We aren't, presumably, dealing with strangers. 3. I don't know if physical space is important in this electronic age, but if it is, it seems good that Connie, the editor of American Speech, is right down the road at Chapel Hill. 4. When people are evaluated for tenure, "Duke University" on the title page of your book or article doesn't hurt. To sum up, it hurts to think of the connection with UAP broken. I hope that isn't necessary. But if that's where we are, the Duke offer looks awfully good. Of course, that's all a first-hand remark. Tim PS Let me add my thanks to Bethany's for the committee's work up to this point. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:12:18 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: "Mudville" article #1 Here is the first of two articles on Mudville sent to me by the staff of Western Historical Manuscript Collection (Columbia, MO) from its Peter Tamony Collection of Americanisms. The article isn't conclusive but is still of interest. At the top Tamony stamped S.F. Examiner and S.F. Chronicle, May 20, 1979; he added in handwriting Sunday Punch, p.8/2-5. The title of the article is "The Original Mudville," and the subtitle is "Did Mighty Casey strike out in Stockton? (And qualify for its Hall of Fame?)." The writer is Art Rosenbaum, Chronicle Sports Editor. "The University of Pacific is raising money to build an Events Center which will include a basketball court for some 6000 to 8000 spectators. A place also will be provided for a Stockton Hall of Fame, memorializing great events (not only sports) invovling both the University and the Stockton area. One planned display will recognize Stockton as the original Mudville in that remarkable and immortal American ballad, 'Casey at the Bat,' written by Ernest L. Thayer, which first appeared in the fourth column of the third page of the San Francisco Examiner on Sunday morning, June 3, 1888. In the '80s, Stockton, a port town, was indeed nicknamed Mudville. As everyone knows, the poem ends with super-slugger Mighty Casey striking out, and: Oh, somewhere in this favored land the sun is shining bright; The band is playing somewhere, and somewhere hearts are light, And somewhere men are laughing, and somewhere children shout; But there is no joy in Mudville--mighty Casey has struck out. Was Stockton really Thayer's (and Casey's) Mudville? There is, it would seem, a legend behind the legend. The most believable research indicates that Thayer wrote for The Lampoon, the college humor magazine, and became friendly with fellow student William Randolph Hearst, later to be publisher of the Examiner. Hearst asked Thayer to contribute some humor pieces. Thayer stayed in San Francisco for approximately a year and a half, then because of ill health returned to Worcester, Mass. but continued to mail material. One of these was "Casey." "Casey" might have died with first publication except for happenstance. A rising young actor and bass singer, William DeWolf Hopper, was informed that members of the New York Giants and Chicago White Stockings would be in the audience one night and he wanted a special bit to highlight the occasion. When he mentioned his need one day at lunch, a friend pulled out a little clipping from his wallet, the original "Casey." Hopper's rendition of the poem at old Wallack's Theatre on Broadway created a national sensation. Thousands of different versions have been recited since, ncluding the one Jim (Bottles) Leary does at the San Francisco Press Club. Curiously, Hopper never asked permission to act out the poem on the stage and Thayer apparently disturbed that this was considered the only work of merit in his portfolio, came to hate it and virtually deny he wrote it. For years the true authorship of "Casey" remained largely a secret. But the poem's message, like the fall of Humpty Dumpty, grew and grew. And it became 'Stockton's own" in the mid-50's when the late Jack O'Keefe, Stockton's chief of police and a principal in the local ball team, the Stockton Ports, decided on a pre-season promotion. Tom Mellis, at the time affiliated with the rival Modesto Reds, remembers, 'O'Keefe decided, all by himself, that Mudville was Stockton. He decided to have the poem re-enacted to open the season and he brought in Max Baer, the former heavyweight champion and a giant of a man, to step up to the plate and strike out. It was all tongue-in-cheek but the Chief was absolutely right. He created a new legend and clouded the old.' John Peri is the former sports editor of the Stockton Record. He recollects, 'Well, you know we are at sea level and this is delta land. We were the frontier delta town where the 49er miners moved on up to the hills. There was a lot of fog here and we were known as Tuleberg and also Mudville because of the tidewater. 'Jack O'Keefe played baseball at St. Mary's College and was always a fan, as well as owner and league director. The promotion you mention was wonderful fun. The players wore old time uniforms and fake handlebar mustaches. O'Keefe himself was a portly fellow, a living Stockton Port, you might say, who could have played Casey himself. Author Thayer supposedly told an interviewer once that his Mudville was nowhere and everywhere, but most Eastern writers placed it near Thayer's home in Massachusetts. And yet, possibly Thayer heard of Stockton/Mudville and included it subsconsciously." [G. Cohen: I omit the final two paragraphs of the article, since they add nothing of substance.] gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 18 Dec 1997 to 19 Dec 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 19 Dec 1997 to 20 Dec 1997 There are 5 messages totalling 351 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. SLANG FOR A SATURDAY: Not Found in Webster 2. Blind Tiger; X-Mess; The Raven 3. Reconsidering ADS publication arrangements 4. "Mudville" article #2 5. Barry Popik's New Items ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 06:00:15 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: SLANG FOR A SATURDAY: Not Found in Webster The Chicago Tribune had a short-lived series, "NOT FOUND IN WEBSTER," that ran in a box near the sports headlines. Here they are--some of which HAVE been recorded: "Ain't It De Trut."--8 February 1917, pg. 12. "Yazza."--11 February 1917, pg. 11. "Gwan Ya Bum."--12 February 1917, pg. 11. (Precedes "Dodger Bum"--ed.) "Yagottahandittoem."--13 February 1917, pg. 11. "Zat So."--15 February 1917, pg. 12. "Eluvanote."--16 February 1917, pg. 9. "Attaboy"--22 February 1917, pg. 7. "Awjuminthlake."--23 February 1917, pg. 11. "Whereja Get Thastuff."--24 February 1917, pg. 14. "Thas Aw Ri'."--25 February 1917, pg. 3, section II. "Buhlieve Muh."--4 March 1917, pg. 2, section II. "Plentaroomupfront."--10 March 1917, pg. 14. "Waddye Mean?"--11 March 1917, pg. 3, section II. "Watchyastep."--13 March 1917, pg. 11. "Pleasetameetcha."--14 March 1917, pg. 14. "Heeza 'Nother."--16 March 1917, pg. 9. "Wadja Say Tathat?"--18 March 1917. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 06:32:59 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Blind Tiger; X-Mess; The Raven This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_882617580_boundary Content-ID: 0_882617580[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII BLIND TIGER RHHDAS has "blind tiger" meaning "illicit whiskey" to 1904, and meaning "speakeasy" to 1909. Tom Dalzell might be covering this for his SLANG OF SIN, and he should know that both of these dates are way off. The DA records "Blind Tiger, ten cents a sight" to 1857. This probably refers to the drink. For the latter, I have this from the Atlanta Journal (GA), 11 January 1886, pg. 2, col. 3: "Blind Tigers." "Blind tigers" is what they call the illicit whisky shops which dot the line between northwest Georgia and Alabama. In the same newspaper, pg. 3 col. 1, is: THOUGH HE HAD' EM/ THE VISION WHICH TERRIFIED AN "ALL NIGHT" MAN./ The Stout Man with a Fly in His Eye--The Slender Man Who Thought He Felt the "Jim-Jams"--Explained. I have a few other "jim-jams," but no antedate. RHHDAS has 1869. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- X-MESS "X-Mess" was the title of something that ran on AOL yesterday. It sounds like a nonce word that frustrated Christmas shoppers make up on the spot, but I've tracked many online citations. I don't have Nexis handy to date it. In addition to "Sidewalk Santa," "Kriss Kringle," and "X-Mess," I could run some original papers on the disputed authorship of "An Account of a Visit From St. Nicholas"; a popular Microsoft version of this poem; and part one of a series (why Saul changed his name) that will solve/explain the origins of Christianity. Might be a liitle far afield for ADS-L, though. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------------------------- THE RAVEN I sent my "Raven" posting around to Poe Societies on the web. Poe's Philadelphia house responded first and provided the telephone number of the Walnut Street Theatre where THE BLACK RAVEN played in 1843, but had no other opinion of the citation. --part0_882617580_boundary Content-ID: 0_882617580[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.2 Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline Return-Path: INDE_Poe_House[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nps.gov Received: from relay32.mail.aol.com (relay32.mail.aol.com [172.31.109.32]) by air07.mail.aol.com (v37.8) with SMTP; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:35:08 -0500 Received: from bigbird.itd.nps.gov (bigbird.itc.nps.gov [165.83.216.15]) by relay32.mail.aol.com (8.8.5/8.8.5/AOL-4.0.0) with SMTP id PAA27201 for Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:57:12 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccmail.itd.nps.gov by bigbird.itd.nps.gov (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA01248; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:49:07 -0500 Received: from ccMail by ccmail.itd.nps.gov (IMA Internet Exchange 2.12 Enterprise) id 000273F0; Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:44:00 -0500 Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:35:55 -0500 Message-ID: 000273F0.1235[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nps.gov From: INDE_Poe_House[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nps.gov (INDE Poe House) To: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Fwd: The Raven Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit TO: Barry Popik FROM: John Stoudt SUBJECT: "Ravens" DATE: 12/19/97 Sorry, we do not have any information here that would help you in your attempt to find more information regarding the two pre-Poe "Raven" ravens. You might try either the Free Library of Philadelphia (which, I am told, has an excellent theater arts history section) at (215) 686-5427 or (215) 686-5396. The Walnut Street Theater can be called at (215) 574-3550. I called that number but got a voicemail message. Good Luck! John Stoudt Park Ranger Edgar Allan Poe National Historic Site ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Fwd: The Raven Author: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com at NP--INTERNET Date: 12/18/97 2:08 AM Dear Poe People, Are these two pre-Poe "Raven" ravens known? Are you familiar with the 1843 play THE BLACK RAVEN (Walnut Street Theatre, Philadelphia) and the 1839 poem "The Raven" in N. P. Willis's CORSAIR? I sent this to my list at the American Dialect Society. Sorry for the corny jokes! --Barry Popik 225 East 57th Street, Apt. 7P New York, NY 10022 (212) 308-2635 Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com Contributor to the RANDOM HOUSE HISTORICAL DICTIONARY OF AMERICAN SLANG, AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS, CITY IN SLANG, et al. Various postings on the American Dialect Society list (ADS-L archives) include the origin of the Big Apple, Fun City, the Windy City, Beantown, I'm from Missouri-show me, Hoosier, Canuck, the Democratic donkey, the G. O. P., Kriss Kringle, Uncle Sam, O. K., 69, Not!, hot dog, pizza, shake, ice cream sandwich, club sandwich, Tom Collins, New York's Finest/Bravest/Strongest/Boldest, New York Yankees, Bronx Bombers, baseball fan, grand slam, jazz, shindig, hobo, lollapalooza, Longfellow's "There Was a Little Girl" poem, and much more. -------------------- From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com Return-path: Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: The Raven Date: Tue, 16 Dec 1997 01:13:25 EST Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Edgar Allan Poe's "The Raven" is perhaps the most celebrated American poem. It's long been known that Poe "copied" or "borrowed" from other works. I've identified two previously unknown pre-Poe "Raven" ravens. I found the second, more important one today. A different poem called "The Raven" appeared in the February 1839 (I may have the month wrong) CORSAIR. Poe probably read the CORSAIR, because the editor was his friend, N. P. Willis. Willis later edited the New York Mirror, where Poe's "The Raven" was printed on 29 January 1845. I think Poe's vasted overrated now (a "language maven" titled a book after the poem, and there's even a football team called the Baltimore Ravens!), but I've been to Poe homes in Richmond, Baltimore (where he's buried), and the Bronx. A few years ago, I sent the CORSAIR "Raven" to Bronx Community College Poe scholar Burton Pollin. He hadn't heard of the poem before, but he didn't think that the vastly different "Raven" had much influence. I was going through the Public Ledger of Philadelphia today when--just a minute, something just flew in. THE RAVEN: Nevermore! POPIK: You crap on my bust of Pallas Athena and I'll break your bones! This is from the Public Ledger, 28 February 1843, pg. 2, col. 3: _The Black Raven_, as produced now at the Walnut street Theatre, is a decided improvement upon the former performances. Russell is a very nimble fellow, a good dancer, and plays his part well. Miss Wallace, as Columbine, does excellently, and her dancing is much admired. Davenport plays the part of the Old Roue with much credit; and Barnes, the clown, grows more comical in his tricks at every performance. It draws well, and is worth seeing. THE RAVEN: Nevermore! POPIK: Don't you say anything else? THE RAVEN: Butter! POPIK: Butter? THE RAVEN: Parkay! POPIK: Parkay is margarine! THE RAVEN: Omnipoint! Omnipoint! In 1839, Poe became coeditor of Burton's Gentlemen's Magazine in Philadelphia. In 1843, his story "The Gold Bug" won a prize of $100 from the Philadelphia DOLLAR NEWSPAPER. I'm reading this from a book (which I bought in Richmond) edited by Roscoe Brown Fisher, THE JAMES CARLING ILLUSTRATIONS OF EDGAR ALLAN POE'S "THE RAVEN" (1982). Poe left Philadelphia for New York City in April 1843. Had Poe seen _The Black Raven_ at the Walnut Street Theatre? What was that production about, anyway? I'll have to do some more checking--just a minute! I hear a gentle rapping, rapping, as if some visitor was tapping, tapping at my chamber door. LENORE: Hello, my name's Lenore, and I was looking for my--there he is!! THE RAVEN: Nevermore! I gotta stick to Henry Wadsworth Longfellow poems. --part0_882617580_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 08:33:54 EST From: simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CVAX.IPFW.INDIANA.EDU Subject: Re: Reconsidering ADS publication arrangements I want to add my thanks to Bethany's and Tim's for the committee's work! beth simon assistant professor, linguistics and english indiana university purdue university fort wayne, simon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cvax.ipfw.indiana.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 16:33:08 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: "Mudville" article #2 Here is the second article on "Mudville," from the Peter Tamony Collection. At the top of the page Tamony stamped S.F. Examiner, S.F. Chronicle, June 3, 1979 and wrote Scene p.8/2-4. The article is by Art Rosenbaum, Chronicle Sports Editor. "Two punches ago we undertook an update of the great American baseball ballad 'Casey at the Bat,' as it relates to the city of Stockton. Our treatment was an amused skepticism. The conclusion, if any, was that the Mudville of the poem was not Stockton despite all claims to the contrary. This piece becomes Part II and will probably leave the issue as clouded as ever. But first a backgrounder. University of Pacific is planning a new Events Center for basketball, graduations, concerts and allied performances. Out in the foyer, or in a separate room, there will be a Stockton-area 'Hall of Fame' to include memorable moments of the school and that port city. The history of 'Casey' will be included because, it has been argued, author Ernest L. Thayer was inspired by the Mudville that was Stockton when he wrote the poem in 1888. ...Thayer wrote for the San Francisco Examiner in 1888, but this particular piece was mailed from his home in Worcester, Mass. Boston claimed all territorial rights. The late Jack O'Keefe, then Chief of Police, brought Stockton's claim to the fore again in the 1950s when he staged 'Casey at the Bat' days to open each Stockton Ports season, with former heavyweight champion Max Baer playing the strikeout role that had been done in three movies by DeWitt Hopper (who recited the poem for the first time on stage), Wallace Beery and William Haines. Stocktonites do not like the nickname 'Slough City' but are willing to accept 'Mudville' only in reference to the old dock area of the mid-80s, the takeoff point to the gold country as well as the site of early baseball games. John DePangher of Palo Alto, a physicist at Stanford University, satisfied his curiosity by conducting a search for the feats of his uncle Michael DePangher with the A&G Stockton team of 1887. He found something else--box scores to support the theory (fact) that there was a Casey, except his real name was Cahill; that two players mentioned in the original poem, Flynn and Cooney, were actually on the team. He is convinced that Thayer got the idea for his poem from two games in Sacramento and his observations of the Stockton team. 'The old files show,' he writes, that in one of these games Cahill was put out three times by a very blind umpire...[dots present in article; G. Cohen] in another game, Flynn, on loan to Sacramento from Stockton, made three great rents in the air when he struck out. De Pangher has also gone to the archives for newspaper game stories titled 'Mobbing the Umpire' and 'A Pitcher Slugged' in which anonymous writers show a style similar to Thayer's. Best of all, DePangher says, he learned that his uncle Mike was probably the catcher of this most famous 'ballad of the republic.' Chief O'Keefe was league president and a Stockton Ports director. He played up 'Casey' to the hilt. Jimmie Longe, Stockton's best-known sportscaster, was recruited by the Chief to do the research on the poem, write a script for the dramatization and rehearse a very willing Max Baer, already something of an actor, for his role. Baer was a tremendous man--shoulders like airplane wings and a barrel chest, to mix a description. They gave him an oversized bat with Longe reciting, Max looked fiercely comical striking out, then reverting to his boxing pose of being knocked out." [G.Cohen: I omit the final five paragraphs of the article, which contain nothing substantial. BTW, could there possibly have been two Mudvilles, one in California (Stockton) and one in Massachusetts, that inspired Thayer? I'll check the book _Casey at the Bat_ by Jim Moore and Natalie Vermilyea to see if any mention is made of a Mudville in Massachusetts.] gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Dec 1997 17:52:39 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: Barry Popik's New Items On l2/20/97 Barry Popik wrote: I could run some original papers on the disputed authorship of "An Account of a Visit From St. Nicholas"; a popular Microsoft version of this poem; and part one of a series (why Saul changed his name) that will solve/explain the origins of Christianity. Might be a liitle far afield for ADS-L, though. ********* I hereby extend a formal invitation to Barry to present his material. It may be a bit far afield from the usual ADS-L fare, but my guess is that most members will find it quite interesting. --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Dec 1997 to 20 Dec 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 20 Dec 1997 to 21 Dec 1997 There are 3 messages totalling 74 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "wig out" 2. Chicagoland 3. un-subscribe ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 12:31:50 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: Re: "wig out" On l2/18/97 David Bergdahl asked about to "wig out," adding: "I've met the term in novels by AA authors written in the 70's and early 80's. I don't know if it's still current." Information on this topic can be found in Clarence Major's _Juba to Jive: A Dictionary of African-American Slang_ (Viking Pr., 1994): "WIG, n. (1930s-1960s) a man or woman's natural hair that has been processed or straightened; one's mentality, brain, skull, thoughts. WIG, n. (1930s-1950s) in the jazz world, a highly respected musician, respected because he or she 'wigs' people out--reaching them on a mental level and causing reflection, rather than exciting them to dance. WIG [ONE] OUT; WIGGED [ONE] OUT (1950s-1960s) in jazz, to excite or thrill; respond with great enthusiasm; used also in the same way in street culture--to delight, etc. Example: 'Man, Bags [Milt Jackson] really wigs me out when he starts tapping that vibraphone like he's making tender love to it.' WIGGED OUT, adj. (1950s-1960s) to be extremely high on narcotics. WIGGING, v. (1940S-1950s) in jazz, playing unusually innovative music; talking strangely or doing something considered 'weird.'" ----Meanwhile, Milton "Mezz" Mezzrow's autobiography _Really the Blues_ (co-authored with Bernard Wolfe; 1946) presents in its glossary: "WIG - head or hair WIG TRIG - idea" --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 16:46:20 -0500 From: Orin Hargraves OKH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM Subject: Chicagoland Can anyone document the birth and career of the term Chicagoland? Any hel= p appreciated. with best wishes, Orin Hargraves OKH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]compuserve.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 21 Dec 1997 17:12:48 -0500 From: phil traxler ptraxstar[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KIH.NET Subject: un-subscribe un-subscribe ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Dec 1997 to 21 Dec 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 21 Dec 1997 to 22 Dec 1997 There are 12 messages totalling 353 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Glass Curtain 2. Blackbirds 3. ADS Luncheon Uncovered 4. Rail Splitter; Lobby 5. ADS luncheon: review 6. ADS-L RETURNED MAIL (2) 7. Test 8. "wig out" (2) 9. wig out 10. ADS luncheon choices ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 05:04:39 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Glass Curtain What hath "the glass ceiling" wrought? This is from the New York Post, 21 December 1997, pg. 53: Hitting theater's "glass curtain" Why women behind the scenes can't make it on Broadway By Amy Worthen (...) She (Susana Tolbert) says she ran up against theater's "glass curtain," a barrier that female directors, producers and playwrights say has kept them from the reaching the (sic) top ranks of American theater. A computer check shows a recent book by Carlo Gebler called THE GLASS CURTAIN: INSIDE AN ULSTER COMMUNITY. The first "glass curtain" (which appears to play off Winston Churchill's "iron curtain") is a 1965 symposium book edited by Raghavan Narasimhan Iyer, THE GLASS CURTAIN BETWEEN ASIA AND EUROPE. Why do women have all this "glass" everywhere? What's next? PHILIP GLASS: Beats me. It's driving me crazy. POPIK: Philip Glass! Last week's Village Voice cover! PHILIP GLASS: I don't live in a glass house. It doesn't have a glass curtain and it doesn't have a glass ceiling. I don't even have a glass-bottom boat! POPIK: Have a heart. PHILIP GLASS: I DON'T HAVE A "HEART OF GLASS," EITHER!! POPIK: Women can see right through you. PHILIP GLASS: IT'S A PANE IN THE GLASS!!!! POPIK: Do you have any glass slippers? Would you say you live in a Glass Menagerie? PHILIP GLASS: No! It doesn't have a Glass Key, or a Glass Wall, or a Glass Sphinx, or a Glass Tomb, or a Glass Cage, or a Glass Web, or a Glass Tower, or a Glass Mountain!!!! POPIK: You left out GLASS ALIBI (1946), directed by Lee Wilder. PHILIP GLASS: I'M SHATTERED!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 05:04:58 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Blackbirds This term--"blackbirds"-- goes with, but perhaps appeared too late for, the period of AMISTAD. OED has "blackbird" (cant name for a captive negro or Polynesian on board a slave or pirate ship) to 1881, "blackbirder" to 1883, and "blackbirding" to 1873. RHHDAS has a dubious "blackbird" for 1832, and then one for 1865. I was going through the New York Morning Express: 10 July 1860, NY Morning Express, pg. 2, col. 2. THE BUSINESS IN "BLACKBIRDS." (...) The sailors were examined, in turn, but every one of them was an intense "know-nothing." The whole party in fact were in a lamentable condition of ignorance touching the particular use to which said "Kate" was to be put as soon as the Coast of Africa was reached. To be sure one or two of these innocents confessed that they had heard some mysterious whispering about "blackbirds," etc., but as nobody seemed to know what was meant by "blackbirds," the Commissioner ordered the entire gang to be discharged. 25 July 1860, NY Morning Express, pg. 1, col. 3. We are delighted to see the Tribune giving its attention to "the Greeks" at our own doors. (...) The Tribune sees a "blackbird Line" of slavers here now,--among them, the Bark Kate, opposite Castle Garden... 9 August 1860, NY Morning Express, pg. 1, col. 4. "THE BLACKBIRD FLEET"--as the New York Yankee Slavers are called, we rejoice to see, yet attracting Northern Abolition attention. When we can make the Abolition Journals see "the Greeks are at home," not all in the Cotton States, then there will be hope for peace in the country. 15 August 1860, NY Morning Express, pg. 2, col. 3. STILL ANOTHER BLACKBIRD--Arrived at this port last (Tuesday) night... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 11:37:22 EST From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: ADS Luncheon Uncovered At last, thanks to David Barnhart's pavement-pounding, we have a home for the ADS Annual Luncheon 1:00-2:15 pm Saturday, January 10. The speaker will be *William Labov* of the University of Pennsylvania. The place will be right across the street from our hotel: Houlihan's, 380 Lexington Ave. at 42nd Street. For $25 inclusive (payable to American Dialect Society), you will get - fresh garden salad with dressing - choice of entree - apple pie - unlimited coffee, tea and soda. You may also order other beverages from your server at additional cost. Now here is the deal on the choice of entree. We are supposed to tell the restaurant by *January 1* what our choice is. Naturally, not everyone will have been able to choose by then. So I'm making item 6 (Chicken Florentine) the default choice. But if you're going to the luncheon, and would like something different, please let me know by January 1. (Some of you have already paid. If not, you do not need to *pay* in advance, but advance reservations would be helpful; and they will also guarantee you a place. Send reservations and menu choices directly to me at AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com.) Choice of entrees: 1. Grilled chicken breast with mashed potatoes and sugar snap peas 2. Cheddar burger with lettuce, tomato, shaved red onion and natural cut fries 3. Plaza Club: sliced turkey breast and ham with bacon, provolone, shredded lettuce, tomato and mayo on freshly baked pan bread with natural cut fries 4. Chicken fingers with honey mustard dressing and natural cut fries 5. Chicken Caesar salad 6. Chicken Florentine: grilled chicken with Florentine sauce and vegetables. See you there! - Allan Metcalf, ADS Executive Secretary ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:06:43 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Rail Splitter; Lobby ADS-L RETURNED MAIL For my last two message ("Blackbirds" and "Glass Curtain"), I also got back two letters with all sort of junk from Morehead State attached. What was that all about? Sorry for re-running the "Raven" stuff again. I had thought that attachment wasn't attached when I read the stored letter. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- RAIL SPLITTER The Larry Lawrence saga is over, but--on the truthfulness front--I recently found this, one of the first citations for "Rail Splitter." ("Honest Abe.") It's from the New York Morning Express, 13 July 1860, pg. 1, col. 7: THE RAIL SPLITTER'S EARLY RECORD CORRECTED.--The Omaha Nebraskian, June 30, says: "An old citizen who traveled much in Illinois thirty years ago, and was especially acquainted with the district of country where Abe Lincoln resided, says that Abe never split a rail in his life. In those days, he says, the people never thought of such a thing as splitting rails. They went into the swamps and cut hoop poles and saplings for fences, and used them round, as nature made them." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- LOBBY Tour guides, again! My sister visited Washington, D. C. on business. She was told that Abe Lincoln used to stay at the hotel (I forget which, or maybe it was A hotel that USED to be there), and Lincoln spent much time in the lobby. It was from Lincoln's time spent in the 1860s in that lobby that we have our word "lobby" today. Uh, no. I've found "lobby" especially common in the 1850s. It was somewhat rare in the 1840s, and I haven't found it at all (OED has one citation) in the 1830s. This is from the New York American, 18 February 1843, pg. 2, col. 2: Albany, Wednesday, Feb, 15th. (...) The struggle for the "spoils" is intense beyond all description. Never, within the memory of man, was the Capital so overrun by office-seekers. The _lobby_ daily in attendance upon the Governor and Legislature is several hundred strong. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 12:43:38 EST From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: ADS luncheon: review In case you want to know what kind of place we're going to, I'll quote Barry Popik: Houlihan's (a restaurant chain) is not really a "New York" restaurant, but it's relatively inexpensive and it's close, so I guess it was the right choice. Yes, we found that all the "New York" alternatives in the neighborhood were regrettably closed for lunch on Saturday, or didn't have a private space for us. This time it will be the "food for thought" that is special. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:03:26 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: ADS-L RETURNED MAIL At 12:06 PM 12/22/97 EST, you (B. Popik) wrote: ADS-L RETURNED MAIL For my last two message ("Blackbirds" and "Glass Curtain"), I also got back two letters with all sort of junk from Morehead State attached. What was that all about? One can't say for sure without seeing the messages and full headers, but it sounds as if someone at Morehead State did not unsubscribe from the list before his or her account was closed. The esult would be that now posters to the list are getting "undeliverable message" bounces from that account's server. Send a copy of the bounce message to one of the ADS-L adminisrators and they can unsub the person manually -- I think that may be the only thing, or one of the only things, to be done at this point. People should unsubscribe before letting their account be closed. Someone -- one of the moderators if memory serves -- also mentioned that the DSNA (Dictionary Soc of North Amer) has a listserv DICTY, or something like that. I could not find any info about it on the DSNA website, which is http://www.csuohio.edu/dsna/. Does anyone know if that listserv exists at this point? Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 13:09:04 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: ADS-L RETURNED MAIL At 12:06 PM 12/22/97 EST, you (B. Popik) wrote: ADS-L RETURNED MAIL For my last two message ("Blackbirds" and "Glass Curtain"), I also got back two letters with all sort of junk from Morehead State attached. What was that all about? I see what you mean, after posting my last. Posters now get a list of about thirty "undeliverable" addresses from Morehead State, probably an entire class whose semester has apparently ended now. At least they don't send out 30 separate bounce-messages! Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 16:20:16 EST From: Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Test Hey folks, THis is a test note to see what Barry and Greg are talking about in terms of returns to posts. Bear with. Also, Greg and Barry. Could you forward to me what you got. The bounces should come to me and Jesse, not to you. -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 19:56:34 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: Re: "wig out" Until David Bergdahl's query about "wig out" a few days ago I had never come across this term. Now I see it in print in the newspaper _USA Today_, Dec. 22, 1997, sec. B, p.9/1-4; article title: "Microsoft Case Gets Mired In Jargon:" "...'Microsoft is really hoping that people who don't understand the complexity will wig out,' says Brett Glass, a computer programmer and consultant for _InfoWorld_. 'They're trying to tie things into a knot....'" The meaning of "wig out" here seems to be: "tune out mentally (because of mind-boggling complexity)." This, however, is evidently not the meaning of "wig out" as used by African-Americans; see my ads-l message of 12/21/97 quoting from Clarence Major's dictionary _From Juba to Jive_. If the speaker of the quote above (Brett Glass) is not African-American, we would see here the spread of "wig out" from a purely AA context with an apparent change of meaning. Whether this new usage takes hold remains to be seen. --Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 21:20:08 -0600 From: "Donald M. Lance" engdl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SHOWME.MISSOURI.EDU Subject: wig out I've heard the term with a meaning more like "flip out" than the "tune out" use that Jerry Cohen reported. I think I heard it in the '60s, beofre I came to Missouri. That wouldn't necessarily mean it was a Texas term back then. I assumed it was a '60s term used by anyone, white or black. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:44:44 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: ADS luncheon choices chicken flor is kewl with me ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Dec 1997 23:52:34 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: "wig out" Like Don Lance, I remember WIG OUT 'go crazy' from teen slang in the 1960s and maybe even 1950s. I would look for it in movies like REBEL WITHOUT A CAUSE and BLACKBOARD JUNGLE. My guess is that the source is NOT AAVE. I am not anyplace where I can check the standard sources on this, but I imagine that Jesse Sheidlower has something in his files on this. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Dec 1997 to 22 Dec 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 22 Dec 1997 to 23 Dec 1997 There are 11 messages totalling 823 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Canuck (Is there a Proto-Algonquian scholar in the house??) 2. "wig out" (6) 3. ADS-L RETURNED MAIL 4. wig out (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 03:23:03 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Canuck (Is there a Proto-Algonquian scholar in the house??) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --part0_882865386_boundary Content-ID: 0_882865386[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII --part0_882865386_boundary Content-ID: 0_882865386[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]inet_out.mail.aol.com.2 Content-type: message/rfc822 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Content-disposition: inline From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com Return-path: Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com To: frasers[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]the-wire.com Subject: Canuck Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 03:18:58 EST Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Minus the Algonquian. I'll get through this in 15 minutes this weekend, no problem. --Barry Popik AG=American Glossary ADD=American Dialect Dictionary DA=Dictionary of Americanisms DAE=Dictionary of American English DARE=Dictionary of American Regional English DCHP=Dictionary of Canadianisms on Historical Principles OEDS=Oxford English Dictionary, Supplement POPIK=Barry Popik (original material, not contained in any of these dictionaries) RHHDAS=Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang (1774 E. Long HIST. JAMAICA II III iii. 424 s.v., masquerader...dances at every doot, bellowing out _John Connu!_) OEDS (1812 Vaux VOCAB. _Knuck_, _knuckler_, or _knuckling cove_, a pickpocket.) OEDS, RHHDAS 1835 Todd NOTES UPON CANADA 92, Jonathan distinguishes a Dutch or a French Canadian, by the term _Kanuk_. DA, DARE, OEDS, RHHDAS (1838 Parker EXPLORING TOUR 354, The Sandwich islanders, or kanakas, as the common people are called, have less activity of mind and body than the Indians of our continent.) DA 1839 NEW YORK TIMES & COMMERCIAL ADVERTISER, 1 Oct. 2/2. The Buffalo Commercial Advertiser of Friday says:--For the last twenty-four hours we have experienced a strong "Northwestern," which has filled our harbor with with (sic) vessels of every description from the lubberly, uncouth "Cannuck" schooner, fifty tons, to the magnificent steamboat of five hundred. Those boats which left for the west yesterday, are reported to have made good the harbors of Erie and Dunkirk--and we have heard of no disaster except that the Cincinnati, a small boat running to the falls, is ashore on the Canadian side opposite Black Rock. POPIK 1840 BOSTON TRANSCRIPT 7 Feb. 2/1, The French-Canadian--or _Conuck_, as Her Majesty's provincial subjects of English and American extraction sometimes call him--can never, by any means be induced to lay "aside the adominable practice" (or smoking and chewing in church). DA, RHHDAS 1840 MACKENZIE'S GAZETTE (Rochester, N.Y.) 24 Oct. 24/3, Extract of a letter in the New York Era, dated Montreal, Sept. 11, 1840...I endeavored to persuade him that one of the objections made against Mr. Van Buren would apply to Gen. Harrison, as the latter had beaten their army at Fort Meigs. He said that story would'nt (sic) go down among the "Kennucks," and insisted upon it, offering to bet any wager he could prove that Harrison never did any injury to the British in his life! POPIK 1841 UNCLE SAM'S LARGE ALMANAC FOR 1842 25/1-2, The refugees from the troubles of the Northern colony have brought with them a name, which, being the result of an effort to pronounce their country and their history in one word, has come out Connucks...--_Journal of Commerce_ (N.Y.). POPIK (1843 NEW ORLEANS PICAYUNE 5 December 2/4, CANADA...The St. Catharine Journal states that there is serious trouble among the Irish laborers along the line of the Welland canal...A few days since a fracas occurred between the Corkonians and Connaught men...) POPIK 1845 NEW ORLEANS PICAYUNE 29 August 1/6, A lively correspondent of the Boston Atlas gives the following description of a fashionable _soiree_ at the Sault Ste. Marie:...Such a motley group I do not believe was ever before seen;--there were French, Canucks, Yankees and half-breeds. POPIK 1846 Stewart ALTOWAN 191, The Cannackers, as they were commonly called, set themselves quietly about reviving their fire. DAE, DARE (1848 BROOKLYN DAILY EAGLE 16 May 2/3, In the year 1835, I left the frontier settlement of the mighty west, and established a trading post on one of the tributaries of the great father of waters, among the Chippewas, Ottawas, and Pottawatamie Indians....I filled a pipe with Kinnaknick and offered it to him.) POPIK 1849 J. E. Alexander L' ARCADIE I. xvi. 273, Come boys and have some grog, I'm what you call a canuck. DCHP, OEDS, RHHDAS 1849 AMHERSTBURG COURIER & WESTERN DISTRICT ADVERTISER, 8 Sept. 3/2, It seems that Eastwood, who was in every respect an exemplary soldier, and was about to be transferred to the Royal Canadian Rifles, occupied the same room with Smith, and was finding fault with him, at seven o'clock on Thursday morning for making a disturbance during the night. Upon this, Smith became very insolent, and said, he was glad they were going to get rid or Eastwood, as he was going into the b----y Cannucks. POPIK 1855 Whitman LEAVES OF GRASS 29, Kanuck, Tuckahoe, Congressman, Cuff, I give them the same, I receive them the same. RHHDAS 1855 KNICKERB. XLV April 341, (Giving) our donkey into the keeping of a lively _Canuck_,...we commence the slow ascent (of Mt. Holyoke). AG, DAE, OEDS 1857 KNICKERB. XLIX Jan. 40, My grandfather got fifty (old French crowns) at once from a _Kanuck_ in trading. AG 1860 Holland MISS GILBERT'S CAREER ii. 29, I'll hang on the tail of it and try legs with that little Kanuck of his. DA, OEDS 1861 CANADIAN NATURALIST Dec. 432, I must add that it is somewhat supported...by the analogy of another term, namely _Canuc_, which is used vulgarly and rather contempuously for Canadian, and which seems to me to come from _Canuchsa_, the word employed by the Iroquois to denote a "hut." Here _Canadian_ would mean a "townsman" or "villager," but a _canuc_ would be only a "hutter." DCHP 1862 CONG. GLOBE 29 April 1867/3, They went...from St. Louis to Canada to buy the little Canuck ponies at $130 apiece. AG, DA, DAE, OEDS 1862 HARPER'S WEEKLY 5 July 432, (cartoon) LITTLE JOHNNY KANUCK. "Look here, Papa, you said if I'd abuse UNCLE SAM, you'd take my part when he came over to whip me." PAPA JOHN BULL. "Ah! bu that was before the rascal got his _Monitors_ and _Parrott Guns_. You must take care of yourself, young man." LITTLE JOHNNY KANUCK (_crying_). "Oh! oh! oh!" POPIK 1870 CANADIAN ILLUSTRATED NEWS 4 June 483/3, (poem) The Campaign of O'Neil the Brave...From their bould determination/ To make Canucks bite the dust/ And when you meet the Canuck knaves/ Cut up a thunderin' shindy... POPIK 1870 CANADIAN ILLUSTRATED NEWS 11 June 499/3, (poem) Uncle Sam and His Boys...But they fled like darned cowards/ Before the Canuck bands,/ And here am I, with all the crew/ Again upon my hands! POPIK 1871 De Vere AMERICANISMS 589, _Canacks_, _Canucks_, and even _K'nucks_, are slang terms by which Canadians are known in the United States. DAE, RHHDAS 1871 CANADIAN ILLUSTRATED NEWS 22 July 64, (cartoon) JOHNNY CANUCK'S IDEA OF IT. JONATHAN.--"I say, Johnny, your ma says I may fish in your pond, if you like." JOHNNY.--"Well! but I don't like!" POPIK 1873 Beadle UNDEVEL. WEST xxxiii. 711, The Yankee shudders as he thinks of the hard fate of the "Canucks" and "Blue-noses" of British America. DAE 1881-82 Howells MODERN INSTANCE 119, And Fridays I make up a sort of chowder for the Kanucks; they're Catholics, you know. RHHDAS 1883 MAGAZINE OF AMERICAN HISTORY Nov. 433/2, KANUCK--_Editor Magazine of American History_: Can you, or your readers, inform me as to what is the origin of the word _Kanuck_? TORONTO. OCTOBER 1, 1883. POPIK 1884 HARPER'S MAGAZINE LXIX June 125, The crews were carefully chosen; a "Kanuck," or French Canadian, at the oar or the "cordelle," the rope used to haul a boat up-stream. AG, DA, OEDS 1884 BOSTON GLOBE 7 Oct. 4/2, A Pickpocket from "Kanuck." Inspectors Burke and Knox arrested Joseph P. Porrier, a Frenchman, for picking pockets on Washington street...He says he belongs in Quebec, Canada. POPIK 1886 TORONTO CANUCKS (name of new baseball franchise in International League 1886-87, Association 1888-1890; disbanded, but new franchise with same name in Eastern League 1896-1900, renamed Toronto Royals in 1901). POPIK 1886 LIFE 13 May 272/2, CANOEING IN KANUCKIA. By Charles Ledyard Norton and John Habberton. Illustrated. G. P. Putnam's Sons. POPIK 1886 BROOKLYN DAILY TIMES 21 May 1/2, (titles) GOING FOR THE KANUCKS. /THE ADMINISTRATION ATTACK THE FISHERIES PROBLEM. POPIK 1886 PAP. MIL. HIST. SOC. MASS. XIII 27, They were...generally "Canucks," as the Canada horse is called. RHHDAS 1887 GRIP 19 Feb. 3/2, Who'll buy my caller herrin'?/Cod, turbot, ling, delicious herrin',/Buy my caller herrin',/They're every one Kanucks! DCHP 1887 GRIP 5 March 1/2, Well, what do you think of the Canuck elections? DCHP 1887 WASHINGTON POST 16 March 2/1, And the shrewd Kanuck would then float his catch outside the three-mile limit, and there, in the open sea, would sell it to the Yankee skipper with none to molest or make him afraid. POPIK 1888 C. D. Ferguson, EXP. FORTY-NINER ii. 23, I have often since thought it would be a good way to advertise horses...for certainly no frontier town ever saw a grander sight than those four Canucks. DA, DAE 1888 DOMINION ILLUSTRATED 199/1 (heading), Canuckiana. DCHP 1889 OUTING Mar. 505 (heading), Snowshoeing in Canuckia. DA 1889 Barrere & Leland DICT. SLANG I 224, _Canuck_ (American), a Canadian. The origin of this word appears to be unknown. The derivation from _Connaught_, an Irishman, is far-fetched and doubtful. It may be possibly the first syllable of _Can_ada, with an Indian termination, but this is mere conjecture. _Uc_ or _uq'_ is a common Algenkin ending to nouns. It is probably an Indian word modified. RHHDAS 1889 Donkin TROOPER & REDSKIN 148, But for pure and unadulterated brag I will back the lower class Canuck against the world. DCHP 1890 NATIONAL POLICE GAZETTE (N.Y.) 16 August 2/2, McKee Rankin produced "The Canuck," a four-act play, at the Bijou Theatre last week, and thereby set the theatrical ball in motion in New York, after a summer of extraordinary silliness. McKee Rankin, the hero of the play, a French Canadian, has a daughter who runs away and gets married to a man who already has a wife...The scene of "The Canuck" transpire in Vermont, New York and Canada...Wilton Lackaye impersonates a metropolitan sport of the day, in a blonde wig and a curling mustache. His slang phrases, "cuckoo," "bird," "lala," "daisy," caught the boys, and his eyes mashed the girls. POPIK 1891 Farmer-Henley SLANG 23, _Canack_, _Canuck_, _Kanuck_, _K'nuck_,...A Canadian, usually a _K'nuck_. DARE, F-H, RHHDAS 1892 Wentworth ADD 94, (Kans.) Chenuk=a Canadian. Note pron. (sic) Carruth. ADD 1892 Bierce BEETLES 28, I reckon when a man is too tough for the Canuck police he is tough enough for you to tackle. RHHDAS 1895 CENTURY MAG. Sept. 674/2, That would be convenient over the line among the Canucks. DAE, OEDS 1897 Howels LANDLORD AT LION'S HEAD (1908) vii. 30, "What's that?" "It's that Canuck chopping in Whitwell's clearing." DAE 1898 LIPPINCOTT'S MAGAZINE Jan. 131, (short story) CANUCK AND RAOUL....He looks about fourteen, and is called "C'nuck," in reference, I suppose, to his Canadian origin. POPIK 1898 (1967) Lefolii CANDIAN LOOK 13 (caption), Uncle Sam to Jack Canuck--"I hate to see any of the folks leaving home. But when they _do_ go I like to see 'em go to Canada where they'll feel at home and get square treatment. DCHP 1900 NORTH AMERICAN NOTES & QUERIES July 64/1, I would very much like to know the origin of the expression Canuck applied to the French Canadians. DCHP 1902 CANADIAN MAGAZINE (various cartoons), Jack Canuck and John Bull from the Toronto Daily Star, March 1902 pg. 477; Brother Jonathan mentions Jack Canuck from the Toronto World, April 1902, pg. 570; Jack Canuck from the Toronto Star and Jack Canuck from the Toronto World, pages 476-477, March 1903; et al. POPIK 1904 H. F. Day KIN O' KTAADN 145, "Roule, roulant, maboule roulant," it's all Canuck but a good song. OEDS 1905 DIALECT NOTES 3.7 (eCT), _Cunnuck_, _Canuck_, or _Knuck_....A Canadian. DARE 1907 Kennedy NEW CANADA 192, "And don't you want to be Americans any longer?" I asked. "No," said they most emphatically, "we're Canucks now." DCHP 1907 N.Y. EVE. POST 22 April 6, Polacks and Canucks have taken the places of most of the old-time American woodsmen in the Adirondacks. DAE 1907 BOSTON HERALD 2 June 2/4-6, (title) THE SNOWSHOE COURT THAT DISCOURAGED JOHNNIE CANUCK. (caption) How the Majesty of the Law Was Brought Home to Johnny Canuck. POPIK 1907 DIALECT NOTES 3.183 (seNH), _Canuck_...A French Canadian. _ibid_ 242 (eME), _Canuck_...A French-Canadian. DARE 1908 Beach BARRIER 28, I reckon when a man is too tough for the Canuck police he is tough enough for you to tackle. RHHDAS 1908 OBSERVER (Cowansville, Que.) 1 Oct. 1/6, The Toronto Globe has a cartoon wherein Jack Canuck is walking arm in arm with Laurier and saying, "I like to walk with a man who can set the pace for me." DCHP 1909 Cameron NEW NORTH 260, Failing any or all of these (desired trade goods), it was in vain that the Factor displayed before them the wares of John Bull, Uncle Sam, or Johnny Canuck, or any seductive lure made in Germany. DCHP 1910 Haydon RIDERS OF PLAINS 113, "Thar ain't no Johnny Canuck kin arrest me." DCHP 1910 T. E. Lawrence LETTERS 17 Dec. (1954) 121, The three Canuck priests. OEDS 1910 N.Y. EVE. JOURNAL 28 Mar. 10, The Yanks...itched to put it all over the Canucks. RHHDAS 1912 Roe WHISPERING HILLS 39, On the face of the swarthy Canuck guide who sat in the stern there was a weary contempt. DCHP 1914 AMER. LUMBERMAN 25 Apr. 33, But Joe, the Cook, a French Canuck/Said, "Paul, I tink it is ze luck." RHHDAS 1917 C. Matthewson SEC. BASE SLOAN xviii. 243 La Croix was a thick-set, hook- nosed Canuck. DAE 1917 VANCOUVER DAILY SUN 9 Nov. 3/5-7, (ad) Only "Canuck" Could Have Done It...Canuck Shot Shells...Dominion Cartridge Co., Limited, Montreal. POPIK 1918 LIT. DIGEST 20 April 80, The _poilu_, the Tommy, the Canuck, the Anzac. RHHDAS 1923 AERIAL AGE January 44/2, (ad) The "CANUCK"/a good plane at a right price/Everything for Canucks, JN4s and OX5 Motors/ERICSON AIRCRAFT LIMITED, 120 King E., Toronto, Canada. POPIK 1925 J. O'Hara SEL LETTERS 14, I to appear on your graduation day of thereabouts and force you into the Canuck trip by appealing to your sporting blood or something. RHHDAS 1926 Wentworth ADD 94, (Maine) =French Canadian. Obsolesc. ADD 1926 DIALECT NOTES 5.386 (ME), _Canuck_ (accent on second syl.), French- Canadian, obsol. DARE 1930 Irwin AMER. TRAMP 47, _Canuck,_--In the United States, any Canadian; properly, in Canada, a French-Canadian. DARE 1933-34 "Max Brand" MT. RIDERS 8, A peevish Canuck one day threw an axe at him. RHHDAS 1934 Wentworth ADD 94, Slang. In U. S. often=any Canadian; in Canada=only French Canadian. Web. ADD 1938 Holbrook MACKINAW 95, By the time Michigan timber was petering out, Scandinavians were as numerous as Canucks. RHHDAS 1938 AMER. SPEECH Apr. 156, _Canuck_, a Canadian Curtis plane. RHHDAS 1939 Wolcott YANKEE COOK BOOK 339 (NEng.), The ritual (of maple sugaring) begins... Father and the hired man and Uncle John and Allie from back of the mountain, the Coffin boys and Pops Talley and Jean, the Canuck, bore and hang, estimate the run, hazard weather predicitions--there is no lack of willing hands during the sapping season. DARE 1941 DIME COMICS (first appearance of Johnny Canuck, the eponymous strongman hero created by artist Leo Bachle). POPIK 1942 ME Univ. STUDIES 56.12, Canadian French were Canucks; South Sea islanders, especially Hawaiians, were kanakas, a name quite unrelated to Canuck. DARE 1946 VANCOUVER CANUCKS (name of new Western Hockey League franchise that joined the National Hockey League in 1970). POPIK 1947 DeVoto ACROSS WIDE MISSOURI 197, They chattered...and mingled with the halfbreeds of all tribes and their dear friends the Yankees, Canucks, Mexicans, and Kanakas. DA 1953 Berrey & Van Den Bark AMERICAN THESAURUS OF SLANG, 3rd ed. pg. 48: CANADA. Canuckland, Kanuckland, Jack Canuck's country, Land of the Bing Boys, Land of the Pea-Souper. pg. 188: FOREIGN LANGUAGE. Canuck, Kanuck, _French-Canadian_. pg. 346: CANADIAN. Bing Boy. _Spec._ Canuck, Jack Canuck, Kanuck, _esp. a French-Canadian_. 1953 Roche HOCKEY BOOK xvii, There were baseball, football & lacrosse game during other seasons, but in winter there was nothing but idleness for red- blooded, sports-loving Johnny Canucks. DCHP 1954 Boehm RAID (film), "I'm Canadian." "We'll take Canucks." RHHDAS 1957 CANADIAN RED CROSS JUNIOR Nov. 17, John comes into many nicknames, here are a few of them, John Bull...Johnny Canuck, a Canadian soldier, and Johnny Raw, a new recruit. DCHP 1958 McCulluoch WOODS WORDS 29 (Pacific NW), _Canucker_--A logger from north of the border. DARE 1958 (1971) Kerouac SUBTERRANEANS 5, I am a Canuck, I could not speak English till I was 6 or 6, at 16 I spoke with a halting accent. DARE 1959 VT HIST. new ser. 27.129 (nVT), Canuck...French Canadian. DARE 1959 MACLEAN'S 1 Aug. 1/2, Millions of Asians, Africans and Europeans who'll never see a travelling hockey team or a cartoon of Johnny Canuck, have only one image: the men and women of our foreign service. DCHP 1963 GLOBE AND MAIL 2 Feb. 6/1, Any trend by the big brother to the south to tell Canadians how to run their affairs can raise Canuck dander very quickly. DCHP 1963 CITIZEN 30 May 12/5, What is the origin of the nickname Jack Canuck? It probably comes from the name Connaught, the nickname given more than 100 years ago by French Canadians to Canadians of Irish origin. DCHP 1964 CANADA MONTH Jan. 38/2, That's the spirit of USA which Johnny Canuck will never catch up with. DCHP 1964 CALGARY HERALD 19 March 18/6, The Scottish skip missed a wide open takeout in the fifth leaving the Canucks another single. OEDS 1965 H. Gold MAN WHO WAS NOT WITH IT xxvi. 249, _Bon jour, Grack, tu viens enfin_? That's Canuck for you ain't been a son to your ma. OEDS 1965 Linakis IN SPRING 34, This didn't include limeys and canucks. RHHDAS 1965-1970 DARE (Qu. HH28) 165 Infs (chiefly Nth, esp. NEast), Canuck; (MA45) French Canuck; (CT23) French-Canadian Canuck. DARE 1967 Lefolii CANADIAN LOOK 10/3, As far as I know, Johnny made his first appearance as a cartoon character in an 1869 copy of Grinchuckle (pg. 12), a new Montreal journal that billed itself as "a magazine of mirth and opinion." The cartoonist had already translated Johnny into a Western hat and vaguely British field uniform and used him as a symbol for young Canadians regardless of language. DCHP 1968-70 DARE Tape (CA) 103, This lady...is a Canuck. You know who a Canuck is? (FW:) No. (INF:) A Canadian; (MI121) Quite a few of the new settlers came from Ontario--Canadians--Canucks we called 'em. DARE 1969 DARE FW (Addit. VT), I can call myself a Canuck, but you'd better not call me one. DARE 1970 M. Orkin SPEAKING CANADIAN ENGLISH 68, The early Canadianisms which have remained are deeply embedded in our history..._Canuck_ (1849)... POPIK 1972 Bernstein & Woodward PRESIDENT'S MEN 132, We don't have blacks but we have Cannocks. RHHDAS 1975 R. Comely CAPTAIN CANUCK No. 1 July (comic book). POPIK 1975 AMERICAN SPEECH vol. 50, Summer, 158-160, "THE ETYMOLOGY OF _CANUCK_" (Jacob Adler of the University of Hawaii at Manoa argues for _kanaka-Canuck_, but without historical citations; a letter by Mitford M. Matthews of the DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS that supports _kanaka_ is reprinted). POPIK 1975 McCraig DANGER TRAIL 3, The Canuck government is...closing down the whisky forts. RHHDAS 1975 Gould ME LINGO 42, _Canuck_--The word originated in Maine lumber camps for a French-Canadian working in the Maine woods. It did not mean a French- Canadian anywhere else, and when a British-Columbia hockey team called itself the _Canucks_ the word was far afield. Over the years, as _Canuck_ took on an objectionable tone, the word has been superceded somewhat by _Kaybecker_... French-speaking Canadians from Quebec were _Canucks_. DARE 1978 AMERICAN SPEECH vol. 53, fall, 176-178 (James Sledd of the University of Texas at Austin follows the 1975 article and also argues for _kanaka-Canuck_, but also does not consider Algonquian sources). POPIK 1979 Terkel AMER. DREAMS XVIII, You room with a French Canuck. RHHDAS 1984 E. Partridge DICTIONARY OF SLANG AND UNCONVENTIONAL ENGLISH, 8th ed., 180, Canuck, occ. Canack, K(a)nuck. A Canadian: in England, from ca. 1915. Orig (1855) a Can. and American term for a French Canadian, which, inside Canada, it still means. Etymology obscure: perhaps _Can_ada + _uc_ (_uq_), the Algonquin n.-ending; W., however, proposes, I think rightly, ex _Canada_ after _Chinook_. 1984 N.Y. TIMES BOOK REVIEW 1 Jan. 3, Me? I'm just a Canuck. RHHDAS 1994 N.Y. TIMES WEEK IN REVIEW 12 June E5/4-5, "Just as well call Americans Yanks, we call Canadians Canucks," said Lisa Ryan, a spokeswoman for the Vancouver Canucks. "It's much like the New York Yankees."...Ms. Ryan said a lot of people have lately been asking about the Canuck name and how it was chosen, but nothing has been found in the archives to explain it. The team began in 1970 as the third National Hockey League team in Canada, following Toronto and Montreal. Maybe it was simply that the Montreal club already owned the appellation Canadiens....The term Canuck was apprently first used in a 1849 (sic) travel book...The word again surfaced in a story in The New York Times of 1865 tracing the path of John Wilkes Booth. In a game of billiards a year before he assassinated Lincoln, Booth is quoted as admiring the "Canadian style," whatever that was. He said, "I must post myself in Canuck airs, for some of us devils may have to settle there shortly"...In a 1972 letter, Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau said some think the term "Canuck" applies to all Canadians, some to Eastern Canadians, some to French Canadians. Is it nasty? "Whether or not you commited an ethnic slur," he said, "depends entirely on the way the word is used." POPIK 1994 TORONTO STAR 24 Sept., (Words by Lew Gloin) Canuck? Who uses the bloody words, anyway? Well, several Star writers and the editor-in-chief of Canadian dictionaries for Oxford University Press, that's who, for starters. POPIK --part0_882865386_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 07:06:20 -0800 From: Judi Sanders jasanders[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPOMONA.EDU Subject: Re: "wig out" Tom Dalzell's book, Flapper 2 Rappers, says it was both mainstream and hippie slang of the 60s. At least on the West Coast, the term (meaning "to go crazy") is still current and was reported at UCLA and CPP this year. Judi Sanders ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dr. Judi Sanders Professor, Communication Cal. State Polytechnic U., Pomona The Web: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders The College Slang Page: http://www.intranet.csupomona.edu/~jasanders/slang ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:10:07 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: "wig out" At 07:06 AM 12/23/97 -0800, you wrote: Tom Dalzell's book, Flapper 2 Rappers, says it was both mainstream and hippie slang of the 60s. At least on the West Coast, the term (meaning "to go crazy") is still current and was reported at UCLA and CPP this year. Judi Sanders First place I heard it was from urban NYCity working-class 20-year-olds that I was teaching at a branch of CUNY as a grad student in the later 1980's. The sense from context was to flip out or go crazy or get upset. Cf. the older "flip one's wig," which (without research) I always took it to be a variant of. Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:12:45 EST From: Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MOREHEAD-ST.EDU Subject: Re: ADS-L RETURNED MAIL Folks, The problems that Barry and Gregory reported yesterday were the function of a system halt at MSU that corrupted the student filesystem. Everything should be running fine now, but who knows? -- Virtually, Terry (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:16:54 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: "wig out" Treppenwitz: I said: "Cf. the older "flip one's wig," which (without research) I always took it to be a variant of. Is "flip one's wig" older than "wig out"? I haven't the ref-bks to check here at the office, but I'd heard "flip one's wig" years before "wig out," and just assumed (wrongly?) that the latter was newer, especially since my sense is that "[verb] out" was a common beatnik/hippie formula, which would date such locutions to the 60s or 50s at the earliest (cop out, space out, wig out, etc.). Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:20:03 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: wig out I hadn't been reading the messages in this thread, so excuse me for jumping in so late. I'm surprised that many people seem unfamiliar with the expression _wig out,_ or with its age--I've always regarded it as a stereotypical 1960s term, along with _groovy_ and the like. As with _groovy,_ _wig out_ was originally a jazz-world expression. I don't have access to our W files right now but there's no question that the word was in use in the early 1950s at latest. It appears in _American Speech_ XXX in a list of Wayne State U. slang in 1955. The meaning runs the usual gamut--'to be excited', 'to lose control', etc. The sense that Jerry Cohen quotes from USA Today, apparently meaning 'tune out', is an anomaly in my experience. I don't think of _wig out_ as being AAVE. It probably does come from _flip one's lid/wig,_ which we have in HDAS from the early 1930s. Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 10:56:45 +0000 From: David Bergdahl bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OAK.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: wig out I don't think of _wig out_ as being AAVE. It probably does come from _flip one's lid/wig,_ which we have in HDAS from the early 1930s. Jesse Sheidlower Random House Reference jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com My source was the Al Young novel SNAKES which treats AA street life so my first notice of the term was in that context. -- _____________________________________________________________________ david.bergdahl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ohiou.edu Ohio University / Athens http://oak.cats.ohiou.edu/~bergdahl Ellis Hall 114c tel: (740) 593-2783 [no office hrs during fax: (740) 593-2818 break, only by appt] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:08:41 EST From: Dfcoye Dfcoye[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: "wig out" I always thought it was a playful variation of 'to flip your wig'- going back to the 80s for me. Dale Coye The College of NJ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:33:34 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: "wig out" At 11:08 AM 12/23/97 EST, you wrote: I always thought it was a playful variation of 'to flip your wig'- going back to the 80s for me. Dale Coye The College of NJ I think Sheidlower had it -- "to flip one's wig" is from the 30's or so, and was later put through the beatnik lens of "to [verb] out" in the 50's, which then passed into the larger speech-community. If "flip one's wig" originated in the early 30's or so, one wonders whether it was generated by the visual imagery of motion-picture cartoons, which in their "sound" versions were coming into their own in the early 30's -- or, on the other hand, did the phrase grow from the idea of visually portraying a cartoon character's surprise or excitement (etc.) by having its hair (etc.) flip into the air and then fall back onto the head. A chicken and egg question, perhaps. Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 11:37:29 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Re: "wig out" Garbled that last message -- am actually supposed to be concentrating on filling out grade sheets. What I meant to wonder was whether cartoon imagery in the early 30's or so generated "flip one's wig," or vice versa (or maybe both, or neither, or maybe it's more complicated than that). Just a (garbled) thought).... Back to paperwork.... Gregory {Greg} Downing, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 23 Dec 1997 15:56:27 -0800 From: "Thomas L. Clark" tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Re: wig out Used in Seattle (Ballard neighborhood) in 1953 by teenagers who knew our parents would wig out if they caught us smoking cigarettes. Thomas L. Clark Department of English University of Nevada, Las Vegas Las Vegas NV 89154-5011 tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu 702/895-3473 FAX 702/895-4801 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Dec 1997 to 23 Dec 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 23 Dec 1997 to 24 Dec 1997 There are 4 messages totalling 122 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "Dylanist" 2. Season's Greetings (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 14:32:03 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: "Dylanist" I thought this might be appropriate in light of the recent Kennedy Center award ceremony. My daughter was surfing the Web and came across the term "Dylanist," defined as follows by a 12 year old girl: "Dylanists are musicians who's songs are nonsense when analyzed. Mainly, Dylanist music sticks in your head and drives you nuts." Frankly, I'd never seen the word before and would've assumed a "Dylanist" was someone who studied Bob Dylan. But a quick Web-search turned up a different definition. Anne McCaffrey's sci-fi novel _The Ship Who Sang_ says this: "A Dylanist is a social commentator, a protester, using music as a weapon, a stimulus. A skilled Dylanist ... can make so compelling an argument with melody and words that what he wants to say becomes insinuated into the sub-conscious... You can imagine how effective that is when you're proselytizing for a cause." There is also a novel by Brian Morton called _The Dylanist_, but I can't find anything else about it. So is anyone familiar with this term and its usage? Alan B. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 19:00:07 -0500 From: Barnhart barnhart[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HIGHLANDS.COM Subject: Season's Greetings Dear All, Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Joyous Kwanza. Are there dialectal variations in these? Regards, David, Hollis, William and Grant Barnhart ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 21:49:22 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: Season's Greetings Barnhart wrote: Dear All, Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Joyous Kwanza. Are there dialectal variations in these? Apparently there is for Kwanza, anyway, though it may not be dialectal. In Virginia, it's spelled Kwanzaa , and a recent newspaper article actually pointed out that the Swahili word for "first" is "kwanza," but that a final -a had been added to the festival's name. It didn't explain who added the -a or why, and I note that the RHD (Unabridged) spells it "Kwanza" in good Swahili. So is there regional variation in the American spelling of this relatively new holiday or just general inconsistency? And why the un-African -aa spelling in the first place? Alan B. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Dec 1997 22:25:54 -0500 From: Laurence Horn laurence.horn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALE.EDU Subject: Re: Season's Greetings At 9:49 PM -0500 12/24/97, Alan Baragona wrote: Barnhart wrote: Dear All, Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Joyous Kwanza. Are there dialectal variations in these? Not exactly dialectal differences, but I think the Brits say Happy Christmas, and there are different transcription traditions for representing Hanukkah/Chanuka/... Apparently there is for Kwanza, anyway, though it may not be dialectal. In Virginia, it's spelled Kwanzaa , and a recent newspaper article actually pointed out that the Swahili word for "first" is "kwanza," but that a final -a had been added to the festival's name. It didn't explain who added the -a or why, and I note that the RHD (Unabridged) spells it "Kwanza" in good Swahili. So is there regional variation in the American spelling of this relatively new holiday or just general inconsistency? And why the un-African -aa spelling in the first place? Alan B. Not sure, but it might be worth remembering that this traditional holiday was initated by Ron Karenga of UCLA during the late 1960's (I was there at the time); I believe he later adopted a different first name (Maulana?). Actually, his choice of the -aa spelling would be appropriate, now that I think of it, since the holiday is presumably named not for the verb _kwanza_ 'to begin', but for its nominal derivative _kwanzaa_ 'first fruits of the harvest'. But if I recall my Swahili, the universal penultimate stress of the language extends to double vowels, so that it "should" then be pronounced kwanZAa and it never is. The -aa final is not un-African in any case; certainly it's not particularly rare in Swahili, although it may occur more frequently in Arabic loans. Larry ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Dec 1997 to 24 Dec 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 24 Dec 1997 to 25 Dec 1997 There are 3 messages totalling 238 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Season's Greetings 2. Canuck (part two) 3. AMISTAD anachronisms ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 00:10:18 -0500 From: Alan Baragona baragonasa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX.VMI.EDU Subject: Re: Season's Greetings Laurence Horn wrote: Not sure, but it might be worth remembering that this traditional holiday was initated by Ron Karenga of UCLA during the late 1960's (I was there at the time); I believe he later adopted a different first name (Maulana?). Actually, his choice of the -aa spelling would be appropriate, now that I think of it, since the holiday is presumably named not for the verb _kwanza_ 'to begin', but for its nominal derivative _kwanzaa_ 'first fruits of the harvest'. But if I recall my Swahili, the universal penultimate stress of the language extends to double vowels, so that it "should" then be pronounced kwanZAa and it never is. The -aa final is not un-African in any case; certainly it's not particularly rare in Swahili, although it may occur more frequently in Arabic loans. Larry That's interesting. So is RHD simply wrong to spell it Kwanza ? A quick search on the web turns up Kwanzaa almost exclusively. Even when I searched for Kwanza , I came up with numerous hits, but when I went to the sites, the spelling still had -aa (so frankly I'm not sure why I got hits for -a). Alan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 05:19:59 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Canuck (part two) From UNKIND WORDS: ETHNIC LABELING FROM REDSKIN TO WASP, Irving Lewis Allen (Bergin & Garvey, 1990). Pg. 59: The name _canuck_ was not traditionally considered derogatory by either Francophones or Anglophones in Canada, though it may have later become so in the knowledge of how the term was used in the United States. Note the name of the Vancouver Canucks, a famous hockey team. In popular culture, the name also become a symbol of Canada, in the personification of Johnny Canuck, much like John Bull for England and Uncle Sam for the United States. One no less than Prime Minister Pierre Elliott Trudeau in 1977 said he had never heard the name used pejoratively in Canada. But Quebeckers in the United States consider _canuck_ highly offensive, about the worst name they can be called. Anglophone Canadians and Americans around the border of the New England states and Quebec probably applied the name _canuck_ to the lower- status, French-speaking Acadians. The name, while not necessarily offensive in Canada, was nonetheless offensive to Francophone immigrants who felt marginal in New England. In the 1972 Presidential primaries, a rumor was circulated that Maine's Senator Edmund Muskie, who is of Polish background, had referred to U. S. Quebeckers as "canucks"--and that is a fighting word in Maine. The dirty trick brought Muskie temporary embarrassment and required strong denials. pp. 61-62: The name, in its early history, might have been borrowed from the speech of an early Canadian minority as an informal name for that group. Later it somehow emerged as a national symbol of all Candians, and yet later, in its unfavorable sense, settled upon Francophone Canadians in the United States. W. W. Schuhmacher's hypothesis (1989) ("Once More Canuck," AMERICAN SPEECH, vol. 64, pg. 149--ed.) that _canuck_ derives from a blend of the _can_ of _Canadian_ and the _nuk_ of the Inuit or Eskimo word _inuk_ for "man" or "Eskimo," would support such a word history. Mitford Mathews (1975), on the other hand, argued that _canuck_ derives from _kanacka_, Hawaiian for "man," which was borrowed from and used for indentured Sandwich Islanders who served as canoemen in colonial Canada. The spelling of the first syllables of _Canadian_ and _canuck_ at any rate accounts for the popular etymology that _canuck_ came from _canada_ and _Canadian_. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- From WICKED WORDS, Hugh Rawson (Crown, 1989). pg. 72: _Canuck_. A Canadian, specifically, a French Canadian. Despite the presence of the Vancouver Canucks team in the National Hockey League, the term usually is considered derogatory, especially when used by a non-Canadian. "...we don't have blacks but we have Cannocks (sic)" (letter to William Loeb, publisher, Manchester, New Hampshire, _Union Leader_, 2/24/72). This particular insult is of some historical importance, since it affected the course of American politics. The letter to Loeb attributed the comment to an aide to Senator Edmund Muskie (Democrat, Maine), then the front-runner in the contest for his party's presidential nomination. The aide supposedly made the remark at a meeting in Florida, and Muskie supposedly condoned it, telling the audience to "Come to New England and see." With two weeks to go before the New Hampshire primary, in which thousands of quondam French Canadians were eligible to vote, Loeb published the letter, together with a front-page editorial, headlined "Senator Muskie Insults Franco-Americans." Muskie lost his composure when responding to this assault and to a derogatory report about his wife that also appeared in the _Union Leader_, and his campaign proceeded to fall apart. The missive, which soon became known as "The Canuck Letter," was arguably the most successful of the dirty tricks that were perpetrated on behalf of President Richard M. Nixon during the '72 campaign. Ken W. Clawson, White House deputy director of communications, later boasted privated--and denied publicly--that he had written the spurious letter. (...) The origin of _Canuck_ is curiously uncertain. On the face of it, the word would appear to derive from the first syllable of Canada, Other guesses have been made, however, e.g., that it comes from _Johnny Canuck_, a cartoon character of the eighteenth and nineteenth century, similar to John Bull and Uncle Sam; that it comes from _Connaught_, originally used by French Canadians to refer to Irish immigrants; and that it is a variant of the Hawaiian _kanaka_, man, brought by whalers back to New England, who residents then applied the term to their neighbors to the North. The last theory, as farfetched as it might seem, is reinforced by the earliest known spelling of the word: _Kanuk_ (OED, 1835). Walt Whitman was edging closer to the modern spelling when he wrote--referring to all Canadians, not just those of French extraction--in _Leaves of Grass_ (1855): Kanuck, Tuckahoe, Congressman, Cuff, I give them the same, I receive them the same. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- From THE VANCOUVER CANUCKS STORY, Dennis Boyd (McGraw-Hill, 1973). pg. 35: Following a lavish cocktail reception at the bayshore Inn, Walters was quoted as questioning the propriety of the word "canucks." He mused, "I'm not completely sold on the team name. The word Canucks strikes me as a slang expression that I don't particularly like. If there are no serious objections from the fans, we are going to consider a change." Well, Walters might just as well have suggested adding a couple of stars to the Canadian flag. Reaction in Vancouver was scorchingly indignant, Tides rose three feet in English Bay, the Fraser Street Bridge jammed in shock and the Canucks' switchboard was assaulted with calls from Canada-Firsters. Scallen threw in the towel on that one, saying that he and Walters had been advised that the name derived from the legendary figure of Johnny Canuck "the Canadian fighting man." We intend to have a fighting hockey team so we're happy to let the name stand." Score one for the Canucks' public relations department. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- From SHANTIES FROM THE SEVEN SEAS, Stan Hugill (1961; Mystic Seaport Museum, 1994). pp. 211-212: A very fine halyard shanty closely related to _Mobile Bay_ is _John Kanaka_. This is the first time it has been in print. I learnt it from that wonderful shantyman, Harding of Barbadoes. He sang it with many falsetto yelps and hitches almost impossible to imitate. The chorus is of Polynesian origin and I should say the words "tulai e" were Samoan. It has the not so common form of three solos and three refrains. Dana in his _Two Years Before the Mast_ refers to the signing of work- songs by the Kanaka (Hawaiian) crews of ships loading hides on the Californian coast. In particular he mentions the singing-out of a certain Hawaiian called Mahana (page 120). It seems feasible that these Kanaka songs would be adapted for use by the white seamen, who would give them white men's solos nad keep the Polynesian refrains. If this did occur, then, unfortunately, they have all been lost--unless our _John Kanaka_ is the one survivor. JOHN KANAKA I heard, I heard the Old Man say, John Kana kanaka tu lai e! Today, today is a holiday, John Kana kanaka tu lai e! Tu lai e, ooh! Tu lai e John Kana kanaka tu lai e! We'll work termorrer, but no work terday, _Chorus_ _John_ Kanaka-naka, _tu_lai-e! We'll work termorrer, but no work terday, _Chorus_ _John_ Kanaka-naka, _tu_lai-e! Tulai e! ooh! tulai-e! _Chorus_ _John_ Kanaka-naka, _tu_lai-e! We're bound away for 'Frisco Bay, We're bound away at the break o' day, Tulai e, _etc._ We're bound away around Cape Horn, We wisht ter Christ we'd niver bin born. Oh, haul, oh haul, oh haul away, Oh, haul away an' make yer pay. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- From THE DICTIONARY OF AMERICANISMS, John Bartlett (1848). KINNIKINNICK. An Indian word for a composition of dried leaves and bark prepared for smoking, used in the Western States in place of tobacco. A little tobacco is sometimes mixed with it to give it a flavor. (Appendix) CONIACKER. A counterfeiter of coin. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Dec 1997 22:14:58 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: AMISTAD anachronisms "Hello! I'm your attorney, Roger Baldwin." Hello? Hel-LO! Mr. Speilberg? Yeah, I'm glad I got you on the line. I have this book in front of me called AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS. "Hello" is the word-of-the-year for 1885! It came into use with the telephone. Your film AMISTAD takes place in 1839, over two generations before-- Hello? Hello? Hell-o? That was perhaps the worst offense. Conspicuous by their absence were "nigger" and "Negro." Aw c'mon, NOBODY said that?? A banner read "Re-elect President Martin Van Buren." The words "re- elect" would not have been used at this time. Also, the election was in 1840, not in 1839--when we first see this. Anthony Hopkins does a wonderful job with his John Quincy Adams; Matthew McConnaughey first struck me as someone from the south, then as someone from the 1990s, then I don't know what. His motivation for trying the case was never fleshed out in the script. On the "context" side, Anthony Hopkins's speech before the U. S. Supreme Court was pure 1990s and contained little or nothing of the legal argument he actually used that won the case. On the "technology" side, a bicycle is shown a little too early for my taste. I object to the cause-and-effect ending. It's stated that Martin Van Buren lost the Presidential election to William Henry Harrison. This is true. The Amistad case is true also. But one truism had little to do with the other. Van Buren would have lost, Amistad or no Amistad. The Civil War is briefly shown. Amistad was certainly a special case and the Civil War--about twenty years later--did not result from the Amistad verdict. Curiously, the Dred Scott decision is not mention. What about THAT, Mr. Spielberg? Didn't THAT result in the Civil War? And while we're on that, how come people in 1839-1841 keep saying "Civil War," anyway? How'd they know what to call it? About three speakers all called it by that name! Regardless of all this, it's a pretty good movie, and you can read the ADS interview with the credited "dialect coach" in AMERICAN SPEECH--no, that publication doesn't think movies exist--you can read the ADS interview with the credited "dialect coach" in AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH ONLINE--no, we don't have that... ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Dec 1997 to 25 Dec 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 25 Dec 1997 to 26 Dec 1997 There are 4 messages totalling 91 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. NYTimes today 2. movie anachronisms 3. WEIRD EXISTENTIAL (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 07:35:38 EST From: CLAndrus CLAndrus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: NYTimes today On page A39 of today's NY Times, there is an interesting Op-Ed piece titled "The Talk of the Year" about the most used cliches, etc. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 13:16:35 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: movie anachronisms Thanks for the list from AMISTAD. Last night I watched a movie that was supposed to be taking place in 1938-44, THE ENGLISH PATIENT, in which a dying young Canadian says about another solider, "He bought it yesterday" (meaning 'he got killed yesterday'). That didn't strike me as 1940s slang, either (I assumed it came from the Viet Nam War phrase, HE BOUGHT THE FARM). But I got out my trusty Random House DAS and found out that "He bought it" dates back to WWI, and was still current in WWII. Hooray for Lighter and Sheidlower! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 13:21:46 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: WEIRD EXISTENTIAL I recently had a two-hour conversation with my real-estate-lending agent. He has a peculiar syntactic form that I wonder if is just an idiosyncrasy or if others are familir with it as well. He begins sentences with IS THAT used as an existential, as in "Okay. Is that we have to see copies of your 1996 tax returns." "Well, now, thats done. Is that we need to calculate your gross income for 1997." This guy is a native speaker. Born in New York. Is he weird or what? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Dec 1997 14:24:30 -0500 From: "Dennis R. Preston" preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PILOT.MSU.EDU Subject: Re: WEIRD EXISTENTIAL Ron, I will retire this comment if 'is that' turns out to be such an item, but I wonder if you have misheard a fast speech realization of 'it is that'? This is still odd but is at least a construction which could have been more resonably worked into the usage you describe. This form (especially with 'just') seems to occur pretty often in quasi-apologetic 'what next' kinds of situations. For example, 'OK, we did that. It's (just) that we have to go on and figure out your ...' (made-up data). Dennis I recently had a two-hour conversation with my real-estate-lending agent. He has a peculiar syntactic form that I wonder if is just an idiosyncrasy or if others are familir with it as well. He begins sentences with IS THAT used as an existential, as in "Okay. Is that we have to see copies of your 1996 tax returns." "Well, now, thats done. Is that we need to calculate your gross income for 1997." This guy is a native speaker. Born in New York. Is he weird or what? Dennis R. Preston Department of Linguistics and Languages Michigan State University East Lansing MI 48824-1027 USA preston[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu Office: (517)353-0740 Fax: (517)432-2736 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Dec 1997 to 26 Dec 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 26 Dec 1997 to 27 Dec 1997 There are 8 messages totalling 503 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Podunk (2) 2. Christmas Potpourri (Fresh Air Fund, Tenement, Blind Tiger, etc.) 3. Wait Till Next Year 4. Rubber game (Was Re: Christmas Potpourri....) 5. Betting pot (Was Re: Christmas Potpourri....) 6. movie non-anachronism 7. "Mudville" update ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 03:48:27 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Podunk AMERICA IN SO MANY WORDS uses the OED citation and has "Podunk" as the word-of-the-year for 1846. Unfortunately, neither the RHHDAS nor DARE is up to "P." (Or maybe fortunately, since this antedate could get in.) The name "Podunk" itself goes back to at least 1666; the DA's first 19th-century citation is in 1841. I can't recall if I thoroughly checked the Boston TOKEN annual almanacs a few years ago. This is from the Southern Citizen (Asheboro, North Carolina), 6 December 1839, pg. 4, col. 2: MISCELLANEOUS (From The Token, Boston--1840) THE POLITICIAN OF PODUNK. Solomon Waxend was a shoemaker of Podunk, a small village of New Uork some forty years ago. He was an Englishman by birth, and had come over the water to mend the institutions, as well as the _soles_, of the country. He was a perfectly honest man, and of natural good sense; but having taken pretty large doses of new light from the works of Tom Paine and the French Revolutionists, he became, like an inflated balloon, light-headed, and soared aloft into the unknown regions of air.--Like many of his countrymen brought up under monarchical institutions, he was slow in understanding the mysteries of our political system; and wanting the ballast of _Yankee_ common sense, he nevertheless thought himself specially qualified to instruct the people of Podunk in every thing relating to civil liberty. (...) Puck of 26 June 1889, pg. 293, col. 2 has a cartoon called "NEW IN PODUNK." Uncle Abner receives his city niece's present of slippers and says, "Wife, I'll bet four dollars them slippers was made for some dood thet don't cross his legs!" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 03:50:06 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Christmas Potpourri (Fresh Air Fund, Tenement, Blind Tiger, etc.) CHRISTMAS POTPOURRI "Wait till next year" and "Podunk" deserved their own entries. Here are a few smaller items from my files. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- FRESH AIR FUND I mistakenly left this item off of my Christmas philanthropy posting. The DA's earliest citation for "Fresh Air Fund" is the New York Tribune of 2 July 1882. The second citation (Scribner's Magazine, April 1891) seemingly goes into detail of how it all started in a small hamlet in northeastern Pennsylvania, but that citation provides no date. This is from the Richmond (VA) Dispatch, 21 July 1874, pg. 2, col. 3: The money collected in the large cities to pay the expenses of children's excursions is called the "Fresh-Air Fund." The Baltimore _Gazette_ reminds the people of Baltimore that their funds for the recruitment of the poor children are rather low. Yes; we know no place which needs so much a very large fund of fresh air as Baltimore--particularly in the region of the basin! ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- TENEMENT I checked a New York Public Library microfilm reel of tenement pamphlets. Most interesting was THE TENEMENT HOUSES OF NEW YORK CITY/ A CONTRIBUTION TO THE STUDY BY THE TENEMENT HOUSE BUILDING CO (1891). Page 3 opens with, "The first tenement-house in America was built in 1838 in Cherry Street, and only a stone's throw from the site of the model houses of the Tenement-House Building Company." 1838? How come OED has 1858? How come both the Lower East Side Tenement Museum and the ENCYCLOPEDIA OF NEW YORK CITY don't record this? Don't look too hard for it on Cherry Street. I think it's now the Brooklyn Bridge. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- BLIND TIGER The following certainly helps determine the origins of "speakeasy" and "blind tiger." It's from the New York Press, 3 May 1897, pg. 2, col. 3: The serving of liquor in coffee cups was said to have begun last night. This is on the same level as the "Speakeasy" of Pennsylvania and the "Blind Tiger" of South Carolina, and the authorities expect to have no trouble in suppressing it. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- JAG The RHHDAS has a nice entry and some 1890s citations for "jag," but I like this one, from Vogue, vol. III, no. 7, 1894, pg. 4, col. 2: CORRECT SHE: "What is 'jag' derived from?" HE: "Jug, my dear." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- DEGREES OF DRUNKENNESS Before the six degrees of separation were the degrees of drunkenness. I can't find all of them now, but one of my earliest is this, from the New-York Mirror, 21 May 1825, pg. 343, col. 2: A gentleman perceiving a man swallowing liquor from a thermometer, inquired of a bystander the reason of such strange proceeding; to which he replied, "Oh! he is getting intoxicated _by degrees_." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- KENTUCKY KATSUP I can't seem to find "Kentucky Katsup" anywhere, even though other "Kentucky" items are plentiful. This is from the Providence (RI) Journal, 15 February 1839, pg. 2, col. 3: KENTUCKY KATSUP, is the last name which has been given to Monongahela Whiskey. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- WHISKEY/WHISKY In the 19th century, there was a debate about the spelling of this, which Tom Dalzell might find useful. This is from the Richmond (VA) Dispatch, 26 September 1874, pg. 2, col. 3: The word _whisky_ has no _e_ in it, and its plural is _whiskies_, not _whiskeys_.--_Petersburg Index (selected)_. Yes it has; and its plural is "_whiskeys_." (See WORCESTER.) It comes from "_usquebaugh_." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- HOLDING A PAT HAND This poker term is illustrated in the University of Michigan's WRINKLE, vol vii, no. 7, 4 April 1900, pg. 11, col. 2: "POKER TERM--HOLDING A PAT HAND." Irishmen ("Patricks") are shaking. "Standing pat" would reach great political significance around this time. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- RUBBER Paul Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY says this is "the last and deciding game of a series when the previous games have been split." No citations or dates are given in the entry. The term may or may not come from poker. This is from the Chicago Times, 12 September 1886, pg. 5, col. 2: WON THE RUBBER./Chicago's Base-Ball Artists Take the Deciding Game from the Detroit Players. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- SLEEPER "Sleeper" (I don't have the next edition of the RHHDAS to check) can be found in the cartoon Penny Ante by Gene Knott, "Finding a 'Sleeper,'" 24 October 1917, Vancouver Daily Sun (St. Louis Post-Dispatch and other papers as well), pg. 8. One character declares, "Ah! I found a 'sleeper' in the pot!!! This is the first sign of luck I've had all evening." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- POT This is from the New York Sun, 5 June 1871, pg. 1, col. 3. In describing a game of dominoes, "he who has the best hand takes the money in 'the pot'--that is, the money to which each player contributed at the outset of the game." The word "pot" is explained as a new or unfamiliar word would be. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- PUT UP OR SHUT UP This card gambling term ("Put up or shut up") was used in two Thomas Nast cartoons for Harper's Weekly: 19 August 1876 (pg. 684) and 30 December 1876 (pg. 1064). The latter, however, was "Put up and shut up." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- THE HICKS ARE IN "Jimmy Hicks" is the number "six" in craps. However, I couldn't find this phrase defined anywhere. It's from the Boston Journal, 23 May 1911, pg. 8, col. 4: "THE HICKS ARE IN" AND BETTORS MOURN Lively Ball That Caused Downfall of Pitchers Has a Dead Substitute. "The hicks are in." This is gamblers' slang for the intrusion of loaded dice into a crap game. (...) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- GALLERY GOD Before the " peanut gallery" (1893 in the DA), there were the "gallery gods" (not in the DA). Both terms began with the stage but moved to baseball and other venues. Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY records neither term. The Daily Graphic (N.Y.), 29 March 1879 has "A GALLERY GOD'S/ REMINISCINCES PAST AND CRITICISMS PRESENT OF THE STAGE. I am one of the gods of the gallery, and an old gallery god, too." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- GIG The RHHDAS quotes the DAE and DA with an 1847 citation. This is from the National Police Gazette, 4 July 1846, pg. 364 (?bad copy), col. 4: MORE POLICY INFAMIES. (...) The aristocrats of the bunsiness, whose heavy depots are located under the guise of Exchange Offices, in Broadway and Chatham street, have recently held a private convention, the results of which have been a unanimous resolution to increase the rates of purchase to the buyer, at an average of forty to forty-five per cent--the increase on one species of tickets alone, called "gigs," amounting to an increase of 100 _per cent_. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- COCKTAIL I found this is my files; the Tamony papers probably have it, though. It's from the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, ANSWERS TO QUERIES, 22 April 1917, pg. 2, col. 6: (...) Reddall writes: Cocktail--The national American "drink," said to have been invented by one Elizabeth Flanagan. She was the widow of an Irish soldier who fell in the service of this country. She appears after his death to have been a sutler, and in that capacity to have followed a troop of Virginia horse who, under command of Col. Burr, took up quarters in the winter of 1779 in a place called the "Four Corners," situated on the road between Tarrytown and White Plains, Westchester County, N. Y. Here Elizabeth Flanagan set up a hotel, which was largely patronized by the officers of the French and American forces quartered in the vicinity, and here it is that the drink known as the "cocktail" was invented. O. K., so why did Washington Irving, who lived in Westchester County and who wrote a history of New York and who was not one to ignore the region's glories, say that the "cocktail" was invented in Baltimore? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------- PAINT THE TOWN RED "Paint the Town Red" was extensively discussed in a long article in an 1887 Scientific American (I think), but it doesn't have this, from the Milwaukee Journal, 29 September 1886, pg. 2, col. 2: Exciting Origin of a Well-Worn Phrase. At this late day, says The Pittsburg Dispatch, another origin for the expression, "Painting it red," is given. Back in the '60s racing was one of the exciting features of Mississippi river travel, and when an opportunity offered for a trial of speed all hands were breathless with excitement. The first command from the captain would be: "Paint her red, boys!" which was river slang for filling the fire-box with rosin in order to create a quick, hot fire, at which time the fire-boxes would be thrown open. Then, if the night were dark, the effect was simply grand. As far ahead as the eye could see the river would be a deep red from reflection, forming a beautiful picture, which, once seen, could never be forgotten. It was at that time that the expression, "Paint the town red," originated, as the old steamboatsmen intended to convey the idea by its use that they would have a beautiful time on arrival at their destination. I gotta go to Toronto. Maybe I'll paint it black. Fuchsia? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 03:48:55 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Wait Till Next Year It's almost next year. Paul Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY has: WAIT 'TIL NEXT YEAR/WAIT UNTIL NEXT YEAR The plaintive motto of fans whose team has once again fallen short of expectations. The refrain was long associated with the Brooklyn Dodgers and their fans. It achieved its greatest play in those years (1941, 1947, 1949, 1952, 1953, and 1956) when the Dodgers lost to the New York Yankees in the World Series. Among other things, it was the name of a book written by Jackie Robinson. It is now applied to other teams. "There is no light in the Old North Church tonight. Boston is dark and despairing, waiting, as always, until next year." (Tony Kornheiser, _The Washington Post_, October 28, 1986) 1ST 1941. This is the year in which it first achieved prominent display as a headline in the _Brooklyn Eagle_, after the Dodgers were beaten by the Yankees in the World Series. EXT The line has been used as a battle cry in a host of areas and situations. Before those Brooklyn Dodger teams, WAY before, there was a New York Giant baseball team. This was the headline of the New York Tribune, 30 September 1915, pg. 13: "Wait Till Next Year" Is Now Heard on All Sides by the Fans. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:25:24 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Rubber game (Was Re: Christmas Potpourri....) At 03:50 AM 12/27/97 EST, you wrote: RUBBER Paul Dickson's BASEBALL DICTIONARY says this is "the last and deciding game of a series when the previous games have been split." No citations or dates are given in the entry. The term may or may not come from poker. This is from the Chicago Times, 12 September 1886, pg. 5, col. 2: WON THE RUBBER./Chicago's Base-Ball Artists Take the Deciding Game from the Detroit Players. OED2 rubber n.2 has citations back to 1599 in the sense of "decisive game or round" in many kinds of matches or contests, often the third of three or fifth of five. Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:31:26 -0500 From: Gregory {Greg} Downing downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IS2.NYU.EDU Subject: Betting pot (Was Re: Christmas Potpourri....) At 03:50 AM 12/27/97 EST, you wrote: POT This is from the New York Sun, 5 June 1871, pg. 1, col. 3. In describing a game of dominoes, "he who has the best hand takes the money in 'the pot'--that is, the money to which each player contributed at the outset of the game." The word "pot" is explained as a new or unfamiliar word would be. OED2 pot n.1 meaning 9e has citations back to 1847 (beginning in the US) in the sense of the stake or pool in a betting game, based on the older idea of "pot of gold" etc. (see 9a through 9d). Greg Downing/NYU, at greg.downing[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nyu.edu or downingg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]is2.nyu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 10:52:56 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: movie non-anachronism In Frank Rich's Op-Ed piece in today's New York Times, he discusses the movie The Titanic, beginning with whether people actually gave each other the finger in 1912, which he thinks is a grave anachronism (a "deviation from historical verisimilitude," in his words). In fact, that gesture was certainly in use in 1912; not only was the expression "the finger" current (though only in the figurative sense 'harsh treatment, etc'; the use of "the finger" referring to the finger gesture itself is not attested until later, though this is unquestionable due to a gap in the evidence; see HDAS), but there are nineteenth-century American photographs of people giving the finger. A correspondent also asked me recently if "shut up!," which also occurs in The Titanic, was an anachronism; it is not, of course. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 14:58:32 -0500 From: Gerald Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMR.EDU Subject: "Mudville" update I have received the book _Ernest Thayer's "Casey at the Bat"_, by Jim Moore and Natalie Vermilyea and now have the following thoughts on "Mudville": 1) There seems to be no doubt that Thayer had Stockton, California in mind when he wrote the poem. Page 234 says: "The poem...was obviously written to amuse Bay Area readers. because the mountain, the valley, the flat, and the dell (delta) evoke Stockton--Slough City--Mudville, as do the names of the players." The authors add on p.238: "Thayer probably had in mind Mount Diablo, 'the silent sentinel of the San Joaquin Valley,' the landmark that guided the first wagon trains to the Golden State in 1841, to the ranch at the foot of the mountain where Dr. John Marsh, a Harvard man [G. Cohen: as was Thayer] was awaiting the party with a dinner of pork and hot tortillas. Mount Diablo plays an important part in the history of Stockton, and was incorporated into the great seal of the city in 1851... It was quite a scene Thayer had concocted for the opening act, with a spectacular California setting. Back to p. 234, where the authors start devoting 2 1/2 pages to the players mentioned in the poem: a) Cooney --Billy Cooney played outfield for Stockton in 1887. b) Flynn--Dan Flynn played for Stockton in 1887 and part of 1888 as pitcher and shortstop. c) Blake--"There was no Blake on the Stockton nine in the California League in 1887 or 1888, but there was a player named Blakiston who could be 'Blake, the much despis-ed'; he played for Stockton in 1888." 2) Even with the above case made for Stockton, one cannot rule out the possibility that Thayer's native state, Massachusetts influenced his thinking to some degree. The authors (p.240) regard Boston superstar Mike Kelly as the possible inspiration for the character Casey: "Mike had all the qualifications...; last but not least, he struck out swinging one day in San Francisco when he wished he hadn't." Also, the authors write (p.236): "The other player mentioned--Barrows--is a mystery, although there was a player on the 1871 Boston Red Stockings named Frank Barrows. He might have made a deep impression on a Worcester lad of eight [G. Cohen: i.e., on Thayer]." 3) Let's see if the Massachusetts Historical Society is able to locate a Mudville in Massachusetts and if Thayer would likely have known about it. Evidently no book or article on "Casey at the Bat" has yet mentioned such a town. --G. Cohen gcohen[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]umr.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 16:28:00 EST From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Podunk Barry is wise to raise the question of the origins of one of the most interesting of Americanisms. Perhaps in _America in So Many Words_ we should have explicitly credited the "pa" of _American Speech_, H.L. Mencken, for his inspiration, in an article in _The New Yorker_ of 25 September 1948 entitled "The Podunk Mystery." The intriguing question is, when did "Podunk" become a generic? Barry's new citation provides further food for thought. For those of you who don't yet have _America in So Many Words_, here's the entry for 1846 Podunk: It is said to have been a real place in Massachusetts, Connecticut, Long Island, upstate New York, Michigan, and Nebraska. But only faint traces of it still exist in the 20th century. One authentic trace is just to the northeast of Hartford, Connecticut, where the little Podunk River appears on the map to this day, emptying into the Connecticut. Another is a rural area some dozen miles west of Worcester, Massachusetts, encompassing Quaboag Pond and Quacumquasit Pond, long known to the people in the vicinity as Podunk. And for a few years in the 19th century, a town in Nebraska officially bore the name Podunk until the railroad came through and changed it to "Brock." The power of Podunk to stir the American imagination was not the fame of any such place, however, but its very obscurity. The turning point came in 1846, when "R.P.," a columnist for the Buffalo (N.Y.) Daily National Pilot, wrote a series of eight humorous articles titled "Letters from Podunk," about the supremely uneventful life of that mythical small town, "Podunk," "a little world of itself . . . high up on the Big Pigeon." Whether or not R.P. originated the notion of Podunk as the ultimate backwater town, his articles, reprinted in other newspapers, were the means of spreading its fame across the country. The lack of well-known geographic reference made it possible to use Podunk as an epithet for a sleepy small town anywhere. Podunk was a name known to New Englanders two centuries before R.P. In the Algonquian language spoken by a tribe of Indians then living in Connecticut, Podunk meant "a neck or corner of land." Hearing the name from those Indians, English speakers applied it to the place where these Indians lived, the river that ran through it, and the tribe itself. The place was small, the river was small, and the tribe was small, making Podunk an apt choice for R.P.'s mock Utopia. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Dec 1997 to 27 Dec 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 27 Dec 1997 to 28 Dec 1997 There are 3 messages totalling 97 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. PODUNK 2. WEIRD EXISTENTIAL 3. WEIRD EXISTENTIAL . . . is is . . . ? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 12:05:57 -0500 From: ALICE FABER faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]HASKINS.YALE.EDU Subject: PODUNK | | Date: Sat, 27 Dec 1997 16:28:00 EST | From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM | Subject: Re: Podunk | | Barry is wise to raise the question of the origins of one of the most | interesting of Americanisms. Perhaps in _America in So Many Words_ we should | have explicitly credited the "pa" of _American Speech_, H.L. Mencken, for his | inspiration, in an article in _The New Yorker_ of 25 September 1948 entitled | "The Podunk Mystery." The intriguing question is, when did "Podunk" become a | generic? Barry's new citation provides further food for thought. | | For those of you who don't yet have _America in So Many Words_, here's the | entry for 1846 Podunk: | | It is said to have been a real place in Massachusetts, Connecticut, Long | Island, upstate New York, Michigan, and Nebraska. But only faint traces of it | still exist in the 20th century. One authentic trace is just to the northeast | of Hartford, Connecticut, where the little Podunk River appears on the map to | this day, emptying into the Connecticut. Another is a rural area some dozen | miles west of Worcester, Massachusetts, encompassing Quaboag Pond and | Quacumquasit Pond, long known to the people in the vicinity as Podunk. And for | a few years in the 19th century, a town in Nebraska officially bore the name | Podunk until the railroad came through and changed it to "Brock." I have in my photo album a picture taken by the roadside somewhere in Hartford County (CT) approximately 7-8 years ago of a sign reading "Podunk River". Another picture on the roll shows a rather blurry sign, a rather unpretentious stream, and a carwash which, hopefully, has taken care not to send its runoff into the Podunk. Unfortunately, neither picture has enough detail to enable me to re-find the site, though it's probably somewhere northeast of Hartford; a friend and I were on the way to the airport to pick up some tickets when this photo op presented itself. My best source of information on where and how to research Connecticut place names (my sister) is currently in New Zealand, so that's the limit of information I can provide. Alice Faber ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 15:59:49 -0600 From: Mary Bucholtz bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TAMU.EDU Subject: Re: WEIRD EXISTENTIAL Might this be related to the structure "The thing is is that..."? The reduplicated "is" isn't a speech error, and it's obligatory for those who use it. Mary Mary Bucholtz Texas A&M University bucholtz[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tamu.edu I recently had a two-hour conversation with my real-estate-lending agent. He has a peculiar syntactic form that I wonder if is just an idiosyncrasy or if others are familir with it as well. He begins sentences with IS THAT used as an existential, as in "Okay. Is that we have to see copies of your 1996 tax returns." "Well, now, thats done. Is that we need to calculate your gross income for 1997." This guy is a native speaker. Born in New York. Is he weird or what? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 Dec 1997 17:20:47 -0500 From: Ron Butters RonButters[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: WEIRD EXISTENTIAL . . . is is . . . ? Mary Bucholtz writes: Might this be related to the structure "The thing is is that..."? The reduplicated "is" isn't a speech error, and it's obligatory for those who use it. Interesting suggestion, the psychosocial history of which might be something like the following: S' = "The thing is + S" S' = "The thing is + is that + S" S' = Is that + S" If so, that means my real estate guy may be in the vanguard of a syntactic change? ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Dec 1997 to 28 Dec 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 28 Dec 1997 to 30 Dec 1997 There are 4 messages totalling 255 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Words of the Year 97: Branwyn nominations 2. ruddle 3. Free set of American Speech and PADS 4. Queen's English ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 13:42:06 EST From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Words of the Year 97: Branwyn nominations All right, ADS members and ADS-Lers, it's time to get serious about Words of the Year 1997. We meet in New York at 10:30 a.m. Friday, Jan. 9 to consider nominations and at 4:45 p.m. to vote for our favorites. Your responses are invited to the following list from: Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Co-author of the _Happy Mutant Handbook_ and _Internet Power Toolkit_ Author of _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ (HardWired) --------------------------------- Here are my candidates for words of the year. Not surprisingly, most of them are related to computers and the Internet. The most significant ones are: cybercasting, DVD, legacy, millennium bug, Network Computer, PCS, and push. My favorites are: cradle cams, geeksploitation, Salinger effect, serendipity search, and spamouflage. avatar - Used in graphical chat rooms such as The Palace and 3D virtual worlds to refer to the graphical representation of a user. The computer use of the term is thought to have originated with Carnegie-Mellon University UNIX hackers (to describe someone with "root" access) and was later popularized (in the VR sense) in Neal Stephenson's 1992 sci-fi novel _Snow Crash_. chopsocky - Movie industry slang for the currently-popular Hong Kong hyper- violent action films that enjoyed an explosion of popularity in the US and Europe in '97 and crossed over into American films such as "Rumble in the Bronx" and "Supercop." cradle cams, kiddie cams - The increasingly popular Web cameras being installed in daycare centers and grade schools so that parents can monitor their children from their desktops at home and work. Video cameras that are set up surreptiously to monitor nannies and babysitters are called "nanny cams." cybercasting, webcasting, netcasting - "Broadcasting" audio and/or video over the Internet in real time (using programs like RealAudio). The technology for doing this has been slow in developing (esp. as modem speeds are still relatively slow), but advances in RealAudio/Video in 1997 caused producers and consumers to take cybercasting much more seriously. digipet - The generic term for electronic toys that simulate a real-world pet, requiring constant care and feeding. The most widely known digipet is the Japanese Tamagocchi (or Tamagotchi). DVD ["Digital Versatile Disc" (or "Disk"), orig. "Digital Video Disc"] - Optical disk technology that is expected to replace the CD-ROM and the audio compact disc in the next few years. A DVD holds hold 28 times more information that a CD-ROM. geeksploitation - Taking advantage of twenty-something digital workers, flushed with pioneer enthusiasm and willing to work long hours if bolstered by junk food, flexible work schedules, and no dress code. "Rolling Stone," "MSNBC's The Site," and "Nightline" all did stories about geeksploitation in '97. handhelds - Digital devices such as PDAs (Personal Digital Assistants), electronic organizers, and handheld PCs (PCs that run Windows CE). Any computers that can be held in one hand. Also "palmtop." legacy (programmers, systems, programs, data, etc.) - Of or pertaining to technology that existed prior to a certain period of time. Dealing with legacy computer systems and data has always been a problem (i.e. translating old files and programs to current computer technology), but the situation has become more pronounced because of the Y2K bug and the need to modify old computer programs to accept year 2000+ dating. See "millennium bug." micropayments, microtransactions, micromoney - Scheme for transferring small amounts of money from a credit card account each time you access intellectual property on the Internet. millennium bug, Y2K bug, Year 2000 Problem, Year 2000 crisis, digital doomsday - Of or pertaining to the problem that exists in computers and embedded computer controllers (in machines and appliances) that cannot handle dates after 1999. At 12:01 Jan. 1, 2000, computers (and other digital devices) that are not Y2K-ready will think it's Jan. 1, 1900 and become confused, if not stop working altogether. Network Computer (or "NC") - A pared-down, low-cost computer that has no disk drives, no expansion slots and is centrally served with software over a network where datafiles are also stored. The idea of the NC is to make a cheap computer for consumers who can't afford a regular PC and for businesses that need multiple low-cost computers on an office network. A "NetPC" is a thin client that's similar to an NC, but with a slightly different set of standards for its components (and different computer manufacturers invested in it). See "thin client." -palooza - The Lollapalooza "alternative" rock festival has spawned many imitators and events that poke fun by adding "-palooza" to their name. Witness: Lesbopalooza, Noise-a-palooza, Lounge-a-palooza, Tele-palooza, Estropalooza, Alapalooza (as in Weird Al). PCS (Personal Communications Services) - The next generation of wireless communications technologies. PCS offers mobile phone, pager, Web, and email services andspan effect, Greenspan factor - The aftermath of comments made by Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan on the U.S. or world economy. "The post-Greenspan euphoria has subsided around most of the globe." push - The automatic delivery of customized Internet content to one's desktop. Push was certainly the most over-hyped technology in '97, gaining attention (and investments) from media companies and advertisers who saw an opportunity to make the Net more like television, a technology with which they're already comfortable and have a proven track record. Many push companies that emerged at the beginning of the year seemed to have folded or switched gears by the end of it, and the breathless enthusiasm of the computer trades and magazines like Wired seems to have all but vanished. Push spawned a number of new terms applied to the Net such as "channels" (for areas of a website or a push service), "networks" (groups of websites), and "interstitials" (ads that pop up as you move from one webpage to another). The opposite of push is pull (where you go out and get the material you desire rather than having it sent automatically). thin client - A client computer in a client/server relationship that performs very little data processing. The processing is done on the server side and the client only processes the output to the screen. This is called a thin client/fat server environment. An X Window terminal would be an example of a thin client. A desktop PC is called a fat client. In 1997, the term thin client became synonymous with the Network Computer (or NC), which actually does a fair amount of data processing, but the programs used are stored on a remote server. See "Network Computer." Salinger effect - Believing everything one reads on the Internet. Online gullibility. Coined soon after former Kennedy press secretary Pierre Salinger came forward with information he got from the Internet purporting that TWA flight 800 was downed by a US Navy missile. Also "pulling a Salinger" and "being Salingered." serendipity search - An Internet search where one finds interesting and valuable things that were not intended in the original search. Searching willy-nilly. "I found this really cool site on Tiki collecting during a serendipity search." [The many flavors of "spam" (unwanted ad-related email and BBS postings) continued to be popular:] spam bait - erroneous email addresses that are put on Web pages to lure "spambots" (clogging spammers mailing lists with junk addresses). Also called spam chaff, spam trap, or spider poison. See "spambot." spambot - a program that automatically scoops up email addresses on Web pages for spammers (This type of software robot is also called a spider or a webcrawler). Also, a bot that automatically posts ads on newsgroups. spamhaters - netizens who've gone on a crusade against spammers. spamouflage - A non-spam looking header on an email message or newsgroup posting designed to get the reader to open it (e.g. "Long time no talk to," "I miss you!") spam wars - the constant back and forth battles between spammers, spamhaters, and legislators. spamdexing - using various tricks in an HTML document to force your page to the top of a Web search. Spam King - name given to notorious spammers such as Jeff Slaton (president of the now-defunct Eunuchs Etc.) and Sanford Wallace (president of CyberPromotions). Mr. Wallace is commonly referred to as "Spamford" among spamhaters. stalkerazzi - Paparazzi who will go to just about any lengths to get the shot they desire. This term continued to gain in popularity throughout the year, especially after Lady Di's death. -war (cyberwar, infowar, Java wars, browser wars, spam wars) War and rumors of war seemed to be everywhere on the Net this year. Webring (or "Web ring") - A series of websites on a particular topic that are linked together in a ring so that you can visit one site after another, eventually returning to the first site. As of July 1997, there were 50,000 sites on 14,486 Webrings. World Wide Wait - What started out as a humorous interpretation of "WWW" became a popular newspaper headline and marketing slogan on the problem of increasing lag times on Internet connections. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 14:33:06 -0600 From: Joan Houston Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: ruddle Is anyone familiar with the term "ruddle" to mean 'the attic of a house'? We have one example from a DARE Informant from Massachusetts, another from Haywood's _Yankee Dictionary_, and another from Dick Syatt's _Like We Say Back Home_ (for which we have no regional info). So far, we've found no likely source for the word. Any leads will be welcome! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 17:01:56 EST From: AAllan AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Free set of American Speech and PADS ADS member Thomas Paikeday writes that he has "a complete set of AS from 1954 on and PADS from 1971. Should I send it to the pulpers with the remainder of my 'native speaker' book or perhaps offer it to some ADS member who is willing to pay the freight (UPS by surface)? . . . I wouldn't like to take the trouble to disperse the collection piecemeal." If you're interested, write him at the address in the directory (Sept NADS). - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Dec 1997 23:15:53 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Queen's English I got on a plane to Toronto, bought a Toronto Star at the airport, and flew back just to post this item!! It's from the Toronto Star, 30 December 1997, editorials, pg. A18, col. 1: Queen's English The Royals have always had a tendency to torture the English language. Queen Elizabeth has a fondness for strange declarations, like: _Set the tay dane, m'deah_, when she requires a cuppa. But Prince Charles, the future King of Canada, appears to be an even bigger fan of the linguistic rack. Or so the venerable Sunday Times (London? Anyone see the article?--ed.) reports. Charles not only pronounces _off_ as _orf_, and _horse_ as _'orse_, but drops the "g" in words like _mornin'_, mangles _mouse_ so that it becomes _mace_, twists _man_ into _mayn_, and may even be starting to swallow the "t" in words like _foo-ball_. We can just imagine Chuck at the next Canadian affair of state, belting out a special regal rendition of the national anthem. _O Caynada, are 'ame an na-ive laynd_ _True pa-riot luv, in awl thy sons commaynd!_ God help us when he gets to the French bits. (POSTING NOTE: If we actually had an AMERICAN POPULAR SPEECH ONLINE, this would be reprinted in the "news" section. When I suggested regular "regional" columns, I meant Canada, England, and Australia as well as the U.S. If those societies are also interested in the project, the title can easily be changed to ENGLISH ONLINE--or something similar--and we'd have even more "hits.") ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Dec 1997 to 30 Dec 1997 ************************************************ Subject: ADS-L Digest - 30 Dec 1997 to 31 Dec 1997 There are 4 messages totalling 147 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Canuck (part three) 2. 'InterNOT' as a 1997 WOTY nomination ... (2) 3. Dilbert for WOTY? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 02:15:53 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Canuck (part three) While in Toronto, I finally got to look at the publication PUNCH IN CANADA, a high-quality humor magazine that unfortunately ran briefly--from 1849-1850. I found many wonderful items (a bearded Uncle Sam in 1849, years before Nast's Lincoln-inspired Uncle Sam!!), but will present only the "Canucks" here. 17 February 1849, PUNCH IN CANADA, pg. 20, col. 2. Old England, return to your blundering old Stage Coaches; the Canucks have put your pipes--(steam)--out. 17 February 1849, PUNCH IN CANADA, pg. 21. (In the full page cartoon, one character says the word "Kenada"--an important spelling because "Canuck" would often be "Kanuck" or even "Kennuck.") 3 March 1849, PUNCH IN CANADA, pg. 32, col. 2. The first volume now ready will contain the speeches of the Hon. members for Kamouraska aud L'Islet, Messrs. Charles Fournier and Pierre Canuck dit Marquise, they have been carefully translated into French Canadian English, by the Hon. Augustus N. Morin, who will receive "ord-hairs" for the work. 31 March 1849, PUNCH IN CANADA, pg. 48, col. 1. (...) Let each Canuck his weapon wield Howling as he takes the field. (...) Affecting, almost to tears, is the fond familiarity of the playful epithet "Canuck." Mark how the soul of the poet rises with the occasion too; "disposing" of the Scot is no longer the indefinite operation recommended; "skiver" is now the word--a term equally applicable to the administration of a pitchfork and the introduction of a bayonet. 19 May 1849, PUNCH IN CANADA, pg. 75, col. 2. CUCKOO! CUCKOO!! Another negative has been added to the cry of the Canuckian Cuckoos! it is now, "No lois; no institutions; no langue, et no Soldats." There are now 13 known "Canuck" citations before 1850. I've found nine of them. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 11:38:58 +0200 From: John Hopkins John.Hopkins[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSC.FI Subject: 'InterNOT' as a 1997 WOTY nomination ... Dear All, Perhaps particularly in followup to Gareth's WOTY suggestions, I would like to nominate 'Internot' (sometimes seen with the NOT part highlighted) as a WOTY for 1997. It seems to me that during 1997, particularly in academia but also in the business world, the line was crossed between usage of the internet being perceived as a new or leading-edge technology (bearing in mind how slowly things change among the academic mainstream, as opposed to ADS-L subscribers) to both familiarity and active usage of the internet being 'expected' if not 'assumed' as a basic qualification for those working in higher education -- and also in business marketing -- to the point where those NOT on the internet are viewed as dysfunctional with respect to internal university communications, teaching and scholarly development and a host of other considerations. In short I feel there was a very rapid and remarkable shift of status to internet proficiency now being a basic, mainstream literacy qualification, with those who are NOT such now viewed quite pejoratively. Related to this has been the shift in meaning of words like 'geek' from almost-exclusively pejorative to contexts approaching admiration for one's proficiency with technology (seen in turn as a current/future key to upward mobility and success). 'Internot' has been used in computer publications such as InfoWorld and PC Magazine (plus BYTE, etc) for at least two years, but increasingly this year has been used in mainstream newspapers and magazines. Yours, JOHN ************************************************************************* John D. Hopkins Hopkins[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]csc.fi http://www.uta.fi/FAST/JH University of Tampere, Finland Phone +358-3-2156116, FAX +358-3-2157200 ************************************************************************* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 14:26:10 EST From: GarethB2 GarethB2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: 'InterNOT' as a 1997 WOTY nomination ... In a message dated 12/31/97 9:40:26 AM, John.Hopkins[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSC.FI wrote: Dear All, Perhaps particularly in followup to Gareth's WOTY suggestions, I would like to nominate 'Internot' (sometimes seen with the NOT part highlighted) as a WOTY for 1997. [deletia] Do you have any citations, John? I've seen it used in this sense at least once, but I've mainly heard the term Internot used to refer to an Internet that's not working. Older related terms are "notwork" (a downed or slow network), "nyetwork" (same thing), and "Nyetscape" (nickname for the AOL Web browser). Gareth -------------------------------------------------- Gareth Branwyn garethb2[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, http://home.earthlink.net/~garethb2/ Contributing editor, Wired Co-author _Happy Mutant Handbook_ , _Internet Power Toolkit_ Author, _Jargon Watch: A Pocket Dictionary for the Jitterati_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 18:42:01 EST From: Bapopik Bapopik[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Dilbert for WOTY? I've been going through "Among the New Words" and past WOTYs, and I could have missed it, but "Dilbert" isn't there. So, for Word-of-the-Year, I'd like to nominate my close friend-- DILBERT: Oh please! Get a life! POPIK: Dilbert! DILBERT: Page 592 of the RHHDAS says "Also _delbert_." POPIK: A bi-type person who is both a noun and a verb! DILBERT: I'm funny that way. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Dec 1997 to 31 Dec 1997 ************************************************