There are 22 messages totalling 434 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. 'the' in place names (Kaye) (2) 2. The great California freeway isogloss revisited 3. 'the the' names; front vowels before l 4. RE /bijl/ (3) 5. "the" 101 (5) 6. Highland/drylang fish (4) 7. dryland fish (3) 8. trizzle 9. ways of dealing with names 10. dryland fish, etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 00:04:22 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: 'the' in place names (Kaye) In relation to Vicki's comments below: First, El Bronx is better than Los Bronx, etymology aside--after all, The Bronx IS (not ARE) up and the Battery down. Second, I grew up in Washington Heights (163rd St.) in the late 40's and early 50's and never heard "the Heights" for it. Brooklyn Heights, si; Washington Heights, no. As for those freeways, while I'm still in the autobiographical mode, I concur with the suggestion that both the (optional) move from names to numbers and the (apparently obligatory) move to the 'the 405' (in place of '405' for what I remember as the San Diego Freeway) are fairly recent developments. I do remember, though, 'the 605' for what was evidently named, but not generally referred to as, the San Gabriel Freeway. I agree that the article in these (and in 'the Mission [District]') represents a remnant from the full moniker, e.g. 'the 405 freeway', on the pattern of 'the San Diego Freeway'. Odd that one of these truncations seems to have occurred only in southern California and the other only in San Francisco. I guess a Whorfian would draw some sort of inference about the attitudes of Angelenos and San Franciscans toward their freeways and neighborhoods respectively. --Larry ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- The most famous "the" anomaly in English geography may be "The Bronx" (which can be explained historically, but is still anomalous); the local Spanish press duly translates this, and refers to "El Bronx" (though if one were to follow the historical explanation, it should probably be "Los Bronx"). New York City also has two neighborhoods with "Heights" in their name, Washington Heights and Brooklyn Heights, either of which may be referred to as "the Heights," but that's a more straightforward shortening, I think. Vicki Rosenzweig Associate Editor, Computing Reviews vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com 212-626-0666 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 13:35:33 +0000 From: Aaron Drews <9475245[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ARRAN.SMS.ED.AC.UK> Subject: Re: The great California freeway isogloss revisited Since everyone is talking about how they mention (Southern) California freeways, I'll throw in my two bits. When using numbers (eg 110, 405, 605, 710, ad naseum), I always use the definite determiner. I can interchangebaly use the 'proper' names, (eg, the Harbor, the San Diego, the San Fernando.....), but, like the numbers, I use the definite determiner. Personally, I prefer using the numbers instead of the names because some frewways change names every so often. So, the 91 is "The Beach Cities freeway" in some places, the Artesia (ironically, near the beach cities) freeway from where I live, and the Riverside freeway closer to Riverside. Sorry I can't suggest any real data, except maybe a tape recorder during rush hour trafic on any radio station. "Hope this helps" :) --Aaron Drews Georgetown University School of Languages and Linguistics ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 09:00:47 EST From: Wayne Glowka Subject: Re: 'the the' names; front vowels before l > >On a different topic, a student here at UTA is researching a southern >dialect feature (also found among rural speakers in Texas) whereby front >lax vowels become tense and diphthongized before /l/, as in /bijl/ for >'bill' and /wejl/ for 'well'. Has anything ever been *published* on this? > >Thanks, >Susan When I was a student at UTA, my friends and I used to adopt this practice for fun. We were particularly fond too of raising the first vowel in "Dallas" with a result something like [delIs]--without the diphthongization (I can't diphthongize the vowel with a following unaccented syllable: "bill" or "billfold"--yes; "billet"--no; "bell"--yes; "belly"--no). (Cf. the pronunciation on Willis Allen Ramsey's album that appeared sometime in the early seventies and once available for a dollar in Kmart stores. Ramsey was once a UTA student; his pronunciation may or may not support these observations completely. I think he got some dialect coaching.) Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 09:04:36 EST From: Rex Pyles Subject: RE /bijl/ What about /flejsh/ (flesh) and /cajsh/ (cash) heard in some southern areas? Rex. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 09:04:45 -0600 From: Joan Livingston-Webber Subject: "the" 101 Maybe I'm reading too fast--I got pretty far behind in my mail. But, Alan, are you assuming that "the 101" is the most common form except in northern CA? I never heard highway numbers with "the" until the post on this list. (I never noticed in Grafton either, so I may, in fact, have heard it but didn't register.) I have lived for long periods in western PA, ND, IN, IL, and NE. I take 34 when I drive to Illinois from Nebraska or 80 when I go to Wisconsin. Isn't 101 a grand highway, one that might have accrued "the" the way a monument would? And would a grand highway be a kind of southern CA monument? As I read your messages, it sounds like you're assuming "101" has had a "the" deleted. But I don't delete a "the" when I'm taking 34 across Iowa. There's never been a "the" there. -- Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu "What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other." -Clifford Geertz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 09:50:13 EST From: Vicki Rosenzweig Subject: Re: 'the' in place names (Kaye) So "the Heights" for "Washington Heights" is a recent development> (I'm only 31, and grew up in Queens, so I can't speak to what it was being called more than, say, 10 years ago, except to note that my mother said "Washington Heights" (she lived there for a few years in the late 1940s). Vicki Rosenzweig vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com New York, NY ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 11:58:33 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: "the" 101 I shouldn't presume to speak for Alan, but I believe the claim is not that 'the 101' would be used everywhere except northern California, but rather that it would be used nowhere except southern California, where its use derives from the earlier default labels using names ("the San(ta) X Freeway") rather than numbers, but now expanded productively to freeways/highways that never had any non-numerical names. Elsewhere (e.g. in the Bay Area, in Iowa, in New Hampshire), highways don't generally come with names (although some do--the Bayshore Freeway, the Spaulding Turnpike, the Garden State Turnpike, the [New York] Thruway,...), and so there's no productively applicable source for the "truncation". In that respect, the process is more motivated than the corresponding one we've been speaking about for S.F. neighborhoods, where the rule in question ("the X district"-->"the X", for X = Castro, Mission, Sunset, etc.) is arbitrarily confined to San Francisco. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 09:37:17 -0800 From: Dan Alford Subject: Re: Highland/drylang fish I'm willing to play the game (!), except I have to start on the square labelled "ignorant". Never heard my folks use either term. I think that may be true for other respondents as well. -- Moonhawk (%->) <"The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and> <-- McCartney/Lennon> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 12:18:14 EST From: Terry Lynn Irons Subject: Re: Highland/drylang fish Bethany Dumas asks, > Inquiring minds want to know (at least, I want to know). Did everyone > know about "highland/dry land" fish? > > Or did no one care? > > No one answered. > > There's still a prize a-waitin'. > > Round abouts here, some of 'ems calls mushrooms, particularly morel or sponge varieties, dry land fish. Aint's heared the highland variation, though. Terry -- (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) Terry Lynn Irons t.irons[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msuacad.morehead-st.edu Voice Mail: (606) 783-5164 Snail Mail: UPO 604 Morehead, KY 40351 (*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*)=(*) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 09:59:33 -0800 From: "Joseph B. Monda" Subject: Re: Highland/drylang fish What was the original question? Joe Monda On Wed, 30 Nov 1994, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote: > Inquiring minds want to know (at least, I want to know). Did everyone > know about "highland/dry land" fish? > > Or did no one care? > > No one answered. > > There's still a prize a-waitin'. > > Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 12:34:35 CST From: Joan Hall Subject: dryland fish Bethany, I don't remember the phrasing of your question either, but check out Vol II of DARE, where dry-land fish (an edible mushroom, usu a morel) is labelled "chiefly KY, TN." Joan Hall, DARE ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 11:20:07 -0800 From: Judith Rascoe Subject: Re: "the" 101 Joan Livingston-Webber's comment that those 'grand highways' of California accrued "the" almost persuaded me -- until I thought of one of the grandest: 5, the big north-south highway from Sacramento to LA. I have _never_ heard anybody say "that the 5 ...". But that leads to the reflection that the use of the definite article always seems associated with the concept of a freeway in an urban area -- the freeway as a visible entity with its overpasses and offramps that turn it into ... a definite article, so to speak. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 14:41:21 EST From: SHANE J SALLEE Subject: Re: Highland/drylang fish Just to let you know, I have heard about dryland fish. I used to have to collect them with my grandmother when we would go on for a walk where they were growing. For those who don't know, a dryland fish is a type of mushroom that is really quite tasty. As to highland fish, I never heard that exact use around my area of Kentucky, but I can see where that term could be used instead of dryland fish. Signing this with a small tear in my eye due to the memories, Shane Sallee Morehead State University ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 14:50:25 EST From: SHANE J SALLEE Subject: Re: trizzle Dan, I hate to say this, but I never heard the word trizzle as another term for a fart. I have, although, heard it used as a derogatory term for a vagina. I don't know where this came from, but in Lexington, Kentucky, the term is popular with the younger generation, around 11-15 in the age category. With the coming of the end, A beggining must be made. Shane Sallee, Morehead State University ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 14:03:23 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: ways of dealing with names When a by-pass was completed on the east side of Columbia, Missouri and Hwy Dept personnel put up signs, some (perhaps identifiable, but I'm not gonna try) 'they' decided that 'Broadway' was not an appropriate way to refer to a broad way into town, so the proud sign at the top of the exit ramp announces "Broadway Street." (Here a boulevard usually has a median, so broad ways aren't necessarily boulevards.) DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 12:50:47 -0800 From: "Alan S. Kaye" Subject: Re: "the" 101 Re the comment by Joan Livingston-Webber: I have got to say: I live near the 101. Not: *I live near 101. Therefore, when I compare with dialects in which the latter is grammatical, I assume we can talk of a deletion process (i.e., the 101 FWY). Re elsewhere in the English-speaking world, it may not be correct to think of it in these terms -- maybe we will have to look at 'the' addition. The problem is becomming extremely interesting! --Alan Kaye-- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 15:58:56 EST From: Wayne Glowka Subject: Re: dryland fish Does this term exhibit the same humor as _mountain oyster_ (less the possible obscenity)? Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 18:41:49 -0500 From: "Peter L. Patrick" Subject: Re: RE /bijl/ Just a query: is this different from the usual pronunciations east of Texas where there's a second nucleus (syllable)? eg /bij[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]l/? I don't think I can even say it all in one syllable! If this is part of "The Drawl" then I bet it's been studied to the eyeballs, but I confess to only being familiar with the recent work on triphthongal pronunciations of words like "well" by Corky Feagin (who is well-known to ADS folks but, bless her, still isn't on email though she keeps threatening...). No doubt we have real scholars of Southern Vowels out there who can enlighten me further...? --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 19:19:13 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: dryland fish Besides mountain/prairie oysters, there's also Albany sturgeon (dried beef), Block Island turkey (salted codfish), and the ever-popular Welsh rabbit. And no doubt others involving the same logic (as dryland fish). One of my favorites, though it may be seen as a bit of an ethnoslur (and we don't want to rekindle THAT thread, do we?) is "Irish tan", which according to one of my students, = 'sunburn'. So it's not just for luncheon treats anymore... Larry ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 19:26:29 -0600 From: Daniel S Goodman Subject: Re: dryland fish, etc. On Thu, 1 Dec 1994, Larry Horn wrote: > Besides mountain/prairie oysters, there's also Albany sturgeon (dried beef), > Block Island turkey (salted codfish), and the ever-popular Welsh rabbit. And > no doubt others involving the same logic (as dryland fish). Jewish turkey (salami); Irish turkey (ham). Both from NYC, and from my grandparents -- old enough to remember WW I. Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 18:45:32 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh Subject: Re: RE /bijl/ On Thu, 1 Dec 1994, Rex Pyles wrote: > What about /flejsh/ (flesh) and /cajsh/ (cash) heard > in some southern areas? > Rex. > Which brings to mind the disyllabic "dog" = dah-w'g heard in much of the South. Birrell ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 18:45:56 -0800 From: "Alan S. Kaye" Subject: Re: "the" 101 Re: 'I have never heard...' I can assure you that the 5 is really fantastic. You can get to Sac. really fast. This is a very normal sentence for us around these here parts (southern California). --Alan Kaye-- ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Nov 1994 to 1 Dec 1994 *********************************************** There are 10 messages totalling 200 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. dryland fish 2. RE /bijl/ (2) 3. SoCal Freeway Names 4. SoCal Freeways, Part II 5. Another highway observation 6. Brigidy (4) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 1 Dec 1994 21:36:47 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh Subject: Re: dryland fish On Thu, 1 Dec 1994, Larry Horn wrote: > Besides mountain/prairie oysters, there's also Albany sturgeon (dried beef), > Block Island turkey (salted codfish), and the ever-popular Welsh rabbit. And > no doubt others involving the same logic (as dryland fish). One of my > favorites, though it may be seen as a bit of an ethnoslur (and we don't want > to rekindle THAT thread, do we?) is "Irish tan", which according to one of my > students, = 'sunburn'. So it's not just for luncheon treats anymore... In San Francisco at Eighth and Bryant Streets, a large green turkey revolves over the door of a corned beef maker. The origin? A century ago beef was cheap and turkey expensive. The immigrant Irish could not afford anything expensive, so corned beef was "Irish Turkey". The only trace is that the place in question is "Robert's Turkey Brand Corned Beef." Birrell ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 05:07:47 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Re: RE /bijl/ > Which brings to mind the disyllabic "dog" = dah-w'g heard in much of the > South. I'm not convinced that disyllabic "dog" is heard in much of the South. I don't remember ever hearing it. But this discussion reminds me of something a friend of mine was talking about on the way to lunch yesterday. She said that Mississippi, where she's lived for the past 20+ years, is the only place she's ever heard "afternoon" pronounced with the primary stress on the first syllable -- that in SC, where she's from, and in all other places, the stress is on the last syllable. Another person with us, originally from Arkansas, agreed. She said that Mississippians consistently say AFternoon, while all other people, including in Arkansas, say afterNOON. I said the word out loud at that point and noticed that I (a native Mississippian) do say AFternoon. I'd never thought about it before or noticed that anybody else, particularly other Southerners, say it in any other way. Is this really a Mississippi oddity? I'm aware, of course, of the Southern stress pattern in words like UMbrella, and I'm aware that *some* Southerners say POlice and INsurance. Most people I know do say UMbrella but do not say POlice, INsurance, or ADDress. But I'd never been aware of the AFternoon/afterNOON difference. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 06:28:51 EST From: Rex Pyles Subject: Re: RE /bijl/ I lived for 3+ years in Odessa, (west) Texas. Many people there said AFternoon, which was very noticeable to me. Rex. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 07:48:44 -0800 From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" Subject: SoCal Freeway Names As Aaron rews pointed out, the 91 freeway changes names three times in its travel through Orange and Losa Angeles Counties: the Riverside Freeway, the Artesia Freeway, and the Redondo Beach Freeway. It is much easier to tell somebody to take the 91 to the end, than to tell them to take the Riverside Freeway to the Artesia Freeway, and continue on to the Redondo Beach Freeway, etc. Interstate 5 also changed names through Orange and LA counties: in the south, it it the San Diego Freeway, then the Santa Ana Freeway, then the Golden State Freeway in the north (of LA). The Santa Monica Freeway is Interstate 405 for part of the way (a north/south) freeway) and it is also Interstate 10 for part of the way (an east/west freeway). To use the names of the freeways, here in Southern California, would be too confusing -- I can say much about the bay area (San Francisco area). Chuck Coker Commuter at Large CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu PS: Sorry, about all the typos, we are temporarily without heat and my fingertips are numb. I think my keyboard is numb, too. (Yes, we DO get snow in some parts of Sunny Southern California.) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 08:03:08 -0800 From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" Subject: SoCal Freeways, Part II Larry Horn briefly mentions freeways without names, that is, they only have numbers. A perfect, but dumb, in my opinon, example of this is California State Highway 259. How many people out there have ever travelled on the 259? Can anybody even find it on a map? (Hint: it's in San Bernardino, California, north end of town.) Okay, you can put away the road maps, now, it's not on the map. The 259 is the connector road from the northbound Interstate 215 to the eastbound State Highway 30. The 259 is probably all of 1/4 mile in length. Giving a connector road status as a state highway defies all logic in my opinion -- sort of like Interstate H-3 on Oahu, Hawaii (we used Interstate H-3 for drag racing in the 70s -- it was so short that there was never any traffic on it). BTW, why are there Interstate Highways in Hawaii -- you can't even have Intra-state Highways there. Chuck Coker I Hate Communting CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 10:28:12 -0600 From: Mary Howe Subject: Another highway observation All the discussion about the use of the article in highway names brings to mind another phenomenon I've noticed in Kansas. I grew up in various New England states, where we either used the highway number alone or preceded by the word 'highway' (e.g., "Take 95 to the Attleboro exit" or "Take highway 95 to the Attleboro exit"). In this part of the country, the number precedes the highway (e.g., "Take 10 highway to Eudora"). My husband grew up in Kansas City, so at first I thought this was just a feature used to describe roads around here, but he uses this construction when we're in other parts of the country as well. (But what can you expect from someone who pronounces 'route' to rhyme with 'out'?) Mary Howe Child Language Program Phone (913) 864-4789 University of Kansas email howe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kuhub.cc.ukans.edu 1082 Dole Center Lawrence, KS 66045 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 15:19:59 EST From: GERALDINE CARTER Subject: Brigidy Growing up, I occasionally heard the word BRIGIDY. The context was always in reference to women. For example: >A mother to young daughter misbehaving, "You're brigidy." >Over heard about my sister-in-law who is slim and trim at sixty years old, wearing blue jeans and riding a horse. "She always was brigidy." >Finally, beleive it or not, "She has brigidy bumps." ?? I grew up in the Miami Valley in Ohio and twice moved to Franklin County in Indiana just forty-five minutes from Ohio. Other than hearing brigidy spoken by my mother, who is from Berea, Kentucky, all the other instances that I have heard brigidy spoken have been in Eastern Kentucky where I presently live. Has anyone heard brigidy? If so, from where and in what context? Geraldine Carter Morehead State University Morehead, Kentucky ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 15:34:13 -0500 From: "Peter L. Patrick" Subject: Re: Brigidy Haven't heard it-- and not sure what it means from your examples (what do you think?). I don't suppose it could have anything to do with Brigidy Bar-doe? (a distant relation of Katy Bar-the-Doe, I think)... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 22:17:50 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: Brigidy No, MUCH more likely to be Subject: Re: Brigidy On Fri, 2 Dec 1994, Peter L. Patrick wrote: > Haven't heard it-- and not sure what it means from your examples (what > do you think?). I don't suppose it could have anything to do with > Brigidy Bar-doe? (a distant relation of Katy Bar-the-Doe, I think)... > I'd check the Bardo Thodol. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Dec 1994 to 2 Dec 1994 ********************************************** There are 3 messages totalling 53 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Brigidy 2. "the" 101 3. RE /bijl/ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 Dec 1994 18:11:23 EST From: Rex Pyles Subject: Re: Brigidy And what about "gawmy"? I spelled it as it is pronounced, for I have never seen it written. I have no idea what it means--but it is used to describe people, perhaps who are a bit on the awkward side. But this, again, is a guess. I have heard it in Wyoming, Utah, and also the Northeast. Rex ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Dec 1994 22:14:03 -0600 From: "James C. Stalker" Subject: Re: "the" 101 An interesting question. A great many languages don't have articles. Do we have evidence that articles are universal (so unmarked) and lack of articles are non-universal (so marked)? The relevance here is that "the 496" (our local interstate bypass) is unmarked, but that "496" is marked. 496 is the more common designation here. I will not make strong claims because I have not yet asked. I reckon I will. ! <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <> <> <> <> Michigan State University <> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <21667cfm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Dec 1994 22:14:09 -0600 From: "James C. Stalker" Subject: Re: RE /bijl/ Mike Montgomery gave an interesting tajk on just this issue some 10 yejurs ago at CEA in Ashville. He might could have published the data he presented in the talk, but ifn he did, I can't rightly say. Y'all might ask him. ! <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <> <> <> <> Michigan State University <> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <21667cfm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu> ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Dec 1994 to 3 Dec 1994 ********************************************** There are 5 messages totalling 143 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "gawmy" (3) 2. Article Use w/ Freeway Names 3. Sweet home Chicago '95 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 Dec 1994 21:30:18 -0800 From: Dan Alford Subject: "gawmy" I've always heard it as part of a set from my Ozarks people: "messy and gawmy" (sp?). -- Moonhawk (%->) <"The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and> <-- McCartney/Lennon> ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 09:21:00 EST From: "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU> Subject: "gawmy" In southern Indiana/northern Kentucky (at least in the 50's), the expression a 'gommy mess' was common. Please note the spelling. Previous references on the list suggest 'gawm,' the form recorded in DARE (spelled 'gaum' there, where, by the way, there are nearly three pages devoted to this very interesting form). I have the rather distinct memory that 'gommy' was fancy Louisville talk and that 'gaumy' (or even 'gormy') was backwoods (or other impolite expressions). (Please note that the area I am referring to is not 'caught-cot' conflation territory. It's interesting to me that I have only the sense 'sticky mess,' which, I suppose, contributes to my folk-etymological sense that it is 'gob'+'gummy.' Many DARE enties, however, suggest 'awkwardness,' which fits better with the 'aw' pronunciation (and relates it to 'gawky,' and even 'awkward.') (Anybody for a little sound symbolism? Who feels that the 'auk' (greater or lesser) is a graceful bird? (Obvious counter-example - 'hawk.') What am I doing on Sunday morning! Back to VARBRUL. Dennis Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 08:58:25 -0800 From: "CAVEMAN -- San Bernardino, Calif. USA" Subject: Article Use w/ Freeway Names > Subj: ADS-L Digest - 2 Dec 1994 to 3 Dec 1994 > Date: Sat, 3 Dec 1994 22:14:03 -0600 > From: "James C. Stalker" > Subject: Re: "the" 101 > An interesting question. A great many languages don't have articles. Do > we have evidence that articles are universal (so unmarked) and lack of > articles are non-universal (so marked)? The relevance here is that "the > 496" (our local interstate bypass) is unmarked, but that "496" is marked. > 496 is the more common designation here. I will not make strong claims > because I have not yet asked. I reckon I will. Please excuse my ignorance here, but what exactly is being said here? I don't quite understand this. It's possible Mr. Stalker studies a different area of linguistics than I do, so maybe that is the source of my confusion. In my admittedly limited experience, most languages I have come across (number of languages, NOT number of speakers of those languages) do NOT use articles. Assuming all languages were equal, I would have to say I believe articles to be unusual, and not having articles to be the norm. In the 6,000 languages spoken around the world, I still have to examine about 5,990 of them, so take my opinion for what it's worth. Listening to speakers of English as an L2, I would say that the Romance languages use articles, but others such as Russian, do not. Again, just an over-generalization and opinion -- not knowledge. Could article usage be tied to typologies such as SOV vs. SVO (e.g. English) maybe? Any thoughts? I realize this is getting away from American English dialects, but we have many non-native speakers of English here in Southern California -- I tried an informal count of the languages a few years back, and remember the number being over 100. Chuck Coker CJCoker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CSUPomona.Edu PS: Years ago, when I was a truck driver, we would refer to, for example, Interstate 10, as I10 (pronounced eye-one-oh, as in, "I'm an eastbound on eye-one-oh."), although now, as a commuter, I take "the 10" from San Bernardino to Pomona each day. PPS: I just remembered! This goes back a few threads, but those little knobs attached to steering wheels were called "suicide knobs" by truck drivers. They were very dangerous when driving in less-than-ideal conditions (e.g., on ice, etc.). I would not recommend anybody putting one on their steering wheel (professional opinion here). =============================================================================== There have been no dragons in my life, only small spiders and stepping in gum. I could have coped with the dragons. -- Anonymous (but wise) =============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 17:29:33 -0500 From: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Sweet home Chicago '95 To members and friends of the American Dialect Society: In December 1995, as previously determined, ADS holds its annual meeting with MLA in Chicago. (Perhaps that'll be the last meeting with MLA, but that's another story.) As usual, I'm talking with hotels that are interested in hosting us (and the Name Society). One of them is the Barclay, where we stayed in 1990. Happily, the B. is just starting a 6-month, $5 million rehabilitation - new carpets, wallpaper, drapes; reupholstered furniture; microwave ovens and coffee pots for the kitchens; a fitness center on the top floor, etc. - so it'll be in sparkling shape in December '95. We would once again get real suites, with full breakfast (now including hot items) included, at a rate only $10 more than five years earlier. For those of you who were there in 1990, I have a question: Did you like the Barclay? Would you like to go back? I do have other possibilities, so this is not an idle question. But if you have an opinion, let me know soon. I'd like to make a deal in time to announce it at this year's annual meeting. Thanks - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 22:18:10 -0500 From: Robert Kelly Subject: Re: "gawmy" Notice Irish-American gawm or gahm (presumably from Gaelic g long-a m, a fool or the like); I take this to be the source of the usage under discussion. Any Irish kid has been called it a thousand times. RK ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Dec 1994 to 4 Dec 1994 ********************************************** There are 14 messages totalling 278 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Sweet home Chicago '95 (5) 2. Delivery Status Report 3. RE /bijl/ 4. Brigidy 5. Comment on MLA 6. Dryland/Highland Fish Winners (2) 7. Offensive Sayings "from" PEI -- Last Post 8. Row row row your boat (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 00:06:34 -0500 From: David Carlson Subject: Re: Sweet home Chicago '95 Allan, I liked the Barclay very much and would be happy to return in 1995. David R. Carlson Springfield College Springfield, MA Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 03:17:03 -0500 From: sansonetti[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]VAX1.RZ.UNI-REGENSBURG.D400.DE Subject: Delivery Status Report Message auto-forwarded to Luca Sansonetti ; ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 08:32:00 EST From: "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU> Subject: Sweet home Chicago '95 Back to the Barclay! Dennis R. Preston<22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 09:23:34 EST From: Wayne Glowka Subject: Re: RE /bijl/ >Mike Montgomery gave an interesting tajk on just this issue some 10 yejurs >ago at CEA in Ashville. He might could have published the data he presented >in the talk, but ifn he did, I can't rightly say. Y'all might ask him. >! Longer ago than that, James H. Sledd responded to comments made by Montgomery about Sledd's objectivity in "Breaking, Umlaut, and the Southern Drawl," Language 42.1 (1966): 18-41. Sledd distributed about a thirty-page, single-spaced handout, which included spectrographs of his own pronunciation. I no longer have a copy of that handout (that I can find). At the end of the session, which Montgomery chaired, Mufwene stood up and said some diplomatic things to fill the embarrassing void. It was another one of those ADS-last-morning-on-the last-day-SAMLA sessions in which all the hangovers seemed to generate cotton in the artificial hotel air. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 09:44:57 -0500 From: Donald Larmouth Subject: Re: Sweet home Chicago '95 Sounds OK to me (and I hope it is the last meeting with MLA). Donald Larmouth ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 11:41:08 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" Subject: Re: Sweet home Chicago '95 I have seen a couple of votes against meeting with MLA. I kind of hate to stop that, if only cause I'm married to a lit. person and we can go to the same convention (when we DO go; we both hate to travel). I'm curious: what are some of the reasons for the anti-MLA sentiment? Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 12:08:00 CST From: Edward Callary Subject: Re: Sweet home Chicago '95 Tim: There are a number of reasons the American Name Society has considered cutting all ties with MLA. Among the more often cited are: 1. the punitively early deadlines, 2. the (demeaning) fact that we are an 'associated' organization, 3. the impression that 'MLA' stands for Modern Literature Association, where language is tolerated rather than accepted. 4. the gestapo environment at MLA meetings, where entrance to sessions - even ANS sessions - is controlled by grad student guards. There are other arguments; these come most quickly to mind. Cheers, Edward Callary ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 12:50:50 CST From: Joan Hall Subject: Re: Brigidy Thanks, Dennis, for plugging DARE with reference to _gaumy._ DARE is also the place to go for _brigidy_. We entered it under the spelling _briggity_, but have also found it spelled brickaty, brigaty, brigetty, briggidy, and brigity, with the superlative bricketyest as well. It means 'self-assertive, conceited, headstrong,' and is found chiefly in the southern Appalachians. We think it's probably a variant of biggity. Joan Hall, DARE ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 14:12:51 -0500 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" Subject: Comment on MLA I will be delighted when ADS stops meeting with MLA. I don't find MLA meetings useful or enertaining. The only times I go is when I have to interview candidates. Being at MLA in NYC was so awful that I left as soon as the interviewing was over (it helped that I ran into a few ADS buddies at the book exhibit). I hope that the main meeting will be with LSA in the future. Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 14:29:53 -0500 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" Subject: Dryland/Highland Fish Winners The winners are: 1. Terry Irons, first with the right answer and 2. Shane Sallee Moorhead, who had the most poignant answer. (Send me your s-mail addresses and you will receive your prize.) Thanks also to Moonhawk (it's always to confess your ignorance except when you ain't ignorant) and Joan Hall, who was not eligible for the contest prize (looking in DARE was prohibited), but who provided the DARE cite. I first heard the term doing fieldwork in Newton County, Arkansas. In Newton Co., the terms applied exclusively to morels. Apparently they are used in other areas (KY, at least) to apply to other mushrooms as well. As far as I could tell, the terms were used interchangeably in Newton Co. Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 17:01:26 -0400 From: TPRATT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UPEI.CA Subject: Offensive Sayings "from" PEI -- Last Post Thanks again for letting air, fresh or fetid, into this subject. For the fourth and final time then, are any of the following, in your experience, used OUTSIDE THE NEW ENGLAND STATES OR THE ATLANTIC PROVINCES? The question is relevant to ongoing work on a dictionary of Prince Edward Island sayings. Please respond to: tpratt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]upei.ca. Use bare numbers if that will help speed your reply. 74. stupid as my arse and not half so cute 75. stupid as pissing the bed awake 76. You can't sweep the floor and wipe your ass at the same time. (two irreconcilable things) 77. tight as a cat's ass (variant on the usual bull; stingy) 78. tight as a fiddler's fart (ditto -- but why?) 79. Up Jumbo's hole to see the moon rising. (not your business where I'm going) 80. useless / useful as a fart in the wind 81. useless as a pisshole in a snowbank 82. useless as tits on a goose (variant of usual bull, etc.) 83. going to water a horse (urinate) 84. Well brought up -- why weren't you? (burp) 85. well-fed at both ends (overweight) 86. Wherever you may be, let your wind blow free. (excuse for fart) 87. a whore of a day (stormy) 88. not worth a patch on a good man's arse 89. not worth the sweat off a dead man's arse 90. to wring the mitt (male urinate) 91. carrying last year's fun (pregnant) 92. She's that way. (pregnant) 93. There's never an old shoe but there's a sock to fit it. (anyone can find a mate). THAT'S IT. THANKS AGAIN TO ALL. HOPE TO SEE YOU IN SAN DIEGO. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 18:15:43 -0500 From: Donald Larmouth Subject: Re: Dryland/Highland Fish Winners Somebody in Michigan may want to check and see if the "Kentucks" near Wellston, Brethren, and Manistee use the term for morels (both--Kentucks and morels--are numerous in that area). Meanwhile, I'll put it on my list for the cutover region in Wisconsin. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 21:04:22 -0500 From: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Row row row your boat or take the passenger ferry from downtown San Diego - or, if you insist on going by land, take a car or cab or shuttle across the Coronado Bay Bridge to Le Meridien Coronado, where the American Dialect Society will hold its annual meeting at the end of the month. This is to let you know that, if you act at once, you still may be able to get the most lovely hotel room ever experienced by this experienced traveler, at our remarkable rate of just $95 a night for the duration of the meeting. You must call the hotel at (619) 435-3000 and ask for ADS rates. For those who are going, or at least contemplating, let me take you on a prevenient promenade two blocks from the hotel to the Ferry Landing Marketplace. Not only can you catch the ferry to S.D. there, but you can shop and eat at more than 30 places, including Art for Wildlife Galleries Bay Beach Cafe Bikes & Beyond Burger King Caricatures by Pete Hall Coronado Leather Coronado Psychic Deli by the Bay Kaffeen's Espresso Bar La Camisa Men's Island Sportswear Mrs. Fields Cookies Peohe's Restaurant Shells 'n' Stuff Southwestern Indian Den Time Out Family Amusement Center With or Without Hot Dog Cart Will you join us? Ask me if you have any questions. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 20:18:03 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Re: Row row row your boat > For those who are going, or at least contemplating, let me take you on a > prevenient promenade two blocks from the hotel to the Ferry Landing > Marketplace. Not only can you catch the ferry to S.D. there, but you can shop Where on the other end does the ferry land? As in where in relation to the MLA hotels? I've been wondering about how I'm going to get back and forth from where I'm staying (with ADS, of course) to where I'm supposed to be interviewing job candidates (at MLA, of course). --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Dec 1994 to 5 Dec 1994 ********************************************** There are 10 messages totalling 321 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Comment on MLA (2) 2. Sweet home Chicago '95 3. PEI List (2) 4. RE /bijl/ 5. ADS/MLA: One more comment 6. 'the' in place names (Kaye) 7. The great California freeway isogloss revisited 8. The ADS crystal ball ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 23:24:32 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: Comment on MLA When considering what will be missed when/if ADS no longer has its big meeting with MLA -- Remember PDE. Discussions in the Present-Day English sessions made rather direct contributions to the planning for the Atlas. I've found the Lexicography Discussion Group to be interesting. And sometimes Language & Society has good programs. And some of the other lang/ling sessions, such as Language Theory, often are organized by spirits kindred to ADS members. I'm not arguing against change -- just inserting some little reminders. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 23:14:47 GMT From: al'n Subject: Re: Sweet home Chicago '95 I don't understand #4, grad student guards, but maybe that's only in the language part. Everyone's out to bash the MLa these days. Perhaps I haven't been in the game long enough to have enough to compare all this too, but I've no complaints. YOu get to stay in a $300/night hotel in Wash DC for $65. Bellboys still expect tips though. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 10:05:07 -0600 From: Joan Livingston-Webber Subject: Re: PEI List 83--Okay now I've already forgotten what the listed one was. Mine is a variant. SW PA 50's, but probably before, since my grandfather used it--"see a man about a horse"-- take a piss, said only by men. I can't recall hearing any woman say it, and, for some reason, I think it meant going outside--in the woods, behind a tree, something on that order. But since I never used it, I can't really be sure this impression was right. It just seemed like the kind of thing that was imported from construction sites, deer stands, and fishin creeks. Obviously, when my grandfather was a boy (born 1899), women probably didn't see men about horses. I always took the "literal" meaning to be see a man about [buying] a horse. But no one ever said that. I spent a lot my childhood making up folk etymologies, so I'm never sure when my "impressions" of meanings derive from my attempts to figure out why we said what we did. My father still uses this; as did my brother who remained in the home town. (I assume my grandfather might still use it to.) I feels completely awkward for me to think of myself using it. But then, the whole PEI list may be gendered that way. -- Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu "What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other." -Clifford Geertz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 11:34:43 EST From: Wayne Glowka Subject: Re: Comment on MLA >When considering what will be missed when/if ADS no longer has its big >meeting with MLA -- >Remember PDE. Discussions in the Present-Day English sessions made rather >direct contributions to the planning for the Atlas. >I've found the Lexicography Discussion Group to be interesting. And sometimes >Language & Society has good programs. >And some of the other lang/ling sessions, such as Language Theory, often >are organized by spirits kindred to ADS members. >I'm not arguing against change -- just inserting some little reminders. > DMLance For what it's worth, I'll say it again. I like MLA. I pay my fees; I get a badge. I see old friends. I stay in a nice hotel. I get a laugh out of critical theorists getting it on in the registration line. The parties are good. The book exhibition is reason enough to go--even to Chicago in December. But then I teach a good deal of literature in addition to HEL and grammar/syntax. But a separate meeting somewhere else for all the exec/committee stuff is OK. And the Philadelphia plan sounds good. Uhmm, mussels at Walt's on 2nd Street--I hope it's still there. Vats of olives in the Italian market. Wear boots. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 11:12:00 PST From: Ellen Fennell Subject: Re: PEI List My father ( fourth-generation Arkansawyer who grew up in the Delta) always used the polite phrase "step aside from the trail." Ellen Fennell ---------- From: ADS-L To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L Subject: Re: PEI List Date: Tuesday, December 06, 1994 10:05AM 83--Okay now I've already forgotten what the listed one was. Mine is a variant. SW PA 50's, but probably before, since my grandfather used it--"see a man about a horse"-- take a piss, said only by men. I can't recall hearing any woman say it, and, for some reason, I think it meant going outside--in the woods, behind a tree, something on that order. But since I never used it, I can't really be sure this impression was right. It just seemed like the kind of thing that was imported from construction sites, deer stands, and fishin creeks. Obviously, when my grandfather was a boy (born 1899), women probably didn't see men about horses. I always took the "literal" meaning to be see a man about [buying] a horse. But no one ever said that. I spent a lot my childhood making up folk etymologies, so I'm never sure when my "impressions" of meanings derive from my attempts to figure out why we said what we did. My father still uses this; as did my brother who remained in the home town. (I assume my grandfather might still use it to.) I feels completely awkward for me to think of myself using it. But then, the whole PEI list may be gendered that way. -- Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu "What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other." -Clifford Geertz ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 18:27:38 -0500 From: ALICE FABER Subject: RE /bijl/ I just got back from a conference, and among the 49 messages waiting (and I get ADS-L in digest form!), is one about the very topic of our (me, Cathi Best, and Marianna Di Paolo) presentation... The question was about the tendency to pronounce /ihl/ as /ijl/ and /ijl/ ans /ihl/, I believe in Texas. With regard to Texas, this was one of the variables Guy Bailey and his colleagues tracked in their study of Texas English. The only reference I can think of off hand is the paper on apparent time that appeared in Language Variation and Change in the past year or so. They may also have tracked this in Oklahoma. Marianna Di Paolo has investigated similar phenomena in Utah, and I have collaborated with her in some of this work. We had a paper in LVC in 1990, that includes references to literature on the phenomena in other regions (what little we were able to find); unfortunately, I don't have a copy at home, so I can't post details, alas. Alice Faber Faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]haskins.yale.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 13:55:40 -0500 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" Subject: ADS/MLA: One more comment I have always thought that the timing of the MLA meeting is atrocious. NOw that I attend LSA instead of MLA, I get to actually have a semester break betwen Fall and Spring semesters. I LIKE that. Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 17:22:46 -0800 From: THOMAS CLARK Subject: Re: 'the' in place names (Kaye) We have (I'm not making this up) "Avenida Calle Del Diablo Street" in Las Vegas. Cheers, tlc On Tue, 29 Nov 1994, Bethany Dumas, UTK wrote: > My favorite "the the" name was a bar in Springfield, Mo., where I had > my first fulltime teaching job (SW Mo. State College, now University)-- > it was The La Petite Lounge. Students spoke of going to "The La > Petite." > > Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 17:31:32 -0800 From: THOMAS CLARK Subject: Re: The great California freeway isogloss revisited Bergdahl says THE Bronx, but in those environs I have heard only Da Bronx. Cheers, tlc ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 6 Dec 1994 21:40:58 -0500 From: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: The ADS crystal ball My dear ADS colleagues: It is heartening to see the electrons of ADS-L at last beginning to tingle with contemplation of where we should go for the Annual Meeting. Two months ago, I found it odd that the ad hoc committee's recommendation, to boldly go where no ADS annual meeting had ever gone, published prominently (p. 2 - that's the hot-news place) in the ADS newsletter, met with - just about perfect nonresponse. The s-mail writers remain almost 100% silent, but those who are fortunate enough to be Internetworked are at last giving the proposal a working over. Qui tacet consentit, could be argued by those who approve the committee's proposal. But now the silence is being broken, and it is much better to break the eggs before cooking the omelet. Mirabile dictu, we are also having a civilized conversation, though I know the various sentiments are strong. I know because, having conducted last year's poll of all members, I know that our strongest advocates, as well as our more moderate ones, are almost exactly divided between those in favor of MLA and those in favor of LSA. The number of those who wanted something else is much smaller. So the committee went against the sentiments of the membership. I came a day late to the committee meeting last summer and was myself amazed to be told of their conclusion. I believed them when they said they hadn't come to the meeting with the April alternative in mind. Rather, it began to emerge the more they considered the serious disadvantages of deciding on either one or the other of the midwinter meetings. So it could be said that the April choice was for negative reasons - to avoid dissing nearly half our membership, as we now do by meeting with MLA, and as we would (with a different half) if we switched to LSA. But as the committee considered the April alternative further, it began to seem not a last resort but an opportunity. And as ADS-L is now beginning to replicate conversations the committee had, let me take this opportunity to explain the opportunity. The opportunity is to make something significant of the ADS annual meeting. As I try to think about it now, I think we have always had a sense that the ADS annual meeting wasn't much; it was an adjunct to something else, whether MLA, or MLA plus LSA (remember the years when both of them met in the same city at the same time?), or DSNA (in the summer), or Methods, or even NWAV (in 1978, in Washington). In every case the other meeting was larger, and the sense was that people came for the other meeting and then took time for ADS. Even now, for example, we have a day and a half of ADS sessions, while MLA (and even the Name Society) goes on for three or four days. And it's not as if we've selected just a few papers from a heap of proposals. We get only a handful of abstracts every year, and accept almost all that look reasonable. This, by the way, can give outsiders the impression that we favor an in-group that gives papers year after year. In fact, the program chairs have made efforts to encourage newcomers (as in this year's special session on Spanish and English), and still there is plenty of room even in a short program for repeaters. As I read the arguments for going with LSA or continuing with MLA, they seem in essence to say: I need to go to LSA/MLA, and am able to take some time for ADS if it's there; perhaps if it's there, it will attract other like-minded LSA/MLA attendees. That's a fine principle, but it doesn't seem to work, mainly because LSA/MLA has so much else going on, including sessions in our areas of interest. It could be argued that this is true for MLA but wouldn't be for LSA; but consider that ADS did meet in the same city and place with LSA as recently as 1986 (NYC), 1987 (S.F.), 1988 (New Orleans), and 1989 (Washington DC); the latter three years in independent hotels, so we weren't favoring MLA; and our attendance was pretty much the same as it is now, in fact very much the same. The only thing that has notably increased attendance is "New Words of the Year," which now gets about 70, compared with 30 - 50 for other sessions. And I think we've been busy enough with the MLA/LSA meetings at the time of ADS that we've let the ADS meeting coast along. Frankly, I question whether ADS needs an annual meeting at all. And I think that's the thought in most of our minds, that ADS by itself isn't worth a meeting. It's just a nice adjunct. But suppose we look on the April meeting as an opportunity: not to aggrandize ADS for aggrandizement sake, but to contribute significantly to the study of the English language in North America & other languages as they relate to it. What comes to mind as a model for this is the conference on Language Variation in the South, that brought together linguistic geographers and variationists and lexicographers and - well, people who regularly go to MLA, to LSA, to DSNA, to NWAV - they all got together, met each other, exchanged insights. That's the potential for an independent ADS meeting. It would *require* active planning, and probably a different theme, each year. Perhaps each year, in addition to the supervising vice president/program chair, there should be a special-topic organizer, chosen at least a couple of years in advance - who would organize the ADS meeting almost as a special conference. The Council could call for topic proposals, appoint organizers, announce topics in the Newsletter and in kindred forums; and make a significant contribution to a particular topic. What could such topics be? Well, we might consider other places, e.g. Heartland English or New York City speech; we might revisit the Linguistic Atlas of New England; we might ponder slang with Jonathan Lighter; wonder about innovation in AAVE; review the neologisms of the 20th century. Pick keynote speakers and organize panels early; seek grants; perhaps publish proceedings. That would give ADS something distinctive to do. You who have read thus far, thanks for your patience. I will not weigh down your e-mail boxes so heavily again. But this is a crucial decision, and a crucial opportunity. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Dec 1994 to 6 Dec 1994 ********************************************** There are 17 messages totalling 566 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. The ADS crystal ball (11) 2. 'the' in place names (Kaye) 3. An Ad and a Question (2) 4. MORE ABOUT ADS 5. Offensive Sayings "from" PEI -- Last Post 6. Sweet home Chicago '95 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 08:58:45 EST From: Wayne Glowka Subject: Re: The ADS crystal ball Hear! Hear! Hear! Hear! Well said Allan. There has never been any doubt why you are the Executive Secretary. Well said. Well said. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu BITNET Address: Wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]USCN ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 07:12:33 PST From: "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs, CO" Subject: Re: 'the' in place names (Kaye) One of my favorites along the same line(the El, Avenida Calle), although totally appropriate, is the name of the middle school at Fort Leavenworth, KS: George S. Patton Jr. Junior High School -- Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 09:23:13 -0600 From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: The ADS crystal ball I agree with Allan, or as he is now, aallan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com, a thoroughly distinctive monicker. Ideally I too would opt for a separate conference, and what better, crueller, month than April (isn't a crueller one of those pastries everyone has a different name for?)? My reservations are two: travel money and cancelling classes. Right now I can scrounge travel money for 2-3 gigs a year, typically NCTE; MLA+ADS; and CCCC, which I go to partly out of my administrative function as a wpa (with no budgeted travel money--have to beg each time). Both NCTE and CCCC typically mean cancelling one or more days of teaching, which I can't usually make up because I can't pull 30-40 students together at one time for a make-up session. Adding an April ADS meeting means yet another, separate, plea for funds and more canceled classes, both of which are problematical. But I do like Aallan's idea of a themed conference all on its own. That is the sort of thing that could attract external funding, at least once in a while. Having organized several sessions for ADS over the years, I'd say we could attract newcomers and fresh ideas if we didn't saturate the market by having too many meetings. Keynote speakers and focused topics are a good draw. Having organized several sessions for ADS over the years, I can also add that focused topics is not an easy thing. Our call for papers on political correctness, language, and the classroom produced many interesting proposals, and a terrific session, but almost none of it had to do with the session topic. illinois dennis -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 10:47:47 -0500 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" Subject: Re: The ADS crystal ball Thank you for your cogent comments, Allan and Dennis. As a non-attender of MLA/ADS in recent years, I am perhaps less able to identify our needs than others. However, it occurred to me this morning that the parallel with LAVIS is well-taken. In considering the points Dennis has just made, I wonder whether we would not be better served by an independent conference that meets less often than once a year. Say, April in alternate years--like the LSA Institute. Certainly, an annual LAVIS would not be possible on the scale it happens on now. What do others think? I would very much like to attend the national ADS meetings again, but--as you know--I am allergic to MLA. Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 09:55:09 -0500 From: Donald Larmouth Subject: Re: The ADS crystal ball Although what I say on the subject should be taken lightly, since I haven't been able to attend the ADS annual meetings for the last few years (one of the many costs of deaning), I heartily support the notion that ADS ought to have its own meeting and not be linked to MLA or LSA. A meeting in April, with or without an annual focus or theme, would get us out from under the problem of choosing between MLA and LSA. I would note that, in part, this problem was created by LSA's decision not to meet at the same time as MLA, thereby disrupting a good many professional lives- -especially those who can't afford to attend more than one or two conferences a year. Had LSA and MLA continued to meet at the same time and place, ADS could have continued as an affiliated meeting. I hope that other ADS members will support the idea of a separate ADS national meeting. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 11:44:52 EST From: TERESA M LOCKHART Subject: Re: The ADS crystal ball > > My dear ADS colleagues: > > It is heartening to see the electrons of ADS-L at last beginning to tingle > with contemplation of where we should go for the Annual Meeting. Two months > ago, I found it odd that the ad hoc committee's recommendation, to boldly go > where no ADS annual meeting had ever gone, published prominently (p. 2 - > that's the hot-news place) in the ADS newsletter, met with - just about > perfect nonresponse. The s-mail writers remain almost 100% silent, but those > who are fortunate enough to be Internetworked are at last giving the proposal > a working over. > > Qui tacet consentit, could be argued by those who approve the committee's > proposal. But now the silence is being broken, and it is much better to break > the eggs before cooking the omelet. Mirabile dictu, we are also having a > civilized conversation, though I know the various sentiments are strong. > > I know because, having conducted last year's poll of all members, I know that > our strongest advocates, as well as our more moderate ones, are almost > exactly divided between those in favor of MLA and those in favor of LSA. The > number of those who wanted something else is much smaller. So the committee > went against the sentiments of the membership. > > I came a day late to the committee meeting last summer and was myself amazed > to be told of their conclusion. I believed them when they said they hadn't > come to the meeting with the April alternative in mind. Rather, it began to > emerge the more they considered the serious disadvantages of deciding on > either one or the other of the midwinter meetings. > > So it could be said that the April choice was for negative reasons - to avoid > dissing nearly half our membership, as we now do by meeting with MLA, and as > we would (with a different half) if we switched to LSA. > > But as the committee considered the April alternative further, it began to > seem not a last resort but an opportunity. And as ADS-L is now beginning to > replicate conversations the committee had, let me take this opportunity to > explain the opportunity. > > The opportunity is to make something significant of the ADS annual meeting. > As I try to think about it now, I think we have always had a sense that the > ADS annual meeting wasn't much; it was an adjunct to something else, whether > MLA, or MLA plus LSA (remember the years when both of them met in the same > city at the same time?), or DSNA (in the summer), or Methods, or even NWAV > (in 1978, in Washington). In every case the other meeting was larger, and the > sense was that people came for the other meeting and then took time for ADS. > Even now, for example, we have a day and a half of ADS sessions, while MLA > (and even the Name Society) goes on for three or four days. > > And it's not as if we've selected just a few papers from a heap of proposals. > We get only a handful of abstracts every year, and accept almost all that > look reasonable. This, by the way, can give outsiders the impression that we > favor an in-group that gives papers year after year. In fact, the program > chairs have made efforts to encourage newcomers (as in this year's special > session on Spanish and English), and still there is plenty of room even in a > short program for repeaters. > > As I read the arguments for going with LSA or continuing with MLA, they seem > in essence to say: I need to go to LSA/MLA, and am able to take some time > for ADS if it's there; perhaps if it's there, it will attract other > like-minded LSA/MLA attendees. That's a fine principle, but it doesn't seem > to work, mainly because LSA/MLA has so much else going on, including sessions > in our areas of interest. It could be argued that this is true for MLA but > wouldn't be for LSA; but consider that ADS did meet in the same city and > place with LSA as recently as 1986 (NYC), 1987 (S.F.), 1988 (New Orleans), > and 1989 (Washington DC); the latter three years in independent hotels, so we > weren't favoring MLA; and our attendance was pretty much the same as it is > now, in fact very much the same. The only thing that has notably increased > attendance is "New Words of the Year," which now gets about 70, compared with > 30 - 50 for other sessions. > > And I think we've been busy enough with the MLA/LSA meetings at the time of > ADS that we've let the ADS meeting coast along. > > Frankly, I question whether ADS needs an annual meeting at all. And I think > that's the thought in most of our minds, that ADS by itself isn't worth a > meeting. It's just a nice adjunct. > > But suppose we look on the April meeting as an opportunity: not to aggrandize > ADS for aggrandizement sake, but to contribute significantly to the study of > the English language in North America & other languages as they relate to it. > > What comes to mind as a model for this is the conference on Language > Variation in the South, that brought together linguistic geographers and > variationists and lexicographers and - well, people who regularly go to MLA, > to LSA, to DSNA, to NWAV - they all got together, met each other, exchanged > insights. That's the potential for an independent ADS meeting. > > It would *require* active planning, and probably a different theme, each > year. Perhaps each year, in addition to the supervising vice > president/program chair, there should be a special-topic organizer, chosen at > least a couple of years in advance - who would organize the ADS meeting > almost as a special conference. The Council could call for topic proposals, > appoint organizers, announce topics in the Newsletter and in kindred forums; > and make a significant contribution to a particular topic. > > What could such topics be? Well, we might consider other places, e.g. > Heartland English or New York City speech; we might revisit the Linguistic > Atlas of New England; we might ponder slang with Jonathan Lighter; wonder > about innovation in AAVE; review the neologisms of the 20th century. Pick > keynote speakers and organize panels early; seek grants; perhaps publish > proceedings. > > That would give ADS something distinctive to do. > > You who have read thus far, thanks for your patience. I will not weigh down > your e-mail boxes so heavily again. But this is a crucial decision, and a > crucial opportunity. - Allan Metcalf > It seems that you have given this a lot of thought and I would like to know your descision. Good luck!! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 11:47:05 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" Subject: Re: The ADS crystal ball Thanks to Don Larmouth for the reminder that LSA decided to quit meet ng with MLA. Would it make any difference if MLA and LSA met in the same place again? If so, aren't there a lot of us who are LSA members, who could lobby for a change? I mention this cause I hate to give up the MLA affiliation. I don't mean I like it; like Bethany, I feel allergic to it, maybe because no one at MLA speaks English anymore (and I don't mean the foreign language people). But there are advantages, at least for people like me who have spouses or functional equivalent who have reason to go to MLA. But as someone pointed out, there are things like the present-day English sesssion, stuff for medievalists--a lot of ADSers are medievalists, I believe--Language and Society and others. And I say this even though I only go when it's in Chicago and I don't have to go on a plane. On the other hand, I have thought of one advantage for the April spearate meeting--would it be possible for such a meeting to occur in someplace other than one of the horrible cities where MLA meets, someplace where you don't feel you need to rent an armored car to drive around in, like Urbana or Madison or Omaha? Oops, sorry for the heartland bias--Lexington? Vail? (summer only) Panama City Beach? Iowa City? Lawrence? Fayetteville? How's Knoxville in the Spring, anyway? Athens? All such moderate sized places, esp. if there's a big U. there, could probalby accomodate ADS without the hassle and stress of the huge megapolitan horrors. I only tolerate Chicago cause its close; I never want to go to NYC again. Oh, Charlottesville is nice, too. And I'll cast two votes for Chapel Hill. Tim Frazer PS Bloomington (Ill or Indiana, but not Minnesota) is/are nice too ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 11:57:36 CST From: salikoko mufwene Subject: Re: The ADS crystal ball In Message Tue, 6 Dec 1994 21:40:58 -0500, AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com writes: >What could such topics be? Well, we might consider other places, e.g. >Heartland English or New York City speech; we might revisit the Linguistic >Atlas of New England; we might ponder slang with Jonathan Lighter; wonder >about innovation in AAVE; review the neologisms of the 20th century. Pick >keynote speakers and organize panels early; seek grants; perhaps publish >proceedings. I have been wondering why very few American dialectologists have been engaged by conjectures on the development of AAVE by offering reflections on the genesis of other varieties of American English. By now it seems more and more obvious that the cluster of varieties called American English have resulted from language contact. While there have been several isolated replies to the scholarship on the genesis of AAVE, replies which typically claim the British origin of several features, I am surprised that no serious attempt has been made to account for the transmission of these features and their reorganization (not necessarily with features from the same dialectal source in the British Isles) into American English. Could a special session/conference be organized just in order to encourage research in this direction? Just an idea not so well thought out that I want to submit for consideration, since new ideas are solicited. Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 10:26:13 -0800 From: "Joseph B. Monda" Subject: Re: The ADS crystal ball On Tue, 6 Dec 1994 AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM wrote: > My dear ADS colleagues: > > > Frankly, I question whether ADS needs an annual meeting at all. And I think > that's the thought in most of our minds, that ADS by itself isn't worth a > meeting. It's just a nice adjunct. > As a rank outsider and lurker, it's presumptuous of me to suggest anything, but wouldn't a fully networked ADS do away with much of the need for an annual meeting. The main business could be handled easily over the net, and the organization would benefit by being more open to more members. How many folks want to and/or can afford to go to more than one annual meeeting? Joe Monda Joseph B. Monda email: monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]seattleu.edu Emeritus smail: English Department Seattle University Seattle WA 98122 (206) 325-3005 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 12:46:45 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: An Ad and a Question The question first: What are your opinions of the posting of ads like the following on ADS-L? Do you think all commerical ads should be banned from the list (which would be difficult to enforce, of course, since right now anybody can post to the list and since, even if we changed the list to 'send= private' [only subscribers could post], somebody could subscribe for two minutes, send the ad, and then unsubscribe)? Hmmm. The parenthetical part of that sentence got pretty long, didn't it. Do you think that ads should be posted if they are for products related to the topic of the list? Do you think that all ads sent to me or to the list should be posted since people who don't want to read them can delete them? Other opinions? This is a topic often debated on lists like LSTOWN-L. I have no strong feelings about it. Here's an ad I received this morning: > Date: 07 Dec 94 17:37 GMT > From: ECOLING[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AppleLink.Apple.COM (Ecological Linguistics,Anderson,PRT) > Subject: Fonts available > To: MAYNOR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU > > Please post the following message to the discussions list ADS-L: > > Ecological Linguistics offers high quality fonts for essentially all alphabets > of the world including many extinct writing systems; also many transliteration > standards and phonetic symbols as used for English dialects > > You will find these fonts to be both higher quality and lower prices than those > available from other sources. Rated "best foreign language fonts" by one of > the two largest Macintosh users groups for two years running. Used by major > academic institutions for publishing. > > For Macintosh (best on system 7 or later), for all alphabets, including super- > efficient keyboard software; both Postscript and TrueType outline font formats > scalable to any size. > > For Windows (3.1 or later), TrueType fonts > > The following scripts are (as of December 1994) available on Macintosh only in > system versions 7.1 to 7.1.2: Chinese/Japanese/Korean/Arabic/Hebrew, not on > Windows > > A free catalog of samples is available if you send your postal address (not > email or fax) via Internet to > > ECOLING[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Applelink.Apple.com > > or via Applelink to > > ECOLING. > > Or send a letter by post to > Ecological Linguistics > P.O. Box 15156 > Washington, D.C., 20003 > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 13:25:25 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: The ADS crystal ball In response to Tim Frazer's wondering about whether the LSA might be lobbied to go back to coordinating its meetings with the MLA (whether as a favor to ADS or for other reasons): I don't see any chance of that. As a member of the LSA executive committee for three years, I had the strong impression that the vast majority of the officers and membership of the LSA is very much in favor of the move away from both the MLA and the Christmas/New Year's week (we now always meet on the first or second weekend in January depending on what the week the 1st falls on). The same sort of arguments against meeting with the MLA that posters here have brought up were brought up at the LSA--not wanting to be overwhelmed by the sheer numbers of the MLA and playing second or third fiddle on hotel choices, not seeing any particular reason to coordinate our meetings with the MLA rather than other sister or cousin associations (the philosophers, the anthropologists, the psychologists...). So I don't think there much point in hoping for (or fearing) outside assistance in working through the quandary of when (and whether) to hold winter ADS meetings. Larry P.S. One earlier motivation for holding LSA meetings separately from the MLA was that being linked with them meant that we could never again meet in nice mid-size cities like San Antonio (LSA annual meeting 1980), but now that we've grown to needing 7 meeting rooms for simultaneous sessions, we're kind of sized out of those cities anyway; Cincinnati had to be nixed for that reason. That's a plus for a smaller group like ADS and a possible reason to (continue to) go solo. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 14:06:25 -0500 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" Subject: MORE ABOUT ADS Well, of course "More about ADS." What else would I post to this list? An ad, perhaps? More of that below. If we left MLA, we could invite Present-Day English et al to join us at OUR national meeting--annual or whatever. About ads, Natalie--my bias is in favor of helpful information. I thought the ad you posted earlier today waas perfectly appropriate. I would not, of course, want to read ads for computers or snowshoes, but I welcome informative notices of new products that I do not automatically find out about immediately. Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 18:07:28 -0500 From: "Peter L. Patrick" Subject: Re: Offensive Sayings "from" PEI -- Last Post More on this horse-watering subject. This is linguistics-by-translation, but Romani gypsies in northern Europe have, or used to have, a similar expression used by the men when they were going outside the caravan to the edge of the campgrounds to urinate: "going to look at the horses". Anatomical comparisons aside, I assumed the connection with horses is that you do it outside of your own walking/cooking/etc area, which is also where you tether horses (who have no such scruples, but never seem to step in anything either). This earthshaking info was gleaned from a book I no longer have, autobiographical account by a Scandinavian (Dane?) who ran away with a gypsy group at age 12 and lived with them for years. I don't remember the author, only that it vanished when I had to get rid of 25 boxes or so of books a year or two ago, along with other gems. --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 18:34:46 -0500 From: "Peter L. Patrick" Subject: Re: The ADS crystal ball Among all the senior ADS members my comment shouldn't carry too much weight-- the onl;y time I've gone to an ADS meeting was when it co-occurred with LSA in the late 80s. I don't even like to go to the LSA very much, partly because of the big-city (often, big-cold-city) restriction. So I very much like the idea of having an independent ADS meeting in a mid-sized or even small city. I doubt I'd be able to go every year, though, and favor an every-other-year schedule, which might give time to plan really good themes (I vote for odd years-- in even years I try to go to the Society for Caribbean Linguistics, which eats up my year's travel budget before Labor Day!). Maybe it would make sense for ADS to co-meet with SMALLER meetings if they want us and if we need bigger numbers? About "ads" on ADS-L: what if we requested people, on the honor system, to submit them to the list-person? Natalie, would that be too much trouble for you? It might sort out the dross. Then again it might not work for the unscrupulous. But things like what Ecoling circulated are fine with me. Could there be a separate group, ADS-ADS, that people could choose to receive or not (if we got a lot of 'em)? I don't know the mechanics of this stuff. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 20:36:44 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Re: The ADS crystal ball > About "ads" on ADS-L: what if we requested people, on the > honor system, to submit them to the list-person? Natalie, would that > be too much trouble for you? It might sort out the dross. Then again You're not talking about soliciting ads, I hope. But I wouldn't mind dealing with the occasional unsolicited ad. > it might not work for the unscrupulous. But things like what Ecoling > circulated are fine with me. Could there be a separate group, ADS-ADS, > that people could choose to receive or not (if we got a lot of 'em)? > I don't know the mechanics of this stuff. I don't expect us to get enough ads to worry about. The main reason I mentioned it when forwarding the one today was that some people are adamantly against any kind of ads. I take it that not many (or maybe any) of you mind occasional ads like that one. That's what I wanted to find out. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 21:39:40 -0500 From: "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr." Subject: Re: An Ad and a Question I don't think that straightforward advertisements are appropriate for the list. Offers to sell are hard to tell apart from advice, sometimes (I could post something like "I hear Eco Linguistics has great fonts; here's their address . . ."); but I think it is pretty clear in most cases. Regards, Bill ****************************************************************************** Bill Kretzschmar Phone: 706-542-2246 Dept. of English FAX: 706-542-2181 University of Georgia Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu Athens, GA 30602-6205 Bitnet: wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 20:15:48 -0800 From: THOMAS CLARK Subject: Re: Sweet home Chicago '95 On Tue, 6 Dec 1994, al'n wrote: > I don't understand #4, grad student guards, but maybe that's only > in the language part. Everyone's out to bash the MLa these days. > Perhaps I haven't been in the game long enough Obviously to have enough > to compare all this too, but I've no complaints. YOu get to stay > in a $300/night hotel in Wash DC for $65. Bellboys still expect > tips though. > ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Dec 1994 to 7 Dec 1994 ********************************************** There are 9 messages totalling 279 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. The ADS crystal ball (3) 2. nice places to have a conference 3. An Ad and a Question (3) 4. new email address 5. ads ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 Dec 1994 21:23:36 -0800 From: THOMAS CLARK Subject: Re: The ADS crystal ball Tim's list of possible sites: Remember that there are a few other places east of Da Big Riva besides Vail. Cheers, tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu (Las Vegas to you, bumpkin :-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 07:16:04 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" Subject: nice places to have a conference On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, THOMAS CLARK wrote: > Tim's list of possible sites: Remember that there are a few other places > east of Da Big Riva besides Vail. > Cheers, > tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu (Las Vegas to you, bumpkin :-) > OK, I get the hint. LV sure beats New Yawk. And for those of you crazy enough to fly, there's all those airlines that offer discount gamblers flights. Still, might be too much glitz there for this homeboy. How 'bout Reno? One place out West I'd also like to visit is Flagstaff, AZ. Nice big U., mountains, desert. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 09:45:46 -0600 From: "James C. Stalker" Subject: Re: An Ad and a Question I would prefer that the ads stay off of ADS. I seek ads when I need to buy something. They seek me in all other media. Maybe this one can be free of them for awhile. Part of the argument for ads on television, for example, is that they pay for the programing. I think that is not the case here. ! <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <> James C. Stalker stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu or stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu Department of English 517/355 1781 Home 517/336 7118 <><> Michigan State University <> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 10:11:32 -0500 From: Tom McClive Subject: Re: An Ad and a Question > The question first: What are your opinions of the posting of ads like the > following on ADS-L? Do you think all commerical ads should be banned from > the list (which would be difficult to enforce, of course, since right now (rest deleted) I am strong against advertisement of almost any form on lists. If ads start appearing, they will never leave. Already there are newsgroups conceded to ads (those with the prefix biz.) and I really don't have a problem with these, since it's like the home shopping channel. If you want to tune in, you can, otherwise you never see it. But distributing ads through listservers is a horrible idea. It is the equilalent of junk mail, only worse. The negligible costs of sending these means that anyone can do it, so you will start getting messages from all over. The sample ad with the original post was for a product that may interest people on this list, but think of all the products that would interest us; you could get several ads a day easily. We had problems on the CELTIC-L list recently when (1) someone used the distribution for a completely unrelated product, and (2) someone was trying to get addresses for a celtic products catalog. The first instance was easy, no one wanted to hear it, but the second was touchy, some people were interested in the catalog. CELTIC-L maintains files on the listserver computer that contain information on subject such as celtic bookstores and language courses. I propose that route as a solution to the ads. If retailers wants to distribute information to list members, they can send information to the listowner and be added to the file. Then when members want information on products, they can get the file. This would entail people learning just a bit about listserver database commands, but it is not hard at all. In the meantime, whenever people receive an ad, it is quite important that they let the sender know how they feel. I always send back a note stating that this is not allowed. I have gotten into many arguements, but I have found that many of the ads come from people who honestly don't know much about the internet and did not know that there was anything wrong with what they are doing. A stronger tactic for the regular advertisers is to send a message to "postmaster[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]..." and then include their address behind the [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] symbol. Tell the postmaster that this person (include their address and a copy of the ad) has been advertising and ask the postmaster to deal with them. I'm sorry to ramble on, but this is a real problem and it will get worse. Some of these people are like the automated phone advertisers: they are willing to annoy a thousand people just to make one sale. The low cost of distributing information on the net is a powerful lure. Tom McClive tommcc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]email.unc.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 10:16:00 CST From: Edward Callary Subject: new email address My friends: My school is - finally - phasing out BITNET; in two months your messages addressed to me at tb0exc1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]niu will bounce. Please, especially if you have a nickname file, re-enter my address as tb0exc1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mvs.cso.niu.edu variation forever, Edward Callary ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 11:12:53 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Re: An Ad and a Question I see that there is a fair amount of sentiment against ads of any kind on ADS-L. I won't forward any in the future. There's nothing (as of now anyway) to prevent people from posting them directly to the list, however. Let's hope it doesn't happen. If it does become a problem, I guess the first step would be to change the list setting to 'send= private', meaning that only subscribers can post to it. I'd hate to have to do that since it would also mean that subscribers using addresses that don't exactly match their subscription addresses couldn't post. (Lots of people move around among different machines with different addresses.) It also would mean that a determined advertiser could simply subscribe to the list for long enough to send the ad. A more drastic step would be to change ADS-L to a moderated list, an idea I am *very much* opposed to. Among other reasons, I hate moderated lists and rarely read mail from them. I delete 99% of the mail from Linguist, for example, unread because I hate sudden spurts of delayed mail, especially when postings are glued together in clumps. > CELTIC-L maintains files on the listserver computer that contain > information on subject such as celtic bookstores and language courses. I > propose that route as a solution to the ads. If retailers wants to > distribute information to list members, they can send information to the > listowner and be added to the file. Then when members want information > on products, they can get the file. This would entail people learning > just a bit about listserver database commands, but it is not hard at all. ADS-L doesn't have any space at UGA for listserv files. But don't forget that we have ftp, gopher, and http files available. I don't anticipate the need for adding a section for ads, but I'm using this as a reminder of the existence of our files: ftp.msstate.edu (pub/archives/ads), gopher. msstate.edu (something like "Resources" on first menu, then top of next menu), and http://www.msstate.edu/Archives/ADS/). Please send suggestions at any time for additions or improvements. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 11:43:00 CST From: Edward Callary Subject: ads Perhaps I'm missing some messages, but those I've read are not vehemently against ads, and others are often welcoming. Like the junk mail I disgard 60% of, I would like to receive ads - for the 40% I at least look over. I would be interested in the new products and their claims, from which I would pick and choose whice to pursue. These strike me much like the several new 'educator's magazines' that now come free, hawking data bases, hardware, and occasionally the good program. I would like to see the list as a first posting for products. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 15:34:51 -0500 From: "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr." Subject: Re: The ADS crystal ball On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, salikoko mufwene wrote: > In Message Tue, 6 Dec 1994 21:40:58 -0500 . . . > I have been wondering why very few American dialectologists have been > engaged by conjectures on the development of AAVE by offering reflections on > the genesis of other varieties of American English. By now it seems more > and more obvious that the cluster of varieties called American English have > resulted from language contact. While there have been several isolated > replies to the scholarship on the genesis of AAVE, replies which typically > claim the British origin of several features, I am surprised that no > serious attempt has been made to account for the transmission of these > features and their reorganization (not necessarily with features from the > same dialectal source in the British Isles) into American English. > Could a special session/conference be organized just in order to encourage > research in this direction? Just an idea not so well thought out that I > want to submit for consideration, since new ideas are solicited. > This is a great question, but I'm not sure how well anybody *could* answer it. After the first wave of settlement, supposedly 90% British with some admixture of Germans and French (particularly), there were successive waves of new settlers depending on political and agricultural conditions (AKA disasters) in various places. While there are some obvious locations where early contact might be studied (Dutch New York, Pennsylvania German, Louisiana Acadian French), it seems far more difficult to deal with the question for the broad reach of American regions. For example, how might contact phenomena have affected English in Michigan in the mid 19th century, when large numbers of German immigrants came in and spoke English by the second generation? Karl Jaberg (1936) raises a similar question about the German of Eastern Germany, including Berlin; he calls it a "colonised" area, which he expects to have affects on the language there, principally more generalized and less dialectal (in the sense of dialects withing boundaries) language. Perhaps John Algeo's forthcoming volume on American English in the Cambridge HEL will give some ideas. Regards, Bill ****************************************************************************** Bill Kretzschmar Phone: 706-542-2246 Dept. of English FAX: 706-542-2181 University of Georgia Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu Athens, GA 30602-6205 Bitnet: wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Dec 1994 15:01:06 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" Subject: Re: The ADS crystal ball On Wed, 7 Dec 1994, salikoko mufwene wrote: > I have been wondering why very few American dialectologists have been > engaged by conjectures on the development of AAVE by offering reflections on > the genesis of other varieties of American English. By now it seems more > and more obvious that the cluster of varieties called American English have > resulted from language contact. While there have been several isolated > replies to the scholarship on the genesis of AAVE, replies which typically > claim the British origin of several features, I am surprised that no > serious attempt has been made to account for the transmission of these > features and their reorganization (not necessarily with features from the > same dialectal source in the British Isles) into American English. I'm sure there are some varieties within Inalnd Northern which may be the result of contact. Many of the features that Mike Linn finds in the Duluth area are obviously the result of a large original population which was largely non-English speaking. Among these are the familar th --> /d/, /t/, various consonant cluster reductions, ellipses like "Do you wanna go Detroit?" (I don't think all the features Mike mentions are confined to the Iron Range). I suspect that throughout Minnesota and maybe parts of Wisconsin, there's some contact effect on vowels (less diphthonging in /o/, for example), and on intonation patterns. Maybe the whole "Northern Cities Vowel Shift" is due to language contact. (But why did Emerson find it in Ithaca in 1890?). Of course, JL Dillard does a lot of that, although as I recall his books like "All American English" seem pretty much restricted to lexicon. But he doesn't seem to believe in dialects. Tim ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 7 Dec 1994 to 8 Dec 1994 ********************************************** There are 20 messages totalling 329 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. An Ad and a Question (5) 2. boot and bonnet (10) 3. born in a barn 4. discourse 5. offending idioms 6. The ADS crystal ball 7. fulbright as verb ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 08:27:15 EST From: BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: An Ad and a Question From: NAME: David Bergdahl FUNC: English TEL: (614) 593-2783 To: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX Some of these people are like the automated phone advertisers: they are willing to annoy a thousand people just to make one sale. The low cost of distributing information on the net is a powerful lure." Well said! Don't we all get a plethora of e-mail messages already? It's really a question of what WE get for allowing them on the gov't-owned net. DAVID David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens OH BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CaTS.OHIOU.EDU ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 07:46:25 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Re: An Ad and a Question >Well said! Don't we all get a plethora of e-mail messages already? It's really >a question of what WE get for allowing them on the gov't-owned net. Not to be overly picky, since your point is good in other ways, but the government doesn't own the net. Among other reasons, "the net" isn't a single entity -- it's a huge conglomeration of separate pieces. And whose government? As far as I know, there is not yet a world government. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 10:14:33 EST From: LEE A ADAMS Subject: boot and bonnet Has anybody ever heard of boot or bonnet as refered to a car? It is a trunck and under the hood area. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 10:20:12 EST From: BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU Subject: Re: An Ad and a Question From: NAME: David Bergdahl FUNC: English TEL: (614) 593-2783 To: MX%"ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu"[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MRGATE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAX Natalie, I was merely referring to the fact that the Defense Dept. set up the Internet originally; whatever investment there was initially was government funded. And not only initially: when Ohio State got its supercomputer the state government paid for the optical fiber link between Columbus and the state-sponsored universities. The obvious analogy is that the state builds highways that private firms use for profit, but not all trucks plop their loads in your den (or whereever your terminal is: mine is in a former-kid's bedroom) db ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 10:26:51 EST From: BETTY LOU GOODWIN Subject: Re: born in a barn People, parents in particular, use manners as a way to instill their own set o f values in their children. Over time, the underlying messages often become vague. However, I do not believe that all manners are just meaningless jargon. Many teach us valueable lessons in life. Such as "Don't walk under ladders". When people are using ladders then people under them could be hit by flying objects. Therefore, the phrase does teach a valueable lesson even if the parents have forgotten why they teach it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 10:35:29 EST From: LE ANNE M SANDERS Subject: discourse Is the pledge of alligiance at sporting events an example of stragetic discourse or is it rote patriotism? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 10:42:18 EST From: CANDI D ADKINS Subject: Re: offending idioms I am writing about Emily's phrase "Jap Slap." I have heard this phrase all my life and I am not sure what it really means either. But, I think it just means to hit someone. I am also doing this to fulfill my assignment for Dr. Irons. * Candi Adkins ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 09:54:50 CST From: salikoko mufwene Subject: Re: The ADS crystal ball >> By now it seems more >> and more obvious that the cluster of varieties called American English have >> resulted from language contact. While there have been several isolated >> replies to the scholarship on the genesis of AAVE, replies which typically >> claim the British origin of several features, I am surprised that no >> serious attempt has been made to account for the transmission of these >> features and their reorganization (not necessarily with features from the >> same dialectal source in the British Isles) into American English. I thank Bill Kretzschmar and Tim Frazer for responding to my suggestion. I should clarify that I used "language contact" in a broad sense covering contact of dialects from the British Isles themselves. Imagine what must have happened when speakers from different parts of the Isles and speaking different regional varieties found themselves on the same location and interacted with each other on a regular basis. I realize it is a big mess to approach (just one of the components of accounting for feature selection in creole genesis!) but it would help to consider ways of facing a more satisfactory account of the development(s) of American English. In one recent authoritative reference of 1991 (which I'd better not identify, in respect to my distinguished colleague!) the explanation given was a traditional one: Americans have not participated in the changes that have taken place in the United Kingdom. This would account for things if, among other things, the British Isles then, today the United Kingdom, were linguistically (understand 'dialectally') homogeneous (with no regional nor social variation) and/or if people from the same background just came and resettled together in North America. We know this AIN'T so. The presence of people from other polities in Europe and elsewhere just made the picture more complex, even in treating Gullah and AAVE as separate phenomena (should we?). I thought initiating a discussion on the subject matter, perhaps going through the same kinds of polemics as on creole genesis, might help us come up with a less illusive conception of the genetic problem and think of the right research agenda to address it. Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 10:01:29 CST From: salikoko mufwene Subject: Re: boot and bonnet In Message Fri, 9 Dec 1994 10:14:33 EST, LEE A ADAMS writes: >Has anybody ever heard of boot or bonnet as refered to a car? It is a trunck >and under the hood area. In an Introduction to Linguistics video produced at the University of Minnesota, featuring George Yule (then on their faculty--around 1983), these are some of the lexical examples discussed to highlight differences between British and American English. Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 10:57:41 -0600 From: Alan R Slotkin Subject: Re: boot and bonnet Yes. Boot and bonnet have been standard Brit. English usage since cars were invented. The bonnet is the hood; the boot the trunk. The British have roadside "Boot Sales," even--similar to flea markets. Alan Slotkin ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 11:00:00 PST From: Ellen Fennell Subject: Re: boot and bonnet My Chinese friend from Jamaica used to refer to the hood of the car as the "bonnet>" E. Fennell ---------- From: ADS-L To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L Subject: boot and bonnet Date: Friday, December 09, 1994 10:14AM Has anybody ever heard of boot or bonnet as refered to a car? It is a trunck and under the hood area. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 17:10:00 GMT From: J.Kirk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]QUEENS-BELFAST.AC.UK Subject: Re: boot and bonnet Standard British terms. A car has a boot unless it's a hatchback. The hood of the engine is the bonnet. Everyone over here will tell you. In Algeo's terms they're 'Britishicisms', but for us they're plain English! John Kirk The Queen's University of Belfast ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 12:15:45 EST From: Vicki Rosenzweig Subject: Re: boot and bonnet I think those are standard British usages (I'm basing this mostly on old mystery novels, though, not conversational data or recent writings). Vicki Rosenzweig vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com New York, NY ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 11:36:10 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" Subject: Re: boot and bonnet Its a Briticism. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 12:17:19 -0600 From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: boot and bonnet When I fulbrighted in France back in '78 we had an old Renault 6. The French word for sparkplug is "bougie" (literally, candle). One of my French colleagues in the English Department at Poitiers asked my one day, when I had trouble starting the car, if the candles were ok. I've come to prefer that translation, though my knowledge of the internal combustion engine has not increased much in the interim. Dennis -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 15:05:09 EST From: Lana Strickland Subject: Re: An Ad and a Question I don't see any problem with getting ads on ads-l. After all, if I had a problem with receiving a plethora of mail I wouldn't be on this list. Besides, I have this convenient little delete key.... Lana Strickland lstrick[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]univscvm.csd.scarolina.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 18:09:56 -0500 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" Subject: fulbright as verb hank you, Dennis, for sharing with us the information that "fulbright" is a verb. Your post was the first time I saw it used thus. (Maybe only fulbrighters use it as a verb) Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 19:01:26 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Re: boot and bonnet > I think those are standard British usages (I'm basing this mostly > on old mystery novels, though, not conversational data or recent > writings). The first car I ever owned (as opposed to my parents' cars, which I drove as a teenager) had a bonnet and boot: an MG Midget. I loved that car. I even loved the owner's manual with its information about bonnet, boot, tyres, etc. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 18:22:07 -0800 From: THOMAS CLARK Subject: Re: An Ad and a Question NO ADVERTISEMENTS ON ADS-L ! ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Dec 1994 23:45:47 -0500 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" Subject: Re: boot and bonnet An MG Midget, Natalie--Wow! I was a TR- person myself. My first TR-3 (I've had t wo of them) was not my first car, but it was my first one after I started earning what then passed for a real salary. In one of life's little ironies, I bought it (a 1963 TR-3B) in Knoxville many years before I had any thought of moving here. Bought it and drove it home to Springfield, Mo. It was powder blue--and of course I called it The Blue Bitch. What a car! Bethany (dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu) ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Dec 1994 to 9 Dec 1994 ********************************************** There are 5 messages totalling 102 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. boot and bonnet (3) 2. Holiday Reminders (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 00:32:27 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: boot and bonnet I've always sort of wondered about the origin of 'bonnet' and 'boot'. I can conjure up a connection between the panels on the sides of a 1930s hood that, when raised up, remind one of the flaps on the sides of women's bonnets. But I'm familiar only with bonnets as worn in America and don't know whether headgear in England was similar in the early part of this century. We had a 1930 Dodge whose trunk was like a piece of luggage (trunk) attached to the back of the body, so I understand the American term, but can't conjure up a visual connection with 'boot'. American 'fender' and British 'wing' both pose nice puzzles for me. I can understand how young people would have an even harder time making these terms mean what they mean. A couple of British motoring terms I like are 'layby' for a pull-off beside the road (has a nice ring) and 'flyover' for an overpass. When I see an overpass that curves up, around, over, and down as it crosses a limited- access road (with a dual carriageway, of course) I want to call the structure a flyover rather than an overpass, and I do say the word sometimes. And I like 'dual carriageway' much better than 'dual lane', because the British term doesn't seem to limit the width as much as the American term does. All this in the name of objective study of linguistic forms. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 07:56:00 GMT From: J.Kirk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]QUEENS-BELFAST.AC.UK Subject: Re: boot and bonnet Don, How about roundabout? John Kirk ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 09:55:21 -0600 From: Michael M T Henderson Subject: Re: boot and bonnet Not to mention 'squab'. That's the seat back, usually of the front seats, as in 'reclining squabs'. And of course the windshield is the windscreen and they spell 'tire' as if it were a Lebanese city AND, to make everything worse, they drive on the wrong side of the road... Michael ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 11:02:29 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Holiday Reminders If you are going to be away from your computer during the holidays and would like to suspend mail from ADS-L during that time, send the following command to LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU: set ADS-L nomail When you want to start receiving mail again, send this command: set ADS-L mail If any of you are a student (or anybody else) leaving your e-mail address permanently at the end of this semester, please remember to unsubscribe from the list by sending this command to the listserv: unsub ADS-L NOTE THAT ALL OF THOSE COMMANDS SHOULD BE SENT TO LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.CC.UGA.EDU, NOT TO ADS-L! Sending them to the list will accomplish nothing -- except cluttering the mailboxes of two hundred or so people. When I see commands mistakenly sent to the list instead of the listserv, I take care of the requests manually, but I will be away from telnet access off and on during the holidays, particularly between Dec. 16 and 23 and between Dec. 27 and Jan. 2. So if you're anticipating having strange ADS-L-related problems, please plan them for dates other than those. :-) --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) P.S. If you're on a system with limited space for incoming mail and are going to be gone during the holidays, *please* remember to send the 'nomail' command before leaving! If you don't, my incoming mail will be overflowing with your bounced mail. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 11:10:13 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Re: Holiday Reminders > If any of you are a student (or anybody else) leaving your e-mail Just thought I'd let you know that that somewhat weird syntax is not a new feature of interest in dialectology. I first wrote "if any of you are students" and then for some reason decided to change it to "if you are a student" -- but I failed to delete the "any of." --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Dec 1994 to 10 Dec 1994 *********************************************** There are 3 messages totalling 94 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. fulbright as verb (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 10 Dec 1994 23:16:50 -0600 From: Dennis Baron Subject: Re: fulbright as verb > > hank you, Dennis, for sharing with us the information that "fulbright" > is a verb. Your post was the first time I saw it used thus. (Maybe > only fulbrighters use it as a verb) > > Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu > Bethany, So far as I know, I'm the only one who has ever used fulbright as a verb. And that was the first time I did it. It's sort of like Bogart, I guess. -- debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu (\ 217-333-2392 \'\ fax: 217-333-4321 Dennis Baron \'\ __________ Department of English / '| ()_________) Univ. of Illinois \ '/ \ ~~~~~~~~ \ 608 S. Wright St. \ \ ~~~~~~ \ Urbana IL 61801 ==). \__________\ (__) ()__________) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 13:33:18 -0800 From: Birrell Walsh Subject: Re: fulbright as verb On Sat, 10 Dec 1994, Dennis Baron wrote: > > So far as I know, I'm the only one who has ever used fulbright as a verb. > And that was the first time I did it. It's sort of like Bogart, I guess. -- Wow to be present at the very moment of neologism! Makes you humble... Birrell Walsh ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 11 Dec 1994 22:08:37 -0600 From: Dennis Baron Subject: Re: fulbright as verb > > So far as I know, I'm the only one who has ever used fulbright as a verb. > > And that was the first time I did it. It's sort of like Bogart, I guess. > -- > > Wow to be present at the very moment of neologism! > > Makes you humble... > > Birrell Walsh > -- Let's not get too humble. We've all been present at moments of neologism, which are neither as rare or as momentous as Birrell Walsh suggests. People use language inventively all the time. It's natural to do so. They invent words, phrases, expressions, idioms, frequently-- we all do. Many of these are oncers, created for a specific situation and abandoned or forgotten thereafter. Most of them are oncers, in fact. But every now and then a nonce word does spread, perhaps only a bit, to a family group, or some friends or co-workers. And rarer still, a neologism may spread beyond that limited circle and be picked up by a large enough following to qualify as a new word. Language change is _not_ unusual. Language stasis is. -- Dennis debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu (\ 217-333-2392 \'\ fax: 217-333-4321 Dennis Baron \'\ __________ Department of English / '| ()_________) Univ. of Illinois \ '/ \ ~~~~~~~~ \ 608 S. Wright St. \ \ ~~~~~~ \ Urbana IL 61801 ==). \__________\ (__) ()__________) ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Dec 1994 to 11 Dec 1994 ************************************************ There are 11 messages totalling 249 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. boot and bonnet (4) 2. ADS Meeting Change (2) 3. Green Bay (3) 4. Get Over It 5. Da Bears ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 00:53:32 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: boot and bonnet John Kirk, A roundabout is a traffic circle, but we don't have many left in the U.S. because they're too dangerous. European 'circuses' have sufficient historic significance, I suspect, that your highway planners keep the roundabouts, but we've "modernized." A roundabout is a circle with several streets coming into it, isn't it? DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 10:18:15 -0500 From: Donald Larmouth Subject: Re: boot and bonnet As a faculty member on a campus (UW-Green Bay) which is (almost) always ecologically correct, I admire the British roundabouts. They chew up far less land that the American cloverleaves (cloverleafs?), overpasses, underpasses, merge zones, and all those other things that pave over the landscape. I wonder what the accident rate for roundabouts really is and whether the number of crashes for bewildered American tourists is any greater than it is for tourists coming to the U.S. and trying to escape O'Hare Airport and make it through the Dan Ryan unscathed. Besides, we need to control population growth . . . . Incidentally, on the subject of neologisms, we have quite a few students who have internships as part of their course work, and in the past two months I have heard three students say, "I internshipped at such-and-such a company," where the more usual locution, at least here, is "I did my internship at such- and-such a company." Maybe this isn't new--it did seem to come trippingly off the tongue. And, one more, (after all, the Packers trounced the Bears yesterday, and we're all a bit giddy), shouldn't it be "fulbrightened" instead of "fulbrighted"? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 11:43:12 -0500 From: Ronald Butters Subject: ADS Meeting Change I thought that I should add my comments concerning the issue of where ADS should meet. My own view is that a separate meeting is a very bad idea. THERE ARE TOO MANY CONFERENCES TO GO TO ALREADY. Adding one more will merely dilute the numbers at each meeting.For example, consider the fact that we have had much difficulty getting people to go to LSA when we have even a single sessions with LSA (as we do this year). OF COURSE we don`t have very many people who will attend the Society`s annual meting in San Diego in late December and THEN A WEEK later attend the LSA in New Orleans! Most people don`t have the time or money to attend both. However, there are going to be quite a few SOCIOlinguists at the New Orleans meeting, I`m sure. They would be more likely to join ADS if we had a full-scale meeting at LSA. Those of us who are hard-core ADS members would be more likely to attend the LSA if our main meeting were with the LSA (in which case I--and many others, I believe--would skip MLA, in which case we would have the same sort of trouble getting an MLA ADS session of even four papers; or so I predict). There have been some arguments to the effect that LAVIS was such a success, we ought to model the annual meeting on that. Nice thought, but not very much in touch with reality. LAVIS meets every TEN years, and has been able to do so only with massive outside funding. ADS has to met every year, and we aren`t going to get large-scale outside funding. We have to meet every year because we have to have an Executive Committee meeting every year and we have to have a Business meeting every year. If that isn`t in our by-laws, it certainly should be. Annual business meetings and annual Executive Committee meetings need to be scheduled to make it easiest for the members to attend. Members can most easily get institutional funds to attend meetings where their Departments are well represented--i.e., LSA or MLA. My own preference would be to go to LSA with our major annual meeting--which is where the linguistic action, by and large, is at, and which is a smaller meeting, and one which meets at a more convenient time for many. My second choice would be to stay with MLA--at least people can get funded to go there. My third choice would be to meet with NWAVE (actually, this would be my first choice if I thought that members would find it easy to get funding)--NWAVE is already the equivalent of an Independent meeting, and it at least has the virtue of having a large number of highly interesting social and regional dialect papers--the young faculty members and graduate students who in my opinion are the future of dialect study in the USA attend NWAVE on a regular basis. One final note: Somebody suggested along the way that LSA was considering Cincinnati as a possible meeting location. How could this be? Several years ago, LSA overwhelmingly passed a resolution disallowing meetings in locales which have sodomy laws. This year, the Society is stretching it by meeting in New Orleans; although New Orleans is in a state which has a sodomy law, according to Maggie Reynolds of LSA the City of New Orleans has officially declared itself on record as opposing discrimination against sexual-preference minorities. I guess that that is in the spirit of the resolution. However, since Cincinnati has recently overturned its antidiscrimination law, I don`t see how LSA could ask its gay and lesbian members to attend a meeting in a city which officially allows discrimination against them. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 10:51:41 -0600 From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: boot and bonnet > >And, one more, (after all, the Packers trounced the Bears yesterday, and we're >all a bit giddy), shouldn't it be "fulbrightened" instead of "fulbrighted"? Actually it should be "fulbrought." Dennis -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 09:36:08 PST From: "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs, CO" Subject: Re: boot and bonnet As one who had to take remedial english, Rhet. 100, at the UofI some 30 years ago, I hesitate to correct a member of UofI's English Department, but wouldn'f "fulbrought" be appropriate iff the original word was "fulbring"? %^) -- Jim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 14:45:47 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: ADS Meeting Change On Ron Butters's last point: Let me clarify the temporal ordering of the decision-making procedure at the LSA on where (not) to hold meetings. At the time the executive committee was exploring the feasibility of holding a meeting in Cincinnati, no anti-sodomy measure was on the books for that jurisdiction. If it had been, Cincinnati would have been eliminated from contention before the question of its meeting-room-sufficiency arose. The New Orleans question is one that has been a bit thorny (I believe there was some discussion of THAT decision on outil a while back), but I'd be happy to elaborate if someone wanted more details. Larry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 14:28:16 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" Subject: Re: Green Bay I need to stick in this unscholarly post: lest Don Larmouth and the rest of the folks up in Green Bay get too excited about last Sunday's score: Remember, It's not the 85 Bears you beat; It's not the 67 Packers you got. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 16:58:28 -0500 From: Donald Larmouth Subject: Re: Green Bay It's hard in this town not to get caught up in the collective giddiness that comes along with the Bears game--and that may be too polite a term for it. However, by Monday afternoon I'm usually back in my lonely position as a last- ditch Vikings fan (of course, I'm really a Bud Grant fan, and we'll not see his like again any time soon). However (to keep this a legitimate ADS-L exchange) it is also a time for some self-affirming pronunciations--one sees assorted versions of "Beat Da Bears" signs around town (often in bars, of which we have a great many), asserting the negative prestige of the apico-dental variants for the interdentals. (Note: I have never seen a "Beat De Bears" sign, a spelling which I think would be associated with AAVE by way of the Uncle Remus stories, and it wasn't that long ago that virtually the only African-Americans in Green Bay were football players or their families.) I did see a "Beat Duh Bears" sign once, but I think it was intended to be pejorative to the Bears fans, not a self-affirming form, since it included a cartoon of a very stupid-looking Bears fan--with a doubtless unintended but still striking resemblance to many Packer fans of a Sunday afternoon. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 17:06:32 -0500 From: Donald Larmouth Subject: Re: Green Bay I think I meant reverse prestige and not negative prestige. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 18:17:01 LCL From: Lisa Gray Subject: Get Over It I'm a reporter for the Washington City Paper, and am working on a story about how a phrase can temporarily take on an added meaning. Specifically, I'm writing about Marion Barry's advice to white voters upset that he'd won the Democratic mayoral primary: "Get over it." Local politicians and the Washington media buzzed with the phrase for a few weeks, turning it to whatever subject was at hand. Nervous about voting for a Republican? Get over it. Do you believe Congress will allow the District both a commuter tax and an increased federal payment? Get over it. And so on. Eventually, though, the phrase seemed to lose its edge, and its appearances dropped off. I'm looking for an academic who could comment on such phrases' short half-lives. If you could--or if you know someone who could--please send me e-mail. --Lisa Gray lgray[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]washcp.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Dec 1994 20:59:19 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" Subject: Re: Da Bears One problem with our alphabet, among of course many others, is that we don't have a symbol for schwa. When the guys on Sat. nite Live. would say "DAH Bears," that was of course a spelling pronunciation. "Duh" might be demeaning but of course is more accurate, phonetically. Of course, I think the 'd' is actually dental, not an alveolar stop, so thats another distortion caused by this strange dialect spelling. I'm doing this cause I have a set of exams in the other room I don't want to grade. Tim ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Dec 1994 to 12 Dec 1994 ************************************************ There are 11 messages totalling 318 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Get Over It (2) 2. Da Bears (4) 3. best word of 1994 4. Speaking of San Diego 5. Roundabouts and Squares 6. boot and bonnet 7. Re[2]: Get Over It ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 09:58:56 -0500 From: Allan Denchfield Subject: Re: Get Over It On Mon, 12 Dec 1994, Lisa Gray wrote: > I'm a reporter for the Washington City Paper, and am working on a > story about how a phrase can temporarily take on an added meaning. > Specifically, I'm writing about Marion Barry's advice to white voters > upset that he'd won the Democratic mayoral primary: "Get over it." > > Local politicians and the Washington media buzzed with the phrase for > a few weeks, turning it to whatever subject was at hand. Nervous about > voting for a Republican? Get over it. Do you believe Congress will > allow the District both a commuter tax and an increased federal > payment? Get over it. And so on. > > Eventually, though, the phrase seemed to lose its edge, and its > appearances dropped off. > > I'm looking for an academic who could comment on such phrases' short > half-lives. If you could--or if you know someone who could--please > send me e-mail. I'll leave the analysis to others, but I also recall the appropriation (from a commercial) by political figures (Mondale?) of the phrase' "where's the beef?" Doesn't every catchy jingle have this potentiality of being re-worked into a new context? -Obi ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 09:22:48 -0600 From: Katherine Catmull Subject: Re: Da Bears At 8:59 PM 12/12/94 -0600, Timothy C. Frazer wrote: >One problem with our alphabet, among of course many others, is that we >don't have a symbol for schwa. When the guys on Sat. nite Live. would >say "DAH Bears," that was of course a spelling pronunciation. "Duh" >might be demeaning but of course is more accurate, phonetically. I may be misunderstanding what you're saying here, but there are parts of Chicago where "the" (or "dah") takes a much flatter sound than you'd get in, say, Duh Bronx. I think the Saturday Night Live people got it right, and "dah" would be the best spelling. Kate Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 09:44:40 -0600 From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: best word of 1994 I won't be at the New Words session at the ADS meeting, but I would like to put in my nomination. It's the phrase I picked for my annual "best words of the year" commentary on our local public radio station. It's time for me to name the best word of the year. To cut the suspense short, the winner for 1994 is "the contract with America." The best word of 1993 was Vice President Al Gore's "information superhighway," which is actually two words that traveled with an entourage of metaphors: on ramps, off ramps, rest stops, toll booths, gridlock and road kill. Now, a year later, it looks like the information superhighway took us for a ride. For one thing, Vice President Gore relabeled it the National Information Infrastructure, a name that should have died in committee. For another, I'm still waiting for the 500 cable channels that he promised. This year, it's the Republicans' turn to make empty promises. Their contribution is "the contract with America," a phrase that's been on everyone's lips since the Republicans took control of the Congress. Soon the contract with America will be a book, and after that, a TV miniseries. But it won't generate a lot of metaphors. Even Republicans can't wring poetry out of a bunch of "whereases" and "dinguses in rei." The contract with America seeks to change the direction of our society in fundamental ways- ways I find appalling. I'm not sure I like it as word of the year, either. But so many people are using it that it won that contest fair and square. It may be a momentous phrase as well as a popular one, but as a piece of language it falls flat. It is not the Great Society or the New Deal, products of Democratic phrase makers. Maybe those words didn't always work, but at least they were poetic. You could conjure with them, or play poker. It is not even the information superhighway. What words have the Republican linguists coined? They brought us the Great Depression; they assured us they weren't crooks; they misspelled "potato"; and now they're offering us a contract. The earth did not move when they wrote this one. The Republican spin doctors realize that the contract with America sounds a little stuffy, so they have given it a pet name. They call it "the contract" for short. But "contract" just isn't a cuddly word. Contracts suggest tough guys in bad suits sitting around picking calamari out of their teeth and reminiscing about Jimmy Hoffa. Also, contracts imply lawyers. And when lawyers are involved, things tend to get expensive. But at least the contract with America represents the Republicans' true position. They have replaced family values, a slogan that didn't get them very far, with contractual obligations, which is what they meant by family values all along. Contracts mean everything to Republicans. They converse in contracts. They write in fine print. They own the factories that make all the dots on the dotted lines. They eat contracts for breakfast. In the contract with America, the Republicans are the parties of the first part, hereinafter known in paragraph one, subsection b, obfuscation 34, as the owners of all the marbles, with all the rights and privileges thereunto appertaining. The Democrats have now become the party of the second part, hereinafter those who have lost all of their marbles. The Republicans contend that the contract with America binds them to terms dictated by the electorate. But in my experience, people who talk compulsively about their contract all the time are not the ones who are bound by it. They are the ones who want to enforce it. The contract with America has been handed down, not hammered out. Its authors want to hold the rest of us to its terms. They want our marbles too. The contract with America may be the word of the year, but I'm still not ready to sign. My lawyer friends assure me that a contract is only as good as the people who draw it up, so there's some hope that it won't get far. And even if the contract remains in force this time next year, its provision for term limits will ensure that we won't have to pick it as the best word for 1995. -------- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 09:51:20 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" Subject: Re: Da Bears On Tue, 13 Dec 1994, Katherine Catmull wrote: > > I may be misunderstanding what you're saying here, but there are parts of > Chicago where "the" (or "dah") takes a much flatter sound than you'd get > in, say, Duh Bronx. I think the Saturday Night Live people got it right, > and "dah" would be the best spelling. > > Kate Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com > That;s an interesting bit of news. I haven't lived in Chicago much so didn't get to hear it. Thanks. By "flatter" sound did you mean like with the tongue raised and tensed, like toward barred [I]? I would describe the low central [a] as "open" rather than flat. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 09:58:18 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Speaking of San Diego Do you happen to have the final program online, Allan? If so, why don't you post it? Or send it to me and I'll put it in ftp/gopher/WWW space. How close to accurate is the program that was in NADS last May? It's what I've been looking at in trying to figure out how much ADS stuff I can fit in between interviewing over in MLA-Land. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 10:51:10 CST From: salikoko mufwene Subject: Re: Get Over It In Message Mon, 12 Dec 1994 18:17:01 LCL, Lisa Gray writes: > I'm a reporter for the Washington City Paper, and am working on a > story about how a phrase can temporarily take on an added meaning. > Specifically, I'm writing about Marion Barry's advice to white voters > upset that he'd won the Democratic mayoral primary: "Get over it." > > Local politicians and the Washington media buzzed with the phrase for > a few weeks, turning it to whatever subject was at hand. Nervous about > voting for a Republican? Get over it. Do you believe Congress will > allow the District both a commuter tax and an increased federal > payment? Get over it. And so on. Chances are that this phrase has carried with it some of the interpretations it receives in African-American English. In Clarence Major's JUBA TO JIVE (1994), one of the meanings of GET OVER (SOMETHING) is 'overcome difficulty; to survive hardship.' E.g., "I can get over it without working too hard." In Geneva Smitherman's BLACK TALK (1994), GIT OVAH is explained as follows: 1) A Traditional Black Church term referring to making it over to the spiritual side of life, having struggled and overcome sin. "My soul look back and wonder how I got ovah." 2) By extension, to overcome racism, oppression, or any obstacle in the way to your goal. Professor Smitherman may be reached at the following office number: 517-353-9252. I hope this helps you, Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 10:51:10 CST From: salikoko mufwene Subject: Re: Da Bears In Message Tue, 13 Dec 1994 09:51:20 -0600, "Timothy C. Frazer" writes: >> I may be misunderstanding what you're saying here, but there are parts of >> Chicago where "the" (or "dah") takes a much flatter sound than you'd get >> in, say, Duh Bronx. I think the Saturday Night Live people got it right, >> and "dah" would be the best spelling. >> >> Kate Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com >> >That;s an interesting bit of news. I haven't lived in Chicago much so >didn't get to hear it. Thanks. > >By "flatter" sound did you mean like with the tongue raised and tensed, >like toward barred [I]? I would describe the low central [a] as "open" >rather than flat. I may have a distorted perception as a non-native speaker, but in the phrase "Dah Bulls," with which I am more familiar, the article sounds somewhere between a schwa and [a]. (I don't remember whether I have seen "dah" always spelled with "h".) Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 12:56:22 -0600 From: Katherine Catmull Subject: Re: Da Bears At 10:51 AM 12/13/94 -0600, salikoko mufwene wrote: >In Message Tue, 13 Dec 1994 09:51:20 -0600, > "Timothy C. Frazer" writes: >>By "flatter" sound did you mean like with the tongue raised and tensed, >>like toward barred [I]? I would describe the low central [a] as "open" >>rather than flat. > > I may have a distorted perception as a non-native speaker, but in the >phrase "Dah Bulls," with which I am more familiar, the article sounds >somewhere between a schwa and [a]. (I don't remember whether I have seen >"dah" always spelled with "h".) Yes, thank you. That's more or less where I'd put the sound, too. Sorry I wasn't more clear before--I am obviously not an expert on phonetics. I've been searching for a sound to compare it to, and the closest I've come is that, um, guitar-noise Beavis & Butthead make when they're playing air guitar. It has that nasal quality. When I was visiting Chicago about three years ago, one of the papers ran a column about the "dah Bears" phenomenon, which evidently many people there were rather sensitive about. The writer located that particular "a" sound combined with the final "s" (rather than [z]) as specific to one small area of the city, but I can't recall where it was. Kate Catmull kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 13:50:15 -0600 From: Joan Livingston-Webber Subject: Roundabouts and Squares We have MANY roundabouts in this country, expecially in small towns in Illinois and Iowa--that's where I'm familiar with them anyway. Only we don't call them roundabouts, we call them squares. And in the center around which the one-way traffic flows is a courthouse. -- Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu "What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other." -Clifford Geertz ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 18:27:58 -0500 From: "Peter L. Patrick" Subject: Re: boot and bonnet Now, that's interesting: I've always known both "hood" and "bonnet" for the front part of the car. I grew up in Jamaica, but never thought of "bonnet" as a Jamaicanism, or even a Briticism. Is it? Oh yes, I've got "boot" too, but that seems even more American to me... -peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Dec 1994 17:16:33 LCL From: Lisa Gray Subject: Re[2]: Get Over It Many thanks for your help. --Lisa Gray Washington City Paper ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Dec 1994 to 13 Dec 1994 ************************************************ There are 18 messages totalling 391 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. best word of 1994 2. Roundabouts and Squares (4) 3. boot and bonnet 4. fulbright as verb 5. Word / meeting / eating of the year 6. PS on new words (2) 7. Get Over It (3) 8. listservers for dialectology (2) 9. Word...of the year (2) 10. Pigtails snap poll ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 04:41:33 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" Subject: Re: best word of 1994 The contract would work fine if corporations were benevolent institutions, or if all businesses were mom-and-pop operations instead of interantional cancers. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 05:16:08 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" Subject: Re: Roundabouts and Squares On Tue, 13 Dec 1994, Joan Livingston-Webber wrote: > We have MANY roundabouts in this country, expecially > in small towns in Illinois and Iowa--that's where I'm familiar > with them anyway. Only we don't call them roundabouts, we call them > squares. And in the center around which the one-way > traffic flows is a courthouse. > -- > Joan Livingston-Webber webber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]unomaha.edu > "What gets better is the precision with which we vex each other." > -Clifford Geertz > Yes, but one difference--at least here in macomb--is that people don't tear around them at freeway speeds. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 09:12:59 -0600 From: "James C. Stalker" Subject: Re: boot and bonnet When I was in London this summer, I was told that boot sales are frowned on by the authorities because a great deal of black market "stuff" passes through boots in boot sales. Myth or fact? ! <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <> James C. Stalker stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu or stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu Department of English 517/355 1781 Home 517/336 7118 <><> Michigan State University <> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 09:13:11 -0600 From: "James C. Stalker" Subject: Re: fulbright as verb Indeed, nonce language is particularly difficult for foreign students learning English. "But it wasn't like that in the text book." Syntactic shifts such as Dennis's fulbright (v) bother then a lot in my experience. ! <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> <> James C. Stalker stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pilot.msu.edu or stalker[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu Department of English 517/355 1781 Home 517/336 7118 <><> Michigan State University <> <><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 09:43:20 -0500 From: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Word / meeting / eating of the year Dennis (B)'s posting is a reminder that ADS will once again choose and announce a (new) Word (or phrase) of the Year. Our own terminology causes confusion; does it have to be totally new, or nearly new, or just newly prominent? and how can a phrase be a word? ADS-L-ers know that answers to these questions could tie up our e-mailboxes for months, but it's hard to explain the nuances to the outside world in soundbites. Anyhow: This year the WOTY session has been bifurcated. Nominations will be made and received at 10 am Wednesday the 28th. David Barnhart will have his own list, and John and Adele Algeo's (they can't attend this year but have sent two pages), and will present those and consider others, making a list of final candidates in cooperation with others present. Then the next afternoon, at our usual 5 pm time, we'll have the usual vote on the winners. Please join in, if you can. And in case we get media attention as we did last year, please let me know if you'd like to help with newspaper, radio, and TV interviews. If you can't be there, you *can* join in the deliberations by posting your own nominations on ADS-L. (Or if for some reason you're shy, send them directly to me.) Even if you can be there, advance notice will help. As for the meeting itself, and the eating - you don't have to remind me that the purpose of our gathering is not sybaritic; but it just seems to me that our minds will function the best when our bodies are treated the best. So I thought I'd let you know that, every Thursday evening in December, Le Meridien's award-winning Marius Restaurant has "Le Tour de France," touring the magnificent cuisine of France, starting at (gulp) $39 per person; every Friday evening at the less upscale but still very satisfying L'Escale in Le Meridien, is a Latin Extravaganza, $19.95, a South American buffet, with live music by Jaime Valle & Equinox. Menu includes: Cebiche salads, taco bar, casserole from Brazil (black beans, smoked meats and andouilles, dumplings of dried cod), chicken fajitas from Mexico, flank steak marinated in Dorada beer from Argentina.... I'll tell you another time about Kaffeen's Espresso Bar at the nearby Ferry Landing. Happy holidays - AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 11:47:19 -0500 From: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: PS on new words You may well ask, aside from (new) Word (or phrase) of the Year, what other categories will we choose from? Well, it's still to be determined whether we use our previous categories like Most Useful, Most Unnecessary, Most Likely to Succeed. But we may have "most"s by categories, so you might consider - Teen or (slang) word of the year Political WOTY (that's where Dennis B's would fit) Scientific/technical WOTY Your comments are welcome. Thanks - AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 11:26:44 -0600 From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: PS on new words When I chose "the contract with America" for my personal WOTY, I considered a number of others as well. I offer the other choices for the ADS nomination pool: OSFA (acronym for One Size Fits All, which of course it doesn't) morph (virtual reality for the Power Rangers generation) the bell curve (where most of the people are below average) Pentium (the flawed chip that calculated IQs for the bell curve) and of course, the contract with America (guaranteed to raise the gross national IQ) dennis -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 12:40:14 -0500 From: "Peter L. Patrick" Subject: Re: Get Over It There's a less benevolent sense of "get over" which is also used in AAVE. I guess it's related to Smitherman's second sense, but with an addition of "by hook or by crook", or even "pulling a fast one". However, I don't think any of these senses are very transitive; theymay take prepositional objects, but I've never heard any of them taking direct objects. As usual, I may be wrong (speakers do the strangest things when linguists are not looking). But I sincerely doubt that any of this was informing our once-and-future Mayor's use when he said "Get over it" to the white population of DC the day after the election. There was quite a brouhaha in the media here, with Barry denying that he ever said it or directed it to white people (though the recorded quotes left no doubt that he had) and various columnists and talk-show hosts, white and black, interpreting it. My sense is that it was clearly understood by most people as a message to the rich and powerful white minority to overcome their resistance to a Barry victory, which Barry repeatedly cast as racism in and after the election (though as William Raspberry pointed out none of the other local races showed evidence of a white- black voter split). The sense of GIT OVAH quoted above is clearly representative of an oppressed minority's ability to triumph or succeed, so Barry would've have to have said "We got over". If he was inviting the white population to "get over too", then who are the oppressors they're supposed to triumph over? I can't see it. --peter patrick georgetown univ. linguistics dept. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 12:48:07 -0500 From: "Peter L. Patrick" Subject: Re: Roundabouts and Squares Addition to Joan's and Tim's comments: In Jamaica where I grew up we also had roundabouts. I can't speak for Britain, but they were never square: squares were called "squares". You might have a square space with a circle in the middle of it which the traffic went around, and that could be a roundabout, but the traffic path would be circular, not square. There arre lots of roundabouts in Washington DC, called by the locals "circles". Unfortunately, people DO tear around them at freeway speed, and at the one nearest my home (Dupont Circle) I've seen several accidents and many near-accidents in a year. Folk wisdom is that it's out-of-towners who (a) don't know where they're going to begin with, and (b) don't know the rules for driving in them, that are the cause, and it's probably largely true, but taxis and (some) bike messengers certainly deserve blame too! Dupont Circle, Scott Circle, Thomas Circle etc. are lovely, but as either cyclist or pedestrian I always feel I'm taking my life in my hands when I go through these "roundabouts"... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 11:59:39 -0600 From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Get Over It Isn't the sense in which Marion Barry is using "get over it" more like "deal with it", ie, get used to the idea, because it isn't going to go away (ie, he isn't going to go away)? DB -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 13:21:49 -0400 From: Elizabeth Martinez Subject: listservers for dialectology I am teaching a general introduction course this Spring in Dialectology and I would like my students to explore some of the discussion groups that may exist. This will help them gather information for their final project. The students will decide the languages and dialects they want to study. I would guess that many will want to work with English, however I will encourage our foreign language students to collect information on the language they are studying. Can you tell me what other discussion groups or other listservers are out there? Thanks for your help. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 13:35:28 -0500 From: "Peter L. Patrick" Subject: Re: Get Over It I think that's right: "deal with the reality" = "get over your resistance to the reality", more or less. And on second thought, I take back what I said about the AAVE 'GIT OVAH' not being transitive, but I still don't think it applies here-- the political context and polarity seems all wrong. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 13:45:17 -0500 From: Cathy Ball Subject: Re: listservers for dialectology One might like to check out the home page for Web resources in Linguistics, just announced on the LINGUIST list, at http://engserve.tamu.edu/files/linguistics/linguist/datasources.html -- Cathy Ball (cball[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]guvax.georgetown.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 14:30:10 -0500 From: Jesse T Sheidlower Subject: Re: Word...of the year > This year the WOTY session has been bifurcated. Nominations will be made and > received at 10 am Wednesday the 28th. David Barnhart will have his own list, > and John and Adele Algeo's (they can't attend this year but have sent two > pages), and will present those and consider others, making a list of final > candidates in cooperation with others present. Then the next afternoon, at > our usual 5 pm time, we'll have the usual vote on the winners. > Please join in, if you can. And in case we get media attention as we did > last year, please let me know if you'd like to help with newspaper, radio, > and TV interviews. > If you can't be there, you *can* join in the deliberations by posting your > own nominations on ADS-L. (Or if for some reason you're shy, send them > directly to me.) Even if you can be there, advance notice will help. If there really is a day and a half between the nominations and the voting, I'd like to suggest that the list of nominations be posted to ADS-L, and allow non-attendees to vote by proxy by E-mail. This would not only permit the participation of more Society members, but would also give us a gigantic hook and which to hang a publicity effort--the information superhighway, our very successful word of the year, is still enough in the news that using it to vote for next year's WotY would be noticed. Jesse T Sheidlower Random House Reference ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 14:32:24 -0500 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" Subject: Re: Word...of the year I second Jesse's suggestion that we Internetters vote on WsOTY. Bethany DUmas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 16:11:51 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" Subject: Re: Roundabouts and Squares what do they call these in Massachusetts? When I was there in 74 for the linguistics institute at Amerherst, we went thru one in Boston and had a nasty fencer bender (with a nasty person). Traffic circles? They're nuts. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 09:20:19 +0800 From: Frank Stevenson Subject: Re: Pigtails snap poll On Tue, 22 Nov 1994, Warren A. Brewer wrote: > Don't ask, just do it! ---Wab. > > ----------------------------Original message---------------------------- > 46;m;26;MD(0-12),HI(13-15),MA(16-18),CA(19-39),Taiwan(39-46);teacher > pigtail,braid,queue;ponytail;pigtails,braids;gap > > ************************************************************************ > > The above is how I answered the following survey. > Send data directly to me (ncut054 [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] twnmoe10), and results can be > summarized to the list. Names & e-mail addresses will be kept > confidential, unless respondents indicate otherwise. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Line 1: > Respondent's background information (separate fields with semicolons). > > Field 1: Age > 2: Sex (m or f) > 3: Educational level (in years) > 4: Residence(s)/timeline: Place(Age-span) (separate different > residences with commas) > 5: Occupation(s). > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Line 2: > Responses to the following questions (again, separate fields with > semicolons). If you have no word for a concept, enter "gap". > > Field 1: What do you call one single plait of braided hair that hangs > down the back? > 2: What do you call it when the hair is clasped or otherwise > bound into a single bunch so as to hang down the back like > a horse's tail? > 3: What do you call two plaits of braided hair that hang down > the back? > 4: What do you call it when the hair is clasped or otherwise > bound into two bunches so as to hang down the back like > two horse's tails? > > [End of survey] hmmm: what is a "field"? (well, i can guess, i guess....) 1. hmm: well, cld be "pigtail" or chinese "queue" (? queue-line? cue-stick?) 2. ponytail (mainly american?) 3. pigtails (mainly american?) (but you cheated by "cueing" or "clueing them in"--glueing them in?--with your header!!!) 4. ponytails, walrus tails (alaska) fws, taipei ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 23:27:52 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: Roundabouts and Squares I believe the default New England term is 'rotary'. And yes, the Boston ones are pretty brutal. Larry ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 13 Dec 1994 to 14 Dec 1994 ************************************************ There are 13 messages totalling 487 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Roundabouts and Squares (3) 2. LSA 3. plugs and fruit (2) 4. FWD>Holiday Giving (fwd) (2) 5. /biyl/ (2) 6. He was --> He's 7. Holiday Giving--Don't Mail to Those Addresses 8. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 09:54:12 -0500 From: ALICE FABER Subject: Re: Roundabouts and Squares Here in Connecticut, the official DOT designation for rotaries is "traffic circle". There aren't many in the state, but even those can be terrifying when some drivers treat them as no-way stop intersections! Totally unrelated (except via cars), but do drivers in other states put Christmas wreathes on the front grills of station wagons or APVs? Big red ribbons? Alice Faber Faber[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Haskins.Yale.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 08:56:41 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" Subject: Re: LSA I confess with some embarassment that I have never attended an LSA meeting. So, will someone solve a mystery for me: what;s a "poster session?" Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 09:01:21 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" Subject: Re: plugs and fruit My wife, who grew up in N. Florida, and stayed in the South (at UNC and Mercer) until the age of 27, just now said she like to peel tangerines and eat the "plugs." She isn't sure she remembers right, but thinks that is what she alwyas called the sections of the tangerines. Anybody else encountered this? Is it regional or idiolectal? Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 13:24:12 -0600 From: mlinn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]D.UMN.EDU Subject: FWD>Holiday Giving (fwd) Forwarded message: > From lknopp Wed Dec 14 16:21 CST 1994 > Date: Wed, 14 Dec 1994 15:06:47 -0600 (CST) > From: lawrence knopp > Subject: FWD>Holiday Giving (fwd) > To: ulgba[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ub.d.umn.edu, vcclgbdi[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ub.d.umn.edu, santa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]north.pole.org, > elves[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]north.pole.org, rudolph[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]north.pole.org > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Content-Length: 5493 > X-Status: > > I'm forwarding this so people can participate if they want. It sounds > worthwhile, painless and FREE! > Michael Linn >> > > >-------------------------------------- > >Date: 12/13/94 6:20 PM > >Subject: Holiday Giving > > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > >Want to do a kind thing for some hungry kids this holiday season? > >If not, press delete now. If you have a heart and a minute, read on. > > > >Sun Microsystems is donating $0.10 to a food bank each time an Internet > >user sends an email msg to any (or all) of the three addresses below: > > > > santa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]north.pole.org > > elves[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]north.pole.org > > rudolph[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]north.pole.org > > > >Doesn't matter what the msg contains; it could be an empty msg, full of > >invisible holiday spirit. Pick your favorite and send email there a few > >times. If *everyone* on the net were to BCC all three addresses with every > >msg they posted to a list for one day, the counter would top out almost > >instantly, so this is like a weird and wonderful test of Mass Human Kindness. > > > >You can do your part to help big fat international corporations make > >good on their Promises of donations to charities. It only takes 250,000 > >msgs to reach the $25,000 Sun promised to donate to a Bay Area food bank > >for homeless families. Other corporations are donating to selected causes, > >including a banking firm in Washington DC that will donate up to $5,000 to > >the Chesapeake Wildlife Heritage (only 50,000 msgs...li'l baby > >birdies...furry baby rabbits... c'MON now! :) > > > >Other corporations are participating too: any firms wishing to add matching > >funds should contact Luther Brown at . The > >announcement's in the Dec 94 Advanced Systems magazine (pg 22). Who knows, > >someday you might see companies all across the globe donating part of their > >obscene profits to children's charities in Sarajevo, San Francisco, Manila, > >Mogadishu, Bombay, Moscow, Port-au-Prince, Bucharest, Shanghai, Rio de > >Janeiro... everywhere Santa stops in. > > > >Remember: any user can send multiple msgs, so please be counted at least > >_once_, OK? There are not many such opportunities to directly affect > >something with your computer, and it doesn't take the Compassion of > >Siddhartha to see what's good about putting food in the mouths of little > >children with no home, wherever they are. > > > >Lobo > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >| Redwood Design Automation | The task of an educator should be to | > >| Ph: 408-428-5473 (office) | irrigate the desert, not clear the forest | > >| 408-934-9918 (home) | __o | > >| 408-894-2498 (fax) | _`\<,_ | > >------------------------------------------------------- (*)/ (*) ------------ > > > > > > > > > > > ========================== > Richard A. Walker > Professor and Chair > Department of Geography > University of California, Berkeley 94720 > (510) 642-3901 -3370(FAX) > ========================== > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 13:27:41 -0600 From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Roundabouts and Squares I think they call them rotaries. There was a particularly nasty one on Rte. 1 going north out of the city, and another south, on the way to the Cape. Lots of minor ones as well. But I haven't back theah since '75. Dennis -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street home: 217-384-1683 Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 13:35:36 -0600 From: Michael Linn Subject: FWD>Holiday Giving (fwd) Forwarded message: > I'm forwarding this so people can participate if they want. It sounds > worthwhile, painless and FREE! > -- Michael D. Linn > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Subject: FWD>Holiday Giving > > >Date: 14 Dec 1994 09:17:43 -0800 > >From: "Ron Choy" > >Subject: FWD>Holiday Giving > > > >Mail*Link(r) SMTP FWD>Holiday Giving > > > >Please forward, if you wish. > > > >-------------------------------------- > >Date: 12/13/94 6:20 PM > >Subject: Holiday Giving > > > >---------- Forwarded message ---------- > > > >Want to do a kind thing for some hungry kids this holiday season? > >If not, press delete now. If you have a heart and a minute, read on. > > > >Sun Microsystems is donating $0.10 to a food bank each time an Internet > >user sends an email msg to any (or all) of the three addresses below: > > > > santa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]north.pole.org > > elves[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]north.pole.org > > rudolph[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]north.pole.org > > > >Doesn't matter what the msg contains; it could be an empty msg, full of > >invisible holiday spirit. Pick your favorite and send email there a few > >times. If *everyone* on the net were to BCC all three addresses with every > >msg they posted to a list for one day, the counter would top out almost > >instantly, so this is like a weird and wonderful test of Mass Human Kindness. > > > >You can do your part to help big fat international corporations make > >good on their Promises of donations to charities. It only takes 250,000 > >msgs to reach the $25,000 Sun promised to donate to a Bay Area food bank > >for homeless families. Other corporations are donating to selected causes, > >including a banking firm in Washington DC that will donate up to $5,000 to > >the Chesapeake Wildlife Heritage (only 50,000 msgs...li'l baby > >birdies...furry baby rabbits... c'MON now! :) > > > >Other corporations are participating too: any firms wishing to add matching > >funds should contact Luther Brown at . The > >announcement's in the Dec 94 Advanced Systems magazine (pg 22). Who knows, > >someday you might see companies all across the globe donating part of their > >obscene profits to children's charities in Sarajevo, San Francisco, Manila, > >Mogadishu, Bombay, Moscow, Port-au-Prince, Bucharest, Shanghai, Rio de > >Janeiro... everywhere Santa stops in. > > > >Remember: any user can send multiple msgs, so please be counted at least > >_once_, OK? There are not many such opportunities to directly affect > >something with your computer, and it doesn't take the Compassion of > >Siddhartha to see what's good about putting food in the mouths of little > >children with no home, wherever they are. > > > >Lobo > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > >| Redwood Design Automation | The task of an educator should be to | > >| Ph: 408-428-5473 (office) | irrigate the desert, not clear the forest | > >| 408-934-9918 (home) | __o | > >| 408-894-2498 (fax) | _`\<,_ | > >------------------------------------------------------- (*)/ (*) ------------ > > > > > > > > > > > ========================== > Richard A. Walker > Professor and Chair > Department of Geography > University of California, Berkeley 94720 > (510) 642-3901 -3370(FAX) > ========================== > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 15:36:41 -0800 From: THOMAS CLARK Subject: Re: plugs and fruit I have heard those wedges in oranges and tangerines called "pigs," and imagine my surprise when I just looked in W10 and Random House II and DID NOT find that sense. Grapefuit wedges were never pigs, but "sections." Cheers, tlc On Thu, 15 Dec 1994, Timothy C. Frazer wrote: > My wife, who grew up in N. Florida, and stayed in the South (at UNC and > Mercer) until the age of 27, just now said she like to peel tangerines and > eat the "plugs." She isn't sure she remembers right, but thinks that is > what she alwyas called the sections of the tangerines. Anybody else > encountered this? Is it regional or idiolectal? > > Tim Frazer > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 19:05:00 EDT From: "David A. Johns" Subject: /biyl/ Here in southeast Georgia I get a lot of spelling mistakes of the type FEEL <--> FILL and SALE <--> SELL. But these pronunciations are mixed up with at least three other phenomena. First, breaking. As far as I can tell, /I/ and /E/ always break in word-final stressed syllables, and when they do, the first part of the diphthong is higher and tense: [ij[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] and [ej[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]]. But before consonants other than /l/, there is no merger, since /i/ and /e/ are lowered and strongly diphthongized: /i/ --> [ej] and /e/ --> [&j] (where [&] is [a_e]). So we get BIT [bij[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]t] but BEET [bejt]. Second, vocalization of /l/. Syllable-final /l/ is strongly vocalized as [w] or [u], often with no velarization that I can hear. All front vowels, tense or lax, get an intrusive [j] before this segment [*], and before this [j], /i/ and /e/ are not lowered, but fall together with /I/ and /E/. So BILL and BEALE are both /biju/. [*] The back vowels /u/ and /o/ are normally strongly fronted and diphthongized, but before an /l/ the remain back. So for FOOL and FOAL I hear [fuw] and [fow], with no fronting. This contributes to a bewildering number of very similar vowels -- I'm not at all sure how many distinctions there are in the series COOL, (MINIS)CULE, KILL, KEEL. It could be two, three, or four. And then we throw in the pronunciation of /O/ as /Ow/ or /aw/ and of /oj/ as /o[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/ ... One more note: /aw/ often breaks into /&ju/, but not in the same environments as the front vowel breaking -- I often hear HOW [h&ju] and DOWN [d&jun], but never OUT [&jut] (but PIT [pij[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]t]). It's possible that /aw/ -> /[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]w/ -> [[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ju] has merged with /&l/ -> /&ju/ in some environments (e.g., HAL and HOW both [h&ju]). Third, there is a really noticeable raising of /I/ and /E/ even in non-breaking, non-L syllables. I consistently hear BETTY as BEATTY, THANKSGIVING as THANKSGEEVING, etc. But again, in these contexts there is no merger, because of the lowering of the tense vowels. If you want vowels, come to South Georgia! David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 19:06:00 EDT From: "David A. Johns" Subject: He was --> He's A few weeks ago some folks were talking about a song in which (if I recall) HE'S [hiz] seemed to stand for HE WAS. I got this a couple of days ago from one of my students (white, about 19): On the other hand, when I think of living in the South, an episode of Hee-Haw fits my thoughts perfectly. I see two middle aged rednecks lying opposite one another in their front yard with a bottle of whiskey and their dog. In the laziest voice ever heard, one says to the other, "Jew see dat perdy girl just walked by?" And the other hillbilly responds, "Naw, bu-di shore du wish I'z layin where you are soz I could!" Could that "I'z" be anything but "I was"? David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 19:01:04 -0600 From: Katherine Catmull Subject: Holiday Giving--Don't Mail to Those Addresses I got a message like Michael Linn's too, but it turns out to be a misunderstanding that is causing the folks at those addresses some problems. I've attached this from alt.folklore.urban. Please spread this around to anyone who's sending out those messages. > From: pbfriedm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]us.oracle.com (Perry Friedman) > Newsgroups: alt.folklore.urban > Subject: Re: Holiday email folklore? > Date: 14 Dec 1994 18:39:06 -0800 [deletia] > Some more info on this, from Sun: > > Received: DECEMBER 14, 1994 18:26 Sent: DECEMBER 14, 1994 18:25 > From: Jamison Gray > To: phdcs-alumnus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.Stanford.EDU phdcs[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.Stanford.EDU mscs-alumnus[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.Stanford.EDU mscs[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CS.Stanford.EDU chughes[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]minniemouse.cemax.com > Subject: Correction (Re: Holiday Spirit) > Reply-to: UNX03.US.ORACLE.COM:[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Sunburn.Stanford.EDU:Jamison.Gray[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]eng.sun.com UNX03.US.ORACLE.COM:[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]Xenon.Stanford.EDU > X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII > > Sorry for the wide distribution, but there's incorrect > information floating around on the net. This is from > Sun's PR department: > > Sun is participating in a project conducted by the Internet > Multicasting Service to generate funds for the needy during the > Holidays. The project, called the Cyberspace Christmas Campaign, > consists of a home page -- north.pole.org -- on the World Wide Web, > accessible via a browser such as Mosaic. > > Every time the page is accessed, Sun will donate 10 cents to the Second > Harvest Food Bank. Sun's limit will be a total of $25,000. Other > companies are participating as well, donating funds to their specified > charities. > > ***Contrary to an e-mail circulating on the Internet, the donation is > not made every time an e-mail message is sent to this address.*** > > For more information, contact Luther Brown at the Internet Multicasting > Service, 202-628-2044 or George Paolini at Sun Microsystems, > 415-336-0806. > > The aforementioned Home Page (http://north.pole.org) includes the text: > > Please Don't Spam Santa > > There is a rumor going around that we're trying to get as > many messages as possible sent to santa[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]north.pole.org. > Not true...Santa has all the mail he can handle and asks > that you refrain from spamming him or there might be a few > last-minute transfers to the "naughty" list. > > Please correct this rumor wherever you've seen it. > > Happy holidays to all! > -- Jamie Gray kate kate[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]bga.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 21:19:11 -0500 From: Christopher Bishop '95 Subject: subscribe net_train ads ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 23:02:45 -0500 From: Thomas Sherlock Subject: /biyl/ On Thu, 15 Dec 1994 "David A. Johns" said: >Here in southeast Georgia I get a lot of spelling mistakes of the type FEEL ><--> FILL and SALE <--> SELL. But these pronunciations are mixed up with at >least three other phenomena. > >First, breaking. As far as I can tell, /I/ and /E/ always break in word-final >stressed syllables, and when they do, the first part of the diphthong is higher >and tense: [ij[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] and [ej[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]]. But before consonants other than /l/, there is no >merger, since /i/ and /e/ are lowered and strongly diphthongized: /i/ --> [ej] >and /e/ --> [&j] (where [&] is [a_e]). So we get BIT [bij[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]t] but BEET [bejt]. What sound does [[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] represent? Is it a schwa? Can this be found in some sort of FAQ? Also, I wonder if the southeast Georgian accent can in any way have been influenced by the Cajuns or Acadiens of Louisiana? teej teej[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pipeline.com Thomas J. Sherlock 51-44 70th Street Woodside, NY 11377 (212)596-1742 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 23:47:54 -0500 From: David Carlson Subject: Re: Roundabouts and Squares It's a rotary in Massachusetts. David Carlson ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Dec 1994 to 15 Dec 1994 ************************************************ There are 10 messages totalling 431 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Roundabouts and Squares 2. Word / meeting / eating of the year 3. /biyl/ 4. Word...of the year (2) 5. pigs, hoick (4) 6. Spamming Santa ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 23:14:28 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: Roundabouts and Squares Big red ribbons on the fronts of cars are popular in Columbia, Missouri, this Christmas season. First year for so many. Not just ribbons, but rather full bows. I was one of the first to post a query about traffic circles, and I've been pleasantly surprised that it generated so much interest. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 15 Dec 1994 23:38:46 CST From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: Word / meeting / eating of the year Allan mentioned chicken fajitas. A little "etymology" here. The word 'faja' means something like 'belt', and the REAL fajas (small ones = fajitas) are the strips of muscle under the bellies of animals that have substantial bellies and enough muscle in them to do somwthing with. For some time, butchers didn't bother with these parts of animals and either sold them at a cheap rate or gave them away to people in the community who didn't have much money but had enough patience to strip the fat off these muscle strips. The meat is pretty tough, so the fajitas were spiced up when cooked. When yuppies discovered these delectations, the prices soared, and now the financially challenged no longer have this good source of protein for their diets. Well, have you ever examined the underside of a chicken? No fajas, not even enough flesh for fajititas. So what you'll get rather than chicken fajas/fajitas is chicken breast cooked with a slathering of a variant of the spicy sauce used on real fajitas -- chicken with fajita seasoning. Everything has its season, and the time for the old-style fajita has elapsed. Down in the Valley (in Texas) one can still get the real item in all sorts of restaurants. Fajas are also known as flank steaks. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 04:17:00 EDT From: "David A. Johns" Subject: Re: /biyl/ # What sound does [[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] represent? Is it a schwa? Can this be found # in some sort of FAQ? Yes, it's schwa. I'm following a transcription scheme posted to the usenet group sci.lang by Evan Kirshenbaum. I'll append it below (actually, it's a pretty old version, and may have been updated some by now). # Also, I wonder if the southeast Georgian accent can in any way # have been influenced by the Cajuns or Acadiens of Louisiana? Not that I know of. There are very few French names around here. David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ====================================================================== Article 18559 of sci.lang: Path: uflorida!usf.edu!news.miami.edu!ncar!gatech!paladin.american.edu!howland.r eston.ans.net!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!hplextra!rig el!evan From: evan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hpl.hp.com (Evan Kirshenbaum) Newsgroups: sci.lang,alt.usag.english Subject: Summary of IPA/ASCII transcription for English Message-ID: <1992Dec23.195332.27936[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> Date: 23 Dec 92 19:53:32 GMT References: <1992Dec23.194326.27000[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hplabsz.hpl.hp.com> Sender: news[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hplabsz.hpl.hp.com (News Subsystem (Rigel)) Reply-To: kirshenbaum[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hpl.hp.com Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories Lines: 217 Xref: uflorida sci.lang:18559 Nntp-Posting-Host: hplerk.hpl.hp.com To aid English speakers in using the phonetic transcription, this document describes the mapping onto a standard American dictionary transcription system for sounds that commonly occur in the English language. When it differs from the symbol used, I've also included a description of the IPA symbol for the benefit of non-Americans. The table is taken from the 'Pronunciation Symbols' page of Merriam-Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary. In the examples, the letters which spell the sound are bracketed by '<...>'. Note that this only describes a small subset of the transcription system. There are far more sounds (used in other languages) and nuances of sound that can be captured. See the document describing the full standard for complete details. Phonemic (broad) transcriptions are bracketed by '/.../'. Phonetic (narrow) transcriptions are bracketed by '[...]'. Syllables that carry primary stress are preceded by "'". Syllables that carry secondary stress are preceded by ",". When giving the transcription of a single word, spaces are generally inserted between syllables (often omitted before syllables that have stress marks). When giving the transcription of a multi-word utterance, it is common to put spaces between words and omit them between syllables. /[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/: schwa (upside-down 'e'). Used in both unaccented ('bnan', 'cllide', 'but'), and accented ('hmdrm', 'abt') contexts. The IPA symbol is a schwa. [British speakers often have different vowels in these two contexts. The accented one is further back and is written /V/. Its IPA symbol is a 'wedge' or upside-down 'v'.] /l-/, /n-/, /m-/, /N-/: Superscript schwa preceding consonant. As in 'batt', 'mitt', 'eat'. Signifies that the consonant is pronounced as a syllable by itself. The IPA symbol is a vertical bar below the consonant. /R/: shwa followed by 'r'. 'opation', 'fth', 'g'. The IPA symbol is a schwa with a hook. /&/: short a. 'mt', 'mp', 'md', 'gg, 'snp', 'ptch'. The IPA symbol is an 'a-e' digraph. /eI/: long a ('a' with bar above). 'd', 'fde', 'dte', 'orta', 'drpe', 'cpe'. /A/: a with diaeresis (two dots) above. 'bther', 'ct', and, with most American speakers, 'fther', 'crt'. The IPA symbol is a script 'a'. /a/: a with dot above. 'fther' as pronounced by speakers who do not rhyme it with bother. /AU/: a followed by u with dot. 'n', 'ld', 't'. /b/: 'ay', 'ri'. /tS/: ch. The dictionary notes "(actually, this sound is \t\ + \sh\)" 'in', 'nare' (/'neI tSR/). In IPA transcription, this is sometimes spelled as 'c with hacek'. /d/: 'i', 'a
er'. /E/: short e. 'bt', 'bd', 'pck'. The IPA symbol is a lower-case epsilon. It is sometimes spelled with a small capital E. /i/: long e ('e' with bar above). 'bt', 'nosebld', 'venl', 's'. /f/: 'ity', 'cu' /g/: 'o', 'bi', 'ift'. /h/: 'at', 'aead'. /hw/: 'ale' as pronounced by those who do not have the same pronunciation for both 'whale' and 'wail'. /I/: short i. 'tp', 'bansh', 'actve'. The IPA symbol is a small capital I or a lower-case iota. /aI/: long i ('i' with bar above). 'ste', 'sde', 'b', 'trpe'. /dZ/: j. The dictionary notes "(actually, this sound is \d\ + \zh\)" 'ob', 'em', 'e', 'oin', 'uin', 'oo', 'a'. /x/: k with bar below. Geman 'i', 'bu'. /l/: 'iy', 'poo'. /m/: 'urur', 'di', 'nyph'. /n/: 'o', 'ow'. /~/: superscript 'n'. "indicates that a preceeding vowel or diphthong is pronounced with the nasal passages open as in French 'un bon vin blanc' /W~ bo~ va~ blA~/" The IPA diacritic is a tilde above the vowel. /N/: eng ('n' with a tail). 'si' /sIN/, 'sier' /'sIN R/, 'fier' /'fIN gR/, 'ik' /iNk/ The IPA symbol is an eng. /oU/: long o ('o' with bar above). 'bne', 'kn', 'b'. /O/: 'o' with dot above. 's', 'll', 'gn'. The IPA symbol is a small open 'o' or upside-down 'c'. /W/: o-e digraph French 'bf', german 'Hlle. The IPA symbol is an o-e digraph. /Oi/: 'o' with dot above followed by 'i'. 'cn', 'destr'. [The dictionary also lists 'sng', but I pronounce that as two separate syllables /'sO IN/.] /p/: '

eer', 'li

'. /r/: 'ed', 'ca', 'aity'. /s/: 'our', 'le'. /S/: sh. 'y', 'mion', 'maine', 'speal'. The IPA symbol is an esh: a tall, pulled 's' or long, barless 'f'. /t/: 'ie', 'aack'. /T/: th. 'in'. 'eer'. The IPA symbol as a lower-case theta. /D/: 'th' with bar below. 'en', 'eier', 'is'. The IPA symbol is an eth, sort of a script 'd' with the bar crossed. /u/: 'u' with diaeresis (two dots) above. 'rle', 'yth', 'union' /'jun j[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n/, 'few' /fju/. /U/: 'u' with dot above. 'pll', 'wd', 'bk', 'curable' /'kjUr [AT SYMBOL GOES HERE] b[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]l/. The IPA symbol is a small letter upsilon. A small capital U or closed lower-case omega is also used. /y/: u-e digraph. German 'fllen', 'hbsch', French 'r'. /v/: 'iid', 'gi'. /w/: 'e', 'aay'. /j/: 'ard', 'oung', 'cue' /kju/, 'union' /'jun y[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]n/; /;/: superscript 'y' following consonant; "indicates that during the articulation of the sound represented by the preceding character, the front of the tongue has substantially the position it has for the articulation of the first sound of 'yard', as in French 'digne' /din;/." The IPA diacritic is a superscript 'j' following or hook below the consonant. /ju/: 'th', 'nion', 'c', 'f', 'mte'. /jU/: 'crable', 'fry'. /z/: 'one', 'rai'. /Z/: zh. 'vion', 'azure' /'aZ R/. The IPA symbol is a yogh: like a flat-topped '3' lowered so that the top is the height of that of a 'z'. Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories | Voting in the House of 3500 Deer Creek Road, Building 26U | Representatives is done by means of a Palo Alto, CA 94304 | little plastic card with a magnetic | strip on the back--like a VISA card, kirshenbaum[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hpl.hp.com | but with no, that is, absolutely (415)857-7572 | *no*, spending limit. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 09:57:45 -0500 From: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: Word...of the year Well, Jesse's suggestion seems fine to me. Perhaps we can have Natalie's help from her laptop, since she'll be there (Natalie, are you listening during your peregrinations?). I will not guarantee that we will manage it, but stand by for a bulletin around mid-day PST on Wednesday the 28th. Thanks for the suggestion. Fasten your seat belts! - AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 09:31:57 -0600 From: Mary Howe Subject: pigs, hoick I'm stunned to discover that 'pigs' meaning orange or tangerine sections is not a family word. I've never heard it anywhere but at home. I grew up in New England (mostly R.I.). So while I'm thinking about home words, has anyone else ever heard or used the word 'hoick' meaning to hoist or hike, usually with clothing? (It's obvious where this one came from.) "Those pants are too loose in the waist, you'd better get a belt to hoick them up." Mary Howe Child Language Program Phone (913) 864-4789 University of Kansas email howe[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]kuhub.cc.ukans.edu 1082 Dole Center Lawrence, KS 66045 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 11:10:04 -0600 From: Michael M T Henderson Subject: Re: pigs, hoick In my native Scotland, citrus sections are called "liths", perhaps because they are rock-hard by the time Brits see them. We didn't say "hoick" (it's actually the pronunciation of Hawick, my family's home town), but we did say "houck", violating the Sassenach's constraint against /aw/ before [+grave] consonants. Also, a silly person was called a "gouk". _______________________________________ | \ | Michael M. T. Henderson . | | Linguistics Department \ | University of Kansas | | Lawrence, KS 66045-2140 | | Internet: mmth[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]falcon.cc.ukans.edu | |________________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 12:32:35 CST From: Joan Hall Subject: Re: pigs, hoick The Dictionary of American Regional English has an entry for hoick, 'to hoist or snatch up; to hook.' This is in the English Dialect Dictionary, meaning 'to hoist, lift up.' DARE's only examples are from Faulkner, so I'm glad to get your evidence from outside the South. Joan Hall, DARE ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 13:31:18 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" Subject: Re: Word...of the year I want to make another nomination for WOTY. But first, congrats to Dennis of Urbana for making the editorial page of the Chicago TRIB with his WOTY column. Not many of us get to moonlight as pundits (sigh). . . . My nomination :____________management. Yes, its a bit dated, but it deserves even belated attention. We live in an age full of hubris, in which we believe any problem will submit to "management" We give degrees in mangagement. We give lots of money to people who convince us they can do management. We have forest management (which ususally means the forest will disappear); we have environmental management (Duke has a degree program in that); we have wildlife management (see forest_____); we have land management. In the same issue of the Trib where Dennis' column appeared ran a story that said cowboys where disappearing, giving way to "land management." My university has a management department. I suspect that academe will eventually have academic managers instead of deans ir chairpersons; I pray I can wrack up enough credits toward retirement before that happens. Of course, in education we call it "administration." Thats what they call it in hospitals, too. Oh yeah, home management. How many of you are in universities with degrees or departments of Home Management? How many of you believe that homes are the least bit manageable? Just think of the impact on your life of folks who do management. S&L collapses, coporate downsizing, pink slips, new shopping malls. . . . Where I live our hospital "management" has decided to lay off RNs and just put a TV camera in each patient's, with an unskilled, minimum wage person scanning the monitors. Yes, management play a huge role in our postmodern lives, and deserves any attention it can get. Wow, long post. It's raining and I can't go outside. Sorry. Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 16 Dec 1994 13:32:52 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" Subject: Re: pigs, hoick Mary Howe mentioned "pigs" as orange (etc) sections. Did you mean pigs? I asked about "plugs." Tim ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Dec 1994 10:42:12 +0800 From: Frank Stevenson Subject: Re: Spamming Santa silliness, the stupidity of American "culture"....I recently learned that "Niko-laus" in Greek means "conquerer of the people" (before its various transmogrifications through "Saint Nick-laus" & St Klaus" etc etc)....This ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Dec 1994 to 16 Dec 1994 ************************************************ There are 7 messages totalling 154 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. More British automotive terms (2) 2. boot and bonnet 3. Word...of the year 4. Word management 5. /biyl/ (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 17 Dec 1994 09:06:34 -0600 From: Michael M T Henderson Subject: Re: More British automotive terms Apologies if (a) someone has already mentioned these or (b) everyone's tired of the subject; but this morning I thought of two delightful terms to share: Zebra crossing: a striped pedestrian crosswalk Sleeping policeman: a speed bump On another British subject, it turns out that just as they call all vacuum cleaners "Hoovers", even using the term as a verb, they call what we call "walkers" (frameworks used to support handicapped or frail people) "Zimmers". Zimmer is one of the major manufacturers of walkers, I find out. I've forgotten what they call Kleenex. _______________________________________ | \ | Michael M. T. Henderson . | | Linguistics Department \ | University of Kansas | | Lawrence, KS 66045-2140 | | Bitnet: mmth[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]falcon | | Internet: mmth[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]falcon.cc.ukans.edu | |________________________________________| ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Dec 1994 10:02:50 -0800 From: Judith Rascoe Subject: Re: More British automotive terms Thank you, Michael Henderson, for explaining that the US walker is a UK Zimmer. I came across the latter term recently and was deeply baffled. Which reminds me of another transatlantic difference. Years ago I was reduced to gestures and drawings in order to obtain an extension cord from a shop in London. The British term, I learned, was "running lead." Keep that in mind for your next sabbatical in Britain. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Dec 1994 10:18:57 -0800 From: Dan Alford Subject: Re: boot and bonnet does it strike anyone as significant that unlike hood and trunk, boot and bonnet describe garments on the bottom and top of a metaphorical human body stretched horizontally -- with wings, no less! Maybe we're travelling in angels! -- Moonhawk (%->) <"The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and> <-- McCartney/Lennon> ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Dec 1994 15:01:15 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: Re: Word...of the year > Well, Jesse's suggestion seems fine to me. Perhaps we can have Natalie's help > from her laptop, since she'll be there (Natalie, are you listening during > your peregrinations?). I will not guarantee that we will manage it, but stand Greetings from Rhode Island. Will either ADS or MLA have any telnet access arranged in advance? I haven't tried arranging access from San Diego yet. Was not even sure yet whether to take my laptop. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Dec 1994 16:15:21 -0500 From: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Word management Thanks for the nomination, Tim! I'll see that it gets to our new-words management team. Best wishes - Allan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Dec 1994 17:12:42 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" Subject: Re: /biyl/ This was a fascinating post and I want to say more, but first: David, what does typographic "&" represent? --Tim Frazer On Thu, 15 Dec 1994, David A. Johns wrote: > Here in southeast Georgia I get a lot of spelling mistakes of the type > FEEL <--> FILL and SALE <--> SELL. But these pronunciations are mixed > up with at least three other phenomena. > > First, breaking. As far as I can tell, /I/ and /E/ always break in > word-final stressed syllables, and when they do, the first part of the > diphthong is higher and tense: [ij[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]] and [ej[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]]. But before consonants > other than /l/, there is no merger, since /i/ and /e/ are lowered and > strongly diphthongized: /i/ --> [ej] and /e/ --> [&j] (where [&] is > [a_e]). So we get BIT [bij[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]t] but BEET [bejt]. > > Second, vocalization of /l/. Syllable-final /l/ is strongly vocalized > as [w] or [u], often with no velarization that I can hear. All front > vowels, tense or lax, get an intrusive [j] before this segment [*], > and before this [j], /i/ and /e/ are not lowered, but fall together > with /I/ and /E/. So BILL and BEALE are both /biju/. > > [*] The back vowels /u/ and /o/ are normally strongly fronted > and diphthongized, but before an /l/ the remain back. So for > FOOL and FOAL I hear [fuw] and [fow], with no fronting. This > contributes to a bewildering number of very similar vowels -- > I'm not at all sure how many distinctions there are in the > series COOL, (MINIS)CULE, KILL, KEEL. It could be two, three, > or four. And then we throw in the pronunciation of /O/ as > /Ow/ or /aw/ and of /oj/ as /o[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]/ ... > > One more note: /aw/ often breaks into /&ju/, but not in the > same environments as the front vowel breaking -- I often hear > HOW [h&ju] and DOWN [d&jun], but never OUT [&jut] (but PIT > [pij[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]t]). It's possible that /aw/ -> /[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]w/ -> [[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ju] has merged > with /&l/ -> /&ju/ in some environments (e.g., HAL and HOW > both [h&ju]). > > Third, there is a really noticeable raising of /I/ and /E/ even in > non-breaking, non-L syllables. I consistently hear BETTY as BEATTY, > THANKSGIVING as THANKSGEEVING, etc. But again, in these contexts > there is no merger, because of the lowering of the tense vowels. > > If you want vowels, come to South Georgia! > > David Johns > Waycross College > Waycross, GA > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 17 Dec 1994 20:22:00 EDT From: "David A. Johns" Subject: Re: /biyl/ # This was a fascinating post and I want to say more, but first: # David, what does typographic "&" represent? What is normally a digraph made up of A and E, as in cat [k&t]. David Johns Waycross College Waycross, GA ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 16 Dec 1994 to 17 Dec 1994 ************************************************ There is one message totalling 19 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. pigs, hoick ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 19 Dec 1994 14:07:54 -0800 From: THOMAS CLARK Subject: Re: pigs, hoick I mentioned "pigs," and Mary responded that she thought this was a word in her family. But definitely not "plugs." Cheers, tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu On Fri, 16 Dec 1994, Timothy C. Frazer wrote: > Mary Howe mentioned "pigs" as orange (etc) sections. Did you mean pigs? > I asked about "plugs." > > Tim > ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Dec 1994 to 19 Dec 1994 ************************************************ There are 4 messages totalling 154 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. 2. Preston's Arguments for meeting with LSA 3. Relationship of ADS to MLA/LSA 4. boot and bonnet ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 13:23:00 EST From: "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU> Subject: Friends of ADS: I would like to thank the special committee to determine future ADS meeting sites for their careful consideration of the matter and offer my vigorous opposition to their proposal. Let's me review the results of the advice from the membership. Apparently nearly one-half voted for continued meeting with MLA; one-half voted for association with LSA. At first glance that would seem to argue for the recommendation the committee will make in San Diego. Why 'disenfranchise' either of these large groups? I believe the most straightforward argument against that is simply to note that surely the best solution is not to disenfranchise both, but I want to raise issues other than those of simple preferences. In messages to the list, a number of members have expressed concerns of both convenience (spouse goes to MLA) and other professional obligations (recruitment duties at MLA). Only one or two have noted that there are a few programs of interest to the typical ADS member at MLA. Except for this last matter (I assume that nearly everyone would agree that there is much more of interest for the typical ADS member at LSA), we might safely assume that matters of convenience and professional obligations (spouse attending LSA, recruitment responsibilities there) could just as well be mentioned for LSA. Doubtless, such matters as these are what led to the draw in the vote taken by the membership at large. My original concern in recommending a change of meeting site had, in fact, little to do with concerns of our current membership's convenience and/or professional responsibilities and, in fact, only partly to do with the fact that the LSA meeting was an obviously more important gathering for most of us. I was principally concerned (and still am) with the growth and continuation of the Society. Where will our new members come from? Who will step into the leadership roles in the future? Frankly, when my new graduate students in sociolinguistics, dialectology, and language variation begin their work with me, they often want to know how they can join NWAV (they can't of course; it's not a organization), and, although I set them straight about their professional, organizational home (not to mention the best bargain in all of linguistics), I wonder how many others are being directed into ADS? I fear not as many as the future health of the Society requires. Briefly, if we are to attract active, contributing new members, I believe they will come principally from the ranks of young linguists who are interested in the great array of facts, puzzles, and theories concerning language variety. Current, innovative work in dialectology proper (DARE, LAGS, LAMSAS) shows that the most traditional concerns of the field are not in the least being left behind, but these projects can attract only a few of that new generation of scholars for whom we should be a home. I believe we must show them that we are a contributing, innovative branch of the study of language. Having our principal meeting with MLA instead of LSA sends the opposite message to the very group from which our new stalwarts should be drawn. Of course there is nothing to prevent us from spreading our fame even wider in the popular press, as we have done with our Word of the Year contest, nor should we hold back from carrying out thematic meetings and workshops and continuing to expand our presence at allied meetings, but our meeting with LSA would do nothing to curtail such promotional activities. If we are to carry out such an enthusiastic program, however, we must have the membership to back it, and some of that membership should come from a newer generation of scholars. Those scholars are not at the MLA. Those scholars will also have limited travel funds, busy teaching schedules, and need, I think, least of all, to have another meeting placed before them for the choosing. I think they will not choose it. Our regular publications are in order, and, with our new appointments, will be in good hands for the future. We have a distinguished group of senior scholars, some still engaged in the most impressive variation work of this century. There is even a pretty respectable number of us whose age I will not even characterize with an inoffensive euphemism. I believe, however, we are precisely the ones in the hot seat. We may choose to opt for meetings which are convenient for some reason or another, or, worse, we may opt for an independent meeting, which, with our senior status and the money and time which such status permits, might allow us to gather together in pleasant circumstances for a few years, leaving behind us warm and fuzzy memories of the good old ADS and how it faded. I prefer to return to the fold such active scholars as Bethany Dumas and the many others like her who cannot come to ADS because of their commitment to linguistics, a scholarly commitment shared by the great majority of our membership. I say let us come into the next century with all the vigorous initiatives and program innovations Allan and the committee have recommended. but I also urge you to have us come into that century as linguists, drawing from that group their brightest and most talented students, many of whom are increasingly committed to the study of language variation. We are their home; let's make it available to them. Let us thank the committee for their careful consideration in the face of the most important decision our Society has had to make, show them how they were wrong, and come out linguisticing (linguistiking?). Dennis R. Preston <22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu> ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 11:10:52 -0800 From: THOMAS CLARK Subject: Preston's Arguments for meeting with LSA His argument is persuasive and takes dead aim at the issue: shall we continue to meet with MLA for convenience and reasons that have nought to do with study of language variation, or shall we continue having a section with MLA and throw in with LSA our resources, efforts, and recruitments of young, active linguists who will form the backbone of language variation study in the dawning of the next century. I think the answer is clear: we must form a stronger relationship with LSA for intellectual and scholarly reasons. We must let go of the musty MLA, and our series of excuses to go to a meeting where we are tolerated at best, ignored at worst. Cheers, tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 17:15:02 -0500 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" Subject: Relationship of ADS to MLA/LSA I greatly appreciate the careful articulation of issues discussed in Dennis Preston's reent post about the future home of ADS. I also am persuaded by his arguments. I came into linguistics by way of dialect geography (thank you, Roger SHuy, Fred Cassidy, Gary Underwood, and Raven McDavid) and early sociolinguistics (thank you, Roger Shuy, Gary Underwood, and Bill Stewart) and through the Int'l Conferences in Canada with early professional membership in ADS. I would LOVE to be back in the fold. But several years ago it became clear that I could not both honor a primary commitment to linguistics and also remain active in MLA. So I opted for LSA with all that that has implied in terms of conference attendance. (And MLA really is too big and really does meet at a dreadful time of year.) Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 Dec 1994 17:37:56 -0500 From: "Peter L. Patrick" Subject: Re: boot and bonnet Re: Dan Alford's comment on boot and bonnet being garments but not 'trunk' and 'hood': what about swimming 'trunks'? and isn't a hppd a garment for the head too? I didn't follow about the wings and angels, but some cars still have fins... ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 19 Dec 1994 to 20 Dec 1994 ************************************************ There are 7 messages totalling 222 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Dennis Preston and ADS 2. your mail (2) 3. Where o where? (3) 4. Where o where? --- NWAV(E) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 10:16:45 +0100 From: "E.W. Schneider" Subject: Dennis Preston and ADS Being a European, I don`t attend either MLA or LSA (inconvenient times in both cases for transatlantic travel!), so strictly speaking I shouldn`t interfere in this ongoing discussion - it`s none of my business (though, interestingly enough, NWAV is strong enough a motivation to fly there for just a week`s trip). But I have been a member of ADS for fifteen years, and I think that entitles me to say I do share Dennis` concern about the state and future of the society (in fact, I`ve just voiced that concern in a review of Dennis` centennial book edition *American Dialec t Research*, coming out soon in EWW). Dennis` posting is great, carefully phrased, and he is absolutely right: do think of the young, give them a chance to join the field and society, and if they are in the field and not in the society (as seems to be the case with many of them right now) that`s something to think about. Merry Christmas to y`all! Edgar Edgar.Schneider[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]sprachlit.uni-regensburg.de University of Regensburg, 93040 Regensburg, Germany phone (int. line)-49-941-9433470 fax (int. line)-49-941-9434992 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 10:06:15 -0500 From: "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr." Subject: Re: your mail I am pleased to see some more debate about the meeting time for ADS. I have stayed pretty quiet in recent weeks, since I was part of the committee that generated the suggestion to have a separate meeting. Now, however, I think it is time for a comment. It is simply not "obvious" that LSA is a more powerful or more natural association for the ADS than is MLA. It *is* pretty obvious, to me at least, that the journal of the LSA has not published much on dialectology in recent decades (it used to do so, and Raven McDavid was on the editorial board as recently as the 1960s). It is also pretty obvious that half the members responding wanted MLA and not LSA, so arguments about stronger association with LSA are not manifest on that grounds. The claim that ADS could attract younger members through LSA also seems to me to be far less clear than is supposed. In the current LSA program there is a sociolinguistics session on Sunday AM but little else that I would go to the meeting for. One of Walt Wolfram's students is giving a paper in that session, but neither he nor anybody else of the 8 other speakers listed is currently a member of ADS. This to me argues that LSA participation is foreign to ADS, and that the people there even in a related field do not see ADS as interesting or important to their careers. If there were a few ADS members in the group, I would be all in favor of linking up with LSA to try to collect the rest---but I just don't believe that having our meeting with LSA would create a sea-change in the views of younger scholars. For what it is worth, the ADS-affiliated session is great this year, on Saturday afternoon, but I can find no mention of the program or time for it in the LSA materials and so I don't know how young LSAers would even know about it. When I think of the people who now attend ADS meetings, and people like Dumas and Schneider and are interested but can't or won't come around the holidays, I think that a meeting at a completely different time would retain the best part of current attendance and add some others. When the really important influences on younger scholars, their major professors, make them understand the value of ADS, then the young folks can come at a different time, too. In my view, we have little to lose and much to gain by getting out from under the shadow of the bigger organizations, neither of which is congenial for at least half our members. Regards, Bill ****************************************************************************** Bill Kretzschmar Phone: 706-542-2246 Dept. of English FAX: 706-542-2181 University of Georgia Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu Athens, GA 30602-6205 Bitnet: wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 13:31:22 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: your mail In defense of the LSA, let me just note in response to Bill's observation-- >For what it is worth, the ADS-affiliated session is great this year, on >Saturday afternoon, but I can find no mention of the program or time for >it in the LSA materials and so I don't know how young LSAers would even >know about it. --that the meeting handbook distributed to all registrants at the conference does indeed contain a full listing for the ADS session, complete with abstracts interspersed alphabetically with talks for the "regular" sessions. No discrimination intended. --Larry ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 13:35:54 -0500 From: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Where o where? If we are seeking the attention of the younger variationists, as Dennis P. and Bethany and others argue, and if we shouldn't meet entirely on our own, then wouldn't the best venue be NWAV? It was rejected as locus of our annual meeting early in the discussion, on the grounds that - well, it's not an organization, and meetings are scheduled just from year to year, so it would be hard to work with and we couldn't make long-range plans. But if that's where the new members are, we could certainly be nimble enough to tag along. Compared to LSA (let alone MLA), it's much smaller, so our presence would be more notable. We could make sure to have a table displaying our publications and membership forms; could have the table personned at appropriate times; could announce opportunities to confer with the editors of our publications. I suppose we should do that anyhow, even if we don't have our annual meeting there. As executive secretary, I'll make it a pledge to have some such official presence regularly at NWAV in the future. Do any of you remember 1978, when we *did* meet side by side with NWAV, in Washington DC? As I recall, it was perfectly pleasant and there was some intermingling; it was only through inertia that next year we drifted back to meeting with MLA/LSA (the two then meeting at the same time and often in the same place). We'll have coffee and Danish at 8 am Thursday, December 29 in the Monaco room on the second floor of Le Meridien San Diego, where this important decision will be the principal item on the agenda for the ADS Executive Council. The meeting is open and you are welcome to come. If you can't, your presence will be felt in the discussion we've had on ADS-L. - Allan Metcalf ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 14:36:07 CST From: Mike Picone Subject: Re: Where o where? It does seem to make some sense to meet in a venue where there is the most overlap of vital interests with another organization, if, that is, one is going to discard the idea of independent meetings because of the added expense, time commitment, etc. This is especially true if the main justification for joint meetings is to further recruitment of potentially interested individuals. I will give an example of where this seems to have worked. When LAVIS-II and SECOL met together, a number of people who were attracted to LAVIS found out about SECOL, too. Some of these people are my colleagues here at Alabama working on Southern dialect and discourse, others I know because, like me, they work on Louisiana French. All had been told about SECOL by me but had made no previous attempt to connect, despite my proddings. It was the link-up with LAVIS that was critical for them in the first instance, but a few of them, I have noticed, now continue to be active members in SECOL and continue participating and presenting at its meetings. Actually, to take the example a step further, it was at LAVIS-II that I first seriously considered membership in ADS after Allan Metcalf's excellent pep talk on that subject. (My membership inadvertantly lapsed this year due to a foul-up on renewal notification, but it will shortly be reinstated for the coming year.) Mike Picone University of Alabama ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 18:51:47 -0500 From: "Peter L. Patrick" Subject: Re: Where o where? I would like to throw in my 2 cents with the suggestion by Allan Metcalf that ADS reconsider meeting with NWAV. More than either MLA (which I have never attended, and have no plans to attend) or the LSA (which I have attended a half dozen times, but lately return to mostly because the Society for Pidgin & Creole Lx meets concurrently), NWAV-- without or without the "-E"-- is a fixture on my calendar and most of the ADSers that I have come to know personally. It has a configuration of interests that seems congenial to ADS: not only dialect research and social variation in general, but the aforementioned Ps and Cs & AAVE, Southern speech, language contact and change, phonetics of vowel shifts, style and register, and linguistic attitudes, as well as the ever-expanding area of discourse analysis. It isn't entirely the fault of linguists in other areas if we don't make LSA or 'Language' our home too-- if we want to belong we shouldn't keep writing those venues off-- but it does seem there's not enough mutual interest lately to make LSA an ideal choice (though I can't personally see much reason for going with MLA at all). But if we want a medium-sized conference with a congenial crowd, and one with a strong contingent of open-minded activist younger linguists and grad students, why not NWAVE? It also has the advantages of being early in the year (late October) before all travel money is spent, and of being relatively cheap (expensive hotel rooms are not the only choice for people who want to be part of the action). Philosophically, the mixture of strong empirical values for language as it is used by social beings, and the openness to theoretical approaches that has characterized recent NWAVEs might be invigorating without being too threatening. Can we reconsider? --peter patrick ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Dec 1994 22:17:57 -0500 From: "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr." Subject: Re: Where o where? --- NWAV(E) I have been a regular attender of NWAV since 1989, not so long as some but long enough. As for Peter Patrick, NWAV is a must on my schedule along with ADS. I just cannot recommend hooking our annual meeting to it, however, because of the way the conference is scheduled. An ADS presence at NWAV is wonderful, but I think we would end up frustrated if the annual meeting were locked up with something as organizationally chimeric as NWAV. And that's part of NWAV's cache, its informality (though at Stanford it was stunningly well-organized informality), so I wouldn't even suggest that that could or should be different. Regards, Bill ****************************************************************************** Bill Kretzschmar Phone: 706-542-2246 Dept. of English FAX: 706-542-2181 University of Georgia Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu Athens, GA 30602-6205 Bitnet: wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Dec 1994 to 21 Dec 1994 ************************************************ There are 6 messages totalling 294 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. your mail 2. wear o wear 3. 4. San Diego Residents in ADS? 5. LSA, NWAV, and all that 6. LSA, NWAV, MLA, etc. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 06:49:20 CST From: salikoko mufwene Subject: Re: your mail In Message Wed, 21 Dec 1994 10:06:15 -0500, "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr." writes: >The claim that ADS could attract younger members through LSA also seems >to me to be far less clear than is supposed. In the current LSA program >there is a sociolinguistics session on Sunday AM but little else that I >would go to the meeting for. One of Walt Wolfram's students is giving a >paper in that session, but neither he nor anybody else of the 8 other >speakers listed is currently a member of ADS. This to me argues that LSA >participation is foreign to ADS, and that the people there even in a >related field do not see ADS as interesting or important to their >careers. If there were a few ADS members in the group, I would be all in >favor of linking up with LSA to try to collect the rest---but I just >don't believe that having our meeting with LSA would create a sea-change >in the views of younger scholars. Just a minor correction, Bill. In the preliminary program, only the papers selected by the Program Committee of the LSA are published. Other concurrent meeting programs are included in the last program, which one gets upon registration. What you say also applies to the Society for Pidgin and Creole Linguistics, which has been meeting with the LSA for the past five years and has greatly benefited from the association. Some of out more theoretically oriented papers attract attendants from the larger LSA membership. To complement Dennis (Preston), I came to ADS from theoretical linguistics. Some of the present membership may have come from the same background, especially among who are not quantitatively oriented. I think diversity in the kind of work published in AMERICAN SPEECH and the papers presented at ADS meetings will determine in part whether or not there will be new members from theoretical linguistics. Overall, scholars explore and join associations that have something to offer them. Several theoreticians look for associations that may offer them interesting new materials to work with. So the consideration to add to the long list from Dennis is where, between MLA and LSA, is there the kind of professional diversity that is likely to enrich ADS in membership and professional diversity. I bet the LSA comes first. Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene University of Chicago Dept. of Linguistics 1010 East 59th Street Chicago, IL 60637 s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531; fax: 312-702-9861 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 09:00:44 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" Subject: Re: wear o wear (My subject heading is the way my students spell it.) I promise to shut up on this topic after this one caveat: I think the arguments forLSA or NWAV are both good. It DOES bother me that NWAV, except for one year in Nichigan, seems to meet mostly on either coast and rarely in the interior. OK, 2 caveats: a lot of ADSers are English department people. ARen't we likely to lose them at LSA or NWAV? Alright, that's it. Fini. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 11:24:00 EST From: "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU> Subject: Friends of ADS: I am happy to have generated more careful consideration of the annual meeting site for ADS. I might have said my piece and bided my time, but I believe some of the observations brought up contain inaccuracies which need to be cleared up, and, perhaps more importantly, gaps of information which need to be filled. Finally, I will indulge in a little more reflective observation First, it is not the case that Walt Wolfram and Natalie Schilling-Estes are not members of the ADS, as Bill Kretzschmar's first message claims. (My wife is not proof-reading this, so you will have to put up with my 'not ... not' constructions.) Natalie is, in fact, a Presidential Honorary Member (see p. 18, NADS 26.3, September 1994 and confirm WaltUs membership on p. 19 of the same issue). Much more important, however, than this minor correction is the fact that Walt (a stalwart of ADS) recruits his students for us and conveys to them the centrality of the Society to their interests in variation. That is, of course, exactly the path I hope more young scholars will take. Second, I am very sympathetic to our relationship to NWAV (for some time now, in spite of some local variation [actually performance errors], properly without the 'E'). Bill Kretzschmar and others have already mentioned one obstacle to this, and I agree. NWAV is not an organization; it has a loosely- structured planning committee, and its annual site is planned on the spot, year-by-year. Of course, we should have a strong presence there. It is, as Peter Patrick, Edgar Schneider, and others have pointed out, the one meeting which has the greatest number of presentations of interest to ADS members. More importantly, however, and perhaps Peter and others are not aware of this, NWAV has been, at least from time to time, relatively inhospitable to the idea of autonomous sessions by outside organizations. At some NWAV meetings, NWAV reviewers (not an ADS panel) have reviewed and selected all papers. If we offer an ADS sanctioned section, that is perhaps not an unreasonable demand for them to make, but it would certainly be inappropriate for our major, independent meeting. It certainly does not meet the requirements of any who would want us to come out from under the umbrella of any sister organizations. In contrast, LSA not only allows us to present our own program but also (as I am sure Allan Metcalf will confirm) supports our cooperation with them with a competent and friendly support staff. Bill Kretzschmar's claim that we were not mentioned in the preliminary program (in the last LSA Bulletin) can, I am sure, be corrected by a simple request, and, as Larry Horn points out, we are fully featured in the official program handbook. On this matter, I think we can have the best of both worlds. We can enjoy the regular scheduling and excellent support facilities of LSA for our most important annual meeting, and we can continue to be a strong presence at NWAV, lobbying for our control of our session and attracting the younger scholars who share the greatest number of interests with members of our Society. Finally, I must take great issue with Bill Kretzschmar's claim that it is not painfully obvious that the program (and publications) of LSA are of more interest to us than those of MLA. I will bite my finger and avoid any caricature of what sorts of things are presented at MLA (and appear in PMLA). Those who have the program may have a look. I do not, however, find such a gap at LSA. A cursory examination of this year's program reveals a great deal that I am sorry to have to miss. There is a great deal on aspect, some papers featuring reconstruction concerns from a geographical point of view. There is a full-blown section on historical linguistics treating such important topics as word-frequency effects and semantic reconstruction. A entire symposium deals with the role of language and sexual harassment. Walt Wolfram and Natalie Schilling-Estes' presentation is, in fact, a part of the 'Endangered Languages' session, extended to include 'endangered dialects.' The discourse and pragmatics sessions feature presentations on ellipsis in conversational English, focus, animacy restrictions on English 'have' complements, and the prosodic organization of discourse. The phonetics session features a presentation on vowel reduction in American English. A special session on negation and polarity will offer a talk on 'any' in English, a perennial problem in variation studies. Semantics presentations deal with a number of semanto- syntactic features which specifically vary in American English varieties (e.g., 'respectively' and 'before'), and the sociolinguistics section is filled with items of specific interest to ADS members (e.g., 'steady' in AAVE, variation and dialect contact, variation and optimality theory, and register shifting in Cajun English). That a larger number of those who are presenting papers at this year's LSA are not members of ADS is, I think, proof of my point rather than the opposite. Why are we not attracting the younger scholars (by far the great majority of presenters, by the way) who have obvious interests in variation, some, even specific interests in variation in the English of the United States? I am also unhappy to find Language caricatured as a journal which contains nothing of interest to ADS members. (Why do I bother to read it?) Reviews and articles which specifically deal with variation topics (e.g., Jack Chambers 'dialect acquisition' article in December 1992) are frequent, although I think this is almost beside the point. We have American Speech, PADS, JEngL, LinS, LVC, and other outlets where one would expect a much higher concentration of articles on variation. Other sub-fields of linguistics are treated no better in Lg. More to the point, however, are the 'other' (non-variationist) articles in Lg (and the nonvariationist sessions at LSA). They are, frankly, about stuff I am interested in. The last issue I have in hand (September 1994) has a lead article on 'phonetic knowledge,' an extremely important consideration for those who want to consider the ability of speakers to acquire other varieties (or pieces of other varieties) as part of the motivation for dialect change. Even beyond the immediate relevance of this article (and many more like it), I would want to claim that the great majority of articles in Lg are of importance to variationists. I find in it claims about universals, for example, which make me wonder about the degree of 'unitariness' of the language competence of speakers of the same language but different dialects, a theme chosen for one of the regional linguistic meetings in Canada this year and broached in several pieces in Trudgill and Chambers 'Dialects of English' (Longman 1991). I will not bother you with too much more of this. For me, dialectology (and, therefore, our Society) is intimately bound up not only with historical linguistics, language and society, and quantitative sociolinguistics but also with general, theoretical linguistics. Of course, people in literature, cultural geography, education and many other fields make use of (or should make use of) our descriptive and interpretive findings (as we may make use of the results of their work), but I belong to the ADS because I belong to the dialectologist/sociolinguist branch of linguistics. I welcome ADS members from other fields, but, to my mind, they are tails, and I am the dog. (I am sorry I wrote that, but I can handle the responses.) I might add that an equally serious part of my evangelical work is to make variation studies of increasing important to general linguistics. When I arrived at my present position, some of the smart-alec linguistic theory graduate students referred to sociolinguistics in general as 'Gee-whiz' linguistics. ('Is that what they say over there? Gee whiz.') The label was not polite; they assumed that we collected it, mounted it, and admired it (the reference is to entomology, by the way). I am happy to report that I have not given such swell grades to a few of them who have shown themselves to be incapable of following through a full program of hypothesis building and testing (with appropriate scientific discipline) of questions of language variation (and the relevance of those question to central questions of the general discipline). In conclusion, I believe it takes good linguists to do good dialectology, and I mean to include the collection of regionally distributed stuff as much as I mean the interpretation of such stuff or the uses of it in the construction and destruction of the hypotheses bound to more general questions of language structure and change. I have a great deal of respect for and make use of the descriptive record of our Society, and I hope to encourage that respect in younger linguists. I believe we may move in that direction without giving up one whit of our relationship with such important allied areas as folklore and popular culture, education, literature, and others. I ask you again, in light of our status as linguists and in light of the importance of our work to the general work of the field, to ask those who will make this decision to make the right one for the Society. Those younger colleagues whom we will recruit cannot simply choose to go to another conference, and I fear that that enthusiasm for the field which inspired many of us may be lost in the next generation. If we continue to have our most important annual meeting with a literary society (in spite of its name), we run exactly that risk. Dennis R. Preston <22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 10:26:45 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: San Diego Residents in ADS? Do we have any ADS members who live in San Diego and have e-mail accounts we could telnet through? --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) (checking e-mail very hurriedly and sporadically these days -- I left my "normal" computer situation Dec. 15 and won't return to it until Jan. 2 or 3) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 18:27:08 -0500 From: "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr." Subject: LSA, NWAV, and all that Dennis, I was referring to Kirk Hazen on the Sociolinguistics program at LSA, not to Walt or Natalie, who of course are esteemed members of ADS. While I understand much of what Dennis has to say, I just do not agree with it. I stand with, e.g., the lexicographers in my appreciation of some of what happens at MLA. I think of *Language* in much the same way that Dennis thinks of *PMLA*. Why can't we accept that fact that there is a deep division in ADS membership and meet with neither LSA or MLA? Regards, Bill ****************************************************************************** Bill Kretzschmar Phone: 706-542-2246 Dept. of English FAX: 706-542-2181 University of Georgia Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu Athens, GA 30602-6205 Bitnet: wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 22 Dec 1994 22:25:20 -0600 From: "Robert . Bayley" Subject: LSA, NWAV, MLA, etc. I want to add one more voice in support of Dennis Preston's arguments for holding ADS meetings with LSA. Like Peter Patrick, I have never attended MLA and have no attention of doing so. I do attend NWAV regularly and find it the most important conference of the year. I agree that the generally loose structure of NWAV, however, does not seem to have a place for ADS to run its own program. Many of the ADS members participating in NWAV are already on the regular program in any case. That leaves LSA, which offers far more on the program than MLA is ever likely to have, especially since the Society for Pidgin and Creole Linguistics meets regularly with LSA. As to Bill's suggestion that ADS hold its own meeting separate from either MLA or LSA -- one more meeting is too much to handle in these days of very reduced travel budgets. -Bob Bayley Division of Bicultural-Bilingual Studies University of Texas at San Antonio San Antonio, TX 78249-0653 email: rbayley[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]lonestar.utsa.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 21 Dec 1994 to 22 Dec 1994 ************************************************ There are 4 messages totalling 239 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. 2. your mail 3. Where and When and Who (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 23 Dec 1994 11:27:00 EST From: "Dennis.Preston" <22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU> Subject: Friends of ADS: My friend and colleague Bill Kretzschmar has, I believe, helped close this conversation before we toddle off to San Diego. Indeed, we (at least he and I) appear to be 'deeply divided' on the question of the ADS as a linguistic society or something else. I believe, however, that I have better characterized why I believe what I believe. I have cited articles from Lg and presentations at LSA which are of obvious importance and interest to ADS members; Bill has countered by offering the observation that he has the same opinion of Lg that I have of PMLA, but he has not detailed why the linguistic (indeed even variationist and dialectological) interests of LSA are of little importance to ADS, its aims, and its members. In short, he does not explain why the presentations and articles I list are not important, nor does he provide any detail about the importance of (P)MLA to our enterprise. He does note that he 'stands with lexicographers' in this preference, but I do not know who these lexicographer are or what information they are getting from the MLA. They would learn a great deal more about their enterprise from LSA (for whom I once taught an entire course on lexicography in America at an LSA Summer Institute). In short, although I am a great admirer of Bill's important and innovative work in American linguistic geography, I cannot find convincing arguments in his responses which would persuade me to believe that I would benefit more from the study of literature in my work as a dialectologist and sociolinguist than I do from the study of linguistics. I will continue to read Lg (especially the most recent issue, which I did not have in hand when I wrote my last entry in this discussion, since I note its lead article is Nancy Dorian's 'Varieties of variation'). The 'deep divisions' between us, then, appear to be old ties, emotional links, departmental loyalties, and even, as I suggested before, matters of convenience. Those are not paltry things; some engage the emotions of many of our members, and they must not be treated lightly. I have not meant to detract from the applied, philological, literary, and other interests of our membership. Those are all important concerns to language variation study, and I hope the contributions of scholars in those areas continue, but I would be unhappy to see those issues predominate in a Society which I believe to be committed to the study of language in a scientific mode (i.e., linguistics). As Tim Frazer rightly points out, we run the risk of losing some of our English department faithful if we change our meeting to coincide with that of LSA. Do we not run the same risk if we change to another time? Will English department oriented ADS members flock to another meeting which does not offer the extensive, bonus program of LSA? Why not do our English department members a favor by allowing them to say locally that there is another reason not to go to MLA. Their professional obligations lie elsewhere, and their departments should recognize that. (I have been an English Department linguist for most of my professional life, and I have always pressed that distinction on chairs, colleagues, and administrators. We might aid younger [and perhaps less aggressive young people than I was] by withdrawing one more excuse from those who control local funding to send people off to a literary conference.) On the other hand, Bill is not the only participant in this discussion who doubts that young LSA-oriented variationists will be attracted to ADS. I agree that that is not a given, but I have not heard any argument which suggests that scads of young MLA members are panting for dialectology. In fact, that has been the model for some time, and it has not proved a good recruitment ground. I cannot guarantee you that LSA will swell our numbers, but I can observe that MLA has not. I continue to encourage you, therefore, to press your representatives (and press yourself, if you attend) to link our Society most securely to linguistics. I have paid careful attention to the arguments to the contrary, and, although I have heard misgivings about the emotional impact on some of our stalwart members (misgivings which, I assure you, I do not take lightly), I have heard no good arguments against the linguistic nature of our enterprise nor convincing characterizations of the fertile recruitment grounds at MLA. Perhaps most importantly, I am troubled by the prospect of a separate meeting as a compromise among those who are 'deeply divided.' If we are divided, let us resolve it for the good of the Society, not to assuage the feelings of one group or the other. I sincerely believe that nothing could provide a worse jumping-off place for our next 100 years than the establishment of a meeting time which would attract neither part of our traditional membership and, almost by definition, do nothing to encourage the involved participation in Society policy and leadership among the next generation of scholars. We will need new leaders as well as new members, and they will come from those who can attend an accessible main meeting. Dennis R. Preston <22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu> ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Dec 1994 10:46:24 -0600 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" Subject: Re: your mail Dennis, thats a good summation. Blessings on all of you who are travelling. I'm staying here in the so-far-not-so-cold midwest, where I biked 10 miles yesterday and wanted to do more. I hope someone is saving all of these comments. Thy say a lot about various visions of the future of ADS, and would be very interesting for someone writing a history of the society in years hence. Feliz navidad! Tim On Fri, 23 Dec 1994, Dennis.Preston wrote: > Friends of ADS: > > My friend and colleague Bill Kretzschmar has, I believe, helped close this > conversation before we toddle off to San Diego. > > Indeed, we (at least he and I) appear to be 'deeply divided' on the question > of the ADS as a linguistic society or something else. I believe, however, > that I have better characterized why I believe what I believe. I have cited > articles from Lg and presentations at LSA which are of obvious importance > and interest to ADS members; Bill has countered by offering the observation > that he has the same opinion of Lg that I have of PMLA, but he has not > detailed why the linguistic (indeed even variationist and dialectological) > interests of LSA are of little importance to ADS, its aims, and its members. > In short, he does not explain why the presentations and articles I list are not > important, nor does he provide any detail about the importance of (P)MLA > to our enterprise. He does note that he 'stands with lexicographers' in this > preference, but I do not know who these lexicographer are or what > information they are getting from the MLA. They would learn a great deal > more about their enterprise from LSA (for whom I once taught an entire > course on lexicography in America at an LSA Summer Institute). > > In short, although I am a great admirer of Bill's important and innovative > work in American linguistic geography, I cannot find convincing arguments > in his responses which would persuade me to believe that I would benefit > more from the study of literature in my work as a dialectologist and > sociolinguist than I do from the study of linguistics. I will continue to read > Lg (especially the most recent issue, which I did not have in hand when I > wrote my last entry in this discussion, since I note its lead article is Nancy > Dorian's 'Varieties of variation'). > > The 'deep divisions' between us, then, appear to be old ties, emotional > links, departmental loyalties, and even, as I suggested before, matters of > convenience. Those are not paltry things; some engage the emotions of > many of our members, and they must not be treated lightly. I have not > meant to detract from the applied, philological, literary, and other interests > of our membership. Those are all important concerns to language variation > study, and I hope the contributions of scholars in those areas continue, but I > would be unhappy to see those issues predominate in a Society which I > believe to be committed to the study of language in a scientific mode (i.e., > linguistics). > > As Tim Frazer rightly points out, we run the risk of losing some of our > English department faithful if we change our meeting to coincide with that > of LSA. Do we not run the same risk if we change to another time? Will > English department oriented ADS members flock to another meeting which > does not offer the extensive, bonus program of LSA? Why not do our > English department members a favor by allowing them to say locally that > there is another reason not to go to MLA. Their professional obligations lie > elsewhere, and their departments should recognize that. (I have been an > English Department linguist for most of my professional life, and I have > always pressed that distinction on chairs, colleagues, and administrators. > We might aid younger [and perhaps less aggressive young people than I > was] by withdrawing one more excuse from those who control local > funding to send people off to a literary conference.) > > On the other hand, Bill is not the only participant in this discussion who > doubts that young LSA-oriented variationists will be attracted to ADS. I > agree that that is not a given, but I have not heard any argument which > suggests that scads of young MLA members are panting for dialectology. In > fact, that has been the model for some time, and it has not proved a good > recruitment ground. I cannot guarantee you that LSA will swell our > numbers, but I can observe that MLA has not. > > I continue to encourage you, therefore, to press your representatives (and > press yourself, if you attend) to link our Society most securely to > linguistics. I have paid careful attention to the arguments to the contrary, > and, although I have heard misgivings about the emotional impact on some > of our stalwart members (misgivings which, I assure you, I do not take > lightly), I have heard no good arguments against the linguistic nature of our > enterprise nor convincing characterizations of the fertile recruitment grounds > at MLA. > > Perhaps most importantly, I am troubled by the prospect of a separate > meeting as a compromise among those who are 'deeply divided.' If we are > divided, let us resolve it for the good of the Society, not to assuage the > feelings of one group or the other. I sincerely believe that nothing could > provide a worse jumping-off place for our next 100 years than the > establishment of a meeting time which would attract neither part of our > traditional membership and, almost by definition, do nothing to encourage > the involved participation in Society policy and leadership among the next > generation of scholars. We will need new leaders as well as new members, > and they will come from those who can attend an accessible main meeting. > > Dennis R. Preston > <22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu> > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Dec 1994 17:06:29 -0800 From: THOMAS CLARK Subject: Where and When and Who Having paid close attention to the various points concerning MLA/LSA/NVAV/Other Venue, I have already cast my vote with those in favor of meeting with LSA. I would like to point out to Bill that I am "An English Department Oriented Member" who teaches language variation and grad courses demonstrating the service of linguistics to literature ("Linguistics and Poetics" and "Linguistics and Prosody"). Also, speaking as a lexicographer, I can assure you that I do lexicographical things and lexicology with the Dictionary Society of North America (DSNA), which meets every two years in early summer or late summer (next meeting at Case Western Reserve University, July 20-22, 1995). So I fit two of those categories, Bill, but still insist the future of the ADS lies within striking distance of LSA. Allan Metcalf may want to call for a mail ballot of the membership, presenting all the arguments for the various times and places. I nominate Dennis P to write the position for the LSA stance. I also think that the mail ballot should have a stamped envelope for return, to ensure a higher return rate of ballots, and that the ballot should be a separate mailing from the newsletter. Cheers, tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 23 Dec 1994 22:17:06 -0500 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" Subject: Re: Where and When and Who I continue to support Dennis Preston's position that ADS meet with LSA. I also support Tom Clark's suggestions about balloting. Have a good meeting, December ADSers. And Happy Holidays to all. Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Dec 1994 to 23 Dec 1994 ************************************************ There are 2 messages totalling 85 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Where and When and Who 2. Meetings ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 24 Dec 1994 10:56:30 EST From: "Betty S. Phillips" Subject: Re: Where and When and Who To add my two cents worth to the discussion (since I will not be at MLA), I agree with Bethany-- in support of meeting with LSA and in support of Tom Clark's suggestions about balloting. Betty S. Phillips English Dept. Indiana State University Terre Haute, IN ejphill[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]root.indstate.edu Send reply to: American Dialect Society From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" Subject: Re: Where and When and Who To: Multiple recipients of list ADS-L I continue to support Dennis Preston's position that ADS meet with LSA. I also support Tom Clark's suggestions about balloting. Have a good meeting, December ADSers. And Happy Holidays to all. Bethany Dumas = dumasb[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]utkvx.utk.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 24 Dec 1994 11:03:30 -0500 From: "William A. Kretzschmar, Jr." Subject: Meetings If I had been interested in preparing a long reply to Dennis, I might have done a better job of responding point by point to his long messages. But I have not thought it appropriate to write in such a detailed way via email---perhaps I am old fashioned when I don't usually write more than a screenful or two. I would, however, like to make it clear that I have not argued that MLA is a better home for the ADS meeting than LSA. I have also not argued that "dialectology" should not be "linguistic". I have objected to the obviousness of arguments in favor of meeting with the LSA, but there are certainly arguments for doing so, and I appreciate their validity for some ADS members. Some members, not all. The lexicographers to whom I referred are people like Victoria Neufeldt, Mike Agnes, David Barnhart, and David Jost, who have come regularly to MLA and ADS; I'm sure that other lexicographers, like Tom Clark, may prefer to go elsewhere. Finally, "emotional" reasons are as good as any other if they cause members to attend or keep them from attending the annual meeting; they cannot just be dismissed, just as my admitted feeling of alienation from LSA (though I do read the odd variationist article or review in *Language*) is very real even if not reasonable by some other people's standards. I do not much like being set up as a straw man, though I suppose I asked for it. Perhaps Tom Clark is right that we should have another mail ballot. This time it could have three clear options spelled out: meet with LSA, meet with MLA, meet separately in the spring. The whole membership, however, has not been inclined to attend either MLA or LSA sessions for ADS. Of course it is not reasonable to consider people who have been to ADS at MLA as representative of those members who are likely to attend meetings (because LSA-inclined members may not come there). Still, at various meetings with ADS affiliation, including for example the Methods conference, there seems to be a core of people who most often appear. I believe that those people would still come to a separate meeting, and that others in ADS would have a better opportunity to attend a separate meeting than they would a meeting attached either to LSA or MLA. If ADS needs to lean on some other organization (whichever that one might be), that is too bad, and I don't believe that ADS needs to do that. That's about my limit of two screens, maybe more like three! Merry Christmas to all . . . . Regards, Bill ****************************************************************************** Bill Kretzschmar Phone: 706-542-2246 Dept. of English FAX: 706-542-2181 University of Georgia Internet: billk[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]hyde.park.uga.edu Athens, GA 30602-6205 Bitnet: wakjengl[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Dec 1994 to 24 Dec 1994 ************************************************ There are 10 messages totalling 263 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Word of the Year: VOTE NOW! (4) 2. Word of the Year (2) 3. New Words of the Year 4. DEADLINE IS HERE 5. Cyber-Morph (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 13:28:56 EST From: Natalie Maynor <72377.1113[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Word of the Year: VOTE NOW! Sorry for such short notice. If e-mail voting becomes a tradition, we'll be better organized for it in the future. If you want to vote for '94 Word of the Year, send your ballot to ADS-L by 4 p.m. today -- Pacific time. -- Natalie **************************************************** AMERICAN DIALECT SOCIETY Dec. 29, 1994 c/o Allan Metcalf, Le Meridien San Diego (619) 435-3000, room 343 NOMINATIONS FOR: NEW WORD (OR PHRASE) OF THE YEAR 1994 Nominees were chosen at the open meeting of the New Words Committee Dec. 28. They are to be voted on at 5 p.m. Thursday, Dec. 29, in St. Tropez C, upstairs at Le Meridien, 2000 Second St., Coronado. Procedure: For each category there will be 1) opportunity for additional nominations and brief discussion of candidates; 2) vote by show of hands, all present entitled to vote. 1. Most beautiful: granny mum 'a woman past the usual child-bearing age who is pregnant through artificial implantation of a fertilized donor egg' sylvanshine 'night-time iridescence of forest trees' 2. Most imaginative: morph (v.) 'to change form, to change, to transport' guillermo 'e-mail message in a foreign language' [=memo in Spanish] spamming 'random and indiscriminate posting of articles and advertising on Internet bulletin boards' [from image of Spam dropped into an electric fan] 3. Most trendy: vegetal leather 'synthetic leather made of latex on cotton' casual day / dress down day 'a work day, usually Friday, when employees are allowed to wear casual attire' 4. Most euphemistic: fetal reduction 'aborting one or more fetuses that occur as a result of infertility treatment, to increase the chances for survival of the remaining ones' challenged (as in abdominally challenged, classically challenged) 5. Most promising: Infobahn 'information superhighway, Internet' Pog (a children's game) polydoxy 'holding a variety of beliefs' 6. Most useful: cyber 'pertaining to computers, electronic communication, or the electronic superhighway' netiquette 'appropriate behavior on the Internet or other computer network' Then will follow open nominations, discussion, and vote for New Word of the Year 1994, the word or phrase that best characterizes the new concerns and attitudes of the past year. Nominations may be made whether or not the words were winners in individual categories. Thanks to: David Barnhart, editor of the Barnhart Dictionary Companion, the only periodical devoted to new words; John and Adele Algeo, conductors of "Among the New Words" in American Speech; and the 18 American Dialect Society members and friends whose discussion Thursday morning determined this year's categories and nominees. Nominations for 1995 should be sent to Barnhart at PO Box 247, Cold Spring NY 10516 or to the Algeos at PO Box 270, Wheaton IL 60189-0270. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 14:00:03 -0500 From: Leo Horishny Subject: Word of the Year My votes/nominations for the categories presented: 1) Ick to both nominations. 2)Spamming 3)Politically Incorrect/correct 4)challenged 5)Ick again to all 6)Netiquette. Word of the Year over all: Netiquette. Good Luck. leo_horishny[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]pol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 14:10:56 EST From: Vicki Rosenzweig Subject: Re: Word of the Year: VOTE NOW! My votes are 1 (most beautiful) : sylvanshine. (I've never seen this before, but I love it) 2 (most imaginative): spamming (with a note that hackers credit this one, not to spam in a fan, but to an old Monty Python skit--and it's in _The New Hacker's Dictionary_, so it may not really be a new word). 3 (Most trendy) casual day 4 (most euphemistic): challenged 5 (most promising) infobahn 6 (most useful) this is a tough one, but I'd go with netiquette I should note here that I'm not a member of the ADS, so you may not want to count my vote. Vicki Rosenzweig vr%acmcr.uucp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]murphy.com New York, NY ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 16:35:52 -0500 From: Jesse Sheidlower Subject: Re: Word of the Year: VOTE NOW! 1. Most beautiful: I like sylvanshine, but refuse to believe it has enough currency to be a viable candidate. I abstain. 2. Most imaginative: spamming 'random and indiscriminate posting of articles and advertising on Internet bulletin boards' 3. Most trendy: casual day / dress down day 4. Most euphemistic: challenged 5. Most promising: Infobahn 6. Most useful: cyber Best, Jesse T Sheidlower Random House Reference ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 13:40:25 -0800 From: Dan Alford Subject: Word of the Year My votes are for 1) sylvanshine 2) spamming 3) vegetal leather 4) fetal reduction 5) polydoxy 6) neither -- I have a write-in candidate: Langscape -- the language/culture portion of one's total worldview This word was coined during this past year by an American Indian, Sakej Youngblood Henderson, to improve my clumsy phrasing of 'wordworld'. (PS -- I would have placed 'morph' in category 5, most promising, rather than 2.) -- Moonhawk (%->) <"The fool on the hill sees the sun going down and> <-- McCartney/Lennon> ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 17:02:35 -0500 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" Subject: Re: Word of the Year: VOTE NOW! My vote: 1. Abstain (little currency for either) 2. spamming ('morph' is accurate, but doesn't really seem 'imaginative') 3. dress down day (I've never heard 'casual day') 4. challenged 5. Infobahn 6. cyber Word of the Year? My vote is for 'spamming' Bethany Dumas ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 18:44:06 -0500 From: Mary Beth Protomastro Subject: New Words of the Year 1. I'm not familiar with either term. No vote. 2. Most imaginative: spamming. 3. Trendiest: casual day/dress-down day. 4. Most euphemistic: challenged. 5. Most promising: infobahn. 6. Most useful: cyber. Mary Beth Protomastro "Copy Editor" Newsletter ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 17:59:49 -0600 From: Natalie Maynor Subject: DEADLINE IS HERE Thanks for the votes. We're declaring this the end -- as in the polls are now closed. Will report later. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 21:24:05 EST From: Natalie Maynor <72377.1113[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COMPUSERVE.COM> Subject: Cyber-Morph For the first time ever, there will be two Words of the Year: cyber and morph(the verb). The vote was tied. Other winners: (1) Most beautiful: sylvanshine. (2) Most imaginative: guillermo. (3) Most trendy: dress-down day. (4) Most euphemistic: challenged. (5) Most promising: Infobahn. (6) Most useful: Gingrich (verb). (The ADS-L write-in "langscape" got a good many votes.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 29 Dec 1994 22:24:42 EST From: Larry Horn Subject: Re: Cyber-Morph Oops, I guess I was too late. But I applaud the results, especially X-challenged, which certainly has become productive if not metastatic, and dress-down day, which my kids have been celebrating for at least 8 years under that name. (I'd wager that the use they're familiar with--when the uniforms are abjured at private/parochial school--was the origin of the current use. Any first citing/sighting out there?) Larry ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Dec 1994 to 29 Dec 1994 ************************************************ .