There is one message totalling 12 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Forrest Gump ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 1 Aug 1994 08:29:49 -0400 From: "Becky Howard, Department of Interdisciplinary Writing, Colgate University" BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU Subject: Re: Forrest Gump Tim, correct: Sam Jaffe. The guy who played the older M.D. on *Ben Casey*, starring Vince Edwards. Becky ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 31 Jul 1994 to 1 Aug 1994 *********************************************** There are 4 messages totalling 183 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Queries: GAY; SEE WITH ONES HEELS 2. Queries: GAY 3. Forrest Gump (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 08:34:01 -0400 From: Ronald Butters amspeech[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ACPUB.DUKE.EDU Subject: Queries: GAY; SEE WITH ONES HEELS 1. A colleague finds this in FS Fitzgerald`s TENDER IS THE NIGHT: "Dick saw with his heels" meaning 'Dick saw from the corners of his eye'. My colleague is trying to determine if Fitzgerald coined this expression. Does anyone know of other appearances? 2. In his short story "I'm a Fool," Sherwood Anderson uses the term GAY to mean 'rambunctious', 'belligerent', or just plain 'crazy'. My colleague tells me that he thinks that Stephen Crane used it, but he can't find it now; apparently it is not in MAGGIE. I cannot find it in any slang dictionary that I have at my immediate disposal. Does anyone know this usage--from literature, linguistics, lexicographical research, or life? ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 09:56:13 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: Queries: GAY 2. In his short story "I'm a Fool," Sherwood Anderson uses the term GAY to mean 'rambunctious', 'belligerent', or just plain 'crazy'. My colleague tells me that he thinks that Stephen Crane used it, but he can't find it now; apparently it is not in MAGGIE. I cannot find it in any slang dictionary that I have at my immediate disposal. Does anyone know this usage--from literature, linguistics, lexicographical research, or life? In the _Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang,_ we have definition 3 of GAY as "unruly; impertinent; forward; reckless." The first citation we have is indeed from Stephen Crane, _NYC Sketches_ (1893): "When a feller asts a civil question yehs needn't git gay." The next example is from F.P. Dunne, 1895: "War...'tis like gettin' gay in front iv a polis station." Then George Ade, from _Artie_ in 1896: "Some day you'll get too gay an' a guy'll give you a funny poke." Examples follow, heavily in the 1890s, with reasonable frequency to 1970 (Studs Terkel). We do not have the Anderson cite, but it isn't really necessary to fill out the record. Hope this helps. Jesse T Sheidlower Random House Reference jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 12:47:00 EDT From: "David A. Johns" DJOHNS[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UFPINE.BITNET Subject: Forrest Gump Mike Picone said: # Also, whoever coached Tom Hanks seemed to be using a composite # speech model that included the dropping of post-vocalic /r/ in a # way that is upper-crust and is not characteristic of rural # Alabama. And his vowel qualities usually strayed from what one # would expect to hear coming from an Alabamian. Since he's # supposed to be `slow', some of this, I suppose, may be an attempt # at creating an idiolect, but it seems more likely to me that, # once more, it is that Yankee audience that is in mind and must be # served up something that resembles their stereotyped perceptions # of Southern speech. Could it be that getting an accent right is just too difficult to expect an actor to be able to do? I was thinking about this last week as I watched Martin Sheen make a fool of himself trying to put on an old-fashioned, upper class southern accent to play Robert E. Lee in _Gettysburg_. At first I was just annoyed by the exaggeration of a few characteristics of the target accent -- sharp falling tone contours on stressed syllables, stressed auxiliaries (and no contractions), rising clause-final intonations, etc. -- but then I started wondering about how Sheen would actually learn to do it right. Wouldn't he have to have a native speaker on hand to model every single line? And wouldn't that native speaker have to be a pretty good actor himself in order to get the phrasing right for the required context? I think it's worth pointing out too that Hollywood butchers more than just southern accents. In _Gettysburg_ Sheen's accent sparkled in comparison to the pitiful attempts at Maine accents by "Joshua Chamberlain" and his soldiers, and surely we can't forget the horrible parody of a Boston accent by "Charles Emerson Winchester III" on _M*A*S*H_ (David Ogden Stiers is actually from Peoria, I believe), or John Hillerman's ("Higgins") rendition of RP on _Magnum PI_. I agree that poorly done accents are irritating, but what's the solution? Surely we can't restrict roles to actors who are native speakers of the characters' accents -- can we? David Johns Waycross College Waycross, Georgia ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Aug 1994 14:11:01 CDT From: Mike Picone MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET Subject: Re: Forrest Gump David Johns said: Could it be that getting an accent right is just too difficult to expect an actor to be able to do? I was thinking about this last week as I watched Martin Sheen make a fool of himself trying to put on an old-fashioned, upper class southern accent to play Robert E. Lee in _Gettysburg_. At first I was just annoyed by the exaggeration of a few characteristics of the target accent -- sharp falling tone contours on stressed syllables, stressed auxiliaries (and no contractions), rising clause-final intonations, etc. -- but then I started wondering about how Sheen would actually learn to do it right. Wouldn't he have to have a native speaker on hand to model every single line? And wouldn't that native speaker have to be a pretty good actor himself in order to get the phrasing right for the required context? I think it's worth pointing out too that Hollywood butchers more than just southern accents. In _Gettysburg_ Sheen's accent sparkled in comparison to the pitiful attempts at Maine accents by "Joshua Chamberlain" and his soldiers, ... I agree that poorly done accents are irritating, but what's the solution? Surely we can't restrict roles to actors who are native speakers of the characters' accents -- can we? Points well taken: okay, we can't expect every actor to achieve perfection in portraying a role calling for an `accent', and it would certainly be a sorry business trying to find an ethnically-authentic actor to fill every single role cast. But, in my original remarks on this subject, I attempted to treat this as part of a larger issue: the way the South is perceived and stereotyped. I still see it as akin to the way Native Americans and African Americans have been stereotyped and forced to either assume persona that someone else devised or sit on the side-lines. There has been some progress made for those groups, but the portrayal of white Southerners is still lagging behind. I think it adds a lot to see Wes Studi and other native Americans prominently featured in films (yes, I know he is not an Apache and that the Apache lines he spoke in _Geronimo_ didn't sound right). But Southerners must either continue to be media clowns or else do their best to discard Southern roots to have a chance at a serious role. We can all name a slew of African Americans and even a few Native Americans now who are known for their contribution to serious theater. How many Southerners, drawl 'n all, have been allowed to make their mark? The problem, of course, goes beyond the media industry, because it is popular perception that wants a drawl to be part of a funny persona. But as long as the media caters to those perceptions, it will be a white Southern variation on the Amos 'n Andy syndrome. Yes, I'm human and I've laughed at some Amos 'n Andy gags, and likewise for Hee Haw and the Clampetts, etc., but there is also a dark side to all of this that feeds on disrespect for color, creed and accent. Since Southern roles are so prominent in the movie industry, as it turns out, you'd think there would be at least a few serious actors allowed to wear their Southern accent as a badge of authenticity and that this would be seen as a positive contribution to many of the films that have been mentioned in this exchange. Instead, we are served up imitation after imitation. A lot of this may be completely lost on the rest of the nation, but in the South, the subtext penetrates. So, I will attempt once more to disengage myself from this exchange (which is, of course, totally gauche on my part, since I started it), before I am falsely perceived to be some kind of a crusader for a Southern presence in the movies. I have very little respect for the way the movie industry operates and less patience for the mediocrity that it usually generates and that the public seems to lap up. Its disease is much greater than the specific problem that we have been addressing here. It's only in the context of the social dynamics that the problem of drawl-'n-all in the movies is of any real import. Yet even the fact that there is so little will to overcome the purely technical problem or getting accents more-or-less right while gazillions are spent on every other technical aspect of the film ultimately comes back to this. Incidentally, a perfectly parallel situation exists in France where it is the accent of the "Midi" that is reserved for clowns and must be imitated by `real' actors from elsewhere when a serious role is called for such as in _Jean de Florette_ and _Manon des sources_. Mike Picone University of Alabama ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 1 Aug 1994 to 2 Aug 1994 ********************************************** There are 5 messages totalling 82 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Queries: GAY; SEE WITH ONES HEELS 2. newcomer (2) 3. addendum 4. Forrest Gump ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 07:55:11 -0500 From: Alan Slotkin ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU Subject: Re: Queries: GAY; SEE WITH ONES HEELS The 8th ed. of Partridge's work cites GAY as "slightly intoxicated" 19th-20th c.; as "impudent, impertinent, presumptuous" US (--1899). Crane does indeed use it in the New York Sketches as the Random House dictionary notes. Alan Slotkin ars7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tntech.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 13:47:07 -0400 From: I'M ZEN LIKE DAT LGASTON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NPR.ORG Subject: newcomer I joined this conference out of curiousity about what people into dialacts talk about: I learned a new term like "the immutable form of be" but I've already forgotten it!!!! So I thought this would be a good place to share some progressive tense forms I've been studying. (A friend and I were just being silly and came up with these.) Use the phrase "to be gone", we've come up with the following uses in African-American culture. Again, this is for humor only...I don't mean to offend anyone (including my mother, who raised me better): Been gone: When the stress is on 'been', this tense implies something has been gone a fairly long time. Example: That bus *been* gone! Done been gone: When the stress is on 'done', this tense implies something has been gone a very long time. Example: That bus done *been* gone! Been done been gone: When the stress is on the first 'been', this tense implies something has been gone a very, very long time. Example: That bus *been* done been gone! Actually, I've never heard the latter expression used in real life! For some reason, we know when to stop; when it "feels" right... ?? Love to hear your thoughts on this. leslie ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 13:54:18 -0400 From: I'M ZEN LIKE DAT LGASTON[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NPR.ORG Subject: addendum I messed up. It should be "*done* been gone" and not "done *been* gone." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 18:23:00 EDT From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU Subject: newcomer Leslie, If you liked 'immutable be' (although I prefer 'invariant'), I can imagine how much you're going to enjoy learnming that the items you contributed are known as 'completive' (or 'perfective') done and 'remotive' been. Dennis Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 22:36:40 -0500 From: mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Forrest Gump good question--one to think about. Tim ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 2 Aug 1994 to 3 Aug 1994 ********************************************** There is one message totalling 29 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Forrest Gump ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 3 Aug 1994 22:59:50 -0500 From: mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Forrest Gump David Johns observed Martin Sheen's difficulty in doing Gen. Lee's accent for "Gettysburg," and the difficulty of getting accents right. Mike Picone talked about the larger problems in the motion picture industry. I agree with David that maybe it's too much to expect for non[native speakers to get it exactly right. But I do not think much of an effort is made. I have a lot of respect for Martin Sheen as an actor and a human being; I can't help thinking that he might have done better if the director had made that a bigger part of the the role. Which gets me to Mike's point. Yes, there is a lot of arrogance in the movie/TV industries. And I suppose it ticks me off as a professional linguist/dialectologist that a lot of what we know gets ignored by the people who produce this stuff. And I supose part of being ticked off has sg. to do with the failure of the culture at large to take what we know about language variation very seriously. The press invariably reports on any research in dialectology--even the appearance of a humongous project like DARE--very humorously, with a lot of jokes. That's a bummer sometimes. Tim Frazer ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 3 Aug 1994 to 4 Aug 1994 ********************************************** There are 3 messages totalling 67 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. new word contest (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 5 Aug 1994 15:18:55 -0500 From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: new word contest Here's the thing: since the U of I went smoke free I've noticed that clumps of smokers gather at building entrances to smoke, since they can no longer smoke inside. The U even provides ashtrays by the outer doors. The same phenomenon occurs at other smoke-free buildings. At Vanderbilt Hospital I noticed a sign asking smokers not to stand by the entrances, but to move away. Some buildings provide outdoor smoking areas for these people. So my question is this: what new words have arisen, or can we devise, to describe this phenomenon: the gaggle of smokers, the set-aside smoking area, the people who do this (smokers, of course, but is there an appropriate descriptor?) So I thought a contest would be nice. In the back to school spirit. In case of a prize, duplicate ties will be awarded. Respond to me privately and I will summarize, or post to the lists. dennis ----- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Aug 1994 13:36:28 PDT From: "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs, CO" ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM Subject: Re: new word contest Dennis, How about: a smouldering of smokers? Describes both their attitude and their occupation You mentioned gaggle, my favorite came to me when I was sitting in a dentist's chair with at least two hands in my mouth: a gaggle of dental hygenists -- Jim ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 5 Aug 1994 18:38:00 EDT From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU Subject: new word contest In a nondialect mode (I suppose), I would like to supplement the other Dennis' contest with a paltry one of my own. Since people can't smoke at all in hospitals, the (I assume) nearly cured are also released to the outside for a smoke. What word (or phrase) would describe asmoker pushing along his or her own portable IV unit, a sight which my wife and I still find gallows-humorous, although we have witnessed it many times. Dennis Preston (the [dIn[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]s] Dennis). ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 4 Aug 1994 to 5 Aug 1994 ********************************************** There are 2 messages totalling 76 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Bounced Mail 2. new word contest ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 6 Aug 1994 06:48:07 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Bounced Mail When including something from a previous posting, be sure to edit out ADS-L in the headers of the old mail. Otherwise your message will bounce. Date: Fri, 5 Aug 1994 12:49:25 -0400 From: BITNET list server at UGA (1.7f) LISTSERV[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: ADS-L: error report from VIOLET.BERKELEY.EDU To: Natalie Maynor MAYNOR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU The enclosed mail file, found in the ADS-L reader and shown under the spoolid 3720 in the console log, has been identified as a possible delivery error notice for the following reason: "Sender:", "From:" or "Reply-To:" field pointing to the list has been found in mail body. ------------------ Message in error (67 lines) ------------------------- Date: Fri, 5 Aug 1994 09:47:44 -0700 From: ctlntt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu Subject: Re: Forrest Gump David Johns observed Martin Sheen's difficulty in doing Gen. Lee's accent for "Gettysburg," and the difficulty of getting accents right. Mike Picone talked about the larger problems in the motion picture industry. I agree with David that maybe it's too much to expect for non[native speakers to get it exactly right. But I do not think much of an effort is made. I have a lot of respect for Martin Sheen as an actor and a human being; I can't help thinking that he might have done better if the director had made that a bigger part of the the role. Which gets me to Mike's point. Yes, there is a lot of arrogance in the movie/TV industries. And I suppose it ticks me off as a professional linguist/dialectologist that a lot of what we know gets ignored by the people who produce this stuff. And I supose part of being ticked off has sg. to do with the failure of the culture at large to take what we know about language variation very seriously. The press invariably reports on any research in dialectology--even the appearance of a humongous project like DARE--very humorously, with a lot of jokes. That's a bummer sometimes. Tim Frazer Hmmm -- Is it "the failure of the culture at large to take what we know . . . very seriously" or is it rather our failure as professionals to impress upon the culture at large that what we know is worthy of its attention? Scholars from other fields --theologians, for example-- might make a similar comment. Somehow T. Frazer's comment ties up very naturally with recent debates on topics such as mainstream vs. nonmainstream linguistics and popularization. Assuming that the subjects of our study and research are intrinsically important, the unanswered question is how to convince the general public that this is the case. It cannot be said that the profession has been particularly successful in doing this. M. Azevedo UCBerkeley ctlntt[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]violet.berkeley.edu ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Aug 1994 11:51:17 -0500 From: mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: new word contest I don't have any contest entries, but you reminded me of our friend John, who even a month before he passed away this summer, would drag his IV unit into the bathroom to grab a couple of puffs in secret so the nurses wouldn't yell at him. Tim ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 5 Aug 1994 to 6 Aug 1994 ********************************************** There are 3 messages totalling 38 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. No subject given 2. new word contest 3. eye dialect ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 8 Aug 1994 08:21:07 -0400 From: Rosina Lippi-Green rosina[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UMICH.EDU Subject: No subject given I'm not sure how to do so, but I would like to DE subscribe from ads. Could you let me know how to proceed? Thanks rosina lippi-green ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Aug 1994 12:00:18 -0500 From: Lana P Strickland striclp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.AUBURN.EDU Subject: Re: new word contest Dennis, As Jim's entry suggests, the phrase shouldn't be a description of a group of animals...considering that no animals except humans smoke. But cars do....how about "a jam of smokers"? Lana striclp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.auburn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Aug 1994 22:39:18 -0500 From: mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: eye dialect Question: When you encounter "what" in a text spelled "whut"-- is that eye dialect or does that have some sort of phonetic reality? To me the "u" simply represents a schwa and hence its eye dialect. But is that just my perspective? Tim Frazer ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 6 Aug 1994 to 8 Aug 1994 ********************************************** There are 5 messages totalling 81 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. eye dialect (4) 2. new word contest ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 00:14:54 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: eye dialect As Sumner Ives points out in his article on the literary use of dialect, one must know about the author's dialect to determine what his/her dialect spellings mean. What's eye dialect to a whut-speaker may not appear so to a what-speaker, /h-/ or no. wut, wat, whut.... DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 08:51:27 EDT From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: new word contest As Jim's entry suggests, the phrase shouldn't be a description of a group of animals...considering that no animals except humans smoke. Lana striclp[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.auburn.edu Excuse me, but dragons and caterpillars that live on mushrooms smoke. I think that I've seen them. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 08:20:54 -0500 From: Alan Slotkin ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU Subject: Re: eye dialect Regarding Tim Frazer's question re eye dialect. Whut seems the same as what to me, just as wuz for was indicates the normal pronunciation, yet at the same time makes the utterance appear more rustic, more uneducated. Alan Slotkin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 08:41:57 -0500 From: mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: eye dialect As Don points out, we have to know the dialect of the speaker. But I think the "whut" spelling has become pretty universal in dialect writing, regardless of whatever specific region is being represented. (For the record, I was looking at an "Amos n Andy" script reporduced in the recent Free Press book on that show.) Tim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 20:50:03 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: eye dialect Re whut. A pun/joke that comes to mind frequently is one told by Flip Wilson on maybe the Ed Sullivan Show. Did you know that Worcestershire sauce hasn't always had that name? Used to be just "black sauce" till one of Flip's buddies held a bottle of it in his hand and asked "Woos dis hyere sauce?" The spelling 'whut'/'whu's' wouldn't work very well, would it? The vowel isn't right, for one thing. Tim Frazer's query was asking for an easy answer to a complex question. Not only is the author's dialect a variable, but the regional/social dialect of the speaker being caricatured by the writer must be taken into account -- or not taken into account if we're tempted to use the "standard" eye dialect spelling 'whut'. DMLance ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 8 Aug 1994 to 9 Aug 1994 ********************************************** There are 12 messages totalling 328 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. you (5) 2. singular they, y'all 3. he/she (3) 4. your male type cats (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 11:09:39 -0500 From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: you Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 10:45:06 -0500 From: Dennis Baron baron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ux1.cso.uiuc.edu To: baron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Subject: you Thought y'all'd be interested in this extension of an old discussion: Newsgroups: alt.usage.english From: peter[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]fourier.newcastle.edu.au (Peter Moylan) Subject: Re: "You" [was: herstory-this bugs me] Date: Mon, 8 Aug 1994 23:26:17 GMT Greg Resch (resch[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cpcug.org) wrote: [Comments about the loss of "thou" and "thee"] dwharper[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ingr.com (Dan Harper) wrote: Sorry, perhaps I should have written, "There seems to be a real need in English for a plural second person pronoun that is different in form from the singular second person pronoun." I can almost agree with that, except that there *was* one, which we seem (*supra*) to have dropped. That, and my objection to a related attempt now in vogue to institute the use of "they" for the putatively offensive "he" and "she," are why I object to a *new* "separate" form. But the "you-all" and "youse" mentioned earlier are dialectal in America, so I can not accept them as having gained some "pluplural" meaning. Sorry. ^^^^^^^^^ [JOKE!] There is a small part of the USA where "y'all" seems to be doing its job as a plural; on the other hand, we've seen complaints in this group that some people are now using "y'all" as a _singular_ pronoun. Something similar is happening in Australia. One does hear "youse" moderately often - although it has never been adopted by the "educated" speakers - and at first sight this appears to satisfy the need for a plural pronoun. I have noticed, however, that many people who use "youse" have started using "youses" as the plural form, which suggests that they think of "youse" as being singular. My overall impression is that native English speakers don't want to have separate pronouns for the second person singular and plural. Whenever a new plural form is introduced, it evolves to the point where the singular/plural distinction is lost again. I thought the parallel to what may be happening with the third person was obvious. I'm not at all convinced that there is a parallel. Blurring the singular/plural distinction in the third person works in some situations, but not in others. The words "he", "she", and "it" show no sign at all of following "thou" into oblivion. -- Peter Moylan peter[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ee.newcastle.edu.au (also peter[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]tesla.newcastle.edu.au, eepjm[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]cc.newcastle.edu.au) Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 11:32:45 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: singular they, y'all Would everyone please come in and take his seat. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 14:13:08 EDT From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: you From: Dennis Baron baron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ux1.cso.uiuc.edu Subject: you Thought y'all'd be interested in this extension of an old discussion: s. The words "he", "she", and "it" show no sign at all of following "thou" into oblivion. -- Peter Moylan peter[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ee.newcastle.edu.au Queries: 1) My mother taught me to use "it" for babies regardless of sex; she herself used "it" for a baby until about the time it started to walk and talk--at which time she referred to it as "he" or "she." I offended people here in Middle Georgia--well, women (because men never asked about my baby except to express sympathy for the chaos at home)--when I referred to my infant daughter as an "it." Anybody else's momma teach them/him/her the same use of "it/him/her"? Was this some bizarre pronoun calque from Bohemian? 2) My mother-in-law (r-less Middle Georgia resident all of her life) systematically refers to my cats (which/whom she may still regard as kittens despite their middle age) with the wrong natural gender (but never her own cats--which/whom she does not regard as kittens--well, one is well over 20 pounds). I'm starting to use this crazy pronoun system myself, and I'm wondering if this trans-sexual usage is idiosyncratic (like my own constant confusion of right and left) or if it is just a part of Southern American that I need to know more about. My r-full wife does not confuse the genders of pets (or babies); she also consciously avoids sounding "old fashioned Southern." Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 15:14:32 -0400 From: Ellen Johnson ellenj[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ATLAS.UGA.EDU Subject: he/she As part of my field work, I interviewed a white male from Middle Georgia, in fact Baldwin County, who was about 75 and who had a bizarre use of pronouns. Everything was "he", including an insect and a nursing mother cat he showed me in his barn. I don't remember him ever using "it", though I can't think of a use of "he" for an inanimate object right now. At the time, Sali Mufwene suggested to me that this usage was like the creole "i" or "im" for an all-purpose third person pronoun. I've visited this area several times lately and haven't noticed it again. My own Southern, though Atlanta-born, idiolect includes the use of "it" for babies when I don't know (or remember) their sex, though I have a sense that it might be offensive to some. For some strange cognitive reason, I almost always refer to dogs as "he" and cats as "she", slipping up even when I know better. Ellen JOhnson ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 15:38:27 EDT From: mai MAINGR01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UKCC.UKY.EDU Subject: Re: he/she My Grandmother used to say it as an endearing or diminutive when referring to a child. I may have picked it up from her. This would be Louisville area or S. Ind. I note that German diminutives -chen/-lein/-li are all used with the neuter gender, tho I kind of doubt there is a relationship. Mark Ingram Lexington, Ky. maingr01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ukcc.uky.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 16:13:27 -0500 From: mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: you 2) My mother-in-law (r-less Middle Georgia resident all of her life) systematically refers to my cats (which/whom she may still regard as kittens despite their middle age) with the wrong natural gender (but never her own cats--which/whom she does not regard as kittens--well, one is well over 20 pounds). I'm starting to use this crazy pronoun system myself, and I'm wondering if this trans-sexual usage is idiosyncratic (like my own constant confusion of right and left) or if it is just a part of Southern American that I need to know more about. My r-full wife does not confuse the genders of pets (or babies); she also consciously avoids sounding "old fashioned Southern." Wayne Glowka My late mother in law lived herlife in jacksonville, fla. She was an r-less speaker, and the male cat we sent her (and which she finally sent back) was always "the kitten" (even at 20 + lbs) and "she." Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 16:16:46 -0500 From: mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: he/she Ellen metions the guy in Georgia with invariant "he". A farmer in Fulton County, Illinois, used to take a bunch of us on hikes. He wold lecture us about woodchucks (he) and even plants (he). There is some South Midland speech in Fulton county, though you confederates wouldn't recognize it, I'm sure, as "southern." Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 15:12:25 PDT From: "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs, CO" ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM Subject: Re: you From personal experience, I've always had a strong tendency to refer to dogs as Status: R males and cats as females. I don't think it is a speech thing, to me dogs seem to have masculine (mascanine) characteristics and cats seem to have feminine (felinimine) ones. Don't ask me to explain why, gender politics always gets me in trouble. %^) -- Jim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 18:12:58 -0500 From: mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: you I have always thought the male/female thing on dogs and cats was pretty universal, not regional. Aren't cats always "she" in nursery rhymes? Back to "whut"--Don Lance said I'mn asking a complicated question, but I can't resist this simple survey: How many of you out there, just off the top of your head, would regard the "whut" spelling a s eye dialect? Tim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 12:28:37 GMT+1200 From: Tim Behrend ASI_BEH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCNOV2.AUCKLAND.AC.NZ Subject: Re: your male type cats On Wednesday, 10 August, Tim Frazer (mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU) wrote: I have always thought the male/female thing on dogs and cats was pretty universal, not regional. Aren't cats always "she" in nursery rhymes? Not always so for nursery rhymes and folktales. Remember Puss'n'Boots? In our own day, the presence of tomcats like Felix the Cat, Fritz, Tom (and Jerry), Topcat, Garfield and other cartoon characters pretty strongly affirms feline masculinity. So do such expressions as catting around (but not catty), and terms like cat (beat culture), fat cat, cat house, cat burglar, cat-o'-nine-tails. Ideolectically, for me all domestic animals are pretty much "it"s, with no sense of discomfort or apology to anthropomorphist owners. On the the it-ification of babies, though, while I do find myself using it, I always feel dissonance and have a sense that its a bit inappropriate. Back to "whut"--Don Lance said I'mn asking a complicated question, but I can't resist this simple survey: How many of you out there, just off the top of your head, would regard the "whut" spelling a s eye dialect? I'm curious what the exact meaning of "eye dialect" is. Any definitions handy for a non-dialectologist? Tim Behrend Asian Languages, University of Auckland Tim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 17:42:21 PDT From: "Jim Ague, ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]redrck.enet.dec.com, Col Spgs, CO" ague[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]REDRCK.ENET.DEC.COM Subject: Re: your male type cats From Tim Behrend, arguing that cat has many masculine usages: Status: R "... fat cat, cat house, ..." I'm not sure whut "cat house" means down under, but up here (from whut I have heard), a "cat house" is pretty much a feminine thing, except for its clientele. -- Jim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 13:13:10 GMT+1200 From: Tim Behrend ASI_BEH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCNOV2.AUCKLAND.AC.NZ Subject: Re: your male type cats Jim, When I put together the post and mentioned cat houses and catting around I wondered, too, which direction the cat was pointing. My sense was that it had to do with acting like a tomcat, and that the cat of cat house derived from that. The OED's second definition of cat is specifically "he-cat", with no corresponding gloss for cat = she-cat. My feeling is that in contemporary American English feminine associations for felines are most identified with words associated with puss and pussy, while "cat" is either more gender neutral or masculine, as mentioned above. By the way, though I work in New Zealand, I am an East-Side Cleveland boy. Cheers, Tim Behrend ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 9 Aug 1994 to 10 Aug 1994 *********************************************** There are 15 messages totalling 352 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. eye dialect 2. Your male and female type cats (2) 3. Of Cats and Eye Dialect (4) 4. P.S. re Eye Dialect (2) 5. sketching linguistic rules 6. your male type cats (2) 7. you 8. Eye Dialect (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Aug 1994 23:59:09 EDT From: David Carlson Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: eye dialect I never have considered "whut" for "what" or "wuz" for "was" or "offis" for "office" as eye-dialect. They indicate to me that the speaker was not well educated and would not be likely to spell them correctly. I've long thought that eye-dialect was essentially a visual thing as in some hymns where "Lord" has "word" as an eye rhyme. Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com David Carlson 34 Spaulding St. Amherst MA 01002 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 08:41:33 EDT From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: Your male and female type cats I am saving everybody's cattish remarks. Let me, however, provide some clarification. My mother-in-law's practice does not use "she" for all cats. Male cats are inevitably referred to with "she," but female cats are referred to as "he." I'll have to listen, but I think that she may do the same thing with other animals. My wife, by the way, insists that her mother also inverts the gender of pronouns with her own cats, not just ours. I guess that I am learning that pronoun use for animals is fairly complex. One note: despite joking remarks to the contrary, neutered male cats are still fairly masculine in their behavior. They may not spray or stray, but they put on shows of dominance and even attempt mounting. I've got two neutered male cats, and they are extremely hard to live with--they are demanding, needy, willful, and violent. The same thing could probably be said of me, I don't know. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 08:02:51 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Of Cats and Eye Dialect I remember thinking that all cats were female and all dogs male until I came home from playing next door and found that our dog had just had puppies. It took me longer to find out that ponies weren't baby horses. Re eye dialect: I do consider spellings like "whut" and "wuz" eye dialect, even though they're artificial in that the spelling doesn't really represent (to me) a different pronunciation. They're usually accompanied by other features intended to represent dialects spoken by uneducated characters and serve more or less as symbols. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 08:17:07 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: P.S. re Eye Dialect (This p.s. may be posted before my original, which I haven't seen distributed yet.) I was just thinking back on what I wrote a few minutes ago (or what I think I wrote -- I never save copies) and am pretty sure I worded things in a weird way -- often the case in my e-mail. I think I said something like "I consider 'whut' and 'wuz' eye dialect even though they represent ordinary pronunciation" when what I really meant was "because they represent ordinary pronunciation." There's a reason I wrote what I did, but I won't bore you with the interesting (to me only) wandering of my thoughts at the time. I was developing a new theory -- but it crashed. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 09:33:30 EDT From: Sonja Lanehart R2SLL1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AKRONVM.BITNET Subject: sketching linguistic rules Could someone suggest a good intro linguistics textbook (that is usually widely available or easily found) that does a good job of explaining how to state phonological rules (or linguistic rules in general)? I need to sketch some linguistic rules for samples of speech I have collected. I also would just like to have a good intro linguistics book on my shelf for reference. Thanks in advance. SL Lanehart University of Michigan--Ann Arbor Department of English Language and Literature ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 08:13:32 -0700 From: Allen Maberry maberry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]U.WASHINGTON.EDU Subject: Re: your male type cats I remember being taught (in Oregon 1950-60s) that cats were refered to as "she" if their gender was uncertain. Ships and a few other things were invariably "she", as was almost any vehicle in the stock phrase "She's a real beauty". Allen Maberry University of Washington Libraries On Thu, 11 Aug 1994, Tim Behrend wrote: On Wednesday, 10 August, Tim Frazer (mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU) wrote: I have always thought the male/female thing on dogs and cats was pretty universal, not regional. Aren't cats always "she" in nursery rhymes? Not always so for nursery rhymes and folktales. Remember Puss'n'Boots? In our own day, the presence of tomcats like Felix the Cat, Fritz, Tom (and Jerry), Topcat, Garfield and other cartoon characters pretty strongly affirms feline masculinity. So do such expressions as catting around (but not catty), and terms like cat (beat culture), fat cat, cat house, cat burglar, cat-o'-nine-tails. Ideolectically, for me all domestic animals are pretty much "it"s, with no sense of discomfort or apology to anthropomorphist owners. On the the it-ification of babies, though, while I do find myself using it, I always feel dissonance and have a sense that its a bit inappropriate. Back to "whut"--Don Lance said I'mn asking a complicated question, but I can't resist this simple survey: How many of you out there, just off the top of your head, would regard the "whut" spelling a s eye dialect? I'm curious what the exact meaning of "eye dialect" is. Any definitions handy for a non-dialectologist? Tim Behrend Asian Languages, University of Auckland Tim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 10:20:10 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: Of Cats and Eye Dialect As used by Sumner Ives and others who have done research on literary use of dialect, 'eye dialect' is spelling that is not "standard" but represents a "standard" pronunciation. Thus, 'wuz' and 'whut' are eye dialect if one considers these pronunciations "standard." What pronunciations? What about the h-less pronunciations of 'what'? I'd wager that some of you who've said 'whut' is eye dialect to you do not say the h' -- and so your eye dialect form should be 'wut'. Even in eye dialect a writer can't stray very far from the standard form. That's why I referred to "standard form of eye dialect" in a previous note. Of course, eye dialect does more than represent pronunciation (i.e., a non-stigmatizing pronunciation). It implies that the character might misspell the word. Or it's decoration, in that some markers of rusticity might be desired and the writer has available a limited set of "standard" eye dialect spellings that his/her editor will accept. In a given literary context the eye dialect may just mark informal conversation. An eye dialect marker here and there may do the trick without in a story. It doesn't take much dialect marking to slow down reading. In the preceding sentence where I said "can't stray" I should said "can't afford to stray very far from the standard form without overdoing the marking." If you're doing a Jim, you must use certain forms, and if you're doing a Huck or a Tom or a Becky you do others -- in varying denisities. And if you want to show that Huck has learned a lot, you reduce the dialect and eye dialect. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 14:37:55 -0500 From: debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: you Queries: 1) My mother taught me to use "it" for babies regardless of sex; she herself used "it" for a baby until about the time it started to walk and talk--at which time she referred to it as "he" or "she." I offended people here in Middle Georgia--well, women (because men never asked about my baby except to express sympathy for the chaos at home)--when I referred to my infant daughter as an "it." Anybody else's momma teach them/him/her the same use of "it/him/her"? Was this some bizarre pronoun calque from Bohemian? Wayne Glowka No, not at all. Until recently the pronoun of choice for infants seems to have been "it." You find this in everything from newspaper stories to fiction to supreme court decisions. I've even seen it in linguistic elicitation tests (which were testing something else besides pronouns). I was initially startled by this, since it seemed so inhuman. After 3 children, I think it's the parents who become its, not the kids. dennis -- Dennis Baron debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu Department of English 217-333-2392 University of Illinois fax: 217-333-4321 608 South Wright Street Urbana, Illinois 61801 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 17:46:17 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Eye Dialect Do any of you know who first used eye dialect? My wandering thoughts early this morning (the ones that muddled my first posting on the subject because I was thinking about one thing while writing about another) have gotten me interested in the history of literary dialect in general. I guess the history of eye dialect is tricky since, as has been pointed out, the pronunciation of the writer is part of the picture. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 18:02:52 -0500 From: Daniel S Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAROON.TC.UMN.EDU Subject: Re: your male type cats On Thu, 11 Aug 1994, Allen Maberry wrote: I remember being taught (in Oregon 1950-60s) that cats were refered to as "she" if their gender was uncertain. Ships and a few other things were invariably "she", as was almost any vehicle in the stock phrase "She's a real beauty". Growing up in the '50's in Ulster County NY, I learned from my father that tractors and other machinery were female -- unless they behaved very badly, in which case they became male (as in "you son of a bitch.") Note: In the original Star Trek, it was "Her mission: to go boldly...." In Star Trek: The Next Generation (aka ST Jr), this becomes "Its mission...." Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]maroon.tc.umn.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 18:07:54 -0500 From: mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Your male and female type cats i have two male cats like Wayne, and they often do act as thought they don't know what's been clipped. However, they are more affectionate and warm than the three females they (and we) share the house with. The females are much more paranoid and territorial. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 18:10:12 -0500 From: mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Of Cats and Eye Dialect On Thu, 11 Aug 1994, Natalie Maynor wrote: Re eye dialect: I do consider spellings like "whut" and "wuz" eye dialect, even though they're artificial in that the spelling doesn't really represent (to me) a different pronunciation. To me, that's a definition of eye dialect, and I think thats what it is in the Bowdre and Ives essays, which I'm too indolent (today, anyway) to look up even tough they sit about 4 feet from where i am writing. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 18:11:15 -0500 From: mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: P.S. re Eye Dialect On Thu, 11 Aug 1994, Natalie Maynor wrote: (This p.s. may be posted before my original, which I haven't seen distributed yet.) I was just thinking back on what I wrote a few minutes ago (or what I think I wrote -- I never save copies) and am pretty sure I worded things in a weird way -- often the case in my e-mail. I think I said something like "I consider 'whut' and 'wuz' eye dialect even though they represent ordinary pronunciation" when what I really meant was "because they represent ordinary pronunciation." There's a reason I wrote what I did, but I won't bore you with the interesting (to me only) wandering of my thoughts at the time. I was developing a new theory -- but it crashed. --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) Sorry, natalie. I posted my other thing before I saw this. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 18:29:54 -0500 From: mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: Eye Dialect Good question--who first used eye dialect? I wonder about henry fielding. Tim F ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Aug 1994 19:15:19 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: Of Cats and Eye Dialect Re eye dialect: I do consider spellings like "whut" and "wuz" eye dialect, even though they're artificial in that the spelling doesn't really represent (to me) a different pronunciation. To me, that's a definition of eye dialect, and I think thats what it is Now I understand what you were talking about when you said you had sent this before reading my p.s. I got your second posting before this one, for some reason. That is also the definition of eye dialect to me. I should have said "because" instead of "even though." I keep telling myself that one of these days I should start reading things I've written before sending them. But I bet I won't... That would take away part of the fun of e-life. On the question raised by somebody else (Don Lance, I think -- I've been out of town all day and raced through e-mail when I got home) about whether "whut" is really eye dialect for people with h-less "what," I say yes. Keeping part of the standard spelling doesn't prevent it from being eye dialect, IMHO. Moving too far away from the standard spelling makes reading too difficult -- especially for those of us who say and hear a clear /hw/. I think I might have mentioned on the list before that I stood and stared at a handwritten sign on a shop window in Memphis one time, trying to figure out what it was saying because the letter Y was supposed to represent the word "Why" (I figured out finally). To me, Y does not sound at all like "why." --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 10 Aug 1994 to 11 Aug 1994 ************************************************ There is one message totalling 14 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. whut the hale ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 12 Aug 1994 09:16:05 -0500 From: mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: whut the hale I could have saved a lot of trouble if I had clarified my original posting about "whut." I should have asked everyone if they considered the VOWEL to be eye-dialect, setting aside the h-less issue. But I think Natalie's right, that keeping much of standard spelling occurs for aesthetic and practical reasons. tim ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 11 Aug 1994 to 12 Aug 1994 ************************************************ There is one message totalling 25 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. eye dialect ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 14 Aug 1994 15:57:12 -0700 From: THOMAS L CLARK tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Re: eye dialect On Mon, 8 Aug 1994 mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU wrote: Question: When you encounter "what" in a text spelled "whut"-- is that eye dialect or does that have some sort of phonetic reality? To me the "u" simply represents a schwa and hence its eye dialect. But is that just my perspective? Tim Frazer Dennis Preston wrote the best article I saw on Eye/Literary dialect in American Speech (tell us when, Dinnis). But I was brought up short a couple of weeks ago when telling a group of British-taught ESL teachers that "wuz" was simply a phonetic rendering of "was," and eye dialect because both are pronunced the same. One teacher raised her eyebrows and said both words, one with schwa and the other low-back. I was nonplussed until I realized I should have regionally restricted my statement. Cheers, tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 12 Aug 1994 to 14 Aug 1994 ************************************************ There are 2 messages totalling 54 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. you (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 10:06:00 EDT From: "Dennis.Preston" 22709MGR[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MSU.EDU Subject: Re: you In-Reply-To: The letter of Wednesday, 10 August 1994 7:39pm ET The article of mine Tom Clark refers to is Dennis Preston, 1986, The Li'l Abner syndrome. American Speech 60,4:328-336. Those who might want to pursue this issue further might have a look at my 'Ritin' fowklower daun 'rong: folklorists failures in phonology. Journal of American Folklore 95,377:304-26 (1982) and a following discussion between E. Fine and me in the same journal (1983) 96,381:321-30 (Fine, In defense of literary dialect) and 330-39 (Preston, Mowr bad spellun'). That eye-dialect may differ for speakers of different dialects seems, to me, t o be a minor issue. I doubt if 'wuz' spellers really have different vowels in mind when they employ it. I still buy into the idea that such spellings simply belittle the caricatured speaker, usually in the direction of illiteracy and/or lack of intelligence. That is one of the reasons I so vigorously oppose the use of such 'respellings' in discourse, folklore, ethnography and other fields which represent the actual speech of respondents. If the pronunciation is important, I believe a phonetic transcription (of appropriate 'narrowness') is the only reasonable solution. Belletristic practice is another matter, and I have nothing to contribute to what writers who want to make a certain impression on readers should (or should not) do. Dennis Preston 22709mgr[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]msu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Aug 1994 09:20:23 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: you The article of mine Tom Clark refers to is Dennis Preston, 1986, The Li'l Abner syndrome. American Speech 60,4:328-336. Since I have the reference a couple of feet from my desk and checked it, the date of publication is actually 1985. That eye-dialect may differ for speakers of different dialects seems, to me, t o be a minor issue. I doubt if 'wuz' spellers really have different vowels in mind when they employ it. I still buy into the idea that such spellings simply belittle the caricatured speaker, usually in the direction of illiteracy and/or lack of intelligence. Amen! I often have the impression that those who use eye-dialect overdo it, making the variety so represented look (sound?) more different than it actually is from the reference variety, at least in respect to pronunciation. Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene Linguistics, U. of Chicago s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 14 Aug 1994 to 15 Aug 1994 ************************************************ There are 3 messages totalling 83 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. you (3) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 16 Aug 1994 23:53:01 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: you As an extension to Dennis Preston's reaction to popular/"scientific" use of eye dialect.... It seems to me that in the past decade there has been a considerable increase in the use of "bad grammar" and four-letter words in quotations in newspaper articles. We who've been (mis)quoted by reporters are well aware of where many of the quotes come. The news people would argue that they're attempting to be more accurate, but stereotyping seems to me to have a higher priority than accuracy in these quotes. I'm a 'was' rather than 'wuz' speaker, so my reaction to this particular item of eye dialect is different from that of 'wuz' speakers. I mean that I use the low vowel in stressed 'was' but of course use a schwa when the word is in an unstressed position. From my own reaction, I suspect that some writers who use 'wuz' in eye dialect are indirectly commenting on their own "correct" pronuncation, the one taught by Miss Fidditch. Cross-dialectal messiness notwithstanding, the use of 'wuz' is one of the most useful eye dialect items that a writer can use to suggest dialect but not "heavy" dialect. DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 10:08:27 -0500 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: you On Tue, 16 Aug 1994, Donald M. Lance wrote: It seems to me that in the past decade there has been a considerable increase in the use of "bad grammar" and four-letter words in quotations in newspaper articles. We who've been (mis)quoted by reporters are well aware of where many of the quotes come. The news people would argue that they're attempting to be more accurate, but stereotyping seems to me to have a higher priority than accuracy in these quotes. Bob Greene had a column on this phenomemom (chicago trib; dunno if it was syndicated) and cited it as another example of the decline of civility and civilization. If anyone saved it I'd like to get a copy. I'm a 'was' rather than 'wuz' speaker, so my reaction to this particular item of eye dialect is different from that of 'wuz' speakers. I mean that I use the low vowel in stressed 'was' but of course use a schwa when the word is in an unstressed position. From my own reaction, I suspect that some writers who use 'wuz' in eye dialect are indirectly commenting on their own "correct" pronuncation, the one taught by Miss Fidditch. My guess would be that this distinction is unusual. I think I hve the same vowel in both positions, as do most of the people I know. Do I just have a bad ear? Or is the tendency I describe a striclty inlandnorth/north midland thing? I know my students panic when they can't hear the difference between a schwa and anything slightly lower or low-bck (represented by an upside down "a", respectively, and a carrot in IPA). I have to skip over that cause I can't either. Cross-dialectal messiness notwithstanding, the use of 'wuz' is one of the most useful eye dialect items that a writer can use to suggest dialect but not "heavy" dialect. Yes, and I think it's useful precisely cause it does not represent a real ifference between standard and vernacular. That's a tough one to prove absolutely, though. Any suggestions out there? Tim Frazer ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 17 Aug 1994 13:47:57 -0500 From: wachal robert s rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Subject: Re: you I too have a schwa in both stressed and unstressed WAS Wachal ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 15 Aug 1994 to 17 Aug 1994 ************************************************ There are 2 messages totalling 44 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "subverting the integrity of the language" (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 20 Aug 1994 14:47:15 EDT From: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: "subverting the integrity of the language" Bob Greene, crusading columnist of the Chicago Tribune, would agree with Don Lance's observation there has been a considerable increase in the use of "bad grammar" and four-letter words in quotations in newspaper articles. Tim Frazer asked for a specific citation. Here are two: Taking a break from railing against judges for returning happy adopted kids to vicious birth parents, Greene fulminated against "the 'you-guys'-ization of America" (July 27) and "'street talk,' from the rankest vulgarities to the sloppiest English" (Aug 9). Here is his historical perspective: "Americans are increasingly abandoning grammar and proper usage of the language. For most of the country's history, men and women-and children-considered it important to at least try to speak correctly. If they didn't, they feared embarrassment-it was humiliating for a person to be unable to express himself or herself in the right manner. "That attitude is largely gone...." "Thus, the dilemma faced by newspapers. . . . Do they quote people the way the people speak, and thus help legitimize sloppy grammar? Or do they violate rules of accruacy, and make people who don't know how to speak sound as if they do?" ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 20 Aug 1994 18:40:36 -0500 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: "subverting the integrity of the language" Gee, I gotta weigh on on Bob Greene. But I better think about it first. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 17 Aug 1994 to 20 Aug 1994 ************************************************ There are 2 messages totalling 28 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "subverting the integrity of the language" (2) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 06:27:08 -0700 From: "Joseph B. Monda" monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SEATTLEU.EDU Subject: Re: "subverting the integrity of the language" Speaking of which: what is the "correct" form to use: 'she was a relative unknown in the field' or 'she is a relatively unknown etc.'? Inquiring minds with linguistic integrity wish to know. Joseph B. Monda email: monda[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]seattleu.edu smail: English Department Seattle University Seattle WA 98122 (206) 296-5425 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 22 Aug 1994 14:56:51 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: "subverting the integrity of the language" Having just returned from visiting relatives, I misread Joseph Bonda's "a relative unknown in the field." In his message "a relative" was at the end of the line, thus enabling incomplete reading of N + post-modifier. Now I can't muster up enough judgment to give a serious response to Bonda's query. Thought I'd share this little tidbit with you all. DMLance ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 20 Aug 1994 to 22 Aug 1994 ************************************************ There is one message totalling 11 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. "subverting the integrity of the language" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 23 Aug 1994 21:03:36 -0500 From: Jeutonne Brewer BREWERJ[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]IRIS.UNCG.EDU Subject: Re: "subverting the integrity of the language" I had the same problem Donald Lance had in reading the message the first time. Because "a relative unknown" is a noun phrase, I would use "relative." Also possible is "she is relatively unknown..." Jeutonne Brewer ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 22 Aug 1994 to 23 Aug 1994 ************************************************ There are 15 messages totalling 311 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. free books (6) 2. free book (3) 3. that's all folks 4. Southern stigma 5. What is a Racist Term? (4) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 09:19:00 CDT From: Edward Callary TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NIU.BITNET Subject: free books I have some extra copies of FROM OZ TO THE ONION PATCH, a permanently-bound, 186 page book, published by the North Central Name Society, that I will send free to the first dozen or so people requesting a copy. The book contains articles on various aspects of names by John Algeo, Fred Cassidy, Bill Nicolaisen, Kelsie Karder, James K. Skipper, Jr., and other. For a free copy, e-mail me your s-mail address. Edward Callary ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 10:54:52 -0400 From: "Becky Howard, Department of Interdisciplinary Writing, Colgate University" BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU Subject: Re: free books Edward, I hope I can get a copy of the book you offer. Thanks-- Becky Howard BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU Department of Interdisciplinary Writing Colgate University, Hamilton NY 13332 (315) 824-7315 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 11:09:34 -0400 From: Jesse T Sheidlower jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]PANIX.COM Subject: Re: free books Edward, I'd very much like a copy of _From Oz..._. My address is Jesse T Sheidlower Random House Reference 201 E. 50th Street New York, NY 10022 jester[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]panix.com Sorry to waste bandwith by replying over the mailing list, but you didn't give you E-mail address. JTS ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 09:38:37 -0700 From: Joseph Jones jjones[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIXG.UBC.CA Subject: free book Dear Edward Callary: I would be pleased to receive a free copy of From Oz to the Onion Patch. Apologies for this burden to the list. Joseph Jones Humanities & Social Sciences University of British Columbia Library 1956 Main Mall Vancouver, British Columbia Canada V6T 1Z1 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 12:59:57 -0400 From: "Bethany Dumas, UTK" DUMASB[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UTKVX.BITNET Subject: Re: free book Dear ADS, I just tried to reply to E. Callary, but now realize that I sent my response to a COmment address. Please let him know that I would like a coy of the free book. Thanks. Bethany Dumas/English/ UTK/Knoxville, TN 37996. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 12:39:00 CDT From: Edward Callary TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NIU.BITNET Subject: that's all folks In my best Pennsylvania German, 'The books are all.' For a while there this morning, I thought you loved me for myself; never have I gotten so much e-mail in three hours. The like of it! I was happy to oblige - and to clear off one of my shelves at least. There is still one way, though, you can avail yourself of all the interesting onomastica that you are currently missing. Join the American Name Society! Dues are STILL ONLY $25 per year and yes you can join now for 95 and get a few 94 issues to boot, for lagniappe, etc. If you would like a membership form, or a FREE sample copy of NAMES, the journal of the ANS, drop me an e- message at TB0EXC1[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MVS.cso.niu.edu (make sure that't TBzero and not the letter o with your s-mail address and I will send one off to you. Cheers Edward Callary, Editor, NAMES ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 14:13:41 EDT From: David Carlson Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Re: free books To: Edward Callary From: David R. Carlson The book looks very interesting, and I'd like a copy. Davidhwaet[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com David R. Carlson 34 Spaulding St. Amherst MA 01002 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 14:52:00 EST From: Trace mchenry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MACE.CC.PURDUE.EDU Subject: Southern stigma I know this is a bit outdated but I jsut read the discussion on the SOuthern accents and I noticed something along these lines yesterday. A friend of mine here in Indiana is from North Carolina and has "lost" his accent on purpose-- he worked in New York City for awhile and maybe that's when he decided it was bad or something. Anyhow, today at age 30 he doesn't sound Southern at all--only on words like 'umbrella' or 'insurance'--but I have noticed when he wants to sound dumb or slow he assumes his native accent, or what I think is his native accent. Just yesterday when we were (jokingly) pretending how we wuld confuse freshmen if they asked for directions he used the 'hick' accent and said "mebbe it's down over there aways". Just something I noticed, Tracey ****************************************************************************** "Be happy. It's one way of being wise" * Tracey McHenry --Collette-- * mchenry[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mace.cc.purdue.edu * Proud Barbra Fan ****************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 08:14:00 +1200 From: "George Halliday (09)483-9039" HALLIDAYG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SCHOOLS.MINEDU.GOVT.NZ Subject: Re: free book Edward, i'd love a copy of the book... G Halliday 311 Don Buck Road Massey Auckland New Zealand ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 23:25:32 +0200 From: Peter Sincak sincak[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CCSUN.TUKE.SK Subject: Re: free books Edward, I hope I can get a copy of the book you offer. Thanks-- Becky Howard BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU Department of Interdisciplinary Writing Colgate University, Hamilton NY 13332 (315) 824-7315 Hi , I would like to have one , also :-) *************************************** Peter Sincak, Ph.D. Department of Cybernetic and Artificial Intelligence, technical University of Kosice, Letna 9, 040 00 Kosice Slovakia Phone: +42-95-57864;FX:+42-95-32748 Internet: sincak[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ccsun.tuke.sk *************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 17:50:44 CST From: salikoko mufwene mufw[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIDWAY.UCHICAGO.EDU Subject: Re: free books Edward: I thought I had identified your address in your announcement but my mail bounced back, undelivered. I am also interested in your book. My address is: Salikoko Mufwene, U. of Chicago, Dept. of Linguistics, 1010 East 59th St., Chicago, IL 60637. I hope I'm not too late now. Thanks, Sali. Salikoko S. Mufwene Linguistics, U. of Chicago s-mufwene[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uchicago.edu 312-702-8531 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 18:49:38 EDT From: Michael Montgomery N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU Subject: What is a Racist Term? I would like to know if there is simple definition of what a "racist term" is or whether we must always take the context into account. More to the point, is "poor white trash" a racist term? Recently I finished a study of terms for poor whites to be found in the LAGS records (212 different ones, by the way) and somehow the media got word of this. A phonecall one afternoon put me instantly on live talk radio in Galveston, TX, to discuss my research. About the third question from the host was "Do you think racist terms like 'poor white trash' are more common today than they used to be?" I didn't respond according to script, because my immediate reaction was that "poor white trash" is as much a social putdown, applied by whites above the line to those perceived to be below it, as a racial one used by blacks for whites. The LAGS data do confirm that it is socially sensitive middle-class whites who say they use it at the highest rate. So I told the radio host that, simply speaking, "poor white trash" was not a racist term, because "trash" was the main insult sometimes it is used. But at this point he expressed considerable annoyance at this obviously muddle-headed professor and thanked me for my time. Click. I still don't know that I would have responded differently to that yes- no question that gave me almost no room to maneuver, but I'm wondering if there is a common understanding of what a "racist term" is. Can we define it only in context according to a set of criteria, like those necessary to identify slang? Is "racist term" a word that is linguis- tically useful? Michael MOngomery, Dept of English, U of South Carolina, Columbia 29208 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 17:42:45 -0700 From: Judith Rascoe boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: What is a Racist Term? "Racist term" seems like a useful phrase, defined as an insulting epithet used by a member of one race or ethnic group to refer disparagingly to a member of another group. In this sense I guess "poor white trash" is only a 'racist term' when the speaker is non-white. But I also agree that the PWT is not racist per se since it is also often used by high-status whites talking about low-status whites. One interesting aspect of PWT, it seems to me, is that it has almost no joking or affectionate connotation. There are examples of racist terms that are very insulting if used by outsiders but are often tossed around teasingly and even warmly inside the group. But I've never heard anybody refer affectionately to himself, his friends or family as "poor white trash." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 20:51:09 -0500 From: Natalie Maynor maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]RA.MSSTATE.EDU Subject: Re: What is a Racist Term? I didn't respond according to script, because my immediate reaction was that "poor white trash" is as much a social putdown, applied by whites above the line to those perceived to be below it, as a racial one used by blacks for whites. I've always thought of it as a term used by whites, not by blacks. I can see how it might be construed as racist, however -- suggesting that "white trash" is a special kind of trash -- that regular trash is not white? --Natalie (maynor[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ra.msstate.edu) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 23:40:38 -0400 From: "Becky Howard, Department of Interdisciplinary Writing, Colgate University" BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU Subject: Re: What is a Racist Term? The particular term under discussion, "poor white trash," seems to me to function both as a racist and classist epithet. Certainly it refers to class--to those above & below the line, as Michael put it. But it also refers to race, and not whites--it's an oblique reference to the Other (presumably African American). The social context of "poor white trash" seems to me to be specifying "trashy, even though white." Becky Howard Department of Interdisciplinary Writing Colgate University BHOWARD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CENTER.COLGATE.EDU ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 23 Aug 1994 to 24 Aug 1994 ************************************************ There are 5 messages totalling 92 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. What is a Racist Term? (3) 2. ADS-L Digest - 23 Aug 1994 to 24 Aug 1994 3. free book ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 22:53:41 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: What is a Racist Term? Maybe in contemporary usage some people consider "racist" any kind of statement that negatively labels a person whose race is identifiable and is associated in some way with the term. Your talk-show buddy might consider it racist for someone to talk about "fascist Republican pigs" in the Senate. "Poor black trash" is not a common term, and aren't all fascist pigs white by default? One, of course, might refer to a "trashy" black person or might lump black and white cops together as "pigs" who'll deprive seekers of innocent fun of their god-given liberty, but generally these terms apply to low-melanin individuals. Calling a black cop a pig might be even more insulting than calling a white cop a pig. I think these generalizations apply whether the name-caller is black, white, or brown. Would any nineties talk-show host that you know be likely (or able) to understand the "subtleties" discussed here? DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 00:38:32 EDT From: Larry Horn LHORN[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]YALEVM.CIS.YALE.EDU Subject: Re: What is a Racist Term? I don't know if anyone mentioned this in a posting I missed, but I've always thought of "poor white trash" in the same way as "white slavery", both clearly encoding the beliefs that "poor trash" and slaves OUGHT to be other than white. Whether these terms are racist might come down to whether the user is alluding to the epistemic or deontic sense of the modal--whether it's just LIKELY that a random instance of poor trashiness or slavery involves non-whites or whether it's actually APPROPRIATE or RIGHT. --Larry Horn ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 09:37:32 EDT From: Al Futrell AWFUTR01[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 23 Aug 1994 to 24 Aug 1994 From: Judith Rascoe boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US "Racist term" seems like a useful phrase, defined as an insulting epithet used by a member of one race or ethnic group to refer disparagingly to a member of another group. In this sense I guess "poor white trash" is only a 'racist term' when the speaker is non-white. But I also agree that the PWT is not racist per se since it is also often used by high-status whites talking about low-status whites. I think Judith is right on target here. Consider the use of "nigger." Usually, it is not considered racist when used by one African-American speaking to or about another African-American. When used by a someone from another race, however, the term is generally interpreted as a racist slur. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 08:55:11 CDT From: Mike Picone MPICONE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UA1VM.BITNET Subject: Re: What is a Racist Term? Racial labels/epithets are probably one of the best examples around of how essential pragmatic information is to the proper interpretation of any utterance. What is interesting to me is to compare racial terminologies in Cajun French to the English system, the latter having undergone shift due to public pressure which Cajun French was able to `hide' from. Thus most Cajuns refer to African-Americans as _les neg'_ (les negres), which can be pejorative or neutral depending on context. However, what is really surprising is that in many Cajun ballads, the term _mon neg'_ is a term of endearment referring to a white Cajun. No doubt this has its origin in the close ties between Cajun and Creole musical roots. Mike Picone University of Alabama ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Aug 1994 09:24:50 -0500 From: Alan Slotkin ARS7950[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]TNTECH.EDU Subject: Re: free book I would love to have a copy of From Oz. Thanks Alan Slotkin English Department Box 5053, TTU Cookeville, TN 38505 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 24 Aug 1994 to 25 Aug 1994 ************************************************ There is one message totalling 19 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Racist terms ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Aug 1994 18:45:59 EDT From: Michael Montgomery N270053[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UNIVSCVM.CSD.SCAROLINA.EDU Subject: Racist terms Of course, it is the pragmatic facts of who, where, why, and how that normally determine if a term is used as a racial insult, but I wonder if this doesn't still leave the matter pretty much up in the air, linguistically speaking. With the advent of speech codes and anti-hate ordinances, when to use any expression that is perceived to be racially pejorative can cause a fuss, if not judicial action, what do linguists have to contribute to those who would endeavor to formulate a strict and usable legal defini- tion of "racist term"? Several ADSers deal regularly with language and law issues, so what would linguists have to say here--only that it depends on the context?? Michael Montgomery, Dept of English, U of S Carolina, Columbia SC 29208 ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 25 Aug 1994 to 26 Aug 1994 ************************************************ There is one message totalling 10 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. racist terms ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 27 Aug 1994 08:39:58 -0500 From: wachal robert s rwachal[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BLUE.WEEG.UIOWA.EDU Subject: racist terms Maybe one should think in terms of umarked (e.g., 'nigger' used by Whites) and marked ('nigger' used by Blacks endearingly) cases bob Wachal ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 26 Aug 1994 to 27 Aug 1994 ************************************************ There is one message totalling 28 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Racist terms--white trash ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 28 Aug 1994 22:56:12 -0500 From: Dennis Baron baron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UX1.CSO.UIUC.EDU Subject: Re: Racist terms--white trash I haven't been following the discussion closely but I thought someone mentioned _white trash_ last week. At our potluck for new TAs Friday night someone from Arkansas said something like "white trash and proud to be." So I asked him about the term being used self-referentially in a positive sense and he said he (age 41) and his Arkansas friends did so routinely, though they all came from families he classified as lower middle class who would be horrified if they knew their children used that term of themselves, and had done so for 20 yrs or more. And he admitted there was some irony in the term as well. -- debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu (\ 217-333-2392 \'\ fax: 217-333-4321 Dennis Baron \'\ __________ Department of English / '| ()_________) Univ. of Illinois \ '/ \ ~~~~~~~~ \ 608 S. Wright St. \ \ ~~~~~~ \ Urbana IL 61801 ==). \__________\ (__) ()__________) ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 27 Aug 1994 to 28 Aug 1994 ************************************************ There are 4 messages totalling 65 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. Conference Announcement, GURT '95 2. racist terms (2) 3. Is there an expert in Florida? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Aug 1994 16:01:01 -0400 From: GURT[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]GUVAX.BITNET Subject: Conference Announcement, GURT '95 ***MARK YOUR CALENDARS*** The Georgetown University Round Table on Languages and Linguistics, GURT '95, will be held March 8-11, 1995. The theme of GURT '95 will be "Linguistics and the Education of Second Language Teachers: Ethnolinguistic, Psycholinguistic and Sociolinguistic Aspects." Presessions will take place Monday, March 6, to Wednesday, March 8, and the main sessions will begin on the evening of Wednesday, March 8, and conclude on Saturday, March 11. Plenary and concurrent sessions will be held in Gaston Hall and the ICC Auditorium on the Georgetown University campus. To be placed on our mailing list, please send a message to the address above, or call (202) 687-5726. We expect to get our first informational flyer out by mid-October. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Aug 1994 16:25:27 -0400 From: Martha Howard UN106005[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WVNVAXA.WVNET.EDU Subject: racist terms My mother and grandmother referred to my great grandmother, who was a bitch on wheels (lived to be 102 and outlived three husbands, all of whom died--my father claimed--to escape her) as the "meanest white woman that ever lived" Racist? Why "white". I never thought to ask although I have always wondered and now there's no one but youall to ask. Please give me your thoughts. Incidentally, we all are white. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Aug 1994 21:27:31 EDT From: AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]AOL.COM Subject: Is there an expert in Florida? A public defender in Ft Lauderdale, Florida, wonders if there is a linguist in the vicinity who does discourse analysis - that is, who could look at a transcript of a conversation and explain what actually is being said. If you are one or know one, please let me know asap. Thanks Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Aug 1994 21:24:46 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: racist terms In talking with internationals or with blacks I've noticed I sometimes use "whites" or "white people" with a bit of a racist implication. Having grown up on the Mexican border, I saw lots of white and brown racism in my "formative" years. And service on the Black Studies Committee and the committee for special "developmental" classes for minorities added a dimension that fostered stereotyping by means of these terms. I also have have heard "meanest white woman/man on earth" and thought the speaker was expressing some sort of pride as well as racial stereotyping. (re Martha Howard's posting) DMLance ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 28 Aug 1994 to 29 Aug 1994 ************************************************ There are 9 messages totalling 148 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. racist terms (4) 2. What is a Racist Term? 3. Is there an expert in Florida? 4. ADS-L Digest - 24 Aug 1994 to 25 Aug 1994 5. Racist terms 6. Just because...doesn't mean ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 09:21:29 CST From: Joan Hall jdhall[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]FACSTAFF.WISC.EDU Subject: Re: racist terms Re: Martha Howard's remark about "the meanest white woman"--a few years ago, a white woman from Virginia remarked about my husband (who is white), that he could eat "more than any white man I ever saw." I found that strange, but it seems to fit the pattern you mention. Joan Hall, DARE ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 10:31:17 EDT From: Wayne Glowka wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MAIL.GAC.PEACHNET.EDU Subject: Re: What is a Racist Term? Judith Rascoe wrote: One interesting aspect of PWT, it seems to me, is that it has almost no joking or affectionate connotation. There are examples of racist terms that are very insulting if used by outsiders but are often tossed around teasingly and even warmly inside the group. But I've never heard anybody refer affectionately to himself, his friends or family as "poor white trash." Well, there is the famous _Poor White Trash Cookbook_, a hit with folks I knew when it came out. The cover photo was memorable. Wayne Glowka Professor of English Director of Research and Graduate Student Services Georgia College Milledgeville, GA 31061 912-453-4222 wglowka[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]mail.gac.peachnet.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 11:26:42 -0400 From: Elizabeth Martinez MARTINEZE[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]COFC.EDU Subject: Re: Is there an expert in Florida? A public defender in Ft Lauderdale, Florida, wonders if there is a linguist in the vicinity who does discourse analysis - that is, who could look at a transcript of a conversation and explain what actually is being said. If you are one or know one, please let me know asap. Thanks Allan Metcalf AAllan[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]aol.com Can you give me more info? Is this in English, Spanish...? Is there a tape or simply transcribed info? I have done some work with discourse analysis.. .but I am not very up on legal terminology, which may be what they are looking for. Let me know... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 11:47:08 -0500 From: "Timothy C. Frazer" mftcf[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UXA.ECN.BGU.EDU Subject: Re: racist terms "meanest white woman" seems to carry the implication that black women are meaner. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 13:11:17 -0500 From: Lewis Sanborne lsanbore[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUNIX.SAU.EDU Subject: Re: racist terms It seems to me that any of these "-est white person" labels have a clearly racist undertone, indicating that the black, or any non-white, is characterized by the extreme, and is consequently less civilized. Lew Sanborne ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 12:59:00 CDT From: Tom Murray TEM[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]KSUVM.BITNET Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 24 Aug 1994 to 25 Aug 1994 Surely ANY descriptive term, used by one person to describe another, is "racist " if the person so described perceives it as such (?). How can any basis for " racist terminology" exclude the listener's feelings? And, on the other hand, i f I call an African-American person a "nigger" and the person isn't offended, h ave I used "racist" terminology? Can any term be "racist" independent of the p erceptions of the person it describes? (But no talkshow host, except maybe Phi l Donahue, would ever pick up on any of this.) Tom Murray ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 14:24:40 -0500 From: Lewis Sanborne lsanbore[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]SAUNIX.SAU.EDU Subject: Re: Racist terms On 8/30/94 Tom Murray wrote: Surely ANY descriptive term, used by one person to describe another, is "racist " if the person so described perceives it as such (?). How can any basis for " racist terminology" exclude the listener's feelings? And, on the other hand, i f I call an African-American person a "nigger" and the person isn't offended, h ave I used "racist" terminology? Can any term be "racist" independent of the p erceptions of the person it describes? (But no talkshow host, except maybe Phi l Donahue, would ever pick up on any of this.) But if we look at a phrase/label like "meanest white person" then we aren't just refering to the person described. That person is NOT likely to be offended. However, the label generalized about a larger group. Is it not racist then because those refered to as the not-white segment of the population may not be within earshot and so aren't offended? In this case the listener's feelings aren't relevant. Lew ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 20:00:00 EDT From: Travis Kidd TKIDD[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]CLEMSON.EDU Subject: Just because...doesn't mean Hi--I am wondering whence the "just because...doesn't mean" construct originated. Is it proper English? Just in some dialects? I use it because I can never think of a more proper way to say it that is simple and sounds right. Can anyone else? (Just because I don't know if this construct is popular doesn't mean I am poor at English grammar. :) -Travis ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 19:37:39 -0700 From: Judith Rascoe boise[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]WELL.SF.CA.US Subject: Re: racist terms I think Lew Sanborne may be on the money re "-est white person". I was trying to figure out what I hear when I hear that pattern, and it does seem to imply that a "white person" is expected to be less extreme in any given behavior than an implied non-white person. It doesn't play, certainly, if you use ameliorative terms: "She was the most generous white woman in Texas" "He was the smartest white kid in Georgia" "They were the nicest white people in North Dakota". The implication gets clear, fast. ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 29 Aug 1994 to 30 Aug 1994 ************************************************ There are 2 messages totalling 40 lines in this issue. Topics of the day: 1. ADS-L Digest - 24 Aug 1994 to 25 Aug 1994 2. Query on bawd ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 30 Aug 1994 23:41:00 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" ENGDL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]MIZZOU1.BITNET Subject: Re: ADS-L Digest - 24 Aug 1994 to 25 Aug 1994 As Tom Murray almost said: Words aren't racist; people are. Still, the candidate for "racist word" must have the capability of being used as a vehicle for negative stereotyping that differentiates members of different "races" (whatever 'race' means) DMLance ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 31 Aug 1994 10:53:59 -0700 From: THOMAS L CLARK tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]NEVADA.EDU Subject: Query on bawd Given the raucous nature of some of my colleagues on this list, I suppose this is as good a place as any to post this query. Probably better than average. An elderly lady friend (former university regent, fercryingoutloud) Asks me some of the strangest questions. Here is her latest: Are the following lines from a music-hall song, and what are the missing lines, represented by ta-da-da-da-DA? This is my daughter, Sir, Can't hold her water, Sir, Whenever she laughs, Sir, she peas! Ta-da-da-da-DA, Ta-da-da-da-DA, There she goes again, Sir, Please! Cheers, Thomas L. Clark tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu ------------------------------ End of ADS-L Digest - 30 Aug 1994 to 31 Aug 1994 ************************************************ .