Date: Wed, 31 Mar 1993 21:27:13 PST From: John Baugh Subject: Re: [hw] REPLY TO 03/31/93 11:46 FROM ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET "American Dialect Society": Re: [hw] Jack: I'm glad to see your message, because it gives me an opportunity to tell you how much I'm enjoying to book on Miles. One of the biggest regrets of my life is that I never saw him perform live. And, your book arrived just as I was trying to track down some of his old recordings (to tape for my collection). So, I was impressed by your linguistics, but the Miles work is tremendous, and very worthy of the ASCAP award. Congratulations, and thanks. I'm a big fan of Miles -- an absolute genious and artist that was ahead of his time and on time at the same time . I'm off to Alabama for a conference, and glad to make contact before I leave town. Take care, and thanks so much. JB To: ADS-L[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]UGA.BITNET Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1993 11:32:00 CST From: Beth Lee Simon Subject: lexical query Is anyone familiar with _quiet_ in a limited, somewhat technical sense, as it would be used, for instance, in the following: "I didn't make an offer to buy that lot because the title isn't quiet" ? thanks, beth simon at dictionary of american regional english blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1993 21:19:20 CST From: Gerald Walton Subject: Re: [hw] On Wed, 31 Mar 1993 21:27:13 PST John Baugh said: > I'm off to Alabama for a conference.... You did a good job with your presentation at Auburn. GWW Date: Mon, 12 Apr 1993 21:16:33 -0600 From: Dan Goodman Subject: heard recently Terms I've heard recently: bleeding edge technology. Heard: A computer group -- Minnesota Micro Technical Forum -- in MPLS; members are largely computer professionals AND computer hobbyists. goyische hamentaschen (Fig Newtons). Heard 4/12/93 from Jane Yolen (fantasy and children's writer/editor), who may be the originator. If she isn't -- Ms. Yolen is Jewish, old enough to have an adult son, of immigrant parentage, raised in the NYC area. Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 11:54:00 CST From: Beth Lee Simon Subject: lexical query hi everyone. nice spring, huh? it only stops snowing long enough to flood. anyway, does anyone use _kill_ in the sense of a creek, stream, etc., other than in a proper name? thanks, beth simon at the dictionary of american regional english blsimon[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]macc.wisc.edu Date: Mon, 19 Apr 1993 17:34:12 -0400 From: "David Bergdahl (614) 593-2783" I don't use -kill- as a small stream but the minnows that live in them ever were _killies_! I was raised on southern LI in the 40's when there were brooks with fish in them and woods and all tht good stuff that got bulldozed for track houses in the 50's. Now I live in App-a-latch-cha! :-) David Bergdahl Ohio University/Athens "Gateway to West Virginia" BERGDAHL AT OUACCVMB.Bitnet-or-BERGDAHL[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]OUVAXA.CATS.OHIOU.EDU ********************************************************************** Date: Tue, 20 Apr 1993 16:41:50 EDT From: Ellen Johnson Subject: kill LAMSAS has two occurrences of 'kill' to mean simply creek. NY23B (Saratoga Co. Schuylerville) notes it is "1/2 [size of a] river". NY58B (Pittsford, Monroe Co.) comments "in Delaware", and is thus apparently reporting on usage else- where. The Schuylerville informant was 74 when interviewed in 1948 and he was a typical "folk" speaker (IA). Ellen JOhnson atlas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 15:14:33 EST From: "Betty S. Phillips" Subject: social class & surveys Can anyone suggest a simple question or two to test for social class in doing a dialect survey? (To avoid having to ask income or education level.) The current need applies to surveys done by students in an introductory linguistics class. (One suggestion that doesn't seem to work, for example, was "Do you have a TV in your living room?" on the assumption that only families without family rooms would have the TV in the living room.) Thanks. Betty Phillips English Dept. Indiana State Univ. Terre Haute, IN ejphill[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]engfac.indstate.edu Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 18:58:00 CST From: Beth Lee Simon Subject: 1st lang gender markings in English In Wednesday's NY Times, in a review of a movie, (front page, second section) Vincent Canby (I think) wrote "two male Chicanos". Interesting. If the two in question had been female, would it be "two female Chicanos"? or "two Chicanas"? Has anyone seen how this is being handled? beth simon Date: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 19:59:40 -0700 From: "Thomas L. Clark" Subject: Re: social class & surveys Your message dated: Thu, 22 Apr 1993 15:14:33 EST -------- > Can anyone suggest a simple question or two to test for social class > in doing a dialect survey? (To avoid having to ask income or > education level.) The current need applies to surveys done by > students in an introductory linguistics class. (One suggestion that > doesn't seem to work, for example, was "Do you have a TV in your > living room?" on the assumption that only families without family > rooms would have the TV in the living room.) > Thanks. > Betty Phillips > English Dept. > Indiana State Univ. > Terre Haute, IN > ejphill[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]engfac.indstate.edu ------------------------------------------------------- Hello EJP This is a fascinating question that sociolinguists will jump to answer with alacrity and absolute certainty. Before All their variety of of correct answers arrive, I will jump in with two cents' worth. In Las Vegas, amount of money, types of cars, size of house, membership in country clubs mean almost nothing in terms of social class. Each of these can vary with the same people in an amazingly short time. The type of work helps a bit, but only to separate the lowest, nonworkingclass from the working class from the lower half of the middle class (most "regularly employed and educated people"), and upper middle class (money, cars, college educated, continuous country club membership for two generations). Beyond that, we got some snobs, rock stars, CEOs, sports figgers, high roller gamblers...but we got no upper class. All this is by way of saying that my students in linguistic classes make their own determination of what class their respondents (what you call "informants") are. I've found that asking my students to determine what class each of their interviewees was, and asking them to list their reasons for the categories, told us much more about the exercise than my giving them a list of characteristics. Cheers. Thomas L. Clark English Department UNLV 89154 tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada.edu or BITnet tlc[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]nevada2 Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 09:06:45 CST From: Dennis Baron Subject: Re: 1st lang gender markings in English >Has anyone seen how this is being handled? > >beth simon On our campus a professionally printed poster is advertising Latina/o week. Dennis -- debaron[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uiuc.edu (\ 217-333-2392 \'\ fax: 217-333-4321 Dennis Baron \'\ ____________ Department of English / '| ()___________) University of Illinois \ '/ \ ~~~~~~~~~ \ 608 South Wright St. \ \ ~~~~~~~~~ \ Urbana, IL 61801 ==). \ __________\ (__) ()___________) Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 10:18:15 -0400 From: Bruce Southard Subject: social class & surveys I seem to remember reading somewhere, though the reference escapes me, that economic class correlated more closely with number of bathrooms in a person's dwelling than with any other factor. Maybe the fixtures installed therein would speak to the social status. Regards, Bruce Southard English Department, East Carolina University ensoutha[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ecuvm1.bitnet Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 10:17:03 EST From: "Betty S. Phillips" Subject: anti- etc. I have a student who wants to do a study of the different pronunciations of words like anti-, multi-, diversity [i] vs. [ai]. Does anyone know of work on this or have an impression of what the likely variable here is? We'd appreciate any pointers. Please respond directly to me: Betty PHillips ejphill[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]engfac.indstate.edu Thanks. Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 12:55:29 -0500 From: 00v0horvath%BSUVAX1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: social class & surveys Instead of (or in addition to) asking students to determine by themselves the social class of the respondents, why not have them ask directly "Which of these social classes/groups do you feel you belong to?" (and then give the respondent a brief description of social class categories they have in mind) In a 1992 article in Language in Society (I can dig up the exact references if anybody needs it) Milroy & Milroy argue (quite convincigly to me) that what really matters is how people *feel* they belong to, rather than "objective" criteria such as income, education, number of bathrooms, etc. If so, relying on respondents' self-classification should work better than anything else. Vera Horvath Ball State University Department of English 00V0HORVATH[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]BSUVC.BSU.EDU Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 11:28:39 -0700 From: letticia DEFINED Subject: Re: 1st lang gender markings in English It needs to agree...so it's 2 female chicanas....chicanos is used to encompass the whole ethnic population both male and female but is used to agree with gen der...male chicanos/female chicanas.....hombres chicanos o mujeres chicanas.... that's it.....from a Chicana-tejana sociolinguist.....Letticia Galindo. IDDLG[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]ASUACAD Date: Fri, 23 Apr 1993 19:48:59 -0600 From: Dan Goodman What gender is a tractor? What gender is a cow? Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu Date: Sun, 25 Apr 1993 18:00:39 PDT From: "John W. Du Bois " Subject: Re: social class & surveys Horvath's suggestion that respondents should self-classify is intriguing -- do you have a set of "brief descriptions of social class categories" worked out? Jack Du Bois Linguistics UCSB Santa Barbara, California 93106 dubois[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]humanitas.ucsb.edu Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 01:28:00 -0500 From: 00v0horvath%BSUVAX1.BITNET[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga.cc.uga.edu Subject: Re: social class & surveys Jack Du Bois asks if I have "a set of "brief descriptions of social class categories" worked out." No, I don't. This was just an idea. But I think it wouldn't be hard to come by such descriptions in the sociological literature. I vaguely remember having seen one that I liked; it presented "prototypical" members of social groups. Maybe respondents could be asked to pick up the "prototype" which they feel best represents their social environment. Since the original question concerned a class assignment, maybe the students could come up with some "brief descriptions" as a pre-exercise before they go out to fieldwork. At any rate, I'd like to hear what the readers of this list think about my suggestion and what kind of "brief descriptions" you would use, if any. Vera Horvath Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 08:32:14 EDT From: Bill Kretzschmar Subject: Re: social class & surveys Vera Horvath suggests that asking speakers about their social class is a good idea, following the Milroys in *LinS*. I agree, but one would also want to get the hard information about education, age, and so forth. Perception, or "feelings", about social class is indeed important information, but we should also be able to make independent judgments about social characteristics. On LAMSAS we have tried to recover information about quite a number of characteristics (not always successfully) from our records: type, generation, and cultivation judgments by the fieldworker; sex, age, education, occupation, race, residential locality type (urban/rural). We couldn't get income info. and we may eventually go back and try to get religion, parents' origin of residence, and other characteristics. One never knows what in future will suddenly seem relevant, and so it is best to get a good biography for any extensive interview. For ephemera like class projects, I would suggest creation of a simple standard framework in advance, where the important thing is universal easy application by students rather than accurate social measurement. You can always try to replicate an earlier experiment, in which case you would want to use the categories of the earlier work. There is some idea of the LW, UW, LM, UM Labovian categories at the end of his "Sex and Social Class" article in *Language Variation and Change*. Bill Kretzschmar 706-542-2246 University of Georgia FAX 706-542-2181 Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 08:20:00 CST From: Larry Davis Subject: Re: social class & surveys The first study that I know of which used self description to determine social class was Ray O'Cain's U. of Chicago diss. (c. 1969) on the speech of Charles- ton, SC. O'Cain also asked subjects to rank OTHER subjects as well and then compared these impressionistic results to those obtained using more traditional methods. I recall that the two methds complemented each other rather well. Date: Mon, 26 Apr 1993 09:57:37 EDT From: Ellen Johnson Subject: Re: anti- etc. We have in the LAMSAS files pronunciations for 'genuine' and 'iodine' that might be interesting to compare on the /I/ - /aI/ question. It's interesting that the /aI/ pron. of 'genuine', like 'Italian',is stigmatized but with 'iodine' it's the commonly accepted variant. We don't have these on computer yet, but can make copies of the list manuscripts upon request. Ellen Johnson atlas[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]uga Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1993 00:39:13 CDT From: "Donald M. Lance" Subject: Re: anti- etc. Eye-talian doesn't seem to be stigmatized these days in Missouri. It is very common in the speech of Missouri students, and when I bring up the matter none of them have ever been "corrected" for this pronunciation. At first they don't quite understand my question. Genu-wine, I suspect, retains a rustic flavor from Westerns and thus remains stigmatized. DMLance Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1993 12:38:00 EDT From: "James_C.Stalker" City born and bred response: tractor=neuter; cow=female, most of the time, sometimes used generically for bovines collectively. JCStalker Michigan State Univ. Date: Tue, 27 Apr 1993 18:51:41 -0600 From: Dan Goodman On 27 Apr 1993 12:38:00 -0400 (EDT), James_C.Stalker wrote: >City born and bred response: tractor=neuter; cow=female, most of the time, >sometimes used generically for bovines collectively. I think _some_ city-bred people would consider a tractor female -- ones used to working with certain kinds of machinery in their jobs. I don't know of any studies done of such things. As a nonprofessional, I don't know what to look for such studies under -- if anyone has information on such studies, I'd be interested. Dan Goodman dsg[AT SYMBOL GOES HERE]staff.tc.umn.edu .